India and Pakistan, living up to low expectations

July 17, 2010

qureshikrishnaHopes of progress were low when the foreign ministers of India and Pakistan met in Islamabad last week and the two sides lived up to expectations, disagreeing on how to move their relationship forward and blaming each other for souring the mood. 

Pakistan took exception to the timing of remarks by the Indian Home Secretary on the eve of the talks accusing the Inter-Services Intelligence (ISI) agency of involvement in the November 2008 attack on Mumbai.  India objected to comments made by Pakistan Foreign Minister Shah Mehmood Qureshi comparing those remarks to anti-India speeches given by Hafez Saeed, the founder of the Lashkar-e-Taiba militant group blamed for Mumbai.  Qureshi complained his counterpart repeatedly took instructions from Delhi during their talks, an accusation that Indian External Affairs Minister S.M. Krishna denied.

Signs are, however, that the mood is steadying and the two countries are trying to put the acrimony behind them.

Pakistan Prime Minister Yusuf Raza Gilani said Pakistan wanted good relations with India and both sides were sincere in improving ties. Indian Foreign Secretary Nirupama Rao, the country’s top diplomat, also stressed in interviews with television channel NDTV and with CNN-IBN that the process of dialogue must continue.  “I think in diplomacy, as in life, disappointments such as these needs to be surmounted, because as neighbours India and Pakistan will have to deal with each other,” she said. “We don’t have the luxury of maintaining irresolvable distances between our two countries.”

In an editorial, The Hindu newspaper argued not only that dialogue must continue, but that India and Pakistan must learn the lessons of the Islamabad talks by encouraging officials of both countries to be more restrained in their public comments. Indian Home Secretary G.K. Pillai, it said, should have known better than to air in public India’s allegation about ISI involvement in Mumbai on the eve of the foreign ministers’ talks, an allegation which was not particularly new and which had already been conveyed to Islamabad.  ”Its public airing at a sensitive moment raises troubling questions about the motives for doing so, and about who really runs this government,” it said. ”The Pakistan Foreign Minister too has been unnecessarily aggressive in his posturing towards India, perhaps out of domestic political compulsions.”

Those comments found an unlikely echo in the person of Hamid Gul, former head of the ISI, who said the remarks from both Pillai and Qureshi were unnecessary.  “I think we need to douse the fires of aggression,” he said.

Pakistan’s Dawn newspaper said in an editorial that the acrimony over the Islamabad talks could actually indicate that Pakistan and India were making a sincere effort to engage with each other - although it also did not rule out the possibility that hawks on both sides of the border were out to sabotage the process.

“The more optimistic interpretation is that India and Pakistan are warily re-engaging one another, the diplomatic hiccups the result of a nascent but real process of rebuilding trust and confidence in a relationship poisoned by mutual distrust,” it said. ”For a dispute that is over six decades old, a few months …  is a mere blink of an eye. The optimists suggest that the excruciatingly slow pace of re-engagement isn’t indicative of problems but a way of building a solid base for the next phase of the peace dialogue between the two countries. Rational and sensible people on both sides of the border will be hoping that it is the optimistic hypothesis which is true.”

Qureshi and Krishna will have another chance to meet on the sidelines of an international conference on Afghanistan in Kabul next week. Prime Minister Manmohan Singh and Gilani – who are the ones who are really driving the dialogue process - could also have an opportunity to talk on the sidelines of the United Nations General Assembly in New York in September. Qureshi has also been invited to visit India, although no dates have been set.

It will be a long slow process - and one that is always vulnerable to another major militant attack. And as yet, the nature of that re-engagement has yet to really take form.  On the surface, the most obvious disagreement is over what should be discussed – India wants action on what it calls cross-border terrorism; Pakistan wants all issues discussed, including what it sees as the core issue of Kashmir.

But the problems run much deeper than that, in what B.Raman, formerly at Indian intelligence agency, the Research & Analysis Wing (R&AW), calls here the “negative reflexes” which have dominated attitudes in both countries since the violent partition of the subcontinent in 1947. (Do read his article for a proposal on how dialogue between the two countries should be structured.)

I would argue they go back even further than 1947, into an asymmetry of thinking between the then-dominant Congress party which wanted an independent, secular and united India, and the Muslim League, which insisted Muslims would neither be safe from Hindu domination nor achieve their political aspirations without a separate homeland.  In other words, Congress favoured the status quo, but with India ruled by Indians rather than the British; the Muslim League favoured radical change.  Congress insisted Muslims would be safe in a secular and united India; the Muslim League said they would be threatened.

Much of that asymmetry in thinking remains visible today.  India wants dialogue to proceed through incremental confidence building measures; Pakistan wants a more radical, all-encompassing peace deal.  When it comes to Kashmir, India favours the status quo; Pakistan wants change and in the past has been prepared to nurture Islamist militant groups – some of which are now turning against Pakistan – to force that change. 

As Robert Grenier, a former CIA station chief in Islamabad argues here,  “The fundamental problem is that the status quo, with India in effective control of most of Jammu and Kashmir, favours India. Thus, a sustained series of so-called confidence building measures which reduces the threat of hostilities has the effect of making the status quo more tolerable for India over time, thus creating a strong disincentive for India to engage in a real negotiation. Correspondingly, in Pakistan, confidence building measures in the absence of progress on the core issues in dispute only make the prospect of Indian concessions on Kashmir all the more unlikely and, thus, a policy focused initially on creating trust all the less sustainable.

“This is especially true where terrorism and militant groups are concerned.  In South Asia, as elsewhere, terrorism is the tool of the weak. Without any other effective means of redressing Indian repression of Muslims in Indian administered Kashmir, a Pakistani focus on cracking down on so called “Kashmiri” militant groups based in Pakistan itself is unlikely to be accepted by the army, and only risks further undermining a Pakistani government already beset with domestic militant threats on all sides.”

The asymmetry is clear even in the language both countries use. India says Kashmir is not disputed; Pakistan says it is. India says it is not a threat to Pakistan; yet Islamabad, and more particularly the generals in Rawalpindi, say it is.  Indian politicians sometimes like to stress that India as a rising world power has more important concerns than focusing on Pakistan, infuriating Pakistanis who see this as another expression of Indian insistence on the status quo and evidence of the perceived arrogance of its much bigger neighbour.

You can’t change the asymmetry in thinking which grew out of an earlier era, in 1930s British India.  But can India and Pakistan at least acknowledge its existence, and in doing so, find a way to transform their faltering dialogue process into a durable peace?

(Update/postscript: Siddharth Varadarajan at The Hindu has a useful readout on why the foreign ministers’ talks failed, blaming this in particular on an inability to agree a timeline for holding talks on Siachen)

Comments

@ Saif

Salaam.

The reason why I did not participate in your very constructive effort in the previous blog entry was because…

(i) I’ve done these exercises countless times before with my Indian and Pakistani friends. The end result is always the same. ALWAYS.

(ii) My main purpose for commenting on this blog so far was to challenge the disinformation being spread about Pakistanis and Muslims.

You’re doing a great job as an arbitrator/facilitator. You’re being neutral (to the best of your abilities) and thats what matters most. I offer you one simple advice, STAY NEUTRAL i.e. do not yield to the temptation of answering from the Pakistani side (as you did once before). That will simply undermine your wonderful effort. Let Umair, Pakistani or Shakir do the answering. I’ll pitch in when needed.

Good job buddy, keep it up.

Salaam

Posted by Shuqaib.Bhutto | Report as abusive
 

Umair’s rants still reflect the contempt many Pakistanis have towards India. Somehow they have grown up with the belief that India is weak. The military he supports is full of that attitude. That is the reason why it has made several attempts at India like the coyote in the Road runner cartoon and fallen hard each time. Mr. Umair does not seem to have a handle on how infrastructure is built and how vital it is to build an economy out of it. He seems to believe that it a simple switch to turn on and overnight Pakistan will become an economic power house. Foreign investment is vital and no one in their right minds would go into Pakistan to set up business or invest money there. With the coffers being empty, Pakistan has been surviving on foreign aid.

To make Pakistan an economic power house, it will take at least two decades of sustained effort, peace and infrastructure building. For the past 60 odd years this has not been possible. One needs a stable government, rights, educational and energy infrastructure. Pakistan has none of that. The goal is lofty but the state is empty.

Digging grave to trap India from all sides will only lead to Pakistan falling hard into it. It is amazing that people like Umair have not realized the fact that their country is suffering from suicide attacks and fundamentalism because of trying to dig India’s grave in the past. And I will not be surprised if the military he admires so much, still has the same pea-brained approach.

It is the sign of decline. I feel really sorry for people like Umair. They will have to end up watching the disintegration of their nation in front of their own eyes. The fire that is burning in their country cannot be quelled. Trying to divert it towards India will not work this time. Pakistan’s major supporter, the US will not be backing them this time. China cannot be trusted. They are best known for back stabbing. China only looks at what it can gain and if it sees a chaotic Pakistan, it might abandon its friendship with it. After all it is money that will go down the drain. Instead if it sets up business ties with India and makes money out of it, it may not show much interest in Pakistan. So do not count on them much. Good luck!

Posted by KPSingh01 | Report as abusive
 

@”What is the difference between Pakistan’s support of Kashmiri separatists and India’s support of Mukhti Bahini in Bangladesh or Pushtun nationalists in NWFP or Balochi nationalists in Baluchistan?”
Posted by saif_1980

Mukti Bahini was an indigenous bengali rebellion outfit & India did not start supporting it untill Pakistani Army’s ‘operation searchlight’ was well under way, resulting in genocide & rapes of millions of bengalis. India had no choice but to step up it’s support of Mukti Bahini since it faced an alarming & disasterous scenario of millions of bengali refugees strorming into West Bengal. Any country in that situation, would’ve done exactly, what India did.

In case of Kashmir, there was no meaningful rebellion or agitation, to speak of. Some political grievences, maybe but that’s quite common in developing nations. But nothing unmanagable. Kashmir, by & large, was peaceful until 1989, when Pakistan started it’s proxy war & infiltrated thousands of Mujahadeen into J&K. The Pakistani army created, funded & trained punjabi terrorist groups like LeT & JeM to infiltrate into J&K and fight the Indian forces. From thereon, the conflict grew & the rest is known to all. So, while East Pakistan burned irrespective of India, the fire in Kashmir was started & fueled by Paskistan. That’s the difference between East Pakistan in 1971 & Kashmir in 1989.

As for India’s support of insurgencies in Baluchistan & NWFP, there is absolutely no credible evidence to support this claim. If you can cite me some credible non-Pakistani sources which verify this claim, please provide them.

Posted by Mortal1 | Report as abusive
 

saif_1980:

@What is the difference between Pakistan’s support of Kashmiri separatists and India’s support of Mukhti Bahini in Bangladesh or Pushtun nationalists in NWFP or Balochi nationalists in Baluchistan?”

—-What is the difference between India’s stance that Kashmir is integral part of India and Pakistan’s pre-condition for Azad Kashmir politics that selects only the politicians which say Kashmir will become part of Pakistan? Those which ask for independence and self-determination are disallowed.

—My ansr to the Qn is that India’s “moral support” to those groups has been for short time. How long were Mukiti Bahini supported? Months? Pakistan presented the opportunity (reference: Pak Ex-Air Chief Asghar Ali Khan). Also India did not use its citizens to cross the border and fight. It sure was opportunistic (but do not forget the backdrop of 1965 wars (at a time when India lost 1962 war) waged by Pakistan meant to take away the remaining portion of Kashmir). That makes me ask this: Was it fair for India to silently watch genocide next door?

India has also given “moral support” to Abdul Gaffar Khan’s Pushtoon movement and Baluchistan. RAW wings active in Pakistan were officially shut down by ex-PM IK Gujral (PM directly controls RAW) on moral grounds. That wing was also there coinciding with pakistan’s support to Sikh militancy in Punjab and was shut down in early or mid 90s when Sikh militancy was controlled.

As a common man, I would be unhappy if India was borrowing billions and pouring them into maintaining terrorists for decades to kill Pakistanis when Indians need those billions.

Last but not least, I would say that India-Pak reminds me of a fight between 2 persons or 2 groups. But once the fight is over and there are 2 options to keep the grudge and keep on killing for generations or more mature is to not fight anymore. This can be forced at individual level, but the eqaution is not so conducive at the level of nations where there are too many factors to promote the fight than to stop it—call it geopolitics, startegic depth, arms Industry or the history.

Posted by RajeevK | Report as abusive
 

Its interesting to read some rants here – deny India this, deny India that, cut off supply lines, we are nuclear etc etc shows how some people have now completely lost it. This ‘me Tarzan’ bravado and empty chest thumping is getting boring.

Umair, you seem to be under the impression India is dying to make up with Pakistan no matter what you do. You couldn’t be more wrong. If Pakistan also feel similarly, then it is perfectly ok with us. Why were you so insistent about starting talks anyway? We told you for almost a year and a half, we didn’t want to talk till we saw results.

Posted by DaraIndia | Report as abusive
 

@Mr KP Singh01 &others
Umair is not ranting, but simply expressing the human side of the drama. In my view he has a clean conscious and almost believed in the diplomatic process to resolve conflicts. He has less experience and overlooked the history of the conflict. I am sure he did not mean what he said about the counter actions by Pakistan Govt. We all know that this not the final chapter of history we are witnessing. Let India make more economic gains and become more vulnerable so that its borders are more porus. It was the Brits inroads into the Pashtoon territory which was one of the reason which brought about their exit from the sub-continent. Indian leaders should be treated by Pakistan leaders as outsiders for this is the role they adopted for themselves.
Rex Minor

Posted by pakistan | Report as abusive
 

I note that many from the suffron brigade have joined in the debate. Let us not mix words and wait for the next stage. Afghanistan Govt. is going to include the Taliban Pashtoons as soon as the foreigners leave their territory. This will complete the axis of muslim states from Turkey to Iran and Afghanistan. Pakistan has the choice to join them or stay alone moaning about what the Indians are doing to them. This is going to occur before India becomes a Nation and improves its standing in the world.
Rex Minor
PS those of you who write so much about the economic power of India should atleast tell the Indian Faqir not to accept the development aid from the west. My few euros are still feeding the poors in India, not to forget the employment of poor unskilled workers in the Gulf states who are living in worst conditions than those living in India. The least Indian PM can do is to visit them and see their living conditions, is this not what a democratzically elected leader does. Those who talk of respect should also know that the new administration did not even let the Indian PM in the white house and instead letthe party enjoy open air in Gadafi designed tents!

Posted by pakistan | Report as abusive
 

I am curious about India being considered an ‘existential threat’ to Pakistan, especially when smaller countries like Bangladesh, Sri Lanka and Nepal do not use this term. I would really like to understand what this means.

Does it mean that:

1. India will swallow Pakistan up into a single political entity in future

2. India may not dissolve Pakistan’s existence as a separate political entity but will forge an economic regime in South Asia where Pakistan’s destiny will no longer be controlled by Pakistanis but by Indian money

3. India will culturally swamp Pakistan and cause it to lose its sense of identity

or something else?

I’m not dismissing this notion out of hand although it seems a strange concept to me. George Friedman of Stratfor (Strategic Forecasting) says much the same thing, i.e., that Indian power tends to extend outwards in all directions until it reaches natural boundaries, which means that Pakistan will also be overwhelmed. But it’s something I don’t comprehend. What form will it take? More importantly, what exactly do our Pakistani friends fear will happen? We should bring this issue out into the open and discuss it.

Regards,
Ganesh Prasad

Posted by prasadgc | Report as abusive
 

The difference between Bangladesh and Kashmir:

In the case of both Bangladesh and Kashmir, it was years of misrule by its rulers which caused a political uprising. In both cases the uprising was indigenous and peaceful while the response of the rulers was harsh and uncompromising. In both cases, it was the response, combined with the H.R violations by the security forces which gave birth to local militancy which was later aided by another power.

The fundamental difference between Bangladesh and Kashmir is that the former was a sovereign territory of Pakistan while the latter is as yet a disputed territory.

Similarily, Baluchistan and Pakhtunkhwa are sovereign territories of Pakistan, where an outside power has been busy exploiting the separatist sentiments of certain tribes.

Posted by Shuqaib.Bhutto | Report as abusive
 

Posing to be victim has been the primary pillar on which pak aggression thrives. It is also interesting to note they like to have it both ways. On the hand, they crowed after successfully launching Mumbai terrorist attack, India is toothless, we do only empty bravado.
OTOH, they would like to claim they are “afraid” of india!! The later to milk more aid and military gadgets.

Posted by Seekeroftruth | Report as abusive
 

Lashkar-e-Taiba, and Jaish-E-Mohammed are Punjabi organizations, both leadership and cadre. Not Kashmiri.

They have been inolved in hijacking Indian Airlines plane, attacking Indian parliament, bomb blasts in trains, bazzars, and temples, Mumbai train blasts in 2006, and Mumbai mayhem of 2008. All funded, logistically supported by ISI, and political back up given by Pakistani govt.

Mukti Bahimi were Bengali. Were they involved in any thing like above?

Were Mukti Bahini involved

Posted by Seekeroftruth | Report as abusive
 

“In the case of both Bangladesh and Kashmir, it was years of misrule by its rulers which caused a political uprising”

—> Utter Pakistani BS. I have relatives who have lived in Sri Nagar since the 50′s & it’s a fact that there was hardly any conflict in kashmir until 1989/90, when Pakistan began it’s terrorism agenda in the valley. Ground reality is quite different from the propaganda taught to you by your establishment.

“Similarily, Baluchistan and Pakhtunkhwa are sovereign territories of Pakistan, where an outside power has been busy exploiting the separatist sentiments of certain tribes”

—-> More BS. Have any proof? No, then disappear!

Posted by fitty_cent | Report as abusive
 

“The fundamental difference between Bangladesh and Kashmir is that the former was a sovereign territory of Pakistan while the latter is as yet a disputed territory.”

If it is a dispute doesn’t mean Pakistan’s stand is the one that is correct. Kashmir, in every legal sense, is a part of India whether you agree or not. I can dispute anything with anyone, does that mean I am in the right? Go through the historical sequence, go through the terms of reference of the Radcliffe Commisiion, go through the United Nations debates – Kashmir is legally a part of India. The reason why the UN resolution spoke of Pakistani troops vacating ALL portions of kashmir while India was permitted to maintain a force to maintain law and prder was because it was accepted that legally Kashmir is part of the Indian Union.

You lost Bangladesh because of the greed of your politicians and the stupidity of Yahya. You are trying to create trouble in Kashmir as revenge for Bangladesh. Keep trying.

Posted by DaraIndia | Report as abusive
 

If one sees the blogs on India-Pakistan for the past two years on this forum as well others, a trend can be observed. It is a cyclical trend that hops from one issue to another. The issues are generally – Kashmir, Plebiscite, UN resolutions, Junagadh, Hyderabad, Mumbai attacks, Samjauta Express, Shiv Sena, BJP, RSS, Gujerat riots, Narendra Modi, Kargil, Back channel diplomacy, India’s thousand consulates in Afghanistan, Madrasas in Pakistan, RAW, Balochistan, India’s choke hold on rivers and violation of Indus water treaty, nukes, LeT, Taliban, ISI, Pak military, India’s democracy, poverty, Bangladesh, Kashmir, Plebiscite, UN resolutions, Mumbai attacks, Samjauta express and so on.

Generally when one issue is being addressed, invariably an existing or a new Pakistani poster would trigger a drift into one of the other issues and things will snowball in that direction. Indians would come out with references (the same ones and some new ones) and Pakistanis will go silent. After a while, it would be the same claims and counter claims.

Interestingly I see the same trend in Pakistani media and government circles. They all parrot the same thing by shifting from one issue to another when cornered on one. The current Kashmir issue being raised by Pakistan and its citizens has superceded India’s presence in Afghanistan, RAW support to TTP, Balochistan, alleged Indus water treaty violation etc. Soon Kashmir issue will die down and Pakistan will be cornered with some militant being caught with bombs up his rear end and coming from Pakistan. Immediately Pakistan will switch to another issue with India.

This is called dodging and ducking without doing anything. Pakistanis cry wold over Indian army’s human rights violations in Kashmir. When I gave a reference to a BBC article that describes Pak army’s free hand in Swat, I did not see a single response from anyone. Here is the reference again:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-south-as ia-10667545

As soon as I posted it, I saw a differnt issue raised by the Pakistani posters here and they took the discussion away immediately. I see Pak diplomats do the same thing.

Why this double standard? I do not deny that Indian security system follows brutal methods. Why are Pakistanis turning a blind eye to what their military has been doing in South Waziristan, Balochistan etc while they accuse India of the same? Why is the pot calling the kettle black? Pak military can never wash its hands off the blood from East Pakistan. Isn’t it obvious that crocodile tears are being shed about Kashmir in order to score a point? Where is the real feeling?

Be fair in your attitude first before you expect anything from India. You cannot accuse India with allegations while brutally treating your own citizens. ‘

Adding more salt to the wound are authors like Myra who never write anything about the wrong doings of Pakistani military or governments. I am yet to see one article that highlights how things are suppressed in Azad Kashmir or how “militants” are “successfully” being killed by Pak army in South Waziristan or Swat. It resembes Switzerland if I remember correctly.

We are not going to allow Pakistan to get away with its wrong doings. We will campaign hard even if they have the sympathy and connivance from cold war residue left in the Western world.

Posted by KPSingh01 | Report as abusive
 

@KPSingh,

Your write in a very neat and cohesive manner. I’m a fan!

Re: Pakistanis dodging tough questions – Very correct observation! Some new posters start as objective and then as the thread progresses, they get caught between implications of staying honest and benefits of diverting discussion with their jingoism. I do not believe that these people are so naive that they can’t see error in their ways, they just don’t want to. The latest example in this regard is Rex Minor, who has no answer to why he used the term “your ancestors” in context of tackling Pashtun invaders. He is so ashamed of his own ancestral identity that he will neither admit being on the side of oppressed nor the oppressors but yet feels he has a say in the matter.

All in all, their behavior is not going to change in any short term. But one thing that gives me assurance is the shorter “lifespan” of these posters. They post actively for few weeks and when all of their baseless claims have been refuted with facts and reliable information, they get frustrated with themselves and go AWOL.

Moral of the story, Satyamev Jayate (Truth alone triumphs)!

Posted by Seth | Report as abusive
 

@ ‘Gangsta wannabe’ Troll

” I have relatives who have lived in Sri Nagar since the 50’s & it’s a fact that there was hardly any conflict in kashmir until 1989/90, when Pakistan began it’s terrorism agenda in the valley…….
….More BS. Have any proof? No, then disappear!”

1) Can you show me any proof that these people you refer to actually ARE your relatives? No. Then disappear!

2) Can you show any proof that they actually lived in Srinagar. No. Then disappear!

3) Besides the BS allegations that are tossed around as ‘proof’, do you have any court worthy proof of Pakistan’s ‘terrorism agenda’ in the valley. No. Then disappear!

4) Do you have any proof that you really are your father’s child? No. I wonder what that makes you. You better disappear…’my son’ ;)

Posted by Shuqaib.Bhutto | Report as abusive
 

This must scare the Pak military. Israel has developed a workable missile defense system. It won’t be long before India gets it from Israel.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/con tent/article/2010/07/19/AR2010071903171. html?hpid=sec-world

Posted by KPSingh01 | Report as abusive
 

@KPSigh01
You really have a strange sense of humour or did you genuinely not read the whole article. The so called invention is to protect Israel against the home made rockets of Palestinians in Gaza. Do you believe that Indian military has a similar problem from Pakistan home made missiles. You can defend yourself with a wooden board against the Palestinians home made rockets!!
Rex Minor

Posted by pakistan | Report as abusive
 

Rex Minor:

The article mentions about protection from missiles launched from Iran. They are not something one can defend using card boards. Go back and read again.

The last line in the article says:

“The joint Israel-U.S. system is designed to give protection against missiles that could be fired at Israel from Iran.”

And they downplay things just so that their enemies do not get excited and start their own reaction. Israelis are very smart people. India will surely need those defense systems and has the money to get the technology. India is already working on one. But why reinvent the wheel? So in the near future, we will be able to get on with our lives without having to worry about Shaheen or Gauri missiles.

Posted by KPSingh01 | Report as abusive
 

Clever retort FAIL!!! Better luck next time ‘my son’ ;)

Posted by Shuqaib.Bhutto | Report as abusive
 

Hey Shaquib Bhutto and fifty_cent,

Why don’t you guys keep the trash off this forum? Maintain some level of decency. We don’t need to know your respective pedigrees here.

Posted by KPSingh01 | Report as abusive
 

Here is another one about the land of milk and honey:

http://www.dawn.com/wps/wcm/connect/dawn -content-library/dawn/news/pakistan/two- brothers-killed-for-alleged-blasphemy-jd -01

It is in their own newspaper. Minorities are getting slaughtered in Pakistan. And they are fighting a jihad for Kashmiris!

Posted by KPSingh01 | Report as abusive
 

re: missile defense system

Now Pakistanis will start begging uncle Sam to buy them the latest toy next time he takes them for a stroll. Or else, they won’t finish the milk.

Posted by Seth | Report as abusive
 

Adding more salt to the wound are authors like Myra who never write anything about the wrong doings of Pakistani military or governments.

==

We don’t have to feel that way. But, IMHO, under the title “Pakistan- Now or Never”, the primary theme of this blog is to explain, justify Pakistani aggression against India.

Look at the CIA guy! These are the same guys who sent the 8th fleet to intimidate India when Pakistan army was butchering the Bengalis in 1971. “Champions of freedom and liberty”!

Westerners have propped up Pakistan for 63 years and before, look what they’ve got.

Posted by Seekeroftruth | Report as abusive
 

Umair,

I admire your wishful thiniking, about Pakistan challenging India on various fronts. The basic difference between India and Pakistan is : India makes the cheapest cars and Pakistan breeds chepaest terrorists.

Posted by manishindia | Report as abusive
 

@paks,

For those of you hoping to keep terrorism alive as a business model against India and the U.S. taxpayers and those of you military Paks who do not want peace with India, you should know that in the future you are going to become more and more irrelevant.

It is best you war monger Paks move to Somalia.

Posted by G-W | Report as abusive
 

@KPSingh01
And you believe in the article of an israeli journalist in the zionist newspaper. I do not. I thought that with your knowledge of history you are a bit more selective than relying on the last paragraph including Iran’s name in the equation. Have you not heard of the American Patriot Missile defence system, and have you not heard of the advanced missile defence system of the USA to include Poland bases to defend against Iranian rockets. Come on, do not over estimate the capability of Israeli engineers, the advanced technologies emanate from the USA, Israel is simply the retail shop for indirect sales to selected countries such as India and Turkey for certain material not authorised for general sale. Now do not ask for the source of this info? A simple analysis could give you the same conclusion. You do not need advanced maths for this.
Rex Minor

PS. The article is an attempt to delude the readers of the risk to Israel from Hamas in Gaza and Hisbullah from Lebanon. This comes out when the European Union condemns Israel embargo against Gaza and the death of Turkish citizens by the Israel special forces.

Posted by pakistan | Report as abusive
 

@G.W
Well said, but sorry I do not mean to be rude, it is India which is becoming irrelevant. The resistance against the occupation is becoming more relevant each day, and you see the effort of the entire world community is to win the hearts and minds of the people, lest they jon hands with the resistance movements throughout the muslim countries.Special funds are being allocaterd to pay to the so called Taliban terrorists and millions of dollars are being allocated for Pakistan, including Hillary’s promise to import sweeter Pakistani mangoes into the USA. This is all a scenario of a soft defeat for the neo conservative think tank clowns( the four star General’s words not mine)of the USA administration.

Rex Minor
PS Somalia is a lost territory, out of bounds for journalists.

Posted by pakistan | Report as abusive
 

@KPSingh01
What is your intent for providing references to news paper articles, I thought this is the function of Myra Mcdonald to post the article on this blog and open for comments? Have you ever had the time to read some of the news and commentries of the Indian journalists and the Indian newspapers. I did. As a matter of fact I was even interested to purchase a peace of land for sale near the Himalays to build a house for retirement. Well, it was attractive peace but at the same time I read a news headline in the local newspaper of an armed robbery by Sikhs of a highway petrol station. Well, this was the end of my little project. If you take the crime references and the mistreat of minorities as well as the tragic stories of the sufferings of poor Indian public, published in the Indian news papers, you would need several months to provide the references of a single day occurances on this blog. My question is what are you trying to prove. Do not tell me that the land of honey is in the crime stricken Arizona or the sweet broadfway city of new york or even the hollywood city of los angeles, not to forget detroit or frisko, city; the weekend scene in the hospital emergency area, when patients with bullet wounds are delivered. Do you think we are living on the moon. Perhaps you should compare the crime rate of several countries to tell us who are the worst one. Well I will give you a surprise the USA prisons have more foreigners in the Prison than the american citizens. We must all condemn violence and particularly at the state level and that of the military or the Jawans as some of your compatriot calls them,being let loose on civilians.
Rex Minor

Posted by pakistan | Report as abusive
 

Rex Minor: “And you believe in the article of an israeli journalist in the zionist newspaper. I do not.”

The reference I quoted is in Washington Post. I wonder where you got the information of that being a Zionist, Israeli newspaper.

“I thought that with your knowledge of history you are a bit more selective than relying on the last paragraph including Iran’s name in the equation.”

Iran is a big factor for Israel, much like Pakistan is for India. As soon as Iran gets its nuke weapons, it is going to close its eyes and launch a nuclear bomb using its missile towards Israel. So Israel is preparing itself for that eventual situation. Jews are human too. And they have every right to defend themselves. India has a similar adversary right next door. So if Israel can test out a system that works, there is nothing wrong in India seeking the same system or technology to defend its territories. I don’t understand what is upsetting you here so much.

“Have you not heard of the American Patriot Missile defence system, and have you not heard of the advanced missile defence system of the USA to include Poland bases to defend against Iranian rockets.”

I have heard of all that. The problem is the US controls that system. India has none and is vulnerable. It is always good to have alternatives. Both Israel and India are surrounded by hostile neighbors. Both have fought wars to defend themselves. We have nothing against the Jews or Muslims. We only deal with nations and militant organizations. In that regard, we have a common front.

“Come on, do not over estimate the capability of Israeli engineers, the advanced technologies emanate from the USA, Israel is simply the retail shop for indirect sales to selected countries such as India and Turkey for certain material not authorised for general sale.”

Israel is in a much worse environment than India is. It is surrounded by Arab states which have no regrets about exterminating them and they have defended themselves very well despite the odds of being a small country. US backing is always there, but Israelis use their brains much better than others.

BTW, for your holy war against the Soviets, Israel worked with Egypt on making Russian weapons under US insistence. It was a very odd combination. Israeli made Russian weapons from Egypt found their way to Karachi and were moved up into Afghanistan to fight the Soviets. No Pakistani raised any alarm at that time about having to work with Zionists. Everything is a matter of convinience right?

“Now do not ask for the source of this info? A simple analysis could give you the same conclusion. You do not need advanced maths for this.”

Your analysis is skewed and warped by emotions. That’s all. We do not know how many Umairs are in Pakistan and how many of them are in the military/ISI cartel. They are the real villains. We are concerned about their clouded minds and have to be prepared at all times.

Posted by KPSingh01 | Report as abusive
 

Rex Minor: “What is your intent for providing references to news paper articles, I thought this is the function of Myra Mcdonald to post the article on this blog and open for comments?”

Where does it say no one should provide references? What if Myra is wrong? I have not seen much balance in her projected views. Neutrality is absent. Therefore we need to make up for it. My reference to “Nuclear Deception” was one of them.

“Have you ever had the time to read some of the news and commentries of the Indian journalists and the Indian newspapers. I did.”

So what exactly is your point? What newspapers did you read? There are thousands of them in India. And they vary from one extreme to another as far as journalism is concerned.

“As a matter of fact I was even interested to purchase a peace of land for sale near the Himalays to build a house for retirement. Well, it was attractive peace but at the same time I read a news headline in the local newspaper of an armed robbery by Sikhs of a highway petrol station. Well, this was the end of my little project.”

I guess you are living somewhere in the West. Based on your logic above, if you get mugged on the street one day, you will leave the country and get back to the land of milk and honey. There is plenty of room for retired people in Swat, Mingora, NWFP, South Waziristan etc. Retired people are having a wonderful time there. Myra even mentioned that it resembled Switzerland and she had more fear in the Indian side of Kashmir. Do ask her and she might give you some nice real estate in those lands where there is nature in its absolute serenity. You can hear the sound of the drones, sunrise accompanied with explosions, screams of women and boys getting raped, evening entertainment where people are stoned to death or have their ligaments cut. What a bargain? Go for it. India is a terrorist nation. Peace lovers like you cannot even go in there.

“If you take the crime references and the mistreat of minorities as well as the tragic stories of the sufferings of poor Indian public, published in the Indian news papers, you would need several months to provide the references of a single day occurances on this blog.”

India unfortunately is not the world’s most developed nation like your Pakistan where no one pays taxes, everything is up for grabs, guns are free, life is colorful with real explosions, hunting parties where Shias and Ahmadis get killed, wow! Can anything top that?

“My question is what are you trying to prove.”

I have the same question for you as well. I see absolutely no sense in your writings. I saw Umair’s grand warning when the diplomatic efforts did not take off well. So I had to bring in something that will reassure my countrymen. You have any problems with that?

“Do not tell me that the land of honey is in the crime stricken Arizona or the sweet broadfway city of new york or even the hollywood city of los angeles, not to forget detroit or frisko, city; the weekend scene in the hospital emergency area, when patients with bullet wounds are delivered. Do you think we are living on the moon. Perhaps you should compare the crime rate of several countries to tell us who are the worst one. Well I will give you a surprise the USA prisons have more foreigners in the Prison than the american citizens. We must all condemn violence and particularly at the state level and that of the military or the Jawans as some of your compatriot calls them,being let loose on civilians.”

What does crime in the US have to do with this discussion? India is not letting military loose on civilians. If people are rioting, pelting stones and are allowing militants to mix in, military has every reason to be there to control the situation. Isn’t it what Pak military is doing in Waziristan? Innocent civilians have been killed there too. Do you want reference? I can provide it for you.

Everything is not golden with Pakistan. The very fact that no effort has been made since its inception to build a nation tells very clearly what went wrong. On top of that, Pakistan has chosen the path of destruction as a means to achieve its goal of power and dominance. Blinded by arrogance and emotions, Pakistani establishment has brought the country to the brink. And its citizens are blaming India, Israel, US etc. That is the point.

Posted by KPSingh01 | Report as abusive
 

@Rex Minor: “What is your intent for providing references to news paper articles, I thought this is the function of Myra Mcdonald to post the article on this blog and open for comments?”

—Have some sense. Any blogger will welcome a related article. Myra very clearly mentioned in the past to post the related articles and she has commented on them.

Buddy, keep your wings tucked.

Posted by RajeevK | Report as abusive
 

KPSingh:

I like your writing and admire your contribution.

I have one suggestion: RexMinor says he is not a Pakistani, so let us take that at face value. It is best to tackle his points without comparing with Pakistan unless there is need. Who knows what wandering creature this RexMinor is and what purpose he has on here.

Posted by RajeevK | Report as abusive
 

@RexMinor/Pakistan,

I hope that you Pakistani’s realize that the Punjabi’s are going to pocket the American cash.

Easy come, easy go. I have faith that one day Pakistani’s will learn what it is like to earn money by working for it, rather than begging and getting free cash.

For now, enjoy the political perceptions that Hillary made for you. It won’t be too long before Islamabad burns through the cash and politicians pocket it and Pakistan’s terrorism budget is refilled to kill Indians.

The rest of the 99% Pakistani’s can keep selling samosa and kebabs on the streets.

No loan money to Pakistan has ever come to fruition. The poor will continue to be poor, illiteracy will continue, lack of energy will remain and terrorism will continue agains the NATO mission and Indians.

All we can say is, “thanks for coming out Hillary”….

Posted by G-W | Report as abusive
 

RajeevK: “RexMinor says he is not a Pakistani, so let us take that at face value. It is best to tackle his points without comparing with Pakistan unless there is need. Who knows what wandering creature this RexMinor is and what purpose he has on here.”

But right under his name I see “Pakistan.” He is probably an immigrant from Pakistan. He cannot let go of his allegiance to his home country. This is a public forum. If people throw stones at others, they should expect to get pelted in return.

Posted by KPSingh01 | Report as abusive
 

My two cents:

Possibility one, Rex Minor is a second/third generation of Pakistani immigrant at least. But he will get offended if somebody in Germany called him Pakistani. He is here because he cannot see a Muslim nation getting thrashed left, right and center and of course a foreign power must be behind it. He hates Pakistani establishment and leaders equally not because he has any patriotism for his ex-”nation” per se, he is angry at them for bringing a Muslim nation down. All those fables read to him in madarassa combined with the generalized Indo-Pak bed-time stories from grandpa and uncles are coming to fruition in the form of present day Minor.

Second possibility is pretty straightforward, Pakistan is the arena that promises real action for the aspirants for e-jihadists.

Posted by Seth | Report as abusive
 

But the better question for the day is, where is Saif_1980? I’d love to read more from the guy with the genuine outlook. Or was it another ID wasted by the threeface?

Posted by Seth | Report as abusive
 

@”But right under his name I see “Pakistan.” He is probably an immigrant from Pakistan. He cannot let go of his allegiance to his home country”
Posted by KPSingh01

He’s a li’l whacko & I think he made his user ID as “Pakistan” in error & is stuck with it. IMO, he’s a Pashtun living in Europe, probably Germany. Anyways, he seems to be living in a self-conceived alternate reality & I don’t think his comments should be taken seriously by anyone. I, for one enjoy & appreciate the comedic value in them.

Posted by Mortal1 | Report as abusive
 

> I think he made his user ID as “Pakistan” in error & is stuck with it.

He probably doesn’t know it’s a simple matter of clearing his browser cookies for the Reuters site and signing up afresh under another name :-).

Regards,
Ganesh Prasad

Posted by prasadgc | Report as abusive
 

@prasadgc

Now you don’t be putting ideas in his head. One guy, suffering from severe multiple personality crisis is enough for this place :)

Posted by Mortal1 | Report as abusive
 

@Indian Crowd
Now you guys are unkind. First of all you raise a question and when the reply comes, you want to make fun of the reply. You guys are too clever with a set mind and have no longer the ability to expand your understanding of other’s opinions.
Stay in your world if this keeps you happy.
Rex Minor

Posted by pakistan | Report as abusive
 

ability to expand your understanding of other’s opinions.

==
Says who again?????!!

that’s even funnier than his previous minor posts.

Posted by Seekeroftruth | Report as abusive
 

Mr. Minor,

I have a question for you. Out of sheer curiosity, I just googled your name & discovered your comments (under the same ID) to be floating around the web in about half a dozen Pakistani blogs (Pakistan policy blog, Pakistan teahouse, Pakistan defence forum etc). As someone, who claims that he’s not Pakistani & has no links to the region, why are you so very interested in Pakistan?

Posted by Mortal1 | Report as abusive
 

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