U.S. should look at nuclear deal for Pakistan if militancy tackled-RAND report

June 21, 2010

damadola2The United States should consider offering Pakistan a civilian nuclear deal in return for a real and verifiable commitment to eradicate all militant groups operating from its territory, a new report by the RAND Corporation says.

The report, by Seth Jones and Christine Fair, echoes a criticism often levelled at Pakistan that it is only willing to tackle those militant organisations which threaten it directly, while retaining links with groups like the Afghan Taliban and the Lashkar-e-Taiba which can be used to expand its influence in Afghanistan or against India.  It argues that Washington needs to find a new mix of incentives and sanctions to convince Pakistan to abandon the use of militant groups as a foreign policy tool. 

Its suggestion that Washington – which has already agreed a civilian nuclear deal with India – consider using the offer of a nuclear agreement with Pakistan as an incentive comes as China pursues its own plans to help Islamabad’s civilian nuclear sector

“A key objective of U.S. policy must be to alter Pakistan’s strategic calculus and end its support to militant groups. Pakistan is unlikely to abandon militancy as a tool of foreign policy without a serious effort to alter its cost-benefit calculus. This requires the United States to clarify what its goals are, develop an international consensus on most (if not all) of these goals, and issue a clear demand to Pakistan regarding these objectives,” it says.

The report says that while Pakistan faces many difficulties in tackling militant groups on its border with Afghanistan or it its heartland Punjab province, ”Pakistan’s challenges are due as much to political will as to deficiencies in capability”.

Pakistan says it cannot tackle all militant groups at once and has complained about U.S. pressure to “do more” when its army is already taking heavy casualties fighting the Tehrik-e-Taliban-e-Pakistan (TTP) or Pakistani Taliban in the tribal areas bordering Afghanistan.

The report, however, is unsparing in its assessment of what it sees as Pakistan’s different attitude to different militant groups.

“At least three types of militant groups receive state support. First are those groups that Pakistan cultivated as state assets and that remain state proxies, such as Lashkar-e-Taiba and Mullah Mohammad Omar’s Taliban. In some cases, such as the 2010 capture of the Taliban’s second in command, Mullah Abdul Ghani Baradar, Pakistan has been willing to target selected members,” it says.

“A second group comprises militant groups, such as Jaish-e-Mohammad and Harkat-ul-Jihad-e-Islami, that have a history of state patronage and have long served the state in Afghanistan and India. However, unlike Lashkar-e-Taiba or the Afghan Taliban, these groups developed important fissures that emerged after 2001 in response to Pakistan’s participation in the U.S.-led war on terrorism. Elements of Jaish-e-Mohammad, Harkat-ul-Jihad-e-Islami, and other Deobandi militant groups were involved in attacks against President Musharraf, the army, ISI, and Pakistan’s civilian leadership. Some individuals from these Deobandi militant groups have also allied with the TTP. Even though elements of these groups have targeted the state, Pakistan has not opted to eliminate them. Rather, the strategy appears to be targeting only the individuals who threaten the state and deterring other group members from conducting attacks in Pakistan. These groups generally remain secure, perhaps because the state presumes that they may be useful at some point for pursuing Pakistan’s interests.”

“A third set of militants includes the TTP and elements of TNSM (Tehreek-e-Nafaz-e-Shariat-e-Mohammadi). In some cases, Pakistani government officials have provided support to militants in these organizations and negotiated peace deals … In other cases, such as in 2009 in South Waziristan and Swat, it has targeted them when they pose a threat to the Pakistan state.”

It argues that the United States must work with other countries, including China, to convince Pakistan to abandon support for all militant groups.  Among the sanctions Washington could consider if this did not happen would be to include Pakistan on its list of state sponsors of terrorism, or applying economic sanctions and visa bans on specific individuals or organisations, rather than on the country as a whole.

At the same time, it must also come up with imaginative incentives.  “Pakistan has come to view U.S. assistance as an entitlement. Therefore, offering more aid (as in the Kerry-Lugar-Berman legislation) is unlikely to persuade Pakistan to stop using militants as a tool of foreign policy.”

Among these incentives could be a criteria-based civilian nuclear deal for Pakistan, roughly modelled on the agreement with India. Under this deal, India  agreed to separate its civil and military nuclear facilities and place its civil nuclear facilities under International Atomic Energy Agency safeguards in return for nuclear cooperation with the United States. Neither India nor Pakistan, which announced they had tested nuclear weapons in 1998, have signed the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty.

“The explicit criteria could be tied to access to (disgraced Pakistani nuclear scientist) A. Q. Khan, greater visibility into Pakistan’s program, submission to safeguards, a strategic decision to abandon militancy as a tool of foreign and domestic policy, and empirically verifiable metrics in eliminating militant groups operating in and from Pakistan,” the report says.  “Such a civilian nuclear deal could achieve the goals that Kerry-Lugar-Berman could not because it would offer Pakistan benefits that it actually values and that only the United States can meaningfully confer.”

It acknowledges that a nuclear deal would not be an easy sell in either Washington or in Islamabad, much less in Delhi. 

But given President Barack Obama’s publicly stated desire to enlist China’s help in stabilising Pakistan, it will be interesting to see whether the two can find some convergence of interest – both on Pakistan’s civilian nuclear programme and on tackling militancy.

80 comments

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According to RAND “At least three types of militant groups receive state support. First are those groups that Pakistan cultivated as state assets and that remain state proxies, such as Lashkar-e-Taiba and Mullah Mohammad Omar’s Taliban”

The interesting thing to note here is the RAND corporation itself is making progress…instead of indulging in hypocrisy, making a truthful statement tha LeT is jihadi terrorist wing of pakistan army.
US was providing cover for 2 decades of pakistani terrorism in India. It has become untenable now.

Posted by Seekeroftruth | Report as abusive

LeT is so much part and parcel of Pakistan Army such that LeT cadres defended positions in the Kargil war in 1999 and assisted regular pakistani troops frm Northern Light Infantry.

Posted by Seekeroftruth | Report as abusive

Classic Christine Fair. Anybody who’s had the pleasure of meeting her and discussing this stuff in person understands exactly where she’s coming from.

She’s characterized the US-Pakistani relationship as, “All carrot. No stick.” And has called for a re-balancing of the relationship. So the offer of a bigger carrot, but one that comes with a huge stick.

And if any of you actually look at the proposal, it requires absolute verification of the dismantling of all these “non-state actors” groups. That’s a very tough proposition for Pakistan.

For that reason, I just don’t think the Pakistanis will accept such a deal. There is no way, they want the US being given a free hand to absolutely verify the dismantling of all these groups. Especially not when they have an alternative in the Chinese offer.

In this case, I think it’s the wrong carrot. The US needs to wield the economic stick in addition to the nuclear carrot. Pakistan should know that their support at the IMF and all that economic aid that’s keeping them afloat will disappear if they don’t co-operate.

The Chinese may wield the nuclear carrot, but they have shown no inclination to carry Pakistan economically like the US. It’s time for the US to make the Chinese carry th full cost of supporting Pakistan if the Chinese insist on continuing to incentivize bad behaviour from Pakistan. Let’s see how willing they are to pump billions in aid into Pakistan, while making up for the nearly $20 billion in exports that the West allows for Pakistan. Would they stick with Pakistan if it costs them $30-$40 billion annually?

Posted by kEiThZ | Report as abusive

IMO, we’ve been trying the carrot approach with Pakistan for way too long & the results are out there for all to see. The reality is that Pakistan simply won’t give up it’s sponsorship of terrorism in exchange for a civil nuclear deal or trade incentives or more aid/loans etc. It’s about time, we give an ultimatum to Pakistan, to either dismantle all the jihadi elements from it’s soil or face a barrage of long & hard sticks:

* No more IMF bailouts
* No more Aid
* Official declaration as a ‘Rogue State’
* Banning all imports from Pakistan to US/allies (which account for app 70% of Pakistan’s exports)
* No visas for Pakistanis to western countries
* Higher cooperation with India on all fronts (defense/economic/social)

Besides the above, the US/allies should excercise their leverage with China & Saudi arabia. A substantial portion of exports from China & Saudi are to the US & allies (roughly 2/3rds of their total respective exports) and they should be pressurized to let Pakistan know that if it comes to choosing sides, they won’t be choosing Pakistan. I know, all this sounds quite radical but it’s becoming apparent that Pakistan isn’t leaving the world with other options.

Posted by Mortal1 | Report as abusive

Keith
My friend you guys think you are too damn smart dont you ?What do you think Pakistan is a banana republic and Pakis are dumb stupid? First thing, by demanding a civilian nuclear deal Pakistan had made it clear it will pursue its interests in civilian nuclear technology and compete on an equal basis with India. If Indians can, Pakistan too should get a civilian nuclear deal.
Secondly, the aid you boast of, the west never offer FDI or direct investment. The best example of a country hooked on aid was Somalia under the corrupt regime of Siad Barre, back then Somali farmers were left with no incentive to grow when shiploads of food aid was coming from US. Foreign aid destroyed all hopes for the Somali economy, had US made direct investment in Somalia, generating economic activity and creating jobs, today it would not have been a failed state.
luckily, Pakistan is a huge country with human resources, climate, irrigation systems, moderate infrastructure, land for farming etc and well placed to create jobs, curb corruption and promote good governance and avoid economic destruction.
If Us cares, it must invest directly not send aid.

As for dismantling of millitant groups, Pakistan Army is working on it. Since USA created these groups to fight Soviets in Afghanistan, so bear with us. We will do it our own way, at our own pace. Hope it works well with you, if not there is nothing we can do.

China has been a strategic partner in many areas, defense, now through civilian nuclear cooperation. They offer direct investment in telecom (Zong) through construction of ports (Gwadar) and many other projects in energy sector. I support our government policy to give constitutional protection, special security measures and preferrential treatment to Chinese firms. Antying that stimulates the economy, increases activity create jobs is the way to go.

Posted by Umairpk | Report as abusive

Myra,

That is not a bad idea. Let’s take a little further. A long hard stick can still be used in the form of incentivized approach, applied incrementally, as progress is demonstrated with international monitors verifying all aspects of incremental change by Pakistan.

Sure the U.S. could give a civilian nuclear package deal, but don’t forget to include India in there. Pakistani’s need to realize that ALL indians are actually the sharing and friendly type. We will still share our roti with you, even though we may not have enough for ourselves to always eat, that is the Indian way.

Provided, the following are done, India should be asked to assist in developing Pakistan as well, Pakistan must realize religion and hate alone is not enough to sustain and feed its people, thus it must do the following:

-smash madrasa system and replace with a modern education
-remove ALL anti-India propaganda
-destroy ALL terror groups and terror training camps, no exceptions

-secularize constitution and equalize definition of all Pakistani’s as equal Pakistani’s, regardless of religion and make all legally equal, as well as women

-jail/capture/eliminate all “strategic depth” militant leaders on Pak Army and ISI, or as the rest of the world calls them “terrorists”

-remove and disband all religious and political movements associated with Salafism, Deobandism and Wahhabism

-reign in and cease activities all so called “rogue” elements of state agencies

-removal of all Kashmiri based operations to agitate India

-equalize political representation of all ethnic groups in pakistan

-removal of ALL punjabi peoples from PoK

-put Pak Army officers to work farming and growing food for their people, rather than the poor feeding them. Punjabi nation in Pakistan must get off socialize welfare and start sharing and working for a change.

-officially have Pak Army and Civilian government recognize a new era of peace, stability, security, prosperity and sign a peace treaty with India and drawdown economic footprint of Pakistani Army forward with India

In return, India could/should/would do the following:

-provide free food, farming technology, agriculture education
-financially incentivize removal of all terrorism from Pak soil, provided targets are being met with international monitoring
-provide free Educational and IT assistance at all levels to educate Pakistani society, so that they may share in India’s success
-provide free Infrastructure development
-provide greater access and discussion to water and mineral sharing
-drawdown Indian Army footprint in Kashmir and eventual removal of Army
-start talks of Kashmiri autonomy and self rule provided Pakistan removes all anti-india elements an all of its punjabi settlers there
-officially have Indian Army reconcile with PA
-engage in cultural and peaceful exchange programs
-widen trade with Pakistan for job growth there
-increase tourism and VISA’s for Pakistani’s to visit India

Posted by G-W | Report as abusive

BTW….I ask any pakistani here to tell me if there is a problem getting FREE help, if they are willing to clean up their country and rid it of terrorism and militantism.

Do any of you have comments on this list?

Posted by G-W | Report as abusive

Without getting into the details, at least can Paks and Indians have an agreement in principle, on Pakistan getting free aid for removing all militantism and terrorism?

If there is no agreement by Paks on this, then most Punjabi Paks like the Punjabi oppression as is, socialized welfare given to them by the poor and the source of Pakistan’s problems are actually the uncompromising and one-sided nature of the punjabi’s.

Posted by G-W | Report as abusive

@”Pakistan had made it clear it will pursue its interests in civilian nuclear technology and compete on an equal basis with India. If Indians can, Pakistan too should get a civilian nuclear deal” Posted by Umairpk

If you want to be treated like India, BE like India. That’s the whole point. You can prove that you’re not a reckless, irresponsible & nuclear proliferating nation by cutting off all ties with jihadi outfits, eliminating all terrorism from your soil & providing access to AQ Khan. Once you do that, you’ll be on an eaqual footing with India & will be given the same treatment.

@”Pakistan is a huge country with human resources, climate, irrigation systems, moderate infrastructure, land for farming etc and well placed to create jobs, curb corruption and promote good governance and avoid economic destruction”

A nation’s economy can’t be stimulated & jobs can’t be created simply having human & natural resources. For that, industries & supporting infrastructure have to be created & developed and the population has to be educated & equipped with the qualifications needed for those jobs. The problem with Pakistan is that over a good part of the last 2-3 decades, the only flourishing industry it has created is terrorism & instead of educating it’s population, for most, it has radicalized them. So, I don’t really understand how exactly is it “well placed to create jobs, curb corruption and promote good governance”. Care to elaborate?

@”If Us cares, it must invest directly not send aid”

So, if we replace aid with direct investments, you’ll accept the proposal & eliminate all terrorism from your soil?

@”Since USA created these groups to fight Soviets in Afghanistan, so bear with us”

So, all of the 2 dozen odd jihadi groups currently present in pakistan were created by the US to fight the Soviets, including LeT, JeM, JeV etc etc?

@”We will do it our own way, at our own pace. Hope it works well with you, if not there is nothing we can do”

And therein lies the problem!

Posted by Mortal1 | Report as abusive

Myra:

Seth Jones and Christine Fair are complicating the issue.

Perhaps they are mixing 2 issues. 1. business component: the report proposes that the USA compete with China for Pakistan nuclear deal. 2. safety component—business component is painted as a strategy to help Pakistan getting rid of terrorism of all stripes. BS.

What cannot be done with benefits given to Pakistan today cannot be done with even more incentives.

It is time to pinch on the oxygen pipe that is keeping Pakistan alive. Point is not to kill Pakistan but to convince Pakistan that this is no pretend play
(a la post-9/11 Bush forcing Mushy to make screeching halt and a U-turn in Afghanistan) and that there is good chance that can happen. If Pakistan really is an issue to the world peace, engaging China without such deals is tough but not impossible, especially because China itself is not immune to what goes inside Pakistan (Uighur issue).

@It argues that the United States must work with other countries, including China, to convince Pakistan to abandon support for all militant groups. Among the sanctions Washington could consider if this did not happen would be to include Pakistan on its list of state sponsors of terrorism, or applying economic sanctions and visa bans on specific individuals or organisations, rather than on the country as a whole.”
—Can Myra or Keith tell us what goes behind the closed doors or in corridors—-whether or not Pakistan generals/leaders admit that they support militant groups. If they have not admitted, how will they get rid of them–deal or no deal?

It will be waste of another decade when it is found oops! even the new approach does not work. Seth and Christine will be preparing yet another report.

Posted by RajeevK | Report as abusive

“Secondly, the aid you boast of, the west never offer FDI or direct investment” Posted by Umairpk

See, that’s another contradictory statement. One one hand, you want countries & companies to invest in your country but on the other hand you want to take your own sweet time in selectively fighting terrorism. It doesen’t work that way because while aid can be given as charity, investments can’t. The only reason a nation/corporation/individual will invest in your country, will be to get a decent return on their investment & with the current security-challanged enviornment in Pakistan, nobody will be willing to take that chance. So, the faster you guys eliminate all terrorism from your soil & create a conducive enviornment, the faster you’ll see a steady & increasing inflow of foreign investment.

Posted by Mortal1 | Report as abusive

Recall that I had said months ago that a rebalancing of the US-Pakistan relationship was coming. I realized that after I had a chance to talk to Christine at a conference just after she’d started working for RAND. She had laid out many of these viewpoints back then.

And her views are not to be taken lightly. She was highly respected before she worked for RAND and even more so now.

While she has strong sympathies for Pakistan and its people, folks like her remain concerned first and foremost about US national security. To that end Christine is unique in her candour and honesty about issues in the region.

When Pakistan loses friends like these, it’ll be game over for them. It’s bad news when analysts like these are publicly recommending measures that only been discussed behind closed doors till now.

Posted by kEiThZ | Report as abusive

Well!
Let me say, if you lie the same thing 20 times, it does not make it truth.
Pakistan is a nation who has hosted 3 million Afghans for 30 years… How can deprive Pakistan of having an influence on Afghanistan….?
What is credibility of US reports saying that Pakistani connections are with militants? Same is WMDs in Iraq, I suppose????
History is clear… US has invaded more than 70 countries in last 50 years or so… only nation to use Atomic bomb… India has directly intervened in Pakistan, Kashmir, Nepal. SriLanka, Bangladesh, china and you think it does not make a terrorist state?
By the way, someone offered free help to Pakistan in messages above, I would remind them of hurricane Cartina where you guys left people dying for three days… or shall I remind them of leaking gusher and four unemployed states since then or shall I say that offer help to India who is struggling to fight Nixels….
We are direct victim of US interventions in Aghanistan,,, Coz we are in rather peace before US went in there..

Posted by Besensible | Report as abusive

G-W!!!
Thanks but no thanks…
May I remind you that there are more than 30000 gun shot victims in US hospitals every year… A number that is almost comparable to Pakistan, Afghanistan, South Africa and few other places under the direct War heat…
I wonder if any one can offer help too US….
I have only one thing to say, If US had not intervened in Afghanistan and had not involved General Musharraf (US appointed dictator on Pakistan) in this way, Pakistan would not have been direct victim of AFghan revenge…
Even if US leaves Afghanistan now, I can guarantee you peace in the region within matter of weeks… But I suppose Iraqi Oil and Afghan minerals and gold/sulphur mines in Waziristan are too big temptations for US to resist…

Posted by Besensible | Report as abusive

I hope the evolving mindset has been noticed. The 13 June article about the LSE study postulated that the ISI might have been supporting the Taliban.

This RAND report takes it as a surety and makes policy recommendations from there. Pakistan’s innocence and honesty as an ally is simply not taken for granted anymore.

Posted by kEiThZ | Report as abusive

Keith:
” Pakistan’s innocence and honesty as an ally is simply not taken for granted anymore”

-No one in Pakistan is trying to potray the country as innocent or honest, big powers usually say something else in public and do something else off the record. I am not implying that Pakistan is a super power. But surely Pakistan has been dealing with super powers venturing in her neighbourhood for last three decades. Pakistan’s ability to protect its interests is evident.
And now look Gen. McChrystal commander of US and NATO forces in Afghanistan is in hot waters after Rolling Stone magazine controversy and making derogatory remarks about administration officials including Amb. Holbrooke, natl. security advisor, V.P Biden, Amb. Eikenbery. The dissent among democrat administration on Afghan policy is evident, cracks are visible.

And don’t forget, the comments by Gen. Petraus re: LSE report, he stated during the congressional hearing that you have to have contacts with bad guys in order to get intelligence on bad guys. He did not put blame on ISI.
Keith, instead of living in a fools paradise it is time you wake up and smell the coffe. You don’t change the captain of a ship in a midst of a storm. Key democrats want Gen. McChrystal fired, but the Afghan mission is doomed anyway.
Its time you take the deal, let Pakistan Army and ISI play the role of interlocutors and liase with the Taliban and provide you a face saving passage out of Afghanistan.

Do you still have any ideas or want to elaborate the ‘evolving mindset’?

Posted by Umairpk | Report as abusive

The timing of the McChrystal fiasco could hardly have been worse. Amid a flurry of bad news in Afghanistan and a sharp rise in NATO casualties, U.S. lawmakers and senior officials from NATO countries are asking increasingly sharp questions about the U.S.-led war strategy.

I don’t think there is time for them to think about Pakistan. Right now the priority should be to salvage the Afghan war and accept full support of Pakistan Army and ISI for bail out.

Posted by Umairpk | Report as abusive

As Gen. McChrystal is summoned to Washington I hope the idiot politicians don’t grill him. McChrystal has been very mindful of civilian casualties and ordered strict rules of engagement, made protection of civilian population an important task, created rules for restricting use of lethal force. He has been very good at counter-insurgency tactics as well as strategy.

Posted by Umairpk | Report as abusive

@Keithz, UmairPk,

The Rand report is but one credible source of info. But you can also goto the source in Pakistan itself to know how bad the security and politics has deteriorated in Pakistan.

Federal Govt official Rehman Malik said 44% of Pakistan’s madrassas are south Punjab Islamic Seminaries that are a part of the Taliban and Al-Qaeda including groups like Sipah-e-sahaba and JeM and require a military removal operaton. The Administration in Punjab disagrees on making any such clamp downs on the ideological nurseries in South Punjab, those same groups that killed the Ahmadi’s just recently, according to the police.

The state gov’t of Punjab, is tolerating all this and in fact very complacent and ambivalent, as Zulfiqar Khosa, adviser to Punjab’s chief minister says “There is NO organized collection of these terrorists in any district in Punjab”….what BS…

These militant and terrorist outfits operate freely in the open in S. Punjab yet the Punjabi state is looking the other way and not giving any care to what the militants do, while innocents continue to get slaughtered.

The source of large terrorism is embedded in Punjab, the Pak Fed Govt recognizes it and is powerless to force the hands of the Punjabi’s, since the Army is Punjabi run itself.

Pakistan is ripe for and in the process of brewing a large civil war on its horizon. At some point the Pak Army has to go and gut out South Punjab.

Until that happens, the weak Federal Gov’t acts like a pig in the middle between the west and Punjabi Govt and merely acts like a protective cushioning layer for the Pakistani Mafia Junta that owns Pakistan.

Unfortunately, the Punjabi Govt is appearing to be too tolerant of these groups, thereby giving the militants in S. Punjabi legitimacy to operate.

It appears that South Punjab militant groups is the ground zero for all sources of Pakistan’s “Strategic Depth” doctrine. The federal government is starting to become at odds with the Punjab government over this.

Things will get louder and louder, until there is another Army crack down to take over the Govt of Pakistan and destroy democracy once again. Either that, or the Pak Army will decide to clean up its mess and take the civil war head on, a civil war that it created in advertantly in the shadows, to weaponize post Soviet Jihadis against India.

Either way, Pakistan’s only way out of militancy is civil war. There really is not other way. If it does not happen the status quo will continue to get worse until the S. Punjab terrorist groups gain a much more political powerful foothold of Pakistan itself. Until the civil war starts, the death toll against minorities and avg Pakistani’s will continue as militants strive for control of the political landscape.

It appears distinctions between NW Jihad groups and those Punjabi Militants is breaking down, as they continue to merge and amalgamate into a formidable militant monster, entrenching itself deep into Punjab, gutting it from within, quietly strengthening and hardening itself to release at a time of its choosing. All this time, Fed govt yaps and talks with no teeth, and Punjabi govt and Pak Army looks the other way.

Pakistan’s future is politically very bleak and there will be greater calls for “rogue” state, “failed” state, labels as the west will one day force the Pak Army to clean its act up and fix Pakistan.

Posted by G-W | Report as abusive

BTW, further to my comment, if any of you thought the Lal Masjid was horrible, wait until the PA goes into S. Punjab to flush it out, there will be a Red Mosque every day there.

Posted by G-W | Report as abusive

@Umair,

What do you think of the Punjab Gov’t that enables all of this militantism and “Strategic Depth”?

Do you think the Feds like Rehman Malik are right and Punjab gov’t spokesmen like Zulfiqar Khosa are wrong or is that reversed?

Explain.

Posted by G-W | Report as abusive

@Besensible,

You seem to forget why the U.S. is in Afghanistan. You Pakistani’s put the post soviet jihadi’s to work and let them pursue their own ideological goals of jihad. You took them off your leash, looked the other way and did not pay attention and 911 happened.

The west is in Afghanistan to finish its work this time. They realize that they left the first time in a haste, without completing the job. They are now here to finish it.

It is best that Pakistan put its dogs back on a leash, or euthanize its rabid pets, before the west gets fed up and steps on Pakistani soil to do the job itself.

The U.S. taxpayers have given billions to help pakistan change and reform and fight militancy, still Pakistan based groups are allowed to operate and butcher the loved ones of the U.S. taxpayers in Afghanistan and still pak based terrorist groups threaten U.S. citizens on their own soil, as they did on 911, so you see, the fight has not even begun, the west has only started to take actions to make life safer for its citizens.

This will not continue much further and there will be repercussions for all of this double dealing and duplicity.

Posted by G-W | Report as abusive

@keithz,

In your circles, do you think the west will ever contemplate an ultimatum to the PA…cleanup S. Punjab militantism, or the west will do it, via drones?…

Posted by G-W | Report as abusive

@Keithz, others,

Here a link to another recent RAND article that suggests that China may pressure Pakistan to give up its connection to militant groups.

http://beta.thehindu.com/news/internatio nal/article481146.ece

Enjoy.

Posted by G-W | Report as abusive

@Keithz, others,

Perhaps the end game the PA want out of the west to rid itself of militantism is to hold the world hostage to militantism, until it can extort trillions in cash to rebuild Pakistan and line the pockets of every officer.

Cash and threats of annihilation seem to be the only true motivators to get any action in Pak.

Posted by G-W | Report as abusive

* No more IMF bailouts
* No more Aid
* Official declaration as a ‘Rogue State’
* Banning all imports from Pakistan to US/allies (which account for app 70% of Pakistan’s exports)
* No visas for Pakistanis to western countries
* Higher cooperation with India on all fronts (defense/economic/social)

>> Yet another genocidal fantasy by Indian ultra-nationalists. While such keyboard bravado is cute, I encourage Indians friends to read Pakistan’s nuclear doctrine then come back to reality, resolve outstanding issues and correct historical injustices.

Regards.

Posted by mirzausman | Report as abusive

You can see it in their terminology. India wants to do to Pakistan what Gujrat did to muslims in 2002.

It wants to repeat what it did to sikhs in 1984 and break pakistan’s will. This may have worked on non-practicing sikhs but it will never work on pakistanis.

Regards.

Posted by mirzausman | Report as abusive

The U.S. taxpayers have given billions to help pakistan change and reform and fight militancy, still Pakistan based groups

>>> The west has poured many more billions in aid to India (soure: OECD) and all they got in return was bad call-center service with a dubba-dubba-ding-ding accent.

Posted by mirzausman | Report as abusive

I don’t think there is time for them to think about Pakistan. Right now the priority should be to salvage the Afghan war and accept full support of Pakistan Army and ISI for bail out

>>> Bro, the people of afpak are the best/loyal friends and worst enemies. Let us help our old friend US of A again like many times before.

We helped them in cold war, we helped them with their misunderstandings with great nation of china, we help them with soviets, we rescued them in somalia, we helped them after 911. Per our culture, sacrifice for friend is no sacrifice at all.

We know the area, terrain, culture, we will take this problem for them. I think best course of action is to channel all this anger and redirect it back to where it belongs… India.

Posted by mirzausman | Report as abusive

@mirzausman,

You have proven to me enough that you are a f*cking sad, moronic & pathetic troll & always will be and henceforth I’ll make sure to ignore all your stupid comments.

Posted by Mortal1 | Report as abusive

and thats when the quality of entire thread goes south, again!! :(

Posted by Seth09 | Report as abusive

You have proven to me enough that you are a f*cking sad, moronic & pathetic troll & always will be and henceforth I’ll make sure to ignore all your stupid comments.

>> ladies and gentlemen, this outburst is but one example of india’s wrath upon smaller, weaker neighbors.

Great minds often face stiff opposition from mediocre ones. This is not to be confused by rajeev singh facing something stiff.

Posted by mirzausman | Report as abusive

Yet another genocidal fantasy by Indian ultra-nationalists. While such keyboard bravado is cute, I encourage Indians friends to read Pakistan’s nuclear doctrine then come back to reality, resolve outstanding issues and correct historical injustices.

Regards.

Posted by mirzausman

Are you suggesting that Pakistan’s unpublished nuclear doctrine calls for a first strike on India owing to the refusal of other world powers to provide aid to Pakistan?

1. That’s non-sensical.
2. You’re lying because you have no clue what Pakistan’s official doctrine is unless you are sitting in an SPD office.

Posted by kEiThZ | Report as abusive

The west has poured many more billions in aid to India (soure: OECD) and all they got in return was bad call-center service with a dubba-dubba-ding-ding accent.

Posted by mirzausman

That’s a racist statement in contravention of Reuters rules.

Posted by kEiThZ | Report as abusive

That’s a racist statement in contravention of Reuters rules

>> it’s a harmless funny taunt, where were you when the dddd’s call ALL 160 million pakistanis as terrorists/muderers etc.?

Where was you concern when you and GW wished to starve paksitan to death?

hypocrites.

Posted by mirzausman | Report as abusive

@keithz,

In your circles, do you think the west will ever contemplate an ultimatum to the PA…cleanup S. Punjab militantism, or the west will do it, via drones?…

Posted by G-W
——–

Thinking on Pakistan is evolving. There was a time, even only a few years ago when Pakistan could do no wrong. They were seen as the staunch ally sacrificing soldiers to help us fight off terrorism.

Then the stories started. Guys in the field would pick up weapons that only the PA should have had in their inventory. Operational plans were getting mysteriously leaked. The Taliban seemed to be picking up an immense amount of technical knowledge rapidly (not possible without formal training). And that’s only the stuff that’s mentioned publicly. There’s a lot more.

All that has really caused analysts in the West to question Pakistan’s commitment and sincerity. We understand that they have interests in Afghanistan. The US and NATO is certainly not insensitive to that fact. To that end, most NATO countries have liaison staff in Is’bad and Pakistanis are embedded in all the regional commands in Afghanistan and at US CENTCOM. So the idea that they are not given a fair say or visibility on what’s going on in Afghanistan is ludicrous.

But I suspect that the Pakistanis are really about compromise. It’s their way or the highway. That’s their choice if that’s the premise they are working off. But I don’t think that’s good for anybody. In the next few years, that’ll cost US/NATO victory in Afghanistan. But the strategic consequences for Pakistan will be dire.

Just look at what Myra and Seth are recommending here. Now imagine there’s no US/NATO troops next door. At that point do you even need the carrot or do you just wield the stick?

I don’t even think the return of a Republican administration in the US will save them. The simple fact of the matter is that attitudes towards Pakistan are changing wholesale in the West. That’s from top to bottom. From the guy on the street who keeps hearing “terrorist training camp in northwestern Pakistan” on his nightly news to the colonels and generals and ministers who get intelligence briefings about Haqqani training camps in the FATA.

And this shift should not be understated. We, Westerners, love the under-dog. Sometimes I think that’s partly why the US supports Israel so much. They see and Israel facing off against the rest of the Arab world. Recall that Israel has been attacked simultaneously by three nations with a combined population nearly 20 times as much. Pakistan facing off against an India with 8 times the population was seen this way.

However, now that US/NATO are on the receiving end of what the Indians saw for generations the sympathy for the “little guy” is wearing off. We are seeing troops killed by Pakistani infiltrators into Afghanistan. We are seeing Pakistan deflect domestic pressures by shipping its more radical members off to fight our troops. And we are seeing the billions in aid given to their government get diverted….and it’s not even necessarily going to the Pakistani troops fighting on the front lines!

I have no clue where this relationship is going to go. But reading the tea leaves, I can see that Pakistani policies are pushing the West (particularly the US) into a corner where they have common cause with countries like India, dramatically undermining their own alliance with the US in the future. Given this trend I think we’ll see a dramatic hardening of US attitudes towards Pakistan once US/NATO forces exit the region, with a simultaneous decisive shift and preference for relations with India.

Pakistan will become everybody’s problem child and junior partner in the region. Save maybe the Chinese. But even they have their limits. They get a free ride right now supporting Pakistan because its US money that buys Chinese weapons. Will they be so supportive when that US money dries up?

Propping up Pakistan is expensive. Because of their status as an “ally”, the West gives Pakistan preferential treatment on trade. That gives them a nearly $20 billion trade surplus with the West. This comes over and above any foreign aid, of which Pakistan is usually in the top 3 for virtually every NATO country. Add it all up, and I’d say Pakistan gets about $40 billion a year (very roughly speaking) because of it’s status as an ally. Can the Chinese pick up that much of a tab? I doubt it.

And if the Chinese don’t, then we have a real problem. Pakistan will simply devolve into another North Korea. It’ll become a useless state that survives by blackmailing the rest of the world every 6 months, catering to other terrible regimes, and getting by on a markedly lower quality of life for its people. This scenario is what Western analysts worry about.

There would be a nation with nuclear and missile technology that has a history of proliferating to survive which would now need to do the same. To top it off, they would not have the resources to combat the growing radicalization within, so international terrorism and cross-border terrorism into India and Afghanistan would grow exponentially. In sum, if they are going down, they might well try to take the rest of us with them.

If anybody wonders why RAW hasn’t paid back Pakistan in kind, this is exactly it. They are probably really, really worried about taking things too far and pushing Pakistan to the brink. Better Pakistan then some combination of Taliban, North Korea and Iran on the Western border. Sometimes the devil you know is better than the devil you don’t. The Israelis learned that the hard way after trying to bolster Hamas in the past against the PLO.

Posted by kEiThZ | Report as abusive

Where was you concern when you and GW wished to starve paksitan to death?

hypocrites.

Posted by mirzausman

—-

Go back and check. I never said Pakistan or Pakistanis should starve or be starved to death.

Posted by kEiThZ | Report as abusive

@Mirza,

Calm down your hot head jihadi rant. I never said that anybody should starve Paks. I merely stated that blockading Pakistan would starve Pakistani’s to death and nobody wants to do that, it would be cruel. Such cruelty and genocide is Pakistani Army gift to the Bengali’s, not Indians. We still share our roti and dal, despite that our stomachs are not always quite full. We are willing to share, if you are willing to unclench your fist.

Mirza, bhai sabh, it seems that you Punjabi’s don’t want to answer my question…do you agree with Rehman Malik, do you think your federal government is useless to your agenda, please clarify. Why won’t you punjabi’s submit to the will of Zardari’s federally voted democratic government and smash the S. Punjabi militant nursuries, taking over?

Also, it seems you Punjabi’s want to maintain eternal hatreds against India for ever. I even proposed an olive branch type of structure, where you can trade your suicide vests for food, damns, roads and peace. Still you fools, at least some of you are defiant, even when staring down a large black hole with no light at the end of the tunnel…very pathetic.

There is will full ignorance in Pakistani’s, a stubborn, willful ignorance of self, of truth, of their very own psychological nature. When peoples indulge in blind ignorance, they will die and go down in ignorance. Time will tell.

It seems you Punjabi’s are actually quite terrified of becoming politically weak and enemies of the rest of Pakistan.

Eithe you fix South Punjab, or it will swallow you and the only way out is civil war.

Have we hit a nerve yet?

Posted by G-W | Report as abusive

Really? you didn’t say this:

If we contain Pakistan, like N. Korea., Pakistanis will starve to death, it will push Pakistan on the brink of becoming like a starving African country, where people on the Pakistani side look over the border, as INdians celebrate diwali and cheer over every holiday.

——————————–
We will still share our roti with you, even though we may not have enough for ourselves to always eat, that is the Indian way

>> I cringed when I read this. never in history has there been such a self-congratulating, self-adulating people. We would give you our last roti, then steal your aata!

also i am not punjabi. my best friend is punjabi… and you really don’t want to hear what that brother has to say.

———————-
rajeev said

deal or no deal?

>> Rajeev, this is not men’s changing room at your dance class that you have talked about in the past. This is a forum for educated people to discuss serious topics. No shady deals involving face plants into other men’s anoos is required here.

Posted by mirzausman | Report as abusive

I love how the Indians nagged, moaned and whined at every little comment moderated by Myra. They called her an ISI agent. Now when India’s hegemony, poverty, caste system, wars, separatist movements, female infanticide, pogroms are getting exposed, they are begging to get her back!

you can’t eat your curry and keep it.

pathetic.

Posted by mirzausman | Report as abusive

This nuclear deal will certainly bring the Pak-US relationship to a new level; this will also compel the government to take a serious note of the terror organizations.

Posted by SZaman88 | Report as abusive

Well, the article is a report by the authors in the West from the RAND Corporation. India has nothing to do if Seth and Christine are making recommendations to reward or screw Pakistan. All i can do is sympathize if need be there.
_____________________________________

Here is a Pakistani blog writer who claims that he is “educated” and “serious”.

He has following evidence to back that up:

@Rajeev, this is not men’s changing room at your dance class that you have talked about in the past. This is a forum for educated people to discuss serious topics. No shady deals involving face plants into other men’s anoos is required here.”
Posted by mirzausman

@This is not to be confused by rajeev singh facing something stiff.”
Posted by mirzausman

I have noticed these comments and choose not to retaliate. Reason: they are repeat from another blog, boring, been responded and above all THIS IS FRESH BLOG.

No promises to stay silent if Reuters let them slip each time.

Pretty good standards of serious discussion by educated person!!!

Guys, this is fresh blog, let us not get provoked and ruin Myra;s hard work.

Posted by RajeevK | Report as abusive

China’s only/main use for Pakistan is to use it to undermine India. Trade between china and India is galloping ahead, this will make Pakistan less and less relevant for china.
Increase in Chinese and Saudi investments in India is a key strategy for india to deter Pak jihadi terrorist enterprise. Paks have less and less to offer to rest of the world other than terrorsts.

Posted by Seekeroftruth | Report as abusive

All you need is more Chinese visiting India. When another Mumbai happens (or there’s a hotel attack in Pakistan) and some Chinese nationals are killed, that’ll take China-Pakistan relations the way of US-Pakistan relations.

Their “all-weather” friendship has limits. If their citizens get killed by Pak jihadists Pakistan will find them.

Posted by kEiThZ | Report as abusive

I have given some thought to GW’s peace proposal. (He is in peace mode ever since I reminded him what would happen if India tried to ‘starve’ Pakistan)

I don’t like his terms, so I will give new ones.

1. Stop indian state-sponsored terrorism in kashmir
2. Free Kashmir from the shackles of indian occupation
3. Hand over terrorists
4. Hand over Rajeev for sodomy while dancing
5. Destroy caste system
6. Do something about the world’s biggest population of hungry
7. stop female infanticide (Already people like rajeev are resorting to ‘alternatives’)

For this, Pakistan will continue to be kind and generous and model neighbor.

Posted by mirzausman | Report as abusive

Indian proliferation of WMD’s is well known by the world:

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=n ewsarchive&sid=aErNiP_V4RLc

Posted by mirzausman | Report as abusive

Mirza says:

” have given some thought to GW’s peace proposal. (He is in peace mode ever since I reminded him what would happen if India tried to ’starve’ Pakistan)

I don’t like his terms, so I will give new ones.

1. Stop indian state-sponsored terrorism in kashmir
2. Free Kashmir from the shackles of indian occupation
3. Hand over terrorists
4. Hand over Rajeev for sodomy while dancing
5. Destroy caste system
6. Do something about the world’s biggest population of hungry
7. stop female infanticide (Already people like rajeev are resorting to ‘alternatives’)

For this, Pakistan will continue to be kind and generous and model neighbor.

Posted by mirzausman”

–>I can’t stop laughing at you…you are a paranoid freak. You make no sense.

You can actually get rid of the most of the problems you listed here, if you actually quit reading propaganda and outdated at that. Most of these passions are ignited in your idle mind, fused with childhood propagandas and hatred.

Pakistan will never be a kind and generous neighbour, you Pakistani’s, nothing will satisfy you until all Indians are dead or converted to Islam.

If there was not a Kashmir, it would be the plight of Indian muslims a fictitious new campaign of propaganda would be started how Indian muslims are living under occupation by Indians on Indian land.

You can keep your dreamlike rants. I can guarantee you this. The Afghan mission, if it does not work, the western alliances won’t care to rebuild or be your friend, the will do one thing, and get justice from the air with massive ordinance usage at a time of their choosing and you will be completely powerless to stop them. You watch. The double dealing duplicity of your punjabi’s, how they keep training terrorists, there will be a heavy price to pay, when you keep threatening the security of the world and your neighbours.

Currently there is no political movement in Pakistan to demand reform of State and Army agencies to turn away from terrorism. Many terrible things will befall your country…disintegration, more internal terrorism, more muslims killed by muslims, more drones strikes, more U.S. footprint on Pak soil, less jobs, more strife, greater fear for your futures and extremist take over of your entire country all leading to potential containment by the world.

Oh…BTW…not to insult gay people to your level, but I think you can find lots of these gandhus..if you goto the local madrassa…these guys often seldom have little female contact but spend almost all of their days with other men…..S. Punjab..gandhu centrale.

Lastly, your concern about female infanticide and the caste system is heart warming…you are right..in some backwards villages and in some places these things are still there, but they are disappearing in time, as Indians embrace growth. Kashmir problem is fixed easily, quit sending your proxy army terrorists to agitate the population and just leave Kashmiri’s alone.

Kashmiri’s are dying to be free from venomous Islamic Politics and that is the game Pakistan is playing for being dismembered in 1971.

The west will finish dismembering pakistan, if Af-Pak fails and Pak keeps taking their money and lying to them.

There is nothing good coming in your future in the present course.

Posted by G-W | Report as abusive

While on the topic of increasing uselessness of terroristan to rest of the world…..

http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSSGE65 J00I20100620

UPDATE1-Saudi BinLaden to buy 20 pct in India’s Maytas Infra
June 20 (Reuters) – India’s Maytas Infrastructure (MAIL.BO) said on Sunday the Saudi BinLaden Group (SBG) will buy a 20 percent stake in it for around 3 billion rupees ($106.1 million).

SBG will buy Maytas shares for 195.3 rupees each, it said, a discount of 7.5 percent to Friday’s close. The investment will be through preferential allotment of shares by Maytas, it said in a press release.

Shares of the firm had finished at 211.2 rupees in the Mumbai market on Friday.

Posted by Seekeroftruth | Report as abusive

@Mirza,

Your mentality reminds me of some deathrow inmates who are on a collision course with death, ready to be cast out of this world, but still continue to hurl defiantly unapologetic gibberish, not willing to face the truth about oneself and above all, continue unrepentant behavior before the inevitable arrives.

@Seekeroftruth…I am going to have dinner with muslim and hindu friends at a Pakistani owned restaurant this weekend,….but the advertisements all say “Fine Indian Cuisine”….you can take the meaning to a larger level here.

Posted by G-W | Report as abusive

@Mirza,

Based upon your response to my list, it seems that you will continue to be clench fisted.

I wanted to elicit your value system, based upon your responses, you would refuse FREE help to feed your people, so the Punjabi Raj can continue its geopolitical quest of strategic depth to achieve its goals, whatever those are, while you can careless that your people starve.

You would deny free help to give up terrorism so that your country and people can thrive…….I am still flabergasted by the depth willfull self-imposed ignorance.

You may be in need of a shrink or some sort of psychological assistance, there is clearly a deep disturbance from within.

It seems sometimes doubtful that Pakistani’s ever want to be open, honest and fair brokers of peace with anybody and only with those they share enemies. Such a loving heart.

Posted by G-W | Report as abusive

@BlackSabbath,

you said:

” Maybe they didn’t inform u about this at your madrasaah but India is close to developing a nuclear defense sheild which will detect if your chinese nukes ever move. What follows will turn Pakistan into Kabristan within no time. So, the next time u guys bark about using your chinese nukes made from stolen technology, keep that in mind. If you have the guts, just try it once & see the result. but untill then, like sissys, don’t thump your chests on internet blogs.”

–>If the Indian reaction to Mumbai was a good litmus test for Indian reaction, then it is safe to say, that the majority of the Indians, there is the political stomach to muster a retaliatory punishing response if there was ever any nuclear misadventure upon India.

Pakistani’s, at least the right wing punjabi mouthpieces, need to realize that India is not a aggressive neighbour, nor is India waving its nuclear pistol constantly blackmailing and threatening any country.

The source of blackmail, duplicity, and terrorism is the artificially deluded state of self-emboldenment that the Pakistani psyche has obtained from having nuclear weapons.

The nuclear weapons that Pakistan has, has served it no purpose, but to blackmail other countries and inflict terrorism. Usually countries with nuclear ambitions have a well developed trade, industry, educated people who are rising and producing and have some national sense of direct about what kind of people they want to be.

The best way to rid the world of Pakistani terrorism and fix kashmir is probably nuclear defanging of Pakistan. The nukes are a detriment to Pakistan and continue to allow the punjabi’s to waste the potential of Pakistani’s, proliferate worldwide terrorism and keep Indians hostage over issues like Kashmir and everything else.

Nuclear technology has wasted the Pakistani’s potential and driven Pakistan’s people to the brink, with the exception of the privileged few who are related to the Army officers.

India has a no first use policy, therefore Pakistan will always be the first one to use them and if it does, it cannot expect to remain as a functioning or even recoverable country, as any first fire misadventures against India would be met with a fierce, punishing and massive, nonreciprocal retaliation of the shock and awe kind. There would not be much left. India can and will recover. India’s “hard drives” are backed up in every western country, through the educated diaspora with expertise in every field, the inertial power of India is unstoppable.

I find it completely absurd and stupid when cretinous Pakistani bloggers start waving their nuclear revolver through their keyboards, expecting respect of some kind, I just roll my eyes…here we go again…another pak blogger hurling nuclear blackmail….

Posted by G-W | Report as abusive

@”I find it completely absurd and stupid when cretinous Pakistani bloggers start waving their nuclear revolver through their keyboards, expecting respect of some kind” Posted by G-W

It’s typical thug/criminal mentality. There are 2 kinds of people who acquire guns. The first kind get it for self defense & protection against criminals & the second kind are the criminals themselves, who get it to rob & kill others. The first kind never boast about their weapon or ever talk about it, while the thugs boast about it & threaten others with it all the time. It’s quite obvious as to which catagory, Pakistanis fall into. You never see an American, Chinese, Indian, Russian or a French etc thumping his chest on his country’s nukes but you see every other Pakistani doing it quite shamefully.

Posted by Mortal1 | Report as abusive

Look what India did. This is why Pakistan fights back

•India swallowed Junagarh on the basis of majority hindu against the wishes of its nawab who had acceeded to Pakistan.
•India swallowed Hyderabad on the basis of majority hindu against the wishes of its nizam
•India swallowed Kashmir on the basis of the maharaja ‘wishes’ irrespective of the muslim majority’s wishes. The instrument of ascension was claimed to be “lost”.
•India swallowed the princely state of Bantva-Manavadar and it 26 muslim villages.
•India invaded and absorbed Goa 4,000 Portugese security with a force of 30,000 on the basis of a foreign presence on “republic of India’s” land.
•India annexed Sikkhim by formenting a coup against the Buddhist king manipulating the grievances of his subjects. The prime minister that supported India was labelled a traitor by his own people. 5000 Indian soldiers stormed a force of 243. 1 nineteen year old palace guard was killed. Sikkhim the tiny country was no more.
•India withheld Pakistan’s share of funds and resources from the very beginning of its birth. The newborn nation financed its treasury with donated silverware from citizens and funds from the Nizam of Hyderabad.
•India withheld 297 trainloads of supplies allocated to Pakistan. (3 trainloads were sent with scrap).
•India has always supported “Baluchistan liberation army” and related terror outfits.
•India rampaged through the sacred sikh golden temple, killed sikh leaders and humiliated its followers.
•India used artillery against its own Sikh people in the religious residential area of Amristar
•Indian police and para-military stood by idly as 3000+ Sikhs were murdered during the Sikh Riots.
•India government stood by idly as the destruction of Babri Masjid took place
•Indian state government of Gujrat headed by Modi committed a state-sponsored pogrom in gujrat killing 2000+ Muslims and displacing 100,000.
•India sent their military to sri lanka and massacred both the Sinhalese and the Tamils in Velvettiturai and Trincomalee
•India armed and supported Mukhti Bahini even before the situation in East Pakistan had become violent
•India invaded Siachen Glacier
•India started the nuclear arms race in 1974
•India swallowed Minicoy Islands (forgotten by the British) without any negotiation with the other dominion (pakistan)
•India current concerns for Afghanistan are so genuine that it supported the illegal, immoral and brutal Soviet invasion of Afghanistan
•India supported the Northern Alliance against the Pashtuns majority but blames Pakistan for interference
•India started the nuclear provocation by testing nuclear weapons on Pakistan’s border
•India has slaughtered 100,000 civilians in Kashmir
•India financed anti-Pakistan Northern Alliance
•India continues to stall resolutions with Bangladesh over river boundaries, hundres of enclaves.
•India border forces have killed hundreds of Bangladeshi border guards.
•India continues to fence the disputed borders with Bangladesh regardless of the Bangladeshi protests.
•India maintains contested boundary sections with Nepal including 400 sq. km over the Kalapani River.
•India continues to stall negotiations on disputed territory in Sir Creek with Pakistan
•India continues to support the Dalai Lama and instigate the Chinese
•Indians government warned: “If the Chinese will not vacate the areas occupied by her, India will have to repeat wat she did in Goa. She will certainly drive out the Chinese forces.” India initiated the Forward Policy setting up checkpoints north of the McMahon line.
•India has had a war with China due its inflexibility with border territories inherited from the British Raj.
•India maintains an army 0f 700,000 soldiers in Kashmir (50% of its total army and greater than the entire Army of neighboring Pakistan) against the civilian population of that small state which numbers less than 4 million people. ?even this horrifying imbalance of 1 soldier for every 6 Kashmiris (majority of whom are old men, women and children) has failed to suppress the freedom movement. Kashmir is under direct President’s rule since 1990, after the state legislature was dissolved (the federally appointed governor had admitted that the Kashmiri legislature had a history of rigged elections). The nature of State-sponsored terrorism is exemplified by such unbelievable laws as “The Armed Forces (J&K) Special Powers Bill (1990), which have been passed by the parliament of world’s largest “democracy”. This Bill grants authorization to members of Indian Security Forces to “fire upon or otherwise use force, even to the causing of death against any person” without fire orders. 130,000 people have been brutally murdered by the Indian Security Forces in the past 20 years and thousands more have been intimidated and terrorized. Pakistanis believe this is state-sponsored terrorism. The Indian security forces have flouted all norms of civilized conduct. Kashmiri youths have been murdered in cold blood in fake encounters and Kashmiri women of all ages were and are gang-raped in the prescence of their families. International human rights organizations and the international press has been refused entry into the State by the Indian government. They can only visit the ?These human rights organization like Amnesty International and Asia Watch constantly report of indescribably inhumane treatment meted out to Kashmiris in government run torture cells and elsewhere. ?While the world has responded to the Bosnia and Kuwait, it has so far failed to act to stop an even greater problem of abuse of human rights and mass genocide of Kashmiris by an invading army. It seems that commercial interests have taken precedence over the dignity of human life.
•India arrested the PRIME MINISTER of Kashmir in 1953
•India rejected UN proposals to keep 16000 troops until plebiscite is held.
•Indian forces have raped 9900 women in Kashmir
•India imposed an economic blockade on land-locked Nepal in 1989
•India overtly and covertly supported the insurgency against the state by LTTE, a nationalist Tamil group in the northern Jaffna region of this small island country of Sri Lanka, which kept it politically and economically destabilised for decades
•India interferes with Nepals internal affairs much to the latter’s discontent
•India massacred peaceful Kashmiri protests in Gowkadal, Maisuma and Bijbehara
•Indian Armed Forces are allowed to arrest non-violent protesters and are slapping them 2 years imprisonment under PSA laws
•India supported Shanti Bahini insurgency in the Chittagong Hill Tracts according to Bangladesh
•Indian encroached on Nepali lands and committed atrocities along the border villages of western district of Dang. These actions resulted in the displacement of more than 6000 people from their homes. Cases of rape and disappearance have been reported. This is not the first time the IBSF has encroached on Nepali territory and committed atrocities: from Jhapa in the east all the way to Darchula in the west (where the Indian military has even set up a permanent base), the pattern of border encroachment is repeated, with forceful displacement, shifting of border markers and appropriation of territory. India has already appropriated some 59,970 hectares of Nepali territory at 54 points in 21 districts. All these cases are well documented, but India has not shown any sign of taking responsibility of its excesses in a foreign land. This is not the only example of India%u2019s interference in Nepal’s sovereignty. Recently the Indian Ambassador to Nepal, Mr. Sood, interfered in the choice of Nepal’s Commander-in-Chief. By doing so, he has made it clear that Nepalese right to choose their government remains a right as long as their choice does not contradict with Indias’ vested interest in Nepal.
•In 1971, Elements of the Indian Army looted Bangladesh while the high command let it happen and may have benefited from the loot.
•India has banned Human Rights Watch and Amnesty International from Kashmir over 20 years. Recently to AI personnel were allowed into Kashmir. They are Indians! Their first course of action was to call Kashmir an integral part of India (a fact disputed by almost all countries in the world… except India).
•Indian governments have refused to sign nuclear testing and nonproliferation agreements — accelerating a nuclear arms race in South Asia. (India’s second nuclear tests in 1998 led to Pakistan’s decision to detonate its own nuclear weapons.)
•In 2008, India single-handedly foiled the last Doha round of global trade talks, an effort to nail together a global deal that almost nobody loved, but one that would have benefited developing countries most.”I reject everything,” declared Kamal Nath, then the Indian commerce and industry minister, after grueling days and sleepless nights of negotiations in Geneva in the summer of 2008.
•India also regularly refuses visas for international rights advocates. In 2003, India denied a visa to the head of Amnesty International, Irene Khan. Although no official reason was given, it was likely a punishment for Amnesty’s critical stance on the government’s handling of Hindu attacks that killed as many as 2,000 Muslims in Gujarat the previous year. Most recently, a delegation from the U.S. Commission on International Religious Freedom, a congressionally mandated body, was denied Indian visas. In the past, the commission had called attention to attacks on both Muslims and Christians in India.

Posted by mirzausman | Report as abusive

More examples of Indian Hegemony

Bangladesh often finds itself on the receiving end of Indian development projects utilizing the numerous rivers that flow through the country apart from the constructing of Indian fences along the Bangladeshi border to placate Indian xenophobia resulting in ruined commerce interactions and livelihood for villagers on either side of the border. Sri Lankans, both Sinhalese and Tamils, have for long spoken of Indian imperialism, alternatively supporting both the Tamil Tigers and the Sri Lankan military, including the brutal Indian Peace Keeping Force sent to the tiny island nation in the 1980s. Indian monopoly capital has made huge inroads into all neighbouring countries in South Asia, resulting in immense resource usurpation. Tinier nations like Nepal, Maldives and Bhutan are essentially forced to act as Indian client states with the Indian military expanding and conducting operations in them as they please

“Northeast India” itself is very much a post-colonial construct, coming into existence only after Indian Independence in 1947, and the region has suffered for a long time under extremely oppressive Indian state hegemony as well as spatial discrimination in comparison to the rest of India

The hegemonic treatment meted out to the region has resulted in numerous armed nationalist and sub-nationalist insurgent movements, causing multiple conflicts with the Indian state as well as internecine battles with each other. This has resulted in harsh material conditions for the people, including human rights abuses, insecure livelihood, difficult working conditions as well as exploitation of the conflict by capital

The discrimination meted out by the Indian state also spawned massive cultural hegemony, and soon many movements, mostly of a cultural-nationalist nature, sprung up in order to counter Indian state-hegemony, as well as to ensure their own rights towards effective self-determination.

While initially non-violent in the 1940s and 50s, from the 1960s onwards many of these movements soon went on to becoming full-blown armed insurgencies, the most prominent ones being ULFA (United Liberation Front of Assam), Manipur Peoples Liberation Army (PLA), NSCN (National Socialist Council of Nagalim) and many others. The region counts around 30 major insurgent outfits along with numerous smaller ones. This has resulted in the longstanding, massive and extremely oppressive presence of the Indian military, in the name of curtailing numerous armed nationalist movements either fighting for independence or greater autonomy

As can be expected in most situations of occupation or state hegemony, the brunt is borne by the working poor. Stories of disappearances, custody killings, encounter killings all conducted by the security forces as well as people caught in the midst of the conflict are all too easy to find.

Huge chunks of the region come under draconian laws like the Armed Forces Special Protection Act or the Disturbed Areas Act, which have been in place in Manipur, Nagaland and many parts of Assam, thereby covering a significant geographical chunk of Northeast India for more than two decades. These Acts essentially give the security forces a free hand in doing what they please as long as it’s under the guise of “fighting terror”

laws was that of the custodial death of Thangjam Manorama in Manipur, where the AFSPA had been enforced for over 25 years. Witnesses say Manorama was picked up on July 11th 2004 by soldiers of the paramilitary Assam Rifles from her home on alleged charges of links with separatist rebels. The next day, her dead body was reportedly found four kilometres away from her home in the state capital Imphal, with multiple bullet wounds and signs of torture. The entire state came to a standstill under the backlash of huge protests following the brutal and tragic death.

Many insurgent outfits have had or continue to have training camps or bases in neighbouring countries like Bhutan, Burma, Bangladesh and Nepal.

India has continuously arm-twisted these nations into providing space and support for the Indian military to enter and conduct operations in flushing out insurgents without any concern for local people within those neighbouring countries. Numerous joint military operations have been conducted on India’s behest in each of the nations mentioned, including particularly brutal ones launched in Burmese and Bhutanese territory to kill ULFA militants that also resulted in massive displacement and human rights abuses upon locals in the two countries.

“India very recently bid to set such an example. India unjustifiably rebuked and scared Sri Lanka when she (Sri Lanka) expressed her desire to collect traditional, but effective, radars and other smaller equipments from Pakistan and China due to inability and failure of India-origin radars to detect air attacks of Tamil rebels.”

“Ignoring and reputing Sri Lanka’s sovereign and independent status, and violating all limits of shamelessness, M K Narayanan, India’s National Security Advisor, on May 13, 2007, thundered out like a so-called superpower declaring, “We are the big power in this region. Let us make it very clear. We strongly believe that whatever requirements the Sri Lankan government has, they should come to us. And we will give them what we think is necessary. We do not favour their going to China or Pakistan or any other country.

All this research was collected from a highly respected website called:

reformistani.wordpress.com

Posted by mirzausman | Report as abusive

I forgot one other item and I apologize for this.

India routine kills non-violent protesters in kashmir.

Once again, I apologize for that ommission.

Posted by mirzausman | Report as abusive

All this research was collected from a highly respected website called:

reformistani.wordpress.com
-Posted by mirzausman

Your personal blog filled with anti-Western and anti-India propaganda (and very little about actually reforming Pakistan by the way) hardly counts as “a highly respected website”.

Posted by kEiThZ | Report as abusive

@Seth09

I encourage you and others to report Mirza’s posts as abusive. Hopefully, Reuters will catch on sooner or later.

Posted by kEiThZ | Report as abusive

Your personal blog filled with anti-Western and anti-India propaganda (and very little about actually reforming Pakistan by the way) hardly counts as “a highly respected website”.

>> kiethz, your problem is you wish you were HALF the journalist that I am. Maybe myra and other real journalists can teach you about objective writing.

Posted by mirzausman | Report as abusive

@Keithz

I don’t think that link works.

We can do it democratic way. How about everybody posting a one-line signature with every post refusing to respond to his trash or meaningful comments, that way everybody is saved of the “burden” to respond to his trashy propaganda? Moderators may go back to previous entries and figure out the troll.

Posted by Seth09 | Report as abusive

@Myra and Reuters,

The quality of the comments section is going down fast and does reflect on your organization.

Either ban the trolls or close down the comments sections. Do it for your own sake.

Posted by kEiThZ | Report as abusive

@BlackSabbath1

You ever read some of the Urdu press in Pakistan? He’s not too far from being a journalist there. Heck, they gave Zaid Hamid a TV show. It’s like they made a South Asian country out of Fox News viewers.

Posted by kEiThZ | Report as abusive

Furthermore, a working “report as abusive” link is even against the genuine posters. You or me may not create several accounts to have our say, but you can expect anything from mentally deranged people. However, if back-end software relies on IP address instead of user credentials, then only it may work. But who knows…

Posted by Seth09 | Report as abusive

@Seth09

Far simpler solution. Don’t feed the troll.

It’s like pigeons and rats. They move on when they stop being fed.

Really, who reads his long posts any more? Just ignore him and enjoy the rest that Reuters has to offer. There’s still guys like Umair who still offer the Pakistani point of view but put it forward in an intelligent and respectful manner.

Posted by kEiThZ | Report as abusive

@BlackSabbath1

I also felt the same after using strong language recently. But then, I’d say, trust your instincts. You probably know that the guy is not even worth thrashing. You won’t kick or slap a sh*t-covered misbehaving disheveled drunkard on road, would you?

Posted by Seth09 | Report as abusive

you have taken my statements out of their proper context. most of them were in response to rajeev singh telling the world about his personal kama sutra tricks involving leatard pants, a rubber turban and other male-dancers — now tell me I am still in the wrong here.

Reuters will not ban me for the following reason:

1. There are a 1000 indians here (even on pakistani posts)
2. There are like 3 pakistanis
3. My comments are insightful, interesting, colorful, and probably brings tens of new readers to reuters every day.
4. To silence pakistanis on pakistan-related articles will not go well with a news-media conglomerate of reuters repute.
5. Indians have harassed reuters honorable writers if they so much as mention “pakistan babies don’t have horns”
6. Reuters is probably thinking about giving me an assignment in pakistan.

Posted by mirzausman | Report as abusive

“Just ignore him and enjoy the rest that Reuters has to offer. There’s still guys like Umair who still offer the Pakistani point of view but put it forward in an intelligent and respectful manner.”

I totally agree Keithz. One can learn to live with e-pollution as well.

Posted by Seth09 | Report as abusive

I totally agree with you Keithz. One can learn to live with e-pollution as well.

Posted by Seth09 | Report as abusive

@Reuters is probably thinking about giving me an assignment in pakistan.
Posted by mirzausman

Yea yea Reuters and other dozen US news agencies are hiring self declared unemployed idiots from Pakistan as there Reporter.

Is this the new AID package from USA to Pakistan ??

Posted by punjabiyaar | Report as abusive

@ Blacksabbath1

I agree with Keith & Seth. Don’t stoop down to this troll’s abysmal levels. Just ignore him like the rest of us do & he’ll disappear.

Posted by Mortal1 | Report as abusive

Alright Indian friends you promised to boycott me. Please keep your promise. With millions of pak-obsessed Indians not interrupting my geo-political genius with unbecoming behavior, I can finally proceed with the Pak point of view regarding this article.

U.S. should absolutely provide pak with a nuclear deal but without ANY pre-conditions whatsoever. The battle wounds pakistan has suffered as brothers in arms with americans against the soviets, al-qaeda & soviet “non-aligned” proxies deserves nothing less.

Pakistan joined the US led military alliances to counter communism i.e. Baghdad Pact, SEATO and CENTO. In 1954 the United States signed a Mutual Defense Assistance Agreement with Pakistan. When the Americans led the boycott against the Moscow Olympics, Pakistan was one of the countries that joined the boycott based on a united moral stand against the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan.

Pakistan provided US flight facilities for U2 surveillance flight and an intelligence base against the Soviets (1959-1968). In 1960, Kruschev called in the Pakistani ambassador in Czechoslovakia and threatened that he would have no choice but to aim ICBM towards Pakistan. Pakistan continued to provide assistance to the US until 1968.

Pakistan assisted US with backdoor diplomacy with Pakistani allies, and one of the greatest and the noble superpower of China (1970-72) as yet another counterweight against the USSR. Henry Kissinger was secretly flown from Pakistan to Beijing to meet Chairman Mao.

Nixon’s visit to China helped USA contain USSR in the cold war era and also effectively neutralised the then growing Chinese nuclear threat. Had the USA-China breakthrough not happened when it did and, instead, had USSR and China become allies in the seventies most of the world today would have been commmunist and USA would not have been the sole super power of the world.

When the soviets invaded Afghanistan, The ISI played the lead role while the CIA provided backup support in terms of funds, weapons and satellite intelligence. The Soviets began to realize that they were fighting a losing battle. Pakistan intercepted over 2000 soviet incursions and blasted several soviet jets out of the sky. Had Pakistan not engaged the Sovkiet forces within Afghanistan they would have consolidated the Afghan occupation in a few weeks and made a dash to the Arabian Sea and control the critical persian gulf.

Persian Gulf waters today would have been home to the Soviet Navy. Above all, the Soviet Union would have still been there, thriving and vibrant with total control of the world’s largest reserves of oil in the Middle East.

Pakistan completed covert operations against the Red Army in Afghanistan (1980-88)
Pakistanis fought alongside U.S. sponsored Mujahideen against the brutal red army.

Recently the war against terrorism (2001 – ??). Pakistan has helped the US capture several hundred operatives of the Al-Qaeda organization and has allowed the US to execute military operations from its land, air and sea bases. Pakistan has lost over 2000 soldiers in the war against terror on the Afghanistan border. The war next door has completely destabilized Pakistan and wrecked it’s already weak economy. The impact to the economy has been well over 20 billion dollars. Furthermore, the destabilization has non-state actors have spilled into India and the Indians are using this opportunity to blame Pakistan for terrorism.

Having failed to convince the Taliban to hand over bin Laden and other members of Al Qaeda, Pakistan provided the U.S. a number of military airports and bases for its attack on al qaeda, along with significant logistical support (70% of supplies of Nato troops are shipped through Pakistan). Since 2001, Pakistan has arrested over five hundred Al-Qaeda members and handed them over to the United States; senior U.S. officers have been lavish in their praise of Pakistani efforts in public while expressing their concern that not enough was being done in private. However, General Musharraf was strongly supported by the Bush administration – a common theme throughout Pakistan’s relations with the US has been US support of military dictators to the detriment of democracy in Pakistan.

Pakistan has lost thousands of lives since joining the U.S. war on terror in the form of both soldiers and civilians, and is currently going through a critical period. Suicide bombs are now commonplace in Pakistan, whereas they were unheard of prior to 2002. The Taliban have been resurgent in recent years in both Afghanistan and Pakistan. Hundreds of thousands of refugees have been created internally in Pakistan, as they have been forced to flee their homes as a result of fighting between Pakistani forces and the Taliban in the regions bordering Afghanistan and further in Swat. In addition, the economy is in an extremely fragile position.

Americans should understand and appreciate this assistance. For Pakistan’s sacrifices, The United States should do its utmost to stabilize Pakistan and help aid its educational institutions along with infrastructure/energy/security and help bring justice to our kinfolk in the the worlds biggest concentration camp: Indian occupied kashmir.

Posted by mirzausman | Report as abusive

Not if he bothers me a couple of times Seth but if he gets in my face everytime I walk out & barks obscenities at me & my family, while the cops are asleep despite my complaints

>> I found this run-on rant rather humorous. Looks like my poetry has made our friend darksahib all discombobulated.

Posted by mirzausman | Report as abusive

The trouble with Pakistan-U.S relationship will and always will be the sheer size of India. The U.S will have to tilt in favour of India purely because of trade and economy related reasons. Pakistan can not offer the same in the presently foreseeable future.

Pakistan is, and always has been, a rental state at all times. No arguing, America has taken “help” from Pakistanis time to time to achieve its strategic objectives. Crying about loss of civilian-soldier lives and asking more in nuclear and economic deals in the same breath proves nothing but this attitude.

Poor Pakistani soldiers and civilians (not Army) have been used as rats to fill the pockets of few in Punjabi Military Mafia. As for the real needs of common people, boogeyman India has been more than enough.

Posted by Seth09 | Report as abusive

Pakistan should seek, acquire energy from all sources. The Iranian/Pak pipeline should be undertaken immediately and converted into an IPC line. In fact, Pakistan should provide iranian natural gas to China at zero transfer cost. What good is profit when you don’t take care of friends. Pak/Saudi brotherhood is fully intact in EVERY single sphere of bilateral commerce. Finally, the turkmenistan line should also be pursued and converted into TAPC as well. China the future hyperpower will need fuel for its soon-to-be #1 economy and Pakistan will be more than happy to furnish a neighbor in need. AfPak region’s trillion dollar lithium reserves will also find an export conduit in the form of Gwadar, Karachi Bin Qasim port. Americans are more than welcome to jump into this delicious geo-strategic buffet with a nuclear deal (if it wants).

The best thing pakistan can do is bring about a reproachment between iran and saudis and facilitate china’s energy needs using its traditional relations with these countries. A mutually advantageous Sino-Pak-Saudi-Persian alliance would rock the global order from its very foundations.

Posted by mirzausman | Report as abusive

@Their “all-weather” friendship has limits. If their citizens get killed by Pak jihadists Pakistan will find them.
Posted by kEiThZ”

—Good point Keith! Red Mosque is an evidence in support of your hypothesis.

Chinese made Mushy attack the Mosque after Chinese girls working in a parlor in Pakistan were were kidnapped by Islamic fundamentalists. he was quiet until then.

Posted by RajeevK | Report as abusive

Nukes in Pakistan;s hands are much like blogs in certain “educated and “serious” journalists, such as one we see here.
It is time to remove nukes not talk about nuke technology. Nukes/nuke technology is for responsible and peaceful nations like India. Of the discussion is about giving it to Pakistan, why not give to Iran who claim that their is peaceful program. Better chance this working there.

Posted by RajeevK | Report as abusive

@kiethz, your problem is you wish you were HALF the journalist that I am. Maybe myra and other real journalists can teach you about objective writing.
Posted by mirzausman

—Jalee jalee Jalee I see the smoke……lol

Mirza: Normally a responsible person apologizes when he spells someone’s name wrong.

Posted by RajeevK | Report as abusive

@The best thing pakistan can do is bring about a reproachment between iran and saudis and facilitate china’s energy needs using its traditional relations with these countries. A mutually advantageous Sino-Pak-Saudi-Persian alliance would rock the global order from its very foundations.
Posted by mirzausman

—So here we have a responsible internet blog journalist from Pakistan Mirza who at one hand is asking for unconditional USA help by saying “U.S. should absolutely provide pak with a nuclear deal but without ANY pre-conditions whatsoever.”

At the same time he is looking to “shake the the global order from its very foundations.”

Wow!

Posted by RajeevK | Report as abusive

@RajeevK,

Mirza has the kind of Pakistani mentality that on one hand, he wants the doctor to help him heal, on the other hand, when the doctor is busy and turns his head away, he will steal his wallet, his belongings and plot to hurt or steal from the every hand that just healed and fed him. This is current Pakistani mentality with the U.S. the patient keeps stealing and plotting to kill the doctor, while it claims to keep being a victim. This is the mentality of a common thief or looter.

OH….BTW…Pakistan’s great friend China just busted an major Islamic terror cell…

http://www.adelaidenow.com.au/news/break ing-news/china-busts-xinjiang-terror-cel l-on-eve-of-uighur-riot-anniversary/stor y-e6frea7u-1225883914447

I know I won’t see any Pakistani’s condemning China for busting Islamic terror cells, but if India does something like, this, Pakistani’s will call it Islamic oppression.

It seems that China has little tolerance for militantism. India is just too darn nice for its own good, perhaps Indians can learn to be more ruthless, vile and cunning like the Chinese, if Indians do become like the Chinese, Pakistan will have to watch how it steps.

Posted by G-W | Report as abusive

@Mirza,

Take your verbal diarrhea elsewhere. You are not welcome anymore here.

Posted by G-W | Report as abusive

Canada just granted a nuclear deal to India by way. And that’s an important one given our CANDU technology and large uranium reserves.

Posted by kEiThZ | Report as abusive