Does that U.S. “retribution plan” for Pakistan still stand?

September 27, 2010

flagburningOne of the more interesting details in the advance reports of Bob Woodward’s “Obama’s Wars” is that Washington had prepared a “retribution plan” in the event of a major attack on the United States which is traced back to Pakistan.

“While no contingency plans exist for dealing militarily with a collapse of nuclear-armed Pakistan, there is ‘a retribution plan’ in place, developed by the Bush administration, if the United States suffers another 9/11-style terrorist attack,” according to the Los Angeles Times. ”That would involve bombing and missile strikes to obliterate the more than 150 al Qaeda training and staging camps known to exist, most of them in Pakistan, which presumably would suffer extensive civilian casualties.”

“Some locations might be outdated, but there would be no concern, under the plan, for who might be living there now. The retribution plan called for a brutal punishing attack on at least 150 or more associated camps,” the Times of India quoted Woodward as saying.
 
The idea that the Americans would take drastic punitive action if a major attack were traced back to Pakistan has been around for a while, and is one that worries many Pakistanis. But I’ve not seen it spelled out quite so clearly before in black-and-white.
 
Some important questions then.
 
1) Does that plan still stand?
 
2) Does it apply only to al Qaeda, or has it been updated to take account of threats from other Pakistan-based groups? 
 
Take, for example, the failed car-bombing of New York’s Times Square in May by Pakistani American Faisal Shahzad, who said he was working with the Tehrik-e-Taliban Pakistan, or Pakistani Taliban.  While mainly based in Pakistan’s tribal areas bordering Afghanistan, the Pakistani Taliban also have a strong presence in the city of Karachi, so if you want to take punitive action against them, where do you draw the line?
 
What also of other militant groups such as the al Qaeda-linked Jaish-e-Mohammed , based in Pakistan’s heartland Punjab province and with alleged connections to the 2006 “liquid bombing” plot to bring down multiple airliners over the Atlantic? Or of the Punjab-based Lashkar-e-Taiba, which in the 2008 attack on Mumbai for which it was blamed, showed it had organisational skills comparable to al Qaeda to mount a spectacular assault, and which has also been linked to overseas plots?
 
The idea that al Qaeda was somehow a unitary organisation representing a unique threat to the United States has come to look very dated since 9/11.  Does that mean the “retribution plan” has also been overtaken by events?
 
3) To what extent can Pakistan prevent Pakistan-based militants from plotting attacks on the United States, when it can’t even prevent bombings of its own cities? Does the  “retribution plan” attribute responsibility to Pakistani authorities for failing – according to the United States – to “do more” to tackle militants?
 
4) How far could Pakistan withstand U.S. punitive action even if this were limited to its tribal areas? The country is already looking pretty shaky after devastating floods and the economy is in a shambles. A shift to civilian democracy that was supposed to bring stability has been sorely undermined by weak governance, which has seen the balance of power shifting increasingly back towards the Pakistan Army. Taliban militants have been trying to exploit political instability by stoking sectarian tensions, bombing Shi’ite rallies in the cities of Lahore and Quetta this month.  And anti-Americanism is already running  high, exacerbated by public hostility to U.S. drone bombings in the tribal areas.  The risk would be that intensified U.S. bombings could increase instability in Pakistan to such an extent that Washington would end up with an even bigger security threat – a nuclear-armed country slipping out of control.
 
Of course everyone remembers former president Pervez Musharraf’s comment that Washington had threatened to bomb Pakistan back into the stone age if he did not cooperate after 9/11. But I’ve never been entirely clear what that meant.  Bombing a nuclear-armed country into a state of chaos, or indeed attempting to invade it, are unlikely policy options for Washington as it tries to extract itself from two unpopular wars while also fretting about neighbouring Iran’s own nuclear ambitions.  Yet bombing suspected al Qaeda camps in the tribal areas could simply increase instability without eradicating militancy.
 
So where does that leave the United States and its “retribution plan”? Where are the red lines that would demand an immediate and powerful U.S. reaction? Would it depend on the size of the attack, the intensity of public reaction, or electoral imperatives at the time?  Does anyone know? Does Pakistan?
 
In strategic thinking about the relationship between India and Pakistan, one of the biggest worries has always been that both countries do not know where the other’s red lines lie when it comes to the use of nuclear weapons.  Even more worrying, they think they do. That thinking probably applies too to the United States and Pakistan - that they don’t know where each other’s red lines lie – either in terms of Washington’s ability to absorb another attack, or in Pakistan’s ability to withstand the U.S. reaction.  You would have to hope that they know they don’t know, and that the “retribution plan”, if it still exists, never has to be put into practice.
(Reuters photo: Protesters burn U.S. flag in Peshawar) 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 

 

Comments

Umair,

You lost the plot a long time ago.

Posted by DaraIndia | Report as abusive
 

Pakistan is still expending all it’s money and effort to prevent the recurrence of a four decade old scenario.
The Bangladesh loss was a totally one sided affair, which happens maybe once in a hundred years. Pakistanis can rest assured that 1971 is not repeatable.

Posted by trickey | Report as abusive
 

Wars cannot be won with missiles and nukes. They can cause damage to the enemy. But troops have to get into the ground to take advantage of the situation. Missiles help soften up the enemy.

Some Pakistanis have no maturity whatsoever. They somehow think just possessing a bunch of missiles and nukes is good enough to take on a super power. One can call a bluff with those things. But if the reality demands a strike, trust me, the US can knock the living daylights out of Pakistan. They are not going to wait for Pakistan to make strategic plans to attack Diego Garcia etc. They include all scenarios in their plans. To fight a war, one needs deep and sound economy to back it. Pakistan’s economy in a war situation can collapse in a couple of days.

Do not assume that Israel will simply sit and watch. More than India, Israel is looking at Pakistan as the worst nemesis to be leveled. All Pakistan’s missiles are North Korean made. It costs a lot of money to make them and maintain them. Pakistan’s donors are going to demand that their money not be spent on those things.

But dream on. It is entertaining.

Posted by KPSingh01 | Report as abusive
 

@Rex
You seem to be far too much impressed by Pashtoons only because of their 100 years of history and probably of them being Muslim as well. But you did not answer my original question: how does non-fearing makes someone unbeatable. It is correct that Lord says that human race should fear the almighty only but how does that convert them to unbeatable beings? Pashtoon example does not convince me..just 100 years of history is not something to boast about.

And by your definition of defeat there is not a single human tribe on face of earth that can be controlled for long. So whether humans fear God or not all of them are unbeatable. So again it beatable or unbeatable has nothing to do with the commandment. By your standards to what extent a country should be held up for considering a defeat? How long is long enough for you? I will accept whatever you say on this.

“The Indian army would then have the possibility to confront these warriors, similar to their ancestors who occupied the indian sub-continent.
And where the American leaders are looking for the exit you are imagining about defeating these people.”

I hope that never comes because as someone in these blogs said Indians are perfectly capable of unimaginable brutality if red lines are crossed. But from your perspective it seems you believe that Pashtoons one day will rule the asian land. Then why has that not happened till date? U r forgetting one very important thing — the terrain of Afghanistan. It is the terrain that has got them through so many wars and not any of their so called non-fearing skill or something. In history pashtoons were first defeated by Indian King Ashoka and then by Mongolian tribals lead by Attila. And common factor in both cases was CRUELITY by Ashoka and Attila. And Brits and Americans both lacked this and I have no doubt that Americans will eventually leave, I never argued that, u consider it a defeat fine then so be it. And I think Pashtoons would not want to experience the same brutality again and that too wilfully. And second is that there are no immediate economic benefits of holding Afghanistan for long so it becomes economically non-viable as well.

You are overly impressed with Pashtoons may be because of their propaganda of establishing Sharia law and of them supposedly being Allah’s own messengers or something and somewhat due to their recent history. You are right about USA that it is falling apart economically and that economic fools cannot be super powers. But if u want to fancy ur chances of Pashtoons establishing rule of Allah all over Asian sub-continent then I do not have to say who is living in cuckoo land.

Posted by 777xxx777 | Report as abusive
 

Umair,

There would be no retaliation against the U.S., unless you want total complete obliteration in return. There is always a push during these times to pull out what these guys have in the skunk works. I don’t even want to think about what would happen to Pakistan if Pakistan ever Redlined the decision to go nxuklear against the U.S. Pakistan would fall within days and surrender, but that will not be enough for them, they will invade your territory to get your nxkes, even after you surrender. They will come to disarm you. You can expect millions of refugess influxing into India to be fed.

Umair, there is no retribution against the U.S. They are the most powerful military force in the world, your country will bow to their will.

Posted by G-W | Report as abusive
 

@kpsingh
You are right wars are not won with missiles and nukes! They cause damage. But you have always overestimated the power of the USA and now Israel. Israel is the most vulnerable spot in the world, ready to commit suicide any time. This has been their history and this is going to be their future, unless their leaders learn to live with their neighbours ion peace.
You believe that the USA with an army of rifrafs can knock out the living light daylights out of pakistan? You delude yourself as many in the USA who talk about their strategic nucler force, underestimating the opposite numbers, remember “the axis of evil”? The question is how to bell the cat? I am not sure how much the Pakistani Generals consider taking on the USA, they certainly have been weak against India. India is not a reliable partner, they let down the Tamils and they over reacted within their own orders.
Pakistan main donor is the Saudi Govt. which happens to be the major donor of america and the sunni pashtoon tribes.
i guess it is childish to believ that the USA can take on another battle ground for their war machinery?
Rex Minor

Posted by pakistan | Report as abusive
 

@777
pashtons are unbeatabl, how? This has puzzled the historians going back to Bellow and Baruni. I have some idea but do not have any evidence if this is the source of their stregnth. The pashtoon tribes are very cruel with the enemy simply because they are nopt very much advanced in human rights.
india hs red lines and is also very vulnerable, unless they create a National Army. They would be helpless against further attacks from the kashmiri resistance groups and if not careful, pakistan army could trap them by supporting the initial intrusion by the kashmiri resistance group. I guess that the Bombay attack surprised both Indian and Pakistani military chiefs?
Have a nice day.
Rex Minor

Posted by pakistan | Report as abusive
 

Keith:”You may be suicidal. That does not mean the generals in Rawalpindi share your mentality or your IQ for that matter. They know the day they launch one non-conventional attack (even if it’s a chem/bio strike) against US forces, is the day Pakistan ceases to exist.”

-Keith the red lines are clear, only if Pakistan’s very existence is threatened will Pakistan cross the nuclear threshold.

Posted by Umairpk

======

Then we are in agreement. There will be no nuclear retaliation against US forces for strikes against terror camps in Pakistan….unless you are going to suggest that AQ and Taliban camps are somehow integral to the survival of Pakistan.

For that matter, by Pakistan’s own doctrine, India’s Cold Start, Indian strikes against Kashmiri training camps, a mild Indian blockade, etc. would all fall below Pakistan’s nuclear threshold.

Anyway, given that the exact delineations of such policies are usually classified, I am curious to know how you can claim such authority on the subject from the mere ramblings of one general (even if he is the SPD chief)?

You’re bluster is getting ridiculous, tiresome and repetitive. And it’s quite clear that you have no serious insight into the subject at hand.

Posted by kEiThZ | Report as abusive
 

@Rex

Mauryan kingdom of India ruled/controlled Afghan land from around 305 BC to around 50 BC. Now u can consider it whatever you want. But that happened is the truth embedded in Indian history. And the factor was as I stated the CRUELTY and correctly pointed by you that human rights were/are not known to pashtoon and were not known to Mauryans at that time. Today’s Indian Military (and not just Army) is perfectly National even by your standards as it has officers from all sections of society in more or less the correct proportion as that of in population of India. (By the way I am interested to know why you have an opinion that Indian Military is not National) So pashtoon vs Indian Military is not a good fight for both: not good for Pashtoons because they don’t want to see horrors of their lives in foreign lands; not good for India because we do not want to waste our resources on wars as Indians now very well realise that wars make all the warring parties weak. In terms of human cost no one wins a war and everyone is a loser. So India would rather continue to pursue a policy of no-first-use which would get extended to no-pre-empt. And if Pakistanis want to THINK that India does not have guts then keep on thinking if that’s what makes u happy.

For Mumbai attacks it were our politicians that were surprised but not our military as military always knew such things were inevitable to wake up foolish minds in New Delhi. And I know this because of my own family’s involvement with Indian Military. And because of Mumbai now whole Coastal Guards is under Indian Navy’s direct command (something that Indian Navy was demanding long before Mumbai), so its the politicians in New Delhi but not the soldiers on borders and coasts that are fools.

Posted by 777xxx777 | Report as abusive
 

@Rex

It would be interesting to know what Germany would do if any bomb attack in Germany is traced back to Pakistan/”Holy” Afghanistan. How would European power house react to criminal activities against itself being allowed to flourish in “Holy Lands”? Does Germany also have Retribution Plan or something?

Posted by 777xxx777 | Report as abusive
 

Guys,

In the current situation, as long as the South Asian nations keep fighting each other and cannot build consensus, the war profiteers, we all know who they are, will keep feeding all sides to line their pockets. This war between India and Pakistan is providing huge profits for Aerospace Companies on the other side of the globe.

Stupid Pakistani’s keep lining the pockets of these companies to keep their own status, while their people suffer and they have kept their own jobs by using the nxkes.

Its so sad that religion, culture and terrorism is stopping S. Asian people from unifying and realizing that they are greater than the sum of their parts if they work together, manufacture, adapt a more unified approach like the Europeans.

I get the feeling sometimes that Pakistan does not want to progress, nor modernize, nor be peaceful. They just want their nxkes and guns and keep their people poor and keep India as an enemy.

The Pakistani elite like to keep the lucrative self-employment niche of: begging/nxklear blackmail/lowlevel war with India vis a vis militantism and Kashmir.

The Elite in pakistan need to understand that they can profit much more in terms of money, if they work with India, rather than against it and work together to form a national union of nations in South Asia.

Posted by G-W | Report as abusive
 

Guys,

In the current situation, as long as the South Asian nations keep fighting each other and cannot build consensus, the war profiteers, we all know who they are, will keep feeding all sides to line their pockets. This war between India and Pakistan is providing huge profits for Aerospace Companies on the other side of the globe.

Stupid Pakistani’s keep lining the pockets of these companies to keep their own status, while their people suffer and they have kept their own jobs by using the nxkes.

Its so sad that religion, culture and terrorism is stopping S. Asian people from unifying and realizing that they are greater than the sum of their parts if they work together, manufacture, adapt a more unified approach like the Europeans.

I get the feeling sometimes that Pakistan does not want to progress, nor modernize, nor be peaceful. They just want their nxkes and guns and keep their people poor and keep India as an enemy.

The Pakistani elite like to keep the lucrative self-employment niche of: begging/nxklear blackmail/lowlevel war with India vis a vis militantism and Kashmir.

The Elite in pakistan need to understand that they can profit much more in terms of money, if they work with India, rather than against it and work together to form a national union of nations in South Asia.

Posted by G-W | Report as abusive
 

Umair, Your preposterous threats against the US are nothing more than silly farts in the wind. They have some good comedic value though, I’ll give you that!

Posted by Mortal1 | Report as abusive
 

With regards to the last post, the S. Asian countries need to push for a south asian peace commission and begin some sort of integrated, collaberative approach to work their problems out and be able to compete with the Chinese.

All peoples in S. Asian need to step back and look at the big long term picture, outside of the context of their own national squabbles and increase their focal length outside of just what they want for their own countries. The mutual benefits for neighbours should also be considered.

War is not the answer, it just divides Asians and profits outsiders. Let’s not be stooges anymore let’s work together and fix things.

Posted by G-W | Report as abusive
 

Keith:”There will be no nuclear retaliation against US forces for strikes against terror camps in Pakistan….unless you are going to suggest that AQ and Taliban camps are somehow integral to the survival of Pakistan.For that matter, by Pakistan’s own doctrine, India’s Cold Start, Indian strikes against Kashmiri training camps, a mild Indian blockade, etc. would all fall below Pakistan’s nuclear threshold. Anyway, given that the exact delineations of such policies are usually classified, I am curious to know how you can claim such authority on the subject from the mere ramblings of one general (even if he is the SPD chief)?You’re bluster is getting ridiculous, tiresome and repetitive. And it’s quite clear that you have no serious insight into the subject at hand.”

-Lets be clear that Gen. Khalid Kidwai though did spell out the redlines and nuclear threshold, but still kept it pretty vague. Which means these thresholds can vary greatly. Besides, Pakistan has made a lot of progress against terrorist groups, and nuclear proliferation records have improved, since there has been no further proliferation, nuclear command and control is excellent with nukes safely tucked away from Al-Qaida. Then why would US want to bomb a few camps and push Pakistan towards destablization?
Similarly, after Mumbai attacks PAF enhanced its vigilance and was prepared to thwart any Indian airstrikes against terrorist camps within Pakistan territory. Lets be clear that a key element of Pakistan’s nuclear doctrine is to have an effective conventional fighting force capable of neutralizing conventional threats. And also that nuclear thresholds can change very quickly in case of attacks. The day US launches one conventional strike on Pakistan with a manned aircraft or Tomahawk missile, you will loose all leverage with Pakistan. We will eat grass and get back on our feet, but the ‘double dealing’ ally Pakistan would cease all existing cooperation on counter-terrorism for ever.
Peace. And remember we do not have enmity with you, all we need to do is to live with honour and dignity and strive for prosperity.

Posted by Umairpk | Report as abusive
 

@Umair,

You seem to think that bombardment of terrorist camps will destablize pakistan. How will that happen? How is it that a few militants dicatate the stability of Pakistan. I though Pakistan has a very powerful fighting force, as you always claim, but it seems that is not so.

You seem to be indicating that militant camps in Pakistan are vital to Pakistan’s survival.

Get prepared for other countries wanting to drone Pakistan, like Germany. I am sure the Fauji’s will look the other way, as long there is money to be made.

The Fauji’s allow the camps to keep popping up, so that they can keep taking money to allow droning. This almost seems like some sort of multi-generational wealth plan to keep the Fauji’s fat and full. This seems preposterous, but what else explains the Fauji’s unwillness to take an absolute zero tolerance, but rather a selective tolerance towards militants that harm the world?

Posted by G-W | Report as abusive
 

Umairpk: “The day US launches one conventional strike on Pakistan with a manned aircraft or Tomahawk missile, you will loose all leverage with Pakistan. We will eat grass and get back on our feet, but the ‘double dealing’ ally Pakistan would cease all existing cooperation on counter-terrorism for ever”

They are hitting Pakistani citizens with their drones with impunity, while your military is helping them store their drones and launch them. Your military also launched the Swat and South Waziristan offensive very reluctantly after Hillary Clinton began to squeeze the testes of your generals. Pak military takes its orders from the Americans. And Pakistan has a lot of people who will sell their mothers if the situation demands. Double dealing and duplicity stem from that nature. It is all pretense. Your military aims at the “terrorists”, but wants to hit India. The barrel is bent. If the US hits any place inside Pakistan, there will be protests. But nothing will happen to the US. And the US is not going to hit civilian centers. They will target locations where their adversaries are hiding, which are far removed from big cities anyway. It will not matter if they are inside Pakistan or not.

Like Keith said, your country is broke beyond shape. Economic leverage is good enough to make your countrymen kneel.

Since you thump your chest so much, may be it is worth trying to see how far you will go. The US should probably hit Quetta or the shady areas in Karachi and see what Pakistan does. Let them call your bluff.

All this “eating grass” is mere talk. If that is the case your country will not be taking aid from anyone after the floods. In fact your leaders are demanding more from other countries (except from India).

Posted by KPSingh01 | Report as abusive
 

@Singh,

I don’t think at Singh, that it will destabilize Pakistan if the US selectively precision drones terrorist training camps. I think the Paks are more concerned with what leverage do they have against the U.S., India and the West, once there militants are obliterated, the excuses are finished and the cross hairs will be pointed at the liars at the top, they will will be singled out and have no excuses or any place to hide. They will be held accountable and responsible and will comply one way or another.

The hammer of U.S. resolve will demand it and it will have its way.

Pakistanis are eating grass, if Pak elite want to push this even further, there will not be even grass left, but only dirt left to eat. You cannot even live on that.

I think the west should give Pakistan a way out of this, hand over the nukes and clean up militancy, and we will lift Pakistan and elevate it to the status of a western country. India is not a threat.

In return for the nxkes, give Pakistan whatever is needed to lift them out of their hole and mentor them in proper governance. Give them technology, education, training, whatever they need.

The world opinion is closely squeezing Pakistan to a tight place with no wiggle room and time and patience is starting to run out.

The billions of dollars have poured into Pakistan, but westerners are not really that much safer. The current kid gloves approach is not working effectively, only selectively. A more comprehensive approach is needed.

Posted by G-W | Report as abusive
 

Umair
“Pakistan is here to remain, the idea of Pakistan will live, Pakistan’s use of nukes is governed by a doctrine ……”.

***I sincerely wish Pakistan lives, not just its idea, and do well.

“India might not be interested to attack or occupy Pakistan or wage a war since Pakistan is now fairly stronger a nuclear power.”
**** Cool down. I did not say anything different from what you said “Keith the red lines are clear, only if Pakistan’s very existence is threatened will Pakistan cross the nuclear threshold.”

The discussion is not about India-Pakistan (or Kashmir or Bangladesh). It is about US-Pak and what will happen if Pakistan gets desperate and attacks India, not the otherway around. I am NOT viewing it as India-Pak situation in isolation. In that case (no US involved), I repeat again that India and Pak will just growl at each other. You need to help yourself come out of 1971 scenario. Nukes are deterrent period.

“And rightly pointed out by Rex, India will take full advantage in case Pakistan is engaged in a war by another country.”
***Rex has been saying a lot of stuff and he also says he is not much aware of Indian history. I do not see what will attract India to Pakistan? Why would India lose life, see its economy nose diving and begin perpetual war with terrorists, make Kashmir the focus? You and Rex know that better. 1971 happened for several different reasns. At that time there were no nukes. India did not attack Pakistan when India had nukes but Pakistan did not. It is no brainer to see what would be India’s options. The world has invested in India and would not let India launch any operation that may escalate into a full-blown war. How difficult is that to understand?

“Today Indians say we dont have any intentions to attack Pakistan. Better to speak the truth and state that we dont have the balls to attack Pakistan. Because if you do you know what is going to happen to you.”
*** In other words this is called “nuclear deterrent”!
But you chose to use street fight language. One needs both brain and “balls”. I guess your emphasis is more on the latter.

“Before India complains about terrorism, it must look at the treatment Muslims are given in India. Treated as second class citizens, alienated, called traitors, and subjected to riots, communal violence and massacres in Gujrat and elsewhere. Add to that Kashmir dispute and terrorism is what you get. Afghanistan and Kashmir dispute, all smoking guns, LeT, Taliban trace back to Soviet Afghan war.”
**** Umair, should we run math how many Muslims in India have been killed by India vs by Pakistan-based terrorists.

I am as much of a Muslim as you are. I belong to a community about the size of Pakistan. Muslim community in Pakistan has its own problems if you think about Ahmediyas, Bengalis, Pushtoons, Muhajirs. Some of the Muslims are more literate and educated than the others in Pakistan. It is not that Pakistan has a program (except certain events) to keep them illiterate. Same holds true for Indian community. India is as diverse and the Muslims were not doing well to begin with and hence their progress is slower. casteism in India is within the same “Hindu” religion and lower casts are not doing well. Dies this not tell you that religion is not such a huge factor and the root cause of the problems need to be solved. I agree with you that Muslims are sometimes generalized as one class. But bear this in mind, not all label Muslims as traitors. I never faced this problem. I have the privilege to have friends –and lots—from all religions and the situation is more complex that a news about Gujarat riots/Babri Masjid. Gujarat was national shame, and so was the burning of Hindus in trains, and so were the killings of inncoent Sikhs in Delhi and Christians in Orissa. All commuities have faced that.

I can tell you there is more propaganda than the truth and you need to watch out if you truly care about Muslims in India. A common Muslim is not happy to support the idea of backing freedom fighters who kill innocents, including Muslims in India. I join you in supporting Kashmir cause but I do not join you in supporting these so-called “freedom fighters” who kills innocents.

Posted by rehmat | Report as abusive
 

It’s quite amusing to see that the Pakistanis who generally talk about “eating grass” are the one’s who pay no taxes & live a life luxury & extravagance, while the opnions of the one’s who have actually been eating grass for a long time (& can’t even afford that anymore), hardly matters. To give an idea, Pakistan’s PM Gilani’s annual income runs into millions & the income tax he pays: ZERO

Posted by Mortal1 | Report as abusive
 

News of Mumbai style terror plot in Europe is going to gain some heat. Unfortunately, the origin point seems to be Pakistan again. The plot has not been contained yet. No one knows where the attackers are and when they are going to carry out their mission. If that happens, Pakistan better watch out. It may not be just the US, but the whole NATO might turn against your country, shifting the war from Afghanistan into Pakistan. In addition to the war, your country might see diplomatic ties being cut off, sanctions imposed and your people punished in the bargain. There is already enough hay on the camel’s back. While you are ready to eat grass, a straw might break the back of your nation. Surrender now and save yourselves.

Posted by KPSingh01 | Report as abusive
 

@KP

Yes that’s y I asked Rex (he is European) that what will Germany do if a bombing on German land is traced back to “Holy Lands” of Afghanistan/Pakistan. Does European leader has any retribution plan? Since we should not trust all that is published so we should ask someone who is living in the lands in question. So we should wait for Rex’s answer on this before discussing this further.

Posted by 777xxx777 | Report as abusive
 

“Video Hints at Executions by Pakistanis” – NY Times

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/09/30/world/ asia/30pstan.html?_r=1&hp

Posted by Mortal1 | Report as abusive
 

“Yes that’s y I asked Rex (he is European) that what will Germany do if a bombing on German land is traced back to “Holy Lands” of Afghanistan/Pakistan.”

If you’re taking Rex Minor a.k.a Pakistan’s comments seriously, you probably have too much free time on your hands. His identity is quite suspect & the only thing that’s certain about him is that he needs a shrink.

Posted by Mortal1 | Report as abusive
 

Umair,

Since you are the ulimate Pakistani army shill, lemme ask you, what do you think about your demigods executing innocent civilians in Swat etc. (Re: NYT article above)? And please, no finger pointing at US, India, CIA, MI5, RAW, Mossad etc. Just give a straight up answer, if you can.

Posted by Mortal1 | Report as abusive
 

@Mortal
“If you’re taking Rex Minor a.k.a Pakistan’s comments seriously, you probably have too much free time on your hands. His identity is quite suspect & the only thing that’s certain about him is that he needs a shrink”

Why did u not notice the (“”) around the phrase (Holy Lands) in my quote. It is a way of satire and taunting. It is but obvious that any country has right to defend and in case of bombing in Germany the Germans will retaliate definitely. Come on man we can all have a few laughter here and there. What’s wrong with poking people living in dreamlands with doses of reality. How can someone have credibility when he (Rex) is not much aware of India’s history and still give such detailed commentary?

“And please, no finger pointing at US, India, CIA, MI5, RAW, Mossad etc.”

U have left Umair speechless. Now he will have to INVENT a new enemy. Umair, how about Saudis or Lebanese or Palestinians or may be Turks?

But for topic at hand I do not think that US will nuke Pakistan. Pakistan may be fool enough but not US. US cannot make same mistake twice. And as far as striking camps inside Pakistan, mark my words, the PA generals will lick the lady’s feet and more than allow the tomahawks to fly Pak airspace and strike the camps. But that will not change the terrorism scenario in any way. As long as US pursues the policy of maintaining enmity between India and Pakistan, US will itself continue to bleed. And I am sorry to say but somewhere down our hearts we are somewhat relieved that the US got a taste of its own medicine. And for sure US cannot continue forever in mountains so the best possible solution for US is to FORCE Pak to sign peace deal with India and end the 60 agonising years of war. And then work towards a stable democratic government in Pakistan that would cut wings of its PA to some extent. If PA is allowed to become KGB then debacle is not far away for the region.

Posted by 777xxx777 | Report as abusive
 

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/con tent/article/2010/09/28/AR2010092806354. html.

Very interesting article. I quote two portions below:

Obama: “We need to make clear to people that the cancer is in Pakistan,”

[The report] contained a pessimistic summary, noting first the gap between the civilian and military authority in Pakistan. The United States was getting nowhere fast with these guys. They were talking with Zardari, who could deliver nothing. Kayani had the power to deliver, but he refused to do much. Nobody could tell him otherwise. The bottom line was depressing: This had been a charade.

I liked the fact that the double game played by Pakistan stands exposed. I do not know if they will ever be called to account for it but their reputation is tarnished.

Rex:

“Every Pashtoon is equiped with a weapon which they make themselves, copying the Russians, chinese and the western weaponry.”

I cannot even begin to explain how illogical this statement is. The Pashtoons cannot make arms/ammunitions. They probably loot these off the NATO convoys or maybe borrow off the Pak army or purchase through corrupt arms dealers. Locally made (popularly called country arms) tend to be of very poor quality quite easily found in Eastern UP, Bihar areas.

rex:
I have even forecasted that in the next fifty years the pashtoons will have no choice but to leave their bunkers and roll out across the entire asian sub-continent. The Indian army would then have the possibility to confront these warriors, similar to their ancestors who occupied the indian sub-continent.

Your thoughts on conquest of India clearly indicate your true intentions. I have only one thing to say to that. It is very easy to destroy what some one else has built. Much tougher to build. Perhaps if u focussed ur energies on building up ur country rather than dragging down mine, we would all be better off.

Posted by nvrforgetmbai | Report as abusive
 

@nvrforgetmbai
“It is very easy to destroy what some one else has built. Much tougher to build”

Good point but pashtoons will not get it as they only want to establish so called rule of Allah and reject modern day societies. So they do not have to build anything but have to destroy only. So no point in telling a fool how wise it is to cooperate. And Pak has been exploiting this Allah force and directing them against India for long now and the menace became so big that they hit USA and Europe as well. But India and the world needs to find a way to keep them at bay because they claim to be true “thekedaars” (owners/contractors/brokers) of Islam and Muslim community and in the end the most hurt people because of them are Muslims themselves. Deeds of a few make the whole Muslim community become the target of ire, anger and suspicion of rest of the world. And equally shameless are people like Rex who would go to any length to justify any and all actions of Pashtoons/Taliban.

“I liked the fact that the double game played by Pakistan stands exposed. I do not know if they will ever be called to account for it but their reputation is tarnished. ”

You really think Pakistanis worry about their reputation or for that fact do they really have any reputation whatsoever. The people at Pak top admin lick the lady’s feet like anything to get alms in return so that Govt. and PA can remain fat and full.

Posted by 777xxx777 | Report as abusive
 

Pakistan Halts NATO Supplies to Afghanistan After Attack

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/10/01/world/ asia/01peshawar.html?hp

Posted by nvrforgetmbai | Report as abusive
 

nvrforgetmbai
“I cannot even begin to explain how illogical this statement is. The Pashtoons cannot make arms/ammunitions. They probably loot these off the NATO convoys or maybe borrow off the Pak army or purchase through corrupt arms dealers. Locally made (popularly called country arms) tend to be of very poor quality quite easily found in Eastern UP, Bihar areas.”

-Don’t mistake Darra Adam Khel, Orakzai, Khyber, Bara and Peshawar with UP and Bihar. You come here in tribal areas and ask for a gun, you name it, they have it. AK-47s Pistols etc. Pushtoon are tough fighters and remeber Charlie Wilson first accompanied an Afghan team on stinger demo, only after Afghans shot down a Soviet MI-18 Hind chopper did US Congress approved truck loads of stinger supplies to them. Its not me, its the Americans who accept Pushtoons are tough. Just for an idea, in those areas when a baby boy is born, they hold him in hands and fire a gun shot in the air so that the little soul gets familiar with the sound of a gun. In most cases they might not have food to eat, but you will find a gun and bullets in a Pushtoon house. Just FYI.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_vWTQQbK3 jM

Biggest iIlegal Arm Market in the World

Posted by Umairpk | Report as abusive
 

nvrforgetmbai

On a lighter note, if you ever want to visit Pakistan’s Northwest as a tourist please leave your “logic”. A Pushtoon does not believe in logic, they are what they are and do what they like. They dont listen to logic, don’t act according to logic. They would do things which will be completely out of logic, for example extending extraordinary hospitality to complete strangers even they will give their life to protect you. It is an honour for them to shelter and serve a guest.

Posted by Umairpk | Report as abusive
 

nvrforgetmbai

This is what I posted yesterday:
“The day US launches one conventional strike on Pakistan with a manned aircraft or Tomahawk missile, you will loose all leverage with Pakistan. We will eat grass and get back on our feet, but the ‘double dealing’ ally Pakistan would cease all existing cooperation on counter-terrorism for ever.”

-Today you have a NATO helicopter killing three Pakistani soldiers and within hours NATO supplies to Afghanistan are halted. I am sure behind the scenes all cooperation on counter-terrorism will cease as well unless Washington and Brussells are in agreement with Islamabad again.

Posted by Umairpk | Report as abusive
 

@777
To answer your questions; the Europeans would retaliate what most democrats would, with the exception of Gang Ho Brits, and that is to stregnthen their domestic security. They are unlikely to declare war on Pakistan or for that matter any other country from where the terrorist do strike!!!
Now examine your answers and the USA intellectuals, all are war mongers waiting for the opportunity to start their war machinery. If your family has a military man, then he would explain to you what sort of philosaphy hehas been drilled into. A very simple question would be if he has been taught to refuse an illegal order of his superiors. I know the history of Indian and Pakistan army since they did not refuse to shoot at their fellow citizens, neither sikhs nor Pashtoons were spared from their terror. And today Indian army is according to a nAtional code are illegaly operating in Kashmir, slaughtering fellow citizens who happen to be muslims.
Whatever, Indian politicians do to create a smoke screen they are going to face the consequences of their own actions.
Now about the rest of the comments from other participants, none of us deny that no violence can be justified. Only the States have the ultimate right to violence, but its misuse also has consequences. The Pashtoons have not invaded a foreign land nor have the kashmiris invaded Delhi, the centre of Indian power, and the Palestinians did not invade the holy land,as was claimed by the crusaders in history. These people are the victims and i have not observed from you any sympathy sympathy are a India muslim cititraining for thes people. well I can tell you, based on history the so called muslim invaders never intruded in most of the world with ferosity to conquer the foreign land but simply to destroy the evil power which was being practiced in those countries. Be it the ancient indians or the Europeans and in most case they withdrew or were driven out as soon as the kings, barons and lords came to their senses and learnt a bit of civilisation from the muslim invaders, yes the muslim invaders. Read carefully the history and do not please interpret the way the biased historians have interpretted it but with your intellect and spirtual stregntgh. The Indian maharajas had the biggest weapon known at the time, the elephants, and the muslim invaders did not come not once, twice but several times and eventualy conquered and destroyed most of the power structure of the maharajas. The Brits first task was to reinstate the staus of the maharajas and today you are witnessing the sufferings of the kashmiris with the one decision of the Maharaja. It was Indian democratic path which has rightly weakened some of the maharajas hold on the poor peasants sweat.
I have commented earlier, at the end it is the right which is going to win over the wrong. Have we not witnessed the actions of resistance groups in Europe during Hitler period, or the Napaleon time before him or for that matter of the Pashtoons during the Russian occupation of afghanistan. They were not classified ‘terrorists’, and why now all the resistance groups are being labelled as terrorists, simply because the anglo saxons categorise them and their allies have to agree with it . Well I am sorry, I have a different view of the world and follow the trail of the history and do not believe that the future is determined by one, two or many super powers. For me the supreme power is the almighty God.
You guys worship your gods and I am happy with mine. Neither the Pashtoons nor any other muslim nation is in a position to conquer another country but they have more fire power than their ancestors to destroy the centres of power which try to suppress them or destroy their people. The clash of civilisation and cultures is not what we need today. We all know that people around the world are starving and the rich are getting richer and richer particularly in the developing economies. The message of the day is the peace we all need in the global world of communities. I personaly feel pain whe I see a victim in any part of the world regardless of their nationality or ethnic background. You guys are very curious to know the nationality and the ethnic background of a humble person like me.
Let us not accept retributions or sanctions which the lady diplomat is engaged in, this is the path of evil and retributions receive retributions. Each of us have the command over ourself and each of us going to receive based on our decision. Every country should know that its security is dependant upon its posture and actions in the world. Let no one try to force their values and method of Govt. on other Nations, each of them are capable of doing so and in their own time. Human rights should be the main task and the rest is a diversion and propaganda doctrine.
Rex Minor
Ps if you guys have still a straight question, i sall try to explain my views.

Posted by pakistan | Report as abusive
 

“To answer your questions; the Europeans would retaliate what most democrats would, with the exception of Gang Ho Brits, and that is to stregnthen their domestic security. They are unlikely to declare war on Pakistan or for that matter any other country from where the terrorist do strike!!!”

Excellent point. That’s what we as a country should do as well. I think my wall along the border idea just becomes more and more appealing each time I interact with the intellect across the border.

On a separate note rex minor please use spell check. Some of what u write becomes unreadable. For e.g. These people are the victims and i have not observed from you any sympathy sympathy are a India muslim cititraining for thes people. What does this mean?

Umair, unlike you I unfortunately cannot leave my logic behind anytime. Like any typical engineer, I like to see facts, measure with numbers, test out my ideas and respond mainly to logic. I cannot use emotion to ignore facts. I do not operate that way.

Posted by nvrforgetmbai | Report as abusive
 

@Rex
“I know the history of Indian and Pakistan army since they did not refuse to shoot at their fellow citizens, neither sikhs nor Pashtoons were spared from their terror.”

Sir, recently when a large company of CRPF was killed in maoist attack then our fools in New Delhi called in Air chief for Air strikes which he PROMPTLY REFUSED. As for case of sikhs and kashmir as i said before read more of Indian history. And your philosphy of war monger is nothing but stupid commentary. I think u shud read what all i have been saying above for nukes and wars.

“I can tell you, based on history the so called muslim invaders never intruded in most of the world with ferosity to conquer the foreign land but simply to destroy the evil power which was being practiced in those countries. Be it the ancient indians or the Europeans and in most case they withdrew or were driven out as soon as the kings, barons and lords came to their senses and learnt a bit of civilisation from the muslim invaders, yes the muslim invaders. Read carefully the history and do not please interpret the way the biased historians have interpretted it but with your intellect and spirtual stregntgh. The Indian maharajas had the biggest weapon known at the time, the elephants, and the muslim invaders did not come not once, twice but several times and eventualy conquered and destroyed most of the power structure of the maharajas.”

Ha ha ha ha ha ha
You really do not know anything of India. Mughals had even greater weapon, the “tope” (kind of stationery tank firing heavy artillery). And it were Mughals (muslim invaders) who used elephants most effectively just like modern day tanks all shielded with armour. And as for civilisation one always learns so no big deal in that. But if u say muslims invaded to eradicate evils u r the most funniest guy here. Thanks for the laughter dose.

“You guys worship your gods and I am happy with mine. Neither the Pashtoons nor any other muslim nation is in a position to conquer another country but they have more fire power than their ancestors to destroy the centres of power which try to suppress them or destroy their people. The clash of civilisation and cultures is not what we need today.”

You were the one to predict that pashtoons will fight Indians in 50 years. So tell me who is war monger. An apology from ur side is expected here.

“The message of the day is the peace we all need in the global world of communities. I personaly feel pain whe I see a victim in any part of the world regardless of their nationality or ethnic background. You guys are very curious to know the nationality and the ethnic background of a humble person like me.”

Are you sure u feel pain for everyone? U never mentioned ur pain for hindu pandits being butchered by pak based groups and supported by ur pious innocent kashmiris even when, unlike Pakistan, the zone was not so heavily militarized by India in 80-90s. I m not sure of ur pain feelings. And I hope u can teach this message of peace to Pakistanis as well a little bit. Because for all practical purposes neither India and nor Pakistan will let kashmir be independent for the simple reason of presence of red dragon. So it will be good if u can give pakistanis a message that they sign a peace deal with India and formalize LOC as border so that both sides can give kashmiris peace and prosperity instead bullets and shells. And no we are not interested in ur nationality or ethnicity. U r human thats fine.

Posted by 777xxx777 | Report as abusive
 

Now Kayani has begun to saber rattle. He is asking Zardari and Gilani to do something about corruption, or else… A coup is likely because the US and NATO are losing patience and have begun to encroach Pakistan. A military take over due to emergency situation caused by the US and NATO is very likely now. It is a mystery as to what the Pak military would do after that. I am sure some generals will fly to Beijing. Or they might deliver some nukes to Iran to make things worse. 2011 will be a year where the war would spread into Pakistan.

Posted by KPSingh01 | Report as abusive
 

@777
I have lots of problems to write my comments in english, on top of that you do not understand it and then laugh at it. Do you think I have a connection with the Pakistani Generals or do you believe that Pakistan has been collecting the weaponry to put them in the museum. The people of India and Pakistan do not wish to live in peace. This is the reality and their leaders have no alternative other than to express their will. The interval period is usually wasted. The people of European countries want to live in peace and that is what has finally transpired.Even today there is no peace treaty between Germany and the allies?
Pakistan is a weak country and Iran is another one and Pashtoons today do not count at all. But it is the weakest who are the most dangerous one for themselves and for others. I would not be surprised an iota if North Korea or Iran fires the intercontinental rockets towards its enemies or Pakistan crosses the threshhold of nuclear war consequences and directly attack the Indian power base. The USA can then debate in the bunkers about the axis of evil and the Indians sitting abroad can keep on discussing the future of muslim kashmiris. History is very clear about the performance of our ancestors. or do you believe that the ww2 could not have been avoided at the end of the ww1. I would be very concerned with the injured party, your advice for Pakistan is to sign a peace agreement and others advice Iran to give up the capability of making Nukes and the Palestinians to sign the peace agreement with Israel and what about the North Korea, they should sit down in the six or eight party conference and disarm. It is the psyche of the humans to bring out their worst when they have no room to escape from the pressure. The USA was surprised when they came under attack in Perarl harbour and then with the NY tragedy. India was surprised when they were attacked from the sea and when the the kashmiris rose in stregnth disregarding the military control. How many surprises a country needs before it adjusts or like Mr Obama said resets its policies. Is India prepared to reset? This is the question of the day for India and not to become a powerhouse in the world without reflecting the centuries of civilisation nd gandhi teachings. Mosdt of the world, not in numbers but size are turning themselves away from the nukes and adopting more humane and more understanding of the needs of the masses. Not war and not invasios. I have said it before the muslim armies in the ancient did not go around to occupy territories or spread Islam as many historians project but simply to destroy the power structures of evil in countries who were victimising the minorities.
rex Minor

Posted by pakistan | Report as abusive
 

@nvr
I have hell of a problem in english spellings and then i notice your initials, you must be a genious to design a name like yours. Sorry, my advice please ignore my sentences with wrong spellsmay bwé they were not important.
Rex Minor

Posted by pakistan | Report as abusive
 

@KPSingh
Mr Kyani and his compatriots can do a very simple thing, withdraw from the so called green border they have never controlled. The Pashtoons would take care of the NATO and the USA. General kyani and his mentor Musharaf the 5th columnist from India have been shooting in their own feet for a very long time, they should withdraw to their homes in Punjab and the NATO armies would speed up their withdrawl. The Pashtoon tribes controlling the roads between Pakistan and Afghanistan have made enough money so has the Sardari/Gillani Govt. and the military establishment. The USA along with the NATO countries is financially bankrupt. There is no more to take.
They should stop their love affair, even the para military is now laughing at the Pakistan military. A para military soldier is trained to shoot down the helicopter with a straight bullet. The NATO helicopter pilot does not understand the signal of the para military, instead they go after the target from where the bullets are coming.
Iran does not require nukes from Pakistan, they ghave the Nukes. Unless ofcourse the think tank strategy planners are looking for the excuse to invent another lie.
Rex Minor

Posted by pakistan | Report as abusive
 

@777
I am even feeling pain in my a.se now let alone in my heart with the sufferings of the victims. A good day.
Rex Minor

Posted by pakistan | Report as abusive
 

@nvr
What borders are you talking about? I though the Indian PM said borders should be made irrelevant. Are you thinking of the wall between the seas or the land. What about the air how are you proposing to raise the walls in the air. no one can stop the humans when they are bent upon destruction. Even Israel has given up on having a security with a wall. The Berlin wall was torned apart from both side by the people.
Rex Minor

Posted by pakistan | Report as abusive
 

first thing I am same guy as 777xxx777 and this is the bug with Reuters that gives me different names.

@Rex
“The people of European countries want to live in peace and that is what has finally transpired.Even today there is no peace treaty between Germany and the allies?”

Don’t worry when this current crisis reaches its peak in Europe then countries like Greece, Spain start opting out of Euro and that is when Germany will loose all sense. You go on creating smaller and smaller countries in name of caring for people’s wish and in end you have deeply fragmented Europe growling at each other for economic disturbances and Germany trying to dictate all others. Even now European nations feel being dictated by Germany on their financial independence. You have political independence but are very clearly dictated by Germany when it comes to economics of the so called independent countries in Europe. Although I have very high respect for German technology but their financial strangling of its neighbours and beyond is far far more cruel than physical strangling. Just wait and watch.

And what works with X may not work with Y. Different countries may need different approaches for attaining their similar goals. But may be you believe in “my way or highway” philosophy; may be that’s why it is so difficult for you to understand the Indo-Pak region’s demographics.

“I would not be surprised an iota if North Korea or Iran fires the intercontinental rockets towards its enemies or Pakistan crosses the threshhold of nuclear war consequences and directly attack the Indian power base.”

Who is a war monger now? First u say that Pashtoons will fight Indians in 50 years and then u say this. And at the end it is me and US people who are war mongers. clap clap clap clap clap clap.

“I would be very concerned with the injured party”

You are concerned only when injured party is muslim.

“It is the psyche of the humans to bring out their worst when they have no room to escape from the pressure.”

How has India pressurised Pakistan? Beats me. Last 40 years India has never pre-empted aggression against Pakistan.

“kashmiris rose in stregnth disregarding the military control. How many surprises a country needs before it adjusts or like Mr Obama said resets its policies. Is India prepared to reset?”

No Kashmir is not surprise given the history of militancy in region. And why should India be always pushed to adjust. Muslims in India are by and large living happily and earning good money. Because some fools showed on TV an isolated case u believe all muslims are suffering. I think it is you who should investigate deep. When u don’t know much about India and Pakistan, as stated by you only, then your comments do not carry any weight and you are making yourself a laughable entity here who knows no history of India and Pakistan and who just watches idiot box and forms rigid opinions. Good Luck with such fantasies.

“I have said it before the muslim armies in the ancient did not go around to occupy territories or spread Islam as many historians project but simply to destroy the power structures of evil in countries who were victimising the minorities.”

ha ha ha ha ha ha ha
In India every single muslim ruler (shehenshah Akbar being ONLY exception) did forced conversions in India. How are you sure that the historians who say muslim rulers did bad things are wrong and historians who say muslims rulers did good are right; because I m sure u were not alive when muslim invasions took place in India? How are you so sure that muslims can never be wrong? How are you so sure that only what you think is right? How are you so sure WHAT is RIGHT? How are you so sure that it is the muslims only suffering throughout the world (at least that is what u say most of the times)?

” have hell of a problem in english spellings and then i notice your initials, you must be a genious to design a name like yours. Sorry, my advice please ignore my sentences with wrong spellsmay bwé they were not important.”

Get firefox browser from http://www.mozilla.com/ and then install an English dictionary Extension in the browser. That way in all your posts all spell mistakes will have a red underline and then u can correct all by just right clicking on misspelled word and select appropriate word from the context menu.

Anyway it seems we can never agree so let it be. Only time will tell what is RIGHT.

Peace!!

Posted by 007XXX | Report as abusive
 

“What borders are you talking about? I though the Indian PM said borders should be made irrelevant. Are you thinking of the wall between the seas or the land. What about the air how are you proposing to raise the walls in the air. no one can stop the humans when they are bent upon destruction. Even Israel has given up on having a security with a wall. The Berlin wall was torned apart from both side by the people.”

The PM is wrong then. As an Indian, I am allowed to disagree with my PM. :) benefits of an democracy, we are entitled to our opinions. Israel has almost completed the wall and the improvement in security is evident from the data: In 2002, the year before construction started, 457 Israelis were murdered; in 2009, 8 Israelis were killed in suicide attacks by Palestinians. So clearly “humans bent upon destruction” are still stopped by the wall. :) And a good monitoring system along the coast led by coast guard is quite possible.

Berlin wall was torn apart as people on both sides wanted to unite. I do not think people in India/Pak want to unite at least not for next 100 years. So lets use the wall to keep apart and maybe evolve in our different ways.

Posted by nvrforgetmbai | Report as abusive
 

The recent NATO strikes are a clear indication that the war theater is being expanded into Pakistan. Tensions are rising between US/NATO & Pakistan & the Pakistanis have started to harp about “their sovereignity” in order to prop up the bidding & extract more “aid”. They will bend for sure, it’s just about the right price.

Posted by Mortal1 | Report as abusive
 

Pakistan:
“I have said it before the muslim armies in the ancient did not go around to occupy territories or spread Islam as many historians project but simply to destroy the power structures of evil in countries who were victimising the minorities.”

**** Pakistan, how are you any different from George W. Bush who decided one day to invade Iraq for the “liberty” of Iraqis? Like you, Bush also thought that replacing “power structures of evil” is a good idea. We all know invaders—be that Muslim invasions or Christian Crusades or any other invasion—cannot be peaceful. Invasions never are and never will be peaceful. You will have tough time defending that Islam is peaceful with your approach.

You really need to sort yourself out with your mixed messages of peace and begin to respect the diversity for your own good since you are living as a minority in a foreign land.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++

Nvrforgetmbai:
Don’t you think there is a difference in the terrain in Israel-West bank and India-Pak and it is nearly impossible to seal borders with a wall?

Posted by rehmat | Report as abusive
 

Guys,

It maybe time for Singh, kayani and Obama to sit down play some golf and have a leisurely chat about the region.

All three must pledge peace and partnership in resolving all issues like Kashmir and terrorism.

Peace must happen at all costs. The alternative is more destruction and death.

Invading and destroying Pakistan is not the answer, but neither is snatching land away from India.

Some high level understandings must be in place. The U.S. needs to take Islamabad by the ear and make Kayani listen to sense.

Posted by G-W | Report as abusive
 

Nvrfgmmbai:

“The PM is wrong then. As an Indian, I am allowed to disagree with my PM. benefits of an democracy, we are entitled to our opinions. Israel has almost completed the wall and the improvement in security is evident from the data: In 2002, the year before construction started, 457 Israelis were murdered; in 2009, 8 Israelis were killed in suicide attacks by Palestinians. So clearly “humans bent upon destruction” are still stopped by the wall. And a good monitoring system along the coast led by coast guard is quite possible.

Berlin wall was torn apart as people on both sides wanted to unite. I do not think people in India/Pak want to unite at least not for next 100 years. So lets use the wall to keep apart and maybe evolve in our different ways.”

–>Sometimes I agree with that thinking. Perhaps a wall will stop the LOC incursions. I believe there are almost 60 or more a month from Pakistan.

I do believe that peace is the only answer, but I don’t think that the Pakistani’s are prepared for peace, there fore the one surefire way to keep militants at bay, is to put up a large security fence.

I see no reason why the fence can’t be torn down a few decades from now, once people come to their senses, let’s just agree that we can’t work it out and decide that we both need time to work it out and in the mean time, let’s not look at each other’s faces, because we can’t stand each other.

We are pushing Pakistan too hard for peace. Pakistani’s are at war with each other and at war with themselves. You cannot expect them to make peace with India, it is like extract blood out of a stone.

Let’s just put the issue to rest and quit dealing with it perhaps, until the Pakistani’s want peace. At the end of the day, that is what everbody wants.

Religion is getting in the way of a sensible conversation with the Pakistani’s and until they can mature to see beyond the religious lens, it is futile to deal with them, as they will not be capable of expressing a desire from the heart to be peaceful with anybody at this time.

Posted by G-W | Report as abusive
 

Rehmat:
“Don’t you think there is a difference in the terrain in Israel-West bank and India-Pak and it is nearly impossible to seal borders with a wall?”

-No one should dare to erect even a barbed wire across the line of control in the disputed region of Jammu and Kashmir let alone a wall, otherwise it would result in heavy artrillery shelling and mortar fire by Pakistan Army. Then see how tough India is to press ahead with the construction of wall without escalating into allout hostilities. A wall across India-Pak intl. border and a gap in Kashmir region will give space for infiltration leaving the wall idea silly and foolish. Logic???

Apart from terrain, even the geopolitical dynamics of Middle East and South Asia are different.
The bold step is better relations, intelligence sharing, customs and border protection, law enforcement cooperation etc.

Posted by Umairpk | Report as abusive
 

G-W:
“Sometimes I agree with that thinking. Perhaps a wall will stop the LOC incursions.”

-Only if Pakistan would allow a wall to be built across LOC, in the past even a barbed wire resulted in artrillery shelling and the construction of wall now will start another round of skirmishes.

“We are pushing Pakistan too hard for peace. Pakistani’s are at war with each other and at war with themselves.”

-Pakistan has its share of problems, a young democracy, a vibrant media, an independent judiciary, a powerful Army. Just another country like others, and in 2004 USA pushed us to send Army in tribal areas. Since then we are facing an insurgency and coping with it, crisis after crisis, wave of violent terrorist attacks, natural disaster and a weak economy. But still we are hanging in, lets not loose hope. And if you come visit Lahore, you’ll find there is still hope for peace. maybe you’ll find this country is craving for peace. But unfortunately, the potrayal is that Pakistan is a terrorist state. This perception cannot be changed overnight.

Posted by Umairpk | Report as abusive
 

@”No one should dare to erect even a barbed wire across the line of control in the disputed region of Jammu and Kashmir….” Posted by Umairpk

LMAO! Easy dude, your hormones seem to be acting up again, maybe you’re coming off a rhetorical press release from the PA. You’re really in NO position to threaten anyone. For now, just concentrate on saving your a$$es from getting bombed by US/NATO strikes.

Posted by Mortal1 | Report as abusive
 

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