Kashmir protests: another tragedy of timing

July 6, 2010

morekashmirAnother three people have been killed in Kashmir in the biggest anti-India demonstrations in two years, bringing the death toll to at least 14 in the last three weeks. You can see some video of the protests in the Kashmiri capital Srinagar here – please watch it and remember that only a few years ago peace had returned to the streets of Srinagar after more than a decade of violence.

While Indian Home Minister Palaniappan Chidambaram has suggested the violence is being whipped up by the Pakistan-based Lashkar-e-Taiba, our correspondent in Srinagar says that many local Kashmiris believe the protests are largely spontaneous.

If that is the case, it is a tragedy of timing. As discussed nearly two years ago on this blog, Kashmir has an entire generation of young people who have grown up knowing only what it is to live in the midst of an insurgency.  Then, after India and Pakistan re-opened a formal peace process in 2004, violence began to drop dramatically (something that has usually gone unacknowledged by Delhi but was obvious to anyone who regularly visited Kashmir).

The sense you picked up was of a shift away from what was at most tacit tolerance for Pakistan-backed militant groups (anyone who questions this should first read Basharat Peer’s Curfewed Night) into a belief in peaceful protests, led by the younger generation. It is that younger generation who are throwing stones today, and seeing their own being killed. That is what makes the latest round of violence in Kashmir so dangerous. If the youth of Kashmir are radicalised anew, as happened when an earlier generation protested against Indian rule in 1989, the cycle of rage begins again.

One of the most telling comments in the latest round of violence in Kashmir came from separatist leader Mirwaiz Omar Farouk, when he said that the protests were not about Muslim Kashmir vs Hindu India. He would not have had to say that before – the Kashmir separatist revolt at the start was always more about nationhood than religion. That he now has to deny the communal undertones highlights how far these have grown.

The latest protests also come as India and Pakistan have begun a tentative attempt at peace-making after a long diplomatic limbo following the November 2008 attack on Mumbai. Their foreign ministers are due to meet on July 15 to take the process forward. Both have an interest in trying to reduce tensions, if nothing else but because the uncertainty over U.S. policy in Afghanistan threatens new instability in the region. Yet neither country will find it politically easy to accommodate each other if Kashmir is going up in flames.

The protests in Kashmir also coincide with some fresh soul-searching in Pakistan over the role of militant groups – some of whom were once nurtured to fight India in Kashmir – following  last weeks suicide bombing of one of the country’s most popular Sufi shrines in Lahore. A perception of “Indian oppression” against fellow Muslims in Kashmir has always fed into popular support for militants fighting for its “liberation” – so in another tragedy of timing, the crackdown in Srinagar is likely to make it harder for those voices within Pakistan who want to win backing against Islamist militant groups.

Anyone who has ever studied the history of India and Pakistan – right back to pre-partition days – will know that their tortuous relationship has been based on misunderstandings and bad timing. And Kashmir has always been caught in the middle. Yet even the most optimistic cannot resist the impression that the regional environment is worsening. 

As one person commented on my last post – albeit in a different context about the relationship between India, Pakistan, Iran and Afghanistan – using language  that perhaps expressed more than a journalist can in thousands of words:

“It is all one bloody mess … isn’t it. Every one is caught in every one else’s web..”

(Reuters photo/Fayaz Kabli)

Comments

India needs to bring in accountability for police acts. Currently the law allows for unlimited freedom for the security forces and they go unpunished by the system whenever they engage in brutal acts. Security forces across most of Asia, Middle East and Africa are brutal. They follow the same methods. None of these countries are angels in this regard.

India should let Kashmiri police deal with their people and keep the security forces confined to the borders with Pakistan, along the LoC. That would help in reducing the stress.

Things appear coincidental. In 1989, a “genuine” struggle emerged in Kashmir out of the blue that led to the influx of Afghan war hardened militants into the valley that burnt it for a decade. Once 9/11 happened, slowly peace began to return to the place. Musharraf was forced to tell his militant cronies that he would be shutting down camps in Azad Kashmir. Now again protets have started out of the blue. Nothing has changed as far as Indian securty’s brutality is concerned. That is why P Chidambaram’s statement that LeT is rattling the cage from behind prior to the next Jihad offensive seems correct. Pakistani military is making the next move with the assumption that the Americans are defeated already and the Taliban will get back to power soon. So Kashmir is being warmed up.

This is going to be a bloody proxy war in Kashmir. It might be a ploy to keep India occupied in Kashmir while weakening its presence in Afghanistan.

Whatever is happening for the innocent civilians is unfortunate. But India has no choice but to hold on to this piece of land at this time due to geo-political reasons.

Posted by KPSingh01 | Report as abusive
 

The Indians seem to have some odd logic when it comes to Kashmir. They emphasize the Pakistani backed nature of the insurgency (and there’s plenty of evidence to back them up) there but they focus on cracking down on the folks who live there rather than working to cut off infiltration and blunt Pakistani influence.

They should be working to push the Army out to the border and fully indigenize the state’s police and security services. Kashmiris are the people best equipped to deal with militant Kashmiris. This way Kashmiris would gain more autonomy too and more confidence about their role in the Indian Union. The current approach is extremely counter-productive.

Posted by kEiThZ | Report as abusive
 

By and large muslims all over the world have a problem living in harmony with people of other faiths. That in my opinion is because of the brand of islam propogated by the current crop of preachers. Everything and anything can be termed as anti islam – like keeping long hair. Unless Islam accepts other religions on an equal footing and learns to see the good propogated by all religions, accept people of all faiths, all efforts to bring peace to troubled muslim areas will be futile.

Posted by rrdas | Report as abusive
 

Those bloody muslims. How dare they protest the seizure of their lands and the killing of their people. They cannot live in peace with anyone in the world. Everybody knows that.

After all, it was the Palestinian muslims who invaded the ghettos of Europe and provoked the peaceful Zionists into counterattacking them in Palestine. The Zionists then had no choice but to ethnically cleanse out all the terrorists. Everybody knows that.

It was those savage Afghan muslims who invaded USSR and provoked the peace loving communists into retaliating by carpet bombing their villages. The communists even went to the extent of gang raping Afghan women in front of their families to teach those savages about the benefits of collectivism. But these Quran thumping ignoramuses did not want to learn anything. Same story with those bloodthirsty Chechens. If these jihadis had’nt butchered their way into Moscow then the Russians would never have attacked them and flattened their country into smithereens.

Not even great powers are safe from this bearded menace. Everybody knows that on September 11 2001, ninteen Iraqi hijackers attacked and destroyed the WTC twin towers. They shouted ‘Long Live Mullah Saddam Hussein’ before they did it. So why are they crying now that the US has liberated their oil fields and sent over a million of them to meet their Allah. Iraq is the most stable and democratic government in the muslim world right now thanks to Americans. Everybody knows that.

As for the Kashmiris, what can I say about those ingrates. The Maharaja did them the supreme honour of buying them for three rupees a piece, which I must remind you is a full rupee more than what he paid for the minority sikhs and hindus. And they did’nt even thank the Maharaja for that. Instead they complained and bad mouthed him when he blessed them with an increase in taxation. Then they had the nerve to try to join with their fellow musla terrorists in the terrorist state of Pakistan even though the honourable Maharaja wanted to join India. When the muslim rulers of Junagadh and Hyderabad wanted to join Pakistan against the wishes of their hindu majority, did secular India object? No, not at all, India very peacfully let them join with their terrorist brothers in Pakistan…everybody knows that.

So why did these Kashmiri terrorists not allow the hindu maharaja from joining secular India? And now they have the nerve to protest because Indian security forces tortured and killed thousands of their men and raped a few thousand of their women.

And check out how silly they are. I mean only an idiot brings a knife to a gunfight but do you know what these Kashmiri terrorists bring to their protests? Absolutely nothing. LOL. And the Palestinian muslim terrorists are even dumber. They actually bring rocks to fight Israeli tanks. LMAO. Dumb muslims, I swear they are the dumbest people in the world. Everybody knows that.

They are great at acting though, thats for sure. After the Iraqi terrorists destroyed the world trade center, these muslims pretended to hold candlelight vigils in Islamabad, Karachi, Tehran and other terrorist safe havens. But the free media of the world saw through their dirty muslim trick and saw the real story, which was those filthy Palestians dancing on that one street in Palestine. They represented how all 1.5 billion muslims felt that day…..everybody knows that.

Unless muslims accept to live under other peoples foot and learn to see the good propogated by occupation armies, accept state sponsored terrorism and the subjugation of all their rights, until then all efforts to bring peace to occupied muslim areas will be futile. Its all Islams fault…everybody knows that.

Posted by Shuqaib.Bhutto | Report as abusive
 

I hope this is bad timing, because different militant organizations have been carrying out their operations in Kashmir in the past. If Pakistan has to resume talks with India then it will have to control the militant organizations.

Posted by SZaman88 | Report as abusive
 

Kashmir is a disputed territory between India and Pakistan, time has now arrived for India to recognize the right of self determination of Kashmiri people and end the occupation of Kashmir. Otherwise another intifada will be underway. Free Kashmir!

Posted by Umairpk | Report as abusive
 

This summer too shall pass.

Posted by Seekeroftruth | Report as abusive
 

Exchange of fire reported at India-Pakistan border

http://www.dawn.com/wps/wcm/connect/dawn -content-library/dawn/news/pakistan/03-p akistan-accuses-india-of-border+fire-ss- 02

ISLAMABAD: An exchange of fire at the Indian-Pakistan border near Pakistan’s Punjab province has killed two Indian troops, and wounded a Pakistani soldier and several villagers, officials said on Wednesday.

Posted by Umairpk | Report as abusive
 

It is no good reffering all Muslims as jihadis.We are peaceful people and remember the past history of other religious people living peacefully under Muslim rule.Indians are always ready to blame Pakistan for their troubles in Kashmir.
But if they are senseble and free from LeT phobia,will realise that to keep people under their occupation by force is no good at all.
Let Kashmiris have a plebicist under UN [as promised by nehru to UN] and of free will and accept the verdict and Free Kashmir from brutal use of force.Then the region will be a peacefull place for ever.
Long live Kashmiris strugle for FREEDOM.

Posted by bahadur | Report as abusive
 

Shuqaib,

While I don’t agree with the argument that Muslims can’t live peacefully anywhere, I strongly disagree with your Islam under attack narrative too.

Several of your examples have more nuance than you are willing to admit. For example would the Chechens have suffered as much has they not launched a violent separatist insurgency? Or the did the Russian Army just come romping through there for fun?

Was the invasion of Afghanistan about Islam? That’s news to me and probably for the Russians. I thought it had to do with the spread of communism (or more appropriately Leninst-Marxism). What does being Muslim have to do with it?

I also notice you left out the struggles where the West helped Muslims. How convenient of you to set aside Kosovo where NATO troops helped break up a country after Muslim insurgents started an insurgency.

If you wonder why there’s no apetite for the world to tackle Kashmir, just look at Kosovo. You know what they say, “Fool me once….”

As for they Muslim world’s sympathies post9/11…how come you don’t cite the surveys that show a majority of Muslims think that 9/11 was a false flag op executed by a bunch of Jews or that quite a few Muslims (even many resident in the West) think that the USA “deserved” it. Given those surveys are we in the West wrong to assume that the Muslim world’s sympathies lie with those that want to kill us?

As for all your other historical grievances. They are just that. And the problem for South Asia is that the region cannot move forward unless they are recognized as such. After all, if you want to settle every historical issue in the region, why stop with Kashmir? Why not fully complete the population transfers of partition? I am sure Pakistan will have no issue absorbing another 160 million Muslims. Why weep only for the Kashmiris?

While I take exception to the argument that Muslims can’t live peaceably with their neighbours, I also take exception to this victimhood narrative that says every conflict with a Muslim must be because of his/her religion. Sometimes there just are other reasons.

Posted by kEiThZ | Report as abusive
 

bahadur,

It’s quite simple really. Ditch the terrorists and you might have a shot. At least you’ll get more global sympathy. Right now, globally, you are viewed as no better than the Tamils with their LTTE freedom fighters. And you know how much sympathy they got in the halls of power after having butchers of people speak for them.

As long as Kashmir harbours terrorists and Kashmiris play footsie with them, the Indians will have a legitimate argument that the struggle in the state is not indegenous and that an independent Kashmir poses a security threat to India as it will become Jihadi central. Show them they are wrong.

As for the plebiscite pledge. That’s out the window. The demographics have been altered significantly. Kashmiri pandits have been ethnically cleansed. And Pakistan has moved in way too many “settlers” on their side of the valley. Not to mention their splitting off, of the Northern areas.

You want a plebiscite? Track down every family who originally lived in Kashmir. Give them the ballots. That’s the only way to have a valid result. Then, as per the original requirements, have Pakistani troops fully vacate the territory (including the Northern Areas) with Indian troops drawing down to a minimal posture as was intended by the UNSC. Do you think it’s possible? If you say no, then you can’t have a plebiscite. Simple as that.

Posted by kEiThZ | Report as abusive
 

http://www.bso-na.org/2010/June/001.html

Baloch leader meets Vice President
Joe Biden, draw his attention to the
Balochistan’s situation.

Dr.Wahid Baloch has met with vice president Joseph Biden and highlighted the colonization and brutalization of Balochi people by punjabis.

If you compare the separatist struggles in Kashmir on one side, Blaochistan and Tibet on the other side ethnic cleansing has been different.

Kashmir muslims have indulged in genocide and expelled the Kashmiri Hindus from their ancestal homeland.

Whereas in Balochistan and Tibet, the native populations are being reduced to a minority status by Punjabis and Han chinese respectively.

Posted by Seekeroftruth | Report as abusive
 

I was once travelling on a bus to Manali with a group of college friends. Amongst other things, we started talking about Kashmir & how great it would be if India & Pakistan can sort out their differences & peace returns to the valley for good. There was an elderly gentleman sitting one row ahead, listening to our conversation & suddenly he turned around & said that Kashmir will never get resolved. I asked him the reason of his pessimism & what he told me has stuck in my head to this day. He said that a dispute between two friends can be resolved & a dispute between two enemies can also be resolved but a dispute between two brothers over their father’s land, who died without making a will, can never get resolved.

Posted by jordan23 | Report as abusive
 

The republic of India has complementary logical explanations, moral upper ground and legal backing to all territorial acquisitions.

This includes Junagarh, Kashmir, Hyderabad, Goa, Bangladeshi enclaves, Forward policy north of McMahon line, Nepalese enclaves, Sikkhim, Gurduspur, Siachen.

All other parties such as Pakistan, China, United Nations, Kashmiri freedom fihgters whether secularist or militant, Kashmiri protesters whether peaceful or violent, OIC, Amnesty International, Asia Watch, Human Rights Watch, BBC, Portugal, Bangladesh, Nepal are ALL WRONG. Indeed it is India that is both right and righteous in every single dispute.

Posted by tupak_shakir | Report as abusive
 

The Islamic Republic of Pakistan has the license to support terrorism around the world in the name of “freedom struggle” through their state actors & famous “non-state actors”. They have the absolute authority to cherry pick the “freedom struggles” they wish to support, as per their interests while completely looking the other way for the ones that are detrimental to their interests.
They have every right to endlessly whine about the action of the Indian army in kashmir & not utter ONE word about the persecution of the uighers by their Chinese friends. They have every right to bring about past ethnic clashes & riots in India and not utter ONE word about their state sponsored genocide of 3 million in east pakistan.
They have every right to bring up non-issues like Goa or Nepalese enclaves & Bangladeshi enclaves while not uttering ONE word about the very real issues of the plight of the Baluchis, Pashtuns, Muhajirs & other minorities in Pakistan.
They have every right to talk about the Indian support of the LTTE in Sri lanka more than 20 yrs ago while their army supports a dozen odd terrorist outfits TODAY, against it’s neighbors.
Since they have this license, everybody needs to just SHUT UP!

Posted by BlackSabbath3 | Report as abusive
 

In the context of Kashmir, it is fascinating to note how ethnic nationalities are facing struggles in the region. …

I was (pleasantly) surprised to read about one such story filled with ethnic pride and their heat warming, brave and inspiring struggle:

http://www.balochwarna.com/modules/artic les/index.php?cat_id=9

If you see the flag of Pakistan in Balochistan, you are either on the Balochistan University campus in Quetta or at the provincial assembly – or, more alarmingly, within metres of a checkpost manned by the Frontier Corps (FC), the paramilitary force that controls the province. Nowhere else in this, the country’s largest province by area, will you see the national flag. On the contrary, flags of Azad Balochistan are a dime a dozen, adorning shops, houses, streetlights and random poles. Schools in the province – even those administered by the government – start their day not with ‘Pak ser zameen’ (the national anthem), but with ‘Ma chukki Balochani’, the anthem of Azad Balochistan. Here, the Pakistani state, army and paramilitary forces are figures of hate, while the sarmachar (Baloch ‘freedom fighters’) are considered heroes.

Ma chukki Balochani!

Posted by Seekeroftruth | Report as abusive
 

Balochistan is a few fair and wise central govt. decisions away from being a fully integrated province of pakistan.

even after indian concessions, investment, kashmir has shown for 60 years, it wants absolutely nothing to do with india.

balochistan is an internationally recognized by the world as part of pakistan.

kashmir is an internationally disputed territory. nobody considers it an integral part of india except one country… india.

Balochistan is a product of bad governance and unfairness.

Kashmir is a full blown liberation, self-determination movement active for 60 years.

a 100,000, mostly civilians have been killed in kashmir by India. 10,000 women have been raped.

Comparing kashmir to balochistan is a fantasy.

Posted by tupak_shakir | Report as abusive
 

The Balochis never ever subscribed to Pakistani ideology/ jihadi terrorist ideology. To the Balochi muslim, a Balochi Hindu is his blood brother and Punajbi muslim is his mortal enemy.

Dr.Wahid Baloch explains this to Vice President Joe Biden in this heart warming letter:

Date: June 25, 2010

To,

The Honorable Vice President Joseph R Biden
The White House
1600 Pennsylvania Avenue NW
Washington, DC 20501

Dear Mr. Vice-President
We, the Baloch people, like Kurds of Iraq, are secular and natural ally of U.S in the war on terror. We support and defend the International Security
Assistance Force (ISAF) in Afghanistan against Taliban and Al-Qaida terrorists who are hiding in sanctuaries provided to them by the Pakistan army
and the ISI. A Balochistan ruled by secular forces is in the interest of the peoples of the world, including the United States.

We urge Obama administration to not support Pakistan, a terrorist State, but extend a helping hand to the Baloch people in Balochistan, their true and
natural ally in the war on terror and against Islamic extremism ans Terrorism.

Thank you,

Sincerely,

Dr. Wahid Baloch, President
Baloch Society of North America
1629 K Street NW, Suit 300
Washington D.C., 20036
Tel: (202) 349-1682
Fax: (202) 331-3759
E-Mail: Contact@bso-na.org
Website: http://www.bso-na.org/

Posted by Seekeroftruth | Report as abusive
 

@ Myra
The following is a digression from the topic of this blog entry. My apologies to you but I feel some of kEiTHZ questions need answering.

@ kEiThZ.

Salaam

You wrote: ” For example would the Chechens have suffered as much has they not launched a violent separatist insurgency? Or the did the Russian Army just come romping through there for fun?”

1) There was no ‘violent separatist insurgency’ by Chechen Muslims before the First Chechen war. There was a Chechen declaration of independence and a Russian attempt to crush that independence using brute force.

2) As for the Russian Army ‘romping through there for fun’, if you do not know what the Russians did to Chechnya’s infrastructure and its civilians (Chechen as well as Russian civilians residing there) then I would urge you to read up on it. There were a few conscientious Russian commanders, but they were either ignored or sidelined in favor of the ‘rompers’.

You wrote: ” Was the invasion of Afghanistan about Islam? That’s news to me and probably for the Russians. I thought it had to do with the spread of communism (or more appropriately Leninst-Marxism). What does being Muslim have to do with it? ”

I think you failed to pick up on the ‘teaching collectivism’ bit I wrote about in that paragraph.

You wrote: ” I also notice you left out the struggles where the West helped Muslims. How convenient of you to set aside Kosovo where NATO troops helped break up a country after Muslim insurgents started an insurgency.”

1) The actions of the west (particularly America) in Kosovo have been appreciated by the Kosovar Muslims and this is one reason why groups like Al-Qaeda have never been able to penetrate that area. The actions of the west have also been repeatedly highlighted by Muslim leaders (including former Pakistani president Musharaf) to show Muslims that the west is not at war with the Islamic world. I agree with Musharaf but for different reasons altogether.

2) Kosovo was an exception, and exceptions do not make the norm. If one compares the net effect of Western policies on the Muslim world, then the balance is overwhelmingly in the negative.

3) I don’t believe it is the West’s responsibility to defend Muslims (unless they fall under their jurisdiction). Having said that, what other ‘struggles’ has the West helped Muslims in besides the belated intervention in the Balkans?

You wrote: ” If you wonder why there’s no apetite for the world to tackle Kashmir, just look at Kosovo. You know what they say, “Fool me once….”

1) You’re telling me that from 1948 till the 1990s, the leaders of the world had a collective premonition that sometime in the future, the Kosovars will rise against the Serbians, and therefore nobody should bring pressure to bear on India to resolve the Kashmir dispute. What’s the connection here and exactly what kind of logic are you using?

2) No, I do not wonder why there is no appetite for the world to tackle Kashmir because there has never been any ‘appetite’ to tackle Kashmir. This conflict will be resolved by the Kashmiris themselves.

Posted by Shuqaib.Bhutto | Report as abusive
 

…continued….

You wrote: ” As for they Muslim world’s sympathies post9/11…how come you don’t cite the surveys that show a majority of Muslims think that 9/11 was a false flag op executed by a bunch of Jews or that quite a few Muslims (even many resident in the West) think that the USA “deserved” it. Given those surveys are we in the West wrong to assume that the Muslim world’s sympathies lie with those that want to kill us? ”

1) I can point out just as many Americans (and Westerners) who believe in the exact same things about 9/11 (false flag, Mossad, chickens coming home to roost etc etc). Given that particular fact, are we in the Muslim world to assume that the west’s sympathies bizarrely lie with those that want to kill them?

2) I wonder if you’ve ever seen the surveys which show that the majority of Muslims do not hate the west (they hate western policies in their region), that they appreciate a lot of western ideals (particularly America’s), that they admire western thirst for knowledge as well as the way civil rights are upheld in western countries (particularly in America). If you had, then you would never have posted this weird rhetorical question.

3) Please read that paragraph again (from my original post). I was talking about how the media zoomed in on one story to the exclusion of all others on that fateful day. Over the years, the unofficial western narrative has transformed those few Palestinians dancing on that ONE street on 9/11 into ‘millions of Muslims dancing on the streets on 9/11′. These imaginary dancing millions have become etched in the western psyche and therefore influence their collective behavior towards us. The candle light vigils and the prayers are all but forgotten.

You wrote: “ As for all your other historical grievances. They are just that. And the problem for South Asia is that the region cannot move forward unless they are recognized as such.”

1) In that case, 9/11, 7/7, Mumbai etc are all ‘historical grievances’ as well. The problem for certain countries is that they cannot move forward unless they recognize these events as such and get over it. Matter of fact, the next time there is a terrorist attack, please follow your own logic and advise your government not to do anything. If you wait a couple of years, then the terrorist attack and the loss of innocent lives will become ‘just another historical grievance’, worthy only of being forgotten. Do I sound patronizing and inhumane? Good…because that’s how you came across to me.

2) Historical grievances which have not been rectified will negatively affect present events which in turn will give birth to future conflicts. Unless historical grievances are rectified, bad blood will continue into the present and spillover into the future. In other words, historical grievances matter. You know what they say, “ Those who ignore history are……”.

3) Afghanistan/Pakistan’s grievance against the Russians was ‘settled’ when we sent the Ruskies packing with their tails between their legs. Do you see any Af-Paks performing violence against the Russians today despite the carnage they caused? I wonder why?

Posted by Shuqaib.Bhutto | Report as abusive
 

Keith:
“I also notice you left out the struggles where the West helped Muslims. How convenient of you to set aside Kosovo where NATO troops helped break up a country after Muslim insurgents started an insurgency. ”

-Keith please stop depicting your Victorian Colonial attitude typical Canadian style. Pakistan is not a colony of Canada and is an independent soverign nation. Firstly.

Secondly, where was the NATO when the coward Dutch Army as Part of UN peacekeeping force surrendered to Gen. Ratko Mladic and turned over the UN safehouses protecting unarmed innocent Bosnian Muslims in 1995 in Srebrenica to the war criminals like Mladic and Radovan Kradic? who murdered them in cold blood. That led to the massacre of Srebrenica.
And just remember the later Pakistan Army deployment in Mostar and Bosnia Herzigovina and the stability and protection they brought to the Bosnian Muslims. Also on record ISI helped ship Anit-tank missiles to Muslims to break the 43 month siege of Sarajevo by Serb artrillery.

Just accept until the west honestly look at the Kashmir dispute and Indian and Pakistani positions, there is no chance of a just resolution.

Posted by Umairpk | Report as abusive
 

…continued…

You wrote: “ After all, if you want to settle every historical issue in the region, why stop with Kashmir? Why not fully complete the population transfers of partition? I am sure Pakistan will have no issue absorbing another 160 million Muslims”

1) This statement of your is eerily similair to the genocidal blackmail that Indians typically resort to when they run out of all the other excuses on Kashmir. In doing so, they take of the mask of secularism and flush it down the toilet. Quite frankly, it is disturbing to know that there are westerners out there who think that ethnic cleansing is a valid counter argument.

2) The framework for partition was as follows
- Muslim majority areas go to Pakistan. Hindu majority areas go to India.
- People may choose to remain in Pakistan or India and become citizens of those countries regardless of faith, or they may choose to migrate.
- The princely states may join Pakistan, India or remain independent.

Population transfers between Pakistan and India continued until around 1954 after which they tapered off to a natural end. Present day Indian Muslims ‘chose’ to be Indian, just as present day Pakistani Sikhs, Hindus and Christians ‘chose’ to be Pakistanis. Therefore I do not understand how having minorities in either country is a historical issue or grievance. Both India and Pakistan typically go out of their way to make sure that minorities are taken care off. Muslims in India are not an ‘issue’ for the Indians (except the Hindutva dharm yodha wannabes), and the Sikhs, Hindus, Christians and Parsees of Pakistan are certainly not an issue or grievance for us (except perhaps the takfiri muslims).

The Kashmir conflict arose from India’s violation of the partition framework (Junagadh and Hyderabad). India has no moral or legal grounds for holding on to Kashmir. Therefore, every decade, it comes up with new excuses to do so (‘akhand bharat’, terrorism, democracy, secularism etc etc etc). These fake issues were not present when the conflict first began, so why bring them in now. There was no ‘terrorism’ from the time of Nehru’s promise till the time that he passed away. Why did India not show any interest in resolving the conflict during that substantial time period? Every Pakistani move towards a dialogue on Kashmir was rebuffed; all efforts to bring them to the table were ignored. When the doors of peace are forced shut, the doors of war are automatically forced open.

You wrote: “While I don’t agree with the argument that Muslims can’t live peacefully anywhere, I strongly disagree with your Islam under attack narrative too.
While I take exception to the argument that Muslims can’t live peaceably with their neighbours, I also take exception to this victimhood narrative that says every conflict with a Muslim must be because of his/her religion. Sometimes there just are other reasons.”

1) Your disagreement won’t change the fact that in the vast majority of recent and present conflicts involving Muslims; it is the Muslims, living peacefully on their own lands (alongside non Muslims) that have been invaded and brutalized.

2) In politics, perception is reality and if the general Muslim perception is that of ‘Islam under attack’ then that’s the way it is. It would be politically unwise to ignore this perception.

Having said all of the above, the fact is that there is only one party to blame for these events. And that is the Ummah. Let me explain that a little more.

The one undeniable lesson history teaches us is that ‘weakness is a sin’. The world as it is set up today follows the law of the jungle. And the law of the jungle states that the weak will perish and only the strong will have their way (the invasion of Iraq is a living proof of that). Vultures do not descend from all directions on those who are strong and capable of fighting back. They only feast on those who are too weak to do so. One cannot blame a vulture for following its instincts. Weakness invites aggression and therefore I do not blame any aggressor.

Would the Darfurians be suffering today if they were well armed and organized? Would the Jews have suffered in Europe for centuries if they had collectively resisted from the start the violence that was directed towards them? I think not.

Allama Iqbal stated that the Ummah was suffering from the malaise of apathy. Before him Sir Syed Ahmed Khan and Shah Wali ullah said the exact same thing. I believe that the Muslims today are fast asleep and we have nobody to blame for that except ourselves. Mistaking this slumber for weakness or death the vultures have descended and have started to peck away. Its gonna be fun to watch what happens once Muslims collectively wake up though. Because once they do….. :) :) :)

Salaam alaikum (Peace be with you)

Posted by Shuqaib.Bhutto | Report as abusive
 

The recent Kashmir turmoil seems very timely. Something is brewing prior to a massive strike by Pakistan based proxy elements. I think Pakistan has assumed that the Americans are on their way out and the region will be theirs soon. So Kashmir is being warmed up in preparation for diverting all elements in the region away from Pakistan and into India. See this article that mentions about intercepting conversations between the elements.

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/India  /Did-separatists-plan-instigate-Kashmir -violence/articleshow/6143623.cms

We Indians know very well the symptoms and can read what is going on underneath. This Kashmir struggle will result in the demise of Pakistan itself as it is already on the brink and a “defeated” US will not back them this time.

Posted by KPSingh01 | Report as abusive
 

Shuqaib

Let’s take your points bit by bit

1) Chechnya. You say there was no violent insurgency just a “declaration of independence.” So you expect the Russians of all people to give up a part of their country without so much as a peep? Come on. And you really think that there was no violent insurgency after the Russian showed up to quell that “declaration of independence” (in essence an official statement kicking off the insurgency).

I will concede that the Russians were extremely heavy-handed. And I certainly don’t agree with their tactics. But lets be clear here. The Chechnyas were neither innocent or naive. You can’t just declare independence, split off a chunk of the country (for grievances by the way that are far less severe than say what Kashmiris or Kosovars faced).

2) Kosovo

You didn’t understand my statement. Several politicians now say “We bombed the wrong side.” Why? After the fact, it’s emerged that it really was the Kosovars who first agitated and started the violence. And since getting independence, they have proven themselves utterly incapable of establishing a decently democratic state with a strong rule of law. There’s a sense that NATO basically handed over a country to a Kosovar mafia.

I can assure you that there is no apetite in the West to support a repeat of that history in Kashmir. Kashmiris who want an independent state had better show that they are capable of running an independent state. Kosovo has become pretty much an Afghanistan on Europe’s periphery. South Asia already has Afghanistan on its periphery. With Pakistan running a not too distant second when it comes to failed states. There’s no apetite for yet another failing state in South Asia. The Kashmiris might gain some credibility if they ditch the terrorists or at least have the terrorists focus solely on Kashmir instead of killing Mumbaikars, NATO troops in Afhganistan and plotting to attack the US homeland.

Posted by kEiThZ | Report as abusive
 

-Keith please stop depicting your Victorian Colonial attitude typical Canadian style. Pakistan is not a colony of Canada and is an independent soverign nation. Firstly.
-Shuqaib.

Sorry. You gotta take the advice with the money. The Americans aren’t the only ones pumping billions into your country.

We do not think of Pakistan as a colony. However, we are genuinely concerned with the direction your country is heading. Especially we find terrorists in Canada, who’ve trained in Pakistan. Shut down Jihad central, and you won’t have to hear from us (or anybody else in the West) ever again.

Posted by kEiThZ | Report as abusive
 

1) This statement of your is eerily similair to the genocidal blackmail that Indians typically resort to when they run out of all the other excuses on Kashmir. In doing so, they take of the mask of secularism and flush it down the toilet. Quite frankly, it is disturbing to know that there are westerners out there who think that ethnic cleansing is a valid counter argument.

2) The framework for partition was as follows
- Muslim majority areas go to Pakistan. Hindu majority areas go to India.
- People may choose to remain in Pakistan or India and become citizens of those countries regardless of faith, or they may choose to migrate.
- The princely states may join Pakistan, India or remain independent.
======

Shuqaib,

You didn’t get my point. If Pakistan was supposed to be composed of the Muslim areas, then what of the 160 million odd Muslims in India today? Does Pakistan only care about Muslims resident in land areas that border Pakistan? Do Pakistanis not care about Muslims in Kerala?

And the framework you cite, can be disputed when it comes to Kashmir. They were independent when the Brits left. Now arguably, you can make the case that since they were a Muslim majority area, that Pakistan’s invasion (and that’s exactly what it was viewed by the UNSC as) was justified.

However, subsequent history has certainly overtaken events from 60+ years ago. How can you argue today that all Muslim areas should be a part of Pakistan when one half of Pakistan’s population post independence wanted no part of Pakistan after the fact? Surely that blunts the argument that the post-independence framework is valid today. At best that means Kashmir has a claim to independence (like Bangladesh). At worst, Kashmir has no claim since the underpinnings of the framework have been thoroughly refuted with post-independence history.

Bub I want to go back to this point about the Muslim majority. Now we know that the demographics have been significantly altered on both sides. But I think it’s fair to say that the valley definitely has a Muslim majority. So with that in mind, where does that leave the rest of Kashmir? If Pakistan’s concern is the right of Muslims only, then surely India can lay similar claims to the non-Muslim parts of Kashmir. This means that India would probably retain Jammu and Ladakh while turning over the valley. Would that be acceptable to Pakistanis?

Posted by kEiThZ | Report as abusive
 

1) Your disagreement won’t change the fact that in the vast majority of recent and present conflicts involving Muslims; it is the Muslims, living peacefully on their own lands (alongside non Muslims) that have been invaded and brutalized.

2) In politics, perception is reality and if the general Muslim perception is that of ‘Islam under attack’ then that’s the way it is. It would be politically unwise to ignore this perception.
….
Would the Darfurians be suffering today if they were well armed and organized? Would the Jews have suffered in Europe for centuries if they had collectively resisted from the start the violence that was directed towards them? I think not.
=============

And this is exactly what I am talking about. You look at everything through a religious lens. And that’s exactly why Pakistan is in the straits it is in today.

Was Chechnya about Muslims or about Chechens revolting? I doubt the Russians would have reacted differently if the Chechens were Christians who declared independence. Did the Soviets invade Afghanistan because Afghans were Muslim or did they invade Afghanistan to impose Communism on the Afghans? You see it as Islam under attack. I see it as an attempt to crush a revolt in the case of Chechnya and an attempt by a superpower to impose a friendly government with similar political values on its periphery. What’s Islam got to do with it?

In the post-cold war era though, the problem as I see it, is that quite often Muslims feel they need their own countries simply to live as Muslims. This insistence on their own states, inevitably brings them into conflict with their neighbours. Chechnya is an example. Kosovo is another one.

And where they have their own state, there seems to be a significant effort to minimize or malign minorities. From Pakistan’s own minorities (there isn’t even token religious rights like allowing non-Muslims to be elected to high public office) to the Darfurians and the Christians of Nigeria.

Now, I can’t say if this is right or wrong. Different parts of the world have different values. But it’s certainly a source of conflict.

As to your last point about weakness bringing harm. It’s interesting to note that Europeans Jews never saw themselves as Jews first until Hitler came along. A German Jew saw himself/herself as German. Judaism was just their faith. That’s why they saw no need to arm themselves and take up conflict with their neighbours. Ditto for the Darfurians. Until the Janjaweed showed up, and they were being hounded out of their homelands, so the Sudanese could keep all the oil wealth for themselves, they essentially saw themselves as part of Sudan. However, just like the Germans, the Sudanese have now emphasized their Arab and Muslim heritage, turning the Darfurians into second class citizens, bringing them into conflict.

Yet, where is it globally that you’d find Muslims under threat simply for being Muslim as the Darfurians are today, for simply being non-Muslim and non-Arab? Is the violence in Kashmir because Kashmiris are Muslim or because there’s separatists trying to break Kashmir off? Just look at the similar problems in India’s North-East and you’ll have your answer.

Posted by kEiThZ | Report as abusive
 

A question for the Pakistanis about Kashmir:

Are Pakistanis concerned about the aspirations of Kashmiris or are they concerned about absorbing Kashmiri territory?

I ask this because it brings up a lot of issues. Pakistani posters always bring up the partition framework. However, Kashmiri separatists emphasize independence rather than union with Pakistan. This brings Kashmiri aspirations and Pakistani intentions and desires into conflict.

What would Pakistan do if Kashmiris demand an independent state? Would Pakistan let AK and the Northern Areas seceede and join an independent Kashmir?

So is it about Kashmiris or Kashmir?

Posted by kEiThZ | Report as abusive
 

@Umair, Shaqaib,

You guys continue to use Islam under attack for every ill that a muslim country has, including your own.

You can’t just accept that there is huge rampant corruption and that is all closely tied with the politicization of Islam. Politicization of any religion is like serving two masters…..you cannot serve two masters and call yourself religious, nor can you call your self a person of god. Nobody is perfect here and nobody is claiming to be, but you have to admit to yourself, that troubles in muslim countries are mostly because of the way that you perceive the problem, yourself and the perpetrator.

I truly is a psychological mindfxxk to use religion in such a politicized manner and claim that the entire religion is under attack. As long as some muslims keep thinking this way, they will always find an enemy to keep making themselves feel that they are under attack and that they are victims somehow of non-muslims.

As strange as that may seem the dominant beliefs in your mind, are the ones that manifest most solidly into actions and reality on the ground…that is the nature of the universe. In other words, much of the misery in pakistan, believe it or not, is because of the collective thoughts and action/inaction of the people that live in Pakistan.

If you understand this concept, you are one step closer to shedding your previous life of ignorance.

Posted by G-W | Report as abusive
 

The entire af-pak region can be changed if even some people start taking responsibility for their own lives, their families, their communities, their places of prayer, their politics and learn to separate Islam from politics.

The two are quite distinct domains and have no place together.

The Army, mullahs and your politicians are choosing to keep the people chained to the shackles of ignorance and the real war is on your mind…the constant attack on your mind, to never let it conceive of, or think of in other ways to never let it step outside of the mental prison, which has been created for you.

Unfortunately, stepping out of a mental prison can be scary because people would not know what to do, if they became aware and self-awakened.

Posted by G-W | Report as abusive
 

On Kashmir, Paks are welcome to continue what they have been doing for 63 years…Indians will continue what we have been doing for 63 years. We are game.

Cheers!

Posted by Seekeroftruth | Report as abusive
 

keith,

pakistanis are not averse to kashmir’s independence. since you are an orientalist, in every sense of the word, you don’t know that. it’s not your fault, this information was likely not available in a neatly packaged report.

you indictment against the islamic civilization regarding wars would be laughable if it wasn’t so tragically misguided. might i recommend a cursory glance at any book on european history? you will find a few savage wars..

Posted by tupak_shakir | Report as abusive
 

for a change my government has done something remotely intelligent:

http://www.dawn.com/wps/wcm/connect/dawn -content-library/dawn/news/business/fair -share-perks-up-hopes-in-balochistan-jd- 01

Again I reiterate, I would not compare balochistan to indian northeast let alone kashmir.

Posted by tupak_shakir | Report as abusive
 

GW,

your thoughts on world’s biggest democracy voting RSS inspired BJP and it’s hinduvta agenda into power?

i don’t keep up with india as much as you do pakistan. isn’t bjp india’s second most popular party even now?

Mullahs have never been popular in any pakistani election (when we have them that is)

however i do agree with your comment about infestation of religion in everything in pakistan and the muslim world in general.

Posted by tupak_shakir | Report as abusive
 

Kashmir majority wants:

First) independence

Very Distant Second) pakistan

There is no 3rd option.

Posted by tupak_shakir | Report as abusive
 

Here is another link that mentions about the triggers emanating from POK.

http://www.hindustantimes.com/Transcript s-show-Hizb-activist-seeking-details-fro m-PoK/H1-Article1-569818.aspx

The protests inside Kashmir appear very sudden and out of the blue. Until recently things had gone quiet as the US clamped down on Pakistan to curb infiltration and sabotage inside Kashmir. India even withdrew 30000 troops from there. Now all of a sudden, stone pelting and violent protests have started. This looks exactly like the days in 1989. Pakistan then termed as a genuine struggle for freedom and began to unleash its Afghan war trained militants into Kashmir. Now that the US has shown signs of weariness and there are talks of “face saving exit”, Pakistan has started the next round of disturbance in the valley. We have been there before. We had handled them well. And we will continue to hold on to Kashmir. The more violence, the more the resistance will be. If Kashmiris want anything at all, they should first try to distance themselves from Pak sponsorship. They are making a big mistake by relying on India’s sworn enemy and expect India to come to the negotiation table. Things are different now. Pakistan will not enjoy the privileges it did in the 1990s. It is more isolated now and is on the brink. India has grown stronger. Kashmiris must think hard and not get emotional. The more stones they pelt at our security men, the more brutal it would become for them. It is time to wave the white flag and sincerely make an effort to distance yourselves from Pakistan, a country that is on its tail spin. If you rely on them, you will go down with them. Taliban will spread into Pakistan and into Kashmir as well. At that time, oppression will get no justice.

Posted by KPSingh01 | Report as abusive
 

Tupak:

@Kashmir majority wants:

First) independence

Very Distant Second) pakistan

There is no 3rd option.

—-Tupak, we know what you want but that does not matter. See what Kashmiris want for a minute before posting. Those who want Kashmir do not have the luxury to wave Indian flags in Kashmir.

Back to you point:
Read this quote and link:

“”Twenty one percent of the population said they would vote for the whole of Kashmir to join India, and only 15 percent said they would vote for it to join Pakistan.”"

http://blogs.reuters.com/india/2010/05/2 9/in-kashmir-nearly-half-favour-independ ence/

Would you be kind enough to tell us May I know why you did not include Very Distant Second) India as an option.

Posted by RajeevK | Report as abusive
 

Cauldron of ethnic identity based struggles are bubbling in the region presently being called “pakistan” …

In heart-warming, moving petition here are Jinnahpuris pouring out their hearts against oppression by Punjabistanis…

http://www.petitiononline.com/mohajir/pe tition.html

To: The People of Karachi
FORMATION OF REPUBLIC OF JINNAHPUR

According to my proposed plan, the Southern port city of Pakistan called Karachi shall become the Republic of Jinnahpur. This proposed formation of Republic of Jinnahpur shall be in line with the anticipated plan towards Pakistan’s disintegration in the best interest of world’s peace and elimination of terrorism……

Posted by Seekeroftruth | Report as abusive
 

RajeevK: “May I know why you did not include Very Distant Second) India as an option.”

Kashmiris love pelting with stones. And they want to join the Islamic paradise called Pakistan where milk and honey flow non-stop.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/jul  /08/iran-death-stoning-adultery

This is the vision they have for Kashmir, where stone age values like beheading, chopping arms and legs, stoning people death etc provide the moral code for the society. If Kashmir goes now, Pakistan will fill it up with its Jihadi monsters. Pakistan is trying to run Taliban style governments in Afghanistan and Kashmir (if it could get in there fast). This way it can evade all accusations of training militants on its soil and claim that Afghanistan and Kashmir are not under Pakistan’s control etc. As far the people of Kashmir or Afghanistan, Pakistan does not really care. It would let them rot so that it can have a vibrant society, where people would follow Sufi style Islam, have rock music groups and fun. Kashmiris are blinded by emotions and do not see what they are walking into.

Posted by KPSingh01 | Report as abusive
 

@KPSingh01

this tupak-shakir fellow is a pakistani, not a kashmiri.

It is unrealistic for kashmiris to dream of an independent state, given it’s size & strategic location. Neither India nor Pakistan will be willing to give back an inch of the territory they control. One of the 2 options would be to make borders irrelevant but given the mistrust & hostility between india & pakistan, this also seems like a pipe dream at this point. That leaves the only option to make the current LoC a permanent border. If Pakistan wants to maintain the status quo & continue the proxy war in kashmir, so be it. India should just wait it out (like it has for 2 decades) & let pakistan bleed itself to death. Pakistan is already a rapidly failing state, let it fail completely.

Posted by BlackSabbath3 | Report as abusive
 

@Shuqaib, Umairpk,

Guys, time and again, Keithz has owned you wholly, lock as stock and barrel. Neither of you guys can touch his arguments, or nor give any true, legitimate reasons for any claims you have.

Keithz, a guy like you really need to be a part of the internal NATO discussions, I think your straight up talking style and strategic approach to things, coupled with your unique training and experience could make you a formidable force in smashing and crushing terrorism.

You should never pass up the opportunity if it comes along.

Posted by G-W | Report as abusive
 

Keithz,

At least for God’s sake send that resume along to Indian Army or Petraus, there could be a tremendous benefit. You would be tremendous asset to anyone one of them if they got you.

Posted by G-W | Report as abusive
 

BlackSabbath03:

I agree with your views. Kashmir today is a geo-strategic issue. India and Pakistan have been fighting over a barren Siachien glacier for more than three decades now. Why would India give up Kashmir when that is the case? Pakistan’s agenda in Kashmir is not for the welfare of Kashmiris. It is to settle the score for the secession of East Pakistan. Pakistan cannot even manage itself as a country and has turned Afghanistan into a graveyard. Extend this further and imagine what it would do to Kashmir. I never trusted that Musharraf fellow. He is the worst double dealer and back stabber. All his back channel diplomacy would have been to walk India into another trap and hit it hard. This is the guy who fought India over Siachien glacier and launched the Kargil war. Why would anyone expect him to suddenly change his plans and work for a solution. Musharraf launched Harkut Al Ansar and Hizb Ul Mujahideen. This guy is supposed to be secular. India simply cannot trust Pakistan. There is only one solution left – declare LoC as international border and abrogate all special privileges to Kashmir. Let it become a normal Indian state. If our leaders had done that over the past 60 years, Kashmir issue would not be there today. Let them pelt stones if they want. Or they can migrate to Pakistan which is specially created for Sunni Muslims following Wahabbi faith. India is not holding Kashmir because they are Muslims. A lot of things have changed over the years and we have to look at things from today’s perspective. I agree with you that India should just stay put and hold on to Kashmir. Pakistan no longer has the support it enjoyed from the Western powers in the 1990s. They are about to fall big time. Look at the number of suicide bombs there. This is a point of no return. This is not the time to make big regional decisions. Kashmiri Muslims can decide if they want to stay in India or not. If they do not want, they can migrate to Pakistan. That is the only option left at this time. Pakistan offers tremendous employment opportunities for everyone. It is the richest nation in the world and the most powerful one at that. Everyone is equal. So Kashmiri Muslims will find it a paradise on earth.

Posted by KPSingh01 | Report as abusive
 

Just a thought,

After checking many images on Google, my opinion is that
stone-pelting is the wrong term to use while referring to Kashmir demonstrations. It is usually BRICK-pelting.

Use of the word stone does not give a good idea to the reader about the size and lethality of the stone being thrown. Bricks, on the other hand, come in standard sizes and one can easily visualize the damage it can cause to its victim.

Ponder over it:
Half-a-brick can kill a man almost every time if taken on head. Same can’t be implied when using the word “stone”.

Posted by Seth | Report as abusive
 

@Keithz,

You know depending on stress levels on both either the Indian or Pak side, based on what I have read, they seem to have about 250,000 minimum soldiers on either side of the Indo-pak border at any one time and this has been as high as 1 million the Indian side, during Kargil, I believe.

You since India will always conventionally outgun and outsoldier Pakistan, they have resorted to this sort of “assymetric” warfare, using Kashmir and other forms of terrorism in the hopes of keeping some sort of strategic parity against India.

In the light of Mumbai, Kargil and other LeT based attacks and the Kashmir violence now, on this basis of wanting to keep parity, through asymmetry, when will this low-level war reach its breaking point? and if it did, what kind of troop response do you think both sides would respond with, especially given that Pakistan is fighting on its western border, using its low-level frontier rangers?

My last point, I do agree with you, the Indian method of response in Kashmir is probably needs to be revised, as it may be causing alienation of Kashmiri’s but i do agree, Indian Army needs to bring the pile driver down on militants in Kashmir, in a surgical manner and increase security alone its border.

Another tactical thing India can do is to get RAW IT to filter all cellular, Facebook and Twitter type traffic to and from Kashmir to root out militants in Kashmir, as many of them are communicating commando style, I have read, using the web.

Pakistan is resorting to stop web traffic to protect Islam, why should India not do much the same thing to maintain security and stability in Kashmir?

Posted by G-W | Report as abusive
 

Violent protests inside Kashmir might be a ploy to draw troops to the interior and then hit on the periphery with militant infiltration. I think the ISI is setting up a massive offensive in Kashmir. Unlike before, they might try to hit very hard this time.

Posted by KPSingh01 | Report as abusive
 

@singh,

As said in my earlier post, the Kashmir unrest is actually Pakistan’s asymmetric warfare upon India. Pakistan did asymmetric warfare using the politicization of Khalistan and at that time the Sikhs were caught in the middle, now they are trying to get Kashmiri’s caught in the middle in the same way.

Another name for assymetric warfare, simply put, is terrorism. Assymetric warfare is a desperate type of war, where the lesser side will eventually lose, but not without killing lots of innocents.

As I said, to bring some rest to Kashmir, the internet and cellular traffic needs to be watched, or even brought down to a crawl. These radicalized youth are drunk on blind rage and don’t know that they are actually caught up in a guerilla war by pakistan upon India.

Pakistan’s goals is to keep asceding land or continue the everlasting fight to dismembering India due to their continued loser mentality over 1971.

I agree India needs to “Drain the swamp” in Kashmir, this referring to a strategic army doctrine and bring Kashmir in as a naturalized state of India and declare the LOC as the new Pak-India border. While in the short term, this maybe very turbulent, in the long run, it would take the wind out of the proxy terrorist’s sails and any subsequent border incursions would be declared an act of war on a sovereign nation, also it will make India more secure and save many lives in the long run and bring about a cessation of Kashmiri terrorism. Pakistan would think twice of misadventures upon India, if the new border were drawn. This may even force Pakistan to fix its own country for good.

Secondly, India needs to more aggressively court the Kashmiri’s and incentivize them to become educated, build more services there, infrastructure and promote more friendship building activities such as cultural exchanges and such. Finally, the border with Pakistan should be sealed with a 30 foot high concrete fence. Those Kashmiri’s who are unwilling to compromise and continue the choice to challenge police and security forces with weapons, bricks and rocks, are not better than common criminals and will accordingly reap what they sow.

From everything I have read, Pakistani’s will keep using the Kashmiris as pawns, as they have already settled most of PoK, standard of life for muslims in PoK is no where near it is in Indian Kashmir. It is time that India set in motion, to bring Kashmir into proper Indian statehood.

Posted by G-W | Report as abusive
 

@singh, here is the UN Resolution of 1948, copied and pasted straight from the UN website:

Since Kashmir has come up again, it is fair for bloggers to be reminded of the past UN resolution regarding Kashmir and Pakistan:

” As the presence of troops of Pakistan in the territory of the State of Jammu and Kashmir constitutes a material change in the situation since it was represented by the Government of Pakistan before the Security Council, the Government of Pakistan agrees to withdraw its troops from that State.

The Government of Pakistan will use its best endeavour to secure the withdrawal from the State of Jammu and Kashmir of tribesmen and Pakistan nationals not normally resident therein who have entered the State for the purpose of fighting.

Pending a final solution the territory evacuated by the Pakistan troops will be administered by the local authorities under the surveillance of the Commission.

When the Commission shall have notified the Government of India that the tribesmen and Pakistan nationals referred to in Part II A 2 hereof have withdrawn, thereby terminating the situation which was represented by the Government of India to the Security Council as having occasioned the presence of Indian forces in the State of Jammu and Kashmir, and further, that the Pakistan forces are being withdrawn from the State of Jammu and Kashmir, the Government of India agrees to begin to withdraw the bulk of their forces from the State in stages to be agreed upon with the Commission. ”

–>What this is saying is, that Pakistan MUST first:

1)withdraw from Kashmir
2)remove all Pakistani settlers from there
3)remove all agitators, militants, fighters, terrorists/Jihadis from Kashmir
4)remove the Pakistani Forces from Kashmir,

THEN

1)India will also remove itself from Kashmir.

As you see, Pakistan is illegally occupying Kashmir and is in violations of the UN Resolution. Instead, Pakistan knows that Kashmir issue will be resolved if they ever move Army out of Pakistani Kashmir.

Pakistan in fact does not want to resolve the Kashmir issue, they could have done so very easily, if they complied with the resolution, Pakistan pulls out and then India pulls out.

It therefore stands that their goals are sinister and devious in nature, that being to use Kashmir as a staging ground for terrorist attacks into India and radicalize the local population to waste their time into a separatist movement as tool to wage the asymmetric war upon India and use its own citizens to attack their own security forces. Their eventual goal is to wreak as much terrorism, damage and dismemberment on India that they can, using any means necessary.

The truth is, that Pakistan never has any intention of ever leaving Kashmir and leaving Kashmiri’s in peace.

Posted by G-W | Report as abusive
 

@Kashmir is a disputed territory between India and Pakistan, time has now arrived for India to recognize the right of self determination of Kashmiri people and end the occupation of Kashmir. Otherwise another intifada will be underway. Free Kashmir!
Posted by Umairpk

—I hope you realize that Kashmir was FREE before your country took a decision to attack it, snatch a piece of it that led to Indians take control of the remaining.

Basically a trouble maker is asking for a solution.

And which Kashmir are u talking about? Just Indian Kashmir or POK also.

Did you ask yourself why Kashmiris in Pakistan would like to have an Independent Kashmir? What has gone wrong in Pakistan model of Azad Kashmir? Pakistan has not killed 100,000 kashmiris so what is the equivalent of Indian atrocities. You may want to tickle your brain over this.

Intifida is a Muslim thing abd till today you have not realized that religion factor is a problem wherever and whenever you bring that in. What does that has to do with Kashmir which has Kashmiris belonging to different religions.

Posted by RajeevK | Report as abusive
 

Ponder over it:
Half-a-brick can kill a man almost every time if taken on head. Same can’t be implied when using the word “stone”.

—– furthermore, if the teenager throwing the 100 pound brick strikes the automatic weapon carried by the indian security force, his finger could touch trigger , the bullet can ricochet off walls and dent the soldier’s helmet.

—– kp, if the only reason pakistan’s kashmir stance is payback for bangladesh, what was the reason for the kashmiri conflict prior to 1971, was it cashmere sweaters?

standard of life for muslims in PoK is no where near it is in Indian Kashmir. It is time that India set in motion, to bring Kashmir into proper Indian statehood.

—– yes indian boots on kashmiri throat must be a wonderful way to live. you fellows are out of your mind.

—- rajeev, even your preferred poll would indicate the majority 45% want independence. if that majority were to rank their options, independence would be first, pakistan second.

Posted by tupak_shakir | Report as abusive
 

G-W,

We have gone over the UN resolutions many times over. We know what it says and Pakistanis also know about it. But they have no respect for any of it. They only want to pick those aspects that suit their needs and have resorted to drumming up enough noise. Most Pakistanis I comes across have no idea what they are talking about. They beat the same slogan repeatedly – stop genocide in Kashmir, hold plebiscite in Kashmir etc. This is what they have been brainwashed into believing. Now they have added the water treaty, India’s Afghan consulates, Balochistan, TTP etc. Pak military is not interested in just taking over Kashmir. It is a big thing for them settling the score over East Pakistan with India. That is all they are after, at whatever cost. They do not realize that it has cost them their very existence as a country. These are very emotional people and are driven by blind rage. They believe in miracles. That is why there has been no attempt to build a normal nation in them. They have no agenda of what to do with Kashmir either, if they get it. Their only goal is to avenge the shameful defeat in East Pakistan. Beyond that there are no plans. They themselves do not have a good set up for comfortable living. How are they going to provide it for Kashmiris. Kashmir will become another strategic location for launching further into India. These guys have nothing constructive in their minds. They believe in might, violence and quick results. They have no patience and compassion for anyone. They showed it in East Pakistan already. All the more reason India should simply refuse to sit for any negotiations on Kashmir with Pakistan. I saw a bunch of pictures in “The Hindu” a few weeks ago where they showed how the brick throwers were assaulting the CRPF men. I wondered who is hurting whom. Kashmir is being rattled from outside again. India has to hold firm and wait it out. There is not much juice left in Pakistan to sustain its grip.

Posted by KPSingh01 | Report as abusive
 

@tupak,

pretend you are a soldier…if some guy was throwing a brick at your head, are you going to defend yourself, with the means and training that you were given as a soldier, or get down on your knees and beg forgiveness for upsetting the brick thrower?

Get real…a soldier is allowed and fully authorized to use any means necessary to stop the assailant, because the soldier has a primary duty of protecting his own self..anybody throwing a brick at a police or soldier is committing an illegal and criminal act and will be punished accordingly.

So when you see guys with bricks in their hands, just realize that this is illegal and criminal behavior.

When that guy chooses to confront a soldier or an officer with such a weapon, they invite the law to do justice upon them, this has nothing to do with muslims or religion, this is basic civil law.

Posted by G-W | Report as abusive
 

@rajeev, even your preferred poll would indicate the majority 45% want independence. if that majority were to rank their options, independence would be first, pakistan second.
Posted by tupak_shakir

–Tupak, well you have been proven wrong that India is NOT an option considered by Kashmiris.

Now you may want to dig deep and actually read the report and will find surprising findings that will prove you wrong second time. Pakistan is not a second option—both by shear percentage and if you add weight criteria into the equation, the numbers looks terrible.

Perosonally speaking that is childish to discuss who is 2nd or 3rd when it is this close. However if you are into ratings then Pakistan is shockingly 3rd. I mean “100,000 killings” by Indian Army and 20yrs of “moral support” by Pakistan, and Muslims being the majority in Kashmir, Pakistan still stands as 3rd (or so close to India)—there must be something terribly wrong with Pakistan and its policies over this period. Time to ‘ponder over”. I am serious.

Does this has to do with Kashmiri fear that Pakistan may sell or gift off a piece to China like they did in the past (Aksai Chin) or something else? After all in the end, it can be described as “done in the best interests of Pakistan”.

Posted by RajeevK | Report as abusive
 

rajeev, redo the poll with only 2 options pak or india then you will find out who is ahead pakistan or india. independence options takes away more from pak-support than indian-support. the minority definitely wants india… no doubt about that.

why do you have indians “killed” in quotes. is there some dispute to this fact that every human rights organization in the world doesn’t know about?

Posted by tupak_shakir | Report as abusive
 

Tupak and all guys:

This is the report I am indicating at my posts.

http://www.chathamhouse.org.uk/files/166 64_0510pp_kashmir.pdf

Here are the numbers: Ref: Table 6, Page#19 in the above mentioned report

Combined % AJK districts plus J&K
Independence 43
To join India 21
To join Pakistan 15

% in J&K
Independence 43
To join India 28
To join Pakistan 2

% in AJK
Independence 44
To join India 1
To join Pakistan 50

Take home message:

1. Equal % of kashmiris from Indian and Pakistani Kashmirs want independence.
28% Kashmiris from India want to join India
50% Kashmiris from Pakistan want to join Pakistan

2. Clearly Muslim Kashmir (AJK being a model) has not worked for Kashmiris and they are split between independence and being with Islamic Republic Pakistan.
In J&K only 2% wants to join Pakistan (Shocking!). Why?

3. If equal % of kashmiris want independence in bith countries, what is Pakistan doing about that? WE discuss India pretty often.

4. Finally, does it not tell that religion-based movement must be stopped?

I am trying to get at the answer. I sensible discussion is expected here.

Posted by RajeevK | Report as abusive
 

i have never heard anyone other than indian complain about uninhabited strip of land ceded to china certainly not kashmiris.

pakistan understands that not every territory that was consolidated by the british belongs to india or pakistan.

neither india nor pakistan can lay claims to burma or nepal or british raj somalia. pakistanis understand that, indians don’t.

Posted by tupak_shakir | Report as abusive
 

Tupak:
@why do you have indians “killed” in quotes
–I am always doubtful of even numbers.

No doubt about the killings. I doubt # hence quotes. # may be higher or lower. Since last 1yr # has not changed must tell u why it must be in quotes.

Posted by RajeevK | Report as abusive
 

Take home message:

1. Equal % of kashmiris from Indian and Pakistani Kashmirs want independence.
28% Kashmiris from India want to join India
50% Kashmiris from Pakistan want to join Pakistan

— My ‘take home’ message:
kashmir is definitely not an integral part of India as claimed by india.

Posted by tupak_shakir | Report as abusive
 

Clearly Muslim Kashmir (AJK being a model) has not worked for Kashmiris and they are split between independence and being with Islamic Republic Pakistan.

— the fact kashmir wants independence is well known to us. to me it is perhaps the only way out of south asia’s misery. 50% is actually an excellent score. if you polled my neighborhood — 99% would be unhappy with pak government. we don’t equate approval of our govt. with patriotism.

Posted by tupak_shakir | Report as abusive
 
 

Tupak:
@— My ‘take home’ message:
kashmir is definitely not an integral part of India as claimed by india.
-My take home message was based on the report. Where do you disagree that India and Pakistan are the #2 and #3 options? Yeah sure you can throw your hands up like you did.

Pakistan turned free Kashmir into a war zone and now Kashmir is split.

@i have never heard anyone other than indian complain about uninhabited strip of land ceded to china certainly not kashmiris.”
–Who else will and should complain? what you gave was part of kashmir. What better way to complicate the situation than gifting a disputed property! so you attach no value to uninhabited land? Could Indian get a piece of yours then?

Posted by RajeevK | Report as abusive
 

@. 50% is actually an excellent score. if you polled my neighborhood — 99% would be unhappy with pak government.”
–The # is 28% in India. Not a stark difference. This despite “100,000 killings” by Indian Army and 20yrs of “moral support” by Pakistan, and Muslims being the majority in AJK. Does it not make you ask question why they want to separate other than a lazy YES.

Posted by RajeevK | Report as abusive
 

@My ‘take home’ message:
kashmir is definitely not an integral part of India as claimed by india
—How Azad is Azad? Why 50% from already Azad JK want to be Azad? May be you also know the constitution of AJK and how leaders are elected—need for Kashmir banega Pakistan oath as pre-requisite and the remainder not allowed to participate. This is from UN report not from some false propaganda site.

@ 50% is actually an excellent score. if you polled my neighborhood — 99% would be unhappy with pak government. we don’t equate approval of our govt. with patriotism.”
—Well, unhappy people fix the country, not vote for another country. Probably these ones are very very unhappy for certain reasons.

Posted by RajeevK | Report as abusive
 

@ —– kp, if the only reason pakistan’s kashmir stance is payback for bangladesh, what was the reason for the kashmiri conflict prior to 1971, was it cashmere sweaters?

Posted by tupak_shakir

There was actually no (or negligable) conflict in J&K prior to 1989. They valley was harmonious & all it’s inhabitants (muslims, hindus & sikhs) lived peacefully with each other. Then in 1989, your army, emboldened by the american victory in the afghan war, plush with american money & weaponary and tens of thousands of idle mujahadeen at it’s disposal, decided to implement it’s policy of ‘bleeding India’ & started the proxy war in kashmir. So, If anyone should be blamed for destroying the peace in kahmir & the lives of kashmiris, it’s your EVIL army.

Posted by BlackSabbath3 | Report as abusive
 

The biggest mistake that India has made in the past 63 yrs, is to give ‘special settlement rights’ to Kashmiris in J&K. While India has been trying to woo it’s kashmiris with special privilidges, Pakistan has been busy altering the map & demographics of PoK by integrating more & more of the so-called “Azad kashmir” into the northern areas & settling more & more Punjabis in PoK.

Posted by BlackSabbath3 | Report as abusive
 

If India would have also settled it’s Punjabis, north Indians etc in J&K and integrated the state into the Indian union, I would imagine that things would be quite different today. But it’s not too late & they should begin the process now. Those who would oppose this action, should be offered free transportation to “Azad Kashmir”.

Posted by BlackSabbath3 | Report as abusive
 

@tupak

pregnant woman throwing bricks: ”

>> I feel like applauding your zeal but I can’t go beyond pitying you. You, gentleman, will post link to a news story published in 2008 to give the impression that it has happened today. Furthermore, its women police checking the curfew-pass of a family who is in medical emergency. How would any other country’s police do it differently?

In toto, your stupidity brings more shame to your cause, no matter if its “right” or “wrong”.

Posted by Seth | Report as abusive
 

Whatever.
We ain’t handing over even an inch of land, piece of dirt in Kashmir to any one. Those who refuse to live peacefully should be asked to migrate to “pakistan”.

Posted by Seekeroftruth | Report as abusive
 
 

Kashmiris believe that all the protests are spontaneous….but we have enough of proofs to suggest that its a well planned action taken from across the border…and Kashmiris are supporting it..http://www.indiapolitiks.blogspot.co m/

Posted by Real_Indian | Report as abusive
 
 
 
 

Interestingly no one talks about the Simla accord of 1972. Even authors like Myra McDonald do not include in their articles. The 1972 accord basically states that the conflict between India and Pakistan are resolved regarding Kashmir and both countries would devote their energies on constructive ways:

Here is the link:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simla_Agree ment

There is an explicit statement I am quoting from the agreement:

“The Government of India and the Government of Pakistan are resolved that the two countries put an end to the conflict and confrontation that have hitherto marred their relations and work for the promotion of a friendly and harmonious relationship and the establishment of durable peace in the subcontinent so that both countries may henceforth devote their resources and energies to the pressing task of advancing the welfare of their people.”

Pakistan simply ignored this agreement between the two countries and started the armed conflict in Kashmir in 1989 right after the Soviets withdrew from Afghanistan.

Here is an excerpt from “Nuclear Deception,” by Adrian Levy and Catherine Clark (pages 181- 182):

“With his connections to the Islamic throng, (Hamid) Gul argued that the madrasahs could be militarized to make India bleed. He had a vision of creating an Army of God, with Pakistan’s religious schools transformed by the ISI into training camps where the instructors would be war-hardened jihadis from Afghanistan and the pupils soldiers of Allah. General (Aslam) Beg agreed and planned to place the training camps out of sight, high up in the hills of Muzaffarbad, the capital of Pakistan administered Kashmir.

Gul recalled: “We wanted to mirror the mujahideen’s success in Afghanistan by sending them into Indian-administered Kashmir to manipulate the Kashmirir people’s anger at India’s refusal to grant them autonomy. We would train the freedom fighters. We would arm them.” It was for Hamid Gul a campaign that worked on every level: turning the screw on India, reviving the Pakistani military, while promoting an increasingly zealous and chauvinistic home-grown Islamic movement.”

Further down the page:

“Gul argued that Pakistan had to wield the (nuclear) bomb that the US enabled it to build, refining missiles and other delivery systems that would leave India in no doubt about Pakistan’s capabilities”

Pakistan started a new conflict in Kashmir in 1989 and has sustained it using global geo-political issues as a leverage. I am very surprised that none of these authors have ever referred to this book or even include Simla accord into their writings. I clearly sense clouding of facts so that a biased view can be projected to support pro-Pakistani views. Some of these people do not realize that cold war days are over. Yet their hearts are still filled with the old memories that put India in the wrong light. Kashmir is not about freedom struggle or Islam. It is clearly a conflict raised to sustain Pakistani military’s hold on power and grip in the region. I have not seen one criticism from these esteemed authors about the wrong-doings of the Pakistani establishment. Everything from the Indian side is declared as “alleged.”

Hope this piece of my comment does not get deleted.

Posted by KPSingh01 | Report as abusive
 

KPSingh,
Your latest post explicitly exposes the hypocrisy of westerners and their support for pakistani terrorism all along. Good work…Keith’s attempts to discredit you…notwithstanding…

Posted by Seekeroftruth | Report as abusive
 

KP Singh:
Good points. you mentioned “Nuclear Deception,” by Adrian Levy and Catherine Clark and Simla Agreement.

Myra:
Really, why would you not mention Simla Agreement in your article? Seriously, keeping quite is one option for you,
Regards

Posted by RajeevK | Report as abusive
 

why is myra, victoria schofield or any other respectable author that does not follow the indian line immediately gets branded as biased?

what motive would these people possibly have to support hapless pakistan?

Posted by tupak_shakir | Report as abusive
 

@why is myra, victoria schofield or any other respectable author that does not follow the indian line immediately gets branded as biased?
what motive would these people possibly have to support hapless pakistan?
Posted by tupak_shakir


Tupak:

R E L A X and
Do not misrepresent Indian poster’s position.

I do not think that asking an author a relevant question can be called branded an author “biased”? The best I can say is that the sentence should have been framed differently.

Both Indians and Pakistani posters have done it. Pakistanis have attacked directly the Reuters author in the past where I had to jump in to say not to shoot the messenger. Indians have exercised this internal control mechanism where one Indian cautioned the other. Would u like to see fine examples from pakistani posters attacking Reuters posters? Just let me know. I will have it for you.

i respect Myra as an author her. In response to her pic she once posted wearing Pakistani jacket and holding a gun(??) at Siachen, I was joking with her why not Indian jacket and Rifle. She promised me to post it and I am getting older waiting for that. All this does not mean we do not respect her as an author and that she works for PA.

khuda hafiz

Posted by RajeevK | Report as abusive
 

Tupak:

Now you can deal with the actual point raised!

Posted by RajeevK | Report as abusive
 

Indian leaders are unlikely to come to terms with the reality of kashmiris. A large number of Kashmiris are living in Europe for several decades now and like Palestinians they are asking for their home land. Pakistan got involved in view of their past failures to take the whole terrotary in their domain.
India wants to habg on to the teerritory as long as they can. From the comments on this forum one notes the Indian people feel attached to the Kasdhmir territory, regardless of the Kashmiri citizens political demands. They are more worried about the safety of the Indian soldiers. The kashmiris are more or less peaceful people and their resistance groups operating in Kashmir are not strong enough. Pakistan military has been stationed on the pakistan side of the border to prevent resistance groups intrusion into the Indian held kashmir. This sruggle is going to last for several decades, and I see a link of their fate with Pashtoons. Sooner than later the Pashtoons are likely to leave their bunkers of the tribal territories in so called Afghanistan and Pakistan and spread across the subcontinent as their forefathers did. They have the means and the weaponry hithertoo unused to defeat the Indian armada, for in my view as long as it exists the peace in the subcontinent is unlikely to come.
Rex Minor

Posted by pakistan | Report as abusive
 

@ Keith

You wrote: ” So you expect the Russians of all people to give up a part of their country without so much as a peep? Come on.”

1) So you expect the Chechens of all people to give up their bid for independence without as much as a peep. Even a casual glance over their history will tell you that they are a fiercely proud and independent people. Just because Moscow invaded and annexed Chechnya (and the surrounding areas) in the 1800s through brute force does not make it a part of Russia. One country or nation becomes a part of another, only when its people willingly want the union.

2) The First Chechen war was not the first time the Chechens had tried to regain their independence. They repeatedly revolted in the 1800s and the 1900s. It took decades of fighting, mass deportations and mass executions before the Chechens were temporarily subdued. The last of these mass deportations occurred I believe in either 1943 or 1944. By this time over a century of Russian atrocities had entered the collective memory of the Chechens. You remember what I had written about the importance of unaddressed ‘historical grievances’. Well, here is more proof of what I said.

3) The Russians DID give up vast chunks of their empire without a peep. Armenia, Estonia, Kyrgyzstan, etc etc etc. They gave those areas up because they were in no position to exert control over them. Chechnya, on the other hand, seemed like an easy target. The Russians thought that by putting the Chechens in their place they would tell the world that they were still strong; that they were still the boss in the region. Instead they ended up with the most humiliating defeat in their history (First Chechen war).

You wrote: And you really think that there was no violent insurgency after the Russian showed up to quell that “declaration of independence” (in essence an official statement kicking off the insurgency).

1) Thank you for validating my original position. There was a violent insurgency AFTER the Russians invaded and performed their ‘humane’ deeds. My original position was that there was no ‘violent separatist insurgency’ before the First Chechen war, which started when the Russians invaded.

2) A declaration of independence is not the ‘kicking off’ of an insurgency as you have falsely imply. Kindly look up their definitions and you will realize that those are two separate things.

You wrote: ” I will concede that the Russians were extremely heavy-handed. And I certainly don’t agree with their tactics. But lets be clear here. The Chechnyas were neither innocent or naive. You can’t just declare independence, split off a chunk of the country (for grievances by the way that are far less severe than say what Kashmiris or Kosovars faced).”

1) What the Chechens went through starting in the early 1800s and throughout the Soviet repression was far, far worse than what the Kashmiris or Kosovars have faced so far. Read up on it or better yet, just ask a Chechen.

2) I will not sit in judgment of whether what the Chechens went through justified a bid for independence or not. The Chechens were in a better position to know that. All I know is that they tried.

3) The Americans under George Washington did exactly what your saying should not be done and that too over far smaller grievances when compared to the Kosovars or the Kashmiris. The next time you meet one of your southerly neighbors perhaps you should tell them to their face that you do not approve of their independence.

Posted by Shuqaib.Bhutto | Report as abusive
 

****continued****

You wrote: ” You didn’t understand my statement. Several politicians now say “We bombed the wrong side.” Why? After the fact, it’s emerged that it really was the Kosovars who first agitated and started the violence. And since getting independence, they have proven themselves utterly incapable of establishing a decently democratic state with a strong rule of law. There’s a sense that NATO basically handed over a country to a Kosovar mafia. I can assure you that there is no apetite in the West to support a repeat of that history in Kashmir.”

1) I can assure you that there has ‘never’ been an appetite in the West (or India) to resolve Kashmir peacefully. The Kashmir conflict predates Kosovo by exactly half a century. The West did not make any substantial effort to bring the conflict to a peaceful end during that time period. Therefore, you cannot use Kosovo to explain why the West is not doing the right thing in Kashmir currently since they have never done anything in the past anyway. Nor do the Kashmiris expect them to.

2) Using bad governance in Kosovo as an excuse for not wanting to do the right thing in Kashmir (today) beats all other excuses I have heard so far. What will the next excuse, the lack of gay rights in Kosovo? Animal rights perhaps?

3) There have been instances where the West has successfully intervened in conflicts with the end result coming out positive. Why are you not using those examples to justify doing the right thing in Kashmir? Why this selective and exclusive focus on Kosovo?

4) Kashmir and Kosovo are two different regions, inhabited by two different ethnic groups, who have vastly different histories. What is the basis of this illogical connection you have created in your mind between Kosovo and Kashmir? What’s the common factor?

You wrote: “ Kashmiris who want an independent state had better show that they are capable of running an independent state. Kosovo has become pretty much an Afghanistan on Europe’s periphery. South Asia already has Afghanistan on its periphery. There’s no apetite for yet another failing state in South Asia. The Kashmiris might gain some credibility if they ditch the terrorists or at least have the terrorists focus solely on Kashmir instead of killing Mumbaikars, NATO troops in Afhganistan and plotting to attack the US homeland.”

1) From 1947-48, till the time Nehru passed away there was no terrorism or any other activity which is being used today as an excuse. Nor was there a ‘Kosovo problem’ which is what you are disingenuously trying to connect with Kashmir. So what was the excuse in the West then? More importantly what was the Indian excuse for not coming to the table to resolve the dispute peacefully?

You wrote: ” With Pakistan running a not too distant second when it comes to failed states.”

1) We are undoubtedly going through a difficult time in our history. But that’s okay. Pakistanis are born survivors. We are a tough and honorable people and we will see these difficulties through to the end.

2) I think you will find out soon enough who has actually ‘failed’ in Af-Pak. A few decades from now you may even realize the true magnitude of that failure when it dawns on you that the end game in Af-Pak effectively marked the start of the Chinese century.

Posted by Shuqaib.Bhutto | Report as abusive
 

****continued****

You wrote: “If Pakistan was supposed to be composed of the Muslim areas, then what of the 160 million odd Muslims in India today? Does Pakistan only care about Muslims resident in land areas that border Pakistan? Do Pakistanis not care about Muslims in Kerala?”

1) Pakistan was supposed to be composed of Muslim ‘majority’ areas plus any princely states that acceded to Pakistan (Junagadh did accede, Hyderabad was about to before the Indian invasion)

2) The 160 million Muslims (minus the ones in Kashmir) are Indian citizens.

3) Pakistanis care about all Muslims everywhere. When our help is required and asked for we go out of our way to provide it (e.g. commandos, weapons, medical supplies sent to Bosnia). We are also one of the largest contributors to UN peacekeeping efforts and have therefore served and defended people regardless of their faiths.

4) We care about Muslims in Kerala (and other parts of India) but it is the duty of the government of India to take care of them because they are citizens of India. When something bad like the Babri masjid or Gujrat incident happens, it is upsetting to us, but it is India’s internal matter.

You wrote: “And the framework you cite, can be disputed when it comes to Kashmir. They were independent when the Brits left.”

1) Incorrect. The partition framework I have cited cannot be disputed because that is what was agreed upon by all parties before the British left.

2) Kashmir was independent but it had not announced whether it would ‘remain’ independent or not. Hyderabad was also independent and was about to accede to Pakistan before being illegally invaded by India. Junagadh was also independent but it acceded to Pakistan and was subsequently invaded by India (essentially an unprovoked act of war on Pakistan).

3) Using coercion and force India took away (from Hyderabad and Junagadh) the options of (i) accession to Pakistan (ii) independence. That basically meant that as far as India was concerned, the princely states had to choose between accession to India or an Indian invasion. Therefore the princely state of Kashmir no longer had the protection of being ‘independent’, since as far as India was concerned, there was no such choice.

4) Even if the maharaja had declared independence, it would be legally invalid since neither Hyderabad nor Junagadh were allowed to exercise that same option. Additionally, since the partition framework was destroyed his so called ‘accession’ to India holds no legality whatsoever no matter how many times India gets it rubberstamped.

You wrote: ” Now arguably, you can make the case that since they were a Muslim majority area, that Pakistan’s invasion (and that’s exactly what it was viewed by the UNSC as) was justified.”

1) Pakistan’s intervention was justified because of the complete destruction of the partition framework by India. We had no choice but to invade given the fact that, as I have pointed out above, the only choice India gave the princely states was accession to India or invasion by India.

2) If Pakistan had not ‘pre-empted’ the inevitable Indian annexation of Kashmir we would not have the part of Kashmir we do today.

You wrote: ” However, subsequent history has certainly overtaken events from 60+ years ago. How can you argue today that all Muslim areas should be a part of Pakistan when one half of Pakistan’s population post independence wanted no part of Pakistan after the fact? Surely that blunts the argument that the post-independence framework is valid today. At best that means Kashmir has a claim to independence (like Bangladesh). At worst, Kashmir has no claim since the underpinnings of the framework have been thoroughly refuted with post-independence history.”

1) The underpinnings of the framework have not been refuted; they have been altered using time delay, double standards and brute force.

2) By adopting the line of reasoning above, you are acknowledging that Indian actions from independence up till now are valid, which essentially means that you believe that aggression, subversion and terrorism are valid foreign policy tools. I find this to be unbelievably disgusting not to mention hypocritical since the majority of your time seems to be spent in blaming and badmouthing Pakistan for doing the exact same thing. Pakistan was a target of Indian aggression and terrorism from its very birth and that is what essentially shaped post-independence history.

3) Since the Kashmiri ceasefire, the Pakistani position has not followed the line that ‘the Muslim majority areas should go to Pakistan’. This was a part of the wrecked partition framework. Since the ceasefire, Pakistan has held the position that Kashmir is a disputed territory and its fate is to be decided by a free and fair plebiscite. Further more, the UN agrees with us. Whenever the parties involved become serious they can sit down and work out the modalities (troop withdrawal, format and timetable, peacekeeping force composition etc etc) so that the Kashmiris can finally have some peace.

3) India’s territorial claims w.r.t China are based on colonial era maps and treaties regarding the region. According to your line of reasoning, Indian claims on those territories are negated because since the time of those maps and treaties, large chunks of territory have broken away from India itself and want absolutely nothing to with it anymore (Pakistan and Bangladesh).

4) If the events of 71 had any impact whatsoever on the status of Kashmir then that would have been reflected in a change in the UN designation of Kashmir away from a disputed territory. Why has that not happened yet?

You said: “ Bub I want to go back to this point about the Muslim majority. Now we know that the demographics have been significantly altered on both sides. But I think it’s fair to say that the valley definitely has a Muslim majority. So with that in mind, where does that leave the rest of Kashmir? If Pakistan’s concern is the right of Muslims only, then surely India can lay similar claims to the non-Muslim parts of Kashmir. This means that India would probably retain Jammu and Ladakh while turning over the valley. Would that be acceptable to Pakistanis?”

The most acceptable solution is to follow the spirit of UNSCR 47 and hold elections/plebiscite on the whole of Kashmir and let the people decide their own future.

Posted by Shuqaib.Bhutto | Report as abusive
 

skipped all long posts/rants.
Wars-didn’t work
terorism-didn’t work
lies/propaganda-didn’t work
blogging now-will not work

Indian economy started taking off precisely since Kashmir jihad was started in 1989.
“Pakistan ” has tanked, literally the wheels are coming off. barely surviving through begging and getting ransom money for terrorism.

Posted by Seekeroftruth | Report as abusive
 

***continued***

You wrote: ” And this is exactly what I am talking about. You look at everything through a religious lens. And that’s exactly why Pakistan is in the straits it is in today.”

1) Pakistan is facing difficulties today due to economic mismanagement, destruction of law and order and a lack of social services.

2) If anything, it is our ‘religious lens’ that keeps the ordinary Pakistani focused on doing the right things and this keeps the country chugging along. For example, an independent study by the Agha Khan Foundation discovered that Pakistanis are the most charitable nation on earth (on a per capita basis). We have less wealth when compared to other nations, but we willingly share more of it. This is besides the obligatory religious charity that we pay every year. Were it not for this charitable nature, Pakistan would not be able to take of its poor.

You wrote: “Was Chechnya about Muslims or about Chechens revolting? I doubt ……………………. with similar political values on its periphery. What’s Islam got to do with it?”

1) My very first post on this blog entry was in response to a bigoted moron who was maligning my people and our religion. I used extreme sarcasm to put a few points across to him and perhaps you have read too much into it.

2) I do not believe that a war is being waged deliberately against any religion. There are currently a lot of conflicts in and around the Muslim world but I believe they initially have more to do with geo-politics than religion. However from the defenders point of view they inevitably take a religious color. You have pointed out how Jews saw themselves as Germans first until the Nazi oppression. It was only then that they fell back on their faith because it gave them the strength to suffer and resist. Apply the same logic to Muslims in Chechnya; Kashmir, Palestine etc.

3) The world obeys the law of the jungle. When you factor in the overall weakness of the Muslim world and the strategic location of Muslim lands which are filled with unextracted resources, you basically have a recipe for a very long period of war and turmoil in the Islamic world.

4) It is irrelevant whether you and I believe that there is no war against Islam. As I’ve said before, in politics the general perception determines reality. So if the majority of Muslims hold this belief then decision makers in the East and West better pay attention and factor it into their politics. In this case, ignorance is definitely not bliss.

Posted by Shuqaib.Bhutto | Report as abusive
 

It is Indians – all Indians, all 1.1 billion of them – who will decide the fate of Kashmir. Not a few million Kashmiri muslims full of hatred towards the kufr democracy call India and hatred towards kufr hindus – which they demonstrated by ethnic cleansing their Kashmiri Pandit brothers 2 decades back.

Who are the 1 million Indian soldiers who are fighting Kashmiri separatists, killing them, sending them via speed post to their 72 virgins ? Sons of farmers, small time businessmen, traders, school teachers in rural India and semi-urban India. You kill one, 100 more will compete to take his place.

Posted by Seekeroftruth | Report as abusive
 

shuqaib,
wonderful rebuttal to the orientalist. you have the knowledge, intellect and energy to set the record straight. Shabaash, shabaash, luggay ruho!

Posted by tupak_shakir | Report as abusive
 

It is Indians – all Indians, all 1.1 billion of them – who will decide the fate of Kashmir. Not a few million Kashmiri muslims full of hatred towards the kufr democracy call India and hatred towards kufr hindus – which they demonstrated by ethnic cleansing their Kashmiri Pandit brothers 2 decades back.

Who are the 1 million Indian soldiers who are fighting Kashmiri separatists, killing them, sending them via speed post to their 72 virgins ? Sons of farmers, small time businessmen, traders, school teachers in rural India and semi-urban India. You kill one, 100 more will compete to take his place.

—- It is this attitude of Indians that even if you are a peace-leaning individual, it makes one want to teach this hegemonic monster a lesson. when a kashmiri reads this, he is simply emboldened.

Posted by tupak_shakir | Report as abusive
 

My previous post was copy and paste from another blog. It looks like Tupak is enjoying it. Here is the rest…

“Kashmiri separatists and their friends like Shivam and the rest of the gang who populate this website are not fighting the “Indian state” or the “Indian government”. They are fighting the Indian people. The Indian people. All 1.1 billion of them.

You think you can beat us ? Try it. Try your best to defeat the Indian people. Lets see what you got. Can you beat the Indian people ? Let us see.

Infact you have been trying for 2 decades. With a lot of support from across the border. But with no success. So try harder, if thats possible. We look forward to it.”

Posted by Seekeroftruth | Report as abusive
 

1. hegemonic monster a lesson.

2. luggay ruho!
Posted by tupak_shakir

===

1. 63 years of “teaching lessons” have taken to you now where you are..in rags with a begging bowl!! The fact you still think you are “teaching lessons” only reflects your megalomaniac lessions.

2. Is this the chaste Hindi you said you are capable of?

Posted by Seekeroftruth | Report as abusive
 

typo..megalomaniac delusions.

Posted by Seekeroftruth | Report as abusive
 

@seekeroftruth

Your anger, although justified, is somewhat misdirected. The culprit here is not kashmiri muslims but the ‘failed terrorist state’ of Pakistan. Kashmir was peaceful until Pakistani terrorists started crossing over & the people who killed kashmiri hindus & sikhs were not kashmiris but Pakistani punjabis. Don’t confuse Pakistani ranters like this tupak_shakir fellow with Indian kashmiris. They can rant & whine all they want but they DON’T speak for kashmiris, who have absolutely no love for Pakistan. The only villain here is Pakistan!

Posted by BlackSabbath3 | Report as abusive
 

Kashmir was peaceful until Pakistani terrorists started crossing over & the people who killed kashmiri hindus & sikhs were not kashmiris but Pakistani punjabis. Don’t confuse Pakistani ranters like this tupak_shakir fellow with Indian kashmiris.


I agree Blacsabbath. I don’t write things like that, it was copy and paste from another blog.

It is not a coincidence all the 10 terrorists who came to Mumbai were Punjabis.

Posted by Seekeroftruth | Report as abusive
 

They (pakistanis) can rant & whine all they want but they DON’T speak for kashmiris

— I agree with you 100%. Let us hear from kashmiri blogs/authors/magazines/diaspora/editori als instead.

Posted by tupak_shakir | Report as abusive
 

ethnic diaspora are speaking:

http://www.pashtunistan.net/vzwatch.php? id=1

Posted by Seekeroftruth | Report as abusive
 

another source could be the kashmiri flags being waved in london during pak/australia match everytime boom-boom hit a boundary…

what are these ISI planted agents doing at a cricket match?

Posted by tupak_shakir | Report as abusive
 

ethnic diaspora are speaking:

http://www.pashtunistan.net/vzwatch.php? id=1

— these are kashmiris?? nice subject change.

Posted by tupak_shakir | Report as abusive
 

Shaqib Bhutto:

“Pakistanis care about all Muslims everywhere. When our help is required and asked for we go out of our way to provide it (e.g. commandos, weapons, medical supplies sent to Bosnia). We are also one of the largest contributors to UN peacekeeping efforts and have therefore served and defended people regardless of their faiths.”

Lies repeated a thousand times begin to resemble truth. If Pakistanis cared about fellow Muslims, why were they massacred in East Pakistan? Do they not matter because it is in the past? How conviniently you are window washing facts!

Did Pakistanis raise hue and cry when Chinese brutally suppressed the Uighur Muslim agitation? I did not see even on Pakistan raise a hair on that.

I have not seen Pakistanis send in commandos and mujahideen to fight for Kurdish Muslims who have been seeking independence from Muslim Turkey and Iraq. Do they not count as suffering Muslims? Saddam Hussein dropped chemical weapons on them.

When Afghan men, women and children were oppressed by the Taliban, without any human rights and took them back to stone age, what were you Pakistanis doing? If it is all right for fellow Muslims to suffer at the hands of a brutally primitive Taliban, why is your military fighting a Taliban in South Waziristan and FATA?

Be honest. You guys are hypocrites. You have no special love for Kashmiris because they are Muslims. But you do have special hate for Indians and that is why Kashmir is burning.

“We care about Muslims in Kerala (and other parts of India) but it is the duty of the government of India to take care of them because they are citizens of India. When something bad like the Babri masjid or Gujrat incident happens, it is upsetting to us, but it is India’s internal matter.”

But East Pakistan does not matter. Uighur Muslims do not matter. In Kerala, the Muslims get along very well with fellow citizens in general. Kindly do not inject your jihadi poison there. In India, a Pathan can be the number one movie star and can make a movie called, “My name is Khan.” In Islamic Pakistan, Ahmadis and Shia Muslims will need to adjust themselves to the brutal treatment of Sunni Muslims. Fellow Muslims in Balochistan can be slaughtered at will to keep them under control. But India cannot keep law and order in Kashmir. Come on, do not expose your double standards more. We all know what your countrymen are up to.

Posted by KPSingh01 | Report as abusive
 

tupac-shakir: “another source could be the kashmiri flags being waved in london during pak/australia match everytime boom-boom hit a boundary…

what are these ISI planted agents doing at a cricket match?”

No. But the ISI sowed the seeds of alienation and hatred in 1989 when the last Soviet tank rolled out of Afghanistan. It takes years for hatred to grow and establish its roots well. Then it does not matter where the Pakistani flag flies. There is so much poison injected by the ISI into the soil that Pakistanis have to play their home cricket matches in England. Have you ever given it a thought? Or you also fell for the ISI injected poison and believe that RAW is behind that.

Posted by KPSingh01 | Report as abusive
 

what are these ISI planted agents doing at a cricket match?
==
Tupak, you are very entertaining. In 1948 if Sheikh Abdullah had chosen to wave Pakistani flag we wouldn’t be here discussing this. And in 1965 when Pakistan Army launched “Operation Gibraltar”, the Kashmiris sided with Indian army and helped them capture the infiltrators. LOL! Incovenient change of subject?

And after you had surrenedered with 90,000 pakistani soldiers to be POWs at the mercy of India, Bhutto begged Indira Gandhi not to insist on declaring LOC to be international border.

Your empty bravado doesn’t impress us! You couldn’t take even a piece of dirt in 1999 either. LOL!

Posted by Seekeroftruth | Report as abusive
 

kpsingh,

if you are interested in an answer i think i have. of course we care for muslims. what pak authority did to bengal is unforgivable. but we people of pakistan love bengalis, always have, always will. the sense of ummah might not be strong among nations but it is among people. we don’t want to see anything bad happen to uighurs, kurds etc.

but you can’t compare them to kashmir. kashmir are our kinfolk. that is why we care for them more. is this really THAT hard to understand? we think we are the same people. only indians can deny the links kashmir has with north pakistan as opposed to india (which had to connive with mountbatten to steal gurduspur, the only link with India) the cowbelt (no offense) has nothing in common with india. kashmiris culture, looks, style is similar to northeast pakistanis.

you love your family first, your extended family next etc.

Posted by tupak_shakir | Report as abusive
 

tupac-shakir: “another source could be the kashmiri flags being waved in london during pak/australia match everytime boom-boom hit a boundary…

Could the people waving those flags happen to be Mirpurias from Pakistan, who have polluted places like london, bradford & birmingham and who generally clean the toilets at heathrow & live in filthy paki ghettos?

Posted by X_factor | Report as abusive
 

t is Indians – all Indians, all 1.1 billion of them – who will decide the fate of Kashmir. Not a few million Kashmiri muslims full of hatred towards the kufr democracy call India and hatred towards kufr hindus – which they demonstrated by ethnic cleansing their Kashmiri Pandit brothers 2 decades back.

Who are the 1 million Indian soldiers who are fighting Kashmiri separatists, killing them, sending them via speed post to their 72 virgins ? Sons of farmers, small time businessmen, traders, school teachers in rural India and semi-urban India. You kill one, 100 more will compete to take his place.

Your anger, although justified, is somewhat misdirected. The culprit here is not kashmiri muslims but the ‘failed terrorist state’ of Pakistan. Kashmir was peaceful until Pakistani terrorists started crossing over & the people who killed kashmiri hindus & sikhs were not kashmiris but Pakistani punjabis. Don’t confuse Pakistani ranters like this tupak_shakir fellow with Indian kashmiris. They can rant & whine all they want but they DON’T speak for kashmiris, who have absolutely no love for Pakistan. The only villain here is Pakistan!

—- Too late for damage control. your murderous intentions for kashmiris were known well before your alleged copy and paste. disgusting.

Posted by tupak_shakir | Report as abusive
 

Could the people waving those flags happen to be Mirpurias from Pakistan, who have polluted places like london, bradford & birmingham and who generally clean the toilets at heathrow & live in filthy paki ghettos?

— More indian venomous bile spewed at kashmiris. who is full of hate, you or us?

Posted by tupak_shakir | Report as abusive
 

upac-shakir: “another source could be the kashmiri flags being waved in london during pak/australia match everytime boom-boom hit a boundary…

what are these ISI planted agents doing at a cricket match?”

No. But the ISI sowed the

— I knew the ISI was involved. who is delusional, you or us?

Posted by tupak_shakir | Report as abusive
 

shaquib bhutto: “Even if the maharaja had declared independence, it would be legally invalid since neither Hyderabad nor Junagadh were allowed to exercise that same option. Additionally, since the partition framework was destroyed his so called ‘accession’ to India holds no legality whatsoever no matter how many times India gets it rubberstamped”

Distortion of facts at best. Hyderabad was ruled by a Nawab over a majority Hindu population and it was surrounded from all sides by a Hindu majority population. From a practical stand point it makes no sense to leave and island in the middle of a Hindu majority nation. It was not contiguous to any portion of Muslim majority states. If it was, it could have had an argument for joining Pakistan. The agreement of partition emphasized the need for states to be contiguous to Muslim majority regions. It was not the case for Hyderabad. And India, after taking over has turned this place into a hitect haven. It has one of the best international airports in the world. And no Muslim there is complaining or dejected.

In the case of Junagadh, it had a Nawab and a Hindu majority. A plebiscite was indeed held and based on the voltes, the Nawab went to Pakistan and Junagadh joined India.

In the case of Kashmir, Pakistan did not send any legal party to go in and take over. Had they sent their military in, may be things would have been different. But as always, cowards try to hide behind tribals, non-state actors and barbarians to cover up their acts. And they have been doing this all these years. So the tribesmen ran into Kashmir and engaged in pillage, plunder and rape. India did not interfere even then. It only did so under an official term, when the Hindu king ran to India for help. India told him clearly that it could not act unless it was an officially declared Indian territory. The Hindu king immediately signed an instrument of accession making Kashmir an Indian territory. Now India was justified in protecting its territory and sent its troops to drive the barbarians out. India was to hold a plebiscite after driving them out of all of Kashmir. This is when Pakistan sent its military in and it resulted in a stalemate. Neither country had the money or resources to pursue a full blown war and agreed to a ceasfire. Nehru was the one who went to the UN and not one Pakistani leader went. It was the UN resolution that explicitly states that in order for a proper plebiscite to be held, Pakistan had to withdraw its troops from all of Kashmir. India was to remove its troops after Pakistan had fulfilled its part. Pakistan never did because in 1949, the people of Kashmir, after having seen the Pathan barbarians, would have wholeheartedly voted in favor of India. They had no security to survive on their own at that time. Pakistan knew what it had done. So it decided to wait it out. In 1965 Ayub Khan did the same thing and the locals caught the tribesmen and handed them over to Indian authorities. So Ayub Khan launched a military offensive. There is no need to go further into the history. Simla Accord was signed in 1972 and Pakistan has failed to honor it. In 1989, it launched the agitation and unrest in Kashmir that has continued to this day. And Pakistanis think that conditions have been set up favorable for the Kashmiris to come to them. So they are demanding a plebiscite, ignoring everything else in the resolution and treaties. Pakistan has gotten used to violent means to achieve quick results. And India’s grip has been frustrating to them.

Kashmir’s resolution can be looked at if Pakistan withdraws its troops from Azad Kashmir, removes all terrorist training camps from there and brings in UN observers and troops to man that place. India will then reciprocate its part of the resolution. All of India has to vote on any deal on Kashmir. And in today’s India, no one will vote for a secession of Kashmir. Things have changed and years have moved on. Pakistanis will need to stop living in the past and look forward. Let us see if they can manage their country first. They have already set it on fire and on top of that they want more territory. It makes no sense to give up Kashmir when Pakistan itself is on the brink. An independent Kashmir will be like an independent Afghanistan. ISI will run it using its militant units and Talibanize the whole region. Swat is bad enough. Let us not turn the valley into another mud hole.

Posted by KPSingh01 | Report as abusive
 

who is full of hate, you or us?

Posted by tupak_shakir

Who cares about who has more hate!

Bottom-line: Keep the activities of your state & non-state terrorist actors, restricted to within your failed state & I can assure you that nobody will give a cr*p about you or your country. It’s as simple as that!

Posted by X_factor | Report as abusive
 

In the case of Junagadh, it had a Nawab and a Hindu majority. A plebiscite was indeed held and based on the voltes, the Nawab went to Pakistan and Junagadh joined India.

– I love the summarized treatment given to junagarh. did the nawab not PUBLICLY accede to pakistan? also isn’t it curious that ALL 3 principalities ended up with innocent india on the basis of one contradictory logic or another? what a convenient miracle. your logic is a slippery slope where you indians always end up with additional territory!

the tribals were allied with the kashmiris. the mahraja had confiscated weapons from kashmiri muslims and given it to hindus. kashmiris asked tribal for help in the form of arms.

Posted by tupak_shakir | Report as abusive
 

Hyderabad has a fabulous airport! lol. who cares?

Posted by tupak_shakir | Report as abusive
 

It was not the case for Hyderabad. And India, after taking over has turned this place into a hitect haven. It has one of the best international airports in the world. And no Muslim there is complaining or dejected.

—- News from 2 weeks back about “hitect haven”

Indian riot police fired rubber bullets and used teargas to disperse Hindu mob during anti-Muslim riots that continued for the fourth consecutive day on Tuesday despite imposition of an indefinite curfew in the southern Indian IT hub of Hyderabad.

Posted by tupak_shakir | Report as abusive
 

At the time of the British withdrawal from the Sub-continent and its partition, into India and Pakistan, the numerous princely states like Kashmir, Hyderabad and Junagadh were given the option to join either India or Pakistan. States in which rulers were from the same religion as their populace had no trouble deciding. Hindu states acceded to India and Muslim states naturally went to Pakistan. However in the aforementioned states the rulers belonged to a different religion than that of their respective populations and there was a clash of interest. The Muslim rulers of Hindu Junagadh acceded to Pakistan and that of Hyderabad wanted to remain independent. But the Indian army soon overran these states and annexed them. ?The Hindu Maharajah of Muslim Kashmir wanted to remain independent but his people wanted union with Pakistan, which had come into existence as a result of a union of the Muslim majority areas of pre-partition India. Maharajah’s refusal to do so led to disturbances and widespread protests and his subsequent flight from his capital. His subsequent attempts to effect a crackdown failed and he turned to India for help, which immediately invaded the state (27 Oct, 1947). Later the Indians claimed that the Maharajah had acceded to India. There was no public comment from the Maharajah.?However as Alistair Lamb, a journalist of world repute, reports in his in-depth study of the dispute (Jammu & Kashmir; summary of which is available as “The myth of Indian claim to Jammu & Kashmir”), the chronology of events as reported by the Indian government leading to the signing of the “Instrument of Accession”, is fraught with obvious inaccuracies and lies. In fact, to date, no satisfactory original of the “Instrument of Accession” has been produced. Realizing the dubious nature of the ‘accession’ would spark world-wide protests, Indians declared that the “Instrument of Accession” executed by the Maharajah was “provisional” and subject to a “reference to the people”. Indeed in a broadcast on ?All-India Radio on 2nd November 1947, the first Indian prime minister, Jawaharlal Nehru pledged “We have declared that the fate of Kashmir is to be ultimately decided by the people. That pledge we have given, and the Maharajah has supported it, not only to the people of Kashmir but to the world. We will not and cannot back out of it”. Similar statements were also given by him at other forums, including the Indian parliament, and are on record ?Sir, how ironic and sad is the fact that this pledge, given by the first prime minister of world’s largest democracy and further mandated by the United Nations, as is clear from the statement the President of Security Council of the UN made on 28 January, 1948, remains unfulfilled to this day 46 years later. The above mentioned address by the President of the Security Council reflected the various General Assembly and Security Council resolutions which emphasized that the accession of Kashmir to either India or Pakistan shall be decided by a fair and impartial plebiscite conducted under the aegis of the United Nations. The forceful subjugation by Indian troops was rejected by the Kashmiri people and this has resulted in constant upheavals and revolts against the Indian occupation in the last four and a half decades. This problem has caused two out of three Indo-Pakistani wars. Now this uprising has reached a decisive point and India has resorted to deploying 700,000 troops (50% of its total army and greater than the entire Army of neighboring Pakistan) against the civilian population of that small state which numbers less than 4 million people. ?even this horrifying imbalance of 1 soldier for every 6 Kashmiris (majority of whom are old men, women and children) has failed to suppress the freedom movement. Kashmir is under direct President’s rule since 1990, after the state legislature was dissolved (the federally appointed governor had admitted that the Kashmiri legislature had a history of rigged elections). The nature of State-sponsored terrorism is exemplified by such unbelievable laws as “The Armed Forces (J&K) Special Powers Bill (1990), which have been passed by the parliament of world’s largest “democracy”. This Bill grants authorization to members of Indian Security Forces to “fire upon or otherwise use force, even to the causing of death against any person” without fire orders. 130,000 people have been brutally murdered by the Indian Security Forces in the past 20 years and thousands more have been intimidated and terrorized. Pakistanis believe this is state-sponsored terrorism. The Indian security forces have flouted all norms of civilized conduct. Kashmiri youths have been murdered in cold blood in fake encounters and Kashmiri women of all ages were and are gang-raped in the prescence of their families. International human rights organizations and the international press has been refused entry into the State by the Indian government. They can only visit the ?These human rights organization like Amnesty International and Asia Watch constantly report of indescribably inhumane treatment meted out to Kashmiris in government run torture cells and elsewhere. ?While the world has responded to the Bosnia and Kuwait, it has so far failed to act to stop an even greater problem of abuse of human rights and mass genocide of Kashmiris by an invading army. It seems that commercial interests have taken precedence over the dignity of human life.

Posted by tupak_shakir | Report as abusive
 
 

Q: How many resolutions have so far been adopted by the Security Council on Kashmir? How many of them clearly spell out the prescription for the settlement of the dispute?
A: The Security Council has so far adopted 18 resolutions directly or indirectly dealing with the Kashmir dispute, the latest being resolution 1172 adopted in 1998, which while addressing the nuclearization of South Asia urges Pakistan and India in its para 5 to find mutually acceptable solutions that address the root causes of tensions (between them) including Kashmir.

Q: India says that the resolutions on Kashmir have lost their relevance. It further contends that the resolutions are not binding on it. How far is this true?

A: Legally and politically it is not correct. No UNSC resolution can lose its relevance unless the Security Council adopts another resolution calling for its supercession for whatever reasons. This has been confirmed by the UNSG in a Statement on 6 January 1994.??Politically, the resolutions on Jammu and Kashmir have become even more relevant because of the on-ground political situation in Jammu and Kashmir where a legitimate freedom struggle is being suppressed by the Indian army and the situation now poses a grave danger to international peace and security.??India charged Pakistan of committing aggression against India. But it based its complaint on article 35 of Chapter VI of the UN Charter which relates to the “Pacific Settlement of Disputes” and not Chapter VII which deals with acts of aggression. Subsequently, India tried to evade the provisions of the resolution adopted by the Security Council saying that the resolutions were passed under Chapter VI and not under Chapter VII and as such its recommendations were not binding on it.??Contrary to India’s distorted logic, under international law all UNSC resolutions which confirm agreements reached among the parties to a dispute-as was the case in Kashmir- become legally binding on all parties concerned- in this case India, Pakistan and the UN.

Q: What decision did the Security Council take in its resolutions?

A: Through its resolutions 47 (1948), later reaffirmed by resolutions 51 (1948), 80 (1950), 91(1951) 122 (1957), the UNSC decided that the final disposition of Jammu and Kashmir will be made in accordance with the will of the people expressed through a UN supervised plebiscite.

Q: Why was this decision not implemented?

A: UNSC resolution 47 of 21 April 1948 called for “the withdrawal from the State of Jammu and Kashmir of tribesmen and Pakistani national not normally resident therein” and the reduction of Indian forces in the state to “minimum strength required” in order to facilitate a plebiscite. The Security Council modified its decision by resolution 98 of 23 December 1952 which provided for synchronized reduction of troops on both sides of the ceasefire line to 3000 to 6000 on the Pakistani side and 12000 to 18000 on the Indian side. Pakistan agreed, India did not. India’s reluctance to demilitarize the State of Jammu and Kashmir was confirmed by Sir Owen Dixon, Head of the UN Commission for India and Pakistan (UNCIP), in his report to the Security Council on 15 September 1950. He sated that, “in the end I became convinced that India’s agreement would never be obtained to demilitarization in any form or to provisions governing the period of plebiscite of an such character, as would in my opinion, permit the plebiscite being conducted in conditions sufficiently guarding against intimidation and other forms of influence and abuse by which freedom and fairness of the plebiscite might be imperiled”.

Posted by tupak_shakir | Report as abusive
 

Tupak
Let’s summarize the discussion here:
1)We have difference of opinion on historical narratives, ideology of nationhood and so on.

2) Your wars, terrorism, lobbying, instigating street violence, propaganda(lies), blogging haven’t changed India’s position.

3)You are committed to entertaining Indians here.

Cheers.

Posted by Seekeroftruth | Report as abusive
 

@we think we are the same people. only indians can deny the links kashmir has with north pakistan as opposed to india (which had to connive with mountbatten to steal gurduspur, the only link with India) the cowbelt (no offense) has nothing in common with india. kashmiris culture, looks, style is similar to northeast pakistanis.

Posted by tupak_shakir

Another delusional but humorous distortion of facts!

Who are these “northeast pakistanis” that kashmiris are similar to?

Punjabis – similar to indian punjabis, not kashmiri
Pashtuns – afghans & pathans, not kashmiri
Sindhis – similar to indian sindhis, not kashmiri
Muhajirs – originally from northern india, not kashmiri
Balochs – same as Balochs from iran, not kashmiri

That only leaves the kashmiris living in PoK, which are app. 1% of the pakistani population.

So, indian kashmiri muslims have nothing in common with you except their religion, which they also have in common with the 150 million Indians.

Posted by BlackSabbath3 | Report as abusive
 

“Mirpur Azad Kashmir breeding ground for suicide bombers & Terrorists”

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=97IES3jFO g0

Posted by BlackSabbath3 | Report as abusive
 

Bravo Blacksabbath3!

Pashtuns – afghans & pathans, not kashmiri

—–Want to live in free and united Pashtunistan!

Sindhis – similar to indian sindhis, not kashmiri

—-Want to live in Sindudesh
Muhajirs – originally from northern india, not kashmiri
—-want to live in Jinnahpur..

Balochs – same as Balochs from iran, not kashmiri
—-want to live in Free Balochistan

That only leaves the kashmiris living in PoK, which are app. 1% of the pakistani population.
—–oppressed people!

So, indian kashmiri muslims have nothing in common with you except their religion, which they also have in common with the 150 million Indians.

—-chakka mara!!

Posted by Seekeroftruth | Report as abusive
 

Horrifying data of the Kashmiri situation:

http://abodeofthesaints.blogspot.com/201 0/03/ethnic-cleansing-in-biggest-prison-

Posted by tupak_shakir

Great source. Another self styled Pakistani e-journalist who goes by the name ‘CHINAAR’ lmfao!

Posted by BlackSabbath3 | Report as abusive
 

Language – don’t forget language…

Kashmiri or Koshur is an Indo-Aryan language with about 4.5 million speakers in India, Pakistan and the UK. The Kashmiri alphabet was adopted from the Urdu version of the Arabic script.

Religion same

Looks same.

speaking of Geographical continuity — reason for india to roll over junagadh and hyderabad. geographically kashmir is much more contiguous to pakistan than india especially without the theft of gurduspur.

majority of pakistanis look like the beautiful kashmiris.

majority of indians don’t look like kashmiris.

kashmiris have aryan looks and majority indians have australoid features.

In response to questions over why the demographics of Kashmir have changed (Kashmir is now estimated to be 64% Muslim.), he reminds readers that it is estimated that over 4 million Muslims have fled Indian occupied Kashmir since 1947. Despite the exodus, civilians in Indian controlled Kashmir still have great ethnic similarities to Pakistan, as noted by famed historian Richard Reeves, in Passage to Peshawar describing his experience in the region: “When I crossed from peshawar to Azad Kashmir, in Pakistan, to Kashmir in India – across the disputed northeastern border established after the countries’ 1948 war – the people looked the same. They should have, because many of them were cousins of Pakistanis and practiced the same religion.”

Posted by tupak_shakir | Report as abusive
 

Great source. Another self styled Pakistani e-journalist who goes by the name ‘CHINAAR’ lmfao!

meri jaan, before lmfao, please note chinaar is a real full-blooded kashmiri. why are you people so paranoid?

Posted by tupak_shakir | Report as abusive
 

it is silly to provide proof kashmiris and north pakistan similarities…

if you want to believe that kashmiris are like tamils then go for it…

Posted by tupak_shakir | Report as abusive
 

tupak-shakir is exposing his racist views as he is running out of ideas: “Language – don’t forget language…

Kashmiri or Koshur is an Indo-Aryan language with about 4.5 million speakers in India, Pakistan and the UK. The Kashmiri alphabet was adopted from the Urdu version of the Arabic script.

Religion same

Looks same.”

Now I understand why East Pakistanis were slaughtered. They do not look like North Pakistanis – fair complexioned, “Aryan” like, tall, well built, have I left anything else? What this means is that in the land of milk and honey, anyone who does not resemble the Punjabhi looks can be treated like second class citizens and can be slaughtered if needed.

For all the claims of Muslim origins of Kashmir, its very name comes from Kashayp who was an ancient sage belonging to the “Hindu” system. You guys have not re-written Kashmir’s history yet with new lies – Kashmir was suffering from the Hindu king’s tyranny. So the people begged the masculine Pathans to come and inject some Pathan blood into the population. While the Pathans were busy with Kashmiri women and boys, the wily Hindu military landed and drove them from there without even allowing them to finish their act. So Pakistan is committed to completing the rape of Kashmir that was left off in 1948.

Sorry, but attitude like yours makes the Indian resolve even stronger. Keep at it. Let us see who falls apart. It is only a matter of time.

Posted by KPSingh01 | Report as abusive
 

It should read as Kashyap in the above comment.

Posted by KPSingh01 | Report as abusive
 

tupak sahkair: ” India has kept its army in Kashmir to maintain hostile relations with Pakistan because of the formers rejection of the “two-nation” theory that created Pakistan.”

This clearly shows you are still living in the past and have nothing to offer for the present or the future. Those leaders and people who did not believe in the two nation theory are dead and gone. That entire generation is gone. Now we have a third generation which does not really care if Pakistan is one nation or ten nations. The only thing that Pakistan brings to the mind of this generation is that of a rogue state that has no agenda to exist as a normal nation and is owned by a military. To this generation, Pakistan looks like an organized group of bandits, ready to harass others and make a living out of it. Other than that, no one has any interest in your country. Keep it and burn it. Nobody really cares. We are here in this forum because we do not want lies to be projected in public domain. There are lot of gullible readers who can be misled by negative campaign.

Posted by KPSingh01 | Report as abusive
 

Sorry, but attitude like yours makes the Indian resolve even stronger
-
couldn’t agree more KPSingh. Sigh..I have to scroll down(without reading them ) tupak’s latest outbursts to respond to Singh’s very enlightening post.

Posted by Seekeroftruth | Report as abusive
 

November 5th and more specifically November 6th is remembered for the massacre of lakhs of Muslims at Jammu by Hindu fanatics in the year 1947, post-partition of India. An organized genocide of Jammu Muslims was carried out by them in all areas of Jammu. Muslim Women were abducted and raped. Men and children were massacred, and the weapons to carry out the carnage, swords and rifles, were provided by the Dogra Army. Local Police and administration acted as a mute and willing spectator. The Muslims were massacred by the same ruler who was supposed to be their savior. Lakhs of Jammu-city Muslims were made to assemble at parade ground on the promise of safe passage to Sialkot. They were herded like cattle in many trucks, and brutally killed near Samba and Kathua borders. No mercy was shown to these defenseless persons by the people and administration of Jammu. We too need a poem for each such heinous crime to narrate the pathetic tales of woe and heart-rending happenings of such massacres perpetrated by either the Hindu fanatics at Jammu or by Indian Occupation forces at Kashmir. We need to keep these wounds afresh and not let them heal lest we may forget the sacrifices of our lakhs of martyrs and start endorsing the Indian occupation and their puppet regimes in our valley.

- kashmiri blogger

Posted by tupak_shakir | Report as abusive
 

Bro, we need more Pakistani brothers like you to help us continuously highlight our pain/misery/trauma/debauchery/cruelty/at rocities/state sponsored terrorism/ at the hands of Indian Terrorist army/government.

I once had to sit outside on the road adjoining our locality for 72 hours alongwith approx 3000 other civilians with no food/water/blankets as BSF conducted house to house searches and paraded us in front of Mukhbirs(Informers) to ascertain whether we needed to be interrogated further, My cousin who is the most harmless individual that I know of was picked up, tortured for 15 days and left half dead on a road after we paid a heavy bribe of 80,000 rupees to a BSF captain. HE (THE CAPTAIN) knew that my cousin was innocent but extortion was the order of the day n my aunt sold her jewelery to get the amount for the bribe. The sad part is that Indians think their army/government/administration are beyond doing anything wrong and that’s why they keep branding us all as Terrorists and wrong doers.

Brother, I am proud of the fact that we still have people like you on our side and as long as we Kashmiris believe in GOd, we will continue highlighting our pain/anguish/trauma/struggle against the Indians. Sadly the World today is polarised against Muslims but Justice will come our way……IT HAS TO.

– kashmiri blogger

Posted by tupak_shakir | Report as abusive
 

The enemy’s most vicious and diabolical weapon is rape. They know the value we have for the virtue/sanctity of our sisters above life/material. This is what makes our blood curdle. Each barbarian attack on the cleanliness and morality of our beautiful and honorable women is felt in the entire world from srinagar to muzzafarabad to Islamabad to Karachi to Kabul to Jeddah all the way to the Maghreb. As horrifying as this may sound, All kashmiri women in IoK should carry a cyanide pill. (I say this with a tear in my eye). Reading stories on Kashmiri blogs has brought me much closer to not only Kashmiris but has given me a whole new appreciation of the freedom I enjoy deprived to my brothers and sisters in the valley.

– kashmiri blog

Posted by tupak_shakir | Report as abusive
 

I agree with all of the above but I believe our biggest and strongest advantage would be a strong/powerful/prosperous Pakistan. We Kashmiris need Pakistan to stay strong and prosperous, In my humble opinion that should be our first goal…..everything else comes second. And any leadership like that of Musharaf/Zardari who sold everything to the Indians and got nothing in return must be vehemently/ferociously discouraged.

– kashmiri blogger

Posted by tupak_shakir | Report as abusive
 

SAAM- Evil deceitful REASONING.

DAAM-MONETARY ALLUREMENT to Enemy combatants.

DAND- Severe PUNISHMENT to even women and children amongst the enemy.

BHED-CREATING DIVISIONS on the basis of region, caste, religion and anything base.

The deceitful Indians have used all forms of the chanakya niti in Kashmir and still keep coming up with new versions of the same old niti. On this post, I want to concentrate on the blackout of news emanating from Kashmir by the extremely biased Indian media. The Indian media especially major channels like NDTV,Star News, Zee news, aaj tak etc selectively filter news to suit the interests of the Akhand Bharat pogroms. Human rights violations by the slum dog army which are a daily occurrence in J&K are conveniently discarded when it suits the Indians and if news against the interests of Kashmiri freedom fighters deserves a mention, the Indian slum dogs will give it coverage for months on end. This secular media caters to the selective mindset of the majority of the Indian populace who believe that Kashmir is their Atoot Ang and therefore all Kashmiri Pakistanis should leave and move over to Pakistan. The slimy Indian journalists are so cunning in their debauchery that when interviewing freedom fighters and pro India corrupt Kashmiris, they will side with the corrupt Kashmiris and give them more airtime so that their biased indianised views are heard completely and will cut short the responses of pro freedom Kashmiri leaders.One does not have to be super intelligent to understand the bias in the presentation of media stars like Barkha Dutt, Vikram Chandra, Karan Thapar, MJ Akbar and many other Indian media stalwarts.

Therefore the question that I keep on asking myself continuously is that how can we Kashmiris counter this media blackout and come out winners?, how can we teach the slumdogs a lesson at their own game? Is there a particular regimen that we should follow in order to let the world know how a pseudo-democracy like India really works? How can we let the west know that what the Indians are harping about Kashmir is totally wrong and untrue and they need to hear us Kashmiris on this issue?

I am very confused about how we Kashmiris can tackle this problem against overwhelming odds, I mean we are dealing with an enemy that prefers that 30% of its indigenous aboriginal population starves in the hinterland yet it should have enough soldiers on the ground in Kashmir to keep the millions of Kashmiris imprisoned in the largest Concentration camp that history has ever witnessed i.e. INDIAN OCCUPIED KASHMIR

– kashmir blogger

Posted by tupak_shakir | Report as abusive
 

After former Yugoslavia, it is India’s turn to naturally disintegrate (I cannot wait until the day when we can finally refer to India as “former India”). Just imagine, had the former unnatural federation of balkan states, called Yugoslavia, not unravelled, we would still be witnessing the grotesque bloodshed that the Serbs perpetrated during the 80′s and 90′s.

The war in former Yugoslavia resulted in a genocide perpetrated by the Serbs against Bosnians, which parallels what the Nazis did to minorities. In one instance, Serbs sequestered 5000 Bosnian Muslim men, and shot them execution style–all the while, the world stood by silently.

In comparison, India has massacred ten times more Kashmiris, and the same–if not worse–horrors are being unleashed by them on Kashmiris and yet the world is again standing by silently.

Over a 100,000 martyred Kashmiris, mass graves, mass rapes, kidnapping, murders, torture–all perpetrated by India; what else do the Kashmiri have to suffer through to get the world’s attention?

Not only must the world censure India for it’s heinous acts in Kashmir, the world must also move toward policies that call for India’s disintegration. They should do this to ensure world peace. The Balkans is a peaceful region now only because Croatia, Serbia, Macedonia, Bosnia-Herzegovina, and Kosovo are independent of each other, instead of being hobbled together to form an unnatural federation called Yugoslavia. Allowing Yugoslavia to function as a federation of unwilling states would have been a crime against democratic principles and a crime against humanity–and we would have witnessed hundreds of thousands more deaths. The world community took decisive action, and thus prevented more horrors. Similarly, each state that seeks secession from India must be allowed to declare independence in order for there to be peace in South Asia. The similarities between former Yugoslavia and the forced union of states called India are self evident.

India is a country that should never have come into existence in the first place. It is an amalgamation of states with entirely different ethnicities, religions, languages and cultures that would have never come together naturally, freely, in a democratic way. The only reason why it exists within its current borders is that first the Mughals and later the British conquered successive smaller nations to create this monolith called India–held together then and even now by sheer military power and untenable repression.

Currently, India is a federation of unwilling states–an unnatural entity which will crumble under its own weight of repressive policies. A country standing on the might of its illiterate, poverty stricken, ignorant, and gullible population to subjugate Kashmir and other states seeking freedom is a crime against all humanity. The Indians are using their only source of power–the sheer number of their military, whom they recruit straight out of slums–to subjugate secessionist states, and also to occupy and invade neighbouring states such as Kashmir.

Assam, Jharkand, Punjab, Sikkim, Hyderabad, Maharashtra: just to name a few states where there are strong secessionist sentiments and active groups seeking secession for their respective states. This unnatural amalgamation of ethnically disparate regions would never have come together to form any sort of federation that would require them to relenquish the sovereignty of their states.

This unnatural imperial leftover of a mess called India has caused millions of deaths if we add up the casualties of India’s suppression of all the secessionist movements in Assam, Punjab, Jharkand, and Kashmir combined. Is it worth to let this exercise in modern day imperialism to survive without threat of more deaths, more misery, and more subjugation of peaceful freedom seeking people? Above all, is it humane to witness India’s grotesque tactic of befooling their gullible, poverty stricken population by spending billions upon billions on their military when a majority of Indians cannot even get a decent meal or clean drinking water?

India must disintegrate for the sake of world peace and humanity. Any more “wait and see” approach chosen by the world community will only result in more deaths, mass graves, mass rapes, and torture perpetrated by the most hideous of all countries in the world–India.

– kashmiri blogger

Posted by tupak_shakir | Report as abusive
 

Kashmiri demonstrators urge Pakistan to leave Kashmir

http://sify.com/news/kashmiri-demonstrat ors-urge-pakistan-to-leave-kashmir-news- international-jkmk4bjieif.html

“People of Jammu and Kashmir hitherto have been keen in speaking against Indian role in Jammu and Kashmir and having demonstrations against India, but it looks tide has turned.

“People of Jammu and Kashmir have seen true intentions of Pakistan and feel no hesitation in standing outside High Commission of Pakistan and shout ‘Pakistani forces out of Kashmir’. ‘Pakistan ka jo yaar hai – ghadaar hai ghadaar hai, Ilaaq ka jo yaar hai Ghadaar hai, meaning who so ever is friend of Pakistan is a traitor….who so ever is for accession is a traitor.

It was interesting to note that some pro Pakistan Kashmiris were also present to show their support for this picketing, and for the first time they spoke out against Pakistani policies with regard to Kashmir. They said they were deeply disappointed with policies of Pakistan; and wanted to show their anger and frustration.

Demonstrators shouted Zardari jee ye Kashmiriyoun ke saath Ghadaari hai, meaning what you are doing is treason to Kashmiris. They also said Geelani jee hamain ye ghulami qabool nei…. Bacha bacha kat maray ga Kashmir sooba nei baney ga, meaning Prime Minister Gilani we reject this slavery – reference to a new package on Gilgit and Baltistan. They said every Kashmiri child will die but Kashmir won’t become a province of Pakistan.

“Demonstrators got really angry when Pakistani High Commission even refused to accept a petition from respected Kashmiri leaders representing various political parties. ‘This is like rubbing salt in our wounds’, said Dr Shabir Choudhry, Spokesman of Kashmir National Party.

Posted by RajeevK | Report as abusive
 

Tupak_shakir,

It’s sad that you harbour such fantasies. It’s like a man who hopes his neughbour’s marriage falls apart so he can steal his neighbour’s wife. What lessons of charity must you have learned in your youth.

One quibbling detail you ignore. Yugoslavia fell apart when Tito died. They needed a Strongman to keep them together. India’s had democracy for awhilr now and the risk of them coming apart seems to be decreasing.

If you looked are the Failed States index, Pakistan is at a significantly higher risk than India of coming apart. You should worry about that before daydreaming about the Balkanization if India.

Posted by kEiThZ | Report as abusive
 

@After former Yugoslavia, it is India’s turn to naturally disintegrate (I cannot wait until the day when we can finally refer to India as “former India”).”
—Posted by tupak_shakir

—Tupak, first off you are a liar that you are a Kashmiri. 2nd we know what Pakistan and “certain” (God Bless Kamran Shafi and Nadeem Paracha!!!) Pakistanis want. Does that matter? If you want to wish, wish something positive. Even before u wish Pakistan Zindabad say India Zibndabad. Because Pakistan is because India is. You wish for your Pakistan sake that Indian does not disintegrate. India is no Pakistan that it can take a shame like Bangladesh. You guys are getting used to defeats and insults and one more does not matter to you.

Posted by RajeevK | Report as abusive
 

http://alaiwah.wordpress.com/2010/01/26/ ahrc-kashmiris-disappearing-in-azad-kash mir/

Read this Asian Human Rights Commission report what is happening to Kashmiris in POK.

AHRC: Kashmiris Disappearing in Azad Kashmir

“There are reports that dozens of people are missing after their arrest by the intelligence agencies, operating in Pakistani part of Kashmir, the Azad Kashmir.

“It is reported that the people were arrested when they left the Jihad (holy war) inside Indian held Kashmir or stopped providing information to the intelligence agencies about the movements of people across the borders of the Pakistan.

“The majority of the disappeared persons were residing along the control line, a border line between India and Pakistan, dividing disputed Kashmir, which stretches up to 350 kilo meters. The people residing along the control line are able to enter Indian Territory for their business and they were used by the intelligence agencies as their couriers.

“The intelligence agencies particularly, the ISI, is accused of training and sending people inside Indian held Kashmir for Jihad or providing information of militants working inside other part of Kashmir.

“The family members of the disappeared people are also stating that when people, who worked for intelligence agencies, leave the Jihad and return to their normal lives they are nabbed by the ISI and shifted to unknown places as punishment for not working in the interests of national security.

“There are also reports that some missing persons, who were sent to collect information from Indian Kashmir, were also hired for smuggling liquor and other Indian items when they come back to Pakistani Kashmir after completing their assignments.

“During the past six months, the whereabouts of 15 people arrested by the security forces are not known. They were arrested by security persons in plain clothe from different parts of the Tehsil Kotli along the Indian borders. Among them are six persons who were trained in the camp at Solna village, Kotli and had left the holy war. The family members of Altaf, Qadeer, Qasim, Mushtaq, a resident of refugee camp at Solna area, Kotli, who were disappeared after their arrest by security forces, say that they were told by the local office of ISI that the persons are with them and will be released soon. However, to date no one has been released.

“The political parties, particularly the United Kashmir Peoples National Party (UKPNP), claim that the people were previously trained for holy war for across the border.

“One person named of Sher Khan was killed in the month of November 2009 during his custody. He was involved in the abduction case of Rabia Saeed, the daughter of Mufti Saeed, former chief minister of Indian held Kashmir and was sentenced along with five persons in Sri Nagar.

After his release he came to Pakistan and resided in the Solna area and was picked up, allegedly by the ISI, as was told to his family, and kept there for more than one year. In November his bullet riddled body was found in bushes.

“Jehangir, son of Sabir, resident of Charhoi, Kotli sub district, was arrested by intelligence officers in March 2009, since then his whereabouts are unknown. A writ petition of habeas corpus was filed before the Azad Kashmir high court but there is still no news about him. His family was told after his arrest that he is in the local ISI office and will be released soon.

“Amjad, son of Mohammad Khan, resident of Leepa tehsil, Muzafarabad district, was serving in the Pakistan army as soldier and was arrested in September 2009 by persons from the security forces, who introduced themselves as ISI, and since then his whereabouts are unknown. The reason of his disappearance is not known but it is generally said that it is because of his work in favour of families of disappeared persons. Once he also sent to other part of the Kashmir as Mujahid.

“Mohammad Aslam, son of Jan Mohammad, resident of Cherhoi, Kotli sub district, was arrested in July 2009 and has been missing since. His family says that it was informed by the security personals that he is with ISI but he has never been allowed to meet his family.

“Akram, son of Abdullah, resident of Khoi Ratta, Kotli district has also been missing for seven months. The security persons embarked at his house and identified themselves as personal from ISI. He previously worked for security forces providing information from Indian side of Kashmir about the working of militants inside Indian held Kashmir afterwards he left the volunteer job of informer for intelligence agencies.

“Masood, resident of Khoi Ratta, Kotli district, has been missing since May 2009 after his arrest by the plain clothes persons, who informed the family that they were from ISI. He was previously Mujahid and was trained for holy war.

“Mr. Kabir Hasan Shah, resident of Sandok, Neelum district, was whisked away in October 2009, allegedly by the ISI personnel and was kept incommunicado for more than three months on charges of making telephone calls from passing bye telephone able wire which belonged to ISI. He was released in the second week of January 2010 after severe torture. The officials of ISI have taken assurance from the family for his release he will not talk anybody on his disappearance. He did not know that the telephone cable was in the use of ISI. He used to talk with his girl friend through the line. He was an activist of United Kashmir Peoples National Party (UKPNP).

“Mr. Naveed Ahmed Khan, another activist of UKPNP, was arrested in the month of November allegedly by the officials of ISI, on the accusation of taking photos of Jihadi training camps in Pallandi, Sudhanti district. He was kept in the custody of the ISI for more than two months and was interrogated for taking photos in the area where training camps are operative. He was released on January 19, after no pictures of the training camp were found in his possession.

“The disappearances by the state intelligence agencies have become a common phenomenon in Pakistan since the war on terror. The intelligence agencies enjoy impunity because of their direct link with Pakistan armed forces and no state institution or authority has the power to bring them before the law. The intelligence agencies have freedom to launch the Jihad in side neighbouring countries and for that reasons they hire members of the local population and send them for holy war in the name of Islam. In the province of NWFP, according to different human rights organizations, more than 1000 persons are missing and most of the families of the victims blame the intelligence agencies for arresting the persons and their disappearances. In Balochistan, where there is a strong nationalist movement, the people also blame Pakistani intelligence agencies for the disappearances of more than 4000 persons. Many persons from Balochistan province, who were kept incommunicado in military torture cells, testified before the courts that they were arrested by the ISI and military intelligence, the MI.

“The Asian Human Rights Commission urges the parliament and its human rights committee to hold an inquiry in to the incidents of disappearances in the Azad Kashmir, the Pakistan part of the Kashmir, where people were used as the Muhajid (holy warriors) or informers by the intelligence agencies. It is shocking to know that when people leave the Jihad or stop working for intelligence agencies as informers they are arrested and kept incommunicado or disappeared. The government should prosecute those military officers who are responsible for disappearances of the folks.

“The disappearances of these people and keeping them incommunicado were not only the gross violation of the law of the land and constitution of Pakistan but also the international norms and human rights charter to which Pakistan is a signatory. The AHRC urges the authorities to release all the persons who have been missing for many years after their arrest by the state intelligence agencies. The members of the parliament should also urge the government to provide lists of those people who were killed or disappeared after their arrest by the state intelligence agencies and work for the safe recovery of the disappeared.

# # #
About AHRC: The Asian Human Rights Commission is a regional NGO monitoring and lobbying human rights issues in Asia.

Posted by RajeevK | Report as abusive
 

http://www.unhcr.org/refworld/country,,H RW,COUNTRYREP,PAK,,4517b1a14,0.html

“With Friends Like These…”: Human Rights Violations in Azad Kashmir

“Human rights abuses by the Indian security forces and separatist forces in Jammu and Kashmir have been relatively well documented and often condemned. But the world knows little about Azad Kashmir, other than that the territory has been used by Pakistan-backed militant groups as a staging ground for attacks in Jammu and Kashmir.”

Summary: This 71-page report, based on research in Azad Kashmir, uncovers abuses by the Pakistani military, intelligence services and militant organizations. In Azad Kashmir, a region largely closed to international scrutiny until a devastating earthquake hit in 2005, the Pakistani government represses democratic freedoms, muzzles the press and practices routine torture.”
________
“”Pakistan says they are our friends and India is our enemy. I agree India is our enemy, but with friends like these, who needs enemies?”
– Mir Afzal Suleri, Muzaffarabad resident

“Successive Pakistani governments have asserted that Kashmir’s political future must be determined in accordance with the wishes of the people. But the reality of Azad Kashmir prior to the earthquake was life dominated by governmental restrictions on fundamental freedoms. ……No viable solution to the Kashmir issue can exclude the exercise of fundamental civil and political rights for the people of Azad Kashmir in an environment free of coercion and fear.”

“In the first seventy-two hours after the earthquake, thousands of Pakistani troops stationed in Azad Kashmir prioritized the evacuation of their own personnel over providing relief to desperate civilians. The international media…… filmed Pakistani troops standing by and refusing to help because they had “no orders” to do so as locals attempted to dig out those still alive, sending a chilling message of indifference from Islamabad. Having filmed the refusal, journalists switched off their cameras and joined the rescue effort themselves; in one instance they shamed the soldiers into helping. But unlike the death and destruction, the media were not everywhere. The death toll continued to mount.”

“Azad Kashmir is a legal anomaly. According to United Nations (U.N.) resolutions dating back to 1948, Azad Kashmir is neither a sovereign state nor a province of Pakistan, but rather a “local authority” with responsibility over the area assigned to it under a 1949 ceasefire agreement with India. It has remained in this state of legal limbo since that time. In practice, the Pakistani government in Islamabad, the Pakistani army and the Pakistani intelligence services (Inter-Services Intelligence, ISI) control all aspects of political life in Azad Kashmir – though “Azad” means “free,” the residents of Azad Kashmir are anything but. Azad Kashmir is a land of strict curbs on political pluralism, freedom of expression, and freedom of association; a muzzled press; banned books; arbitrary arrest and detention and torture at the hands of the Pakistani military and the police; and discrimination against refugees from Jammu and Kashmir state. Singled out are Kashmiri nationalists who do not support the idea of Kashmir’s accession to Pakistan. Anyone who wants to take part in public life has to sign a pledge of loyalty to Pakistan, while anyone who publicly supports or works for an independent Kashmir is persecuted. For those expressing independent or unpopular political views, there is a pervasive fear of Pakistani military and intelligence services – and of militant organizations acting at their behest or independently.”

Posted by RajeevK | Report as abusive
 

Guys,

Can we change the tenor of these “discussions”? Every time I visit this blog, I see Indians untiringly providing proof of Pakistani evils, and Pakistanis venting about Indian sins. There are dire Indian predictions of Pakistan’s imminent demise, and fervent Pakistani hopes of India’s disintegration.

Don’t we get tired of typing the same stuff over and over again?

Let’s change tack, just for variety. It’s not going to alter anything on the ground, and no territory is going to be lost if we stop fighting for a while :-) .

Let’s talk about possibilities. What are the best outcomes for the region in the years ahead? What does _our own side_ need to do to make it happen? (not what the other side needs to do)

Tupac_shakir seems to be one of the more thoughtful and articulate people to be blogging here on the Pakistani side, so it’s a good opportunity to engage in some level-headed discussion.

Nobody is perfect, and I’m sure the Indian army in Kashmir is not made up of angels. If we’re a genuine democracy, we shouldn’t be afraid of calling for impartial probes into allegations of rape and torture by army personnel. The recent corruption probe by Defence Minister AK Anthony drew praise from Pakistani sources. Some good can come out of the darkest deeds if a country can be seen to be sincere in addressing them. It may give Pakistanis the courage to address their own army’s wrongs in 1971 East Pakistan…

And for their part, Pakistanis would do well to realise that of all the people on this planet, the only foreigners who can look at them with anything like affection are Indians. For example, virtually every Indian here has sparred with Umair, but if anything actually happened to him in real life (God forbid), I’m sure they would all be genuinely saddened. There is a human bond that links us, even if we seem to spew bile at each other. Perhaps that’s why we keep coming back to engage, even if it isn’t particularly productive.

Let’s get out of the argumentative rut in which we seem to have got ourselves and try and look at the positives for a change. Even if other people provoke us, we can try and stay positive for a while. We’ve said everything we have to and achieved zero change in others’ positions. It’s time to try something different.

Regards,
Ganesh Prasad

Posted by prasadgc | Report as abusive
 

Thanks Rajeev for the posting on Azad Kashmir. I have never seen Myra or other Reuters writers mention about it. And they maintain silence when cornered with legitimate questions. We do not need their blessings or answers. We are discovering the truth ourselves. Pakistan has many Westerners in their payroll as well who write biased articles against India and project the lies even more. Unfortunately they have a lot more global clout and their influence controls the policy of the world powers.

Solution for Kashmir starts in Pakistan first – independence to Azad Kashmir and complete withdrawal of their military from there. If they really care for Kashmir’s freedom, let them start by giving it first.

Posted by KPSingh01 | Report as abusive
 

KpSingh, you said:

“Thanks Rajeev for the posting on Azad Kashmir. I have never seen Myra or other Reuters writers mention about it. And they maintain silence when cornered with legitimate questions. We do not need their blessings or answers. We are discovering the truth ourselves. Pakistan has many Westerners in their payroll as well who write biased articles against India and project the lies even more. Unfortunately they have a lot more global clout and their influence controls the policy of the world powers.

Solution for Kashmir starts in Pakistan first – independence to Azad Kashmir and complete withdrawal of their military from there. If they really care for Kashmir’s freedom, let them start by giving it first”

–>Singh, while your heart is in the right place, you should refrain from pointing fingers over such things, I do take exception that you are lumping Myra, as though she is some sort of Pakistani paid author, I disagree with that and you should take that back and apologize.

Myra has extensive experience on the region and understands the issues in Af-Pak better than almost anyone. She has the tough job of having to keep these blogs interesting, without being too biased and has keep in mind that there are little to no Pakistani’s who frequent these blogs except Indians.

I think Myra is quite impartial and is doing an excellent job on this blog. Her work is quite respected.

Please apologize for your comments.

Posted by G-W | Report as abusive
 

Notwithstanding the agitation in the last couple of weeks, Kashmir is closer to normalcy than it has ever been in the last 2 decades. Many of my acquaintainces have vacationed in Kashmir over the last year or so & I’ve been told things are looking good as peace is finally returning to the valley. As long as Pakistan does not send it’s “non-state” actors over & distrubs peace and India also makes sure that civilian rights are not violated, things are looking up for Kahmir & Kashmiris.

Posted by Mortal1 | Report as abusive
 

@Singh,

You can safely say, that PoK is occupied and culturally and religiously under seige of the Pakistani Army.

At this point, Kashmir does not really affect the west, so they will not force Pakistan to comply with their obligations, under the 1948 resolution.

Until the West chooses not to be so selectively moral, or pursue its own sole interests, the Pakistani’s will be allowed to continue terrorism or assymetrical warfare upon India, via Kashmir.

Unfortunately, Pakistan is continuing to radicalize and destroy the culture of Kashmiri’s.

Posted by G-W | Report as abusive
 

Ganesh:

Why don’t you start the discussion and find out?

Regards,
Rajeev

Posted by RajeevK | Report as abusive
 

G-W:

One cannot deny that mysteriously, Azad kashmir has remained discussed. I have pointed it multiple times in the past.

No one knows why.

Posted by RajeevK | Report as abusive
 

India should abrogate the special status granted to J&K. Once the Pundits have been driven out of there, they have lost the right to special privileges.

Kashmir will turn into another Swat valley if India vacates the place. Pakistan will infiltrate the region with its radicals very quickly, build on the hatred that is fuming against India and clamp the place down. Then it will rule by proxy elements which will resemble the Taliban. Anyone who stands up for rights will be exterminated. The ISI will set up camps closer to Delhi now and start launching more offensives from inside Kashmir and will prop up Khalistan movement next. I can see the road clearly. Pakistan has no interest in building a nation for itself. It has taken the role of a destroyer. This is pretty much what the British set things up for when they left. Pakistan was created to help prove Churchill’s vision that the locals will fight each other and disintegrate. Britain has helped Pakistan all the way through in keeping India under pressure. Kashmir issue was left burning, not just by the local leaders. There is a British hand there too. UK has allowed Pakistanis and Kashmiris to emigrate and has helped them collect funds and launch negative propaganda against India. Fortunately for India, it has weathered this onslaught from all sides and has grown stronger. UK is now paying the price for accommodating these elements. There are mosques in UK that preach violence and hatred and call for jihad. Let them reap what they sowed. War goes on many fronts. War field is not the only place where the campaign is launched. It happens through diplomatic coercion, negative publicity, biased coverage in media and acts of sabotage. Keeping the countries on a war path helps these past powers to sell arms and keep their defense industries going. They also help them dominate by taking the neutral role. As time goes on, these powers are going to fall on their own backs. India will emerge strong and independent. Kashmiris are better off going with India. Being free or going to Pakistan will lead to the Talibanization of the place, thanks to Pakistan.

Posted by KPSingh01 | Report as abusive
 

@Myra,

That is a fair question that Rajeev has.

Will you open the topic of Pakistan’s so-called “Azad Kashmir”.

Let’s make the Kashmir discussion have true parity and not just focus on the Indian side.

Let’s see what happening on the Pakistani Occupied kashmir as well.

Fair is fair. If Kashmir is to be discussed, let’s give it equal weight as the Indian Kashmir, after all the people in PoK are Kashmiri’s too are they not?….or are we already considering them Pakistani’s?

What do yo say, Myra, does this proposition of equal discussion on BOTH sides of Kashmir does that not make sense? We are waiting for an answer.

As I said earlier Myra, I do believe that you are impartial.

Posted by G-W | Report as abusive
 

@Singh,

India abrogate Kashmir to Pakistan? not in a million years?

First of all, Pakistan occupation of Kashmir is illegal and Kashmir belongs to Kashmiri’s.

Secondly, if India did abrogate Kashmir, there would be a new Genocide upon Kashmiri Hindus in Indian Kashmir.

The no western power will come to the rescue of Hindus being genocided in Kashmir at the hands of Islamists via the Pakistani Army. Like Rwanda, any hindu genocide will go largely uncovered, unchallenged and undiscussed, until after it is thoroughly completed.

It is good that Indians do not leave Kashmir, for sake of the Hindus there. Islamists will radicalize Indian Kashmiri’s and the worst attrocities will befall Hindus in Kashmir, if India ever abandons them.

I think most Pakistani’s and Indians here agree with me, the fate of Hindus in Indian Kashmir will be along the same lines as the Hindu ethnic cleansing of Bangladesh, right, at hands of the Islamists, support by the PA., if India ever abrogates Indian Kashmir.’

India has a moral duty to protect those Kashmiri Hindus on their own ancestral land, for that reason, until Pakistan Occupied Kashmir is openly discussed with transparent candidacy and 1948 UN resolutions complied with by Pakistan, the de-facto border will continue to be the LOC.

The UN by its 1948 Resolution and the law is on the side of India.

Posted by G-W | Report as abusive
 

The reason AJK is not compared to IOK is because there is no comparison. Indian hawks here are showing their desperation when they attempt to compare baluchistan or Azad Kashmir to Indian ‘administered’ kashmir. do you really want to compare rapes, murders, fake encounters in IOK to AJK? A kashmiri told me that you can get 2 years of jail for even non-violent protest.

Actually, I welcome Myra doing a neutral piece on AJK vs IOK. I guarantee you the Indian hate-brigade here will hate her more than before.

Even with a trillion terabytes of data on the internet, rajeev could only find an article in an indian news site about how kashmiris were protesting pakistan… he failed to mention that even in rajeev-picked example the kashmiris were also protesting indians.

Also Rajeev, settle down. I did not claim to be a kashmiri. Those excerpts are from kashmiri blogs about India — (Much easier to find than your attempts to find items on AJK)

GW, kpsingh was talking about abrogating the SPECIAL STATUS of Kashmir within the Indian disunion not abrogating to pakistani. you people have such a paranoid pak-reflex that I have to explain one hawkish indian to another even more hawkish indian.

Posted by tupak_shakir | Report as abusive
 

I don’t see India giving up an inch of Kashmir (it controls) to Pakistan or anyone else. India bore the brunt of Pakistani terrorism in Kashmir for over 2 decades & withstood it even when Pakistan was in a much stronger position. If Pakistan had any chance of wresting Kashmir away from India, it would have done so by the early/mid 90s when it was much stronger economically & had a lot of support from the west. Today, Pakistan is virtually bankrupt, rising up the ranks of failed states & is rapidly losing it’s support from the west (who have cozied up to India over the last decade). So, if India was able to hold on to Kashmir back when it was in a much weaker position, I don’t see it give up any part of Kashmir today, when it is much stronger than it ever was & Pakistan being that much weaker. You need money to sustain proxy wars & failed countries who rely on loans & aid for survival can’t sustain proxy wars for too long, before falling apart themselves.

A few things are quite clear about the Kashmir situation:

1) India will not give up any of it’s Kashmir & nor will Pakistan (despite all the empty talk by Pakistanis about Kashmir’s independence).

2) Kashmir will not become an independant state due to it’s location & size.

3) Plebicite is out of question, given that the demographics of both kashmir’s have been greatly altered.

So, the only solution is for India & Pakistan to build trust, become friends & make kashmiri borders irrelevant or stay enemies & make current LOC as permanent border.

Posted by Mortal1 | Report as abusive
 

Tupak:

@Even with a trillion terabytes of data on the internet, rajeev could only find an article in an indian news site about how kashmiris were protesting pakistan…”
–That is precisely the background with which UN human rights reports begins—-that the status of Kashmiris in India is well documented, such is not the case with “Azad Kashmir” in Pakistan clutches.

I will quote that again from UN Human rights report: “Human rights abuses by the Indian security forces and separatist forces in Jammu and Kashmir have been relatively well documented and often condemned. But the world knows little about Azad Kashmir, other than that the territory has been used by Pakistan-backed militant groups as a staging ground for attacks in Jammu and Kashmir.”

@that he failed to mention that even in rajeev-picked example the kashmiris were also protesting indians.”
–This tells what u do what u post –do not show any that has anti-Pak voice. Unlike you I do not attempt to hide what Kashmiris want to say.

this summarizes pretty much about India-Pakistan-Kashmir triangle:
”Pakistan says they are our friends and India is our enemy. I agree India is our enemy, but with friends like these, who needs enemies?”
–– Mir Afzal Suleri, Muzaffarabad resident

Posted by RajeevK | Report as abusive
 

a few things are clear:

freedom movements outlast oppressors even if takes centuries.

vietnam
algeria
america
afg.
uzbekistan
kyrgzstan
turkmenistan
tajikistan
zimbabwe
south africa
bangladesh

Kashmiris are a stubborn, courageous and patient people.

india will get its comeuppance.

Posted by tupak_shakir | Report as abusive
 

rajeev, how many kashmiris killed by 1 million pakistani soldiers in muzzafarabad/ajk. oh wait, we don’t have a million soldiers in ajk.

why is that the only country to call AJK “POK” is India?
why do kashmiris refer to “POK” as Azad Kashmir?

pathetic.

GOOGLE SEARCH RESULTS
“KASHMIRIS CHEERING PAKISTAN” – 308,000 Results
“KASHMIRIS CHEERING INDIA” – 18,000

Posted by tupak_shakir | Report as abusive
 

I was watching news on an Indian news channel. I usually watch news on Indian media just to keep myself aware about the happenings in India and to know about the Indian perspective of events and happenings. Although Indian media’s point of veiw is always grossly biased and subservient to the so called Indian national interests, which are always hegemonistic, camaflougistic, boastful about God knows what, anti- Kashmir and last but not least anti-Pakistan.
When recently I was in Bombay, I found many Muslims of Bombay read Samna, official mouthpiece rubbish of Shiv Sena. When I asked them why they read an anti – Muslim paper, they answered, “it enlightens us with a resolve to fight it out with them”. By reading Samna, Muslims of Bombay acquaint themselves with the Sick Sena mindset. They get informed about the cookings in the minds of Hindu facists. I got my lesson and I started to watch and read every possible Indian media for my personal self interest. And that my personal self interest is nothing but to seek Freedom.Freedom from everything Indian and Freedom from those who have deprived my nation of self respect, dignified living, national identity and free atmosphere. Coming back to the news on Indian TV, I was amazed to know that in Rajasthan, Hindu couples give birth to female babies only to receive an incentive of Rs. 1800 per female child and then after recieving the money, female infants are murdered to get rid of the bad omen which many Hindus in India consider females to be. This practice of recieving money for female child and then getting rid of that child is becoming more and more popular by every passing day. The scheme of provinding Rs. 1800 as bonus to couples who give birth to female infants was introduced by Government of India under immense pressure from UNESCO and other world bodies to help curb the barbaric menace of female infanticides which are uncontrolled and common in India. This news is not such a big shock to hear as India is home to these kinds of inhuman and savage acts. We are habitual of hearing to such distressing and atrocious news items regularly on Indian media. Sati, Dain (wich hunt, in which women are beaten to death), Child sacrifice, Devdassi Pratha (Priestly Prostitution) infant marriages and many other horrifying pracitices are a common place in modern India. While watching that news my mind bewildered, “Is this the India the great and shining which its lunatic leadership and biased media is very proud of”. And then I realised what an uncivilised and heartless enemy we Kashmiris are dealing with. We are fighting for our Freedom not with a civilised nation but with mindless barbarians and heartless beasts, who derive sadistic pleasure out of human misery. Those who can kill their own children for merely Rs.1800 can wreack havoc on us for even few bucks less. It is really a high time to stop weeping at every attrocity Indian beasts unleash on Kashmiri nation. Our weeping and mourning brings cheer to their dark faces. We need to deprive them of that cheer and pleasure. We should do something different and equally painful to them. Let them also cry and moan. We need to make their stay in Kashmir a hell of an experience. I kept on watching the news and the next news item was about M. F. Hussain the painter. At the age of 95, this old and frail man vehemently shuns India and everything Indian in him. He was tired of showcasing and exhibiting his Indian patriotism again and again to Hindus of “Secular” India. He was not allowed to breathe freely in “Secular” India. His life was at stake and his wings were being clipped. He did what was best for him, atleast he got a last chance to mend his fate.
I now think about that faithful Indian Kashmiri dog Farooq Abdullah and other pedigree puppies of his breed. Will they at all get any chance to mend their fates?
I believe No they won’t get any chance. They have already exhausted that chance a long back. Let these pet dogs prove their loyalties towards India and her people, every day in and day out, till they all die one by one like dirty stray hungry dogs. Who cares

Posted by tupak_shakir | Report as abusive
 

The Armed Forces Special Powers Act (AFSPA) was passed on September 11, 1958 by the Parliament of India. It conferred special powers upon armed forces in what the language of the act calls “disturbed areas” in the states of Arunachal Pradesh, Assam, Manipur, Meghalaya, Mizoram, Nagaland and Tripura. It was later extended to Jammu and Kashmir as the The Armed Forces (Jammu and Kashmir) Special Powers Act, 1990 in July 1990.

According to the AFSPA, in an area that is proclaimed as “disturbed”, an officer of the armed forces has powers to :

? Fire upon or otherwise use force, even to the causing of death, against any person who is acting in contravention of any law against assembly of five or more persons or possession of deadly weapons.

Assembly of five or more persons means if you are playing cricket with your friends, its your fault. Dont blame the forces! .

Posted by tupak_shakir | Report as abusive
 

Tupak/shaquib and all:

1. Are we interested in atrocities on Kashmiris in general or are we interested in atrocities on Kashmiris just by Indian Army? Time to compare IHK vs POK.

2. Available reports tell that 44% of Kashmiris in Pakistan and 43% in India want an independent Kashmir.

3. A trace number of Kashmiris in India (merely 2%) are willing to go with pakistan and comparable is the # of Kashmiris in POK (1%) who want to go with India.

So it is clear that the Kashmiris are not big fans of neither India nor Pakistan.

While it can be argued why Kashmiris don’t like India based on “100,000 killings” of kashmiris by Indian Army, I am puzzled by the fact that why Kashmiris hate Pakistan. Tupak;s tries to explain by saying that “people are unhappy with govt in his neighborhood”, so it is no big deal if kashmiris are unhappy. Point taken but are his unhappy neighbors asking for a separate nation or to reform the nation.

There must be something that makes Kashmiris hate Pakistan and if u add religion factor (as Pakistani posters often argue) and the “moral support” for the Kashmir cause by Pakistan, this becomes even more puzzling.

What is happening in POK that we do not know and these fine Pakistanis are reluctant to discuss? Is patriotism of Pakistanis coming in way to discuss Kashmir cause. Forget Kosovo and talk about POK and IHK. Enough of hiding behind the couch by pakistanis and time to talk about Kashmiris and those in Northern Areas. But that will happen if one is concerned about the cause not personal ego.

Posted by RajeevK | Report as abusive
 

In occupied Kashmir, 2,700 unmarked graves containing over 2,943 bodies across 55 villages in three districts, Bandipore,, Baramulla and Kupwara have been discovered. The Srinagar based human rights group, International People’s Tribunal on Human Rights and Justice for Kashmir (IPTJ) in its report claimed that the graves could be of those missing from the custody of Indian troops. Rights groups put their numbers at ten thousand. The report is based on research between November 2006 and November 2009 and has been authored by prominent human rights activists of India and occupied Kashmir, Angana P. Chatterji, Parvez Imroz, Gautam Navlakha, ZahirUd-Din, Mihir Desai, and Khurram Parvez. 112-page dossier, titled ‘Buried Evidence’ was released at a press conference in Srinagar today by Angna Chatterjee, the convener of the group. The report documents in considerable detail how the actions of Indian military and paramilitary forces in Kashmir inflict terror on the local population, killed through extra-judicial means. The IPTJ said it examined 50 encounter killings. Forty-nine of the victims were labeled as militants or foreign insurgents by the troops. “Forty-seven were found killed in fake encounters; one was identified as a local militant. We don’t know who the remaining two are,” said an IPTJ office-bearer. In one such case, the troops claimed to have killed four foreign Pakistani terrorists on April 29, 2007 and identified them as Abu-Safayan, Abu-Hafiz, Abu-Sadiq and Abu-Ashraf. “Three of the four male bodies were buried in Sedarpora village in the Kandi area, Kupwara district. The three were later identified as residents of Kashmir, killed in fake encounters. The real names of the deceased were Reyaz Ahmad Bhat of Kalashpora, Manzoor Ahmad Wagay of Letar, Pulwama and Sartaj Ahmad Ganai, resident of Tikipora, Shopian district. The identity of the fourth has not been ascertained,” report says. The bodies of Manzoor and Sartaj were exhumed and identified, while Reyaz was identified through a complex process, the report says, adding that Reyaz and Manzoor were ordinary civilians but Sartaj was a militant.

Traditionally, all graves in Kashmir are marked and the epitaphs mention the name and residence of those buried. The findings came a year and a half after the Association of Parents of Disappeared People (APDP) released a report, titled “Facts under Ground”, that said there were 940 unmarked graves in just one tehsil, Uri, of Baramulla. “A full-scale investigation must be commissioned under provisions of the Commissions of Inquiry Act, 1952, and/or other relevant laws, to inquire into the disappearances within a stipulated and reasonable timeframe. We also note that certain freedom fighters who have surrendered to the security forces have been disappeared in violation of Habeas Corpus, and that the chain of violations in these cases should be investigated”, the report says.

The detailed press note issued in Srinagar at the press conference is as follows:

BURIED EVIDENCE is authored by Angana P. Chatterji, Parvez Imroz, Gautam Navlakha, Zahir-Ud-Din, Mihir Desai, and Khurram Parvez.
[Dr. Angana P. Chatterji is Convener IPTK and Professor, Anthropology, California Institute of Integral Studies.
Advocate Parvez Imroz is Convener IPTK and Founder, Jammu and Kashmir Coalition of Civil Society.
Gautam Navlakha is Convener IPTK and Editorial Consultant, Economic and Political Weekly.
Zahir-Ud-Din is Convener IPTK and Vice-President, Jammu and Kashmir Coalition of Civil Society.
Advocate Mihir Desai is Legal Counsel IPTK and Lawyer, Mumbai High Court and Supreme Court of India.
Khurram Parvez is Liaison IPTK and Programme Coordinator, Jammu and Kashmir Coalition of Civil Society.]

Findings
The graveyards investigated by IPTK entomb bodies of those murdered in encounter and fake encounter killings between 1990-2009. These graves include bodies of extrajudicial, summary, and arbitrary executions, as well as massacres committed by the Indian military and paramilitary forces.

Of these graves, 2,373 (87.9 percent) were unnamed. Of these graves, 154 contained two bodies each and 23 contained more than two cadavers. Within these 23 graves, the number of bodies ranged from 3 to 17. A mass grave may be identified as containing more than one, and usually unidentified, human cadaver. Scholars refer to mass graves as resulting from crimes against humanity, war crimes, or genocide. If the intent of a mass grave is to execute death with impunity, with intent to kill more than one, and to forge an unremitting representation of death, then, to that extent, the graves in Bandipora, Baramulla, and Kupwara are part of a collective burial by India’s military and paramilitary, creating a landscape of “mass burial.” Post-death, the bodies of the victims were routinely handled by military and paramilitary personnel, including the local police. The bodies were then brought to the “secret graveyards” primarily by personnel of the Jammu and Kashmir Police. The graves were constructed by local gravediggers and caretakers, buried individually when possible, and specifically not en mass, in keeping with Islamic religious sensibilities.

The graves, with few exceptions, hold bodies of men. Violence against civilian men has expanded spaces for enacting violence against women. Women have been forced to disproportionately assume the task of caregiving to disintegrated families and undertake the work of seeking justice following disappearances and deaths. These graveyards have been placed next to fields, schools, and homes, largely on community land, and their affect on the local community is daunting.

The Indian Armed Forces and the Jammu and Kashmir Police routinely claim the dead buried in unknown and unmarked graves to be “foreign militants/terrorists.” They claim that the dead were unidentified foreign or Kashmiri militants killed while infiltrating across the border areas into Kashmir or travelling from Kashmir into Pakistan to seek arms training.
Official state discourse conflates cross-border militancy with present nonviolent struggles by local Kashmiri groups for political and territorial self-determination, portraying local resistance as “terrorist” activity. Exhumation and identification have not occurred in sizeable cases. Where they have been undertaken, in various instances, “encounter” killings across Kashmir have, in fact, been authenticated as “fake encounter” killings. In instances where, post-burial, bodies have been identified, two methods have been used prevalently.
These are 1. Exhumation; and 2. Identification through the use of photographs.

The report also examines 50 alleged “encounter” killings by Indian security forces in numerous districts in Kashmir. Of these persons, 39 were of Muslim descent; 4 were of Hindu descent; 7 were not determined. Of these cases, 49 were labelled militants/foreign insurgents by security forces and one body that was drowned. Of these, following investigations, 47 were found killed in fake encounters and one was identifiable as a local militant. IPTK has been able to study only partial areas within 3 of 10 districts in Kashmir, and our findings and very preliminary evidence point to the severity of existing conditions. If independent investigations were to be undertaken in all 10 districts, it is reasonable to assume that the 8,000+ enforced disappearances since 1989 would correlate with the number of bodies in unknown, unmarked, and mass graves.
Allegations
The methodical and planned use of killing and violence in Indian-administered Kashmir constitutes crimes against humanity in the context of an ongoing conflict. The Indian state’s governance of Indian-administered Kashmir requires the use of discipline and death as techniques of social control. Discipline is affected through military presence, surveillance, punishment, and fear. Death is disbursed through “extrajudicial” means and those authorized by law. These techniques of rule are used to kill, and create fear of not just death but of murder.
Mass and intensified extrajudicial killings have been part of a sustained and widespread offensive by the military and paramilitary institutions of the Indian state against civilians of Jammu and Kashmir. IPTK asks that the evidence put forward in this report be examined, verified, and reframed as relevant by credible, independent, and international bodies, and that international institutions ask that the Government of India comply with such investigations.
We note that the international community and institutions have not examined the supposition of crimes against humanity in Indian-administered Jammu and Kashmir. We note that the United Nations and its member states have remained ineffective in containing and halting the adverse consequences of the Indians state’s militarization in Kashmir.
We ask that evidence from unknown, unmarked, and mass graves in Indian-administered Jammu and Kashmir be used to seek justice, through the sentencing of criminals and other judicial and social processes. As well, the existence of these graves, and how they came to be, may be understood as indicative of the effects and issue of militarization and the issues pertaining to militarization itself must be addressed seriously and expeditiously.
The violence’s of militarization in Indian-administered Kashmir, between 1989-2009, have resulted in 70,000+ deaths, including through extrajudicial or “fake encounter” executions, custodial brutality, and other means. In the enduring conflict, 6, 67,000 military and paramilitary personnel continue to act with impunity to regulate movement, law, and order across Kashmir. The Indian state itself, through its legal, political, and military actions, has demonstrated the existence of a state of continuing conflict within Indian-administered Jammu and Kashmir.

Posted by tupak_shakir | Report as abusive
 

Rajeev, if you are really interested in IoK versus PoK, go to amnesty international, they have neutral record on both areas.

is ajk an utopian society for kashmiris? no. are there mass graves there? NO NO NO.

Posted by tupak_shakir | Report as abusive
 

Tupak:
I have to leave right now but say this quickly:
But I am glad you are ready to discuss. Shabaash!

@rajeev, how many kashmiris killed by 1 million pakistani soldiers in muzzafarabad/ajk. oh wait, we don’t have a million soldiers in ajk.”
—Drink a glass of Rooh-Afza and cool down. You don’t have billion people either if that helps you. Did u count non-uniformed soldiers?

@why is that the only country to call AJK “POK” is India?
why do kashmiris refer to “POK” as Azad Kashmir? ”

—”What’s in a name? That which we call a rose
By any other name would smell as sweet.”

Read up on the constitution of “Azad Kashmir” and the policies of Pakistan and what Kashmiris want (that u me and all would agree….independence!). While Pakistan asks for self-determination by Kashmiris, it crushes self-determination at home by promoting only those who show say “Kashmir banega Pakistan” (such Kashmiris in “AJK” are only 2%).

There is serious contradiction. Read the UN human rights report where they have shown how that is the case.

Posted by RajeevK | Report as abusive
 

@ 2. Available reports tell that 44% of Kashmiris in Pakistan and 43% in India want an independent Kashmir.
3. A trace number of Kashmiris in India (merely 2%) are willing to go with pakistan and comparable is the # of Kashmiris in POK (1%) who want to go with India
Posted by RajeevK

Rajeev, are you out of your mind! Scientific polls conducted by independant sources are NOT the real barometer Kashmiri sentiments. The REAL barometer is the number of search results churned out by google & the number of kashmiri flags being waved in a Pakistan-Australia cricket game. Google search proves beyond any doubt that Kashmiris prefer Pakistan over India by a margin of 308:18 :)

Posted by Mortal1 | Report as abusive
 

@Rajeev, if you are really interested in IoK versus PoK, go to amnesty international, they have neutral record on both areas.”
–Tupak

—Why leave mysteries? why don’t u bring that IoK versus PoK from amnesty international.

Is UN human rights and Asian human rights reports NOT NEUTRAL? huh?

Posted by RajeevK | Report as abusive
 

@KPSingh,

I’ll not go as far as calling Myra deliberately biased but other than that I second your opinion completely. GOI should withdraw Article 370 from Kashmir and facilitate settling up of Kashmiri Pundits back there instead of making them live in miserable conditions in tents in Delhi. That is so shameful for original inhabitants for that area. Even if India has to do it Israel style, they should start constructing self-contained SEZ-type colonies and make army protect it.

As for Pakistan crying for the plights of Kashmiris – they have always had the golden opportunity to declare PoK as independent nation and name it, say, West Kashmir and then it would have helped the Kashmiri separatists tremendously. The mere fact that they have not done so clearly hints about their double-speak about their support for Kashmir. May be the Pakistani posters here should go and press their own government to declare PoK a sovereign state. Kashmiris love Pakistanis so they don’t have any possible security issues either.

I fail to understand what is wrong with Indian Kashmiris. India is not a communist rule or monarchy, each state has a certain control in power sharing, and common men should really not care about who is governing as long as governance is good. Peoples’ grudges can be understood when commodity prices are high, law and order is failing, or Kashmiris are being discriminated or not allowed to practice their religion and things like that but not otherwise. This is not 1950s, it is 2010 and independence does not mean much for the citizens of any country (in an ideal scenario). Governments primary job is to provide sound administration, security and pursue its peoples’ interests world-wide. Do these people think that getting “independence” will alter their lives in any manner except that checking a non-item in their wishlist? What special kind of lives will they get if they deal in some other currency instead of Indian Rupees? In that regard, Kashmiris are plainly being emotional and there is really no real reason behind their grudges.

Another reason, India should never budge an inch on Kashmir issue is the clear cut ethnic cleansing and discriminations that we have seen against minorities in the Muslim-majority countries, particularly Pakistan. Even if India has to do 100s of Tiananmen squares, we’ll still save thousand times more lives than we’d unfortunately kill in these protests. I know its immoral stance but nobody can deny the Math behind it.

Posted by Seth | Report as abusive
 

i understand a wide disparity in google aggregation is not as scientific as anecdotal stories about someone’s friends visiting kashmir and getting a rousing hero’s welcome by kashmiri haseenas in the valley

if you are so interested in a scientific poll, try a plebiscite…

Posted by tupak_shakir | Report as abusive
 

Even if India has to do 100s of Tiananmen squares, we’ll still save thousand times more lives than we’d unfortunately kill in these protests.

— indian morality on display. i rest my case.

Posted by tupak_shakir | Report as abusive
 

—”What’s in a name? That which we call a rose
By any other name would smell as sweet.”

not true. An azad rose smells so much sweeter :)

Posted by tupak_shakir | Report as abusive
 

@”i understand a wide disparity in google aggregation is not as scientific as anecdotal stories about someone’s friends visiting kashmir and getting a rousing hero’s welcome by kashmiri haseenas in the valley”
Posted by tupak_shakir

Exaggerations, distortions & lies: a typical Pakistani hallamrk. Can you point out where anyone has narrated anecdotal stories about “friends getting hero’s welcome in kashmir”?

@”if you are so interested in a scientific poll, try a plebiscite”

You want a plebicite? Fine, do the following:

* Have your army withdraw each & every of it’s state & non-state actor from PoK.

* Have your army call back all it’s non-state actors from J&K.

* Have your establishment un-alter the map of PoK & bring it back to the way it was in 1947 i.e abrogate the Kashmiri territory included in FANA over the years.

* Have your establishment get back from China, the Kashmiri land which it had gifted to it’s Chinsese friends.

* Have your establishment unsettle all the Punjabis & non-Kashmiris which it has settled in PoK since 1947.

* Call back all the Kashmiris living in the UK, west & other countries.

* Settle back all the Kashmiri pandits, sikhs & others who have left the valley in the last 2 decades for fear of being killed by terrorists from your country.

Fulfill the above, before ever talking about holding a plebicite.

@”not true. An azad rose smells so much sweeter”

A state or territory does not become Azad just by preceding it’s name with the word “Azad”. Azad Kashmir is just as “Azad” as the Democratic People’s Republic of Korea (North Korea) is “Democratic”.

Posted by Mortal1 | Report as abusive
 

Kashmiris in their own words:

“Seventeen Indian slumdog occupation troops have been killed after being buried alive in an avalanche near Khilanmarg. It’s a time to celebrate, to offer prayers of thanks, to hand out treats, to hug our fellow Kashmiris for this joyful news. If you are really keen, let’s also light up some loud firecrackers.”

“To Kashmiris, there was never any doubt that the current so-called “elected” administration of Omar Abdullah is a fake, propped-up puppet of New Delhi. They have been imposed upon Kashmir just to save face for India at international levels when in reality all the strings are pulled in New Delhi.” – Yousuf (KashmirTruthbeTold)

“It is worthwhile to note here that there is not a single pro-India blogger from Kashmir. So much for India’s claims that Kashmiris are pro-India! Even Omar Abdullah and his stooges gave up blogging when they ran out of lies to continue to justify India’s occupation.”

“This post reflects clearly that how much helpless we Kashmiris are in front of the worlds savageous army who shoots kids of Kashmiris for fun.Allahs calamity has fallen on 17 personell of Slumdog army and this has provided us a reason to rejoice.Allahs says no calamity befalls on you unless what your hands have earned so Indeed this is a punishment for the unbated atrocities committed on Kashmiris whoose only crime is that they oppose the occupation of their land their air and their life by Slumdogs.” – Dr. Waleed Sheikh

“Again, keep aside your narrow minded prejudices. Have you gone through our blogs here? Exactly where do you see references to Pakistan media? Just because you Indians habitually take what your media spews as holy scriptures, doesnt mean us Kashmiris rely on Pakistan media.”

“After former Yugoslavia, it is India’s turn to naturally disintegrate (I cannot wait until the day when we can finally refer to India as “former India”). Just imagine, had the former unnatural federation of balkan states, called Yugoslavia, not unravelled, we would still be witnessing the grotesque bloodshed that the Serbs perpetrated during the 80?s and 90?s”

“Not only must the world censure India for it’s heinous acts in Kashmir, the world must also move toward policies that call for India’s disintegration. They should do this to ensure world peace.”
“You did not bear the humiliation that we living Kashmiris bear everyday. You stood up to the Indian dogs and resisted like brave men and women do. Sacrificing your lives for freedom, justice and honour”

As always, the official Indian response to local demands for self-determination has been to portray the Kashmiri freedom struggle as terrorism and a threat to Indian “democracy”. The insistence of this rhetoric borders on hypocrisy. – KashmirLiberationFront

All Parties Hurriyet Conference Mirwaiz Umar Farooq has strongly denounced the illegal detention of pro-movement leaders and activists. – JKAPCH

“And while thou native were riddled with bullets. My long dead soul was chasing dreams. While blood oozed and they watched unconcerned. While thou were gasping for each labouring breath” – ~ Kahsmir ~

“Kashmiris on both sides of the Line of Control and across the world observed Indian Republic Day, today, as Black Day – Kashmir Freedom Movement” – Memoirs of a Kashmiri

At least 1 lakh patients suffering from conflict-induced trauma as also suicidal tendencies in Kashmir have visited psychiatric consultancy centre in Government Psychiatric Hospital during 2008. – Kashmir View
A Kashmiri Terrorist,11 months old ambushed Indian army. His killers Indian Occupational army are roaming free and looking for a new prey.Is there anyone to stop them?

Posted by tupak_shakir | Report as abusive
 

“indian morality on display. i rest my case.’

Thank you barrister but unfortunately, we’ve not received any confirmation of your appointment from Kashmiris! The door is that way.

Posted by Seth | Report as abusive
 

You did not bear the humiliation that we living Kashmiris bear everyday
You stood up to the Indian dogs and resisted like brave men and women do
Sacrificing your lives for freedom, justice and honour

Amin, Javed, Mohiuddin, Neelofar, Asiya, and Sajad Ganayie: these are just a few names of martyred Kashmiris in the past months, of whom I have written and I know of–out of the hundreds of thousands of fallen Kashmiris whose stories will never reach the world.

I will not attempt to justify my absence. The injustice of it all is so overwhelming that it pains to express it in words. How can the world let the Indian dogs get away with so much horror, bloodshed, and brutality on Kashmiris?

Just when we were coming to grips with the murder of Amin and Javed by the Indian Army, and the subsequent murder of Mohiuddin by the Indian CRPF troops, shortly after, we were subsequently made to suffer through the agonizing ordeal of rape and murder by the Indian Army of Neelofar and Asiya and numerous other murders of unarmed protesters–the numbers for this year alone surpass 2000. And then came the murder of Sajad Ganayie of Langate by the Indian occupation troops. No one was punished for the murders of Amin and Javed; no one was punished for the murder of Mohiuddin; no one was punished for the rapes and murders of Neelofar and Asiya; and no one was punished for the murder of Sajad.

The Indian-appointed puppet-administration’s bluff of “exemplary punishment” for the culprits involved in the murder of Amin and Javed was turned up on its head by the puppet administration’s Delhi based masters, the merchants of death in Delhi, headed by the mercenary-of-death named Sonia Gandhi, who dances devilishly like a “Kali Mata” on the freshly shed blood of innocent Kashmiris and who is personally responsible for their murders, since she is the de facto head of state of India–Manmohan being her other lapdog, whose sole purpose apart from sycophancy is to be her “Indian face” to her illiterate and ignoramus populace.

The puppets were shown their proper place–by the feet of their Indian masters, like obedient dogs that they are–and retaught that of all those who speak against the Indian occupation troops, the least of all who will be tolerated by the Indian despots are the weasels running the show currently for India in Kashmir. One weasel is just as good as another weasel. Weasels have no character or conscience and will sell their souls just to cling on to the title of head-weasel. Lest Muftis take the coveted spot of the head-weasel.

And hence, no more barkings of “exemplary punishment” are heard from them as they has learnt to obey his Delhi masters, and therefore have adopted the more acceptable terminology of “It’s being looked into” as his predecessors had done for decades. That’s what was told to Tim Sullivan when asked about the murders taking place in Kashmir.

Thank you Mr Tim Sullivan of Associated Press for writing about this. Read Mr Sullivan’s article here.

Posted by tupak_shakir | Report as abusive
 

n Jammu and Kashmir state India deals with the people according to their religion. In Jammu Fanatic extremist Hindu parties and their activists and the people of Jammu who being armed with swords trishuls( a three edged spear)petrol bombs, who torch lynch and cut Muslims and Muslim cops as well are given cold drinks by Indian Army and Hindu dominated Jammu police. they are given a free passage for attaching Offices of Kashmir based newspapers, Throw petrol bombs on the trucks of Muslim drivers plying on pathankot Srinagar highway. Who set on fire whole Gujjar (Muslim) huts in Jammu.Sambha,Kathua.Indian communal army watches them with pride and pats them.People like Brig.Suchet sing(retd) Who during the time of service took oath under secular constitution was found shoulder to shoulder assisting advising communal and fanatic Hindus how to attack and enforce economic blockade against Muslims of Kashmir,Doda,poonch . And harass Muslims of Jammu region. If a person of such calibre and post in Indian army can be of dubious character what about the common solider of this army. After the events of Jammu it should be eye opener of everyone who harbour illusions about the secular fabric of Indian army. We remember that during Gujarat massacre of Muslims we were told that had there been army called out by George Fernandez ,Muslims could have been saved but time has proved wrong. What is the difference now when in Gujarat an ex M.P (Muslim) is killed by throwing burning tyre on him in the absence of Army and fanatic Hindu youths who on riding a motorcycle throw petrol bombs on a Kashmiri Muslim truck driver who got burnt 90% and is waiting for death to overcome him as all the burnt people die of septicaemia. Sure death. This all was done in broad daylight in the presence of Hindu police and Secular army of India.Now the question arises how many Suchet singhs will be in the Indian army having masks of secularism on their face and when they get an opportunity to inflict harm to the Muslims they would be doing that without any let or hinderence.If Govt.of India wants to give an example to others then it should annulate the pension of this communal ex Brig.Take the medals if any from him as a punishment for defaming the army,otherwise this taint will remain on the army and secular fabric will be always disputed.
Now lets talk about what the same army does when they are in Kashmir.Unarmed protestors whose weapon is faith and trust in Allah,Who never pour venom against Hindus.Who consider Common man of Jammu their own.Who take Hindu piligrims on their shoulders to their place of worship high up in the mountains of Kashmir.Who at the time of the adventure of tribals in 1947 saved the Hindus in Kashmir only for their betrayal in 1990 when the same Hindus left valley in order to Give Jagmohan a free hand to Kill the Muslims in Kashmir which he did with full impunity.Freedom is a right of every Human being.Kashmiris who were betrayed and deceived by Sheikh Abdullah want freedom from Indian occupation and want use the right of self determination as promised to them by UN and the first prime Minister of India.When Kashmiris raise their voice against the oppression and ask for eroding the cease fire line so as to avoid confrontation with Hindu fanatics of Jammu, ask for freedom. The secular army of India spray them with bullets and such tear gas shells which are supposed to used during combat. Beat them with Bamboo sticks to pulp. In 21 century a protest rally in other parts of world is stopped by spraying water on the protestors so that no life is lost. But India doesn’t consider Kashmiris their citizens which have been proven again again and again from 1947 till date. Why then kashmiris should consider themselves Indians. In Kashmir when people protest army gets so frustrated that they enter residential houses and beat the immates break windows, Molest women.
The cold blooded killings of last two days have revealed again the real face of secular India and its secular army.Kashmiris who were caught between a rock and hard place by the economic blockade were just trying to get their Just voice heard by the higher authorities of India. If govt. of India would had clamped curfew in the city as soon as the time of March towards Muzzaffarabad was announced we would have understood that all this is done in good faith but Unfortunately The occupational forces have long ago tasted the blood of unarmed Kashmiris and they want to taste it again and again.The unknown graves in Kashmir. The fake encounters.Criminal attacks on ambulances and doctors who were transporting injured.Beating women and children have again proven the dubious attitude of Indian army and its sister forces towards Kashmiris.Now it’s a high time for kashmiri’s to understand that its do or die situation now and as we all know that Independence from Indian occupation cannot be a reality until we all fight together against those who have deprived us of it fro centuries.We must listen to our leaders and act as per their command so as to get success.May god Help Kashmiris.

Your fellow kashmiri
Dr,Bilal Sheikh

Posted by tupak_shakir | Report as abusive
 

Since everybody talks about piece-ful protesters in Kashmir:

“CRPF, the central paramilitary force at the forefront of
counter-insurgency operations and crowd control, has been at the receiving end of Kashmir ire. In just one month, 273 CRPF jawans have been injured in stone pelting while over the last two years, 1,980 personnel have been wounded.”

Pepper bullets coming soon: http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/india  /JK-Soon-pepper-guns-to-quell-slingshot s/articleshow/6160399.cms

Posted by Seth | Report as abusive
 

Tupak:

As they say if you cannot convince them confuse the hell out of them. So you are throwing miles and piles of unrelated issues—some of them are non-existent.

what does “Sati” has to do with kashmir issue? Zero–nothing. LOL

My original point was that there is no Azadi (freedom) in Azad kashmir. Azad kashmir is SHAMELESSLY run by Pakistanis. While Pakistan asks for self-determination by Kashmiris, the constitution of Azad Kashmir is such that self-determination is BANNED. Only those who show allegiance to Pakistan are allowed to participate in the political process. that there are serious human rights violations in Kashmir and Northern Areas.

None of the above has been addressed and u started firing same old stuff.

I am not going to get lost in the miles and piles of your same material which all together indicates Indian Army action leads to death of Kashmiri youth. Without getting into the magnitude of it, I do not think it can be denied that Indian security action leads to death of sometimes innocent Kashmiris. Heard ya loud and clear. Now move on.

http://balawaristan.blogspot.com/2008/01  /serious-human-rights-violations-in.htm l

{{{Serious human rights violations in Gilgit Baltistan}}}

“”The right of self-determination for Kashmiris was hypocritical because Pakistan, through its imposed constitution of 1974, has already provided for pre-determination in favour of Pakistan. The said constitution says: “No person or political party in Azad Kashmir shall be permitted to propagate against, or take part in activities prejudicial or detrimental to, the ideology of the State” accession to Pakistan.” “”"

“The focus of debates on Kashmir at the annual meetings of United Nations Human Rights Commission in Geneva (UNCHR) has certainly changed over the past about 10 years. Ten years ago the Commission heard mainly what the Pakistan funded non-government organizations (NGOs) had to parrot about the right of self-determination of Kashmiris in the part of Kashmir that is on the Indian side of the Line of Control (LOC) and India’s alleged violations of human rights.

“One remembers the furore the Prime Minister of Pakistan kicked off in March 1994 when she moved a resolution on alleged violations of human rights in Kashmir. Ms. Bhutto had hoped that at least Muslim countries would support this resolution. Pakistan had to withdraw it because no support came from the Muslim countries. This was a serious setback to Pakistan’s diplomacy.”

Posted by RajeevK | Report as abusive
 

http://www.jammu-kashmir.com/insights/in sight990902.html
By Sultan Shaheen

http://www.jammu-kashmir.com/insights/in sight20080628.html
The Human Rights Problem in Gilgit-Baltistan
Paul Beersmans
STATE SPONSOR OF TERRORISM AND IMPACT OF SUCH POLICIES ON HUMAN RIGHTS IN AZAD JAMMU AND KASHMIR

In Azad Jammu and Kashmir the socio-political and cultural landscape of the region has been adversely affected since it has been the epicentre of the Kashmir jihad for a long time. Terrorist jihadi organisations engaged in violence in the Indian Jammu and Kashmir State have camps and offices in Muzaffarabad, the capital, and elsewhere in Azad Kashmir. They mainly owe their existence to Inter Services Intelligence (Pakistan’s military intelligence agency) support. Fundamental freedoms, such as the freedom of movement, freedom of expression, freedom of assembly and freedom of association are often infringed under various pretences. Creation of independent media are being prevented through bureaucratic restrictions and coercion. The people in Azad Kashmir have lost not only their fundamental rights, but all rights whatsoever. This exploitation continues, although there is an increasing awareness among the people today, and occasional voices of protest can now be heard. 5

CONCLUSIONS

“Asma Jahangir, special UN rapporteur on Human Rights, appeals to the friends of Pakistan to urge the US Administration to stop all support of the instable dictator, as his lust for power is bringing the country close to a worse form of civil strife. She believes that Musharraf has to be taken out of the equation and a government of national reconciliation to be put in place. It must be backed by the military. Short of this there are no realistic solutions.

“Military training, cooperation and aid should be reviewed. At the same time aid for education, poverty reduction, healthcare and relief work should be expanded, channelling money through secular non-governmental organisations (NGOs)

“Successive Pakistani governments, which call for ‘basic Human Rights’ in the Indian Jammu and Kashmir State, ignore these very rights in the case of the Northern Areas and Azad Jammu and Kashmir.

“Militants, fundamentalists and even the Government of Pakistan have argued that in the Kashmir case, the special concept of jihad or holy war applies, which supersedes all international humanitarian law but in a world of myriad religions and ways of life, no one religious interpretation can substitute for internationally accepted standards and law.

“Democracy is not only more acceptable than military rule, but would reduce the influence of fundamentalist Islamists significantly. Speak out unequivocally for democracy in Pakistan, rejecting the idea that martial law is needed for stability, and demand a return to constitutional order. What are needed are political solutions to conflicts and improved long-term security. Non of this will be easy to implement but it offers more hope than more of the same. Pakistan needs change: it can only begin when military dictatorship goes and democracy returns.

Posted by RajeevK | Report as abusive
 
 

http://www.jammu-kashmir.com/insights/in sight20080628.html
The Human Rights Problem in Gilgit-Baltistan
Paul Beersmans
STATE SPONSOR OF TERRORISM AND IMPACT OF SUCH POLICIES ON HUMAN RIGHTS IN AZAD JAMMU AND KASHMIR

In Azad Jammu and Kashmir the socio-political and cultural landscape of the region has been adversely affected since it has been the epicentre of the Kashmir jihad for a long time. Terrorist jihadi organisations engaged in violence in the Indian Jammu and Kashmir State have camps and offices in Muzaffarabad, the capital, and elsewhere in Azad Kashmir. They mainly owe their existence to Inter Services Intelligence (Pakistan’s military intelligence agency) support. Fundamental freedoms, such as the freedom of movement, freedom of expression, freedom of assembly and freedom of association are often infringed under various pretences. Creation of independent media are being prevented through bureaucratic restrictions and coercion. The people in Azad Kashmir have lost not only their fundamental rights, but all rights whatsoever. This exploitation continues, although there is an increasing awareness among the people today, and occasional voices of protest can now be heard. 5

CONCLUSIONS

“Asma Jahangir, special UN rapporteur on Human Rights, appeals to the friends of Pakistan to urge the US Administration to stop all support of the instable dictator, as his lust for power is bringing the country close to a worse form of civil strife. She believes that Musharraf has to be taken out of the equation and a government of national reconciliation to be put in place. It must be backed by the military. Short of this there are no realistic solutions.

“Military training, cooperation and aid should be reviewed. At the same time aid for education, poverty reduction, healthcare and relief work should be expanded, channelling money through secular non-governmental organisations (NGOs)

“Successive Pakistani governments, which call for ‘basic Human Rights’ in the Indian Jammu and Kashmir State, ignore these very rights in the case of the Northern Areas and Azad Jammu and Kashmir.

“Militants, fundamentalists and even the Government of Pakistan have argued that in the Kashmir case, the special concept of jihad or holy war applies, which supersedes all international humanitarian law but in a world of myriad religions and ways of life, no one religious interpretation can substitute for internationally accepted standards and law.

“Democracy is not only more acceptable than military rule, but would reduce the influence of fundamentalist Islamists significantly. Speak out unequivocally for democracy in Pakistan, rejecting the idea that martial law is needed for stability, and demand a return to constitutional order. What are needed are political solutions to conflicts and improved long-term security. Non of this will be easy to implement but it offers more hope than more of the same. Pakistan needs change: it can only begin when military dictatorship goes and democracy returns.

Posted by RajeevK | Report as abusive
 

http://www.kashmiri.info/index2.php?opti on=com_content&do_pdf=1&id=1050

Constitutional Structure of Azad Kashmir and Its Relationship to Pakistan

Government of Azad Kashmir, by the Pakistanis, for Pakistan.
Former president of Azad Kashmir (name withheld)

A former president of Azad Kashmir (who preferred not to be named in this report) described the situation as “[g]overnment of Azad Kashmir, by the Pakistanis, for Pakistan.” He also pointed to the striking continuity of the “old princely system” under British rule because of Islamabad’s “viceroy” role generally and the maintenance of the traditional biradarisystem locally.41

“”The constitution of Azad Kashmir poses major impediments towards genuine democracy as it bars all those parties and individuals from participating in the political process who do not support the idea of Kashmir’s accession to Pakistan and hence precludes all those who are in favor of Kashmiri independence. To fail to support, or fail to appear to support Kashmir’s accession to Pakistan means to invite the ire of Pakistan’s abusive intelligence agencies and its military. It also entails inviting political persecution, such as ineligibility to contest elections or to seek employment with any government institution, or the curtailing of basic freedom of expression.”"

Posted by RajeevK | Report as abusive
 

@ Shakir

—”What’s in a name? That which we call a rose
By any other name would smell as sweet.”

“not true. An azad rose smells so much sweeter”

Well said bro.

Posted by Shuqaib.Bhutto | Report as abusive
 

“not true. An azad rose smells so much sweeter”
Posted by tupak_shakir

AND A NICE TIGHT SLAP…

“A state or territory does not become Azad just by preceding it’s name with the word “Azad”. Azad Kashmir is just as “Azad” as the Democratic People’s Republic of Korea (North Korea) is “Democratic”.”

Posted by Mortal1

Posted by X_factor | Report as abusive
 

And an azad rose dries and dies quicker as well. Let it be rooted to the ground that gave birth to it and nurtured it so that it may give fragrance in future.

Posted by Seth | Report as abusive
 

The Indian leaders are now bankrupt: They have lost the credibility to find a solution for the kashmiris. They need to consult their big brother the USA to learn “how to withdraw their military from the occupied territory without creating a human disaster in the continent or create a war between the nuclear equiped armadas of two main actors whose radicals are simply awaiting for long overdue vengence against each other. The macho India which has managed to live with the chaos with the so called democracy coupled with the use of military for sixty years and Pakistan which has not learned to have a stable civilian Govt. without the involvement of the military. The UNO operating under the old world power system is the weakest of all the villains in the history of mankind. Instead of resolving issues they are simply and very simply impotent because of the veto powers.
Rex Minor

Posted by pakistan | Report as abusive
 

A million boots cannot ‘nurture’ anything except terror and oppression.

Posted by Shuqaib.Bhutto | Report as abusive
 

A reply to Pakistani critics by a Kashmiri:

Dr Shabir Choudhry
http://drshabirchoudhry.blogspot.com/

1. Thank you for your input in response to my article: “Gilgit Baltistan and Shafqat Inquilabi”.

2. I wholeheartedly condemn all human rights violations committed in Kashmir; and I demand that culprits must be punished for their crimes. I hope you have the courage to condemn the following:

A/ Can you condemn killing of innocent Kashmiris during the Tribal Invasion sponsored by Pakistan in 1947. Also can you condemn rapes, kidnapping of Kashmiri women and girls, and looting of my homeland – Kashmir, which was done in name of Jihad in 1947/8

B/ Can you also condemn Killings and imprisonment of people of Azad Kashmir at the hands of Pakistan during the Poonch rebellion in mid 1950s. Unlike militants in the Valley, these people did not have training, arms or money from secret agency of enemy country, they were simply asking for their democratic rights.

C/ Can you also condemn arrest and inhuman torture inflicted upon people of Azad Kashmir by Pakistan during Ganga Hijacking investigations. Even reading of those atrocities could put Nazi cruelties to shame.

D/ Can you condemn rapes and other human rights violations which still take place along the LOC on the Pakistani side of the divide, which people do not report due to stigma and repercussions; and no human rights organisation on the Pakistani side of the divide has courage to speak about them?

E/ Can you condemn denial of fundamental rights to people of Pakistani Administered Kashmir for decades; and looting and plunder of our resources?

F/Can you condemn denial of fundamental rights to people of Gilgit Baltistan – they were ruled by draconian laws with no accountability for decades?

G/Can you condemn annexation of Gilgit Baltistan by Pakistan, while pretending to be Muslim brother and friend of people of Jammu and Kashmir? Pakistani establishment has hidden their colonial designs under the cover of Islam, which is shameful.

Posted by Seekeroftruth | Report as abusive
 

Million boots are there to keep Pakistani military budget at 70% for another decade. Government has to pay Army if they stay home or they stay in Kashmir. Why not use them to continue terrifying Pakistani establishment and make them spend all their budget on military and cause an economic defeat. If they don’t take the bait and spend budget on education and nation-building, radicalization goes down, people become prosperous and once society achieve sufficient economic status they become afraid of loosing it. Economy is the reason India did not respond to Mumbai attacks. Same way, when Pakistani economy goes up, people start minding their own business instead of indulging in useless quarrels and risk loosing their present and future. Peace and friendship prevails.

Victory both ways for India!

Posted by Seth | Report as abusive
 

In continuation of previous post…

Failure and radicalization of Pakistan has already helped India. Previously, Pakistan used to be only India’s headache and now it has become a global problem. Looking at the number of bomb blasts in Pakistan, you ordinary Pakistanis are paying through your nose for the sins of your ISI, Army and the government.

Posted by Seth | Report as abusive
 

Last weekend, I watched this movie “Unthinkable” – its about an American citizen (Christian converted to Islam) who plants nukes in US cities and puts his demands.

Without giving any further details, when they capture the terrorist they coerce him to reveal the bombs’ location and in return, they promise him a safe passage to PAKISTAN (out of nowhere). The terrorist did not ask for it, btw. The question for Pakistanis is that why could not they think of any other country but Pakistan?

Posted by Seth | Report as abusive
 

Pakistan asks for self-determination by Kashmiris and “pre-determines” that Kashmir will be part of Pakistan.

:-)

Posted by RajeevK | Report as abusive
 

Tupak:

@And that my personal self interest is nothing but to seek Freedom.Freedom from everything Indian and Freedom from those who have deprived my nation of self respect, dignified living, national identity and free atmosphere.”
—Hey me too. Ever since Mumbai terroist attack, I have totally stopped eating “Shaan foods” and others product from Pakistan. Hope is that the charity by Pakistani businesses will buy Pakistani terrorists one less bullet for my countrymen for each dubba I buy.

Posted by RajeevK | Report as abusive
 

pictures of kashmiris in india:

http://www.qazimamoon.com/
……………………………..

I think they’ve been ‘nurtured’ enough already.

Posted by Shuqaib.Bhutto | Report as abusive
 

—- Shuqaib, i am beginning to think the attitude of these commenters represents their hinduvta majority.
Posted by tupak_shakir

Yes, anyone who disagrees with you & the terrorism agenda of your army/establishment represents “hindutva”, even though he or she might be sikh, muslim, christian, parsi, other or even non-Indian. Tyypical bigotry!

Posted by Mortal1 | Report as abusive
 

@Seth
one thing is sure from the film the convert fixed the nukes but his love your enemy christian heart asked him to negotiate. I guess the punishment was very severe. They should have send him to Gitmo guest house, which I understand has improved a lot under the new management. Sorry, I forgot about the leak which remains unpluggesd?
Rex Minor

Posted by pakistan | Report as abusive
 

@RexMinor,

The movie’s title is “Unthikable” – if you have not seen it, its really unthinkable (for Westerners) for what they did to him. Check it out, its not a bad watch for a rainy Sunday.

But the point of my post was that they offered him a safe passage to Pakistan in return and the guy was an American citizen.

Posted by Seth09 | Report as abusive
 

Correction: Unthinkable

Posted by Seth09 | Report as abusive
 

More reasons not to have another Muslim-majority nation:

“From Pakistan, a human rights activist has sent me a sickening account of a Christian whose wife and four children were killed last month in Jhelum. Apparently, Jamshed Masih, a Christian policeman, was told to move from the predominantly Muslim colony where he and his family lived.

Before the attack, Masih’s 11-year old son went to a local shop, and was refused service on the grounds that he was a non-Muslim. On his return, locals led by Maulana Mahfooz Khan entered the house, asserting that the boy had committed blasphemy and must be punished. Mrs Masih pleaded with the mob, and asked them to wait until her husband returned, but somebody threw an object at her head. Her daughter managed to call her father, but by the time he returned, his family had all been massacred.”

Full article at: http://www.dawn.com/wps/wcm/connect/dawn -content-library/dawn/the-newspaper/colu mnists/irfan-husain-who-will-cast-the-fi rst-stone-470

Posted by Seth09 | Report as abusive
 

^^^^^^^’Topic diversion’ FAIL^^^^^^^

Posted by Shuqaib.Bhutto | Report as abusive
 

@seth
you are looking for logic in a film. I do not detect any logic in the USA administration. Listen to this two of the apparent innocent Gitmo so called terrorists are coming to Germany. well the explanation is that they cannot be tried because of alack of evidence, they were also tortured and are Palistzinians and therefore no home for them. Well the German interior minister has agreed as a christian to take them and heal their sufferings by giving them the psychiatric treatment if necessary.
Rex Minor
Ps when you discover the logic please tell me. Are there no christians in the USA to heal these so called very sick people?

Posted by pakistan | Report as abusive
 

@Rex Minor,

We’re clearly talking two different things. You are rightfully talking about those who were detained w/o any evidences and tortured at Gitmo, lets say outside legal framework. Abuse of power and unethical, had to be stopped! No one here thinks of US as a saint with its selfish policies and the arm-twisting that goes with it. Pakistanis know this much better than Indians. For me the logic is very clear, business to business US greatly benefits India and vice-versa. People to people, everyone has something to learn from each other and amalgamation of culture is a great thing. Government to government, we may have common interests but we’re not friends since friendship happens among equals and we’re not equals.

But two wrongs don’t make one right. The point was that Pakistan people have successfully managed to earn a bad reputation for their nation to such a level that even creative industries are taking the liberty to make otherwise politically incorrect statements about the entire nation.

Posted by Seth | Report as abusive
 

@Seth
I am sorry iwas simply replying to your question about logic. In my opinion neither India nor Pakistan are Nations in true sense. Pakistan leaders are at least trying but their start was faulty, separate state on the basis of religion.Israel has similar difficulties and worst and struggling. Indian leaders are not even trying to make a Nation from the people living in the country left by the Brits. Everything rotates around chaos and hindu religion. The minorities do not appear to have an equal role. The Govt. democratically elected show no respect for theirvery large muslim population. Neighbouring countries are blamed for domestic problems. The foreign policy is a classic disaster since independence.Who are the people the Govt. of India represents? Do they protest against the mistreatment of muslims by the USA or Israel or do they believe it is not in their country’s interest. It is certainly in their muslim citizen’s interest. India has no peace treaty with any of their neighbours? Do they want to play Hitler’s game of the the forties? Why did India intrude into former East Pakistan territory, was it to save the Bengalis from persecution or? Why did they not stop Siri Lankan army’s genocide aagainst the Temils? Was it to show non interference in the domestic affairs of another country? I am not an Indian and have never been there, but do you see any logic. I do not. How does one make a cohesive Nation from the people of a country? I am not an expert but can sense that neither India nor Pakistan are Nations in any sense? I am sorry if I do upset any one for whom these questions are very sensitive. I do not represent any one nor do I favour any side, and I am equally consious of the difficulty to maintain a neutral position. But for heaven’s sake let us not try to live in the fool’s paradise and consider others as uneducated, illetrate and barabarians and continue to talk above the heads of people rather than with their intelect. The USA is unfortunately a declining colonial power whichdespite its intrusion in foreign lands did not manage to keep them. India is well advised to look east and not make the same mistake again when aligning with the communist USSR. have a nice day.
Rex Minor

Posted by pakistan | Report as abusive
 

RexMinor:
@Everything rotates around chaos and hindu religion.
—what makes u think so? Then with 80% Hindus as majority, one would expect BJP ruling all the time. FYI: BJP is a Hindu nationalist political party in India.

@chaos: Then you are a foreigner to the South Asia. Chaos is an order in the region—India and neighboring countries—it is nothing negative or positive it is just the way it is.

Few Qns:

1. is China a true Nation according to you?

2. is Chinese Army a Nationalist Army

3. Do minorities have equal rights?

Posted by RajeevK | Report as abusive
 

@RajeevK
Here are the answers;
.China in my opinion is a great nation and will surpass the super status of the declining USA.
. Chinese army is the Nation’s army.
. In democracy the minorities usually have equal rights. The chinese have not yet completed the democritization process.
what I admire about the Chinese foreign policy is non interference in the domestic policies of other countries. This is very foreign in western countries, mainly on account of their colonial past. I wish India and Pakistan would follow this policy as well.
Rex Minor

Posted by pakistan | Report as abusive
 

@RajeevK
I am not a constitutional expert nor very much fond of percentages. India has a very large muslim population and the Govt is supposed to represent their interests as well. How they do it it is their business, but in foreign policies the leaders should consider this. To have all the muslims as fifth columnist could become a disaster. Their foreign policy should consider this, the British Govt. does with a relatively smaller mulim population. France and Germany currently do not either. It certzainly does not give them any advantage nor can they have complete loyalty from them. A good example, some of the finest footbal players of algerian origin played in the world cup for the Algerian national team, though they were born in France. The political stance of the new bonapart president forced the french born Algerians allegance to Algeria, their grandfather country. If I understand correctly India has more muslims than Pakistan muslim population?
Rex Minor

Posted by pakistan | Report as abusive
 

@Rex Minor,

Before we go any further, can I safely assume that I’m talking to a woman here? The hunch is based on the kind of half-romance half-idealism you usually show about the world order combined with your sweeping generalizations and the “sophisticated” communication gap everybody seems to feel with your posts.

You don’t spend any energy in trying to wake a person who is not asleep in the first place. All I can say is that you have a very warped view of things and I’m better off by not doing anything about it. I’m sorry Rex, I have neither the energy nor any desire to answer your baseless remarks like following:

“Indian leaders are not even trying to make a Nation”
“Everything rotates around chaos and hindu religion.”
“Do they protest against the mistreatment of muslims by the USA or Israel or do they believe it is not in their country’s interest. It is certainly in their muslim citizen’s interest.”
“The Govt. democratically elected show no respect for theirvery large muslim population.”

May be we should wait 10-15 years when you have finished your education (or have matured otherwise) and perhaps then we might be able to communicate.

PS: You remind me of my favorite author Alexandre Dumas who wrote, and I quote him, “All generalizations are dangerous, even this one”.

Posted by Seth | Report as abusive
 

@Seth
Well said. Sorry, I am not writing a book on this forum. Perhaps you should enjoy your reading A dumas. Your note remind be of the sixteenth century French theoligist Professor who said that since no one complains to god about the insufficient common sense they have, proves that all humans are blessed with equal common sense. In my opinion he was in error!!
Have a nice day.
Rex Minor

Posted by pakistan | Report as abusive
 

@Rex Minor

You still haven’t cleared your position about that “your ancestors” vs “our ancestors” remark. At least you can say “no comments” and we’d know your “official” stance on your roots. So much for integrity and conscience!

BTW, having common sense and applying common sense are two different things. Isn’t that common sense?

Have a good one!

Posted by Seth | Report as abusive
 

@Seth
In my opinion you are a dreamer too much influenced by the books you read. One of my friends once told me that when an Indian has learned to read, he is not selective like a european, he would read anything. This is your inherent problem. I do not wish to rob you of your imaginations and assumoptions about my person or the world as you see it. Please enjoy while you dream and imagine. The reality is not very pleasant anyway.
Rex Minor

Posted by pakistan | Report as abusive
 

@Rex Minor

You are free to have generalized opinions about specific things, events and people including me. For me (and if I may speak for others) you are a toddler with a crayon in their hand. You can still draw anything anywhere but, lets just say, it will not make any sense. For a “dreamer” like yours truly, you are very much like your friend who was stupid enough to generalize Indians (and Europeans alike) about their reading habits and on top of that you got influenced by an ordinary individual’s views too.

Now the question that you seem hesitant answering:

What is your stance about that “your ancestors” vs “our ancestors” remark? At least you can say “no comments” and we’d know your “official” stance on your roots.

This is what you posted:
“I estimate a period of fifty odd years for the advanncement of Pashtoons out of their bunkers and to spread across the sub continent. The route is know to them and your ancestors in India experienced this and this is not to say that it is unlikely to happen again”

I can assure you that I’ll keep posting same question again and again unless you answer it or try to deviate the discussion by posting any of your gibberish directed at me.

Have a nice day! :)

Posted by Seth | Report as abusive
 

@Seth
Are you so naive about the Indian history. Did the Afghan*s rule did not extend into punjab. Did the Afghan warriors did not rule India.? Have you never come across the name khan in India? Have you never come across the grave yards of Patiala where Pashtoons fought, lived and died. Who were the rulers of India before the Brits came? Who were the warriors who haught with Babar? Are you genuinely that ignorant? Today the Pashtoons are all across Pakistan and not very far from the Indian borders. Is Indian army in a position to stop their infiltration or do they expect Pakistan Army to worry about India’s security. Indian PM calling the infiltrators as terrorists is not going to help him in his military adventure in Kashmir valley. Have I said enough to explain the words “Your ancestors”. If you are not of Indian origin than you were not addressed.
Take it easy and have a nice day. Next time you do not understand a sentence then please say so and not raise questions.
Rex Minor

Posted by pakistan | Report as abusive
 

Forget region’s history, talk of your own. My ancestors fought with foreign invaders, fine. Who were your ancestors? Foreign invaders on your fore-fathers’ side and raped and tortured women on your mother’s side?

You Pakistanis are hypocrites.

Posted by Seth | Report as abusive
 

RexMinor:

My qn was: Do minorities In China have equal rights?

You said:

“In democracy the minorities usually have equal rights. The chinese have not yet completed the democritization process.”

—100s of Chinese that I met hate the word “democracy”.

Good luck expecting minorties in China having equal rights since China is not aiming for democracy. Then that kills China as nation by ur definition since minorities are not protected.

I am for India/Pak non interference in each others’s domestic policies of other countries.

Posted by RajeevK | Report as abusive
 

@RajeevK
Sorry i did not think you were referring to Chinese on minority rights. Besides the Chinese there are many in the world who do not understand the definition’democracy’. India also has their form of democracy and in europe there is a different form of democracy. Since we are conversing in English language we are using the word democracy which from my memory was born in Greece. Remember, China became a cohesive Nation during communism and to go all out for democracy the Nation would split further. We already have Taiwan and Hongkong! So therefore the approach to china is to discuss human rights first, and then take them slowly and slowly towards democracy. The recent German chancellor’s visit was used to tell the Chinese PM about the extention of human rights to all. Sorry, you are not a believer, but in the three religions of the book it is the God’s commandment to treat others as equals, as you would like to be treated by them, something along the lines. Once you achieve this, one is bound to have equal rights for all citizens. Incidently What is the treatment of minorities in India? China is definitely not going to follow the anglo saxon or the european model of democracies. What matters is the human rights, and that should be the basis for a society and we as the people need to agree on “what the human rights are”. For example in Germany “the right to work is guaranteed in the constitution. Is this the case in the UK or USA? I doubt it. I wish India nd Pakistan could follow the non-interference policy of China as well, but this is not their fault since they inherited it from the colonialists. You tell the USA administration not to interfere in the domestic affairs of other countries, this would sound very foreign to them. How could they survive without interference. Why are they called Gringos and hated by all the south american countries. It is a shame for I have found americans in many parts of the USA the most friendly, generous and hospitable people in the world. Just imagine the marshall plan they developed to reconstruct Germany the enemy they destroyed first. Without the marshal plan Germany would have required many more years for recovery.
Rex Minor

Posted by pakistan | Report as abusive
 

Mr Minor:

My point was to challenge China as a “nation” under your definition since China does not care about minorities. 90% Han is what matters to China, rest all—10% of chinese population is a lot—are minority. In my experience, I have seen Chinse around me using this term “minority” very frequently. So this shows up at people level–based on my limited interaction with 100s of Chinese. China is not looking for democracy since they have reached here without democracy and want to be without it. Those who want democracy in China are found handing out flyers in the USA for their movement since they are thrown out of China.

If Chinese are not for democracy, it is not a bad thing if that works for them. You can split hair on this and that democracy. Chinese are allergic to the word democracy since communism and now unofficial capitalism is what has made their country great, not democracy.

Going back to the original point, if until Minorities are given equal status and taken care off China should not be called a nation (by ur definition). you say democracy is must for protection of minorities. So let us not call China as a nation until they achieve democracy, Also let us not called Chinese army as Nationalist Army until minorities are take care off. The country under discussion is China—not USA nor India.

But to me China is a nation and they need to sort out problems just like any other country need to do.

Posted by RajeevK | Report as abusive
 

@Rajeevk
I fully agree with the last sentence of your comments. It does not matter about my definition of a Nation, we have to look towards the world wide acceptance of a Nation, bound by its institutions and the constitution, secular or some other form, the cohesiveness must be there without apartheied or straight slavery. Democracy is also not static, it is a process, each country without interference of others should be allowed to sort out their domestic issues. Yes, the problem is that many fail and start commiting atrocities against their own citizens to the extent of ethnic cleansing and this becomes the concern of the world and no longer the country’s internal affair. China was wrong to use their principle in the case of kosovo, regarding Serbia’s sovereignstatus.After all we are all human species and do get involöved and try to protect even a wife from her husband and a child from his own parents if there is a continued violence. Countries become failed states and loose any right to rule them. Such countries had not achieved the status of a NATION. If China is unable to sort out the mess in their muslim province then they have no right to hang on to the province. I am sure Chinese Govt. is conscous of their responsibility.
Rex Minor

Posted by pakistan | Report as abusive
 

RexMinor:
@I fully agree with the last sentence of your comments. ”

The last sentence was:
@But to me China is a nation and they need to sort out problems just like any other country need to do.”

—So like Chinese, who need to take care of minorities, India, Pakistan etc are also nations. How much each nation has succeeded and failed can be left to analysts.

Posted by RajeevK | Report as abusive
 

Looks like some people have too much time to comment on this post than work for a living. It is something similar with the people of Kashmir, they have too many privileges and dont need to think about earning enough through legitimate means to keep their family going, hence all this. India should remove all the privileges that it gives to Kashmiris, give them a taste of the Talibani rule or the Chinese rule that they are so dying for (because if independent, they will either be taken over by China or Pakistan=Taliban).

Posted by kusum79 | Report as abusive
 

@Looks like some people have too much time to comment on this post than work for a living.”
-Posted by kusum79

—Thanks for the introduction and letting us know what you do err don’t.

Posted by RajeevK | Report as abusive
 

Having gone through the article and in it read the Ministry’s version wish speaks exactly like Israel used the certificate of “In Self Defense” Given to them by the ex-President of Us which ultimately landed them to become Genocide committal criminals.

The Indians got the certificate of Pakistan’s Laskar-e-Taiaba issued by the Human Rights Commission to mention to stop the World community’s mouth shut and kill as many as Kashmiri Muslim India need to kill. The Human Rights Commission will never inquire into.

The Fact as in on record never the Human Rights Commission inquired into the killing that went on by India even those politically sponsored. Why was not inquired? Will the Human Right Commission be gracious enough to kindly mind to reply in detail in righting for the kind information of the world forum?

However, there is allegation that all these years India invested huge amount to keep Human Rights commission silent on these killing and not to inquire.

Political Observers opined henceforth all killings of Kashmiri Muslims be inquired by Human Right Commission to find if crime against Humanity was committed by Indian Force. If found positive then appropriate case of genocide were started without, fail.

Posted by KINGFISHER | Report as abusive
 

Having gone through the article and in it read the Ministry’s version wish speaks exactly like Israel used the certificate of “In Self Defense” Given to them by the ex-President of Us which ultimately landed them to become Genocide committal criminals.

The Indians got the certificate of Pakistan’s Laskar-e-Taiaba issued by the Human Rights Commission to mention to stop the World community’s mouth shut and kill as many as Kashmiri Muslim India need to kill. The Human Rights Commission will never inquire into.

The Fact as in on record never the Human Rights Commission inquired into the killing that went on by India even those politically sponsored. Why was not inquired? Will the Human Right Commission be gracious enough to kindly mind to reply in detail in righting for the kind information of the world forum?

However, there is allegation that all these years India invested huge amount to keep Human Rights commission silent on these killing and not to inquire.

Political Observers opined henceforth all killings of Kashmiri Muslims be inquired by Human Right Commission to find if crime against Humanity was committed by Indian Force. If found positive then appropriate case of genocide were started without, fail.

Posted by KINGFISHER | Report as abusive
 

Well, India has ultimately come down to her own original tactics of killing own citizens and blaming the neighboring country.

Is it not a shame for all democratic countries to see their beloved largest democracy killing own citizens like birds. After all is it because they all are Muslims and are not Hindus so it goes along with the governments policy to kill and kill to the entire satisfaction of Indian government.

It is a matter to be thought why, Human Rights commission is silent and has not declared this mass murder of unarmed innocent civilians to over 100 by police firing. What else will it be called birthday party killing for welcoming the government blood bath murder plan of Muslims to silence the demand of the Kashmir people forever with the participation of the Human Rights commission.. .

I think world wide demonstrations against this illegal killing should be staged to demonstrate India is committing Genocide in Kashmir similar to Sudan and it needs to be stopped with and iron hand by UN.

Posted by KINGFISHER | Report as abusive
 

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