Pakistan – a list too long

October 19, 2010

childPakistani journalist Mosharraf Zaidi had a good post up last week attempting to frame the many different challenges Pakistan faces in trying to deal with terrorism.  Definitely worth a read as a counter-balance to the vague “do more” mantra, and as a reminder of how little serious public debate there is out there about the exact nature of the threat posed to a nuclear-armed country of some 180 million people, whose collapse would destabilise the entire region and beyond.

Zaidi has divided the challenges into counter-insurgency, counter-terrorism and counter-extremism.

Counter-insurgency is focused on targeting militants holed up in the Federally Administered Tribal Areas (FATA) on the border with Afghanistan, with attention directed most recently on U.S. pressure to tackle militant hideouts in North Waziristan.  Pakistan has resisted U.S. pressure to move faster in launching military operations in North Waziristan, in part because it says it needs time to consolidate gains made elsewhere in FATA — itself possible only if adequate governance can be introduced into areas cleared by the army.

“Thus far, Pakistan has fought the insurgency in FATA and earlier, last year, in Swat, using two instruments: negotiation, and conventional military warfare, including ground troops and aerial strikes. This is not how you fight an insurgency. That is how you fight India. To use a hackneyed and tired metaphor in Islamabad, you can’t keep using a jack hammer to try and kill agile, determined and poisonous flies. The approach to the FATA insurgency is all wrong,” writes Zaidi.

Counter-terrorism covers action to prevent attacks across Pakistan including in its heartland Punjab province. ”Repeated and sustained terrorist attacks in Pakistan suggest that the terrorist enterprise in Pakistan enjoys freedom of movement, freedom of procurement, freedom of training, freedom of information and communication, and, quite disturbingly, freedom from the course of law,” he says.

“The third challenge is an obvious and unchallenged problem of religious extremism. The epicentre of religious extremism is the institution of the political articulation of faith in Pakistan. This means that physically there is no epicentre here. Religious extremism is a national problem, transcending demographics, class and ethnicity. Of the three problems, religious extremism is the one that has been around the longest, the one that has the deepest roots in Pakistani culture, the one that has enjoyed the patronage of the state, the one that has the demonstrated ability to undermine linear and rational public policy, and the one that will – because of all the aforesaid factors, take the longest to unpack and resolve.”

Zaidi’s framework is a strong one to use when trying to understand what is going on in Pakistan.

And it also inspired me to write a list of the many different influences buffeting Pakistan, many of which either fit into these three categories or intersect with them. I should have done this years ago, but here are those I can think of so far:

- The international environment (war in Afghanistan, hostility with India) which has underpinned allegations, denied by Pakistan, that its Inter-Services Intelligence (ISI) agency continues to support militant groups it sees as strategic assets

- A perceived desire on the part of the ISI to play one group off against the other in order to keep them under control

- The role of poverty and/or unemployment in encouraging people to support militants (are the dynamics the same in FATA and Punjab?)

- The role of civilian casualties in FATA, particularly from U.S. drone bombings, in radicalising Pakistanis at home and in the diaspora

- A lack of empowerment whereby many people feel they have been unable to change their situation in any other way than through terrorism, because real democracy has been stifled by either military dictatorships or civilian rule dominated by the feudal elite

-  The role of the media and national discourse which tends to favour populist street rage and domestic political intrigue 

- Modern interpretations of Islam – heavily influenced by a shift in the balance of power towards Arab monarchies and dictatorships after the 1973 oil crisis, and by the 1979 Islamic Revolution in Iran (both of which suppressed an tradition of “ijtehad” - very loosely translated as a spirit of inquiry)

- Radicalisation of some Muslims overseas, including in the Pakistani diaspora, and especially after 9/11, who contribute to a positive feedback loop between the militancy of those inside and outside Pakistan

- The history of Pakistan and the painful partition from British India which set it up as a new country without a clear identity or strong geography, a “moth-eaten” state divided between West and East Pakistan, deprived, as its early founders saw it, of the contiguous Muslim state of Kashmir

- The scars of the 1971 war with India which led to the creation of Bangladesh, deprived Pakistan of its identity as a homeland for South Asian Muslims, and has left its military in particular deeply anxious about the perceived threat from its much bigger neighbour

- The rise of hardline Islam as a reaction to colonial rule in British India.  (The original Deobandi madrasa was set up in response to the collapse of  Mughal rule after the 1857 Mutiny; Maududi, the founder of the Jamaat-e-Islami, was equally very much a product of British India)

-Ethnic diversity in Pakistan – the military operations in FATA have challenged a traditional Pashtun identity; Baluch separatists complain about Punjabi dominance; Sindhis (the wellspring of support for the ruling Pakistan People’s Party) struggle to assert themselves on the national stage

OK. That’s enough for now (and I am sure there is more to add/refine -I haven’t even mentioned organised crime and drug trafficking). What I have realised in trying to write this list is how little serious research I have seen which gives a properly disciplined weighting to all the different issues confronting Pakistan, and how much people (myself included) look for simple answers by focusing on only one or two of them. If anyone can point to research which does so, please post the links.

And here is a thought to end with. Al Qaeda, or its affiliates, have been remarkably intelligent about analysing and exploiting the weaknesses of history, society and geography.  We have seen a certain method in the madness in the way bombings in Pakistan have challenged every minority or majority religious tradition which does not comply with the religious teachings of al Qaeda or its supporters.  It is also quite cleverly set up to damage Pakistan further by launching attacks overseas, either in the United States or India, which in turn could bring such retribution on Pakistan as to destabilise it completely.

Being scared of al Qaeda is silly in most countries where statistically you have more reason to worry about being killed in a road accident. Being scared of al Qaeda in Pakistan is also an insult to a country which is far more resilient than it is given credit for. But being stupid about the risks to Pakistan by thinking that all we need is one over-arching solution is well … just stupid.

   

 

  

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Comments

@Myra
Great article. Quite clearly pinpointed the dilemma that Pakistan is facing today. But don’t you think there are by and large 2 major problems that needs urgent attention. Strengthening of democracy and uplifting economy of Pakistan. Looking at India after independence all I can say is that religious extremism is an issue only when economy is poor and youth has no jobs and no work. If people are shown a hope of improvement in quality of lives through sustained efforts of rulers then religious bigotry automatically gets done away with. So poverty is the root cause and religious extremism is just an effect of it. People turn to religion only when all other doors are closed. For if PA and ISI stop using religion as a bogey against India the so called religious extremism will go up in flames just like that. Pakistanis need to stop spending on India so much and start spending on their own self. I personally do not see ordinary Pakistan muslims as fan*tic hardliners or anything like that. Pakistan as a muslim state is far better in implementing women empowering laws and population control measures than those done by Indian muslim leaders for muslim community in India. Indian muslim leaders have been far more hardliner than any common Pakistani muslim. So problem is not with people of Pakistan; problem is with governance of Pakistan.

Posted by 777xxx777 | Report as abusive
 

@Myra
Why post mr Zaidi’s article on this blog? Have we not seen all his proposals being deployed by the colonialists in India? The guy is a fake, word by word the old british policy in India, which did not work. Can one use military, para military and police on the people from where they are recruited?
Most radical muslim institutions migrated from India after partition and are now too powerrful to be controlled by the very weak Govt. The destabilisation of the society and the intercommunal riots can only be controlled, once the foreign armies are withdrawn from the region and the military activities of the two rivals namely India and Pakistan come to an end.
Rex Minor

Posted by pakistan | Report as abusive
 

Pakistan has been messed up from within and without. Its paranoia and hatred towards India is the main reason for the mistakes committed by its leaders in the past. India has to do nothing. Just its presence in the vicinity has affected Pakistani psyche a lot. They are unable to accept the reality that there is no such thing as Pakistani superiority. Ego and contempt have added more fuel to the fire. This has led to distortion of history, false claims and desperate attempts to keep the anti-Indian paranoia alive at all costs.

There is no need to Pakistan to match India in all aspects. But Pakistan’s leaders have focused only on the military aspect in this regard. They willingly put their country in the war path of cold war super powers, in order to gain favors against India. It was a calculated risk that backfired on them. They did not realize that the super powers only looked for their own gains and did not care if Pakistan was ground in the bargain.

The core problem with Pakistan and Pakistanis is their India obsession.

Posted by KPSingh01 | Report as abusive
 

Pakistan has been messed up from within and without. Its paranoia and hatred towards India is the main reason for the mistakes committed by its leaders in the past. India has to do nothing. Just its presence in the vicinity has affected Pakistani psyche a lot. They are unable to accept the reality that there is no such thing as Pakistani superiority. Ego and contempt have added more fuel to the fire. This has led to distortion of history, false claims and desperate attempts to keep the anti-Indian paranoia alive at all costs.

There is no need to Pakistan to match India in all aspects. But Pakistan’s leaders have focused only on the military aspect in this regard. They willingly put their country in the war path of cold war super powers, in order to gain favors against India. It was a calculated risk that backfired on them. They did not realize that the super powers only looked for their own gains and did not care if Pakistan was ground in the bargain.

The core problem with Pakistan and Pakistanis is their India obsession.

Posted by KPSingh01 | Report as abusive
 

@KPSingh01
Well said, and now you should when India is going to stop the suppressions of the kashmiris whose second half is sitting right in the territory of Pakistan?
Rex Minor

Posted by pakistan | Report as abusive
 

@Rex Minor
Pakistanis should stop dreaming about kashmir. In its short history they were beaten black and blue in 1965, ’71 and lately in Kargil.

They are presently being humiliated by the consistent drone attacks by US.

India parted with a small portion at the time of partition – called Pakistan. If even that portion cannot be taken care of how will they handle Kashmir.

First the Pakistanis should stop killing the Shias, the Ahmadis, the sufis, the hindus the Christians and then talk about Kashmir.

Posted by rrdas | Report as abusive
 

@ndas
I could’nt care less about the dreams of Pakistan for Kashmir. But I do care bout the Kashmiris whose home has been split and are currently suffering at the hands of the Indian military! Despite the economic growth of India most Indians go hungry at night, the divide between the rich and the poor is also widening. You do not think that India is risking its future progress if the unrest among the Kashmiris continues? Are we also heading for a marshal law in some parts of India? What about the slogan of Indian democracy?

Rex Minor

Posted by pakistan | Report as abusive
 

rrdas:
“Pakistanis should stop dreaming about kashmir.”

-Indians must also stop dreaming that Kashmir dispute will die with the passage of time. Kashmir is now a nuclear flashpoint, it is a ticking time bomb and can spark a nuclear war between India and Pakistan at any time. As the war ends in Afghanistan, and situation worsens in Kashmir, at some point in future definitely Kashmir dispute will resurface.

The root cause of all of Pakistan’s problems is India, Pakistan Army’s India obsession is justified. Indians are wonderful people (I am on holiday in UAE and met many Indians here) but the Indian leaders never accepted Pakistan’s existence right from the start. India’s Congress party is to blame for it, selfish political interests caused events that shape the history and future.

However, Pakistan has to deal with the reality, having to live with an hostile neighbour in east, volatile neighbour in the west. Iran with sizeable shia population, China. The geostrategic challenges, and environment and disadvantages make the challenges for Pakistan formidable. Many of these challenges have become severe due to inaction, extraordinary efforts and resources would be required for Pakistan to turnaround the situation.

Posted by Umairpk | Report as abusive
 

@Rex Minor

First you stop killing your own people by the thousands in your country, then talk about other countries. Besides who ever told you that other countries, including India do not have their own share of problems. But you would do better to look at and solve your own problems rather than find India’s.

To know what Indian Muslims think of India please view this clip.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mO5oFsa5w DE&NR=1

Posted by rrdas | Report as abusive
 

KPSingh:
“Pakistan’s leaders have focused only on the military aspect in this regard. They willingly put their country in the war path of cold war super powers, in order to gain favors against India.”

-While it may be true that Pakistan built its clandestine nuclear capability, and advanced its conventional capability as well. However, there was no choice but to confront the Soviet Union in Afghanistan with US help. The disadvantages Pakistan suffers had compelling enough to enter into an alliance with one super power and confront another.
Had India not been hostile, Pakistan had no need to enter into alliance with the US.

Since Pakistan was once a part of (British) India, many of its problems are due to the past. Unfortunately that cannot be changed, and it will require a lot of effort to put the country back on track.

Posted by Umairpk | Report as abusive
 

Umairpk: “The root cause of all of Pakistan’s problems is India, Pakistan Army’s India obsession is justified.”

This summarizes everything about Pakistan. I saw someone comment in the Guardian blogs. I am paraphrasing the words here:

“Any nation founded on an ideology and violent methods to achieve that end will never survive. If one looks at the Aryan nations in the West, Afrikaners in South Africa, Tamils in Sri Lanka, RSS/BJP in India, Dravidians in South India, Nazis etc one will find a common methodology – Usually one or two warped leaders (intelligent and well educated) start these movements. Usually a group of people are identified as being victims of some kind of oppression. The history is distorted to justify the victimhood. Most resort to violence to cause isolation of their groups. As violence is instigated, retaliation comes in due course. Retaliation is violent as well and the leaders help themselves through more violent acts. This slowly builds a feeling of isolation and insecurity. At some point, the group falls in line and begins to act in the interests of the selfish leaders. If they manage to create a nation based on violence, isolation and prejudice, then they need all three to keep the group united at all times from there on. And these leaders now let their new nations feel insecure, leading to military confrontations, international politics and more friction. In the long run they run their show using fear of the larger group from which they separated. They arm themselves to the teeth fearing attacks from the bigger groups. Their citizens are driven towards building bunkers all the time. Finally the new nation has nothing but an army of charged citizens, completely warped and close minded, full of prejudice and hatred. Any small trigger is good enough to explode in a big fashion. Any excuse is used to escalate conflict.

In the case of Pakistan Jinnah did the above and has put the lives of millions of people under risk. LTTE did the same, only got decimated in the bargain. Stone throwing Kashmir is driven by the same goal. Ideologies whether they are atheistic or religion or race or ethnicity based will always lead to a nation that resembles Pakistan. This is a great lesson in history – do not allow prejudiced individuals to manipulate others and taken them hostage for their power craze.

Posted by KPSingh01 | Report as abusive
 

@umairpk
Only a weak nation blames others for its woes. And Pakistan does that regularly, thereby showing its extreme weekness. It keeps borrowing money from all and sundry (including India) and then blame them for their woes. How often have you heard countries like Japan, Vietnam, Germany, cambodia who have suffered untold damage either from wars or their own despot rulers complaint and cry over their misfortunes. In fact given the first opportunity they have risen to unimaginable heights.

Pakistan is suffering due to its own inhuman acts. Atleast spare the mosques, where the faithful go to worship the Lord – not many temples and churches remain anyway. In the last year itself how many attacks have taken place on fellow muslims while they were praying faithfully to their lord – the Ahmadis, the sufis and the shias ?

Posted by rrdas | Report as abusive
 

Myra:

I have compiled a list of responses for all problems listed above as follows (my responses are radical and extreme):

1- The international environment (war in Afghanistan, hostility with India) which has underpinned allegations, denied by Pakistan, that its Inter-Services Intelligence (ISI) agency continues to support militant groups it sees as strategic assets.

-Pakistan must vigorously pursue its interests and clearly define Afghanistan as its sphere of regional interest. We are no more US partners against communism, the era of cold war is gone, with independence and soverignty comes the responsibility to define and safeguard national interest. However, ISI must curb the use of militant proxies and confront the enemies of Pakistan openly.

2- A perceived desire on the part of the ISI to play one group off against the other in order to keep them under control.

-ISI is in a transition to regain control of elements which were created during Soviet-Afghan war. That process should continue at all cost, this is the phase of playing one group against the other, eventually a choice should be given to those who do not mend their ways. Surrender or die.

3- The role of poverty and/or unemployment in encouraging people to support militants (are the dynamics the same in FATA and Punjab?)

-Yes, the dynamics are pretty similar, fight poverty and create jobs. Put everyone to work, empty mind is a devil’s workshop. Militants exploit those who have greviences against the state. The state should start welfare programs of poverty alleviation and job creation and stop all military operations. As the militants are deprived of local support, they will be defeated.

4- The role of civilian casualties in FATA, particularly from U.S. drone bombings, in radicalising Pakistanis at home and in the diaspora.

-Order Pakistan Air Force to shoot down itruding drones and aircrafts on Pakistani soil. Give a chance to local people to help track down militants and take them down. If drones kill 1 militant, this new approach will help apprehending hundereds of militants.

5- A lack of empowerment whereby many people feel they have been unable to change their situation in any other way than through terrorism, because real democracy has been stifled by either military dictatorships or civilian rule dominated by the feudal elite.

-Feudalism must be abolished, common person must be able to stand up for their rights. Current chief justice of supreme court is a hope, a person who knows how to kick as*. Couple of ministers humiliated in public will give a sense of empowerment to public. They will know no one is above the law.

6- The role of the media and national discourse which tends to favour populist street rage and domestic political intrigue.

-Lately, Pakistan’s urdu electronic media has been behaving very irresponsibly. There should be media regulation and quality assurance. Often, media engages in speculation. Sometimes their work is positive in exposing corruption. The media should focus in building public confidence rather than senseless reporting.

7- Modern interpretations of Islam – heavily influenced by a shift in the balance of power towards Arab monarchies and dictatorships after the 1973 oil crisis, and by the 1979 Islamic Revolution in Iran (both of which suppressed an tradition of “ijtehad” – very loosely translated as a spirit of inquiry)

-This one is tough, there is no one way to tackle this but a strong body of Ulema (Islamic scholars) should be put in place with authority. They should define everything and government should implement it. These Ulema must come from every sect.

8- Radicalisation of some Muslims overseas, including in the Pakistani diaspora, and especially after 9/11, who contribute to a positive feedback loop between the militancy of those inside and outside Pakistan.

-Prevent radicalisation through rehabilitation programs, this would require expertise and resources but is possible. Keep track of overseas Pakistanis and create a database. At home eliminate all causes that create radicalisation.

9- The history of Pakistan and the painful partition from British India which set it up as a new country without a clear identity or strong geography, a “moth-eaten” state divided between West and East Pakistan, deprived, as its early founders saw it, of the contiguous Muslim state of Kashmir.

-This reality cannot be changed, but from an early age I was taught that nothing is impossible. Today, every Pakistani needs the same attitude. It should start in schools at an early age. On Kashmir, Pakistan’s stand must be clear, we want a just solution to the dispute.

10- The scars of the 1971 war with India which led to the creation of Bangladesh, deprived Pakistan of its identity as a homeland for South Asian Muslims, and has left its military in particular deeply anxious about the perceived threat from its much bigger neighbour.

-Pakistan must make it clear to India that after 1971 we have nothing to loose. Any mischief in Baluchistan will be an act of war, and Pakistan would fight the war with all conventional and nuclear weapons.

11- The rise of hardline Islam as a reaction to colonial rule in British India. (The original Deobandi madrasa was set up in response to the collapse of Mughal rule after the 1857 Mutiny; Maududi, the founder of the Jamaat-e-Islami, was equally very much a product of British India)

-Since colonialism ended more than half century, the government should work with an Ulema authority to unite everyone under the banner of true Islam which preaches peace.

12-Ethnic diversity in Pakistan – the military operations in FATA have challenged a traditional Pashtun identity; Baluch separatists complain about Punjabi dominance; Sindhis (the wellspring of support for the ruling Pakistan People’s Party) struggle to assert themselves on the national stage.

-Start programs for previously disadvantaged citizens, for example give special quotas to students from Baluchistan. Give preferential treatment to people from Sindh, if its a government jon give them opporunities etc ending their sense of deprivation. Where Punjabis are a source of fiction or disunity, create conditions which discourage exploitation. Stop military operations in sensitive areas and declare them special zones with additional rights for the citizens.

All above are radical solutions which require great leadership. Something missing in Both Gilani and Zardari.

Posted by Umairpk | Report as abusive
 

Umairpk,

Very good points. Hopefully a good, benevolent leader emerges in Pakistan soon to guide your nation out of its current situation. Pakistan has been lucky before. Hope it is lucky again to get a good leader. This will bring peace to the whole region.

India might have been hostile in the past. But I can assure you that India has moved on. It has tasted the goodies of economic progress. Muscle power alone is not enough in this world to have a say. Economic power is more important. In addition to that, improved secularism, power for the common citizen, overall progress in all aspects are being attempted. India’s defense needs are only based on defense and not offense anymore. Definitely Kashmir issue needs to be put to bed soon. But that becomes an election issue for any ruling party. Indian public are beginning to realize that the way forward is to be easy going, work hard and join the global village. Pakistan can lower its guard for sure. India does not see any gains in dividing up Pakistan or get involved in its internal matters. It is taking a watchful stance because Pakistan still has rogue elements and radicals that can stage another Mumbai style attack. Other than that, India is busy addressing its own issues. Pakistan should capitalize on that and start building the infrastructure.

Posted by KPSingh01 | Report as abusive
 

@”ISI must curb the use of militant proxies and confront the enemies of Pakistan openly”

Can you clearify on what you mean by that?

Posted by Mortal1 | Report as abusive
 

Umairpk,

Very interesting points.

But you said create Ulema but then what about non-muslims? What about Jinnah’s dream of a Pakistan where state has got nothing to do with one’s religion? You still do not want secularism when your founding father actually founded Pakistan to achieve better secularism than India?

As for media, what do you mean by ‘irresponsible’ or rather what is irresponsible in your opinion? Recently I saw some Pakistani politician (he was not a MP though) speaking on PTV saying that Pakistan will attack and kill India and rule whole of India because majority Indians are not muslims and only way to make peace with India is to kill all India and make it all Pakistan….is showing this kind of sick hatred filled anti-India messages on national television (which is in turn heavily controlled by central govt of Pakistan) any kind of responsible media?

Your idea of giving preferential treatment to certain people may look good to you but as an Indian I can tell you we did this experiment in India in form of reservations and in the end what we have is total chaos. Only persons to benefit from reservations are the relatives of MPs and MLAs ONLY and actual poor guy still has nothing to cheer for. And those who deserved things on merit are also equally deprived of opportunities. And my generation has seen the ill effects of this reservation monster up and close. So I would advise that don’t ever think of preferential treatments. Treat all as equal and pressure should be on government to provide for social welfare. Like Government should not force reservation in higher education institutions and at same time tax the rich and give quality education to the poor free of cost. Think about it more deeply.
One thing that Pakistan can do is give more financial freedom to states. In India all states have complete financial freedom on taxes and their spendings on social schemes. Taxes on Sales like VAT took almost 10 years to get implemented and GST has been lagging for last 5 years because some or the other state vetoes it. So if states can be given such financial independence then political issues will go up in flames. In India for last 20 years or so financial issues have taken a front seat and political issues have just revolved around financial ones.

And just what is a ‘just’ solution of Kashmir? Should India give Kashmir to Pakistan on a platter? Can a landlocked Kashmir do any progress on its own without depending heavily on India/Pakistan/China and in long run without being puppets of its neighbours? Is it not more respectable for Kashmiris to be part of two great nations and live proudly instead of a false independence? And for examples look at Europe, in name of so called peace the evil European Axis (Germany, France and Italy) went on supporting to create small small countries that could not survive on their own in the global scenario without depending heavily on these evil axis and hence their governments are just puppets in hand of these devils (Latest example: Kosovo). What is Euro currency if not financial strangulation? Today Greece is forced for austerity and so it is wanting out of Euro? Euro was created in first place to kill price competition in Europe that was major headache for Germany, France and Italy. Today they enforce 3% deficit onto others whereas they have been the ones to regularly flout it but no austerity was enforced onto them. But when Greece fails its puppet government is immediately forced for austerity (which in turn will lead to massive human suffering in Greece) whereas better methods existed for way out of this mess. And now even the evils are themselves feeling the heat of this Euro…France puts in austerity as well. Do you really want such an independence for Kashmir?

As for warning India or insecurity from India or anything you can think what you like. But let me tell you if Indian intelligence was really so intelligent as propagated by your leaders then Indian Military would have been advised on Kashmir plans of a fool general of Pakistan. Pakistan Army was well inside LOC on Indian soil in Kargil when Indian forces got to know of it. I am surprised when Pakistanis think of RAW and IB as professional organisations. They are fools at best. But it has become habit of your politicians to blame India/US for everything wrong they do to keep common public like you as blinded so that you people could not see the reality. So it is for you people to understand that Indians are not out to annihilate you. Come out of this false victimhood mentality and shed away your India fear. And leaders in India will have to do as per people’s wish by and large. Recent bill of making farmers as stake holders in industrial projects for which they give their land is going to be landmark when finally becomes law. So India already has a lot of problems and 1.5 billion people to feed. Then why would we foolishly engage in wars especially when we have example of Pakistan being torn apart in wars, in front of us. Again think deeply.

Posted by 777xxx777 | Report as abusive
 

A Pakistani attack on India will solve all issues:
1. Opportunity to avenge 1971 humiliation
2. Refocus all jihadis on the “right” enemy.
3. An excuse to not fight the Afghan Taliban
4. Unemployment/population issues.
5. Unite the population.
6. Legitimize military rule.
7. Opportunity to capture Kashmir.

Pakistan should really impose a war on India, considering the injustices that the ordinary Pakistani considers to be have been committed by the terrorist state of India. As usual, India will not be able to respond, due to international pressure. It really is a win-win for Pakistan.

Posted by trickey | Report as abusive
 

What I don’t understand is why the leaders of Pakistan still aren’t focusing on their economy? Take India and China. Both countries were founded on ideologies, Maoist Communism and Nehruvian Socialism, that were harmful to their economies. Both countries refuted these ideologies; China in 79 and India in 91. Since then both countries have focused almost exclusively on economic growth over other priorities. Pakistan, it seems, prioritises it’s foreign policy over it’s domestic policy. If the politicians could focus on doing whatever is necessary for its economy, then I think it could pull itself out of the hole it’s in. Bangladesh has done exactly that as Shahzad Chaudhry points out in this article.

http://tribune.com.pk/story/64803/can-we -change-our-hate-india-mindset/

Chinese, Indian and Bangladeshi politicians came to their senses. When will Pakistan’s politicians do the same?

Posted by Mekeritrig | Report as abusive
 

@trickey
“Pakistan should really impose a war on India, considering the injustices that the ordinary Pakistani considers to be have been committed by the terrorist state of India. As usual, India will not be able to respond, due to international pressure. It really is a win-win for Pakistan.”

Ha ha ha ha ha
Your sense of humour is really good!!

Posted by 777xxx777 | Report as abusive
 

@trickey

“Pakistan should really impose a war on India”

But they have already tried that in 1999 in Kargil. It was a lose-lose for them.

Posted by rrdas | Report as abusive
 

rrdas,
“But they have already tried that in 1999 in Kargil. It was a lose-lose for them.”

Well, any risky venture can fail. That doesn’t mean it’s not worth doing. We are only in the 63rd year of the 1000 year war promised by ZA Bhutto(and reiterated by Mr. Zardari) after all.

Posted by trickey | Report as abusive
 

trickey: “Pakistan should really impose a war on India, considering the injustices that the ordinary Pakistani considers to be have been committed by the terrorist state of India”

There is no need to declare any war. Pakistan has been at war with India ever since its existence as a new Muslim nation. This is not a war that has been fought at the battle fields only. It has spread into the hearts of most Pakistanis. And it has spread across various fields that include media. That war is what one sees even in this forum. India has had to deal with this war even before it got its independence. But it has not focused entirely on this war. It has also worked towards progress at the same time. As a result, India has managed to survive as a nation, while Pakistan is at the brink. May be Pakistanis can hold a ceasefire first in their hearts and then spread it to other areas as well. Only when that war ends, will Pakistan have any hopes of surviving as a nation.

Posted by KPSingh01 | Report as abusive
 

Umair:

Good points. It is not the first time some one has said all that you proposed. But theory and practice are different ball games. How much do you think you have contributed and ready to contribute towards your suggestions? Govt makes laws but if you want people’s govt (democracy) you need to recalibrate your views which you normally have (not this one time list).

Pakistani problem has been that they do not have an identity. It sounds harsh but a fact. Pakistanis are divided over that. See how divided Pakistan is even on such a basic thing as the kind of govt needed. India is not confused on the identity. The constitution fixed that issue and except for minor disagreements there is no issue about that paper. Certain events have challenged that historically but not consensus remains. The problem in India is enforcing “rule of law” at all times.

India and Pakistan have common history. There are some simple hard facts that Indians and Pakistanis need to know so that history is presented correctly.

You asked me about my view on Pakistan as an idea. You will not be happy to know my view. Without getting into why of it, let me say that the idea has not been successful. There is no harm in accepting this or I would like to know your views. This does not mean Pakistan does not deserve to be a sovereign state.

“9- The history of Pakistan and the painful partition from British India which set it up as a new country without a clear identity or strong geography, a “moth-eaten” state divided between West and East Pakistan, deprived, as its early founders saw it, of the contiguous Muslim state of Kashmir.
-This reality cannot be changed, but from an early age I was taught that nothing is impossible. Today, every Pakistani needs the same attitude. It should start in schools at an early age. On Kashmir, Pakistan’s stand must be clear, we want a just solution to the dispute.”

***What would you like to be taught at an early age? This is important and the root cause of all what we are witnessing in Pakistan. This is also critical in shaping personal views on any issue.

Posted by rehmat | Report as abusive
 

KPSingh01: “India has had to deal with this war even before it got its independence. But it has not focused entirely on this war. It has also worked towards progress at the same time. As a result, India has managed to survive as a nation, while Pakistan is at the brink.”

Well said.

Posted by Mekeritrig | Report as abusive
 

@Trickey, 777, Umair, Singh, others

I recently watched a clip on Kashmir on youtube, it is called “Crossing the line India, Pakistan and Kashmir”.

It made some interesting points. The most important point was that Kashmiri’s could have had a legitimate gripe about autonomy or self-determination if the following 2 things had NOT been perpetrated by Pakistan:

1) Pak supported Militant attack on Red Fort
2) Pak Militantization of Kashmiri youth against India

This is actually from the mouth of a muslim political analyst who griped that Pakistan has actually hijacked the Kashmir cause into their own and dirtied it and therefore delegitimized it, in the world public arena and tainted Kashmir with terrorism.

He is actually right. If Pakistan had not interfered, and kashmiri’s were left alone, India could have brokered a peaceful legislation in Kashmir, that would have given them the Autonomy that they required, along with the peace that India wanted in Kashmir and both could have peacefully co-existed and within time, Kashmiri’s could have had their own country.

I think Kashmiri’s should have their own country, independent of both New Delhi and Islamabad, but this will not happen, so long as Pak Army stooges foment militantism, as extremism will continue to undermine the legitimacy of Kashmiri cause and prompt continual further crackdown by indian army and Kashmiri’s will continue to suffer.

It is not inplausible that if Islamabad ceased its interference in Indian Kashmir, India will remove its large army footprint, with the removal of militant incursions and militancy, India can focus its energy on improving the relations with Kashmiri’s and their lives, but Pakistan has always done what it does best, create trouble and use the blanket of Islamo-expansionism to steal Kashmiri freedom, at the end of the day, in the geopolitical hope of swallowing all of Kashmiri territory and erasing Kashmiri culture.

India is still guilty of mishandling their dealings with kashmiri’s, but the world and Pakistani’s should be under no illusions, they are the fomenters of trouble there and no solution will come, until they cease to undermine Kashmiri nation for their own cause to bleed India.

Kashmiri’s have to educate their youth and tell them that they can have freedom, if they are their own men, their own people and not stooges of outside state agencies that use them as cannon fodder against the Indian army.

I sincerely hope that Kashmiri’s get their freedom, but Kashmiri’s must drop the pro-Islamic political flag, as there are many minorities in Kashmir and they cannot and must not become second class citizens, as this will give rise to a new genocide.

India must not let another genocide to happen in Kashmir, unless a comprehensive solution is put forth. If Kashmiri’s want to join with Pakistan, so be it, then one quick solution to this is to have a the purely muslim neighbourhoods to go join with Pakistan and non-muslim ones to go with India. Understandably, this leaves some muslim neighbour hoods in the valley landlocked, there fore, there must be some give and take on this part and there must be some repatriation required by muslims and non-muslims, under third party watch, thereby redrawing the border.

If that is not the case and Kashmiri’s do in fact want their own intact whole country, then Kashmiri’s must demand at the UN level, that Pakistan comply with 1948 Resolutions AND India completely withdraw, again, all under UN watch. And the new country of Kashmir must sign off a charter disavowing all allegiance to Pakistan and Pakistani militants in all shape and form. The chain of assymetrical warfare against India must stop, if it does not, kashmiri will never be free.

One thing that Kashmiri’s have to realize is that anger, violence and brick throwing will only bring more Indian Army crackdowns. True legitimate freedom takes honest hard work, patience, perseverence, education and involvement in the political process. Antagonizing, violent agitation of India and playing footsie with Pakistan has not worked to bring autonomy, but only many deaths to Kashmiri youth, therefore the path of violence taken by Kashmiri’s is not working and will not work.

It is time for Kashmiri’s to redefine themself outside of the context of being only muslim and being Pakistani stooges at that, and take charge of their own cause and embrace more peaceful methods that will bring success.

Kashmiri’s must reject the militants and reject being stooges of outside countries. If Kashmiri’s joined Pakistan just like that today, they might as well as sign off the death warrant of their culture, because their history, will be erased and re-written and in time, their culture will be gone. India will preserve Kashmiri uniqueness and bring much progress, if Kashmiri’s wakeup and choose to move forward.

Posted by G-W | Report as abusive
 

If there are any Kashmiri’s here, please tell us if you want complete freedom from both Pakistan AND India.

Posted by G-W | Report as abusive
 

@G-W
“I sincerely hope that Kashmiri’s get their freedom, but Kashmiri’s must drop the pro-Islamic political flag, as there are many minorities in Kashmir and they cannot and must not become second class citizens, as this will give rise to a new genocide.”

Nice views, but let me remove some of your misconceptions.

1.Muslim countries normally never give rights to its minorities. How many muslim countries do you know of which gives equal rights to its minorities. Dont mention one or two exceptions from 54 muslim countries.

2. Even when under India half a million hindus have been driven out of Kashmir. What to talk of when they get their own rule.

3. Pakistan will never tire to trouble india further now emboldened with getting India out of Kashmir.

Any kind of civil society thriving in Kashmir with Pakistan breathing down its neck is hoping for the impossible.

Besides if muslims can live all over india then why not in Kashmir?

Posted by rrdas | Report as abusive
 

@rrdas,

You can never go wrong taking the high road. As long as you take the high road, the universe will alway side with you, in the long run.

In the christian bible, they often say…”the meek shal inherit the earth”….and so forth in many religions it is much the same.

The politics of religion is a creed that is holding back interfaith progress.

Posted by G-W | Report as abusive
 

Kashmir is a geo-political issue. Unfortunately the Kashmiri natives are bearing the brunt of it. Becoming fully independent is not going to solve the geo-politics in the region.

I would like self determination vote taken in the entire Kashmir. However, the current conditions do not favor full independence to all of Kashmir. Pakistan has carefully infiltrated Azad Kashmir with Punjabis and Pashtuns over a generation.

Pakistan separated in the name of religion. Look at what it has led to. Kashmir also is trying to separate in the name of religion. It will create another mini-Pakistan, which will blackmail India by threatening to go with China and Pakistan or play the three countries against each other to gain favors.

And Pakistan suffers from severe macho problem. They are claiming victory and are chest thumping about the American “defeat” in Afghanistan to the “mighty” Taliban. All the US is trying to do is to weaken them so that they will have no choice but to come to the negotiating table. But the mindset in Pakistan misconstrues it as a sign of weakness. Shift the context to India now. If India withdraws from Kashmir, it will be considered as a sign of Pakistan’s might and India’s weakness by a significant percentage of its population, most of whom live off rumors and boastful theories pulled out of the air.

Pakistan has built itself as a nation of mercenaries. War is the only thing that seems to come natural to them. They want to resolve everything by means of conflicts. Peaceful efforts are looked at as useless and as signs of weakness. When that attitude has not disappeared, the militants and radicals inside Pakistani population and military establishment will need more fodder to chew if Kashmir is resolved. For India the question is whether resolving Kashmir helps minimize an existing headache or make it worse.

India can only think from India’s needs, just like Kashmiris or Pakistanis look at things only from their gainful standpoint. Some compromise needs to be worked out between all parties. Simla accord was a good agreement between India and Pakistan, only to be ignored entirely by Pakistani military once they got the overwhelming US support during their proxy war against the USSR.

Where is the trust and the guarantee that Pakistan will not renege on any agreements? They have nothing worthwhile going on in their country. The only thing available to them is engaging in continued conflicts. They have built their entire system in that direction. Suddenly by resolving Kashmir they are not going to give up all that infrastructure. Even if they honestly try to do so, they will not be able to control any of the groups that have taken off on their own. So they will create another mission and will keep on going.

For Pakistan, the situation has become worse. In order for them to survive as a nation, they have to keep the internal threats pointed outwards at all the time. Obama’s war has blocked that outward focus and as a result they are burning from within. That is why they want the Americans out as soon as possible so that they can regroup all the divided radicals against a common enemy – India. They cannot get out of this situation anymore. The longer the US stays, the worse it is going to become for them and their survival.

There seems to be one resolution to the Kashmir conflict – the dissolution of the entire Af-Pak region into smaller nations. I have resisted this thought a lot. But Pakistan in its current shape will never allow India or other neighbors to exist in peace, Kashmir or not. Khalistan is still there in the queue. By creating more conflicts, Pakistan is trying to gain livelihood out of it. Indians should keep that in mind.

Posted by KPSingh01 | Report as abusive
 

KPSingh
“It will create another mini-Pakistan, which will blackmail India by threatening to go with China and Pakistan or play the three countries against each other to gain favors.”
***Good point and VERY possible considering China buying countries loyality by 1 billion$ which mainly have been sea ports–Pakistan, Sri Lanka for example. China will add Kashmir to its bucket along with Pakistan. Paper Visas by China for Kashmiris are early pointers.

India is stuck between a rock and a hard place. Sticking to Kashmir is hurting India in terms of reputation and money. Kashmir has not attracted world’s attention that much so far, but at this rate it is a matter of time when that happens. That place is a real issue and for all practical reasons it cannot remain just like anyother state of India. Letting Kashmir go will place India at a geopolitical disadvantage. Maintaining status quo is costly for India. Autonomy to J&K is good for all including Kashmiris but having it demands statesmanship and peaceful atmosphere of zero violence for sometime. All said and done, it is India that has to find a way to make sure innocents do not die. It is to Pakistan’s own benifit to help achieve the short term and long term solution for Kashmir.

Posted by rehmat | Report as abusive
 

@GW
Your straight forward solution, if kashmiris do in fact want their own intact whole country, then…………,could resolve several issues as well as could create a positive dynamic for peace in the region.
Both India and Pakistan could jointly work on this project, if this is the wish of the majority of the kashmiris. The military on both borders could go into the barracks and the political leaders could start working on the peace treaty between India and Pakistan.
Let the Kashmiris have an independent country!
Rex Minor

Posted by pakistan | Report as abusive
 

Guys,

People here talk a lot of Kashmiri’s will. Let me just deviate from topic and tell u what happens in Britain for law of shareholders. In England law is that when shareholders decide in AGM of a company that the company management change hands then no one on earth can stop it. Now what has happened over last decade is that England has been continuously loosing business to everyone around the world in name of so called will of shareholders. Foreign companies come to England, offer a little premium price to shareholders and in return get their votes to sell companies to foreigners and law just could not stop it. In long run foreigners who acquire English companies shut them down and sell their own good to English. So effectively in the name of so called ‘will’ of shareholders, there has been increasing unemployment in England which affects those very shareholders (common man) on streets. But obviously shareholders (the common man) fail to see this long term effects of such uninformed and short sighted will of his/her.

Now back to Kashmir. For once all kashmiris should use their heads and not hearts and ponder over these points:

1. Kashmir becomes part of Pakistan.
Consequences: All kashmiriyat goes up in flames. Pakistan destroys all culture and imposes its own agenda on Kashmiris. No economy of Pakistan and Kashmiris are made to starve and die. Look at so called Azad Kashmir, is it really azad (independent) or a mere puppet in hands of Pakistan.

2. India gives independence to its Kashmir.
Consequences: Will Pakistan replicate? A highly unlikely possibility. Will Pakistan try to annex or at least influence and install a puppet government in Kashmir? A highly likely possibility. Will China annex the Kashmir? A very very highly likely possibility. And in this case Kashmir will be treated same as Tibet. Today more hun chinese are inhibited in Tibet than tibetians themselves, do kashmiris want same fate for themselves?

3. Pakistan also gives Kashmir its independence.
Consequences: Although highly unlikely but still if it happens then India will be forced to free Kashmir and one single Kashmir will get independence. BUT BUT BUT what about red dragon with its never ending greed? Do Kashmiris want to be part of China where they can’t even protest as protesting against government is illegal in China? Do you all want to go down the Tibet line?

4. Kashmir gets independence and Super Hypothetically stays independent as well.
Consequences: A LANDLOCKED country surrounded by giants as China, India and Pakistan can never survive financially without depending heavily on these three neighbouring countries. There will always be puppet governments in Kashmir and it will always remain a financial slave of one or the other. What good is independence when for bread and butter you remain dependent on the others FOREVER? Look at Europe, Germany, France and Italy kept on supporting creation of small small countries in name of people’s will and behind the scenes they also kept on installing puppet governments in these so called independent countries. Result today they (Germany, France, Italy) virtually rule whole of Europe while giving common man a sense of false independence. Look at Euro zone. Germany and France impose 3% deficit onto everyone else whereas they themselves have been flouting the norm regularly but no one punished them AND now when Greece fails its puppet government was forced to let loose all the austerity hell unto Greeks whereas better methods existed for a way out. And by putting so severe austerity on Greece, Germany has put everyone else in danger as well. Latest example of all this so called fictitious independence is Kosovo being just another country run by puppet government. Do you, in long run, want such conditions for Kashmir? What good is political independence if finances of your countries are dictated by others? Is this false sense of independence any useful? So think of the fact that how will you earn your daily bread after independence and then you will realise the practical difficulties in this highly globalised world.

So for once use your God given brains and not hearts. You treat those soldiers with love and affection and they will replicate. A few bad elements exist in every institution but does that make the whole institution bad. So if you keep pelting stones and burning buildings then you will achieve nothing. Why doesn’t kashmiris sit for NDA exams in large numbers? If there is trouble in family then it doesn’t mean u leave family, u try to solve it within family. How come Pakistan backed militants find hiding places inside the city buildings? How come your so called leaders never lead a protest march? Lala Lajpat Rai at the age of 70+ was leading a peaceful protest march against Simon commission when he died because of an English ordered lathi charge, does any of your Gilanis and Mirwaizes have guts for that? And you call them leaders.

So please use your brains for once and end this violence and stop supporting Pakistan and Pakistani agents (Gilanis and all like him).

Posted by 777xxx777 | Report as abusive
 

“- The history of Pakistan and the painful partition from British India which set it up as a new country without a clear identity or strong geography, a “moth-eaten” state divided between West and East Pakistan, deprived, as its early founders saw it, of the contiguous Muslim state of Kashmir” Myra.

Nice copy, wrong facts.

The clause of ‘contiguous’ Muslim dominated areas was applicable to the Radcliffe Commissionin deciding the borders, there were also undefined ‘other factors’ which were permitted to be taken into account. The main point is that the contiguous clause was not applicable to the Princely States as the founders of Pakistan and Myra well know. These states were to chose between India, Pakistan or independence. It was all but no piecemeal allocation. That in fact was the crux of Hari Singh’s problem. He had one province which was predominantly Muslim and two other areas which were predominantly Hindu and Buddhist. He could not have broken up the State of Jammu and Kashmir as he did not have that option.

Posted by DaraIndia | Report as abusive
 

Coming to Mr Zaidi’s post there is much merit in what he says about the problems tht Pakistan faces. However, the one distinction which he could have made and seems to have overlooked is the difference between the methods that the US employs, whether against COIN or CT and their applicability to pakistan. The US is at a distinct disdvantage in that it has opted to take on the fight thousands of miles from its own shores. Pakistan, fortunately, does not have to face that problem. It has the home advantage. Therefore comparisons with the US strategy would be misleading.To his credit he has avoided doing that.

Basically, all the three problems that he has spelt out can and must be tackled through policing. At home, the police should have better contacts, training, intelligence and should be provided adequate resources to counter insurgency, terror and extremism. The army should only to come to the aid of civil power. However, given Pakistan’s peculiar set up where the Army has control of many aspects of governance and policy, which should normally involve political control, one can see that the problem becomes more complex.

More importantly, though he has identified the problems lucidly, he has failed in spelling out the causes that created these problems. For instance, the one cause he has side stepped totally, is the fact that many of the problems/organisations the State is now battling, are actually products of the administration itself or were beneficiaries till recently. Till this hide and seek and cat and mouse game continues, as it still does, there is no chance that any strategy will succeed to any great extent.

Posted by DaraIndia | Report as abusive
 

@Daraindia
Let us not cherry pick to justify the act of the brits or of the Kashmir maharaja?
The Maharaja or the Nizam of Hyderabad declared the allegance to Pakistan for his majority hindu state and was surprised to see the Indian military takeover as well. Pakistan military leaders were too timid at the time and were under the control of the brits., and hence the Pashtoon tribesmen were asked to save Islam in kashmir. The damn thing was that the waziris did not see a lot of Islam in Kashmir i.e., no visible difference between the muslims and the non muslims.The military of the maharaja did not resist either.
But today we are in the 21st century and very much involved with the people and no longer so much with so called countries or borders which in any way are becoming irrelevant. Those who want to live in the past and are hanging on to the borders rather than the people, within the borders are no longer entitled for a prolonged life. The dignity of the people needs to be restored and upgraded. No longer the Govts. can suppress its people with impunity by use of military force. These Govts. must make exit or face the consequences. Peoples resistance and eventual foreign military intervention is no longer avoidable.
Rex Minor

Posted by pakistan | Report as abusive
 

Pakistan: “The Maharaja or the Nizam of Hyderabad declared the allegance to Pakistan for his majority hindu state and was surprised to see the Indian military takeover as well.”

Pakistan was supposed to have been created by merging only contiguous states. Hyderabad was one tiny little town in the middle of Deccan, landlocked from all sides by India. Sometimes, practical decisions have to be made. The people did not want to be part of Pakistan and the Nawab left India for Australia. He did not go to Pakistan, BTW. I wonder why.

“Pakistan military leaders were too timid at the time and were under the control of the brits., and hence the Pashtoon tribesmen were asked to save Islam in kashmir.The damn thing was that the waziris did not see a lot of Islam in Kashmir i.e., no visible difference between the muslims and the non muslims.The military of the maharaja did not resist either.”

You guys are making an art out of lying. Pashtuns were not launched to save Islam. You do not save Islam by violence and war. Pashtuns were not interested in Pakistan. Jinnah was worried that they might break up and form their own nation. In order to keep them aligned, he redirected them towards Kashmir. Jinnah used the plan of common enemy threat to keep the various splinter groups united and aligned. And that methodology has been expanded by his successors in Pakistan throughout history. Kashmir has given Pakistan all the cohesion to keep it together. Had Kashmir issue been resolved long ago, Pakistan probably won’t exist today. Brothers will be fighting brothers, each one claiming the other one to be a heretic, much like you have mentioned about Kashmiris above. So thank India for keeping Kashmir all these days. Without India or Kashmir, Pakistan would have fallen apart long ago. To prove my case point, read about the fall of East Pakistan and its secession.

Posted by KPSingh01 | Report as abusive
 

@Rex
“No longer the Govts. can suppress its people with impunity by use of military force. These Govts. must make exit or face the consequences. Peoples resistance and eventual foreign military intervention is no longer avoidable.”

That’s what US did with Afghanistan. Did we all not see pictures of people rejoicing with cheer when Northern Alliance walked into Kabul and Taliban ran away. You should know it more than any of us as you derive most from idiot box.

Posted by 777xxx777 | Report as abusive
 

@KPSingh
Practical decisions or land grab? I do not consider the act of Nizam the right one for hyderabad and equally I do not consider the act of the maharaja of Kashmir the right one for Kashmir either.
Pashtoons were neither launched nor directed by mr Jinnah or his proxy.
The Pashtoons went into Kashmir as I stated, and there is no lying about it! They were enticed to believe that Islam is in danger since the nonbelievers have started massacering the kashmiri muslims. You do not buy this then keep your info to your elf, and I shall keep mine.
The Pashtoons are today not far away from kashmir. If history is our guide to forecast the future, then I do not see how the repeat would be avoided. Lies can then be put to test, when you witness that the Pashtoons are unlikely to return to their dwellings in the mountains and the valleys, once the yanks have been removed from their holy soil.
A nice day.
Rex Minor

Posted by pakistan | Report as abusive
 

@777
The talibans are back directing mr Karzai, another undercoverr Taliban leader, to sort out the mess in kabul. The Northern alliance made up of tajiks, uzbeks and other minorities are not a match for the strong Pashtoon warriors, never were, though they did manage to play the game of the yanks and massacred many thousands of civilians. They even celebrated the entry of the US invasion.
What has happened since, once the yanks have left, we are going to witness the vengence of the Pashtoons against the collabolators, Wikkileak has disclosed their names already. At the present the pashtoons are stregnthing their hold in the so called northern Alliance areas.
Have patience, there are consequences for all unlawful acts.
Rex Minor

Posted by pakistan | Report as abusive
 

PS
What is the idiot box?
Rex Minor

Posted by pakistan | Report as abusive
 

Rexminor: “Pashtoons were neither launched nor directed by mr Jinnah or his proxy.
The Pashtoons went into Kashmir as I stated, and there is no lying about it! They were enticed to believe that Islam is in danger since the nonbelievers have started massacering the kashmiri muslims. You do not buy this then keep your info to your elf, and I shall keep mine.”

Lies told a thousand times replace truth. Unfortunately you have become convinced that lies are real. That’s all. I’ll go by what history books say rather than what your unauthenticated sources say.

Here is a link. Read about Operation Gulmarg:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indo-Pakist ani_War_of_1947#Initial_invasion

–The objective of the tribal invasion was to capture control of the Kashmir valley including its principal city, Srinagar, the summer capital of the state (Jammu being the winter capital). The entire was codenamed Operation Gulmarg. Maj Gen Akbar Khan of the Pakistan Army, codename “Jebel Tariq”, was made the commander.[6]:18

Deputy Commissioners and Political Agents invited each tribe in the North West Frontier Province to form “lashkars” of upto a thousand men each for invading Jammu and Kashmir for plunder,[6]:18 thereby reversing decades of British policy of restricting tribals to the east of the Durand Line.[7]:32-33 The lashkars were formed at Bannu, Wana, Thal, Kohat and Peshawar and Nowshera where they were armed by the local brigade commanders from army stocks. Two regular army officers, and some soldiers disguised as tribals, were provided to each lashkar as also deserters from State forces as guides. The lashkars were to concentrate at a segregated area near Abbottabad where they would be briefed and dispersed for the various missions.[6]:18

The overall plan for the capture of Jammu and Kashmir was as follows:-

Ten lashkars would advance along the axis Domel – Baramulla – Srinagar, capture the seat of govt and announce Pakistani rule or accession of the state to Pakistan by a puppet govt. The forces would capture the Srinagar airfield and push southward to secure the Banihal Pass to cut of possible ingress from India.
Two lashkars would support the main offensive by advancing through the Haji Pir Pass and outflanking the defences from the south while another two laskars did the same from the North through the Nastachhun pass.
Another force of ten lashkars would infiltrate into Jammu district from Kotli, Mirpur and Sialkot to capture Poonch, Rajauri and expand eastward towards Jammu.
In consonance with Operation Gulmarg, Pakistani forces comprising regular troops from Gilgit Scouts, tribal lashkars and deserters of State Forces would capture the Northern territories and Ladakh including Gilgit, Skardu , Kargil, Leh and the Shyok/Nubra valleys. –

“The Pashtoons are today not far away from kashmir. If history is our guide to forecast the future, then I do not see how the repeat would be avoided.”

Pashtuns can run in and hide inside their caves and huts when attacked in their territory. They can waylay trucks and people and hold them for ransom. That’s about it. In today’s world, Pashtuns are as dangerous as anyone with an AK47. They are not going to go to war with India and conquer Kashmir and beyond. Those days are over. Staging invasions costs a lot of money and resources. Your beloved Pashtuns have none and are depending upon inam from the Pakistani military which is treating them like dogs to go fetch the balls. First let us see if these mighty Pashtuns will have the courage to take on even the Pakistani army. Then let us worry about what Indian military will do to them.

“Lies can then be put to test, when you witness that the Pashtoons are unlikely to return to their dwellings in the mountains and the valleys, once the yanks have been removed from their holy soil.”

They are going to face Northern alliance, which is stronger today than it was ever before. May be young Pashtun men might give pleasure to Tajiks and Uzbeks. They have been starved of that for a while. So let the yanks leave and the orgy will begin.

Posted by KPSingh01 | Report as abusive
 

@Rex
“They were enticed to believe that Islam is in danger since the nonbelievers have started massacering the kashmiri muslims”

Keyword is in your English only. Read your statement again. ENTICED. Who enticed them? Was that enticement legal? Was that enticement genuine even? On one hand you say one should not interfere in other country’s matters but its OK is muslims do it but wrong if non-muslims do it???

Unlawful is a highly subjective words. At the time of brits occupation manufacturing salt in India by native Indians, was illegal. Same goes for Taliban. In Taliban rule dancing and music was illegal. Girl education was illegal. Not sporting a beard was illegal. So if someone does it then he should be punished. So what’s the difference between Brits and Taliban when both made inhuman practices as illegal. If pashtoons come to kashmir then its legal but if India tells Afghanis to give a better deal to women then its illegal…WOW…u have super human intelligence…

Ohhhh yes I forgot I am influenced by zionist media……

PS. We tauntingly call TV as idiot box in India.

Posted by 777xxx777 | Report as abusive
 

Typo:: “Brits and Taliban when both made inhuman practices as [illegal]”

Rephrased:: “Brits and Taliban when both made inhuman practices as [legal]“.

Posted by 777xxx777 | Report as abusive
 

@KPSingh, 777
Now you are throwing a problem which many parents and certain school teachers are confronting. The fathers or a teacher narrate to a young boy or a girl of 12 an episode one day and the following day is asked why the account is different from that in the internet. Following your philosophy one could say that the internet is idiot.

I would simply state that one needs to understand some basics first!

1. If a muslim learns that his fellow muslim is being persecuted in another part of the world simply because of his faith, then he is religiously obliged to help him. To day this task is shared by various UNO and European institutions. I used the word enticement since there was little truth about it. Those voluntiers who went over to other parts of India before the partition did confirm Hindus atrocities against the muslims.

2. Let me now describe for you the current scenario whereby the so called taliban Pashtoons come to the city or a village in a special attire and go to a restaurant for a meal and then leave without being asked to pay. From the city they go straight to the battle front on foot, or a transport they can get hold of. Now just imagine they number several thousands at the same time, which restaurant is able to provide them with food and water. The administrations in Pakistan had only one choice to organise and prepare for them the overnight stay, the meals and an adequate transport where possible, failing which the Pashtoon warriors were quite capable of taking food from the restaurants and the private houses by sheer force. Pakistan army or the para military militias were of no match.
Are you therefore going to call this assistnce by the local police force to save their own skin, as being launched and directed by mr Jinnah? Then be my guest, believe in the romantic stories of the failed episode. I can assure you Harry Potter would include more suspense and adventure.
Lastly, you are very loose with the word lie without knowing the meaning of a lie. I have no intention of deception nor any other motive to distort facts. You are definitely not going to qualify for a PHD, if you are just pasting statements of others or quoting wikipedia or the like.
Have a nice day.
Rex Minor

Posted by pakistan | Report as abusive
 

@777
The difference between the Brits and the so called taliban is that Brits were foreigners and the Talibans are in their own land. Have you ever heard of the Afghan king who because of his love for the leather bags introduced coins made from the leather. He stayed for a few days. What the Talibans are good at is to create fear, for this has been the weakness of all foreign invaders. Mr Obama is aware and so are his Generals that the DNA of Pashtoons do the have ‘gene’ which causes fear. There are not many Rajputs to confront them.
Rex Minor
PS Mr Karzai has admitted receiving cash payments from Iran. I heard him saying via the idiot box that George W was aware of this, and that he is going to continue receiving cash payments from Iran.
Please note that he has also started imposing restrictions on the illicit practices in Kabul city. Is he going to be the new Taliban leader, I guess so.

Posted by pakistan | Report as abusive
 

@Rex
“The difference between the Brits and the so called taliban is that Brits were foreigners and the Talibans are in their own land”

So you are saying is that if locals do inhuman things with locals then it is fine. It is fine for a local Pashtoon to make life hell for a fellow pashtoon. It is fine for local pashtoons to make education for girls as illegal and treat women as chattel. In that case thank God India is not full of such mad believers.

“If a muslim learns that his fellow muslim is being persecuted in another part of the world simply because of his faith, then he is religiously obliged to help him.”

See again trouble. Read your statement again and again and again. HOW THE HELL DOES A MUSLIM COME TO KNOW OF A FELLOW MUSLIM BEING PERSECUTED IN ANOTHER PART OF WORLD JUST “BECAUSE OF HIS FAITH”???????????????????????????
Most muslims mostly and wrongly ASSUME that if a muslim is being persecuted somewhere else then it must be because of his faith. This sense of false victim-hood is the greatest enemy of muslim world today. How can pashtoons be sure that India so called “occupied” Kashmir for killing muslims?? How are you so sure that Indians butchered muslims in Kashmir? Because Pakistan says so and Pakistan is Islamic believer?? Who told pashtoons at that time that India killed muslims in Kashmir?? Did someone not tell them that hindus were killed as well by the muslim? It is OK if muslim kills non-muslim for any reason but extremely bad if a non-muslim kills a muslim even for self defence. You never seem to be concerned of Kashmiri hindu pandits being butchered, just for being hindus (I know this because I have met quite a few Kashmiri pandits who were forced to leave their beloved homes for sake of remaining alive), by very same believers you keep on praising. What great logic you have.

Bigotry at its super best. Sorry but your Pakistan/Afghanistan flattery may have takers in Pakistan/Afghanistan but not anywhere else.

Posted by 777xxx777 | Report as abusive
 

Rex Minor,

Your statements are becoming a garbled set of words that do not make any sense. I can tell clearly that you did not read the reference that I gave. Nor are you providing any authentic references to substantiate your points. Pashtoons are ordinary human beings, just like anyone else. There is nothing invincible about them. There is no need to hero worship them. The US or the USSR could have driven them up the wall if they did not face international pressure. May be they are used to hardship due to the harsh environment in which they live. There are brave societies across the world who can stand up and fight with bravery, dignity and honor. My own community prides itself on valor. Then there are the Gurkhas, the Zulus in South Africa and the Japanese. Do not under-estimate these cultures. They all have moved on with the modern world. It is time Pashtuns joined the others and became civilized. Wars have become much more lethal compared to before. If Pashtuns are so brave as you claim, then let us see if they would come out in the open and fight the NATO armies man to man like brave soldiers do. Those who hide in Quetta and North Waziristan, waiting for the Americans to leave are absolute cowards. No one fears them.

Posted by KPSingh01 | Report as abusive
 

@KPSingh
What are you telling us now. First you quote wikipedia information input of the Indian military and present them as authentic history and now you are stating what I would call the ‘motherhood’. What is the point you are making? As I replied your comments about another article, let us cut it out, it is proving to be very boring. Let us move on, you are a very brave person and so are all the Americans and the NATO people etc. etc. Does this make you feel better. O’K, let us now move on!!
Rex Minor

Posted by pakistan | Report as abusive
 

@777
Let us move on and not make it an unending story. Let us jointly salute all the good guys and the brave ones and curse the bad guys and the cowards. Let us just move on. Time is the only commodity one cannot buy in the market. Enjoy your Idiot box and I will enjoy my glotze.

Rex Minor

Posted by pakistan | Report as abusive
 

Rex Minor: “Let us move on, you are a very brave person and so are all the Americans and the NATO people etc. etc. Does this make you feel better. O’K, let us now move on!!”

I am ok with this so long as you do not come back singing Pashtun glories again. That sounds warped to everyone here.

Posted by KPSingh01 | Report as abusive
 

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