New report accuses Pakistan’s ISI of backing Afghan insurgents

June 13, 2010

us soldiersAccording to a new report published by the London School of Economics, Pakistan’s Inter-Services Intelligence (ISI) agency not only funds and trains Taliban fighters in Afghanistan but is officially represented on the movement’s leadership council, giving it significant influence over operations.

The ISI has long been accused of backing the Taliban – an accusation Pakistan denies, saying this would make no sense when it is already fighting a bloody campaign against Islamist militants at home. But the report is worth reading for its wealth of detail on the perceptions held by Taliban commanders interviewed in the field. You can see the Reuters story on the report here and the full document (pdf) here.

The report, based on interviews with Taliban commanders, former senior Taliban ministers and Western and Afghan security officials, says research strongly suggested support for the Taliban was the “official policy” of the ISI. ”Pakistan appears to be playing a double-game of astonishing magnitude,” it says.  Interviews with Taliban commanders ”suggest that Pakistan continues to give extensive support to the insurgency in terms of funding, munitions and supplies.”

“These accounts were corroborated by former Taliban ministers, a Western analyst and a senior U.N. official based in Kabul, who said the Taliban largely depend on funding from the ISI and groups in Gulf countries,” the report, which was dismissed by Pakistani officials as spurious and unfounded, says.

Almost all of the Taliban commanders interviewed in the report believed the ISI was represented on the Quetta Shura, the Taliban’s supreme leadership council which Washington says is based in Pakistan. “Interviews strongly suggest that the ISI has representatives on the (Quetta) Shura, either as participants or observers, and the agency is thus involved at the highest level of the movement.”

“Pakistan’s apparent involvement in a double-game of this scale could have major geopolitical implications and could even provoke US counter-measures. However, the powerful role of the ISI, and parts of the Pakistani military, suggests that progress against the Afghan insurgency, or towards political engagement, requires their support. The only sure way to secure such cooperation is to address the fundamental causes of Pakistan’s insecurity, especially its latent and enduring conflict with India,” it says.

As discussed many times on this blog, most recently here, Pakistan is unlikely to act decisively against the Afghan Taliban without reassurances of a scaling back of India’s presence in Afghanistan.  It may have some ability to convince Afghan Taliban leaders to join peace talks by leaning on those who are based in Pakistan, or whose families live there, as and when it judges the timing is right.

But this influence does not extend to full control over the Taliban – as the book by Abdul Salam Zaeef, the Taliban’s last ambassador to Islamabad, testifies, there is little love lost between the movement and Pakistan.  The report itself quoted a political analyst in Kandahar as saying that, ‘The Taliban is obliged to accept Pakistan’s demands – it needs their support, but is not their puppet.”

I caught up with the report’s author, Matt Waldman, in London, for a brief chat to find out what other views he had picked up from his interviews with Taliban commanders in the field.

He said some, but not all, the commanders he spoke to said the ISI support was given so as to undermine Indian influence in Afghanistan. But on the whole they appeared to be relatively unaware of the big geopolitical issues that are believed to drive Pakistan’s alleged support for the Taliban. There had been no mention, for example, of some of the accusations that Pakistan levels against India, of using its presence in Afghanistan to fund separatists in the Pakistani province of Baluchistan, or of working through Afghan intelligence to support the Pakistani Taliban – allegations New Delhi denies.

Rather, the commanders were focused on driving out foreign forces from Afghanistan, restoring sharia law and obtaining justice and security.  They did not  talk about the Taliban regaining power, or about fighting for them to have the right to run particular ministries; nor indeed about the position they might seek for their leader Mullah Muhammad Omar.  ”They didn’t talk about the Taliban regaining the reins of government,” he said.

Nor was there any sign of al Qaeda being a significant influence. None expressed any affection for al Qaeda and some acknowledged its role in the Taliban’s downfall in 2001. The United States said it decided to overthrow the Taliban in 2001 after their government had refused to hand over to Washington Osama bin Laden and other al Qaeda leaders blamed for the Sept. 11 attacks. 

Waldman said those he spoke to wanted peace, but not at any cost. While he detected some reluctance to see an immediate withdrawal of all foreign forces — which could precipitate a civil war — the massive presence of troops was a major problem.  Some analysts say any withdrawal of foreign troops could lead to renewed fighting between non-Pashtuns once grouped in the former Northern Alliance and the Pashtun-dominated Taliban. Waldman however said that, “I never found any sort of hostility towards other ethnic groups.”

The commanders he spoke to wanted clean and honest government and the separation of men and women, including at work. They were happy to see girls’ education, but only up to a certain age. They were also well aware of factors running in their favour, including the unpopularity of the government and divisions in the international community about the Afghan war. “Although they are tired and war-weary, they feel a level of confidence in the eventual outcome,” he said.

He also noted that many of the factors driving the insurgency were domestic – including a sense that the government in Kabul was abusing its power through “predatory and exclusionary policies”  and a perception of aggression by foreign forces against the people of Afghanistan.  This suggested that taking the ISI out of the equation would not be enough to end the insurgency – although the report also said that any peace talks with the Afghan government would not succeed  without ISI support. “If you took the ISI out, it might make it possible to end the insurgency. But it does not end the insurgency.”

Comments

From the NYT article above (link posted by KP) one could derive the conclusion that the hammer will be coming down soon on Pakistan to reign in LeT & their ‘strategic assets’ in north waziristan.

Posted by Mortal1 | Report as abusive
 

@Mirzausman,

I did not advocate containing Paks to starve them to death, no way. You got things wrong. Even if that did happen, why are you Paks not doing anything to make a major course correction in your mentality and the way you manage your politics of religion? The way you beg for money and use it to make nukes and train terrorists and claim that you are a victim….on top of that your ISI is training Taliban and those same Taliban are butchering the NATO soldiers in Afghanistan. In other words, there is a strong indication that monetary aid from the U.S. may actually be used to killing U.S. soldiers and this, if its true, is totally unacceptable and will command the full wrath of the U.S. taxpayer, at some point in the future.

The Punjabi Raj in Pakistan is robbing most poor Paks dry of potential and living a forced lower class existence and then blame it all on the U.S., India or Israel or western powers.

One day the underprivileged will rebel against you supremiscist punjabi’s and there will be civil war in Pakistan, not a matter of if, but when.

The fattened up Army people, having robbed your coffers and used the politics of religion to keep the poor stupid and away from progress will have escape plans to leave.

Every rich punjabi will be looking for a ticket out to a western country, those same countries some of you here profess to be such racist and facist countries.

For your Rich Punjabi Paks, with computers over there, you better find more secure gated communities to live in, or find a country that will take you. The poor there may one day rise up and demand fairness and that day may not be a pretty one….

Posted by G-W | Report as abusive
 

Read the latest one on Pakistan that appears in the BBC website:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/world/south_a sia/10334914.stm

This is only the tip of the iceberg. Pakistani administration is working hand in glove with terrorist groups and the Taliban. Everything is being exposed slowly with evidence.

I already have posted a URL from NY times that links LeT to the attacks on Indians in Afghanistan.

Posted by KPSingh01 | Report as abusive
 

I did not advocate containing Paks to starve them to death, no way. You got things wrong.

>> So you did not write this:

“If we contain Pakistan, like N. Korea., Pakistanis will starve to death, it will push Pakistan on the brink of becoming like a starving African country, where people on the Pakistani side look over the border, as INdians celebrate diwali and cheer over every holiday.”

Posted by mirzausman | Report as abusive
 

@KPSingh01…..better have a look on your newspapers also

http://www.indianexpress.com/news/isi-ha s-links-with-terror-groups-to-get-intell igence-us/635056/

Posted by naughtypak | Report as abusive
 

naughtypak” :better have a look on your newspapers also”

I did read the reference you have given. That is called window washing and it does not mean anything. Americans kept lying that Pakistan did not have a nuclear bomb or that they were not working towards building one, during the war against the Soviets. They prevented anyone from leaking out the secrets in order to save their objectives. Unfortunately it was your emotional AQ Khan who made the declaration due to a fit of rage. The US was quite embarrassed. My source: Nuclear Deception by Adrian Levy and Clark.

Therefore I will not take the words of American officials and commanders when they make public statements. They have to be political in order to get their jobs done.

Did you bother to read the reference I gave? It looks like you just read the title and decided to provide a counter title. The reference I gave has been done by a journalist who is not bound by all the diplomatic BS and restrictions.

Like it or not. Behind the closed doors, tempers are flying high. Your military’s duplicity is well known. But now the Americans are finally beginning to get affected by it too. Until the Americans get the same experience as others have, not much moves in this region. Now that they know what it feels like, expect them to twist your military’s arms.

Posted by KPSingh01 | Report as abusive
 

@KPSingh
My friend I only gave the American perspective, if you think they speak lies being the major stakeholders, you have right to think so.

“Behind the closed doors, tempers are flying high”
You might be privileged enough to sit in those closed door meetings, I am not ;)

“Now that they know what it feels like, expect them to twist your military’s arms.”
That’s funny KP you are giving threats to Pakistan on American behalf, are you appointed by them or a self appointed sympathizer?

Posted by naughtypak | Report as abusive
 

naughtypak,

It doesn’t matter whether I am sitting with Americans or not. One can see all the trends and there is enough in the recent history to rely upon to expect the outcome.

If the American and UK media are beginning to sound hostile, it means the circles have turned around. I do not see sympathetic articles towards Pakistan now-a-days.

I wish the hawks in your military understand the situation and co-operate with the Americans wholeheartedly. Duplicity worked in the past because it did not affect the US and its allies much. But it is beginning to affect now and they are getting frustrated much like India did earlier. You know well the US is not India. So if your militants, sorry, military generals think they can get away with their acts this time, they are going to be in for a surprise soon.

I am not an American sympathizer. It is just that our interests and their interests in the region are coinciding for the first time. We know the US has a much larger clout in anything than anyone else. So we hope they understand our concerns by experiencing what we have experienced and realize how not to make the same mistakes again.

Posted by KPSingh01 | Report as abusive
 

Isn’t it interesting to note the squeals of the All Americans who cannot see or refuse to understand the blowback that was evident as long ago as Mark Twain’s writing in the 1800s? The propagandized US still insists they are the injured innocents abroad.
A little research will inform you that the US funded BOTH the Taliban and the Pakistani SS to remove the USSR invasive forces. Now they want to create sympathy for their own?
The Cheney/Rumsford/Kissinger mafia has no ethical or moral boundaries, and they have infected many nations, including their own.

Posted by DonrJy | Report as abusive
 

DonrJy,

The US funded the Mujahideen, not the Taliban. If you don’t know the difference, then you are plenty ignorant on the issues being discussed.

Posted by kEiThZ | Report as abusive
 

Rex Minor,

You keep suggesting that the Taliban is fighting foreign occupation. True, they are. Except they are doing it for their narrow interests (largely defined by the Pakistan ISID’s objectives). They are scarcely doing it for the benefit of the people.

I don’t buy your arguments of popular support either. Poll after poll by both Western and non-Western agencies has shown little support for the Taliban. To the extent that some support the Taliban, it’s only because they want the fighting to end. They scarcely think life under the Taliban is heavenly.

And if the Taliban are supposed to be liberators of their people, then pray tell what the Pakistani Taliban are doing? Do agree with their objectives too? After all, while they may not see eye-to-eye there certainly is a lot of kinship, overlap and ideological affinity between the two groups. So are you cheering them on as much as you are cheering the Afghan Taliban on? Are you hoping they defeat the Pakistan Army too? …a move that would likely precipitate the downfall of the Pakistani state…at least as we know it today.

I’d love your perspective as a Pakistani staying in Europe (I am guessing Germany). I don’t buy your line about being entirely unbiased one bit.

Posted by kEiThZ | Report as abusive
 

“You might be privileged enough to sit in those closed door meetings, I am not.”

I get more access than anybody on this forum, save maybe Myra. And I will say that Pakistanis should stop muttering, “Alll is Welllll.” to themselves.

Attitudes towards Pakistan behind closed doors are far less friendly than what you are seeing from their public statements. You really think the US didn’t know about the double-dealing for this long?

But Americans play for the next half century not for the next half decade. They lost Vietnam and won the Cold War. Keep that in mind.

Posted by kEiThZ | Report as abusive
 

Interesting to see the hypocrisy in geo-politics. Pakistan will fight against India to liberate Muslims in Kashmir. But Pakistan will work with China to quash Muslims who seek independence from China.

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/world  /us/China-seeks-Pak-help-to-deal-with-s eparatists-on-border/articleshow/6059822 .cms

It is very clear to me – It is not Islam, it is not about Muslims. It is just one country being hijacked by a cartel that is running the show in the region. Let me see how they deal with this situation.

Posted by KPSingh01 | Report as abusive
 

Keith:
“I get more access than anybody on this forum, save maybe Myra. And I will say that Pakistanis should stop muttering, “Alll is Welllll.” to themselves.

Attitudes towards Pakistan behind closed doors are far less friendly than what you are seeing from their public statements. You really think the US didn’t know about the double-dealing for this long?”

-Keep in mind, Pakistan would be the toughest test, all rhetoric aside after the CIA suffered its worst single loss adter Beirut in Khost on 30 Dec 2009. CIA black sites across the world are all well known now, and the CBC investigative documentary on CIA mystery flights out of Af-Pak, Morroco, secret bases in Poland, notorios rendition programs etc. Mood in Pakistan is not good either, atleast ISI will defend its turf. ISI might not have the global reach like the CIA, but in Af-Pak you better be careful who you pick the fight with. better yet stay in good terms, I read the LSE report word by word and nothing is credible, no backing up with authentic sources. ISI merely having a shadowy presence among the Taliban doesn’t neccessarily means they support them.
You decide if Pakistan is an ally or not, then seek cooperation.
CIA’s coups starting from overthrow of Mossadeq in Iran 1953, funding Nicaraguan drug lords, enforcing regime changes, clandestine activities all are well known. What is it that ISI is doing that CIA has not done before? Infact If I would be honest, CIA has been the mentor of ISI. The worst thing is when your student confronts you and does things even better.
America might win wars, but keep losing allies and will be alone one day.

Posted by Umairpk | Report as abusive
 

BTW
Just out of interest, my question to Keith is, why would you want to be hostile towards the Pakistani state, Army and Secret Service?
This is a country of 170 million, a majority Muslim nation and a nuclear weapons state. Pakistan’s stability is important and its the cohesion of the military structure that is important equally to the building of civilian institutions.
Quit playing games and get down to business. Pressure is on Pakistan to go into North Waziristan. Now our security forces are stretched thin, and there is a lack of capacity. Need to work things out.
Otherwise think tanks in the meantime can ponder on other alternatives vis-a-vis Pakistan. And let me tell you, those scenarios don’t look good. You achieve nothing by humiliating and betraying an allied nation.

Posted by Umairpk | Report as abusive
 

Umairpk,

Your countrymen should not be talking about betrayal, when they have misled everyone with their double dealing and duplicity. Pakistan has been setting things on fire and then making money helping to put out that fire. It is a quick and short way to gain more power in the region. Unfortunately, that fire is going to burn your country itself down. These things come with their calculated risks. Pakistani generals took a gamble and it did not go through. The end result is total chaos.

All this is unnecessary. But your countrymen have been driven by emotions based on hatred, paranoia, contempt and macho attitude. It has taken 60 odd years for your country to reach this state. The only thing that has been steady is this blind rage that has affected the mindset of Pakistanis, and their leaders and everything done so far has been India-centric. Your favorite general Kayani himself has declared that.

Bangladesh too is a Muslim nation. They do not seem to have this much of ego problems with India. They are not building nukes and arming themselves to the teeth. India has not meddled with them at all. There are disputes and issues that neighboring countries have at all times. But they are not equivalent to war mongering. Just look at Bangladesh and Pakistan – two Muslim countries. One has no problems being a neighbor of India. The other one has been acting like a paranoic delinquent.

There is no need for radicalization of your establishments. Such efforts need the constant fuel of hatred towards some community. That is why Keith referred to the genesis of Nazis in Germany and their eventual monstrosity. History is there to learn from and not repeat it.

Posted by KPSingh01 | Report as abusive
 

Here is some more on Pakistan’s nefarious activities:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/jun  /17/punjab-funds-extremist-terrorist-la shkar

These are not Indian sources. So long as Pakistan nurtures militancy in its belly, it will die of it eventually. This is cancer waiting to spread.

Posted by KPSingh01 | Report as abusive
 

An Indian author who prepared and documented evidence of mass graves in the Indian occupied Kashmir has said the UK together with USA can play an important role in highlighting the human rights violation in the held territory in light of her report.Dr.Angana Chatterji, co-convener, International People’s Tribunal on Human Rights and Justice in the Indian administered Kashmir, was briefing members of All Party Parliamentary Group on Kashmir under the chairmanship of Lord Nazir Ahmed at the House of Lords on Wednesday.

She said both the UK and USA being democratic countries where the human rights are held in the highest esteem must bring up this issue with the Indian Government and allow an independent and impartial inquiry into the discovery of mass graves.
Dr.Chatterji, Professor at the Department of Social and Cultural Anthropology, California Institute of Integral Studies, together with Srinagar-based lawyer Pervez Imroz founded the IPTK in 2008 and has been documenting the evidence of mass graves in various districts of held Kashmir.
The report she prepared has been titled ‘Buried Evidence’ and contains issues of disappearances, killing by police firings, fake encounters and extrajudicial killings and national security, torture, detention, and torture centres, gendered and sexualised violence, prisoners rights, rights of former militants, juvenile justice, acess to justice, landmines, commissions of inquiry and transparency and reprisal.
“The Indian Government record in IOK is quite appalling, “ she said adding that the country has failed to ratify a number of UN conventions on human rights and yet is attempting to seek a permanent membership of the UN Security Council.
The report is based on three years of research by Dr.Chatterji and Parvez Imroz. It has documented 2700 unknown, unmarked and mass graves containing 2943 bodies across 55 villages in Bandipore, Baramullaa and Kupwara districts of Kashmir.
These graveyards entombs bodies of those murdered in encounter and fake encounter killings between 1990 and 2009 and the graves include bodies of extrajudicial, summary and arbitrary executions and massacres committed by the Indian military and paramilitary forces.
“The postcolonial Indian state’s governance of Indian • administrated Kashmir requires the use of discipline and death as techniques of social control. Discipline is affected through military presence, surveillance, punishment and fear. Death is disbursed through’ extrajudicial’ means and those authorized by law.
These techniques of rule are used to kill and create fear of not just death but of murder,” she said.
The report said the conventional cementries that hold Kashmir’s dead are maintained by local people and organisations. Along side these cemeteries are other clandestine graveyards, often unarmed, unmarked.
They exist largely on community land, next of schools and homes, by the roadside and town square, in prayer grounds and forests, at the edges of fields across rural and urban space.
“Their affect on the local community is daunting. Mourning the dead is a habitual practise of dissent in Kashmir. Of the graves we investigated 2373 (87.9 per cent) were unnamed. Of these graves, 154 contained two bodies each and 23 contained more than two cadavers. Within these 23 graves the number of bodies ranged from 3 to 17,” Dr.Chatterji said.
She further said the Indian armed forces and the Jammu and Kashmir Police routinely claim that dead buried in unknown and unmarked graves to be ‘foreign militants and terrorists’. They claim that the dead were unidentified foreign or Kashmiri militants killed while infiltrating across the border areas into Kashmir or travelling from Kashmir to Pakistan to seek arms training.
Official state discourse conflates cross-border militancy with present nonviolent struggles by local Kashmiri groups for political and territorial self determination, portraying local resistance as ‘terrorist’ activity.
She said exhumation and indentification have not occured in sizable cases. The report examines 50 alleged ‘encounter’ killings by Indian security forces in numerous districts in Kashmir. Of these persons, 39 were of Muslim descent, four of Hindu descent and seven were not determined. Of these cases 49 were labelled militants/foreign insurgents by security forces. Following investigations, 47 were found killed in fake encounters and one was identifiable as a local militant.
“Mass and intensified extrajudicial killings have been part of a sustained and widespread offensive by the military and paramilitary institutions against civilians of Jammu and Kashmir. The methodical and planned use of killing and violence in Indian-administrated Kashmir constitutes crimes against humanity in the context of ongoing conflict,” Prof. Chatterji told the gathering.
She noted that the international community and institutions have not examined the supposition of crimes against humanity in the IOK and that the UN and its member states have remained ineffective in containing and halting the adverse consequences of the Indian state’s militarization in Kashmir.
She said Kashmir continues to be nuclear flashpoint in the conflict between Pakistan and India and the period between 1947 and 1987 witnessed people’s non violent struggles for the right of self-determination. The report noted that 6,67,000 military and paramilitary personnel continue to act with impunity to regulate movement, law and order. There are 671 security camps in Kashmir where torture and other brutalities have taken place.
“While the Indian Government has made repeated declarations regarding the internal demilitarization of Kashmir only cursory reductions in troops have been made, influenced by political interests and not those of human rights.”
A number of British MPs who attended the meeting expressed their ignorance about the report and said it was surprisingly that not much is known about these atrocities in the British society.Lord Nazir told the gathering that Early Day Motion was introduced in last House of Commons but to initiate a debate at least 100 MPs are required to sign on the motion.
He further said that APPGK delegation would shortly visit Azad Jammu and Kashmir and at the same time endeavour to tour the Indian part of Kashmir as well. The British MPs and other Kashmiri leaders appreciated the efforts of Dr.Chatterji and said in light of her report, greater efforts were required to bring it before the international community and hold India to account.

Posted by mirzausman | Report as abusive
 

@mirzausman,

Do you have any issues sticking to the topic or is this thread going to go downhill like the other one too?

How I long for the days when there was at least some moderation on the Reuters Blogs.

Posted by kEiThZ | Report as abusive
 

mirzausman,

This is becoming a standard round that you Pakistanis play every time. First there is this chest thumping and breast beating about Pakistan being the most valuable ally in the war on terrorism, it is a nuclear power etc. Once points are raised about its dubious activities and duplicitous history, immediately denials are raised. Persistent arguments to prove the point receive silence in response. Then someone starts about the nineteen million Indian consulates in Afghanistan. Once that is countered, you guys play victims – Pakistan is suffering
from terrorism, its military is doing everything it can, ISI is doing charity work with Red Cross and Mother Teresa, Pakistan is being burnt by the USA etc. After some time, one of you comes out and start singing the Kashmir song – mass graves, genocide, chemical poisoning, and any other imaginable claims. Once that has been countered, you guys go back to the start of the cycle again – Pakistan is mighty, it is nuclear armed, it has China as its best friend, lover in bed etc.

Can you guys come up with some other list of arguments to prove your points? Tell us something that Pakistan has done that can be considered constructive over the years. It has always been setting things on fire. Pakistan has been like a monkey gone wild with fire on its tail. The only thing your leaders have worked hard for is enriched uranium for every citizen in Pakistan. You guys do not have a proper nation on hand, but a bunch of people under the control of a cartel that calls itself a military. That is why it is constantly in conflicts. When did Pakistan exist in peace? Have you guys thought about it? The world really does not care about Pakistan. It is getting the attention that criminals get. This is not a healthy sign. Think about it

Posted by KPSingh01 | Report as abusive
 

MirzaUsman is spot on, Kashmir is the core issue, when Pakistan says it is the main issue, it means it matters. It is the Kashmir conflict, assymetric warfare between India and Pakistan and now that rivalry is openly evident in Afghanistan as well. Both countries are using Afghanistan in their cold war, India is increasing its footprint, while Pakistan is working to curtail India’s influence. A healthy discussion should include Kashmir, why is Pakistan following a policy of ‘strategic depth’ in Afghanistan? or keeping ‘assets’ for future settlement? Maybe if we have securtiy guarantees vis-a-vis India things would change.

But again, until Pakistan’s legitimate security interests are taken into account, Pakistan is accepted as a responsible nuclear power with previliges. I don’t see there would be any policy changes in Pakistan. Some call it ‘double-game’ I term it ‘safeguard national interests’.

Posted by Umairpk | Report as abusive
 

Kashmir is the core issue? Really?

So 9/11 happened because of Kashmir and that’s how NATO troops ended up in Afghanistan. In case you hadn’t noticed, it was over a decade between the end of the Cold War and 9/11. Pakistan’s Taliban proxy had all but won in all of Afghanistan.

Cut the crap and the diversionary tactics.

As for Pakistan’s ‘legitimate security interests’ nobody buys that line. It’s one thing to argue that Pakistan should have a say in what goes on in Afghanistan. Nobody disagrees with that. And to that end, NATO and the US have done as much as possible to accommodate Pakistan there, keeping in mind that there are limits to what western forces can do as guests of the Afghan government. But if Pakistan’s legitimate security interests lie in using Afghanistan as a sandbox for jihadis, then don’t be surprised if Pakistan rapidly finds itself at odds not just with the US and the West but also with China, the ‘stans (central Asia) and even Iran.

Increasingly, it’s starting to look like Pakistan is defining its strategic interests as diametrically opposed to rest of the world that wants to see a stable and prosperous Afghanistan. It’s becoming clear that Pakistan prefers chaos and misery in Afghanistan to stability there.

If Pakistanis want this so be it. It’ll haunt them when Afghanistan itself becomes a training ground for anti-Pakistan jihadis and as the rest of the world starts clamping down on Pakistan and views it as less of an ally.

Posted by kEiThZ | Report as abusive
 

KPSingh:
” Pakistan has been like a monkey gone wild with fire on its tail. The only thing your leaders have worked hard for is enriched uranium for every citizen in Pakistan. You guys do not have a proper nation on hand, but a bunch of people under the control of a cartel that calls itself a military. That is why it is constantly in conflicts. When did Pakistan exist in peace?”

KP strong words hey? and India is like a mad dog, each time it is hurt it barks but never bites, just goes away with its tail between its legs. Yes we are a nuclear power and are proud of it. Furthermore our nukes are safe with multilayered command and control systems in place and no one can breach the security or gain unauthorized access to it. We are a MNNA(Major Non- NATO Ally), have recently conclude EU-Pakistan summit, Have allies among Muslim nations and long term strategic defense ties with China. Sure we have our share of problems, but as a nation we have always pulled ourselves together and got through difficulties.

Now you tell me what constructive did India do? It spent money on atom bombs while poor farmers committed suicides. We still played catch up and build our own nukes, both nations are nuclear powers. Where is the difference? With economic reforms, stability and FATA development, putting things on the right track we have a chance to build a sustainable economy too. Don’t rant now that India is an emerging economy and power BS, I know very well the reality.

Pakistan surely stands for peace in the world, the world’s highest contributor to UN peacekeeping missions across the globe is the Pakistan Army with more than 10,000 troops currently stationed for peacekeeping operations. Its only you Indians who potray us badly, and as villains always. Yourselves you are no angels, you meddled in affairs of Sri Lanka, they hate you. You duped the Bangladeshis, today they regret the past. India is probably the only country in the world that has been to war with all its neighbours, has border disputes and issues with them.

Now i know your response, you will tell me how many call centers you have in India and how many Indians clean the floors of Microsoft and IBM. Enjoy yourselves. Don’t complain and suck it up. Lets see what you can do to tame Pakistan, and feel free to ally with any other nation against Pakistan, with your lies and deceptions. We know how to get around those pathetic tactics.

Posted by Umairpk | Report as abusive
 

Keith
Western forces are occupying powers and not guests in Afghanistan, ask them and they will tell you the truth.
Pakistan always went the extra mile to play its role as an ally, today Pakistan Army has suffered its image, people in Pakistan (general public) have been alienated by the Army and think they are fighting a war for America. So many casulaties, sacrifices.

Cut the story short, Pakistan will always be asked to do more no matter how much we go the extra mile. It would have been better if we were not allied with the west. It was the sacrifice of Pakistan and Afghanistan that eastern europe is free now. We had a joint struggle against communism, but you had lost Pakistan when you left us alone in 1989 after Soviet withdrawal of Afghanistan. Pakistan scrambled to join the Mujahideen factions to create a government of unity there. The fallout was drugs, extremism, illegal firearms, border issues and refugees. Afghan-Soviet war ruined Pakistan, and still you accuse us today. Its is just unfortunate.

You will loose Pakistan and you will loose Turkey as well. With US now accepting Israel’s position, turkey has no choice after Gaza aid ship attack to turn to Arab states and Russian dominated bloc. Its unfortunate considering Turks are the largest military force in NATO after US and an important ally of west. What about Iran? That conflict is not over yet. What about Israel’s future, Palestine. The wider question is where do you see Pakistan? I think you will loose Pakistan as an ally, and that is the way it should be. Let Pakistan allign itself with turkey, kick the yanks out from here, enter into alliances with other nations, assert itself, follow an independent foreign policy, build a sustainable economy.

Posted by Umairpk | Report as abusive
 

Keith
Just as you have complains from Pakistan, we have a long list of greviences. Today Pakistan Air Force was forced to buy Ukranian refueling tankers, joint-made PakChinese multi-role fighter aircrafts, AEW&C systems from Sweden. The allies never met our security needs, we paid for F-16 jets but never got deliveries, lack of spares grounded the fleet which was already in service. The Army also had to heavily invest in local defense production and push for defense exports in a bid to earn some revenue. The Navy was short of reconnaisance aircraft, submarines and warships, it is still a coastal Navy largely due to lack of modernization and meagre resources. Tell me one thing the allies did to enhance Pakistan’s security, give us the confidence and encourage policy shifts and ensure a long-term strategic interests vis-a-vis Pakistan.
I assure you, the current Obama adminstration, secretary Clinton are aware of the mistakes of the past, and have stated on record. Surely we are in a mess, the current situation in FATA and Afghanistan is a blow back of 1980s and activities that took place their. And one more thing forgot to mention, but you stated twice that US only funded Mujahideen not Taliban. Can you tell me who are the Haqani network based out of Afghanistan? They are same guys, Gulbudin Hekmatyar, Hizb-eIslami factions who were funded by CIA-ISI nexus during the Soviet-Afghan war.
Just accept we are in this together, I assure you the common man today also does not hate you in Pakistan. We can see policy changes, we can align our national interests, redefine our strategic paradigm. But only after we are treated as an ally.

Posted by Umairpk | Report as abusive
 

Keith:
“rest of the world that wants to see a stable and prosperous Afghanistan. It’s becoming clear that Pakistan prefers chaos and misery in Afghanistan to stability there”

-Remember that with Pakistan the stakes are even higher, a larger and nuclear armed Muslim nation. If Pakistan falls, Afghanistan will look like picnic and Johadis will be roaming around the world blowing up metropolitan cities with radio-active dispersion devices. You better keep your fingers crossed and remain assured that the Strategic Plans Division based at JS Headquarters Chaklala Garrison Rawalpindi tightly hold the key to Pakistan’s nukes. So far the command and control systems look good and are improving further so no worries.
Among all the neighbours of Afghanistan, Pakistan has suffered most because of chaos there and helped most in terms of evicting the Soviets from there, providing shelter to Afgahns in Pakistan. We have always helped with transit trade, and just to mention vital logistical support to the coalition for which i don’t see you are grateful. Pakistan would definitely like to see a stable Afghanistan and have a say in future political dispensation. It is upto the allies to give us that representation or keep us on the fence. But then why do you complain if Pakistan does its own thing? Either we are onboard or we have to think for ourselves and look for other alternatives. Its simpe.

Posted by Umairpk | Report as abusive
 

keithz,

Justice for Kashmir = Peace in South Asia

“Pak-Hindi Bhai-Bhai”

Posted by mirzausman | Report as abusive
 

@Brother Umair

Boss, they see the world like a silent-film from the 1920s. India is dressed in all white with a white horse. Pakistan is dressed in all black with a black horse. The hero can do no wrong, the villain can do no good.

India’s illogical stance towards Pakistan has more to do with the previous millenium than the current one. This is tragic. If India can forget the previous 1000 years and stop its state-sponsored terrorism in kashmir, pakistan would become an exemplary neighbor.

Posted by mirzausman | Report as abusive
 

Pakistan always went the extra mile to play its role as an ally, today Pakistan Army has suffered its image, people in Pakistan (general public) have been alienated by the Army and think they are fighting a war for America.
-umairpk

Oh please. The “We’re the aggrieved vitctim.” tag line is starting to wear of in the West.

Pakistan has gotten tons of aid. And to what effect? The US has demanded that it actually go to benefit the people. But it got diverted. When the US demanded an accounting of its aid money, the PA made it a sovereignty issue (thereby showing who really drives foreign policy in Pakistan by the way).

And no, nobody sees you as the ally who went the extra mile these days. That was the case during the Cold War maybe. But today, almost everyone sees a duplicitous ally who makes deals with folks who kill our troop.

Tell me one thing the allies did to enhance Pakistan’s security.-umairpk

Didn’t give you guys the North Korea treatment after the AQ Khan fiasco. Count yourselves lucky, you got off as lightly as you did. If it had been any other country, the consequences would have been far, far worse. Don’t think that behind the scenes other NATO countries and some US officials weren’t pushing for some devastating sanctions. Lucky for you guys, Clinton had to deal with an intern under his desk, which made him kind of distracted.

As for the other grievances about defence supplies. If your proliferation record wasn’t so horrible, you’d get more. NATO countries start worrying when weapons that are given to Pakistan are mysteriously found on captured or killed Pakistani insurgents. We’ve also tracked insurgent used weapons to specific Pakistani Ordinance Factories.

I am betting the Chinese will have similar misgivings when the stuff they gives you inevitably ends up in the hands of jihadists attacking Chinese oil workers in Sudan or ends up being used in Xinjiang.

Umair bhai, this report is the tip of the iceberg. There’s a lot more behind the scenes. Though this is the first time the issue is being raised in public. Take it as a sign that patience is wearing thin and people are starting to openly talk about what they used to whisper before.

Posted by kEiThZ | Report as abusive
 

keithz,

Justice for Kashmir = Peace in South Asia

“Pak-Hindi Bhai-Bhai”

—-

If that’s the case, why not accept the deal currently on the table. Make peace, open up the borders. Make them irrelevant so that it won’t matter to Kashmiris which side of the line they live on since they’ll have the same rights everywhere.

Why is it so important that a Pakistani flag must fly over Srinagar? Is it about peace and justice for Kashmir or is this about Pakistani territorial ambitions and grievances over “Muslim soil”?

If the Germans and the French could settle the Alsace-Lorraine (and their residents actually saw the German culture oppressed on the French side, including their language for decades after WWII – something even Kashmiris in India have not seen) and the Turks and the Greeks could settle up on the Aegean and Thrace, why is Kashmir such an intractable conflict?

Posted by kEiThZ | Report as abusive
 

-Remember that with Pakistan the stakes are even higher, a larger and nuclear armed Muslim nation. If Pakistan falls, Afghanistan will look like picnic and Johadis will be roaming around the world blowing up metropolitan cities with radio-active dispersion devices. – posted by Umairpk

So your point is?

Yes, we know the consequences of a failed Pakistani state. Pakistan is already a partially failed state. The West is living with the consequences of the Pakistani government being unable to solidly enforce its writ in a good fifth of the country.

And because we know the consequences, we are genuinely worried about the problem becoming worse. That’s why we want a stable Afghanistan. We don’t want Afghanistan to be a de-stabilizing force for Pakistan. It’s unfortunate the PA thinks that goal isn’t noble.

Posted by kEiThZ | Report as abusive
 

Pakistan would definitely like to see a stable Afghanistan and have a say in future political dispensation. It is upto the allies to give us that representation or keep us on the fence. But then why do you complain if Pakistan does its own thing? – umairpk

You are echoing what we hear from Pak officials. “Just the let the Taliban back in and it’ll all be okay.” Unfortunately that didn’t work out so well for the people in WTC 1 and WTC 2 on 9/11.

Seriously, what do Pakistanis expect? That the US will simply hand over Afghanistan on a a platter. The West is genuinely trying to foster democracy there. Though admittedly, it’s not an easy task. You can’t really teach them self-sufifficency by bossing them around. NATO has no intention to do so and even the Americans, who have no love for Karzai, would really like Afghans to take charge of their own affairs. That was the problem with the rigged election for example. If the US intervenes, it’s seen as picking the Afghan government. If it doesn’t intervene it’s seen as condoning fraud. What they really wanted was for Afghans to speak out about the election.

How then is it fair to expect the West to impose Pakistani interests on Afghanistan?…given that Afghanistan is not a US colony, despite what Pakistanis may think. You want better relations with Afghanistan? Build them yourselves. Nobody can do it for you. I’d say, cutting off the Haqqani network might get a lot of respect in Afghanistan, to start.

Posted by kEiThZ | Report as abusive
 

Keith
While Pakistan might have shown persistenyl failing symptoms, it still manages to come back from the brink. I would call it a resilient nation, and believe me our will is strong. we will build a better Pakistan.

Just want to share this press release by ISPR and read what CJSC Gen. Tariq Majeed has to say about Pakistan’s internal/external challenges, regional environment, unfolding events in Afgahnsitan.

http://www.ispr.gov.pk/front/main.asp?o= t-press_release&id=1333#pr_link1333

Posted by Umairpk | Report as abusive
 

While Pakistan might have shown persistenyl failing symptoms, it still manages to come back from the brink. I would call it a resilient nation, and believe me our will is strong. – Umairpk

The Soviets said the same thing too in their dying days.

Posted by kEiThZ | Report as abusive
 

And Umair,

Seriously we’d all have more respect for you and think of you as more intelligent if you weren’t such a Pak Army shill. Do you really need to post ISPR press releases? Would you think me bright if I started posting press releases from USCENTCOM’s public affairs page?
Are we supposed to be surprised that a Pakistani general is worried about growing Indian military might or that he thinks Pakistan is being pushed around?

That’s not news.

I am starting to doubt your level of intelligence (only 12 years olds post crap like press releases), the quality of Pakistani journalism (if the best you can find is an ISPR item) and the gullibility of Pakistani society (that they buy whatever the Army says like you do over here).

Posted by kEiThZ | Report as abusive
 

If that’s the case, why not accept the deal currently on the table. Make peace, open up the borders. Make them irrelevant so that it won’t matter to Kashmiris which side of the line they live on since they’ll have the same rights everywhere.

>> At this point, Kashmiris are saying that even if India builds road made of gold, it won’t make up for their brutality.

Why is it so important that a Pakistani flag must fly over Srinagar?

>> It need not be a Pakistani or Indian flag? How about a nation of kashmir flag?

Is it about peace and justice for Kashmir or is this about Pakistani territorial ambitions and grievances over “Muslim soil”?

>> We have no such ambitions. Pakistan did nothing as India overran junagarh, hyderabad, siachen, goa, sikkim, minicoy, nepali enclaves and bangladeshi enclaves. India has been swallowing territory not pakistan. We have only stood our ground for kashmir because we have a kinship with kashmiris.

If the Germans and the French could settle the Alsace-Lorraine (and their residents actually saw the German culture oppressed on the French side, including their language for decades after WWII – something even Kashmiris in India have not seen) and the Turks and the Greeks could settle up on the Aegean and Thrace, why is Kashmir such an intractable conflict?

>> In those conflicts, there was give-and-take. Pakistan has been much more flexible. India lives in the fantasy of “Kashmir is an integral part of India” even as kashmiris observe “black day” on India’s republic day. but Don’t listen to me. Read a Kashmiri blog of your choice.

Posted by mirzausman | Report as abusive
 

An old story: Four warriors on horses were heading towards Delhi, a fisherman on his donkey joined them. A pedestrian asked the warriors where they were heading to? Before the warriors reply the fisherman said WE five warriors are going to Delhi.

Are’nt we pretending like the fisherman?

Posted by naughtypak | Report as abusive
 

Keith
The link i posted is not a mere press release, these are words spoken by CJSC Gen. Tariq Majeed yesterday while addressing the graduation of War course participants at the National Defense University Islamabad. Gen. Tariq has rejected any breaches in Pakistan’s nuclear command and control system, set the record straight re; proliferation, highlighted the growing imbalance in conventional power in the region, India’s military posturing, cold start doctrine etc. Also he said that Pakistan must be accepted as a nuclear power, given civilian nuclear deal.
Like I stated, the allies never consider Pakistan’s security requirements, Pakistan’s internal and external challenges are complex and we are not in this situation by choice.

Posted by Umairpk | Report as abusive
 

MirzaUsman
“they see the world like a silent-film from the 1920s. India is dressed in all white with a white horse. Pakistan is dressed in all black with a black horse. The hero can do no wrong, the villain can do no good.

India’s illogical stance towards Pakistan has more to do with the previous millenium than the current one. This is tragic. If India can forget the previous 1000 years and stop its state-sponsored terrorism in kashmir, pakistan would become an exemplary neighbor.”

-Usman, I agree with you, India is the culprit, they meddled in Sri Lanka, always interfered in Bangladesh’s affairs, have disputes with China, with Pakistantheir relationsa re troubled as always. problem is, India has bigger ambitions all the time, but they are not capable of fulfiling those. For example, with a costly missile and nuclear arms race they thought India will become a regional power and subdue Pakistan. That did not happen, even if today they resolve the Kashmir dispute justly and forge good relations with Pakistan. I see no reason why Pakistan cannot have good relations with them.

Posted by Umairpk | Report as abusive
 

“The link i posted is not a mere press release, these are words spoken by CJSC Gen. Tariq Majeed yesterday while addressing the graduation of War course participants at the National Defense University Islamabad. Gen. Tariq has rejected any breaches in Pakistan’s nuclear command and control system, set the record straight re; proliferation, highlighted the growing imbalance in conventional power in the region, India’s military posturing, cold start doctrine etc. Also he said that Pakistan must be accepted as a nuclear power, given civilian nuclear deal.” – Umair

Blah blah blah. If Gen. Petraeus had given the same speech, I’d discount it to. Generals like politicians rarely go off script. He says what he’s told by his PR staff to say. The venue does not matter.

He’s selling Pakistan. That’s his job. Good on him for doing it. Doesn’t take away an announce of concern that the Allies have. For example, “setting the record straight on proliferation.” Hahaha. Let the IAEA interview AQ Khan and then the record will be set straight on proliferation. I highly doubt even the CJCS is can and will speak truthfully to matters like this.

If you can’t distinguish between PR speaking points and genuine statements, you need to get back to a classroom and pick up some critical reading skills.

“Like I stated, the allies never consider Pakistan’s security requirements, Pakistan’s internal and external challenges are complex and we are not in this situation by choice.”

Is Pakistan willing to openly publish what its security interests are in Pakistan and actively detail their dealings with the Taliban?….I thought so.

How is the West supposed to know what you want, when you say you don’t like the Taliban but then we find evidence that the PA is co-operating with them? Your allies can’t be held responsible for what they don’t know.

Posted by kEiThZ | Report as abusive
 

“At this point, Kashmiris are saying that even if India builds road made of gold, it won’t make up for their brutality.”

Are you speaking for all Kashmiris including the Hindu Pandits and the Buddhist Ladhakis, or is it only voices of the Muslims in the Valley that count?

Any solution, even one, brokered by the international community, has to undoubtedly address the concerns of all Kashmiris, that includes the minority populations and Kashmiris on the Pakistani side as well.

“It need not be a Pakistani or Indian flag? How about a nation of kashmir flag?”

Fair enough. Has Pakistan changed its stance? During recent negotiations, nowhere has independence for Azad Kashmir been suggested. Talk has only been about open borders. Would Pakistan offer to let its portion go if India was to offer a similar concession?

“We have no such ambitions. Pakistan did nothing as India overran junagarh, hyderabad, siachen, goa, sikkim, minicoy, nepali enclaves and bangladeshi enclaves. India has been swallowing territory not pakistan.”

There’s a certain Pathan in your history that would vehemently disagree that Pakistan did/does not have territorial ambitions of its own.

The reality though is that the Europeans left a mess. The hodge-podge of enclaves, exclaves, city states, etc. would have been absolutely unsustainable. It would created a mess of non-contiguous states, which would not have been nation states in any real sense of the term.

Stability in that case required some consolidation. It’s a good thing that northern India coalesced into Pakistan and the rest into modern day India.

On this point, I think what bothers Pakistanis is that the fragementation they thought would happen didn’t. India was supposed to be the hodge-podge which would have left Muslim Pakistan as the dominant state on the sub-continent. The Indians consolidated, and for the all the complaints, the Muslims who lived under the likes of the Nizam, integrated into India reasonably well. Without India falling apart, Pakistan became a second tier nation in its own region. I think it bothers Pakistanis that the pre-eminence Jinnah promised them hasn’t come to pass and is more India’s bailiwick today.

But setting history aside, WHAT DOES ANY OF THIS HAVE TO DO WITH AFGHANISTAN?

Posted by kEiThZ | Report as abusive
 

“At this point, Kashmiris are saying that even if India builds road made of gold, it won’t make up for their brutality.”

Are you speaking for all Kashmiris including the Hindu Pandits and the Buddhist Ladhakis, or is it only voices of the Muslims in the Valley that count?

Any solution, even one, brokered by the international community, has to undoubtedly address the concerns of all Kashmiris, that includes the minority populations and Kashmiris on the Pakistani side as well.

“It need not be a Pakistani or Indian flag? How about a nation of kashmir flag?”

Fair enough. Has Pakistan changed its stance? During recent negotiations, nowhere has independence for Azad Kashmir been suggested. Talk has only been about open borders. Would Pakistan offer to let its portion go if India was to offer a similar concession?

Posted by kEiThZ | Report as abusive
 

“We have no such ambitions. Pakistan did nothing as India overran junagarh, hyderabad, siachen, goa, sikkim, minicoy, nepali enclaves and bangladeshi enclaves. India has been swallowing territory not pakistan.”

There’s a certain Pathan in your history that would vehemently disagree that Pakistan did/does not have territorial ambitions of its own.

The reality though is that the Europeans left a mess. The hodge-podge of enclaves, exclaves, city states, etc. would have been absolutely unsustainable. It would created a mess of non-contiguous states, which would not have been nation states in any real sense of the term.

Stability in that case required some consolidation. It’s a good thing that northern India coalesced into Pakistan and the rest into modern day India.

On this point, I think what bothers Pakistanis is that the fragementation they thought would happen didn’t. India was supposed to be the hodge-podge which would have left Muslim Pakistan as the dominant state on the sub-continent. The Indians consolidated, and for the all the complaints, the Muslims who lived under the likes of the Nizam, integrated into India reasonably well. Without India falling apart, Pakistan became a second tier nation in its own region. I think it bothers Pakistanis that the pre-eminence Jinnah promised them hasn’t come to pass and is more India’s bailiwick today.

But setting history aside, WHAT DOES ANY OF THIS HAVE TO DO WITH AFGHANISTAN?

Posted by kEiThZ | Report as abusive
 

There’s a certain Pathan in your history that would vehemently disagree that Pakistan did/does not have territorial ambitions of its own.

>> “keith”, Which pathan would that be? Would it be one of pakistan’s head of states? Ayub Khan, Yahya Khan, Zafarullah Khan, Liaqat Ali Khan, Feroz Khan

The reality though is that the Europeans left a mess.

>> Actually the Europeans consolidated Islamic counquests of south asia, gift-wrapped it, put it on silver platter and gave you modern-day republic of india. If anything, you should show some gratitude.

The hodge-podge of enclaves, exclaves, city states, etc. would have been absolutely unsustainable. It would created a mess of non-contiguous states, which would not have been nation states in any real sense of the term.

Stability in that case required some consolidation.

>> I love these euphemisms for land-grabbing. It’s rather enjoyable how every indian unprovoked misdeed is sugar-coated, dismissed or justified.

It’s a good thing that northern India coalesced into Pakistan and the rest into modern day India.

On this point, I think what bothers Pakistanis is that the fragementation they thought would happen didn’t.

>> This is untrue.

India was supposed to be the hodge-podge which would have left Muslim Pakistan as the dominant state on the sub-continent. The Indians consolidated,

>> So consolidation is the word for hyderabad, goa, sikkhim, kashmir, siachen, junagarh, minicoy, nepal/bangladesh enclaves, forward policy?

and for the all the complaints, the Muslims who lived under the likes of the Nizam, integrated into India reasonably well. Without India falling apart, Pakistan became a second tier nation in its own region. I think it bothers Pakistanis that the pre-eminence Jinnah promised them hasn’t come to pass and is more India’s bailiwick today.

>> actually jinnah envisioned friendship, economic union and alliance with india.

Posted by mirzausman | Report as abusive
 

The conventional wisdom in India is that Pakistan is the aggressor in South Asia. Pakistan hardly has a perfect record but Indians should not throw stones before reviewing their own history. Even if Indo-Pakistan relationship is set aside for a moment as one of peculiar nature and even if Pakistan is presumed to be responsible for all the wicked behaviour, the question arises why do other countries of the region find it so difficult to forge a closer relationship with India? Why is it that India has failed to evoke trust and confidence among its neighbours to make any worthwhile collaboration impossible, including Saarc? Isn’t it time for hostilities to give way to a congenial environment among South Asian neighbours too?

•India swallowed Junagarh on the basis of majority hindu against the wishes of its nawab who had acceeded to Pakistan.
•India swallowed Hyderabad on the basis of majority hindu against the wishes of its nizam
•India swallowed Kashmir on the basis of the maharaja ‘wishes’ irrespective of the muslim majority’s wishes. The instrument of ascension was claimed to be “lost”.
•India swallowed the princely state of Bantva-Manavadar and it 26 muslim villages.
•India invaded and absorbed Goa 4,000 Portugese security with a force of 30,000 on the basis of a foreign presence on “republic of India’s” land.
•India annexed Sikkhim by formenting a coup against the Buddhist king manipulating the grievances of his subjects. The prime minister that supported India was labelled a traitor by his own people. 5000 Indian soldiers stormed a force of 243. 1 nineteen year old palace guard was killed. Sikkhim the tiny country was no more.
•India withheld Pakistan’s share of funds and resources from the very beginning of its birth. The newborn nation financed its treasury with donated silverware from citizens and funds from the Nizam of Hyderabad.
•India withheld 297 trainloads of supplies allocated to Pakistan. (3 trainloads were sent with scrap).
•India has always supported “Baluchistan liberation army” and related terror outfits.
•India rampaged through the sacred sikh golden temple, killed sikh leaders and humiliated its followers.
•India used artillery against its own Sikh people in the religious residential area of Amristar
•Indian police and para-military stood by idly as 3000+ Sikhs were murdered during the Sikh Riots.
•India government stood by idly as the destruction of Babri Masjid took place
•Indian state government of Gujrat headed by Modi committed a state-sponsored pogrom in gujrat killing 2000+ Muslims and displacing 100,000.
•India sent their military to sri lanka and massacred both the Sinhalese and the Tamils in Velvettiturai and Trincomalee
•India armed and supported Mukhti Bahini even before the situation in East Pakistan had become violent
•India invaded Siachen Glacier
•India started the nuclear arms race in 1974
•India swallowed Minicoy Islands (forgotten by the British) without any negotiation with the other dominion (pakistan)
•India current concerns for Afghanistan are so genuine that it supported the illegal, immoral and brutal Soviet invasion of Afghanistan
•India supported the Northern Alliance against the Pashtuns majority but blames Pakistan for interference
•India started the nuclear provocation by testing nuclear weapons on Pakistan’s border
•India has slaughtered 100,000 civilians in Kashmir
•India financed anti-Pakistan Northern Alliance
•India continues to stall resolutions with Bangladesh over river boundaries, hundres of enclaves.
•India border forces have killed hundreds of Bangladeshi border guards.
•India continues to fence the disputed borders with Bangladesh regardless of the Bangladeshi protests.
•India maintains contested boundary sections with Nepal including 400 sq. km over the Kalapani River.
•India continues to stall negotiations on disputed territory in Sir Creek with Pakistan
•India continues to support the Dalai Lama and instigate the Chinese
•Indians government warned: “If the Chinese will not vacate the areas occupied by her, India will have to repeat wat she did in Goa. She will certainly drive out the Chinese forces.” India initiated the Forward Policy setting up checkpoints north of the McMahon line.
•India has had a war with China due its inflexibility with border territories inherited from the British Raj.
•India maintains an army 0f 700,000 soldiers in Kashmir (50% of its total army and greater than the entire Army of neighboring Pakistan) against the civilian population of that small state which numbers less than 4 million people. ?even this horrifying imbalance of 1 soldier for every 6 Kashmiris (majority of whom are old men, women and children) has failed to suppress the freedom movement. Kashmir is under direct President’s rule since 1990, after the state legislature was dissolved (the federally appointed governor had admitted that the Kashmiri legislature had a history of rigged elections). The nature of State-sponsored terrorism is exemplified by such unbelievable laws as “The Armed Forces (J&K) Special Powers Bill (1990), which have been passed by the parliament of world’s largest “democracy”. This Bill grants authorization to members of Indian Security Forces to “fire upon or otherwise use force, even to the causing of death against any person” without fire orders. 130,000 people have been brutally murdered by the Indian Security Forces in the past 20 years and thousands more have been intimidated and terrorized. Pakistanis believe this is state-sponsored terrorism. The Indian security forces have flouted all norms of civilized conduct. Kashmiri youths have been murdered in cold blood in fake encounters and Kashmiri women of all ages were and are gang-raped in the prescence of their families. International human rights organizations and the international press has been refused entry into the State by the Indian government. They can only visit the ?These human rights organization like Amnesty International and Asia Watch constantly report of indescribably inhumane treatment meted out to Kashmiris in government run torture cells and elsewhere. ?While the world has responded to the Bosnia and Kuwait, it has so far failed to act to stop an even greater problem of abuse of human rights and mass genocide of Kashmiris by an invading army. It seems that commercial interests have taken precedence over the dignity of human life.
•India arrested the PRIME MINISTER of Kashmir in 1953
•India rejected UN proposals to keep 16000 troops until plebiscite is held.
•Indian forces have raped 9900 women in Kashmir
•India imposed an economic blockade on land-locked Nepal in 1989
•India overtly and covertly supported the insurgency against the state by LTTE, a nationalist Tamil group in the northern Jaffna region of this small island country of Sri Lanka, which kept it politically and economically destabilised for decades
•India interferes with Nepals internal affairs much to the latter’s discontent
•India massacred peaceful Kashmiri protests in Gowkadal, Maisuma and Bijbehara
•Indian Armed Forces are allowed to arrest non-violent protesters and are slapping them 2 years imprisonment under PSA laws
•India supported Shanti Bahini insurgency in the Chittagong Hill Tracts according to Bangladesh
•Indian encroached on Nepali lands and committed atrocities along the border villages of western district of Dang. These actions resulted in the displacement of more than 6000 people from their homes. Cases of rape and disappearance have been reported. This is not the first time the IBSF has encroached on Nepali territory and committed atrocities: from Jhapa in the east all the way to Darchula in the west (where the Indian military has even set up a permanent base), the pattern of border encroachment is repeated, with forceful displacement, shifting of border markers and appropriation of territory. India has already appropriated some 59,970 hectares of Nepali territory at 54 points in 21 districts. All these cases are well documented, but India has not shown any sign of taking responsibility of its excesses in a foreign land. This is not the only example of India%u2019s interference in Nepal’s sovereignty. Recently the Indian Ambassador to Nepal, Mr. Sood, interfered in the choice of Nepal’s Commander-in-Chief. By doing so, he has made it clear that Nepalese right to choose their government remains a right as long as their choice does not contradict with Indias’ vested interest in Nepal.
•In 1971, Elements of the Indian Army looted Bangladesh while the high command let it happen and may have benefited from the loot.
•India has banned Human Rights Watch and Amnesty International from Kashmir over 20 years. Recently to AI personnel were allowed into Kashmir. They are Indians! Their first course of action was to call Kashmir an integral part of India (a fact disputed by almost all countries in the world… except India).
•Indian governments have refused to sign nuclear testing and nonproliferation agreements — accelerating a nuclear arms race in South Asia. (India’s second nuclear tests in 1998 led to Pakistan’s decision to detonate its own nuclear weapons.)
•In 2008, India single-handedly foiled the last Doha round of global trade talks, an effort to nail together a global deal that almost nobody loved, but one that would have benefited developing countries most.”I reject everything,” declared Kamal Nath, then the Indian commerce and industry minister, after grueling days and sleepless nights of negotiations in Geneva in the summer of 2008.
•India also regularly refuses visas for international rights advocates. In 2003, India denied a visa to the head of Amnesty International, Irene Khan. Although no official reason was given, it was likely a punishment for Amnesty’s critical stance on the government’s handling of Hindu attacks that killed as many as 2,000 Muslims in Gujarat the previous year. Most recently, a delegation from the U.S. Commission on International Religious Freedom, a congressionally mandated body, was denied Indian visas. In the past, the commission had called attention to attacks on both Muslims and Christians in India.

Posted by mirzausman | Report as abusive
 

“keith”,
- Why is my name in double quotations? I don’t hide behind it. Reuters has my email addy and that’s really my name.

“Which pathan would that be? Would it be one of pakistan’s head of states? Ayub Khan, Yahya Khan, Zafarullah Khan, Liaqat Ali Khan, Feroz Khan”

How about Frontier Gandhi? Khan Abdul Ghaffar Khan

“Actually the Europeans consolidated Islamic counquests of south asia, gift-wrapped it, put it on silver platter and gave you modern-day republic of india. If anything, you should show some gratitude. ”

Not being Indian, I can’t be particularly grateful or ungrateful for your history.

But I stand by my assertion that the sub-continent is better off with a handful of states of contiguous states than a few dozen independent ones or a bunch of exclaves with nothing in common but religion. We all know how well that worked out for Bengalis, when they had nothing in common but religion, with the rest of Pakistan.

“I love these euphemisms for land-grabbing. It’s rather enjoyable how every indian unprovoked misdeed is sugar-coated, dismissed or justified. ”

It’s not a euphemism. Nor am I trying to sugar coat reality. Whatever the messy business of the past, would you rather have the sub-continent you have today or would you rather have the place look like post-colonial Africa?

“So consolidation is the word for hyderabad, goa, sikkhim, kashmir, siachen, junagarh, minicoy, nepal/bangladesh enclaves, forward policy?”

Yep. Just like Pakistan consolidated the Frontier, the Tribal Areas (and depending on the debate Balochistan as well). I would not consider that a bad thing (exception being the Forward policy that brought India directly into conflict with China). It created a contiguous Pakistani state and a contingous India and Bangladesh as well.

“actually jinnah envisioned friendship, economic union and alliance with india.”

…and he started off by invading neighbouring Kashmir (which if you recall was left as an independent state by the British when they left), bringing India directly into conflict.

Really though, the guy must have been delusional to think that after all that happened at partition, with a messy process that left millions dead in one of the bloodies spectacles of all time, that the Indians would harbour good will towards him.

Ultimately though, I think it was the invasion of Kashmir that pretty much cemented the view that Indians (particularly the elites) had, of him and Pakistan.

If there was no Kashmir, I think history would have played out differently and India would probably have by and large ignored Pakistan. With Pakistan doing the same thing as it gravitated more towards the Middle East. Sadly Kashmir brought these nations into conflict.

But again I ask, “WHAT DOES ANY OF THIS HAVE TO DO WITH AFGHANISTAN AND PAKISTANI CO-OPERATION WITH THE TALIBAN?

Posted by kEiThZ | Report as abusive
 

@Usman

When all of your claims would be proven false, you will run away like a sissy crying “I’m not playing” or post another spam so no point responding to your spam.

Posted by Seth09 | Report as abusive
 

^ It’s too bad Myra and the gang have all but disappeared from these parts. Moderation has really gone downhill in these threads. The spam just takes things off topic and every thread just devolves into an Indo-Pak fight on some historical grievances.

Come on Myra, come back, clamp down on the trolls, and let’s get some rousing discussions like the good ‘ol days!

Posted by kEiThZ | Report as abusive
 

It’s too bad Myra and the gang have all but disappeared from these parts. They would have clamped down on the spam and spurred on some solid and interesting debates.

Posted by kEiThZ | Report as abusive
 

@keithz, UmairPk, MirzaUsman, others

Pakistan’s core problem since partition, for the last 60 years as been the Punjabi Islamic Raj of Pakistan.

The Punjabi’s in Pak have not allowed Pakistan to become a properly managed, fully integrated, open society that would be capable of thriving.

Instead the Punjabi’s have selfishly drove the rest of Pakistani’s through the mud, to chase their own dreams of Islamic conquest of India and could not do that, so settled for wars with India, could not win those and finally settled on low-level wars with India, via proxy army Islamic Terrorism.

Within the context of these low level wars, Pakistan has managed to radicalize its own people, as well as radicalize Kashmiri’s and create many spin-off terrorist groups that are beginning to harm the U.S., Europe and the world over.

In Pakistani’s persuit of revenge against India for defending itself against Pakistani terrorism and saving millions from the 1971 Genocide, the PA overstretched itself and India successfully dismembered East Pakistan and liberated the Bengali’s from the cruel facist Punjabi rule.

It is because of this, the PA felt its own existence threatened and needed to politically entrench itself so deeply in the psyche of Pakistani’s from childhood, that mass propaganda through the madrasa system, education, almost every facet of Pakistani identity was forged with Anti-india sentiment and hatred of India in every way possible.

Until today, the Pakistani Army business model for economic survival is to do so in a parasitic manner. To run this clever business model, the PA start the fires of terrorism through its agencies and nefarious means, then begs for the weapons and money to fight those same fires that they started, but cannot accept the blame for starting those fires and casually scapegoat India or the U.S. for all such problems. Having no great source of income, Pakistan resourts to proliferating nuclear technology and proliferating terrorism (IT=Islamic Terrorism).

Average pakistani’s are caught in the crossfire as psychological victims of this propaganda and are so conditioned that they have blind rage at anything that is unPakistani and blind acceptance at anything that is Islamic. Paks do not like: Indians, Afghans, Americans, but do like anybody that does not like India or the U.S. for whatever reason.

In trying to put out its own fires, Pakistan has become bankrupt, begging from the IMF and using such funds to buy more weapons against India, as well as upgrade its nuclear program to make more bxmbs, all the while its people are starving, with uncertain futures, they live in a state of fear over their lives.

Pakistan hopes are that with any one of the fires it has started, hopefully one of these troubles that it created will be its ticket out of its global troubles and it tries to leverage these fires against its neighbours and allies to get out of its hole.

The Punjabi Raj of Pakistan has brought nothing redeeming for Pakistani’s hopes and futures, except cricket and a stolen nuclear program and an Army with an overbloated ego and opinion of its abilities. Since the Punjabi’s cannot subjugate India or Afghanistan, its Punjabi’s are resorting to subjugate those who are weaker and and easier to reach, those being the minorities being butchered and killed out of existence in the quest for a more “pure” Pakistan.

The double dealing games, excuses, financial extortion, financial begging, shame avoidance, lying, blind rage and deranged psychological mindset continue to destroy and plunder Pakistan and its image abroad as Pakistani linked terrorists continue to be created from Pakistan, without hindrance from the “authority” there.

Just recently, credible sources from the UK have suggested that the ISI, has been helping the same Taliban that has been working against and causing harm to NATO forces in Afghanistan, the same NATO alliance members who are funding the Pakistani Army with financial and military aid with U.S. taxpayer dollars, which help to fund Pak Agencies.

The world is catching on.

Posted by G-W | Report as abusive
 

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