“Orientalism” in Afghanistan and Pakistan

October 22, 2010

dust storm twoIn his must-read essay on the debate about the state of the U.S.-Pakistan relationship, Amil Khan has one of the best opening lines I’ve seen for a while: ”Much is said about Pakistan, but I’m constantly saddened that so many innocent pixels are lost without good cause.”

Much the same can be said about the recent flurry of stories on the war in Afghanistan, from upbeat assessments of the U.S.-led military offensive in Kandahar to renewed interest in the prospects for a peace deal with Afghan insurgents.

There is a shade of “Orientalism” in all this, a modern-day equivalent of Edward Said’s 1978 argument that the collective understanding of the Middle East, South Asia and Islam was skewed by the vested interests of European colonial powers.

Scroll forward to the 21st century and we have the United States keen to end a war that is increasingly unpopular at home, with a president who has committed to starting to bring home troops by July 2011.   That framework would be best suited by military success in Afghanistan, peace talks which would begin to show fruit by – let’s choose a random date, July 2011 – and a willingness by Pakistan to stick to the U.S. timetable when it comes to tackling militants on its own territory.

Hence the “received wisdom” in the media – or perhaps more precisely, the consensus you would find if you averaged out all the stories on Google News – tends to fit neatly into that framework. 

The problem is that just as Said complained the “Orientalist” world view distorted the facts to suit European interests, the current U.S.-inspired narrative tends to overlook the very real people and countries which get in the way of its own deadlines.

Start with Afghanistan.  We have heard from non-U.S. sources that all insurgent groups are engaged in tentative “talks about talks” to try to agree the ground rules under which all Afghan factions could be brought together into “reconciliation” talks. The United States and NATO have meanwhile been talking up a separate effort  to win over individual insurgent fighters or commanders through “reintegration”.

It is not even clear that these two processes – reconciliation and reintegration - can work alongside each other. Arguably an aggressive drive to break the insurgency through reintegration undermines any chances of reconciliation by increasing mistrust.

But more to the point – at least on the subject of this post – why is anyone assuming the Afghans – insurgents or otherwise – will stick to the U.S. timetable? Afghans have a reputation for being fiercely independent; negotiations have a history of being long and protracted, and undercut by broken promises on all sides.  “Let’s get this sorted out by July 2011,” may be boardroom language, but it is not a sentence you would expect to hear about Afghanistan. Or as one Afghan-watcher said to me: “We should avoid writing Afghan history to suit our convenience.”

Then there is Pakistan – a country of nearly 180 million people who on the whole are somewhat reluctant to follow the American narrative.

As Amil Khan writes: ”Pakistan’s problems with extremism will not end with the U.S.-led involvement in Afghanistan because the problem did not start with 9/11.”  Regardless of any peace deal in Afghanistan, the United States still has to figure out how to manage its relationship with Pakistan to ensure Islamist militants no longer pose a threat either to the outside world or to Pakistan itself.

The country has been struggling to work out its identity, and the role of Islam, not just since independence in 1947, but even before, when the idea of a separate nation for South Asian Muslims was first raised.  Tackling the many issues that confront Pakistan will be a complex and lengthy process, and not one that can be answered by the simplistic narrative (and I’m doing a Google consensus here) that it just needs to send its army into North Waziristan and all will be well.  Sending the military into North Waziristan to destroy a safe base for al Qaeda and Afghan militants may help the United States stabilise Afghanistan, but many Pakistanis argue – rightly or wrongly – that it will not help Pakistan stabilise Pakistan.

And finally there is India, which increasingly hates to be hyphenated with Pakistan as it pursues its own trajectory as a growing economic power, but  which is also intimately bound up in Pakistan’s idea of itself. 

No Western leader, with a struggling economy at home, can afford to ignore India’s economic potential – as British Prime Minister David Cameron made clear in his visit to India in July. The administration of President Barack Obama – who according to Rob Woodward’s “Obama’s Wars” was very clear about the centrality of the India-Pakistan relationship in determining the outcome in Afghanistan - very early on dropped the idea, under Indian pressure, of appointing a special envoy for Afghanistan, Pakistan and India/Kashmir.

Yet how much of our understanding of the relationship between Pakistan and India is “true” in some kind of objective sense, and how much is it influenced by the changing attitude of Western countries in their enthusiasm for tapping into Indian economic growth – so much so that they dare not even utter the word “Kashmir”?

I should wrap up now and end with two more questions. What will the 21st century equivalent of Edward Said tell us about the period between 9/11 and July 2011 that we should have understood but did not see? And at what points did that blindness undermine policy decisions?

Comments

A very good article for academic exercise. mr Obama with his clintonian state department has messed up everything that george w achieved with a quick fix in Afghanistan. The republicans from the tea party are forecast to massacre the democrats in the Nov election, and with the republican congress Mr Obama would be like a eunich.
Rex Minor

Posted by pakistan | Report as abusive
 

Pakistan can break up the emerging India as the economic darling of the West euphoria in a heartbeat. All they have to do is send in trained militants into India and spoil the party. India has become hostage to a nuclear armed and radicalized Pakistan. Pakistanis might want to be progressive, but as far as India is concerned, they overwhelmingly support radical militants. Be it Kashmir issue or not, Pakistan simply cannot watch an India that is growing by leaps and bounds and getting everyone’s favor and attention.

The aftermath of all the “settlements” in Afghanistan does not bode well for India. The US might want to get the hell out of the region by declaring some kind of victory after negotiating with the Afghan tribes. Pakistan will black mail the West by pointing its nuclear pistol at India or threaten to send in militants to destroy Western investment centers in India.

A complete nuclear war is in the horizon for South Asia. Or Pakistan might fall into further chaos. A lot depends upon how the Afghan Taliban makes its moves. If they treat the Americans with contempt and deceive them, the war will go from bad to worse. That will push Pakistan into a tail spin.

If on the other hand they make a serious deal with the Americans that they will not mess with the Western nations and will only confine their activities to South Asia, then India will come under a lot of heat. The next time any attack is staged against India, there is only one option left – go on an all out war offensive and if that war escalates into a nuclear confrontation, so be it. At least we will all die with dignity and courage.

It all depends upon how the dice is going to roll in the near future.

Posted by KPSingh01 | Report as abusive
 

” India, which increasingly hates to be hyphenated with Pakistan as it pursues its own trajectory as a growing economic power, but which is also intimately bound up in Pakistan’s idea of itself. ”
And this is why India really can’t do anything to avoid a conflict with Pakistan. India is hostage to Pakistani internal politics, which is practically inseparable from it’s geopolitics. Wars are the inevitable consequence of Pakistan’s sense of victim hood, which has been nurtured in it’s citizens over the last six decades to meet shallow political objectives.

Posted by trickey | Report as abusive
 

I think that even if India willingly gives up Kashmir then also Pakistan greed and hatred will not be satisfied. Pakistan is like a dacoit out of control who only knows to satisfy its hunger by looting and nothing but looting. So KP is right that problem with Pakistan here is that they just cannot watch India grow leaps and bounds even if there is no Kashmir. What would you say when PTV (Pakistan’s national channel, which in turn is heavily controlled by Pak government/PA/ISI) openly preaches and spreads hatred messages against India inside Pakistan? There are people who care least about India/Pakistan and even more lesser about Kashmir and say simplistically that give Kashmir its independence and all will be well. What those outsiders don’t understand is that the hatred for India was what made a Pakistan in first place. So as long as a nation remains entangled in hatred it will never achieve true happiness for its people. Hatred in one’s heart can never get the love of others.

Posted by 777xxx777 | Report as abusive
 

The Pashtoons demand is a very simple one, the foreign military should exit or face armed resistance. This applies to the USA and NATO military as well as the Pakistan military. Indian leaders have now pushed Kashmiris nearer to the Palestinians, both people have been struggling to free their land from the military occupation. The sooner the world realizes that we are witnessing the violent acts of resistance in several muslim majority sates and not any sort of insurgency or terrorism, the sooner the world community could end this human waste. There should also be no secret that the muslims religiouly resist occupation and would never accept slavery, the anomaly which for a very long period was the norm both in Africa and the United Stes of America.The alternative is to simply concentrate on economics and let the people of the world gradualy go into abyss.

Rex Minor

Posted by pakistan | Report as abusive
 

@Rex
As for Kashmir you could just read the comment of Kashmiri in one of the other articles titled: “Why is Kashmir upset over choice of new interlocutors?”. He replied to me that Kashmiris don’t want Indian Army to go and they whole heartedly want to live and grow with India (It may be his personal thoughts though) but problem is that Indian Army has to be more accountable and responsible which I also think is correct. But of course u care least about Indian muslims’ attitude but are concerned for minority suffering even if u don’t know what they are suffering from. All u know is to give stupid commentary about India…ha ha ha…u are one of those who are just blinded by Islam, Islam, Islam and have no sense of the world affairs (at least none of India’s)….happy dreaming!!!

Posted by 777xxx777 | Report as abusive
 

Rex Minor: “There should also be no secret that the muslims religiouly resist occupation and would never accept slavery”

Not just Muslims – everyone does not want to be under the subjugation of someone else.

The problem today is that Muslims seem to have one set of rule for themselves and another for others. Where they are a minority, they fight for justice, equality etc or violently seek complete independence. Where they are a majority, they use violence to subjugate others and employ pressure constantly to force the minorities to convert to Islam. In most Muslim majority countries, minorities have disappeared by either converting to Islam or getting out. Look at Sudan today where the Muslim North is fighting the Christian South.

Many Muslims do not like the idea of co-existence with others. Pakistan was formed violently for that very reason – Muslims cannot live in a “Hindu” India. The problem is that Muslims are living in a “Hindu” India now even after the formation of Pakistan. And Pakistanis are constantly bickering about the “Second class status” of Muslims in India, while not addressing their own minorities like Shias, Ahmadis, Hindus and Sikhs.

Muslims want to live within the enclosure of Sharia law which, according to their belief, over rides any constitution of a state. Some countries object to Sharia laws – forcing women to wear burqa, apostasy laws, marriage restrictions, divorce laws etc are not compatible with modern secular nations. Whenever groups object to that, they are branded as religious right, fanatics, extremists etc.

All this talk of Islam is for peace, all citizens have equal rights in Dar-Ul-Islam etc are only in the holy book. In reality, it is just as bad as anywhere else.

Clashes have erupted because people are trying to have one law for themselves and another for the others. It is time people learned to co-exist and respect each other’s values.

Posted by KPSingh01 | Report as abusive
 

@777
Let us assume that the comments you quote are the genuine comments of the majority of the Kashmiris! Are you therefore in favour of Indian Govt. ending the military suppression in Kashmir?
@KPSingh
I do not regard your total commentry as purely a rhetoric but it is very emotional. I agree that the wrongs are being committed by muslims as well.
Now let me try to understand your grievances and conclusions with regard to Sudan and the reason why the muslim (north)is fighting the christian (south). I thought that the sudanese govt. and the separatists have agreed to hold a referandum next year and split the country in two, if this is the wish of the majority?You have any problems with the agreed solution?
Could you please enlighten us in which of the majority muslim countries, non- muslims are being forced to either leave or convert to Islam? We are being shown on BBC regular complaints from the Indian christian community who are being forced to convert to hinduism or being murdered? How come the Indian high commissoner in the UK does not challenge these statements, if they happen to be false?

PAKISTAN WAS NOT VIOLENTLY FORMED, but in an orderly and peaceful manner under the supervision of the British Lords. Unfortunately the hindus were not fully prepared for the loss of certain territories and hence the aftermath history. Not knowing the internal problems which the muslims were facing in the hindu majority area at that time(even today it is a mystery for me)I do not know why on earth the muslim leaders like mr Jinnah and co put forward the proposal for a separate territory for muslims? Be it as it is, a large number of muslims were either forced or voluntarily came into today’s Pakistan. People from Bengal have since decided to separate from Pakistan with military assistance from the Indian military.

My own impression from the history is that the Indian Govt. has failed to build a Nation of the people left in their domain and several Pakistan Govts. have eversince the partition, been beating the drums of a muslim state not knowing what sort of a Country was in mind of the leaders?
Let us alweays keep in mind that the ancestors of the majority of muslims in India and Pakistan were previously non-believers.
The violernce within the muslim community is a very recent development. Instead of the dialogue we are witnessing violence. There is nothing Islam about it. Let me state that the items you mention such as burqa, marriage restrictions, divorce law have nothing to do with Isla religion as such.
Rex Minor
sorry,the rest in the next post.

Posted by pakistan | Report as abusive
 

@KPSingh
Your comments about the Pakistanis bickering about the mistreatment of muslims in India is difficult to follow. We are all living in a multipolar world and most democracies now accept the freedom of expression of individuals. It does not matter what sort of a Govt. each country chooses, the western Govts. calling their constitutions and laws being based on christian values and India with hindu laws and Pakistan and Afghanistan calling clling them Islamic. The minorities must have the laws for protection in these countries, wheather they are called secular or not! Perthaps you should elaborate about the muslim country whose laws in practice do not provide protection for minorities. I can state with clarity that India is suppressing the majority of kashmiris in their own land by the use of the military. To say then officialy that India is a secular democracy is nothing but a farce and intended to mislead the world. To use your words then, India should rename the country to “Hindu India” with the constitution based on Hindu laws, whatever this means. I am sure that there must be some sort of protection for minorities even in today’s Hindu laws, despite their complicated caste system, Full Stop. I am sure the muslims living in India would go along with it similar to thousands of hindus living in western vountries who are more or less content with the christian based constitutions. As a muslim I would have no grudge as long as i do not have to be suppressed by the military.
Finaly, I would like to clarify that Islam shows to muslims the humble way of life, not of arrogance or domination, not very different from christianity and judaism. This does not, however, means that all those who claim to be muslims are following the tenets of Islam and are religious. Therefore, going back to my lead sentence in the first post, those who accept Islam must religiously resist slavery. I have not read about such a resistance from the christian communities of the USA and the former colonialists of Africa and the South America? Quite the contrary, they encouraged slavery!!
Have a nice day.
Rex Minor

Posted by pakistan | Report as abusive
 

Rex Minor: “I thought that the sudanese govt. and the separatists have agreed to hold a referandum next year and split the country in two, if this is the wish of the majority?You have any problems with the agreed solution?”

Referendum is the outcome of violence that preceded that. And that violence was for dominance.

BTW, I am not a Hindu. I stand neutral between Hindus and Muslims. Yet what I have mentioned is my own observation. I have grievances against the non-Sikh groups in India. But I would not club them all as Hindu centered. My relatives died at the hands of goons unleashed by the Congress party in 1984 when Indira Gandhi was assassinated.

“Could you please enlighten us in which of the majority muslim countries, non- muslims are being forced to either leave or convert to Islam?”

Start with this link and expand from there:

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/2 153026/posts

“We are being shown on BBC regular complaints from the Indian christian community who are being forced to convert to hinduism or being murdered?”

You cannot convert to Hinduism. There is no such thing as proselytization for Hindu systems from what I know. So can you quote the reference (at least one) from the BBC?

“How come the Indian high commissoner in the UK does not challenge these statements, if they happen to be false?”

Why don’t you ask him?

“PAKISTAN WAS NOT VIOLENTLY FORMED, but in an orderly and peaceful manner under the supervision of the British Lords. Unfortunately the hindus were not fully prepared for the loss of certain territories and hence the aftermath history.”

Though you claim not to be a Pakistani, in words I can see you are one at heart. This is probably what they teach in Pakistan.

Read this link and educate yourself a bit more:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Direct_Acti on_Day

Jinnah and his fellow goons knew that they were not going to get Pakistan without instigating violence. So direct action day was launched where non-Muslims were attacked, knowing well that retaliation would come. And retaliation was used to amplify the effort and isolate the Muslims who were not interested in partition. And it is that violence that led to the deaths of close to 6 million people (Hindus, Sikhs and Muslims) and cross migration of people. You call this an organized and peaceful secession? How ignorant can you get?

“Not knowing the internal problems which the muslims were facing in the hindu majority area at that time(even today it is a mystery for me)I do not know why on earth the muslim leaders like mr Jinnah and co put forward the proposal for a separate territory for muslims?”

There was no internal problem. It was created so that Mr. Jinnah could be a head of a state. He achieved his lifetime ambition and left the region in a never ending divide and chaos.

“Be it as it is, a large number of muslims were either forced or voluntarily came into today’s Pakistan. People from Bengal have since decided to separate from Pakistan with military assistance from the Indian military.”

That clearly shows that Muslims were suffering more at the hands of fellow Muslims than at the hands of non-Muslims.

“My own impression from the history is that the Indian Govt. has failed to build a Nation of the people left in their domain and several Pakistan Govts. have eversince the partition, been beating the drums of a muslim state not knowing what sort of a Country was in mind of the leaders?”

India has not built a nation of people yet. It has been working on it for the past sixty three years and it is a very short time in a nation’s history. India has secular goals and it will achieve that goal as time progresses and the nation grows more mature. Pakistan’s history simply shows that it is easy to pelt stones, stage strikes, kill people, violate law and order than run a government and build a nation. And that arises because of the culture that seems to be part of many Muslim communities – force things by violence.

“Let us alweays keep in mind that the ancestors of the majority of muslims in India and Pakistan were previously non-believers.”

They believed in something else.

“The violernce within the muslim community is a very recent development. Instead of the dialogue we are witnessing violence. There is nothing Islam about it.”

Shia-Sunni violence has been going on for a thousand years. Which planet are you living on? Violence is part and parcel of Islamic societies. Fear is the weapon used to keep people under control.

“Let me state that the items you mention such as burqa, marriage restrictions, divorce law have nothing to do with Isla religion as such.”

You must be kidding. A Muslim woman can never marry a non-Muslim man. A Muslim man can marry a non-Muslim woman and the children would only be Muslims. There is no room for apostasy in Islam. Apostasy is punishable by death. Rape needs male witnesses for confirmation. If not the victim of rape is punishable for adultery. A man can marry four wives. A woman cannot marry more than one man. In Saudi Arabia no woman can drive. No woman can go alone.

I agree that Islam is yet another religion. But I cannot stand the argument that all troubles arise due to non-Muslims.

Rex Minor
sorry,the rest in the next post.

Posted by KPSingh01 | Report as abusive
 

@KPSingh
Sorry for taking you seriously. You are the victim of the news media and the hollywood stars who have been trying during the past decade or so to influence the political agenda of the USA. And consequently of the western Govts. You genuinely need a several months stay in venezuela,cuba or even China to bring you back to the reality with a stimulised common sense.
Rex Minor

Posted by pakistan | Report as abusive
 

@”@KPSingh
Sorry for taking you seriously. You are the victim of the news media and the hollywood stars who have been trying during the past decade or so to influence the political agenda of the USA. And consequently of the western Govts. You genuinely need a several months stay in venezuela,cuba or even China to bring you back to the reality with a stimulised common sense.”
Rex Minor Posted by pakistan

ROFLOL, Classic Rex Minor/Pakistan response! When unable to counter with FACTS, talk nonsensical jibberish about some “alternate media” & “common sense” reserved solely for the looneys. As alway

Posted by Mortal1 | Report as abusive
 

continued….As always, bigotry & stupidity at it’s comical best!

Posted by Mortal1 | Report as abusive
 

Rex Minor: ” You genuinely need a several months stay in venezuela,cuba or even China to bring you back to the reality with a stimulised common sense.”

You forgot to include Burma, North Korea, Saudi Arabia, Somalia and Libya. Looks like you have reached absolute enlightenment by being exposed to the ones you have mentioned as well as the ones I have. Good for you. If that is the case, why did your beloved country Pakistan take sides with the US, the great “Satan” according to your perspective? Of course you will hide behind the statement that you are not a Pakistani. May be not, but you do support Pakistani cause. So explain to all of us about why it was all right to fight the Communist Soviets and at the same time be the best allies of Communist China.

Thanks for not taking me seriously. I was worried about a fatwa for my head.

Posted by KPSingh01 | Report as abusive
 

@Rex
“Are you therefore in favour of Indian Govt. ending the military suppression in Kashmir”

Depends what you mean by suppression?? I am NOT in favour of pulling back even a single soldier from Kashmir and hence putting India’s integrity in danger BUT I am all up for making Army more accountable and culprits be brought to justice. There was heavy presence of Army in Kashmir for past more than 10 years but violence erupted only 4 months back and because of 4 month trouble u equated Kashmir to Palestine…this is enough to signify your utter foolishness and ignorance…

Your problem is that you watch too much idiot box from your couch and know nothing and then blame others for being victim of news media. You think only muslims suffered at the time of partition…that’s enough to signify your narrow mindedness. At the time of partition sometimes it also so happened that the hindus who were shifting to India and coming via train were all killed and the train when reached India was full of dead bodies of hindus. I know this because my own family backgrounds is from Lahore in Pakistan and they had to shift to India under intense fear of being butchered. I am sure Islam does not teach such heinous violence but political Islamists like Jinnah used Islam for great violence at that time. At the time of negotiations, Jinnah even threatened Nehru of large scale civil war if his demand of Pakistan was not accepted but all this is not shown on TV so you don’t know of it. Obviously you know nothing of India’s history and just bark about in air.

Mortal is right, Rex = Bigotry and stupidity at its comical best!! Keep it up Rex boy…keep supplying us with more laughter!!

Posted by 777xxx777 | Report as abusive
 

@KPSingh
Of the additional countries you mentioned, Saudi arabia should be the best one, but they do not allow non muslims into the holy places. Perhaps, you should consider spending a weak in Lourdes,France or Stonehedge in the Uk to renew your spirtual stregnths. We all need them every three or four years to remove the effects of the cyber attacks from the great satan USA. No, I am not hiding behind any one, Islamabad has been the summer residence of the satanic forces for a very long period now. Unless they remove the capitol out of the city and stop their love affair with the yanks, the country is going to face further so called natural disasters and the unrest among its population would not ebb. Pakistan has never fought the soviet Union. With regard to its relationship with China, this is the only good thing they did in its foreign policy. Both Pakistan and India could learn something from China namely, non interfearence in the domestic affairs of other countries. In my view, China has very swiftly evolved into an economic power and is working consistently to improve the well being of all its citizens. We are very lucky to watch the development of the world greatest Super Power.
Rex Minor

Posted by pakistan | Report as abusive
 

@”Thanks for not taking me seriously. I was worried about a fatwa for my head.” Posted by KPSingh01

Of course, he doesen’t take you, me or anyone here seriously because after all, we are all a part of the “saffron brigade” Lmao.

Posted by Mortal1 | Report as abusive
 

@777
I do not wish to live in a police state, let alone in a place where the militry is keeping law and order. I do not therefore wish this recipe for Kashmiris as well. Like the lady from the USA stated that there are going to be the consequences for any unlawful act.

I have also read about the stories of trains full of dead muslims arriving in lahore, Pakistan. The whole history of mankind has been periodically full of cruel eposodes.
I also know that humans are resilient, learn from the past, and move on to become democratic and civilised. How many europeans do you reckon were killed in ww1 and ww2. Let us look for peace and we will find it. Sticking to the military might in Kashmir and witnessing the death in mombai is also not a good solution; but perhaps you are content with the status quo! Let us hope that the kashmiri resistance is eventualy following the Gandhian approach of non-violence.

Rex Minor

Posted by pakistan | Report as abusive
 

Rex Minor: “Pakistan has never fought the soviet Union.”

Pakistan participated in the war against the Soviets in Afghanistan between 1978 to 1988. The whole thing was staged as a proxy war by radicalizing and training Afghans, giving them weapons and providing them with shelter and protection. Proxy war or not, Pakistan did fight the Soviets along with the US.

“With regard to its relationship with China, this is the only good thing they did in its foreign policy. Both Pakistan and India could learn something from China namely, non interference in the domestic affairs of other countries.”

You can save words by simply saying “My enemy’s enemy is my friend.” There is no need to honey coat anything about China.

It is interesting to see you call the US the great Satan, while praising the autocratic communist regime in China as a source of inspiration. Is it because of your cultural alignment arising from an Islamic background? Your praise of Pashtuns tends to make me infer that you believe in force, control and limited rights for people. It fits into the Islamic state ideals. Chinese government denies right to all its people, treats them like pack of ducks and ruthlessly deals with everyone. The US, despite its geo-political blunders, is based on freedom, free speech, rights and generating wealth. Everyone is familiar with the “Living the American dream” phrase. I am yet to see a “Chinese dream” that people long for. You must wonder why people from many countries try to migrate into the US against the odds and not one would do that in the case of China. Have you seen oppressed people flocking to China? That is something for you to think about.

“In my view, China has very swiftly evolved into an economic power and is working consistently to improve the well being of all its citizens. We are very lucky to watch the development of the world greatest Super Power.”

China got lucky when the US decided to prop them up against the Soviet Union during the Vietnam war days. They gave most favored nation status, set up factories and both sides made huge profits. China is very good at taking and it is not well known for giving. If China gives anything it takes double that in return. All countries supported by China are rogue states – North Korea, Burma are typical examples. China is a closed society lacking the global cultural influence that US and other Western countries have. China makes goods at cheaper price. That’s about it. And they can be countered easily by setting up tariffs on their goods.
Do not glorify China in order to vent your anger at the US. The US might have gone against your beloved country Pakistan recently, but in an overall sense, I’d prefer the US over China any day. I don’t care if the Chinese become rich and powerful. They are not a nation that can be reasoned with or trusted.

Posted by KPSingh01 | Report as abusive
 

@KPSingh
My suggestion to you to take a reorientiering break was sincere, not a joke.
People who migrate to the USA are ignorants, those who go for higher studies or economic reasons, one should consider them as exceptions. I must admit I have never appreciated the American dreams. Today there are more con people in the USA than those in the whole of the world. Billions of dollars have been lost by the europeans investors in the USA casino world. Most of the culprits have gone unpunished.
News media and hollywood stars as well as lobbyists are influencing the USA administration, Torture camps and prisons which have more foreigners and afro americans than the non blacks. American dream, A democracy where people being elected with fraud, George w example? Liberal societies, declaring two man partnership as husband and wife and woman relation with another woman equal to that of husband and wife. What is your criteria man for a country to be praised?
The USA which has been practicing its colonial policies on the basis of lies, is a unique episode in history. The words of the Vanezualen President, not mine. I do not live in the USA, not even in the neighbourhood, do you? Let us ask the USA neighbours about the Gringo Land?
I have lived in South America and know the feelings of the people! What is your problem with China; today they have the fastest train in the world and fast developing the infrastructure second to none in the world. You are telling us this is due to cheap prices and kind support from the USA. Wake up man, you are lost in the media world, pulling out crap from the history about the forced conversion to Islam. The history we read is made up of more than fifty percent lies and individual interpretations and tomorrow’s history is likely to be more tha two third lies, thanks to the press in anglo saxon world. The wikileak cannot cope with the mountain of lies which the USA is still projecting and thanks to you still believing in it.
Pakistan has never participated in a war against the Soviets, either by proxy or some other act. They do allow the passage of goods to Afghanistan from the Karachi port to Afghanistan border. This route was used by the CIA to ship a selected numbers of stingers. Does this mean fighting the Soviet might. Let us not overblow the aid to pashtoon mujahideens which the Americans and the Brits supplied, most of which went to the tajiks anfd the uzbeks who were in the north closer to the Soviet Union!
That you keep on reminding me of my beloved country Pakistan gives me very strange feelings. I am a believer and I love my family not any god damn country, nor do I hate any country. I have no reasons to carry hate for any one. Is it a crime to feel pain for the victims in this world? Yes, I am not ashamed to feel pain for others, I do not complain about my woes, though. yes I admire the winner and the one who is steadfast and does not surrender!
Rex Minor
PS It does not matter what the reasons of success for the chinese are or the reasons for the USA economy taking a second place very soon:

Posted by pakistan | Report as abusive
 

Rex Minor,

I think you have switched over to emotional and irrational ranting. And you are unable to convincingly paint an evil picture about the US, no matter how you are trying. We all have eyes and ears too. We can see things for ourselves. If you take a vote today in the world about which country people look up to when there are disasters, political issues, higher education etc, I can give it to you in writing that it will be US and not any other country.

You are confusing between the US administrators and policy makers and the country. The latter probably is the best place in the world where freedom is really guaranteed for the average citizen. The US is not driven by the CIA. And people have the power to elect a new government every four years. You are able to write in an electronic forum like this due to American invented technology and not Chinese. It is the US that allows you to use its own resources and condemn them at the same time. Try that with China and see what happens to you. Their Nobel Laurette this year is in jail. That speaks so much for China’s international stature.

Without American investment, China today will be a huge North Korea threatening the world. So thank the Americans for turning them around and showing them the path of capitalism which has brought China to where it is.

Your claim that Pakistan never participated in the Jihad against the Soviets is not true. I can recommend a couple of books for you to read. But I don’t think you will have the inclination to read it with any objectivity. Pakistan’s ISI was trained by the CIA in clandestine operations, and conducting proxy wars. No American soldier took part in the war. It was all done by the Mujahideen, who comprised of Afghans, Arabs, Central Asians, Pakistanis, and radicals from many parts of the world. At the end of the war, Pakistan had set up a huge network of Madrasas and militant training camps run by Pak army regulars. The US protected Pakistan’s nuclear bomb development in order to keep its objectives in Afghanistan undisturbed. Simple denials cannot hide the truth.

I do not care if the US becomes second to another nation in terms of economy. The US has a very deep infrastructure and foundation that most countries in the world do not have. It is not going to simply disappear into oblivion. China’s growth has been one dimensional. To be a power, a country needs to develop in all areas that includes freedom and rights. Just having a lot of money will make it similar to Saudi Arabia.

You say you do not hate anyone. Everything does not have to be hate. One can have opinions and difference of opinions. You need to provide valid references to substantiate your claims. Otherwise you lose credibility. Claims are easy to make. Substantiating them is important for credibility.

Posted by KPSingh01 | Report as abusive
 

Rex

“Pakistan has never participated in a war against the Soviets, either by proxy or some other act.”
***Pakistanis will be might displeased with you. you are taking the major bullet point off Pakistan;s resume.

@China
You talk about India suppressing Kashmiris. I am sure you would also have seen some if not a lot of Indians who discuss the Kashmiris plight. Some say what you say –give freedom, others say status quo but no suppression of kashmiris. Then is the extreme which says to hell with kashmiris we will retain Kashmir whatever it takes. Seems like a nornal distribution of a free thinking society. OK this is about India and Indians, Kashmir and Kashmiris.

Let us have a look at China/Taiwan issue. A common Chinese does not give a damn to what Taiwanese want, they say missiles will fly out of Mainland and burn Taiwan if Taiwan cross any red line that China has. These are the views of many Chinese and trust me I have chatted with a lot of them. I was told by a group of Chinese guys whom I happened to meet at a conference last week and ask if they are from mainland or Taiwan. This made one very furious and said there is only one China. I said my interest was in geography not geopolitics for now. I told them that I have not seen a single Taiwanese in my life who says he/she is happy to merge with China. I was told to hell with Taiwanese, Taiwan land cannot be independent. One can just imagine what is going inside there. Of course I have to add here that India is not the sweetest place in the world. China has made progress and it is not all black and white. I am just comparing the population. Chinese are hardwired with information. A free thinking person cannot survive. They go to Satan Land.

@USA

You know that the US President Barack Obama is a black guy. From civil right movement 4 decades ago to having a black in the White house is no mean achievement. If I trust you, he is a Muslim too. Assuming you are right, then having a Muslim as the President after 9/11 is not a small thing. Then USA is not a bad place to be if you think about it.

Posted by rehmat | Report as abusive
 

@KPSingh
Wait, the USA is soon going to be rescued by the Tea Party! The USA of yesterday was a great country, today’s USA has no morals or ethics, a very weak manufacturing base and out of date infra structure. Its foreign policy has been biased for a considerable period, Bill Clinton tried to correct it but failed due to the pressure of the zionists and neoconservatives. For them the support for the security of Israel was paramount. Today the middle east is in shambles, causing a million dead Iraqis, says John Hopkins Institute. My estimates exceed this number. Does any one with a basic commonsense could imagine that more than a billion muslims in this world are ever going to forget the military adventure of the USA in muslim countries? Or do you believe that the Japanese have forgoten the bombing of the Hiroshima and Nagasaki, the USA leaders have todate not apologised for inflicting inhuman sufferings on the Japanese civilians? Turkey with the largest military in NATO is steadily moving away from the USA alliance. Perhaps the brains of the THINK TANK are advising the USA administration to get closer to India in case Pakistan follows suit and enter into a military alliance with Iran together with Turkey, afghanistan and cenral asian muslim countries ? One never knows, India has always liked playing the role of a maverick. People like you are the prime target to believe in the made up stories about Pakistan or the USA involvement in forcing the Soviets to withdraw their forces from Afghanistan.
Let us agree to disagree on our analysis and opinions.
Have fun.
Rex Minor

Posted by pakistan | Report as abusive
 

@Rehmat
I fully agree with your comments! So where does it take us, not a centimetre away from where we are!
@Pakistan
Has any pakistan leader claimed that they were involved in afghan resistance against the Soviets? The Pashtoon territory in Pakistan did take several millions of displaced afghan families. The UNO assisted the local officials in setting up temporary shelters. schools, or madrassas for the children to learn the basics about the religion, history, maths and languages etc. The first generation of talibans came from these camps who swept over the whole of Afghanistan in puting an end to the internal squabbes among the various tribes after the exit ofg the soviets.
@USA
You know, how a muslim baby is baptised when he is born. This tells me that he was a born a muslim; 25 percent of the americans also believe that he is a muslim. Is it a good thing or bad for the Americans or the muslim community in the USA to have a muslim of anglo/afro/american origin as their President. He was certainly brought up by his grand parents as a christian in the USA, apart from the time he spent in the muslim Indonesia. Moses was also raised in the house of Pharaho and only became the prophet of God later and was able to rescue his tribe from Egypt. Is Obama going to rescue the afro americans as well as his father fellow kenyans? I am not sure. Other afro-americans have failed miserably. The great Colin Powel, who lied before the world assembly and condi Rice who was the slave of the Bush family. My impression of Obama, before he became the President, was that he is an imposter. I still believe in this; it is not normal to have the bad one(George W) replacement(Obama) is a good one. incidently I was the strong suporter of Hillary Clinton, but due to her own mistakes Mr obama was able to pin her down on the Iraq war issue. Hillary clinton had caste a yes vote for the Bush war. I did send her e mails to warn her about the trap, but she was not upto the mark to match the Obama victory strategy. Mr Obama was the first one to declare in front of the jewish lobby that Jerusalem should remain the undivided city! And this act enabled him to gain the support from the jewish lobby, which was also the back bone of Hillary’s stregnth.
Mr Obama has since continued the policies of George W and worsen the USA standing in the muslim world. He sorrounded himself with clowns, said the four star general from Afghanistan, before departing from the battle field in Afghanistan. People are still being tortured in the USA Gitmo and in overseas basis as previously. In other words he has lost his credibility. is God almighty going to grant him the messiha power later on I very much doubt it. In my view to be a muslim is a virtue but not if the person does not adhere to the commandments of God. I have been to the USA several times and found people very friendly and generous, and my instinct told me not to accept the residency in the USA. No hard feelings folks, I have no regrets to make this decision.

Kashmir
I am against the use of military against the civilians in a country which claims to be a democracy. The Indian and Pakistan militaries are structured as colonial armies and need reforms. No sir, I could not live in the so called democratic India. No hard feelings folks, stop dreaming about the great Nation India is going to become one day. You guys are the best to judge.
@China
The great China is for the chinese people, no messing about. The chinese leaders taught us that the USA is a paper tiger. The USA were defeated in vietnam and korea simply because of the Chinese support for these countries. Chinese Govt. policy is not to interfere in the domestic affairs of other countries, this is different to the anglo saxons involvement in every country of the world. In their own time China is going to become an open society. Those who want to live in china should be aware that over a period of time they would be assimilated in the chiese community. I do not want to become a chinese.
I still admire their resilience and am sure that they are going to have the Taiwan issue peacefully and equaly remove the American hold on Japan and korea.
rex minor

Posted by pakistan | Report as abusive
 

Rex Minor: “Wait, the USA is soon going to be rescued by the Tea Party! The USA of yesterday was a great country, today’s USA has no morals or ethics, a very weak manufacturing base and out of date infra structure.”

The USA during cold war was a bad country. It staged coups, supported dictators, allowed genocide in many parts of the world to continue because they were on the opposite side, turned a blind eye to Pakistan’s Islamic bomb development, helped create radicalized Jihadists and so on.

The USA after 1990 has improved a lot, except for a short time under neocons where it acted like the old cold war power. It is they who took the US to the brink. But Clinton and Obama have done much better and the right thing. The USA of today knows its place in the world and is trying to stop dominating others. This takes time. So we will wait for it to happen.

“Its foreign policy has been biased for a considerable period, Bill Clinton tried to correct it but failed due to the pressure of the zionists and neoconservatives.”

US has been too nice to Pakistan, which is the country they should have taken on instead of Iraq. Pakistan has everything the neocons were accusing Saddam Hussein’s Iraq of. That was the only blunder on their part and they are paying the price for it. Obama has realized the mistake and he is correcting it and retargeting at the source of today’s terrorism – Pakistan. No wonder the country is exploding every day.

“For them the support for the security of Israel was paramount.”

Israel is important to them. So is Pakistan. We don’t know the reasons for either of them.

“Today the middle east is in shambles, causing a million dead Iraqis, says John Hopkins Institute. My estimates exceed this number.”

The rich middle eastern nations are raking money on American consumption. It is mostly those oil-less Middle Eastern countries that seem to be in conflict. More than the US, Saddam Hussein destroyed Iraq already. There was nothing left there for Americans to destroy. Wish the Americans had taken out Pakistan the same way in 2001.

“Does any one with a basic commonsense could imagine that more than a billion muslims in this world are ever going to forget the military adventure of the USA in muslim countries?”

Muslims have their own share of others’ blood if you look into history a bit more deeply. So let the pot not call the kettle black.

“Or do you believe that the Japanese have forgoten the bombing of the Hiroshima and Nagasaki, the USA leaders have todate not apologised for inflicting inhuman sufferings on the Japanese civilians?”

Japan had become an evil monster during WW II much like Pakistan today. They slaughtered people they conquered with utter ruthlessness. Now, Japanese are more concerned about China and North Korea than Americans. No country will destroy a nation in a war and then help them rebuild to wealth and prosperity like the US did. They did not leave Japan and Germany in rubble after WW II. They helped rebuild them and see where they are today. Who needs apology here?

“Turkey with the largest military in NATO is steadily moving away from the USA alliance.”

Turkish PM just made a visit to Pakistan. They have their own issues similar to Kashmir. They have two actually – Kurdish rebels and the Armenians. They need the US support to keep the world blind folded about those issues. So they are not switching to any alliance. They are desperately fighting to get accepted into the EU.

“Perhaps the brains of the THINK TANK are advising the USA administration to get closer to India in case Pakistan follows suit and enter into a military alliance with Iran together with Turkey, afghanistan and cenral asian muslim countries?”

No one wants to be with Pakistan today. You probably saw the response it got in terms of aid when the floods ravaged the country. Pakistan is looked at like a rogue state similar to North Korea. Afghans hate Pakistanis as well, what its military has done to them. Central Asian Muslim countries all want the US on their side because of Russia in their proximity. The world is not going to abandon the US.

“One never knows, India has always liked playing the role of a maverick. People like you are the prime target to believe in the made up stories about Pakistan or the USA involvement in forcing the Soviets to withdraw their forces from Afghanistan.”

There is a fool who claims that holocaust never happened and happens to be a President of Iran. If you assume real history to be made up, then I wonder what made up history is going to be called – history of Pakistan?
Let us agree to disagree on our analysis and opinions.”

Posted by KPSingh01 | Report as abusive
 

@Rex
Oh man you disappoint me once again. You watch so much TV and yet you did not notice India’s External Affairs Minister’s statement, “If Pakistan pulls back its Army from its side of Kashmir then India will replicate.” How can India pull back its Army when Pakistan Army is standing on its head all the time ready to invade (Kargil being latest example) India? Don’t you get such simple facts? And then you blame me for doubting your super intelligence.

@USA
As for economy we all make mistakes so did Americans. Free market policy is free for both honest and thieves equally. And when thieves like George W. hijack White House itself then one can imagine the chaos. But what Americans believe in is that with hard work anyone can do big. Americans hardly believe in luck and excessively in hard work and that has been their strength all these years. All the time it is not native Americans that do research in their land, mostly it is outsiders but big question is WHY everyone wants to do research in America because Americans value hard work more than any other nation in this world. And this hard work attitude can get them out of any mess. They may become number 2 for some time (may be 5-8 years) but no one can keep America out of race for too long. I think better sense will prevail and the great man Obama will stress heavily on research along with education in America to get them out this mess. America now needs a technology invention to get them through these rough waters. And there is already stress on upgrading the infrastructure in a big way. Other day I was watching on TV that the largest train company of USA has developed Engines that can run on water and if all goes well then they will completely remove their dependence on diesel. That’s what America is best at, leading technology innovation right from front.

@Europe
There are more banks in Europe than people. Eastern europe is synonymous to mafia today and that mafia from back door is controlled by none other than power houses in western europe so as to make black money from illegal arms trade. And add to it Euro. We all are seeing negative effects of Euro now which was falsely glorified in the first place. Europe is far far overrated than the reality.

@Pakistan/Afghanistan
What to say about people who give AK47 in hands of 5 year olds and then are proud of it as well…same things have been repeated again and again but its like “bhains ke aage been bajana”. Pakistan’s greatest enemy is Pakistan itself.

Posted by 777xxx777 | Report as abusive
 

Rex Minor said:

> What is your criteria man for a country to be praised?

and gave the following examples:

> Torture camps and prisons which have more foreigners and afro americans than the non blacks.

All right, one may not agree with you, but at least it’s an argument.

> A democracy where people being elected with fraud, George w example?

Another example that can be debated, but still a valid point.

> Liberal societies, declaring two man partnership as husband and wife and woman relation with another woman equal to that of husband and wife.

Now here’s the problem with your argument. You may not agree with another person’s views or another lifestyle. You may not understand what it is to be gay. But tolerance means being able to live and let live. If you cannot accept that other people have different values and lifestyles and instead seek to impose your value systems on them, there is clearly no tolerance here.

I have grown from being disgusted with the idea of homosexuality to being tolerant, even supportive, of gay rights.

Tolerance is more than just words. It is easy to demand that some country be more sensitive to the rights of some people we identify with. But how sensitive are we to the rights of people we *don’t* identify with? That’s the true test of humanism.

We need to change ourselves, and this is very hard. Nevertheless, we have to change if we want the world to be a gentler, more forgiving and more accommodating place.

Regards,
Ganesh Prasad

Posted by prasadgc | Report as abusive
 

@Ganesh Prasad
I have no problems either with tolerance or people’s life style and sexual orientation. But why try to devalue the rights of the non gay people( there we go, I have even found a new name for the normal people) by insisting to be accepted as husbands and wives. Why insist on joining the military and then allowing them to prctice openly their sexual life style.
The homosextual Dutch contingent of the UNO caused the death of over 7000 musslim lives in Bosnia, says the then NATO chief in a congressional hearing.
As a non-believer you probably do not care much about the Sodom and Gamohra example, nor on the wrath of God on Romans whose sexual orientation became limitless.
I follow the credo that the individual rights must not overstep the rights of other individuals. I am sorry if you believe in free for all from all society. I do not.
Rex Minor

Posted by pakistan | Report as abusive
 

@KPSingh
You appear to be obsessed with Pakistan and the Israelis are obsessed with Iran and Pakistan is obsessed with India, the big neighbour who has tasted once the blood of muslims and would certainly go for the kill if it could! Equaly, Pakistan declared in front of the UNO that they are going to develope and manufacture the atomic bomb to defend their country against India and they did.
Did I sum it up more or less the basis for your views.
Do you understand Persian language? I do!
Do you understand german language? I do!
How on earth one can understand other people if one does not speak their language.
The President of Iran has never said the words you have used and being propagated by the zionists again and again. This is the weak link in your analysis. There is saying among the Afghans and the Persians that if I can not use force against my enemy, at least I am able to kill my father.
The question should be phrased differently; Were arabs involved in the Holocaust?
Were the arab nations involved in the 1500 years of discrimination against jews in Europe, suffering from xenophobia to concentration camps?
If the answer is no, then how come the grand plan was developed to permanently get the jewish people out of europe and send them back to the place from where they came thousands of years before. Who was responsible for this plan? you are fond of reading books, perhaps you should read one of the books written by a European jew about their experiences in europe over this long period.
Many a times in history powerful rulers have underestimated the stregnth of their enemy and saw the destraction of their own empire. If you believe that there is a country today who can mess about with Pakistan, including the USA, Iran or North korea, then the surprise event is before us!
Let us leave it at that!

Rex Minor

Posted by pakistan | Report as abusive
 

@777

PAK/Afghan
The constitution of the USA states that the citizens hve the right to carry a weapon to defend themself, so I understand. Then what is wrong with Pashtoon families having an assault rifle in their homes? I was once in kentucky and the headlines in the paper were that the super markets now allow the carrying of weapons by the shoppers!
The result in the pashtoon land is that people are civil and respectful towards each other for fear of the reprisal. The foreign forces have now destabilised the entire territory jeopardising the lives of innocents.
Europe
I did not follow your story about the Euro, illegal arms trade etc. What is thepoint you are making? I do not believe that the Euro was over valued at any given time. We did observe the ups and downs of the dollar against the US dollar.
USA
I recall an Indian Nobel Prize laureate saying that in the future the Indians need not come to the USA for research work. No doubt there are stong private donars for the reaserach work in the USA and thertefore most prefer to be in the USA for their research work.
Innovations and new products as well as hard work is the story of the past good old days. Those who indulge in esthe industrial espionage had to end one day.
Rex Minor

PS Sorry, I am not able to decode the greek words.

Posted by pakistan | Report as abusive
 

Rex Minor:
“The constitution of the USA states that the citizens hve the right to carry a weapon to defend themself, so I understand”
*** NO, it is not only the citizens, anyone in the USA has the right to bear arms.

“I recall an Indian Nobel Prize laureate saying that in the future the Indians need not come to the USA for research work. No doubt there are stong private donars for the reaserach work in the USA and thertefore most prefer to be in the USA for their research work.
Innovations and new products as well as hard work is the story of the past good old days.”
***You don’t take someone’s statement literally. Perhaps he meant, learn in USA and go abck and apply in India.

Well leave India for a moment, USA welcomes Europeans every year and many of them turn into citizens of the USA. Ask yourself how many Americans become citizen of another country. USA has the edge in scientific research environment that no one in near future can come close to matching and this is their strength and that hinges on immigrants entering and integrating. No one is near matching the the scientific infrastructure that the USA has. This is a fact. One President’s misadventures cannot blow all this away.

Posted by rehmat | Report as abusive
 

@Rex
Damn with US constitution. I am not American and my views reflect the thesis based on Indian values. In India giving arms to a 5 year old is considered horrible. American civil culture is equally damn in case of weapons. Even I have watched news on TV that there happened shootings in some schools which was illegal as per US constitution. And if you think by keeping weapons one is being civilised then its very good that Indians are not that way civilised.

Euro is overvalued even now along with British pound sterling. All of these English and European fools are just heading for great debacle. Wait and watch. In your words, have patience.

It was not Greek, it was Hindi derived from Sanskrit. BTW did you find out yet what is the root of Germanic??

“the big neighbour who has tasted once the blood of muslims and would certainly go for the kill if it could!”

Thats your problem. You are only concerned of muslims suffering and not of those who suffer because of muslims. It were not only muslims who were killed there were hindus too who were killed by Pakistan in equal numbers. But Pakistan killing hindus is legal because Pakistanis are so called believers….right???

“then how come the grand plan was developed to permanently get the jewish people out of europe and send them back to the place from where they came thousands of years before. Who was responsible for this plan?”

Great Britain….what is there to know. But what is wrong with it either?

“I recall an Indian Nobel Prize laureate saying that in the future the Indians need not come to the USA for research work.”

10000 years in future may be but not in 1000 years future. And hard work never dies.

“If you believe that there is a country today who can mess about with Pakistan, including the USA, Iran or North korea, then the surprise event is before us!”

I remember in one post u spoiled my taunt by telling that Pakistan has no “balls” to launch nukes at great Satan. And now you say this. And in the end it is 777 who is confused…right??

You seems to be one of those several muslims who believe blindly in religion and see Arabs as traitor of Islam and therefore Pakistan is being looked upon as saviour of Islam with its Islamic bomb. Funny though!!

Posted by 777xxx777 | Report as abusive
 

Rex

BTW, Chinese, whom you admire a lot, make one of the major work force (not just hands, brains as well) in scientific research in a number of areas. Add to that the Indians, which you do not know much about as you say so I did not put them together with Chinese, whom you know.

Posted by rehmat | Report as abusive
 

Rex,

“and Pakistan is obsessed with India, the big neighbour who has tasted once the blood of muslims and would certainly go for the kill if it could! Equaly, Pakistan declared in front of the UNO that they are going to develope and manufacture the atomic bomb to defend their country against India and they did”

***you make India sound like some Vampire! Can you for once stop this Hindu/Muslim thing? Mostly it is unnecessary and religion is not the reason but you make it sound that way.

Even if there were aliens, Indian govt would have done the same thing.If you are right, then why have we have not seen 100,000 Indian Muslims dead (not Kashmiris). WE sure have seen 1 million Muslims killed in East Pakistan by W. Pakistan. Again, Pakistan would have done the same thing against anyone.

Posted by rehmat | Report as abusive
 

Rex Minor,

You need to seek counseling. By reading your words here, I can sense some very deep emotional turmoil in your head. This will cascade out of control and victimize you in the long run if you keep building more imaginative stories in your head. You can be manipulated easily by vested groups into executing their objectives. You do not sound normal. My sincere sympathies for you. I do not know how many more are there like you around in Pakistan and elsewhere.

Kanwaljit P Singh

Posted by KPSingh01 | Report as abusive
 

Let us cut it out guys. You are now adopting the mentality of a mob.
Rex Minor

Posted by pakistan | Report as abusive
 

In the world of satellite dishes, the crowd with satellite dishes keep harping about Zionists and the zionist conspiracy. I do not believe there is a large boogey man out there colluding against Islam.

I beg to ask any body here, who are the zionists that some muslims keep harping about, that is trying to destroy Islam?

Please quit hiding being these obsessive titles used by madmen like Ahmadinejad, please give names, we are curious.

Posted by G-W | Report as abusive
 

@Rex Minor,

The single biggest issue, we keep seeing Pakistan deny, is the 1971 systematic, mass slaughter genocide of approx. 2.5million Hindus and 500,000 muslims, by the Muslim West Pakistani Punjabi Army.

I find it morally reprehensible that Pakistan, as a nation, and its people are collective holocaust deny-ers.
There are too many people who go eerily silent on this issue and the issue will never go to rest and keep haunting the Pakistani psyche, until it is publically admitted and appropriate apologies and reparations to the Bengali people made.

Even Germany has owned upto the Jewish Genocide and commemorate it yearly so the that the world can never forget.

Is the Pakistani psyche so damaged that they cannot admit it, because they believe it is not worth mentioning in their own history books, or is there too much collective national shame to admit such a horrible act.

I am still wondering when Pakistan will come clean on the 1971 Mass genocide, which has been well chronicled.

A part of me still feels that Pakistan will continue to suffer in the many ways it has been, until it comes clean and faces the misdeeds of its past against Humanity.

Until there is a national recognition and admission of this event, Pakistani history will continue to be dogged by this bloody stain.

Posted by G-W | Report as abusive
 

@Rex, others,

BTW, with regards to China, India WILL surpass China as a world superpower in time.

The 3 major differences in China and India are

1) Demographics-India has a burgeon young population, with energy and ideas, unlike China with millions of aging drones, an aging population demographic made much worse by the limiting one child law.

2) Democracy-Chinese communists are standing on a boiling pot, trying to keep the lid closed, while Indian minorities can participate in the political process and vent their frustrations and get proper representation, as long as they do not dabble with terrorism and prompt army crackdown.

3) Ideas and Capital- In China, all of this is state controlled and good ideas are only copied from others and creativity is killed. India has many entrepreneurial billionaires and ideas travel fast in India, as well as capital, because it is not controlled by the state, but the market.

Most economists worldwide agree, that India will surpass China by 2020-2030.

Many satellite nations are contemplating in joining in India’s home grown success.

Chinese fear true, legitimate success and true legitimate democracy. Their biggest fear is a happy, united, prosperous S.Asia, that is peaceful, progressive and unified.

Is it any wonder, why the Chinese are working hard to keep encircle and destroy India’s relationships, anyway they can and continue to use the Pakistani’s?

Is it any wonder why they fear one smiling man in a orange robe and a pair of glasses???

Posted by G-W | Report as abusive
 

@Rehmat
Is this true that one million bengalis were killed by the Pakistan military? How come it did not get reported in Europe. I have always despised the loss of life of a singlecivilian by the military. I know about the massacre of sikhs by the Indian military, the sikh community seeking asylum narrated the stories, but I have never heard from the bengalis also seeking asylum, the scale of this horror, one million lives! O’h my God, I simply do not believe this. You are right, religion is not the cause but unfortunately between India and Pakistan have always become the end product.
I need a break!
Rex Minor

Posted by pakistan | Report as abusive
 

@Rehmat/GW
GW commentry is a bit confusing for me. Could you please help, he is talking about three million victims now?

Rex Minor

Posted by pakistan | Report as abusive
 

@GW
Your views about China versus India and the forecas:
1. Indian burgeon young versus chinese aging drones coupled with chinas one policy is one up for India.
2. Indian democracy (backed up by the military) versus Chinese communism and capitalism mix(backed up by military), I am not sure. I believe that the chinese have the advantage having military strictly under the control of the Chinese communist party/politburo. A democracy cannot fully control the use of military against the civilians. Indian neighbour Pakistan is the example, the use of the military by the democratically elected Govt. resulted in the military take over of the Govt. by the military. india has escaped this fate simply because the military has so far been used against the non hindus.
3. The jury is still out, the systems used in each country have so far been successful.

Ther are other salient factors, which play a greater role for a country to become a super power.
Neither India nor China are fully developed Nations: China needs to imrove the integration of minority communities and the Taiwanese economy. India is far behind in this endeavour, concentrating more on the infra structure and hoping, like the Americans, the private investors and the large companies would create employment opportunities and this should take care of the people’s problems. In their view the social and the economic needs of the people are interlinked.
Leadership plays a major role for a Nation. The Chinese Communist system has assured a steady development of party leaders. This has been in my opinion the single most important factor of making China the most independent and powerful country in the world reaching the satus of the second biggest economy in the capitalist system. Indian leadership does not have the track record of continuity and have hitherto relied too much on capitalism and the economic growth only. Is this going to handicap India in its progress, only time is going to tell.
But this machiavellian style of politics mighjt be considered a norm in the anglosaxon political arena, it provides no long term advantage for non european country. The smiling man in the orange robe should be told that Indians want to work now and he needs to work as well, no more the doll money!

Sorry, if my comments do not favour India over China. I have been following the progress of China for donkey years and have seen how hard working the chinese people are, but one never knows may be India in twenty years is different and might even surpass the USA.
Rex Minor
Ps
Europe is also aiming to become the next super power in the next 20-30 years time. Competitionis healthy.

Posted by pakistan | Report as abusive
 

Rex Minor:
“@Rehmat/GW
GW commentry is a bit confusing for me. Could you please help, he is talking about three million victims now?”
***Statement from me will not convince you although I have already expressed my views. The # that I have seen ranges from 1-3million and I pick the least which is 1 million if you go back and read my post. Let me get back to you, no promise however.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

GW:
This superpower thing is not important. Really. Prosperity for all is more important. Superpower status is much easier as you believe than eradication of poverty, illiteracy, inter-religious tensions. Not doing so will create increasing internal problems (see Maoism), which will drag India in every which way. Get solution for Kashmir aggressively and solve outstanding problems with neighbors. Latter is tougher especially with China although India has realized this as a problem area and is improving relations in the neighborhood.

I agree with following statement
“Chinese fear true, legitimate success and true legitimate democracy. Their biggest fear is a happy, united, prosperous S.Asia, that is peaceful, progressive and unified.”

Posted by rehmat | Report as abusive
 

Rex Minor,

Kindly do not pretend to be naive. Here is a link for you about East Pakistan.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1971_Bangla desh_atrocities

Please refer to the Wiki site for general and relatively authentic information. It has contributions from all over the world.

Posted by KPSingh01 | Report as abusive
 

> But why try to devalue the rights of the non gay people [...] I follow the credo that the individual rights must not overstep the rights of other individuals. I am sorry if you believe in free for all from all society. I do not.

Your definition of overstepping the rights of other people seems to be that someone is even allowed to practise what other people disapprove of. But what you refer to as a ‘free for all’ is the very essence of democracy – Live and let live. As long as you are not forced to live by another person’s rules, you should be OK with them doing what they please. But you seem to want everyone to live according to the rules *you* think are right.

Thankfully, the world doesn’t work that way.

By the way, what do you, as a Muslim in Germany, think of your Chancellor Angela Merkel’s call to Muslims to integrate better into German society?

Regards,
Ganesh Prasad

Posted by prasadgc | Report as abusive
 

Kanwaljit,

Good to know your name at last! KP Singh seems too formal now :-). Maybe KP if you prefer.

Regards,
Ganesh Prasad

Posted by prasadgc | Report as abusive
 

Rex Minor wrote:
> As a non-believer you probably do not care much [...]

I am a believer. I believe in many values. Ethical principles are important to me.

Your definition of believer is narrower.

Perhaps you do not intend to cause offence, but these discriminatory terms like non-believer are offensive. We are all human beings with equal rights to live upon this planet. “Believers” are not entitled to special privileges or special treatment. When you admit these distinctions, you start to think that ill-treatment of believers by non-believers is bad, while similar ill-treatment of non-believers by believers is OK. Please have the courage to change this mindset.

Regards,
Ganesh Prasad

Posted by prasadgc | Report as abusive
 

@KP
“Please refer to the Wiki site for general and relatively authentic information. It has contributions from all over the world”

Ohh come on KP man don’t you know internet, media, India, and even this reuters blog are all hijacked by zionists…right Rex???

I don’t think Rex is against India. He is more of pro-Pakistan and just spreading lies of Pakistan Army which includes portraying India as vampire and China as hero. So nothing new in that. He can continue to do so. As I said he seems to be one of those several muslims who believe blindly in religion and look upon Pakistan as saviour of Islam with its Islamic bomb.

@Rex
BTW what would you say to German government telling muslims to integrate better with Germans; which effectively means shed away your false victim-hood and participate in their local culture as well. So Germany is not a nation then, that it calls for intermixing of cultures..right? Or may be You need to lead a Islamic students movement (Taliban) in Germany and invite pashtoons, the so called greatest warriors, to save and establish Islam all over Germany. And 50 years after that the German pashtoons destroy all power centres around them…yes? What say…good idea..huh?

Posted by 777xxx777 | Report as abusive
 

Ganesh: “Good to know your name at last! KP Singh seems too formal now . Maybe KP if you prefer.”

It is our custom to use the full name when offering sincere sympathy or condolence or congratulatory words. Hence I had used my full name. I can clearly tell that Rex Minor is suffering from serious trauma. We need to be sympathetic to him.

KP Singh

Posted by KPSingh01 | Report as abusive
 

@ Rex Minor,

“Is this true that one million bengalis were killed by the Pakistan military? How come it did not get reported in Europe…. know about the massacre of sikhs by the Indian military, the sikh community seeking asylum narrated the stories, but I have never heard from the bengalis also seeking asylum, the scale of this horror, one million lives! O’h my God, I simply do not believe this…….I need a break!” Rex Minor

Believe it, even if you weren’t born then. Here are a list of sites which may open your eyes, if indeed you haven’t heard of events there, which I greatly doubt.

‘Case Study:
Genocide in Bangladesh, 1971
The number of dead in Bangladesh in 1971 was almost certainly well into seven figures. It was one of the worst genocides of the World War II era, outstripping Rwanda (800,000 killed) and probably surpassing even Indonesia (1 million to 1.5 million killed in 1965-66). As R.J. Rummel writes,

The human death toll over only 267 days was incredible. Just to give for five out of the eighteen districts some incomplete statistics published in Bangladesh newspapers or by an Inquiry Committee, the Pakistani army killed 100,000 Bengalis in Dacca, 150,000 in Khulna, 75,000 in Jessore, 95,000 in Comilla, and 100,000 in Chittagong. For eighteen districts the total is 1,247,000 killed. This was an incomplete toll, and to this day no one really knows the final toll. Some estimates of the democide [Rummel's "death by government"] are much lower — one is of 300,000 dead — but most range from 1 million to 3 million. … The Pakistani army and allied paramilitary groups killed about one out of every sixty-one people in Pakistan overall; one out of every twenty-five Bengalis, Hindus, and others in East Pakistan. If the rate of killing for all of Pakistan is annualized over the years the Yahya martial law regime was in power (March 1969 to December 1971), then this one regime was more lethal than that of the Soviet Union, China under the communists, or Japan under the military (even through World War II). (Rummel, Death By Government, p. 331.)’ Compiled by John Adam.

Suggest you read the whole article, I have only quoted the non-nauseating and less horrifying portions.
http://www.gendercide.org/case_banglades h.html

2. Eyewitness Accounts: Genocide in Bangladesh

by Rounaq Jahan

in Samuel Totten, et al.
Century of Genocide: Eyewitness Accounts and Critical Views
New York: Garland Publishing, 1997
Chapter 10, pp. 291-316
http://www.globalwebpost.com/genocide197 1/witness/rounaq.htm

3. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1971_Bangla desh_atrocities

4.http://www.kean.edu/~bgsg/Conference09  /Papers_and_Presentations/Zia_Ahmed_Pre sentation_Bangladesh%20Genocide%20in%201 971.pdf

Genocide
• On February 22, 1971 the generals in West Pakistan took a decision to crush the Awami League and its supporters.
• It was recognized from the first that a
campaign of genocide would be
necessary to eradicate the threat: “Kill three million of them,” said President Yahya Khan at the February conference, “and the rest will eat out of our hands.” (Robert Payne, Massacre [1972], p. 50.)

This is just a sample list, though I doubt it will convince you, because there is sure to be some zionist, hindu, macabre link to all of them in your eyes.

Anyway have a nice long break – pleasant reading.

And in case you decide to respond, please keep the discussion to what you said and not drag it off to some unrelated hypothetical issue. The issue here is the massacres in Bangladesh which you claim to be ignorant of.

Posted by DaraIndia | Report as abusive
 

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