Pakistan: Now or Never?
Perspectives on Pakistan
Helping Pakistan; not if, but how
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Outside President Asif Ali Zardari’s political rally in Birmingham last weekend, I chatted to a middle-aged woman passing by about the floods in Pakistan. “I have every sympathy for Pakistan and the Pakistanis, but he is not helping them much, is he?” she said. Another woman asked me to explain why it was that the protesters were not focused on the floods but demonstrating “about all sorts”. Inside the rally, a young British Pakistani who had recently returned from a visit to his family home in Kashmir complained about negative stereotyping in the media of Pakistan that had reduced a country of some 170 million people to “a terrorist threat”.
If there is a common thread to the relatively slow western response to one of the worst catastrophes in Pakistan’s history, it is a sense of confusion, not about whether to help, but how to help. That, and the dehumanising impact of stereotypes - corrupt politicians, angry bearded protesters, suicide bombers to name but a few – that obscure the impact of the floods on the very real people – 14 million of them - affected by the disaster.
In the short term, the weak civilian government has been slammed for failing to come up with a clear plan to address the immediate needs of those hit by the floods. Nor has it provided the leadership that might rally all institutions and people behind it. The result has been that the Pakistan Army, long the country’s most efficient and effective national institution, has stepped in to fill the void, leading efforts to rescue flood victims. Meanwhile, as Pakistani politicians squabbled amongst themselves and flew into disaster-hit areas with an eye for photo-ops, and as Zardari travelled abroad to France and Britain, the banned Jamaat-ud-Dawa – the humanitarian wing of the Lashkar-e-Taiba militant group - quietly moved in to help, as it did in the 2005 earthquake in Kashmir.
The United States, along with other countries, has been ratcheting up its aid efforts, offering financial assistance totallling $76 million and sending military helicopters for relief and rescue operations. However, I can’t help but feel a bit uneasy when this is presented in terms of vying for influence with Islamist charities like the Jamaat ud-Dawa. This may be partially true, but it is also part of the same dehumanising process, as though the flood victims are no more than “hearts and minds” to be won over, rather than people facing death from hunger and disease. International and Pakistani NGOs are doing what they can – although for those who want to help, it can be hard for outsiders to work out which charity best deserves donations (inside Pakistan, the Edhi Foundation is widely respected.)
But if understanding how to alleviate the short-term crisis is hard enough, the question of how to help Pakistan in the long term is even more perplexing. The damage to its fragile economy is likely to be felt not just this year – the World Bank says $1 billion in crops have been lost - but in grain sowings for food supplies in the future. The impact on society in a country already struggling to find its feet in a battle against Islamist militancy is yet to be fully understood, although popular anger against the government over its response to the floods does not bode well. Add to that the disorientating impact of climate change – and scientists are still arguing about how much the floods in Pakistan and drought in Russia are due to global warming – and the need to bolster Pakistan’s defences in the future against water crises (both shortage and excess) and you have a reconstruction challenge which would defy even the strongest of governments.
At a crude level, Pakistan needs better water management, better irrigation and a reversal of the deforestation which has been widely blamed for exacerbating the flooding. Deforestation has a double impact. Firstly there is nothing to slow flood waters and mudslides. Secondly, it contributes to soil erosion, silting up river waters so that dams and levees downstream are even less able to contain the impact of unusually heavy monsoon rains. Pakistan’s forests have been ravaged by an illegal timber mafia, often working in league with corrupt local politicians. Reversing that process is both an obvious need and - as with so many obvious needs in Pakistan - a political nightmare.
The economy itself might actually tick up slightly. Natural disasters are often followed by a reconstruction boom. But reconstruction which does not take account of the need for sustainable development would leave Pakistan exposed to more natural disasters in the future, particularly if uneven monsoons combine with faster melting of the Himalayan glaciers which feed its rivers. Reconstruction which exacerbates income disparities and feeds corruption will tug even harder at the country’s fragile social fabric.
And that brings us to the question of who is going to manage the reconstruction and the inflow of foreign aid. In an editorial in Dawn newspaper, Cyril Almeida worries that financial rescue from the west may be even worse than the original problem if it encourages a desire – particularly among Pakistan’s overseas backers – for a return to the apparent efficiency of military rule.
There is no real hint of that right now – the army has shown no interest in taking over the running of the country as long as it can control foreign and security policy from behind the scenes. It benefits from having a civilian face supporting it in what is effectively a civil war against Pakistani Taliban militants. It needs civilian institutions to try to fill the gap with administration and services after it clears areas of Taliban control. And for Pakistan as a whole, the benefits of democracy and its ability to devolve power to the provinces are often presented as a better way of keeping the country together than through military rule, which tends to revolve around a centralising authority. Most reckon that an end to civilian democracy would be a disaster for the country in the long term.
Yet the cycle of civilian-military rule forms a familiar pattern in Pakistan. People are usually glad to see military dictators go, and yet after a period of unsuccessful civilian rule, many welcome the army back with relief – as happened when former president Pervez Musharraf seized power in a coup in 1999. In his early years in power, he appeared to hold out great promise of reform although this dissipated over time.
“1999-2002 wasn’t very long ago,” writes Almeida. “Many remember it fondly, for its attention and commitment to reform. Why green-light another bailout for a tried-and-failed lot that will just kick the reform ball down the road again? Why not just fold and walk away from a swaggering Zardari? Zardari may be too arrogant to care about the media response here, but the scorn heaped on him by the western media will have send chills down the spines of his smarter (!) advisers. They know the West’s demand for reform is greater than its love for democracy here.”
In a reversal of the “do more” mantra repeated to Pakistan by the west looking for greater action against Islamist militants, Pakistan is asking foreign countries to “do more” to help it cope with the floods. But the question is not really whether western countries will help – they have too much at stake, from a war going badly in neighbouring Afghanistan to concerns about instability in nuclear-armed Pakistan, to refuse. The question is how.
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Already on the brink, these floods have pushed Pakistan further down the slide. Even if foreign aid pours through, it may not be adequate to put things back. Pakistan does not have the infrastructure to rebuild itself. It does not have experienced people to govern and manage its available resources. There is only the military which has some kind of organizational and administrative structure. But a military is meant for defending a country and not for running it. It might cost billions of dollars to bring life back to normal in the devastated areas, already plagued by militancy. There is no guarantee that this calamity might not repeat itself soon. Following the floods, disease and draught would follow. The world economy has not recovered and many countries might have their own financial priorities. They have come to Pakistan only for war time needs. Now that they are withdrawing from such missions, they might want to save up their money for their own rebuilding. US is going to slash its defense budget. Thousands of employees in the defense sector are going to be laid off. US is facing a huge budget deficit. The same with European economy. This means, their allocation for helping Pakistan recover will be much lesser than it has been in the past.
With prices skyrocketing and available food supplies meagre, Pakistan will face a huge challenge in the coming year. It will not have enough money to run proxy war missions as its financial usage through foreign aid will be controlled and monitored by the donors in a more stringent way. Pakistan will need to drop all its regional activities and focus on recovery. I sincerely wish they use this occasion to change themselves and start on a clean slate.
The estimated monetary damage from the floods, so far, is app. $14 bn (and expected to rise), while the total contribution from the world (Govts & private charities) has been less than $500 mn (rough estimate). The world community’s response (or lack, thereof) to Pakistan’s flood crisis, is a barmometer, as to how much the stock of that country has fallen in the eyes of world. As unfair as it is, to the flood victims & Pakistanis in general, the blame lies with Pakistan’s military establishment, whose self-destructive policies have radicalized that nation, transformed it into a terror haven & tarnished it’s image in front of the world. With a second wave of floods expected soon & water borne deseases, already starting to spread, Pakistan needs all the help it can get. I’m afraid, the damage from these floods will be too big for Pakistan to overcome and inept governance will lead to further chaos & radicalization of the country. If there was any doubt about Pakistan’s collapse before this calamity, unfortunately, now there certainly isn’t.
Pakistan is a resilient country capable of overcoming such crises, be it the earthquake in 2005 or the fight against militants. And just like before, this time too Pakistani armed forces are at the forefront of relief and rescue operations. Pakistan Navy is distributing relief goods through helicopters, similarly Pakistan Air Force transport C-130 squadrons are mobilized, and the Pakistan Army is fully engaged in rescue operations with medical teams deployed around affected areas. Everyone is doing whatever is possible, In cities like Islamabad Rawalpindi Lahore Karachi flood relief camps are established, donations are being made, once again the Army is collecting donations through branches of Askari Bank across Pakistan.
While this is a national calamity, i still think Pakistanis must help themselves. Reject aid from India, if wealthy Pakistani diaspora, business community inside Pakistan and people in general pull themselves together, this can be handled. Eventually, the people are resilient, the country is capable of turning around this huge problem into an opportunity to rebuild and get back to work.
My dear Pakistanis it is a bittersweet independence day. bitter, because so many people suffer and sweet because our independence day will always be sweet. Even if we perish in the floods and wars of today, we are comforted knowing our Pakistan lives on.
As you can see from the tone of the posts above, our enemies once again are salivating at the thought of our imminent demise. Let us ONCE AGAIN, prove to them our resilience. Come hell or high water, earthquakes or invasions, let us once again rise from the ashes much to the dismay of our detractors. (inch’allah)
Just as the British gave us a boundary they considered ‘indefensible’, just as our neighbor predicted ‘we would come crawling back’, just as Krushchev promised to annihilate us, just as the devastating earthquake destroyed our infrastructure (to the glee and joy of our enemies), let us now work to recover from this tragedy.
If you have 10 rupees, give 5 to someone that needs it even more than you. Displaced people are fasting. Some for spiritual reasons, others because they have no choice. Let us celebrate our independence by helping the needy.
Happy Independence Day to my countrymen.
Pakistan ZINDABAD.
The spirit of Pakistan.
http://www.dawn.com/wps/wcm/connect/dawn -content-library/dawn/news/media-gallery /17-Spirit%20on%20the%20streets-ek-02?p ageDesign=new_MediaGallery_extarnallink1 -12
@Fellow bloggers,
Everybody, including all Indians, please donate with a big heart to the Pakistani’s suffering from the flood disaster. It is the right thing to do.
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@Singh, mortal
Unfortunately, as people are displaced and getting hungry, so will their anger against the Government and the Pak Army.
Many analysts believe currently that this flood has the potential of the makings of a civil war in making. As anger mounts, more will gravitate to militantism as it is anticipated that the militants are looking to capitalize and recruit more disenfranchised and angry people.
What keeps me in a state of shell shock is that Pakistan continues to spend billions on nukes, while its people eat grass and do not have fresh water to drink.
Eventually people are going to have reached the limits of their patience and when enough people become upset and angry, they start to wakeup, you cannot politically tilt the balance without enforcing draconian measures and that is the time when you have the makings of a civil war.
Anyways, the poor Pakistani people continue to suffer, tell all your Indian friends to please donate and save human lives.
Young Pakistanis answer to Mortal and KP:
http://tinyurl.com/252p9tz
Usman
Just as Richard armitage threatened to bomb us back to stone age. Together we will rebuild our way back to normal life and overcome the floods.
Happy Independence Day. Pakistan Zindabad
“Young Pakistanis answer to Mortal and KP:
http://tinyurl.com/252p9”
good luck with collecting the $14 billion needed.
“If you have 10 rupees, give 5 to someone that needs it even more than you.”
good message but hard to resonate in a country where people barely pay any taxes, let alone share their wealth with others and where the rich keep most of their money aboroad in foreign bank accounts.
Happy independence day to our friends in Pakistan, and best wishes for your efforts in battling the terrible effects of the floods.
To fellow Indians, it is very churlish and unseemly to make negative and disparaging remarks at a time of human tragedy. If you cannot contribute or do something to help, please stay silent. There will be other times to raise points and argue issues. Now is the time to support fellow human beings in need.
To Pakistanis, I would say please learn to distinguish between anger and hatred. Not many Indians hate Pakistan or want to see it destroyed, merely to see it adopt a less aggressive posture and be a friendlier neighbour. There is a lot of anger in India about terror attacks from Pakistani soil aided by the military establishment. This anger has temporarily clouded the attitudes of many Indians towards the flood victims. Indeed, throughout the world, Pakistan has suffered a loss of image which has translated into an unwillingness on the part of people to help. This is as big a tragedy as the floods themselves. In any case, anger at terrorism should not be mistaken for hatred of the country and a wish for its demise.
I hope we all find ourselves in a better place in 2011. Best wishes once again.
Regards,
Ganesh Prasad
Black_Sabbath3 and alike,
you guys are really slime of the earth. It’s people like you, with black hearts, make me hate Indians. I hope Pakistani govt tells Indians to take those $5m and shove it where moon don’t shine.
I am and many others are actively donating a decent sum to flood victims on weekly basis. God willingly we will overcome because we have a big task in front of us, that is to keep helping kashmir insurgency and help China to balkanize India.
Happy Independence day to all Pakistanis
Take it easy, babag. A lot of the hate speech on both sides is just posturing. Strong emotions are a sign that we care. Apathy is what we need to watch out for.
This is a video I just saw: http://bit.ly/sYqO8
Watch it to the end. I suspect lots of people are like this – taking hardline positions just for effect but actually quite reasonable on a personal basis.
Once again, best wishes to the people of Pakistan for a rapid recovery from the crisis.
Regards,
Ganesh Prasad
babag,
this is why u guys are a failed people & a failed country. You get riled up & become belligerent jerk-offs for no apparent reason. May i ask, what the f*u*c*k did i say that raised the blood level in your a*s*s*hole & prompted you to commit verbal diarrhea here?
Was I wrong to say “good luck with collecting $14 billion” OR did I lie when I mentioned the low tax collection rate of your country & the foreign bank accounts of your rich? I guess, you’re not actually mad at me but with the reality facing your country.
It seems to me that merely mentioning facts & the truth is offensive to pakistanis here, as long as it comes from indians or people of indian origin. Many pakistani intellectuals & journalists are mentioning the same things which mortal, kpsingh etc have mentioned above but if those observations & remarks come from the indian ‘enemies’, pakistanis find them offensive & derogatory.
Even in this disaster time the Pakistani foreign minister had time to raise Kashmere issue with India. At least be gracious to accept the donation by Indians. I do feel sorry for the peoples but not for their politicians and army. These entities are ungrateful and they shit where they eat. Only glue that keeps the country together is hate rate for India. There terror activities and duplicity will continue. They have perfect art of begging and shaking westerner for the money.
“and help China to balkanize India.” Posted by babag
one would think that at least now pakistanis like u would have realized the worth of your country in china’s eyes after the pittance it has thrown your way in the form of aid for the flood crisis but I guess, not. After all, ‘old habits die hard’.
Ganesh:
That video is sweet!
China is struggling with it’s own flood disaster. I don’t expect much aid to come from China in terms of material. If we are talking about monetary aid, Chinese policy seems to be to keep the money out of the hands of the Pakistani zamindars.
Even that ghastly TTP thinks that monetary aid to Pakistan will be used to enrich politicians.
India is best positioned for helping Pakistan, but Zardari would rather go on a Eurotrip then do the obvious.
Incidentally, the rich and fabulous of Pakistan have amassed enough wealth to substantially help out Pakistan on their own. This includes the Pak govs own Mr. 10% Zardari and their fabulous foreign minister. It’s not difficult to imagine why Zardari has manage to garner so little sympathy and aid.
Does anyone from Pakistan know the true cost of Mr. Zardari’s trip to the UK. Does anyone know how much the Govt. paid for the Suites they stayed in as well as they cost of travelling back and forth. If not look it up. You will be shocked at such callous expenditure at this time of need. Heard of Nero fiddling while Rome burned. This is more like Zardari fiddling while Pakistan drowns.
Pakistan must reject India’s aid offer, if mobilized Pakistan’s own business community can easily help the needy people in distress.
Ganesh, you truly have a good heart. but read the joy and pleasure in the comments of your countrymen. you will find that you are a statistical outlier.
Read the posts here; Do Pakistanis celebrate when thousands of Indians die? Do Pakistanis set off firecrackers when Pakistan lose the world cup against a third party (1999)?
You keep mentioning Mumbai. A grisly tragedy indeed. But what about the ongoing tragedy in Kashmir? More than 500 Mumbais have been inflicted on Kashmiris not by rogues but the armed forces of your democratic govt.
And don’t give me that ISI-staged protest bullsh_t. 50 year old women and 7 year old children throwing rocks at your brutal forces cannot be motivated by pakistan.
The comments from indians here are disgusting. Don’t cry when they inspire someone to show up on your door and f_ck you cowards up.
peace.
one would think that at least now pakistanis like u would have realized the worth of your country in china’s eyes after the pittance it has thrown your way in the form of aid for the flood crisis but I guess, not. After all, ‘old habits die hard’
– epic fool, they have given much more than 1.5 million. your problem is you seek evidence that supports your predetermined conclusions.
Happy Independence day to all Pakistanis!
I sincerely pray that your country comes out of the current crisis and builds a new Pakistan – a nation that is focused on education, modernity, industrial infrastructure, exports and overall well being of all citizens.
Pakistan is at the cross roads today. A big decision has to be made which way the country must go. It cannot live the way it did until now. What you see today is a clear picture of how the world views Pakistan. One can tell by the way the world has responded to Pakistan’s flood situation. That is why it is very important to work sincerely and honestly to bring your nation up as a real nation. That will bring in all the respect automatically. Until now, your country has been misled by the short lived luxuries brought in by cold war allegiances. It was just a fee for service. Once the fee got consumed, there is nothing left. Income has to be steady and expenses have to be managed. Your leaders (military and civilian) have lived off foreign dole and have become used to it.
Today somehow, take a pledge that for the next few decades you will focus on building your nation and nothing else. India really is not an enemy. Today give up that unnecessary paranoia and focus on your nation. India knows how wasteful it is to set up and sustain conflicts. It has moved on in a different direction since 1991. Today is Pakistan’s chance to do the same. Just start on a clean slate. Until you become an economic power, no one will care what Pakistan’s views are. Using terrorism and blackmail to make gains will make things only worse for your country.
An economically powerful Pakistan will be able to influence a lot more on issues like Kashmir. Make India and Pakistan interdependent on each other for business and trade. Diplomacy will automatically resolve issues like Kashmir. Guns will not.
Use this crisis to build a new Pakistan. My best wishes!
It seems to me that merely mentioning facts & the truth is offensive to pakistanis here, as long as it comes from indians or people of indian origin.
>>> Do you see any other nationalities posting their schadenfreude except indians? Ponder that one my noble chimp.
Diplomacy will automatically resolve issues like Kashmir. Guns will not.
>>> Who has the guns and who has the pebbles in kashmir? why don’t you give this lecture to yourself.
If the relationship between India and Pakistan was one of trust like that between the US and Canada or between Australia and New Zealand, by now we would have seen the Indian Air Force flying sorties across the border dropping much-needed supplies, and Indian doctors and nurses would have been out in force to stamp out the risk of cholera. Isn’t it sad that a basic lack of trust makes such a scenario impossible?
The more I look at our unfortunate region, the more I see wasted opportunities.
Regards,
Ganesh
mirusmtupsha said:
> You keep mentioning Mumbai. A grisly tragedy indeed. But what about the ongoing tragedy in Kashmir? More than 500 Mumbais have been inflicted on Kashmiris not by rogues but the armed forces of your democratic govt.
> And don’t give me that ISI-staged protest bullsh_t. 50 year old women and 7 year old children throwing rocks at your brutal forces cannot be motivated by pakistan.
There’s no denying that something more is going on than Pakistan-sponsored agitation. But please look beyond the stereotypes when you talk about the Indian response. Many ordinary Indians are raising questions about what their government is doing in Kashmir, because with all its faults, India is a true democracy. This is what gives me hope that the grievances of the Kashmiri people will be heard and addressed. (This should include the Kashmiri Pundits who were ethnically cleansed by terrorists.)
This article was written by an Indian journalist:
http://bit.ly/dsPlvM
I did raise this on this forum:
http://bit.ly/aHoGfO
I guess the moral of the story is that if we engage with each other, we can bring moral pressure on governments to do the right thing. If we only indulge in finger-pointing and cheap point-scoring, we only provoke defensiveness in other people and make no progress in the conversation.
Regards,
Ganesh Prasad
> And don’t give me that ISI-staged protest bullsh_t. 50 year old women and 7 year old children throwing rocks at your brutal forces cannot be motivated by pakistan.
No way, of course these two are not motivatead by ISI. It was that 7-yr old’s father and uncles and that 50 yr old’s sons who were probably motivated by ISI-backed agenda of bleeding India through thousand cuts, lost their lives in unlawful activities (or may be died due to access by Indian military, but motivated through ISI-sponsered insurgency nonetheless) and that is why these two are pi*s*sed off at Indian forces. Both persons are not in age of reason, even more so when they have been thus traumatized.
mirusmtupsha,
Let’s discuss Kashmir in a spirit of openness, conceding points where the other person has a valid argument and constructively confronting when one has a strong argument.
If Kashmiris in Indian-held Kashmir were agitating of their own accord to join Pakistan, then the only conversation would be around what to do with the other Kashmiri minorities like Hindus, Sikhs and Buddhists who presumably would not want to join Pakistan.
But since we have received ample evidence that Kashmiris do not want to join either India or Pakistan but desire a separate nation for themselves, the question is what about Pakistan-held Kashmir? “Kashmir banega Pakistan” is then not the answer to Indian occupation/oppression, because the Kashmiris would then merely be exchanging one occupier for another. Would Pakistanis be truly willing to give up *their* portion of Kashmir in order to accommodate the wishes of the Kashmiris?
These conversations are difficult, but they are the ones I hope we can have on this forum. It requires us to drop our defensiveness (as I have tried to do) and speak freely, yet without resorting to overly negative criticisms of the other side.
I invite you to address not only the sins of India but all aspects of the issue. Genuine candour will definitely be reciprocated.
Regards,
Ganesh Prasad
“Do Pakistanis celebrate when thousands of Indians die? Do Pakistanis set off firecrackers when Pakistan lose the world cup against a third party?”
Poor try, you are implying as if Indians celebrate at the natural disasters in Pak.
As for matches, you should have come up with something less obvious. Must also mention that there were many like you who thought (and expressed through various mediums) that “boyz did a good job” after Mumbai terror attacks.
Another tragedy, besides the floods is the sorry state of India-Pakistan relations. India could’ve done a lot to alleviate some of Pakistan’s pain. Not so much monetarily but a lot more with assistance in rescue & relief operations and the rebuilding efforts, thereafter.
@Ganesh Ji (pls don’t mind, don’t wanna address you without Ji)
“If the relationship between India and Pakistan was one of trust like that between the US and Canada or between Australia and New Zealand, by now we would have seen the Indian Air Force flying sorties across the border dropping much-needed supplies, ”
You are trying to clap with one hand.
I’d be VERY KEEN to learn from you what we Indians have done to break the trust of Pakistanis. If possible, please list the Indian actions in bulleted points that YOU think are the reasons behind this lack of trust from their side.
Over to you, if you may please!
The other difficult conversation is around stone-throwing. While bullets for stones seems like an over-reaction, one cannot argue that stone-throwing constitutes a “peaceful protest”. If Gandhi had thrown stones at the British, the history of the subcontinent may have been quite different.
If Indian forces fired upon a truly peaceful protest, then it would be an unquestionable outrage. But when they are attacked by stones, that moral argument is weakened.
As I see it, there are two issues here:
1. Violence in support of an aspiration to freedom: The Kashmiris may have a genuine case, but by resorting to violence (i.e., stone-throwing) and by having terrorists fight their cause for them, they have undeniably lost sympathy. This only delays the achievement of their goal.
2. Human rights violations in support of territorial integrity: India may have a bunch of legal arguments to justify the accession of Kashmir, but nothing justifies the torture of a people, and I am one of the first to concede that such violations have quite probably taken place. I fear for India here, because history has never been kind to oppressors.
There’s definitely something to discuss here, because the situation is not black-and-white. The participants just have to have the intellectual honesty to acknowledge points when a strong case is made.
Regards,
Ganesh Prasad
Since Reuters India is not as active as this one, I think I must post the message here.
Happy Independence Day to fellow Indians on this blog! I salute and congratulate every Indian on the anniversary of our political freedom. No matter how small our individual contribution may be, together we make a beautiful colorful painting of our motherland. Let us continue to march together on the path of progress, prosperity and peace.
JAI HIND!!
Poor try, you are implying as if Indians celebrate at the natural disasters in Pak.
>> read the comments here. what do you think is happening in the posts here?
@mirusmtupsha
Please, for a change, read all the posts carefully and calmly and remember to take deep breaths in-between.
In the third comment in this article, you already declared that Indians are salivating at Pakistan’s demise even when there were just two comments posted above yours. The way I read it, those two posters are merely trying to analyze the impact on Pakistan’s economy and society. It does not mean that they are rejoicing at it.
One of the posters even “sincerely wished” your country recovery in the very same post that you are complaining about. Second poster was asking everyone to promptly donate for the flood reliefs. How can you ignore all that and derive the conclusion that Indians want destruction of Pakistan?
We, Indians, would be plain stu_pid if we let Pakistan slip into more chaos. A free-fall of Pakistan as a nation would create migraines of nth degree for India and world. A tiny part of radicalized society is already become a pain in the neck for us, we don’t want anymore poor Kasabs in Pakistan who have no future to look forward to and can easily be bought as suicide bombers.
For what its worth, I most sincerely want every Pakistani and Indian to have a decent level of prosperity, preferably a house even on mortgage. Only ultra-poor and ultra-rich can afford to indulge in senseless fights, common men are more interested in raising a family and having a good life.
Peace out.
LAHORE, Aug 14:
Pakistan should move away from the zero-sum security rivalry with India to be able to emerge as a successful, modern democratic society, says a distinguished American foreign policy expert.
“It is vital for Pakistan to shift its strategic focus from a dead-end losing competition with India to a developmental competition,” Prof Walter Russel Mead emphasised in an interview with Dawn during his recent visit to Lahore.
Pakistan can become an economically strong country if it realises the uselessness of confrontation with India, he said and held that Pakistan’s policy of confrontation with India means that it has given a veto power over its domestic and foreign policy to New Delhi.
Prof Mead is a former Henry Kissinger senior fellow for United States foreign policy at the Council on Foreign Relations and author of a number of books. He was in Pakistan for two weeks to participate in the US embassy’s programme of international speakers. During his visit, he spent a lot of time with students and teachers from different universities, journalists, military officials, analysts and others.
According to him, Pakistan’s struggle against India is also stopping its security establishment from completely severing its ties with extremist groups. “If you give up your relationship with these groups,” he argued, “the whole policy of confrontation with India becomes much more difficult to sustain.”
He did not agree with the theory that the relationship between Pakistan and India could not improve without a solution to Kashmir. “To some degree it is a question for Pakistan to ask itself. To say that without a resolution to the Kashmir issue Pakistan cannot prosper is to say that India has a veto power over the future of Pakistan, that India must give permission before Pakistan can launch its projects of development.
And I think Pakistan for its own sake needs to assume sovereignty over its future,” Prof Mead underlined. “Pakistan might see a creative new direction for itself if it could see the issue and assume sovereignty over its domestic and foreign policy.”
“I think militarization of Pakistan’s development over the last 60 years is the core,” he continued. “The distortion of development priorities that comes from enormous military burden and uneven struggle against a much bigger neighbour means that Pakistan’s development is slower than that could be otherwise. It has not affected India due to its size. The questionable groups are used as a balancing weapon just to discover that these balancing groups exacerbate internal problems. Violence makes peaceful development much harder. Cost of confrontation for Pakistan keeps rising.”
http://www.dawn.com/wps/wcm/connect/dawn -content-library/dawn/the-newspaper/loca l/lahore/india-enjoys-veto-power-over-pa kistans-progress-580
Since Reuters India is not as active as this one, I think I must post the message here.
>>>> really? that is strange. are there not a bunch of pakistanis commenting, obsessing, insulting indians on Reuters India?? hmm.. that is most strange indeed. you would think ‘evil’, ‘jealous’ pakistanis would be doing that kind of thing all the time unlike ‘noble’, ‘indifferent-to-pakistan’ indians.
Happy Independence Day to fellow Indians on this blog! I salute and congratulate every Indian on the anniversary of our political freedom. No matter how small our individual contribution may be, together we make a beautiful colorful painting of our motherland. Let us continue to march together on the path of progress, prosperity and peace.
JAI HIND!!
@Ganesh only,
If Gandhi had thrown stones at the British, the history of the subcontinent may have been quite different.
>>> History would’ve been different if Hitler hadn’t blitzed the hell out of London.
If Indian forces fired upon a truly peaceful protest, then it would be an unquestionable outrage.
>>> Ganesh, this has also happened. Peaceful protests have been laathi-charged, public gathering have been contested with curfews and in some cases peaceful protests have been shot. Have they not earned the right to throw stones at a brutal occupation force per AI, HRW.
But when they are attacked by stones, that moral argument is weakened.
>>> Ganesh, have you heard of rubber bullets? how about water canons? how about shooting below the knees, why perfect head shots? There is one soldier per 5 citizens, is your great, superpower army not able to handle children?
As I see it, there are two issues here:
1. Violence in support of an aspiration to freedom: The Kashmiris may have a genuine case, but by resorting to violence (i.e., stone-throwing) and by having terrorists fight their cause for them, they have undeniably lost sympathy. This only delays the achievement of their goal.
>>>> They fell for Nehru’s promises, they were cheated. They tried to do things peacefully, they tried to protest, boycott, hartals etc.. India did nothing.
2. Human rights violations in support of territorial integrity: India may have a bunch of legal arguments to justify the accession of Kashmir
>>>> India is in the amazing position of always being right in every matter of territory: this includes – junagadh, hyderabad, forward policy, kashmir, goa, sikim, nepali enclaves, bangladeshi enclaves, minicoy, siachen, sir creek?
Is this not the most amazing perfect record?
, but nothing justifies the torture of a people, and I am one of the first to concede that such violations have quite probably taken place.
>>>> read AI and HRW to confirm your suspicions.
I fear for India here, because history has never been kind to oppressors.
There’s definitely something to discuss here, because the situation is not black-and-white. The participants just have to have the intellectual honesty to acknowledge points when a strong case is made.
>>>> I believe i have some excellent points. but i am biased
@mirusmtupsha
“>>>> really? that is strange. are there not a bunch of pakistanis commenting, obsessing, insulting indians on Reuters India?? hmm.. that is most strange indeed. you would think ‘evil’, ‘jealous’ pakistanis would be doing that kind of thing all the time unlike ‘noble’, ‘indifferent-to-pakistan’ indians.”
Not so fast, Chichchha Usman! Last I checked, some of Pakistanis were doing India-bashing with dedicated blogs instead! For example your own site, the word “India” occurs 22,384 times while the word “Pakistan” occurs only 21044 times. Now tell who is obsessed with whom.
Anyways, what kind of pheromones you are spraying on your ho_les these days? Looks like every Tom’s dic_k hurries towards them these days. Take my words, fight your government for price-inflation first, for prices of amla oil must have soared in your cu*n_try like everything else.
Now the non-serious answer – the blog writers on that section are perhaps lethargic or may be the topics they have to write on are as vast as India’s diversity hence we get mundane articles there which fails to draw attention of people. Secondly, and more importantly, the quality of writers on that blog is inferior to people in other site such as HT.
But I know perfectly well where that little whining sound is coming from your motor. Well, not everybody has time to create their own blogs.
ciao
PS: Isn’t it fantastic how many things one could learn by just mopping floors at Microsofts?
Indians are discussing aid to Pakistan and Pakistanis are discussing….Kashmir.
The situation is getting worse with every passing day. No one is helping; its true because I have been observing this from the past few days. Those who have accumulated large quantities of wealth pay no tax and talk rubbish about the government; they have no right to do it because if only they pay their share of taxes, the situation can be changed.
@Mirusmtupsha,
Do you want peace with India? Do you want freedom for Kashmiri’s?
Then go ahead and give Kashmiri’s Azadi…get the fxxk out of Pakistan occupied Kashmir?
Any Pakistani’s want to answer that one? I don’t think so..not even Journalists have dared takling that hard question, they always cherry pick the easy things to discuss.
there is no reason that India cannot reciprocate in kind and let the Kashmiri’s decide whether they want to be occupied by a foreign country or govern themselves independent of Islamabad or Delhi.
Let’s start talks of fairness and Pakistan’s role in stealing territory from Kashmiri’s and calling it all their own and that is the same plan for Indian Kashmir, to steal the land for the Sunni’s, isn’t it?…well that is not going to happen, India is bound to stay on Indian Kashmir, as long as Pakistan stays on Pakistan occupied Kashmir.
Unfortunately, Pakistan has forced the Indian security situation to deteriorate since 1980′s the Paks started to send terrorists into Kashmir, which prompted the large Indian footprint in Indian Kashmir and the subsequent subjugation of Indian Kashmiri’s, during the same time which Pakistan has kept a sustained effort to use the Kashmiri cause to further the goals of its own assymetrical warfare against India and the poor Kashmiri’s are caught in the middle.
Pakistan has left the Kashmiri’s stuck in the middle of all of this mess, only Pakistan’s withdrawal from Terrorism and complete withdrawal from PoK and subsequent complete Indian withdrawal will prevent further trouble for the Kashmiri’s.
Pakistan is the root cause for the misery for Kashmiri’s.
India has duty to provide security for its citizens and through agitation and polarization of the local Kashmiri population in India, Pakistan has tried to capitalize politically negative campaign against India, fully well knowing that sending terrorists into India Kashmir will prompt the Indian army to go there and subsequently hoping that political opinions will turn against India, but that is not going to work.
I ask you Pakistani’s would it not have been better for Kashmiri’s that Pakistan had of stayed out of Kashmir and asked India to do the same and ask for a plebescite at that time?
OH…BTW the west is fully aware of how Pakistan forces all Pakistan Occupied Kashmir politicians to swear allegiance to Pakistan as a compulsory precursor to running in PoK politics.
All of the lying and double games are coming out. The internet is revealing all of the little lies one at a time, wikileaks and many more are to come.
@”Those who have accumulated large quantities of wealth pay no tax and talk rubbish about the government; they have no right to do it because if only they pay their share of taxes, the situation can be changed”
Posted by SZaman88
That’s a great point. Tax revenue is the life-line of every economy. Pakistan’s tax structure is largely favorable to it’s rich & elite. It’s a system for the elite & by the elite, whereby there are no taxes on agricultural income (a big chunk of Pakistan’s economy & earned by the powerful elite) and various luxury items. Not surprisingly, Pakistan’s tax revenue collection rate is one of the lowest in the world (app. 10%). Pakistan’s economy will be hard to revive until the unfair tax structure is changed & the rich start coughing up their share.
Once again, I’d like to appeal to everyone, please donate for the flood victims. This grave calamity has affected 20 million people so far & a majority of them are children. If timely help is not provided, many of those innocent souls could fall terminally ill & perish with diseases. If you have given already, do so again, this time for the children:
http://www.supportunicef.org/site/pp.asp ?c=9fLEJSOALpE&b=6161181
Also, please encourage everyone you know, to do so, irrespective of their religion, race, creed or nationality.
Mortal
I just donated towards UNICEF’s flood relief efforts for kids in Pakistan.
Thanks for your consistent reminders.
Chak de!
(somehow my previous account not working)
This is the time to win hearts and minds for Pakistani people. I once again appeal to everyone to donate for our Pakistani friends in this terrible situation.
Regards,
Ganesh Prasad
Read these comments. This is what the world thinks about donating to the flood victims in pakistan:
http://world-news.newsvine.com/_news/201 0/08/16/4902059-flood-victim-pakistan-tr eating-us-like-dogs