Rumours of “regime change” choke Pakistani airwaves

September 20, 2010

PAKISTAN-FLOODS/

Few in Pakistan believe that the army is going to make a grab for power at this time, but it hasn’t stopped speculation over the fate of the civilian government, widely seen to have to failed to mount an effective response to the nation’s worst floods since its creation. 

The powerful military which is fighting a full-blown insurgency by Islamist militants linked to al Qaeda has raised its standing in the eyes of Pakistanis by spearheading relief efforts. It is unlikely to exploit the vulnerability of the weak civilian government led by President Asif Ali Zardari to itself get bogged down in Pakistan’s enormous problems by staging a coup. 

But rumours abound that the military, which ruled the country for better part of its 63 years as a nation, and has always exerted vital influence over state affairs such as security and foreign policy, is weighing its options to “save the nation”  through an indirect intervention, the weekly Friday Times wrote in its latest edition.

Some conspiracy theories suggest the present government could be toppled by causing dissentions in the ruling Pakistan People’s Party and a new government made up of turncoats and smaller parties could be installed. Others say a new government comprising “technocrats” could be appointed by getting the present regime disqualified from the increasingly assertive Supreme Court on charges of ineptness and massive corruption.

Rumours of change in the government were set into motion last month after a coalition partner of Zardari and self-exiled head of the Muttahida Qaumi Movement, Altaf Hussain, called on “patriotic generals” to take revolutionary steps against corrupt politicians.

Nawaz Sharif, former prime minister and main opposition leader, strongly opposed Hussain’s suggestion but recently said a “change” could be brought out through constitutional means if the present government did not rectify its wrongdoings.

Rumours of “regime change” are so strong  that even the soft-spoken Prime Minister Yusuf Raza Gilani , who is also vice chairman of the ruling Pakistan People’s Party (PPP) headed by Zardari, had to address “change-mongers: at a public function.

“PM warns against cornering PPP government,” read the main headline of daily The News on Sunday.

Speaking to businessmen in the eastern city of Lahore on Saturday evening, Gilani said “any unconstitutional act against the democratically elected government will be tantamount to hatching a conspiracy against the federation.”

“The largest party of the federation should not be cornered. We are committed to safeguarding the constitution,” he said.

Gilani’s remarks came a day after Zardari ruled out any “abrupt change” of government at a high-level meeting of the ruling party.

“Water cannot flow over us and we know how to defend our democratic position that we have earned through long struggle and invaluable sacrifices,” daily The Nation quoted Zardari as telling the meeting.

“Those who are talking about technocratic setup were perhaps living in a fool’s paradise as they do not know the PPP.”

At a time when the United States needs its ally’s crucial help to stabilize Afghanistan ahead of its planned troops withdrawal from next year,  any political turmoil in Pakistan would be cause of a major concern for Washington.

“Are you concerned about political situation in Pakistan,” was the question posed to Richard Haolbrooke, U.S. Special Envoy for Afghanistan and Pakistan, during a roundtable with journalists in Islamabad last week. 

Holbrooke said he would not speculate on things which he had no answer as “it’s journalists who focus on this issue and to some extent create this issue”.

“This is a democracy now with a very strong military, with tremendous number of problems that you all aware of and we are going to do whatever we can to help them.”

The News quoted him as saying that Zardari’s government was not “drowning in the floods”.

The Dawn newspaper in a recent editorial said media should be partly blamed for triggering the debate of “vague change” in the country.

“For a country that has flirted with and embraced military interventions so many times in the past, only for these to inevitably lead to disastrous consequences, the media’s sometimes barely concealed cheerleading for extra-constitutional measures is astonishing,” the paper said.

64 comments

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let mr be the first to make the prognosis, richard holbrooke can’t.
Pakistan military is not a national army and besides are currently working in the country in line with the orders they receive from the USA administration. Therefore, they are in no position to topple the civilian Govt. which for better or worse has the support of the USA. The most appropriate course for the country would be to form a national central govt., the peoples party bogey is now very weak, the performance of the pp President and the gillani govt. is below the standard of any previous Govt. If this course is not followed, sooner than later the so called talaban pressure in various parts of the country could break down the funtioning of the Govt. and the technocrats could walk out of their domain, thereby paralysing the remaining infra structure of the country.
Rex Minor l

Posted by pakistan | Report as abusive

@Rex

“The most appropriate course for the country would be to form a national central govt”

1. What is so called National Govt ? (yes yes go on repeat ur not-a-nation theory)
2. How do you propose that such a so called national govt, which in your personal opinion is better than any other in country that has history like that of Pakistan, can be put in place when half of country’s population is drowning in floods?
3. Why are you worried if Taliban takes over Pakistan. They are after all pious STUDENTS of Islam who implement the law of Allah itself. And no one knows of their innocence better than you as it seems u have some sort of PhD in Taliban culture. In one of the blogs u defended Talibs saying that,” they are the most innocent and cannot be cruel to women. Leave their land and let them live in peace.” So why not let taliban take over pakistan. All live in Sharia, no democracy, only theocracy, let the rule of Allah be followed. Tell me why u said, “sooner than later the so called talaban pressure in various parts of the country could break down the funtioning of the Govt.” ? You shud be happy about it. Taliban all around Pakistan with strict Sharia. Thats what even pakistanis seem to want…what say Umair?

And then let there be bombardment all around the world that does not accept Sharia. Kill the Jew, Kill the Christian, Kill the Hindu, Kill the Chinese, Kill the russian, Kill American, Kill German, Kill French, Kill NATO, Kill Kill Kill. Bombs everywhere. WOW what a great future!!!! Rex u were right the Taliban is very innocent.

And I am eagerly waiting for your not-a-nation theory.

Posted by 777xxx777 | Report as abusive

Pakistan’s military does not want to take over right now. It cannot manage any crisis. It is easier to let someone else handle that and get burnt. If the military took over, it will face the same problems and it cannot solve any of it. It will do what it knows best to deflect the attention away – create a conflict or engage in an existing conflict. That’s all Pakistan’s military has done all these years. Pakistan has waged wars every time its military has been in power. War is the only thing it knows and even there it does not have capacity to win. Pakistan’s current crisis situation is a symptom of degeneration from within. Nothing can fix it. They are better of the way they are right now – just dance around and do nothing. People will take care of themselves.

Posted by KPSingh01 | Report as abusive

“Water cannot flow over us …” daily The Nation quoted Zardari as telling the meeting.

Unfortunate choice of words.

Posted by trickey | Report as abusive

Funny… I thought in so many years Pakistani people would have gotten used to Army Rule and it wouldn’t make any difference to them whoever comes to Islamabad. It would sound strange if people worried about republicans coming to power after democrats or vice versa. Army is just like any other ruler there and when they come to power, they politely ask the previous rulers to go into exile or hiding. Unlike Taliban or other shariaists, who hang the previous rulers from traffic signals in accordance with their religious book of law. That is what is giving Karzai sleepless nights these days

Posted by Windturner | Report as abusive

@777
you can add as many 7′s you like as your name, but I get the impression that your bitterness is very deep, try to knock it off, it is going to hurt you. There is a hell of a difference between a Nation and National. Since the floods affect the whole people living in the land, then, it would be appropriate to form a central Govt. from all political parties and not insist on retaining the Govt. which came into being with the so called majority votes.
Your commentry about talibans, Whatever I have stated earlier I stand to my opinion. No civilian or military Govt. in Pakistan can exist without the approvals of so called Talibans. My prognosis is on track, no deviation though I wish that my forecast is an error. The population of Pakistan has seen the result of Pakistan military intrusion in Swat, followed by Waziristan. The flood onslaught in swat went right through Pakistan mainland. Did we not witness the support of Pakistan civilian population for the army actions against the Pashtoon heartland and have you not yet witness the Pashtoons vengence in the heartland of Mr Zardari. Even the USA administration have removed the names of the leaders of the main Taliban movement in Afghanistan. Are the so called talibans ready today to negotiate with the USA, the foreigners. No sir I have not done any PHD’s, a simple and straight forward common sense. Your comments about killing is very sick and full of propaganda.Most probably influenced about the biased media. How soon you guys have forgotten the millions who lost life in Iraq, and Palestine, and was it not the intelligent Bill clinton who sent T missiles to knock out Taliban leaders in Afghaniistan, as if according to one senator was trying to shoot down spuds. Well there are always consequences. For every act there are going to be cosqequeces or do you genuinely believe that the Indian military atrocities against its own so called citizens kashmiris. Time is the commodity no one can forecast accurately or puchase in the stock market. Have we not seen sept.11? Have we not seen Mr Hussain taking over as the President of the USA- after another Hussain being knocked out by George W? When is the new moses in the white House going to declare that he is a muslim from avery poor family in Kenya and is emotionaly and ethnically part of the today’s suffering muslim world? It did take many many years for the first Moses to accept the reality and leave the House of despot Pharaow.
Let us be fair and do not present criminal empire builders as innocents and the poor victims, resistance fighters as criminals and potential powers. Neither India nor Pakistan are Nations, they do not have common descent, language, perhaps some common history and institutions, but these have shadows of colonial seeds. We have seen the demise of Jugoslavia and the Soviet Union? Why is it difficult to accept that India never was and still not a Nation. They want to project themselves as a Nation but have a bag of worms they need to get rid of, perhaps you should advise them, how? But this larifari of killings,
Have a nice day.
Rex Minor
power in many’s view one y

Posted by pakistan | Report as abusive

@RexMinor,

If India not a nation, Pakistan is not even a Kulfi stand, my friend.

While it is true, India had many princely states, the people of all of those states had a a colourful plethora of cultural and religious union, in other words, they were not exactly alike in language or any matter necessarily, but for the most part they were not so different that they did not get along either.

For you to just delegitimize India as ever being a nation, is just as easily for me to say that Islam is not a nation either, but all muslims declare Islam to be a nation, so why can’t India be nation, it started of thousands of years before Islam.

Who are you to casually write off India as a non-nation? to do so, is to believe that Pakistan should not even exist.

Please pull your attitude and your head out of the dark crevices on your body.

Posted by G-W | Report as abusive

Rex,

One more thing, true freedom fighters become educated, are sublime and sophisticated in character.

Throwing bricks at an armed national force does not make you into a freedom, fighter, but lowers your own bar and delegitimize the cause that they claim to fight.

Criminal behavior does not earn one freedom. True freedom takes education, patience, hardwork and above all, intelligence and brains.

Quit blaming all troubles on outsiders. People have to learn to start channeling their anger in a more constructive way, rather than throwing bricks and rocks.

Posted by G-W | Report as abusive

Pakistan:

I am trying very hard to understand your posts. One thing which I noticed is that you tend to given impression that you are a supporter of Taliban. In my view you are giving your insights that Taliban are hard to control by anyone and deserve to rule in their homelands and Taliban are so powerful that even the West is bending backwards to make compromises with them. Tell me if I am wrong that you are saying USA/NATO in Afghanistan and Pakistan Army in Swat were RIGHTLY opposed by Taliban. Did you favor late Abdul Gaffar Khan who was tortured by PA for asking a separate land for Pushtoons? Talibans ask the same except they are using AK-47 and swords. I derive that from your common descent and one language as a marker of a nation concept. Further do you suggest the merger of pushtoon land on either side of Durrand line? How many pieces would it take for India to arrive at common descent and language? Would it still be enough? Isn;t it time to pause and revisit the concept of what a nation is than fitting nations according to the rigid definitions (if there are)?

Then how can you justify migration of population from South Asia and Middle East contaminating Caucasian rich Europe? Increasing diversity (if you are in the West, you are contributing yourself) should be a cause of concern for you. On top of that you claim that Obama is a Muslim. I am not arguing whether he is or not. Assuming he is a Muslim from Kenyan father, that should be sign of trouble than a reason for celebration. Although I would agree with ex-Secretary of State Colin Powell that “…..what if he is Muslim? Is there something wrong with being a Muslim in this country?” I guess according to you there is something wrong about it. How else would you justify single descent concept?

My common sense says it does not matter what was the religion of Obama’s kenyan dad, what matters (if at all it does) is what Obama and his family practicing? Religion is environmental not genetic.

Posted by rehmat | Report as abusive

A regime change at this point in time will be a big mistake. A country surrounded by so many problems cannot afford a regime change at this point in time.

Posted by SZaman88 | Report as abusive

@Rehmat,

RexMinor’s opinion is quite odd indeed. He seems to be a proponent of legitimizing the Taliban, a retrograde,uncompromising backwards creed that has been around maybe 10-15 years.

In the same breath he utters that India was never a nation of any kind, despite the fact that Indian peoples have originated from the subcontinent for nearly 7,500 years.

It is quite amusing to see Islamists like Rex just casually brush away 7,500 years of civilization, while they extoll the virtues of Pakistan being around since the dawn of time and seek to legitimize the Taliban.

I sometimes think something in the water is making Pakistani’s mentally retxrded or pxychologically dxranged.

This unwavering affliction of wanting to delegitimize all that is non-muslim is deeply disturbing and will lead to continued civilizational jousting and at the end of the day through a series of actions brings wars between muslims and non-muslims.

The best solution is to submit to the will of democracy, modernize, moderate and learn to question.

When one questions the clerical institutions, and question them like the inquisition, the mental prison keeping people down and keeping them ignorant will come off and they will see that their potential is so much more in spirit and being, in this life, than they are told. Preconceived notions will be cast away.

The Taliban are just another instrument of ignorance and backwardness. The people are not happy living this way, only some men are.

Posted by G-W | Report as abusive

Gentlemen, It would appear that many of you are confused with my comments. I was simply proposing that the govt. of Mr gillani and co should include many more ministers from the other political parties in order to tackle the God given problems that the country is now facing. The current ministers as well as their President are a bunch of idiots who do not know how much damage was caused by the flood which is going to paralise the entire countriy for the next at least twenty years. Let me try also again to simplify my views and other comments. I do not intend to belittle India or for that matter Pakistan. The oxford dictionary of english language should explain the definition of a Nation. If you believe that the two countries somehow fit into the definition then your assumption of giving them the status of a Nation is perfectly legitimised. You could ofcourse suggest to the publisher to expand the definition to accomodate your countries. In my view they are developing to become Nations and that process is not yet complete. To suppress a large number of citizens by the military force simply means that both countries are occupiers.
The so called Taliban movement was a very short episode in the history of Afghanistan which was over as soon as the 5th columnists withdrew and the Pashtoons asserted their hold in the entire land. The 5th columnists later facilitated the USA military invasion and ever since the foreigners are having their adventure in the holy land of Pashtoons. Pakistan military took the side of the greater power ignoring the fact that it was on account of Pashtoons that Pakistan came into being. The only province which fully supported the creation of Pakistan ignoring the most popular congress party and its leader Ghafar Khan. He was the opponent of Pakistan and was a very popular leader among Pashtoons. Pakistan Army has not tortured him. Any reasonably educated person familiar with history of Pashtoons would know that no foreign power have ever ruled these people and their vengence is carried forward over generations. Is it therefore difficult for me to forecast the defeat of the USA marines and the Nato armada? You guys are all betting on the looser. Was it a surprise that the four star General left, and do you believe that a jewish General suffering from cancer is going to succeed where others before him made the exit or went to sleep for ever in the deep valleys of the land. Mr Patreos has given another title to Pasdhtoons, the enemy? Come on let us not play games with the name Nation. India could follow the path of the Americans and start worshipping the Flag and raise the slogan every now and then God bless the USA. The USA is a multi cultured land of immigrants all loyal to the constitution, keeping their religions, culture and keeping officialy the americanised english language. Is this what India is aiming at, then at least create a National Army which would protect the land from the foreign enemy. If the Chinese cross over into Kashmir, the likelyhood of Kashmiris resisting their advance would be unthinkable.I cannot even imagine a large force of muslms living in India prepared to battle against the enemy as well.
@Rahmat
you have asked too many questions. The migration of non europeans into europe is not without problems, particularly when the people are reluctant to integrate into the communities and try to hang on to their traditions and culture. There is a resistance from the natives against multi cultured societies.
You are also using the label of Taliban for resistance. They are Pashtoons and not Talibans, the students, who are oppsing the USA and NATO forces as well those who oppose the intrusion of the military into Swat and the Waziri territory. The Pashtoons or Ghafar khan for that matter have never asked for a separate home land, they have a separate homeland. India does not need a single language for Nation building, Switzerland has several official languages and practically no army to suppress each other. The population in India needs to be cohisive, loyal to the constitution. The Army needs to be a national army(same applies to Pakistan)and relinquish their colonial stature, the use of Sikh soldiers against the Sikh nation was nothing but the repeat of the colonial days, similarly the use of of Frontier Force made up of Pashtoon tribes against the Pashtoons in Swat and Waziristan illustrates the level of colonial army practices still kow towed by both Armies in the sub-continent.
By the way some one mentioned about Islam as a nation.
@GW
in my opinion Islam is not a NATION, it is the Ibrahim religion, which Moses brought with ten commandments and Jesus expanded it and Mohammad, Peace be upon all of them clarified it. The three were massengers of God. Islam is not a new religion, perhaps karen Armstrong book on ‘God’ could throw some light on this subject. Though shall not kill is the commandment, perhaps I should be allowed to ask how many millions have been killed by the USA during the 20th century? Any guess? May be the pentagon knows about it?
Have a nice day!
Rex Minor

Posted by pakistan | Report as abusive

Myra “Rumours of “regime change” choke Pakistani airwaves”

***Military calls the shots in critical areas of foreign policy, and they have ample public support for their actions. I do not foresee a regime change
in Pakistan. It would not make a difference anyway to the problems. Did it ever?
++++++++++++++

Pakistan

What makes Pushtoon land “a holy land”?. Sounds good though. Is it blowing away the signs of anything the “students” dislike such as Budhha statues and Sufi Shrine in Afghanistan and Pushtunkhwa. You don’t have to stress “students” for Taliban, no one lables itself bad. I am not arguing with you Taliban vs Pushtoon discussion. Look at the meaning of any terrorist organization–the army of Mohammad (pbuh), soldiers of Mohammad (pbuh). That the USA is a terrorist (killing innocents in Iraq) does not make these terrorists saints.

You are confused about your “nation” ideology. You are challenging that diversity in India does not allow nation building but diversity is not a problem for the USA as a nation. Then there must be something more to it, isn’t it?

“If the Chinese cross over into Kashmir, the likelyhood of Kashmiris resisting their advance would be unthinkable.I cannot even imagine a large force of muslms living in India prepared to battle against the enemy as well.”
***There is historical evidence that Kashmiris opposed Pakistan’s Op Gibraltar in 1965 and a Muslim Havladar Abdul Hamid was decorated with PVC for laying his life. let us not make it Muslim vs ABC issue. Enough of that, PLEASE!

It is not a Sikh againt a Sikh case like you mentioned. Think it as a case of a soldier (who happened to be Sikh) against a terrorist (which happens to be Sikh). Little knowledge can be dangerous if you do not know that Sikh police officers volunteered to act against Sikh militancy since common culture is seen as an advantage. Policeman and a terrist have no religion when they are in the field.

“India does not need a single language for Nation building, Switzerland has several official languages and practically no army to suppress each other.”
but you also say “Neither India nor Pakistan are Nations, they do not have common descent, language, perhaps some ……” why so?

While not having a “common descent” works for the USA according to you, it does not for India and Pakistan. Why so? Isn;t it about enforcement of the constitution in the case of India like they do in the USA.

I can tell you one thing. you can never purify a population based on any single criterion. With time other differences appear or the existing ones become more obvious NOW. Example: Pakistan born based on single religion. There is historical evidence that Islam as religion was not sufficient. Shia Sunni Ahmediya ethnic and sectarian differences showed up. Unsatisfied population led to Bangladesh. Pushtoons ask for Pukhtoonkhwa. Pushtoons and Bengalis and Punjabis in Pakistan are very different.

Islam is not enough to keep population together. Same will be true for any other religion. Co-existence is the recipe. Enforce the constitution and rule of law. Else, suffer!

Posted by rehmat | Report as abusive

@Rex

No Sir it is not bitterness but a deep insight on history of the land that I live in.

My best guess is that you are European. I say so because most of Europeans are extremely reluctant to cultural diversity. And English being a European language define Nation as a land of one culture and no diversity. Thats why Americans have American English. And we in India use several languages and I know of Hindi and it says “Rashtra” meaning a land of a set of people willing to live together and share its resources and in Pakistan it is as called in Urdu a “Mulk” (anyone knowing Urdu here please correct me if I am wrong) meaning almost same as Rashtra. So we really dont care about Oxford Dictionary. I won’t comment about Pakistan but India is definitely a “Rashtra”. And u not being able to view a country with cultural diversity is because of u probably being a European. It is a well known fact how well immigrants are treated in Europe. France banning Burqa is a glaring example of that. So u see the world from your lenses but that may not always be accurate. So it is better that u visualize things from other person’s perspective instead of just putting forth fullish comments.

In India people (except in Kashmir) are not only happy but extremely proud with its cultural diversity. And trouble is not diversity, trouble is exploding population. It is but natural for fights to get fiercer when demands are excessively larger than supplies. And history tells us that when capitalism gets mixed with corruption always leads to communism aka TROUBLE. So again problem is not diversity but governance.

As for taliban and afganistan i dont care who rules or who not. All i care is that what kind of rulers in Afghanistan are good for India and what are bad for us. And I have every right to think of my Rashtra’s security and integrity. And taliban as we all know is not in interest of India’s security because of their Muslim vs everyone else stand and breeding people in their land who throw bombs on someone for not being an Islamic nation. What did they achieve in killing every non-muslim? (It is very very true that every non-muslim is treated by taliban as there-to-be-butchered). It is only your ASSUMPTION that they cannot be so cruel but I would like people from Pakistan to comment on the “Kill every non-muslim” (or even kill that muslim that does not follow their interpretation of Islam) (it is very true) theory of taliban. And demolishing buddha statues was no biased media. What vengeance did they achieve in that? What is the vengeance in killing non-muslims? U probably have never witnessed a bombing in ur lifetime with ur own eyes for making such ignorant statements. How and why should I not discuss Taliban when they are not good for my people. So that should put all arguments to rest.

And as for biased media it is you (Europeans) who come to know of India/Pakistan/Afghanistan through media whereas we learn of our respective countries through our experiences. I have travelled most part of India and let me tell you that diversity is not the problem it is the corruption and over population.

And as for military, it has officers from all sections of society and I know this because a few guys in my own family are in Indian Military service so it is not media again. And your notion of Indian military not being national is based on media. So u decide urself that who is letting himself being misled by biased media.

And I agree with Rehmat, Enforce rule of Law but law should be such as to encourage co-existence unlike European laws that blindly follow Oxford.

Posted by 777xxx777 | Report as abusive

Rumours of threats to the PPP-led government have been in the air for
quite some time now but recent events suggest that these may just be
some people’s pipe dreams. In Pakistan it is said that no change can
occur outside the democratic process without the army agreeing to such
change. The army and the US at the present conjuncture appear to be on
the same page as far as the democratically elected government is
concerned. In his recent visit, US special envoy for Pakistan and
Afghanistan Richard Holbrooke said that the government is not
‘drowning’ and that it is doing a good job under the circumstances.
The army too is aware of the ground realities and has its hands full
with fighting the terrorists on Pakistani soil and carrying out the
flood relief efforts. No other government, including a dictator’s
regime, took ownership of the war on terror like the PPP-led
government has done. We can see that the normal concatenation of
forces, i.e. the US and the army, are not inclined towards any change
in the near future so we must avoid playing a chess game. The dreamers
of changer are just interested to enter in corridores of power if they
were sincere for any sort of change where they spent last 63 years?

Posted by sadiarzv | Report as abusive

@Rehmat, 777
Let me agree to your explanations and interpretations. Perhaps my comments have confused the subject.I do not deny the events that you describe but please do not allocate these to the so called Talibans. Believe me it is a bogey which the USA has been using and even now after Bob woodward’s book preview the great Obama referred to this name in his speech to the UNO. Did you observe the applause from the general assembly?
@Rehmat, please read the origin and the history of Pashtoons made of many ancient tribes who converted to Islam.
Let us revert to the original subject.
Rex Minor

Posted by pakistan | Report as abusive

Pakistan:

“Rehmat, please read the origin and the history of Pashtoons made of many ancient tribes who converted to Islam.”
***Thanks for your suggestion. But that does not help the discussion at hand. I do know about Buddhism in the area, Pushtoon tribes, their conversion to Islam, Sikhs occasionally invading the Pushtoon land much when they ruled Punjab. For Pushtoon/Taliban account and their contributions towards “the holy Pushtoon land” we need to review last 15-30yrs, not much further back.
I would rather much appreciate you directly chatting about the “holy land” and “the students”, Taliban destruction of Budha statues in Afghanistan, Sufi Shrines in Pakistan, beheading Sikhs for Zizya in Pukhtunkhwa for being non-Muslims or killing the moderate Islam symbols (Sufi shrines) , blowing away women/kids in Peshawar market and girls schools. None of these are incidents of killing invaders or anything foreign.

you said “please do not allocate these (incidents) to the so called Talibans.”. Taliban disagree with you. They take responsibility for the bombings, so the US bogey as explanation does not work here. Can Budha statues in Afghanistan incident also be attributed to the US. How much would you blame on the USA. Is Pakistan press also misled? This is not tantamount to approving the US killing millions this century. I do not see how Bob Woodward on Obama addresses that, perhaps you know.
It is interesting to note that you do not like action of a country’s force against certain militants belonging to certain locals population. In one case you call it “Pakistan military INTRUSION” in Waziristan and Swat (I guess mostly non-pushtoon Army vs Pushtoon Talibans and others). In the other case [killing your own], you criticize “Sikhs against Sikh nation”. You call this as “Sikh nation” when it is not. In any case, Punjab has ~60% Sikhs so majority of police force is Sikh and they are overrepresented in Indian Army and are called in tough situations. Read up more on it.

“Let us revert to the original subject.”
*** A good idea! In the context of “regime change”, may be Pakistan can use your idea of multiparty political system representing different regions (NOT THE MAJORITY VOTE BASED). That cannot be worse than a military takeover any day. Would military give its blessings to such system?

++++++++++++

G-W
Pakistan’s (Rex Minor) version of Taliban is his opinion and he is entitled to that. I wish I could know more about “why” he thinks of “what” he thinks.

Posted by rehmat | Report as abusive

Regime change and constitution redrafting experiments have been done time and again by different rulers in Pakistan but nothing has changed. As they say “Power Corrupts”. So even if you have so called national government I don’t think it is going to change anything. Majority votes is a good enough system and created so that most people get represented.

In India first people SELL their votes at time of election by taking NOTES (currency notes) (famously called Vote for Note phenomenon in India) then afterwards blame government for everything. If voters do not realise the importance of the power that democracy gives them then they are themselves to blame. But this is a process that needs time to mature. First people will make mistakes, generations get beaten up and then they realise the true value of democracy and MAJORITY starts voting for good. Best example of that is Bihar state in India.

In case of pakistan it seems a bit more easier as religious provocation is enough to get votes. So in the end those people drowning in floods are down the line somewhere themselves to blame for being blinded by anti-India, anti-non-muslim rage and letting themselves fooled in name of religion and eventually voting corrupt politicians to parliament. So even if regime changes the condition of people will not change and common pakistanis have no one else but themselves to blame.

Posted by 777xxx777 | Report as abusive

@Rehmat
“Pakistan’s (Rex Minor) version of Taliban is his opinion and he is entitled to that. I wish I could know more about “why” he thinks of “what” he thinks”

Only 1 explanation comes to my mind although bizarre but it can be that he is on payroll of may be Taliban, PA or ISI (highly likely). And obviously Rex will find and mark this post as offensive.

Posted by 777xxx777 | Report as abusive

@gentlemen,
Try to think sometimes philosophically, this could help you even gain the PHD title.
Time is very precious, some act for their time and pass the buck to the next and some visionary people think of their children and grandchildren and the coming generation. Democracy does not automatically unite people of different origins and different cultures but simply enable them to participate in their day to day affairs, unless a particular group is suppressed by the military force. The forced democracy is a red line and history tells us that other s have failed in this effort. Infact we have learnt that democracy eventually separates people of different cultures unless other ingradients of society are in place to unite the people. Example; The country we know as mother of modern democracy is falling apart, the scottish people want to leave the union even though they now have independent parliment and also participate in the British parliment. This is democracy and any country following the footsteps of the british parliamentry democracy should be aware of the breakdown of the country they so aspire to exist as a single unit.
Nothing remains static and therefore I am not going to choose the period of your choice. I was asked why do I consider the Pashtoon land as the holy land and the answer lies in the history when the Pashtoons converted to Islam.
@777
I do not consider your remarks being offensive, but do note your bitterness, somehow you have been infected with the names Taliban, PA or ISI and this is very sadf, unless you overcome your fear of these entities and clean up your intellect disc. Even the great Obama could not avoid mentioning the Talibans in his speech to the UNO. Well, he got the response from the Iranian President who introduced a new line of USA being involved in self affliction on sept. 11. We have witnessed the show, the USA delegation walked out despite the commitment from their President that they are ready for a dialogue with the Iranians. The USA does not want a dialogue but a dictate which the Iranians have to accept. The world has seen a farce of the american diplomacy. But this is another subject.
One does not need a regime change in Pakistan at this hour but definitely requires the inclusion of other parties in the Govt., in accordance with the percent of votes they obtained in the last election. Is Gillani capable of this and able to remove some of bad performane ministers from his cbinet? Even Mr Obama kept the republican secretary of defence fully aware that the democrats were reluctant to continue with the George W war, with the exception of kissinger pupils.
The purpose of the asymetric wars is to create fear and this should be the explanation for all violent acts now being committed across the world. In Afghanistan and Pakistan the label “Taliban” is being used to claim the responsibility for the kidnaps andbombings and in North Africa the name Al Quaeda is beiong used for resistance and the criminal acts. All other petty criminals and gangs have taken a mask of these labels provided free of charge by no one other than the CIA and readers like you. Investigate deep into it and the bogey disappears in the wind. These denials are seldom published or followed by the readers. How come the Taliban did not knock off Mr Musharaf instead of Miss Bhutto? The whole of Afghanistan and Pakistan is a wide territory open now for all different groups from the world who are now participating in a war against the USA and the NATO. Without the infra structure of Pakistan the USA and its allies would have long accepted the defeat on the battle ground. The Pashtoons tribes are making millions by taking money for the free passage and if there is no payment the convoy is attacked and desrtroyed. This is the game of Pashtoons, they played against the Brits and now against the USA and the NATO. O’K the CIA have in the meantime have got their own so called counter terrorist force made up of Pashtoons. Mr K Singh on this forum knows the history of the Pashtoons and their war games strategy, though I disagree with his opinion that the Pashtoons could have been defeated if the Brits had more time. One hundred years of struggle and two afghan wars were not enough to defeat them.
Rex Minor

Posted by pakistan | Report as abusive

@Rex

U did not read correctly i said it is a bizarre statement on my part. Hence from the word go it was meant to be a satire on ur insistence on your supposed purity of Taliban. Or may be the satire was too Indian for u to understand. But yes your bitterness towards democracy and USA is more than evident. And what is holy in Pashtoons converting to Islam. U r saying Islam is best and rest are worst? What you are evidently saying is that let pashtoons do what they want to do even if that means letting “criminals” stay on their land and crashing airplane in financial towers around the world? Because Ahmedinejad says its USA itself, so its true? Bin Laden according to you is a US bogey…correct? Mullah Omar ordering demolition of Buddha Statues is a bogey? ISI openly helping anti-India criminals on their Pak soil is a bogey? PA lead by general Musharraf pre-empting strike on Indian soil in Kargil is a bogey? U assume everything democracy and Capitalism does is bogey and everything Islam does is pure. U r really living in a fool’s world. And are very insensitive to problems faced by any one other than muslims. It is people like you are the ones who are defaming Islam.

You have read history of Afghanistan for only 100 years I say go back and read the history of 10000 years. Afghanistan was ruled for 150 years or so by Mauryan Empire of INDIA, first by one of the most cruel kings, King Ashoka and then by his grandson Sampriti. So ur assumption of pashtoons being unbeatable is false. No one is unbeatable. U seem to be over impressed with pashtoons. Pashtoons can be defeated if PA honestly wants to defeat them. And please do ur so called investigation and u will find it was not Taliban that knocked of Ms Bhutto, it was Musharraf himself who did so because Bhutto was ready to put Kashmir issue on backburner which would have undermined importance of PA inside pakistan and she had pretty good chances of winning as well, And this my friend is no assumption but a fact. And could be quite possible that actual killing might have been carried out by some taliban group but surely on orders from Musharaff.

And for Pakistan u do any experiment with government change, include, exclude, whatever things will not change. To really change ordinary Pakistanis need to put down their stand of “Kashmir banega Pakistan”. And start channelising their energy into improving their lives. As long as people like u exist who keep on telling “Islam is best and rest are worst”, things will never improve in Pakistan. This kind of hate filled and superiority imposing sentiments are fodder for corrupt politics. What can including all parties do if 99% are corrupt? Umair can you please confirm the corruption level of Pakistan parliament if u have any rough idea? In India it is around 99.997% or so; very rare to find an honest politician in India and same goes for Pakistan.

And as for Middle East, the day any one finds an alternative and viable source of energy to replace Petroleum, that day Middle East and probably most of the holy Islamic world will fall like peck of cards. That day muslims in India, Pakistan, China, Indonesia will find their lands to be best for them. Just wait and watch.

I only agree with u on that nothing remains static and that applies to Pashtoons and Pakistan as well along with everyone else u mentioned.

Posted by 777xxx777 | Report as abusive

@Rex

I do agree with u that USA is not good but i do not c much difference between ur stand and that of USA. USA says I am best and rest all are worst and U say Islam is best and everything else is worst. What’s the difference…Arrogance in attitude is same.

Respect is earned and not grabbed. And respect and knowledge are the only two things in world that can be attained by GIVING MORE and more. Unfortunately neither the USA guys and nor arrogant muslims like you understand this. (I assumed u being a muslim because u consider conversion to Islam from any other religion as holy.)

So here is a piece of advice start GIVING respect and u will be surprised with returns. U telling me that i am infected by PA and ISI was really in no good sense. Given the open truths which need not any propaganda by any third party. India and Pakistan had 4 wars till date with latest being Kargil and yet u say i shud remove PA and ISI from my intellect. Shame on u for being so insensitive to Indians for just not being “Holy” muslims. Rehmat could you please tell Rex that there are more muslims in India than in Pakistan, Afghanistan, Iran, Iraq, Palestine, etc. as India has second largest muslim population in world after Indonesia.

Same goes for people in Pakistan. Start GIVING respect and u will be surprised with returns. Refusing aid from India was a shameful act when so many people in Pakistan are drowning and dying. So drop ur hatred against India and start making friends and lets throw out people like Rex and move forward to build cordial relations and improve situations in our respective countries.

Posted by 777xxx777 | Report as abusive

@777
As a matter of fact I logged on to state that I have never denied the Nation status to Hindus, with one of the oldest civilisation, We were discussing the status of India as a Nation. Now I had to read your commentry most of which is spanish for me. But let me try on some points;
Islam is the religion of believers as christianity and judaism is the religion of christians and jews. I have no intention to glorify Islam to non believers nor Islam requires me to defend it. Let God almighty defend his commandments, human race were supposed to follow the commandments or disregard it. The day of the judgement and accountability is after death.
Though shall not kill, this is the commandment of God and according to John Hopkins institute one million Iraqis have lost their lives as a result of the USA invasion of Iraq. Only this week they executed an apparent retarded woman in Texas.

The cycle of violence in the Indian subcontinent is a tragedy of its own. The leaders of both countries have put themselves in the babylonian prison and they are unable to free themselves. I have mentioned several examples. Chechoslavakia was a single country under communism and after democracy the slavaks have separated from the checks and yet they are part of the European community. Indian leaders do not demonstrte any regard for the large number of its muslim citizens. Israel has now been given the special status in their foreign relation. Even you guys have mentioned on occasion deragotry remarks about muslims against jews. What a satire and irony, the entire europeans have time and again demonstrated anti semit before, during and after Hitler. Today the europeans and the USA is passive about Israel crimes against the Gazans and the USA wants to save the jewish status of the land. What says India, claiming to be a democratic country? Why should’nt Israel retain its democracy and live with the Palestinians. No, they are afraid to be drowned in the arab Land and the jewish status would be lost.
Kashmir is the concern of Kashmiris and not pakistan. The muslims throughout the world show their sympathy and support where possible and this is the teaching of Islam. The fact that most of the cteaching of christianity, Judaism and Islam are now incorporated in the Human Rights of the United Nations, the signifance of Islam has not diminished. Admittedly, in this global world not all the countries have reached an equal enlightnment through education, but they are alltrying. What surprises me is the Indian leader appears to have no solution for the problems in its claimed territory. Pakistan has time and again proved itself a complete disaster, with the exception of a large army and the weapontry to destroy the entire sub-continent and even reach european and american cities with its nuclier arsenal. On top of that the are infested with communal and religion divide within islam and on top of that a govt. of many fools put together hoping to perform a little better than the military elites.
Now you know about my views and I have a human sympathy with the sufferings if people and recognise the sensitivity of people like you on things that do not affect me or I am not aware of it. My interest at this point in time is that I believe that we are passing through a special time barrier which is going to determine the events of the world fo the next thousand years. For example we are witnessing the downfall of the american power and the rise of the Chinese one, and great turmoils in the rest of the world and unfortunately no messahia is in sight.
With regard to conflicts in your subcontinent I do not see a magical formulae for peace unless the people of the countries want peace. From your bitterness and the background of several wars that you mention it would seem that you guys have still the appetite for the next round.
By the way, the corruption is another bogey which the colonialists have implanted into the minds of the people of their ex colonies, The Bakhshish in India and Pakistan is called fukilaki and without this you are not even going to get a decent room in any european hotel. Mr Burlasconi is the billionair with the corruption and the Bona part got elected with the corrupt money. The last British Govt. was found cheating on the tax payer by claiming mone for flats which did not exist and claiming expenses for a very large television etc. etc. Even Gordon Brown the son of a priest showed his corrup side in expenses. The opposition MPs were also not the exception and fully participated in the give aways.
Rex Minor
PS I would not give much credence to the Iranian President when he talks about the USA. He was simply trying to prove that the USA is not interested in a dialogue. The USA team walked out and this is not the sign of a dialogue. We can also have a dialogue, but you must stop your bitterness and do not give preconditions. Your interpretation of my statement is very faulty. Read my words and not insinuate what I meant. Personally I could not care less if the Pashtoons or the so called Talibans loose. They are muslims today not because of fun sake or someone forced them, they are muslims because they believe every thing good is Islam. You show them that you are also a fine human being and he would call you a muslim. This is the exerience of some of the NGO’s and doctors from Germany who went over to the Pashtoon land and tried to help the sick and old.

Posted by pakistan | Report as abusive

@777
PS
Sorry for the wrong spells.
Rex Minor

Posted by pakistan | Report as abusive

Pakistan”Even Gordon Brown the son of a priest showed his corrup side in expenses. ”
****This reminds me when there is a news about Bihar in the West, they mostly UNNECESSARILY, add “the poorest state in India”.

Posted by rehmat | Report as abusive

@Rex
U read Spanish commentary and gave such a huge long reply…WOW…your Spanish must be really good. :)

“Islam is the religion of believers as christianity and judaism is the religion of christians and jews. I have no intention to glorify Islam to non believers nor Islam requires me to defend it. Let God almighty defend his commandments, human race were supposed to follow the commandments or disregard it. The day of the judgement and accountability is after death.”

That is true for every religion and not only for Islam and commandments are not propriety of Islam. This kind of statements are what signify disrespect to other religions by Muslims (NOT Islam) and UNNECESSARILY defame Islam. Open your mind and look beyond without lenses of religion.

“I have never denied the Nation status to Hindus”

You are talking like one of those Indian Netas (politician) who are trying to instigate a mob for violence and rioting. Your choice of words and may be intentions as well are poor. No one here talked about Hindu nation. There is no Hindu nation and there never was. It is India that is nation or Rashtra as we call it. The process will take time may be another 100 years or so but we have been steadily improving and that is some achievement. And if to anyone else’s eyes India is not a nation then our advice is please wait and watch as the conditions are far more improved than what it was 50 years back. Process is slow but is in motion.

“Indian leaders do not demonstrte any regard for the large number of its muslim citizens”

As a matter of fact they demonstrate too much but do too little on ground zero. And even the muslim leaders here who were believed to be closer to community did nothing for the upliftment.

“you guys have still the appetite for the next round”

Please do not put India and Pakistan people in same bag. India had not pre-empted a war with Pakistan since the Bangladesh episode and its been more than 30 years since. India for very long has been wanting Pakistan to sign a peace deal and move on. So please remove that notion from your mind, instead India DOES NOT want to waste energy and resources on wars.

“By the way, the corruption is another bogey which the colonialists have implanted into the minds of the people of their ex colonies”

Power Corrupts. And that is true everywhere and there was corruption in India even before colonists came. So nothing that british invented corruption or so. Its everywhere from times immemorial. It is natural human tendency to accumulate more than what it can consume by any means given the opportunity. And combine that with poverty and financial insecurity and u will have a big menace on hands. Nothing new in it.

“The fact that most of the cteaching of christianity, Judaism and Islam are now incorporated in the Human Rights of the United Nations,”

I would say its your less knowledge about other religions or that Christianity and Islam are most followed, but all religions be it anyone teach us to be humane. So be it Christian, Judaism, Islam, Hinduism, Bhuddhism or any other the teachings are almost the same. Live and Let other live — Bhuddhism and Jainism. And this is what every religion says may be indirectly and in different languages. You must realise its not the religion it is the practice that gets corrupted over the years and be it hindus, muslims, christians, jews, or anyone else. I would advice you to read books of other faiths as well. I have read Bible, Quran, Hindu Vedas, Jainism and Buddhism texts, Sikh’s Guru Granth Sahib and found the commandments that u talked of are almost same in almost all the above text I mentioned. The basic is to give and get respect and show mercy to all along with preservation of mother nature.

“they are muslims because they believe every thing good is Islam.”

So does that mean every other religion represents everything bad? Your words are confusing again.
And Pashtoon loosing is not because of them being muslims. When will muslims learn that bad things happening to them is not because of their religion. Getting religion into every single sphere of life is very dangerous to co-existence.

And as for bogeys I will not say any word on Taliban so as not to hurt your sentiments but ISI and PA is not bogey, they are real and have been hurting India for quite long. Even if it is some criminals doing crimes using their names in their land then also it is their responsibility to stop these unlawful activities being done on their land against India if they seriously want cordial relations. The government and military of Pakistan are correctly blamed and responsible for unlawful activities emanating from their land and directed towards India.

And as for subject at hand-Regime problem in Pakistan. As are the people so are the governments. Till the time people in pakistan keep shouting “Kashmir banega Pakistan” they will keep electing ignorant morons to their parliament and will keep suffering. Indians are more than ready to join hands with Pakistan but are Pakistanis ready for it??

Posted by 777xxx777 | Report as abusive

@Rex
U read Spanish commentary and gave such a huge long reply…WOW…your Spanish must be really good. :)

“Islam is the religion of believers as christianity and judaism is the religion of christians and jews. I have no intention to glorify Islam to non believers nor Islam requires me to defend it. Let God almighty defend his commandments, human race were supposed to follow the commandments or disregard it. The day of the judgement and accountability is after death.”

That is true for every religion and not only for Islam and commandments are not propriety of Islam. This kind of statements are what signify disrespect to other religions by Muslims (NOT Islam) and UNNECESSARILY defame Islam. Open your mind and look beyond without lenses of religion.

“I have never denied the Nation status to Hindus”

You are talking like one of those Indian Netas (politician) who are trying to instigate a mob for violence and rioting. Your choice of words and may be intentions as well are poor. No one here talked about Hindu nation. There is no Hindu nation and there never was. It is India that is nation or Rashtra as we call it. The process will take time may be another 100 years or so but we have been steadily improving and that is some achievement. And if to anyone else’s eyes India is not a nation then our advice is please wait and watch as the conditions are far more improved than what it was 50 years back. Process is slow but is in motion.

“Indian leaders do not demonstrte any regard for the large number of its muslim citizens”

As a matter of fact they demonstrate too much but do too little on ground zero. And even the muslim leaders here who were believed to be closer to community did nothing for the upliftment.

“you guys have still the appetite for the next round”

Please do not put India and Pakistan people in same bag. India had not pre-empted a war with Pakistan since the Bangladesh episode and its been more than 30 years since. India for very long has been wanting Pakistan to sign a peace deal and move on. So please remove that notion from your mind, instead India DOES NOT want to waste energy and resources on wars.

“By the way, the corruption is another bogey which the colonialists have implanted into the minds of the people of their ex colonies”

Power Corrupts. And that is true everywhere and there was corruption in India even before colonists came. So nothing that british invented corruption or so. Its everywhere from times immemorial. It is natural human tendency to accumulate more than what it can consume by any means given the opportunity. And combine that with poverty and financial insecurity and u will have a big menace on hands. Nothing new in it.

“The fact that most of the cteaching of christianity, Judaism and Islam are now incorporated in the Human Rights of the United Nations,”

I would say its your less knowledge about other religions or that Christianity and Islam are most followed, but all religions be it anyone teach us to be humane. So be it Christian, Judaism, Islam, Hinduism, Bhuddhism or any other the teachings are almost the same. Live and Let other live — Bhuddhism and Jainism. And this is what every religion says may be indirectly and in different languages. You must realise its not the religion it is the practice that gets corrupted over the years and be it hindus, muslims, christians, jews, or anyone else. I would advice you to read books of other faiths as well. I have read Bible, Quran, Hindu Vedas, Jainism and Buddhism texts, Sikh’s Guru Granth Sahib and found the commandments that u talked of are almost same in almost all the above text I mentioned. The basic is to give and get respect and show mercy to all along with preservation of mother nature.

“they are muslims because they believe every thing good is Islam.”

So does that mean every other religion represents everything bad? Your words are confusing again.
And Pashtoon loosing is not because of them being muslims. When will muslims learn that bad things happening to them is not because of their religion. Getting religion into every single sphere of life is very dangerous to co-existence.

And as for bogeys I will not say any word on Taliban so as not to hurt your sentiments but ISI and PA is not bogey, they are real and have been hurting India for quite long. Even if it is some criminals doing crimes using their names in their land then also it is their responsibility to stop these unlawful activities being done on their land against India if they seriously want cordial relations. The government and military of Pakistan are correctly blamed and responsible for unlawful activities emanating from their land and directed towards India.

And as for subject at hand-Regime problem in Pakistan. As are the people so are the governments. Till the time people in pakistan keep shouting “Kashmir banega Pakistan” they will keep electing ignorant morons to their parliament and will keep suffering. Indians are more than ready to join hands with Pakistan but are Pakistanis ready for it??

Posted by 777xxx777 | Report as abusive

why is reuters not allowing me to post?? Trying again:

@Rex
U read Spanish commentary and gave such a huge long reply…WOW…your Spanish must be really good. :)

“Islam is the religion of believers as christianity and judaism is the religion of christians and jews. I have no intention to glorify Islam to non believers nor Islam requires me to defend it. Let God almighty defend his commandments, human race were supposed to follow the commandments or disregard it. The day of the judgement and accountability is after death.”

That is true for every religion and not only for Islam and commandments are not propriety of Islam. This kind of statements are what signify disrespect to other religions by Muslims (NOT Islam) and UNNECESSARILY defame Islam. Open your mind and look beyond without lenses of religion.

“I have never denied the Nation status to Hindus”

You are talking like one of those Indian Netas (politician) who are trying to instigate a mob for violence and rioting. Your choice of words and may be intentions as well are poor. No one here talked about Hindu nation. There is no Hindu nation and there never was. It is India that is nation or Rashtra as we call it. The process will take time may be another 100 years or so but we have been steadily improving and that is some achievement. And if to anyone else’s eyes India is not a nation then our advice is please wait and watch as the conditions are far more improved than what it was 50 years back. Process is slow but is in motion.

“Indian leaders do not demonstrte any regard for the large number of its muslim citizens”

As a matter of fact they demonstrate too much but do too little on ground zero. And even the muslim leaders here who were believed to be closer to community did nothing for the upliftment.

“you guys have still the appetite for the next round”

Please do not put India and Pakistan people in same bag. India had not pre-empted a war with Pakistan since the Bangladesh episode and its been more than 30 years since. India for very long has been wanting Pakistan to sign a peace deal and move on. So please remove that notion from your mind, instead India DOES NOT want to waste energy and resources on wars.

“By the way, the corruption is another bogey which the colonialists have implanted into the minds of the people of their ex colonies”

Power Corrupts. And that is true everywhere and there was corruption in India even before colonists came. So nothing that british invented corruption or so. Its everywhere from times immemorial. It is natural human tendency to accumulate more than what it can consume by any means given the opportunity. And combine that with poverty and financial insecurity and u will have a big menace on hands. Nothing new in it.

“The fact that most of the cteaching of christianity, Judaism and Islam are now incorporated in the Human Rights of the United Nations,”

I would say its your less knowledge about other religions or that Christianity and Islam are most followed, but all religions be it anyone teach us to be humane. So be it Christian, Judaism, Islam, Hinduism, Bhuddhism or any other the teachings are almost the same. Live and Let other live — Bhuddhism and Jainism. And this is what every religion says may be indirectly and in different languages. You must realise its not the religion it is the practice that gets corrupted over the years and be it hindus, muslims, christians, jews, or anyone else. I would advice you to read books of other faiths as well. I have read Bible, Quran, Hindu Vedas, Jainism and Buddhism texts, Sikh’s Guru Granth Sahib and found the commandments that u talked of are almost same in almost all the above text I mentioned. The basic is to give and get respect and show mercy to all along with preservation of mother nature.

“they are muslims because they believe every thing good is Islam.”

So does that mean every other religion represents everything bad? Your words are confusing again.
And Pashtoon loosing is not because of them being muslims. When will muslims learn that bad things happening to them is not because of their religion. Getting religion into every single sphere of life is very dangerous to co-existence.

And as for bogeys I will not say any word on Taliban so as not to hurt your sentiments but ISI and PA is not bogey, they are real and have been hurting India for quite long. Even if it is some criminals doing crimes using their names in their land then also it is their responsibility to stop these unlawful activities being done on their land against India if they seriously want cordial relations. The government and military of Pakistan are correctly blamed and responsible for unlawful activities emanating from their land and directed towards India.

And as for subject at hand-Regime problem in Pakistan. As are the people so are the governments. Till the time people in pakistan keep shouting “Kashmir banega Pakistan” they will keep electing ignorant morons to their parliament and will keep suffering. Indians are more than ready to join hands with Pakistan but are Pakistanis ready for it??

Posted by 777xxx777 | Report as abusive

Ohh my post got posted thrice…First time i posted it showed nothing so i did it second time and again nothing and then third time and it showed all three.

Moderators, I request you to remove the duplicate posts above from me (777xxx777). Thanks. And please make this site more responsive and user friendly.

Posted by 777xxx777 | Report as abusive

@777

777, peace with India let alone peace within itself is politically popular in Pakistan. Hatred, rejection and enmity with everything that is India, American, Israeli or Western is politically popular.

We have yet to see an effective Pak politicians to turn the tide.

Posted by G-W | Report as abusive

typo: should say politically “unpopular”

Posted by G-W | Report as abusive

G-W, I did not understand. please post again without typos as u used popular word twice and which one is typo??

Posted by 777xxx777 | Report as abusive

@777
I would classify your comments now as part of the cold war.Good luck for your vision. Have a nice day, sir and do not take things too seriously. Even in Indian they are going to start “GAMES”.
Let the Pashtoons resist the foreigners and the Pakistani tackle the flood tragedy.
Rex Minor

Posted by pakistan | Report as abusive

Pakistan “What says India, claiming to be a democratic country? Why should’nt Israel retain its democracy and live with the Palestinians.”
*** You will perhaps be surprised to know that the diplomatic relation of India with Israel began in quite late in 1992. Also, India was the first non-Arab country to recognize the PLO as “legitimate representative” of the Palestinian people. India has been consistent supporter of Palestine. India also favors sovereign/independent Palestine. India has been vocal critic of Israel when it is required (Isreal invasion of Lebanon 2006). Pakistan cannot afford to officially recognize Israel but Pak-Israel hidden relations are no secret.

I hope you give credit when it is due.

“Indian leaders do not demonstrte any regard for the large number of its muslim citizens. Israel has now been given the special status in their foreign relation.”
*** True there is a large number of Muslims —more or less than Pakistan. I understand you want to help the community in India but what do you know about Indian Muslims problems? Which Indian leaders, by the way, are you talking about? From all parties? Are you one of those Muslims who rush to link religion with every problem? Not very novel then. The problem is much deeper. “Indian leaders (most of them) do not demonstrate any regard for HUMAN LIFE” and “rule of law” and do not respect the “constitution”. So the Muslims, Sikhs, Christians, Hindus all of them have been victims. The problem is more general and Muslims ALSO become the victims. I would leave it at that for now.

Posted by rehmat | Report as abusive

@Rehmat
Why do you always compare indian deeds with that of pakistan’s. Have I ever said that Pakistan is a great country or its leaders are angels. In fact they are worst than the Indian leaders. pakistan rulers were mostly military people, who had spent most of their time in the fields marching up and down or in staff colleges learning military tactics from the archiv.
Let us not forget that in the end it is the right which wins over the wrong.
I have not felt from the indian leaders any expressions providing any special consideration of its ethnic mix including Muslims and Sikhs. The recent love affair with israel was an example, when Turkey the ally of israel was criticising and put a stop to their military cooperation, india jumped in to obtain drones from them.
No I do not know much about the muslims of India or far that matter the domestic affairs of India and pakistan other than that published in the european press. Occasionaly i do log on in the internet to some towns in india and try to read about the tourist facilities. O’h yes, ther are several very excellent maps of India of the colonial times and the period before them. I find it very interesting to trace the history of Pashtoons when they were residents of several provinces in today’s India.
Do I have to know more, I guess not. I have no intention or means to help the muslim community in India. They are a minority in a democracy and they have to solve their own problems as all the democrats solve them, peacefully and with demonstrations. No sir, i do not link the religion with every problem. For me the religion is very personal and private. Though,I do link the sufferings of the people with the inherent culture of the people. I saw a documentry film yesterday which showed “the inside of today’s India”, the ethnic mix, its cultures and the poltics. And ofcourse the progress the country has made todate. O’h yes they showed us the farmers march on Delhi and the sad story of the low caste people and the sufferings of muslim families at the hands of their hindu neighbours. I do not believe that after seeing this documentary film any European will have any delusion about Indians democracy. No one is going to get angry but simply accept the reality of India, not comparable to the European norms and really feel sorry for the people of India as a whole.
Never mind their nuclear energy ambitions, their big talk about the the GDP growth and their playing a host for the commonwealth games. But that is another episode. It is very strange I even saw the Maharaja speaking about the sufferings of the poor. What India needs is not the devolution but a revolution to rid themselves of their ancient caste system. Perhaps one day it would become an issue for the UNO to help the Indians to unite against this human disgrace where people do not have equal rights even in a so called democracy.
Rex Minor

Posted by pakistan | Report as abusive

@Rex
“I have not felt from the indian leaders any expressions providing any special consideration of its ethnic mix including Muslims and Sikhs. The recent love affair with israel was an example, when Turkey the ally of israel was criticising and put a stop to their military cooperation, india jumped in to obtain drones from them.”

And why should anyone get special considerations over others? Just because they are muslims, sikh, christian or hindus? Why should state treat a particular group with any speciality? Why should it be state policy to discriminate on any basis whatsoever?
Rehmat would you agree with Rex that anyone (including Muslims) be given any special considerations in India? Or should everyone be treated at par?
I believe the trouble is not state policy, trouble is unlawful activities by criminals (unfortunately mostly our politicians) escaping justice using bribes.
And how the hell is state level cooperation with Israel has got anything to do with condition of muslims in India?? Do you yourself know what you are talking?

“the sufferings of muslim families at the hands of their hindu neighbours”

The muslims are suffering in India NOT because of Hindus but more because of a bunch of Hindu and Muslim POLITICIANS who exploit religion for filling their own pockets. And crimes in name of religion are just a few bunch of criminals committing crimes and escaping through bribes and very easily using religion as bogey.

As for caste system the scenario is changing and of course will take a few more generations to eradicate. Our next generation doesn’t really care what is the surname of the person sitting next to him in classroom, boardroom or restaurant. All we care about is whether the person is qualified or not. But we cannot go on killing old people for removing caste system. I suggest u read history of India very deeply and not just tv shows…”India After Gandhi” by Ramashandran Guha could be a good starting point. And again crimes in name of castism are just a few bunch of criminals committing crimes and escaping through bribes and very easily using castism as bogey with help from ignorant media and readers like you. Investigate deep and bogies will blow away in wind.

“Do I have to know more, I guess not.”

Wrong guess. When u say that whatever is published in media about Holy Pashtoon land is not all true then how can whatever published about India be all true. I am puzzled with your judgement. There is much more about India than a few colonial maps, of course if u wish to know.

Your choice of words is often very poor given the European norms.

Posted by 777xxx777 | Report as abusive

Pakistan:

“Why do you always compare indian deeds with that of pakistan’s. Have I ever said that Pakistan is a great country or its leaders are angels……The recent love affair with israel was an example, when Turkey the ally of israel was criticising and put a stop to their military cooperation, india jumped in to obtain drones from them.”

*****I do not compare India vs Pakistan unless it is relevent. May I ask you why you expect India not to have relation with Isreal?

Given that India supports Palestine cause (perhaps considering there are Muslims living in India) and this has not changed irrespective of “recent love affair with israel”. The Mumbai terrorist, during his audio interview with an Indian Channel when he was in the middle of killing innocents in Mumbai, asked the interviewer a similar question “why Isreael intelligence (or..security…???) expert of Isreal is doing in India? I can understand that terrorist bit more than you. The reality is innocents have died at the hands of terrorists. Israel has experience and the technology to tackle terrorism. There is no harm in building relations with Israel to lauch spy satellite or obtain drones if it is not at the expense of Palestine people.

” have not felt from the indian leaders any expressions providing any special consideration of its ethnic mix including Muslims and Sikhs.”
***Since you asked this question, you tell me what do you know about special considerations already given (or not given)? What special consideration do you have in mind?

Posted by rehmat | Report as abusive

@777
I guess from my comments you interpret a question and then answer it. What a strange way of looking at things: I did not say that the Indian leaders should give special consideration for muslims and sikhs “over others”. I said the ethnic mix including sikhs and muslims. From the Malaysian leaders we hear comments about their ethnic mix, whether practiced or not I am not aware of it. Equally, I am not aware of the conditionsin India, other than those shown in the documentary film shown on the tele in Germany only yesterday. According to your words the caste system changes would take a few more generations to eradicate. Well, there you are then it would seem that the Indian democracy is different than that of the universally accepted credo, Govt. of the people, by the people and for the people etc. Also what I mentioned about the sufferings of muslims at the hands of their neighbours was stated by a muslim woman who claimed in the documentary film to have been thrown out of the poor dwellings by no one other than her neighbour so accuses the woman. I guess if the Indian Govt. does not agree with the episodes then they should protest against the film producers.
The film was simply portraying the new India with all its economic leads and about the problems and conditions of the citizens. There was no malice or propaganda intended , in my view, to degrade the country.
Thank you for the tip to read the history of india. Did I say that what is published about the Pashtoons is not true? That the Pashtoons are dying on both sides of the border is true. That several resistance groups are stationed in pakistan is definitely true. Myra has mentioned some of them. You guys because of your knowledge are linking incidents affecting India with ISI etc. the same way as many relate CIA to many incidences in the world. The Indian Govt. is of the opinion that pakistan as a sovereign country should control the groups who carry out operations in India, and holds the Pakistan govt. responsible.
I would say that India should stop the military atrocities against the kashmiris and these groups would disappear in thin air, and the american govt. should their operations in several muslim countries from Yemen to Afghanistan, and the so called resistamce groups would disappear in the thin air. So simple is the solution. Do you believe that any of the State actors would take note of my advice, certainly not. then we are not going to solve the problem by lumping them in one group and the other and use the labels of Taliban etc. We have seen the break down of the Afghan President today and sooner or later he is going to order what the Amir of Afghanistan did centuries ago, order the expulsion of the foreigners from his land. Have we reached that point, I am not sure.
Rex Minor
PS The USA can then try to rescue its marines and the weaponry.

Posted by pakistan | Report as abusive

@Rex
“Well, there you are then it would seem that the Indian democracy is different than that of the universally accepted credo, Govt. of the people, by the people and for the people etc.”

There are I guess at least 3 states (including the one in which I live in) in India having their chief ministers belonging to so called low caste. So it would be appreciable that u shut up on that.

“Also what I mentioned about the sufferings of muslims at the hands of their neighbours was stated by a muslim woman who claimed in the documentary film to have been thrown out of the poor dwellings by no one other than her neighbour so accuses the woman.”

The neighbour is then the criminal. Why give a religious angle to it. The police might not have lodged a complaint because they might have been bribed. Again criminal activities. Why are you giving religious colours to it. And if that woman is saying that happened to her because of being muslims then she is one of those who like a very large section of muslims ASSUME that bad things happen to them because of them being muslims. No need to drag religion into everything. As I said investigate deep and bogeys will blow away in wind.

“There was no malice or propaganda intended , in my view, to degrade the country.”

How are you so sure of the film producer’s intentions? And Indian government already has so many problems on its hands that it cannot go on to sue a bunch of film producers. And neither do its people want the government to go after a bunch fools showing somewhat distorted commentary. I feel even the intentions of film producers might not be bad but its just that what is shown is THEIR interpretation of India and that interpretation might not be correct as everyone makes mistakes sometime or the other. While I agree with caste system menace but giving religious angle to criminal acts is definitely false interpretation.

” Did I say that what is published about the Pashtoons is not true? That the Pashtoons are dying on both sides of the border is true.”

It seems u choose to ASSUME what is true and what is not of all that is published as per your CONVENIENCE. This kind of convenient assumptions are very dangerous to health as they take you away from truth.

“The Indian Govt. is of the opinion that pakistan as a sovereign country should control the groups who carry out operations in India, and holds the Pakistan govt. responsible.”

And rightly so.

“I would say that India should stop the military atrocities against the kashmiris and these groups would disappear in thin air, ”

As I said u need to read Indian history in detail. Before 80-90′s there were not so heavy military presence in Kashmir. But the Pakistan backed jihadi groups butchered Hindu pandits like anything. That was the height of militancy in Kashmir on India side. At that time in 1990-91 the Indian government had to militarize the whole region to create a deterrent to further militancy. Whether this deterrent has been affective or not is debatable. But you opinion of demilitarising Kashmir and groups will disappear in thin air is absolutely foolish and stupid. I would seriously recommend that u read that book I mentioned above as the author is very respected and renowned historian of India and the accounts of History of India mentioned in book are true to a very large extent some of them witnessed by myself during Punjab militancy years.

On one hand u say that u don’t know much about India, and on other hand u say don’t believe all that is published and investigate deep and then in end u see some documentary and form an opinion about India instead of asking Indian guys whether all that is shown is true or not. I try my best not to have opinions of things whom i do not have knowledge about. All I know of 9/11 for sure is Bin Laden CLAIMED the attacks whether he actually carried out or not is another thing. Similarily we know for sure that it was the ruling tribe in Afghanistan that ordered the demolition of Bhuddha statues in name of Islam now u call that ruling tribe by whatever name u like if u don’t like to call them Taliban.

Posted by 777xxx777 | Report as abusive

Rex Minor

You assume that all states must be nation-states.

That’s a very flawed concept in this century.

History has passed you by and proved you wrong. Move on.

Posted by kEiThZ | Report as abusive

[...] For weeks, media outlets have hinted that Pakistan’s military, which historically views itself as the “savior” of the country (I prefer “meddling mother-in-law”), has been “weighing options” for an indirect intervention in Pakistan’s political sphere, as reported by last week’s Friday Times. According to Reuters Now or Never, [...]

@777
You are not with it. Even if India appoints a Prime Minister from the low castes, it is nnot a demioctatic country if the caste is maintained and practiced in India. India must declare that the caste system is illegal. No special rights for muslims or sikhs or other ethnic groups. In the eyes of the law, all citizens should have equal rights. If this is the case then i apologise. If not then please do not try to convince the world of the largest democracy in the world.
Bin Laden is an Arab national, not a Pashtoon but was the resident of afghanistan. The USA had no proof at the time about his involvement, which is what the civilised States like the USA are obliged to provide before they ask for extridition of a citizen from another country. There are many people wanted by the america law who have the asylum staus in Europe and these states refuse to hand over the individual to the USA unless they submit the proof to these Govts of their crimnal involvement. The latest case is of Mr Polanski, who we all know has abused the under age person in the USA, and even after arrest by the Swiss Govt. the American Justice department was not able to provide a proof and hence the guy was set free by the Swiss authorities. Mr Bin Laden boasts about the events in the world are misleading eeven for the USA legal world.
The destruction of the ancient statues was barbaric and was the act most probably of some individual group who came from the south. It was definitely not the grand idea of the new Govt. to destroy harmless ancient statues. This does not compare to the destruction carried out by the USA in Afghanistan and Iraq and the Israeli destruction of mosques and bridges in the middle east. All of these acts are barbaric, inhuman and serve no purpose other than the expression of anger and hate even within the civilised world.
Let us not make too much of the documentry. I do not live in India and am not making any judgement on indian affairs. i recognise also that most of the events are exegerated. my concern is with the system and not the daily events. Do you have a democracy where al people are equal in the law. The law must not discriminate, the communities take time and learn to live with one another eventually.
Believe me I do not know much about today’s India and i do hope that they overcome their problems and help create a good neighbourly relations with all countries of the south east. But when I hear your new foreign minister being satisfied with the Chinese Premier statemen of no bullet has been fired in their borders with china, then i ask myself is this the right attitude in diplomacy to be satisfied with the statusquo.?

@rehmat
Sorry, but you are very complicated for me. you answer me with your questions. you are like CNN zakari, involved with the terrorist actionand killing of innocents. Have you heard of a collateral damage from the americans. You obviously have not. have you heard why the God almighty allows the kikllings of innocents, old children and above all women. Why do women have to suffer when most decisions are taken by the men. I tell you why because the when the militarists and the civilian terrorists act to kill others, they do no longer believe in any religion and try to destroy and kill anything which moves. This is the reality and you are going to witness more of it in this global world. They tel us that the american military killing of civilians is investigated and if the soldiers are even court marshalled. I am not sure about the terrorists, one cannot even ask the guy because they are on a suicide mission any way. The one who is caught is usuially tortured so his statement is a fake anyway. So you regard the drone technology is a state of art available from israel. Any Indian scientis of basic aeronotis cn develop and construct a god dam drone within few months if not weeks. Come off it you are a naive person as one can be to give a technical status to Israel?. The country whose adversaries are even to day camel riders and shopping mall tycoons. Are you genuinely comparing Indian technological advances with that of a country which lives off the knowledge and money of the USA direct or with the help of the 5th columnists americans. You are simply insulting the Indian elite scientists. You can buy the small drones in a toy shop in Europe and china. Are you saying that you have never made a toy drone fly yourself and retrieving it. Then probably you have never thrown a boomerang as well. Sorry, Rehmat you are a hopless case. The enemy of my enemy must be my friend, and the friend of my enemy is basically my enemy but could be influenced to become my friend. This has been the foreign policy of India, in my view. Has India changed its foreign policy nowß perhaps i have not witnessed it. You tell me and do not give the Indian logic of what is wrong with this or that.
Have a nice day. I am tired and like the dalai lama says I must take a bite.
Rex Minor

Posted by pakistan | Report as abusive

@777
If India is going to hold Pakistan responsible for any future terrorist attacks on India, and retaliate as well, then I am afraid we are going to see finally a genuine war not with words but fire power. Pakistan is in no postion to stop terrorist attacks on India as long as its military is in occupation of Kashmir. Same goes to Israel, and like the Madam seretary said, no security for Israel and no independent Palestine. I follow the same logic, no security for India if there is the occupationof Kashmir. Occupation and security are interrelate. The choice is in Indian leaders hand. No more larifari, about who has the responsibility and who has not.
The logic for peace therefore is that it is time that all the occupiers leave the occupied territory and go to their homes, lower down the window shutters and for once enjoy the domestic envioranment.
Rex Minor

Posted by pakistan | Report as abusive

I am same as 777xxx777. Bug in reuters.

@Rex
“India must declare that the caste system is illegal. No special rights for muslims or sikhs or other ethnic groups. In the eyes of the law, all citizens should have equal rights. If this is the case then i apologise.”

Apologies accepted. Caste system was declared illegal the day India’s constitution was formalised on 26-January-1950. As I said before problem is NOT law but the problem is ENFORCEMENT of law.

“Do you have a democracy where al people are equal in the law. The law must not discriminate, the communities take time and learn to live with one another eventually.”

YES. Law in India treats everyone as equal. It is the lawyers who are trouble and add to that rampant corruption among law enforcement agencies and u get the impression that law is bad. But I hope I am clear now and that we will not get any more comments saying Indians not doing anything of caste system. Believe me the next generation in India cares least about caste and religion, all that we want is economic progress.

And India applies same logic to Kashmir as well that with time and investment the Kashmiris will learn to live peacefully with India EVENTUALLY. And as our MEA said if Pakistan vacates Kashmir on its side then India is ready to replicate. So that if its independence that kashmiris want then so be it and be in totality. If Pak cares for Kashmiris then so do we. But pelting stones and taking law into their own hands is not helping kashmiri’s cause.

Posted by 007XXX | Report as abusive

@Rex
“Come off it you are a naive person as one can be to give a technical status to Israel?. The country whose adversaries are even to day camel riders and shopping mall tycoons”

Then you should lecture Arabs to stop barking about Israel’s supposed nukes. Why IAEA scrutiny for Israel when Israel has adversaries in form of camel riders?

Posted by 007XXX | Report as abusive

By the as for Drones. The beauty is not in that it can fly and attack. Rex is right that anyone can make a flying machine. But may be he is not aware that beauty is in fact that Drones have a very high accuracy of strikes because its navigation is supported by GPS system of US navy which in turn is due to 32 US satellites circling around earth for the positioning system only. I know of GPS system because I have used it myself during my intern as telecom engineering trainee while doing transmission surveys. So the data that is available free of cost from GPS has error of about 20 meters or so but the data used by US itself is accurate upto 2 meters. And this is the data that is shared by US military with Israel. So it is not about a flying human less bomb machine (we in India fire rocket crackers every diwali) but it is the accuracy that makes it a beauty. So eventually drone is a joint project of US and Israel.

Posted by 007XXX | Report as abusive

@Rex
And because Pakistan does not let out any news about its side of Kashmir u assume its only India that Kashmiris hurl stones at. In your words only i say Investigate Deep.

Posted by 007XXX | Report as abusive

@007xxx
Pakistan has no business to be in kashmir. It was cheated by the Brits and the congress leaders who agreed a deal but did not keep it.Their service for the kashmiris has been to ask the pashtoon tribes to assist them in their clandestine operations and subsequently to grant Kashmiri refugees the Pakistani passports for travel to the UK. Today the Kashmiris like the Palestinians are scatered in Europe living like refugees. Those who stayed behind are either under the military rule of the Indian might or trying to live in remoarse in pakistan, where they have some relief but very limited possibility to communicate with their brothers across the border.
Rex Minor

Posted by pakistan | Report as abusive

Pakistan:
“Sorry, Rehmat you are a hopless case. The enemy of my enemy must be my friend, and the friend of my enemy is basically my enemy but could be influenced to become my friend. This has been the foreign policy of India, in my view.”
****Thanks for the complement but do not extend my opinion to foreign policy of India. I do not give a rat’s ass to who your friend and enemy are as long as India is not screwing Palestine cause while protecting its own ass.

“Sorry, but you are very complicated for me. you answer me with your questions.”
***I feel answering would be a waste of my time since you have strong opinions about India but know shockingly nothing. As an example you say ““India must declare that the caste system is illegal.” That is your knowledge of India! 30Sec google will tell you that this system was made illegal 60 yrs ago. I ask you questions to know whatever little you know so that I can add to that. I hope that is uncomplicated enough. Cannot help anymore if not.

You have OCD of going back to America’s crimes for each issue under discussion. Discuss it separately. I am not glad here that Bush admn killed near million in Iraq. But try to keep issues separate.

“you are like CNN zakari, involved with the terrorist actionand killing of innocents. Have you heard of a collateral damage from the americans. You obviously have not.”
****By a stroke of luck I have heard collateral damage. I respect Fareed Zakaria. He hails from Mumbai and his mom works in the Taj that was attacked by terrorists. She was on leave that day otherwise she would have become collateral damage. So NO Sir, I and other Indian Muslims do not want to be collateral damage like this. If terrorists kill anything which moves then I am not a collateral damage anymore but a target. You support Kashmir cause, I also do. You support those killers and call Indian Muslims as collateral damage—Shame on you! I do not buy that terrorists do not have religion. That has become a survival tool for these killers. Unfortunately these are guys are motivated by the distorted version of religion and are supported by peace-loving God-fearing people.

I can see how naive you are about drones and 777xxx777 commented already. Thanks 777xxx777!

Posted by rehmat | Report as abusive

@007
Drones are useful for reconisence, but not for combat.Missiles are more powerful. The Pashtoons are unable to send missiles with in their own country, their home made copies of Klashnikov and IED’s are more powerful weapons in asymetric combat. The USA military has no remedy for this type of combat.
Rex Minor

Posted by pakistan | Report as abusive

@Rehmat
Now you are bitter too. You raised certain questions and i tried to answer them.As I said you are a complicated person and are not prepared to accept the answers. If the low caste system does not operate in India then it is fine.And if you want to absolve Indian political leaders and the Govt. from what is occuring inside India then it is fine too. But you do not need to play uncle tom. The muslims are a minority in india and should accept this reality but some of those who do not accept the injustice, have the right to protest. if you are a satisfied muslim then get off this blog and do not intercede on behalf of the majority. They are quite in numbers to defend the indian Govt. Perhaps you should preach to the Indian muslims to accept the one third of the land they were given today from the remains of the mosque. After all the muslims are not even one third of the population.
The subject was the regime change in pakistan and not the terrorist attack in india or the loss of civilians. I have said earlier the religon has nothing to do with terrorism or the political games. I have described the Indian foreign policy which I observed and you have not even understood the sentence. If you are in disagreement then say so, I have not been to a school where the opponents are called Ignorents, this is something which must be common in indian schools. Incidently I do not differentiate between Hindus, muslims and Sikhs, they are all Indians. You once said that Sikhs are not a Nation. For me they are, the question in my view has always been if india is going to reach the status of a Nation, if a part of the country is under military occupation.
Rex Minor

Posted by pakistan | Report as abusive

@Rex

“I have not been to a school where the opponents are called Ignorents, this is something which must be common in indian schools.”

No Sir, you are wrong about India again. India is a land where people follow the King Rama who gave arrows to his opponent Ravana when Ravana ran out of his set of arrows in middle of a battle. We in India are taught to respect our enemies as well. India is a land where people fall in love even with enemies let alone opponents and adversaries.

But when someone says, “I know little of India’s history, constitution, people, etc but India should do this, should do that, blah blah blah” then it is ridiculous and laughable for us.

Posted by 777xxx777 | Report as abusive

@Rehmat

Come on man, Rex (pakistan) once taunted me that I should not take things seriously. So why are you taking seriously a person who himself says and demonstrates that his knowledge is so little about India/Pakistan but gives lengthy and often meaningless commentary on India/Pakistan. Just sit back and laugh at his foolishness. He will go on calling all that don’t agree with him with titles like war mongers, hopeless, bitter and so on but don’t worry be happy. Let outsiders comment what they want to why should that change our positive opinions about our country. He is not responsible for India’s future but we are. So as the old saying goes, “suno sabki par karo apni”.

Posted by 777xxx777 | Report as abusive

Pakistan

“The muslims are a minority in india and should accept this reality but some of those who do not accept the injustice, have the right to protest. if you are a satisfied muslim then get off this blog and do not intercede on behalf of the majority. ”
*** Census shows that Muslims are a minority. So? Of course everyone has the right to protest but what are you protesting about where we differ? How are you an unsatisfied Muslim if you are neither an Indian nor in your own words here to help the Indian Muslim community. I won’t ask you to get off the blog.

“Perhaps you should preach to the Indian muslims to accept the one third of the land they were given today from the remains of the mosque. After all the muslims are not even one third of the population.”
*** Do not get worked up over there in Germany for no reason. If you have followed the news, you would have seen no one needed any one preach them to stay cool and accept the verdict. Perhaps you are the one who needs preaching. FYI, people in India really want to move on, really! You better hurry up.

“I have not been to a school where the opponents are called Ignorents, this is something which must be common in indian schools.”
***Ignorance is not a problem per se. Ignorant about something but having strong opinions is a problem.

777xxx777: @“suno sabki par karo apni”. That’s right!

Posted by rehmat | Report as abusive

@Rehmat
You should have taken the advice of 777! i did not get the impression today that the minority muslim leaders are cool and really want to move on. The majority yes, and the minority on the terms of majority. The majority appearing on the media was urging the minority to give up the one third and let the provisional temple to stay. Israel has been evicting palistinians from their land because the land was reserved for the jews before the arabisation of the land. you are a very conciliatry person but in my ignorant opinion a minority within the minority. Good luck any way and do not take every thing seriously. like we say here what has to happen is going to happen any way. We have always managed to have a good time. If not so what, let us have a drink any way. Have a nice day.
Rex Minor

Posted by pakistan | Report as abusive

@Rex
“i did not get the impression today that the minority muslim leaders”

Thats the trouble of muslims/hindus/sikhs/christians in India their stupid fool LEADERS. Current set of LEADERS are a problem for every Indian be it hindu (biggest fool leaders), muslim (leaders next on foolishness index after hindu leaders), sikh, christian, anyone else. I agree with Rehmat that ordinary people be it any community want to move on. For Gen Y of this nation it is only economics and security that matters, temple or mosque do NOT matter at all. I have a few muslim friends who care least about a masjid or mandir, all they care about is money and wealth. Supreme court of India will intentionally and cleverly take another 50 years to arrive at a decision and by then no one in either community will care about the issue. Even now people feel that let the land be put to some good use like hospital, school or may be even a power generation facility. As I said u watch idiot box too much and form rigid opinions without investigating deep. And today in India its the Gen Y that is real driving force of the nation and that’s why unprecedented calm in India despite of leaders desperately wanting to instigate violence and surprisingly no curfew declared in any part of India at all. As I said before also since u know little and comment a lot so u shud follow ur OWN advice, and investigate DEEP.

Posted by 777xxx777 | Report as abusive

@777
i fully agree with your logic, but logic is not always the truth. India claims for secularism and the independent judiciary makes a political decision. as long as there are no riots and loss of life, the world is not concerned. i am simply an observer and analyse, i do not influence the decisions.
Most of the Indian citizens have a common culture and most probably a common DNA regardless of their ethnic and religious differences. and yet it is the ethnic dívide and the religious alliances mostly influence their political attitude.
But this is another discussion.
let there be a peace if the people want it and let there be the war if that is what the people desire. We must keep the sence of humour though i do not sence your satire and you do not mine.
Rex Minor

Posted by pakistan | Report as abusive

@Rex
Judges are also human and to err is human. That’s why there is supreme court and ample legal procedure to follow.

Unprecedented calm in country even in wake of supposedly a fiercely fought issue is example enough that people want peace. No curfew not even in a single city in India and especially not in a single city of state of UP (where Ayodhya is) is a glaring and refreshing vision of young and vibrant India. Message to fools of New Delhi should be loud and clear that Gen Y is coming and we do not want mandir(temple) masjid(mosque) nonsense; all we want is peace and progress for all.

Anyway since we are going way off topic so lets end it here. India internal issues are not meant to be discussed here in this article.

Posted by 777xxx777 | Report as abusive

Pakistan:
“You should have taken the advice of 777!”
*** That’s exactly what I did. Listened to him and did my own. Complicated?

Your problem is you do not see half glass full and you would continue to have problem even if India approaches utopia.

Relax, no need to give the following statement.
“Israel has been evicting palistinians from their land because the land was reserved for the jews before the arabisation of the land.”

Knowing nothing and talking like a loud speaker is called Bullshitting. That’s what you do. Sorry about my french but I am not that conciliatory.

Perhaps you can tell me what could have been a better verdict keeping in mind the fall outs. Also tell me what would have happened in any other place ONCE a minority religious site is demolished.

Young generation today care more about gadgets and ipods than about these issues. This happened before they were born or were toddlers. It is some outsiders like you who have NO STAKE in India and care less about the fall outs of a decision and some radical leaders and a minority from all communities in India which is a problem.

Just chill and have a drink for the Mosque is coming up, bit smaller than the original and no one has died in the riots. Celebrate life. I will pay for your drink when we meet.

Posted by rehmat | Report as abusive

@R
I guess you do not want a reply to your rude comments. The moderator has refused to accept my reply. Plese do us a favour and do not use a very decent muslim name as your initial if you are worshipping the BULL!
Rex Minor

Posted by pakistan | Report as abusive

@Rex
“Plese do us a favour and do not use a very decent muslim name as your initial if you are worshipping the BULL!”

Now you are trying to insult not only Rehmat but also Islam and humanity as well. Your choice of words is extremely poor.

Posted by 777xxx777 | Report as abusive

Pakistan
“Plese do us a favour and do not use a very decent muslim name as your initial if you are worshipping the BULL!”

***Who is “us” up there? No need to go after my name now. There are many like me. How many names would u advise to change? You can call yourself Pakistan or Rex Minor I do not care. I look at the point made. My advice is to take a deep breath and RELAX. Think positive. Cynicism will carry you no where.

Feel free to say anything to me. I am not writing back to you on useless back and forth in this blog entry. You can have all the fun you want. But listen this carefully–I am not pack of the herd which you seem to be part of.

Posted by rehmat | Report as abusive

Pakistan:
typo: [part of the herd]

Posted by rehmat | Report as abusive

I being a long time observer of Pakistan’s politics and seen its ups and down, I have the feeling that something is cooking up in the direction everybody calls now rumor. May be after a few days it may no more remain a rumor but may take the shape of reality, who is there who can deny his inevitable, facts of the future.

This Power is such a thing that any person/organization that tasted it could never forget its flavor that automatically invites them to taste it repeatedly. Thus if Army takes over there is nothing to be surprised.

I would prefer to observe and see the next steps how it turns the table for good or for worse. Wait, see and follow is the best policy in such cases.

Posted by KINGFISHER | Report as abusive

@KFisher
I like your wait and see for the next steps for good or worse. Here is one of the Nostradamus prophecy, which I find very appropriate too:
They shall be driven away without putting up a long fight.
They shall be harried more strongly through the countryside, Town and city shall put up stronger resistance.
Carcassone and Narbonne shall have their courage put to test.

Rex Minor

Posted by pakistan | Report as abusive

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