Does that U.S. “retribution plan” for Pakistan still stand?

September 27, 2010

flagburningOne of the more interesting details in the advance reports of Bob Woodward’s “Obama’s Wars” is that Washington had prepared a “retribution plan” in the event of a major attack on the United States which is traced back to Pakistan.

“While no contingency plans exist for dealing militarily with a collapse of nuclear-armed Pakistan, there is ‘a retribution plan’ in place, developed by the Bush administration, if the United States suffers another 9/11-style terrorist attack,” according to the Los Angeles Times. ”That would involve bombing and missile strikes to obliterate the more than 150 al Qaeda training and staging camps known to exist, most of them in Pakistan, which presumably would suffer extensive civilian casualties.”

“Some locations might be outdated, but there would be no concern, under the plan, for who might be living there now. The retribution plan called for a brutal punishing attack on at least 150 or more associated camps,” the Times of India quoted Woodward as saying.
 
The idea that the Americans would take drastic punitive action if a major attack were traced back to Pakistan has been around for a while, and is one that worries many Pakistanis. But I’ve not seen it spelled out quite so clearly before in black-and-white.
 
Some important questions then.
 
1) Does that plan still stand?
 
2) Does it apply only to al Qaeda, or has it been updated to take account of threats from other Pakistan-based groups? 
 
Take, for example, the failed car-bombing of New York’s Times Square in May by Pakistani American Faisal Shahzad, who said he was working with the Tehrik-e-Taliban Pakistan, or Pakistani Taliban.  While mainly based in Pakistan’s tribal areas bordering Afghanistan, the Pakistani Taliban also have a strong presence in the city of Karachi, so if you want to take punitive action against them, where do you draw the line?
 
What also of other militant groups such as the al Qaeda-linked Jaish-e-Mohammed , based in Pakistan’s heartland Punjab province and with alleged connections to the 2006 “liquid bombing” plot to bring down multiple airliners over the Atlantic? Or of the Punjab-based Lashkar-e-Taiba, which in the 2008 attack on Mumbai for which it was blamed, showed it had organisational skills comparable to al Qaeda to mount a spectacular assault, and which has also been linked to overseas plots?
 
The idea that al Qaeda was somehow a unitary organisation representing a unique threat to the United States has come to look very dated since 9/11.  Does that mean the “retribution plan” has also been overtaken by events?
 
3) To what extent can Pakistan prevent Pakistan-based militants from plotting attacks on the United States, when it can’t even prevent bombings of its own cities? Does the  “retribution plan” attribute responsibility to Pakistani authorities for failing – according to the United States – to “do more” to tackle militants?
 
4) How far could Pakistan withstand U.S. punitive action even if this were limited to its tribal areas? The country is already looking pretty shaky after devastating floods and the economy is in a shambles. A shift to civilian democracy that was supposed to bring stability has been sorely undermined by weak governance, which has seen the balance of power shifting increasingly back towards the Pakistan Army. Taliban militants have been trying to exploit political instability by stoking sectarian tensions, bombing Shi’ite rallies in the cities of Lahore and Quetta this month.  And anti-Americanism is already running  high, exacerbated by public hostility to U.S. drone bombings in the tribal areas.  The risk would be that intensified U.S. bombings could increase instability in Pakistan to such an extent that Washington would end up with an even bigger security threat – a nuclear-armed country slipping out of control.
 
Of course everyone remembers former president Pervez Musharraf’s comment that Washington had threatened to bomb Pakistan back into the stone age if he did not cooperate after 9/11. But I’ve never been entirely clear what that meant.  Bombing a nuclear-armed country into a state of chaos, or indeed attempting to invade it, are unlikely policy options for Washington as it tries to extract itself from two unpopular wars while also fretting about neighbouring Iran’s own nuclear ambitions.  Yet bombing suspected al Qaeda camps in the tribal areas could simply increase instability without eradicating militancy.
 
So where does that leave the United States and its “retribution plan”? Where are the red lines that would demand an immediate and powerful U.S. reaction? Would it depend on the size of the attack, the intensity of public reaction, or electoral imperatives at the time?  Does anyone know? Does Pakistan?
 
In strategic thinking about the relationship between India and Pakistan, one of the biggest worries has always been that both countries do not know where the other’s red lines lie when it comes to the use of nuclear weapons.  Even more worrying, they think they do. That thinking probably applies too to the United States and Pakistan - that they don’t know where each other’s red lines lie – either in terms of Washington’s ability to absorb another attack, or in Pakistan’s ability to withstand the U.S. reaction.  You would have to hope that they know they don’t know, and that the “retribution plan”, if it still exists, never has to be put into practice.
(Reuters photo: Protesters burn U.S. flag in Peshawar) 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 

 

Comments

Myra,

Violence begets violence. We need to be a little more analytical than using war as an instrument of foreign policy.

If destroying 1 innocent civilians generates 10 militants and more anti-western sentiment, we have to ask ourselves, if retribution will work facing an adversary that hides behind civilians.

In the new face of the battle field the so-called enemies are much weaker, decentralized and way outarmed and operate in an assymetrical fashion, fueled by philosophy and ideals, like Al-Qaeda.

The U.S. needs to develop more precision based, small tactical, stealth based units that are more highly effective and using Gurkhas and such and accurately target and pinpoint trouble anywhere on the globe and react quickly on actionable intelligence, without incident. The use of drones has been highly successful. The war planners need to develop this philosophy of precision, where enemies can be eliminated quickly and cheaply, without mobilizing ground forces and making a large scene.

The better the U.S. can do this, the less that innocents will suffer, the less ant-western sentiment that will be generated and less likely there is any threat to destabilizing a sovereign nation like Pakistan.

Good technology, intelligence and planning is the key to delivering pinpointed retribution to militant groups anywhere. It is not acceptable that innocents suffer.

Posted by G-W | Report as abusive
 

Well attacking PK is a very wishfull thinking. But it is not going to happen. Pakistan can not afford this kind of attacks in its own territory. As far as starting a open war aganist PK, that is not going to happen. Nato knows the potential of Pakistan. I believe Pakistan has a declared policy that they wount attack any country but if they are attacked by a country or an alliance of countries then, as long as they can stand the first blow they will retaliate by firing their thermonuclear devices.

If that policy of Pakistan still holds then Nato will have to get concreate assurances from PK Generals that they wount retaliate.

Posted by agtagola | Report as abusive
 

Pakistan must remain prepared for any impending US attack, while there must be a strategic dialogue between the two countries. There must be a clear red line, and complete, clearly defined retaliation plan in case of any attack. If Pakistan cannot hit back it will be a message to India that Pakistan is an easy game. Pakistan Military should have a task force, even a unified command to analyze and anticipate such an attack, ways to thwart it, and retaliate if attacked.
As for the redlines, last time in Angoor Adda raid on sept 2008 Pakistan Military reacted sharply. This time on sept 2010, similar situation has arisen but no sharp response from Pak Army. Maybe the level of cooperation and tacit approval is involved. The question of red line is important, as US keeps pushing Pakistan beyond normal limits, it should also be prepared to absorb any potential hits too. It should be a two way traffic.

Posted by Umairpk | Report as abusive
 

I believe that the “Retribution plan” is very much intact & has been altered to factor in the TTP & other terror outfits. The “Red line” will be a successful terror attack on US soil, irrespective of the size. The retibutory strike by the US will be designed to cripple the various tarror outfits, irrespective of their location in Pakistan & needless to say, it will be devastating for Pakistan. I also hope that it never comes to that.

Posted by Mortal1 | Report as abusive
 

@Myra
Your article has a number of misstatements such as “taliban stoking secterian tensions” or “the balance of power shifting towards Pakistan army” etc and lumping karachi Pashtoons with Pakistani Taliban. Though your article does include several groups which are operating in the Pashtoon territories of afghanistan and Pakistan. Perhaps you could considered the year 2010, which is not the George W and Musharaf Din, the texan and the Indian who took over the presidency of two respective countries. Things have moved on since than, the Pakistani Army is stronger than ever before and the civilian Govt. placed by the USA in Pakistan and tolerated by the Pakistan Army is the weakest the country ever had. The Pakistan nuclear strike capability is stronger and fully automated. The aggressor, even the USA is going to receive the reciprocal response without the involvement of the Pakistani staff, i.e., no red painted telephone lines for communication within or with the outside world. The USA use of overwhelming techniques of Jamming, are equally unworkable on the mechanised system. On top of that USA is currently the weakest Super Power the world has ever seen. The USA is no longer concerned with Afghanistan, AlQuaeda or Pakistan terrorist Groups, their main concern is the soaring power of China which is fast becoming the National Security Issue, the rest is just the cover screen.
Mr Obama with his clintonian foreign policy experts and the ‘clowns’ (the four star General Mcchrystal words not mine) now gathered in the Pentagon are in shambles. Who else if not Bob Woodward to enter the arena and tell the inside story. CNN and Aljazeera are going to follow. Mr Obama is getting rid of the economic team and after Nov. 5 elections, is going to address the military chiefs and the clintonians, they have brought the guy nothing but failure after falure. He has no magical recipes in his kenyan bag which he dears very much. And now you want to remind him of the bag of worms that George W, the texan left for him. Has he not had to deal with lots of disasters one after another not of his making but the leftovers from the most incompetent administration that the USA has ever been. How much can you accomplish with a General in Afghanistan who is a cancer patient. Even collin Powel told a lie during his illness and then left?
Why should a terrorist group attack the USA when numerous easy targets are now available to them throughout the world. The USA has also no interest to take a military venture towards Iran, the USA is simply tring to have bases near to China, in case the Chinese one day become hostile together with Russia, the bear, and act against the USA militarily.
Rex Minor
PS Have you in your memory seen Israel defying the USA and humiliating the President of the USA as we are witnessing now.

Posted by pakistan | Report as abusive
 

@Umair,

Why don’t you suggest a solution to your militant problem. If India or U.S. is attacked, should we just sit back and act like easy game too? Your state agencies continually lie, govern ineffectively and give a half-axxed effort on the war on terror and in many instances even assist the enemy, while claiming to fight it.

What should India do the next time, a brave godly “mujahideen” attacks and butchers innocent unarmed civilians in broad daylight, while they are having coffee or just shopping? Should India just be easy game and sit back?

What would you tell the people of India while their loved ones get slaughtered by Pakistani based militants?…..just sit back and eat it up?!!

That is the problem with you Fauji’s…you guys talk a big game fighting terrorists that threaten your roti, but you Fauji’s turn a blind eye to militants that attack NATO and India….this is a real problem.

You claim to be fighting terrorism, while in the same breath are complicit and allow the terrorism, as long as it fits your “strategic depth” doctrine against India and Afghanistan. You can’t claim one thing and want to keep another, for the sake of national interest. This mindset will always bring the redline more into focus than ever.

You can’t have your cake and eat it too. There will be huge price to pay for dancing with the devil.

Posted by G-W | Report as abusive
 

Rex:” The Pakistan nuclear strike capability is stronger and fully automated. The aggressor, even the USA is going to receive the reciprocal response without the involvement of the Pakistani staff”

-I agree with you, with Pakistan possessing second strike status, multiple weapons storage sites and delivery options Pakistan is able to absorb a strike and launch a counterstrike of its own. And with PALs (Permissive Action Links) and greater command and control by Strategic Plans Divisions, Pakistan’s nuclear assets remain credible and secure. Hopefully all these factors are enough to deter any external aggression.

Posted by Umairpk | Report as abusive
 

@G-W
“What should India do the next time, a brave godly “mujahideen” attacks and butchers innocent unarmed civilians in broad daylight, while they are having coffee or just shopping? Should India just be easy game and sit back?”

Come on G-W, don’t you know Islam is the religion of believers and every non-muslim is a Kaafir. And kaafirs are there to be butchered. Islam is greatest and rest all are kaafirs and deserve to be killed. India, USA, Europe, etc are all Kaafirs and hence it is legitimate for Islamic mullahs to preach hatred against them. Pakistan history books in some places nowadays very correctly teach “Bharat haraam hai” (India is unacceptable). Because India is Kaafir. C so simple it is. And Kaafirs have NO right whatsoever to defend themselves. And Taliban, Al-qaida, PA, ISI are all bogeys created by USA to defame the God made Islam. It is just a bunch of people in “Holy” lands instigating violence against Kaafirs. And since it is NOT against Law in holy Islamic lands to Kill kaafirs so their state agencies fully support these groups instead of eliminating them so as to uphold and spread Islam. What’s wrong with that? Let there be Allah’s rule everywhere and those who don’t accept shall be killed. And if Kaafirs talk of the violence by muslims against non-muslims then it is their cold war visions. And if their loved ones are killed by great Islamic forces then they should not take things seriously for the simple reason that kaafirs are not Holy muslims.
So stop asking stupid questions. U r a kaafir and should accept supremacy of Islam.

BTW, Rex, U have lectured enough on investigating deep and blowing away bogies in wind. Can you please enlighten us on the HOW TO INVESTIGATE DEEP? Thanks!!

Posted by 777xxx777 | Report as abusive
 

Will bombing the 150 sites actually impact the ability of terrorists or is it just window dressing for audience back home?

Posted by nvrforgetmbai | Report as abusive
 

Lastly, people on this site tend to over estimate the decline of USA. The facts are as follows:
The size of US GDP is $15 trillion. The second largest economy China has GDP of $5 trillion. So despite China’s higher growth rate, it will have long way to go before it catches up to the US. When u are that large then many sins including their large deficit tends to be forgotten.

US spends $550bn annually on its military more than next 14 countries combined. Given size of defense budget, a few billion of aid to Pakistan is unlikely to break their backs.

The greatest strength of the US lies in its diversity and ability to attract, absorb and integrate immigrants from all across the world. This leads to high level of entrepreneurship and innovation – companies like Google, Apple etc.

While they are licking their wounds in Afghanistan and Iraq, it would be unwise to underestimate the country and its ability to bounce back from this disaster.

Posted by nvrforgetmbai | Report as abusive
 

Starting on a lighter note, reading the post, I was initially amused that there was no India Pakistan nexus – till I came to the last para. Myra lived up to her reputation – everything at some point or other must some sort of India – Pakistan angle, no matter how vague.

True to type again – Umair’s main point about the plan is that it will send India a wrong signal about Pakistan!!! Then of course he goes on how Pakistan is the, (sorry, that shuld read) THE, nuclear power capable of withstanding all comers under all circumstances and will deliver the knock out punch to anyone and everyone.

It doesn’t get funnier.

The cake must of course go to this gem “On top of that USA is currently the weakest Super Power the world has ever seen.” (Rex) It is still a super power with enough clout and firepower to overwhelm most any country in the world. Which category will one put Pakistan in – potential super power, wannabe super power, or just power, no power, or migraine?

As far as I know the current no 2 world power will take another 40 years to catch up. How weak is that?

Posted by DaraIndia | Report as abusive
 

Atleast Pakistan is not Iraq or Afghanistan, if attacked Pakistan can,must and will retaliate with full force.

777
“Islam is the religion of believers and every non-muslim is a Kaafir. And kaafirs are there to be butchered. Islam is greatest and rest all are kaafirs and deserve to be killed. ”

-No sir, you are wrong. Islam is a religion of peace that does not preach the killing of innocents. The topic under discussion is that If US has plans to attack Pakistan and its potential outcome. For Pakistan it is a simple case of external aggression, it doesnt matter who you are. If you attack us, we will hit back. If you have a problem with us, come knock our door, we will open our house let you in, serve you and sit down talk and listen, try to sort it out. Choice is yours, you want to fight or you want to negotiate. I have always beleived that nuclear weapons act as deterrent, balance of power sets an equilibrium, when two powers are equal militarily or economically, one party knows that delivering a punch to the other would leave its own noose bloody. In case of Iraq and Afghanistan US did not hesitate, againts Pakistan US would have to think twice.
While a US naval carrier strike group would be on standby to sieze Pakistan’s nuclear weapons, in such a scenario intelligence estimates fail to predict if the mission will be a success or failure. Toying with Pakistan’s soveringty is like playing with fire. It doesnt seem to be a good idea for US or India either. If Pakistan has to stop India, it would have to stop US first.

Posted by Umairpk | Report as abusive
 

@DaraIndia wrote:
“It (US) is still a super power with enough clout and firepower to overwhelm most any country in the world.”

- The US has almost lost to a rag tag lightly armed Taliban in Afghanistan. IED attacks, post traumatic stress, now soldiers are turning to locals for hashish. Atleast after a terrified day they can smoke and sleep at night. Super power huh? come on! They couldnt even overpower the province of Kandahar’s few districts part of one of poorest country of the world, let alone others. BTW I have admiration for USA and its people and for anyone else, we have no enmity with anyone. We would only like to live with honour and dignity. Thats it!

Posted by Umairpk | Report as abusive
 

As per Lt. Gen Khalid DG Strategic Force Command, following are the redlines of use of nuclear weapons by Pakistan:

In India Pakistan conflict:

1. India moves to destroy a large portion of Pakistan Armed Forces.
2. India captures large amount of Pakistan territory.
3. India enforces a naval blockade of Pakistani ports or choke economically (include water problem).

These are thr rough red lines, I would get the pdf document study by a think tank and share when i find. But this is more or less an Idea of the redlines that exists and if anyone crosses them Pakistan would prepare for a nuclear strike (hypothetical scenario). Much of it stands true for US as well, for Pakistan it would be a case of use them or loose them.

Posted by Umairpk | Report as abusive
 

Myra

Your questions are certainly thought provoking:

1) Does that plan still stand?

2) Does it apply only to al Qaeda, or has it been updated to take account of threats from other Pakistan-based groups?

It would be a good idea to also discuss what potential contingency plans does Pakistan have. Lets be clear that Pakistan’s Strategic Plans Division/Strategic Force Command of the Army incharge of ballistic missiles and nuclear warheads as well as National Command Authority have also evolved in last 5 years. I am sure a lot of scenarios are dealt with and Pakistan is better prepared to deal with anything. So bring it on!

Pakistan’s nuclear doctrine is primarily based on US nuclear doctrine – intended to neutralize conventional superiority, first use and willingness to have tactical use of nuclear weapons.

PURPOSES:
1. Strategic Equalizer of Power Asymmetry
2. Deterrent against Conventional War
3. Facilitator of Asymmetric Warfare
4. Security Guarantor in Absence of Ally Support
5. Instrument to Legitimize Military Power etc.

While Pakistan should continue to work against terrorist groups, there should be clear message that any attack on Pakistan would be intolerable and unacceptable and will be punished.

Posted by Umairpk | Report as abusive
 

There are people who are surprised to see today’s Germany and ask themselves who after all was the victor of the world war 2, the allies or Germany. The stregnth of a country depends upon its people, the german leaders realized this after the defeat and today’s Germany is second to none in Europe and an industrial joint in the world. The Japanese followed the same course and do not need quantification of their stregnth. Chinese have been following the same philosophy and the results are obvious. They have the fastest commuters train in the world. The USA is today on its knees, living on borrowed money from China and the good old saudis and dying the prolonged death of an elephant. Its economy mostly relied on weaponry and war machinery, the infra structure worst among the industrialised countries. Its economy and labour force rely on the green card import of humans mainly for menial jobs. On top of that they are plagued with illegal hispanic immigrants. Today a man with a kenyan father is their President, tomorrow perhaps a mexican or a cuban. With regard to India, every sixth person in the world is supposed to be an Indian. it is marching on like a turtoise with the trumpet of democracy with complete disregard for the dignity of a human,together with the caste system, the super Brahmans and the low caste flunkiers. The farmers are the poorest, unable to have a livelyhood from the leased land, whereas, the upper class receiving maximum from the so called nine percent growth per annum. The Kashmiris are not even graded yet, the sikhs were crushed with a massive military force, and other ethnic groups are going to meet the same fate if they use the tool of democracy and demonstrate against the central Govt. Pakistan is another anamoly in the mosaic, still kowtowing the declining super Power,which refused to aid Pakistan in its war with India, despite having a defence Pact. The pakistani leaders were not fully conversant with the flexibility of the english language. The CENTO pact was designed to support the USA in emergency and not the other way around. Infact, the world is now told that the USA generals gave threats to the former President in his own residence. Cooperate with the USA or stzone age. A Pashtoon General would not allow the American Generals, including Collin Powel to get away from the country if such threats are given in his home. A pashtoon is today living in the stone age. What can be worst than what they have today, the mountains and sorrounded by the USA and NATO soldiers. I am sorry Umair,Pakistan nuclear arsenal is no longer a deterrance, when India openly and the USA privately threatens Pakistani leaders. Pakistan leaders should have the courage to initiate the first strike or shut up and mind its own business, doo not get involved in foreign affairs, sack the Foreign Minister,develop its own citizens to become a NATION, provide free education and work, work and work. There are no short cuts for progress, uniting the citizens with a sense of purpose and not slogans. India is the adversary but not the enemy. Most of the Indian people are struggling to even have a single days meal. Their middle class lives on junk food and with diabatese, the highest in the world. I am not a Pakistani citizen nor have any affiliation with India, I do not say things with anger or bitterness but with the hope that India and Pakistan have will one day find a way to overcome the historical injustices and live like neighbours.
From the USA more threats and more sanctions are going to flow towards the rest of the world. Apart from the marshal plan, we have seen nothing good from the USA, o’h yes they are experts in the industrial espionage and this has not gone undetected in Europe. The Chinese are now receiving direct from Europe the most innovative inventions and the Indian friends should compare the GDP numbers on a quarterly basis. The USA bounce back period is long gone. Sooner or later Mr Obama is going to surprise all of us and leave the whiote house prematurely, if things do not improve
Rex Minor

Posted by pakistan | Report as abusive
 

Actually, Umair how do u use your weapons against the US? I do not think u have intercontinental missiles to deliver payload to US soil. So what do u plan to do with ur weapons if US crosses red line?

Posted by nvrforgetmbai | Report as abusive
 

@Umairpk

“No sir, you are wrong. Islam is a religion of peace that does not preach the killing of innocents. The topic under discussion is that If US has plans to attack Pakistan and its potential outcome. For Pakistan it is a simple case of external aggression, it doesnt matter who you are. If you attack us, we will hit back. If you have a problem with us, come knock our door, we will open our house let you in, serve you and sit down talk and listen, try to sort it out. Choice is yours, you want to fight or you want to negotiate. I have always beleived that nuclear weapons act as deterrent, balance of power sets an equilibrium, when two powers are equal militarily or economically, one party knows that delivering a punch to the other would leave its own noose bloody. In case of Iraq and Afghanistan US did not hesitate, againts Pakistan US would have to think twice.”

My post above was a taunt to Rex’s description of Islam in one of the other articles. So please do not get hyper. It was Rex who said Islam is religion of believers and rest all are non-believers and will get punished on judgement day and so on, in one of the other articles. So my post above is just a taunt (satire) at him. I have myself read Quran and I know what Islam is and I have never meant a word against Islam. I agree Islam, or for that fact all religions do, preach peace and harmony, not an iota of doubt in that. Still u feel hurt then accept my deepest apologies to you.

U only replying to part of question here. U say if India/US attack Pakistan. But u did not tell what to do if another 9/11 or Mumbai traces back to Pakistan. What has Pakistan done till now to prevent another 9/11 and/or Mumbai happening. And if done then is it sufficient? Honestly tell has Pakistan done anything to prevent another Mumbai? Does India/US have a right to defend themselves or not? Do you mean that because Pak has nukes so Pak can threaten anyone and go on permitting criminal activities on its land directed against other countries? Do you think permitting and aiding criminal activities, directed against other countries, by state agencies of Pakistan is an appreciable thing? Do you think another 9/11 or Mumbai will be an appreciable thing is Pakistan?

India for long has been wanting peace. Is Pakistan ready for it? Cementing LOC as border should remove fears from Pakistan mind that India will grab its land or something like that then why ur politicians are not ready for it despite that India is more than ready for it? Don’t know about US but fear from India is completely hypothetical, rubbish, and created as a BOGEY by your state agencies and politicians so as to suck up your bloods and have heavenly lives for themselves. U r going down the path of Mynammar or may be even North Korea. I don’t think anyone is going to be foolish enough to nuke Pak, not because of Pak but because nuking Pak will certainly effect India as well and in current scenario no one wants to disturb India’s positive economic progress specially in times of recession. So ur nukes are not the deterrent it is India’s growth prospects that save Pak from any such stupid act. Nuking any country is horrible in my opinion. Why punish future generations for acts of current ones.

I hope the message of peace gets through. Break your mind’s shackles and come out and c through bogeys created by your politicians and state agencies. Why does your parliament spend 60% time on discussing hatred campaigns against India and not on discussing development in Pakistan. Picture should be clear to you. You are a nice educated guy who for most of times talk sensible (for some times EVERYONE of us lose sense in anger). But any other country like Pakistan has right to defend itself and please understand that Pakistan cannot go on allowing criminal activities on it soil directed towards other countries and escape.

“Toying with Pakistan’s soveringty is like playing with fire. It doesnt seem to be a good idea for US or India either.”

Certainly NOT for India. India is a land of Bhuddha and Mahavira so we mean friendship and not fights. Fights in past have given us nothing fruitful (I hope a day comes when pakistanis also realise this). We do not wish to waste our resources on trivial fighting. However like Pakistan, India also has legitimate right to DEFEND itself from any external threats.

Posted by 777xxx777 | Report as abusive
 

I would not be surprised if Pakistan DOES have a intercontinental ballastic missile. So that notion of Umair to strike US may be a distant truth. but of course not confirmed.

Posted by 777xxx777 | Report as abusive
 

Rex, for once I would agree with you Rex that it is the economics that make a super power and not military. USA was super power because it kept its economics going through wars. And Indians have enormous respect for Germans for their sheer superiority in technology.

India, unlike Pakistan, knows the goal is the inclusive growth and the wheel is moving in right direction. Mistakes of past should not hamper future though. If we keep bickering about past then nothing useful will come out. Current laws like making farmers a stake holder in Corporate projects in return for farmer’s land is a landmark of Indian democracy. But yes divisive voices will be shut whether someone likes it or not we don’t care. If u want to remain inside Indian democracy and fight for your rights PEACEFULLY then there can be solutions as is the current example of farmers in UP state. Only trouble is population explosion and has to be dealt with immediately. As for caste system that cannot be eradicated in one day. It takes generation. Most guys from our next generation do not worry much about caste but yes we cannot just kill the older ones to eradicate caste system. So just wait and watch.

And thanks for FIRST time saying India is not enemy to Pakistan although I would argue to your adversary impression.

Posted by 777xxx777 | Report as abusive
 

777xxx777,
My sense is that Pak does not have ICBM so if US attacks them, they will retaliate by nuking India. Waiting for someone to confirm the same. That is what I am trying to understand.
They might try to nuke Afghanistan but honestly whats the point.

Posted by nvrforgetmbai | Report as abusive
 

I hope there are no such plans, because with the demise of the terrorists, a large number of civilians would have to lose their lives. We need to focus on uprooting the terrorists from our borders, so that this threat can be evaded.

Posted by SZaman88 | Report as abusive
 

Why is the assumption there that it will be a military plan?

The US has no interest in being embroiled in another war in the region, especially when Pakistan can be brough to its knees without ever firing a single shot. And that’s exactly what the US will do when (not if) it gets fed up with Pakistani intransigence.

At that point, you can bet that the Pakistanis themselves will take out the camps or give the US tacit permission to do the job. If you think that’s implausible, just think of how far the Predator strikes campaign has come along.

For all their bluster, even the Pakistan Army knows that Pakistan could not survive more than a week or two without foreign assistance. Merely delaying the cheques a few weeks would cause trouble for Pakistan. Sincerely, threatening to cut them off altogether would cause panic in Rawalpindi.

Posted by kEiThZ | Report as abusive
 

1) Does that plan still stand?
Based on Clinton’s statement after Shazaad’s cute stunt, I would say, Yes.

2) Does it apply only to al Qaeda, or has it been updated to take account of threats from other Pakistan-based groups?
Why would it be restricted to AQ?

3) a)To what extent can Pakistan prevent Pakistan-based militants from plotting attacks on the United States, when it can’t even prevent bombings of its own cities?
To a large extent, but cannot guarantee.

b)Does the “retribution plan” attribute responsibility to Pakistani authorities for failing – according to the United States – to “do more” to tackle militants?
All retribution is blind. You can however, expect some video footage to emerge from some caves showing PM Gilani personally directing the jihadis.

4) How far could Pakistan withstand U.S. punitive action even if this were limited to its tribal areas?

Pakistani leadership may not be able to resist calls for destroying the “allies” of the West. If the leadership succumbs to extreme domestic pressure, they will embark on a mis-adventure against India.

5) Red lines?
US: Any successful terror attack originating in Pakistan, according to Clinton.

India:
I have it from some credible sources that Mumbai was way past the red line. Indian strategic think-tank used to believe that a stable Pakistan is in it’s own interest. They no longer believe so. The consequences of this strategic overhaul would be felt over the next decade.

Pakistan:
This is a bit problematic. It is pretty much in a perpetual state of war with India. On evidence of it’s jihadi tactics against India, I’d say that Pakistan doesn’t have much faith in it’s own conventional warfare capability. The nuclear red-lines are problematic too. Pakistan HAS lost a significant amount of strategic territory to India over the years. By their own doctrine, they should have nuked India some time ago. Besides, their nuclear doctrine seems to be vulnerable to “salami tactics”.

Posted by trickey | Report as abusive
 

The US should have hit Pakistan in 2001 itself. There should have been no choice given to Musharraf. Pakistan was the real backbone of global Islamic terrorism. Afghanistan was the breeding ground for Pakistan’s radical elements. Pakistan is the root. Afghanistan is simply a branch. By attacking Afghanistan, the US only managed to remove some leaves from the branch. The root is still in tact. If the US had taken Pakistan on in 2001, where there was sufficient justification and world support, by now it would be Pakistan and not Afghanistan, that would be undergoing restructuring. The US willfully got cheated. I think now they know for sure that Pakistanis will betray anyone. It is a good lesson learned, although belatedly.

Posted by KPSingh01 | Report as abusive
 

Umair,

Please read what I have said again. The US has the firepower to obliterate most countries in the world. That it failed in Iraq and Afghanistan in its political aims is not the point. The point is it destroyed the armed might of the countries. Failure was political not militarily. It was in fact accused of reducing rubble to rubble, in case you care to remember.

I maintain, Pakistan, India and a host of countries cannot defy the US militarily without having their war machines reduced to toast. However, the problem with the US is that it has got so used to going in, pulverizing everything and then walking away leaving others to clean up the mess, that when it was left on its own in Iraq and Afghanistan, it failed miserably to achieve its political aims.

Posted by DaraIndia | Report as abusive
 

This talk of nuclear retaliation is ridiculous. Even the topic at hand (hittin a few hundred AQ camps) is not sufficient to cross Pakistan’s nuclear red-lines.

Umair,

You may be suicidal. That does not mean the generals in Rawalpindi share your mentality or your IQ for that matter.

They know the day they launch one non-conventional attack (even if it’s a chem/bio strike) against US forces, is the day Pakistan ceases to exist.

Keep in mind that US doctrine generally calls for no-first strike, but for massive and overwhelming retaliation and escalation to a nuclear response for all WMD threats. One would hope for your sake that even if things get hot, that your generals aren’t that imbecilic (to their credit, I don’t think they are….it’s just you and your bluster).

Pakistan’s response would be predictable and painful. Cut off all co-operation with NATO on Afghanistan. Stop co-operating with the US on counter-terrorism efforts. And possibly start proliferating again.

The US, of course, would then ratchet up economic pressure and push to make Pakistan a global pariah. They would also continue strikes on Pakistani territory. And given the reliance on US technology, the mere lack of spares, is quite likely to make the PAF unable to mount a credible deterrent against a few carriers parked off the coast.

That’s how it plays out if the US goes unilaterally. But more than likely they won’t. They’ll be hopping mad. They’ll call and threaten to bomb Pakistan back to the stone age…again. And Pakistan will cave (nuclear weapons and all…they had those the last time around too)…and give the US the necessary access it needs to do what needs to be done. The military will then overthrow the civilian government, blaming them for not sticking up for Pakistan’s sovereignty (after having encouraged them to cave to the US). And all will be well after that.

Posted by kEiThZ | Report as abusive
 

@trickey,

It’s interesting that you say Mumbai crossed India’s red-line.

I would dispute that argument. From my conversations with Indian diplomats, military officers, etc. they certainly don’t reflect that view.

While the attack was certainly a scar on the national psyche, most I have talked to recognize Mumbai for what it is, another step in a series of attacks directed by Pakistani authorities against India’s centres of gravity (Mumbai/economic, Bangalore/technological, Delhi/political, Jaipur/tourist, etc.). Several have stated to me that a military response in response to such a campaign would be disproportionate, prone to escalation (possibly even nuclear escalation), and possibly beyond the Indian command and decision-making structures ability to handle (because all out war is quite likely in this scenario).

What is likely though is that India is probably studying how to neutralize such threats more covertly….targetting their fund-raising and recruitment centres overseas, possibly using covert forces to disrupt them inside Pakistan, and stepping up efforts to neutralize collaborators at home.

Also, the Mumbai attackers made one huge mistake. They targetted foreigners. This now means that India has suddenly made friends with virtually every intelligence outfit in the West and will get their co-operation in cracking down on these outfits, while nicely getting to advance its narrative of Pakistan as the global epicentre of Islamist terrorism.

Notice all the visa restrictions on Pakistanis? Notice how much harsher the tone from the UK and the US has gotten of late? You can bet that the newfound kinship the West has with India (all being victims of Pakistan-based terrorism) is having some impact.

The Mumbai attackers shot Pakistanis in the foot by targetting Westerners. They ensured that every Westerner sees himself as a Mumbaikar. Coverage on CNN was almost as similar to 9/11. And I’m not exaggerating. The attackers lost their case in the court of global public opinion by their excesses.

There’s no longer much tolerance for Pakistan based terrorism. Even against India. Why? Simply put, the rest of the world has too much invested in India. These days, attacks in India will inevitably end up killing a few foreigners which means that any attack on India is just as likely to draw Western anger. For this reason, India never has to worry about Pakistan again. The rest of the world will take care of Pakistan from here on in….if for the simple reason that it’s in their best interest to do so.

Just wait until attacks in India start killing Chinese businessmen. That’s when the real fun will start for Pakistan.

Posted by kEiThZ | Report as abusive
 

Has everyone really gone insane and mad. Are we really discussing nuking some people and destroying generations. Come on don’t get so much foolish. Stop posting about the bloody nukes any further. We don’t want nukes. Nukes are dangerous for EVERYONE’s survival. Even discussing the possibility of nuking any country is sheer madness.

Posted by 777xxx777 | Report as abusive
 

@Keithz,

At the end of the day, it seems, that India, the U.S. and the world are supposed to absorb strikes and hold their sidearms in their holsters, while they get an ear or a finger cutoff, just because Pakistan has nukes.

At the end of the day, this amounts to nuclear blackmail by Pakistan. Pakistan wants to be in a convenient spot where its militants carryout attacks against India, U.S. or the west for assymetrical warfare, but at the same time, want to reserve the right to retaliate with nukes if any country chooses retribution.

It seems that Pakistan has become like North Korea, but we just don’t know or don’t want to talk about it.

Pakistan is not doing enough to stop the militants like the haqqani’s and hekmatyars. I don’t think India will ever strike Pakistan over Mumbai sized attacks, but countries should certainly consider indirect modes of retaliation, as mentioned on earlier blogs by keithz, such as seizing banking accounts of Pak military companies world wide and ceasing all formes of military and monitary aid.

Most Pakistani’s are innocent fodder in the eternal war between the Elite and Clerics of Pakistan and the West. Unfortunately, most Pakistani’s as innocent as they are, are too deep in propaganda to question their own elites and clerics.

“Just wait until attacks in India start killing Chinese businessmen. That’s when the real fun will start for Pakistan.”

–>Chinese won’t do anything. They won’t care about sacrificing a few individuals for communism, that is the cost of business to them. They still hate India a lot more and will continue anti-India encirclement.

What China fears most is a South Indian Union, which will create a manufacturing workforce larger than China’s

Posted by G-W | Report as abusive
 

@G-W
“What China fears most is a South Indian Union, which will create a manufacturing workforce larger than China’s”

I guess you mean South Asian. Yes thats true. Thats the only fear China has for now so it is in its own interest to keep the neighbours fighting and wasting their respective resources. Unfortunately Pakistanis will never get this. Not at least in near future.

Posted by 777xxx777 | Report as abusive
 

Further to my last point, that is why China is working hard to stop a south Indian Union by stoking separatist, Maoist and other Anti-India movements. Last but not least, they have given considerable effort to keep Pakistan an enemy of India. China would not stand for peace between India and Pakistan. Pakistan is easily pawning itself off for China’s interest’s.

Posted by G-W | Report as abusive
 

@777,

The silly Pakistani’s have always had an opportunity to progress, manufacture and do great things. Sadly, Pakistan, India, Bangladesh, Sri Lanka…all of these countries can achieve greatness together…eliminate terrorism and bring all of their people out of poverty and simultaneously address sovereignty issues and social issues.

So much good can be achieved by a South Asian Union, but everybody is not willing to jump on board the Indian success train, but choose instead to be pawns, whores for hire or proxies of militantism or be Chinese stooges.

Nothing personally against China, at least they are somewhat organized and have their stuff straight, even though all the humans there are equally worthless. State controlled capitalism is better than none.

The south asian countries need to look at themselves and ask what has been achieved for their people by working against each other and ask what potential has been lost.

It is never too late to look to the future and leave the past behind and choose progress. When people have jobs, financial success, some control over their destiny, many great things can be achieved for over 1.7 billion asians.

The Europeans have Union, there is no reason why the South Asians cannot put their difference aside. There is a lack of political and moral will.

Posted by G-W | Report as abusive
 

Umair,

I see that you’re back to your silly & immature nuclear breast thumping. I’m curious to know, in the hypothetical event of US jets flying over your country & targeting terrorist camps, exactly how will you use your nukes against them? And in the unfortunate event of your generals being as stupid & suicidal as you are, do you really think that Pakistan exists after such a collosal blunder?

Posted by Mortal1 | Report as abusive
 

Pakistan has had all the nukes and infrastructure even before 2001. That is why Musharraf boldy launched the Kargil offensive in 1999.

So if Pakistan can hit back at the US now in retaliation for any strikes, it could have done the same in 2001 when Armitage asked Musharraf that question. If Pakistan decided to jump ship and align itself with the US then, what makes anyone think it will not do so this time if the US attacks it?

Pakistanis generally thump their chests a lot. As days go by, the US is going to encroach more and more into Pakistan and simply destroy its militant bases. Pakistan has been weakened tremendously by its own internal chaos and instability. The floods have made things even worse. In this scenario, the US might be worried that its priorities will not be met. Before Pakistan caves in and decides not to support the US efforts anymore, it would be prudent on the part of the US to go in and take out as many militants as possible directly.

Pakistan wouldn’t do anything to the US. What might happen in a weakening Pakistan will be a split in the ranks – those who want to play it safe by aligning with the US and those who will not. The latter will be the radical side of its military. The US might drive a wedge between these two groups and create more chaos. Without support from a divided military, the militant groups will run helter-skelter. The US might simply stamp out all those randomly running elements by weakening the Pak military. It can lead to civil war like situation due to uncontrollable inflation caused by weak economy and the natural calamity.

Obama is getting desperate as well. He needs to do something concrete before closing the shop in Afghanistan. The Taliban are not coming around and so long as they rely on the Pak military not much will happen. Time is running out. Therefore, the recently launched US air strikes into Pak territory is a starting point. It will get deeper as a weakened Pakistan simply looks on. Protests will be launched and effigies will be burnt. But the US is getting desperate.

Pakistan will not dare attack the US in retaliation. There are enough in its culture who can switch sides if things tilt in ther enemy’s favor. They have been doing this since the time of Muhammad Bin Qasim. They will simply rewrite their history and duck under the table. It is a survival technique that they have perfected over centuries. Most converted to Islam to save themselves from the raiding hordes from Central Asia. So it is not new. Many Pakistanis pride themselves with their “resilience.” It is actually their flexible spines that they are referring to. They can bend over backwards if the situation demands. I would not take their claims seriously. They can be nuclear armed for as long as they want. But they will do nothing when their floor is rocking.

Posted by KPSingh01 | Report as abusive
 

G-W: “The Europeans have Union, there is no reason why the South Asians cannot put their difference aside. There is a lack of political and moral will.”

A lot of maturity is needed before reaching the status of the EU. And EU happened much after two terrible World wars and a cold war. They suffered enough to realize that unity is the best way to survive. They had been in conflict for centuries with each other prior to that. Better life, more wealth and openness has led to their union.

It is not possible in the sub-continent to make a system based on voluntary membership. There are many dividing barriers to that – religion, language, ethnicity, caste, class, illiteracy, poverty, corruption etc. In India unity was forced by forming a nation out of many diverse regions. Over the years, people have learned to tolerate each other and move on. By itself, it would not have happened. So India lucked out.

We can simply co-exist as good neighbors. Only Pakistan seems to have problem with that. All other countries seem to be getting along with us all right. There will always be issues with neighboring nations. But they can be sorted out through negotiations. Pakistan believes in using force to achieve its ends and has not learned any lesson from its past failures.

Posted by KPSingh01 | Report as abusive
 

The Strategic Studies Institute of the U.S. Army War College
Strategic Studies Institute
United States Army War College
122 Forbes AvenueCarlisle, Pennsylvania     
January 16, 2008
Pakistan’s Nuclear Future: Worries Beyond War.
Edited by Mr. Henry D.Sokolski 
 
http://www.strategicstudiesinstitute.arm y.mil/pubs/display.cfm?pubID=832 

download here:  http://www.strategicstudiesinstitute.a rmy.mil/pubs/download.cfm?q=832  

Today, Pakistan’s strategic deterrence strategy consists of five major elements:

(1) An effective conventional fighting force and the demonstrated resolve to employ it against a wide range of conventional and sub-conventional threats.
(2) A minimum nuclear deterrence doctrine and force posture.
(3) An adequate stockpile of nuclear weapons and delivery systems to provide for an assured second strike.
(4) A survivable strategic force capable of withstanding sabotage, conventional military attacks, and at least one enemy nuclear strike.
(5) A robust strategic command and control apparatus designed to ensure tight negative use control during peacetime and prompt operational readiness (positive control) at times of crisis and war.

Should India
push Pakistan to the brink—whether by attacking,
occupying, destroying, or strangling—Pakistan’s NCA
could very well decide to use nuclear weapons.

As the military crisis deepened with India
in January 2002, Kidwai told a pair of Italian physicists
that Pakistani nuclear weapons would be used only “if
the very existence of Pakistan as a state is at stake.”
Kidwai elaborated: “Nuclear weapons are aimed solely
at India. In case that deterrence fails, they will be used
if:
a. India attacks Pakistan and conquers a large part
of its territory (space threshold);
b. India destroys a large part either of its land or air
forces (military threshold);
c. India proceeds to the economic strangling of
Pakistan (economic strangling);
d. India pushes Pakistan into political destabilization
or creates a large-scale internal subversion in Pakistan
(domestic destabilization).”
Much of this applies to US as well.

Posted by Umairpk | Report as abusive
 

Keith:”You may be suicidal. That does not mean the generals in Rawalpindi share your mentality or your IQ for that matter. They know the day they launch one non-conventional attack (even if it’s a chem/bio strike) against US forces, is the day Pakistan ceases to exist.”

-Keith the red lines are clear, only if Pakistan’s very existence is threatened will Pakistan cross the nuclear threshold.

Posted by Umairpk | Report as abusive
 

@Gentlemen
Reading your comments I almost felt as if I am sitting in a military base sorrounded by several generals and staff officers discussing various scenarios of confronting the enemy with Nukes! For a moment I even imagined of a super power which is now in control of the world by policing it and punishing the culprits as and when they do not keep the peace. I then suddenly woke up and realised that you guys were talking about the declining power in the world and the country Pakistan which has just been hit by a flood of biblical dimensions, “the words of the German Foreign minister”, and for the same country yesterday a million odd dolars were collected in a local shopping centre. I thought the article was referring to the USA and Pakistan, and not India. But you guys belong to a lynching mob and i am sure if Pakistan is ever engaged in a war with any country, it should expect the intrusion of the Indian military through ther back door similar to what happened in former East Pakistan.
777 says that he has studied Quraan themn he must have also read that the God’s words” Fear me and no one else”. It is this commandment which the muslims are supposed to follow and no one can defeat them.
Let us also look at your judgement;
A number of arabs studying in Hamburg technical college, one day left for the USA , trained themselves in flying and later took the suicide mission to create the so called sept. 11 attack.
The USA under the leadership of George W went after the Bin Laden believed to be responsible for the attack, and asked the Afghanistan Govt. to hand over the arab culprit who in their view had caused the death of the americans in a single day. No proof was provided and the Afghanistan govt. refused to hand over Bin Laden. The Northern Alliance cooperated with the USA and the regime change took place.We all know the details of the invasion. The lady in the USA admin. is of the opinion that bin Laden escaped over the mountains to the Pashtoon territory so called under the control of Pakistan. Like many of you guys she also believes that ISI has been playing double game of maintaining contact on both sides of the border. The USA competent four star general recognise the hopeless situation which his ancestors equally faced centuries ago and got fired by throwing abuses at the entire military apparatus of the current administration. Someone propsed the herioc General of jewish descent to complete the mission. Throughout history the Pashtoons have never negotiated, they do not know how. They are not like the Pakistani commander who surrendered in East Pakistan and was later seen having a cup of afternoon tea with his adversary. This is precisely the dilemma, the americans have the choice to keep on fighting and die one by one or leave while they can. The choice is theirs. Even mr Karzai does not have more stemina to oppose the Pashtoon tribes who if necessary can annhilate his entire tribe. Therefore he was genuine when he said today that his own son wants to leave Afghanistan. Mind you Mr Karzai belongs to one of the stronger Pashtoon tribes in the south. Now Myra raises the spectacle of retribution by the USA against Pakistan if another attack occurs in the USA. In other words in her opinion the USA exit strategy is to obtain assurance from the so called Talibans that they would not undertake an attack on the mainland. This is a very simple requirement which Mr Karzai can arrange as long as the foreigners leave the country and agree to pay compensation to the families who have suffered casualties from the foreign troops.
No retribution is necessary for Pakistan. However, if the lady messes it up then we would be sitting here next year and discussing the tragedy.
Now with regard to Pakistan delivery system, it is an open secret that both North Korea and Pakistan have intercontinental missiles to reach most cities of the world. These countries have been partners and have shared technologies. For India to avoid the repeat of attacks by the Kashmiri groups operating outside their country is to have a dialogue with the Kashmiris and sort out the mess or let the Kashmirisbecome independent. Those who are looking at the European Union should not forget that it is the people of europe which wanted peace and no more wars. I do not notice this spirit among the Indians and Pakistanis. Both countries need to achieve a genuine democracy in their respective countries and not continue to live in the opast. There is no reason why the secular states cannot achieve the Union which we are experiencing in Europe. Mind you even during this process the slovaks separated from the checks andbelgium is most probably going to split in two, the french speaking valonians from the dutch speaking flanders:
Have a nice day.
Rex Minor

Posted by pakistan | Report as abusive
 

@Rex
“777 says that he has studied Quraan themn he must have also read that the God’s words” Fear me and no one else”. It is this commandment which the muslims are supposed to follow and no one can defeat them.”

Yes I have read it. And i advise u to read Bhagvad Gita in which Hindu Lord Krishna tell Arjun that human race must fear Lord only and no one else. So the teaching is same in Hindu and Islam religion that human race must fear the almighty (one can choose to call it by any name) only. But how does that translate into the fact that non-fearing people are unbeatable. Beats me. May be your definition of defeat is different from mine. Of course it is true that no one can suppress other one infinitely but defeats are often defined in terms of military invasions. But if you choose to define it differently then its your wish.

And talking of Pashtoons. Pashtoons would have been f****d hard in their a***s by red army of soviet had it not been for, most hated now, America and its CIA supplying large quantity of weaponry, specially anti-aircraft guns, and strategic support against soviets. How cleverly u have missed this detail in history. As for combat abilities Ireland’s IRA is/was far far superior to Pashtoons’ combat capabilities. Pashtoons can be defeated even now if Pakistan wants to.

Posted by 777xxx777 | Report as abusive
 

rexminor:
if Pakistan is ever engaged in a war with any country, it should expect the intrusion of the Indian military through ther back door

I will repeat myself from previous post for the terminally slow:

Contrary to what most Pakistanis think India is not interested repeat “NOT INTERESTED” in taking over Pakistan. BJP/RSS have accepted that fact as have most Indians. Who would want to be saddled with a cesspool of terrorism? We have plenty of poor in our country why add 160 million more especially when they come with extremism free. No thank you. We would rather you stew in your own soup. India has absolutely no desire even in our wildest dream (more like nightmare) to reunite with Pakistan.

Posted by nvrforgetmbai | Report as abusive
 

Keith,
The following article is validation of what I have been told. Straight from the strategic community:

http://in.news.yahoo.com/columnist/nitin _pai/11/solving-the-pakistan-problem

Posted by trickey | Report as abusive
 

For those who keep harping that India will take advantage and launch attacks on Pakistan if and when Pakistan is at war with any country……..please give just one example.

In fact there have been numerous such occassions, when the Pak army was committed to fighting along with the US against the Soviet occupation, again recently when it moved troops from the eastern flank to the west to take on the insurgency and Taliban in Swat recently.

The day Pakistanis and their mentors, sympathisers and friends open their eyes to the fact that India wants no part of Pakistan nor does it want Pakistan to be weak and collapse, maybe then and only then will they be able to think constructively about improving relations. For your collective information – India moved on a long time ago. Its policies are no longer Pak centric, unlike that of the Pak Army Chief, who unfortunately calls the shot in a ‘democratic’ Pakistan.

Posted by DaraIndia | Report as abusive
 

Myra,

You gave a sudden twist to the U.S. “retribution plan” for Pakistan by adding India-Pakistan red lines. Perhpas you did for your audience and you can see the effect.

It is however important to ask if India will be under attack by pakistan should US attack it. The plan proposes attacking the terrorist camps in Pakistan by the USA. It is no where enough of a threat to the existence of Pakistan and therefore will not activate Pakistan’s response against any one.

With regards to India-Pakistan, it can be safely said alomost nothing will activate the nuclear response by either country. They will just growl at each other. This is a good and bad. Good because nuclear deterrent prevents conventional wars. Bad because under the cover of nuclear deterrent, covert operations can be launched.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

nvrforgetmbai: “My sense is that Pak does not have ICBM so if US attacks them, they will retaliate by nuking India. Waiting for someone to confirm the same. That is what I am trying to understand.”
***No, Pakistan will not retaliate against India using nukes! A conventional war by the USA against hundreds of camps is not going to make Pakistanis push NUKE buttons. That is a too low a threshold for this response and is equivalent of a Samson option? Even if the USA bomb Queta, nuke buttons will not be pressed. Once Pak pushes nukes against India, you can Imagine India doing the same consistent with its no-first-attack policy and more importantly USA will do the job and Pakistan will be history. Lahore and othe towns bordering India would be safest places.

Back to the main issue: Attacking 100s of camps in Pakistan etc. in event of future attack in the USA will not solve the problem any way. Countries are becoming superpower by economic status and they can be brought down by the same tool. So why to use bombs against Pakistan when non-violence works.

Posted by rehmat | Report as abusive
 

nvrforgetmbai
Pakistan’s future ICBM Taimur is secret and is to deter threats by NATO etc, currently SHAHEEN-III with a range of 4000-4500KM and GHAURI-III are the replacements. Pakistan made very quick progress during mid 90s on ballistic missile technology.

http://www.defence.pk/forums/wmd-missile s/20154-pakistans-future-icbm-taimur.htm l

Rehmat:
“Once Pak pushes nukes against India, you can Imagine India doing the same consistent with its no-first-attack policy and more importantly USA will do the job and Pakistan will be history. Lahore and othe towns bordering India would be safest places. ”

-Pakistan is here to remain, the idea of Pakistan will live, Pakistan’s use of nukes is governed by a doctrine and certain defined thresholds with a second strike capability. Which means both an ability to absorb and withdstand a nuclear strike and launch a nuclear counterstrike.

India might not be interested to attack or occupy Pakistan or wage a war since Pakistan is now fairly stronger a nuclear power. But from Pakistani point of view a peace treaty with India cannot be signed until 16 December 2071 a 100 years after Dhaka fell. It would take a century to build some trust between the two countries after what happened in 1971.
Before India complains about terrorism, it must look at the treatment Muslims are given in India. Treated as second class citizens, alienated, called traitors, and subjected to riots, communal violence and massacres in Gujrat and elsewhere. Add to that Kashmir dispute and terrorism is what you get. Afghanistan and Kashmir dispute, all smoking guns, LeT, Taliban trace back to Soviet Afghan war.

And rightly pointed out by Rex, India will take full advantage in case Pakistan is engaged in a war by another country.

I have personally come to a conclusion that some people in India, writers, politicians, military, can be labelled as true enemies of Pakistan. Not all Indians but still a few of them, and Pakistan must deal with those enemies and neutralize them. Today Indians say we dont have any intentions to attack Pakistan. Better to speak the truth and state that we dont have the balls to attack Pakistan. Because if you do you know what is going to happen to you.

Posted by Umairpk | Report as abusive
 

nvrforgetmbai:
“Contrary to what most Pakistanis think India is not interested repeat “NOT INTERESTED” in taking over Pakistan. BJP/RSS have accepted that fact as have most Indians.”

-It is with immense pleasure to learn that after it took us to detonate 5 nuclear bombs on 28 May 1998, finally you people along with your defense minister George Fernandes at that time accepted the fact that you can’t take over Pakistan. Otherwise you were going to teach Pakistan a lesson. (words of George Fernandes after 11 May 1998).

Posted by Umairpk | Report as abusive
 

Fact check
USA is 12000 KM away from Pak. So i repeat my question, how do u retaliate to any attack by US.

“Today Indians say we dont have any intentions to attack Pakistan. Better to speak the truth and state that we dont have the balls to attack Pakistan.”

As repeated ad nauseum, we are not interested in attacking Pakistan. Would appreciate it if u culd return the sentiment.

Posted by nvrforgetmbai | Report as abusive
 
 

@777
Let me follow your definition of defeat. The NATO countries operating in Afghanistan, all of them are the defeated Nations during the world War 2, with the exception of the Brits and the USA , and therefore they are getting the biggest beating in the valleys of the Pashtoon land. You are also in a delusion to suggest in history that the USA and the CIA provided a great help to Pashtoons to beat the Russians. Every Pashtoon is equiped with a weapon which they make themselves, copying the Russians, chinese and the western weaponry. They did receive a supply of stingers and that enabled them to defend themselves against the Russians air power. Air Power has been the major headeach for them throughout history. If you believe that this help enabled them to defeat the Russians then you are living in a cuckoo land. They learn to shoot at five years age and practice to pierce the small coin with a bullet. Their snipers , one or two engage the whole platoon of marines and do not take any casualty. I wish you should see the videos taken by France 24 reporters who are sometimes immbedded with the USA marines and sometimes with the Pashtoon snipers. The USAhas taken the beating on the battle ground from the smallest number of commandoes from certain tribes, their complete force still in tact and awaiting some major engagement with the enemy and you are stating about the pakistan Army. pakistan Army as a whole does not have the metal of a national Army, I have commented earlier, and you likemany earlier commentators from Pakistan stated that the Pakistan army would be able to take over Waziristan in a matter of days. What we have witnessed is the hit and run tactics of the Americans, the NATO and Pakistan Army. They have not gained an inch of the Pashtoon land, instead as I forecasted, no Pakistan Govt. like the Afghan Govt. can now operate without the approval of the Pashtoon tribes. The Pshtoons are the worlds largest group of tribesmen numbering over sixty millions who live in the triangular shaped territory of around 250,000 sq. miles, starting from Swat,Dir in the north along the Indus and right down to baluchistan and spreading to herat, taking three fourth of today’s Afghanistan and the whole of todays Pakhtoonkhwa of Pakistan.
It is sad that the lessons of vietnam were not learnt by the USA leaders, and the reputation of the marines had to to suffer the greatest defeat in their history right in afghanistan. What a sad endfor the marines!!!
I have even forecasted that in the next fifty years the pashtoons will have no choice but to leave their bunkers and roll out across the entire asian sub-continent. The Indian army would then have the possibility to confront these warriors, similar to their ancestors who occupied the indian sub-continent.
And where the American leaders are looking for the exit you are imagining about defeating these people. I am sorry about your judgement and wishful thinking. the Nukes dfo not make America stronger than the Russians, the Chinese and even India and Pakistan. Diuring the cuban crises Mr Khuraschav had indicated to the USA president the minutes the Russians needed to destroy most of American cities. Today there are many more countries who are in a position to destroy most of the USA, and you guys still talk about the Super power?
have nice dreams and a good day.
Rex Minor

Posted by pakistan | Report as abusive
 

nvrforgetmbai
“As repeated ad nauseum, we are not interested in attacking Pakistan. Would appreciate it if u culd return the sentiment.”

-For a moment let me become an Indian and you become a Pakistani. Just keep in mind my country attacked your country about 39 years back and you lost half of your country.
But still, I state we do not intend to attack India, nor do we support non-state actors who intend to attack India. What we tend to do is to defend Pakistan from any future Indian attack.

“Fact check
USA is 12000 KM away from Pak. So i repeat my question, how do u retaliate to any attack by US. ”

-Ok, so US is 12000 KM away and sends its aircraft carrier, naval warships off the Pakistani coast and launches Tomahawk cruise missiles, USAF B-2 bombers or B-52s from high altitude will be problematic. But Pakistan could neutralize and counterattack the US Navy with C-802 anti-ship missiles, Harpoons, submarines, etc. If it is the fight for survival, everything would be done. And you know a couple of hundered US service members returning in body bags will dent their resolve.
I told you before, the resolve to put up a fight sometimes help dodge the war. Maybe US would not attack in first place. But if it does, I can assure you there will be a stand. And lets remember diego Garcia and US service members stationed there, maybe Pakistan Air Force could knock out Diego Garcia, 2200 KM south of India, a facility used by the U.S. where it operates a large naval ship and submarine support base, military air base, communications and space tracking facilities, and an anchorage for pre-positioned military supplies for regional operations aboard Military Sealift Command ships.

Posted by Umairpk | Report as abusive
 

Umair,

You lost the plot a long time ago.

Posted by DaraIndia | Report as abusive
 

Pakistan is still expending all it’s money and effort to prevent the recurrence of a four decade old scenario.
The Bangladesh loss was a totally one sided affair, which happens maybe once in a hundred years. Pakistanis can rest assured that 1971 is not repeatable.

Posted by trickey | Report as abusive
 

Wars cannot be won with missiles and nukes. They can cause damage to the enemy. But troops have to get into the ground to take advantage of the situation. Missiles help soften up the enemy.

Some Pakistanis have no maturity whatsoever. They somehow think just possessing a bunch of missiles and nukes is good enough to take on a super power. One can call a bluff with those things. But if the reality demands a strike, trust me, the US can knock the living daylights out of Pakistan. They are not going to wait for Pakistan to make strategic plans to attack Diego Garcia etc. They include all scenarios in their plans. To fight a war, one needs deep and sound economy to back it. Pakistan’s economy in a war situation can collapse in a couple of days.

Do not assume that Israel will simply sit and watch. More than India, Israel is looking at Pakistan as the worst nemesis to be leveled. All Pakistan’s missiles are North Korean made. It costs a lot of money to make them and maintain them. Pakistan’s donors are going to demand that their money not be spent on those things.

But dream on. It is entertaining.

Posted by KPSingh01 | Report as abusive
 

@Rex
You seem to be far too much impressed by Pashtoons only because of their 100 years of history and probably of them being Muslim as well. But you did not answer my original question: how does non-fearing makes someone unbeatable. It is correct that Lord says that human race should fear the almighty only but how does that convert them to unbeatable beings? Pashtoon example does not convince me..just 100 years of history is not something to boast about.

And by your definition of defeat there is not a single human tribe on face of earth that can be controlled for long. So whether humans fear God or not all of them are unbeatable. So again it beatable or unbeatable has nothing to do with the commandment. By your standards to what extent a country should be held up for considering a defeat? How long is long enough for you? I will accept whatever you say on this.

“The Indian army would then have the possibility to confront these warriors, similar to their ancestors who occupied the indian sub-continent.
And where the American leaders are looking for the exit you are imagining about defeating these people.”

I hope that never comes because as someone in these blogs said Indians are perfectly capable of unimaginable brutality if red lines are crossed. But from your perspective it seems you believe that Pashtoons one day will rule the asian land. Then why has that not happened till date? U r forgetting one very important thing — the terrain of Afghanistan. It is the terrain that has got them through so many wars and not any of their so called non-fearing skill or something. In history pashtoons were first defeated by Indian King Ashoka and then by Mongolian tribals lead by Attila. And common factor in both cases was CRUELITY by Ashoka and Attila. And Brits and Americans both lacked this and I have no doubt that Americans will eventually leave, I never argued that, u consider it a defeat fine then so be it. And I think Pashtoons would not want to experience the same brutality again and that too wilfully. And second is that there are no immediate economic benefits of holding Afghanistan for long so it becomes economically non-viable as well.

You are overly impressed with Pashtoons may be because of their propaganda of establishing Sharia law and of them supposedly being Allah’s own messengers or something and somewhat due to their recent history. You are right about USA that it is falling apart economically and that economic fools cannot be super powers. But if u want to fancy ur chances of Pashtoons establishing rule of Allah all over Asian sub-continent then I do not have to say who is living in cuckoo land.

Posted by 777xxx777 | Report as abusive
 

Umair,

There would be no retaliation against the U.S., unless you want total complete obliteration in return. There is always a push during these times to pull out what these guys have in the skunk works. I don’t even want to think about what would happen to Pakistan if Pakistan ever Redlined the decision to go nxuklear against the U.S. Pakistan would fall within days and surrender, but that will not be enough for them, they will invade your territory to get your nxkes, even after you surrender. They will come to disarm you. You can expect millions of refugess influxing into India to be fed.

Umair, there is no retribution against the U.S. They are the most powerful military force in the world, your country will bow to their will.

Posted by G-W | Report as abusive
 

@kpsingh
You are right wars are not won with missiles and nukes! They cause damage. But you have always overestimated the power of the USA and now Israel. Israel is the most vulnerable spot in the world, ready to commit suicide any time. This has been their history and this is going to be their future, unless their leaders learn to live with their neighbours ion peace.
You believe that the USA with an army of rifrafs can knock out the living light daylights out of pakistan? You delude yourself as many in the USA who talk about their strategic nucler force, underestimating the opposite numbers, remember “the axis of evil”? The question is how to bell the cat? I am not sure how much the Pakistani Generals consider taking on the USA, they certainly have been weak against India. India is not a reliable partner, they let down the Tamils and they over reacted within their own orders.
Pakistan main donor is the Saudi Govt. which happens to be the major donor of america and the sunni pashtoon tribes.
i guess it is childish to believ that the USA can take on another battle ground for their war machinery?
Rex Minor

Posted by pakistan | Report as abusive
 

@777
pashtons are unbeatabl, how? This has puzzled the historians going back to Bellow and Baruni. I have some idea but do not have any evidence if this is the source of their stregnth. The pashtoon tribes are very cruel with the enemy simply because they are nopt very much advanced in human rights.
india hs red lines and is also very vulnerable, unless they create a National Army. They would be helpless against further attacks from the kashmiri resistance groups and if not careful, pakistan army could trap them by supporting the initial intrusion by the kashmiri resistance group. I guess that the Bombay attack surprised both Indian and Pakistani military chiefs?
Have a nice day.
Rex Minor

Posted by pakistan | Report as abusive
 

Keith:”You may be suicidal. That does not mean the generals in Rawalpindi share your mentality or your IQ for that matter. They know the day they launch one non-conventional attack (even if it’s a chem/bio strike) against US forces, is the day Pakistan ceases to exist.”

-Keith the red lines are clear, only if Pakistan’s very existence is threatened will Pakistan cross the nuclear threshold.

Posted by Umairpk

======

Then we are in agreement. There will be no nuclear retaliation against US forces for strikes against terror camps in Pakistan….unless you are going to suggest that AQ and Taliban camps are somehow integral to the survival of Pakistan.

For that matter, by Pakistan’s own doctrine, India’s Cold Start, Indian strikes against Kashmiri training camps, a mild Indian blockade, etc. would all fall below Pakistan’s nuclear threshold.

Anyway, given that the exact delineations of such policies are usually classified, I am curious to know how you can claim such authority on the subject from the mere ramblings of one general (even if he is the SPD chief)?

You’re bluster is getting ridiculous, tiresome and repetitive. And it’s quite clear that you have no serious insight into the subject at hand.

Posted by kEiThZ | Report as abusive
 

@Rex

Mauryan kingdom of India ruled/controlled Afghan land from around 305 BC to around 50 BC. Now u can consider it whatever you want. But that happened is the truth embedded in Indian history. And the factor was as I stated the CRUELTY and correctly pointed by you that human rights were/are not known to pashtoon and were not known to Mauryans at that time. Today’s Indian Military (and not just Army) is perfectly National even by your standards as it has officers from all sections of society in more or less the correct proportion as that of in population of India. (By the way I am interested to know why you have an opinion that Indian Military is not National) So pashtoon vs Indian Military is not a good fight for both: not good for Pashtoons because they don’t want to see horrors of their lives in foreign lands; not good for India because we do not want to waste our resources on wars as Indians now very well realise that wars make all the warring parties weak. In terms of human cost no one wins a war and everyone is a loser. So India would rather continue to pursue a policy of no-first-use which would get extended to no-pre-empt. And if Pakistanis want to THINK that India does not have guts then keep on thinking if that’s what makes u happy.

For Mumbai attacks it were our politicians that were surprised but not our military as military always knew such things were inevitable to wake up foolish minds in New Delhi. And I know this because of my own family’s involvement with Indian Military. And because of Mumbai now whole Coastal Guards is under Indian Navy’s direct command (something that Indian Navy was demanding long before Mumbai), so its the politicians in New Delhi but not the soldiers on borders and coasts that are fools.

Posted by 777xxx777 | Report as abusive
 

@Rex

It would be interesting to know what Germany would do if any bomb attack in Germany is traced back to Pakistan/”Holy” Afghanistan. How would European power house react to criminal activities against itself being allowed to flourish in “Holy Lands”? Does Germany also have Retribution Plan or something?

Posted by 777xxx777 | Report as abusive
 

Guys,

In the current situation, as long as the South Asian nations keep fighting each other and cannot build consensus, the war profiteers, we all know who they are, will keep feeding all sides to line their pockets. This war between India and Pakistan is providing huge profits for Aerospace Companies on the other side of the globe.

Stupid Pakistani’s keep lining the pockets of these companies to keep their own status, while their people suffer and they have kept their own jobs by using the nxkes.

Its so sad that religion, culture and terrorism is stopping S. Asian people from unifying and realizing that they are greater than the sum of their parts if they work together, manufacture, adapt a more unified approach like the Europeans.

I get the feeling sometimes that Pakistan does not want to progress, nor modernize, nor be peaceful. They just want their nxkes and guns and keep their people poor and keep India as an enemy.

The Pakistani elite like to keep the lucrative self-employment niche of: begging/nxklear blackmail/lowlevel war with India vis a vis militantism and Kashmir.

The Elite in pakistan need to understand that they can profit much more in terms of money, if they work with India, rather than against it and work together to form a national union of nations in South Asia.

Posted by G-W | Report as abusive
 

Guys,

In the current situation, as long as the South Asian nations keep fighting each other and cannot build consensus, the war profiteers, we all know who they are, will keep feeding all sides to line their pockets. This war between India and Pakistan is providing huge profits for Aerospace Companies on the other side of the globe.

Stupid Pakistani’s keep lining the pockets of these companies to keep their own status, while their people suffer and they have kept their own jobs by using the nxkes.

Its so sad that religion, culture and terrorism is stopping S. Asian people from unifying and realizing that they are greater than the sum of their parts if they work together, manufacture, adapt a more unified approach like the Europeans.

I get the feeling sometimes that Pakistan does not want to progress, nor modernize, nor be peaceful. They just want their nxkes and guns and keep their people poor and keep India as an enemy.

The Pakistani elite like to keep the lucrative self-employment niche of: begging/nxklear blackmail/lowlevel war with India vis a vis militantism and Kashmir.

The Elite in pakistan need to understand that they can profit much more in terms of money, if they work with India, rather than against it and work together to form a national union of nations in South Asia.

Posted by G-W | Report as abusive
 

Umair, Your preposterous threats against the US are nothing more than silly farts in the wind. They have some good comedic value though, I’ll give you that!

Posted by Mortal1 | Report as abusive
 

With regards to the last post, the S. Asian countries need to push for a south asian peace commission and begin some sort of integrated, collaberative approach to work their problems out and be able to compete with the Chinese.

All peoples in S. Asian need to step back and look at the big long term picture, outside of the context of their own national squabbles and increase their focal length outside of just what they want for their own countries. The mutual benefits for neighbours should also be considered.

War is not the answer, it just divides Asians and profits outsiders. Let’s not be stooges anymore let’s work together and fix things.

Posted by G-W | Report as abusive
 

Keith:”There will be no nuclear retaliation against US forces for strikes against terror camps in Pakistan….unless you are going to suggest that AQ and Taliban camps are somehow integral to the survival of Pakistan.For that matter, by Pakistan’s own doctrine, India’s Cold Start, Indian strikes against Kashmiri training camps, a mild Indian blockade, etc. would all fall below Pakistan’s nuclear threshold. Anyway, given that the exact delineations of such policies are usually classified, I am curious to know how you can claim such authority on the subject from the mere ramblings of one general (even if he is the SPD chief)?You’re bluster is getting ridiculous, tiresome and repetitive. And it’s quite clear that you have no serious insight into the subject at hand.”

-Lets be clear that Gen. Khalid Kidwai though did spell out the redlines and nuclear threshold, but still kept it pretty vague. Which means these thresholds can vary greatly. Besides, Pakistan has made a lot of progress against terrorist groups, and nuclear proliferation records have improved, since there has been no further proliferation, nuclear command and control is excellent with nukes safely tucked away from Al-Qaida. Then why would US want to bomb a few camps and push Pakistan towards destablization?
Similarly, after Mumbai attacks PAF enhanced its vigilance and was prepared to thwart any Indian airstrikes against terrorist camps within Pakistan territory. Lets be clear that a key element of Pakistan’s nuclear doctrine is to have an effective conventional fighting force capable of neutralizing conventional threats. And also that nuclear thresholds can change very quickly in case of attacks. The day US launches one conventional strike on Pakistan with a manned aircraft or Tomahawk missile, you will loose all leverage with Pakistan. We will eat grass and get back on our feet, but the ‘double dealing’ ally Pakistan would cease all existing cooperation on counter-terrorism for ever.
Peace. And remember we do not have enmity with you, all we need to do is to live with honour and dignity and strive for prosperity.

Posted by Umairpk | Report as abusive
 

@Umair,

You seem to think that bombardment of terrorist camps will destablize pakistan. How will that happen? How is it that a few militants dicatate the stability of Pakistan. I though Pakistan has a very powerful fighting force, as you always claim, but it seems that is not so.

You seem to be indicating that militant camps in Pakistan are vital to Pakistan’s survival.

Get prepared for other countries wanting to drone Pakistan, like Germany. I am sure the Fauji’s will look the other way, as long there is money to be made.

The Fauji’s allow the camps to keep popping up, so that they can keep taking money to allow droning. This almost seems like some sort of multi-generational wealth plan to keep the Fauji’s fat and full. This seems preposterous, but what else explains the Fauji’s unwillness to take an absolute zero tolerance, but rather a selective tolerance towards militants that harm the world?

Posted by G-W | Report as abusive
 

Umairpk: “The day US launches one conventional strike on Pakistan with a manned aircraft or Tomahawk missile, you will loose all leverage with Pakistan. We will eat grass and get back on our feet, but the ‘double dealing’ ally Pakistan would cease all existing cooperation on counter-terrorism for ever”

They are hitting Pakistani citizens with their drones with impunity, while your military is helping them store their drones and launch them. Your military also launched the Swat and South Waziristan offensive very reluctantly after Hillary Clinton began to squeeze the testes of your generals. Pak military takes its orders from the Americans. And Pakistan has a lot of people who will sell their mothers if the situation demands. Double dealing and duplicity stem from that nature. It is all pretense. Your military aims at the “terrorists”, but wants to hit India. The barrel is bent. If the US hits any place inside Pakistan, there will be protests. But nothing will happen to the US. And the US is not going to hit civilian centers. They will target locations where their adversaries are hiding, which are far removed from big cities anyway. It will not matter if they are inside Pakistan or not.

Like Keith said, your country is broke beyond shape. Economic leverage is good enough to make your countrymen kneel.

Since you thump your chest so much, may be it is worth trying to see how far you will go. The US should probably hit Quetta or the shady areas in Karachi and see what Pakistan does. Let them call your bluff.

All this “eating grass” is mere talk. If that is the case your country will not be taking aid from anyone after the floods. In fact your leaders are demanding more from other countries (except from India).

Posted by KPSingh01 | Report as abusive
 

@Singh,

I don’t think at Singh, that it will destabilize Pakistan if the US selectively precision drones terrorist training camps. I think the Paks are more concerned with what leverage do they have against the U.S., India and the West, once there militants are obliterated, the excuses are finished and the cross hairs will be pointed at the liars at the top, they will will be singled out and have no excuses or any place to hide. They will be held accountable and responsible and will comply one way or another.

The hammer of U.S. resolve will demand it and it will have its way.

Pakistanis are eating grass, if Pak elite want to push this even further, there will not be even grass left, but only dirt left to eat. You cannot even live on that.

I think the west should give Pakistan a way out of this, hand over the nukes and clean up militancy, and we will lift Pakistan and elevate it to the status of a western country. India is not a threat.

In return for the nxkes, give Pakistan whatever is needed to lift them out of their hole and mentor them in proper governance. Give them technology, education, training, whatever they need.

The world opinion is closely squeezing Pakistan to a tight place with no wiggle room and time and patience is starting to run out.

The billions of dollars have poured into Pakistan, but westerners are not really that much safer. The current kid gloves approach is not working effectively, only selectively. A more comprehensive approach is needed.

Posted by G-W | Report as abusive
 

Umair
“Pakistan is here to remain, the idea of Pakistan will live, Pakistan’s use of nukes is governed by a doctrine ……”.

***I sincerely wish Pakistan lives, not just its idea, and do well.

“India might not be interested to attack or occupy Pakistan or wage a war since Pakistan is now fairly stronger a nuclear power.”
**** Cool down. I did not say anything different from what you said “Keith the red lines are clear, only if Pakistan’s very existence is threatened will Pakistan cross the nuclear threshold.”

The discussion is not about India-Pakistan (or Kashmir or Bangladesh). It is about US-Pak and what will happen if Pakistan gets desperate and attacks India, not the otherway around. I am NOT viewing it as India-Pak situation in isolation. In that case (no US involved), I repeat again that India and Pak will just growl at each other. You need to help yourself come out of 1971 scenario. Nukes are deterrent period.

“And rightly pointed out by Rex, India will take full advantage in case Pakistan is engaged in a war by another country.”
***Rex has been saying a lot of stuff and he also says he is not much aware of Indian history. I do not see what will attract India to Pakistan? Why would India lose life, see its economy nose diving and begin perpetual war with terrorists, make Kashmir the focus? You and Rex know that better. 1971 happened for several different reasns. At that time there were no nukes. India did not attack Pakistan when India had nukes but Pakistan did not. It is no brainer to see what would be India’s options. The world has invested in India and would not let India launch any operation that may escalate into a full-blown war. How difficult is that to understand?

“Today Indians say we dont have any intentions to attack Pakistan. Better to speak the truth and state that we dont have the balls to attack Pakistan. Because if you do you know what is going to happen to you.”
*** In other words this is called “nuclear deterrent”!
But you chose to use street fight language. One needs both brain and “balls”. I guess your emphasis is more on the latter.

“Before India complains about terrorism, it must look at the treatment Muslims are given in India. Treated as second class citizens, alienated, called traitors, and subjected to riots, communal violence and massacres in Gujrat and elsewhere. Add to that Kashmir dispute and terrorism is what you get. Afghanistan and Kashmir dispute, all smoking guns, LeT, Taliban trace back to Soviet Afghan war.”
**** Umair, should we run math how many Muslims in India have been killed by India vs by Pakistan-based terrorists.

I am as much of a Muslim as you are. I belong to a community about the size of Pakistan. Muslim community in Pakistan has its own problems if you think about Ahmediyas, Bengalis, Pushtoons, Muhajirs. Some of the Muslims are more literate and educated than the others in Pakistan. It is not that Pakistan has a program (except certain events) to keep them illiterate. Same holds true for Indian community. India is as diverse and the Muslims were not doing well to begin with and hence their progress is slower. casteism in India is within the same “Hindu” religion and lower casts are not doing well. Dies this not tell you that religion is not such a huge factor and the root cause of the problems need to be solved. I agree with you that Muslims are sometimes generalized as one class. But bear this in mind, not all label Muslims as traitors. I never faced this problem. I have the privilege to have friends –and lots—from all religions and the situation is more complex that a news about Gujarat riots/Babri Masjid. Gujarat was national shame, and so was the burning of Hindus in trains, and so were the killings of inncoent Sikhs in Delhi and Christians in Orissa. All commuities have faced that.

I can tell you there is more propaganda than the truth and you need to watch out if you truly care about Muslims in India. A common Muslim is not happy to support the idea of backing freedom fighters who kill innocents, including Muslims in India. I join you in supporting Kashmir cause but I do not join you in supporting these so-called “freedom fighters” who kills innocents.

Posted by rehmat | Report as abusive
 

It’s quite amusing to see that the Pakistanis who generally talk about “eating grass” are the one’s who pay no taxes & live a life luxury & extravagance, while the opnions of the one’s who have actually been eating grass for a long time (& can’t even afford that anymore), hardly matters. To give an idea, Pakistan’s PM Gilani’s annual income runs into millions & the income tax he pays: ZERO

Posted by Mortal1 | Report as abusive
 

News of Mumbai style terror plot in Europe is going to gain some heat. Unfortunately, the origin point seems to be Pakistan again. The plot has not been contained yet. No one knows where the attackers are and when they are going to carry out their mission. If that happens, Pakistan better watch out. It may not be just the US, but the whole NATO might turn against your country, shifting the war from Afghanistan into Pakistan. In addition to the war, your country might see diplomatic ties being cut off, sanctions imposed and your people punished in the bargain. There is already enough hay on the camel’s back. While you are ready to eat grass, a straw might break the back of your nation. Surrender now and save yourselves.

Posted by KPSingh01 | Report as abusive
 

@KP

Yes that’s y I asked Rex (he is European) that what will Germany do if a bombing on German land is traced back to “Holy Lands” of Afghanistan/Pakistan. Does European leader has any retribution plan? Since we should not trust all that is published so we should ask someone who is living in the lands in question. So we should wait for Rex’s answer on this before discussing this further.

Posted by 777xxx777 | Report as abusive
 

“Video Hints at Executions by Pakistanis” – NY Times

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/09/30/world/ asia/30pstan.html?_r=1&hp

Posted by Mortal1 | Report as abusive
 

“Yes that’s y I asked Rex (he is European) that what will Germany do if a bombing on German land is traced back to “Holy Lands” of Afghanistan/Pakistan.”

If you’re taking Rex Minor a.k.a Pakistan’s comments seriously, you probably have too much free time on your hands. His identity is quite suspect & the only thing that’s certain about him is that he needs a shrink.

Posted by Mortal1 | Report as abusive
 

Umair,

Since you are the ulimate Pakistani army shill, lemme ask you, what do you think about your demigods executing innocent civilians in Swat etc. (Re: NYT article above)? And please, no finger pointing at US, India, CIA, MI5, RAW, Mossad etc. Just give a straight up answer, if you can.

Posted by Mortal1 | Report as abusive
 

@Mortal
“If you’re taking Rex Minor a.k.a Pakistan’s comments seriously, you probably have too much free time on your hands. His identity is quite suspect & the only thing that’s certain about him is that he needs a shrink”

Why did u not notice the (“”) around the phrase (Holy Lands) in my quote. It is a way of satire and taunting. It is but obvious that any country has right to defend and in case of bombing in Germany the Germans will retaliate definitely. Come on man we can all have a few laughter here and there. What’s wrong with poking people living in dreamlands with doses of reality. How can someone have credibility when he (Rex) is not much aware of India’s history and still give such detailed commentary?

“And please, no finger pointing at US, India, CIA, MI5, RAW, Mossad etc.”

U have left Umair speechless. Now he will have to INVENT a new enemy. Umair, how about Saudis or Lebanese or Palestinians or may be Turks?

But for topic at hand I do not think that US will nuke Pakistan. Pakistan may be fool enough but not US. US cannot make same mistake twice. And as far as striking camps inside Pakistan, mark my words, the PA generals will lick the lady’s feet and more than allow the tomahawks to fly Pak airspace and strike the camps. But that will not change the terrorism scenario in any way. As long as US pursues the policy of maintaining enmity between India and Pakistan, US will itself continue to bleed. And I am sorry to say but somewhere down our hearts we are somewhat relieved that the US got a taste of its own medicine. And for sure US cannot continue forever in mountains so the best possible solution for US is to FORCE Pak to sign peace deal with India and end the 60 agonising years of war. And then work towards a stable democratic government in Pakistan that would cut wings of its PA to some extent. If PA is allowed to become KGB then debacle is not far away for the region.

Posted by 777xxx777 | Report as abusive
 

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/con tent/article/2010/09/28/AR2010092806354. html.

Very interesting article. I quote two portions below:

Obama: “We need to make clear to people that the cancer is in Pakistan,”

[The report] contained a pessimistic summary, noting first the gap between the civilian and military authority in Pakistan. The United States was getting nowhere fast with these guys. They were talking with Zardari, who could deliver nothing. Kayani had the power to deliver, but he refused to do much. Nobody could tell him otherwise. The bottom line was depressing: This had been a charade.

I liked the fact that the double game played by Pakistan stands exposed. I do not know if they will ever be called to account for it but their reputation is tarnished.

Rex:

“Every Pashtoon is equiped with a weapon which they make themselves, copying the Russians, chinese and the western weaponry.”

I cannot even begin to explain how illogical this statement is. The Pashtoons cannot make arms/ammunitions. They probably loot these off the NATO convoys or maybe borrow off the Pak army or purchase through corrupt arms dealers. Locally made (popularly called country arms) tend to be of very poor quality quite easily found in Eastern UP, Bihar areas.

rex:
I have even forecasted that in the next fifty years the pashtoons will have no choice but to leave their bunkers and roll out across the entire asian sub-continent. The Indian army would then have the possibility to confront these warriors, similar to their ancestors who occupied the indian sub-continent.

Your thoughts on conquest of India clearly indicate your true intentions. I have only one thing to say to that. It is very easy to destroy what some one else has built. Much tougher to build. Perhaps if u focussed ur energies on building up ur country rather than dragging down mine, we would all be better off.

Posted by nvrforgetmbai | Report as abusive
 

@nvrforgetmbai
“It is very easy to destroy what some one else has built. Much tougher to build”

Good point but pashtoons will not get it as they only want to establish so called rule of Allah and reject modern day societies. So they do not have to build anything but have to destroy only. So no point in telling a fool how wise it is to cooperate. And Pak has been exploiting this Allah force and directing them against India for long now and the menace became so big that they hit USA and Europe as well. But India and the world needs to find a way to keep them at bay because they claim to be true “thekedaars” (owners/contractors/brokers) of Islam and Muslim community and in the end the most hurt people because of them are Muslims themselves. Deeds of a few make the whole Muslim community become the target of ire, anger and suspicion of rest of the world. And equally shameless are people like Rex who would go to any length to justify any and all actions of Pashtoons/Taliban.

“I liked the fact that the double game played by Pakistan stands exposed. I do not know if they will ever be called to account for it but their reputation is tarnished. ”

You really think Pakistanis worry about their reputation or for that fact do they really have any reputation whatsoever. The people at Pak top admin lick the lady’s feet like anything to get alms in return so that Govt. and PA can remain fat and full.

Posted by 777xxx777 | Report as abusive
 

Pakistan Halts NATO Supplies to Afghanistan After Attack

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/10/01/world/ asia/01peshawar.html?hp

Posted by nvrforgetmbai | Report as abusive
 

nvrforgetmbai
“I cannot even begin to explain how illogical this statement is. The Pashtoons cannot make arms/ammunitions. They probably loot these off the NATO convoys or maybe borrow off the Pak army or purchase through corrupt arms dealers. Locally made (popularly called country arms) tend to be of very poor quality quite easily found in Eastern UP, Bihar areas.”

-Don’t mistake Darra Adam Khel, Orakzai, Khyber, Bara and Peshawar with UP and Bihar. You come here in tribal areas and ask for a gun, you name it, they have it. AK-47s Pistols etc. Pushtoon are tough fighters and remeber Charlie Wilson first accompanied an Afghan team on stinger demo, only after Afghans shot down a Soviet MI-18 Hind chopper did US Congress approved truck loads of stinger supplies to them. Its not me, its the Americans who accept Pushtoons are tough. Just for an idea, in those areas when a baby boy is born, they hold him in hands and fire a gun shot in the air so that the little soul gets familiar with the sound of a gun. In most cases they might not have food to eat, but you will find a gun and bullets in a Pushtoon house. Just FYI.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_vWTQQbK3 jM

Biggest iIlegal Arm Market in the World

Posted by Umairpk | Report as abusive
 

nvrforgetmbai

On a lighter note, if you ever want to visit Pakistan’s Northwest as a tourist please leave your “logic”. A Pushtoon does not believe in logic, they are what they are and do what they like. They dont listen to logic, don’t act according to logic. They would do things which will be completely out of logic, for example extending extraordinary hospitality to complete strangers even they will give their life to protect you. It is an honour for them to shelter and serve a guest.

Posted by Umairpk | Report as abusive
 

nvrforgetmbai

This is what I posted yesterday:
“The day US launches one conventional strike on Pakistan with a manned aircraft or Tomahawk missile, you will loose all leverage with Pakistan. We will eat grass and get back on our feet, but the ‘double dealing’ ally Pakistan would cease all existing cooperation on counter-terrorism for ever.”

-Today you have a NATO helicopter killing three Pakistani soldiers and within hours NATO supplies to Afghanistan are halted. I am sure behind the scenes all cooperation on counter-terrorism will cease as well unless Washington and Brussells are in agreement with Islamabad again.

Posted by Umairpk | Report as abusive
 

@777
To answer your questions; the Europeans would retaliate what most democrats would, with the exception of Gang Ho Brits, and that is to stregnthen their domestic security. They are unlikely to declare war on Pakistan or for that matter any other country from where the terrorist do strike!!!
Now examine your answers and the USA intellectuals, all are war mongers waiting for the opportunity to start their war machinery. If your family has a military man, then he would explain to you what sort of philosaphy hehas been drilled into. A very simple question would be if he has been taught to refuse an illegal order of his superiors. I know the history of Indian and Pakistan army since they did not refuse to shoot at their fellow citizens, neither sikhs nor Pashtoons were spared from their terror. And today Indian army is according to a nAtional code are illegaly operating in Kashmir, slaughtering fellow citizens who happen to be muslims.
Whatever, Indian politicians do to create a smoke screen they are going to face the consequences of their own actions.
Now about the rest of the comments from other participants, none of us deny that no violence can be justified. Only the States have the ultimate right to violence, but its misuse also has consequences. The Pashtoons have not invaded a foreign land nor have the kashmiris invaded Delhi, the centre of Indian power, and the Palestinians did not invade the holy land,as was claimed by the crusaders in history. These people are the victims and i have not observed from you any sympathy sympathy are a India muslim cititraining for thes people. well I can tell you, based on history the so called muslim invaders never intruded in most of the world with ferosity to conquer the foreign land but simply to destroy the evil power which was being practiced in those countries. Be it the ancient indians or the Europeans and in most case they withdrew or were driven out as soon as the kings, barons and lords came to their senses and learnt a bit of civilisation from the muslim invaders, yes the muslim invaders. Read carefully the history and do not please interpret the way the biased historians have interpretted it but with your intellect and spirtual stregntgh. The Indian maharajas had the biggest weapon known at the time, the elephants, and the muslim invaders did not come not once, twice but several times and eventualy conquered and destroyed most of the power structure of the maharajas. The Brits first task was to reinstate the staus of the maharajas and today you are witnessing the sufferings of the kashmiris with the one decision of the Maharaja. It was Indian democratic path which has rightly weakened some of the maharajas hold on the poor peasants sweat.
I have commented earlier, at the end it is the right which is going to win over the wrong. Have we not witnessed the actions of resistance groups in Europe during Hitler period, or the Napaleon time before him or for that matter of the Pashtoons during the Russian occupation of afghanistan. They were not classified ‘terrorists’, and why now all the resistance groups are being labelled as terrorists, simply because the anglo saxons categorise them and their allies have to agree with it . Well I am sorry, I have a different view of the world and follow the trail of the history and do not believe that the future is determined by one, two or many super powers. For me the supreme power is the almighty God.
You guys worship your gods and I am happy with mine. Neither the Pashtoons nor any other muslim nation is in a position to conquer another country but they have more fire power than their ancestors to destroy the centres of power which try to suppress them or destroy their people. The clash of civilisation and cultures is not what we need today. We all know that people around the world are starving and the rich are getting richer and richer particularly in the developing economies. The message of the day is the peace we all need in the global world of communities. I personaly feel pain whe I see a victim in any part of the world regardless of their nationality or ethnic background. You guys are very curious to know the nationality and the ethnic background of a humble person like me.
Let us not accept retributions or sanctions which the lady diplomat is engaged in, this is the path of evil and retributions receive retributions. Each of us have the command over ourself and each of us going to receive based on our decision. Every country should know that its security is dependant upon its posture and actions in the world. Let no one try to force their values and method of Govt. on other Nations, each of them are capable of doing so and in their own time. Human rights should be the main task and the rest is a diversion and propaganda doctrine.
Rex Minor
Ps if you guys have still a straight question, i sall try to explain my views.

Posted by pakistan | Report as abusive
 

“To answer your questions; the Europeans would retaliate what most democrats would, with the exception of Gang Ho Brits, and that is to stregnthen their domestic security. They are unlikely to declare war on Pakistan or for that matter any other country from where the terrorist do strike!!!”

Excellent point. That’s what we as a country should do as well. I think my wall along the border idea just becomes more and more appealing each time I interact with the intellect across the border.

On a separate note rex minor please use spell check. Some of what u write becomes unreadable. For e.g. These people are the victims and i have not observed from you any sympathy sympathy are a India muslim cititraining for thes people. What does this mean?

Umair, unlike you I unfortunately cannot leave my logic behind anytime. Like any typical engineer, I like to see facts, measure with numbers, test out my ideas and respond mainly to logic. I cannot use emotion to ignore facts. I do not operate that way.

Posted by nvrforgetmbai | Report as abusive
 

@Rex
“I know the history of Indian and Pakistan army since they did not refuse to shoot at their fellow citizens, neither sikhs nor Pashtoons were spared from their terror.”

Sir, recently when a large company of CRPF was killed in maoist attack then our fools in New Delhi called in Air chief for Air strikes which he PROMPTLY REFUSED. As for case of sikhs and kashmir as i said before read more of Indian history. And your philosphy of war monger is nothing but stupid commentary. I think u shud read what all i have been saying above for nukes and wars.

“I can tell you, based on history the so called muslim invaders never intruded in most of the world with ferosity to conquer the foreign land but simply to destroy the evil power which was being practiced in those countries. Be it the ancient indians or the Europeans and in most case they withdrew or were driven out as soon as the kings, barons and lords came to their senses and learnt a bit of civilisation from the muslim invaders, yes the muslim invaders. Read carefully the history and do not please interpret the way the biased historians have interpretted it but with your intellect and spirtual stregntgh. The Indian maharajas had the biggest weapon known at the time, the elephants, and the muslim invaders did not come not once, twice but several times and eventualy conquered and destroyed most of the power structure of the maharajas.”

Ha ha ha ha ha ha
You really do not know anything of India. Mughals had even greater weapon, the “tope” (kind of stationery tank firing heavy artillery). And it were Mughals (muslim invaders) who used elephants most effectively just like modern day tanks all shielded with armour. And as for civilisation one always learns so no big deal in that. But if u say muslims invaded to eradicate evils u r the most funniest guy here. Thanks for the laughter dose.

“You guys worship your gods and I am happy with mine. Neither the Pashtoons nor any other muslim nation is in a position to conquer another country but they have more fire power than their ancestors to destroy the centres of power which try to suppress them or destroy their people. The clash of civilisation and cultures is not what we need today.”

You were the one to predict that pashtoons will fight Indians in 50 years. So tell me who is war monger. An apology from ur side is expected here.

“The message of the day is the peace we all need in the global world of communities. I personaly feel pain whe I see a victim in any part of the world regardless of their nationality or ethnic background. You guys are very curious to know the nationality and the ethnic background of a humble person like me.”

Are you sure u feel pain for everyone? U never mentioned ur pain for hindu pandits being butchered by pak based groups and supported by ur pious innocent kashmiris even when, unlike Pakistan, the zone was not so heavily militarized by India in 80-90s. I m not sure of ur pain feelings. And I hope u can teach this message of peace to Pakistanis as well a little bit. Because for all practical purposes neither India and nor Pakistan will let kashmir be independent for the simple reason of presence of red dragon. So it will be good if u can give pakistanis a message that they sign a peace deal with India and formalize LOC as border so that both sides can give kashmiris peace and prosperity instead bullets and shells. And no we are not interested in ur nationality or ethnicity. U r human thats fine.

Posted by 777xxx777 | Report as abusive
 

Now Kayani has begun to saber rattle. He is asking Zardari and Gilani to do something about corruption, or else… A coup is likely because the US and NATO are losing patience and have begun to encroach Pakistan. A military take over due to emergency situation caused by the US and NATO is very likely now. It is a mystery as to what the Pak military would do after that. I am sure some generals will fly to Beijing. Or they might deliver some nukes to Iran to make things worse. 2011 will be a year where the war would spread into Pakistan.

Posted by KPSingh01 | Report as abusive
 

@777
I have lots of problems to write my comments in english, on top of that you do not understand it and then laugh at it. Do you think I have a connection with the Pakistani Generals or do you believe that Pakistan has been collecting the weaponry to put them in the museum. The people of India and Pakistan do not wish to live in peace. This is the reality and their leaders have no alternative other than to express their will. The interval period is usually wasted. The people of European countries want to live in peace and that is what has finally transpired.Even today there is no peace treaty between Germany and the allies?
Pakistan is a weak country and Iran is another one and Pashtoons today do not count at all. But it is the weakest who are the most dangerous one for themselves and for others. I would not be surprised an iota if North Korea or Iran fires the intercontinental rockets towards its enemies or Pakistan crosses the threshhold of nuclear war consequences and directly attack the Indian power base. The USA can then debate in the bunkers about the axis of evil and the Indians sitting abroad can keep on discussing the future of muslim kashmiris. History is very clear about the performance of our ancestors. or do you believe that the ww2 could not have been avoided at the end of the ww1. I would be very concerned with the injured party, your advice for Pakistan is to sign a peace agreement and others advice Iran to give up the capability of making Nukes and the Palestinians to sign the peace agreement with Israel and what about the North Korea, they should sit down in the six or eight party conference and disarm. It is the psyche of the humans to bring out their worst when they have no room to escape from the pressure. The USA was surprised when they came under attack in Perarl harbour and then with the NY tragedy. India was surprised when they were attacked from the sea and when the the kashmiris rose in stregnth disregarding the military control. How many surprises a country needs before it adjusts or like Mr Obama said resets its policies. Is India prepared to reset? This is the question of the day for India and not to become a powerhouse in the world without reflecting the centuries of civilisation nd gandhi teachings. Mosdt of the world, not in numbers but size are turning themselves away from the nukes and adopting more humane and more understanding of the needs of the masses. Not war and not invasios. I have said it before the muslim armies in the ancient did not go around to occupy territories or spread Islam as many historians project but simply to destroy the power structures of evil in countries who were victimising the minorities.
rex Minor

Posted by pakistan | Report as abusive
 

@nvr
I have hell of a problem in english spellings and then i notice your initials, you must be a genious to design a name like yours. Sorry, my advice please ignore my sentences with wrong spellsmay bwé they were not important.
Rex Minor

Posted by pakistan | Report as abusive
 

@KPSingh
Mr Kyani and his compatriots can do a very simple thing, withdraw from the so called green border they have never controlled. The Pashtoons would take care of the NATO and the USA. General kyani and his mentor Musharaf the 5th columnist from India have been shooting in their own feet for a very long time, they should withdraw to their homes in Punjab and the NATO armies would speed up their withdrawl. The Pashtoon tribes controlling the roads between Pakistan and Afghanistan have made enough money so has the Sardari/Gillani Govt. and the military establishment. The USA along with the NATO countries is financially bankrupt. There is no more to take.
They should stop their love affair, even the para military is now laughing at the Pakistan military. A para military soldier is trained to shoot down the helicopter with a straight bullet. The NATO helicopter pilot does not understand the signal of the para military, instead they go after the target from where the bullets are coming.
Iran does not require nukes from Pakistan, they ghave the Nukes. Unless ofcourse the think tank strategy planners are looking for the excuse to invent another lie.
Rex Minor

Posted by pakistan | Report as abusive
 

@777
I am even feeling pain in my a.se now let alone in my heart with the sufferings of the victims. A good day.
Rex Minor

Posted by pakistan | Report as abusive
 

@nvr
What borders are you talking about? I though the Indian PM said borders should be made irrelevant. Are you thinking of the wall between the seas or the land. What about the air how are you proposing to raise the walls in the air. no one can stop the humans when they are bent upon destruction. Even Israel has given up on having a security with a wall. The Berlin wall was torned apart from both side by the people.
Rex Minor

Posted by pakistan | Report as abusive
 

first thing I am same guy as 777xxx777 and this is the bug with Reuters that gives me different names.

@Rex
“The people of European countries want to live in peace and that is what has finally transpired.Even today there is no peace treaty between Germany and the allies?”

Don’t worry when this current crisis reaches its peak in Europe then countries like Greece, Spain start opting out of Euro and that is when Germany will loose all sense. You go on creating smaller and smaller countries in name of caring for people’s wish and in end you have deeply fragmented Europe growling at each other for economic disturbances and Germany trying to dictate all others. Even now European nations feel being dictated by Germany on their financial independence. You have political independence but are very clearly dictated by Germany when it comes to economics of the so called independent countries in Europe. Although I have very high respect for German technology but their financial strangling of its neighbours and beyond is far far more cruel than physical strangling. Just wait and watch.

And what works with X may not work with Y. Different countries may need different approaches for attaining their similar goals. But may be you believe in “my way or highway” philosophy; may be that’s why it is so difficult for you to understand the Indo-Pak region’s demographics.

“I would not be surprised an iota if North Korea or Iran fires the intercontinental rockets towards its enemies or Pakistan crosses the threshhold of nuclear war consequences and directly attack the Indian power base.”

Who is a war monger now? First u say that Pashtoons will fight Indians in 50 years and then u say this. And at the end it is me and US people who are war mongers. clap clap clap clap clap clap.

“I would be very concerned with the injured party”

You are concerned only when injured party is muslim.

“It is the psyche of the humans to bring out their worst when they have no room to escape from the pressure.”

How has India pressurised Pakistan? Beats me. Last 40 years India has never pre-empted aggression against Pakistan.

“kashmiris rose in stregnth disregarding the military control. How many surprises a country needs before it adjusts or like Mr Obama said resets its policies. Is India prepared to reset?”

No Kashmir is not surprise given the history of militancy in region. And why should India be always pushed to adjust. Muslims in India are by and large living happily and earning good money. Because some fools showed on TV an isolated case u believe all muslims are suffering. I think it is you who should investigate deep. When u don’t know much about India and Pakistan, as stated by you only, then your comments do not carry any weight and you are making yourself a laughable entity here who knows no history of India and Pakistan and who just watches idiot box and forms rigid opinions. Good Luck with such fantasies.

“I have said it before the muslim armies in the ancient did not go around to occupy territories or spread Islam as many historians project but simply to destroy the power structures of evil in countries who were victimising the minorities.”

ha ha ha ha ha ha ha
In India every single muslim ruler (shehenshah Akbar being ONLY exception) did forced conversions in India. How are you sure that the historians who say muslim rulers did bad things are wrong and historians who say muslims rulers did good are right; because I m sure u were not alive when muslim invasions took place in India? How are you so sure that muslims can never be wrong? How are you so sure that only what you think is right? How are you so sure WHAT is RIGHT? How are you so sure that it is the muslims only suffering throughout the world (at least that is what u say most of the times)?

” have hell of a problem in english spellings and then i notice your initials, you must be a genious to design a name like yours. Sorry, my advice please ignore my sentences with wrong spellsmay bwé they were not important.”

Get firefox browser from http://www.mozilla.com/ and then install an English dictionary Extension in the browser. That way in all your posts all spell mistakes will have a red underline and then u can correct all by just right clicking on misspelled word and select appropriate word from the context menu.

Anyway it seems we can never agree so let it be. Only time will tell what is RIGHT.

Peace!!

Posted by 007XXX | Report as abusive
 

“What borders are you talking about? I though the Indian PM said borders should be made irrelevant. Are you thinking of the wall between the seas or the land. What about the air how are you proposing to raise the walls in the air. no one can stop the humans when they are bent upon destruction. Even Israel has given up on having a security with a wall. The Berlin wall was torned apart from both side by the people.”

The PM is wrong then. As an Indian, I am allowed to disagree with my PM. :) benefits of an democracy, we are entitled to our opinions. Israel has almost completed the wall and the improvement in security is evident from the data: In 2002, the year before construction started, 457 Israelis were murdered; in 2009, 8 Israelis were killed in suicide attacks by Palestinians. So clearly “humans bent upon destruction” are still stopped by the wall. :) And a good monitoring system along the coast led by coast guard is quite possible.

Berlin wall was torn apart as people on both sides wanted to unite. I do not think people in India/Pak want to unite at least not for next 100 years. So lets use the wall to keep apart and maybe evolve in our different ways.

Posted by nvrforgetmbai | Report as abusive
 

The recent NATO strikes are a clear indication that the war theater is being expanded into Pakistan. Tensions are rising between US/NATO & Pakistan & the Pakistanis have started to harp about “their sovereignity” in order to prop up the bidding & extract more “aid”. They will bend for sure, it’s just about the right price.

Posted by Mortal1 | Report as abusive
 

Pakistan:
“I have said it before the muslim armies in the ancient did not go around to occupy territories or spread Islam as many historians project but simply to destroy the power structures of evil in countries who were victimising the minorities.”

**** Pakistan, how are you any different from George W. Bush who decided one day to invade Iraq for the “liberty” of Iraqis? Like you, Bush also thought that replacing “power structures of evil” is a good idea. We all know invaders—be that Muslim invasions or Christian Crusades or any other invasion—cannot be peaceful. Invasions never are and never will be peaceful. You will have tough time defending that Islam is peaceful with your approach.

You really need to sort yourself out with your mixed messages of peace and begin to respect the diversity for your own good since you are living as a minority in a foreign land.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++

Nvrforgetmbai:
Don’t you think there is a difference in the terrain in Israel-West bank and India-Pak and it is nearly impossible to seal borders with a wall?

Posted by rehmat | Report as abusive
 

Guys,

It maybe time for Singh, kayani and Obama to sit down play some golf and have a leisurely chat about the region.

All three must pledge peace and partnership in resolving all issues like Kashmir and terrorism.

Peace must happen at all costs. The alternative is more destruction and death.

Invading and destroying Pakistan is not the answer, but neither is snatching land away from India.

Some high level understandings must be in place. The U.S. needs to take Islamabad by the ear and make Kayani listen to sense.

Posted by G-W | Report as abusive
 

Nvrfgmmbai:

“The PM is wrong then. As an Indian, I am allowed to disagree with my PM. benefits of an democracy, we are entitled to our opinions. Israel has almost completed the wall and the improvement in security is evident from the data: In 2002, the year before construction started, 457 Israelis were murdered; in 2009, 8 Israelis were killed in suicide attacks by Palestinians. So clearly “humans bent upon destruction” are still stopped by the wall. And a good monitoring system along the coast led by coast guard is quite possible.

Berlin wall was torn apart as people on both sides wanted to unite. I do not think people in India/Pak want to unite at least not for next 100 years. So lets use the wall to keep apart and maybe evolve in our different ways.”

–>Sometimes I agree with that thinking. Perhaps a wall will stop the LOC incursions. I believe there are almost 60 or more a month from Pakistan.

I do believe that peace is the only answer, but I don’t think that the Pakistani’s are prepared for peace, there fore the one surefire way to keep militants at bay, is to put up a large security fence.

I see no reason why the fence can’t be torn down a few decades from now, once people come to their senses, let’s just agree that we can’t work it out and decide that we both need time to work it out and in the mean time, let’s not look at each other’s faces, because we can’t stand each other.

We are pushing Pakistan too hard for peace. Pakistani’s are at war with each other and at war with themselves. You cannot expect them to make peace with India, it is like extract blood out of a stone.

Let’s just put the issue to rest and quit dealing with it perhaps, until the Pakistani’s want peace. At the end of the day, that is what everbody wants.

Religion is getting in the way of a sensible conversation with the Pakistani’s and until they can mature to see beyond the religious lens, it is futile to deal with them, as they will not be capable of expressing a desire from the heart to be peaceful with anybody at this time.

Posted by G-W | Report as abusive
 

Rehmat:
“Don’t you think there is a difference in the terrain in Israel-West bank and India-Pak and it is nearly impossible to seal borders with a wall?”

-No one should dare to erect even a barbed wire across the line of control in the disputed region of Jammu and Kashmir let alone a wall, otherwise it would result in heavy artrillery shelling and mortar fire by Pakistan Army. Then see how tough India is to press ahead with the construction of wall without escalating into allout hostilities. A wall across India-Pak intl. border and a gap in Kashmir region will give space for infiltration leaving the wall idea silly and foolish. Logic???

Apart from terrain, even the geopolitical dynamics of Middle East and South Asia are different.
The bold step is better relations, intelligence sharing, customs and border protection, law enforcement cooperation etc.

Posted by Umairpk | Report as abusive
 

G-W:
“Sometimes I agree with that thinking. Perhaps a wall will stop the LOC incursions.”

-Only if Pakistan would allow a wall to be built across LOC, in the past even a barbed wire resulted in artrillery shelling and the construction of wall now will start another round of skirmishes.

“We are pushing Pakistan too hard for peace. Pakistani’s are at war with each other and at war with themselves.”

-Pakistan has its share of problems, a young democracy, a vibrant media, an independent judiciary, a powerful Army. Just another country like others, and in 2004 USA pushed us to send Army in tribal areas. Since then we are facing an insurgency and coping with it, crisis after crisis, wave of violent terrorist attacks, natural disaster and a weak economy. But still we are hanging in, lets not loose hope. And if you come visit Lahore, you’ll find there is still hope for peace. maybe you’ll find this country is craving for peace. But unfortunately, the potrayal is that Pakistan is a terrorist state. This perception cannot be changed overnight.

Posted by Umairpk | Report as abusive
 

@”No one should dare to erect even a barbed wire across the line of control in the disputed region of Jammu and Kashmir….” Posted by Umairpk

LMAO! Easy dude, your hormones seem to be acting up again, maybe you’re coming off a rhetorical press release from the PA. You’re really in NO position to threaten anyone. For now, just concentrate on saving your a$$es from getting bombed by US/NATO strikes.

Posted by Mortal1 | Report as abusive
 

@777
correction. Germany does not dictate European finances. German is the paymaster in the euro zone. The euro countries do not have a uniform finance structure nor economic policies. Despite this the euro countries have agreed to bail out the weaker to protect the Euro and this Unfortunately has put Germany on the spot.
I must say you do a lot of loud thinking. I am an observer and analyst by nature, no a war monger. History is full of wars and no one has yet been able to avoid wars. I have also not said that after 50 years the Pashtoons are going to attack India. My prognosis is that Pashtoons are going to role out of their Bunkers and spread across the indian sub-continent not out of love or conquer but to destroy the power structures around them. I could have also forecasted that the moghul empire would come down and few merchants from the European continent would take over and eventualy colonise them, but I was not born few hundred years ago. I guess you do not follow me so let us leave it at that. i wish you good luck in your hopes.
Rex Minor

Posted by pakistan | Report as abusive
 

@”But unfortunately, the potrayal is that Pakistan is a terrorist state. This perception cannot be changed overnight.” Posted by Umairpk

Perception is influenced by reality, to a great extent. Is the perception (of Pakistan being a terrorist state) wrong, when almost every terrorist attack (successful or foiled) in the world has links to your country? If you’re really interested in changing the perception, change the reality first. Stop your double dealing ways, stop sheilding terrorists under the pretext of “strategic depth” & sincerely eliminate all sorts of terroism from your soil. Once your country rids itself of the cancer of terrorism for good, the way it is percieved in the world, will also change.

Posted by Mortal1 | Report as abusive
 

Mortal:
“If you’re really interested in changing the perception, change the reality first. Stop your double dealing ways, stop sheilding terrorists under the pretext of “strategic depth” & sincerely eliminate all sorts of terroism from your soil.”

-Is India also willing to stop oppressing Kashmiris and ready to stop state terrorism there? And what do you mean terrorists, do you mean freedom fighters of President Ronald Reagen’s era?

Posted by Umairpk | Report as abusive
 

Mortal:”For now, just concentrate on saving your a$$es from getting bombed by US/NATO strikes.”

-Least concerned, as we speak NATO supplies and logistical support in Pakistan is halted. Lets see how far before they starve without food and ammunition in Afghanistan. Not long before they start begging Russia to provide them a lengthy and costly logistics supply route stretched across central Asia. CIS states are under Moscows sphere of influence, Pakistan would still absorb few border incursions but it will not be long before the squeeze will start to bite US/NATO.
A redline has certainly been crossed and Islamabad is on a collision course with Brussells and Washington. As tensions rise, DG ISI met with CIA director, it will soon be evident which side takes what position.

Posted by Umairpk | Report as abusive
 

@”Lets see how far before they starve without food and ammunition in Afghanistan” Posted by Umairpk

Naah, It’s more like, let’s see at what price do your generals & leaders sell your country’s “sovereignity” for (again) because at the end of the day, that’s what all this hue & cry is all about. It’s just the way it happened when drones started impinging your “sovereignity”. Your leaders started whining & beating their chests but ultimately setttled for $$$ & “aid” and later we learned that the Drones have been flying from Pakistani bases, all along. Same thing here, just give it some time. Once your Generals prop up the bidding to a desired level, they’ll not only open up the supply route but also offer bases for American/Nato choppers & jets. All this tamaashebaazi is only meant for regular folks like you. I’m sure, behind the scenes, the wheeling & dealing is already underway. BTW, just one supply route has been shut, others are functional.

@”A redline has certainly been crossed and Islamabad is on a collision course with Brussells and Washington.”

As we’ve seen before, in case of Pakistan, the “Red line” can be erased & re-drawn with a bunch of cash and/or threats.

Posted by Mortal1 | Report as abusive
 

@”Is India also willing to stop oppressing Kashmiris and ready to stop state terrorism there?”

Ah, I was wondering as to when would the finger-pointing start! No, India does not need to stop anything because the last time I checked, it’s perception in the world is pretty good & only getting better. As for Pakistan, obviously not the case.

@”And what do you mean terrorists, do you mean freedom fighters of President Ronald Reagen’s era?”

Did those “freedom fighters” plot & execute terrorist attacks on cities & civilians around the world? When I say terrorists, I say any group and/or individual, who is a threat to global security.

Posted by Mortal1 | Report as abusive
 

@Umair
“No one should dare to erect even a barbed wire across the line of control in the disputed region of Jammu and Kashmir let alone a wall”

Are you sleepeing all these years. Indian Army already has a barbed wire fencing 1 km inside of LOC in J&K and Punjab.

Posted by 777xxx777 | Report as abusive
 

Umair
There is already a wire, perhaps electrocuted and floodlit in certain areas, across inside India-Pak LoC as 777xxx777 mentioned. Pakistan is no special case India has across India-bangladesh border. Pakistan has project to do the same across Pak-Afghanistan border(with mines).

Posted by rehmat | Report as abusive
 

http://www.dawn.com/wps/wcm/connect/dawn -content-library/dawn/the-newspaper/fron t-page/tankers-hit-100

Gunmen in southern Pakistan on Friday torched more than two dozen trucks and tankers carrying supplies for Nato forces in Afghanistan, police said.

“Around 20 attackers armed with rocket launchers and assault rifles attacked these trucks. They set ablaze 27 trucks parked there,” district police chief .

Posted by Umairpk | Report as abusive
 

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/10/01/world/ asia/01peshawar.html?_r=1&scp=2&sq=Pakis tan%20&st=cse

Signaling Tensions, Pakistan Shuts NATO Route

-Pakistan can shut down NATO supplies, doesnt even matter if CIA Director is present in Islamabad.

Posted by Umairpk | Report as abusive
 

While emotionally this makes u feel good, no doubt, this is actually a terrible thing to do. Have u considered the impact of this on:

1) Aid: aid is needed across Pak for flood affected people. Contribution from western countries – government maybe and people definitely will get affected by this event.

2) economic issues: WB and IMF packages/loans to Pak to tide over flood crisis and bad economic situation will be hit.

3) Nov elections: US has elections in Nov. Which pol is gonna go back to people looking like he got blackmailed?

I think this is ploy by the army to take over the country again. They are creating perfect conditions for declaring crisis and taking over. This is an unmitigated disaster for democracy in pak.

Think this through Umair – think on consequences for ur country rather than US. I keep repeating myself but facts are US is a $15 trillion economy (3X the next biggest economy and equal to whole of EU) – they can handle anything thrown at them with ease – 550bn$ military budget per annum.

Pak entire GDP is US$180bn. Think! Forget ur emotions for 5 minutes and think!

Posted by nvrforgetmbai | Report as abusive
 

@Umair,

Watch your pindi boys wet their trousers once again, when someone from the Pentagon or Defense community pulls out their fangs, your people will roll. If the U.S. loses Afghanistan, then they really won’t care any more and don’t much to lose after that and that makes you lose all leverage on them.

Mushie rolled over, and so will Kayani. Your people just want more money. That black mail will run out and time is running out.

“Either you are with us or against us”.

This game won’t last forever, it will come to a conclusive end in the near future and the U.S. never loses, if they do, the damage inflicted on the way out will be massive.

Posted by G-W | Report as abusive
 

Historically speaking, when someone crosses the U.S., there seems afterwards, a huge barrage of multination contractors looking to “Rebuild” those countrie’s infrastructure. Time will tell. Saddam double crossed and look what happened in iraq.

Posted by G-W | Report as abusive
 

nvrforgetmbai:”While emotionally this makes u feel good, no doubt, this is actually a terrible thing to do.”

-Even more terrible is when NATO helicopters cross into Pakistan’s airspace, by then Pakistani ground troops fire warning shots in the air to signal them to return back to Afghanistan. Instead the helicopters return fire and kill three soldiers and injuring three others.
Now until those pilots get worried where will next meal come from and if they will be able to fly out of their bases with enough feul to make it back. Pakistan will rapidly increase the cost, food and feul supplies are the lifeline of NATO forces which will now be squeezed. On the other hand, Pakistani troops would be on clear orders to open fire on intruding NATO forces. Inside a completely free hand will be given to burn down and attack NATO tankers wherever they are, on the transit terminal, at the ports, on the highways. Across the entire border, when all Pak Army units carry surface to air ANZA missiles, no other chopper would dare to enter Pakistani airspace.
Just as the border wall gives you emotional support, let it be a matter of satisfaction for me. We will not worry about economy, if Pakistan is under threat. Save Pakistan, economy later.

G-W:
“Watch your pindi boys wet their trousers once again, when someone from the Pentagon or Defense community pulls out their fangs, your people will roll.”

-Anyone who f*ck around with Pindi boys, knows the consequences. Pindi boys are professionals, not a bunch of gangsters. Pakistan has said it would consider “response options” if NATO forces continued to violate its sovereignty. One option is to distribute surface to air ANZA missile across the border posts and deploy airdefense teams, I can bet no NATO chopper would ever get near Pakistani airspace after that.

Posted by Umairpk | Report as abusive
 

Umair,

Reading your devil-may-care comments about taking on the US, it appears you relish the prospect of your country’s coming destruction. Funny, we are more scared for you than you are!

Of course, if Kennedy was to be believed, the only thing worse than being an enemy of the US is to be an ally, so maybe Pakistan’s prospects are now improving :-/.

Regards,
Ganesh Prasad

Posted by prasadgc | Report as abusive
 

Prime Minister Yusuf Raza Gilani, speaking in parliament, said Pakistan was a partner in the war against Islamist militancy, but would allow no infringement of its sovereignty.
“I want to assure the entire nation from this house that we will consider other options if there is interference in the sovereignty of our country,” Gilani said without elaborating.
———————————————————-
Response option
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anza_(missi le)

Posted by Umairpk | Report as abusive
 

I would love to see Pakistan Air Force in action, come on! A few F-16s, Mirages, JF-17s and F-7s flying Combat air patrol missions. Just shoot a few drones out of the sky, US will never attack a nuclear armed nation. Have some fun.

In the 80s, PAF F-16s regularly confronted Soviet jets across the same border. Let history repeat itself, Soviet Union collapsed and another super power is on the brink of defeat. Pakistan needs to escalate, and this lame duck government is afraid to fight back while we become a laughing stock of the world. A couple of drone strikes every day and all is well. Get the f*ck economy straight and open fire.
———————————————————-
http://www.defence.pk/forums/military-av iation/74800-general-beg-demands-right-p af-shoot-down-isaf-copters-drones.html
General Beg demands right for Pakistan Air Force to shoot down ISAF copters, drones
September 29, 2010

Former Pakistani army chief, General Mirza Aslam Beg, has criticised the government for involving Gen Ashfaq Parvez Kayani in the conflict between the executive and the judiciary, and also demanded that the Pakistan Air Force should be given the task to shoot down ISAF helicopters and drones involved in attacks in the county’s territories.

Posted by Umairpk | Report as abusive
 

@”Anyone who f*ck around with Pindi boys, knows the consequences. Pindi boys are professionals, not a bunch of gangsters” Posted by Umairpk

Tough words huh? LMAO! History is proof that your pindi boys are always open for business. It’s just a matter of “right price”.

@”Prime Minister Yusuf Raza Gilani, speaking in parliament, said Pakistan was a partner in the war against Islamist militancy, but would allow no infringement of its sovereignty.
“I want to assure the entire nation from this house that we will consider other options if there is interference in the sovereignty of our country,””

Translation: “Hey listen, you Kiyani, don’t forget me while making the deal. I WANT MY CUT, I WANT MY CUT!”

Posted by Mortal1 | Report as abusive
 

And my prediction is, it is very likely that the move to block the supply route was designed to force the United States to back off from the latest wave of cross-border operations. For a few days, as Ambassador Haqqani and Fm Qureshi met with Sen. John Kerry in Washington and CIA director Leon Panetta with DG ISI and COAS in Islamabad. For next few days it will be clear how this plays out. It is very likely, Pakistan will shoot down a NATO chopper next time. This is not a war, both parties are playing it out. US wants Pakistan to do more, Pakistan increases the costs for US. Poor allies, they hate each other but still can’t live without each other.
O o BAMA be careful !

Posted by Umairpk | Report as abusive
 

Mortal:
“Tough words huh? LMAO! History is proof that your pindi boys are always open for business. It’s just a matter of “right price”.”

-True, we mean business.

Posted by Umairpk | Report as abusive
 

@Umair

One thing I am unable to understand is that when Pakis have 1.nukes, 2.ICBMs, 3.Intentions to create rule of Allah all over world, 4.”balls” as well then why are ur PA bosses letting Pak asses being f*****d hard and thick by US. Beats me. U r concerned for Muslims all over world and are true “thekedaars” of Islam and that too with nukes and ICBM then why is ur pious & brave PA letting ur country being raped by foreigners. Why not nuke US, UK, Israel, Germany, France, Italy, Australia, etc, etc?

I’ll tell u why because if u nuke every other western/Christian country then u will have to ask for help from India which is supposedly more shameful for you than asking for alms from west and in return u let west continuously f**** you people like anything. What ur faujis are unable to c is that war and hatred will never result in progress. But ALAS it is the ordinary Pakistani that is made to suffer to keep the paki fauji fat.

Posted by 777xxx777 | Report as abusive
 

@”True, we mean business.” Posted by Umairpk

You probably misunderstood, the kind of “business”, I was refering to.

@”US wants Pakistan to do more, Pakistan increases the costs for US. Poor allies, they hate each other but still can’t live without each other. O o BAMA be careful !”

The current scenario, unfolding in AfPak, is not meant for the Nov elections (It’s a forgone conclusions that the Dems will lose), it’s all about the 2012 presidential elections. Obama has a lot of heat on him at the moment & he knows that he simply CAN NOT withdraw from AfPak without showing that he has inflicted some serious damage to the terror infrastructure in Pakistan. Add to that the very real possibility of terror attacks against the west being planned in Pakistan (as the recent european plot revealed) & it becomes imperitive to eliminate terrorism in Pakistan. The problem is, that your army is unwilling to take on many of those terror groups & is sheilding many of them (Haqqani, Let etc) for “strategic depth”. So, either your army will be pressurized/paid to take on those groups or they’ll be made to sit on the sidelines, while US/NATO troops do the job. It’s as simple as that!

Posted by Mortal1 | Report as abusive
 

Umair,

You pindi boyz cannot extort cash forever. This margin of bilateral function will soon cease and come to an end.

Last I know, fuel reserves to wage any sort of conventional operation is only a week or two for you guys.

The pindi boyz are a class of professional grade mobsters, there is really no other way to put. I am punjabi too Umair, I know Punjabi mentality, there is much babar and talk of being tough, until you get your teeth knocked out. Pindi boyz will get their jaw relocated, if they push the redline too far.

This is a war that Pindi boyz cannot win and will not win. You guyz simply are outgunned in an extremely large way.

It is better to say sorry and get on with business, rather than lose a limb or something much worse.

At some point, uncle yanke is going to quit giving money ad start dictating sternly and the consequences will be made clear. I am sure a style statement will be made in the near future and pindi boyz will wet their knickers once more.

In a weird sort of way, you guys almost make this entertaining, like some sort of Bollywood Serial Show.

Posted by G-W | Report as abusive
 

What “Channa pindi” boys could do is to try to shoot down a NATO chopper or a plane and capture the pilot and crew. The US will not be able to do anything because of violating international sovereignty laws. The US will try to negotiate a way out and Pakistan can bargain for an exchange for Afia Siddiqui. For all one knows, Pakistan might try luring NATO forces into its territory to capture them alive. The US and its allies must be careful not to fall into this trap.

I am currently reading Bob Woodward’s “Obama’s wars.” It makes very interesting reading.

Posted by KPSingh01 | Report as abusive
 

@Singh,

Nobody in the South Asian continent should be under any illusions. Despite the recent economic setbacks and some recent chest thumping by up and coming emerging powers, the U.S. and the western alliance is the most powerful unified military force on the earth, with the most high tech weaponry and most sophisticated professional military.

At the end of the day, these guys can do as they wish, they don’t really need permission of any kind any where. Just because they can, it does not mean that they will, but I am sure that they have their red limits.

In fact Barack Obama has already pledged during his 2008 presidential campaign that he would invade Pakistan to take the fight to the enemy, if Pakistani State agencies were too impotent to help. If Af-Pak mission flounders any more and the 2012 is in jeopardy, the Right Wing Neo-Con Republicans may just force Obama’s hand, to show that he can flex muscle and get the job done.

This little fact is short sighted by many and may at the end of the day, bring the U.S. and NATO into Pakistan, sovereignty or not, they have a mission to complete, at any cost, to safeguard U.S citizen’s lives.

I am curious to see how Pakistan would respond to such a blatant large scale incursion, full well knowing the consequences if they stop the NATO forces from surgically removing terrorist outfits deep into Pakistani heartland territory. Let’s hope that Pakistan never pushes the U.S. into that situation, because it will bring the entire region into hell.

Posted by G-W | Report as abusive
 

@007
A minor error in your premise, your note to omair, the fourth ingredient. Neither Kyani has it nor the individual pilots. It is bad because the big brother India is watching their performance. Just imagine, even a military soldier needs the permission to shoot down the intruders crossing into Pakistan. This also proves that Pakistan para military or the regular army hs never controlled the Pashtoon territory. The left it to the local tribes who usually do not muck bout near the border posts of the para military people. Both the military and the politicians are making fuss about it simply to calm the enraged citizens as well as to raise the levy on supplies and to have some sort of ownership of the border.
Rex Minor

Posted by pakistan | Report as abusive
 

@KPSingh

I agree with G-W. The Pakistanis don’t have the goods & are in no position to shoot down a US/NATO chopper & escalate hostilities. The floods have brought them on the verge of collapse & the last thing they want is, get their life support cut off (aids & loans) & enagage with NATO troops. All this drama, is simply a bargaining ploy to extract more $$$. From the recent tone coming from Washington, the Obama admn is serious about cleaning up the mess in Pakistan. The only thing to be determined here, is whether the Pakistanis will be threatened/bribed/coerced to join the fight or to watch from the sidelines.

Posted by Mortal1 | Report as abusive
 

Here’s a sound bite of the tone I was talking about, in my last comment:

“Tough US warning to Pakistan on militant attacks into Afghanistan”

http://www.dawn.com/wps/wcm/connect/dawn -content-library/dawn/the-newspaper/fron t-page/tough-us-warning-on-militant-atta cks-into-afghanistan-100

Posted by Mortal1 | Report as abusive
 

@Singh, Mortal,

With regards to my previous statement, wondering what Pakistan would do if the U.S. ever invaded Pakistan, I have reading a lot of buzz lately that the U.S., if they increase their campaign into Pakistan itself to chase extremists or hit actionable targets, that there is a risk that Pakistan, just out of soreness with the U.S., will pre-emptively hit India with some sort of nuclear first strike, again, yes, the buzz is saying that they will hit India, just because the U.S. has encroached on their territory.

Obama has to tread carefully. We all know that the pakistani’s are nutjobs, when it comes to war, and they cannot be trusted, history has shown that, but when you throw desperation into the mix, some analysts are predicting that Pakistan just may hit Delhi, out of desperate, because the U.S. has violated their sovereignty.

I think if the U.S. is going to do something like step on Pakistani soil, they should do so acknowledging that they potentially will put all of India in harms way, because the official state agencies will become and act like a terrorist, if the U.S. enters their country.

The U.S. better have analyzed this very carefully if they ever decide anything like invading Pakistan. I agree with umair, it is not an easy game, since the state army will morph literally into a terrorist organization overnight, if they are pushed so.

India better work on that missile defence shield and it better be highly effective and operational with a 100% kill rate each time. Everyone’s future’s are inextricably linked here. Somebody farts in Germany, minutes later, somebody dies on the battlefield in Afghanistan. Things happen so quickly in this world now, anything is possible in short period of time and to manage, this requires quick thinking.

Posted by G-W | Report as abusive
 

G-W
“….. I have reading a lot of buzz lately that the U.S., if they increase their campaign into Pakistan itself to chase extremists or hit actionable targets, that there is a risk that Pakistan, just out of soreness with the U.S., will pre-emptively hit India with some sort of nuclear first strike, again, yes, the buzz is saying that they will hit India, just because the U.S. has encroached on their territory.”

“Obama has to tread carefully. We all know that the pakistani’s are nutjobs, when it comes to war, and they cannot be trusted, history has shown that, but when you throw desperation into the mix, some analysts are predicting that Pakistan just may hit Delhi, out of desperate, because the U.S. has violated their sovereignty.”

***G-W: Do you seriously believe that Pakistan would pre-emptively fire a nuke at India if US hits targets in Pakistan? Pakistanis may be nuts but they will not commit suicide.

Not going to happen. USA will never ever strike Pakistan like it did Iraq. The fuss is about attacking terrorist training camps. USA will perhaps do that someday but that is not going to be counterproductive. Pakistan will not strike India because India will not start the war nor USA will hit Pakistan that hard to provoke the nuclear response from Pakistan. If Pakistan does not fire any nuke India will not use too.

The West by nature is calculative and cautious or at least they try. So they study all possibilities.

Posted by rehmat | Report as abusive
 

G-W:
Typo: [USA will perhaps do that someday but that is going to be counterproductive]

Posted by rehmat | Report as abusive
 

G-W:
Typo: [USA will perhaps do that someday but that is going to be counterproductive]

Posted by rehmat | Report as abusive
 

G-W,

Rehmat’s comment reflects my sentiment as well, so I’ll be brief. As much as, tough-talking & rhetorical Pakistan’s leaders might be, I don’t think they are stupid enough to commit suicide by nuking an Indian city, in reponse to a US/NATO strike. Secondly, the US/NATO have abolutely no interest in invading Pakistan. All they wanna do is, eliminate the terrorists in Pakistan which are a serious threat to global security.

Posted by Mortal1 | Report as abusive
 

@Rex
You really have just no sense of humour at all. My post to Umair was a blunt taunt nothing more as he had once talked of Indians having no “balls” which we thought best not to reply. U live in Germany and I live in India. Tell me who would know better whether India has balls or Pakistan has balls. U ruined my taunt. Everyone else got the taunt and hence no one commented and were waiting for Umair’s reply. Anyway just practice some Indian style humour. :)

Posted by 777xxx777 | Report as abusive
 

As for USA invading Pakistan, that is an absolute stupid and foolish notion. Striking a few hundred camps in no way means invading Pakistan. When Pak officials keep telling the world that their state agencies do not support terror camps but at same time have no control over them then in such situation USA striking terror camps in Pak will be seen as a HELP to Pak agencies rather than invasion. And Pakis cannot launch offensive, certainly not nuke offensive, for USA HELPING them against terror camps.

As I said before also, PA generals will lick the lady’s feet and more than allow the tomahawks to fly Pak airspace and bomb Pak soil. Just wait and watch.

Posted by 777xxx777 | Report as abusive
 

777xxx777: “PA generals will lick the lady’s feet and more than allow the tomahawks to fly Pak airspace and bomb Pak soil. Just wait and watch.”

Pakistanis are very good at rewriting history. They’ll simply twist it and fit it into their history – “Bad elements were holding Pakistan hostage and the mighty Pak military was caught balancing itself against many enemy fronts and was unable to take on the bad elements. At that time, the US, being the greatest friend of Pakistan at all times, decided to help by launching its own offensive and destroyed those bad elements, thereby saving their ally, Pakistan.”

This is how they have it in their history about Arab invasion. They have made a total villain out of Dahir, the king of Sindh. Mohammad Bin Qasim has been painted as the most noble, benevolent leader who invaded and save the land from the evil Brahmins and Buddhists. Pakistanis seriously believe in the mantra – “If you can’t beat them, join them.” It is the mode for survival. See how Rex minor is worshipping the Pashtuns. I am sure they did “something” to change his psyche. Pakistan suffers from Stockholm syndrome.

Posted by KPSingh01 | Report as abusive
 

@Rehmat, Singh, Mortal.

“As for USA invading Pakistan, that is an absolute stupid and foolish notion. Striking a few hundred camps in no way means invading Pakistan. When Pak officials keep telling the world that their state agencies do not support terror camps but at same time have no control over them then in such situation USA striking terror camps in Pak will be seen as a HELP to Pak agencies rather than invasion. And Pakis cannot launch offensive, certainly not nuke offensive, for USA HELPING them against terror camps.

As I said before also, PA generals will lick the lady’s feet and more than allow the tomahawks to fly Pak airspace and bomb Pak soil. Just wait and watch.”

–>The some of those same analysts predicated that hitting camps in Pakistan could theoretically escalate and deteriorate into such a chaos in pakistan that the Pakistani’s at the last hour, as civil war starts to consume Pakistan and the security there runs out of control, that as a last action, while they go down, they might choose to take India down too….with a first strike. I am mixed about this, I do not think it would happen in most cases. But I don’t think its impossible either.

If the U.S. would do something this foolhardy, then they might as well complete the job and clean up Kashmir as well, because the next wave of terrorists, the next Waziristan would originate from Pakistan occupied Kashmir.

Posted by G-W | Report as abusive
 

@kpsingh01
The lady’s husbannd did send the tomohawks missiles over the pakistan territory in order to hit Bin Laden in his camp.Well, he just missed it and may be some spuds and some pashtoons civilians got caught and died. The USA got in reply several civilian aircrafts trying to knock out the centres of Power. Are you suggesting the repeat of the scenario. You are not a great friend of the USA?
Ever since the USA started the offensive against the so called terrorists, the world ´has seen more terrorism, more countries under attack and now you guys are suggesting that further attacks should be undertaken. I thought the USA, but not India, is now embarked on winning the hearts and minds of the people. Incidently, France is the first western country now prepared to negotiate with AlQuaeda!!
Every western Govt. is now ready for peace even with the devil, and you guys are still hoping that only force is the solution for today’s tyranny.
rex Minor

Posted by pakistan | Report as abusive
 

Rex Minor: “Ever since the USA started the offensive against the so called terrorists, the world ´has seen more terrorism, more countries under attack and now you guys are suggesting that further attacks should be undertaken. I thought the USA, but not India, is now embarked on winning the hearts and minds of the people. Incidently, France is the first western country now prepared to negotiate with AlQuaeda!!”

Pakistan is like an ant hill. From outside, it looked smooth and no one knew what was inside. The Americans did not care about it for a long time, until they got bitten by some of the ants. So they came near it and are heating the ground around it. Guess what has happened to ants? They are coming out more in the open, running in all directions. When they do, they know only what is known to them – bite everything on their way. That explains why all the terrorism, suicide attacks etc suddenly rising exponentially in Pakistan. This is due to pressure and nothing else. If you want to blame anyone for Pakistan’s ills today, blame the Al Qaeda. So long as Pakistan’s goals were confined to South Asia, no one really cared. This went on in the 1990s. Unfortunately Pakistan allowed Al Qaeda into Afghanistan and allowed them to fester there. The Tomahawk missiles not only hit Al Qaeda camps in Afghanistan, but also several ISI held camps that killed many Pakistani personnel. Pakistan was like a burglar getting stung by a scorpion during his heist. They could not scream out loud in pain.
Al Qaeda had global ambitions, while Pakistan had only regional ambitions. Al Qaeda is not made up of double dealing and duplicitous politicians. Pakistan is. So Al Qaeda could not be contained and what they did has led to what Pakistan is facing today.
So it would be prudent on the part of Pakistan to go to war with Al Qaeda and finish them off. If Pak military kills of Bin Laden and his supporters Taliban, the world might sympathize with them. If they want to keep them hidden as assets, the heat will only increase and become unbearable soon.

Posted by KPSingh01 | Report as abusive
 

@G-W
You quoted me in ur last post and said that I am some of those who predicted Pak will nuke India while itslef going down. So can you please pull up one single comment from me (777xxx777) when I said Pak will nuke India? If you cannot find one from me then I expect an apology from u.

@Rex
I do not mind getting a peace deal with Devil as long as devil remains in his den and does not interfere with my country’s affairs. Unfortunately that is not the case right now and will never be because no one can remain isolated. But ur pious pashtoons want to dictate and not adjust and cooperate and deny any sort of coexistence. In such scenario no peace deals can last for long. Mark my words Pashtoons can NEVER live peacefully (and will not let others live peacefully) until they start to accept coexistence.

Posted by 777xxx777 | Report as abusive
 

@Rex
“The lady’s husbannd did send the tomohawks missiles over the pakistan territory in order to hit Bin Laden in his camp.Well, he just missed it and may be some spuds and some pashtoons civilians got caught and died.”

Well ironically it was Musharaff who helped Laden escape in last minute from the tomahawk at that time. And as for civilian planes and US it was some very lax internal security on part of US airports. I am very sure that it cannot be repeated. As a matter of fact by your logic after US hit so many tomahawks and drones in Af-Pak region the US should have been bombed every now and then, but that is not the case. US homeland security has become so much tight that even their own residents are feeling uneasy about it. So I do not agree with ur logic, while I do agree with Singh’s logic and as the saying goes, “bhujhne se zara pehle diya jhor se chamakta hai” (just moments before dying out the lamp burns extra brightly). And it seems to be true in case of Pakistan backed terrorists.

Posted by 777xxx777 | Report as abusive
 

@777,

You misunderstood, I never quoted you as having said any such thing, I was referring to analysts, I have read about, outside of these blogs. I never quoted you as having said anything on the matter.

Sorry if there was a misunderstanding, I was not quoating anybody from these blogs. I hope that clarfies the misunderstanding.

Posted by G-W | Report as abusive
 

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/10/02  /cia-pakistan-drones-escalation-diversi on_n_747827.html

In light of the NATO supply route blockade, it appears Washington is becomeing increasingly brazen with Pakistan and diverting military drone resources from Afghanistan into Pakistan in increasing numbers.

I think this is the style statement that the U.S. was looking to make with Pakistan, that I had mentioned. As the Afghanistan mission flounders, in the quest to destroy militants, I predict greater NATO incursions into Pakistan, deeper into Pakistan with larger variety of military hardware other than just drones.

Pakistan’s border is becoming increasingly irrelevant, as NATO’s mission in Afghanistan enters more risky territory.

Posted by G-W | Report as abusive
 

Further to the last posting, it will be interesting to see how Pakistani Army manages the increased flux of militants from the NWFP to the cities, as the police are under-equipped and the Army is not trained in conducting extensive urban warfare operations in the cities.

City folk better brace themselves for many unwanted visitors, hiding in the cities.

Posted by G-W | Report as abusive
 

I get the impression that you guys overestimate the IQ of the military generals and the political leaders. In fact, it is quite the opposite some time. They all do have one thing in common and that is CLEVERNESS.
So your theories based on strategic thinking and high graded planning are faulty.
@KPSingh01
The so called Alqueda leaders have neither indicated any global ambitions nor have any global organisation. But they have been urging and encouraging the muslims all around the world to resist occupation and suppression. we all know that the resistance groups so formed of people from various countries involved in their struggle, went into Afghanistan during the time of Russian occupation and watched and assisted the so called mujahideens fighting a guerella war. The USA and the western countries actively supported them, CIA,Pakistan ISI etc were also involved in these efforts. This sanctuary is no longer available to foreigners in Afghanistan and pakistan. Pakistan alone hve been passing on any suspect caught and even innocent visitors to the CIA.
You have always overestimated the power of the USA and the Pakistan army. Despite the advance technology of the USA and several prisons around the world as well as torture and inhuman practice, the Americans ever failing competence have not enabled them to succed. it took them several years to realize that they need to improve their image, change the foreign policy in the middle east etc and try to win the hearts and mind of the people and improve the image of the USA. Even a USA senator criticised Bill Clinton’s decision to send Tomahawk missiles to assasinate one man. Was the President trying to kill the spuds, the senator asked? Yes spuds, the Tomahawk missiles are not meant to function in a guerella war?
You are urging Pakistan army to kill the terrorist leaders to earn a trophy. Why do’nt you urge the Indian military and their intelligence network, most of it is headquartered in Afghanistan as well as Pakistan practically in all provinces,but have not found the ones either. The alternative for India is to free the kashmiris from the military suppression, for sooner or later the kashmiri resistance group is going to strike again and innocents lives would be lost. This is the strategic decision and not the strategic decision to employ weapons. (The modern history tells us that the leaders who opt for peace are the ones who are visionary and not those wwho are collecting deadful weaponry. It is a matter of time when the resistance groups are going to acquire the so called dirty bomb. What then? )
The info of all the impending terror acts were apparently in the system but the task of monitoring all e mails and telephone calls is a monumental task which the security apparatus cannot simply handle it.The ammateur shoe bombers are regularly visiting the USA without a success but indicate the security system weakness. The USA has a porus border with Canada and Mexico. Do you believe that the criminals are not aware of this. How much opium is now being smuggled straight from Afghanistan across the central Asia, Russia, europe and across the atlantic to its regular customers in the USA? There is more corruption in the USA free system than in India and Pakistan. Even the USA leaders have stated that they expect a repeat of the sept. 11 attack but do not know about the timing. so you see we are all safe at present not because of the super security system of the world but simply the would be terrorist have no plan to attack us.
@777
Your guess has no logic, since bill clinton decisionwas carried out within seconds and the decision he made was also in seconds and the info CIA provided to their President was also instant, but the tomahawk or the GPS system do not have accuracy over a long distance. Besides Bin Laden is a believer, even the missile cannot harm him if it is not the will of God. Besides Musharaf had no part to play in this act. Even George knew that Musharaf has no ba, and very unreliable. Unlike Tony Blair he lies without a spin.
Pashtoons are very straightforward and live with their traditions. They do not have any reason not to co exist, as long as you do not mess about with them. Their bottom line, they do not like foreigners unless they are their guests. They would even protect them when necessary. And the foreigners mean, the one who do not speak their dialect. Musharaf and his fellow companions are all foreign for them!!
Rex Minor

Posted by pakistan | Report as abusive
 

@Rex
“Besides Bin Laden is a believer, even the missile cannot harm him if it is not the will of God”

And everyone else is Kaafir. So u ASSUME since laden escaped missiles so GOD did not wanted him to be killed and when and if laden dies in a missile attack then u will ASSUME that GOD wanted him to die. That’s the trouble with anyone blindly following religion. Blind faith is far more dangerous than no faith at all.

I won’t get into any future discussion with a guy who is a blind faith believer and does not use his God given brains.

Posted by 777xxx777 | Report as abusive
 

@rex , @777 all this talk abt pashtoos been undefeatable is just a myth .There are warrior communities in every country quite capable to take on the pashtos like in india sikhs , gurkhas , rajputs , marathas who when it comes to war are more then a match . The terrain of afghanistan is such that it benefits guerilla warfare .if pashtoos venture out of afganistan for war they will be butchered by professional armies of any country . Maharaja Ranjit Singh ruled afghanistan , pakistan and punjab quite effectively . The pashtoos like brutality they only follow the law if it is ruthlessly enforced on them .The great king ruled on them well providing effective administration and rule of law . As for bin laden only fighting against suppression is a lot of lies which islamic extremists like to believe in . Bin laden and his cronies want islamisation and sharia in the south east asian segment , middle east , and europe sections of uk etc .PA generals consider themselves to be mughals incarnates who think they can do this just like mughals did it on india 100s of years ago .A lot of it is based on false imaginative idealogy and spread of islam leading to conflict of civilizations. US and europe will confront pakistan sooner then later over this islamic militancy leading to major retributions , As soon as alternative fuel arrangements are brought into practice the arabs will be bombed back to herding goats . ghostwhowalks.

Posted by ghostwhowalks | Report as abusive
 

@777
Then be it. Yes I have faith not a blind one, your words, not mine, but with full awareness. According to Immanuel Kant, the German philosopher, morality requires the belief in the existance of God,freedom and immortality(the three great problems of metaphysics), because without their existance there can be no morality.
Rex Minor

Posted by pakistan | Report as abusive
 

Bush era has huge retribution plan, given to Obama.

http://www.foreignpolicy.com/articles/20 10/10/04/pakistan_goes_rogue

Posted by G-W | Report as abusive
 

You guys keep thinking that the only options are military.

They’ve already begun work on a northern supply route. And even Iran co-operates with some of the NATO allies/partners, when it comes to Afghanistan. You just don’t see all that in the papers.

Once the logistics alternatives are developed, it will be both the incomes of Pashtoons and the leverage that Pakistan has under threat.

In the longer term, economics will be used to keep Pakistan in check. If by the time, NATO/US forces leave Afghanistan, Pakistan’s duplicity is detrimental to US and European security, you can expect some severe blowback.

The day the last Western soldier leaves Afghanistan, is the day Pakistan loses all leverage over the West. Once that happens, the gloves will come off.

If Pakistanis think the world is being stingy with post-flood aid, just wait till the US starts demanding real action in the Pakhtoonwah in exchange for the next IMF package (and we all know Pakistan will need one sooner rather than later). Next time there’s a flood, just imagine the discussions, the Americans will be having with Rawalpindi.

As for threats of fighting back. Given Pakistan’s defence industrial base and lack of strategic reserves (and we’re not just talking crude oil…which is a severe limiting fact), Pakistan’s war-making capacity is basically limited to a token defence of about a week unless their willing to go nuclear. And really at that point, one American SSBN could turn Pakistan into glass parking lot before the second nuke ever lifted off from Pakistan. Not a game, even Kayani is willing to play (despite what Umair fantasizes about).

Finally, for all those who dream about this stuff…there’s a phrase that comes to mind when reading Umair’s bluster, “Amateurs talk weapons. Professionals talk logistics.”

Umair, I’d have much more respect for your opinion, if you ever actually talked about logistics (the fact that you don’t reveals your amateur nature) and explained to us how Pakistan would survive more than a week in an actual conflict, based on its current resource base.

Of course, like I said, the US has no interest in going to war with Pakistan. They’d just like to take out a few bad guys in the hills who keep Obama up at night. If you don’t do it yourselves, then the Americans will insist on taking on the task, and if you don’t let them, they’ll apply enough pressure until they get the go-ahead. It’s that simple.

And whenever the US has been direct and acute in it’s pressure, Pakistan has always caved. That’s their history. They caved when Armitage called. Now they are resisting because they have some leverage. Once that leverage ends, they’ll cave again, out of fear of what resisting an unencumbered USA might bring.

Posted by kEiThZ | Report as abusive
 

Keith:

Pakistan and US are fast reaching a tipping point in their relationship, previously this relationship withstood a lot of strain. But now, Pakistan’s position is precarious as much as the US looks vulnerable in its war effort.

This time around their are larger issues just than closure of border or burning of NATO fuel tankers.

Just read: Mission creep in AfPak
by Eric Margolis

I quote:
“Where have we heard this before? Why in Cambodia and Laos, that’s where, during the Vietnam War. The frustrated US expanded the war into Cambodia and Laos to go after Communist base camps. The war spread; these two small nations were largely destroyed, but the war was ultimately lost.

Victory in war is achieved by concentration of forces, not spreading them ever thinner and wider.”

-Just as US lost the Vietnam war by expanding it to Cambodia and Laos, the Afghan war will be lost by expanding it to Pakistan. We need to know if you think Pakistan is an ally or an enemy. And sure you can explore air supplies and northern supply routes with the help of Russia and Iran. Only then you will realize the importance of Pakistan as an ally and recognize the support we give to US/NATO forces in Afghanistan. You cant fire on PAKMIL and get away, dont bite the hand that serves you.

and lastly this:

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/10/07/world/ asia/07diplo.html?_r=1&hp

U.S. Tries to Calm Pakistan Over Airstrike

Good Luck!

Posted by Umairpk | Report as abusive
 
 

@Umairpk

Every few months, some normally intelligent journalist will resort to a superficial comparison of the Afghan and Vietnam wars.

They lost in Vietnam because they weren’t willing to confront the Chinese who were the real source of support for the Communist Vietnamese. Instead they ran off into Laos and Cambodia.

The equivalent in Afghanistan would be running into Iran and Uzbekistan. This time around the Americans aren’t making the same mistake. They are gunning for the source of the problem: the badlands of Pakistan.

And if Pakistanis like you can’t wrap your head around it and would prefer to protect the Taliban and Al Qaeda (because that is in effect what your actions say you are doing), then be prepared to pay a very, very heavy price for that.

You might have a short party when NATO leaves Afghanistan. I’m sure the Communist block celebrated when the US lost in Vietnam too. Look at where they are today.

Once Western forces leave the region, then Pakistan will be susceptible to every foreign policy instrument the US and the West have at their disposable. Things won’t get better for Pakistan. They’ll get worse. This is why I sincerely hope that Pakistanis understand the value of co-operating now and dealing with this problem once and for all.

Posted by kEiThZ | Report as abusive
 

As for the tankers. Keep them. Do you have any idea how much money and aid Pakistan gets for that route? Pakistan is as reliant, if not more reliant, than NATO on those shipments.

Now that the alternate routes are ramping up, don’t be sure that Western forces in Afghanistan necessarily need the Pakistani supply routes. They might be easier to run, but not an absolute necessity.

And NATO’s been building up strategic reserves in Afghanistan for just such an occassion…and they surpass what Pakistan has today. Don’t worry. Guys like me get paid quite well to think of these kinds of scenarios long, long before they happen.

Posted by kEiThZ | Report as abusive
 

@Keith
“then be prepared to pay a very, very heavy price for that”

Yes that’s what US does best flex its financial muscle and impose sanctions on others, good or bad is debatable. In case of Pakistan it might turn out to be good because in such a scenario it is hoped that better sense will prevail among ordinary pakistanis like Umair and they will realise how important it is to live peacefully with others and how important it is to treat others as equal to yourself. US gave so much aid to Pakistan and yet Pakis continuously back-stabbed America all in name of Islam. No where Islam teaches to back-stab the one who gives you aid but God knows what Quran does Pakistanis study. I won’t be surprised if Pakistani administration would have made madrassas teach a distorted version of Quran as well along with biased history, to achieve their personal selfish aims. I am not sure how far this back-stabbing and double dealing of Pakistan will go.

Posted by 007XXX | Report as abusive
 

Keith:”And if Pakistanis like you can’t wrap your head around it and would prefer to protect the Taliban and Al Qaeda (because that is in effect what your actions say you are doing), then be prepared to pay a very, very heavy price for that.”

-Keith, Pakistanis (like me) have paid a huge price already, economically, psychologically, our future looks very tough but we are still hanging in here. You can bomb Pakistan and destabilize it, but it is our home and we live here. NATO and US has the option of calling it a day and one day leave our neighbourhood. But we will be the one’s picking up the pieces of a 10 year war and potential civil war next door. Not to mention Pakistan has already been pushed beyond the limits of normal endurance. I wouldn’t care much if NATO/US threaten us of grave consequences later when we are going to go down anyways.

Al-Qaeda remnants might be in some places of unregulated Pak-Afghan border. Pakistan might be having soft corner for Haqqani’s and Quetta Shura, but in last year or so Pakistan has done a lot to tackle the situation in Swat and Waziristan. Don’t forget many Al-Qaeda big guns were captured by ISI. We need to build on this trust, rather than promoting distrust.
In principal Pakistan has no conflict with west/NATo and US, we have our national interest, we are fighting against terrorism, we do not want you defeated. In return, you need to work with us as an ally not enemy.

“And NATO’s been building up strategic reserves in Afghanistan for just such an occassion…and they surpass what Pakistan has today. Don’t worry. Guys like me get paid quite well to think of these kinds of scenarios long, long before they happen.”

-And maybe Pakistan too have planned for contingency, in absence of ally support we will be isolated. But surely navigating complex challenges doesnt mean we should give up. If NATO and US can be our reliable allies, we will go the extra mile to work on common goals.

Posted by Umairpk | Report as abusive
 

“Don’t forget many Al-Qaeda big guns were captured by ISI. We need to build on this trust, rather than promoting distrust.
In principal Pakistan has no conflict with west/NATo and US, we have our national interest, we are fighting against terrorism, we do not want you defeated. In return, you need to work with us as an ally not enemy. ”

–>Yes, Umair, pakistani’s have paid a huge price, because Pindi boyz are dragging Pakistani’s through mud, for personal profit and gain and NATO is pounding the crap out of people and it is taking its toll. Yes, brave Pak soldiers have died, and god bless them for bravely doing what they were told to do.

But you cannot claim Pakistan is fighting terrorism and turn a blind eye to what ur Pindi boyZ are doing in Kashmir. You can call it whatever you like, it is terrorism and it has prompted the Indian army to subjugate kashmiri’s….Have ur pindi boyz not sent terrorists into kashmir india, Kashmiri’s would not be suffering, you need to accept responsibility for that.

Ur Pindi boyz are pushing NATo to the brink and NATO will punish your people for the follies of your Pindi boyz, so who is at fault here?

You guys keep protecting the Quetta Shura and haqqani’s those who kill NATO soldiers, so don’t you think this decision by Pindi boyz is bringing punishment on your people?

DO you see the pattern now Umair? You can call it national interests, but Pindi boyz pursuit of nation interest is bringing the wrath of NATO on your people.

So what is ur opinion of Pindi boyz now? You seem to advocate an open cheque policy for pindi boyz without ramifications and consequences. With power and comes great responsibility.

Posted by G-W | Report as abusive
 

No one can cofront or eliminate terrorism on its own. This is the task of the united effort and therefore the UNO. the terrorism need to be identified first, not willy nilly by individual countries, for India the Kashmiri resistance is terrorism and for the americans, terrorism isthe resistance against their military operations around the world and for Russians the terrorism is from their chechanian and Dagistan resistance. Pakistan leaders are no selective either, every crime in their midst is terrorism for them. Let us reflect our intelligence and not our prejudice on this blog.
Rex Minor

Posted by pakistan | Report as abusive
 

Terrorism is killing innocents civilians in name of resistance. Killing Kashmiri Pandits in name of Islam is terrorism, for that land belongs to hindus even before muslim religion was invented but there are people who consider themselves being muslim as enlightened and often try to elevate or eliminate (of course both by force) non-muslims. Such people are terrorist. There was a man Gandhi who was hard core Hindu who called off Stayagrah (a non-violent movement against british) when people burnt a police station so as to STOP violence done by his OWN people and then there are kashmiris who burn something everyday and call it an independence struggle. Then there are people who say dont mix local cultures and rituals with religion and then themselves mix caste system and other rituals with Hindu religion when no where in religious text of Hinduism is it mentioned to burn women alive or to make someone else your slave. One one hand they want Pashtoons be left alone and not be disturbed and let them live in whatever they want even if their society is full of disease, death, unemployment, cruelties on women (come to India and do a survey among hindu and muslim women and decide for yourself which society has better conditions and laws for women) and other such evils. While on other hand they justify pashtoons coming out and killing everyone around in name of destroying power centres and establishing Islam as Islam is considered greatest to them and all else are worst; why can’t Pashtoons let others live in whatever conditions others want to live, if they don’t want others to poke their nose into their affairs then why should anyone else allow pashtoons to poke their nose everywhere, why did Taliban gave safe heaven to Laden and allow him to conduct anti-WORLD activities from their soil, is that not considered poking nose in other person’s affairs. Such double standards and false sense of extreme superiority are going to take muslim world nowhere. Turkey and Indonesia learned the coexistence formulae long long ago and now even Saudis and Iran and learning slowly to GIVE respect. When will others (especially Pakistan) learn???????

Posted by 777xxx777 | Report as abusive
 

@Umair

You still don’t get it. NATO has no intention to “bomb” Pakistan. There is no conflict with Pakistanis.

There’s just conflict with some groups that Pakistan harbours. That’s the only reason any bombs are landing in Pakistan.

I don’t buy the hogwash about Pakistani interest. Instead of defining a stable Afghanistan to be in the Pakistani interest, the generals in Rawalpindi who write foreign policy (which itself is a pecularity for a supposed democracy) have defined Pakistan’s national interest as having Afghanistan as a vassal state. And they generally refuse to cooperate with the West unless the rest of the world recognizes Pakistan as Afghanistan’s overlord.

Sorry, but the rest of the world (and Afghans) profoundly disagree with that worldview.

As for the price being paid for by Pakistanis. Again, disagree. Pakistan has been more than adequately compensated. And would probably benefit even more from a stable Aghanistan. However, it’s Rawalpindi that has decided to place their imperial ambitions in Afghanistan over Pakistan’s own well-being. If they think that they can go toe-to-toe with the entire western world, so be it. You better hope that Kayani is a damn good poker player.

Nor do I buy the argument that Pakistan has done enough. The running joke is that the most dangerous job to have in any of the Pakistan based groups or AQ is the number 2 or number 3 job because that’s who gets picked up everytime a high ranking American shows up. So if the ISI can pick up the number 2/number 3, why can’t they help actually dismantle these organizations? Oh that’s right it’s about Pakistan’s “national interest” (extortion from the West and imperial ambitions in Afghanistan).

Longer term, like I said, Pakistan’s going to face economic consequences. Not military penalties (though Pakistan is now going to have a time getting access to more advanced and sensitive weapons systems or logistics support during any conflict).

Posted by kEiThZ | Report as abusive
 

@”You still don’t get it. NATO has no intention to “bomb” Pakistan. There is no conflict with Pakistanis”

BUT that could change rather quickly, if (god forbid) there’s a successfull terrorist attack in the US/West, leading to Pakistan. Umair, that’s why it’s very important for Pakistan to cooperate NOW, rather than face the music later, ecconomically and/or militarily.

Posted by Mortal1 | Report as abusive
 

I believe all this “retribution plan” thing is just to make Americans ‘feel’ safe and hence to get their votes and nothing more. I don’t think US will be fool enough to bomb Pakistan even if the situations were even 100 times worse than now. Economic pressures are far more easier to bring Pakistan on knees. Why risk human life when dollars (or rather absence of them) will do the job. Dry up money in Pakistan (even Iran would help US when it comes to Afghanistan), bribe PA to smuggle out nukes (while PA will continue to falsely boast of nukes so as to keep Pakistani heads high falsely though), and then when all ends are tied the public of Pakistan will automatically f*** PA generals. That’s when US can ‘dictate’ terms to Pakistan and probably cleanse as well. And this is where US will fail — shrewd diplomacy. US never have been good diplomat. They might be technologically superior fighting force but wars are won with diplomacy. In India/Pakistan people think ohh India/Pakistan so called won independence but fact remains that the most high quality produce of India/Pakistan is still consumed by English while local population not even gets its glimpse. Is that not what we called slavery before 1947. That’s what shrewd diplomacy is. Even after 60 years of independence India/Pakistan’s best products are still consumed by British and locals of these countries don’t even get a glimpse of them in local market. This is where US fails. Look at Brit history in Asia region, they brewed hatred among hindus and muslims and it resulted in never ending conflict of India and Pakistan (over Kashmir), Brits brewed hatred among Pashtoons and Punjabis and it resulted in never ending conflict of Afghanistan and Pakistan (over Baluchistan), Brits brewed hatred among muslims and jews in middle east and it resulted in never ending conflict of muslims vs Israel (over Jerusalem). The seeds of all these never ending self engaging conflicts were sown by Brits. And even today they get the best products of all these regions for a very minuscule price. This is where US always failed. US does not know how to “Divide and Conquer” and Brits know it very well that one cannot conquer without dividing.

Posted by 777xxx777 | Report as abusive
 

Keith:
“the generals in Rawalpindi who write foreign policy (which itself is a pecularity for a supposed democracy) have defined Pakistan’s national interest as having Afghanistan as a vassal state. And they generally refuse to cooperate with the West unless the rest of the world recognizes Pakistan as Afghanistan’s overlord.”

-No, the Pakistan Army high command might look at Afghanistan as a place which provide Pakistan with ‘strategic depth’ in our bigger conflict with India. I can tell you a secret, India is still a significant threat to Pakistan, they are still creating trouble for us in Baluchistan. Apparently Pakistan Army does not want to enter into a direct conflict with Afghan Taliban becuase:
a) it would result in another backlash, wave of terror attack on Pakistani cities.
b) it would unite all terror groups against Pakistan
c) Pakistan Army is stretched thin, flood relief operations and other ops have created a lack of capacity and we lack concentration of forces to undertake ops.
d) Afghan Taliban are seen as a way to exert influence in Afghanistan, curb Indian influence there.

Now you tell me, is Pakistan not even allowed to define the terms even in its neighbourhood. We do not want Afghanistan to be subordinate to us. A stable, propsperous and independent/neutral Afghanistan is in our interest. We need an end to conflict with India and prevent a strategic encirclement by India, whereby a hostile India on the east and an anti-Pakistan/pro-India Afghanistan on the west.
If US/NATo can come all the way 12000 KM and pursue their interest in the region, are you willing to accomodate our concerns too. Kashmir dispute should be resolved to prevent Indo-Pak rivalry in Afghanistan.

“As for the price being paid for by Pakistanis. Again, disagree. Pakistan has been more than adequately compensated. And would probably benefit even more from a stable Aghanistan. However, it’s Rawalpindi that has decided to place their imperial ambitions in Afghanistan over Pakistan’s own well-being. If they think that they can go toe-to-toe with the entire western world, so be it. You better hope that Kayani is a damn good poker player.”

-Again you do not have an idea of the losses, man and material, number of troops KIA and wounded more than NATO/US casualties combined. Economy in tatters, loss of investment, trade run into billions of dollars. Pakistan has no imperial ambitions, we surely pursue our regional interest. What is wrong with that? The only problem is that Washington needs to align its short term interests with the long term interest of Rawalpindi.

“Nor do I buy the argument that Pakistan has done enough. The running joke is that the most dangerous job to have in any of the Pakistan based groups or AQ is the number 2 or number 3 job because that’s who gets picked up everytime a high ranking American shows up. So if the ISI can pick up the number 2/number 3, why can’t they help actually dismantle these organizations? Oh that’s right it’s about Pakistan’s “national interest” (extortion from the West and imperial ambitions in Afghanistan).”

-http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE6 9721Z20101008
Pakistan’s ISI, a hidden, frustrating power for U.S.

Again I want to remind you that we have dispute and conflict with India, it is historic dates back to partition and related to Kashmir. Things are deep rooted, complex, we need to find common goals and align our interest. US/NATo can put pressure on India to resolve Kashmir and refrain from using Afghanistan to encircle Pakistan. Thats it, and I can assure ISI will be your best friend.

“Longer term, like I said, Pakistan’s going to face economic consequences. Not military penalties (though Pakistan is now going to have a time getting access to more advanced and sensitive weapons systems or logistics support during any conflict).”

-Keith, for decades PAF suffered from lack of spares for F-16s. No new aircrafts, but now we have embarked upon indeginous programs, Chinese jets, AEW&C from Sweden, mid-air refueling tankers from Ukraine, submarines from France and Germany. For decades we have diversified the equipment and supply sources after suffering from sanctions. So this is something which will not come as a surprise nor will it bite us any harder.

I just want to reassure, Pakistan is just another country facing challenges and strive to live in peace while protecting its interest. That’s it!

Posted by Umairpk | Report as abusive
 

Keith:
“There is no conflict with Pakistanis.

There’s just conflict with some groups that Pakistan harbours. That’s the only reason any bombs are landing in Pakistan.”

- Just as Saddam did not have any WMDs, Pakistan too does not harbour ‘some groups’. No Pakistani government, and Pakistani military can withstand the severe public backlash from supporting the US/NATO when there are daily border incursions and drone attacks. Even analysts believe drone strikes are counterproductive in the long run.
Just as American public holds accountable any US President and administration. Similarly Pakistani public views NATO/US as threat and Pakistani government and military as unpopular and puppets of NATO/US.
You need patience, with strong civil society and firm democracy Pakistan will gradually change, Military will start being answerable to civil government overtime. It could take decades, but the first step already took place with 2008 elections and civil government coming into power. Do not forget the challenges that Pakistan faces. With a faulty policy towards Pakistan, NATO/US will achieve nothing.
NATO/US are pressed for a quick fix to Afghan war, but it will take time for things to settle down. Pakistan will do everything to facilitate the stabilization of Afghanistan and withdrawal of forces from there.

Posted by Umairpk | Report as abusive
 

So many anamolies about the NATO have popped up that certain basics need to be stated.
1. NATO is a pain in the a…. for many European countries, their politicians and the people. They just do not know how to get rid of the yanks? Many Europeans are desperately trying (not brits) to set up a European military Command to defend Europe.
2. The largest contingent in NATO are the turks(leaving aside the non European USA), who have defended Europe since the end of ww2 against the Soviet Union. Some americans may not know this but more than 90 percent of Turks are muslims and have now a civilian Govt. which in the past several years managed to stregnthen the democratic institutions and weakened the military hold on the country. This means no larifari to follow the American Godfather policy in the muslim countries. Infact the only modern, militarily strong and independent country, and a friend of Iran and Syria, the countries labelled by the USA as part of the axis of evil.
The overall involvement of NATO with USA is to support the development work in Afghanistan and to support the training of Afghan police and military. They are in Afghanistan on the basis of a now defunkt UNO resolution and not to start further adventure with the Americans.
Now please revise your thesis as appropriate, in view of this NATO background.
Rex Minor

Posted by pakistan | Report as abusive
 

Are you aware that it is the USA administration which is afraid of retribution and have warned their citizens travelling to Europe to stay anonymous, do not visit the crowded tourist spots or main Railway Stations. What a travesty after imposing travel restriction on some prominent Iranians, the sanctions are being extended to their own citizens. Now how should the americans hide their identity when most speak only english language with a slang in France and Germany? The good news is that they are not asked to avoid Macdonald hamburger and chips outlets. I really feel sorry for the american folks whose leaders have got them into this mess to hide their identity now in European countries which are security tight.
Rex Minor

Posted by pakistan | Report as abusive
 

ISI myth not understood by the USA, can be explained in a very simple way. ISI agents are operating throughout the world, including the USA and within CIA in the form of a double agent. This is their stregnth, the double agents in most intelligence units of the world. I would leave their knowledge of the Indian intelligence for the time being. The members of the ISI are not loners and have families, relatives and friends spread in their community. Now, with Pakistan Govt. policy against the so called Talibans and their treacherous alliance with the Americans mean that a brother will turn against a brother, his relative or the community. CERTAINLY NOT. This is the reality and with the decline of competence in basic common sense the american administration, the CIA and the zionist media ignore this reality. The one thing they should never forget that in Pakistan no brother is going to turn against his brother regardless of the conflicting political views and loyalties towards their profession. The family loyalty would always take preference. On top of that the loyalty towards UMMAH is one of the asset a muslim inherits and this is not likely to disappear in order to please a yankee.
So simple is the explanation!!!
Rex Minor

Posted by pakistan | Report as abusive
 

Rex Minor

You have made a few interesting and accurate points:

“The largest contingent in NATO are the turks(leaving aside the non European USA), who have defended Europe since the end of ww2 against the Soviet Union. Some americans may not know this but more than 90 percent of Turks are muslims and have now a civilian Govt. which in the past several years managed to stregnthen the democratic institutions and weakened the military hold on the country. This means no larifari to follow the American Godfather policy in the muslim countries. Infact the only modern, militarily strong and independent country, and a friend of Iran and Syria, the countries labelled by the USA as part of the axis of evil.”

-You are right, I agree with you. Turkey under the AKP Party and President Tayib Erdogan has seen Ankara’s influence grow significantly in recent years both regionally and internationally. It has severed ties with Israel to a minimum, regularly cancelled scheduled military exercises with Israel. Took a tough stand over Gaza blockade, confronted Washington, independently forged good relations with Iran and Syria, brokered talks between Pakistan and Afghanistan too. In short Turkey is a rising star in Europe to watch out for. Go Turkey!

As I stated above, and repeat that NATO’s so-called mandate (which is not even legitimate absent UNO) ends on the Pak-Afghan border and it has no jurisdiction whatsoever to undertake any operations on Pakistani soil.

“ISI agents are operating throughout the world, including the USA and within CIA in the form of a double agent. This is their stregnth, the double agents in most intelligence units of the world. ”

-I would say ISI is a thoroughly professional and competent organization. It runs an official level counterintelligence program against CIA in Pakistan. The CIA station chief is aware of it, primarily CIA would try to penetrate and acquire info on sensitive matters related to Pakistan’s nuclear program. While ISI under the counterintelligence program would frequently run double agents, feed wrong info etc and used such tactics to keep a close eye on CIA activities within Pakistan.

One of the main success for Pakistan here is that as long as ISI continues to be the first line of defense it can prevent outside intervention and safeguard Pakistan from internal strife orchestrated by outside. This is bad news for anyone who would want to manipulate Pakistan’s domestic circumstances (Political, security, etc).

http://www.stratfor.com/geopolitical_dia ry/20101007_conflicting_interests_betwee n_us_and_pakistans_isi

The ISI and Conflicting Interests Between the United States and Pakistan

“the ISI, whose past relationship with the jihadists is known to all but whose present relationship with those groups remains opaque. The uncertainty of that relationship explains the statements from various U.S. officials in which they tend to distinguish the leadership of the ISI and the Pakistani army from certain unidentifiable elements within the directorate. The ISI, along with the wider Pakistani military establishment, is in the middle of a historic transition from developing Islamist militant proxies to regaining control over the landscape it once nurtured.”

Posted by Umairpk | Report as abusive
 

@Umair
Pakistan needs people like you as their leaders. The ISI is the only breakthrough of the military, establishing their spy agency second to none. The military is overall very weak in their structure and the philosaphy they learn in their training schools is not of an independent country. The military must be decolonised.
Reforms are needed in all the civil institutions as well, concentrating on domestic policies. In fact I would degrade the position of a foreign mionister and upgrade the position of the interior minister in a developing country. The people are too emotional, certain clear lines are needed for education of the masses without criminalising the Islamic parties, madrassas and religious institutions. The anglo saxons are not the examples to follow nor are the examples of the Indian society is going to provide Pakistan a better status. What is needed is a peaceful revolution, not the blind follow up of the western culture or the camel riders of the arab countries who were equally robbed of their cultures, traditions and independence by no other than the anglo saxons. To be a muslim is the unmatched wealth the people of Pakistan possess, but how they have performed during the past sixty odd years is a pathetic story. People are the assets of the country and they need to be educated and developed. There are no short cuts in progress. They need education, education and education.

Pakistan has the potential to be the leader of the Islamic world, but they need to develope the peoples potential. They can not match the performance of the non-believers including Chinese and Japan, but certainly outmatch the performane of the christian societies who are on the decay on account of so called liberalisation.
Have a nice day.
Rex Minior

Posted by pakistan | Report as abusive
 

@Rex Minor,

Like many smooth talkers before, you are sweet of tongue, but deadly in intention between the lines.

In your world, you would rollback rights for women, destroy any religious competition through murder, hook and crook and decriminalize all militant groups.

In your world, Rex you are a staunch lover of the 7th century, you would genocide minorities or crush them by force through conversions.

I understand the appeal of this creed and way of thinking, what it means to men, the 7th century allows men to be men and have their cake and eat it too. This type of thinking, left to its own devices, would effectively diminish and kill all forms of creativity, true spirituality and brotherhood will all ways in which God has revealed himself to different types of peoples.

If you truly believe what you preach, why do you even dirty your hands using western made cell phones and computers and wear western clothes?

Believing in one thing or another thing is not ultimate be all and end all of ultimate truth, wisdom or spiritual achievement. As long as people like you continue to preach that they have cornered God’s love and all others are non-believers, this will continue to lead humanity towards war, clashes and misery. Stepping back from it all, do you think this is what God would want his children to do…butcher each other in his name? Because if that is what we choose to do…we are are unknowingly being deceived and serving two masters and that is not really allowed.

In this regard, you should quit politicizing Islam and focus on the actual politics of the land. Religion and politics should be kept separate as mixing the two, actually dirties religion and separates human from god.

Posted by G-W | Report as abusive
 

Rex said: “Pakistan has the potential to be the leader of the Islamic world, but they need to develope the peoples potential. They can not match the performance of the non-believers including Chinese and Japan, but certainly outmatch the performane of the christian societies who are on the decay on account of so called liberalisation”

Ohh!! Man, talk of hatred and pouring venom. He blamed Indians for pouring venom on Pakistan and what he does himself now, pouring venom and hatred on all non-muslims.

Umair, would you like to be appreciated by someone who is so much blinded by religion and leaves no opportunity of spreading religious bigotry? Would you like to be appreciated by a person who is just so much opposed to co-existence with so called Kaafirs? Would you like to be appreciated by someone who keeps spreading propaganda that Pak nukes (and effectively Pak sovereignty) is in control of ‘Taliban’? Would you like to be appreciated by someone who considers ‘Taliban’ as pious and pure and considers Laden to be Allah’s man and a so called believer? Above all would you like to be a staunch muslim country and lead no one or would you like Pakistan to become more acceptable to co-existence and hence to become a leader of South Asia? Every single Pakistani needs to do some soul searching and find the right answers. Lets hope better sense prevails. Amen!!!

Posted by 777xxx777 | Report as abusive
 

@Gw
For you to interpret my comments in such a manner simply shows the lack of your english knowledge and the intution we all need if we want to understand the intended interprertation beyond that is obvious in words. Your stretch wasnot necessary. I can assure you that my message was a very straight forward one and without any sordid thinking or malice towards others. Every religion guides people a way to the almighty as well as a civilised way to come to understanding within a community.
To three 7 verbatum, I have nothing to add.
He appears to be sometimes angry and most of the times confused.
Rex Minor

Posted by pakistan | Report as abusive
 

@GW
I do not believe that Islam be politicised nor be criminalised by the behaviour of one or more so called muslims who at one or other time confessed to be a muslim. Those who kill others, muslim or non muslims, must answer the God almighty. I have no problems with the secular system as long as the liberalisation process does not take the course which we are experiencing in USA and Europe with the demographic problem.
Rex manner

Posted by pakistan | Report as abusive
 

Pakistan “Every religion guides people a way to the almighty as well as a civilised way to come to understanding within a community.”

***I see now for these few seconds u have chosen to mark all religions as civilized and leading towards almighty. What happened to your older theory that Abrahamic religions are the believers and others such as Hindus who idolize their trillion Gods are not believers. So who is the almighty now for them.

Lies and misconceptions have one weakness that they need constant lying to keep them afloat. Now give me that ultimate dagger that I did not understand English or that I am too complicated for you.

Let me leave it at positive note and request you to stick with what you said here since this is the reasonable explanations. Add to it the non-believers (the atheists) who do not hurt anyone and have their own driving force to achieve the same goals.

Posted by rehmat | Report as abusive
 

@Re(h)ma
You are a fool, I said religions and not aetheists or buddhists? Their philosaphy of the life is different and not guided by the scriptures, the commandments from God almighty which the Jews, the christians and muslims believe in. This is not to say that others are not humans and possess no humanity. My own experience with some hindus and aetheists has been that they demonstrate a deeper knowledge of metaphysic, show more humanity than those who carry the arabic names, full stop.
Rex Minor

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Pakistan

Do not be childish and start using the name that I use for posting. It is matter of basic etiquette. Don;t I use “Pakistan” for you? It must be quite difficult for you to type: “Re(h)ma”!!!

@You are a fool, I said religions and not aetheists or buddhists?
***If fool is what separates me from you, I pick that one. I never used Buddhists unless you are confusing Hinduism with that. The former is a GODless religion by the way. You just do not get someone’s point.

@My own experience with some hindus and aetheists has been that they demonstrate a deeper knowledge of metaphysic, show more humanity than those who carry the arabic names, full stop.”
***Do not forget what you said next time you talk about non-believers. Is that what you said above the reason why you lost your Arabic name if you ever had any?

My effort is towards co-existence and tolerance, the very needs of increasingly multicultural societies we have these days. In general my comments reflect that.

We need more fools like me in Germany to make it more tolerable society if you read the current news.

Posted by rehmat | Report as abusive
 

@rehmat
“The former is a GODless religion by the way”

So is Jainism; Buddhism and Jainism both are God less religions and believe it is the humans that have the power inside them to attain salvation. And unlike hinduism both buddhism and jainism have absolutely no traces of caste system in their philosophy of life. Although there are different sects among them as well. But the best part is that both have wilfully accepted the Hindu Civil Law in India (which means according to Law they are hindus) and are living quite happily with everyone else in India. There are large number of marriages among Jains, Bhudds and Hindus nowadays which is further indicative of increasing cohesiveness. I agree with you perfectly that in today’s multicultural environment we all need to learn formulae of co-existence. Now I even heard of marriages between hindus and muslims which is a great news. This is the kind of cohesiveness we need today. A nation of a billion proud Indians with one of the oldest civilisations and one the most diversified cultural heritage have got a thing or two to teach the world. But problem is when will Pakistan learn?

Posted by 777xxx777 | Report as abusive
 

@777

Hindus Buddhist and Jains have similarity that they originate from the same region in general and arguably branched from Hinduism. So is Sikhism. Buddhism is largely gone now except Lamas.

Hindu law works for them. Abrahamic religions Islam and Christianity have their own code in the constitution since they are culturally and regionally different from Hinduism.

“But the best part is that both have wilfully accepted the Hindu Civil Law in India (which means according to Law they are hindus) and are living quite happily with everyone else in India.”
***It will not work in India. There is a history behind it. Co-existence is one thing but losing existence is another. Saying “which means according to Law they are hindus” is a trouble and unpalatable to many. Will not work in India. RSS does that with Sikhs that they are like Hindus, Sikhs happily co-exist but do not like to be called Hindus by any means.

Perhaps it will happen down the line but 60yrs post-independence is just a blink of an eye when you see when Muslims first arrived in India.

Posted by rehmat | Report as abusive
 

@rehmat
NO NO NO NO man you got me all wrong…or may be I put bad English…whatever

I never meant to say give up one’s identity. All I said was that in legal cases of property and marriage disputes and rights, the Jains, Bhuddhists and Sikhs have willfully accepted Hindu laws. That’s it. So per law they are all HUF(Hindu Undivided Family) and it is already working well. It never means giving up identity. NEVER. And as for Law I believe it should not be dependent on any one religion or favouring any one community and should be based on human values. And in my opinion Hindu law comes as close as it could be to being human even if it goes against Hindu religion itself. For example until a few years back a widow could not claim ancestral property (that which her husband inherited) of her husband but only claim what her husband has bought which was somewhat as per Hindu traditions. But Hindus saw flaw in this approach on ground reality where widows were cheated by and large. So as per changing conditions law was modified such that now widow gets everything her husband owned be it ancestral or bought by him. So that’s kind of dynamism that’s missing in other communities like Muslim and Christians. And because of such human angle to Hindu law it is wilfully accepted by Sikhs, Jains and Buddhs. And your idea of Muslims in India being culturally different from Hindus doesn’t cut ice with me. All know that those who are today Muslims in India are those whose ancestors were Hindus in history but who converted to Islam either by force or by will, choose your pick whatever you like. So only faith changed but culture did not. Do not confuse culture with faith. And I have not seen any keenness on part of any Muslim leaders in India to make Muslim civil law more human and more women empowering. So please do not think that I am asking someone to give up their identity; all I am talking of is legal matters’ jurisdiction because those legal jurisdictions affect human life in a huge huge manner.

Posted by 777xxx777 | Report as abusive
 

@rehmat
I am sorry for my oct 16 post! I find your debate with 777 very interesting.

Rex Minor

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@rehmat
I guess Rex is ASSUMING that me and you are debating (bickering/fighting). I would appreciate if could you please confirm to him that as fellow, sensible and responsible Indians we are just discussing conditions and difficulties our country faces today and then trying to discuss the positive options and solutions.

@Rex
By the way your divisive and super self centric nature is quite evident to me and, I am sure, to Rehmat as well.

Posted by 777xxx777 | Report as abusive
 

777:

I lost a whole post when my browser shut down. Just being quick here.

I am for UCC. UCC was envisioned by framers of the constitution with time. 60yrs gone and lack of discussion and mostly on the negative side is not helping it.

HOWEVER, why call it “Hindu Law” when the idea is to have UCC? That does not sit well with many and people think it will be lead to loss of identity. Agreed you do not mean that, I am not sure you can say the same thing about the Hindu Radicals who also want UCC. At least get rid if the name “Hindu” in “Hindu Law”.

Also agree that Hinduism has been progressive and happily removed unnecessary age old customs. Personal laws cannot be reformed at the same pace. All India Muslim Personal Law Board has called for abstaining from Triple Talaq. It is no where near what should happen but it is not stagnant. Sterotyping of Muslims and MPL has masked any progress made by reformist or the discussion. Gender equality in MPL has been called for my Muslims reformists and books have been written. Historically India accepts changes naturally and gradually. One chance to have UCC was post 1947 when personal laws were first introduced.

We cannot lose track of history that people of all faiths have been living here for centuries now.

“All know that those who are today Muslims in India are those whose ancestors were Hindus in history but who converted to Islam either by force or by will, choose your pick whatever you like. So only faith changed but culture did not.”
***Hard to say what really happened. No one has a handle on the subject. This is the subject on which academicians have published papers. It is complex. Lots of things happened including use of sword and word. If Sufism (incorporating non-Muslim values) has anything to do with spread then it was peaceful. Political Islam converted using sword. My personal opinion is that examples of conversions by sword are more glamorous and attract attention but not good enough to explain this large number of conversions. this is not the subject for discussion and is of mere academic interest any way.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Rex Minor

“I am sorry for my oct 16 post! I find your debate with 777 very interesting.”
***I appreciate that. HOWEVER, one danger is that you will withdraw it since soon I may say something which you do not like. I hope my “debate with 777″ is not a reason for it? UCC is an issue in India and we are sharing our opinions. Jump in if you want.

Posted by rehmat | Report as abusive
 

@rehmat
“I lost a whole post when my browser shut down. Just being quick here.”

It happens often with me that Reuters does not show the post. So what i do is first i write in notepad and then copy paste it into reuters. That way i do not lose and if not shown first time then i can copy paste twice or thrice. Works for me!!

Ok back to discussion.

“HOWEVER, why call it “Hindu Law” when the idea is to have UCC? That does not sit well with many and people think it will be lead to loss of identity. Agreed you do not mean that, I am not sure you can say the same thing about the Hindu Radicals who also want UCC. At least get rid if the name “Hindu” in “Hindu Law”.”

I couldn’t agree with you more. And tell you what UCC has not been realised because it is called “Hindu” law. Because of name the law is being treated as a threat to identity which is far from truth. I have myself been in heated debates with some very “hard” hindu followers that why make UCC be called “Hindu” law….we want hindu name or the good law? So yes u r right that name “Hindu” in law should be dropped and given that it is hardly Hindu anymore. As for radicals, they are same in all communities. Divide and Rule is an age old mantra, hindu books speak of “saam, daam, dand, bhed” (dialogue, bribe, punishment and division) as the four weapons of politics in increasing order of effectiveness and sometimes I think if the Brits learned it in India…who knows, but nothing new in it. It is for us to not fall in their traps.

“Gender equality in MPL has been called for my Muslims reformists and books have been written.”

But you would agree that MPLB has been hijacked by the male chauvinists for fulfilling their political ends. I mean there was a time when it was legal for Hindus to burn a woman alive with her husband or make her live as widow for rest of her life BUT today, you would agree, hindu women enjoy more empowering laws than anywhere in the world. In India if law is X then power to people on ground in X/10 but what if law itself is X/10? We all remember that when in 2006 (not sure if it was 06 or 07) a muslim woman was raped by her father-in-law and then all the bearded “thekedaars” of muslim community in India were busy issuing fatwas against the women herself, I was shell shocked. And to add to it MPLB was mum on the whole issue. What do you say to that? How could MPLB not have a clear conscience in case of crimes as heinous as rape? Do you think that is some kind of progress or do you think these bearded ****s should have any right to try cases like rape?? Rape cases being put up to mullahs….which century are we living in?? I don’t know what progress MPLB has made since then but they have definitely not been as swift as their hindu counterparts.

I may have put up difficult questions but they are all true to a large extent. I remember you telling that u r Ph.D. and I enormously respect highly educated people but when it comes to personal laws sometimes frictions may surface (specially when all of it is coming from a hindu), although i hope we continue discussing as fellow Indians and not as typical hindu-muslim. But I especially feel for muslim women as I firmly believe that the greatest symbol of being civilised is how a society treats its women. Hindu history has been full of shameful acts towards women but in modern days Hindus have been far more active and adaptive for change.

“***Hard to say what really happened……this is not the subject for discussion and is of mere academic interest any way. ”

No no man I am not discussing conversions. No one can ever know what happened. I only said faith has changed but not culture as there is a big difference between culture and faith. That’s it. Muslims in India are not Arabs despite that they follow the religion of Arab lands.

Posted by 777xxx777 | Report as abusive
 

@Rahmat
As long as we are civil and have a dialogue and debate on the issues, without the use of personal attacks, it is o’k with me. I have never been to India, nor do I have any knowledge of the one billuion citizens living their daily lives, other than what we see in the European newspapers. Therefore, i am reading with interest the post between two indian citizens.
Rex Minor

Posted by pakistan | Report as abusive
 

@Rex
So you finally trying to learn about India from Indians. Good. Appreciated.

Posted by 777xxx777 | Report as abusive
 

@777

“And to add to it MPLB was mum on the whole issue. What do you say to that? How could MPLB not have a clear conscience in case of crimes as heinous as rape? Do you think that is some kind of progress or do you think these bearded ****s should have any right to try cases like rape?? Rape cases being put up to mullahs….which century are we living in?? I don’t know what progress MPLB has made since then but they have definitely not been as swift as their hindu counterparts.”

***AIMPLB was not mum rather endorsed the decisions making it worse. In the end, police intervened after pressures from some women rights group in India and the guy is behind the bars.

“But you would agree that MPLB has been hijacked by the male chauvinists for fulfilling their political ends. “
***MPLB would do what people want as it happens in politics. People need to be more aware which many times correlates with the education and prosperity in general. When people do not want the cases to be decided in old fashion, change will happen at the top.

Muslims who are becoming aware of this not at the pace to your and my liking may be. YEs you are right, I am a Ph.D. and I know many Indian Muslims– my friends and colleagues– who are PhDs. Education is a big plus but that alone does not help. After all we are born and brought up in a system and the useless baggage is hard to check out and we carry it all the time without knowing it. I have a Ph.D/MBA Indian Muslim friend whose wife is Burqa clad. I have seen her Burqa disappearing with time at her own will. I can see the change in my life time in short time. This may all be a bit of digression but the issues are interlinked. Changes happen at the bottom and the leaders would deliver what masses want. While one to one discussion is OK, same cannot be extended to the massess. Slow change is what is natural. The best time was post 1947 for UCC where sudden change would have been more acceptable.

“I mean there was a time when it was legal for Hindus to burn a woman alive with her husband or make her live as widow for rest of her life BUT today, you would agree, hindu women enjoy more empowering laws than anywhere in the world.”
*** Sati was stopped by Brits. Am I right? I cannot say Hindu women enjoy more empowering than anywhere in the world. There must be some rankings about it. That should tell.

I said: “***Hard to say what really happened……this is not the subject for discussion and is of mere academic interest any way. ””
You said: “No no man I am not discussing conversions.”
***that was in response to your statement “………. converted to Islam either by force or by will, choose your pick whatever you like.”

While we are at it, can you tell me why Buddhism disappeared. I think it was by Hindus who felt threatened by the rise of Buddhism. Hinduism still stays despite the rise of Mughal power. That is not admiring Aurangzeb etc here and I acknowledge there was violence and atrocities have happened but co-existence between Hindus and Muslims was always there.

Back to the personal laws: These personal laws are faith based. Even culture varies even among Muslims and had different personal laws until they were brought under one banner of MPL.

Posted by rehmat | Report as abusive
 

@rehmat
“People need to be more aware which many times correlates with the education and prosperity in general. When people do not want the cases to be decided in old fashion, change will happen at the top.”

Education yes but prosperity I am not sure. I have seen some very rich muslims with very old fashioned thinking so not sure if prosperity is also a factor in awareness. For Change at top again there have been mixed experiences of everyone. One can say since education changes thinking of masses, and it is responsibility of top to give education to masses, with awareness among masses people would critically adjudge guys at top so why will leaders would want to educate masses in first place? But for most of Hindu history people have always regarded advancement and modernisation in education very highly. Since the times of Ajatshatru in Magadh or may be even before Hindus adored the senior scholars and modern education was always respected and was sought after. So your observation of changing masses first may be right or may be wrong.

“*** Sati was stopped by Brits. Am I right?”
Not quite. There were reformers like Raja Ram Mohan Roy, Vivekanad, etc who ferociously opposed Sati. Then there was that man we know as M. K. Gandhi who vehemently opposed Sati as it was more prevelant near to his place in neighbouring state of Rajasthan. And finally read “The Commission of Sati (Prevention) Act of 1987″ in any law book on women rights.

And I didn’t get why you said so much in that Ph.D. para. I mean I don’t understand it at all. What’s your point? If you think I taunted you then let me tell you I always wanted to be a Ph.D. but my family conditions were never so that I could do it so you can understand my genuine respect for anyone who is so highly educated. But if you acknowledging my respect for your education then I am glad. All I wanted to say was that I respect you but since in my opinion I feared (surely falsely) that you MAY take my questions personally that’s why I said that I respect your education and hence want you to continue discussing, the country we love, as fellow countrymen and I am glad that you replied.

***Conversions…
OK I may have put a bad statement there. Accept my sincerest apologies. But my intention was to say that faith and culture in my opinion are two mutually exclusive things which largely do not effect each other in any big way.

****Buddhism
Disappearing of bhuddism may have many causes. In my opinion any religion can spread ONLY and ONLY when some very powerful dynasty endorses it for at least a couple of centuries. In case of Buddhism it rise and fall were both sharp. And so was the case of Jainism. But still disappear is not the correct word I would say. Have you ever visited Bodh Gaya? If not then I recommend you do, its a nice place. Its in Bihar (Magadh) and it is well connected to major cities of India by rail network.

****rise of Mughal power
I do not consider it as any rise. Mughals could only rule Northern and some eastern parts of India. Mughals could never conquer Rajputs or Marathas or any southern parts. Hence larger concentration of muslims in north and east India as compared to south and west. Aurangzeb did conquer all briefly but his kingdom was always full of violence and uprisings.

“These personal laws are faith based”
In my personal opinion that is the real root of trouble. Hindus realised this root and pulled it out of personal laws.

“The best time was post 1947 for UCC where sudden change would have been more acceptable”

I don’t think so. Or at least our leaders that time did not had such a vision. Had our leaders then had any such vision they would have first made two child policy as law straight away. And I think that may be its good that it was not done at that time because somehow I cannot stop thinking that had there been a UCC in 1947 then its reform would have been much much slower and Hindus would have been still living under age old laws. So its kind of good that hindus were on their own and hence could reform faster than what could have done with a UCC in 1947 given the pace of modernising of muslims personal laws in 63 years. But you surely reflect hope and that is heartening to see.

Posted by 777xxx777 | Report as abusive
 

777

I want to make a statement to begin with that I do not get disturbed by a statement here and there, so go ahead.

“Education yes but prosperity I am not sure.”
***Agreed. Education also does not help sometimes, next step is wisdom. Education helps in many ways. Wisdom requires no education but such cases are small in number.

“One can say since education changes thinking of masses, and it is responsibility of top to give education to masses, with awareness among masses people would critically adjudge guys at top so why will leaders would want to educate masses in first place?”
***who is “top” here? It is the Indian govt –state and central education boards and the policies. Muslim leadership is what controls MPL. Indian govt can help in educating the masses leading to awareness which in turn will force changes in MPL Board thinking or changing any other nut.

@Sati was stopped by Brits. Am I right?”
“Not quite. There were reformers like Raja Ram Mohan Roy, Vivekanad, etc who ferociously opposed Sati. Then there was that man we know as M. K. Gandhi who vehemently opposed Sati as it was more prevelant near to his place in neighbouring state of Rajasthan. And finally read “The Commission of Sati (Prevention) Act of 1987? in any law book on women rights.”
***Well, Sikhism is refined version of Hinduism and I am sure Guru Nanak Dev would have spoken against Sati Practice. I know Muslim rulers also actively tried to stop this. Well it is gone today, hopefully totally, is good.

@Buddhism
***OK it is not disappearance. That is a bit loosely used statement on my part. Buddhism thrived for long time (~1000Yrs). I agree there are several causes for downfall. Shankracharya is often blamed for this. He revived Hinduism at the cost of Buddhism. I have not been to Bodh Gaya.

Well let me come out of details, I was trying to see how religions interacted in the past: Hinduism/Buddhism and Hinduism/Islam relationships. I have an in impression that Hinduism (let me be proper it is not the religion) contributed to that. More specifically the orthodox Brahimins who had power were a big factor. The nature of Buddhism itself was that it was mainly practiced in monasteries and is thus easier to target. While it branched from Hinduism it is easier to imagine that it can easily merge back in Hinduism.

Comparatively, Mughal power has not tried to eliminate Hinduism, historically speaking. As I said event have taken place but Hinduism did not die. Muslims became part of the place and lived there for centuries.

@****rise of Mughal power
“I do not consider it as any rise.”
***That;s fine too. But did Hinduism faced existential threat at places where Muslims ruled. I do not think so.

“Or at least our leaders that time did not had such a vision. Had our leaders then had any such vision they would have first made two child policy as law straight away.”
***Population is the major problem. That can be fixed by education/awareness without changing personal laws. In Indian democracy even after UCC, it is the people who will decide how many to have. As discussed earlier, there are several other laws that need to be modernized so that is where UCC will help.

@Ph.D.
I did not express myself clearly. NO I did not take your statement as a taunt. Rather that’s a complement. Thanks. That example of the couple I gave you (my friends) was to tell you that I have seen changes happening in people’s thinking and they change with time when they feel so without anyone forcing them at all.

Posted by rehmat | Report as abusive
 

@Rehmat
Could you please elaborate on ‘education’? Have there been any reforms on the education system in India since Partition? I note that indian citizens are running around in the world like headless chickens trying to obtain basic learning in places as far as Australia and the USA. Are there no elite schools or universities for the citizens within India?
Thank you.
Rex Minor

Posted by pakistan | Report as abusive
 

PS
Incidently, same goes for Pakistan!
Rex Minor

Posted by pakistan | Report as abusive
 

@rehmat

“Wisdom requires no education but such cases are small in number. ”
That’s why we need education for all.

“***who is “top” here? It is the Indian govt”
Yes and that’s the problem. We can have good government only when people are aware, people will be aware when people are educated and people will get mass scale education only when there is good government. In computer science we call it inter-process/thread deadlock. Nothing moving on because everything is waiting on something else to move.

@Buddhism
Shankracharya and other fools like him are at best hired goons for gaining political ends. Nothing more than that. Don’t ever follow these goons is my advice to all.

“He revived Hinduism at the cost of Buddhism”
When you pour water from one glass to another the first one will become empty. So if there are conversions then this will happen with any set of two religions then why say “at the cost of”.

“But did Hinduism faced existential threat at places where Muslims ruled”

See you must have heard of this riddle, If 3 pegions are perching on a tree branch and you shoot one then how many are left? One? NO Answer is ZERO. Why? Because other 3 die of fear. Or may be answer lies in the fact that why have any punishment for murder/rape? Will punishment undo the crimes? NO. Then why punish? So that it installs fear of law in others and this fear acts as a deterrent for further criminal activities. So in the initial rule of muslim rulers this is what they did. They attacked extremely small group of hindus and did a lot of propaganda so that other hindus be made to fear of the muslim rule and there was a perceived existential threat to hinduism. How real that threat was, is/was a different thing. Then there was great mughal Mohammad Jalaludin Akbar. Sure he was brutal to his enemies but a nice man at heart. He realised same thing under Bairam Khan that Ashoka realised after Kalinga. Mad killing will lead nowhere. Whom will you rule if you kill all? This realisation plus his upbringing among hindus for a some period made him a man of both communities. He was the first one to give confidence to hindus that muslims are not out to annihilate hindus and showed the true colours of Islam to India which speaks of tolerance and coexistence. He was the first muslim ruler one to order that no meat business be conducted in chandni chowk, Delhi for 10 auspicious days of Jains. Akbar was the one who really adopted India and rest is history. But yes the after effects of that perceived threat are still widespread in hindu society, one major problem being inter-caste marriages. In pre-muslim era caste was not so much rigid. A brahmin girl could marry a soldier man or vice versa and other combinations. But after there was the perceived threat the hindus became deeply rigid so as to protect hinduism from that perceived threat. I have researched so deep after me and my girlfriend suffered because of this mentality of our parents. And only and only solution of this is education and nothing but education. All we can hope is that we could eliminate this plague of caste in next 50 years or so with help from all Indians including help from muslims like you as well who could tell their hindu friends to come out of this bullshit caste system.

@population
UCC is not the ultimate answer but could be a decent begining.

“I have seen changes happening in people’s thinking and they change with time when they feel so without anyone forcing them at all.”
Yes but sometimes somethings need a change faster than an individual’s pace so as to maintain balance of society as a whole. Population is one such problem that cannot be left to individual’s pace. Can you think of some more like this?

Posted by 777xxx777 | Report as abusive
 

@Rex
“Are there no elite schools or universities for the citizens within India?”

Problem is not quality. Problem is quantity of quality. When I appeared for engineering entrance exams back in 2002, there were like just 7 IITs (epitomes of Indian engineering studies, dream of every engineering student in school). And IIT graduates do some of the greatest research around the world. But in a country of 1 billion only 7 good universities with each having an intake of 400 or so per year. Today there are now 12 or so IIT universities but still demand is tremendous. I am engineer so I know of this lack of quantity of quality in engineering but I am sure same is case with other fields as well. Quality missing is at the M. Tech level. At Masters and Doctorate level there is serious lack of quality in engineering in India which in short means the education level is fine but research level is not, at least not in engineering.

Rehmat, please correct me if my analysis above missed any point.

Posted by 777xxx777 | Report as abusive
 

@777
I had meant non-technical education! I was referring to Rehmats comments on population problem and the fix with education. I am a great believer in the power of skilled and educated citizens. A one billion people is the power, but without making them a cohesive force they could become a hinderence in your aspiration for India to become a super power. We are watching the downfall of the imperialist America, which, like the Romans , have all along been glorifying their military to conduct wars for progress. Is India going to follow suit or chart a different independent course and provide education for the population at all levels.
A Nation of a billion people could become an asset not only for India but the whole of the world. Is the Indian leadership prepared and willing to distribute the national wealth more evenly and with justice OR follow the free for all “AMERICAN DREAM” philosaphy, whatever that means. Let us remember that the citizens in your country are not the migrants from all over the world(like in USA) but natives of the land.
Rex Minor

Posted by pakistan | Report as abusive
 

Rex:

In context of the ongoing discussion, education means uniform learning of all the knowledge and skills and values that a society has in order to keep harmony in the society across generations and bringing individual and collective prosperity and hopefully wisdom.
Education reforms are continuing. Wish I was expert enough to speak on all subjects!

“I note that indian citizens are running around in the world like headless chickens trying to obtain basic learning in places as far as Australia and the USA. Are there no elite schools or universities for the citizens within India?”

**Please use better expression.
Tell me what you mean by “basic learning” and give me an example.

India has colleges so elite that it is easier to get into colleges abroad than in let us say IIT India. I suggest you google for IIT India, IISc Bangalore, IIM India, CSIR, TIFR Mumbai, CSIR Institutes. Same goes for China if I give you an example of Peking University which is elite. Many of these places (IIT IISc Peking Univ) are known very well abroad. You can tell me about Pakistan on this.

Population is the HUGE problem (read as bold and in font size 40). Despite expansion of colleges, getting into higher education institutes in a good Grad School is not that easy. It is easier to get into a better school in the USA versus that in India. Same goes for China.

I have no idea what you really meant by basic learning so I do not want to expand this further.

Let us connect this with Muslim majority countries. Why in your view is lack of University/education Institutes in these countries. Saudis are “God father of USA” (your words), petro rich and still lack higher education Institutes, enough entertainment centers though. Do you think there is distraction because of some other factors. I know you admire Pushtoons. Do you see any point of educating these Pushtoons in Afghanistan? Perhaps Saudis can fund that. How long can they stay like this?

Posted by rehmat | Report as abusive
 

@Rahmat
Sorry, I have not been able to express my question in a proper way. let us leave it at that. Thanks anyway-
Rex Minor

Posted by pakistan | Report as abusive
 

@Rex

“Sorry, I have not been able to express my question in a proper way. let us leave it at that. Thanks anyway”
***If you say so.
I won’t say the same that I did not ask a question in proper way in my last para. My first question about lack of focus on education in Muslim majority countries, such as Petro rich Saudi Arabia (example), is very relevant.

I am fine with us moving on.

Posted by rehmat | Report as abusive
 

Rex,
I agree with you that people are asset but 1 billion people in such a small land space are a menace. It is easy for outsiders to make intelligent comments as 1 billion people country has great potential and so on but those who really know ground realities are the ones facing the music. I would agree with Rehmat that Population explosion in India is the HUGE problem (read as bold and in font size 40). But at least a law has been passed by parliament that is known as RTE (Right to Education) under which every child is entitled to at least primary education. So things are being tried and changes will come but 60 years is not enough to judge a country. So please be fair in your assessment.

Rehmat,
It is normal for Rex to run away from tough questions raised about his beloved holy lands of believers. I am sure you are not surprised with him showing back to your questions. By the way me and you were discussing UCC above, so any thoughts to what I said on 28-Oct-2010.

Posted by 777xxx777 | Report as abusive
 

@777

“Yes and that’s the problem. We can have good government only when people are aware, people will be aware when people are educated and people will get mass scale education only when there is good government. In computer science we call it inter-process/thread deadlock. Nothing moving on because everything is waiting on something else to move.”
***Except for some revolution, changes happen slow. One thing that I have seen is that people do not sink back into illiteracy/poverty once they are out of it. This happens for several positive changes but they are isolated. That is a good word you used to describe the situation.

@Buddhism
“Shankracharya and other fools like him are at best hired goons for gaining political ends.”
***I am talking about the one 1000Yrs ago. Was it Adi Shankracharya?

“When you pour water from one glass to another the first one will become empty. So if there are conversions then this will happen with any set of two religions then why say “at the cost of”.
*** Revival can be without conversions.

That brings me to an interesting scenario while we are discussing it. You know that monasteries were demolished and Hindu temples built during all this time of Buddhism downfall. This is a case of Ayodhya except that the Buddhists are not going demolish a temple, where there was originally a monastery.

“All we can hope is that we could eliminate this plague of caste in next 50 years or so with help from all Indians including help from muslims like you as well who could tell their hindu friends to come out of this bullshit caste system.”
***This happens, not always though, when people get out of their traditional l habitats. Caste system may be more visible in a remote village of Bihar than in Mumbai or Delhi.

Reservation system will not let casteism go forever. Why not totally scrap the reservations and promote free education for the poor and let all compete at the same level. This will still benefit several kinds of minorities including the ones who are already benefitting, and Muslims who are poor and would take away benefit from those who are good enough to be on their own. There are many layers to it if the idea is to be pursued. This reservation system is making the beneficiaries educated and richer but lazier not any smarter. As long as reservations stay caste system will stay. No one is going to bell this cat.

@population
“Population is one such problem that cannot be left to individual’s pace. Can you think of some more like this?”
***I have not seen exactly like the one example I gave you earlier but I have seen several in my profession in terms of the thought process. But this still remains the isolated cases overall. UCC is not going to control population as you noted that UCC is not the ultimate answer.

For UCC to happen, the name Hindu needs to be dropped from Hindu Law to satisfy the Muslim minority, which is reasonable. Again, can you see the protectors of Hinduism such as Narender Modi or VHP etc will see the word Hindu dropped from Hindu Law before we have UCC?

Posted by rehmat | Report as abusive
 

shortly the retribution plan will be history
once there is such an attack on the usa china will intervene to say it wont tolerate any us retribution attack on pakistan
despite appeasement of pakistan such attacks will occur periodically starting sooner rather than later
why? any successful extortionist protection racket over time requires that there are periodic reminders of the consequences of any possible defaults and mental intimidation of those who pay protection- or it will fail
the isi is well aware of this

Posted by buntyj | Report as abusive
 

@rehmat
“I am talking about the one 1000Yrs ago. Was it Adi Shankracharya?”

Largest reason was fall of Guptas which created a power vaccum. Because of this vaccum there were a large number of small kingdoms that USED religion with help from brahmins (because budhhists at that time stayed away from politics) to FOOL their ordinary JANTTA. Sounds familiar…even today JANTTA is a fool who blindly follows religion and is so easy to fool in name of religion. Adi or no Adi but all these so called religious leaders (from all religions including mullahs and paadris as well) were/are/will always be hired goons at best for gaining political ends. History teaches us that religion is the greatest tool to divide and rule.

“You know that monasteries were demolished and Hindu temples built during all this time of Buddhism downfall. This is a case of Ayodhya except that the Buddhists are not going demolish a temple, where there was originally a monastery.”

All I care for is law of land. What was there before 1947 is not and should not be a concern. After 1947 it was a mosque and was illegally demolished and so the criminals be brought to justice and land be given to muslims. BUT given the current scenario, of late my personal opinion has been that niether a masjid gives a muslim good life and nor a mandir gives a hindu a good life. When we have land then why not a hospital, school or may be even a electricity generation plant? What say?

“This will still benefit several kinds of minorities including the ones who are already benefitting”

But how the hell will it benefit our politicians???

“This reservation system is making the beneficiaries educated and richer but lazier not any smarter”

Who want to be smarter when one can be rich and lazy both at same time??? Your idea is excellent but as you said no one will bell the cat.

“Again, can you see the protectors of Hinduism such as Narender Modi or VHP etc will see the word Hindu dropped from Hindu Law before we have UCC”

Narender Modi — Yes. He will be ready to drop name Hindu willingly. No doubt in it. I can understand the image of Modi in eyes of muslims for being unpunished after doing henious crimes against muslims but he is not a fool and a very strategic politician.
VHP — Hired GOONS. GOONS, GOONS, GOONS. I hope you do not discuss these fools again. Lets be sensible. BTW I am amazed to see even such a mature guy like you believing that VHP represents hindus when even Hindus themselves condemn VHP claims of representing Hindus.

I agree Hindu name should be dropped from UCC. Lord Krishna tells Arjun (and mankind) that greatest religion is to serve nation and motherland. So if changing name of a good law is what makes India a better country then I support dropping the name happily. What in a name? :)

Posted by 777xxx777 | Report as abusive
 

@777

“BUT given the current scenario, of late my personal opinion has been that niether a masjid gives a muslim good life and nor a mandir gives a hindu a good life. When we have land then why not a hospital, school or may be even a electricity generation plant? What say?”
***For me it really does not matter, anything useful is fine. The question is justice and fall outs of the decision. Justice is hard to do given the nature of evidence. Main factor taken into view was fallout of the verdict. Current verdict seems like more of making both communities happy. Giving in favor of either one of them would have unleashed riots.–guaranteed. Hospital is nice but that would have been very revolutionary for court to do so. But i do get your point.

“Narender Modi — Yes. He will be ready to drop name Hindu willingly. No doubt in it. I can understand the image of Modi in eyes of muslims for being unpunished after doing henious crimes against muslims but he is not a fool and a very strategic politician.”
***Knowing Modi, it is quite possible. you are right about Modi’s reputation among Muslims, and in fact among non-Muslims too. Past is past. My problem with this man is that he will repeat Gujarat riots again. There is nothing he has said that I should think otherwise.

“VHP — Hired GOONS. GOONS, GOONS, GOONS. I hope you do not discuss these fools again. Lets be sensible. BTW I am amazed to see even such a mature guy like you believing that VHP represents hindus when even Hindus themselves condemn VHP claims of representing Hindus.”
***Yes they are goons without an iota of doubt. I am not stupid to think that they represent Hinduism. LeT does not represent Islam so does not A-Q. But you can see religion in politics is being influenced by them. we are not talking about religion per se here, it is UCC and the Hindu Law. So it is not about religion. It is about pure politics.

“I agree Hindu name should be dropped from UCC. Lord Krishna tells Arjun (and mankind) that greatest religion is to serve nation and motherland. So if changing name of a good law is what makes India a better country then I support dropping the name happily. What in a name?:-)”
*** Agreed! What in a name.

Posted by rehmat | Report as abusive
 

@rehmat
“But you can see religion in politics is being influenced by them. we are not talking about religion per se here, it is UCC and the Hindu Law. So it is not about religion. It is about pure politics.”
Yes I agree and that’s why I called them ‘hired’ goons, hired by political parties to meet their political ends. As I have stated above that religion is the greatest tool to divide and rule. To change this people have to change and stop blindly believing in religion and so called religious leaders. Until then people like VHP and SIMI will live and create troubles. Change has to come from rock bottom, from people like me and you.

I think by and large both of us are on same page regarding UCC. So lets just try our best to spread awareness among our fellow countrymen regarding UCC.

Posted by 777xxx777 | Report as abusive
 

@777

I agree!

Rehmat

Posted by rehmat | Report as abusive
 

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