Pakistan-India; a $5 million downpayment on a peace initiative

August 23, 2010

tentsHistorical parallels can be misleading, so I am a little bit wary of reading too much into a comparison between the devastating cyclone which hit then East Pakistan in 1970 and the current floods in Pakistan. But on the surface the similarities are there.

In 1970, the Pakistani government was criticised for not doing enough to help the victims of the Bhola cyclone, exacerbating tensions between the western and eastern wings of the country ahead of a civil war in which East Pakistan broke away to become Bangladesh. In 2010, the Pakistani government has been criticised for not doing enough to help the victims of the floods; potentially exacerbating tensions between the ruling elite and the poor — usually the first to suffer in a natural disaster. At the same time the country is fighting what is effectively a civil war against Islamist militants, for whom poverty and alienation provide a fertile breeding ground.

At the very least, you can say that big natural disasters have unpredictable consequences. For that reason I’m reluctant to start speculating about the long term consequences of the floods, although the Indian blog, The Acorn, has made a pretty good stab at it here. And you can also say that the response of India will be crucial.

 In 1971, India backed the Bengali separatists, inflicting a humiliating military defeat on Pakistan, forcing its army to surrender at Dhaka and taking 90,000 Pakistani prisoners-of-war. Whatever the rights and wrongs of that war – and there are many – Pakistan’s narrative memory of India exploiting its weakness in a civil war to split the country in two continues to inform its thinking about its much bigger neighbour to this day. So what happens in 2010?

The question — at least as posed to me from a Pakistani perspective – is this. Will India show its sincerity towards peace by helping Pakistan recover from the biggest natural disaster in its history? Or will India take advantage of Pakistan’s current vulnerability to impose its will on Kashmir? It is a question which is at once haunted by the ghosts of 1971, and infused with an optimism that history does not have to repeat itself.

So far the signs are reasonably promising. Pakistan has accepted an offer of $5 million flood aid from India (think America taking aid from Iran or vice versa to understand the significance of this).  India is also pledging to do more to help rebuild Pakistan. India and Pakistan, said Indian ambassador to the United Nations  Hardeep Singh Puri, shared the same history, topography, land mass and river systems.  The South Asian region was prone to natural disasters and, throughout it, the vagaries of nature continued to take a heavy tool of human lives and material losses. “We share the pain and agony and fully understand the trauma and suffering that our Pakistani brethren are living through,” he said.

At the same time, two of the big issues (Kashmir and water) which India and Pakistan traditionally blame on each other have been shown to be caused - at least partially – by problems within.  In Kashmir, a fresh wave of protests led by Kashmiri youths throwing stones has displaced the standard Indian view of the Kashmir revolt as one fuelled almost entirely by Pakistan-backed gunmen and bombers.  For the first time in years, the talk is of a need for a settlement on Kashmir which acknowledges that Kashmiri separatism has indigenous roots. In Pakistan, its problems with water management have been shown to go far beyond the much talked about threat of India manipulating the rivers which flow from its side of the border.  Both countries have had their assumptions challenged; both therefore have the potential for a change in mindset which might make talks easier.

The Pakistan Army has also been steadily reassessing the threat from Islamist militants after seeing many of its own killed fighting them, and after a wave of bombings which extended right into the country’s heartland Punjab province.  According to the Wall Street Journal, the Inter-Services Intelligence (ISI) agency now sees the threat from Islamist militants as bigger than that posed by the Indian Army.  That is not terribly surprising to anyone who has been following the gradual evolution in Pakistan’s thinking towards militants it once backed to counter India. It also does not mean that the perceived threat from India has suddenly got smaller – army chief General Ashfaq Pervez Kayani has been quoted as saying he looks at capabilities rather than intentions. It just suggests the perceived threat from militants has become bigger. But it does, again, offer the possibility of a change in mindset.

So if India really does intend to do more to help Pakistan, what are the next steps?

In an op-ed in the Times of India, Swaminathan Aiyar suggests the Indian Army should unilaterally withdraw from the border in Punjab, Rajasthan and Gujarat.

“This will pose no military risk whatsoever: flood-stricken Pakistan cannot possibly embark on military adventures against India,” he writes. “But the withdrawal of Indian troops will mean that the Pakistan Army loses all excuses to avoid diverting manpower and financial resources from the border to flood relief and rehabilitation. This will cost India nothing, yet will release very large resources within Pakistan. Its impact on the Pakistani psyche will be significant. Even analysts who distrust Pakistan agree widely that India has no alternative to diplomatic engagement: cutting off ties will not win any minds and hearts there. Unilateral withdrawal will itself be a form of engagement, and will encourage other forms.”

Secondly, judging from comments I’ve heard repeatedly from Pakistani officials, India would also need to be seen to be actively trying to find a solution to Kashmir. The fear is always that India benefits from the status quo and will allow the Kashmir dispute to fester as long as it takes until everyone else – Pakistan and the Kashmiri people – are ground down and give up.  The response to that has been that India must be forced to negotiate on Kashmir through the use of violence. I know I’m simplifying here for the sake of brevity, but having heard all the arguments on all sides, if India were to actively seek a solution on Kashmir at a time when Pakistan is at its most vulnerable, it could go a long way to changing mindsets that only force will convince it to negotiate.

Thirdly, there is the potential for trade through more open borders which could do more to revitalise Pakistan’s economy than any amount of foreign aid. But that is a tricky one – when it comes to financial gain countries tend to get very ruthless about promoting their own interests through trade, the British East India Company being an early case in point.  For an indication of which way the wind is blowing, do watch how New Delhi responds to any European Union initiative to lower tariffs on Pakistani textile exports since this is one where India’s own textile industry could be undercut.

Finally, both countries desperately need to cooperate on climate change and water management. Both stand to suffer from the combined effects of melting Himalayan glaciers which feed their rivers and over-population which stretch (usually) scarce water resources.  And both have been at risk of fighting their next war over water for so long that it has been drifting into the dangerous territory of inevitability.

India and Pakistan have not done terribly well in trying to make peace so far – a meeting between their foreign ministers in July ended in acrimony. But they are trying to engage with each other and pick up the pieces of a peace process shattered by the November 2008 attack on Mumbai by Pakistan-based militants. Indian Prime Minister Manmohan Singh and his Pakistani counterpart Yusuf Raza Gilani – who are the ones who are really driving the dialogue process - could have an opportunity to talk on the sidelines of the United Nations General Assembly in New York in September. We will probably see then whether the floods in Pakistan have had a lasting impact on its relationship with India.

And in the meantime, for the pessimists out there, here is a line I noticed in the Wikipedia entry for the Bhola cyclone. I have not had time to check this beyond Wikipedia, and it is probably contested like everything else about the 1971 war. But it reads: “India became one of the first nations to offer aid to Pakistan, despite the generally poor relations between the two countries, and by the end of November had pledged $1.3 million (1970 USD, $6.9 million 2007 USD) of assistance for the relief efforts.”

It’s an entry crying out for an aphorism. ”Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it.”

321 comments

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Myra,

In your article, while you have proposed a few steps that India can take as a gesture of goodwill towards Pakistan, I’m curious as to why you have not proposed any such steps for Pakistan? For starters, Pakistan can make a similar gesture towards India by bringing to justice, the perpetrators of the Mumbai attacks and/or hand over other terrorists wanted by India (i.e. Dawood Ibrahim, Azhar Mahmood etc).

Posted by Mortal1 | Report as abusive

In all these years reporting South Asia, Myra has rarely got her analysis on the region correct. This article displays, I guess, we need to be more patient with her.

Posted by NPegasus | Report as abusive

In all these years reporting South Asia, Myra has rarely got her analysis on the region right. This article displays, I guess, we need to be more patient with her.

Posted by NPegasus | Report as abusive

Myra, you said:

> The fear is always that India benefits from the status quo and will allow the Kashmir dispute to fester as long as it takes until everyone else – Pakistan and the Kashmiri people – are ground down and give up.

From this, you build up the argument that peace can come if India negotiates when it doesn’t have to, i.e., when Pakistan is most vulnerable.

I have to ask the obvious question – given this fear that you mention, why doesn’t Pakistan scramble to accept any peace deal on the table, since the future may offer much less leverage?

Although I’m Indian, I know from history that a Versailles-like treaty imposed by a dominant India on a helpless Pakistan would not be the way to lasting peace. On the contrary, it could lay the foundation for another war, however hopeless. Lasting peace can only be achieved by equals who respect each other as such. From that viewpoint, the window of opportunity is narrowing and the two must move fast. The urgency is probably higher for Pakistan. Time seems to be on India’s side. I can’t see India offering generous terms like formalising the LoC if a settlement took place 10 or 20 years from now when the gap between the countries is much higher.

No Pakistani would like to admit this (that their country is weakening relative to India and should therefore settle quickly), but an independent and neutral analyst like yourself could suggest it. We shouldn’t be coy about discussing uncomfortable topics.

Regards,
Ganesh Prasad

Posted by prasadgc | Report as abusive

Myra said:
“In an op-ed in the Times of India, Swaminathan Aiyar suggests the Indian Army should unilaterally withdraw from the border in Punjab, Rajasthan and Gujarat.

“This will pose no military risk whatsoever: flood-stricken Pakistan cannot possibly embark on military adventures against India,” he writes.”

>> I’m sure Mr. Aiyar trusts God but will he leave his house unlocked? The threat is not only from the Army but it is also from the infiltrations by same Islamic terrorists that PA itself is fighting. With the upcoming common-wealth games and festive season, India has too much reputation and safety at stake to do any misadventure in terms of letting down her guard.

” if India were to actively seek a solution on Kashmir at a time when Pakistan is at its most vulnerable, it could go a long way to changing mindsets that only force will convince it to negotiate.”

>> Very well! How about Pakistan arresting and prosecuting Hafiz Saeed and party simultaneously? You could have included that in the article. Is that a careful omission or you really believe India could clap with one hand?

Why do your articles always give the impression that the you are deliberately biased towards Pakistan?

Posted by Seth | Report as abusive

There are two problems with that title of this article:

A) Its wrong to read the gesture as a peace initiative
B) $5 million is too small a retainership amount for any peace deal when the stakes are in billions.

Posted by Seth | Report as abusive

Seth said:
Why do your articles always give the impression that the you are deliberately biased towards Pakistan?

Did u just figure it out? The left and liberal press is heavily biased towards Pakistan – see coverage in Guardian for example.
Expect no sympathy for mumbai attacks, ISI sponsored bomb blasts, infiltration across the border, – instead expect sanctimonous rants on how we should do more.

Posted by nvrforgetmbai | Report as abusive

Between 1971 and now, a lot of things have changed. Both India and Pakistan have become nuclear powers. Both militaries have a lot more destructive capability. Any large scale confrontation will lead to mutually assured destruction. India in the 1970s was very different from the India we have today. It has become more practical. China has become the same too. It is easier to let others do the fight for you rather than fight yourself. But conflicts will lead to more conflicts. The US can vouch for that. Setting off fires will not help put the fire down.

I think India should take the steps now to change the course of matters in this region. The steps should be focused on reassuring Pakistan that it is after all a friend and would like to become even friendlier. I like the idea of pulling the troops off the borders as a good measure. However, one should not become blind to the reality today. Even if Pakistani army, the government and its people might want to better relations with India, there are small groups inside Pakistan who still want to take on India using terrorism. And there are groups inside India like Shiv Sena, RSS etc which want to keep the hostilities alive in order to gain mileage out of them. This is unfortunate. But both countries have to take bold steps. If these elements try to widen the gap, they must be contained, by force if needed.

Kashmir has a new generation now and it looks at India as an occupying country. I don’t know what kind of plans Man Mohan Singh has in his mind. For the first time I see pictures of Kashmiri women and elders joining their campaign. They seem to have lost all fear and are willing to face the bullets. I think some action has to be taken by India. But it cannot be by force. It is not going to work. The longer we delay in taking any action, the more potent this problem can become. Even if we give them independence, there is a fair chance that we will have yet another hostile Islamic nation next to our border. That is the main worry why India has been tightly holding on to Kashmir. But this cannot go on forever. Some change and compromise will need to happen and happen soon. Let us hope wisdom prevails.

I’d like to see more aid going from India to Pakistan. May be Man Mohan Singh should pay a visit and ask Gilani if he would let Indian relief agencies to come in and help. Pakistan definitely is at the cross roads and there are signs that they might chose the right path. Let us hope it become real.

Posted by KPSingh01 | Report as abusive

“Living well is the best revenge.” Lets focus on our country – bringing people out of poverty, more jobs, improving access to education and health care.
Build a Israeli security barrier type wall between the two countries and move on with our lives.

Posted by nvrforgetmbai | Report as abusive

@nvrforgetmbai

Bridges would be better idea than walls! But Pakistan must demonstrate stopping use of terrorism as a foreign policy. Bringing 26/11 perpetrators to books would go a long way in accomplishing that.

It disappoints me that even in the wake of this devastation, people are expecting India to recede its strong position vis-a-vis status quo on Kashmir, water “dispute” and judging it as a barometer of the sincerity of Indian establishment in having peaceful relations. And now this textile trade breaks supposedly at Indian cost? Why not first force swiss banks to disclose 200 billion dollars of Pakistani politicians and rightfully deposit them in Pakistan’s national treasury instead?

Posted by Seth | Report as abusive

re: India removing armed forces to alleviate Pak fears of Indian charge

On second thoughts, this is absolutely silly. Pseudo-seculars like Mr. Aiyar are available a dime a dozen in India. They almost justify the existence of much-hated hardliners like Shiv Sena and RSS.

Won’t the withdrawal be read as if India always wanted to attack Pakistan? And now when its under water, India could not do it for the fear of International backlash and that is why we removed the forces to cut unnecessary (now) costs.

Second interpretation is that India’s concern are completely legitimate, in which case, it should not let the guard down at all.

Shouldn’t it be other way round instead? After all, entire world is watching. What does Pakistan has to fear about while removing its entire force from border and use them for flood-relief instead?

Posted by Seth | Report as abusive

nvrforgetmbai said:
“Did u just figure it out? The left and liberal press is heavily biased towards Pakistan – see coverage in Guardian for example.
Expect no sympathy for mumbai attacks, ISI sponsored bomb blasts, infiltration across the border, – instead expect sanctimonous rants on how we should do more.”

These people remind me of story of Barbarik in Mahabharat, who had taken an oath of always fighting on the weak side irrespective of principles and righteousness. I hope India has enough Krishnas to deal with such Barbariks.

Posted by Seth | Report as abusive

@Seth
Bridges would be better idea than walls! But Pakistan must demonstrate stopping use of terrorism as a foreign policy. Bringing 26/11 perpetrators to books would go a long way in accomplishing that.

I live in this world and must be practical. While I would love to see “world peace” it ain’t happening. Best to assume the worst and prepare for it while hoping for the best. If Pakistan does take steps to normalize relationships with true intentions I will personally join the crowd breaking the wall. Till then, better safe than sorry.

Posted by nvrforgetmbai | Report as abusive

I like to think I’m a realist too, but realism doesn’t mean one has to err on the side of paranoia! The chances of peace are in fact brighter today than in the recent past, but to take advantage of this, both Pakistan and India need to relax a bit. They should rest secure in the knowledge that the world environment has changed to be far less tolerant to violence, and this benefits both peoples.

Pakistanis can afford to relax because India simply cannot rush in and dismember Pakistan even if it wants to. (And this has nothing to do with Pakistan’s nukes.) India has an international reputation to safeguard, as a moderate, democratic state that is a force for peace and stability. It will not jeopardise that reputation lightly.

Indians can also take a chill pill. While terrorism is still a possibility, Pakistan and its military will be under a nutcracker if another Mumbai happens. There may be fanatics in the PA/ISI, but they’re not stupid. They know the tactics of the past won’t work anymore. The world is now more willing to call freedom-fighters terrorists than the other way around. Sanctions and worse will follow if another smoking gun leads back to Rawalpindi.

So let’s all tone down the “Kashmir first” and “Terror trial first” dogma and grab the chance for peace. The peace dividend is greater than all the imagined gains to national pride or even national security.

The rest will follow, whether it is the people’s aspirations in Kashmir or justice for terror attacks against India. Some unpalatable sacrifices may also need to be made for the sake of the greater good of the region, such as pardons for various human rights crimes and terror attacks.

Every other position seems dogmatic to the “other” side and thus leads to stalemate.

Regards,
Ganesh Prasad

Posted by prasadgc | Report as abusive

I object to being called paranoid. I am more than happy to give peace a chance but will maintain that we should prepare for the worst and then only hope for the best.
No point in hugging people who will respond by stabbing us in the back- remember Vajpayee, Sharif and Musharraf.
We should learn from our history and not repeat mistakes.
With 20% of population displaced and the inability to generate aid support the easiest way out for them to create some big incident – mumbai type in India. Then the country unites against a common enemy. Honestly, Ganesh if u think that “Sanctions and worse will follow if another smoking gun leads back to Rawalpindi” then u are mistaken. All smoking guns pointed to Islamabad for Mumbai attack but nothing has happened. The Intl community does not care much for India.
We should solve our own problems – and be very realistic and prepared for mischief :)

Posted by nvrforgetmbai | Report as abusive

In times of need, every single nation comes to offer help. When disasters are so wide spread, it’s better not to bring in old enmities, but to consider the intention behind it.

Posted by SZaman88 | Report as abusive

nvrforgetmbai,

You misunderstand me. I’m not suggesting that India should abandon the border or stop being alert about infiltration. My point was about pursuing the peace agreement without waiting for action on arresting and trying the people behind Mumbai. Standing stubbornly on that will hold up more important business.

We have an agreement all drafted and ready to sign. Musharraf was ousted before he could sign it. India should get Zardari/Gilani to sign it with Kayani’s blessing and stabilise the border (which should include the Siachen demarcation). Then we can take up the terror trials, Kashmir plebiscite, water talks, etc., in a more relaxed fashion. The fundamental territorial dispute has to be settled first.

> The Intl community does not care much for India.

Perhaps not directly, but sins add up gradually. We’ve read the comments on blogs about aid to Pakistan and how negative ordinary citizens are. There is definitely a price that Pakistan is paying. It’ll get worse with every terror incident that leads back to that country. They’re not getting away with it at all.

> the easiest way out for them to create some big incident – mumbai type in India. Then the country unites against a common enemy.

A terror attack on India will not unite Pakistanis. An Indian counterattack will. That’s why India has to play this game very patiently and show statesmanship and restraint. Any sharp reaction will set things back to India’s own detriment. There’s a minority of people who want to create mischief. India should be careful not to play into their hands.

Gradual pressure, applied through multilateral channels, will work over the medium to long term. In fact, one could argue that it is already working. I don’t know if you’re getting a sense of this, but Pakistanis are emotionally very defensive right now. They know their establishment has been caught doing nasty things and that the world knows about it. Their collective reputation has been tarnished. India should be wise in taking advantage of this situation to win the peace for good.

Regards,
Ganesh Prasad

Posted by prasadgc | Report as abusive

> Why do your articles always give the impression that the you are deliberately biased towards Pakistan?

I think Myra tries to be balanced but she probably spends more time in Pakistan talking to Pakistanis, hence her portrayal of the Pakistani position is closer to what Pakistanis feel. Her portrayal of India’s position is more clinical and detached.

It would be good if she could spend time in both countries talking to a wide cross-section of people. Analysts like her who have no baggage with either country are best positioned to understand the region’s issues and reinterpret us to ourselves.

Sometimes it takes an outsider to hold up a mirror so we can see ourselves better. This blog is doing a good job in getting people to open up and talk, and Myra picks topical issues to discuss. Spending more time in both countries would be my suggestion to improve these columns.

Regards,
Ganesh Prasad

Posted by prasadgc | Report as abusive

Myra,

Is $5 million not sufficient for extortionist making illogical demands ? It has been a global concern that in absence of financial help from international community, Pakistan will be taken over by terrorists and jehadis, does it not tentamount to extortion by Pakistanis by creating fear psychosis and then begging for help ? Pakistanis are experts in this , they have mastered this art very successfully. What international community has failed to realise that Pakistan is already taken over by jehadis and terrorists , this govt is a puppet govt, the strings are controlled by ISI, Pak Army and a number of jehadi organisations. Pakistan is trying to get loan from IMF and World Bank, while negotiating for the loan, IMF must ask for dismantling of terror infrastructure from its soil , and handing over of all nuclear weapons to IAEA for safeguarding and preventing Pakistanis from nuclear proliferation .

Posted by manishindia | Report as abusive

Amazing! The entire article is full of suggestions to the Indian government and how India should assuage Pakistan. But there is not one suggestion given to the Pakistan government, as to what they can do to assuage India. Where were Myra’s editorials demanding that Pakistan hand over Hafiz Saeed when India was grieving after the Mumbai attacks. Even when she talks about Kashmir, there is no mention of the 60,000 Sikhs being harassed by the militants in Kashmir to convert or die. Or about the millions of Kashmiri Pandits who had to flee their homes to Delhi.

If the West thinks sacrificing India will appease Islamic militants and save them trouble, it is sadly mistaken.

Posted by Rajnigandha | Report as abusive

I think the world community does have a leverage with Pakistan this time to force it to give up its reliance on terrorist groups. Pakistan has dodged the issue by separating terrorists as those against Pakistan’s interests and those who are aligned with Pakistan. May be a carrot can be hung with the demand that Pakistan sincerely gives up terrorism altogether as a proxy weapon. The recent exposure of Pakistan’s duplicity in the war on terror has left a bitter taste in many donor countries. That is one reason why there has not been an overwhelming response for the disaster. Pakistan is at the cross roads and it has to make a conscious choice. These floods have placed the nation in that situation.

If Iran goes out of control, then Pakistan might go back to its old ways by offering staging areas for the Americans again. So it is a tough decision for Pak military. Pakistan has always tried to gain by creating situations to rise global crisis and placing itself in a vital spot. And it has lived off the money that flowed in from outside for such efforts. But this is a risky game. It has backfired on Pakistan. The floods have exposed another underlying emptiness that is far more serious for the nation than any external threat.

I think at this time, aid should be unconditional. But Pakistan’s problems are far from over. The after effects of the flooding have not begun yet that might cause more harm to the nation. This is where Pakistan will need more support and help from other countries. If the response has been lukewarm right after the flooding, one can imagine how it is going to be when the floods recede and the people have to rebuild everything lost. That is when Pakistan will need maximum help. And the international community can exert pressure on Pakistan to give up some of its bad habits in order to receive sustained aid. Any militant attacks on foreigners can derail all that. And that might be a strategic plan for some of the radical groups that have spun out of control. By unilterally dropping all links to militancy, Pakistan can definitely get a lot more support that it deserves. Let us see if they do it on their own before being forced into it.

Posted by KPSingh01 | Report as abusive

The view in India has always been that the Pakistani military is the main reason peace talks never lead anywhere, that the civilian politicians would make peace with India if it weren’t for the Army. While there is truth to this view, Kayani is definitely extremely anti-Indian, the Pakistani reaction to India’s aid offer laid bare the civilian politicians’ views towards India. It showed that the politicians are for the most part just as anti-Indian as the army.

Posted by Mekeritrig | Report as abusive

@Myra, Ganesh, Bloggers,

I think if the Pak Army is too stubborn, the IMF, the USA and foreign investment interests are the only ones who can force Pakistan to make peace with India, “or else”.

India does not want to dismember, nor hurt, or set back Pakistan in any manner, we just want Pakistan to become a moderate neighbour that wants for its people what India wants for its people. We just want terrorism and grand dreams of Islamic expansion into the Indian heartland to cease and be abandoned, it will merely lead to war without end and millions dying for nothing.

The only forces in the world that have held Pakistan together to keep it a financially surviving venture, just barely are the World Bank, IMF and USA.

They CAN dictate sternly and bluntly and there is no reason why they can’t. Militantism can be eradicated easily and quickly if there is political will to do so. Everbody is eager to reward poor behavior, but little has been done to encourage good behavior by Pakistan.

The Pakistani’s must be told the only way that their state will survive and continue to receive assistance is if they make peace with India and formalize an iron clad treaty in blood, with the Army and Civilian government in Pakistan wholeheartedly on board and Kashmir should be solved at the same time, with both India and Pakistan vacating and completely leaving both sides under UN and NATO monitoring to ensure full honesty and transparency.

The Kashmiri’s should be left on their own for some time an without interference from Pakistan or India, let them decide their own futures.

Pakistan and India can both signficantly allocate much more money towards building their countries and focusing on the well being of their peoples.

There is an uncompromising core at the root of the Indo Pak conflict, that is the Pak Army. They are uncompromising as the Taliban or Al-Qaeda, in many ways and somebody has to muster the political will to talk to this establishment directly to let them know that they are holding the entire region hostage and not letting peace come to anybody and in the end, prolonging the suffering and lost potential of Pakistani’s.

Posted by G-W | Report as abusive

@bloggers, is there anything wrong with what I have said above?

Posted by G-W | Report as abusive

http://english.aljazeera.net/news/asia/2 010/08/201082314222598650.html

Further to my comments above, Pakistan is already talking with the IMF for further help, due to the flood.

While the IMF is not a political entity, this is a hallmark opportunity to inflict forced reforms upon Pakistan.

The US should and must force some muscle here to reward good behavior only.

Posted by G-W | Report as abusive

http://swampland.blogs.time.com/2010/08/ 23/pakistans-game/

Here is a damning TIME magazine article by a senior Pakistani Military officer claiming that Pakistan has been protecting the Taliban killing NATO soldiers.

There is a hallmark time for the US, and all other western nations to demand that Pakistan choose a side, either the Taliban, or the US, as Pakistan cannot serve both.

Posted by G-W | Report as abusive

BTW…Clinton, Obama and Washington take note, your policy on handling Pakistan is completely fxxked!

On one hand you fight the Taliban in Afghanistan, on the other hand you give money to those who kill your soldiers, either you guys are extremely stupid and Pakistan is extremely intelligent, or you guys are doing something for some other purpose, only you and your back door people would know what that is.

We do have a long enough attention span to know that something is going on and something is not right.

Posted by G-W | Report as abusive

Myra McDonald has long been a Pakistan hater and written racist and anti-Pakistanist articles to the extent that she is banned by the Government of Pakistan to enter the country.

That being said what people forget and Indians must be reminded about every second of every day is that Pakistan has over 100 nuclear warheads, Enough to destroy not just India but if need be the entire Asian continent.

I have long advocated that Pakistan adopt a Samson option, If Pakistan is forced into a position by the world in which its existence is threatened then Pakistan should launch all its nuclear weapons at India and other targets aswell provoking a world wide nuclear war.

If Pakistanis cant have Pakistan, Indians cant have India.

SO the fate of the two countries is forever linked.

Posted by Jinnah | Report as abusive

Another egsample of the duplicitous character of the PA:

“Pakistanis Tell of Motive in Taliban Leader’s Arrest” – NYT

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/08/23/world/ asia/23taliban.html?_r=1&hpw

Posted by Mortal1 | Report as abusive

oops, “example”….long day!

Posted by Mortal1 | Report as abusive

Pakistan shouldn’t have gone this way, massive power outages, weak and corrupt state institutions, poor relations with India, an Afghanistan at war since last three decades, little infrastructure, weak economy. And now devastating floods, the challenges seem to be enormous. But there is no easy bailout, realities cannot be changed and challenges have to be faced. Irrespective of India’s behavior, Pakistan must march on. Bring economic reforms, land reforms, rebuild trust, invest in state institutions, long years are ahead and hard work and consistency is required. Invest in education and healthcare. After painful years of hard work, the results will begin to surface and things will start to improve. Luckily the Army is capable of dealing with challenges, people are gifted and capable. There is no reason why Pakistan cannot turn around the situation.

And for those Indians who think peace with Pakistan should not be given a chance because of Mumbai attacks in 2008. You must remember, the memories of 1971 war and its bitterness are remembered by Pakistanis who were even born decades after the event. What does it mean? maybe peace will never be possible if we don’t try hard, and don;t try again and again.
Again those who think Myra is biased, I would say Indians show their historic behavior. If someone tells you the truth on your face, you can’t take it. Back in the 90s when the talk was of signing the CTBT nuclear test ban treaty India would never agree. Then went on to detonate nukes, when Pakistan followed there was a lot of hue and cry. Today same Indians wish IAEA could take over Pakistani nukes. So first you dont listen the truth and good advice, later you cry and whine. So this time also don;t create conditions for peace till the next war where we are at each others throat. (of course with nukes in hand.)
For the gentleman who was stupid enough to propose an Israeli style barrier wall, such types of aparthied measures dont work anymore in the free world. Despite the barrier wall, Hamas still fires rockets on cities in Israel, West Bank remains as volatile, Hezbollah still continues to threaten peace from Southern Lebanon. What has the barrier given Israel? a false sense of security?

Posted by Umairpk | Report as abusive

Can India realize what has happened in Pakistan since 2007? major events have taken place. Today militants are being viewed as a major threat to Pakistan not India. It is the ISI and Pakistan Army’s assessment.
I fully support Pakistan Army operations against militants, in my opinion Army should tighten the noose and choke the militants, give them only two choices, surrender or die. They have killed many innocent people and deserve no mercy.Today Army is rebuilding schools in Swat and other areas, psychologists are working in a model school setup by Army to rehabilitate young radicalized boys.
Is India willing to see the transformation Pakistan is going through? and forge a strategic relationship. I see a big section in India unwilling for peace with Pakistan. In long run it will be clear that both India and Pakistan will be loosers if there is no peace.

Posted by Umairpk | Report as abusive

And just to add.
The government of PM Manmohan Singh has stuck to one line, no peace with Pakistan till Mumbai attack culprits are brought to justice. Fair enough, but his government is weak and not willing to take initiative against the will of Indian public. It is understandable.
In Pakistan, elections took place in 2008, that same year former president Musharraf became deeply unpopular because he ousted an independent minded chief Justice of supreme court. Pakistan’s civil society, ordinary people, media and lawyers, political workers came out in the streets and roads. Musharraf had to resign, after free and fair elections, a democratic government took over. Chief Justice was reinstated after large countrywide demonstrations in his favor. Media which is free and independent here played its positive role.

This is what is required from India’s civil society, political workers of main parties, media etc. If you realize and give importance to peace, work to educate Indian public and build support for peace with Pakistan. If you think status qou works well in your favor, by all means have the way it is going.
You stay happy calling for justice for Mumbai victims, we will keep taking action against the perpetrators. Result=0.

Posted by Umairpk | Report as abusive

Dear Umair,
Firstly I am a lady not a gentleman. :) Secondly the Israeli barrier has reduced the number of suicide attacks by Palestinians.
Statistics are avbl on the Israeli govt sites including
7654 attacks in 2001 down to 2135 in 2006 as the wall neared completion.
Sometimes good fences make good neighbours. The number of Israelis killed in rocket attacks remain quite low. People have the warning system as well. Suicide attacks (Kasab style) caused more damage and more people die in them. The word apartheid could be used between Israel and Palestine but honestly does India and Pakistan have that much people to people contact. Are our farm lands overlapping? no. We live apart and the barrier will ensure lower number of attacks – as long as we extend it along our coastline as well.
For the record, I live in Mumbai and travel by the trains from Churchgate – mirror station to VT (where Kasab struck) on the Western line. For several days after the Kasab attack, I could not bring myself to travel by train. While I feel nothing but murderous rage towards Kasab and the people who inspired him, I do agree with you that the mumbai attacks should not be a barrier to peace. And I hope all of u appreciate the emotional turmoil I undergo when I say this.
However, given that Pakistan is unable/unwilling to guarantee that no further such attacks are being planned/executed from its soil, I think we need more innovative measures to protect ourselves. The wall could be a start.

Posted by nvrforgetmbai | Report as abusive

“Again those who think Myra is biased, I would say Indians show their historic behavior. If someone tells you the truth on your face, you can’t take it.”

C’mon Umair! A supposedly independent observer prescribing three actions to one party for attaining peace and keeping mum to the second party? This article has biased so written all over it!

“This is what is required from India’s civil society, political workers of main parties, media etc. If you realize and give importance to peace, work to educate Indian public and build support for peace with Pakistan.”

You mean Indian people revolting for peace with Pakistan because Pakistanis did so for reinstatement of their chief justice? And now comes the common youth phrase – Kya baat kar raha hai yaar? (What are you talking friend?). Anyways, there is still so much more support for peace with Pakistan than you can imagine and nobody needs to come out and do anything special about it.

Why do you keep forgetting the thaw we had achieved in our relations before Mumbai attacks? So many positive things were happening between the people of two countries, weren’t it? Few terrorists from Pakistan spoiled the entire peace process with governments from BOTH countries playing into their game. Forget us ranting Indians, even you Pakistanis and your ISI/Army is now beginning to understand the security fears these terrorists can cause in the public psyche. After witnessing couple of bombs exploding almost every week, this concept of terrorist-kind Jihad is fast evaporating from Pakistani mindset, which is good for everyone. And you say that India is stuck to one line. Weren’t your ordinary people, lawyers and political persons stuck behind one line when they pressed for reinstatement of Chief Justice Chaudhary?

India is not your Pakistan where some army general will sweep the democratic government in a coup. We’re sorry but our Army is not capable of running our country. :) Here leaders have to bow to public sentiments to run the nation which is how a democracy works btw. So yes, Mr. Manmohan Singh & party has no other option but to push for Pakistan’s commitment on stopping the use of terrorism as foreign policy.

Another thing, terrorism cannot be equated to Kashmir problem. In case of terrorism, people die if left unchecked and hence its resolution can not wait. Kashmir, on the other hand, is an issue about political aspirations of certain people and can wait (I don’t mean indefinitely). How so ever bad Indian governance can be in Kashmir, people are not dying BECAUSE of it. Not Pakistani people most certainly. Same cannot be said about terrorism.

@nvrforgetmbai
I myself have experienced the effects of terrorism during my days in New Delhi and I fully understand and share your concerns. But I still prefer to see friendly and peaceful Indo-Pak relations. We may get away with “walls” today but then these walls would become our legacy to our children who certainly deserve a better heritage than this.

Peace out.

Posted by Seth | Report as abusive

Pakistanis like Umair have not realized that they have made more enemies than friends over the years. People in Afghanistan are openly accusing the ISI and Pak military of manipulating Afghanistan.The Taliban itself has acknowledged the double dealing nature of Pakistani military establishment. There is no trust like it was in the 1990s. There is worry in Afghanistan that Pakistan will unleash the Taliban again will keep it as a backyard for its objectives. Afghan women fear the return of the Taliban. Pak military might just do that to keep these monsters active and from biting Pakistan back.

Pakistan has placed itself in a very difficult situation. In order to gain supremacy in the region it developed the Jihadi infrastructure. To keep it occupied conflicts have to be run continuously. Groups have to be turned against one another. Any let up will begin to hurt Pakistan itself. The whole thing has gained momentum.
To keep the monsters fed at all times, a lot money is needed.

The problem is that Pakistan has been placed at the focal point of international community, in regards to global terrorism. The economy has been hit hard by the flooding. Without money Pak military cannot do much and the donor nations are not going to allow Pak military to siphon off the aid money like before. They are watching everything and are slow in doling out money. Thus Pak military will find itself in a very difficult situation soon – not having the money to keep its pet dogs under control and launch them into hunting expeditions to keep them occupied. And these militant groups are not known for their patience. A lot of frustration and anger are going to vent from within. That is why it is very important not to project your military as the champion of Pakistani cause. It gives a very negative impression about Pakistan, considering all the deeds of the Pak military over the years. Pakistan is being viewed more as a part of a problem than that of a solution. MQM leader Altaf Hussein has already voiced his frustration, asking for a military coup. If a coup happens, Pakistan will need to create another global level problem to force other nations to comply.

This belief that Pakistan has survived against the odds, it is resilient etc are becoming more empty rhetoric. Reality appears very bleak. That is why it is important for Pakistanis to drop their paranoia about India and look to your neighbor as a benevolent nation. India did not take advantage of Pakistan’s current difficult situation. If it was an evil nation as you people believe, it would have done something to derive benefit from it. India has offered help and has stayed out of the mess. India would have done a lot more if the attitude is not this negative.

It is time to change the perspective about India. We are not a hostile nation. For the past two decades India has moved on a different path. It has realized that conflicts cost a lot of money and lives. It is better to get wealthy and work towards improving the quality of life.

Umair compares the Mumbai attacks to the creation of Bangladesh. The two have no similarities whatsoever. If Pakistan had not attacked India in 1965, India would not have decided to find a long term solution by cutting East Pakistan off when the opportunity presented itself. It was not a terrorist mission. It was a clean war in which one side lost to the other. Mumbai attacks are criminal acts. It was staged and supported by your ISI. No matter how much you might deny that, David Coleman Headley has given enough information on that. Anyway, all that is old flour. There is no use grinding it here.

Right now Pakistan is hurt deeply by the floods. You need support and we support you wholeheartedly. Even if we cannot help in any other way, you have our sympathy and compassion. After all, suffering is not confined to any religion. We hope that this calamity is used as a stepping stone by Pakistanis to build a new future devoid of radicalism and militancy and full of progressive ideals.

Posted by KPSingh01 | Report as abusive

Umair,

AS usual you do not heed the advice you give others. You have told us all along what India should do. Tell us what your side has done? You keep harping on Bangla Desh, kashmir blah blah blah, have you even once said anything about the disgraceful way in which you’ll are handling the trial of Lakhvi and Co.? What is your suggestion about that? The latest buzz is that Pakistan also wants India to tell it about Hadley’s parentage and his life history. He being a formerly Pakistani “Non sate Actor”- another one. How immature can you get?

Now you say $5 mn is peanuts – I notice you love to quote your military leaders. In this case the late unlamented Zia. You very conveniently make no mention that more has been offered. Someone else says that India should have offered aid in kind. This is more ignorance bordering on paronia. For their information the aid is in kind, but currently valued at $5 mn. Pakistan has to decide how it wants it to be converted. You people are so blinded by your hatred and insecurity that India can never do anything right. So OK lets hear it from you guys – HOW MUCH SHOULD INDIA OFFER? What will satisfy you? Should it shell out the full 400 odd mn that is said to be needed?

Am I the only one who feels a sense of utter disgust at all this talk of tying to aid to peace and looking at angles and comparisions with the past? Besides it’s not just India is it – where are the rest? Donor fatigue is a fine euphamism……….there is a monumental human calamity being played out and people are looking at Indo Pak realtions and other angles. To me it is disgusting.

Posted by DaraIndia | Report as abusive

I do not see how walls preclude any chance of peace. Why are they mutually exclusive? We can have both a wall and peace.

As a country, we are enforcing other walls – like not issuing visas to people of Pakistani origin in UK/USA (Guardian article on this).

My main point is “we have to prepare for the worst and hope for the best not vice versa.”

I am not a hawk – I would like peace. But I have to live in the world as it is not in some ideal world and we have to protect our people first.

My worst case scenario is Taliban coming back to power in Afghanistan once US leaves and full blowback in India. Pls explain what am I missing? Should we be unprepared for this scenario especially given the mess next door.

Posted by nvrforgetmbai | Report as abusive

KPSingh01:
“We hope that this calamity is used as a stepping stone by Pakistanis to build a new future devoid of radicalism and militancy and full of progressive ideals.”

You are hoping for the best again and much as I appreciate and am impressed by your generosity, we cannot plan our security based on this scenario. We have to plan based on a lot worse scenario.

Posted by nvrforgetmbai | Report as abusive

nvrforgetmbai said:

> For the record, I live in Mumbai and travel by the trains from Churchgate – mirror station to VT (where Kasab struck) on the Western line.

I beat you then ;-). I lived and worked in Mumbai in the late eighties and early nineties. I actually used to catch the harbour local to Chembur from VT station itself! Though I have been out of India for 15 years now, the scenes of carnage at VT station hit home quite hard. I have been at that very concourse countless times. If not for the accident of time, I could have been one of the victims.

I can understand why you adopt the nickname nvrforgetmbai. It is a shocking event, which is why this is called terrorism.

We need to attack the roots of this evil, and that means engaging with the forces that sent Kasab and his companions over, however distasteful such engagement may be. Nobody is advocating a naive attitude, but winning the peace also requires courage.

If Umair’s comments above reflect the thinking of the average Pakistani today, we have hope. For too long, there has only been hate-filled rhetoric. Now there seems to be a change in tone which is welcome.

KP Singh’s words are meant sincerely and should be taken sincerely by Pakistanis – India is not an enemy but a friend. If Pakistanis can learn to trust India, they will not be disappointed.

Regards,
Ganesh Prasad

Posted by prasadgc | Report as abusive

Ganesh:
We need to attack the roots of this evil, and that means engaging with the forces that sent Kasab and his companions over, however distasteful such engagement may be. Nobody is advocating a naive attitude, but winning the peace also requires courage.

What do u mean exactly? Shall we sit across the table with people who want to murder us, destroy our country – balkanize India as Umair so eloquently put it a few days go and say what? Do u want us to say ” Do not kill us – we surrender. We give u Kashmir + all other parts of India u want and u let the rest of us go?”

Land for Peace is a formula that Israel tried with Gaza and fell flat on its face.

Pls understand that our neighbourhood – perhaps only mine as most of u are NRIS :( is a dangerous place. “Eternal vigilance is the price I pay for my freedom.”

This battle with militant Islam as embodied in Taliban in Afghanistan, Pak Taliban in Pakistan and Let sponsored Kasab attacks in India is going to be a very long battle. We should be prepared and vigilant.

This is actually not that much about Pakistan – I think at some level things have spun out of their control. ISI thought they could have a controlled set of terrorists for use against India but these people turned against their own handler- causing the violence now seen in Pakistan.

Will things get better – i hope so but I am not that sure especially after the floods. With 1 in 5 Pakistanis affected coupled with a weak civil govt, I think they are in for “interesting times”.

I do not want to drawn in their mess. Leave me and my city out of it. For that a security barrier will help.

Posted by nvrforgetmbai | Report as abusive

Myra,
Basic leverage calculations tell me that India can sit squat and make no concessions towards Pakistan. Now that Pakistan has conceded that it cannot/will not control India-specific terrorists on it’s soil, there is nothing that India wants from Pakistan.

Posted by trickey | Report as abusive

nvrforgetmbai:
” I live in Mumbai and travel by the trains from Churchgate – mirror station to VT (where Kasab struck) on the Western line. For several days after the Kasab attack, I could not bring myself to travel by train. While I feel nothing but murderous rage towards Kasab and the people who inspired him, I do agree with you that the mumbai attacks should not be a barrier to peace. And I hope all of u appreciate the emotional turmoil I undergo when I say this.”

-I would like to mention when I lived and worked abroad few years back, one of my roommate and colleague was from Mumbai and belonged to the family of a very famous Muslim scholar from India (I will not name). I went overseas right after college, and when interacted with Indians, my thinking changed a lot.
Now I come to the emotional part, in September 2008 when the Marriot Hotel In Islamabad was bombed, I survived because our company is closed on Saturdays. Had it been on a working day at the same time, I might not be lucky enough since our office is the next building which was badly damaged resulting in several casualties. When we went to office after a few days, it was an astonishing scene, the place was simply unrecognizable with a huge crater in front and trees gone. I also lost a college friend who was serving as captain in the Army when his vehicle was hit by a roadside bomb last year.Just to let you know while Mumbai was a once off, what we face on daily basis. But life has to go on.

Now back to barrier wall, do you really think the barrier wall will be useful. In my office a colleague is doing MBA and their university group from Islamabad visited India via Wahga border crossing. Do you think a barrier will allow such an exchange in future? No.
True, Mumbai attacks were a tradegy. But just look, Pakistan has to endure a Mumbai almost every month or so. Moreover, in the age of missile warfare, the barrier is no defense. Kasab and his group used the route from Karachi via Gujrat to Mumbai harbour through sea. Do you plan to extend your barrier wall to the sea? Also Israel and Palestine do not share 2200 KM border do they? a barrier wall 2200 km long? is it possible?
I would still argue, a barrier can provide you a false sense of security, real security will come when India and Pakistan normalize relations. Interaction between people will show them we are same, when public is less hostile, it gives governments a free hand to negotiate peace.

Posted by Umairpk | Report as abusive

nvrforgetmbai said:

> What do u mean exactly? Shall we sit across the table with people who want to murder us, destroy our country – balkanize India as Umair so eloquently put it a few days go and say what? Do u want us to say ” Do not kill us – we surrender. We give u Kashmir + all other parts of India u want and u let the rest of us go?”

No need to get so dramatic :-). Just sit across the table and sign that old agreement that is sitting on the shelf. Formalise the LoC as the international border. Gen Kayani’s boss (Musharraf) was willing to sign it. Why shouldn’t Kayani be willing to do the same? Once the Pak army stands up and says they have no more territorial claims on India (including Indian Kashmir), that will carry enough moral authority within Pakistan so that the general population also agrees. Sure, LeT, JeM and their various mutations will not agree, but an agreement with the army’s blessing will stop the fertiliser on which they thrive.

[Kashmir needs a settlement too, but that can only come when the India-Pakistan relationship becomes cordial.]

Umair said:
> a barrier can provide you a false sense of security, real security will come when India and Pakistan normalize relations. Interaction between people will show them we are same, when public is less hostile, it gives governments a free hand to negotiate peace.

Thanks for saying that, Umair. I agree, with just one caveat. We have reservoirs of goodwill among common people even today. What prevents the governments from negotiating peace? Some would say the Pakistani army. That’s why I believe a formal peace agreement and an official end to the territorial dispute will be the real ice-breaker.

Regards,
Ganesh Prasad

Posted by prasadgc | Report as abusive

Umair:
>>Now back to barrier wall, do you really think the barrier wall will be useful

Yes – We can still have crossings from Wagah with passports, visas and et al. Do not see how that will be stopped by a fence.

>>a barrier wall 2200 km long? is it possible?

The Israeli wall is 700km+. We can build 3X that – should not be impossible.

>>True, Mumbai attacks were a tradegy (sic). But just look, Pakistan has to endure a Mumbai almost every month or so.

Exactly – my point is that I do not want that violence percolating into my country. Keep ur tragedies on ur side of the border. Thanks.

>>I would still argue, a barrier can provide you a false sense of security, real security will come when India and Pakistan normalize relations.

Perhaps but I want more security. U and people like u keep talking about balkanizing India, destroying it. I do not want to be destroyed. I like my mixed up diverse country – I think of it as a sort of Lata Mangeshkar and Mohd Rafi duet. Just for your info – Lata is Maharastrian Hindu and Rafi is Punjabi muslim. Their duets together are timeless and still tug at my heartstrings.

Posted by nvrforgetmbai | Report as abusive

The very fact that Umair is so opposed to the wall makes me think that it is the right track. :))

I think that formalising the LoC as the international border is a great idea. But I am not sure it will end the incursions/Let/JeM nuisance.

The Pakistani state is locked in a “fight to the death” battle with some of its terrorist groups. Hopefully they win but this remains to be seen. Do we wanna be dragged into that mess? And b’lve me easiest way for them to drag us is attack India and then unite their country against us.

As for reservoirs of goodwill – I think most Indians who live here in India (very cheeky of me :)) have run out of it. All I want is to be left alone. Pls leave me and my country alone. We are moving along the right path of pulling more people out of poverty, increasing spends on education and healthcare. While corruption is a bane, I see more positive than negatives to what we Indians are achieving.

Posted by nvrforgetmbai | Report as abusive

Umair said:

> True, Mumbai attacks were a tradegy. But just look, Pakistan has to endure a Mumbai almost every month or so.

I hate to point this out, Umair, but there is a big difference between the Mumbai attack in India and the “monthly Mumbai” attacks in Pakistan — the killers responsible are Pakistanis in both cases. Whether you call them LeT or TTP does not matter.

If a man trains his dogs to attack his neighbours and then complains that he has been bitten more than anyone else, how can he expect any sympathy? This is what is happening today. The sins of the Pakistani establishment are affecting the image of ordinary Pakistanis, who end up getting harrassed at foreign airports, and who get very grudging contributions from foreigners when they suffer from calamities like floods.

I’m not saying this to make you feel uncomfortable or defensive. I’m just inviting you to consider how Indians feel about Mumbai. After all, even though there are conspiracy theories in Pakistan about India being behind the terrorist attacks, this has never been proven, and most accept that the TTP and other “bad Taliban” are behind it. In contrast, the unplanned event of Kasab being captured alive was the smoking gun that proved the involvement of Pakistan in the Mumbai attack. So there is a HUGE difference and no moral equivalence as you are implying. Catch the guys behind the Mumbai attacks and all their accomplices up and down the chain, and you will find the guys behind the Mariott bombing as well.

We face a common enemy. Unfortunately, it seems to be elements of the army you much admire.

Regards,
Ganesh Prasad

Posted by prasadgc | Report as abusive

> I think most Indians who live here in India (very cheeky of me :)

Hey, hey, we may live outside, phir bhi dil hai Hindustani ;-)
(OK, I’m officially an Australian citizen and I think of myself as a world citizen – hence the fuzzy idealism, but you can’t take India out of the Indian, can you?)

Regards,
Ganesh Prasad

Posted by prasadgc | Report as abusive

nvrforgtmbai
If you support the wall and become happy, so let me go ahead and support it too. Yes, India must develop a barrier wall Israel style. Poor Pakistanis don’t cross the border into India to work daily, India does not control the lives of citizens of border villages. Pakistan is not as weak as Palestine, and India cannot resort to aggression like Israel since Pakistan’s Army, Navy and Air Force has the power to respond in kind.
In short lets not get the impression that anyone in Pakistan is desperately itching for peace with India. If you must have read the article shared by Mortal (NYTimes story regarding Pakistan arresting Taliban leaders). You will get a sense that ISI is a force to be reckoned with, it even used the American CIA for its purposes. I am not boasting here, but the point to make is Pakistan is waiting for the outcome of US war in Afghanistan. After that things will be clear.
Even the US has disagreements with Pakistan, US is a super power but still ISI is almost locked in a battle with it. Sometimes ISI cooperates, at others it is face to face with them. And all American assessment, their think tanks and military leaders have concluded that Pakistan being a nuclear state, a big muslim nation, a fairly trained military, that there should be engagement with Pakistan at all levels rather than confrontation.
In short, I am not a staunch believer that peace with India will start to bring immediate benefits for Pakistan. But that still Pakistan should try.
But as a common man, it seems to me that an Indian barrier wall should be a non-starter. If you support a barrier wall, I would take back my hand for friendship. Than it is better to let things shape on their own, like it has for past 60 years.

@Ganesh
“elements of Pakistan military”.
Pakistan Military has good relations with Washington and Brussels (US-NATO). There is close cooperation between Pakistan and US. I think you have to understand the fundamental problems between India and Pakistan. You have to listen to concerns of Pakistan Military and think why India is regarded as a threat. I stated already, the moment threat perception of Pakistan Army changes, Pakistan Military’s views regarding India will change.

Posted by Umairpk | Report as abusive

Umair:
>> If you support a barrier wall, I would take back my hand for friendship. Than it is better to let things shape on their own, like it has for past 60 years.

Why r u so worried about the wall? If ur intentions are peaceful and u have no intentions of breaching the border does it matter whether we have a fence or not. Esp since as u said “Poor Pakistanis don’t cross the border into India to work daily, India does not control the lives of citizens of border villages.”

The only reason to worry about the wall is if u intend to enter or send ur proxies into India. Tell me a legitimate reason not to have a wall.

As for ISI and the Pakistani army, I will truly admire them and u as a nation the day u kick US out of bases which they have inside Pakistan. What kind of sovereign nation has other country’s army bases? Are u a colony? Forget the drones, this is more serious attack on ur sovereignty.

Long time ago my ancestors chanted “Englishmen Quit India” or “Angrezon Bharat chodo”. Maybe it is time for u to say “Americans quit Pakistan” now.

Posted by nvrforgetmbai | Report as abusive

@”And for those Indians who think peace with Pakistan should not be given a chance because of Mumbai attacks in 2008″

Let me get the record straight here, it’s not just about Mumbai 2008. Your military establishment/ISI has been involved in many more terror attacks in Indian cities over the last few decades. The perpetrators of many of those attacks (Dawood Ibrahim, Azhar Mehmood, Haafiz Saeed etc) are unofficial ‘son-in-laws’ of your army/ISI. The only difference with Mumbai 2008 was that your establishment/ISI was caught red handed, in the act. The attacks inside Pakistan have no Indian involvement whatsoever & the perpetrators/attackers are Pakistanis, belonging to groups which were created/groomed by your establishment in the first place & that’s why you don’t get much sympathy for it, from the world. Let me ask you, how would you or other Pakistanis feel, if the perpetrators of the Islamabad bombing or other attacks in Pakistan were Indian & the were the state guests of the Indian Govt? That’s how the average Indian feels about Pakistan.
The bottomline is, that your establishment has the blood of a lot of inncocent Indian civilians on it’s hands & Indians have every right to be angry, detestful & supicious of your establishment. The Indian Govt should rightfully listen to & follow the voice of it’s citizens because that’s what democracy is all about. The important questions to be asked are: Does your army have the moral courage & will to do the right thing here? Does it have the guts to take on all the terror outfits, which it has created/supported over the years & wipe them off? Does it have the conviction to stop using terrorism as a state policy, towards the fullfillment of it’s nefarious designs in the region? The answers of these questions will ultimately decide the fate of India-Pakistan relations & that of the region as well.

Posted by Mortal1 | Report as abusive

> If you must have read the article shared by Mortal (NYTimes story regarding Pakistan arresting Taliban leaders). You will get a sense that ISI is a force to be reckoned with, it even used the American CIA for its purposes.

I got a very different impression from this. I got the impression that there is a very carefully managed series of leaks going on for some purpose. All of these news items (Wikileaks and now the Baradar arrest story) are old hat. Why are they being leaked now, in dripfeed fashion?

If I was in the ISI, I would be very afraid. These orchestrated leaks imply that someone powerful has it in for the organisation. It seems to me that the US is trying to manage public opinion ahead of a U-turn in its approach to Pakistan. It’s not easy to change position from “Pakistan is our ally in the war on terror” to “Pakistan is our enemy”, so these carefully planted stories are meant to soften us up for the eventual about-face, because it will then come in response to popular pressure.

If you read the popular responses to this story (as well as the earlier Wikileaks expose), you will see that the strategy is having its intended effect. They’ve got the mob baying for Pakistani blood. The next step is a congressional enquiry, which will put the onus on the administration to do something. Whatever that is, it cannot be good for the ISI.

Regards,
Ganesh Prasad

Posted by prasadgc | Report as abusive

@Mortal,

Azhar Mehmood was a fine bowler. Probably you mean Maulana Masood Azahar. :)

PS: Sorry, I don’t comment on such things but its twice in a row. :)

Posted by Seth | Report as abusive

Ganesh said:
“These orchestrated leaks imply that someone powerful has it in for the organisation. It seems to me that the US is trying to manage public opinion ahead of a U-turn in its approach to Pakistan. ”

Speaking of carefully planted stories, Afghan ministers suggests US support of Pakistan ‘strategic mistake’

http://www.dawn.com/wps/wcm/connect/dawn -content-library/dawn/news/world/04-us-s upport-pakistan-spanta-qs-04

Posted by Seth | Report as abusive

@”If you must have read the article shared by Mortal (NYTimes story regarding Pakistan arresting Taliban leaders). You will get a sense that ISI is a force to be reckoned with, it even used the American CIA for its purposes”

This is what bothers me most about Pakistanis like you: You guys are proud & boastful of things which others would generally be ashamed of. The refferenced article clearly shows that your army/ISI is one of the biggest road-blocks towards peace in afghanistan & the lengths at which it would go, to stab it’s friends in the back to fulfill it’s own goals.

Here’s another one for you to be proud of:

“Pakistan is the Afghan war’s real aggressor” – Washington Post

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/con tent/article/2010/08/22/AR2010082202272. html

Posted by Mortal1 | Report as abusive

@”Azhar Mehmood was a fine bowler. Probably you mean Maulana Masood Azahar.” Posted by Seth

thanks for the correction. will keep it in mind :)

Posted by Mortal1 | Report as abusive

Umairpk: “And all American assessment, their think tanks and military leaders have concluded that Pakistan being a nuclear state, a big muslim nation, a fairly trained military, that there should be engagement with Pakistan at all levels rather than confrontation.”

If this was really true, then how did Richard Armitage tell Musharraf that “You are either with us or against us,” and threatened to bomb Pakistan back to stone age? And why did Musharraf, despite having all the goodies you have suggested, drop everything and switch sides? He was the commander in chief of your mighty military. Definitely he knew the strengths and weaknesses much better than you do. If made that strategic switch, it means he considered the American threat to be real. Very real. The US could have caused as much damage as the floods now to Pakistan or worse in 2001. And it has enough international clout to deny any reconstruction attempts. Pakistan’s military power is just enough to stand up to India. It really cannot take on the US. In the case of Afghanistan, if the US simply waged a war, completed the assault until Taliban and Al Qaeda were wiped out (without making a deal with Musharraf to let them escape), and left the region without rebuilding Afghanistan, things would have settled by now.

Nveforgetmumbai: There are lot of hurt feelings in the sub-continent. Those who were directly affected, like yourself, have much stronger emotions and reactions to the developments. If you ask those who died at the hands of Congress goons in 1984 anti-Sikh riots, they have not forgotten those days and the injustics beyond that. I have relatives who died in New Delhi, when the “giant tree fell and shook the earth.” And then there were those in my father’s generation who were severly wounded in their hearts due to partition. They all passed away with those memories. We need to move on. Pakistan is paying its karma already for supporting those kinds of offensives. Building a wall would not help improve matters. Those who attacked Mumbai came by sea. These elements train to break through barriers. Walls are not needed now. Bridges are. Walls will further widen and alienate moderate people on both sides. Bridges will bring them closer. Moderates have to stay united. That is the most important thing. Mumbai attacks got exacerbated by the ineptness of the Indian police and security system. There were enough warnings from the CIA prior to the attacks. India has been on a responsive mode rather than on a proactive mode. The reason why Israel succeeds in thwarting terrorist attacks mostly is because they are proactive. How much does it take to knock out Dawood Ibrahim? I think the RAW is using him as a mole inside Pakistan. If RAW wants, it can finish him off and his entire entourage. There are some things that these intelligence agencies do that the common man simply cannot understand.

Anyway, I think we should encourage the normal Pakistani citizens to see the light rather than antagonize them. They will fall into the hands of the elements which are trying to gain control inside Pakistan. And I could, I’d air drop the Thackerays into the wastlands of North Waziristan and watch them being hunted down.

Posted by KPSingh01 | Report as abusive

KPSingh01 said,
“And I could, I’d air drop the Thackerays into the wastlands of North Waziristan and watch them being hunted down.”

Count me in. We could also throw Muthaliks and Togadias to sweeten the deal.

Posted by Seth | Report as abusive

@Ganesh, Singh, Umair, Seth, Mortal,

Guys, I think in the long run, a good percentage of Pakistani’s do want to have a real peace with India and do want to resolve issues.

Pakistan may not be in the same place that India is, to want to consider peace or reconciliation, as it seems Pakistan is almost 25 years behind in being able to realize and accept the submission to peace, oddly enough peace and submission is the meaning of Islam isn’t it?

Pakistani’s may not be ready to want peace as they need to deal with their demons and stare them right in the mirror, or the face of them, which ever they are.

In the mean time, I agree with a previous poster, we should possibly consider building a monstrously tall and long barrier wall between the two countries, until Pakistanis want to come to Indians and have a comprehensive, formal, iron clad peace agreement.

India will never refuse peace with Pakistan, as long as Pakistan does not come negotiating wearing a suicide vest or a knife hidden behind the back.

Indians are through being intimidated and blackmailed and pushed around. India has the muscle, the inertia, the money, the resources, talent and perseverance to weather almost anything. We do not in fact need to submit to anything, but for the sake of peace, we are prepared to do the right thing, if Pakistan chooses to be an honest broker of peace.

Kashmir, water rights and all issues can be solved easily as long as the biggest road blocks to peace can be removed, that being self-serving Pak Army mafia, corrupt civilian government and the extremist jihadi’s. Those two institutions are not brokers of peace, but brokers of war and purveyors of misery, hate and injustice for all.

Both Indian and Pakistani citizen’s lives can be enriched and made happier, if both countries start to do tit for tat military draw downs and start diverting more money to fund civilian projects to keep their own citizens busy with good paying jobs.

In the mean time, it is perhaps wise for Pakistan to let the U.S. and UK mentor Pakistani politicians, judiciary and show them proper responsible governance and get them being in the habit of being accountable and transparent with their people. No gov’t is perfect, but in the west, the corruption is far less. At the same time, the Fauji’s have to understand that they do not own Pakistan or its resources, the resources belong to the Pakistani citizens, for their future, their education and their children’s.

If true responsible governance can come from Pakistan, which will come only by getting rid of the Jihadi’s, corrupt Army ownership of the country and reformation of corrupt civilian politics, India will always be ready to help and make peace for all wars, help rebuild Pakistan and possibly enter into a partnership of free trade for mutual benefit.

Both sides stand to gain a lot, if those three Pakistani institutions were cast aside and reformed from the ground up with mentorship from British and American Governance.

I see a lot of Pakistani’s here criticizing Zardari and calling him Mr. 10%, but that is ridiculous, as you can call the Pak Army Mr. 100%, as this political institution is has been existing due to its gluttony and feasting on the Pakistani’s blood, U.S. Aid, IMF, and others for decades and this parasitic existence must cease and transform into something more legal, ethical and productive.

Posted by G-W | Report as abusive

KP Singh said:

> If you ask those who died at the hands of Congress goons in 1984 anti-Sikh riots, they have not forgotten those days and the injustics beyond that. I have relatives who died in New Delhi, when the “giant tree fell and shook the earth.”

I remember the 1984 riots and feel very bad about that, not least because the perpetrators were never brought to justice. History repeated itself with the 2002 Gujarat riots. We’re not a true democracy until we can deliver justice.

It’s perhaps a testament to the forbearance of the Sikhs rather than to the efficiency of official security that the trio responsible for the 1984 outrage got away without paying for it with their own lives.

Your own example (and that of the Sikh community) of being able to let go and move on is one of the finest. Compared to the loss of one’s own relatives, surely a past military humiliation and wounded national pride are a trifle. I hope Pakistanis are able to move on past 1971, otherwise things will never settle down.

Regards,
Ganesh Prasad

Posted by prasadgc | Report as abusive

Myra:

If Pakistan does not give a damn to billions given by its ally US, what is the value of $5million by India, perceived as its enemy? NOTHING according to me.
It is being naive to connect this with Kashmir and think that “India take advantage of Pakistan’s current vulnerability to impose its will on Kashmir?” Pakistan will rather be over sensitive and continue to keep its K-policy.

@The question — at least as posed to me from a Pakistani perspective – is this. Will India show its sincerity towards peace by helping Pakistan recover from the biggest natural disaster in its history? Or will India take advantage of Pakistan’s current vulnerability to impose its will on Kashmir? It is a question which is at once haunted by the ghosts of 1971, and infused with an optimism that history does not have to repeat itself.”
–I will say that I agree with you about “Historical parallels can be misleading”. As others have commented that India and Pakistan in 1971 and 2010 are not the same.

Lastly, I think as posters we should analyze less from what we get out of Pakistan by helping the needy in need of hour. There is too much political analysis and most of it is unncessary.

While $5Indian aid may not make India as Pakistan’s friend, it has become SHOCKINGLY clear that China is not a TRUE friend of Pakistan unless we want to forget for a moment that friend in need is a friend indeed and the claims by Pakistan and Pakistanis that China is an all weather friend of Pakistan.

also it is good that Indian aid has been accepted else victims will label Pakistani politicians as existential threat to them.

Posted by RajeevK | Report as abusive

@And for those Indians who think peace with Pakistan should not be given a chance because of Mumbai attacks in 2008.”
–Umairpk

–Umair, this is not the relevant blog for me to tell you that:

1. Mumbai is just one of those rare instances where a terrorist was caught alive and the trail of evidence pointed towards Pakistan. Besides Sikh militancy in Punjab (~21000 deaths) are all courtsy pakistan (refer to our discussion on the subject and ur claim that pakistan was almost ready to do Bangladesh to Punjab)

2. I have heard this enough that Pakistan has suffered 100s of Mumbais. THis is absolutely wrong unless u get carried away by your emotions. Difference is that India is not sending terrorists across the border nor are any terrorist supported by India. They are your old friends who now dislike you. Never ever say this to an Indian. A genuine person will sympathize over the death of innocents even in the absence of such parallels.

Posted by RajeevK | Report as abusive

I believe it’s “Those who cannot LEARN from the past are condemned to repeat it.”

Posted by medha | Report as abusive

@nvrforgetmbai
Search ‘cold start doctrine’ on google, its an Indian Army doctrine whereby in case of war with Pakistan, IBGs(Integrated battle groups) of mechanized units and infantry, along with close air support by IAF would penetrate Pakistan and literally try to cut the country into two halves. In turn, Pakistan Army follows a doctrine of ‘offensive defense’ not to wait for India to attack, rather to proactively carry out a preemptive strike and capture maximum territory as a negotiating chip later.
Your suggested barrier to keep India safe would actually be the biggest safety for Pakistan. In any event, by the time Indian Army would mobilize, take down the barrier and advance, Pakistani Army would halt the advancing units from well dug defensive positions. From a military point of view too, it would be stupid to erect a barrier wall. If Indian Army never plans to wage a war against Pakistan, that is best :) And as to why US has bases in Pakistan? They actually don’t, only some US marines guard the American embassy in Islamabad. Rest 200 American instructors are training the Frontier Corps Paramilitary. Here is an idea of other clandestine US-Pak cooperation and joint ops:
C.I.A. and Pakistan Work Together, Warily
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/02/25/world/ asia/25intel.html?_r=1&scp=3&sq=ISI%20vs %20CIA&st=cse

@Mortal
Rangin Dadfar Spanta is a clown, how dare he states something like that. I am not sure what Richard Armitage said in 2001, but in 2010 in National Defense University in islamabad, a PAKMIL officer asked defense secretary Robert Gates whether ‘you are with us or against us?’ and reply was ‘ofcourse we are with you’. Here’s the link

Gates Sees Fallout From Troubled Ties With Pakistan
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/01/24/world/ asia/24military.html?scp=3&sq=Robert%20G ates%20in%20Defense%20university%20Islam abad%20&st=cse
And add to that, Mr. Dadfar has no moral basis to state “US support of Pakistan a strategic mistake”. President Karzai was given every support since 2001, today his own brother Ahmed Wali Karzai governor of Kandahar has become a narco-criminal and drug trafficker, his reputation in Afghanistan is too bad. Afghan government is at best corrupt, inefficient and incapable (American and NATO assessment). Mr. Dadfar realized it now, but US ambassador in Kabul sent that cable to Washington months back stating Karzai is not capable to be a strategic partner. And Pakistan on the other hand is a Muslim country, much bigger than Afghanistan and a nuclear power. Ask any American official, as to which is more important, victory in war in Afghanistan or stability in neighboring nuclear Pakistan. The answer is they dont want victory at the cost of Pakistan. The argument goes that if US wins in Afghanistan, but in the process neighbouring Pakistan is severely destabilized endangering its nuclear weapons, that would be a disaster. The US policy is engagement with Pakistan at all levels. And I agree, Pakistan has wisely looked after its interests, what is wrong about it?

@Ganesh
‘carefully planted wikileaks stories and ISI should be very afraid’.
-Those whose job is to play with fire are not afraid of it. US has the firepower, they can threaten us. But we have extensive experience of dealing with them. US set up shop in Pakistan way back, Gary Powers used Peshawar airbase to take-off in his U-2 spy plane on a reconnaissance mission over USSR, was shot and captured, and Pakistan was threatened. Henry Kissinger flew in to Beijing from Islamabad airport to establish diplomatic ties with communist China. Zibignew Brezinski visited ‘Mujahideen’ in training camps in Khyber pass and told them to go back and take their villages from evil Soviets. Charlie Wilson met the Mujahideen and lobbied in congress to get them truckloads of stinger heat seeking missiles to shoot down Soviet gunship helicopters. Jalaludin Haqqani met President Ronald Reagan in the whitehouse, today he is CIAs enemy no.1. And this shadowy war was outsourced to ISI, Pakistan paid the price with anarchy in Afghanistan, refugees, drugs and AK-47s. Sorry for my history lesson, but my point is CIA and ISI know each other. And ISI is as good or bad as the MI5, CIA, KGB, Mossad, RAW etc.
So its not upto Pakistan, it is actually India which has to make up its mind if you want peaceful relations.

Posted by Umairpk | Report as abusive

@Mortal
@”If you must have read the article shared by Mortal (NYTimes story regarding Pakistan arresting Taliban leaders). You will get a sense that ISI is a force to be reckoned with, it even used the American CIA for its purposes”

This is what bothers me most about Pakistanis like you: You guys are proud & boastful of things which others would generally be ashamed of. The refferenced article clearly shows that your army/ISI is one of the biggest road-blocks towards peace in afghanistan & the lengths at which it would go, to stab it’s friends in the back to fulfill it’s own goals.

-Mortal infact the ‘CIA and Pakistan work together warily’ link I posted above is a good backgrounder to the NYTimes link you posted. And I quote:

“In the three decades since the C.I.A. and the ISI teamed up to funnel weapons to Afghan militias fighting the Soviets, the two spy services have soldiered though a co-dependent, yet suspicious relationship. C.I.A. officers in Islamabad rely on the Pakistani spy service for its network of informants. But they are wary of the ISI’s longstanding ties to militants like the Taliban, which Pakistani spies have seen as a necessary ally to blunt archrival India’s influence in Afghanistan.

The ISI gets millions of dollars in United States aid from its American counterpart (which allowed the Pakistan spy service to develop a counterterrorism division), yet is suspicious that the Americans and the Indians might be playing their own “double game” against Pakistan. ”

-So it gets too confusing, CIA depends on ISI but does not trust it, ISI benefits from CIA but does not serve it. In both cases, problem is India. ISI does not cut ties to millitants becoz it wants to cut Indian influence in Afghanistan. ISI does not fully support CIA becoz it suspects Indo-US alliance against Pakistan.
And no one has anything to be proud of, these are hard facts and realities. Do Americans feel proud of:
1.Iran contra affair.
2.Overthrow of PM Mossadeq in Iran.
3.Overthrow of President Arbenz Guatemala
4.Operation Cyclone biggest in CIA history-Afghan war 80s
Here’s something you should be ashamed of too:
The Secret Government_ CIA Operations
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XO_u2NC92 PA

Lastly, in my opinion If India-Pakistan relations normalize, one way or the other a lot of things would change.

Posted by Umairpk | Report as abusive

@Mortal
“The refferenced article clearly shows that your army/ISI is one of the biggest road-blocks towards peace in afghanistan & the lengths at which it would go, to stab it’s friends in the back to fulfill it’s own goals. ”

-The referenced video clearly that you Pentagon/CIA is one of the biggest road-block towards peace in WHOLE WORLD & lengths at which it would go, to create fear among American public, control them in the name of homeland security to fulfill it’s own goals.

Posted by Umairpk | Report as abusive

@Umair
“Your suggested barrier to keep India safe would actually be the biggest safety for Pakistan. In any event, by the time Indian Army would mobilize, take down the barrier and advance, Pakistani Army would halt the advancing units from well dug defensive positions.”

Exactly – so we can seperate lives perfectly well. Given that it benefits u more than us (as per ur own words) u should support a full barrier.

BTW Umair, u are very prone to drag in the 1980ies – Soviet Mujahideen et al. Its 20 yrs gone – give it a rest. Move on. The world has.

Posted by nvrforgetmbai | Report as abusive

Rephrase:

-The referenced video clearly shows that your Pentagon/CIA is one of the biggest road-block towards peace in WHOLE WORLD & lengths at which it would go, to create fear among American public, control them in the name of homeland security to fulfill it’s own goals.

Posted by Umairpk | Report as abusive

nvrforgetmbai
“BTW Umair, u are very prone to drag in the 1980ies – Soviet Mujahideen et al. Its 20 yrs gone – give it a rest. Move on. The world has.”

-Thank you for the kind suggestion, but I am citizen of a ‘sovereign’ nation and fully recognize my right of freedom of speech and expression. Internet has no barriers so please bear with me while I sharpen my history knowledge. :)

Posted by Umairpk | Report as abusive

nvrforgetmbai
“As for reservoirs of goodwill – I think most Indians who live here in India (very cheeky of me :) ) have run out of it. All I want is to be left alone. Pls leave me and my country alone. We are moving along the right path of pulling more people out of poverty, increasing spends on education and healthcare. While corruption is a bane, I see more positive than negatives to what we Indians are achieving.”
“I am not a hawk – I would like peace. But I have to live in the world as it is not in some ideal world and we have to protect our people first.”

- So you dismember Pakistan in 1971 devastate us by cutting our country into half. You detonate a nuke in 1974 and we are threatened. We decide to eat grass and build our own nuke, never to let you threaten us again. In the process Kasab’s family had no money to educate him, because of 50% of budget went into Army/nuclear weapons and debt servicing. Kasabs family had no healthcare, he was picked up my militant organizations who trained him as terrorist, used him and just paid him a few thousand rupees.
You are pulling people from poverty in India, for decades you send people into poverty in Pakistan. By initiating a costly arms race in missiles and nukes. Nothing left to educate people. No one has a doubt that India is rising, but my worry is if Pakistan falls, you will be in trouble too. We are not begging you, to give a helping hand. We will help ourselves, but just telling you what happened to Pakistan when Afghanistan fell.
The idea of Indian Army withdrawal is excellent, it will free up Pakistan Army relocate it to fight terrorists, reduce Pakistan’s expenses on defense and free up resources for education/economy. So that never again Kasab’s younger brother come and kill people in Mumbai. right now Kasab’s brother has no money to study, becoz it goes to maintain the Army.
In a way your barrier worry is true, but you dont have to worry about it now. Maybe our future generations will pay the price the way we are paying because our forefathers failed to forge peace. You dont want a future for your children which is unsafe, I dont want a future for next generation with missed economic opportunities.
It is normal for you to draw strength from israel, they live in their own fantasy world. A little oasis surrounded by a mess, good luck with your wish.
Lastly, in past we have had exchange of artrillery fire in Kashmir when just barbed wire was being erected by one side. Have you forgotten Kargil? What makes you think a barrier wall can be erected between my and your house when the boundry is disputed. Are you a hawk calling for war, skirmishes in Kashmir?
In presence of Kashmir dispute, Siachin, water issues, dams issue, Sir Creek, etc lets add to the list a controversial barrier wall. Congratulations, we have taken one step back.

Posted by Umairpk | Report as abusive

It seems the ghosts of 1971 war will haunt us for a long time, and more astonishing is people don’t even recognize what 1971 means to Pakistan. A black year, a turning point, initiating a costly nuclear arms race, sowing the seeds to animosity, birth of ISI and anti-Indian mentality, 90K POWs, humiliation, a burning revenge, bleed India with thousand cuts, strategic depth, strategic encirclement, strategic parity, low intensity conflict.
Courtesy Shri Indra Gandhi Ji.
And Pakistan looses too, if Pakistan’s economy doesnt recover all will be lost.

Posted by Umairpk | Report as abusive

I was not even born in 1971 :)

Posted by nvrforgetmbai | Report as abusive

But Umair seriously, India GDP is $1.2 trillion, Pak GDP is $165m. If we decide to spend 5% of our GDP as defense budget u will have to spend 36% of our GDP on defense to match us. U cannot keep up.

We would love peace but Kasab and his brothers should not be my problem. If u think that spending on defense is more important than educating Kasab and his brothers, that is a problem of incorrect priorities as a nation for u to solve not us. But if u keep sending Kasab his brothers into my country, we will be forced to put up a barrier wall. I do not see any alternative.

The only reason, I even visit this site is to understand the mentality and structure of a country that thinks it is fine to send off young men to kill innocent people at train stations and hotels in Mumbai.

Ur rants seem to indicate it is part of a never ending jihad against India which I find intolerable.

“Naa khud khush rahoge na doosron ko rehne doge”

Posted by nvrforgetmbai | Report as abusive

BTW the only way ur GDP % would work if u do the usual Islamic math of every Pakistani $ is equal to 10 Indian $. :)

Posted by nvrforgetmbai | Report as abusive

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/3df72c72-a640- 11df-8767-00144feabdc0.html

It is feverish and flooded but Pakistan can yet thrive.

Posted by Umairpk | Report as abusive

Umair,

You really get me interested with your theories on India and the threat it poses to you. You mention Bangla Desh as an example and of course your favourite theme song – nukes. Now will you please just once admit that Bangla Desh happened because the Pakistani elite – Bhutto and Yahya in cahoots – failed their country miserably through greed and lust for power. had the election result been accepted democratically – there would have been no Bangla Desh. On my part I agree that India took the opportunity to reduce the threat from Pakistan by half.

Now, other than that t you keep talking and talking on and on about the threat from India. When did India start a war with Pakistan? Who intiated 1947, 65, 71 in the West, Kargil and Siachin????????

So now you know why Indian troops cannot be removed from our Western border. We have trusted Pakistan too often to our sorrow.

Posted by DaraIndia | Report as abusive

nvrfrgtmbai
“The only reason, I even visit this site is to understand the mentality and structure of a country that thinks it is fine to send off young men to kill innocent people at train stations and hotels in Mumbai. ”

-Firstly, I was also born a decade after that war. But my father fought it on behalf of Pakistan Air Force then. Secondly, its good you want to learn about Pakistan. Pakistan matters. Here’s the link:

Look both ways before attacking Pakistan
http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/c1ab1cc2-9ff6- 11df-8cc5-00144feabdc0.html

Lastly, no one thinks what happened in Mumbai was ‘ok’. One by one you must correct your perceptions.

Posted by Umairpk | Report as abusive

..just to add. The only reason I visit this site is often I find a lot of propaganda against Pakistan on the web. I try to counter and answer who ever I can remaining impartial and independent. I have my own views and express them freely.
But I urge you to visit and participate in the discussion. After some time you will get to come to terms with Mumbai tradegy. Terrorism is a very complex phenomenon, and we need to get back to the root of modern terrorism.

Posted by Umairpk | Report as abusive

Umair said:
“It seems the ghosts of 1971 war will haunt us for a long time, and more astonishing is people don’t even recognize what 1971 means to Pakistan. A black year, a turning point, initiating a costly nuclear arms race, sowing the seeds to animosity, birth of ISI and anti-Indian mentality, 90K POWs, humiliation, a burning revenge, bleed India with thousand cuts, strategic depth, strategic encirclement, strategic parity, low intensity conflict.
Courtesy Shri Indra Gandhi Ji.”

Yes, 1971 was black year for Pakistan indeed! It was the year your Pakistani army committed the worst genocide on your own Muslim brothers ever since the inception of Islam. It was the year when democracy was brutally murdered and the seeds of extremism were sown that are giving bitter fruits now. As for India’s contribution, its been discussed in this blog umpteen times that India joined very late to the “party” only when refugee count from east Pakistan became insurmountable and threatened Indian resources. And re: 90K POWs, better for them that they surrendered to Indian Army for Mukti Bahini might have torn them apart instead of returning them safe.

You said “burning revenge” – well, do you see any “revenge” so far? “burning” everyone is witnessing!

PS: Shri Indra Gandhi should be Shreemati Indira Gandhi.

Posted by Seth | Report as abusive

“It is feverish and flooded but Pakistan can yet thrive.”

There is nothing special about Pakistan or India about surviving. It is the basic nature of LIFE to survive and thrive. Life grows (in the form for grass) right where Death has been buried. Deriving constant pride out of the basic properties of your million-year old DNA is so un-special.

Posted by Seth | Report as abusive

Umair:
>>Lastly, no one thinks what happened in Mumbai was ‘ok’. One by one you must correct your perceptions.
>>So that never again Kasab’s younger brother come and kill people in Mumbai. right now Kasab’s brother has no money to study, becoz it goes to maintain the Army.
>>In the process Kasab’s family had no money to educate him, because of 50% of budget went into Army/nuclear weapons and debt servicing. Kasabs family had no healthcare, he was picked up my militant organizations who trained him as terrorist, used him and just paid him a few thousand rupees.

Put together, these statements are logically inconsistent.

Posted by nvrforgetmbai | Report as abusive

>>After some time you will get to come to terms with Mumbai tradegy.

I will never come to terms with Mumbai tragedy. I am moving on but people who think it is fine for young men to traipse the world killing infidels are monsters.

>>Terrorism is a very complex phenomenon, and we need to get back to the root of modern terrorism.

What are these root causes? Why are Pakistanis behind attacks in India and the West – 7/7, Faisal Shazad etc. A sense of victimhood and old grievances is all that I get.

To the point on GDP comparision look at Singapore and Malaysia. Both got independence same time. SG was then partitioned from Malaysia.
SG had no natural resources – except for a port and its people. Malaysia had larger size, plantations, oil, bigger population all the benefits. To anyone at that time, it was simple to assume that Malaysia would do very well and SG would fail.

Now 45 years after partition
SG- per capita GDP $37000, GDP – 177 bn, population- 5mn
Malaysia per capital GDP $7000, GDP 190 bn, pop- 28 mn

U could have become a Singapore to our stumbling state as Malaysia.

And in case u had any doubts on SG military abilities, the country has one of the most advanced military forces in East Asia. All men undergo 2 years of military trg at age 18 and called back for reserve duty every year. SG can hold its own against their bigger neighbours.

Posted by nvrforgetmbai | Report as abusive

@G-W
“we should possibly consider building a monstrously tall and long barrier wall between the two countries, until Pakistanis want to come to Indians and have a comprehensive, formal, iron clad peace agreement.”

The proposed “wall” would definitely stop infiltration to some extent but it also would destroy any possibility of peace and friendly relations in longer future. This would alienate the people even further and would only encourage the perpetrators of hatred and animosity. The only way to win a war is not fight it at all. There is greater benefit for India in having real peace instead of having indifference with respect to Pakistan.

“India will never refuse peace with Pakistan, as long as Pakistan does not come negotiating wearing a suicide vest or a knife hidden behind the back.”

There is definitely trust-deficit on both sides. I’m afraid we’ll have to wait till a stronger democratic Pakistan emerges and rein in rogue elements in their military.

Ultimately, the future of Pakistan lies in the hands of its people. Its for them to decide what gives them contentment – their neighbor bleeding with thousand cuts or progress and prosperity of their country. Of course, same question applies to every Indian as well.

Posted by Seth | Report as abusive

And just BTW, u are yet to give me a logical explanation of why u oppose the wall given that it benefits your military strategy not the Indian one.

the only reason u have for opposing the wall is that it prevents u from infiltrating into Indian territories with people like Kasab.

Any other explanation?

Posted by nvrforgetmbai | Report as abusive

Umair,

You’ve made a number of points that I believe reflect the popular opinion among a significant segment of Pakistanis. I’d like to analyse the various components of this worldview, if you don’t mind.

I think we hear loud and clear the message that Pakistanis are suspicious of Indian intentions. We don’t have to go into the reasons behind it now. Let’s just analyse the feeling of suspicion and break it up into its various strands.

Let’s separate out the element of violence first. If we can guarantee through some means that there will be no violence employed by India against Pakistan (i.e., no nuke attack, no dismemberment, etc.), will there still be any residual suspicion?

I remember somebody here saying Pakistan will not accept a “subservient” role to India. Does that mean that a peaceful situation where India, Pakistan and the other countries of South Asia share a prosperous free trade zone would also be unacceptable to Pakistan because India’s relative size would make it the dominant player in that economy?

There seem to be two independent issues – “hostility” and “dominance on account of size”. Hostility can be ended. Dominance on account of size is something India can’t help. So is Pakistan’s wariness related to the threat of India’s power to damage, or is it an unwillingness to play second fiddle even in a peaceful and cordial situation?

Can you please try and answer my question honestly? I will not judge you. I’m trying to understand how other people think.

Regards,
Ganesh Prasad

Posted by prasadgc | Report as abusive

nvrforgetmbai
“Put together, these statements are logically inconsistent.”

-Let me rephrase what I was trying to state. Simply put, that Pakistan has a huge problem at its hands. On one hand there are young boys who are from poor families. They can’t afford school, the government has no system to provide for their education. On the other hand a weak Pakistani economy doesnt produce enough jobs for educated Pakistanis let alone absorb these uneducated youth. Then comes extremism, these youth are targeted and picked up by banned militant organizations.
When the government spends huge sums on defense, debt servicing etc. Nothing is left for social sectors, health and education facilities are non-existent in Pakistan’s areas which are suffering from militancy.

Now the role of India? Why is Pakistan forced to keep a large Army? because of Indian threat. Why is Pakistan supposed to build atomic plants, nuclear reactors, produce plutonium, uranium, nuclear weapons, missile systems? Because India is also a nuclear state and we feel threatened. An arms race between the two nations makes things worse.

“What are these root causes? Why are Pakistanis behind attacks in India and the West – 7/7, Faisal Shazad etc. A sense of victimhood and old grievances is all that I get. ”

-I would let Rakesh Saxena answer this one, read his article titled:
Pakistan and the Myth of Islamic Terrorism
http://www.gather.com/viewArticle.action  ?articleId=281474977220041

And now this:

provinces
Swat school seeks to turn boys from Taliban
http://www.dawn.com/wps/wcm/connect/dawn -content-library/dawn/news/pakistan/prov inces/12-swat+school+seeks+to+turn+boys+ from+taliban–bi-04

“I will never come to terms with Mumbai tragedy. I am moving on but people who think it is fine for young men to traipse the world killing infidels are monsters.”

-I hope you understand that a few terrorists do not represent the majority. It is absolutely unacceptable and appalling for anyone to kill innocent people.

Posted by Umairpk | Report as abusive

Seth/KP Singh

Umair cannot match your deal of dropping “Thackrays, Muthaliks and Togadias” by asking for same fate for Hafiz Sayeed and Masood Azahar. Ask him. he will be keep quiet. Ask him to lynch TTP guy, he will do it.

Posted by chakde | Report as abusive

Umair:
“What are these root causes? Why are Pakistanis behind attacks in India and the West – 7/7, Faisal Shazad etc. A sense of victimhood and old grievances is all that I get. ”

-I would let Rakesh Saxena answer this one, read his article titled:
Pakistan and the Myth of Islamic Terrorism
http://www.gather.com/viewArticle.action   ?articleId=281474977220041

I read the article but am still puzzled. It explains a lot but leaves some pieces missing. Pls help me understand. There are several people in India who are even more poor than most Pakistanis. Places in UP, Bihar are sub Saharan in conditions. We do not have these boys picking up guns and fighting Pakistan.

A lot of these people just migrate to cities like Mumbai and work at unskilled jobs in manufacturing or services such as taxi drivers, construction workers etc etc. They earn money and send back – most of Mumbai is made up of migrants such as me. I was born and brought up in Delhi but am spending my working life in Mumbai.

Despite the destitution in those areas (though improving somewhat) we do not see people taking to violence.

“Then comes extremism, these youth are targeted and picked up by banned militant organizations.”

Why do u allow these people any sphere of influence? Pak army + police + ISI is certain to know who these people are. Why don’t u just clamp down on them. Problem will get sorted out. What am I missing?

BTW, I really appreciate it when u explain stuff logically and cooly like post above. Wish I could reco ur post- I would.

Posted by nvrforgetmbai | Report as abusive

nvrforgetmbai
Lets close the debate on the barrier wall, by all means it should be there. Anything that gives you a sense of security should be done, so that you can feel safe.

But as you seem to find a logic and reason in everything, just remember a house has four walls. You dont just have a wall at front, you have to watch your backyard. Now you will start building up walls around Bangladesh, Sri Lankan, China and cover every inch of your border?

But again, wall is not a big problem. ye itni badi samasya nahi hey. I know as a logical person it would not make a difference that is why I thought it would not help. If you think it should, maybe you are right.

Posted by Umairpk | Report as abusive

Umair:

“But as you seem to find a logic and reason in everything”

I logically explained my stand for the wall – security as it prevenets incursions by hostile entities. Plus, it benefits Pakistan military strategy as u yourself said – “Your suggested barrier to keep India safe would actually be the biggest safety for Pakistan. In any event, by the time Indian Army would mobilize, take down the barrier and advance, Pakistani Army would halt the advancing units from well dug defensive positions.”

U should logically explain why the wall should not be built. Thats all.

>>-I hope you understand that a few terrorists do not represent the majority. It is absolutely unacceptable and appalling for anyone to kill innocent people.

Thanks for saying this. Much appreciated.

Posted by nvrforgetmbai | Report as abusive

nvrforgetmbai
“Why do u allow these people any sphere of influence? Pak army + police + ISI is certain to know who these people are. Why don’t u just clamp down on them. Problem will get sorted out. What am I missing? ”

-Yes Pak Army know who they are, if you talk about Taliban yes Pakistan Army is fighting with all strength. Look up “Operation Rah-e-Rast” (Straight Path) and Operation Rah-e-Nijat (Path to salvation) As I mentioned many young officers and men embraced martyrdom. Terrorists hide in rough terrain, it is difficult to evict them. Watch this:
Pakistan’s War: On the Front Line
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kQB-IgktV EM
watch all three parts. by Aljazeera.

And when you talk to your colleagues, tell them there are many working class Pakistanis who share your views, aspirations etc. That there are many Pakistanis who oppose what happened in Mumbai in 2008.

Posted by Umairpk | Report as abusive

Umair said:

> ye itni badi samasya nahi hey.

It’s amazing how we can communicate in not one but two languages and yet have so many misunderstandings! LOL

Regards,
Ganesh Prasad

Posted by prasadgc | Report as abusive

After reading comments on this article by indian/indian origin people is it any sense left in them to come out of their highhorse and see the ground realities at all.They have mind set against Pakistan.Whenever or where ever the have a chance to bash Pakistan,Islam and Muslims they wear cap on their eyes and blindly fallow the hindumentality of cast system.They think they are the superior and a bhagvans gift to this world.An other reason is the creation of Pakistan in 1947,which a thorn in their flesh.Because we are a barrier to their dream of akhand bharat,it is their dream is rule all of Asia.
But they forget the history,which tells us they for to be ruled by foreigners and can’t be rulers themselve.Remember how big you may be,(size does not matter) an aunt can kill an elephant in a second.Pakistan may be small compare to india.But will power of people is strong.Therefore don’t threat us with your size and wealth,we will be there forever and don’t forgett more than 75% of your people live below poverty-line.
When you are going to wake up to the atrocities being committed by the terorist occupying indian army in Jamu & Kashmir.Are you are just blind and dumb to say anything about those innocent kids are being killed by your so called world’s biggest democracy terrorist army and a state target killing,raping and robbery committed by the army.Condem them for the sake of humanity please.

Posted by Sardar1 | Report as abusive

I’d be interested to know what people think of Myra’s third suggestion in this article.

“Thirdly, there is the potential for trade through more open borders which could do more to revitalise Pakistan’s economy than any amount of foreign aid. But that is a tricky one – when it comes to financial gain countries tend to get very ruthless about promoting their own interests through trade, the British East India Company being an early case in point. For an indication of which way the wind is blowing, do watch how New Delhi responds to any European Union initiative to lower tariffs on Pakistani textile exports since this is one where India’s own textile industry could be undercut.”

Does charity start from home of neighbor these days?

Posted by Seth | Report as abusive

Umairpk, nvrforgetmumbai,

We all need to find a long term solution so that the current and future generations in India and Pakistan can live a better and peaceful life. There are enough lists of complaints and counter complaints on both sides to keep on widening the divide. India is not Israel. India is a huge country with vast diversity. Israel is a small country made up of people belonging to one religion. Like Pakistan was created for Muslims, Israel was created for Jews. Though the issues faced by India and Israel appear similar (they both face hostile Muslim nations and terrorism), they are vastly different. India is not the United States either. India is unique. Pakistan can use Islam under threat or India is a monster paranoia to keep its people aligned. I do not want India to use Pakistan as a threat to unite its citizens. Fear and hatred should not be used as the means to achieve cohesion amongst people. It might work in the short term, but in the long run it is like poison. You can see clearly in the case of Pakistan that this poison had brought them to the brink. I think we should encourage openness, self criticism and fair judgment to define long term solutions. In Kashmir today, it is difficult to believe the government claim that Pakistan is behind the public unrest. Pakistan is mired so deep in its terrorism and flooding calamity, they probably have no time to sit and sponsor brick throwing events in Kashmir currently. It has given us a chance to realize that the issue in Kashmir is genuine and is from within the Kashmiri population. I have not seen any concrete effort by our docile politicians to get involved and come up with a solution. We seem to be waiting for Pakistan to make the next move. Sometimes there are mistakes committed on our side too. Our ineptness is a big weakness. The current government at the center has done nothing to address either the Kashmir issue or the Maoist issue. They are just sitting it out without caring for the long term effects. Leadership is lacking.

I think Pakistanis are beginning to realize too that India is not such a huge monster as projected. One can see that from the change in tone from some of the regular Pakistani posters here. There is a willingness to resolve issues and move on. If another Mumbai style attack happens somewhere else in India, immediately people will forget Mumbai and start on the next one. There sure are elements within Pakistan who have reached a point of no return. Unfortunately they seem to have a lot of control over the events that are shaping up in the region. But we should not be asking regular Pakistanis to offer explanation in defense of those elements. We should take the efforts to make them realize that we all are in the same boat. Ganesh has done something no one could achieve on this forum – turn the brick throwing match into something productive and constructive. I think we should try to build on it.

Posted by KPSingh01 | Report as abusive

Let me share some reminiscences with the “youngsters” on this forum, since many of you were not born in 1971.

I was eight years old in 1971 :-). I remember my father pasting paper over the glass panes in all windows as part of the blackout rules. The top half of all headlights on cars were painted black. Even though our city (Bangalore) was deep in the south of India, there was the possibility that Pakistan would bomb the HAL (Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd) factory there.

I had grown up learning that there were two Pakistans, one on either side of India, and I was afraid even then. The way my mother put it, I got the feeling we were surrounded. I think the 1965 war had scarred Indians as well. I remember crying when soap got into my eyes during a bath, and my mum told me to be brave and not cry. “What will you do if the Pakistani puts a bomb on you?”, she asked by way of comparison to console me.

In those days, we had no TV at all, not even black-and-white. They used to show a news clip at the start of movies (and play the national anthem at the end, too!) I remember seeing the stream of refugees coming into India from East Pakistan and heard the word “cholera” for the first time. I remember being horrified seeing pictures of dead people lying on the road with flies sitting on their eyeballs. Truly war in a horrible thing. In retrospect, they should not have allowed kids to see these things. [In Australia, everything shown on TV comes with a classification rating, and parents can ensure their kids don't see inappropriate content.]

I also remember seeing photos in our local newspaper, the Deccan Herald, of dogfights between Sabre jets and Indian Gnats (Umair, your dad may have featured in some of them!) And I remember the headline “Pak soldiers dance to Indian drums” at the end. I asked my dad what that meant and he said we had won.

Later in school, our principal was talking about what West Pakistan had done in East Pakistan and she mentioned that they had raped Bengali women. At the time, I did not even know what “rape” was. My parents felt she should not have told grade 3/grade 4 kids about that!

That’s my (innocent) recollection of the war. Many others here were not even born then! Yet we still fight over it as if it had happened to us. We are the next generation, yet we carry the scars! I can empathise, because I was born after the 1962 war with China, and I carry the scars, thanks to the cultural conditioning of the period in which I grew up.

Let’s look back on these events with nostalgia but not let them embitter us. The future is far brighter, and there are better “battles” to be won against our peoples’ common enemies.

Regards,
Ganesh Prasad

Posted by prasadgc | Report as abusive

Nice recollection Ganesh!

My maternal uncle fought in what was East Pakistan during 1971. He was a man of few words. During the Khalistan movement, he became a supporter of Bhindranwale and was very upset when the Akal Takht was destroyed by the Indian army. It is amazing to see how passions change based on the situation. He passed away a couple of years ago in Vancouver BC. My cousins live in Canada and support the liberation of Khalistan even now. As far me, one can go on dividing a nation ad infinitum using one reason or another and those who divide will find no end. It is like peeling the onion. One can go on peeling it and will get to nowhere except for tears in the eyes. Creation of Pakistan has not made people’s lives better. It has made things worse. But we’ll let it go. East Pakistan divided from Pakistan for another reason. Bangladesh has not done any better after that division. Now Kashmir is trying to go on its own. Though it all feels like heaven when one dreams of an independent nation, all those honeymoon feelings disappear fast and reality dawns soon. At least the people need not stay this divided. Borders are artificial. People are real. Why should reality be subjugated by artificial boundaries? I am hoping that this calamity in Pakistan is turned to an advantage rather than a disadvantage by the countries in the region by reassuring Pakistanis that they have nothing to fear and that we all can co-exist in peace. There is no need for walls and barriers.

Posted by KPSingh01 | Report as abusive

Although, I was born several years after 1971 war, I had the fortune & pleasure of meeting with the great late Lt. General Jagjit Singh Arora many times (a good friend of my grand father) & hear accounts of the war from him. IMO, what really matters about the 1971 war, is the Pakistani perspective because it’s quite clear that the defeat in 1971 has left deep scars on collective phsyche of that nation, which are yet to heal.

Posted by Mortal1 | Report as abusive

Narratives of nations like ours with a rich and 4000 year long history are conveyed through stories and myths passed on from generation to generation.

While my parents never shared any 1971 stories, most Indians share a common narrative of invading hordes of muslims from North/North West – from Turkey, Central Asia, Iran etc. Narratives include the Somnath temple – destroyed 6 times including by Allaudin Khilji and Aurangzeb and rebuilt 6 times – the last time by Sardar Patel post independence. While some of these rulers like Akbar are venerated in our narratives, most are not. Even the comics we read like Amar Chitra Katha had rather unsavory stories about Aurangzeb esp his struggle with Sikh gurus, Allaudin Khilji is main villain in story of Rani Padmini and so on.

So while we should become more sensitive to your feelings about 1971 and I will, please be sensitive towards the fact that Kasab and co brought back to me atleast the old narratives of cruel muslim invaders who rejoiced on seeing the blood of the local populace.

As for the US and its military-industrial complex, my wise mom would describe certain people with following words – “Inse na dosti acchi na dushmani” (It is not good to be either friends or enemies with these people).

Posted by nvrforgetmbai | Report as abusive

nvrforgetmbai
“cruel muslim invaders who rejoiced on seeing the blood of the local populace. ”

-Here again assoicating Islam with violence in historical perspective is incorrect. Muslims even went to Spain and Gibraltar, Islam is truly a religion of peace and Brotherhood. Did Muslims in Spain and Gibraltar induldged in the bloodbath of local populace? No.
Infact in the early days of islam in Arabia most people accepted Islam because of the good conduct of its followers.

Posted by Umairpk | Report as abusive

Mortal:
“it’s quite clear that the defeat in 1971 has left deep scars on collective phsyche of that nation, which are yet to heal.”

-I dont think 1971 matters in the way you are thinking, as such for us younger Pakistanis 1971 is history. Also majority of politicians and generals agree that we badly messed up in 1971 and India took advantage and dealt a severe blow.
However, what the 1971 war really did was to permanently reshape the thinking of Pakistan Military. The focus became to acquire nuclear bomb, challenge India etc. Had India chosen not to intervene in what was Pakistan’s internal crisis, today India-Pakistan relations would have been much better.
But I think 1971 was just the climax of what started in 1947, the 48 Kashmir war, 65 war again, 71 was bound to happen given the state of Indo-Pak relations at that time. If not due to East Pakistan, maybe both countries could have gone to war on Kashmir.

Posted by Umairpk | Report as abusive

@Ganesh
Answers to ur question (sorry 4 late response)

1. Suspicion. Even if India can guarantee peace, 1971 was still a poisonous event. Trust will build up gradually but some suspicion might remain.
2. On Playing second, this one has a long answer. Actually Pakistan suffers some disadvantages compared to India. Those include a poor geography, surrounded by hostile states (India, and Afghanistan which does not recognize durand line border). Lack of depth, etc. Pakistan needs a power patron like China or US on its side. In short, there is no problem if Pakistan has to contend being a junior partner to India as long as Pakistan has a dignified status.
Pakistan knows India is a bigger player, problem arises when India is viewed as a hostile state the whole scenario changes. Gradually as relations will improve, things will change too. India’s big size is not the problem, India’s designation as a hostile state is.

Posted by Umairpk | Report as abusive

Thanks for your thoughtful answer, Umair. Much appreciated.

> In short, there is no problem if Pakistan has to contend being a junior partner to India as long as Pakistan has a dignified status.

Yes, dignity, that’s the key. Everyone deserves to be treated with dignity, countries as well as individuals. I hope India is gracious as it grows and does not fall victim to arrogance and hubris. For those who have approached Indian government agencies and experienced first-hand the ‘babu’ (petty bureaucrat) mentality, this looks like an awful possibility. Let’s hope for the best, though.

Regards,
Ganesh Prasad

Posted by prasadgc | Report as abusive

Umair, its ok you know, you do not have to continually defend Islamic invasions and say that they were peaceful in any way or the local populace did not suffer, please do not paint Islamic invasions as something that was benevolent and loving.

Historically Islamic invasions were not much better than Dante’s fourth circle of hell, for those on the receiving end were were raped, enslaved genocided, looted, their temples destroyed, populace converted, many beheaded and their culture and religion destroyed.

Invasions are never peaceful or benevolent, no matter who does them.

Umair, you keep blaming external and outside forces for Pakistan’s problems, when will you wake up from your dream and realize that problems are always within, not from outside. That means, your predicament is due to the collective actions and thoughts and choices you have made in your life. If you feel that Pakistani’s were powerless somehow to make those choices, please say that, and if you do say that, why? Is it because the Pakistani army has made the people powerless to control their own destiny?

You just can’t admit fault here, the Pakistani ARmy has been an instrument of failure, nationally speaking to the development and growth of the Pakistani people at large. The Army has failed miserably at politics, economy, wars and cannot only maintain friendships, if it is the lap dog of other nations.

Your love of certain things in your country is grossly misplaced and you need to grow up and re-think things a little here.

Sorry for your misery and near death experiences. All of this is the result of the radicalization that your army perpetrated for the purpose of “strategic depth” for the last 22 year since the Soviets left.

I don’t see India doing anything opportunistically evil here, so quit now creating elaborate historical reasons for all the ills and stand up like a man and accept responsibility!

Yes India did 1971, we will apologize for that, but Pakistan must apologize for the Genocide it inflicted on the Bengali’s and accept the responsibility for pushing terrorism on India, via Kashmir dispute that was artificially elevated by Paksitan in the first place, just to get revenge for 1971, so do you see? the vicious circle your institutions kept creating?….Pak Army has dragged people through the mud.

Posted by G-W | Report as abusive

Some wise person here said we need wall between India and pakistan, with all due respect i would like to state that there are already enough walls between two nations that of hatred, mistrust, lack of confidence, and so on. So i dont think we need any more walls. Infact we need to break down the existing walls. And Indian government for first time in many years have done a sensible thing by helping Pakistan. And to our utter annoyance Pakistan government hesitated to take it (this strengthens my opinion that pakistan parliamentarians are more corrupt that those found in India). India can do more and should do more. With great power comes great responsibility. If we are a better economy than Pakistan then it is our first responsibility to forward a helping hand to our fellow brothers (hope some day Pakistanis also think of us as brothers aur umeed par hi duniya kayam hai) in times of distress. It is as much a misfortune of India as it is of Pakistan because loss of human life is enormous.
For someone living in mumbai going thru horrors of bomb blast, i can understand as i have experienced the same in delhi during diwali(guess 2008 it was) and have gone thru same horror (didnt went to any shopping place for almost 2 months). But still walls?????….NOOOOOOO. I am not saying that India let down its guard or compromise its security and for your kind knowledge there already is fencing on 1 km inside of LOC in indian side of Kashmir and Punjab, so please forbid us we dont want any more walls.
As u must have noticed our dear friend Umair speaking his heart out with utmost integrity and honesty has changed this blog from nightmare to a lovely dream. So let us all learn from Umair and think about benefits and hope there are more like Umair on both sides of LOC and lets hope that day comes in our lifetimes when LOC becomes “Lifeline Of Commerce” for South East Asia.
As a kid my grandfather used to tell me stories of Lahore and how great a city Lahore is. He said if you haven’t seen Lahore you ain’t born yet. But to me, visiting Lahore is just a distant dream. Hope the dreams come true.
And i am a foodie, so Umair may be u can tell me what to eat and where to eat when and if i come to Lahore in my lifetime(i am a veggie). :)

Posted by 777xxx777 | Report as abusive

77xxx777 said:

“As a kid my grandfather used to tell me stories of Lahore and how great a city Lahore is. He said if you haven’t seen Lahore you ain’t born yet. But to me, visiting Lahore is just a distant dream. Hope the dreams come true.
And i am a foodie, so Umair may be u can tell me what to eat and where to eat when and if i come to Lahore in my lifetime(i am a veggie). ”

–>777, my mother too is from Lahore and still to this day, we eat Lahori size portions.

I had suggested the wall, as a temporary measure, until Pakistan in a decade or two, becomes a stable, moderate neighbour that wants true peace on ALL issues, without looking through ISLAMIC lens.

That is the issue, Pakistani’s see everthing through Islamic Lens, we need to move away from religious lens and view each other as equals human beings first.

I just felt the wall would keep out militants infiltrating into India, as Pakistan is conducting clandestine assymetrial warfare against India, via Kashmiri Militancy and Radicalization of local population against India.

I don’t believe a pushover softie position for India is in its best interest, but neither is war, perhaps a middle ground, until Pakistan stabilizes somewhat internally and it simmers down its militancy and figures a few things out as to what kind of Pakistan, Pakistani’s want it to be.

Diplomacy is nothing without a very large stick. I have said earlier, as long as Pakistani’s are willing to unclench their fist, take of the Islamic Binoculars, when it comes to resolving every issue, we can see each other as human beings first and bring some level of clarity and objectivity to all political issues and fix them, fix Kashmir and resolve all water and territorial disputes.

I absolutely agree, let’s fix things, all of them, don’t build any walls, but Pakistan can’t keep knives and guns hidden behind its back, while it is claiming to want to have resolution on all issues with India. You can’t have such poisonous politics in Pakistan, while the civilian government just puts on a pretty face between diplomats, that is not enough.

Indians want to see Pakistan as a people take a warmer, cooler attitude towards India and quit those dreams of dismembering India and hating Indians.

Why do Indians have to win the hearts of Pakistani’s here all the time, why don’t Pakistani’s have to do anything to win the respect and love of others?

I am sorry cricket is not enough.

Posted by G-W | Report as abusive

Umair, you said:

“The focus became to acquire nuclear bomb, challenge India etc. Had India chosen not to intervene in what was Pakistan’s internal crisis, today India-Pakistan relations would have been much better.”

–>Umair, you just keep coming short again, you just cannot say it….your so-called internal problem, it was well documented, Pakistani Army was obliterating Hindus, systematically to completely Islamicize East Pakistan and also subjugate the Bengalis to bring them completely under Punjabi oppressive rule.

Pakistan’s internal problem boiled over into India with millions of refugees.

Had Pakistan not started the GENOCIDE of 1971, India would not have dismembered Pakistan in 1971. You keep talking of the sorrow of 1971, what sorrow do you have, for the 3 million genocided? Pakistan will keep suffering from its own pity, until it makes amends for the Genocides Umair…….you keep coming short of admitting fault here, do not be a proud man any more.

I would have thought that the floods would have been enough to warm your heart to face history even, but even these floods are not enough to make you want to make amends for the Genocide. How can anyone here heal and make amends, as long as Pakistanis like continue to evade responsibility?

Posted by G-W | Report as abusive

GW,
I totally reject your accusation that Pakistanis,keep knives and guns hidden behind its back.Sorry to say it is not a philosphy we believe in .It is hindu philosphy as taught by their mahan leader Chankia.
Further to your question why Pakistani’s dont do something to win the hearts of indian’s,simple answer is you can not clap with one hand.Further more we have suffered much more from indian atrocities than indian.
You always talk about Mumbai,what about Samjhota Express killing of Pakistani’s by hindu mob(militry man guiding)?
You shout about Terrorist of Pakistan,what about indian terrorist army’s killing of innocent Kashmiri kids?

Posted by Sardar1 | Report as abusive

Umair, let me clarify a little better and really dumb it down. Imagine a drunk picks a fight and gets hurt in the hospital, but continues to blame the alcohol and the “other guy” who injured him. Who started the fight the drunk, or the guy who beat him up? Who is guilty here? the drunk, or the guy who defended himself against the drunk? Who is not taking responsibility here?

Even when the 90,000 Pak Army POW’s were collected, the Indian army generals you know what they said?…they said let’s not harm the Pakistani soldiers…they are after all…our own people…hurting them, is like killing our own and why would we do that?

I will leave you with those two stories…please don’t be proud anymore…just ponder those with your heart and mind and please start thinking outside of the propaganda you have been taught since childhood…

Posted by G-W | Report as abusive

@G-W
“Why do Indians have to win the hearts of Pakistani’s here all the time, why don’t Pakistani’s have to do anything to win the respect and love of others? ”

Because the benefits of such an alliance are far greater than our egos. If the Pakistan does not replicate then its their foolishness but their foolishness does not mean that we stop trying. And the kind of response that international community has been conferring on Pakistan floods is enough to show the respect and love that Pakistan have earned. No need to add insult to injury. Its a time we should tell them, “look guys we do not support religion based states but we support humanity and thats y we are helping you out so it will be nice if you can also try not looking at us from the religious perspective.” and thats what I (we) have been trying to convey all the time that the myths pakistan have about us are false. And if we can succeed in that we can have a better future. Just being dogmatic about past mistakes will take us nowhere, it has not taken us anywhere for past 60 years.

And whoever said anything about being softie state? No need to be so dramatic and radical. India has a force that can very well defend its borders. And for proxy wars it is the typical indian mentality of saying that if someone is trying to benefit from our mistakes then that person is bad but we will not improve our mistakes.

If there was enough economic progress in Kashmir and military officers stop killing innocent youth in Kashmir, for sake of medals, do u think radicalisation of youth can happen? It is fully and totally indian government’s responsibility for radicalisation of valley on indian side. It is a section of pak army that EXPLOITS the mistakes of indian government, so instead of indian government making up for mistakes the government just passes on the blame to other side and people like us foolishly say “Yes yes yes Other Side (India/Pakistan) is bad”. Politicians on both sides have thrived on by polluting the minds of people with horrors of other side and hiding their own mistakes.

Its time we give peace a chance and move on.

And Umair, bickering about past will not solve any problems. Learn to move on. Benefits are far greater than our egos.

Posted by 777xxx777 | Report as abusive

@”I dont think 1971 matters in the way you are thinking, as such for us younger Pakistanis 1971 is history.”
Posted by Umairpk

Going by my conversations with you & other Pakistanis on this blog, I think 1971 lives in the minds of all Pakistanis, young & old. It has been deliberately kept alive by your military establishment as a constant reminder that India was & is the enemy & can repeat 1971. Keeping this false perception alive, enables your military establishment to hold on to power & claim a big chunk of your country’s revenues & resources. The game is pretty clear to non-Pakistanis but unfortuately, a majority of Pakistanis like you still choose to stay blind-folded & are being led to a ditch.

Posted by Mortal1 | Report as abusive

@Mortal1
“Keeping this false perception alive, enables your military establishment to hold on to power & claim a big chunk of your country’s revenues & resources”

And to solve this situation Pakistan needs at least one Jinnah, Nehru, Rajiv, or even Benazir Bhutto will do. Pakistan needs a strong democracy which can control the army as it is on indian side. And achieving democracy in Pakistan is one real tough task, given that their greatest aid giver US will not want real democracy, puppet democracy yes but true democracy not sure if US will back it because then pakistan people will c thru lies of not only their own establishments but also of the US as well and US will never want it. Lets pray that peace comes to region.

Posted by 777xxx777 | Report as abusive

Umair,

If the dismemberment of East Pakistan in 1971 was done by a country other than India, I am sure you guys will not be that sentimental about it. Losing to India, even it is a cricket match is a shameful thing for you people. The same feelings got expressed when David Cameron pointed fingers at Pakistan to an Indian audience in Bangalore. It was very clear that the hurt feelings stem from anything that is India. Suppose Kashmir was occupied by Iran or China or Afghanistan, I am sure you people will not be so emotional over it. What I see here is the “India factor” that seems to sensitize Pakistans a lot. This feeling comes from a false superiority complex you people seem to be suffering from over generations. This is the reason why your military has waged four wars with India, that none of the other neighbors of similar size have. We all have issues with neighboring nations, but they do not lead to immediate wars. There is a strong belief in the Pakistani psyche that still looks at India as weak, effeminate, Hindu system which was ruled under Muslim rule for a thousand years. It was the same attitude that led to the genocide in East Pakistan where the Bengalis were looked at the same way. So long as they played a sub-servient role and did not demand equal privileges, your military elite let them exist. As soon as that expectation was violated, Pak military tried to suppress it brutally. Pakistan does not compare with India in every which way. Its needs are vastly different from that of India. If India spends money on its defense needs, there is no need for Pakistan to catch up by sacrificing all the resources meant for other purposes. Many times I find the false term used by Western press which mentions India and Pakistan as rivals. In reality that is not the case. The US has only realized it recently and has begun to understand India’s genuine needs. India compares with China and its defense posturing is in relation to China. Pakistan should not assume itself to be challenged by India and up the ante in every aspect. Your military brass need to think with their heads instead of their dicks. It is pure macho that has driven your country downhill. Now you are sitting there blaming everyone else and still supporting those power holders in your military. India as an enemy has been the vision used by your military to stay in power or control it from behind the scenes. Pakistanis fear making peace with India for being ostracized by the rest of the country. No Pakistani politician will take the bold step in that direction. Accepting aid from India feels shameful. That is why even at times of adversity like this, Pakistani government is still deciding on how to use Indian financial aid, after taking a lot of time deciding whether to accept it or not. Misperceptions have been amplied and kept alive to keep your people aligned. This is like poison. It will only lead to destruction in the long run. I found the logic that India’s nuclear explosion forced Pakistan to abandon all investments in infrastructure building and spend it all on nuke technology to be ridiculous. But no one asked Pakistan to sell that technology to rogue nations. India did not do that. So I wonder why Pakistan had to get ahead there. Now no one trusts Pakistan. This is a situation your people have brought on themselves.
We are still trying to understand you and are willing to compromise on a lot of fronts. But your countrymen want compromises only on your terms. I do not see any Pakistani on this forum and trying to reach out to Indians like Ganesh and other Indians have been doing. That tells something. There is still room for improvement. And it can happen only with change in heart. Pakistan has the golden opportunity to dust off the old beliefs and start on a fresh ground.

Posted by KPSingh01 | Report as abusive

Umair, your military establishment has successfully convinced the masses of your country that critisizing them equates to being an unpatriotic Pakistani. It’s both amusing & shocking to non-pakistanis when they see folks like you singing the praises of the entity which has brought about the ruination of your nation. It is ineed a fact when people say that while other countries have an army, the Pakistani army has a country. People like you should call yourselves ‘Armystani’ instead of Pakistani.

Posted by Mortal1 | Report as abusive

This article points towards a bleak future for Pakistan:

“Pakistan, Drowning in Neglect” – NY Times

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/08/26/opinio n/26sethi.html?pagewanted=1&_r=1&hp

Posted by Mortal1 | Report as abusive

G-W:

you said: “Yes India did 1971, we will apologize for that, but Pakistan must apologize for the Genocide it inflicted on the Bengali’s and accept the responsibility for pushing terrorism on India, via Kashmir dispute that was artificially elevated by Paksitan in the first place, just to get revenge for 1971, so do you see? the vicious circle your institutions kept creating?….Pak Army has dragged people through the mud.”

+++++ Asking Pakistan to apologize for the Genocide and India to apologize for intercepting in the genocide (call it whatever this is the meaning) does not make sense. your personal emotional opinion cannot be extended to India as nation.

Wars happen, one wins and the other loses. Pakistan has not learned to accept defeat. Pakistan lost one war then and by not accepting the reality of that and not moving on Pakistanis are losing many at home since then. Pakistan need to behave like a graceful enemy.

I wish there was a scope for apology. There is not. At best I can say that I understand their pain.

Posted by chakde | Report as abusive

Cyril and others make good points here:

Can Flood Aid Weaken the Taliban in Pakistan?

http://www.nytimes.com/roomfordebate/201 0/8/23/can-us-disaster-aid-weaken-the-ta liban-in-pakistan/aid-wont-reduce-extrem ism

Posted by Seth | Report as abusive

@Umair

You are patently wrong about Cold Start. The old Indian Army doctrine called for division and Corps sized task forces to thrust into Pakistan and break it in half.

The new Indian doctrine (Cold Start) recognizes that this was a useless goal (what would India accomplish by breaking Pakistan in two anyway?), impractical in the nuclear age and does not provide options for the Indian cabinet.

Cold Start explicitly calls for no attacks that would threaten the viability of the Pakistani state. So there would be no attempt to split Pakistan. Instead, what cold start calls for is simply seizing a few areas along the border and then essentially using those gains as bargaining chips for peace.

Cold Start is far less dangerous to Pakistan than the previous doctrine. But I suspect what makes Pakistanis nervous is that the doctrine could work. No other country would tolerate a nuclear response from Pakistan for a few thousand square miles being seized in pockets all along the border (not all in one area). Which means that once Pakistan logistic’s tail collapses (an inevitability for Pakistan in any prolonged conflict with India), Pakistan would be compelled to negotiate.

Of course, right-wing nutjobs in Pakistan can’t exactly make money saying that India no longer intends to destroy Pakistan. So might as well lie about it. The fact that people like you fall for their lies, shows how effective their propaganda is.

By the way, Pakistan’s response times are significantly faster than India’s. So even with Cold Start, Pakistan could put up a solid fight.

Posted by kEiThZ | Report as abusive

people go easy on Umair. repetition of the long lessons will not do any good. we can give little friendly reminders about what our opinion about the problem but main solution is self-realization. hammering same point (that too from Indians) can make a Pakistani over-defensive.

Posted by chakde | Report as abusive

Mortal1: “This article points towards a bleak future for Pakistan:

“Pakistan, Drowning in Neglect” – NY Times”

A couple of things in the article raised my eyebrows.

1. “It was turning into a fight between the provinces,” said the policeman darkly. “But then, I asked the major, ‘Are you from the Pakistani army or the Sindh army?’ And that shook him. He understood what I was saying. He apologized and withdrew the excavators.”

2. Unfortunately, Baluch separatists had struck: they were stopping vehicles, pulling out Punjabi passengers and shooting them. Most of the men in our crew weren’t Punjabis, and they took that route. But I am a Punjabi, as are two of the reporters, and we had to find another way.

Is this for real? When a ship sinks, all rats want to leave. I hope that these floods do not weaken Pakistan so much that separatist movements start spinning out on their own, trying to control different regions. It will make the job of the army very hard in keeping all regions under control as it will cost enormously. The after effects of these floods are going to be even more devastating than the floods themselves. The world community has to step in and help in a massive way and fast before Pakistan sinks under the flood and its aftermath. This is not the time to judge this country and act on their past historic record. Pakistan needs help very badly.

Posted by KPSingh01 | Report as abusive

“When a ship sinks, all rats want to leave” Posted by KPSingh01

Those were the exact words I uttered in my mind after reading this article. As resources tighten even further & lawlessness spreading all over, this could very well become a fight between the provinces. I hope it doesen’t come to that but everything seems to be pointing towards that scenario. I agree, the int’l community needs to step up & step in before things spin out of control. Pakistan needs help in the worst way.

Posted by Mortal1 | Report as abusive

Now, with the Taliban issuing a warning that they would attack foreign aid workers, it will be even more difficult to help Pakistan.

Posted by Mortal1 | Report as abusive

Westerns world is so wrong about linking terrorism to poverty and destitution.

Canadian police charge three in suspected terror plot –

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canad a-11102833

And I know that there exists a perfect conspiracy theory where Canada would be at fault instead.

Posted by Seth | Report as abusive

@”Canadian police charge three in suspected terror plot”
Posted by Seth

And of course there’s a strong Paskistani connection in this plot as well, with 2 of the 3 guys arrested being of Pakistani origin. But obviously Pakistan should not be blamed for any of this. It’s all Canada’s fault for not doing enough to assimilate these guys into main-stream Canadian culture.

Posted by Mortal1 | Report as abusive

Let me be frank here – I do not care one way or the other about Pakistan. I only worry about the impact Pak is having on my life in Mumbai. I do not wish to suffer from attacks like Kasab and co, bomb blasts in local trains etc.

I want an end state of peaceful co-existence. However, I see several problems in medium term

1) for 2011 troop withdrawal, US needs Pakistan to push through a Taliban truce/peace agt etc. This gives Pak leverage.
2) once US withdraws and Taliban comes back to power, they will attack India through proxies across Kashmir, Punjab, sea route etc.
3) Do we want a situation with bomb blasts in India every day?

Umair:

Here again assoicating Islam with violence in historical perspective is incorrect. Muslims even went to Spain and Gibraltar, Islam is truly a religion of peace and Brotherhood. Did Muslims in Spain and Gibraltar induldged in the bloodbath of local populace? No.
Infact in the early days of islam in Arabia most people accepted Islam because of the good conduct of its followers

Yes but I am talking about India and our common narrative not Spain’s. Our conquest was not qite as bloodless as Spain or Arabia – quite bloody in fact. One of ur compatriots put together a list
“Ghaznavid Empire 963–1187
Mamluk dynasty 1206-1290
Khilji dynasty 1290-1320
Tughlaq dynasty 1320-1413
Sayyid dynasty 1414-1451
Lodhi dynasty 1451-1526
Mughal Empire 1526–1858
Durrani Empire 1747–1823″
etc etc.

And we Indians as a nation have said “Never again”. We will never again be ruled/conquered by Muslims from North/North west. We will defend our borders and never again be ruled over. In my mind, I associate Pakistan with all those Muslim invasions and which is why Kasab and co brought back nightmares to me. As afore mentioned, I am just sharing our common narrative as u were sharing about 1971.

Posted by nvrforgetmbai | Report as abusive

nvrforgetmbai
“2) once US withdraws and Taliban comes back to power, they will attack India through proxies across Kashmir, Punjab, sea route etc.”

-I do not agree, Taliban are dependent on ISI, they are to some extent controlled by ISI. They can’t storm their way back into power, they can have a say in Southern Afghanistan but I don’t see they can take over Kabul so easily (without full Pakistan support). And with the Pakistan Army locked in a fight with local Taliban inside Pakistan, the tables are turned.
In short, no one is going to attack India, Indian Navy should stay vigilant to guard the sea route. India should address the problems in Kashmir and all will be fine.
As with Pakistan, with so much going on inside Pakistan, there is no reason why should Pakistan be involved in creating trouble for India.
We live in a globalized world, technology has made borders and distances obsolete. A situation in one country affects the other, all we need to do is to be human and act human.

Posted by Umairpk | Report as abusive

I agree with Umair’s assessment. Times really have changed. The probability of a terror attack against India (although not zero) has diminished now, because the terror masters are in a spot of trouble themselves and realise that the old games will no longer work. The world order is very strongly anti-terror now and the spotlight is definitely on Pakistan, so the generals will take care to behave.

I think we can all be a bit bolder and try some peaceful experiments again. Yes, peace overtures have been thwarted in the past, but times have changed. It would be a pity if we kept learning the wrong lessons from history, like Epaminondas (http://bit.ly/dB68F5).

Regards,
Ganesh Prasad

Posted by prasadgc | Report as abusive

@Prasad,

It is time that Congress Party kick their action into high gear and trilaterally broker full autonomy to Kashmiri’s.

Under such an agreement, Pakistan and India, both must completely vacate all of kashmir and let the UN and NATO administer and be the monitors and observers and peace keepers in such a comprehensive bilateral withdrawal.

The entire Pak Army and entire Indian army, BOTH removed, along with ALL proxy terror camps, terror cells, entire terrorist infrastructure taken down with a sledge hammer from PoK and let Kashmiri’s live on their own for a few years, with out any political or military interference from either side or any outside forces whatso ever.

This will take the wind out of the sails of the Proliferators of terrorism in Pakistan, they can’ keep harping on about the Kashmir issue as an excuse to keep terrorism against India.

Let’s take away the tools and excuses of terrorism and force Pakistan to vacate Kashmir completely and India should do the same concurently in parallel.

Peace can happen and will, it is inevitable. Let’s put the nefarious proliferators of terrorism out of business for good.

Indians just want to live and be left alone, as are most Pakistani citizens. As I said earlier many times, this political thought form should resonate with Pakistani’s, peace with India, Pakistani’s should demand that their army move out of Kashmir, so that Indian army can reciprocate at the SAME time, with a comprehensive third party monitoring system in place, to make sure neither side is cheating or opportunizing.

Peace between Pakistan and India is a huge victory for Kashmiri’s, Pakistani and Indian citizens, but it is a huge business blow to the Pakistani Army, and this is the biggest entity acting as a roadblock to peace.

A comprehensive water sharing agreement to make sure that all Pakistani’s, Kashmiri’s and Indians are all getting their fair share of water for farming must also be started.

I see only sharing and giving towards Pakistani Citizens, by Indian Citizens, if Pakistani’s demand peace from Islamabad and Rawalpindi.

After all, for Pakistan, the best business plan should be the one, that looks after all of its citizens, with more equal sharing of wealth.

Roadblocks to peace must be challenged by all.

Posted by G-W | Report as abusive

“@”Canadian police charge three in suspected terror plot”
Posted by Seth

And of course there’s a strong Paskistani connection in this plot as well, with 2 of the 3 guys arrested being of Pakistani origin. But obviously Pakistan should not be blamed for any of this. It’s all Canada’s fault for not doing enough to assimilate these guys into main-stream Canadian culture.
Posted by Mortal1 | Report as abusive”

–>I am growing tired and weary of western countries getting blamed for not assimilating people into mainstream culture….well one should ask themselves, how many hindu temples or christian churches, or synagogues are being allowed to be built in Arabia, Syria, UAE, Indonesia, or Pakistan?

Why is it always the west’s fault if Muslims misbehave in the west? Is not the perpetrator of the crime the one primarily responsible for the crime?

There has to be greater fairness in this regard, with all of the mosques getting built around the western world, the muslim world must also reciprocate in kind, if it wants to be perceived in a favorable light and a purveyor of justice, peace and equality….and for it not…all this talk of unfairness against muslims in western countries is all bullxhit talk, it is just hot air and appears as rantings of a deranged fool, with a one-sided sense of fairness.

Human beings do not like one-sided sense of fairness.

Posted by G-W | Report as abusive

Prasad, BTW,

As a Hindu, I think every Hindu on earth should give for the Pakistani relief, to help ALL muslims in Pakistan.

The Pakistani’s are our brothers and need our help, we have more than we need, let’s give with a big heart and help rebuild Pakistan, let’s take a strong lead and force peace upon the region and this is the best opportunity to fix all issues and build communion with Pakistani’s.

India would be stupid today if it did not capitalize the flood situation, this is the time to build everlasting goodwill and India should overwhelm Pakistan with help, doctors, teachers, engineers, aid, food, construction equipment and anything they need immediately and in the long run to rebuild their country and feed their people.

Terrorism, militancy, proxy wars and hatred will have no home in Pakistan as long as India helps in a huge way and makes the style statement loud and proud.

India would be foolish to throw away this opportunity of peace to transform the Indo Pak relationship in an entirely different direction. India would be doing something so historically unprecedented, that it may set a new standard for achieving peace.

This is a radical idea, but again what other opportunity would melt the hardened hearts of Pakistani’s towards Indians, Pakistani’s need help now. Let’s not wait hundreds of years for peace.

The longer India waits, the more we will most certainly return to the status quo.

Posted by G-W | Report as abusive

@Bloggers, here is article from Myra, stating that Pak Army and ISI have determined that domestic terrorists are more dangerous than Indian army.

http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSSGE67 Q070

Still unfettered by the flood, the Pak Army and ISI choose to drag Pakistani citizens as blind cattle through the mud and maintain enmity against India to suit their own business interests, with Kashmir being the usual excuse, despite the fact that domestic militants are a greater threat, more resources and money are spent to maitain enmity with India.

Pakistani’s, need to realize that they are being lied to and tricked and their potential has been perpetually robbed because the Fauji’s are looking after themselves first, to hell with the rest of Pakistani’s, right?

Posted by G-W | Report as abusive

G-W said:

> A comprehensive water sharing agreement to make sure that all Pakistani’s, Kashmiri’s and Indians are all getting their fair share of water for farming must also be started.

The Indus Water Treaty was signed in 1960, brokered by the World Bank and agreed to by both India and Pakistan after much negotiation. The current accusations by Pakistan that India is wothholding water (before the floods) and releasing too much water (after the floods) are in fact easy to confirm or refute by appointing a neutral third party to monitor reservoir levels and release volumes.

> India would be stupid today if it did not capitalize the flood situation, this is the time to build everlasting goodwill and India should overwhelm Pakistan with help, doctors, teachers, engineers, aid, food, construction equipment and anything they need immediately and in the long run to rebuild their country and feed their people.

The problem is not on India’s side. I’m sure India would respond generously if Pakistan were to ask for such help. The two roadblocks are the pride of the Pakistani establishment (which does not want to be seen as asking India for help but as doing India a favour by accepting Indian aid) and the militants, who have openly threatened to kidnap foreigners involved in aid efforts. It is these dysfunctional elements who keep frustrating peace efforts. They will cut off their nose to spite their face.

Regards,
Ganesh Prasad

Posted by prasadgc | Report as abusive

I think you guys have no idea what is going in the mind of organization led by Prof. Hafiz Saeed about Indian involvement in this. Pakistan has its sensitivity for historical reasons and even if they want, Prof Saeed and other fundamentalists groups like Taliban which become super-active during these times will arm twist or threaten Pakistan or anyone from accepting any or MAJOR Indian involvement.

Posted by rehmat | Report as abusive

Prasad, you said:

“The two roadblocks are the pride of the Pakistani establishment (which does not want to be seen as asking India for help but as doing India a favour by accepting Indian aid) and the militants, who have openly threatened to kidnap foreigners involved in aid efforts. It is these dysfunctional elements who keep frustrating peace efforts. They will cut off their nose to spite their face.”

–>Those that have an uncompromising core, should be unequivocally dealt with using excessive overwhelming force. I cannot believe these backwards dirtbag viral demons would deny help to innocent women and children and men in a time of need.

We have to decide if we want to keep being held hostage to the seventh century. There should be a focussed effort by Pakistan to destroy and snap the spine of the Taliban and cripple them permanently.

Now it appears that the TeT are holding the Pakistani’s hostage, as they trying to survive, these cowards are not muslims, nor are they human. Having no redeeming qualities, they should be hunted to extinction. Negotiating with the uncompromising core of the Taliban is like undoing progress and that is no one’s interests.

Posted by G-W | Report as abusive

@Pakistani’s, need to realize that they are being lied to and tricked and their potential has been perpetually robbed because the Fauji’s are looking after themselves first, to hell with the rest of Pakistani’s, right?
Posted by G-W

*****WE have heard you guys a lot on this topic. I do not think you can influence Pakistanis any more than you have done so far. My friendly suggestion is not to give repeated lectures to Pakistanis because this is a counter-productive exercise. You may be right but Pakistanis will not listen to you even if you are right. Have we not understood this small thing?

Also Pakistanis know what NY times has written. No point forwarding the links. WE all read these newspapers and know they are saying.

Posted by rehmat | Report as abusive

I think there is enough of lecturing By Indian posters to Pakistanis. Any more will not do any good.

Just a friendly advice

Posted by rehmat | Report as abusive

G-W,

The article posted by Mortal1 “Pakistan, Drowning in Neglect” alleged that it’s the military that is selectively saving (and flooding) patches of land based on the presence of precious F-16 fighters and the like. It’s not just the Taliban who are screwing the people, unfortunately.

Regards,
Ganesh Prasad

Posted by prasadgc | Report as abusive

Today there was firing near the US embassy by the Pakistani Taliban trying to stop US from giving aid – The US is the one nation giving $155m of committed funding towards the Pakistan flooding.

The insanity and inhumanity of these people is unbelievable. They should be out there helping their countrymen if these guys are the patriots they claim they are.

The Pak army/police should destroy these people with no mercy. Give them the martyrdom they want.

Umair:
>>?-I do not agree, Taliban are dependent on ISI, they are to some extent controlled by ISI. They can’t storm their way back into power, they can have a say in Southern Afghanistan but I don’t see they can take over Kabul so easily (without full Pakistan support). And with the Pakistan Army locked in a fight with local Taliban inside Pakistan, the tables are turned.
In short, no one is going to attack India, Indian Navy should stay vigilant to guard the sea route. India should address the problems in Kashmir and all will be fine.

This statement is from Umair. Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah I cannot believe it – still reeling from shock. Is this the same guy who was using the full maa-behen gaalis few posts ago. Amazing.

I hope your statement comes true but am more pessimistic in general. Once the US leaves the region, Afghani Taliban are in the best position to take over. I expect full blown civil war with Northern Alliance warlords backed by US/Iran ranged against Afghanistan Taliban backed by ISI. Lets see. Hope I’m wrong.

Posted by nvrforgetmbai | Report as abusive

“This statement is from Umair. Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah I cannot believe it – still reeling from shock. Is this the same guy who was using the full maa-behen gaalis few posts ago. Amazing.

I like to believe I’ve good memory and would defend Umair here. If you can pull any examples of Umair doing mc-bc, $11 goes in whichever relief fund you want.

Posted by Seth | Report as abusive

sorry to burst ur bubble. My 11$ to Ladakh flood relief- The hope trust. Get the address off the NDTV site. if not then Red Cross of wherever u are.

i complained about maa behen gaalis once on the site not so long ago – both sides of the border.

Try http://blogs.reuters.com/pakistan/2010/0 7/22/pakistans-general-kayani-given-thre e-year-extension/?cp=all#comments

F*CK YOU.
F*CK YOUR SH*T HOLE INDIA.

I Like freedom of expression.
Posted by Umairpk

contd with

Usman

Let’s ignore this psychopath b*stard, son of a b*tch motherf*cker blacksabbath/bio_hazard who ever he is. If we stoop down to their level, there will be no difference between us and them. These are typical people who never accepted Pakistan’s existence since its inception.
Posted by Umairpk | Report as abusive

more as I find them.

Posted by nvrforgetmbai | Report as abusive

there is another classic one on idol worshipers with reference to Ganesh milk drinking episode which still turns my stomach. Unfortunately or fortunately, deleted by moderators :( u can see parts of it in cached pages but not able to get full piece.

Umair himself can also confess to using gaalis on the site – this is for a good cause after all.

Posted by nvrforgetmbai | Report as abusive

nvrforgetmbai
That was just one occassion I lost cool, otherwise I would generally refrain from abusive language if the discussion is civilized. As with some people not accepting Pakistan’s existence right from start, they do exist whether in tiny minority but they do.
BTW you need to also go back and read what BlackSabbath had been posting??

“Once the US leaves the region, Afghani Taliban are in the best position to take over. I expect full blown civil war with Northern Alliance warlords backed by US/Iran ranged against Afghanistan Taliban backed by ISI. Lets see. Hope I’m wrong.”

-If you are upto date with the current situation, you would know there is nothing like that going to happen. Too much is at stake for everyone, however Taliban have no likelihood of coming back to power. However, what is unfortunate is that unfortunate country is in a state of war for 30 years. Lets hope for peace.

Posted by Umairpk | Report as abusive

Guys,

Let’s not rake up old issues now. We have reached a level of discourse where we’re able to talk about issues more calmly. There are admissions from Indians that Kashmir has not been handled well by India, and that something will have to be done. There is also less anti-India hatred from the Pakistani side, since the general situation is seen to be more nuanced and not black-and-white. Let’s keep the atmosphere cordial.

What needs to be done from now on? What are the areas where we can continue to make progress?

Regards,
Ganesh Prasad

Posted by prasadgc | Report as abusive

What needs to be done?

A lot actually and that too with our own politicians on each side of border. Pakistan needs a stable democracy and India needs a more intelligent government than this f**g bull**it congress government which has completely undone the progress made under vajpayee government 10 years ago. Its almost after 10 years that a curfew was imposed in Kashmir in India. Until now there were minor incidents but now its curfew. People of India for a change should throw Soniya out of power at once. Under Vajpayee the two sides came very close to signing a peace deal and now this stupid indian cong government has spoiled everything..as we say in hindi. “sab gud gobar kar diya”…@#$@#$#$%!@#@$!@#$%^%&^%
And for Pakistan they need a strong leader Benazir Bhutto who could put end to chaos in Pakistan.

What are the areas where we can continue to make progress?

And so wasting our time writing these blogs is not going to help as internet penetration in india and pakistan is still very low and there are better methods to spread awareness among our fellow countrymen about the truths of the other side. I take from here that not all pakistanis want to subdue/annihilate india and Pakistanis should take from here that India has NO intention of attacking Pakistan or cut their country in half or any stupid thing like that. History cannot be changed but Future CAN BE shaped and We the Present of our respective nations are responsible for shaping the future. So lets not think of past but lets plan for future.

Posted by 777xxx777 | Report as abusive

@”That was just one occassion I lost cool, otherwise I would generally refrain from abusive language if the discussion is civilized.” Posted by Umairpk

I agree with that. Everyone loses it once a while but for most, he’s been civilized. As Prasad said, there’s no need to dig up old issues.

Posted by Mortal1 | Report as abusive

Facebook, YouTube used as weapons in Kashmir fight

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/as_kashmir_in ternet_war

“The 23-year-old, who posts videos to YouTube under names such as “oppressedkashimir1,” is part of a wave of Web-savvy protesters in Indian-controlled Kashmir who have begun using social networking to publicize their fight and keep fellow demonstrators energized and focused.”

“”(I am) an anonymous soldier of Kashmir’s resistance movement, using Facebook and YouTube to fight India,” Ahmed said”

“The protesters, mostly youths wearing jeans and hooded shirts, call themselves “sangbazan,” or the stone pelters. They have covered Srinagar and other major Kashmiri towns with pro-independence graffiti and mounted fierce stone barrages against security forces, sometimes surrounding armored vehicles and throwing stones inside through the firing slats.”

-Unless India arrives at a just settlement of the Kashmir dispute, it will become India’s Gaza. With in no time these stone throwing angry youths will turn to AK-47s and home made rockets. And this Pakistan should not be blamed, it is something happening from within Kashmir.

“Kashmir Bharat ka atut ang nahi hey!”

Posted by Umairpk | Report as abusive

@nvrforgetmbai

Thanks. I confess that article was casually scrolled by me for obvious reasons with focus on bursting lies of just one “person” (sorry humanity).

Hope trust is is then! :)

Posted by Seth | Report as abusive

Pakistan has told India to send its aid through the UN. I guess it is shameful for Pakistanis to take anything from India. The attitude really shows. Pakistani psyche looks at India like an outcast and is willing to refuse direct aid even under adverse circumstances. It clearly shows where the problem lies in improving relations between the two countries. Moments like these are the ones where people and nations generally try to reconcile.

http://www.hindustantimes.com/India-may- send-aid-to-Pakistan-through-UN/H1-Artic le1-593100.aspx

Posted by KPSingh01 | Report as abusive

@777xxx777
Agreed re: remarks on Congress. The government has miserably failed on many issues but reaction-ism has been a hallmark of Indian leaders (and psyche of Indian populace). What else can a country deserve whose people can’t form a queue at the ticket window? Unfortunately, BJP leaders fail to evoke any confidence too so changing government is not the solution perhaps.

@Umair,
Ignoring any alleged support from Pakistan, neither stone-pelting nor AK-47 would help Kashmiris. Lack of leadership may add to the impression that their dissent and struggle is genuine but will not help in the long run in negotiating with government.

Moreover, imagine the scenario when Indian police starts returning the stones with stones instead of bullets. Would that be considered a “peaceful” response to “peaceful” protests? Heck, India can design cannons to throw stones in bulk. What then?

Posted by Seth | Report as abusive

@”Unless India arrives at a just settlement of the Kashmir dispute, it will become India’s Gaza”
Posted by Umairpk

My friend, you guys don’t need to worry about Kashmir. It’s India’s problem & India has the means & resources to deal with it. You worry about Baluchistan, Pakhtunistan etc, which are a lot closer to becoming another East Pakistan than Kashmir is, to becoming another Gaza. Your country has too much on it’s plate right now, to be focused on Kashmir.

Posted by Mortal1 | Report as abusive

“Pakistan has told India to send its aid through the UN. I guess it is shameful for Pakistanis to take anything from India.”

I knew that this is how it was going to turn out. Will we get an article from Myra to sympathize with er explain Pakistan’s concern on receiving direct aid?

Posted by Seth | Report as abusive

I find it amusing that Pakistanis seem to think we covet their territory or something along those lines. I think most Indians will agree with me in saying that most of us would be willing to fight an all out war to prevent any sort of reunification. India has problems as is but is finally beginning to address them in a serious way. The last thing we need is another 180m poor, uneducated people who hate us anyway straining our resources.

Its all very well for some of the peacenicks to go around saying everything will be better this time. So sorry but I do not agree. The simple fact is I do not trust the Pakistani military to uphold any sort of deal reached by a non military government. India should insist on dealing and negotiating directly with the generals – we will not deal with the so called democratic setup because they have no power to deliver anything. Until then, let us just keep the status quo – ignore the Pakistanis until they send people across the border to kill us. When they do, make a huge noise about it and humiliate, embarrass and isolate Pakistan. In the meanwhile, keep building our economy up and dealing with our own, very real problems. A lasting peace between the two will be nice, but is not really necessary for India to do well.

Posted by amitsingh | Report as abusive

@Seth,

Don’t you worry friend, Pakistan will be made to submit to rationality, universal morality, honesty, integrity and brotherhood with its neighbours and the world one day and that day will not be that far away. One day, Pakistan will realize that it must unclench its fist and leave the past behind, otherwise its future will remain foggy and unclear.

Victory and prosperity will always be reserved for those that have a yearning for peace and goodness towards others. Right now the Pakistani heart and psyche does not crave that need for prosperity and victory, it craves its greater need for revenge against India.

That thought form will eventually die out and Pakistani’s will become tired of hating for nothing.

Posted by G-W | Report as abusive

Asking India to route aid through UN is a confused stand by Pakistan. Aid should either be accepted directly or rejected. Suggesting aid to be routed through UN is equivalent to rejection since India needs no one’s advice to route aid through UN.

There is more to it than just that. MOney routed by UN will not reach the victims as fast as Pakistan can deliver if it accepts. If these Pakistani leaders hardly care about the victims why would other countries who have been blamed to be reluctant in donating.

Posted by rehmat | Report as abusive

@”Pakistan has told India to send its aid through the UN. I guess it is shameful for Pakistanis to take anything from India. The attitude really shows.”
Posted by KPSingh01

The world is watching & taking note of Pakistan’s arrogance. India did the right thing by setting aside differences & offering aid to a hostile neighbour in need but Pakistan is showing to the world that it won’t give up enimity & animosity even in times of dire crisis. This shows Pakistan in poor light & I believe it will lead to it’s further isolation, once the dust settles in.

Posted by Mortal1 | Report as abusive

@The world is watching & taking note of Pakistan’s arrogance. India did the right thing by setting aside differences & offering aid to a hostile neighbour in need but Pakistan is showing to the world that it won’t give up enimity & animosity even in times of dire crisis. This shows Pakistan in poor light & I believe it will lead to it’s further isolation, once the dust settles in.
by Mortal

-Pakistan hs done the wise thing and taken the middle route by asking India to desposit the $5 million in UN flood response appeal. The initial appeal of UN flood response was for $460 million out of which 64% has been funded to date. India’s contribution of $5 million will go into that fund.
Having said that, lets be clear that relief efforts by ordinary Pakistani citizens, armed forces, businessmen, TV stations and media outlets, NGOs, social workers, political parties etc are in full swing. Everyone is contributing one way or other, truckload of food and water supplies are being collected everyday by Army and sent to affected areas. C-130 aircrafts have created an airbridge between Gilgit Baltistan and rest of the country. A nation which is resilient and knows how to face crises with dignity and emerge out of it and get back to its feet, Pakistan has rightly asked India to take the UN route to channel the aid. With India the nature of relationship is different and there are sensitivities involved. With US the relationship is different, they have deployed Navy helicopters, crewmen in support of relief and rescue operations. Whereas relations with India are still unfriendly. Hopefully, in such natural disasters both countries will refrain from politics and focus on the affected people.

Posted by Umairpk | Report as abusive

http://www.ispr.gov.pk/front/main.asp?o= t-week_view&id=1448#wv_link1448

Operation “LABBAIK”(Ready to obey order)

Relief and Rescue operations by Pakistan armed forces in full swing.

Posted by Umairpk | Report as abusive

@you guys don’t need to worry about Kashmir. It’s India’s problem & India has the means & resources to deal with it.”
Mortal

-Kashmir is a dispute with three parties involved, India, Pakistan and Kashmiris. So lets be clear on this one, Kashmir is not India’s problem alone. Kashmir runs in our blood, it is Pakistan’s jugular vein. A muslim majority state with linkages to Pakistan, and the people of Kashmir have their own aspirations too. Today they are using soft methods like social media networking, YouTube, Facebook etc to rally themselves. India might have a lot of resources to deal with it, but the will of people is greater than anything.

Posted by Umairpk | Report as abusive

Umair,

Obviously Kashmir is an important and emotive issue for you. I would like to understand your stance on the Kashmiri Hindus (Pundits) who were made to flee the Kashmir Valley in the 90s thanks to threats by militants. What rights (if any) do you believe they have? It would be good if you could make a statement on that.

Regards,
Ganesh Prasad

Posted by prasadgc | Report as abusive

@Ganesh,

Ganesh, either Umair will not answer to you, or Umair will just say, “it suited those Hindus to leave”, or “those hindus left on their own”.

Umair, will never answer truthfully, where it makes his Fauji friends appear guilty, he just stays mysteriously silent, or changes the topic and just throws another rhetorical question right back about the Indian army or something.

Umair does not really care about Hindus, heck I do not know if he even considered them to be worth even discussing as he holds little value on Hindu life, even Bengali Hindu holocaust victims, he took great pleasure at some Racist Australians that harassed Hindu Students some time back, all of that is in the blogs.

It is truly sad, when some people are so indoctrinated in their version of God and religion, that they cannot even hold human value for others, but denigrate, make fun of other’s religious values or how they worship.

Umair only cares of the plight of muslims only, he does not care less of what Muslims have done to Hindus. Umair does not care what the Chinese have done to Buddhists and what really blindsides me was how he stays silent on the Uighers, who are being subjugated by the Chinese. He is quick to highlight the Kashmiri’s but does not say a damn word on the Uighers or Hindu Kashmiri Pundits.

He only wants to focus on Akhbar the great, but never on Aurangzeb or the other ruthless ones. If you ask Umair a question, he will answer it selectively, never comprehensively, he continuously evades fully answering it, because it will expose the holes in his value system.

Posted by G-W | Report as abusive

@”Kashmir is not India’s problem alone. Kashmir runs in our blood, it is Pakistan’s jugular vein” Posted by Umairpk

In other words, you’ll keep poking your nose & continue to export terrorism in J&K. Great!

Posted by Mortal1 | Report as abusive

@”Today they are using soft methods like social media networking, YouTube, Facebook etc to rally themselves”
Posted by Umairpk

Give some credence to the fact that they can use those online networking & media sites in India. If they were in Pakistan, China etc, internet content would have been csnsured/banned a long time ago.

Posted by Mortal1 | Report as abusive

Umair said:
“Pakistan has rightly asked India to take the UN route to channel the aid. With India the nature of relationship is different and there are sensitivities involved. With US the relationship is different, they have deployed Navy helicopters, crewmen in support of relief and rescue operations. Whereas relations with India are still unfriendly. Hopefully, in such natural disasters both countries will refrain from politics and focus on the affected people.”

At one place you say that countries should remain from politics and at another you try to defend the unfriendly gestures of your government. People in India are talking about grabbing the opportunity of making Pakistan feel at ease and you people seem to be focussed on keeping these unfriendly relations alive.

Understand this Umair:

Despite of resentment at home, Indian government goes forward and make a friendly gesture by offering aid. Every journalist here seem to justify Indian aid to pacify and tweak public opinion and make them see through their angst. The message that goes to general public – We’ve to make peace and friendship with Pakistan because that is the way.

You government, despite of dire situation at home, first hesitates in accepting aid. Then your FM informs about acceptance of offer in UN meeting for obvious reasons, then this new political stunt of channeling it through UN. I don’t know how your Urdu press has taken the offer so won’t comment on it. But looking at the actions of your government alone, the message that goes to the public – Yes, we care for your welfare and hence we’ve accepted aid EVEN from India. But we don’t support any friendly relations at the cost of your (our, in reality) dignity.

In other words, a country whose leadership nurtures such false notions of dignity and pride is on the destructive path of alienation and destitution. Your leadership is not even trying to change public opinion to create grounds for friendly relations in future and that, my friend, is not a good news for you.

Posted by Seth | Report as abusive

GW,
Within few hours of Ganesh asking that question, you start speculating what Umair’s answer going to be. Why not let Umair answer Ganesh’s Qn and then discuss? that would be more helpful.

Posted by rehmat | Report as abusive

Umair:
you said—Pakistan hs done the wise thing and taken the middle route by asking India to desposit the $5 million in UN flood response appeal. The initial appeal of UN flood response was for $460 million out of which 64% has been funded to date. India’s contribution of $5 million will go into that fund.”

—Umair: I see you are intelligent enough to have ur own opinion rather than blindly supporting Pakistan govt or Army policies. There will be other times to massage their ego. Not in this crisis.

you should do what a flood victim will do. Victim will never ask Pakistan to get into politics at this time.

The way I see is that Pakistan asking India to route aid through UN is silly because 1. Indian aid directly in Pakistan;s hands can reach the victims directly 2. Indian Aid (or for that matter any other aid) via UN will take time to reach the victims and part of it will be spent towards maintainence of these organizations; so less money in the end.

Victims need money sooner than later and more the better.

Posted by rehmat | Report as abusive

@Seth
My friend, I stated that the $5 million in aid should not be politicized. Thanks for contribution by India and it is welcomed with respect with an intention to repay if Godforbid Indian people suffer a natural calamity.

@Ganesh and G-W
I am not in a position to answer the question on Kashmiri pundits, my history knowledge on that is not good. Let me do some research on that and I might get back to it some time in future.
As with your notion G-W, when I have lived and worked abroad with hindus, and sizeable sikh and hindu minority within Pakistan. The slogan is ‘geo aure gene do’ live and let live.

Posted by Umairpk | Report as abusive

Umair,

> I am not in a position to answer the question on Kashmiri pundits, my history knowledge on that is not good. Let me do some research on that and I might get back to it some time in future.

I look forward to it. It has often been said here that it takes two hands to clap, so I’m hoping we can agree on all the aspects of this thorny and contentious problem, not just some of them.

> geo aure gene do

I hope you don’t mind me pulling your leg on this :-). If you had been Rex Minor, I would have sworn this was a Latin phrase meaning ‘world gold produces two’. I guess I’m used to seeing it spelt ‘jiyo aur jeene do’.

Regards,
Ganesh Prasad

Posted by prasadgc | Report as abusive

Other day I was watching a movie called “Once Upon a Time in Mexico”, and our hero ‘El Mariachi’(Antonio Bandareas) give the dialogue, “Whenever u have to kill the evil, always start at top”.

U ask any pakistani about kashmiri pundits and they go mum about it, even worse most think that pundits deserved the treatments they got and now same treatment is given to sikhs in kashmir. The people of pakistan have been so dammn brainwashed that they c only one side of the picture. India has an independent media structure and there is complete liberty of peaceful expression. (This same liberty of media cost us dear during mumbai attacks) But in Pakistan is it so??? NOOOOO. and there have been thousands of examples where editors have been put behind bars for exposing government in pakistan. So one should not expect answers/honest answers/legitimate answers/ from people like Umair who have been completely brainwashed on Kashmir by the authorities in Pakistan. They c only what is SHOWN to them and know only what is TOLD to them by their governments/military.
So to get through with Pakistan we need to kill the evil at top..the administration..and Vajpayee government did that job extremely well. But looking at current set of indian leaders, as Seth said, not a single one is that capable. and therefore we have no choice but to wait and watch.
BTW Umair while u study history and find about Kashmiri Pundits, also try to “research” about the present about why sikhs are being threatened in kashmir in india. For not being muslim????

Posted by 777xxx777 | Report as abusive

A hilarious comment in this news item: http://bit.ly/cAIvu5

“Yousuf Raza Gilani, Pakistan’s prime minister, criticised donations made to foreign NGOs rather than the Pakistani government, saying the money would be wasted.

“Eighty per cent of the aid will not come to you directly,” he said on Sunday, referring to Pakistani citizens.

“It will come through their NGOs, and they will eat half of it,” he said.”

I think his emphasis would have been on the “they”. LOL

Regards,
Ganesh Prasad

Posted by prasadgc | Report as abusive

I get the impression from many comments that there are some who are genuinely interested to have peace between India and Pakistan. The sad part is that Indian peoples track record is not very encouraging. Recently a German journalist remarked that in 1947 the Indian people did not keep to the decolonisation agreement and forced the migration of millions of muslims to Pakistan.
In my view the Indian leaders at the time had no total support of their people and they were simply making agreements above their heads. Has the situation changed now? I believe that there hss been one change in India and that is that even the leaders of India do not want peace with India or for that matter with any other neighbour. We all know that one cannot for ever subjugate people against their will, and yet India has no intention to leave Kashmir?
So please with all your good will there will be no peace between India and Pakistan, the truce is a better choice.
The current Pakistani Govt. need to resign and replace it with a National Govt. to plan the task of restoring the space. It was wrong on the part of Pakistan Govt to accept a charity from India.
Rex Minor
Rex Minor

Posted by pakistan | Report as abusive

@RexMinor, UmairPk,

Umair,

You go ahead and research those positions, but you never seem to need research on positions take in Pakistan towards India on many other issues. While you are at it, please also take the time to research Hindu Genocides, please do evade this topic no longer and please no longer be disingenuous and selective in your analysis.

@Rex Minor,

I was right was I not?, Umair, just created another reason to not answer, now he needs to “research”. That is fine, I am sure he will take decades to research something and if he does, his sources will all be Islamically Tilted and biased towards making Pakistan avoid facing ground realities and truths.

Rex, you also quoted some German, who is and why are you putting credence on one source, who claims to know how Indians were some 60 years ago, can you cite anybody or anything in today’s times?

Once you get the cobwebs cleaned out of your coconut and in today’s times, you will realize that Indians are DO NOT want Pakistan harm, all they want is resolution of all issues in a fair and transparent manner.

We will discuss Kashmir openly, but YOU will also be force d to discuss Pakistan occupied Kashmir as well and its legal legitimacy and this may also open up plebescites on other areas in Pakistan like Balochistan.

So, do you need to do more research on Kashmiri Hindu pundits too?…or are you silent like some weasel as well? Is there a lack on information on Hindu pain in Pakistan? Is it only Islamic pain that you are both so well versed on?

Have I made my point here?

Posted by G-W | Report as abusive

@RexMinor, Umair, Ganesh

Oh..BTW…I do not like your version of Pakistan. I like versions of moderate and rational Pakistan like Imran Khan and Nadeem Paracha.

It is time the Fauji’s get their useless axx out of the fxxken way and provide hope for the people of Pakistan and let Imran and the likes of Nadeem shape the politics of Pakistan and bring Pakistan into the modern world.

Pakistani governance and politics are complete trainwreck and so is the pysche of a lot of even educated Pakistani’s.

BTW….madrasa does not count as education, nor does it count as literacy.

@Ganesh

I am ready to donate more to Pakistan, but I am sure, no Pakistani here will perseverate about all of the Hindus and Indians willing to help. That truth and goodwill is as good as worthy to keep in memory and history books as toilet paper is to flush down the toilet.

I know that donating through NGO’s like Red Cross have high overheads, but I would rather do that than have the Pak Gov.t or politicians pocket the inflowing cash at a time of need.

The poor need more help.

Posted by G-W | Report as abusive

@777xxx777

It is pointless discussing anything with Pakistani’s who want to maintain the Punjabi Army Raj of pakistan, they will continuously evade, evade and evade.

They cannot face the truth, nor speak of it out of fear and shame and potential reprisals for speaking of things that are out of the norm.

@Umair, Rex Minor,

You two need to start educating yourself a little more, perhaps Imran and Nadeem can do a better job mentoring and teaching you about a more modernized and comprehensive political outlook on the past, present and future of your country.

If you need to research anything like Pundits or Genocide, feel to google it and when you have taken the time to look over the grotesque pictures and fully research all the details as you will be asked again.

I am fully confident that either you will completely fail to choose to research those topics, or you will completely remain silent and status quo remains.

As for Kashmir, I do think there should be Plebescite in Kashmir, I also think there should be a Plebescite in PoK as well, a properly administered one by an independent third party, and a UN/NATO miltary presence to prevent cheating, without undo duress and undo mafia like influence from Islamabad.

Kashmiri’s deserve to truthfully speak on both sides a the same time to achieve their rights. I mean all Kashmiri’s, even the Hindus that live there.

Posted by G-W | Report as abusive

Hey Rex my boy I was kind of missing u….how about a repeat of your Not-A-Nation theory on India and Pakistan…

I promise all bloggers a good dose of laughter…come on Rex show them what u got…

He is just one of those westerners who thinks all negative about India as it was shown to him by western media since cold war times when Nehruji decided to not align with anyone but still liked Russia mora than NATO….And a great defender of Pakistan and a PhD on Taliban as he knows more than anyone else how innocent and soft Talibanis are..right Rex??

I have been to Kashmir in India a few times on business purpose. And I have talked to people there from very low income strata to upto a VP of a big bank. Almost all of them say they do not want anything called independence all they want is a little more autonomy and definitely NOT pakistan. Because most of them believe in India’s economics and growth and hence progress in Kashmir. It is a just a bunch of small pests and viruses who keep on disturbing the equation for their personal profits and benefits and who are but obviously backed by Pakistan ISI.
And most of the Kashmiri muslims DID NOT wanted hindu pandits to leave but instead blame all that on Pakistan militancy…but i believe it was fault of indian govt as well for not protecting them and this f****g congress govt is doing the same even now by not protecting sikhs in Kashmir today.
As I have always maintained its not the people its the administration that is corrupt on both sides…more so on Pakistan side.

Posted by 777xxx777 | Report as abusive

@Rex Minor
“It was wrong on the part of Pakistan Govt to accept a charity from India.”

WOW WOW WOW WOW WOW

It is ok to take alms from USA, Europe, UK, etc but not correct to take aid from India. Well done Rex u have shown ur real horrible ugly face.

I hope Pakistanis learn from this how these bloody westerners want to keep India and Pakistan fighting each other for decades to come so that they keep ruling us financially. They fear India Pakistan peace so much that they advice us to not be friends even in time of distress and human life loss. Such is the fear of India Pakistan peace in minds of everyone else. But why this fear?? Because if India Pakistan join hands then very shortly Bhutan, Nepal, Bangladesh, Sri Lanka will also want to join in the commerce and free trade arrangement and may be in long terms Japan also. And that will undermine the financial rule of west in Asia.

See the prize of peace is so big and fight is so small. West always knew it and hence always found one reason or the other to make india pakistan fight.

Its time we ALL c thru lies and realize the truths, accept mistakes of past with open heart and move on. The prize is bigger than imagination of anyone in this world.

Posted by 777xxx777 | Report as abusive

hi 777xx777,

I am surprised on your observation about Nehru deciding anything, Nehru never decided anything for India, he only decided about women and alcohol which were his obsession . So please don’t be under any illusion about Nehru deciding anything about India ?

Secondly, if autonomy is what kashmiris want, why the successors of Nehru now in power are shy of holding a referendum , this is what your Nehru wanted , why
are they shy away from the great Nehru’s dream?

My friend,all nehru was interested in F********** Edwina,Nehru never had any love for this country. he left a big heap of garbage : kashmir, Indo-China relationship, Tibet, which today we have to carry .

Posted by manishindia | Report as abusive

For your kind information Non-Alignment movement was a brainchild of Nehru only and that is what I referred to. Shy of holding referendum because demographics have changed a lot from then and now. And Nehru never wanted a referendum it was forced on him by UN. Nehru was foolish enough to accept it. And if he left a heap of garbage still then it is our responsibility to clean it up. bickering amongst us about past is not going to solve anything. And please no need to get dramatic like this. I was merely making a point why people in West (specially Europe) do not like India much because pakistan joined NATO and India did not and Nehru was then Prime Minister.

It will be good if we use our heads rather than hearts and c the big picture rather than taunting each other on minor details. Using hearts for past 60 years have left scars on both sides.

Posted by 777xxx777 | Report as abusive

Rex:

Brother you seriously missing the pulse of people in this region—Pakistan and India both. I suggest you plug you information gap. It will help you in forming a better opinion.

Some of your suggestions (especially throw this govt and that govt and bring in National govt) are your fantasy. We live in real world. What you are asking for is changing the DNA of Indians and Pakistanis and taking them some where away from South Asia.

manishindia:

I am surprised you saying that about Nehru. you pulled a leaflet from the propaganda book and put it up here. Are you not overstepping a lot by saying “Nehru never had any love for this country.”? and “he [Nehru] only decided about women and alcohol which were his obsession”. It is true that he was romantic and most likely true that he had affair with Edwina. This is utter non-sense. That he made mistakes such as dragging Kashmir in UN, 1962, Tibet is no evidence for lack of his love for the country. I am astonished. Why do we tend to make some old freedom fighters heroes and other villains? We are no better than political parties who divide them so. We reflect what is happening at the top and what will happen in the future.

Posted by rehmat | Report as abusive

777xxx777:

You are mistaken.

At this point, Kashmiris want to live neither in India nor in Pakistan.

let us not fool ourselves. So far the majority wants independence. At best, we do not know about what Kashmiris really think about autonomy (i am not talking about opinion of some but a large population). I am not a big fan of taking the opinion of 10 or 100 random people as an opinion of the majority. This is statistical meaningless.

Personally my wish is Kashmiris get autonomy wherever they are. But they need to be convinced. Both India and Pakistan leaders need to work at it for everyone’s peace. So far we are at least one generation away from this thinking to evolve.

Posted by rehmat | Report as abusive

@rehmat
“let us not fool ourselves. So far the majority wants independence. At best, we do not know about what Kashmiris really think about autonomy (i am not talking about opinion of some but a large population). I am not a big fan of taking the opinion of 10 or 100 random people as an opinion of the majority. This is statistical meaningless. ”

How are you so sure of representing the majority?

“At this point, Kashmiris want to live neither in India nor in Pakistan”

In that case they are making a big time mistake. A land locked country surrounded by giants as China, Pakistan and India (in their respective order of probability of attacking Independent Kashmir) ready to eat away its land resources. This pill of so called freedom will look sweet for some time but when honeymoon will get over they will realise that they are very very heavily dependent on Indian and Pakistani governments for their survival and the government in so called independent kashmir will just be puppets of India and Pakistan authorities. Its far better to remain part of the nation in which they are and get into mainstream and look forward to progress. And thats what Kashmiris need to understand. there is a fine line between bravery and foolishness.

Posted by 777xxx777 | Report as abusive

@Rex Minor
“It was wrong on the part of Pakistan Govt to accept a charity from India.”

–>Rex, why don’t you do a favour for your countrymen dying from floods and terrorism, either you can choose to drown yourself in the floods, or suicide vest yourself out of the gene-pool, if want Pakistan to not accept flood money. W

While you are at, please feel free to do this in the company of like minded people, so you can keep each other company, when you have ended it and are all looking up at the ones who do want to live in peace.

Again, feel free to remove yourself from the human gene pool, at your discretion, at a time and method of your choosing, if it nerves you that the evil green horned Indians are helping your countrymen survive and make the best out of a hellish situation.

Perhaps you should not have to bear such a dehumanizing act of mercy from India, or anyone and spare us the gibberish and and just go away some how.

Would you rather Pakistani’s suffer and die, than receive aid?

Go get your head checked you fool.

Posted by G-W | Report as abusive

777xxx777:

http://qa.blogs.reuters.com/pakistan/tag  /kashmir-valley/

http://in.reuters.com/article/idINIndia- 50646920100805

Please read those articles and you will see what the majority wants.
This is based upon survey by Chatham house. I am not sure whether autonomy was studied as an option in the survey or not.

“In that case they are making a big time mistake. A land locked country surrounded by giants as China, Pakistan and India (in their respective order of probability of attacking Independent Kashmir) ready to eat away its land resources.”

***That is arguable. What would you tell Kashmiris why not to give them what they deserve. Convincing is possible but difficult. With time it will become even more difficult.

Practically speaking, I tend to agree with you. It is bit late now. That is why i said there is a need to convince Kashmiris by both India and Pakistan that autonomy is best for 3 parties. That is also why I said it will need one generation time since that is not an easy process. Leaders from 3 parties are weak and no where near sitting to talk about it. Also, people from 3 places do not agree on it. Indians know Kashmiris want to separate from India yet they do not want to let go that part (great economy is given as a reason), Pakistan says Kashmir will become Pakistan (based upon religion of the majority) and Kashmiris say Kashmir will be free (because it always has been thus as they claim). Honesty of the purpose is no where near sight. The chances that 3 great leaders representing 3 parties will emerge and can get the mandate of the population for a common cause is very low. Throw in Fasaddis (trouble makers), we got an impossible situation at hand.

Posted by rehmat | Report as abusive

@”Indians know Kashmiris want to separate from India yet they do not want to let go that part (great economy is given as a reason)” Posted by rehmat

Economy is not the reason why Indians claim Kashmir. The ruler of Kashmir acceeded all of Kashmir to India as per the Independance of India Act of 1947. Therefore, India has a legal right over all of Kashmir, including PoK. But I agree with you that strong leadership is needed in India, Pakistan & Kashmir in order to clear this logjam. Compromises will have to be made by all 3 parties to arrive at a solution. India & Pakistan will have to drop their claims on the Kashmir controlled by the other, give real autonomy to their respective Kashmir’s & work towards normalizing relations with each other, whereby Kashmiri borders can become irrelevant. Kashmiris on the other hand will have to give up the demand for independence, be content with autonomy & work towards the progress of their people. IMO, Independence of Kashmir is not an option as neither India & nor Pakistan will aree to it and given it’s startegic location, it would be in the best interest of Kashmiris to remain integral but autonmous parts of India & Pakistan.

Posted by Mortal1 | Report as abusive

Kashmir’s independence will cause a major uproar in today’s India. No politician in India wants to bell that cat. The only other option is to grant it autonomy within the Indian framework. Likewise, Azad Kashmir can go with Pakistan. It already is with Pakistan. But an official stamp can be placed to confirm it. India will keep its troops along the borders facing Pakistan, but will not be able to bring them into settling any issues inside the autonomous Kashmir. There is too much ego involved. Look at how Pakistan handled disaster aid from India. If they cannot even accept a friendly gesture, where is the guarantee that they will accept anything else? Pakistan now has fallen sick severely. It will have no choice but to focus on recovery. They’d like to take on India regarding Kashmir, but they are too weak to sustain any support or conflict for Kashmir. So India has the best opportunity to sit down with local Kashmiris and work out a settlement. It will be mutual between India and the Kashmiris on the Indian side. If the two parties agree to a settlement, then things can move on. But if Kashmiris want to keep pelting stones and stage riots, India is going to turn more adamant. Confrontation is not the way to resolve any issue. The elders in Kashmir should tell their youth to listen and handle the situation. Youth have no idea how to handle things other than rely on strikes, stone throwing and violence. Mob frenzy can spread very easily amongst the youth. Most picture I am seeing on Kashmir show the Indian security personnel being on the ground getting clobbered by the Kashmiri youth. In the US, if you mess with the cops, they will shoot you down. And they all stand united after that. It is not possible to drive a military out with stones. If this is done with the intention of forcing the armed forces to retaliate with bullets, create an international outcry and force India to the negotiating table, its timing is terribly wrong. India is moved over from the opposite side of the cold war into the good books of the world powers. They understand India better and want to be on its side. Kashmir and Pakistan missed their chances in the 1990s when everything was in their favor. Now Pakistan has fallen in world view and respect. Any side being supported by Pakistan is being looked at with aversion. None of the powers want another Taliban ruling Kashmir to provide strategic depth to the Pak military. Therefore Kashmiri youth will need to come to the negotiating table. Within a couple of months cold season will start and who knows what other crises are waiting for the world? Just work with India and do not take the wrong side. If India was a backward swamp like Congo, one can understand the plight of Kashmiris. But India is an emerging economy where life is only getting better. Therefore it does not make much sense for the world powers to acknowledge the demand of Kashmiris to detach themselves from India due to their religion. That experiment has been tried in the case of Pakistan and has proven to be a miserable failure. No one wants to repeat the same mistake twice, especially India. We need to settle for something that is acceptable not only to the Kashmiris, but also to India.

Posted by KPSingh01 | Report as abusive

Seth, I hope u made the donation.

Posted by nvrforgetmbai | Report as abusive

G-W:
“Again, feel free to remove yourself from the human gene pool, at your discretion, at a time and method of your choosing, if it nerves you that the evil green horned Indians are helping your countrymen survive and make the best out of a hellish situation.”

not green but saffron horned. :)

The situation is quite pitiable the worst part is that if our Indian leaders so decide then they can move masses of relief supplies down to Wagah in hours. Food, medicines, tents, cement, but nobody has the political will. I absolutely detest the current Congress govt – showing no leadership. If we show decency and willingness to help Pakistan then even if Pakistan govt and people like Rex Minor respond churlishly (which they have) it does not matter. We would have done the right thing.

Sometimes, we should think what would Gandhiji do faced with this situation?

Posted by nvrforgetmbai | Report as abusive

Mortal1 said “Economy is not the reason why Indians claim Kashmir. The ruler of Kashmir acceeded all of Kashmir to India as per the Independance of India Act of 1947. Therefore, India has a legal right over all of Kashmir, including PoK.”

****Mortal1, What I am talking about is not why India (or Pakistan) claims Kashmir. I am not getting back to that stinking discussion where India will claim legal right and Pakistan will ask whether that accession document indeed exists or not. That is past. We are talking about solution. What has India got to offer to Kashmiris: good economic growth and the opportunities that come with it. That was my only point.

let us face it it is not easy to convince people whose near and dear ones have been shot dead. Autonomy cannot be enforced upon them. It is the only practical solution and is not impossible. What we are talking about is counseling Kashmiris instead of giving them plebiscite. It is impossible to make everyone happy but main players need to be on board and that includes militant organizations.

Posted by rehmat | Report as abusive

@nvrforgetmbai
I did, didn’t you read my previous post?

Posted by Seth | Report as abusive

“worst part is that if our Indian leaders so decide then they can move masses of relief supplies down to Wagah in hours. Food, medicines, tents, cement, but nobody has the political will”

And once it reaches Wagah border, it will either be left to rot or India would be asked to re-route it through UN. Detest you may but what would you like Congress (or anyone) to do? Anyways, if Congress is doing a lousy job the opposition parties are equally to be blamed as they are so weak in opposition that Congress does not feel threatened by them at all. Things would turn out the same in any similar democratic scenario when main opposition like BJP is so confused about themselves that they resort to choosing anti-terrorism as their main election agenda when entire world is suffering from this demon.

Posted by Seth | Report as abusive

Yes we need leadership that can convince Kashmiris that independence is not in best of their interests mainly not because of india and pakistan but because of dragon with its mouth wide open to eat away any available resource and Independent Kashmir will be an easy target for it and Tibet is a glaring example of that. And if Kashmiris go under China then they will lose any power to hold any demonstrations as they do in so called “Gulam” Kashmir. Dragon will tell them true meaning of gulam as china gave bullets in reply to stones from tibetians.

And i think leadership on indian soil is enough to drive everything in place, we need another rajiv or vajpayee but as stated by many here that we dont c that leadership coming for generations to come. And without a leadership in india nothing can really move on.

Posted by 777xxx777 | Report as abusive

Better it rots at indo-Pak border than in FCI warehouses. At least we would have tried. If we make a serious attempt and even then get rebuffed, we should walk away. But make a serious attempt. BTW – food, medicines and cement would be seriously cheaper if bought from India. So the relief dollars can deliver more aid – more bang for the same buck.

As for the current Congress govt, they seem like an army of pygmies – very few people with any stature or thinking. The Congress govt in Maharastra just recd the dubious honor of being the most corrupt state in India- ahead of Andhra. :(

And lastly, sorry that I missed ur post on the Hope Trust.

Posted by nvrforgetmbai | Report as abusive

So is this to be the next war of words between Indians and Pakistanis – whose government is more corrupt?

:-(

Regards,
Ganesh Prasad

Posted by prasadgc | Report as abusive

Rex Minor said: “The current Pakistani Govt. need to resign and replace it with a National Govt. to plan the task of restoring the space. It was wrong on the part of Pakistan Govt to accept a charity from India.”

Umairpk expressed similar views.

*** I am sure these commenters know that 45% of Pakistan is dipped in water. Among the affected are the kids who need milk and food, there is fight for food, politicians are routing relief supply to certain areas of their interest, disaster management by pakistan is in poor shape and is leading to duplicate supplies to certain areas. Affected include all classes: poor, lower to upper middle class and even very rich. In the end poor get affected the most since all they have is their home and home is gone.

Rex and umair have the luxury to play politics sitting in Europe or an unaffected area of Pakistan about no aid/or no direct aid from India.

The situation demands not to deny help from anyone. There will be better times to play these games.

Posted by rehmat | Report as abusive

Aid amount got hiked by $20mn to now sum total of US$25m. I think Pakistan should just take it esp as it is routed through UN and WFP.

On corruption, leakages in projects like roads, power, health, education etc is estd at 50-60%. Just imagine – if the full monies got utilized then we would have 50-60% more outcome. The CW games corruption was astronomical. These are our tax rupees and we should all be very concerned.

Posted by nvrforgetmbai | Report as abusive

@Ganesh
“So is this to be the next war of words between Indians and Pakistanis – whose government is more corrupt?”

Yeah that way everyone is a winner because both governments try their best to be MORE corrupt than their counterparts on other side of the border. :) Dont know about Pakistan but in India the politicians take only one oath in assemblies-”I will absolutely not do any work without taking bribes”. And that is why we do not have a solution to our problems in India and Pakistan which includes Kashmir as well. If we can first wage a war on corruption and poverty than may be in 100 years we can find solution to kashmir as well. And since Kashmir is a political issue so discussing which side politics is more corrupt is appropriate.

Posted by 777xxx777 | Report as abusive

777
” Dont know about Pakistan but in India the politicians take only one oath in assemblies-”I will absolutely not do any work without taking bribes”. And that is why we do not have a solution to our problems in India and Pakistan which includes Kashmir as well. If we can first wage a war on corruption and poverty than may be in 100 years we can find solution to kashmir as well. ”

-I think here in Pakistan, this Peoples Party government has set new records on corruption, fake degrees, deceiving politicians, incompetence, inability. We did not have such a government ever in the history of Pakistan too.

Posted by Umairpk | Report as abusive

Hey Umair, what about your research on Kashmiri pandits and why are sikhs being threatened today in Kashmir? We all are eagerly waiting for your research results…

Posted by 777xxx777 | Report as abusive

bloggers, here is an interesting article relating to some of the causes of the floods, it seems poor planning and deforestation by Taliban over time has removed the assimilative capacity of the land to manage surface water in a more effective form, resulting in floods.

http://www.torontosun.com/news/world/201 0/08/31/15194606.html

@Umair,

Please share the research on Kashmiri Pundits.

You also said:

“-I think here in Pakistan, this Peoples Party government has set new records on corruption, fake degrees, deceiving politicians, incompetence, inability. We did not have such a government ever in the history of Pakistan too.”

–>While it is true, the most functioning political entity in your country is the Army, it certainly is corrupt to the core, no different than the mafia, the way it has kept a grip on Pakistan and bled it dry of cash and potential.

You always selectively point out faults and reason. I have worked with Paks and they all resentfully tell me how the Fauji’s always get the best of everything, discounts, land, jobs, all of these things are reserved for them.

So much money to fatten the Fauji’s so that they can keep their business niche and line their pockets, there is no money left for true developement of Pakistan, true education, research, social programs, more infrastructure, healthcare.

Faujistan is the other corrupt entity, and like a financial vampire, it has hoarded much money at the expense of Pakistan’s potential and image. Search your heart, you cannot deny this, you know this is true.

Posted by G-W | Report as abusive

Yeah, one of my cousins is in Indian Navy as an permanent commissioned officer of Navy. He told me that all the corresponding officers of Pak Military are almost twice as much paid as corresponding to indian military officers in absolute dollar terms.

I believe this was done deliberately by pakistan politicians to make military a lucrative career in pakistan so that more and more young blood gets into military and hence hatred against india could be fuelled forever. Such a long sighted careful planning it is.

Posted by 777xxx777 | Report as abusive

@corruption: India took a critical baby step in aceessing the account information of Indians in Swiss bank. It is not as simple as asking over the phone.

Posted by chakde | Report as abusive

777xxx777: “all the corresponding officers of Pak Military are almost twice as much paid as corresponding to indian military officers in absolute dollar terms.”

The currency exchange rate between Indian and Pakistani rupee is 1.81.

http://www.x-rates.com/d/INR/table.html

That is Indian rupee is almost twice as strong as the Pakistani one. If a Pakistani navy officer gets twice the pay of the Indian one, from purchasing power stand point, they have the same parity. In Pakistan, from a relative pay scale stand point, working for the military might appear more lucrative. In India the reasons are different.

Posted by KPSingh01 | Report as abusive

GW said “So much money to fatten the Fauji’s so that they can keep their business niche and line their pockets, there is no money left for true developement of Pakistan, true education, research, social programs, more infrastructure, healthcare.”
*****Same thing happens in India. Replace Pakistan Army with Indian policians and bureaucrats, result is same.
Out of 1 rupee that GOI allocates only some paisa finally trickle down for the real cause? Power corrupts.

Posted by rehmat | Report as abusive

Rehmat:
It was Nehru who in his bid to win international accolade neglecting popular public opinion, he took up the Kashmir issue to UN and proposed a plebiscite , then why did he not hold the plebiscite, at that time he was the most populat man in India, his little-little gestures were respected all over the nation, what prevented him from holding plebiscite? The answer is Nehru was educated in UK, and he realised this perfectly well to win minority votes, he will have to keep Kashmir issue alive. At no point he was interested in well-being of India , this is now quite evidenby his action of keeping Krishna Mennon as defense minister even at the height of Indo-China war .

Rehmat, I donot know your nationality, Nehru created Indo-Pak dispute in the form of Kashmir and his successors mastered in this art of keeping it alive. For nation-building people with strong character are required , Nehru was a womaniser, a chronic alcoholic ,by no imagination Nehru was an India lover.

Posted by manishindia | Report as abusive

manishindia:

I am Indian.

We heard each other loud & clear. The context of the entry does not allow me to get into further discussion.

I disagree with you but I respect your opinion.

Posted by rehmat | Report as abusive

@manishindia

I assume that you were not alive in the times of Nehru and you probably heard all these stories from your elders or other sources. Have you ever pondered what all these leader-bashers (and probably their ancestors) were doing when people like Nehru were making destructive foreign policies and tossing with our nation? Their motherland’s PM was womanizing and doing whatnots and those people were silently watching while wearing bangles!

Perhaps the reality is that being a leader/politician is a thankless job and whatever people we find in today’s politics are the best people at present who can do the job. They have come from the pool of available talent and they more or less represent the collective consciousness of the people they govern. Anyone who can do it better should (and would) come forward and do it.

Finally, people find it very convenient (and safe) to blame the defenseless dead people but not only its unethical, it is pointless too.

Posted by Seth | Report as abusive

correction to previous post: ” … assume that you were not BORN ….”

Posted by Seth | Report as abusive

We need to look at Nehru

1. Compared to other leaders of newly-free colonies
2. Compared to Indian politicians today
3. In terms of the things he did do

1. Look at what happened to Ghana under Nkrumah and Indonesia under Soekarno. Corruption and despotism. Egypt’s Nasser and Yugoslavia’s Tito were only slightly better. They were charismatic leaders but still authoritarian. Their legacy is obvious. Egypt is still a police state, and Yugoslavia imploded when Tito died. The fact that Nehru’s 16 year tenure has left India in relatively good shape as a continuing democracy should count in his favour.

2. Randomly pick a politician today who would have made a better leader than Nehru. Someone less prone to vices, more concerned about the country than their own interests, etc. Can you think of any?

3. Nehru didn’t twiddle his thumbs for 16 years. The five year plans, the green revolution, the emphasis on science and technology (Nehru was an agnostic), the public sector (it was a good idea for the times, since the private sector would not have had the funds or the inclination to develop the core sectors of the economy), the pragmatic federalism (I think it was a good idea to let India naturally fracture along its linguistic fault lines to provide people with a sense of autonomy), the regular elections, etc. He built the foundations that we stand on, so let’s not be ungrateful.

I consider Nehru to have left India with only one negative legacy – his daughter ;-). I was definitely around during her terms in office, and I remember how she almost destroyed everything that her father built up.

Regards,
Ganesh Prasad

Posted by prasadgc | Report as abusive

Agreed not everyone is perfect. But when any of us compares ourselves with what chachaji did for the nation as a prime minister we all c ourselves as just selfish fools. Green revolution was one of the greatest achievements of Nehru and that foundation still FEEDS India. yes everyone makes mistakes and everyone does one thing or other for personal interests but that does not undermine positives of Nehru. If u say he was -100% and u are 100% then u live in a fool’s world.

As far as negatives go, Nehru made a few blunders: Dragging kashmir to UN, Allowing corruption under his nose, not having far-sightedness for population problem in india.

But we must be thankful for his positives alongside ramming him for his negatives.

Posted by 777xxx777 | Report as abusive

@KP
“That is Indian rupee is almost twice as strong as the Pakistani one. If a Pakistani navy officer gets twice the pay of the Indian one, from purchasing power stand point, they have the same parity. In Pakistan, from a relative pay scale stand point, working for the military might appear more lucrative. In India the reasons are different.”

Please read again what i said. The comparison is in absolute dollar terms. Meaning first u convert everything in dollar as per exchange rates of both countries respectively and then compare. In such a comparison the Pakistan military is better paid of than Indian countrparts. now u can judge the relative compensation that pak military gets makes it an extremely lucrative career in pakistan.

Posted by 777xxx777 | Report as abusive

@ Kashmiri Pundits

Well, i started my research today by simple google ‘Kashmiri pandit’ and it already looks interesting. One of the reason is I started my education overseas and later studied (Pakistan Studies) as a subject. Sorry my subcontinent history knowledge is far from good, and now working life is so fast paced I dont get time to sit down and study books. However interesting to learn that Nehru and Indra were Kashmiri pundit.
I think I am going to uncover something big here.
And it already seems Indra Gandhi, what she did to Pakistan in 1971 was partly motivated maybe because of history or persecution of Kashmiri pandits in Kashmir from historical perspective by muslim rulers.
I have always thought the roots of all problems between India and Pakistan is Kashmir dispute. It seems all smoking guns lead back to Kashmir not Rawalpindi.

However, if someone can please forward any books links, Youtube documentary on the issue, please do. Also i see conflicting opinions on Nehru, he might have been a controversial figure. But lucky he remained in office for so long, 1947-1960s. Unlike Jinnah who died soon after Pakistan came into being, had he the pooprtunity to govern Pakistan for atleast 10 years, maybe Pakistan must have been bit different today.

Posted by Umairpk | Report as abusive

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jawaharlal_ Nehru

“Keeping the Kashmir issue alive has ensured continued victory of congress party in India. Nehru’s daughter Indira Gandhi also displayed extreme arrogance while dealing with Kashmir issue and kept it alive for political gains.”

Thanks to Nehru and Indira Gandhi, Lashkar-e-Toiba thrives on the slogan of Jihad-E-Kashmir. Please correct me if I am getting it wrong.

Posted by Umairpk | Report as abusive

> Nehru made a few blunders: Dragging kashmir to UN

We have to remember the historical context here. The Second World War had just ended. Here was a new world organisation that promised to be fairer than the old League of Nations that Woodrow Wilson established after the First World War (in that it allowed even the defeated Axis nations to be members). Nehru was a self-avowed believer in international cooperation and in being a good global citizen. He would naturally take inter-country disputes to the UN in good faith.

We hail from a generation that has lost faith in the UN thanks to all the distortions we know have crept in. Nehru approached the UN when it was just established and was the world’s great white hope. I think I can understand his thinking.

Regards,
Ganesh Prasad

Posted by prasadgc | Report as abusive

@Umair
It is an open truth that politicians on both sides have kept kashmir issue burning for their personal gains. Congress (including Nehru, Indira and Rajiv) never did anything about kashmir in its 40 years of rule. BJP came to power and Vajpayee cooled down kashmir like anything. And today after 10 year rule of congress again we have curfew in kashmir. so it is evidently clear to people in india the game played by congess party in name of kashmir. Nothing new to us in this.

What we want to know from u is why the killing of kashmiri pandits in first place?? And why threatening of sikhs in kashmir today??

Posted by 777xxx777 | Report as abusive

777
It is shocking to me that both Nehru and Indra Gandhi were Kashmiri pandits, let me absorb that first and I’ll come back to threatening of sikhs and hindu pandits in kashmir later.
I never thought from the Indian perspective about this, but this gives me an insight of things from Indian POV. How Kashmir was left to become a festering wound, today it is foolishly proclaimed Pakistan Army is root cause of all trouble. No sir, those who let Kashmir become a festering problem are to be blamed.
Congratulations! As long as Kashmir dispute is there, no peace is possible. Kashmir costs us East Pakistan. Had Indra Gandhi not been Indian PM, history and geography would have been different.
And Nehru famously proclaimed that he backed UN plebscite in Kashmir and that he did not believe in forced marraiges.

“Kya hua tera wada, wo kasam wo irada??”
Oh kehne waale mujhko farebi
Kaun farebi hai yeh bata
Woh jisne gham liya pyaar ki khaatir
Ya jisne pyaar ko bech diya
Nasha daulat ka aisa bhi kya
Ke tujhe kuch bhi yaad nahin

While I don’t think there was any love between India and Pakistan, but certainly promises on Kashmir were broken.

Posted by Umairpk | Report as abusive

Umairpk, Seth, Ganesh Prasad, K.P.Singh:
Nehru’s Kashmir strategy was not just a blunder but it was a well thought out strategy to create a complex among muslims left in India . By creating kashmir bogey and its subsequent mention in UN , Nehru wanted Mulsims in India to make them feel responsible for the partition , if Jinnah is responsible for partition, nehru was equally responsible. Gandhi never wanted partition, he was wiling to make Jinnah prime minister of India , but it was Nehru and his cronies they sabotaged Gandhi’s move. My only point to all of you here is that if nehru was so serious about Kashmir, why no plebiscite was held even during his regime . Nehru was responsible for the foreign policy mess, which kept India from main stream international politics. India became crony of USSR.

Nehru was an idiot , and he had no capacity to think beyond women and alcohol. Today India-pakistan dispute over a piece of land, Indo-China dispute , Tibet issues are legacy of nehru , which we inherited from him. Nehru left a system which has made India world’s one of the most corrupt countries. Even common Wealth games are not immune from this. take the kashmir out from India-pakistan dispute, there is not major dispute between India and Pakistan .

Posted by manishindia | Report as abusive

In continuation to my earlier post, let me say to all that I have never said Nehru made a mistake by taking kashmir to UN, he made blunder when he failed in his commitment to international community . Secondly, Edwina was not his only love, but from time to time we hear news of nehru’s other alliances .

it is wrong to credit Nehru for credits for development, green revolution, Nehru does not deserve this, on the contrary scientists like M.S.Swaminathan , who left their well paid jobs abroad to work for the nation building. During Nehru’s regime , all the ordnance factories were converted to wither shoe making or fruniture making factories for the then breed of politicians and buearacrats . Immediately after partition, there was a very big debate among nehru and his cronies about occupation of plush bungalows in Lutyen’s Delhi left by British . Now in India, there is a big debate about the contribution of Nehru for the nation ?

Posted by manishindia | Report as abusive

Umairpk said:

> Unlike Jinnah who died soon after Pakistan came into being, had he the pooprtunity to govern Pakistan for atleast 10 years, maybe Pakistan must have been bit different today.

Looking at what some Indians have to say about Nehru, it seems to me that Jinnah died before he could become unpopular with Pakistanis!

Regards,
Ganesh Prasad

Posted by prasadgc | Report as abusive

Umairpk said:

> [...] today it is foolishly proclaimed Pakistan Army is root cause of all trouble. No sir, those who let Kashmir become a festering problem are to be blamed. Congratulations! As long as Kashmir dispute is there, no peace is possible.

Umair, I’m very disappointed in your comments. I keep trying to draw you back to thinking about solutions *from where we are today*. You continue to go back and dwell on the past.

Let me ask you one more time with a splash of cold water to your face, “How is Pakistan going to wrest Kashmir from India when Pakistan’s economy has suffered long-term damage from the floods (http://bit.ly/aRWThi, http://bit.ly/9f2HeX) and India is growing by almost 9% a year (http://bit.ly/bgTgQh)?”

Please try to understand. I am not speaking as an Indian crowing over a defeated Pakistan. I don’t think in terms of winners and losers. I think in terms of long-term solutions and a prosperous South Asia. But I find you are unable to see things this way.

Leave aside all issues of justice, injustice, history, blame, fault, victim, etc., etc. I’m asking you for a *realistic* solution, i.e., something that will work. You’re an intelligent person and you can extrapolate a graph. Your country is growing weaker than India with each passing year. The gap only keeps widening. What makes you think India will come to the negotiating table in five years’ time? Indian leaders will be so arrogant then they’ll tell Pakistan to take a hike.

You guys need to swallow a bitter pill and make the best of a bad situation. I used to think India had to let Kashmir (the territory) go. After reading your comments even after the severe blow that Pakistan has suffered, I have begun to think Pakistan must let Kashmir (the idea) go.

You understand the word ‘junoon’, don’t you? The Kashmir junoon (obsession) will destroy Pakistan. India doesn’t have to do a thing. The pity is that you can turn your fortunes around and become prosperous by just snapping your fingers. But you won’t see it, will you?

When the national electricity grid gives up and you sit shivering in the dark, keep thinking of Kashmir. The glow of rage will keep you warm.

(None of the above is meant as cruel sarcasm. It is frustration and sorrow that you cannot understand friendly words of advice from a well-wisher.)

Regards,
Ganesh Prasad

Posted by prasadgc | Report as abusive

@Ganesh Prasad,

Umair needs to grow up and mature and become his own man, he is not yet there with that long term wisdom, he is a madrassa child that cannot think outside his propaganda programmming.

Posted by G-W | Report as abusive

@Ganesh,

I have every faith that Army Punjabi’s will continue to fxxk up Pakistan in the wrong direction with their hatred at India. Live long and prosper.

Posted by G-W | Report as abusive

@Umair,

Despite Indira Gandhi’s various blunders & character flaws (being a sikh, I’m more than aware of them), you can not blame her for East Pakistan. The East Pakistan situation was largely a creation of your leaders & generals & Indira Gandhi did what any Indian would have done at that time. If anything, I blame her for waiting too long. Had India intervened earlier, many Bengali lives could have been saved. East Pakistan had nothing to do with Kashmir but the agitation that followed in Kashmir (in the 80′s) was largely motivated by East Pakistan, as Zia pledged to take revenge for East Pakistan & “bleed India with a thousand cuts”.

Posted by Mortal1 | Report as abusive

@”The Kashmir junoon (obsession) will destroy Pakistan.”

I would say, it pretty much has. Arguably, most of Pakistan’s problems (weak democracy, weak economy, radicalization, terrorism etc) can be linked to it’s Kashmir obsession, in one way or the other.

Posted by Mortal1 | Report as abusive

Guys,

I still think my idea is best. Both Pakistan and India completely vacate Kashmir, both Armies out, completely with UN and NATO military supervision AND get all kashmiri political parties sign-off to a commitment of non-militantism.

Let an independent political authority form from Kashmir and let them decide what THEY want for THEIR future, without any undo duress and strongarming from ISlamabad or Delhi.

Fxxk congress idiots, Fxxk Rawalpindi idiots, both of them can take a leap, let the Kashmiri’s decide what is best for them.

At the end of the day, I think Kashmiri’s on their own will choose a financially strong future with India, but Kashmiri’s must be allowed to make that choice of their own free will, if that is what they want.

Pakistan cannot interfere with the will of the Kashmiri’s to choose cultural and political autonomy under India, if they ask to be within the Indian Union.

Again, I think Kashmir will be solved the right way and India has the success, the patience, the reserves, the cash, the goodwill to make this all happen, especially given the crisis right now.

I don’t think Kashmiri’s, muslims or not, will want to join with Pakistan, being with muslims is not enough to fill the Kashmiri’s bellies at night, nor is it enough to fulfill their spirits and feel like complete human beings.

Kashmiri’s want more than what PoK Kashmiri’s are getting and they don’t want to join in Indian success.

India needs to pull its socks up, get its shxt straight and start to better address Kashmiri concerns and capitalize on the opportunities and apply full effort to address Kashmiri concerns and Pakistani ones too, UN and US must step up and show some moral backbone.

Kashmiri’s need to grow up a little, think and quit tossing bricks and drink some cold water. There will be a great reward for them, if they collectively educate, and put their hands out for a handshake, rather than put their hands up with a brick and lower themselves to being militant fodder, mentored by foreign hands and losing their identity and legitimacy of their own struggle in the process.

India needs to do a better job of making Kashmiri’s happy, that status quo is allowing Pakistan to capitalize on Kashmiri anger and militantizing it against India………..Congress party insiders…take note and fix this!

Posted by G-W | Report as abusive

typo:

“and they don’t want to join in Indian success.”

should read:

“and they DO want to join in Indian success.”

Posted by G-W | Report as abusive

G-W said:

> he is a madrassa child that cannot think outside his propaganda programmming.

No, Umair is a product not of madrassa indoctrination but army worship. He believes the men in uniform can do no wrong. He needs to open his eyes and see where the Pakistan Army’s Kashmir obsession is taking his country.

Regards,
Ganesh Prasad

Posted by prasadgc | Report as abusive

GW: “he is a madrassa child that cannot think outside his propaganda programmming.”
–I am a Madrassa educated. So what? you need to know that Madrassa have been running since centuries and were never an issue before. Wiser is to blame the Pakistan’s state/national education system (NOT MADRASSA) which is mainly the root cause of what I see you complaining.

Posted by rehmat | Report as abusive

Ganesh,

As someone who’s been interacting with Umair for quite sometime, I can tell you that his opinions & comments change, depending on which direction the wind is blowing from the Pakistani army’s HQ. Last year when the PA was reluctant to fight the Taliban, Umair did not consider them as terrorists & enemies but the minute the PA started fighting them, his stance changed. His current softer position on India is only because the PA has lowered it’s guard towards India & the minute they promote India to enemy #1 again, so will Umair. IMO, Umair is a good & seemingly educated person, who is simply incapable of thinking independantly from Pakistan’s military estabishment & convincing him to do otherwise, is an excercise in futility.

Posted by Mortal1 | Report as abusive

@”Wiser is to blame the Pakistan’s state/national education system (NOT MADRASSA) which is mainly the root cause of what I see you complaining.”
Posted by rehmat

I agree with that.

Posted by Mortal1 | Report as abusive

Ganesh: “The Second World War had just ended. Here was a new world organisation that promised to be fairer than the old League of Nations that Woodrow Wilson established after the First World War (in that it allowed even the defeated Axis nations to be members). Nehru was a self-avowed believer in international cooperation and in being a good global citizen. He would naturally take inter-country disputes to the UN in good faith.”

*****WWII meant a polarized world and no place for NAM, which again is Nehru’s failed expt. Nehru believed in UN alright. Then why did he say NO to not so-well known offer to India by the USA to be a permanent memeber of UNSC. He foolishly recommends China’s name for the seat, then steps on China;s tail by giving space to Dalai lama and add his forward policy invited 62war we got a guy who does not know know that there may never be a second opportunity to fix that. There is no point talking about the past but he made blunders as PM. He was not powerful enough to say NO to be PM, despite being FAR less popular than Patel. Patel would have died like Jinnah due to his old age and Nehru would still get the job.

Nehru’s positives include giving India a direction in the science and technology by early setting up of the core infrastructure. Those who do not give credit for develeopment should look at Pakistan as a control case. I am sure Pakistan also had some bright individuals but a dozen of bright individuals need a willing PM to achieve all that.

manishindia, “Nehru was an idiot , and he had no capacity to think beyond women and alcohol…”
*****I heard Nehru had homosexual inclinations too! I do not care. I have heard a lot about Indira Gandhi, MK Gandhi, Bill Clinton. I have no issues since I do not treat and expect a politician to be my God. All I need is they run the country efficiently. I agree with most of what you say except I do not agree with your conclusion that he was anti-India.
“Nehru left a system which has made India world’s one of the most corrupt countries”
****That is similar to Pakistan blaming cold war for all the ills.

Posted by rehmat | Report as abusive

manishindia, I know I earlier said I will not comment on this. “Khyaal hee to hai badal bhee sakta hai.” :-)

Posted by rehmat | Report as abusive

@Rehmat,

Madrassas unto themself are not bad, but the ones in Pakistan, specifically the ones in Punjab are not known for being apolitical, nor are they known for being unmilitant.

I apologize, but I did not mean insult to all madrasas, because not all madrasas preach anti-india and anti-islamic sentiment.

madrasas are rife with propaganda and corrupting the minds of many poor youth in Pakistan.

Posted by G-W | Report as abusive

“Nehru left a system which has made India world’s one of the most corrupt countries”

Nehru has a huge burden on his hands – a vast nation with diversity in every way, empty coffers, high degree of backwardness, illiteracy, a country not yet fully formed with many principalities and fedual systems in tact. In addition there were external forces pulling the country in all directions.

What Nehru had on his side was a bunch of selfless, dedicated and ethical politicians who had taken part in the freedom struggle with Gandhi’s leadership – Vallabhai Patel, Ambedkar, Rajagopalachari, Maulana Azad, Jayaprakash Narayan etc to name a few. These people were Gandhians to the core. They valued their country more than themselves. Vallabhai Patel could have led the country well too. But he stayed down due to Gandhi’s request to support Nehru. He did that until he died. Until 1965, this generation of politicians prevailed in India. Corruption was not rampant. Nehru did not face any threats to his hold on power. He was so popular across the nation that he could stand anywhere for election and win it. Once power base was assured, Nehru worked hard in setting up the foundations for building the nation. He wanted India to be at par with other developed nations in Science and Technology.

Socialistic model does work well for a poor nation. In all aspects, India was like a sick man just starting to recover. When doing so, it is important to be strict on diet and discipline. Once enough strength is built, then the man can consume more variety of food and start exerting his muscles. Until 1970, India was on a recuperating mode. Nehru did a fantastic job of guiding India through those years. He knew that wars would consume all resources and energy away from nation building. Instead, he wanted to build trust and friendship with neighbors, not take side with other countries and get the best from everything. He assumed that his feelings and belief would be reciprocated.

By 1970, India was ready for a capitalistic style economy and free market. But Indira Gandhi took charge. She spent her time consolidating her hold against the old guard from the previous generation. To do that she needed to reach down to the corrupt politicians. In that process, she made it an institution. Within five years she lost her mind and assumed that she could do anything she pleased. She was surrounded by a coterie of sychophants who controlled everything. They liked socialism because it kept the nation backward. Poverty, illiteracy, over population etc were turned into opportunities to keep power on hand. They controlled the air waves and media. They controlled the industry and ran it to the ground. When people began to feel dejected, conflicts were staged.

India underwent its dark years under Indira Gandhi and her sons. Corruption became an institution under her rule. I would not blame Nehru for the ills. We lacked a good leader when the time came in 1970. Someone like P Chidambaram or Arun Shourie would have done wonders as a PM at that time. But they were too young.

After 1991, India got back into the right track. What should have happened two decades earlier, finally happened in 1991. Now two decades later the results are showing. There is no use regretting those lost years. We have to make the most of what we have gained.

Pakistan lacked proper leadership right from the start. I wouldn’t rate Jinnah as a great administrator. His death simply removed a figurehead. And Pakistan unnecessarily volunteered itself to be a part of the cold war geo-politics in the 1950s. I guess its leaders saw India not making the move and decided to take up the chance. Little did they realize that the US and its CIA liked to have regimes that favored them and forced it on small countries. Iran, Pakistan, Iraq, Philippines, Congo and many countries had CIA sponsored coups and dictators. Pakistan was destroyed by the cold war geo-politics. It cheated itself into believing that participation in the geo-politics would give it the prime importance and stance in the world. We can see the legacy of that belief today. Nehru’s non-aligned approach has helped keep the powers at bay. He was cautious even of the Russians. It was Indira Gandhi who leaned on USSR more to protect herself from CIA. Nixon wanted her eliminated badly and the KGB covered for her.

Anyway, it is easy to blame Nehru. But India is still in tact and doing well because of him. No one can take away that credit from him. He was human after all. It is very hard to find such leaders now-a-days and expect them to survive.

Posted by KPSingh01 | Report as abusive

@Mortal:
“As someone who’s been interacting with Umair for quite sometime, I can tell you that his opinions & comments change, depending on which direction the wind is blowing from the Pakistani army’s HQ. Last year when the PA was reluctant to fight the Taliban, Umair did not consider them as terrorists & enemies but the minute the PA started fighting them, his stance changed. His current softer position on India is only because the PA has lowered it’s guard towards India & the minute they promote India to enemy #1 again, so will Umair.”

-I am not serving in Pakistan Military, but I can tell you there are almost monthly corps commanders conferences in GHQ, threats are analysed, security postures are defined. For first time now, internal militant threat posed by Pakistan has surpassed that of Indian threat as per ISI assessment. Against India a combination of conventional force posture along with nuclear detterent has shown on three occasions 1999 Kargil, 2001/02 border standoff and 2008 Mumbai attacks have kept india from any misadventure. But militants are now a real challenge and the fight against them is absolutely serious and deadly. So it is not a question of my opinion of India changing frequently, rather the geopolitical changing dynamics of the region define the course a nation/its people has to adopt.

@Ganesh
” I’m very disappointed in your comments. I keep trying to draw you back to thinking about solutions *from where we are today*. You continue to go back and dwell on the past.”
“Umair is a product not of madrassa indoctrination but army worship. He believes the men in uniform can do no wrong. He needs to open his eyes and see where the Pakistan Army’s Kashmir obsession is taking his country.”

-I understand the genuineness of your comments, and agree India and Pakistan must bury the past and move on. No doubt about it, regarding Kashmir Pakistan’s stand is based on principles. But the issue is so messed up, I dont even want to talk anymore about it. Even without Kashmir, Pakistan has a lot to worry about economy etc. it is understood. Though media may highlight the challenges faced by Pakistan in a way that looks as if this country will implode. I think Pakistan is fully capable of meeting the challenges, all that is required is good governance, massive economic reforms and the economy will rebound, energy production can be diversified and energy shortages overcome. No one is bickering about the past, atleast myself being a Pakistani living and working in Pakistan in these challenging times I am still hopeful of a bright future. But its not just hope, I live each day in practical way, no one is clinging on to false hopes. Without doubt the challenges are enormous and much is required from us. But a vibrant media, active civil society, independent judiciary and the middle class is starting to make the difference in Pakistan. Now politicians can’t induldge in corruption and get away with it. With Public scrutiny, Army is also more sensitive on national issues, and I reflect the public sentiments of Pakistan towards the Army, it being the most professional, capable and well organized/functioning institution in the country. However, civilian institution are also being empowered like the judiciary.
Regarding Army worship, Military men can’t go wrong etc. I have stated before that popular belief among Pak Army is that Army messed up in East Pakistan and India resultantly exploited the situation. PAKMIL is a disciplined institution and does a lot of critical thinking and self introspection/assessments etc. It follows doctrines and undertakes studies, devise long-term strategy. Yes, military men do get it wrong sometimes in Pakistan. But when time comes, they lay down their lives to protect Pakistan too. That is the difference, between Army and corrupt politicians in Pakistan. The politicians plunder and run away, the Army is still nationalistic atleast. This is something you guys don’t understand, and Army is now trying to build the capacity of civil government so it can take more responsibility. What else do we need? And why to criticize the Army all the time?

Posted by Umairpk | Report as abusive

G-W
Yes I am a product of Madrassa, I went to school in morning and to Madrassa in evening. In school I learnt science and math, in Madrassa I learnt Quran and why Allah created the universe. This is the reason I am a balanced Muslim, one who has faith, who has modern education as well as technological knowledge.
And in Pakistan, Madrassas provide biggest boarding-lodging to poor students. Many Madrassas in cities have evolved and use computers, they are registered with Ministry of religious affairs, have approved curriculum.
So come out of childish vision of Madrassa being a place where you are provided an AK-47 assault rifle and trained in bloodshed.

Posted by Umairpk | Report as abusive

Ganesh:
” “How is Pakistan going to wrest Kashmir from India when Pakistan’s economy has suffered long-term damage from the floods (http://bit.ly/aRWThi, http://bit.ly/9f2HeX) and India is growing by almost 9% a year (http://bit.ly/bgTgQh)?”

“The gap only keeps widening. What makes you think India will come to the negotiating table in five years’ time? Indian leaders will be so arrogant then they’ll tell Pakistan to take a hike.”

-I agree, Pakistan must seek a durable peace and resort to aggressive diplomacy. there is no military solution to Kashmir, and the solution has to be a political one. Once out of the way, Pakistan and India can think of improving the lives of their citizens fully. It will take some time, last time in 2007 a peace plan on Kashmir was almost near, but missed. Hopefully, next time we will reach the finishing line.

Posted by Umairpk | Report as abusive

Umairpk said:

> I agree, Pakistan must seek a durable peace and resort to aggressive diplomacy. there is no military solution to Kashmir, and the solution has to be a political one. Once out of the way, Pakistan and India can think of improving the lives of their citizens fully. It will take some time, last time in 2007 a peace plan on Kashmir was almost near, but missed. Hopefully, next time we will reach the finishing line.

Good, I am relieved we are thinking alike on this. I believe that the border must be stabilised first through formalisation of the LoC as the international border, and both countries must agree to respect each other’s territory from then on. There need not be any exchange of territory, because that will be impossible for either country to sell to the electorate in their respective countries. Better to formalise the reality on the ground and promise not to make any more claims on whatever territory the other has.

Once the deal is signed and successfully sold to domestic audiences (which means Pakistan also stops encouraging separatists in Indian-held Kashmir), the pressure reduces on India to maintain a heavy military presence in Kashmir. That will allow the common people to breathe more freely. Freed from the threat of militancy, the Kashmiri pundits can also return home. Investments can flow in, and Kashmiris can find employment and prosperity. Their major grievances, i.e., army oppression and lack of opportunities, will then be addressed. I think the Kashmiris also realise that full-fledged independence may not be viable for them. Azadi is more a cry against the heavyhanded rule they are subjected to. Later on, if independence is a real desire, the relaxed relations between India and Pakistan may make it a less stressful affair to negotiate.

On the India-Pakistan front, once the territorial dispute is settled, there is nothing to prevent an increasing amount of economic cooperation. All the other goodies we talk about will then follow, visa relaxation, free trade, cross-border investments, etc.

The first step is to get the agreement signed. I believe we are very close, but I don’t understand why it doesn’t happen.

Regards,
Ganesh Prasad

Posted by prasadgc | Report as abusive

GW,
No offense taken. We are all learning here.

People at the top need to clean up their act. Religion has been misused as a tool all over the world. It is the people at the top who do not even go to Madrassas who are root cause of maintaining this tool (Benazir Bhutto Admn established Taliban for example).

Posted by rehmat | Report as abusive

US needs Pak on their side for ending their Afghanistan misadventure – so pushing back on India makes sense for them. This is last chance for Pak to extract all they want from US including Kashmir before US troops leave Afghanistan. Once troops leave, Pak loses any leverage they had.

Pak as a country has generated tremendous amount of bad will in the west as seen in muted people response to floods. The best part is we Indians had nothing to do with this – Pakistan did this all on their own.

BTW, I think that the current situation in Kashmir arises mainly from their inability to participate in the growth of Indian economy – no opps in their state + limited ability to exit the state (even I would not rent a flat to a Kashmiri Muslim as I do not want any lafda/problem).

On India-Pak, the trust deficit is just too high – events like Kasab, David Headley etc do not endear our neighbours to us. So the very question of “visa relaxation, free trade, cross-border investments” does not arise. Frankly, I still think my wall idea is a great soln to our problems.

Let me clarify that while I support humanitarian aid, I do not support free trade or visa relaxations with Pak. I support the stricter norms that Indian govt imposes on people of Pak origin applying for visas from countries like US, UK and Canada.

Stay away from me and my country. Thats all I want.

Posted by nvrforgetmbai | Report as abusive

nvrforgetmbai said:

> Let me clarify that while I support humanitarian aid, I do not support free trade or visa relaxations with Pak.

Every 20 years, the world changes in unrecognisable ways.

Here is a longish excerpt from the first chapter of “The Next 100 Years – A Forecast for the 21st Century” by George Friedman of Stratfor (Doubleday 2009).

(Excerpt begins)

“Imagine that you were alive in the summer of 1900, living in London, then the capital of the world. Europe ruled the Eastern Hemisphere. There was hardly a place that, if not ruled directly, was not indirectly controlled from a European capital. Europe was at peace and enjoying unprecedented prosperity. Indeed, European interdependence due to trade and investment was so great that serious people were claiming that war had become impossible – and if not impossible, would end within weeks of beginning – because financial markets couldn’t withstand the strain. The future seemed fixed: a peaceful, prosperous Europe would rule the world.

Imagine yourself now in the summer of 1920. Europe had been torn apart by an agonizing war. The continent was in tatters. The Austro-Hungarian, Russian, German and Ottoman empires were gone and millions had died in a war that lasted for years. The war ended when an American army of a million men intervened – an army that came and then as quickly left. Communism dominated Russia, but it was not clear that it could survive. Countries that had been on the periphery of European power, like the United States and Japan, suddenly emerged as great powers. But one thing was certain – the peace treaty that had been imposed on Germany guaranteed that it would not soon reemerge.

Imagine the summer of 1940. Germany had not only reemerged but conquered France and dominated Europe. Communism had survived and the Soviet Union was now allied with Nazi Germany. Great Britain alone stood against Germany, and from the point of view of most reasonable people, the war was over. If there was not to be a thousand-year Reich, then certainly Europe’s fate had been decided for a century. Germany would dominate Europe and inherit its empire.

Imagine now the summer of 1960. Germany had been crushed in the war, defated less than five years later. Europe was occupied, split down the middle by the United States and the Soviet Union. The European empires were collapsing, and the United States and the Soviet Union were competing over who would be their heir. The United States had the Soviet Union surrounded and, with an overwhelming arsenal of nuclear weapons, could annihilate it in hours. The United States had emerged as the global superpower. It dominated all of the world’s oceans, and with its nuclear force could dictate terms to anyone in the world. Stalemate was the best the Soviets could hope for – unless the Soviets invaded Germany and conquered Europe. That was the war everyone was preparing for. And in the back of everyone’s mind, the Maoist Chinese, seen as fanatical, were the other danger.

Now imagine the summer of 1980. The United States had been defeated in a seven-year war – not by the Soviet Union but by communist North Vietnam. The nation was seen, and saw itself, as being in retreat. Expelled from Vietnam, it was then expelled from Iran as well, where the oil fields, which it no longer controlled, seemed about to fall into the hands of the Soviet Union. To contain the Soviet Union, the United States had formed an alliance with Maoist China – the American president and the Chinese chairman holding an amiable meeting in Beijing. Only this alliance seemed able to contain the powerful Soviet Union, which appeared to be surging.

Imagine now the summer of 2000. The Soviet Union had completely collapsed. China was still communist in name but had become capitalist in practice. NATO had advanced into Eastern Europe and even into the former Soviet Union. The world was prosperous and peaceful. Everyone knew that geopolitical considerations had become secondary to economic considerations, and the only problems were regional ones in basket cases like Haiti or Kosovo.”

(Excerpt ends)

The moral of the story is – Never say never :-).

Regards,
Ganesh Prasad

Posted by prasadgc | Report as abusive

While most Indians tend to be future focussed, for the large part Pakistanis are stuck in the past. Every few posts, we have the following dragged out 1) 1947- British should have handed India to us 2) 1971 Bangladesh independence 3) 1989 betrayal by US 4) 1991- we almost won Kargil 5) 2001 co-opted into war against terror. So on and on – constant stream of victimhood in which they have done nothing wrong and want everything including their flag on Delhi’s lal quila.

So while the history lesson is interesting, it will not work in this situation. Till, the govt and people of Pakistan look at the future they are creating for themselves and understand its horror, there will be no peace. This realization cannot be imposed from outside – it has to come from within. When civil society firmly puts itself against jihadi violence, then there will be peace.

Let me put it differently, if in 1940ies, u had told a UK/French citizen that one day he/she would be able to walk into Germany without passport just with ID proof, they would have laughed their heads off. Today it is true. But it happened because of an existential threat in form of USSR crushing the Western Europeans together.

Also for the last time, contrary to what most Pakistanis think India is not interested repeat “NOT INTERESTED” in taking over Pakistan. BJP/RSS have accepted that fact as have most Indians. Who would want to be saddled with a cesspool of terrorism? We have plenty of poor in our country why add 160 million more especially when they come with extremism free. No thank you. We would rather you stew in your own soup. India has absolutely no desire even in our wildest dream to reunite with Pakistan.

The fact that I support humanitarian aid itself sometimes feels traitorous to my country.

Posted by nvrforgetmbai | Report as abusive

Umairpk said:

> And in Pakistan, Madrassas provide biggest boarding-lodging to poor students. Many Madrassas in cities have evolved and use computers, they are registered with Ministry of religious affairs, have approved curriculum.
So come out of childish vision of Madrassa being a place where you are provided an AK-47 assault rifle and trained in bloodshed.

Thanks for that. It’s always good to get a different viewpoint from the stereotype.

Regards,
Ganesh Prasad

Posted by prasadgc | Report as abusive

nvrforgetmbai said:

> So while the history lesson is interesting, it will not work in this situation.

Something tells me that by 2020, you will have enjoyed a holiday in Swat. Cheaper than Switzerland, and you can manage there with the languages you already know :-).

Regards,
Ganesh Prasad

Posted by prasadgc | Report as abusive

Ganesh:
“All the other goodies we talk about will then follow, visa relaxation, free trade, cross-border investments, etc.”

Your basic assumption that we are all similar type of people with similar aspirations, desires and behaviors is flawed.

I suggest u look at http://statistics.dwp.gov.uk/asd/frs/200 7_08/frs_2007_08_report.pdf

This is a UK report on statistics about income, education, wealth etc between different ethnicities – they keep the Indian and Pak/Bangladeshi ethnicities seperate, thank god. Pls view Table 3.7 Households by ethnic group of head and total weekly household income; Table 4.4. http://www.poverty.org.uk/reports/ethnic ity.pdf

Similar stats on education also avbl. http://www.statistics.gov.uk/cci/nugget. asp?id=461

The difference is statistically significant (brings me back to good old engg days:)) or stark in non engineer lingo. We are not the same type of people.

We are different people – headed in different directions. When opportunities are avbl like they are to Indians settled in UK, we tend to focus on improving our and our children’s lives. That is what is important to us. Not so for the Pakistanis.

So to summarize
1) they have very different aspirations and behavior patterns than us.
2) better to stay away till Pak decides on how/what to do about their internal problems.
3) even if we resolve Kashmir problem, maintain healthy distrust.

Posted by nvrforgetmbai | Report as abusive

Ganesh

“The first step is to get the agreement signed. I believe we are very close, but I don’t understand why it doesn’t happen.”

-Ganesh, why it could not happen in 2007 is because of two reasons. President Musharraf’s political fortune turned at home, Indian government failed to take bold decisions due to domestic considerations. But today civil society in Pakistan is strong and in India (or expat Indians) people like you are a hope for peace in future. No doubt there would be a minroty calling for otherwise. but ultimately if the people unite no one can stop peace.

@nvrforgetmbai
Yes the aspirations of people of Pakistan are different, you think Pakistanis are stuck in past and backward. That only you Indians are the forward looking, futuristic people, that walls will protect you. Good luck! As I stated earlier no one is desperate in Pakistan to forge peace with India.
But ultimately, India being the bigger nation in South Asia such type of petty mentality and thinking will not make it a great nation.

Posted by Umairpk | Report as abusive

What are the aspirations of the Pakistani people?
Other than the perpetual finger pointing and history – 1947/71/89/91 etc.

Please put down 2-3 of ur main main aspirations for the nation.

Do u want to a respected nation, a militarily strong nation, a rich nation? What do u want to be?

Posted by nvrforgetmbai | Report as abusive

Making personal attacks on me is fine but do u have any logical explanation of the differences between the diff communities in the UK?
And the emphasis on the word LOGICAL.

Posted by nvrforgetmbai | Report as abusive

Umairpk said:

> Yes, military men do get it wrong sometimes in Pakistan. But when time comes, they lay down their lives to protect Pakistan too. That is the difference, between Army and corrupt politicians in Pakistan. The politicians plunder and run away, the Army is still nationalistic atleast. This is something you guys don’t understand

Well, Indian armymen also lay down their lives fighting for the country, and they are definitely respected and honoured. But they don’t seem to have the demigod status that their counterparts have in Pakistan. I guess one has to grow up in a certain society to understand its culture and values…

Regards,
Ganesh Prasad

Posted by prasadgc | Report as abusive

Umair:
As I stated earlier no one is desperate in Pakistan to forge peace with India.

If u are not u should be. Before the US exits from Afghanistan next year is the last time window u guys have to extract/blackmail whatever u want from the Indian perspective. Once they leave, all leverage on India is gone. So start talking now.

From the western perspective,
1) as Gordon brown said 3/4th of all planned terrorist attacks in UK have roots in Pakistan.
2) add to that brew, the leverage of a growing Indian economy, and u have David Cameron type remarks that pakistan is exporting terror.

the only white knight u have is China. but they are fundamentally an economic animal. Increase in trade with india which is flourishing BTW at 32 bn$ as against $14bn with Pak.

And finally, if u are not worried now about ur country, then there is no hope for u or ur country. none.

As for brave Pakistani soldiers, the Pak army has ruled Pak for 1/2 of their existence. Clearly, they have done a very good job.

Posted by nvrforgetmbai | Report as abusive

Umair, Prasad

If the tables were turned and India was in Pakistan’s position, Pakistan would have used its full might to destroy India ten times over and converted most of Indians to Islam through the sword.

The fact of the matter is, India is not the beggar nation nation here, nor is it aggressive towards Pakistan, therefore Indians are not really required to bow or submit to anything Pakistani’s want….but for the sake of goodwill and peace, we are still always extending an olive branch to offer peace, but you Pakistani’s fail to realize one thing…beggars can’t be choosers.

Pakistani’s are going to realize soon that their options are so narrow and so limited, that the more right wing elements in India will want to capitalize on Pakistani weaknesses, through non military means.

Pakistani’s can stop this, while the U.S. is still here and start to discuss peace and start to honestly resolve all issues.

Once the U.S. leaves, it will most likely be hardball again between India and Pakistan. But this time, Pakistan is far weaker than when 911 happened and the U.S. subsequently arrived.

Also, Kashmir is finished for Pakistani’s. You cannot even govern your own country and now with the flood, you are set 20 years back even more than before, probably not much further along than 20 years after partition.

The bargaining time for kashmir is gone for Pakistan, as Pakistan is on the start of the slippery slope.

Kashmir will be the least of Pakistan’s worries.

Despite all that, India will still always be ready to talk and fix things, even though we don’t really have to, but choose to.

Posted by G-W | Report as abusive

nvrforgetmbai,

I do not agree with your hypothesis about Indians & Pakistanis being different people based on income levels in th UK. At the end of the day people of all races, ethnicities & nationalities have the same aspirations. The difference (between Indians & Pakistanis) that you point out in the UK study, is mainly due to the level of education in the households. Kids, whose parents are educated and/or lay emphasis on education, will always come on top, regradless of their ethnicity. I know some highly educated Pakistanis in the US & their households resemble that of any educated Indian, while the households of a Pakistani cab driver will resmble that of an Indian cab driver. The disparity which you see in the UK study is mainly because a majority of Pakistanis who go to the UK, US, Canda etc. are not very educated to begin with & once they land in those countries, they get stuck doing low income blue collared jobs & don’t get a chance to educate themselves & improve their ecconomic status. Most Indians on the other hand, who land in the US, UK etc., either already have their engineering or business degrees or get educated in those countries, land good jobs & hence have a great chance of ending in the upper income strata. The difference can also be attributed to the fact that, while Indians have access to some world class education in their home country (IITs, IIMs etc), Pakistanis don’t. So, while a degree from the IIT or IIM has good value in foreign countries, a degree from a Pakistani college (generally speaking), has little or no value at all.

Posted by Mortal1 | Report as abusive

@”As I stated earlier no one is desperate in Pakistan to forge peace with India” Posted by Umairpk

By saying that, you’re actually playing right into India’s hand by carrying on with the zero-sum game, which has gotten your country where it is today. Keep the enemity with India alive & continue to spend valuable resources on defense & weapons, bury the enemity with India & spend those resources on building your ecconomy, education etc. The choice is yours.

Posted by Mortal1 | Report as abusive

@”Something tells me that by 2020, you will have enjoyed a holiday in Swat. Cheaper than Switzerland, and you can manage there with the languages you already know”
Posted by prasadgc

Let’s start enjoying holidays in Kashmir before we start dreaming about Swat :)

Posted by Mortal1 | Report as abusive

@nvrforgetmbai
“What are the aspirations of the Pakistani people?

Please put down 2-3 of ur main main aspirations for the nation.

Do u want to a respected nation, a militarily strong nation, a rich nation? What do u want to be?”

-1.We, the people of Pakistan are 180 million strong Muslim nation, and only nuclear power in the Muslim world.

2. We strive to live with honour and dignity, in pursuit of good life and practice our lives according to our religion Islam in our independent soverign homeland.

3. We along with Saudi Arabia, Turkey, Malaysia, Egypt etc are the main players in the Muslim world (Group of 57 Islamic-OIC Nations) ref:1974 Islamic conf. Lahore

4. We want a stable, prosperous Pakistan in peace within and with its immediate neighbours. A strong economy, and we believe in democratic values. A leader in the Islamic world, and a respectable nation in entire world.

“If u are not u should be. Before the US exits from Afghanistan next year is the last time window u guys have to extract/blackmail whatever u want from the Indian perspective. Once they leave, all leverage on India is gone. So start talking now. ”

-Pakistan is a country which is of paramount strategic importance to the US, Pakistan is MNNA(Major Non NATO US Ally) and US-Pakistan strategic dialogue has opened up on all fronts including talk of civil nuclear deal similar to India’s. At best, the US is leaving the Afghan war theater and will outsource the war to Pakistan. Pakistan Army has already started training Afghan Army. Pakistan is poised to play a regional leadership role, and stop looking at US-PAK-IND axis this way. US has a US-PAK relationship, and a US-INDIA relationship which is based on its own merits. In simpler words, US-Pak relations will not impact US-India relations. So no one is pushing any panic buttons anytime soon, everyone should sit tight.

As with David Cameroon, he is new to politics/PM office. He would say one thing in Turkey and another thing in Greece to please one party. His statements on visit to Palestine would be against Israel, and while in Israel he would criticize Palestine. At best his erratic behavior is such that no one gives a sh*t about it in Pakistan. 2/3rds of terror plots might lead to Pakistan, but Pakistan also happens to be the front-line state in the war against terror. And the British lads know it.
Lets not foget the Jihadi factories that (allegedly) export terror were setup by CIA back in 80s. (Sorry to get back to 80s again):)And the Yanks know it damn well too.

As with brave Pak Army ruling Pakistan for half of its existence, that is half truth. Fact is it still has defacto control over Pakistan’s Defense and foreign policy. Do you want to mess with the world’s 7th largest nuclear equipped Army?

Posted by Umairpk | Report as abusive

Ganesh,

Thanks for your conciliatory approach. That is needed on both sides.

Still India needs to do more. The political parties are missing a hallmark opportunity to shine like Pakistan’s night in armour. India should not miss this opportunity to make a lasting style statement and just how much we are willing to do.

The indians should give give and give more, until the Pakistani’s can’t have any where to put the aid.

The response has not been strong enough. I have given twice and always tell my friends and family to give. Pass it on.

Posted by G-W | Report as abusive

nvrforgetmbai
BTW China has been given full access to Gilgit-Baltistan to expand Karakoram Highway and pave the route to link its Province all the way south to the strategic Pakistani Naval port of Gwadar, trucking supplies from China to Indian ocean port will be a matter of 48 hours. Secret tunnels are being dug to facilitate China’s gas pipeline projects.
Had India been a sincere friend after independence, we would have said Pak-Bharat dosti zindabad instead of ‘Pak-Chin dosti zindabad’. Why China? Why it could not have been India? Can it change now?

Posted by Umairpk | Report as abusive

G-W

“The fact of the matter is, India is not the beggar nation nation here, nor is it aggressive towards Pakistan, therefore Indians are not really required to bow or submit to anything Pakistani’s want….but for the sake of goodwill and peace, we are still always extending an olive branch to offer peace, but you Pakistani’s fail to realize one thing…beggars can’t be choosers.”

-Shame on you, after you donated $100 for flood you call us a beggar nation, I take offense. I have slightly less than $500 balance in my Barclays account and could send you an ACH wire transfer refund. Please dont hesitate to forward me your bank details, I could provide you my personal email for that.
We don’t need your olive branch, we will make you come to us and ask for friendhip instead. We are badly shaken, but we tend to get back to our feet very quickly. We might be looking weak, but when we unite we become undefeated. Kashmir runs in our blood as ever before. And lastly, get your skull scanned, I dont think there is a brain inside.

Posted by Umairpk | Report as abusive

@”BTW China has been given full access to Gilgit-Baltistan to expand Karakoram Highway and pave the route to link its Province…..” Posted by Umairpk

Since you are punjabi, you must be familiar with the expression ‘bund vich vadna’ (creep into someone’s a$$). That’s exactly what Pakistan has been doing with China for a long time. One of these days, China will let out a humongous fart, blow Pakistan out of the water & hang it out to dry.
(excuse my crudity but that was the best way to put it)

Posted by Mortal1 | Report as abusive

Guys, don’t go back to mudslinging, please. It’s hard to build a civil atmosphere but extremely easy to destroy it.

We don’t have to shy away from confrontational topics just to be “nice”, but we can try and raise them in a non-offensive way.

Regards,
Ganesh Prasad

Posted by prasadgc | Report as abusive

I am really surprised how easy it is to make a pakistani behave on emotional lines. The kind of obsession they have with nukes, army, china, kashmir, islam….and none of it has given them any prosperity but still pakistanis are crazy about all of them. So strange. Guess thats y politicians in pakistan are able to fool their public so easily.

We in india are obsessed only and only with prosperity and rest all are just tools to achieve the ultimate goal. I have a few muslim friends here in india but they are not so obsessed with islam or kashmir or bloody nukes; all they are concerned about is poverty and corruption and its hindrance to growth of the nation and individual thereof. Yes there are radical elements in india as well but only a minor few and indian security and defence agencies are upgrading themselves to deal with them.

Obsessions with weapons is very dangerous one especially if they are nukes, guess thats why general thinking in world about pakistan is of an irresponsible state (administration actually it should be). This obsession is taking pakistan down the wrong line and people like Umair should wake up from their dreams and c the reality. Nukes wont give u prosperity.

Posted by 777xxx777 | Report as abusive

The major problem in South Asia is contempt and arrogance shown by various groups against others. And this contempt is very serious. So long as others play their part, everyone is fine. But if those who are looked down upon rise, it is very difficult for those with superiority complex to accept it and they try to force the lesser people back.

Wealthy Muslims in India could not accept the idea of living below non-Muslims, after “having ruled them over a thousand years.” So they fought and got Pakistan. And they could maintain that contempt and superiority feeling by treating India as an inferior nation that could be pushed around. They did not realize that the country they got was a much smaller one in all aspects. Pakistan is the only country that has tried to achieve parity with India and in the bargain drained itself of all resources. They cannot swallow a defeat to India. They can take defeat from anyone else. But India causes their blood to boil. This emotion arises entirely from superiority complex and utter contempt. And it has been used as the binding force to keep the country united. The complex is so ingrained that even taking aid from India is considered unworthy. The only way Pakistan and India can reconcile with each other is when this contempt disappears. Pakistan always wants to dictate terms to India and expects India to play its inferior role – Get out of Afghanistan, Get out of Kashmir, Do not try to achieve parity with China and so on. This is why no resolution has come about. There are enough people in Pakistan who simply cannot swallow India emerging as a stronger nation in all aspects. They console themselves by pointing at Indian poverty, backwardness, Maoism, fake democracy etc. I see these words repeated many times in a variety of forums by Pakistanis. They are neck deep in trouble. Yet they want to sustain their superiority complex. Suicide bombings have resumed as the flood waters recede. This is because this is Pakistan’s most vulnerable moment. There is no money or resources to recover fast. And the “elements” have begun to erode from within. If Pakistanis do not look up to India as a friendly nation and accept the reality that India is not inferior to their nation, Pakistan can be helped in recovering fast. We still have a lot of compassion for the suffering people in Pakistan. It is compassion that needs to spread across the borders. Hope wisdom prevails.

Posted by KPSingh01 | Report as abusive

Umair,

You (& Pakistanis in general) seem to have some grave misconceptions, which I’d like to clear.

#1. You think that becoming a nuclear state is some kind of a great & honourable achievement.
The world doesen’t look at it that way. Nuclear status, if anything, is looked upon as a burden & a blot on the countries that possess it (not just on Pakistan but India, China & others as well).
Bottom-line: Nuclear status is not something to flaunt or pass off as a great achievement because it’s anything but.

#2. You think that you are a major player in the muslim world.
The muslim world doesen’t look at it that way. In order to be a major player in the muslim world or any world, you need to have a good economy, natural resources and/or a pool of literate working class & Pakistan doesen’t have any of those at this time. I have many aquaintainces from middle eastern & pacific muslim countries & I can tell you that they don’t look at you much differently than the rest of the world, as a menace & a trouble-maker.
Bottom-line: Build your economy, educate your people & become a moderate country and you can become a well respected major player, not just in the muslim world but in the whole world.

#3. You think of China as your knight in shining armour, who will rescue you from current & future turmoil.
China doesen’t look at it that way. If China did not come to your rescue in the 1965, 1999 or even 1971 war (when you were broken into 2), what makes you think that it will do so in the future? The reality is that China is simply using you to sell it’s obsolete weapons & products and is growing wary of this one-sided love affair with each passing day. It has also started to look at you through a different lens & if recent actions are an indication, it is trying to distance itself from Pakistan.
Bottom-line: When the time comes, China will dump you before you can blink.

Posted by Mortal1 | Report as abusive

And excerpt from a Dawn article:

“The self-appointed guardians of the national interest have been so keen on saving this place from external enemies, real and imagined, that they seem to have forgotten you can wither away from within, too. Eventually, you’re just an angry shell, prancing, preening, defiant at every turn, but ravaged from the inside, a weakness apparent to everyone but yourself.

Get lost, India, we won’t take your pity money, they say, while remonstrating with the rest of the world for not doing enough for flood victims. As if taking five million or 20 million or even a billion dollars from India would change anything, here or there. But no, we can’t give them a PR opportunity to make us look bad. Handouts from the enemy? Never. We’d rather let a few thousand peasants suffer. At least they’ll have their honour and dignity, their sovereignty.”

Posted by Mortal1 | Report as abusive

Uamir said:

“G-W

“The fact of the matter is, India is not the beggar nation nation here, nor is it aggressive towards Pakistan, therefore Indians are not really required to bow or submit to anything Pakistani’s want….but for the sake of goodwill and peace, we are still always extending an olive branch to offer peace, but you Pakistani’s fail to realize one thing…beggars can’t be choosers.”

-Shame on you, after you donated $100 for flood you call us a beggar nation, I take offense. I have slightly less than $500 balance in my Barclays account and could send you an ACH wire transfer refund. Please dont hesitate to forward me your bank details, I could provide you my personal email for that.
We don’t need your olive branch, we will make you come to us and ask for friendhip instead. We are badly shaken, but we tend to get back to our feet very quickly. We might be looking weak, but when we unite we become undefeated. Kashmir runs in our blood as ever before. And lastly, get your skull scanned, I dont think there is a brain inside.”

–> Let me make the distinction here for you, I am not calling the flood victims or the people of Pakistan the beggars, specifically, the corrupt military and corrupt government and the fattened Punjabi Fauji,s THEY ARE the beggars.

I still have great respect for a poor person in Pakistan who works hard to feed their family by selling samosas or other services daily on the street, but the real beggars are at the top of Pakistani politics and Pak Military. Those are the fat beggars I keep harping about, not the poor victimized citizens of Pakistan.

I hope I clarified things for you, so you do not remain offended. I probably should have clarified things to prevent misunderstanding, I apologize.

Posted by G-W | Report as abusive

KPSingh:”They did not realize that the country they got was a much smaller one in all aspects. ”
“Pakistan is the only country that has tried to achieve parity with India and in the bargain drained itself of all resources. They cannot swallow a defeat to India. They can take defeat from anyone else. But India causes their blood to boil. This emotion arises entirely from superiority complex and utter contempt. And it has been used as the binding force to keep the country united. The complex is so ingrained that even taking aid from India is considered unworthy. ”

-I would like to challenge your above statements, a country’s greatness is not measured by its geographic size. For example US is a big country and manufacturer of Boeing commercial planes. France and UK are much smaller but manufactur Airbus planes and all these nations transformed the aviation inducstry. Pakistan might be smaller in geographic size, this is not a reason for me not be proud of Pakistan. Your statement that Pakistan is “Smaller in all aspects” is utter foolishness.
Coming to parity with India, superiority complex etc. Let me tell you a healthy competition is a natural phenomenon. In this day, both Pakistan and India are equal in power and this balance has ensured there is no war between the two and now we can talk peace and move on. Fight only break out when one bully threatens weaker party, when the bully knows he will have a bloody noose he doesn’t pick up a fight.
Not taking aid from India is precisley because of G-Ws statement that Pakistan is a beggar nation. Even US suffered Katrina Hurricane and suffered its aftermath. Today there is earthquake in New Zealand. My point is you guys call Pakistan a beggar nation because we accepted the offer of $5 million humanitarian assistance. So probably its a good idea to reject that money to tell you we are a dignified and honourable people who will not compromise on their soverignty.

Regarding the poor suffering in Pakistan, these damn Pak politicians and liberals who now want money from India. These shameless people did not speak up in favour of those poor before floods. Had there been a corruption free good governance in place, Pakistan would have the cushion to sustain the losses and provide for the poor in these floods.

Posted by Umairpk | Report as abusive

Umair,

Please don’t become too grief stricken and emotional. Yes Pakistani’s are tough. But you have to put your defiance aside, it is destructive and will prolong pain and suffering.

Sometimes god works through others, even if they are non-muslim. If one offers an olive branch or a favor, it should not be regected for fear of giving up one’s ego and appearing weak.

It is true strength to admit weakness and even greater strength submit to peace and friendship and take graciously, when in need.

The poor are suffering so horribly in Pakistan, I have seen the images of women and children, the makeshift tents. May god/ allah protect all of them.

But in a time of suffering, this is not a time of defiance. This should be a time to openess and lightening the load within and making your one’s soul more gentle and willing to take a helping hand.

It is a time for both India and Pakistan to heal each other. It heals Indians too, if we help you and it helps to heal you too, if we help you. But your defiance will prolong the suffering and this defiance is selfish and does not represent the needs of the many.

I did not say that India should snatch Kashmir, I merely said that it is a good time for India to help and Pakistan to take it and both sit down in good faith.

Kashmir may run in Pakistani’s blood, that is fine, but take note of this, Pakistan does not run through the blood of Kashmiri’s, they have their own destiny at a time of their own choosing and own free will.

That is why if Pakistan and India soften towards each other, both vacate Kashmir, and let them decide what they want to do with their own land. I am sure immmediately, they want neither India nor Pakistan to be on their land.

Has the point I have been trying to make gotten through yet? You are very emotional these days and it is normal, given your love for your country, you are very patriotic and you have every right to be. But it is not unpatriotic to think of what is good, at the end of the day for ALL Pakistani’s an ALL Kashmiri’s. Male bravado ego, will not fill anybody’s belly at night, nor will it fill their spirits. These Kashmiri’s want autonomy or self-determination, free from BOTH Pakistan AND India, they are tired of being stuck in the middle.

So again, Kashmir being in your blood is fine, just do not continue to delude yourself into thinking that Pakistan is in Kashmiri’s blood too, that is not the case, they just want to be left alone.

Posted by G-W | Report as abusive

Umair,

You are confusing aid with begging. Please don’t take out of context or misconstrue what I am saying.

You assertion of the term begger and associating with $5million dollar aid is false.

The fact of the matter is that your civilian governemnt did not want to weaken its position politically, taking aid from the enemy, as much of the votership and public is anti-India and they did not want to risk angering elements that hate India and risk political backlash, so that is fine. At the end of the day, those flood victims need help.

I will clarify again, your State Institutions and corrupt leaders are the beggars, fattened at the expense of the poor, their lost potential, is the fat belly gained by the elite, they have eaten up everything all along and the poor are suffering as a result, that is undeniable. All of those F-15 jets and proliferated militantism did nothing to help Pakistan or its people at the end of the day.

There fore, this course of action MUST end. Your Faujis’s must step aside and start caring for the people first and put their male bravado egos aside. Not just during the floods, but long term thereafter too.

India never ever started aggression or war against Pakistani’s, before 1971, not once did India aggress Pakistan, it was always Your leaders that brought war on us, but still we are guilty and your leaders and your country is continually excused and never has to accept responsibility for anything and this always feels unfair from you and other Pakistani’s.

How can we make you understand the truth, with you calling us arrogant? How can we say anything that is true without you getting proud and saying that we are on our high horse? Tell us how to say it, tell us how to ask with out offending your ego’s. We have run out of options on how to reach you, as you continue to clench your fist. We still have the patience and will keep trying to reach you, even though you are not willing to give a rupee, dollar or paise for peace, you would rather maintain enmity and hatred as the status quo than do the truly brave thing and give real peace a chance.

If you choose to further misconstrue what I have said, then I cannot help you an further, you may be in need of professional psychological help.

You maybe too emotional right now to think logically about what I am saying, so I will not take things the wrong way. I hope you feel a sense of peace in the coming days and weeks.

Time time for pride and ego is far past due. Peace will happen and will be there for Indians, Kashmiri’s and all Pakistani’s. The people will demand it, it is inevitable.

Posted by G-W | Report as abusive

@”KPSingh:”They did not realize that the country they got was a much smaller one in all aspects. ”
“Pakistan is the only country that has tried to achieve parity with India and in the bargain drained itself of all resources”
“Umairpk: I would like to challenge your above statements, a country’s greatness is not measured by its geographic size. For example US is a big country and manufacturer of Boeing commercial planes. France and UK are much smaller but manufactur Airbus planes and all these nations transformed the aviation inducstry.”

Umair, I don’t think KP was reffering to Pakistan competing with India ecconomically, he was reffering to Pakistan competing with India, militarily & in the process draining it’s resources. Smaller countries have lesser resources than larger ones & competing with bigger countries, militarily, would ultimately bankrupt them. If UK or France were to compete with the US, millitarily, they would also drain their resources & be bankrupt. It’s a zero-sum game which smaller countries can’t win & indulging in it, would be suicidal. As for, Pakistan competing with India ecconomically & in areas of science, technology etc, I think Indians (& the world) would welcome that day as it would mean that Pakistan has transformed itself into a progressive, stable & civilized nation.

Posted by Mortal1 | Report as abusive

I think KP Singh, Mortal and G-W have written some of their finest pieces in the last few posts.

I must agree with KP on the superiority complex. I too have come across many Pakistani blogs and blog comments where references were made to “ugly, dark Hindoos”, so I believe there is some real racial prejudice in Pakistan with regard to India. Aatish Taseer’s book “Stranger to History” makes the same point (http://bit.ly/3GpH6a). It may well be a mixture of racial and religious superiority :-(. I don’t know how prevalent this attitude is in Pakistan, but it would be a good topic to address. Americans have finally elected a coloured president, and the age of racism should now be well and truly over. All humans are equal, have equal rights and deserve equal opportunities. It would be good for all of us to start from that point. If this principle is hard for someone to accept, perhaps that is the problem.

G-W’s point about beggars should also be well taken. Obviously, there is no contempt intended against the poor and suffering people. It’s the attitude of the controlling elites who have nothing to help their people with, yet are unwilling to acknowledge Indian goodwill (which is what the reluctance to accept Indian aid amounts to). This is very similar to Stalin’s refusal to accept US aid under the Marshall Plan. False national pride is more important than the suffering of one’s own people. What a selfish thought!

This is what is meant by the comment “beggars cannot be choosers.” It is not a reflection on the Pakistani nation or Pakistani people, merely the anti-India decision makers. Dare I say the Pakistan Army??

Mortal’s 3 points are also very valid. As an exercise, Pakistanis should try and see how the rest of the world really views them, not how they think they are viewed or how they view themselves. It may come as a bit of a shock. If it’s any consolation, “enemy” India may turn out to be much more sympathetic than expected.

Lastly, I think it is obvious that Indians here are empathetic to the feelings of Pakistanis like Umair even when they are lashing out in anger. This is another good opportunity to build bridges. If the Indians can be sensitive at such a time and avoid creating an impression of triumphalism, we may make an important breakthrough in building better relations. To us, Pakistan is an important country which is in some trouble now. If Pakistanis can see that we are not interested in exploiting this situation to destroy them and are not even taking pleasure from it but are instead trying to help them emerge as a prosperous and friendly neighbour, that will be a great achievement.

Regards,
Ganesh Prasad

Posted by prasadgc | Report as abusive

Umairpk said: “Regarding the poor suffering in Pakistan, these damn Pak politicians and liberals who now want money from India. These shameless people did not speak up in favour of those poor before floods. Had there been a corruption free good governance in place, Pakistan would have the cushion to sustain the losses and provide for the poor in these floods.”

@also your emphasis on Army vs civil govt, in current crisis.
***Umair, no where there is a corruption free govt. so do no worry about that.

I do not know how to express myself. I am worried about the youth in Pakistan like you who love their countries so much and are ready to do anything for it but they fail to see that their approach is wrong. Solving a problem requires that problem must be diagnosed. You have been misdiagnosing the problem (at least in part). your solutions are no different than what has been going in past 60yrs. Army, war, nukes, victimhood. confrontation keywords are what I see in your posts and they are of no use and worse tell the mentality and even worse shows no hope.

You need to remember few things that all nations love their soldiers and are as proud of them as you are. Secondly, Defense is just one department of govt, others being postal Dept, electricity Dept. They are all part of Pakistan. I see that you start comparing civilian leaders versus Army generals and what they did for floods (just an example). This has fundamental problem since conclusions which you draw are something like “Army did great, corrupt civilian leaders did not do their job” in the current crisis. While I can understand the deficiencies of the gov, in any crisis, Army at any place in with world is asked to step in during such crisis. So it is not about civil vs Army. In a democracy, civilians leaders ask the Army to do certain job. That either does not happen in Pakistan or you are not giving due credit to the civilian govt.

I heard the other day this guy named Ali Sayeedi (??) who is part of Pakistan youth council, talking on crisis management. He is educated, young, at the forefront (along with other young guys) to deliver aid to the camps. He knows what is going on and I heard him complain about govt as well as Army general who is in charge of the disaster management. I would say some of these problems are inevitable due to the magnitude of the crisis but I heard him complain a lot about the generals who are not coordinating the relief efforts (duplicate supplies to one place is one such issue he mentioned). Then he also talks about politicians (corrupt as you say) directing relief to certain areas of their interest, forcing Ali to supply aid at particular place which this guys denies and he is ambushed and his aid relief truck is looted allegedly by certain politicians men.

My point is Ali is complaining both about politicians and Army. It is needless to say that in both cases there are good guys, perhaps a bit more in Army.

Start thinking of Army as one (VITAL) arm of Pakistan.

Posted by rehmat | Report as abusive

Ganesh,

I haven’t had a chance to read Aatish Taseer’s book yet (I intend to) but I ran into him at a private event in London a couple of years ago & he’s quite impressive. Although he’s retained his father’s (Salman Taseer) last name, if I’m not mistaken, he’s a practising sikh.

Posted by Mortal1 | Report as abusive

Umair,

Adding on to Rehmat’s point above, you are quick to point fingers at your civilian govt & politicians (& for good reason) but tell me, what good did your military rulers do for your country when they were in power? Was Pakistan any better under Zia or Musharraf than it was under Benezir or Sharif? The truth is that the men in uniform were/are just as corrupt & greedy as the civilians. In fact, while the civilians were just corrupt, the generals, with their self-destructive policies, put your country on a path to radicalization, bankruptcy & implosion. The current state of your nation, can be largely attributed to your military rulers & not civilian ones.

Posted by Mortal1 | Report as abusive

Dear friends
I have few points to make. I understand your comments are genuine and share your concerns. I will start with;
@GW
I have always been passionate about Pakistan, as far as these days are concerned the weather in Islamabad is really beautiful with rain every second day. Atleast the drive to and from work is a pleasure after the hot summer months. We just had two bomb attacks in Lahore and Quetta yesterday and day before, an upsurge after a month or so being quite. Certainly the floods is a great crisis but we will get out of it. Yesterday while going to work I saw an accident and people were trying to help, I called the Rescue 1122 service and the operator told me they are dispatching medics in 10 minutes. Day before yesterday while drving back from work I saw fire trucks in city center responding to a fire and rescue services doing their job. I see policemen on checkpoints staying put in hot summer and rain doing their job. These are our heroes, they are here, policemen, rescue workers, firefighters, soldiers sailors and airmen rescuing and relieving flood victims. In government/bureaucracy and other civil institutions as well as judges/lawyers and civil societ/media we have many heroes again, honest and patriotic. No need for me to get into details about their good work. This makes me proud, enough to let you know I am very pleased to be where I am. While your consolation is welcome and appreciated, certainly I dont need any psychological help, rather you must compare your current statement with what you stated before. You say corrupt Pak politicians and Generals are beggars and are to be blamed for. I agree, people of Pakistan know politicians are corrupt and Generals are not angels. Don’t you know President Musarraf was a General but he resigned in August 2008 because people hated him and wanted him to go? This is democracy, where civil government and military is coordinating everything together. Statements like ‘Pakistanis are beggars, Pakistan is a failed state’ are just childish and foolish.

@Ganesh
” I too have come across many Pakistani blogs and blog comments where references were made to “ugly, dark Hindoos”
-I agree Ganesh, just as Pakistan is not a failed state and Pakistanis are not beggars, similarly hindus are not ugly or dark. And I am saying that from experience, I lived and worked with them overseas and they could be as wonderful friends. Normally these type of ugly insults are hurled at each other on You Tube videos often on a cricket video or some Indo-Pak military thing. But I can assure you generally in Pakistan such type of thinking does not prevail. Infact a true Muslim is a person who believes in not harming others, brotherhood, unity and equality of mankind. Thanks for your reference on Aatish Taseer’s book. His dad Salman is quite a character here in Punjab and always on the news creating trouble for Punjab Chief Minister Shahbaz Shareef with his flamboyant style and statements. LOL BTW Salman Taseer is governor Punjab.

Posted by Umairpk | Report as abusive

@Mortal
“It’s a zero-sum game which smaller countries can’t win & indulging in it, would be suicidal.”

-You will be pleasently surprised that Pakistan is moving towards a transformation, surely current Pakistan Army high command under Gen. Tariq Majeed as CJSC and Gen. Ashfaq Kayani are best and forcefully back the civilian government’s stability and are helping it build capacity in various fields. Army is staying out of politics wisely, steadily built its lost image during Musharraf years, has no intention to get in governance. ISI has recently declared militants a greater threat than India. All indicators point that Pakistan military is a source of stability for Pakistan. And a stable Pakistan in return is good for India, indirectly Pakistan Army is a positive for India as well.
While in the past things were different, but certainly Pakistan is not indulding in any zero-sum game with India. Though I agree maybe to some extent Pakistan might still be looking after some of its national interests in an obsessive manner. But lets assume old habits die hard, but its only in some cases they never die, mostly they do dissipate over some time.

Posted by Umairpk | Report as abusive

@Mortal
“Adding on to Rehmat’s point above, you are quick to point fingers at your civilian govt & politicians (& for good reason) but tell me, what good did your military rulers do for your country when they were in power? Was Pakistan any better under Zia or Musharraf than it was under Benezir or Sharif? The truth is that the men in uniform were/are just as corrupt & greedy as the civilians. In fact, while the civilians were just corrupt, the generals, with their self-destructive policies, put your country on a path to radicalization, bankruptcy & implosion. The current state of your nation, can be largely attributed to your military rulers & not civilian ones.”

-With due respect, while I am not your professor to lecture and defend Pakistan on everything. I must make it clear that I am fully aware and accept any shortcomings of Pakistan’s military.
India also has corrupt bureaucracy, politicians etc, many other flaws. Countries are not always perfect.
On top of that you don’t understand the dynamics, complexities at all. Pakistan’s emergence in 1947, the fights with India, the cold war stance, China relations etc. Come on, give me a break! Pakistan is not perfect, but you guys are always bashing Pakistan as if India is perfect. Is it? i dont think so. So lets accept that things are changing, that positive change will come, and we need to be practical and rational.

Posted by Umairpk | Report as abusive

@Rehmat
“Solving a problem requires that problem must be diagnosed. You have been misdiagnosing the problem (at least in part). your solutions are no different than what has been going in past 60yrs. Army, war, nukes, victimhood. confrontation keywords are what I see in your posts and they are of no use and worse tell the mentality and even worse shows no hope.

You need to remember few things that all nations love their soldiers and are as proud of them as you are. Secondly, Defense is just one department of govt, others being postal Dept, electricity Dept. They are all part of Pakistan.”

-The problem is diagnosed by me as simple, CORRUPTION, MEDIOCRITY, BRIBERY, DISHONESTY, LACK OF COMMITTMENT. Every developing nation and emerging economy like India, Pakistan, Argentina, Sri Lanka, Nigeria etc suffers from it. Yesterday I also happened to visit the electricity dept. to correct my utility bill and saw first hand how government is raising tarrifs as IMF wants it to withdraw subsidy on electricity and whats going on at grass root level in these offices. Same day I had to collect my Income tax registration certificate from Revenue office, and a worker I was asking a simple query, I could sense he thought I was there to file a return and he thought it was an opportunity to take bribe.
So close was the electricity dept. office, just next to what is called the 111 Brigade of X Corps Pak Army in Rawalpindi. 111 Brigade is often named as martial law brigade as its the first unit historically that was ordered to move and take over key installation during previous military takeovers. I have seen both, Pak military and Pak govt. I know which one is more capable and honest. Here is a link to Gen. Athar Army spokesman breifing in urdu and english on the rescue efforts:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Dm5j3hDN J4
Pakistan Army has put in place an excellent system to collect and distribute supplies, they are working in complete coordination in some cases along with US Marines aboard US Navy choppers. Even the Air Force is flying C-130s to ensure there is no fuel and food shortage and people who need evacuations are taken care of. Both civil government and Army are working with complete coordination and lets not forget in March 2009 during a threatening political standoff where government was not reinstating the independent minded chief justice of supreme court. Army intervened to diffuse the crisis and a tense political standoff was skilfully handled, the judge was finally reinstated overnight.
Today civil society is also coming forward along with government, ordinary citizens and delivering on the flood crisis. While the government’s initiacl response was lazy, they are now trying to speed up efforts.
My solutions are as stated before, better education, stronger economy, good governance.

My only point had been to show you the positive side of things, but all I hear is Pakistan is a failed state, beggars and loosers milking foreigners, exporters of terror. People Pakistan is just like any other country having its share of problems (maybe slightly more than normal).

Posted by Umairpk | Report as abusive

A ray of hope in pakistani parliament:

http://www.facebook.com/video/video.php? v=1534652242367

Lady MP asking to end 60 years of hatred and move on to build pakistan.

Posted by 777xxx777 | Report as abusive

I get the sense from Umair’s posts that there is a gradual and positive transformation taking place in Pakistan. So perhaps there may be no dramatic breakthrough, but things will gradually improve. I am equally happy with that.

A big thank you Umair, for continuing the dialogue and communicating honestly even when the atmosphere was full of misunderstanding. I wonder where the other Pakistani commenters have disappeared to. It would be good if this was a more inclusive dialogue with more participants.

Regards,
Ganesh Prasad

Posted by prasadgc | Report as abusive

I found this review interesting:
http://www.amazon.co.uk/product-reviews/ 1847670717
The book has enjoyed great success in Taseer’s native India, which with a population of some 160 million muslims has the third largest muslim population in the world, and produces some of the best Islamic scholars and commentary in the world. So, why would this book be of interest in India? Well, because in the last third of the book Taseer climaxes with a harsh look at the fallout from the partition of India in 1947 along religious lines; a 60 year old scar which for many in the subcontinent, even those recently born, will never heal. As an Indian with a muslim father and a sikh mother, Taseer comes close to the embodiment of the scar. Taseer’s loving, suffering mother, is India, and his aloof, uncaring father is Pakistan, the state that broke away, turned its back on its roots, abandoning its Indian history to create a brave new Islamic republic. And failed. Taseer craves some sort of acknowledgement, some acceptance from his father, but at the same time dislikes him, perhaps in the same way that Indians seem to want peace with Pakistan, in spite of the three wars that the two countries have fought over the disputed state of Kashmir.

The journey this book takes you on will leave you a stranger to Islam, but at the very end you will understand a little something of the tragedy and bitterness of the partition of India and Pakistan, in what is a unique and well written take on the issue, but ultimately not worth the trudge through the misconceived meanderings that make up most of this work.

Posted by Umairpk | Report as abusive

@”India also has corrupt bureaucracy, politicians etc, many other flaws. Countries are not always perfect.
On top of that you don’t understand the dynamics, complexities at all. Pakistan’s emergence in 1947, the fights with India, the cold war stance, China relations etc. Come on, give me a break! Pakistan is not perfect, but you guys are always bashing Pakistan as if India is perfect. Is it? i dont think so.”
Posted by Umairpk

My point was, that your justified contempt & detestation for your civilian leaders should be accompanied by similar feelings for your military leaders but while you seem to hate the civilians, you worship the ones in uniform. And that is not fair, since your military rulers have actually done much more harm to your nation. Since you brought India into this, let me state on the record that more than 90% of India’s politicians are rascals & sc*u*mbags & are probably baaps of their Pakistani counterparts, in corruption. If it was in my power, I would investigate each & every Indian politician & have them rot in jail for the rest of their lives (if proven guilty). But having said that, I would, any day accept a 100 yrs of corrupt but democratic govt over 1 day of military/dictatorship rule. I guess that’s the basic difference between Indian & Pakistani thinking.

Posted by Mortal1 | Report as abusive

I have been doing a lot of reading on Pakistan over the last couple of years. I think outsiders are under the impression that Pakistan is like Somalia. The situation is very different. Pakistan is much more developed and has far better infrastructure and systems. So it is far from being a failed state. True, it faces some severe crises, but it’s an exaggeration to call it a failed state.

The three biggest crises that I see are:

1. The economic crunch – the debt burden is excessive, the GDP growth rate is zero this year and productive infrastructure has been heavily damaged by the recent floods, hampering chances of a quick recovery.

2. Millions of displaced people making up almost 10% of the total population struggling against starvation and disease. The danger is not that militants will somehow convert them all into violent Jihadis (this is nonsense scaremongering) but that the poor and dispossessed in the countryside will be organised to raid the cities, and there will be something like civil war. Relief efforts have to be dramatically improved to stave off a social revolution.

3. The militancy that has acquired a life of its own and has gone out of control of PakMil and has even turned against it – I don’t believe that militant groups will suddenly topple the Pakistani state or seize control of nuclear weapons, etc., but they are a low-to-medium grade nuisance that can hamper Pakistan’s return to normalcy.

On the positive side, I get the feeling from whatever I read that the Pakistani mainstream gets this, and they are mentally in a state that augurs well for solutions to all these problems.

I can’t help thinking that a peace deal with India will at a stroke help to solve all three problems.

1. Direct Indian investments in Pakistan will help of course, but more importantly, when the region is seen to be more peaceful, external investment will also pick up.

2. India is the best positioned country to provide massive supplies of aid to the flood-hit in Pakistan. If the Pakistani authorities can get over their suspicions of Indian intentions, can the Indian Air Force not help tremendously in airdropping relief supplies?

3. A peace deal will take the wind out of the militants’ sails. I am sure popular support for the anti-India Jihad will drop even further once the two countries officially kiss and make up.

Regards,
Ganesh Prasad

Posted by prasadgc | Report as abusive

While I agree that Pakistan is not a failed state like Somalia or Sudan, it’s showing persistently failing symptoms & if not cured, it will become a failed state eventually (the timing is debatable). The way I look at it, the flood crisis has brought Pakistan on the crossroads of their destiny. One way leads to burying the enemity with India which will enable it to build it’s economy, educate it’s masses & become a progressive, tolerant & prosperous nation. The other way leads to keeping the enemity with India alive & continuing with the self-destructive tendencies which has turned it into a radicalized nation with a basket case ecconomy. The first way will lead Pakistan to becoming a successful nation & the second one will make it a failed state. It’s entirely upto the Pakistanis, as to which way they want to go.

Posted by Mortal1 | Report as abusive

@Ganesh
You are very accurate in your assessment of the current situation in Pakistan. Read below how your analysis accurately matches with this Financial Times article: Pakistan, A precarious position
http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/dfc28556-b5fe- 11df-a048-00144feabdc0.html

-And also an article how the banking sector is under threat now, this sector was previously resilient in face of Global recession, but now 5 top Pakistani banks face danger. Pressure is building up on banking sector, with cotton farming and textile sector taking direct hits from flooding.
**”Others share a more optimistic outlook. Satyabrata Pal, a former Indian high commissioner to Pakistan, said he expected the neighbouring country’s economy to bounce back quickly from last month’s natural disaster.

He said the floods, part of a seasonal rainfall pattern across south Asia, would make Pakistan’s land more fertile, and crops higher yielding in the future.”**

Link: http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/5b786f7a-b731- 11df-839a-00144feabdc0.html

@Mortal
While I agree with you that Pakistan has shown persistently failing symptoms but also in my opinion Pakistan has shown to come back from brink each time. The different state institutions fail periodically. When the civil government messes up, its the Army that pitches in to stabilize the country. When the Army fails, its always the civil society that makes its voice heard. Recently, the judiciary and media have been strong too.

Posted by Umairpk | Report as abusive

Hey Umair,

Is Fojia Ejaz Khan a respected politician in Pakistan?

Posted by 777xxx777 | Report as abusive

Ganesh:
“If the Pakistani authorities can get over their suspicions of Indian intentions, can the Indian Air Force not help tremendously in airdropping relief supplies?”

-The other day, while crossing Islamabad Highway and just next to runway of Islamabad airport, I saw a huge AN-24 cargo aircraft descending on final approach and landing.
It must have brought in some relief supplies from somewhere.
Even though it would be symbolic, an IAF cargo IL-76 plane landing at Chaklala airbase (ISB airport) and Indian crewmembers unloading relief supplies marked “Gift from people of India to people of Pakistan” would do very little to boost India’s image. But I think it would still be a watershed moment, first step on the road to build some trust.
BTW popular support in Pakistan was shown by people by electing moderate political parties in 2008 elections. The tiny minority that support anti-India Jihad has no followers and don’t win votes either.

And, lastly a video to share, Indian Army chief made speechless by a Pakistani Army brigadier in Delhi.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vi2j54PDJ tA&feature=related

This video is just shared to make the point that often ISI and Pakistan Army are shown as villains in India.

Posted by Umairpk | Report as abusive

777
Fozia Ejaz Khan is from MQM(Mutahidda Qaumi Movement) Karachi based party and rival to ruling Poeples Party in Sindh Province. MQM are tigers of Karachi, they fight feudalism and hailed by people of Karachi. No one can dare to win an election in Karachi, its MQM territory. Karachi Mayor Mustafa Kamal did lot of development work there.

The speech was amazing. and she is certainly well respected.

If India could rather start peace initiatives from Karachi and work your way up north, a lot of change can happen.

Posted by Umairpk | Report as abusive

Umair said “This video is just shared to make the point that often ISI and Pakistan Army are shown as villains in India.”

“BTW popular support in Pakistan was shown by people by electing moderate political parties in 2008 elections. The tiny minority that support anti-India Jihad has no followers and don’t win votes either.”

****Thanks for your response eearlier.

I need your help in explaining me few things. I can totally understand that these fundamentalist political parties are not supported by people of Pakistan. Are you making the point that anti-Indian Jihadis are supported by radical political parties who are not in power? How do you reconcile the fact that anti-India Jihadis, supported by powerless political parties, have been used as an extension of Pakistan Army/ISI. Are you saying PakArmy/ISI is influenced by those tiny groups. That would be worrisome and means people will by democracy will not help in shaping this particular area of foreign policy.

Then, is it not understandable to you that ISI and Pakistan Army, which uses anti-India Jihad as a covert tool, will be seen as villains in India?

Last but not least, can you tell me how a Jamat-e-Islami, a party that has never managed to win the seats in the parliament, still signed MoU with China. So they are powerful enough that a foreign nation seeks their approval? MoU are normally signed by the national govt not individual political parties, certainly not those powerless parties which are not even supported by people of Pakistan. JI-China MoU is something that I could not understand.

Posted by rehmat | Report as abusive

Umair you wrote to 777 “If India could rather start peace initiatives from Karachi and work your way up north, a lot of change can happen.”

–I just read this after I posted my earlier post which included JI-China MoU. what you suggested is MQM-India relationship. I do not think it is possible all routes to India-Pakistan peace go through Islamabad. India is not in situation where China is and India dealing with anyone other than national govt will not be allowed.

Posted by rehmat | Report as abusive

@rehmat
” India dealing with anyone other than national govt will not be allowed.”

Absolutely correct. India dealing with anyone inside pakistan other than national government will be seen with suspicion and will be interpreted as attempt to cut pakistan in half. And we certainly do not want that feeling to take deeper roots.

@Umair
“MQM are tigers of Karachi, they fight feudalism and hailed by people of Karachi. No one can dare to win an election in Karachi, its MQM territory. Karachi Mayor Mustafa Kamal did lot of development work there.”

May be its time the MQM takes control of Islamabad and young guys like you jump in for the cause. And may be Indian MPs should take some inspiration from Fozia Khan. She was right in saying that 60 years of hatred has given us nothing but poverty, disease and corruptions. While it is absolutely not possible for india to deal with anyone other than pakistani govt but it is certainly possible to get MQM to power in islamabad in 10 years time may be.
And since I come from a business family I know very well the business capabilities of sindhis and thats why because of them there is a Karachi. If those people had better government machinery to deal with, Pakistan would have been an altogether different place today.

And for a change I respect a Pakistani Parliamentarian (Mrs Fozia Khan) despite of being an Indian. She certainly seems to be a lady with a very strong character. Both nations need a few more like her in power.

Posted by 777xxx777 | Report as abusive

nvrforgetmbai said “Build a Israeli security barrier type wall between the two countries and move on with our lives.”

**** Sister, few points here: India is not Israel NOR DO I WANT INDIA TO BE LIKE ISREAL ANY DAY. Isreal has an attitude that goes along with the wall. we do not have that. It will be good to compare the India-Pak terrain with that in Israel. India-Pak terrain is flat, desert, and mountainous. It is not an easy to build a wall in such terrain for its POTENTIAL benefits. This proposed “great wall of India” is like olden days of fortification where 1 or more layers of walls were used to protect a city or a fort. WE are in a new wi-fi age where terrorists can be activated using technology. Just one is enough to beat the wall and do its job.

There is no alternative to political settlement.

Posted by rehmat | Report as abusive

What happened to other Pakistanis like Shaquib Bhutto? We need a few more moderate voices from Pakistan here. Umair is the only guy answering everything on behalf of Pakistan. I’d like to see the trolls from both India and Pakistan to stay out and allow the moderates to discuss positive things.

Umair and other Pakistanis – I know life is busy. But when you get time, please do read a lot more about India, its diversity, its people, its vast history, the hurdles it has been facing etc. There is plenty of literature around. There are quite a few ones that dwell on the negative side about India. But negative feeding will only strengthen wrong perspectives. There are lot of good things about India which many fail to see. I can suggest some books and see if you have any chance to get them. It is important to understand each other in depth rather than rely on what others have been telling. We all need to educate ourselves at all times and form our own opinions. Many parrot other’s opinions most of the time without giving a serious thought about them. There are lot of negative things about any country. Negative attitude invites negative response and we have seen plenty of it here. Let us try positive things so that we understand each other better. It is very important at this juncture.

As far comparing India and Pakistan, Umair had mentioned about France and the US. Well, France, UK etc were colonial powers before WW II. If one includes all the territory they had under them prior to WWII, its area was much larger than the US or USSR. Sun never set on the British empire. It would be great to build healthy competition, but it should not be based on ego. Ego triggers wrong assumptions about the competing party. India is not competing with any of its neighbors. It is only trying to find its true place in this world for its size and accomplishments. In that regard it compares with China. But China is way ahead and we are fine with that. We will not try to drag China’s feet down. I never liked the ferocity and intensity that dwelt on ego and pride when cricket or hockey matches were played between the two countries. That kind of venom is dangerous. Indians are a bit easy going. But Pakistani players get too emotional. I saw Misbah Ul Haq’s posture when India beat Pakistan in the first World 20/20 in South Africa. He was sitting like a man ready to take beheading for losing in shame. Such acts passionate display and body language do reflect the true feelings. It is ok to win or lose. I can clearly see your sportsmen not so concerned about losing to Sri Lanka or England. Imran Khan in one of the you tube videos says that losing to India is not an option. It is small little things like these that need to change. Of course in India there are places like Mumbai and Calcutta where people get frenzied about losing games. People in the sub-continent need to change.

A lot of town hall meetings involving Indian and Pakistani moderates have to be staged in a lot of places. Kashmir issue needs to be discussed in all openness. Public in India have to be educated about the need to settle Kashmir quickly and move on. I saw one with MJ Akbar from India and Ahmed Rashid from Pakistan. Both are highly respected writers and it was wonderful to watch it.

This is the time for compassion. The pictures of new born babies amidst this flood calamity will bring tears to anyone’s eyes. The floods have opened up a chance for the people of the two countries to reach out and console each other. I think we should build on it. This is a great opportunity and we should not miss it.

Posted by KPSingh01 | Report as abusive

Rehmat:
” I can totally understand that these fundamentalist political parties are not supported by people of Pakistan. Are you making the point that anti-Indian Jihadis are supported by radical political parties who are not in power? How do you reconcile the fact that anti-India Jihadis, supported by powerless political parties, have been used as an extension of Pakistan Army/ISI. Are you saying PakArmy/ISI is influenced by those tiny groups. That would be worrisome and means people will by democracy will not help in shaping this particular area of foreign policy.”

-How to define a ‘radical political party’ is difficult, assuming you mean right wing Jamat-e-Islami yes maybe they support Jihad. Pakistan Army/ISI is a highly professioanl organization and does not support or get influenced by such groups. A Pakistani military officer gets selected based on his academic ability/physical fitness, intelligence, capability. There is no room for religious fanaticism in Army, they are very balanced and sane.

Having said that, I would like to share a video of 13 years old brain washed hindu girl’s speech against Pakistan:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iHd_7-9oN w0
Leaves me wondering if there are also BJP,RSS,VHP hindu fundamentalists who call for raising Indian flag over Islamabad.

Posted by Umairpk | Report as abusive

@rehmat
“NOR DO I WANT INDIA TO BE LIKE ISREAL ANY DAY”

I understand ur statement in light of given context but as they say never say ‘never’. One of my cousins went to Tel Aviv for some Navy training and when he came back he told something very good and that was that every house in Tel Aviv has solar panels mounted on roof and the circuit in each house is such that when people are not in house then the electricity generated by solar panels is actually transferred back to power grid. I was more than astonished on hearing this.
So my point is that while we certainly do not want to have a political stand like israel but technologically we are yet to learn a lot.

And thats why peace and progress are necessary to innovate and hence survive in 21st century instead of wasting resources on stupid fights fuelled by false suspicions, loads of hatred and petty sentiments.

“JI-China MoU is something that I could not understand”

Sabbb setttting hai bhaaaai…..Its all about jugaad..

@nvrforgetmbai
If we can get a peace deal formally signed and locked by both sides(BJP under Vajpayee came very close to getting it done) then it is much more than your proposed wall and in that case Israel will need to learn a thing or two from us. And if in past we came close to it so certainly in near future it is achievable. If only we can get rid of this f**g, bullsh*t cong government in India as game played by cong since independence is now very clearly evident. Ironically Cong is seen as pro-muslim party in India and BJP is seen as anti-muslim anti-pakistan, but the solution that cong could not find in 40 years was almost accomplished by BJP in mere 5 years. Strong political will is what is needed on both sides. And i am more than 500% sure that this b*** soniya gandhi has none of will or leadership to do any real good to the nation. I guess she should hear Fozia Khan’s speech and learn a thing or two.

Posted by 777xxx777 | Report as abusive

@”Having said that, I would like to share a video of 13 years old brain washed hindu girl’s speech against Pakistan” Posted by Umairpk

I laughed at that just as hard as I did after watching the nut job hamid zaid talk about raising Pakistani flag in Delhi. For every video about an Indian giving hate speech against pakistan out there, there are 10 about a Pakistani mullah giving hate speech against India. So, let’s not take these unsubstantiated youtube videos too seriously & instead use them to increase our life-span by laughing at them.

Posted by Mortal1 | Report as abusive

Umairpk:

> Having said that, I would like to share a video of 13 years old brain washed hindu girl’s speech against Pakistan:

It would be fair to say that the reaction of Indians to this would be either to laugh outright, or to nod acknowledgment of the sentiment (that India has had enough of Pakistan-sponsored terrorism) but recognise the rest as just rhetoric and shrug it off. It comes with the saffron territory, that’s what gets a few votes, but these are essentially fringe parties.

Continuing mistrust is what gives views like this an audience. If there is peace and an end to terrorism (even if it’s just thanks to a wall, like nvrforgetmbai talks about), this girl would be laughed off the stage.

Regards,
Ganesh Prasad

Posted by prasadgc | Report as abusive

Mortal1 said:

> Since you brought India into this, let me state on the record that more than 90% of India’s politicians are rascals & sc*u*mbags & are probably baaps of their Pakistani counterparts, in corruption. If it was in my power, I would investigate each & every Indian politician & have them rot in jail for the rest of their lives (if proven guilty).

This blog entry by Pritish Nandy, a respected Indian journalist, may be of interest: http://bit.ly/9CVtI3

Regards,
Ganesh Prasad

Posted by prasadgc | Report as abusive

@”While I agree with you that Pakistan has shown persistently failing symptoms but also in my opinion Pakistan has shown to come back from brink each time.” Posted by Umairpk

I agree that you guys are a resiliant bunch & have managed to survive despite everything but ultimately adversities take their toll on any nation, if corrective measures are not taken. Look at it as a person who’s been getting sick with serious illnesses over the years but manages to survive without getting medically treated. Finally, the illnesses take take their toll on his body, his vital organs fail & he collapses. Pakistan has also gotten increasingly sicker over the years & needs urgent medical attention.

Posted by Mortal1 | Report as abusive

I read an interesting piece on the US some months ago in Time magazine and was struck by one of the phrases used. The analyst said the US had a huge “margin of error”, by which he meant that the US had the luxury of making lots of big mistakes and getting away with it.

So to Umair’s and Mortal’s points above, I think it’s not so much a matter of past resilience because it simply means Pakistan’s margin of error was higher in the past. That margin of error has drastically reduced now. Pakistan can’t afford more policy mistakes. Wise leadership within its government and a high degree of civic mindedness among its citizens are critically required now.

Regards,
Ganesh Prasad

Posted by prasadgc | Report as abusive

Umairpk said “How to define a ‘radical political party’ is difficult, assuming you mean right wing Jamat-e-Islami yes maybe they support Jihad.”
*** Umair, we are getting stuck with words. your own quote might answer your question “I will quote you BTW popular support in Pakistan was shown by people by electing moderate political parties in 2008 elections. The tiny minority that support anti-India Jihad has no followers and don’t win votes either.”

You said “Pakistan Army/ISI is a highly professioanl organization and does not support or get influenced by such groups. A Pakistani military officer gets selected based on his academic ability/physical fitness, intelligence, capability. There is no room for religious fanaticism in Army, they are very balanced and sane.”
*** I do not disagree with you. I am trying to understand: 1. if political parties such as JI (or others) who “might” support anti-India Jihad have never been in power and PA/ISI are professional who runs and maintains anti-India Jihad infrastructure? 2. Isn’t JI powerful enough that China signs MoU with JI. That MoU in my view was about China’s own worry about Uighurs.

Then you said “Having said that, I would like to share a video of 13 years old brain washed hindu girl’s speech against Pakistan.Leaves me wondering if there are also BJP,RSS,VHP hindu fundamentalists who call for raising Indian flag over Islamabad.
***I see other posters addressed this. I do not know what group is she part of. Logo on her forehead suggest she is a Hindu girl!!! Let us discuss the policy issues. No point in wasting our energies on such individual cases. There are plenty such individuals from India and Pakistan on the internet wishing all kind of things on each other. The Hindu fundamentalism so far has been India’s INCREASING domestic worry BUT is not affecting Pakistan anyway. HOWEVER, anti-India Jihad we just mentioned is Pakistan’s INCREASING domestic worry as well as affecting India and Indo-Pak relations.

One must distinguish political parties such as BJP and the supportive groups such as RSS and Shiv Sena and many other fringe groups. BJP has blood on its hands (Gujarat riots) but you should not worry since they do not seems to have real plans for raising Indian flag over Islamabad!!!! From Pakistan (and India also) POV, BJP must be credited for starting Indo-Pak peace deal (Vajpayee-Musharraf).

777xxx777 said “So my point is that while we certainly do not want to have a political stand like israel but technologically we are yet to learn a lot.”
*** as you noted the context was “wall”. I DO NOT support Isreal’s ways to deal with the Palestine issue. Yes we should learn from Isreal for technology for any purpose that suits India’s interests.

Posted by rehmat | Report as abusive

@rehmat
“BJP has blood on its hands (Gujarat riots)”

So does Cong (Punjab), SP, BSP (frequent riotings in UP), Left (Bengal) have blood on their hands….i dont know of any major political party in India that do not has blood on its hands. I guess that represents the mentality of average Indian society in general. Each party becomes big by shedding blood. And if shedding blood results in getting bigger then it is a matter of concern for average Indians and we need to change our fundamental thinking.

But still we have to choose someone so we should choose wisely. And in Gujrat BJP has done quit a lot of development since then and that is far far more than that done by any party in any other state in India. So blood stains will remain but as we have been all saying in this post that history cannot be changed but future can be shaped. So let us shape a better future.

Posted by 777xxx777 | Report as abusive

@rehmat
” From Pakistan (and India also) POV, BJP must be credited for starting Indo-Pak peace deal (Vajpayee-Musharraf)”

More so from India’s POV for bringing peace to valley that once brits called heaven on earth.

Posted by 777xxx777 | Report as abusive

777xxx777 said: @So does Cong (Punjab), SP, BSP (frequent riotings in UP), Left (Bengal) have blood on their hands….i dont know of any major political party in India that do not has blood on its hand.
***Congress is culprit due to riots in Delhi and elsewhere and using Bhindranwale as an instrument to their use in first place.

without digressing anyfurther I agree all have blood on hands.

@And in Gujrat BJP has done quit a lot of development since then and that is far far more than that done by any party in any other state in India. So blood stains will remain but as we have been all saying in this post that history cannot be changed but future can be shaped. So let us shape a better future.”
*** Better economy/development is no bandaid for what happened in the past. Are you willing to elect leaders who kill minority and promote develeopment? I am not in their favor. Bad news is that Modi type guys will still do and that is the reason they are UNFIT to be national leaders. There is no place for a rightwing leader in PM office. BJP rose to power due to Babri Masjid but it was Vajpayee’s image that made that happen. He proved it by his attempts at India-Pak back channel talks on Kashmir and other efforts throughout.

Each party and its state and national leader has to prove that that they care for everyone, especially the minorities.

Posted by rehmat | Report as abusive

Correction:

“Bad news is that Modi type guys will still do and that is the reason they are UNFIT to be IN POSITION OF POWER-NATIONAL AS WELL AS REGIONAL.”

Posted by rehmat | Report as abusive

@rehmat
“Each party and its state and national leader has to prove that that they care for everyone, especially the minorities”

I live in UP the state that has largest minority population in the whole of India. And for past 25 years every single party (including some of the hard core minority caring parties) have exploited the minority sentiment (as stated by you above) for fulfilling their own evil adventures. Tell me one thing why has no such “minority caring” party has ever raised any voice or pushed for any reform for education in muslims. Its an open truth in India about education penetration among muslims. You are yourself a well educated guy so tell me is there not need for serious reforms the way muslims get their education and has any of your minority caring parties have done anything in that direction. Is reservation WITHOUT infrastructure expansion the correct thing to do? Will this kind of measure lead to integration or disintegration of India? All Indian parties (including Congress and BJP) have just exploited minority caring sentiment probably because majority of the minority does not know themselves what kind of care do they need. Here in UP majority of muslims want everything except modern education…WHY? Why do muslims say that if something bad happened to any of them then it is because he/she is a muslim…why so much inferiority complex?? Why not modern education? Why not join mainstream and move on while keeping the religious faith intact? Why does religious faith comes in way of integrating with others and joining mainstream?? Only very small section of muslims have found answers to these questions and therefore have progressed very well. So it is responsibility of those muslims, who have reaped benefits of modern education, that they should spread awareness among other people of community to adopt modern education. Same goes for Hindus like SC,ST,OBC,etc. We already have laws against child labour and now RTE which are good. But reservation without capacity/infrastructure expansion will only lead to disaster and nothing else.

Even at times of Mauryan Empire in India we had universities like Taxila and people realised importance of education then why are we losing that realisation now???

Although I agree that what happened in Gujrat should NOT have happened and I condemn it in most ferocious ways and should not happen again (including Godhra train massacare). But look at Japan, US dropped bombs on Japan and after end of WWII Japan shook hands with US and look at them now. So there is no price for peace and economic development. Revenges can never be fulfilled but they destroy the possessor.

And going by your logic I guess we should not try to find peace and progress in Kashmir unless we get our revenges…is it???

Posted by 777xxx777 | Report as abusive

and the greatest rightwing leader of our times is bloody b**ch Soniya Gandhi….who has more power than PMO and has no democratic responsibility whatsoever. And why has she not spoken a word about commonwealth games corruption charges???? Throw her(the most corrupt leader) out first then we will discuss who deserves to lead PMO in India.

Posted by 777xxx777 | Report as abusive

777xxx777, “And going by your logic I guess we should not try to find peace and progress in Kashmir unless we get our revenges…is it???”
***you got it calculated wrong. Revenge or eye for an eye blinds the world and I never propose that. NEVER (in my right mind). All I say is that majority can look at Modi’s pro-development projects and they can afford to forget his misdeeds (which I cannot). I also remember Godhra killings of Hindus before the Muslims were killed. I will have same views for the XYZ political party if ABC minority was attacked. I have same views about any party including Congress that provoked anti-Sikh riots.

More later.

Posted by rehmat | Report as abusive

777xxx777: “and the greatest rightwing leader of our times is bloody b**ch Soniya Gandhi….who has more power than PMO and has no democratic responsibility whatsoever. And why has she not spoken a word about commonwealth games corruption charges???? Throw her(the most corrupt leader) out first then we will discuss who deserves to lead PMO in India.”
*** While she might be the animal you mentioned, throwing her out first then discussing who deserves to lead PMO in India statement is typed in anger. Actually BJP with its right policies can make Soniya irrelevent. She is not preventing BJP to come to power. It is BJP’s own policies that is a hurdle in their way. After Sikh riots orchestrated by Congress leaders, Akali Dal allied with BJP. BJP’s emphasis on Hindutva is driving Muslims towards Congress. Babri and Gujarat just precipitated BJP’s image. Perosonally, I do not care–Sikh masses would—about Congress action in Golden Temple since it was needed, I would not–Muslim masses would- be sensitive about a non-functional Babri mosque and ignore it as work of nuts. I am worried about killing of Sikhs by Congress and Muslims by peripheral parties with open support by BJP–state as well as national govt. I wish minority vote bank game is not played and useful issues such as Roti Kapra or Makan for all as well as “increased literacy/education among Muslims India” are discussed/planned.

All parties need to make the minorities feel secure.

“Tell me one thing why has no such “minority caring” party has ever raised any voice or pushed for any reform for education in muslims.”
*** I am not here to defend Congress. That Muslims are educationally backward in india is well known. It is senstive and complex subject. Many of the Muslims are converts from lower caste Hindus which were not doing well to begin with. Muslims are hurting themselves by living in Ghettos but that is driven by survival instincts. Ghettoisation has not allowed Muslims to come out of this circle of backwardness and poverty. Even if they are educated in the well to do countries, their overall contribution to the society in makinging new discoveries is exceptionally low. There is a circle of conservatism that you get rid of once you take a minimal step. I have been able to do and earn my doctorate while my closer cousins are stuck in the same circle. Staying in ghettos and being aloof of what goes around you is tough job and understood when you sit and watch India-Cricket match. While I support India, they support Pakistan. If I talk to each one of them individually what the hell is that about, they agree that I make sense but ten of them thrown together is totally different ball game. After the Cricket match they are normal dudes who love their society and people around–including HIndus (do I have to add?).

Oh well!

Posted by rehmat | Report as abusive

Interesting perspective, Rehmat. The voice of Indian Muslims has been missing from this forum and your comments add an interesting and rich dimension to our discussions.

Thanks, keep it coming.

Regards,
Ganesh Prasad

Posted by prasadgc | Report as abusive

@rehmat
First I visited this one to know your views and I must say u are a refreshing guy. You said “Ghettoisation” and thats what make hindus feel more and more insecure that muslims do not mix well and want to run away with the nation one day. When hindus c muslims in India cheer pakistan team tell me how would hindus feel? You are right that this is the circle that has to be broken and as u and me both agree now that it can be achieved through massive educational reforms throughout the nation for all people be it majority, minority, backward, forward or whoever.

But tell me is caring for minority means stripping majority of all their rights? Can one hegimony be replaced by another? Is policies like reservation for ‘minority’ without, increasing capacity and therefore at the cost of ‘majority’, are constructive? Do you think ‘majority’ playing its part (somewhat) for controlling population menace and ‘minority’ community leaders saying NO to it altogether helping anyone here?

This is what Hindus in this country have witnessed all through their history right from Kutub-u-din-aibak days that they will lose their nation and tradition to muslims. History has it well documented that Hindu society was very open to caste system where a brahmin could become a warrior and daughters had full right to choose their husbands but muslim invasions and consequent forced religion conversions set deep fears in hindu society and rigidity set in. Even to this date hindus curse the days of muslim invasions that destroyed hindu societies to core and made it so much rigid. And partition of the nation in 1947 left so many scars on both communities that the insecurities run very very deep. I firmly believe had it been a seperate country for anyone other than muslims India would have had a much better relationship with it than it has with Pakistan today. Creation of Pakistan was itself a big factor to drive hindus nuts and make that insecurity go deeper into their hearts that they have been witnessing through hundreds of years of muslim invasions.

But this is 21st century now. So it is time we rectify mistakes our forefathers made. Open our hearts to each other and start thinking of nation as one and be ready to shed away our some of the rigid religious stands for overall good of the nation. Then may be someday majority (my notion of majority is altogether different from that of political parties in india, I say majority means almost EVERYONE) will think of better relations among the two nuclear power neighbours (or may be even 3, if u include China as well).

I know may be I said a few harsh and touching words but difficult questions need an answer.

Posted by 777xxx777 | Report as abusive

> Creation of Pakistan was itself a big factor to drive hindus nuts and make that insecurity go deeper into their hearts that they have been witnessing through hundreds of years of muslim invasions.

I’m not so sure that the current generation of Hindus has any insecurities about the creation of Pakistan. The more conservative they are, the more thankful they must be that an extra 170 million Muslims aren’t within their own country!

Sometimes, living separately (but peacefully) is better than being forced to live together. I’m personally comfortable about the idea of Pakistan and don’t believe that the two countries should reunite into a single one. Having a loose federation with close economic ties is enough.

Regards,
Ganesh Prasad

Posted by prasadgc | Report as abusive

@Ganesh
“I’m not so sure that the current generation of Hindus has any insecurities about the creation of Pakistan.”

Certainly not. you r right about that. I never said about political unification or any stupid thing like that. All I meant was let us have free trade and visa free travel so that borders are irrelevant.

But I was talking in historical perspectives. It is a open truth that muslims took away a piece of land and resources in name of Islam, Political parties in India have frequently been trying to portray themselves as “Pro-Muslim”, combined all this with all the historical facts and enmity with a muslim neighbour and you will understand the agony of a very large section of hindus. I m myself a minority guy (not a muslim though, there are minority communities other than muslims as well in India) but I feel taking away the homeland of Hindus is was right and infringing their human rights just to make minorities comfortable is not correct. Hindus are one the most flexible people u can find on earth and expect muslims to be flexible as well. Tell me why muslims keep calling all non-muslims as ‘Kaafirs’. Hindus never say so to non-hindus. Idea is to mix and live harmoniously with each other. Muslims fail to do that and then blame everything on hindus for suppressing them and political parties make them their PAWNS in chess of power. How can Hindus support financially for Muslim education when they call fellow hindus as Kaafirs and pakistanis their brothers even in face of events like Mumbai attacks??? How do muslims expect that they can be accepted the most superior race and others are treated like ‘Kaafirs’? Respect is always give and take and never one way. Shahenshah Akbar realised this, but dont know why muslims this day fail to realise this?

Everything can be made right if only we have only and only one goal in mind and heart that we need progress and development of human race within the larger frameworks of the mother nature. And for that religion should not come in the way. Historically the societies that are based too much on religion remain troubled, engaged in wars and hence backward. Time to move on.

Posted by 777xxx777 | Report as abusive

**TYPO
“I feel taking away the homeland of Hindus is was right”
SHOULD READ AS
“I feel taking away the homeland of Hindus was NOT right”

Posted by 777xxx777 | Report as abusive

Ganesh and 777xxx777, Thanks

777xxx777 said

“Ghettoisation” and thats what make hindus feel more and more insecure that muslims do not mix well and want to run away with the nation one day.”
****Are you kidding? I think we need to find the real enemy than this unnecessary one. At 80% Hindus should drop this paranoia.

As i said “Ghettoisation” is complex and part of the blame goes to Muslim community and the rest to others who live in mental ghettos. One example is even Muslim bollywood stars like Shabana Azmi and Aamir Khan have been prevented to buy property in certain areas just because of their religion. there are several examples out there. Rest is survival instincts and comfort zone in localized communities. Educational reforms will peel away youth who have no other way than merge. WE need receptive communities for that. The poison of religious radicalism is spreading fast and deep.

“When hindus c muslims in India cheer pakistan team tell me how would hindus feel?”
***THis is worry not JUST OF HINDUS but of Indians and that includes me too. It is not as if all of them do this. Let me tell you one small example. one of my cousin who cheers pak team against India, supports Indian Team against all other teams, is a huge fan of Sehwag.
I half jokingly asked him to marry a Pakistani girl I know of since he is such a supporter of Pak Team. His reaction was “no way”. Not that I judge it one way or the other, but it tells that he is not blind in his support. I cannot speak for the community here. Bad apples exist in every community. Labeling a community miniPakistan in Gujarat is ignorance and stupidity.

“. Even to this date hindus curse the days of muslim invasions that destroyed hindu societies to core and made it so much rigid.”
***History cannot be reversed. Inavsions and occupatoions happened and I will not take credit or discredit for that and not should anyone alive today. Read it as history, get over and do something today to improve future. We in this region are fond of history!

” And partition of the nation in 1947 left so many scars on both communities that the insecurities run very very deep.”
*** I appreciate you said BOTH communities. Let me add that there was a third community involved and was affected: Sikhs.

“I firmly believe had it been a seperate country for anyone other than muslims India would have had a much better relationship with it than it has with Pakistan today.”
***Perhaps you are right. If chinese were part of India, I can tell you for sure they would bite much harder with a UN-recognized boundary dispute.

“Creation of Pakistan was itself a big factor to drive hindus nuts and make that insecurity go deeper into their hearts that they have been witnessing through hundreds of years of muslim invasions”
*** My understanding is that Hindus are relieved to get rid of a significant chunk of Muslims.
I would like to make a point here that talking about Indian Muslims and Pakistan in the same breath is derailing yourself from the main issue. Do not label the Indian Muslims as a community ready with bag pack to take the next bus to Islamabad.

I agree with you that we need to be receptive and tolerant to each other.

More later,
peace

Posted by rehmat | Report as abusive

@rehmat
“At 80% Hindus should drop this paranoia”
“I agree with you that we need to be receptive and tolerant to each other.”

Now this is what is worrying all hindus in India right now is rigid non-participation by muslim community in controlling population menace. Muslim leaders continue to deny the child birth control measures as Un-Islamic and, I am sorry to say, but they are being real pig headed fools. On the other hand as more and more hindus get modern education (combined with economics of nation) they realise the importance of population control and willingly contribute to the solution as well. Then why not muslims. And this is the fear hindus have in long run that this 80 will become 8 one day and tables will be turned and combined with radical intolerance of muslim community, u can imagine the fear urself.

“one of my cousin who cheers pak team against India, supports Indian Team against all other teams, is a huge fan of Sehwag”

Thats the trouble that most people in muslim community are BLINDED by religion.

“Do not label the Indian Muslims as a community ready with bag pack to take the next bus to Islamabad.”

Come to West UP and c for urself and then tell me. In the city that I live in (I wont tell the name out of sheer fear of muslim radicalism level here) we have a university where in the hostels every night mulim guys raise Pakistan flag and shout “Pakistan Zindabad” slogans. On the day of Mumbai attacks those students even distributed sweets among themselves. Tell me how am I supposed to feel????

It was not that Hindus were radical always. Hindus are far more cooler and receptive than may be Jews or Christians are towards Muslims. But this hard core intolerance and Ghettoisation of muslim community in India even after 60 years of partition is what is radicalising hidus now and it is very very ALARMING to me personally that so and so hindu organisation planted a blast somewhere. And to add fuel to fire Muslim leaders keep on denying population control measures as un-islamic. This drives every hindu nuts. I am not sure u realise it or not but this is truth what hindus today fear.

Posted by 777xxx777 | Report as abusive

777xxx777: “Now this is what is worrying all hindus in India right now is rigid non-participation by muslim community in controlling population menace. Muslim leaders continue to deny the child birth control measures as Un-Islamic and, I am sorry to say, but they are being real pig headed fools.”
***Unlike Catholics, Islam does not prohibit birth control. Those leaders are worse than you mentioned. Birth control is a success in Bangladesh. Islam is not in way of birth control.

“And this is the fear hindus have in long run that this 80 will become 8 one day and tables will be turned and combined with radical intolerance of muslim community, u can imagine the fear urself.”
***your fear is based on what may happen. We should not visit pre-partition history too much. Let us see which is more likely: the possibility that Muslim community will get another Gujarat type treatment, which is a shameful historical fact in post-partition India OR your fear of Muslim overpopulation one day overtaking the non-Muslim population and run away with the country. The answer to me is clear. The rise of radical Hinduism as a reaction does not cut ice with me since Babri Masjid incident is poking with the history and sowing seeds of trouble and nothing to do with the current day Indian Muslims. There is a need to stop playing with the sentiments (right or wrong) of both communities.

There is a need to NOT label the whole community responsible for any misdeed of some.

“On the day of Mumbai attacks those students even distributed sweets among themselves. Tell me how am I supposed to feel????”
***I am sorry to hear that. This troubles me as much as it does you. I won’t even laugh it off. But do notice there were Muslims who protested against 26/11 and did not bury the killed terrorist. Again, let us not make the whole community responsible. Indiscriminate bombing will not know religion. I hope those young guys know that.

there is a need to be tolerant, educate and be more aware of right and wrong, get out of physical and mental ghettos, merge with each other, participate in each other’s festivities (or at least mourn the death). Suspicion will not solve anything but will increase the problems.

Peace!

Posted by rehmat | Report as abusive

@rehmat
“Islam is not in way of birth control”

Please read again. I never said Islam is in way of birth control. I said Muslim leaders are in the way and believe that in all good sense of world the Muslim leaders do not represent whole of Islam and certainly do not own Islam.

“the possibility that Muslim community will get another Gujarat type treatment, which is a shameful historical fact in post-partition India”

It is the ‘majority’ that has been getting the Gujrat type treatment frequently in state of UP all in name of ‘caring for minority’. Why the hell ‘minority’ feels cared by killing? Can the stains of blood be washed with more blood? So come to UP and live for 25 years and then u will know that it is the ‘majority’ that is given a second class treatment for getting votes of ‘minority’. And what really troubles me is that WHY ‘minority’ votes for someone who treats a non-muslim as a second class citizen, there-to-be-slaughtered type. So the fears both in UP and Gujrat are very real. And only Gujrat is not shameful, list is long:- Amritsar, Meerut, Varanasi, Aligarh, Orrisa, Mumbai, and so on. And this shame can be washed only by tolerance and contribution to national growth and not letting religion come in way of it.

“Babri Masjid incident is poking with the history and sowing seeds of trouble ”

That was a political stunt and what is troublesome is that BJP got to power because of it. Because i have always maintained that it is not the politics but it is the votes that count. And only silver lining in that was Mr Vajpayee. But babri masjid incident was played to exploit fear of hindus in UP where they were always treated as second class citizens living under constant fear of being slaughtered by muslims all in name of as i said ‘caring for minority’ by the favourite party of ‘minority’–Congress and as soon as BJP came to power in UP they sensed this fear and exploited it to maximum for their personal power games.

“There is a need to stop playing with the sentiments (right or wrong) of both communities”

I am glad you said BOTH.

“participate in each other’s festivities (or at least mourn the death)”

I used to participate in Mithi Id with my muslim friends (I am a pure veggie so not the second Id for me) but after seeing those universities guys distributing sweets among themselves on day of Mumbai attacks I am just so sad that I didn’t even felt like wishing Id to my friends this year. But i do hope that by diwali i get out of this mindset and invite them to my house for goodies and also hope that they forgive me for not wishing them Id.

As you said Tolerance and Education can and will change things.

Posted by 777xxx777 | Report as abusive

777xxx777,

I was aware that you did not say that Islam is in way of birth control.

Overall, I see that we are on the same page on most issues. It boils down to common sense. We should remember that moderates may be large in #s but their voice is always low and remains unnoticed.

I hope you grab the first opportunity to participate in the festivities like you did before. Hindu friends of mine celebrate Eid with me and I still have lingering taste of Modak from Ganesh Chaturthi few days ago at my Hindu friend’s place.

I hope an wish that it gets back to celebrating Eid during the day and Diwali in the night.

Posted by rehmat | Report as abusive

“I hope an wish that it gets back to celebrating Eid during the day and Diwali in the night”

Thank You very much and Id Mubarak (ofcourse a bit late).

Meanwhile I have asked you a question in one of the other articles. Could you please respond in that article. Its about relevance of democracy in India and Pakistan.

Posted by 007XXX | Report as abusive

sorry, i was away from town during my free time. I guess I have mentioned it before, please make use of common sense, logic maths ang phisophy if you will to express your views, and for heaven’s sake not emotions and outburss. Both India and Pakistan are developing nations, in their own leaders views and therefore they are not as yet NATIONS. Indian and Pakistan leaders do not and have never fully represented their peoples views. India has the greater potential to become a great Nation, but they are not prepared to change their machiavi…. and tight lipped diplomatic teachings deeply culturted in their mentality. Pakistan is in a worst situation and have done no more than what they have been capable of, pride above all, suppressing their own citizens well anchored in establessed provinces with unique culture and embraced with a single religion of Islam, i.e PEACE, not war biggotry and phobia. They were disappointed unsettled, unnerved not because a german journalist mentions the historical fact, but because of the reaction of the hindu population in India, immediately after the creation of two countries from historically many and under the colonialism, one country. The new Pakistani leaders did not know how to tackle the onslaught of Hindus, I deliberately say HINDUS and not Sikhs, who lost a lot in now Pakistan and eventually in India, against the muslims living in the new Indian part of the land, forcing millions of muslims to flee towards Pakistan and reluctantly the departure of many Hindus and sikhs living previously in Pakistan provinces. Are you guys not aware of the fact that most of the muslim migrants so called muhajirs had to sleep on major city street footpaths at night for several years after the partition and despite occupying higher positions are still not fully integrated in the country, simply because of the number, the language ang and the culture. Not every one was jinnah or liaqat to take over the helms of the newly formed country, simply because it was their noble idea to find a separate homeland for the muslims. Suddenly over night the muslims of India became jews looking for a promised land of Pakistan. If you guys do not accept these facts then you are deliberately making doubtful proposals for reconciliation.
The so called democratically elected leaders have tried all acts in accordance with their talents- what they have not done is to start a deconisation process in their land, nationalising their armies and civilian institutions. For manmohan singh and Gillanis of of today is much more difficult than the the jinah and Nahrus of yesterday. There were never any blue prints available for such a plan, the idea was a some kind of a joke just to take over the administration from the Brirs and every thing was to carry on as previously. The facts are also that ever since the leaders have been trying to suppress the very people on whose behalf they took over the administration. I say simply that both Pakistani and Indian people have undergone a great suffering and more is to follow. Hanging on to Kashmiriris is unlikely to provide stability in the rest of India, sooner or later India is likely to break apart in States without any viable central Govt., unless the central Govt. takes certain steps for decolonisation. For Pakistan, I said they should not accept any elms from India simply because of at least keeping their pride, for this is the only thing they have got left. It is impossible to develop a Nation without a PRIDE.
I must admit that by nature I am a pessimist and seldom forsee a miracle from idiosities, but this time I hope that I am proven wrong.
Rex Mior

Posted by pakistan | Report as abusive

I have seen many Head of States and Government but have never seen any that gives financial aid to a neighboring country because of neighbor’s difficult days and makes a condition on it that it is given as a price for peace so that the neighbor on question of prestige do not touch the money.

I do not think any sane person would appreciate such demeaning attitude and gesture from a big or a small neighboring country. It amply proves beyond any shadow of doubt that the nation with such demeaning cultural heritage has yet not been able to raise itself up from the dust it used to sleep during the colonial days.

Recently a foreigner who visited India told a story that a friend invited him to his house and offered him half-sweet meat (Rasgula) and said you must eat the full Rasgula.

The foreigner said that how can a person offer a half-sweet meat and ask to eat full we all laughed. So the case of the 5 million is also one of the meanest thing have heard given as an aid asking it as a payment for peace.

I suppose the emerging economical animal (give any name) forgets that peace is not a commodity to be sold and purchased in the market.

Being cautious of the Indian emerging animal that made the greatest mistake in its offer 5 million with condition on which the world community has taken a very deem view of the Indian nation’s cultural meanness..

Posted by KINGFISHER | Report as abusive