Pakistan: Now or Never?
Perspectives on Pakistan
Kashmir protests: another tragedy of timing
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Another three people have been killed in Kashmir in the biggest anti-India demonstrations in two years, bringing the death toll to at least 14 in the last three weeks. You can see some video of the protests in the Kashmiri capital Srinagar here – please watch it and remember that only a few years ago peace had returned to the streets of Srinagar after more than a decade of violence.
While Indian Home Minister Palaniappan Chidambaram has suggested the violence is being whipped up by the Pakistan-based Lashkar-e-Taiba, our correspondent in Srinagar says that many local Kashmiris believe the protests are largely spontaneous.
If that is the case, it is a tragedy of timing. As discussed nearly two years ago on this blog, Kashmir has an entire generation of young people who have grown up knowing only what it is to live in the midst of an insurgency. Then, after India and Pakistan re-opened a formal peace process in 2004, violence began to drop dramatically (something that has usually gone unacknowledged by Delhi but was obvious to anyone who regularly visited Kashmir).
The sense you picked up was of a shift away from what was at most tacit tolerance for Pakistan-backed militant groups (anyone who questions this should first read Basharat Peer’s Curfewed Night) into a belief in peaceful protests, led by the younger generation. It is that younger generation who are throwing stones today, and seeing their own being killed. That is what makes the latest round of violence in Kashmir so dangerous. If the youth of Kashmir are radicalised anew, as happened when an earlier generation protested against Indian rule in 1989, the cycle of rage begins again.
One of the most telling comments in the latest round of violence in Kashmir came from separatist leader Mirwaiz Omar Farouk, when he said that the protests were not about Muslim Kashmir vs Hindu India. He would not have had to say that before – the Kashmir separatist revolt at the start was always more about nationhood than religion. That he now has to deny the communal undertones highlights how far these have grown.
The latest protests also come as India and Pakistan have begun a tentative attempt at peace-making after a long diplomatic limbo following the November 2008 attack on Mumbai. Their foreign ministers are due to meet on July 15 to take the process forward. Both have an interest in trying to reduce tensions, if nothing else but because the uncertainty over U.S. policy in Afghanistan threatens new instability in the region. Yet neither country will find it politically easy to accommodate each other if Kashmir is going up in flames.
The protests in Kashmir also coincide with some fresh soul-searching in Pakistan over the role of militant groups – some of whom were once nurtured to fight India in Kashmir – following last weeks suicide bombing of one of the country’s most popular Sufi shrines in Lahore. A perception of “Indian oppression” against fellow Muslims in Kashmir has always fed into popular support for militants fighting for its “liberation” – so in another tragedy of timing, the crackdown in Srinagar is likely to make it harder for those voices within Pakistan who want to win backing against Islamist militant groups.
Anyone who has ever studied the history of India and Pakistan – right back to pre-partition days – will know that their tortuous relationship has been based on misunderstandings and bad timing. And Kashmir has always been caught in the middle. Yet even the most optimistic cannot resist the impression that the regional environment is worsening.
As one person commented on my last post – albeit in a different context about the relationship between India, Pakistan, Iran and Afghanistan – using language that perhaps expressed more than a journalist can in thousands of words:
“It is all one bloody mess … isn’t it. Every one is caught in every one else’s web..”
(Reuters photo/Fayaz Kabli)
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rajeev, how many kashmiris killed by 1 million pakistani soldiers in muzzafarabad/ajk. oh wait, we don’t have a million soldiers in ajk.
why is that the only country to call AJK “POK” is India?
why do kashmiris refer to “POK” as Azad Kashmir?
pathetic.
GOOGLE SEARCH RESULTS
“KASHMIRIS CHEERING PAKISTAN” – 308,000 Results
“KASHMIRIS CHEERING INDIA” – 18,000
I was watching news on an Indian news channel. I usually watch news on Indian media just to keep myself aware about the happenings in India and to know about the Indian perspective of events and happenings. Although Indian media’s point of veiw is always grossly biased and subservient to the so called Indian national interests, which are always hegemonistic, camaflougistic, boastful about God knows what, anti- Kashmir and last but not least anti-Pakistan.
When recently I was in Bombay, I found many Muslims of Bombay read Samna, official mouthpiece rubbish of Shiv Sena. When I asked them why they read an anti – Muslim paper, they answered, “it enlightens us with a resolve to fight it out with them”. By reading Samna, Muslims of Bombay acquaint themselves with the Sick Sena mindset. They get informed about the cookings in the minds of Hindu facists. I got my lesson and I started to watch and read every possible Indian media for my personal self interest. And that my personal self interest is nothing but to seek Freedom.Freedom from everything Indian and Freedom from those who have deprived my nation of self respect, dignified living, national identity and free atmosphere. Coming back to the news on Indian TV, I was amazed to know that in Rajasthan, Hindu couples give birth to female babies only to receive an incentive of Rs. 1800 per female child and then after recieving the money, female infants are murdered to get rid of the bad omen which many Hindus in India consider females to be. This practice of recieving money for female child and then getting rid of that child is becoming more and more popular by every passing day. The scheme of provinding Rs. 1800 as bonus to couples who give birth to female infants was introduced by Government of India under immense pressure from UNESCO and other world bodies to help curb the barbaric menace of female infanticides which are uncontrolled and common in India. This news is not such a big shock to hear as India is home to these kinds of inhuman and savage acts. We are habitual of hearing to such distressing and atrocious news items regularly on Indian media. Sati, Dain (wich hunt, in which women are beaten to death), Child sacrifice, Devdassi Pratha (Priestly Prostitution) infant marriages and many other horrifying pracitices are a common place in modern India. While watching that news my mind bewildered, “Is this the India the great and shining which its lunatic leadership and biased media is very proud of”. And then I realised what an uncivilised and heartless enemy we Kashmiris are dealing with. We are fighting for our Freedom not with a civilised nation but with mindless barbarians and heartless beasts, who derive sadistic pleasure out of human misery. Those who can kill their own children for merely Rs.1800 can wreack havoc on us for even few bucks less. It is really a high time to stop weeping at every attrocity Indian beasts unleash on Kashmiri nation. Our weeping and mourning brings cheer to their dark faces. We need to deprive them of that cheer and pleasure. We should do something different and equally painful to them. Let them also cry and moan. We need to make their stay in Kashmir a hell of an experience. I kept on watching the news and the next news item was about M. F. Hussain the painter. At the age of 95, this old and frail man vehemently shuns India and everything Indian in him. He was tired of showcasing and exhibiting his Indian patriotism again and again to Hindus of “Secular” India. He was not allowed to breathe freely in “Secular” India. His life was at stake and his wings were being clipped. He did what was best for him, atleast he got a last chance to mend his fate.
I now think about that faithful Indian Kashmiri dog Farooq Abdullah and other pedigree puppies of his breed. Will they at all get any chance to mend their fates?
I believe No they won’t get any chance. They have already exhausted that chance a long back. Let these pet dogs prove their loyalties towards India and her people, every day in and day out, till they all die one by one like dirty stray hungry dogs. Who cares
The Armed Forces Special Powers Act (AFSPA) was passed on September 11, 1958 by the Parliament of India. It conferred special powers upon armed forces in what the language of the act calls “disturbed areas” in the states of Arunachal Pradesh, Assam, Manipur, Meghalaya, Mizoram, Nagaland and Tripura. It was later extended to Jammu and Kashmir as the The Armed Forces (Jammu and Kashmir) Special Powers Act, 1990 in July 1990.
According to the AFSPA, in an area that is proclaimed as “disturbed”, an officer of the armed forces has powers to :
? Fire upon or otherwise use force, even to the causing of death, against any person who is acting in contravention of any law against assembly of five or more persons or possession of deadly weapons.
Assembly of five or more persons means if you are playing cricket with your friends, its your fault. Dont blame the forces! .
Tupak/shaquib and all:
1. Are we interested in atrocities on Kashmiris in general or are we interested in atrocities on Kashmiris just by Indian Army? Time to compare IHK vs POK.
2. Available reports tell that 44% of Kashmiris in Pakistan and 43% in India want an independent Kashmir.
3. A trace number of Kashmiris in India (merely 2%) are willing to go with pakistan and comparable is the # of Kashmiris in POK (1%) who want to go with India.
So it is clear that the Kashmiris are not big fans of neither India nor Pakistan.
While it can be argued why Kashmiris don’t like India based on “100,000 killings” of kashmiris by Indian Army, I am puzzled by the fact that why Kashmiris hate Pakistan. Tupak;s tries to explain by saying that “people are unhappy with govt in his neighborhood”, so it is no big deal if kashmiris are unhappy. Point taken but are his unhappy neighbors asking for a separate nation or to reform the nation.
There must be something that makes Kashmiris hate Pakistan and if u add religion factor (as Pakistani posters often argue) and the “moral support” for the Kashmir cause by Pakistan, this becomes even more puzzling.
What is happening in POK that we do not know and these fine Pakistanis are reluctant to discuss? Is patriotism of Pakistanis coming in way to discuss Kashmir cause. Forget Kosovo and talk about POK and IHK. Enough of hiding behind the couch by pakistanis and time to talk about Kashmiris and those in Northern Areas. But that will happen if one is concerned about the cause not personal ego.
In occupied Kashmir, 2,700 unmarked graves containing over 2,943 bodies across 55 villages in three districts, Bandipore,, Baramulla and Kupwara have been discovered. The Srinagar based human rights group, International People’s Tribunal on Human Rights and Justice for Kashmir (IPTJ) in its report claimed that the graves could be of those missing from the custody of Indian troops. Rights groups put their numbers at ten thousand. The report is based on research between November 2006 and November 2009 and has been authored by prominent human rights activists of India and occupied Kashmir, Angana P. Chatterji, Parvez Imroz, Gautam Navlakha, ZahirUd-Din, Mihir Desai, and Khurram Parvez. 112-page dossier, titled ‘Buried Evidence’ was released at a press conference in Srinagar today by Angna Chatterjee, the convener of the group. The report documents in considerable detail how the actions of Indian military and paramilitary forces in Kashmir inflict terror on the local population, killed through extra-judicial means. The IPTJ said it examined 50 encounter killings. Forty-nine of the victims were labeled as militants or foreign insurgents by the troops. “Forty-seven were found killed in fake encounters; one was identified as a local militant. We don’t know who the remaining two are,” said an IPTJ office-bearer. In one such case, the troops claimed to have killed four foreign Pakistani terrorists on April 29, 2007 and identified them as Abu-Safayan, Abu-Hafiz, Abu-Sadiq and Abu-Ashraf. “Three of the four male bodies were buried in Sedarpora village in the Kandi area, Kupwara district. The three were later identified as residents of Kashmir, killed in fake encounters. The real names of the deceased were Reyaz Ahmad Bhat of Kalashpora, Manzoor Ahmad Wagay of Letar, Pulwama and Sartaj Ahmad Ganai, resident of Tikipora, Shopian district. The identity of the fourth has not been ascertained,” report says. The bodies of Manzoor and Sartaj were exhumed and identified, while Reyaz was identified through a complex process, the report says, adding that Reyaz and Manzoor were ordinary civilians but Sartaj was a militant.
Traditionally, all graves in Kashmir are marked and the epitaphs mention the name and residence of those buried. The findings came a year and a half after the Association of Parents of Disappeared People (APDP) released a report, titled “Facts under Ground”, that said there were 940 unmarked graves in just one tehsil, Uri, of Baramulla. “A full-scale investigation must be commissioned under provisions of the Commissions of Inquiry Act, 1952, and/or other relevant laws, to inquire into the disappearances within a stipulated and reasonable timeframe. We also note that certain freedom fighters who have surrendered to the security forces have been disappeared in violation of Habeas Corpus, and that the chain of violations in these cases should be investigated”, the report says.
The detailed press note issued in Srinagar at the press conference is as follows:
BURIED EVIDENCE is authored by Angana P. Chatterji, Parvez Imroz, Gautam Navlakha, Zahir-Ud-Din, Mihir Desai, and Khurram Parvez.
[Dr. Angana P. Chatterji is Convener IPTK and Professor, Anthropology, California Institute of Integral Studies.
Advocate Parvez Imroz is Convener IPTK and Founder, Jammu and Kashmir Coalition of Civil Society.
Gautam Navlakha is Convener IPTK and Editorial Consultant, Economic and Political Weekly.
Zahir-Ud-Din is Convener IPTK and Vice-President, Jammu and Kashmir Coalition of Civil Society.
Advocate Mihir Desai is Legal Counsel IPTK and Lawyer, Mumbai High Court and Supreme Court of India.
Khurram Parvez is Liaison IPTK and Programme Coordinator, Jammu and Kashmir Coalition of Civil Society.]
Findings
The graveyards investigated by IPTK entomb bodies of those murdered in encounter and fake encounter killings between 1990-2009. These graves include bodies of extrajudicial, summary, and arbitrary executions, as well as massacres committed by the Indian military and paramilitary forces.
Of these graves, 2,373 (87.9 percent) were unnamed. Of these graves, 154 contained two bodies each and 23 contained more than two cadavers. Within these 23 graves, the number of bodies ranged from 3 to 17. A mass grave may be identified as containing more than one, and usually unidentified, human cadaver. Scholars refer to mass graves as resulting from crimes against humanity, war crimes, or genocide. If the intent of a mass grave is to execute death with impunity, with intent to kill more than one, and to forge an unremitting representation of death, then, to that extent, the graves in Bandipora, Baramulla, and Kupwara are part of a collective burial by India’s military and paramilitary, creating a landscape of “mass burial.” Post-death, the bodies of the victims were routinely handled by military and paramilitary personnel, including the local police. The bodies were then brought to the “secret graveyards” primarily by personnel of the Jammu and Kashmir Police. The graves were constructed by local gravediggers and caretakers, buried individually when possible, and specifically not en mass, in keeping with Islamic religious sensibilities.
The graves, with few exceptions, hold bodies of men. Violence against civilian men has expanded spaces for enacting violence against women. Women have been forced to disproportionately assume the task of caregiving to disintegrated families and undertake the work of seeking justice following disappearances and deaths. These graveyards have been placed next to fields, schools, and homes, largely on community land, and their affect on the local community is daunting.
The Indian Armed Forces and the Jammu and Kashmir Police routinely claim the dead buried in unknown and unmarked graves to be “foreign militants/terrorists.” They claim that the dead were unidentified foreign or Kashmiri militants killed while infiltrating across the border areas into Kashmir or travelling from Kashmir into Pakistan to seek arms training.
Official state discourse conflates cross-border militancy with present nonviolent struggles by local Kashmiri groups for political and territorial self-determination, portraying local resistance as “terrorist” activity. Exhumation and identification have not occurred in sizeable cases. Where they have been undertaken, in various instances, “encounter” killings across Kashmir have, in fact, been authenticated as “fake encounter” killings. In instances where, post-burial, bodies have been identified, two methods have been used prevalently.
These are 1. Exhumation; and 2. Identification through the use of photographs.
The report also examines 50 alleged “encounter” killings by Indian security forces in numerous districts in Kashmir. Of these persons, 39 were of Muslim descent; 4 were of Hindu descent; 7 were not determined. Of these cases, 49 were labelled militants/foreign insurgents by security forces and one body that was drowned. Of these, following investigations, 47 were found killed in fake encounters and one was identifiable as a local militant. IPTK has been able to study only partial areas within 3 of 10 districts in Kashmir, and our findings and very preliminary evidence point to the severity of existing conditions. If independent investigations were to be undertaken in all 10 districts, it is reasonable to assume that the 8,000+ enforced disappearances since 1989 would correlate with the number of bodies in unknown, unmarked, and mass graves.
Allegations
The methodical and planned use of killing and violence in Indian-administered Kashmir constitutes crimes against humanity in the context of an ongoing conflict. The Indian state’s governance of Indian-administered Kashmir requires the use of discipline and death as techniques of social control. Discipline is affected through military presence, surveillance, punishment, and fear. Death is disbursed through “extrajudicial” means and those authorized by law. These techniques of rule are used to kill, and create fear of not just death but of murder.
Mass and intensified extrajudicial killings have been part of a sustained and widespread offensive by the military and paramilitary institutions of the Indian state against civilians of Jammu and Kashmir. IPTK asks that the evidence put forward in this report be examined, verified, and reframed as relevant by credible, independent, and international bodies, and that international institutions ask that the Government of India comply with such investigations.
We note that the international community and institutions have not examined the supposition of crimes against humanity in Indian-administered Jammu and Kashmir. We note that the United Nations and its member states have remained ineffective in containing and halting the adverse consequences of the Indians state’s militarization in Kashmir.
We ask that evidence from unknown, unmarked, and mass graves in Indian-administered Jammu and Kashmir be used to seek justice, through the sentencing of criminals and other judicial and social processes. As well, the existence of these graves, and how they came to be, may be understood as indicative of the effects and issue of militarization and the issues pertaining to militarization itself must be addressed seriously and expeditiously.
The violence’s of militarization in Indian-administered Kashmir, between 1989-2009, have resulted in 70,000+ deaths, including through extrajudicial or “fake encounter” executions, custodial brutality, and other means. In the enduring conflict, 6, 67,000 military and paramilitary personnel continue to act with impunity to regulate movement, law, and order across Kashmir. The Indian state itself, through its legal, political, and military actions, has demonstrated the existence of a state of continuing conflict within Indian-administered Jammu and Kashmir.
Rajeev, if you are really interested in IoK versus PoK, go to amnesty international, they have neutral record on both areas.
is ajk an utopian society for kashmiris? no. are there mass graves there? NO NO NO.
Tupak:
I have to leave right now but say this quickly:
But I am glad you are ready to discuss. Shabaash!
@rajeev, how many kashmiris killed by 1 million pakistani soldiers in muzzafarabad/ajk. oh wait, we don’t have a million soldiers in ajk.”
—Drink a glass of Rooh-Afza and cool down. You don’t have billion people either if that helps you. Did u count non-uniformed soldiers?
@why is that the only country to call AJK “POK” is India?
why do kashmiris refer to “POK” as Azad Kashmir? ”
—”What’s in a name? That which we call a rose
By any other name would smell as sweet.”
Read up on the constitution of “Azad Kashmir” and the policies of Pakistan and what Kashmiris want (that u me and all would agree….independence!). While Pakistan asks for self-determination by Kashmiris, it crushes self-determination at home by promoting only those who show say “Kashmir banega Pakistan” (such Kashmiris in “AJK” are only 2%).
There is serious contradiction. Read the UN human rights report where they have shown how that is the case.
@ 2. Available reports tell that 44% of Kashmiris in Pakistan and 43% in India want an independent Kashmir.
3. A trace number of Kashmiris in India (merely 2%) are willing to go with pakistan and comparable is the # of Kashmiris in POK (1%) who want to go with India
Posted by RajeevK
Rajeev, are you out of your mind! Scientific polls conducted by independant sources are NOT the real barometer Kashmiri sentiments. The REAL barometer is the number of search results churned out by google & the number of kashmiri flags being waved in a Pakistan-Australia cricket game. Google search proves beyond any doubt that Kashmiris prefer Pakistan over India by a margin of 308:18
@Rajeev, if you are really interested in IoK versus PoK, go to amnesty international, they have neutral record on both areas.”
–Tupak
—Why leave mysteries? why don’t u bring that IoK versus PoK from amnesty international.
Is UN human rights and Asian human rights reports NOT NEUTRAL? huh?
@KPSingh,
I’ll not go as far as calling Myra deliberately biased but other than that I second your opinion completely. GOI should withdraw Article 370 from Kashmir and facilitate settling up of Kashmiri Pundits back there instead of making them live in miserable conditions in tents in Delhi. That is so shameful for original inhabitants for that area. Even if India has to do it Israel style, they should start constructing self-contained SEZ-type colonies and make army protect it.
As for Pakistan crying for the plights of Kashmiris – they have always had the golden opportunity to declare PoK as independent nation and name it, say, West Kashmir and then it would have helped the Kashmiri separatists tremendously. The mere fact that they have not done so clearly hints about their double-speak about their support for Kashmir. May be the Pakistani posters here should go and press their own government to declare PoK a sovereign state. Kashmiris love Pakistanis so they don’t have any possible security issues either.
I fail to understand what is wrong with Indian Kashmiris. India is not a communist rule or monarchy, each state has a certain control in power sharing, and common men should really not care about who is governing as long as governance is good. Peoples’ grudges can be understood when commodity prices are high, law and order is failing, or Kashmiris are being discriminated or not allowed to practice their religion and things like that but not otherwise. This is not 1950s, it is 2010 and independence does not mean much for the citizens of any country (in an ideal scenario). Governments primary job is to provide sound administration, security and pursue its peoples’ interests world-wide. Do these people think that getting “independence” will alter their lives in any manner except that checking a non-item in their wishlist? What special kind of lives will they get if they deal in some other currency instead of Indian Rupees? In that regard, Kashmiris are plainly being emotional and there is really no real reason behind their grudges.
Another reason, India should never budge an inch on Kashmir issue is the clear cut ethnic cleansing and discriminations that we have seen against minorities in the Muslim-majority countries, particularly Pakistan. Even if India has to do 100s of Tiananmen squares, we’ll still save thousand times more lives than we’d unfortunately kill in these protests. I know its immoral stance but nobody can deny the Math behind it.
i understand a wide disparity in google aggregation is not as scientific as anecdotal stories about someone’s friends visiting kashmir and getting a rousing hero’s welcome by kashmiri haseenas in the valley
if you are so interested in a scientific poll, try a plebiscite…
Even if India has to do 100s of Tiananmen squares, we’ll still save thousand times more lives than we’d unfortunately kill in these protests.
— indian morality on display. i rest my case.
—”What’s in a name? That which we call a rose
By any other name would smell as sweet.”
not true. An azad rose smells so much sweeter
@”i understand a wide disparity in google aggregation is not as scientific as anecdotal stories about someone’s friends visiting kashmir and getting a rousing hero’s welcome by kashmiri haseenas in the valley”
Posted by tupak_shakir
Exaggerations, distortions & lies: a typical Pakistani hallamrk. Can you point out where anyone has narrated anecdotal stories about “friends getting hero’s welcome in kashmir”?
@”if you are so interested in a scientific poll, try a plebiscite”
You want a plebicite? Fine, do the following:
* Have your army withdraw each & every of it’s state & non-state actor from PoK.
* Have your army call back all it’s non-state actors from J&K.
* Have your establishment un-alter the map of PoK & bring it back to the way it was in 1947 i.e abrogate the Kashmiri territory included in FANA over the years.
* Have your establishment get back from China, the Kashmiri land which it had gifted to it’s Chinsese friends.
* Have your establishment unsettle all the Punjabis & non-Kashmiris which it has settled in PoK since 1947.
* Call back all the Kashmiris living in the UK, west & other countries.
* Settle back all the Kashmiri pandits, sikhs & others who have left the valley in the last 2 decades for fear of being killed by terrorists from your country.
Fulfill the above, before ever talking about holding a plebicite.
@”not true. An azad rose smells so much sweeter”
A state or territory does not become Azad just by preceding it’s name with the word “Azad”. Azad Kashmir is just as “Azad” as the Democratic People’s Republic of Korea (North Korea) is “Democratic”.
Kashmiris in their own words:
“Seventeen Indian slumdog occupation troops have been killed after being buried alive in an avalanche near Khilanmarg. It’s a time to celebrate, to offer prayers of thanks, to hand out treats, to hug our fellow Kashmiris for this joyful news. If you are really keen, let’s also light up some loud firecrackers.”
“To Kashmiris, there was never any doubt that the current so-called “elected” administration of Omar Abdullah is a fake, propped-up puppet of New Delhi. They have been imposed upon Kashmir just to save face for India at international levels when in reality all the strings are pulled in New Delhi.” – Yousuf (KashmirTruthbeTold)
“It is worthwhile to note here that there is not a single pro-India blogger from Kashmir. So much for India’s claims that Kashmiris are pro-India! Even Omar Abdullah and his stooges gave up blogging when they ran out of lies to continue to justify India’s occupation.”
“This post reflects clearly that how much helpless we Kashmiris are in front of the worlds savageous army who shoots kids of Kashmiris for fun.Allahs calamity has fallen on 17 personell of Slumdog army and this has provided us a reason to rejoice.Allahs says no calamity befalls on you unless what your hands have earned so Indeed this is a punishment for the unbated atrocities committed on Kashmiris whoose only crime is that they oppose the occupation of their land their air and their life by Slumdogs.” – Dr. Waleed Sheikh
“Again, keep aside your narrow minded prejudices. Have you gone through our blogs here? Exactly where do you see references to Pakistan media? Just because you Indians habitually take what your media spews as holy scriptures, doesnt mean us Kashmiris rely on Pakistan media.”
“After former Yugoslavia, it is India’s turn to naturally disintegrate (I cannot wait until the day when we can finally refer to India as “former India”). Just imagine, had the former unnatural federation of balkan states, called Yugoslavia, not unravelled, we would still be witnessing the grotesque bloodshed that the Serbs perpetrated during the 80?s and 90?s”
“Not only must the world censure India for it’s heinous acts in Kashmir, the world must also move toward policies that call for India’s disintegration. They should do this to ensure world peace.”
“You did not bear the humiliation that we living Kashmiris bear everyday. You stood up to the Indian dogs and resisted like brave men and women do. Sacrificing your lives for freedom, justice and honour”
As always, the official Indian response to local demands for self-determination has been to portray the Kashmiri freedom struggle as terrorism and a threat to Indian “democracy”. The insistence of this rhetoric borders on hypocrisy. – KashmirLiberationFront
All Parties Hurriyet Conference Mirwaiz Umar Farooq has strongly denounced the illegal detention of pro-movement leaders and activists. – JKAPCH
“And while thou native were riddled with bullets. My long dead soul was chasing dreams. While blood oozed and they watched unconcerned. While thou were gasping for each labouring breath” – ~ Kahsmir ~
“Kashmiris on both sides of the Line of Control and across the world observed Indian Republic Day, today, as Black Day – Kashmir Freedom Movement” – Memoirs of a Kashmiri
At least 1 lakh patients suffering from conflict-induced trauma as also suicidal tendencies in Kashmir have visited psychiatric consultancy centre in Government Psychiatric Hospital during 2008. – Kashmir View
A Kashmiri Terrorist,11 months old ambushed Indian army. His killers Indian Occupational army are roaming free and looking for a new prey.Is there anyone to stop them?
“indian morality on display. i rest my case.’
Thank you barrister but unfortunately, we’ve not received any confirmation of your appointment from Kashmiris! The door is that way.
You did not bear the humiliation that we living Kashmiris bear everyday
You stood up to the Indian dogs and resisted like brave men and women do
Sacrificing your lives for freedom, justice and honour
Amin, Javed, Mohiuddin, Neelofar, Asiya, and Sajad Ganayie: these are just a few names of martyred Kashmiris in the past months, of whom I have written and I know of–out of the hundreds of thousands of fallen Kashmiris whose stories will never reach the world.
I will not attempt to justify my absence. The injustice of it all is so overwhelming that it pains to express it in words. How can the world let the Indian dogs get away with so much horror, bloodshed, and brutality on Kashmiris?
Just when we were coming to grips with the murder of Amin and Javed by the Indian Army, and the subsequent murder of Mohiuddin by the Indian CRPF troops, shortly after, we were subsequently made to suffer through the agonizing ordeal of rape and murder by the Indian Army of Neelofar and Asiya and numerous other murders of unarmed protesters–the numbers for this year alone surpass 2000. And then came the murder of Sajad Ganayie of Langate by the Indian occupation troops. No one was punished for the murders of Amin and Javed; no one was punished for the murder of Mohiuddin; no one was punished for the rapes and murders of Neelofar and Asiya; and no one was punished for the murder of Sajad.
The Indian-appointed puppet-administration’s bluff of “exemplary punishment” for the culprits involved in the murder of Amin and Javed was turned up on its head by the puppet administration’s Delhi based masters, the merchants of death in Delhi, headed by the mercenary-of-death named Sonia Gandhi, who dances devilishly like a “Kali Mata” on the freshly shed blood of innocent Kashmiris and who is personally responsible for their murders, since she is the de facto head of state of India–Manmohan being her other lapdog, whose sole purpose apart from sycophancy is to be her “Indian face” to her illiterate and ignoramus populace.
The puppets were shown their proper place–by the feet of their Indian masters, like obedient dogs that they are–and retaught that of all those who speak against the Indian occupation troops, the least of all who will be tolerated by the Indian despots are the weasels running the show currently for India in Kashmir. One weasel is just as good as another weasel. Weasels have no character or conscience and will sell their souls just to cling on to the title of head-weasel. Lest Muftis take the coveted spot of the head-weasel.
And hence, no more barkings of “exemplary punishment” are heard from them as they has learnt to obey his Delhi masters, and therefore have adopted the more acceptable terminology of “It’s being looked into” as his predecessors had done for decades. That’s what was told to Tim Sullivan when asked about the murders taking place in Kashmir.
Thank you Mr Tim Sullivan of Associated Press for writing about this. Read Mr Sullivan’s article here.
n Jammu and Kashmir state India deals with the people according to their religion. In Jammu Fanatic extremist Hindu parties and their activists and the people of Jammu who being armed with swords trishuls( a three edged spear)petrol bombs, who torch lynch and cut Muslims and Muslim cops as well are given cold drinks by Indian Army and Hindu dominated Jammu police. they are given a free passage for attaching Offices of Kashmir based newspapers, Throw petrol bombs on the trucks of Muslim drivers plying on pathankot Srinagar highway. Who set on fire whole Gujjar (Muslim) huts in Jammu.Sambha,Kathua.Indian communal army watches them with pride and pats them.People like Brig.Suchet sing(retd) Who during the time of service took oath under secular constitution was found shoulder to shoulder assisting advising communal and fanatic Hindus how to attack and enforce economic blockade against Muslims of Kashmir,Doda,poonch . And harass Muslims of Jammu region. If a person of such calibre and post in Indian army can be of dubious character what about the common solider of this army. After the events of Jammu it should be eye opener of everyone who harbour illusions about the secular fabric of Indian army. We remember that during Gujarat massacre of Muslims we were told that had there been army called out by George Fernandez ,Muslims could have been saved but time has proved wrong. What is the difference now when in Gujarat an ex M.P (Muslim) is killed by throwing burning tyre on him in the absence of Army and fanatic Hindu youths who on riding a motorcycle throw petrol bombs on a Kashmiri Muslim truck driver who got burnt 90% and is waiting for death to overcome him as all the burnt people die of septicaemia. Sure death. This all was done in broad daylight in the presence of Hindu police and Secular army of India.Now the question arises how many Suchet singhs will be in the Indian army having masks of secularism on their face and when they get an opportunity to inflict harm to the Muslims they would be doing that without any let or hinderence.If Govt.of India wants to give an example to others then it should annulate the pension of this communal ex Brig.Take the medals if any from him as a punishment for defaming the army,otherwise this taint will remain on the army and secular fabric will be always disputed.
Now lets talk about what the same army does when they are in Kashmir.Unarmed protestors whose weapon is faith and trust in Allah,Who never pour venom against Hindus.Who consider Common man of Jammu their own.Who take Hindu piligrims on their shoulders to their place of worship high up in the mountains of Kashmir.Who at the time of the adventure of tribals in 1947 saved the Hindus in Kashmir only for their betrayal in 1990 when the same Hindus left valley in order to Give Jagmohan a free hand to Kill the Muslims in Kashmir which he did with full impunity.Freedom is a right of every Human being.Kashmiris who were betrayed and deceived by Sheikh Abdullah want freedom from Indian occupation and want use the right of self determination as promised to them by UN and the first prime Minister of India.When Kashmiris raise their voice against the oppression and ask for eroding the cease fire line so as to avoid confrontation with Hindu fanatics of Jammu, ask for freedom. The secular army of India spray them with bullets and such tear gas shells which are supposed to used during combat. Beat them with Bamboo sticks to pulp. In 21 century a protest rally in other parts of world is stopped by spraying water on the protestors so that no life is lost. But India doesn’t consider Kashmiris their citizens which have been proven again again and again from 1947 till date. Why then kashmiris should consider themselves Indians. In Kashmir when people protest army gets so frustrated that they enter residential houses and beat the immates break windows, Molest women.
The cold blooded killings of last two days have revealed again the real face of secular India and its secular army.Kashmiris who were caught between a rock and hard place by the economic blockade were just trying to get their Just voice heard by the higher authorities of India. If govt. of India would had clamped curfew in the city as soon as the time of March towards Muzzaffarabad was announced we would have understood that all this is done in good faith but Unfortunately The occupational forces have long ago tasted the blood of unarmed Kashmiris and they want to taste it again and again.The unknown graves in Kashmir. The fake encounters.Criminal attacks on ambulances and doctors who were transporting injured.Beating women and children have again proven the dubious attitude of Indian army and its sister forces towards Kashmiris.Now it’s a high time for kashmiri’s to understand that its do or die situation now and as we all know that Independence from Indian occupation cannot be a reality until we all fight together against those who have deprived us of it fro centuries.We must listen to our leaders and act as per their command so as to get success.May god Help Kashmiris.
Your fellow kashmiri
Dr,Bilal Sheikh
Since everybody talks about piece-ful protesters in Kashmir:
“CRPF, the central paramilitary force at the forefront of
counter-insurgency operations and crowd control, has been at the receiving end of Kashmir ire. In just one month, 273 CRPF jawans have been injured in stone pelting while over the last two years, 1,980 personnel have been wounded.”
Pepper bullets coming soon: http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/india /JK-Soon-pepper-guns-to-quell-slingshot s/articleshow/6160399.cms
Tupak:
As they say if you cannot convince them confuse the hell out of them. So you are throwing miles and piles of unrelated issues—some of them are non-existent.
what does “Sati” has to do with kashmir issue? Zero–nothing. LOL
My original point was that there is no Azadi (freedom) in Azad kashmir. Azad kashmir is SHAMELESSLY run by Pakistanis. While Pakistan asks for self-determination by Kashmiris, the constitution of Azad Kashmir is such that self-determination is BANNED. Only those who show allegiance to Pakistan are allowed to participate in the political process. that there are serious human rights violations in Kashmir and Northern Areas.
None of the above has been addressed and u started firing same old stuff.
I am not going to get lost in the miles and piles of your same material which all together indicates Indian Army action leads to death of Kashmiri youth. Without getting into the magnitude of it, I do not think it can be denied that Indian security action leads to death of sometimes innocent Kashmiris. Heard ya loud and clear. Now move on.
http://balawaristan.blogspot.com/2008/01 /serious-human-rights-violations-in.htm l
{{{Serious human rights violations in Gilgit Baltistan}}}
“”The right of self-determination for Kashmiris was hypocritical because Pakistan, through its imposed constitution of 1974, has already provided for pre-determination in favour of Pakistan. The said constitution says: “No person or political party in Azad Kashmir shall be permitted to propagate against, or take part in activities prejudicial or detrimental to, the ideology of the State” accession to Pakistan.” “”"
“The focus of debates on Kashmir at the annual meetings of United Nations Human Rights Commission in Geneva (UNCHR) has certainly changed over the past about 10 years. Ten years ago the Commission heard mainly what the Pakistan funded non-government organizations (NGOs) had to parrot about the right of self-determination of Kashmiris in the part of Kashmir that is on the Indian side of the Line of Control (LOC) and India’s alleged violations of human rights.
“One remembers the furore the Prime Minister of Pakistan kicked off in March 1994 when she moved a resolution on alleged violations of human rights in Kashmir. Ms. Bhutto had hoped that at least Muslim countries would support this resolution. Pakistan had to withdraw it because no support came from the Muslim countries. This was a serious setback to Pakistan’s diplomacy.”
http://www.jammu-kashmir.com/insights/in sight990902.html
By Sultan Shaheen
http://www.jammu-kashmir.com/insights/in sight20080628.html
The Human Rights Problem in Gilgit-Baltistan
Paul Beersmans
STATE SPONSOR OF TERRORISM AND IMPACT OF SUCH POLICIES ON HUMAN RIGHTS IN AZAD JAMMU AND KASHMIR
In Azad Jammu and Kashmir the socio-political and cultural landscape of the region has been adversely affected since it has been the epicentre of the Kashmir jihad for a long time. Terrorist jihadi organisations engaged in violence in the Indian Jammu and Kashmir State have camps and offices in Muzaffarabad, the capital, and elsewhere in Azad Kashmir. They mainly owe their existence to Inter Services Intelligence (Pakistan’s military intelligence agency) support. Fundamental freedoms, such as the freedom of movement, freedom of expression, freedom of assembly and freedom of association are often infringed under various pretences. Creation of independent media are being prevented through bureaucratic restrictions and coercion. The people in Azad Kashmir have lost not only their fundamental rights, but all rights whatsoever. This exploitation continues, although there is an increasing awareness among the people today, and occasional voices of protest can now be heard. 5
CONCLUSIONS
“Asma Jahangir, special UN rapporteur on Human Rights, appeals to the friends of Pakistan to urge the US Administration to stop all support of the instable dictator, as his lust for power is bringing the country close to a worse form of civil strife. She believes that Musharraf has to be taken out of the equation and a government of national reconciliation to be put in place. It must be backed by the military. Short of this there are no realistic solutions.
“Military training, cooperation and aid should be reviewed. At the same time aid for education, poverty reduction, healthcare and relief work should be expanded, channelling money through secular non-governmental organisations (NGOs)
“Successive Pakistani governments, which call for ‘basic Human Rights’ in the Indian Jammu and Kashmir State, ignore these very rights in the case of the Northern Areas and Azad Jammu and Kashmir.
“Militants, fundamentalists and even the Government of Pakistan have argued that in the Kashmir case, the special concept of jihad or holy war applies, which supersedes all international humanitarian law but in a world of myriad religions and ways of life, no one religious interpretation can substitute for internationally accepted standards and law.
“Democracy is not only more acceptable than military rule, but would reduce the influence of fundamentalist Islamists significantly. Speak out unequivocally for democracy in Pakistan, rejecting the idea that martial law is needed for stability, and demand a return to constitutional order. What are needed are political solutions to conflicts and improved long-term security. Non of this will be easy to implement but it offers more hope than more of the same. Pakistan needs change: it can only begin when military dictatorship goes and democracy returns.
http://www.jammu-kashmir.com/insights/in sight990902.html
By Sultan Shaheen
http://www.jammu-kashmir.com/insights/in sight20080628.html
The Human Rights Problem in Gilgit-Baltistan
Paul Beersmans
STATE SPONSOR OF TERRORISM AND IMPACT OF SUCH POLICIES ON HUMAN RIGHTS IN AZAD JAMMU AND KASHMIR
In Azad Jammu and Kashmir the socio-political and cultural landscape of the region has been adversely affected since it has been the epicentre of the Kashmir jihad for a long time. Terrorist jihadi organisations engaged in violence in the Indian Jammu and Kashmir State have camps and offices in Muzaffarabad, the capital, and elsewhere in Azad Kashmir. They mainly owe their existence to Inter Services Intelligence (Pakistan’s military intelligence agency) support. Fundamental freedoms, such as the freedom of movement, freedom of expression, freedom of assembly and freedom of association are often infringed under various pretences. Creation of independent media are being prevented through bureaucratic restrictions and coercion. The people in Azad Kashmir have lost not only their fundamental rights, but all rights whatsoever. This exploitation continues, although there is an increasing awareness among the people today, and occasional voices of protest can now be heard. 5
CONCLUSIONS
“Asma Jahangir, special UN rapporteur on Human Rights, appeals to the friends of Pakistan to urge the US Administration to stop all support of the instable dictator, as his lust for power is bringing the country close to a worse form of civil strife. She believes that Musharraf has to be taken out of the equation and a government of national reconciliation to be put in place. It must be backed by the military. Short of this there are no realistic solutions.
“Military training, cooperation and aid should be reviewed. At the same time aid for education, poverty reduction, healthcare and relief work should be expanded, channelling money through secular non-governmental organisations (NGOs)
“Successive Pakistani governments, which call for ‘basic Human Rights’ in the Indian Jammu and Kashmir State, ignore these very rights in the case of the Northern Areas and Azad Jammu and Kashmir.
“Militants, fundamentalists and even the Government of Pakistan have argued that in the Kashmir case, the special concept of jihad or holy war applies, which supersedes all international humanitarian law but in a world of myriad religions and ways of life, no one religious interpretation can substitute for internationally accepted standards and law.
“Democracy is not only more acceptable than military rule, but would reduce the influence of fundamentalist Islamists significantly. Speak out unequivocally for democracy in Pakistan, rejecting the idea that martial law is needed for stability, and demand a return to constitutional order. What are needed are political solutions to conflicts and improved long-term security. Non of this will be easy to implement but it offers more hope than more of the same. Pakistan needs change: it can only begin when military dictatorship goes and democracy returns.
http://www.kashmiri.info/index2.php?opti on=com_content&do_pdf=1&id=1050
Constitutional Structure of Azad Kashmir and Its Relationship to Pakistan
Government of Azad Kashmir, by the Pakistanis, for Pakistan.
Former president of Azad Kashmir (name withheld)
A former president of Azad Kashmir (who preferred not to be named in this report) described the situation as “[g]overnment of Azad Kashmir, by the Pakistanis, for Pakistan.” He also pointed to the striking continuity of the “old princely system” under British rule because of Islamabad’s “viceroy” role generally and the maintenance of the traditional biradarisystem locally.41
“”The constitution of Azad Kashmir poses major impediments towards genuine democracy as it bars all those parties and individuals from participating in the political process who do not support the idea of Kashmir’s accession to Pakistan and hence precludes all those who are in favor of Kashmiri independence. To fail to support, or fail to appear to support Kashmir’s accession to Pakistan means to invite the ire of Pakistan’s abusive intelligence agencies and its military. It also entails inviting political persecution, such as ineligibility to contest elections or to seek employment with any government institution, or the curtailing of basic freedom of expression.”"
@ Shakir
—”What’s in a name? That which we call a rose
By any other name would smell as sweet.”
“not true. An azad rose smells so much sweeter”
Well said bro.
“not true. An azad rose smells so much sweeter”
Posted by tupak_shakir
AND A NICE TIGHT SLAP…
“A state or territory does not become Azad just by preceding it’s name with the word “Azad”. Azad Kashmir is just as “Azad” as the Democratic People’s Republic of Korea (North Korea) is “Democratic”.”
Posted by Mortal1
And an azad rose dries and dies quicker as well. Let it be rooted to the ground that gave birth to it and nurtured it so that it may give fragrance in future.
The Indian leaders are now bankrupt: They have lost the credibility to find a solution for the kashmiris. They need to consult their big brother the USA to learn “how to withdraw their military from the occupied territory without creating a human disaster in the continent or create a war between the nuclear equiped armadas of two main actors whose radicals are simply awaiting for long overdue vengence against each other. The macho India which has managed to live with the chaos with the so called democracy coupled with the use of military for sixty years and Pakistan which has not learned to have a stable civilian Govt. without the involvement of the military. The UNO operating under the old world power system is the weakest of all the villains in the history of mankind. Instead of resolving issues they are simply and very simply impotent because of the veto powers.
Rex Minor
A million boots cannot ‘nurture’ anything except terror and oppression.
A reply to Pakistani critics by a Kashmiri:
Dr Shabir Choudhry
http://drshabirchoudhry.blogspot.com/
1. Thank you for your input in response to my article: “Gilgit Baltistan and Shafqat Inquilabi”.
2. I wholeheartedly condemn all human rights violations committed in Kashmir; and I demand that culprits must be punished for their crimes. I hope you have the courage to condemn the following:
A/ Can you condemn killing of innocent Kashmiris during the Tribal Invasion sponsored by Pakistan in 1947. Also can you condemn rapes, kidnapping of Kashmiri women and girls, and looting of my homeland – Kashmir, which was done in name of Jihad in 1947/8
B/ Can you also condemn Killings and imprisonment of people of Azad Kashmir at the hands of Pakistan during the Poonch rebellion in mid 1950s. Unlike militants in the Valley, these people did not have training, arms or money from secret agency of enemy country, they were simply asking for their democratic rights.
C/ Can you also condemn arrest and inhuman torture inflicted upon people of Azad Kashmir by Pakistan during Ganga Hijacking investigations. Even reading of those atrocities could put Nazi cruelties to shame.
D/ Can you condemn rapes and other human rights violations which still take place along the LOC on the Pakistani side of the divide, which people do not report due to stigma and repercussions; and no human rights organisation on the Pakistani side of the divide has courage to speak about them?
E/ Can you condemn denial of fundamental rights to people of Pakistani Administered Kashmir for decades; and looting and plunder of our resources?
F/Can you condemn denial of fundamental rights to people of Gilgit Baltistan – they were ruled by draconian laws with no accountability for decades?
G/Can you condemn annexation of Gilgit Baltistan by Pakistan, while pretending to be Muslim brother and friend of people of Jammu and Kashmir? Pakistani establishment has hidden their colonial designs under the cover of Islam, which is shameful.
Million boots are there to keep Pakistani military budget at 70% for another decade. Government has to pay Army if they stay home or they stay in Kashmir. Why not use them to continue terrifying Pakistani establishment and make them spend all their budget on military and cause an economic defeat. If they don’t take the bait and spend budget on education and nation-building, radicalization goes down, people become prosperous and once society achieve sufficient economic status they become afraid of loosing it. Economy is the reason India did not respond to Mumbai attacks. Same way, when Pakistani economy goes up, people start minding their own business instead of indulging in useless quarrels and risk loosing their present and future. Peace and friendship prevails.
Victory both ways for India!
In continuation of previous post…
Failure and radicalization of Pakistan has already helped India. Previously, Pakistan used to be only India’s headache and now it has become a global problem. Looking at the number of bomb blasts in Pakistan, you ordinary Pakistanis are paying through your nose for the sins of your ISI, Army and the government.
Last weekend, I watched this movie “Unthinkable” – its about an American citizen (Christian converted to Islam) who plants nukes in US cities and puts his demands.
Without giving any further details, when they capture the terrorist they coerce him to reveal the bombs’ location and in return, they promise him a safe passage to PAKISTAN (out of nowhere). The terrorist did not ask for it, btw. The question for Pakistanis is that why could not they think of any other country but Pakistan?
Pakistan asks for self-determination by Kashmiris and “pre-determines” that Kashmir will be part of Pakistan.
Tupak:
@And that my personal self interest is nothing but to seek Freedom.Freedom from everything Indian and Freedom from those who have deprived my nation of self respect, dignified living, national identity and free atmosphere.”
—Hey me too. Ever since Mumbai terroist attack, I have totally stopped eating “Shaan foods” and others product from Pakistan. Hope is that the charity by Pakistani businesses will buy Pakistani terrorists one less bullet for my countrymen for each dubba I buy.
pictures of kashmiris in india:
http://www.qazimamoon.com/
……………………………..
I think they’ve been ‘nurtured’ enough already.
—- Shuqaib, i am beginning to think the attitude of these commenters represents their hinduvta majority.
Posted by tupak_shakir
Yes, anyone who disagrees with you & the terrorism agenda of your army/establishment represents “hindutva”, even though he or she might be sikh, muslim, christian, parsi, other or even non-Indian. Tyypical bigotry!
@Seth
one thing is sure from the film the convert fixed the nukes but his love your enemy christian heart asked him to negotiate. I guess the punishment was very severe. They should have send him to Gitmo guest house, which I understand has improved a lot under the new management. Sorry, I forgot about the leak which remains unpluggesd?
Rex Minor
@RexMinor,
The movie’s title is “Unthikable” – if you have not seen it, its really unthinkable (for Westerners) for what they did to him. Check it out, its not a bad watch for a rainy Sunday.
But the point of my post was that they offered him a safe passage to Pakistan in return and the guy was an American citizen.
Correction: Unthinkable
More reasons not to have another Muslim-majority nation:
“From Pakistan, a human rights activist has sent me a sickening account of a Christian whose wife and four children were killed last month in Jhelum. Apparently, Jamshed Masih, a Christian policeman, was told to move from the predominantly Muslim colony where he and his family lived.
Before the attack, Masih’s 11-year old son went to a local shop, and was refused service on the grounds that he was a non-Muslim. On his return, locals led by Maulana Mahfooz Khan entered the house, asserting that the boy had committed blasphemy and must be punished. Mrs Masih pleaded with the mob, and asked them to wait until her husband returned, but somebody threw an object at her head. Her daughter managed to call her father, but by the time he returned, his family had all been massacred.”
Full article at: http://www.dawn.com/wps/wcm/connect/dawn -content-library/dawn/the-newspaper/colu mnists/irfan-husain-who-will-cast-the-fi rst-stone-470
^^^^^^^’Topic diversion’ FAIL^^^^^^^
@seth
you are looking for logic in a film. I do not detect any logic in the USA administration. Listen to this two of the apparent innocent Gitmo so called terrorists are coming to Germany. well the explanation is that they cannot be tried because of alack of evidence, they were also tortured and are Palistzinians and therefore no home for them. Well the German interior minister has agreed as a christian to take them and heal their sufferings by giving them the psychiatric treatment if necessary.
Rex Minor
Ps when you discover the logic please tell me. Are there no christians in the USA to heal these so called very sick people?
@Rex Minor,
We’re clearly talking two different things. You are rightfully talking about those who were detained w/o any evidences and tortured at Gitmo, lets say outside legal framework. Abuse of power and unethical, had to be stopped! No one here thinks of US as a saint with its selfish policies and the arm-twisting that goes with it. Pakistanis know this much better than Indians. For me the logic is very clear, business to business US greatly benefits India and vice-versa. People to people, everyone has something to learn from each other and amalgamation of culture is a great thing. Government to government, we may have common interests but we’re not friends since friendship happens among equals and we’re not equals.
But two wrongs don’t make one right. The point was that Pakistan people have successfully managed to earn a bad reputation for their nation to such a level that even creative industries are taking the liberty to make otherwise politically incorrect statements about the entire nation.
@Seth
I am sorry iwas simply replying to your question about logic. In my opinion neither India nor Pakistan are Nations in true sense. Pakistan leaders are at least trying but their start was faulty, separate state on the basis of religion.Israel has similar difficulties and worst and struggling. Indian leaders are not even trying to make a Nation from the people living in the country left by the Brits. Everything rotates around chaos and hindu religion. The minorities do not appear to have an equal role. The Govt. democratically elected show no respect for theirvery large muslim population. Neighbouring countries are blamed for domestic problems. The foreign policy is a classic disaster since independence.Who are the people the Govt. of India represents? Do they protest against the mistreatment of muslims by the USA or Israel or do they believe it is not in their country’s interest. It is certainly in their muslim citizen’s interest. India has no peace treaty with any of their neighbours? Do they want to play Hitler’s game of the the forties? Why did India intrude into former East Pakistan territory, was it to save the Bengalis from persecution or? Why did they not stop Siri Lankan army’s genocide aagainst the Temils? Was it to show non interference in the domestic affairs of another country? I am not an Indian and have never been there, but do you see any logic. I do not. How does one make a cohesive Nation from the people of a country? I am not an expert but can sense that neither India nor Pakistan are Nations in any sense? I am sorry if I do upset any one for whom these questions are very sensitive. I do not represent any one nor do I favour any side, and I am equally consious of the difficulty to maintain a neutral position. But for heaven’s sake let us not try to live in the fool’s paradise and consider others as uneducated, illetrate and barabarians and continue to talk above the heads of people rather than with their intelect. The USA is unfortunately a declining colonial power whichdespite its intrusion in foreign lands did not manage to keep them. India is well advised to look east and not make the same mistake again when aligning with the communist USSR. have a nice day.
Rex Minor
RexMinor:
@Everything rotates around chaos and hindu religion.
—what makes u think so? Then with 80% Hindus as majority, one would expect BJP ruling all the time. FYI: BJP is a Hindu nationalist political party in India.
@chaos: Then you are a foreigner to the South Asia. Chaos is an order in the region—India and neighboring countries—it is nothing negative or positive it is just the way it is.
Few Qns:
1. is China a true Nation according to you?
2. is Chinese Army a Nationalist Army
3. Do minorities have equal rights?
@RajeevK
Here are the answers;
.China in my opinion is a great nation and will surpass the super status of the declining USA.
. Chinese army is the Nation’s army.
. In democracy the minorities usually have equal rights. The chinese have not yet completed the democritization process.
what I admire about the Chinese foreign policy is non interference in the domestic policies of other countries. This is very foreign in western countries, mainly on account of their colonial past. I wish India and Pakistan would follow this policy as well.
Rex Minor
@RajeevK
I am not a constitutional expert nor very much fond of percentages. India has a very large muslim population and the Govt is supposed to represent their interests as well. How they do it it is their business, but in foreign policies the leaders should consider this. To have all the muslims as fifth columnist could become a disaster. Their foreign policy should consider this, the British Govt. does with a relatively smaller mulim population. France and Germany currently do not either. It certzainly does not give them any advantage nor can they have complete loyalty from them. A good example, some of the finest footbal players of algerian origin played in the world cup for the Algerian national team, though they were born in France. The political stance of the new bonapart president forced the french born Algerians allegance to Algeria, their grandfather country. If I understand correctly India has more muslims than Pakistan muslim population?
Rex Minor
@Rex Minor,
Before we go any further, can I safely assume that I’m talking to a woman here? The hunch is based on the kind of half-romance half-idealism you usually show about the world order combined with your sweeping generalizations and the “sophisticated” communication gap everybody seems to feel with your posts.
You don’t spend any energy in trying to wake a person who is not asleep in the first place. All I can say is that you have a very warped view of things and I’m better off by not doing anything about it. I’m sorry Rex, I have neither the energy nor any desire to answer your baseless remarks like following:
“Indian leaders are not even trying to make a Nation”
“Everything rotates around chaos and hindu religion.”
“Do they protest against the mistreatment of muslims by the USA or Israel or do they believe it is not in their country’s interest. It is certainly in their muslim citizen’s interest.”
“The Govt. democratically elected show no respect for theirvery large muslim population.”
May be we should wait 10-15 years when you have finished your education (or have matured otherwise) and perhaps then we might be able to communicate.
PS: You remind me of my favorite author Alexandre Dumas who wrote, and I quote him, “All generalizations are dangerous, even this one”.
@Seth
Well said. Sorry, I am not writing a book on this forum. Perhaps you should enjoy your reading A dumas. Your note remind be of the sixteenth century French theoligist Professor who said that since no one complains to god about the insufficient common sense they have, proves that all humans are blessed with equal common sense. In my opinion he was in error!!
Have a nice day.
Rex Minor