India and Pakistan, living up to low expectations

July 17, 2010

qureshikrishnaHopes of progress were low when the foreign ministers of India and Pakistan met in Islamabad last week and the two sides lived up to expectations, disagreeing on how to move their relationship forward and blaming each other for souring the mood. 

Pakistan took exception to the timing of remarks by the Indian Home Secretary on the eve of the talks accusing the Inter-Services Intelligence (ISI) agency of involvement in the November 2008 attack on Mumbai.  India objected to comments made by Pakistan Foreign Minister Shah Mehmood Qureshi comparing those remarks to anti-India speeches given by Hafez Saeed, the founder of the Lashkar-e-Taiba militant group blamed for Mumbai.  Qureshi complained his counterpart repeatedly took instructions from Delhi during their talks, an accusation that Indian External Affairs Minister S.M. Krishna denied.

Signs are, however, that the mood is steadying and the two countries are trying to put the acrimony behind them.

Pakistan Prime Minister Yusuf Raza Gilani said Pakistan wanted good relations with India and both sides were sincere in improving ties. Indian Foreign Secretary Nirupama Rao, the country’s top diplomat, also stressed in interviews with television channel NDTV and with CNN-IBN that the process of dialogue must continue.  “I think in diplomacy, as in life, disappointments such as these needs to be surmounted, because as neighbours India and Pakistan will have to deal with each other,” she said. “We don’t have the luxury of maintaining irresolvable distances between our two countries.”

In an editorial, The Hindu newspaper argued not only that dialogue must continue, but that India and Pakistan must learn the lessons of the Islamabad talks by encouraging officials of both countries to be more restrained in their public comments. Indian Home Secretary G.K. Pillai, it said, should have known better than to air in public India’s allegation about ISI involvement in Mumbai on the eve of the foreign ministers’ talks, an allegation which was not particularly new and which had already been conveyed to Islamabad.  ”Its public airing at a sensitive moment raises troubling questions about the motives for doing so, and about who really runs this government,” it said. ”The Pakistan Foreign Minister too has been unnecessarily aggressive in his posturing towards India, perhaps out of domestic political compulsions.”

Those comments found an unlikely echo in the person of Hamid Gul, former head of the ISI, who said the remarks from both Pillai and Qureshi were unnecessary.  “I think we need to douse the fires of aggression,” he said.

Pakistan’s Dawn newspaper said in an editorial that the acrimony over the Islamabad talks could actually indicate that Pakistan and India were making a sincere effort to engage with each other - although it also did not rule out the possibility that hawks on both sides of the border were out to sabotage the process.

“The more optimistic interpretation is that India and Pakistan are warily re-engaging one another, the diplomatic hiccups the result of a nascent but real process of rebuilding trust and confidence in a relationship poisoned by mutual distrust,” it said. ”For a dispute that is over six decades old, a few months …  is a mere blink of an eye. The optimists suggest that the excruciatingly slow pace of re-engagement isn’t indicative of problems but a way of building a solid base for the next phase of the peace dialogue between the two countries. Rational and sensible people on both sides of the border will be hoping that it is the optimistic hypothesis which is true.”

Qureshi and Krishna will have another chance to meet on the sidelines of an international conference on Afghanistan in Kabul next week. Prime Minister Manmohan Singh and Gilani – who are the ones who are really driving the dialogue process - could also have an opportunity to talk on the sidelines of the United Nations General Assembly in New York in September. Qureshi has also been invited to visit India, although no dates have been set.

It will be a long slow process - and one that is always vulnerable to another major militant attack. And as yet, the nature of that re-engagement has yet to really take form.  On the surface, the most obvious disagreement is over what should be discussed – India wants action on what it calls cross-border terrorism; Pakistan wants all issues discussed, including what it sees as the core issue of Kashmir.

But the problems run much deeper than that, in what B.Raman, formerly at Indian intelligence agency, the Research & Analysis Wing (R&AW), calls here the “negative reflexes” which have dominated attitudes in both countries since the violent partition of the subcontinent in 1947. (Do read his article for a proposal on how dialogue between the two countries should be structured.)

I would argue they go back even further than 1947, into an asymmetry of thinking between the then-dominant Congress party which wanted an independent, secular and united India, and the Muslim League, which insisted Muslims would neither be safe from Hindu domination nor achieve their political aspirations without a separate homeland.  In other words, Congress favoured the status quo, but with India ruled by Indians rather than the British; the Muslim League favoured radical change.  Congress insisted Muslims would be safe in a secular and united India; the Muslim League said they would be threatened.

Much of that asymmetry in thinking remains visible today.  India wants dialogue to proceed through incremental confidence building measures; Pakistan wants a more radical, all-encompassing peace deal.  When it comes to Kashmir, India favours the status quo; Pakistan wants change and in the past has been prepared to nurture Islamist militant groups – some of which are now turning against Pakistan – to force that change. 

As Robert Grenier, a former CIA station chief in Islamabad argues here,  “The fundamental problem is that the status quo, with India in effective control of most of Jammu and Kashmir, favours India. Thus, a sustained series of so-called confidence building measures which reduces the threat of hostilities has the effect of making the status quo more tolerable for India over time, thus creating a strong disincentive for India to engage in a real negotiation. Correspondingly, in Pakistan, confidence building measures in the absence of progress on the core issues in dispute only make the prospect of Indian concessions on Kashmir all the more unlikely and, thus, a policy focused initially on creating trust all the less sustainable.

“This is especially true where terrorism and militant groups are concerned.  In South Asia, as elsewhere, terrorism is the tool of the weak. Without any other effective means of redressing Indian repression of Muslims in Indian administered Kashmir, a Pakistani focus on cracking down on so called “Kashmiri” militant groups based in Pakistan itself is unlikely to be accepted by the army, and only risks further undermining a Pakistani government already beset with domestic militant threats on all sides.”

The asymmetry is clear even in the language both countries use. India says Kashmir is not disputed; Pakistan says it is. India says it is not a threat to Pakistan; yet Islamabad, and more particularly the generals in Rawalpindi, say it is.  Indian politicians sometimes like to stress that India as a rising world power has more important concerns than focusing on Pakistan, infuriating Pakistanis who see this as another expression of Indian insistence on the status quo and evidence of the perceived arrogance of its much bigger neighbour.

You can’t change the asymmetry in thinking which grew out of an earlier era, in 1930s British India.  But can India and Pakistan at least acknowledge its existence, and in doing so, find a way to transform their faltering dialogue process into a durable peace?

(Update/postscript: Siddharth Varadarajan at The Hindu has a useful readout on why the foreign ministers’ talks failed, blaming this in particular on an inability to agree a timeline for holding talks on Siachen)

93 comments

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Quote ” The fundamental problem is that the status quo, with India in effective control of most of Jammu and Kashmir, favours India. Thus, a sustained series of so-called confidence building measures which reduces the threat of hostilities has the effect of making the status quo more tolerable for India over time, thus creating a strong disincentive for India to engage in a real negotiation. Correspondingly, in Pakistan, confidence building measures in the absence of progress on the core issues in dispute only make the prospect of Indian concessions on Kashmir all the more unlikely and, thus, a policy focused initially on creating trust all the less sustainable” End Quote.

I have never seen anybody summarize the entire problem using such sanitized words and phrases. The guy has said everything worth saying without crossing any diplomatic lines. Sheer brilliance.

Mr Grenier is dead on and the paragraph above pretty much sums it all up. Putting preconditions on the Kashmir dialogue is the surest way of making it fail. Which means that the current dialogue is simply a diplomatic excercise for domestic and foreign consumption. May God save us from our politicians.

Posted by Shuqaib.Bhutto | Report as abusive

Myra, the assymetry in perceptions is easily explained, Pakistani Army inflicted mass propaganda on its people, while India did not, that explains the wide rift in perceptions.

Posted by G-W | Report as abusive

Many diplomats have died who negotiated on behalf these countries before and many are going to leave the stage for the next round and the next round. No one has ever taugght these two countries how to rule and handle their citizens in the territory left by the Brits. In this period both countries have acquired enough nuclear weaponry to destroy their countries and many others in the neighbouring countries. Let them stay apart for as long as they can and have a dialogue with each other to satisfy their people.
The world will remain safer as long as they are occupied with each other. Their domestic developments are sooner than later going to shape their territory eventually.They have not become Nations even after a lapse of sixty years, they are happy with the chaos!!
Rex Minor

Posted by pakistan | Report as abusive

A very nice question you have asked at the end, I understand this was a very strong shock to India and Pakistan’s journey towards peace. They blame India and Indians blame them no one is taking one further step and no one is leaving it’s position. India was insulted their which can not be tolerated but they can do nothing. Only one mre chance can be given to Pakistan. They can’t fight because both of them have got nuclear weapons, they can’t change neighbours obviously.. If peace is what they want then they should accept each others existence. Pakistan should understand the position of India in the world and should make use of its growing neighbour, whose public shares similar interests with its public, to give boost to its economy. India should realize the importance of position of Pakistan which is a gateway to energy rich Iran, gulf, and Central Asia and hence its close ally Russia

With Regards
-Sanskar Shrivastava
http://enewsreport.blogspot.com

Posted by sanskar27 | Report as abusive

India and Pakistan have wasted too much energy on working against each other and blown billions on military hardware.

The only ones profiting from enmity between India and Pakistan are the arms dealers and Arabs.

It is best they both put differences aside and find ways to build consensus.

In Pakistan’s currently polarized and religiously propagandized state, this will be extremely difficult to do, as the Zia Al Haq era has ingrained a poisonous view of Indians in the minds of Pakistani’s upto even today.

Pakistani’s perceptions must be changed somehow. Just merely giving up and abrogating Kashmir is not the answer.

The answer will lie in both sides doing a sustained effort of incremental concessions and tit for tat good actions towards each other.

But let there be no illusions, Pakistan must leave the past behind and get ride of militantism from Kashmir and its soil.

Pakistan and India stand to gain so much from each other in many untold ways, if Pakistan can somehow turn its face away from militantism.

There is no reason why India will not give money for infrastructure for education, give food, technology and what ever aid is needed and above all, a more comprehensive regional water management treaty. If Indians are willing to help Afghans, just imagine the good will Indians are prepared to give Pakistani’s, if they abandon Islamic militantism.

Pakistani’s and Indians can both keep their armys to enforce territory and borders, but both countries can significantly alter the futures of their people for good, if this enmity can be put to the grave. Unfortunately, there are too many outside forces and forces within Pakistan that are working hand in claw to maintain a “containment” or assymetrical warfare against India and this has been extremely counterproductive.

Indians do want a friendly neighbour, a prosperous neighbour. But there are extremist elements in Pakistan that keep sabotaging any chance of sustainable peace. It is a pity that these extremist elements are given so much wiggle room in Pakistan to operate for their own objectives.

If Pakistani’s don’t trust Indians, why not have the UN monitor both sides activities, to ensure that they are both giving peace and equal and sincerely truthful chance?

I think Indians would welcome that. We got nothing to hide.

Posted by G-W | Report as abusive

Further to my previous comment, in Manmohan’ Singh’s own words, “We are willing to meet Pakistan more than half way….if they abandon terrorism as a foreign policy tool”.

So, this peace really is upto Pakistani’s because Indians cannot negotitate or really discuss anything, as long the terrorism virus continues to stew and grow in Pakistan, for Indians are leaving themselves vulnverable and open to opportunistic elements hoping to wreak havoc.

Someone in the Pakistani establishment does not want peace with India.

We Indians have the patience, you Pakistani’s decide and look into your hearts and demand that your leaders to make peace with India.

It is a 1000% assurance that if Militantism is removed from Pakistan, there is no reason why Indo-Pak can even exceed the growth by China. There is a huge potential for both countries to become very successful together, if they choose to work as close neighbours and fix all enmity.

Posted by G-W | Report as abusive

Who appointed the CIA chief the arbitrator here? If he says something favorable to paks he becomes an arbitrator?

The same CIA who printed text books advocating Jihad and supplied to Afghans in the 80s?

I could quote some other American diplomats and experts who advocate liberating Pashtunistan and Blochistan as solutions for the problems in Af-Pak. What say you?

Posted by Seekeroftruth | Report as abusive

The author writes “Muslim League, which insisted Muslims would neither be safe from Hindu domination nor achieve their political aspirations without a separate homeland”


That is a lie!

Read here:

http://www.kashmir-information.com/histo ry/bittertruth.html

The same way westerners like you support a religious exclusivist, terrorist state against a multi-ethnic, multi religious India, your forefathers the British were conniving with Muslim Leagur to balkanize India.

Muslim League’s original demand for Pakistan included

1) the entire Punjab, Bengal provinces ALONG WITH THE HINDU POPULATION (!!!)
2)ASSAM (!!!)
3)Princely states scattered across India with muslim rulers and Hindu majority populations.

Where is the idea of muslim oppression when Muslims were the rulers for 100s of years?!!

If you don’t beleive me read Indian Muslim Historian Rafiq Zakaria’s book on Jinnah. You can google search and read sections for free.

Posted by Seekeroftruth | Report as abusive

A lot can happen if outside powers stop meddling in the region. It is the geo-politics played by the US, its allies, USSR and China that have led to the current day stalemate between India and Pakistan. The US has been highly influential in the region and has helped Pakistan survive and turn in the wrong direction by encouraging its military to achieve its objectives. USSR has been buried. That leaves US and China. Pakistan has learned the art of playing the big powers against each other and milking a livelihood out of it. And the powers have had to play into Pakistan’s objectives and turn a blind eye on many occasions and even support Pakistan’s cause.

If the big powers simply leave everything to the region, and allow things to settle down on their own, may be there will be room for improvement. This includes China as well. China has used Pakistan as a proxy to contain India. The US has caused tremendous chaos and confusion in the region. If these powers abstain from interfering, it will help India and Pakistan to resolve their differences without seeking outside influence.

Kashmir really is not an issue. Trouble arises there only when Pakistan foments it. And it has to be linked to any foreign aid that Pakistan receives. India for its part should abrogate the law that allows its security forces to act with impunity for its brutal acts in a sensitive region. Personnel must be held accountable for their extra-judicial actions and punished. Pakistan must sincerely stop aiding terrorists to infiltrate into Kashmir and trigger violence.If both countries allow Kashmir to settle and stay in peace for sometime, India will be encouraged to pull its security forces out of Kashmir. If Pakistan wants that to happen, it needs to do its part of not allowing the militant groups to have a free hand.

If Pakistan can help foil any Mumbai style attacks on India in the future, that will bring in more confidence and trust in Indians towards Pakistan. Some sacrifice is needed.

It would probably take a decade of slow confidence building measures between the two countries before anything can be attempted.

Currently the mutual mistrust negates any attempts to improve the situation in the region. Pakistan’s military and the ISI should feel confident in their own military’s strength instead of being paranoiac about Indian threat along its Eastern border. Indian military response has always been in a retaliatory mode. India has not been the aggressor all these years. It has only responded to Pakistani military’s aggression.

Pakistanis have to take India off their minds for sometime and focus on the cancer that is eating them from within. India will not interfere or sabotage anything. Fear about being surrounded by India are unnecessary. India has moved on in a different direction. It does not need to play regional games anymore to progress. It has found a better way to improve its stature in the world.

Pakistan and India should promise each other that there will be no interference in each others’ affairs to start with. This includes Pakistani military, ISI, and its non-state actors. Only after seeing this assurance grow with time, will India be in a position to trust Pakistan. Only then Pakistan’s demands on Kashmir can be looked at.

A lot of patience is needed and diplomacy is the only way out. Flexing muscles will be a futile and wasteful exercise for Pakistan. Nukes will not help it achieve its goals.

Posted by KPSingh01 | Report as abusive

” That is a lie. The same way westerners like you support a religious exclusivist, terrorist state against a multi-ethnic, multi religious India, your forefathers the British were conniving with Muslim Leagur to balkanize India.”
………………………………………………

The angry little troll is right. It is ALL Myra’s fault.

Myra, you bad girl, you better apologise to the angry little troll because it was your forefathers who divided India. Ofcourse, its common knowledge that India has always been a single united country throughout its history. Always and forever.

While you’re at it, kindly apologise for the state secularism that your forefathers cherished and which were later adopted by independent India. Otherwise the troll will get even angrier and start bombarding this blog entry with proof of how secular he is.

Shame on you for wanting to bring some peace and reconciliation between two angry brothers. How can anyone stoop so low?

It is ALL your fault and you better apologize to the troll before he really stinks up this civilized discussion.

Posted by Shuqaib.Bhutto | Report as abusive

Bhutto, go get your head checked.

Indians and Paks are more family than any other country.

There are too many misperceptions that need to be rectified.

It is no mystery that the colonialists always made it their prerogative to draw borders that will fuel future conflicts, because this is always good for business, sell arms to both sides. First, Aksai Chin, Durand Line, then Kashmir, Kuwait and many others…the list goes on an on.

On many levels, India and Pakistan are both victims of post colonial foreign policy makers that did things to suit their own agendas. No body can deny that.

Posted by G-W | Report as abusive

India has always been a single united country throughout its history. Always and forever.

===
Oh this religiofascist troll wants to regurgitate hatred and lies he learnt in “pakistan studies” that Pakistan existed for thousands of years…India is recent invention. Please allow freedom of expression for this little fascist troll.

Posted by Seekeroftruth | Report as abusive

Little fascist Bhutto calls me a troll! I have been in this blog for nearly 2 yrs now, only recently started seeing this little fascist.

Posted by Seekeroftruth | Report as abusive

At the time of partition when Muslims were in minority, they would not take the democratic route. But when an opportunity presented itself in form of Kashmir, they are crying for plebiscite.

Forget entire India, if only Indian Muslims exclusively were asked to vote on Kashmir’s separation, your deliriums about Islam-unmah and indian-muslims-are-brothers will evaporate instantly.

Posted by Seth | Report as abusive

“Qureshi complained his counterpart repeatedly took instructions from Delhi during their talks, an accusation that Indian External Affairs Minister S.M. Krishna denied.”

Not only Krishna but even Qureshi himself today denies it. What he ‘meant’ was that a junior aide was contacting Delhi. What will be the version to-morrow is something worth waiting.

That apart, what is wrong in consulting your own governemnt? Krishna came representing India, not himself personally with his own personal brief. This is done in every negotiation. So what is that actually got under Qureshi’s bonnet? Besides the Indians claim that the complete Pakistani delegation walked out at times and left them alone in the middle of the discussions. Nothing wrong in that. So what is the fuss really about?

Reports now suggest that the talks broke over the issue of setting time lines. What did Qureshi expect? That the first meeting, after years, and he would be able to come out laying time schedules for what and when? To me, it simply reflects his own inexperience and insecurity.

Lastly, we know what India came out to discuss and India has said it openly time without number. The reason is simple, unless there is some outcome on 26/11 the Indian Govt will simply not be able to carry its population behind it on this one.

It is hilarious to read about Pakistani’s now saying we don’t want to talk, India doesn’t want peace blah blah blah. The fact remains ever since India brought the process to a halt the Pak stand has been that dialogue must remain – or has everyone conveniently forgotten that?

What exactly did the Pakistani side bring to the table?

Posted by DaraIndia | Report as abusive

Shuqaib said:

> Quote ” The fundamental problem is that the status quo, with India in effective control of most of Jammu and Kashmir, favours India. Thus, a sustained series of so-called confidence building measures which reduces the threat of hostilities has the effect of making the status quo more tolerable for India over time, thus creating a strong disincentive for India to engage in a real negotiation. Correspondingly, in Pakistan, confidence building measures in the absence of progress on the core issues in dispute only make the prospect of Indian concessions on Kashmir all the more unlikely and, thus, a policy focused initially on creating trust all the less sustainable” End Quote.

> I have never seen anybody summarize the entire problem using such sanitized words and phrases. The guy has said everything worth saying without crossing any diplomatic lines. Sheer brilliance.

You’re right, and this is Realpolitik. Don’t get me wrong, I’m not talking like an Indian here or boasting about India’s strength. I’m trying to analyse the situation from the perspective of a neutral observer.

Let’s ask ourselves what is the real pressure on India today to settle its differences with Pakistan? India has survived so many years, even with a near-constant terrorist threat, many armed conflicts, opportunistic support to secessionist movements and the like, and yet hasn’t suffered. On the contrary, its GDP growth rate is only accelerating. India will soon be growing at 10% a year for the indefinite future and will become increasingly important to the rest of the world.

In contrast, I have read that Pakistan’s GDP growth rate last year was 0%. This means that India is pulling away from Pakistan. No longer can the two countries be bracketed together in the eyes of foreign observers.

The real urgency is on Pakistan. If Pakistan does not extract a negotiated settlement now, the terms will only get less favourable as time goes on. A decade from now, Pakistan will be economically much weaker compared to India than it is today. It simply cannot make demands then.

Strategies on Kashmir should also be realistic. Formalising the Line of Control as the international border is what is on the table today. Time is on India’s side. The longer the delay, the less there will be on offer.

I would think, given the cards that have been dealt, the Pakistanis should take what’s on offer today and then extract revenge in more constructive ways, i.e., make their country more prosperous with a higher per-capita GDP than India. As a historical example, Japan accepted the reality of defeat after the US nuclear attack, then counterattacked with an onslaught of cheaper and better automobiles.

Pakistan can certainly best India in per-capita economic measures. It has done so before. Why don’t we shift our competitive efforts to a more constructive race to the top, instead of a race to the bottom?

Regards,
Ganesh Prasad

Posted by prasadgc | Report as abusive

From the comments on this forum I get the impression that the two Govts. are genuinely representing the expressions of its people.

.It is not uncommon to set a time table for future discussions, the question is was it the contents they did not agree on or was India not prepared to commit for further discussions?
.It is also not unusual to consult one’s Govt. for advice, direction and decisions when required. Even the heads of states have to consult their party leaders before commiting to any substance.
Let us conclude that the long awaited meeting was a fiasco. Some basics should have been agreed betweeen the respective Govts. before hand to avoid this theatre act.
In any case if the PM of India has said he is prepared to meet Pakistan more than half way if they abondon terrorism as a foreign policy too. Then the clever Faqir is no different than the Israeli leaders with similar utterences and pretending to be the victims of terrorism from others.Hence no negotiations!! I would say shame on the leaders of Pakistan to even shake hands with the current Indian leaders. If they cannot live as good neighbours with you, then learn to live as good enemies with India. You are not alone in this camp.
Reform the current colonial structure of your military and make it a people’s army not suppressing its own citizens. Let the people work hard and not await the give aways from the Saudis and the USA! China is a great example to follow, their struggle is not foreign to any one. Today they are the third biggest economy in the world.
There is no need for Pakistani Govt. to discuus the plight of kashmiris, they have too much on their plate and worry about the people in their own territory.
Rex Minor

Posted by pakistan | Report as abusive

I see very little chance of peace between the two countries, India is still an enemy of Pakistan. Let me explain how; India is biding its time and will negotiate in a time and manner that suits it, ignoring the core issues according to Pakistan’s definition. For Pakistan Kashmir, water, siachin etc are all core issues. India is only worried about terrorism.
India would like to keep the pressure on Pakistan, drag its feet, increase its defense budget rapidly and while Pakistan tries to keep up, valueable resources are sucked into an arms race where social upliftment of people is ignored.
For now, Pakistan must keep a strong military posture towards India, cease all cooperation on issues of terrorism, bring India to a point where it realizes the importance of peace with Pakistan.

Posted by Umairpk | Report as abusive

Another way is to be an active partner in ‘string of pearls’ strategy of China. Invest heavily into building Pakistan’s Naval power and threaten India’s Navy. Collaborate with China and any other country to curtail India.
Gradually Pakistan military should quit the policy of using armed terrorist groups like LeT against India for tactical gains which bring consequences for Pakistan internationally. There are many other long-term action plans which can be undertaken to challenge India strategically. One of the way is to build Pakistan’s own economy more stronger and sustainable investing in IT, transportation, infrastructure and communication. Only then we can force India to change its stance, it will take time but is the sure way of influencing a much bigger country.

Posted by Umairpk | Report as abusive

“Pakistan must keep a strong military posture towards India, cease all cooperation on issues of terrorism, bring India to a point where it realizes the importance of peace with Pakistan.”
==

Umair has summed up what pak has been doing for 63 years. And he thinks it has been working for Pakistan!
Cease all co-operation =
“non state” actors funded, trained and sponsored by the state “actors” will continue terrorism.

We are supposed to negotiate on this.

Posted by Seekeroftruth | Report as abusive

No matter what Indian politicians say in public, they realize that India is under no pressure to solve any dispute with Pakistan that requires any concession from India. Pakistan knows this too and they had to resort to terrorism hoping to achieve some concessions from India. Now that thing has back-fired too.

People in this blog openly declare India as an enemy and only care about their wishlist (no matter how crucial but nobody’s dying because of it) than India’s concern over their sustained support for terrorism. India should make sure that Pakistan’s defense budget stays at 70% in future and improve the internal security situation instead. They are a dying nation and all we need to do is to time them out. At one point, Pakistan will have to resort to openly selling nuclear technology and that would be the final nail in its coffin.

In summary, whatever rules Pakistan wants to play with, India is game for it.

Posted by Seth | Report as abusive

Sadiq Bhutto and GW, it seems you both need some kind of psychatric treatment. In fact the nationalist hindus are grateful for British and other European colonisers for giving hindus freedom from treachourous muslim rulers who ruled over us for 800 years,during the treachourous and brutal muslim rule, hinus have lost their culture, our civilasions, leading to countless other stupid religions beliefs and rituals which find no mention in our ancient hindu scriptures ,

Hindus and muslims are never families, it is these so called Nehru brand socialists and seculrists ,who were more interested to further their interests, at the cost of the nation, Partition is a good thing which happened to hindus, at least they are protected in India .

The only solution to Kashmir issue is the plebiscite to determine the wishes of the people if they want to join Pakistan or wants freedom, but the interests of minority budhists and pandits should also be protected.

Posted by manishindia | Report as abusive

” India is only worried about terrorism.” Umair

Like the rest of the world – specially terror emanating from Pakistan.

Posted by DaraIndia | Report as abusive

Pakistanis have to stop behaving like alpha males. That is the real problem that prevents progress from happening. Pakistan is a relatively smaller country compared to India. It simply cannot match India on everything. Some of the posters here reflect Pakistani sentiments clearly – somehow they assume that they ruled India, therefore cannot accept a second fiddle status of a smaller nation. India has its own needs and priorities and Pakistan should not spend its energy trying match each and every one of them. Pakistan has its own needs which are different from those of India. Equating themselves with India has driven them to the brink. This is not cricket or hockey where eleven players face eleven others. Nations are very different from sports teams. I see the attitude in some Pakistanis as though India is standing at their gate asking for favors. India does not need Pakistan at all. Its immense size gives it the needed stability. Things cannot spread far and wide from one end to another. What goes on in Kashmir does not affect the other parts of the country. So India can battle its adversaries in one part and set up centers for progress in another part. For India, Kashmir is really not an issue. All law and order problems that Kashmiris are protesting about are across most of the country. In general, in other states they do not get neighboring countries staging proxy wars supporting them. Kashmir, unfortunately, is sitting next to Pakistan. If Pakistan does not cause irritation, there will be no issue.

The solution to the Kashmir problem is simple. Define the LoC as international border and be done with it. No Indian will accept the secession of Kashmir anymore. Just like Pakistan accepted Bangladesh as a reality, it has no choice but to accept J&K as part of India. Things have moved on. There is no way Pakistan can continue using terrorism as a means to achieve its ends. It is already burning as a result. It will burn more if it continues on. They should be careful about relying on China. Chinese will only use Pakistan to achieve their goals. Any country that has become China’s vassal state would resemble North Korea, Burma etc. If Pakistanis realize what they are walking into, they would be careful. Chinese cannot be held accountable for what they do.

Posted by KPSingh01 | Report as abusive

@”There are many other long-term action plans which can be undertaken to challenge India strategically. One of the way is to build Pakistan’s own economy more stronger and sustainable investing in IT, transportation, infrastructure and communication”
Posted by Umairpk

This comment says all about the Pakistani mindset. Even the economic progress which they want to achieve, is in order to “challange India” & not for the betterment of their people & nation.

Posted by Mortal1 | Report as abusive

List of things Pakistan can do to take on India on long term strategic basis:

1.Cease all peace initiatives and keep diplomatic ties to a minimum.
2.Cooperate with China, threaten SLOCs(Sea lines of communication) challenge india from Arabian sea, Indian ocean all the way to South China sea.
3.Invest and transform Pakistan Navy from a coastal Navy to a blue water Navy, with nuclear subs, aircraft carriers, threaten Indian IT and financial hubs of Mumbai and Bangalore.
4.Expand nuclear weapons program, ballistic missiles capability.
5.Deny India a foothold in Afghanistan and any investment opportunity there.
6. Deny a corridor and access to energy resources and transit routes to oil and gas pipelines to central asia and persian gulf.
7. Build an sustainable and diversified Pakistani economy making the country a hub of transportation, communication, technology and aviation. Thereby denying India the competitive advantage in terms of FDI-Foreign investment.
8. In a diplomatic offensive rally in all international organizations, human rights groups, highlight India’s oppression and abuses in Kashmir and its state sponsored terrorism there.
9. Boycott sports with India, also boycott its products etc.

All these steps when implemented properly and pursued vigorously over a period of time will act as force multipliers and give Pakistan considerable leverage to shape things strategically. For now there seem to be no benefit in peace with India. Only punitive actions and belligerent stance will bring India to the negotiating table and discuss with honesty and prepare for concessions. Current soft approach with India does not work, some sticks are required. Pakistan might be a smaller country but that does not mean it doesn’t have the will and ability to confront its enemy no matter how big.

If implemented

Posted by Umairpk | Report as abusive

In short, to hit where it hurts most, until Pakistan starts to threaten India’s vital economic and security interests and curb its long-term goals, India will never realize how it has undermined Pakistan’s interests in the past and still continues to do so.
Until India is an enemy i see no point in giving a chance to peace initiatives, instead all time and resources must be channelized to undermine India.

Posted by Umairpk | Report as abusive

Pakistan suffers from several disadvantages vis-a-vis India, Pakistan has a poor geography, sharing a 2200 km long eastern border with a hostile nation, In Afghanistan the border is again porous and the country lacks strategic depth, requiring considerable effort to ensure Afghanistan is atleast neutral if not friendly towards Pakistan, to the south-west is Iran which is largely a Shia dominated country, to the north a small territory is shared with China and south is Arabian sea. Punjab province forms the basis of Pakistan, much of the industry and agriculture based there, provinces of Sindh and Baluchistan have long seen injustice where population has remained under feudalism and denied education and upliftment.
Above all, India has always been an existential threat to Pakistan. In the past a combination of nuclear weapons, assymetric warfare and militant proxies have worked well in Pakistan’s favour to keep the Indian threat in check.

With India’s increasing economic power, it is time for Pakistan to take the fight to a new level and threaten India’s very economic interests in above mentioned ways.

Good luck to all!

Posted by Umairpk | Report as abusive

Umair,

Your wish list above, is not only fantasial & suicidal but also comical in many ways. While some of your lofty ambitions “to take on India” require the means & resources which you simply don’t have, other measures on your list (like cutting off trade), would actually hurt Pakistan much more than it would hurt India. By all means, keep on spending your meagre resources on defence budget & that will certainly speed up your demise. Also, in order to adopt the “sticks” aproach, one needs to have some sticks in the first place. But keep dreaming buddy, after all it doesen’t cost anything.

Posted by Mortal1 | Report as abusive

KPSingh:
“I see the attitude in some Pakistanis as though India is standing at their gate asking for favors. India does not need Pakistan at all. Its immense size gives it the needed stability.”

-One day India’s sheer size will become its biggest liability, it will disintegrate like Yugoslavia and Pakistan will play its role. With India’s growing economy it will need all energy resources oil and gas it can get its hands upon. Pakistan will deny that, with its strategic position Pakistan is a gateway to central asia. You will never get the access to oil, gas, copper and coal which will be needed to sustain the economic growth and keep up with energy needs of an emerging economy.
there is a reason why china has dramatically increased its footprint in countries with natural resources, they know it fuels their expanding economy.
Even if India were to secure those resources, a hostile Pakistan Navy can enforce and threaten Naval blockade and threaten the oil supply and disrupt India’s economy in a conflict.

-”Just like Pakistan accepted Bangladesh as a reality, it has no choice but to accept J&K as part of India. Things have moved on.” KPSingh

-Yes, just as India accepted Pakistan’s nuclear power status, India has no choice but accept Pakistan’s unwillingness to be forced into submission. Things have certainly moved on, the kind of helpless country Pakistan was in 1971, today it is in a position to pose a serious threat to India’s vital national interests.

It is time India decides what kind of relationship it wants with Pakistan. One like an enemy or like a neighbour and be mindful of the interests of its neighbour. You do’nt have the luxury to remain undecided on this, either way you will have to take a position eventually and that will determine the course of future. Things will never remain the same for ever, just like the situation evolved in last 60 years since independent, things will kieep moving in future as well.

Posted by Umairpk | Report as abusive

Mortal:
“Your wish list above, is not only fantasial & suicidal but also comical in many ways. While some of your lofty ambitions “to take on India” require the means & resources which you simply don’t have”

-Sitting in the comfort of my home, just at an arms length from the headquarters of Pakistan Military I can assure all these options are discussed in frequent corps commanders conferences which are held among military leaders. Recently Pakistan has been acquiring some of needed military equipment like mid-air refueling tankers, advanced German submarines, AEWCs air-borne warning control systems and the era of aircraft carriers is only a matter of time. Atleast it should be, but those things do take time and require economic strength.

In strategic dialouges with NATO, US and EU, Pakistani leaders have talked of market access and trade/investment. I know Pakistan is very far from being an economic power, depending on IMF and world bank still. Massive economic reforms would be needed to turn around Pakistan’s economy. But when you have to fight an enemy, everything has to be done to defeat the enemy. In Pakistan’s case, to build a strong economy to back the military. And Pakistan military knows this, otherwise if Pakistan’s economy could have been strong I can assure you Kashmir could have been snatched from your hands.
And remember, when US invaded Iraq in first Gulf war, it took help of countries like Kuwait and Saudi Arabia, positioned its forces on their territory and Gulf oil money was used to finance that war.
What stops Pakistan from forging partnerships with China, Sri Lanka, Bangladesh etc.? Almost each of these country have a conflict with India.

Posted by Umairpk | Report as abusive

Last but not least,
If Pakistan manages to protect its interests, keep Afghanistan as its sphere of influence and deny India a foothold there, does not allow India to undermine national interests like support of Kashmir, water issues etc. That will be a success.
India being a larger country, with more regional and global aspirations, it will fail if it does not manage to exploit the full potential of its economy, is unsuccessful in securing energy resources to sustain its growing economy etc.

Both countries India and Pakistan are different with different aspirations. But some of common goals of both are promotion of national interest, better life for their people and larger prosperity. How difficult it is for both India and Pakistan to allow each other to achieve their basic goals?

Given that India has always been an existential threat to Pakistan, I would state India is the culprit.

Posted by Umairpk | Report as abusive

Umairpk:
No one except you can change the perception about India. It hurts Pakistan, has no effect on India.

@For now, Pakistan must keep a strong military posture towards India, cease all cooperation on issues of terrorism, bring India to a point where it realizes the importance of peace with Pakistan.”
–Umairpk

–All I can do is smile at this strategy. But I liked you “economic growth” plan –except that you are stuck with India again. Is that your bar. For some “sky is the limit” and for some “India is the limit”.

@In the past a combination of nuclear weapons, assymetric warfare and militant proxies have worked well in Pakistan’s favour to keep the Indian threat in check.”
-Umairpk

–This remind me of a quote by Napoleon Bonaparte:
“Never interrupt your enemy when he is making a mistake.”

Please go ahead with your policy. So far I love Indian strategy of not attacking Pakistan and responding to Pakistan-initiated aggression. Worked pretty well in my opinion.

Posted by RajeevK | Report as abusive

Umairpk:

@Given that India has always been an existential threat to Pakistan, I would state India is the culprit.”

—I am intrigued by this term “India being an existential threat” for Pakistan.

Did you ever wonder if India was smaller like Pakistan and Pakistan bigger like India, what would be India’s status. May be by now Pakistan would have invaded and taken over India. So feel lucky that Pakistan exists and India did not attack Pakistan. This is no small favor from your “enemy”.

Posted by RajeevK | Report as abusive

I note that some participnts are desperately disappointed. They had hoped that the Indian ambassador was carrying goodies in his bag for Pakistan. Instead of threatning India, is’nt it about time that Pakistan put its own house in order. The current Pakistan military has never been able to protect Pakistan, and unless you guys accept this fact your start after sixty years would be faulty. The stregnth of each country lies within its people and not dependent upon other powers. The German republic today with eighty million people is the strongest economy in Europe. The same country was defeated by the allied troops almost sixty years ago. This country understood the stregnth of its people and mobilised it and with the help of the marshal plan became over a period the finest example in Europe, Made in Germany was given to their products by the allied force as a punishment, which later became known in the world markets as the finest peace of workmanship. Their talent in inventions and industriousness is second to none. Their inventions have provided a turbo start to the Chinese economy, and today it is the chinese who have the fastest passenger train in the world using the technology imported from Germany. There is no need to threaten India, nor there is a need to use State organised terrorist acts. The Kashmiri resistance in asymetric form is enough to defeat the Indian bogey. The Kashmiris are fine people but they have the ability to learn that freedom from occupation cannot be achieved by Gandhian philosaphies, another bogey which was planted in the Indian sub-continent as if the Brits left their colony because of non violence agitation from the Indian folks.
Ther most powerful and effective step Pakistan could is to turn its back on India and try to forget this episode and like some one mentioned on this forum to forget the loss of east Pakistan. This is what merlyn the magician did ……!
Rex Minor

Posted by pakistan | Report as abusive

@ Rajeevk
Also remember the last days of the Bonapart. Next time you are in France, take the chance to visit Mal Maison, where his Josaphine resided.
Rex Minor

Posted by pakistan | Report as abusive

Umair,

I happen to live a few blocks from the UN, doesen’t make me an insider of the going-ons in there. But, if indeed your leaders are actually delusional & unrealistic enough to think along the destructive lines, mentioned by you, then God help your country. I like the fact that you want to achieve economic growth & prosperity but the problem is that you want to do it for all the wrong reasons. You simply won’t be able to achieve positive results with a negative motivation & that’s the reason why belligerant militaristic nations like North Korea & Cuba don’t have a viable economy to speak of & Pakistan is very close to being in that catagoty. If you want to build a strong economy, do it for the betterment & prosperity of your poeple & nation and not so that you can “back your military & enable it to challange” your much bigger neighbour.

@”What stops Pakistan from forging partnerships with China, Sri Lanka, Bangladesh etc.? Almost each of these country have a conflict with India”

Nothing stops you from forging partnerships with anyone but all that BS about India having bad relations with Bangladesh, Sri lanka etc is nothing but propaganda in your country. India’s relations with all it’s neighbours, except Pakistan, are good.

Posted by Mortal1 | Report as abusive

Also, if India really wants to hurt Pakistan, all it has to do is impose harsh economic sanctions on Pakistan (similar to US sanctions on Cuba) as per which India won’t do business with any country which does business with Pakistan. How many countries will back Pakistan in such a scenario?

Posted by Mortal1 | Report as abusive

@Umair
Before you fly, you need to walk. Pakistan is no Germany. 63 years of war monegering, religious frenzy, terrorism have taken you to where you are. We don’t care if you live peacefully, prosperously. But you don’t have the instituitional, industrial, societal and educational infrastructure to achieve those goals. I point this out only because of your chest thumping.

The only reason the time b/w 1947-65 Pakistan was relatively prosperous was the society was less militant, residual instituitional benefits of Bristish India and humongous infusion of aid from the West since you were in the “right” camp.

All countries have disputes with neighbours. US has disputes with Mexico and Canada. You get accused by 3 neighbours India, Afghanistan and Iran of sponsoring terrorism in their countries. India’s conflicts are not that serious with neighbors, and they are manageable.

Posted by Seekeroftruth | Report as abusive

Umair,

With nuclear deterrence, India is no longer an existential threat. Excuse my ignorance of military matters but why do we need strategic depth now?

India presents no threat under the nuclear umbrella.
It would be suicidal of India to deprive us of water, to impose suffocating blockades of our ports or to militarily overwhelm our country.

Yes, We should absolutely be prepared and vigilante but not single-minded. I prefer not to see the world and our future through the limiting prism of animosity with India. We have a beautiful country, beautiful people, majestic landscape, tremendous history, immense creative talent, why limit ourselves?

Posted by saif_1980 | Report as abusive

@ Ganesh.

Salaam.

I’m a realpoliticker too, but I recognize the limits of realpoliticks in maintaining peace in certain situations. I’ll give you a very small example. When the Soviets came knocking in the 1980′s, realpolitiks would have dictated that Pakistan play nice and submit to their will. After all it would be suicidal to do anything else given the disparities in economies and the military between Pakistan and USSR.

But our survival instincts told us that if we did not take the Soviets head on, then they would most likely be in Karachi by the end of the 80s. A few years later, the Americans arrived with the Stingers, but by that time the Soviets were already looking for a way out of the beating we were giving them.

Regarding the current situation, the perspective of the Pakistani establishment today w.r.t India has been shaped by the history of interaction between India and Pakistan. Our policy makers firmly believes that from day one, there has been a constant effort by our neighbour to undermine Pakistan through brute force (Junagadh, Kashmir, Bangladesh etc), support to separatist elements (Mukhti Bahini in 71, Baluchistan and Pakhtunkhwa in the mid 70′s) and diplomatic as well as economic isolation.

Our policymakers have come to the conclusion that the current and future threat from India is constant and un-ending, especially in light of India’s declared aim of becoming a world power. They argue that the first step in becoming a world power is to first gain total supremacy in the region and that is not possible without first tackling Pakistan. In other words, they believe that because of India’s future aspirations, it cannot strategically bypass Pakistan even if it wanted to.

From their perspective, it is not a matter of realpolitiks anymore but rather a matter of Pakistan’s survival as an independent political entity. This ‘shift in perception’ from realpoliticks to survival is the real game changer and it has gone more or less unnoticed by certain quarters.

Now, from the perspective of our policmakers, Kashmir is a strategic ‘riposte’ to try to take the battleground away from Pakistan. As far as the time factor is concerned, our strategists believe that China’s interest in Pakistan negates India’s advantages in time, size and economics, while our ‘strategic assets’ negate India’s conventional superiority. I don’t see this conflict ending anytime soon because realpolitiks have given way to the survival instincts of one side and the aspirations of another.

I would not like to get into a cicular debate about whether the perception of our policy makers is true or not (The Indian public is taught one thing and the Pakisani public another). However, you will most likely agree with me that in politics ‘perception is reality’ and if this is what the top policy makers in Pakistan percieve (and believe me, they do) then India must address that perception one way or another. Otherwise peace will always elude us.

” Why don’t we shift our competitive efforts to a more constructive race to the top, instead of a race to the bottom?”

We would love to see that day.

Salaam Alaikum (Peace be with you)

Posted by Shuqaib.Bhutto | Report as abusive

Some of the things, India should do immediately vis-a-vis the Rogue, Terrorist & Failed State of Pakistan:

1) Cut off all dimplomatic ties.

2) Repeal the ‘No first Nuclear strike’ law.

3) Impose strict economic sanctions (as mentioned by ‘Mortal1′ above).

4) Scrap the Indus Water Treaty, drastically cut off Pakistan’s water supply & choke off it’s agriculture industry. (they accuse us of this anyways, let’s give them their money’s worth)

5) Heavily subsidize the Indian exporters who compete with Pakistani exports (rice, garments etc) & choke off Pakistan’s export industry

6) Sponsor insurgencies in Baluchistan, NWFP & FATA, Sindh & Punjab and break Pakistan into 5-8 nations. (they accuse us of this anyways, let’s give them their money’s worth).

7) Launch more diplomatic offensives & bring their terrorism in front of every nation in the world. Isolate them even more than they currently are. Every Indian embassy & consulate in the world should be used for this. Facilitate, Pakistan being oficially named as a ‘Rogue Nation’.

8) Build relations & use economic clout with China & Saudi Arabia and make them realize that it’s in their interest to dump the terrorist state of Pakistan. Work with Afghanistan, Iran & Russia towards speeding up the failure & disinegration of Pakistan.

Posted by RAAW | Report as abusive

Mr Minor:

@Also remember the last days of the Bonapart. Next time you are in France, take the chance to visit Mal Maison, where his Josaphine resided.
Rex Minor
Posted by pakistan

–As a matter of fact, I already did. So, what;s ur point?

Are u this naive to superimpose India and Napolean’s whole life. Pick the best and discard the rest may be not known to you.

Posted by RajeevK | Report as abusive

Saif1981:

@With nuclear deterrence, India is no longer an existential threat. Excuse my ignorance of military matters but why do we need strategic depth now?”

–I hope he and others with this perception understand this.

Posted by RajeevK | Report as abusive

@ saif_1980

For the sake of your country, I hope that there are more like you out there in Pakistan, who think like you do.

Posted by Mortal1 | Report as abusive

@ RAAW

belligerence is never the answer for belligerence!

Posted by Mortal1 | Report as abusive

@RAAW:
No need to indulge in such war like maneuvers at this time. I hope you are not suggesting them to be done now.
Compared to 10 years ago, or even 5 years ago Pakistan is much weaker now economically, and diplomatically. In fact the only leverage it has on is through negative tactic of not co-operating in Afghanistan.

Pakistan’s current activities are limited to printing Indian currency, narco traffic and funding, sponsoring terrorism. This has been ineffective to influence India, and more they have been unable to block India’s progress.

Cancelling Indus water treaty, etc come into play only if pakistan army/ISI try Mumbai type attack again.

No one should talk about nuclear weapons, but India’s plan is to ensure second strike capability from multiple patforms especially submarine based.

About 7#.Why waste money on “propaganda” when every one in the world knows what is pakistan upto?

#8 is a very good point. Increasing trade and economic interests between India- China and India- Saudi Arabia are very improtant to contain Pakistani aggression. One major example for efforts to win over SA is inviting the King of SA to be chief guest at Republic day parade a few years ago.

Posted by Seekeroftruth | Report as abusive

Meant to say no one should talk about nuclear weapons in a trivial fashion.

Posted by Seekeroftruth | Report as abusive

I’ll add one more to the list above:

9) Accelerate defense spending. I see that these bankrupt fools want to compete with India in defense. Force them to spend more & more of their reserves on defense and that will certainly speed up their bankruptcy & failure.

@ Mortal1:

I appreciate your opinion but sometimes, the opponent leaves you with no option but to pay it back in the same coin.

@seekeroftruth:

I want these steps to be taken ‘yesterday’. Pakistan has proven aplenty that it’s rogue & hostile nation which deserves nothing but hostility in return. I don’t want to wait for another Mumbai 2008. Read the comments above; they see us as nothing but enemies, SO lets show them what enemies REALLY DO!!

Posted by RAAW | Report as abusive

I think Shuqaib raises a good point and it deserves attention.

What is the difference between Pakistan’s support of Kashmiri separatists and India’s support of Mukhti Bahini in Bangladesh or Pushtun nationalists in NWFP or Balochi nationalists in Baluchistan?

Posted by saif_1980 | Report as abusive

@ Saif

Salaam.

The reason why I did not participate in your very constructive effort in the previous blog entry was because…

(i) I’ve done these exercises countless times before with my Indian and Pakistani friends. The end result is always the same. ALWAYS.

(ii) My main purpose for commenting on this blog so far was to challenge the disinformation being spread about Pakistanis and Muslims.

You’re doing a great job as an arbitrator/facilitator. You’re being neutral (to the best of your abilities) and thats what matters most. I offer you one simple advice, STAY NEUTRAL i.e. do not yield to the temptation of answering from the Pakistani side (as you did once before). That will simply undermine your wonderful effort. Let Umair, Pakistani or Shakir do the answering. I’ll pitch in when needed.

Good job buddy, keep it up.

Salaam

Posted by Shuqaib.Bhutto | Report as abusive

Umair’s rants still reflect the contempt many Pakistanis have towards India. Somehow they have grown up with the belief that India is weak. The military he supports is full of that attitude. That is the reason why it has made several attempts at India like the coyote in the Road runner cartoon and fallen hard each time. Mr. Umair does not seem to have a handle on how infrastructure is built and how vital it is to build an economy out of it. He seems to believe that it a simple switch to turn on and overnight Pakistan will become an economic power house. Foreign investment is vital and no one in their right minds would go into Pakistan to set up business or invest money there. With the coffers being empty, Pakistan has been surviving on foreign aid.

To make Pakistan an economic power house, it will take at least two decades of sustained effort, peace and infrastructure building. For the past 60 odd years this has not been possible. One needs a stable government, rights, educational and energy infrastructure. Pakistan has none of that. The goal is lofty but the state is empty.

Digging grave to trap India from all sides will only lead to Pakistan falling hard into it. It is amazing that people like Umair have not realized the fact that their country is suffering from suicide attacks and fundamentalism because of trying to dig India’s grave in the past. And I will not be surprised if the military he admires so much, still has the same pea-brained approach.

It is the sign of decline. I feel really sorry for people like Umair. They will have to end up watching the disintegration of their nation in front of their own eyes. The fire that is burning in their country cannot be quelled. Trying to divert it towards India will not work this time. Pakistan’s major supporter, the US will not be backing them this time. China cannot be trusted. They are best known for back stabbing. China only looks at what it can gain and if it sees a chaotic Pakistan, it might abandon its friendship with it. After all it is money that will go down the drain. Instead if it sets up business ties with India and makes money out of it, it may not show much interest in Pakistan. So do not count on them much. Good luck!

Posted by KPSingh01 | Report as abusive

@”What is the difference between Pakistan’s support of Kashmiri separatists and India’s support of Mukhti Bahini in Bangladesh or Pushtun nationalists in NWFP or Balochi nationalists in Baluchistan?”
Posted by saif_1980

Mukti Bahini was an indigenous bengali rebellion outfit & India did not start supporting it untill Pakistani Army’s ‘operation searchlight’ was well under way, resulting in genocide & rapes of millions of bengalis. India had no choice but to step up it’s support of Mukti Bahini since it faced an alarming & disasterous scenario of millions of bengali refugees strorming into West Bengal. Any country in that situation, would’ve done exactly, what India did.

In case of Kashmir, there was no meaningful rebellion or agitation, to speak of. Some political grievences, maybe but that’s quite common in developing nations. But nothing unmanagable. Kashmir, by & large, was peaceful until 1989, when Pakistan started it’s proxy war & infiltrated thousands of Mujahadeen into J&K. The Pakistani army created, funded & trained punjabi terrorist groups like LeT & JeM to infiltrate into J&K and fight the Indian forces. From thereon, the conflict grew & the rest is known to all. So, while East Pakistan burned irrespective of India, the fire in Kashmir was started & fueled by Paskistan. That’s the difference between East Pakistan in 1971 & Kashmir in 1989.

As for India’s support of insurgencies in Baluchistan & NWFP, there is absolutely no credible evidence to support this claim. If you can cite me some credible non-Pakistani sources which verify this claim, please provide them.

Posted by Mortal1 | Report as abusive

saif_1980:

@What is the difference between Pakistan’s support of Kashmiri separatists and India’s support of Mukhti Bahini in Bangladesh or Pushtun nationalists in NWFP or Balochi nationalists in Baluchistan?”

—-What is the difference between India’s stance that Kashmir is integral part of India and Pakistan’s pre-condition for Azad Kashmir politics that selects only the politicians which say Kashmir will become part of Pakistan? Those which ask for independence and self-determination are disallowed.

—My ansr to the Qn is that India’s “moral support” to those groups has been for short time. How long were Mukiti Bahini supported? Months? Pakistan presented the opportunity (reference: Pak Ex-Air Chief Asghar Ali Khan). Also India did not use its citizens to cross the border and fight. It sure was opportunistic (but do not forget the backdrop of 1965 wars (at a time when India lost 1962 war) waged by Pakistan meant to take away the remaining portion of Kashmir). That makes me ask this: Was it fair for India to silently watch genocide next door?

India has also given “moral support” to Abdul Gaffar Khan’s Pushtoon movement and Baluchistan. RAW wings active in Pakistan were officially shut down by ex-PM IK Gujral (PM directly controls RAW) on moral grounds. That wing was also there coinciding with pakistan’s support to Sikh militancy in Punjab and was shut down in early or mid 90s when Sikh militancy was controlled.

As a common man, I would be unhappy if India was borrowing billions and pouring them into maintaining terrorists for decades to kill Pakistanis when Indians need those billions.

Last but not least, I would say that India-Pak reminds me of a fight between 2 persons or 2 groups. But once the fight is over and there are 2 options to keep the grudge and keep on killing for generations or more mature is to not fight anymore. This can be forced at individual level, but the eqaution is not so conducive at the level of nations where there are too many factors to promote the fight than to stop it—call it geopolitics, startegic depth, arms Industry or the history.

Posted by RajeevK | Report as abusive

Its interesting to read some rants here – deny India this, deny India that, cut off supply lines, we are nuclear etc etc shows how some people have now completely lost it. This ‘me Tarzan’ bravado and empty chest thumping is getting boring.

Umair, you seem to be under the impression India is dying to make up with Pakistan no matter what you do. You couldn’t be more wrong. If Pakistan also feel similarly, then it is perfectly ok with us. Why were you so insistent about starting talks anyway? We told you for almost a year and a half, we didn’t want to talk till we saw results.

Posted by DaraIndia | Report as abusive

@Mr KP Singh01 &others
Umair is not ranting, but simply expressing the human side of the drama. In my view he has a clean conscious and almost believed in the diplomatic process to resolve conflicts. He has less experience and overlooked the history of the conflict. I am sure he did not mean what he said about the counter actions by Pakistan Govt. We all know that this not the final chapter of history we are witnessing. Let India make more economic gains and become more vulnerable so that its borders are more porus. It was the Brits inroads into the Pashtoon territory which was one of the reason which brought about their exit from the sub-continent. Indian leaders should be treated by Pakistan leaders as outsiders for this is the role they adopted for themselves.
Rex Minor

Posted by pakistan | Report as abusive

I note that many from the suffron brigade have joined in the debate. Let us not mix words and wait for the next stage. Afghanistan Govt. is going to include the Taliban Pashtoons as soon as the foreigners leave their territory. This will complete the axis of muslim states from Turkey to Iran and Afghanistan. Pakistan has the choice to join them or stay alone moaning about what the Indians are doing to them. This is going to occur before India becomes a Nation and improves its standing in the world.
Rex Minor
PS those of you who write so much about the economic power of India should atleast tell the Indian Faqir not to accept the development aid from the west. My few euros are still feeding the poors in India, not to forget the employment of poor unskilled workers in the Gulf states who are living in worst conditions than those living in India. The least Indian PM can do is to visit them and see their living conditions, is this not what a democratzically elected leader does. Those who talk of respect should also know that the new administration did not even let the Indian PM in the white house and instead letthe party enjoy open air in Gadafi designed tents!

Posted by pakistan | Report as abusive

I am curious about India being considered an ‘existential threat’ to Pakistan, especially when smaller countries like Bangladesh, Sri Lanka and Nepal do not use this term. I would really like to understand what this means.

Does it mean that:

1. India will swallow Pakistan up into a single political entity in future

2. India may not dissolve Pakistan’s existence as a separate political entity but will forge an economic regime in South Asia where Pakistan’s destiny will no longer be controlled by Pakistanis but by Indian money

3. India will culturally swamp Pakistan and cause it to lose its sense of identity

or something else?

I’m not dismissing this notion out of hand although it seems a strange concept to me. George Friedman of Stratfor (Strategic Forecasting) says much the same thing, i.e., that Indian power tends to extend outwards in all directions until it reaches natural boundaries, which means that Pakistan will also be overwhelmed. But it’s something I don’t comprehend. What form will it take? More importantly, what exactly do our Pakistani friends fear will happen? We should bring this issue out into the open and discuss it.

Regards,
Ganesh Prasad

Posted by prasadgc | Report as abusive

The difference between Bangladesh and Kashmir:

In the case of both Bangladesh and Kashmir, it was years of misrule by its rulers which caused a political uprising. In both cases the uprising was indigenous and peaceful while the response of the rulers was harsh and uncompromising. In both cases, it was the response, combined with the H.R violations by the security forces which gave birth to local militancy which was later aided by another power.

The fundamental difference between Bangladesh and Kashmir is that the former was a sovereign territory of Pakistan while the latter is as yet a disputed territory.

Similarily, Baluchistan and Pakhtunkhwa are sovereign territories of Pakistan, where an outside power has been busy exploiting the separatist sentiments of certain tribes.

Posted by Shuqaib.Bhutto | Report as abusive

Posing to be victim has been the primary pillar on which pak aggression thrives. It is also interesting to note they like to have it both ways. On the hand, they crowed after successfully launching Mumbai terrorist attack, India is toothless, we do only empty bravado.
OTOH, they would like to claim they are “afraid” of india!! The later to milk more aid and military gadgets.

Posted by Seekeroftruth | Report as abusive

Lashkar-e-Taiba, and Jaish-E-Mohammed are Punjabi organizations, both leadership and cadre. Not Kashmiri.

They have been inolved in hijacking Indian Airlines plane, attacking Indian parliament, bomb blasts in trains, bazzars, and temples, Mumbai train blasts in 2006, and Mumbai mayhem of 2008. All funded, logistically supported by ISI, and political back up given by Pakistani govt.

Mukti Bahimi were Bengali. Were they involved in any thing like above?

Were Mukti Bahini involved

Posted by Seekeroftruth | Report as abusive

“In the case of both Bangladesh and Kashmir, it was years of misrule by its rulers which caused a political uprising”

—> Utter Pakistani BS. I have relatives who have lived in Sri Nagar since the 50′s & it’s a fact that there was hardly any conflict in kashmir until 1989/90, when Pakistan began it’s terrorism agenda in the valley. Ground reality is quite different from the propaganda taught to you by your establishment.

“Similarily, Baluchistan and Pakhtunkhwa are sovereign territories of Pakistan, where an outside power has been busy exploiting the separatist sentiments of certain tribes”

—-> More BS. Have any proof? No, then disappear!

Posted by fitty_cent | Report as abusive

“The fundamental difference between Bangladesh and Kashmir is that the former was a sovereign territory of Pakistan while the latter is as yet a disputed territory.”

If it is a dispute doesn’t mean Pakistan’s stand is the one that is correct. Kashmir, in every legal sense, is a part of India whether you agree or not. I can dispute anything with anyone, does that mean I am in the right? Go through the historical sequence, go through the terms of reference of the Radcliffe Commisiion, go through the United Nations debates – Kashmir is legally a part of India. The reason why the UN resolution spoke of Pakistani troops vacating ALL portions of kashmir while India was permitted to maintain a force to maintain law and prder was because it was accepted that legally Kashmir is part of the Indian Union.

You lost Bangladesh because of the greed of your politicians and the stupidity of Yahya. You are trying to create trouble in Kashmir as revenge for Bangladesh. Keep trying.

Posted by DaraIndia | Report as abusive

If one sees the blogs on India-Pakistan for the past two years on this forum as well others, a trend can be observed. It is a cyclical trend that hops from one issue to another. The issues are generally – Kashmir, Plebiscite, UN resolutions, Junagadh, Hyderabad, Mumbai attacks, Samjauta Express, Shiv Sena, BJP, RSS, Gujerat riots, Narendra Modi, Kargil, Back channel diplomacy, India’s thousand consulates in Afghanistan, Madrasas in Pakistan, RAW, Balochistan, India’s choke hold on rivers and violation of Indus water treaty, nukes, LeT, Taliban, ISI, Pak military, India’s democracy, poverty, Bangladesh, Kashmir, Plebiscite, UN resolutions, Mumbai attacks, Samjauta express and so on.

Generally when one issue is being addressed, invariably an existing or a new Pakistani poster would trigger a drift into one of the other issues and things will snowball in that direction. Indians would come out with references (the same ones and some new ones) and Pakistanis will go silent. After a while, it would be the same claims and counter claims.

Interestingly I see the same trend in Pakistani media and government circles. They all parrot the same thing by shifting from one issue to another when cornered on one. The current Kashmir issue being raised by Pakistan and its citizens has superceded India’s presence in Afghanistan, RAW support to TTP, Balochistan, alleged Indus water treaty violation etc. Soon Kashmir issue will die down and Pakistan will be cornered with some militant being caught with bombs up his rear end and coming from Pakistan. Immediately Pakistan will switch to another issue with India.

This is called dodging and ducking without doing anything. Pakistanis cry wold over Indian army’s human rights violations in Kashmir. When I gave a reference to a BBC article that describes Pak army’s free hand in Swat, I did not see a single response from anyone. Here is the reference again:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-south-as ia-10667545

As soon as I posted it, I saw a differnt issue raised by the Pakistani posters here and they took the discussion away immediately. I see Pak diplomats do the same thing.

Why this double standard? I do not deny that Indian security system follows brutal methods. Why are Pakistanis turning a blind eye to what their military has been doing in South Waziristan, Balochistan etc while they accuse India of the same? Why is the pot calling the kettle black? Pak military can never wash its hands off the blood from East Pakistan. Isn’t it obvious that crocodile tears are being shed about Kashmir in order to score a point? Where is the real feeling?

Be fair in your attitude first before you expect anything from India. You cannot accuse India with allegations while brutally treating your own citizens. ‘

Adding more salt to the wound are authors like Myra who never write anything about the wrong doings of Pakistani military or governments. I am yet to see one article that highlights how things are suppressed in Azad Kashmir or how “militants” are “successfully” being killed by Pak army in South Waziristan or Swat. It resembes Switzerland if I remember correctly.

We are not going to allow Pakistan to get away with its wrong doings. We will campaign hard even if they have the sympathy and connivance from cold war residue left in the Western world.

Posted by KPSingh01 | Report as abusive

@KPSingh,

Your write in a very neat and cohesive manner. I’m a fan!

Re: Pakistanis dodging tough questions – Very correct observation! Some new posters start as objective and then as the thread progresses, they get caught between implications of staying honest and benefits of diverting discussion with their jingoism. I do not believe that these people are so naive that they can’t see error in their ways, they just don’t want to. The latest example in this regard is Rex Minor, who has no answer to why he used the term “your ancestors” in context of tackling Pashtun invaders. He is so ashamed of his own ancestral identity that he will neither admit being on the side of oppressed nor the oppressors but yet feels he has a say in the matter.

All in all, their behavior is not going to change in any short term. But one thing that gives me assurance is the shorter “lifespan” of these posters. They post actively for few weeks and when all of their baseless claims have been refuted with facts and reliable information, they get frustrated with themselves and go AWOL.

Moral of the story, Satyamev Jayate (Truth alone triumphs)!

Posted by Seth | Report as abusive

@ ‘Gangsta wannabe’ Troll

” I have relatives who have lived in Sri Nagar since the 50’s & it’s a fact that there was hardly any conflict in kashmir until 1989/90, when Pakistan began it’s terrorism agenda in the valley…….
….More BS. Have any proof? No, then disappear!”

1) Can you show me any proof that these people you refer to actually ARE your relatives? No. Then disappear!

2) Can you show any proof that they actually lived in Srinagar. No. Then disappear!

3) Besides the BS allegations that are tossed around as ‘proof’, do you have any court worthy proof of Pakistan’s ‘terrorism agenda’ in the valley. No. Then disappear!

4) Do you have any proof that you really are your father’s child? No. I wonder what that makes you. You better disappear…’my son’ ;)

Posted by Shuqaib.Bhutto | Report as abusive

This must scare the Pak military. Israel has developed a workable missile defense system. It won’t be long before India gets it from Israel.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/con tent/article/2010/07/19/AR2010071903171. html?hpid=sec-world

Posted by KPSingh01 | Report as abusive

@KPSigh01
You really have a strange sense of humour or did you genuinely not read the whole article. The so called invention is to protect Israel against the home made rockets of Palestinians in Gaza. Do you believe that Indian military has a similar problem from Pakistan home made missiles. You can defend yourself with a wooden board against the Palestinians home made rockets!!
Rex Minor

Posted by pakistan | Report as abusive

Rex Minor:

The article mentions about protection from missiles launched from Iran. They are not something one can defend using card boards. Go back and read again.

The last line in the article says:

“The joint Israel-U.S. system is designed to give protection against missiles that could be fired at Israel from Iran.”

And they downplay things just so that their enemies do not get excited and start their own reaction. Israelis are very smart people. India will surely need those defense systems and has the money to get the technology. India is already working on one. But why reinvent the wheel? So in the near future, we will be able to get on with our lives without having to worry about Shaheen or Gauri missiles.

Posted by KPSingh01 | Report as abusive

Clever retort FAIL!!! Better luck next time ‘my son’ ;)

Posted by Shuqaib.Bhutto | Report as abusive

Hey Shaquib Bhutto and fifty_cent,

Why don’t you guys keep the trash off this forum? Maintain some level of decency. We don’t need to know your respective pedigrees here.

Posted by KPSingh01 | Report as abusive

Here is another one about the land of milk and honey:

http://www.dawn.com/wps/wcm/connect/dawn -content-library/dawn/news/pakistan/two- brothers-killed-for-alleged-blasphemy-jd -01

It is in their own newspaper. Minorities are getting slaughtered in Pakistan. And they are fighting a jihad for Kashmiris!

Posted by KPSingh01 | Report as abusive

re: missile defense system

Now Pakistanis will start begging uncle Sam to buy them the latest toy next time he takes them for a stroll. Or else, they won’t finish the milk.

Posted by Seth | Report as abusive

Adding more salt to the wound are authors like Myra who never write anything about the wrong doings of Pakistani military or governments.

==

We don’t have to feel that way. But, IMHO, under the title “Pakistan- Now or Never”, the primary theme of this blog is to explain, justify Pakistani aggression against India.

Look at the CIA guy! These are the same guys who sent the 8th fleet to intimidate India when Pakistan army was butchering the Bengalis in 1971. “Champions of freedom and liberty”!

Westerners have propped up Pakistan for 63 years and before, look what they’ve got.

Posted by Seekeroftruth | Report as abusive

Umair,

I admire your wishful thiniking, about Pakistan challenging India on various fronts. The basic difference between India and Pakistan is : India makes the cheapest cars and Pakistan breeds chepaest terrorists.

Posted by manishindia | Report as abusive

@paks,

For those of you hoping to keep terrorism alive as a business model against India and the U.S. taxpayers and those of you military Paks who do not want peace with India, you should know that in the future you are going to become more and more irrelevant.

It is best you war monger Paks move to Somalia.

Posted by G-W | Report as abusive

@KPSingh01
And you believe in the article of an israeli journalist in the zionist newspaper. I do not. I thought that with your knowledge of history you are a bit more selective than relying on the last paragraph including Iran’s name in the equation. Have you not heard of the American Patriot Missile defence system, and have you not heard of the advanced missile defence system of the USA to include Poland bases to defend against Iranian rockets. Come on, do not over estimate the capability of Israeli engineers, the advanced technologies emanate from the USA, Israel is simply the retail shop for indirect sales to selected countries such as India and Turkey for certain material not authorised for general sale. Now do not ask for the source of this info? A simple analysis could give you the same conclusion. You do not need advanced maths for this.
Rex Minor

PS. The article is an attempt to delude the readers of the risk to Israel from Hamas in Gaza and Hisbullah from Lebanon. This comes out when the European Union condemns Israel embargo against Gaza and the death of Turkish citizens by the Israel special forces.

Posted by pakistan | Report as abusive

@G.W
Well said, but sorry I do not mean to be rude, it is India which is becoming irrelevant. The resistance against the occupation is becoming more relevant each day, and you see the effort of the entire world community is to win the hearts and minds of the people, lest they jon hands with the resistance movements throughout the muslim countries.Special funds are being allocaterd to pay to the so called Taliban terrorists and millions of dollars are being allocated for Pakistan, including Hillary’s promise to import sweeter Pakistani mangoes into the USA. This is all a scenario of a soft defeat for the neo conservative think tank clowns( the four star General’s words not mine)of the USA administration.

Rex Minor
PS Somalia is a lost territory, out of bounds for journalists.

Posted by pakistan | Report as abusive

@KPSingh01
What is your intent for providing references to news paper articles, I thought this is the function of Myra Mcdonald to post the article on this blog and open for comments? Have you ever had the time to read some of the news and commentries of the Indian journalists and the Indian newspapers. I did. As a matter of fact I was even interested to purchase a peace of land for sale near the Himalays to build a house for retirement. Well, it was attractive peace but at the same time I read a news headline in the local newspaper of an armed robbery by Sikhs of a highway petrol station. Well, this was the end of my little project. If you take the crime references and the mistreat of minorities as well as the tragic stories of the sufferings of poor Indian public, published in the Indian news papers, you would need several months to provide the references of a single day occurances on this blog. My question is what are you trying to prove. Do not tell me that the land of honey is in the crime stricken Arizona or the sweet broadfway city of new york or even the hollywood city of los angeles, not to forget detroit or frisko, city; the weekend scene in the hospital emergency area, when patients with bullet wounds are delivered. Do you think we are living on the moon. Perhaps you should compare the crime rate of several countries to tell us who are the worst one. Well I will give you a surprise the USA prisons have more foreigners in the Prison than the american citizens. We must all condemn violence and particularly at the state level and that of the military or the Jawans as some of your compatriot calls them,being let loose on civilians.
Rex Minor

Posted by pakistan | Report as abusive

Rex Minor: “And you believe in the article of an israeli journalist in the zionist newspaper. I do not.”

The reference I quoted is in Washington Post. I wonder where you got the information of that being a Zionist, Israeli newspaper.

“I thought that with your knowledge of history you are a bit more selective than relying on the last paragraph including Iran’s name in the equation.”

Iran is a big factor for Israel, much like Pakistan is for India. As soon as Iran gets its nuke weapons, it is going to close its eyes and launch a nuclear bomb using its missile towards Israel. So Israel is preparing itself for that eventual situation. Jews are human too. And they have every right to defend themselves. India has a similar adversary right next door. So if Israel can test out a system that works, there is nothing wrong in India seeking the same system or technology to defend its territories. I don’t understand what is upsetting you here so much.

“Have you not heard of the American Patriot Missile defence system, and have you not heard of the advanced missile defence system of the USA to include Poland bases to defend against Iranian rockets.”

I have heard of all that. The problem is the US controls that system. India has none and is vulnerable. It is always good to have alternatives. Both Israel and India are surrounded by hostile neighbors. Both have fought wars to defend themselves. We have nothing against the Jews or Muslims. We only deal with nations and militant organizations. In that regard, we have a common front.

“Come on, do not over estimate the capability of Israeli engineers, the advanced technologies emanate from the USA, Israel is simply the retail shop for indirect sales to selected countries such as India and Turkey for certain material not authorised for general sale.”

Israel is in a much worse environment than India is. It is surrounded by Arab states which have no regrets about exterminating them and they have defended themselves very well despite the odds of being a small country. US backing is always there, but Israelis use their brains much better than others.

BTW, for your holy war against the Soviets, Israel worked with Egypt on making Russian weapons under US insistence. It was a very odd combination. Israeli made Russian weapons from Egypt found their way to Karachi and were moved up into Afghanistan to fight the Soviets. No Pakistani raised any alarm at that time about having to work with Zionists. Everything is a matter of convinience right?

“Now do not ask for the source of this info? A simple analysis could give you the same conclusion. You do not need advanced maths for this.”

Your analysis is skewed and warped by emotions. That’s all. We do not know how many Umairs are in Pakistan and how many of them are in the military/ISI cartel. They are the real villains. We are concerned about their clouded minds and have to be prepared at all times.

Posted by KPSingh01 | Report as abusive

Rex Minor: “What is your intent for providing references to news paper articles, I thought this is the function of Myra Mcdonald to post the article on this blog and open for comments?”

Where does it say no one should provide references? What if Myra is wrong? I have not seen much balance in her projected views. Neutrality is absent. Therefore we need to make up for it. My reference to “Nuclear Deception” was one of them.

“Have you ever had the time to read some of the news and commentries of the Indian journalists and the Indian newspapers. I did.”

So what exactly is your point? What newspapers did you read? There are thousands of them in India. And they vary from one extreme to another as far as journalism is concerned.

“As a matter of fact I was even interested to purchase a peace of land for sale near the Himalays to build a house for retirement. Well, it was attractive peace but at the same time I read a news headline in the local newspaper of an armed robbery by Sikhs of a highway petrol station. Well, this was the end of my little project.”

I guess you are living somewhere in the West. Based on your logic above, if you get mugged on the street one day, you will leave the country and get back to the land of milk and honey. There is plenty of room for retired people in Swat, Mingora, NWFP, South Waziristan etc. Retired people are having a wonderful time there. Myra even mentioned that it resembled Switzerland and she had more fear in the Indian side of Kashmir. Do ask her and she might give you some nice real estate in those lands where there is nature in its absolute serenity. You can hear the sound of the drones, sunrise accompanied with explosions, screams of women and boys getting raped, evening entertainment where people are stoned to death or have their ligaments cut. What a bargain? Go for it. India is a terrorist nation. Peace lovers like you cannot even go in there.

“If you take the crime references and the mistreat of minorities as well as the tragic stories of the sufferings of poor Indian public, published in the Indian news papers, you would need several months to provide the references of a single day occurances on this blog.”

India unfortunately is not the world’s most developed nation like your Pakistan where no one pays taxes, everything is up for grabs, guns are free, life is colorful with real explosions, hunting parties where Shias and Ahmadis get killed, wow! Can anything top that?

“My question is what are you trying to prove.”

I have the same question for you as well. I see absolutely no sense in your writings. I saw Umair’s grand warning when the diplomatic efforts did not take off well. So I had to bring in something that will reassure my countrymen. You have any problems with that?

“Do not tell me that the land of honey is in the crime stricken Arizona or the sweet broadfway city of new york or even the hollywood city of los angeles, not to forget detroit or frisko, city; the weekend scene in the hospital emergency area, when patients with bullet wounds are delivered. Do you think we are living on the moon. Perhaps you should compare the crime rate of several countries to tell us who are the worst one. Well I will give you a surprise the USA prisons have more foreigners in the Prison than the american citizens. We must all condemn violence and particularly at the state level and that of the military or the Jawans as some of your compatriot calls them,being let loose on civilians.”

What does crime in the US have to do with this discussion? India is not letting military loose on civilians. If people are rioting, pelting stones and are allowing militants to mix in, military has every reason to be there to control the situation. Isn’t it what Pak military is doing in Waziristan? Innocent civilians have been killed there too. Do you want reference? I can provide it for you.

Everything is not golden with Pakistan. The very fact that no effort has been made since its inception to build a nation tells very clearly what went wrong. On top of that, Pakistan has chosen the path of destruction as a means to achieve its goal of power and dominance. Blinded by arrogance and emotions, Pakistani establishment has brought the country to the brink. And its citizens are blaming India, Israel, US etc. That is the point.

Posted by KPSingh01 | Report as abusive

@Rex Minor: “What is your intent for providing references to news paper articles, I thought this is the function of Myra Mcdonald to post the article on this blog and open for comments?”

—Have some sense. Any blogger will welcome a related article. Myra very clearly mentioned in the past to post the related articles and she has commented on them.

Buddy, keep your wings tucked.

Posted by RajeevK | Report as abusive

KPSingh:

I like your writing and admire your contribution.

I have one suggestion: RexMinor says he is not a Pakistani, so let us take that at face value. It is best to tackle his points without comparing with Pakistan unless there is need. Who knows what wandering creature this RexMinor is and what purpose he has on here.

Posted by RajeevK | Report as abusive

@RexMinor/Pakistan,

I hope that you Pakistani’s realize that the Punjabi’s are going to pocket the American cash.

Easy come, easy go. I have faith that one day Pakistani’s will learn what it is like to earn money by working for it, rather than begging and getting free cash.

For now, enjoy the political perceptions that Hillary made for you. It won’t be too long before Islamabad burns through the cash and politicians pocket it and Pakistan’s terrorism budget is refilled to kill Indians.

The rest of the 99% Pakistani’s can keep selling samosa and kebabs on the streets.

No loan money to Pakistan has ever come to fruition. The poor will continue to be poor, illiteracy will continue, lack of energy will remain and terrorism will continue agains the NATO mission and Indians.

All we can say is, “thanks for coming out Hillary”….

Posted by G-W | Report as abusive

RajeevK: “RexMinor says he is not a Pakistani, so let us take that at face value. It is best to tackle his points without comparing with Pakistan unless there is need. Who knows what wandering creature this RexMinor is and what purpose he has on here.”

But right under his name I see “Pakistan.” He is probably an immigrant from Pakistan. He cannot let go of his allegiance to his home country. This is a public forum. If people throw stones at others, they should expect to get pelted in return.

Posted by KPSingh01 | Report as abusive

My two cents:

Possibility one, Rex Minor is a second/third generation of Pakistani immigrant at least. But he will get offended if somebody in Germany called him Pakistani. He is here because he cannot see a Muslim nation getting thrashed left, right and center and of course a foreign power must be behind it. He hates Pakistani establishment and leaders equally not because he has any patriotism for his ex-”nation” per se, he is angry at them for bringing a Muslim nation down. All those fables read to him in madarassa combined with the generalized Indo-Pak bed-time stories from grandpa and uncles are coming to fruition in the form of present day Minor.

Second possibility is pretty straightforward, Pakistan is the arena that promises real action for the aspirants for e-jihadists.

Posted by Seth | Report as abusive

But the better question for the day is, where is Saif_1980? I’d love to read more from the guy with the genuine outlook. Or was it another ID wasted by the threeface?

Posted by Seth | Report as abusive

@”But right under his name I see “Pakistan.” He is probably an immigrant from Pakistan. He cannot let go of his allegiance to his home country”
Posted by KPSingh01

He’s a li’l whacko & I think he made his user ID as “Pakistan” in error & is stuck with it. IMO, he’s a Pashtun living in Europe, probably Germany. Anyways, he seems to be living in a self-conceived alternate reality & I don’t think his comments should be taken seriously by anyone. I, for one enjoy & appreciate the comedic value in them.

Posted by Mortal1 | Report as abusive

> I think he made his user ID as “Pakistan” in error & is stuck with it.

He probably doesn’t know it’s a simple matter of clearing his browser cookies for the Reuters site and signing up afresh under another name :-).

Regards,
Ganesh Prasad

Posted by prasadgc | Report as abusive

@prasadgc

Now you don’t be putting ideas in his head. One guy, suffering from severe multiple personality crisis is enough for this place :)

Posted by Mortal1 | Report as abusive

@Indian Crowd
Now you guys are unkind. First of all you raise a question and when the reply comes, you want to make fun of the reply. You guys are too clever with a set mind and have no longer the ability to expand your understanding of other’s opinions.
Stay in your world if this keeps you happy.
Rex Minor

Posted by pakistan | Report as abusive

ability to expand your understanding of other’s opinions.

==
Says who again?????!!

that’s even funnier than his previous minor posts.

Posted by Seekeroftruth | Report as abusive

Mr. Minor,

I have a question for you. Out of sheer curiosity, I just googled your name & discovered your comments (under the same ID) to be floating around the web in about half a dozen Pakistani blogs (Pakistan policy blog, Pakistan teahouse, Pakistan defence forum etc). As someone, who claims that he’s not Pakistani & has no links to the region, why are you so very interested in Pakistan?

Posted by Mortal1 | Report as abusive

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