Pakistan and the narrative of shame

November 11, 2010

lahore mosqueManan Ahmed has a piece up at Chapati Mystery which should be essential reading for anyone interested in the current state of Pakistan and its prickly relations with the west, particularly with the United States. 

Starting off with a re-reading of Salman Rushdie’s “Shame” (one of those books that I expect many of us read in our youth without properly understanding) he returns to the original inspiration for the title – “Peccavi“, Latin for “I have sinned.”   According to an apocryphal, yet widely believed, story of British imperial conquest, “Peccavi” is the message that General Charles Napier sent back to Calcutta when he conquered Sindh (nowadays one of the provinces of Pakistan) in the 19th century. He then discusses how the modern-day view of Pakistan is defined by shame, or by a perception which over-simplifies it to  “Peccavistan”.

“Peccavistan is just as real as Pakistan,” he writes. ”It is a bundling, an explaining, a framing, a means of de-mystification when the mystery is itself a reflection of paucity of sources not of intelligibility. Peccavistan sells because Peccavistan takes away complexity, it reduces our mental and emotional commitments to Pakistan. Pakistan, though 180 million strong, ravaged by floods and suicide bombers, continues to carry on. Apocryphally speaking.”

Do read the whole thing, but his description is familiar.  I’ve shortened some paragraphs below to illustrate the point, in ways I hope do not do too much disservice to his text:

“In Napier’s view, a particular violence and terror haunted the valleys of Sindh. It was the Muslim menace in power … His civilizing mission, for which he invented a casus belli, was to counter this terror and violence … This violence which was projected onto and into the Sindhis by the colonial voice masked, however, the colonial violence itself … So even though Napier, who landed in Sindh in 1841, saw terror and violence everywhere, he failed to see it as his own violence.”

There is a lot to think about there. Among them, is what it tells you about  the impact of the U.S. decision to intensify its drone bombing campaign on Pakistan’s tribal areas, usually presented as a way of saving Pakistan from itself. These drone attacks are believed to be carried out with the complicity of the Pakistan government and the army.

Whether the drone bombings are appropriate or not, the narrative that resonates in Pakistan is one of shame – the notion that the government is too weak to stop a foreign country firing missiles into its own sovereign territory.  You can twist the knife on that — and people do – by making that shame more painful by dint of official collaboration. Then - and I would stress I am not defending this view but rather trying to explain it – you are a short step away from the argument used by Islamist militants and their sympathisers that Pakistan needs to be ”saved” from its rulers, if necessary by force.

One of the other points from Peccavistan is to understand how far Pakistan is defined by history. The United States post 9/11 has been notoriously short on its understanding of history. And while it can be misleading to see everything through the lens of colonial rule, you probably have to reconcile those two ways of thinking if Pakistan and the United States are ever to work out how to understand each other.

Comments

Singh

“I am glad Khalistan did not happen. Otherwise there will be another country being manipulated by Pakistan’s military with its barrel pointed at Chandigarh.”

***Khalistan was a close call. Pakistan almost did it. India should still be careful. As long as Sikh community in Punjab is satisfied, nothing will happen. Indian govt should be careful. More than half the problem is created at home, foreign hands just use the opportunity: Kashmir and Punjab/India (Pak took advantage), and Bangladesh (India took advantage).

Posted by rehmat | Report as abusive
 

Umairpk: “Here you go again, it is very intriguing to see you been a sikh and so much paranoid about Pakistan that now you think that East Pakistan was created out of India’s Northeast by the British deliberately to later manipulate India’s internal situation. This is too much of a thesis, I don’t get it maybe you can be right.”

Global geo-politics has far reaching effects. Everything is not spelled out in the open. The ulterior motives behind many moves made are always hidden and on the exterior things have a different appearance. I have read that the Apartheid regime in South Africa was driven and sustained by one diamond company – De Beers. They needed access to the diamonds and the labor to go with it. Even now people talk about Oil pipelines being the main reason for all the issues in Afghanistan. All the talk of freedom and rights by the American politicians during the cold war era were driven by business interests more than anything else. You can read the trend to understand this. If communists take over many parts of the world, that market is closed for business. How can you run multi-national enterprise if state run enterprises are selling out dated items at discount price in those countries? Communism itself was only a principle. Wherever communist governments ruled, it was basically dictatorships or autocracies. Communism kept everything poor and backward and those in power could keep it for as long as they wished. You have watch the trends. The same US that preached rights and freedom to people, supported military coups, dictatorships, genocidal regimes and destroyed normal nations. What is preached and what is followed are not consistent. Therefore the underlying cause is deep and not visible. Religion, ethnicity, language, race etc are the means by which control is exercised from afar. These are the fuel used to turn smoke into conflagration.

The British were adept at turning local issues for their political gains and control. If you see it from this angle, you will realize that selfish leaders made the most of it by becoming the agents for these powers. Let me know what your opinion of Slobodan Milasovich (sic) is.

“BTW, did you read the book by Jaswant Singh regarding Jinnah in which he blamed some of leaders from Indian (hindu ) congress side of alienating Jinnah which led to creation of Pakistan. Don’t blame everyhting on the British man, come on!”

Jaswant Singh is a politician and he will sell his mother if he can gain from it. This is the guy who flew to Afghanistan and handed off two of the worst terrorists to the Taliban. Even Advani has praised Jinnah. That does not mean anything.

Congress party started in the 1860s after the Sepoy Mutiny by Alan Octavian Hume and a few other Indians. Mr. Jinnah was a member of that party as well and went up the ranks. There is nothing wrong in political rivalry. Everyone thinks he is the leader and he knows how to do things. If Jinnah was right in thinking that way, so was Nehru. This does not mean that Jinnah had to go off tangentially and form a movement for separation. He just looked around and picked up the Muslim cause and the British exploited it. Political alienation is normal. Leaders fight each other within a system. They form their own parties. But forming a nation is a big thing. One has to think of the consequences of such actions in the long run. Selfish politicians do not care about those things. They let things burn if that helps to their advantage. Mr. Advani is one such leader. He used anti-Muslim psyche to burn the country and gained from it short term. Now he is on a political decline as the Indian voter has rejected such moves.

You need to see the broader picture and see what you can do to avoid being used as a pawn.

Posted by KPSingh01 | Report as abusive
 

rehmat: “Khalistan was a close call. Pakistan almost did it. India should still be careful. As long as Sikh community in Punjab is satisfied, nothing will happen. Indian govt should be careful. More than half the problem is created at home, foreign hands just use the opportunity: Kashmir and Punjab/India (Pak took advantage), and Bangladesh (India took advantage).”

Therefore it is not religion or ethnicity or language or race. It is political motive to gain control. Emotional issues are manipulated by vested groups to gain advantage. Therefore it does not justify forming nations based on religion or ethnicity or language or whatever. Because human beings will divide further. The glorious Islamic paradise of Pakistan, created for the welfare of all Muslims, had the worst genocide in South Asia when language became the bone of contention. Now Shias are getting attacked. Ahmadis are getting killed. Sufi followers are being attacked. Where is Islam in any of these? Look at where one man’s power ambitions and the geo-political machinations of a past empire have led to.

Posted by KPSingh01 | Report as abusive
 

Singh

“Therefore it is not religion or ethnicity or language or race. It is political motive to gain control. Emotional issues are manipulated by vested groups to gain advantage. Therefore it does not justify forming nations based on religion or ethnicity or language or whatever.”
***I fully agree with you. Religion can be used to whip people into frenzy making them blind to reason or it can help people live a normal peaceful life.

Jinnah can be credited for the conception, not upbringing, of Pakistan. Pakistan still could have become a different country than what it is now.

Posted by rehmat | Report as abusive
 

rehmat: “Jinnah can be credited for the conception, not upbringing, of Pakistan.”

I would rank Jinnah along with Advani, Bal Thackeray, Narendra Modi, some of the Dravidian leaders in the South, Slobodan Milosevic of Serbia etc. These are self serving, power crazy politicians who can manipulate emotions to their advantage and turn people against each other. Most of the time their desires lead to massive scale of violence and unrest using which they leverage their opponents. The sub-continent is one of the worst hot spots on earth because of Jinnah’s legacy.

I would never credit these politicians with anything.

Posted by KPSingh01 | Report as abusive
 

@GW
No country in the world has nuclear weapons for a retaliatory strike against another nuclear armed state. Both India and Pakistan possess the nukes for first strike only, it would be impossible for any one to be able to retaliate! Did you get it ? Not yet, o’k let us try again;

During the cuban crisis both the yanks and the soviets were on the brink to simultaneously attack each other cities, thereby eliminating each other from the map. Did you get it, if not please let me rest and tell why is it so difficult for many of you not to understand simple and straightward lines and start a debate. Has the Indian and pakistan Govtsd. not informed its citizens about the consequences of carrying such a large stock of nuclier armed missiles.

These tools act as a deterrant against the non nuclear states, but not agaionst the nuclear armed countries. Did you get it now, if not then please let me have a pause, I am very tired now.

Rex Minor

Posted by pakistan | Report as abusive
 

@Singh,

I still remember those days in the 80′s, even some of my personal Sikh friends, I have known since childhood were acting in a aggressive tone towards me, because that is what their parents were discussing at the dinner table.

It was extremely racist in nature, as I had faced racism from white people, but never had I thought in a million years, from my own people, even though I was hindu, I did not see myself as different than Sikh.

I was jeered at, insulted and threatened by my childhood Sikh friends, then the carpet got pulled out from under them, as the corruption, filth and lies of the Khalistan movement started to reveal themselves one by one, including the Air India bxmbing and much of the Sikh community was left gasping at how the wind was taken out of the sails. It was apparent that many Sikhs were deceived by the opportunistic nature of the Khalistan movement, as many so-called freedom fighters were getting rich off this, taking much gold and money from the temples. Some of the temples were even infiltrated by the intelligence agencies by white caucasians posing as Sikh converts. It started to become clearer and clear that the Sikh religion was being hijacked by an outside force, bent not so much on helping the Sikhs, but using a filthy few Sikhs against their own people, in an unsuspecting manner. Many believed their lies and blindly followed and when the curtain was lifted, they could not believe the depth of the lies and disappointment that they felt. Most mainstream Sikhs do not ascribe to this separatist thinking anymore, as most Sikhs today are in a different place, both socially and economically.

In retrospect, I have never kept any negative feelings towards my friends. Friends can make mistakes and we should always forgive. For many things that were said and happened, friendship is much stronger than all of that. Sikhs are the lions of India and will never fall prey ever again to opportunists from Pakistan who seek to use and whore them in this manner. Sikhs have held their head high and moved on and so has the rest of India, lest we forget the horrible days of Operation blue star, which should be a reminder that Democracy and civility is precious and those that do not have it, always try to destroy it and bring innnocent people down in the process. The indian government has also come a long way, as we now have a Sikh Prime Minister.

@Rex Minor, sorry if it dissappoints you that India is becoming stronger as a union, you seem perturbed that so many millions of people are getting along, it really seems to rattle you. Perhaps you should leave your comfortable home in germany and live with the Pashtoons, you won’t survive a week in Afghanistan.

Posted by G-W | Report as abusive
 

pakistan: “No country in the world has nuclear weapons for a retaliatory strike against another nuclear armed state. Both India and Pakistan possess the nukes for first strike only, it would be impossible for any one to be able to retaliate!”

How do you come up with brilliant theories like these? Nuclear armed states can strike each other. They have worked out many scenarios about command structures during a nuclear confrontation. And missiles and fighter planes are kept ready and alert at all times. Satellites are watching every move. Any first strike can be met with retaliation within minutes. Of course it won’t stop with just one exchange. It will continue on until all supplies are exhausted. At that time, it will all depend upon how much of land mass can survive and recover from radiation hazard. It all depends on who makes the first move. In the case of India and Pakistan, both nations are watching each others’ moves. The only worry many nations have with Pakistan now is the chance of the nukes falling into the wrong hands. A civil war inside Pakistan can increase the potential for that. The militancy inside Pakistan seems to be directed towards that. Within a couple of years, if things do not go checked, Pakistan will be in a terrible internal turmoil. Militancy that was confined to its NW provinces has come as far South as Karachi. It is only a matter of time before things get out of control. With increased pressure from the US, blow back will only intensify. You can comfortably sit in Germany and watch all the developments.

Posted by KPSingh01 | Report as abusive
 

@GW
If India can get out of the babylonian prison that its leaders have built for them, it would be good for the region. On the other hand if India is happy in the current situation, then good luck India, continue your progress and be happy. Do not bother your head trying to know my identity.

Rex Minor

Posted by pakistan | Report as abusive
 

RexMinor/Pakistan:

“@GW
No country in the world has nuclear weapons for a retaliatory strike against another nuclear armed state. Both India and Pakistan possess the nukes for first strike only, it would be impossible for any one to be able to retaliate! Did you get it ? Not yet, o’k let us try again;”

–>The straight forward line, Rex Minor, is that once one has nxclear weapons, they have a duty to act responsibly, not use nxclear weapons as a heel to foment assymetrical wars and terrorism on others. Pakistan never needed nxclear weapons against India, in the pre-nuclear age, between the two the many wars between Pakistan, and India, India had every chance to elevate the conflict and occupy Pakistan and even take land, if it wished, but India, always chose to withdraw, accept surrenders and return POW’s unharmed.

India has nxclear deterant against the Chinese, not against Pakistan. India has never had any plans, to attack or takeover Pakistan, why would we want to inherit a population that is unproductive and hateful towards us? there is not much in Pakistan that INdians would want.

Pakistan has made the nxkes out of its own damaged and bruised ego and as a tool to back its aggressive aposturing towards India, in the hopes of stealing and clawing land away from India.

Everytime Pakistan starts losing the wars, that they start, you know how it always ends and will end?…..they start assembling their warheads onto rockets as a parting gift, if they lose wars that they start…You seem to be an advocate of criminal and bad behavior.

The U.S. pre-emptively nxked the Japanese, because the war planners ran the numbers and in a conventional ground war, the loss of U.S. Army lives would have run in the several hundreds of thousands and the U.S. public would not have stood for that. The Imperial Japanese of that time would have kept on fighting, despite the huge loss of life that they would have suffered as well.

Pakistan’s nxkes are developed out of a sense of entitlement to hurt India for dismembering Pakistan in 1971, during which Pakistan genocided 3 million humans.

Pakistani lovers have extremely short memories and never acknowledge that Pakistan was the starter of each and every war with India, and the loser. To pacify the shame and battered ego, it was necessary Bhutto felt to have the A-bxmb. Ever since then, the world, India have suffered at the hands of Pakistani terrorism, whether it was state sponsored or not, that is the final fact.

Then 911 happened, hashed on Pakistani soil. Pakistan is not delivering and aiding and abetting those that kill NATO soldiers, based on recent allegations by Richard Holbrooke on CNN GPS.

So, you tell me again, what pre-emptive nxclear action should Pakistan be taking and against what enemy, please clarify your position, you did a good job befuddling and diverting the issue and not answering, please this time answer, I grow tired of trying you hold you accountable to your words, it is like nailing jelly to the wall.

Posted by G-W | Report as abusive
 

@KPSingh
I reckon we have amply dealt with the nxke issue. Do not take note of the hollywood films or the american propaganda. They are already in dangerous hands on a standby basis!

The worrisome thing is the proliferation of material from the USA and Russia and the mishaps occurances in the nuclear plants for so called peaceful energy. This could prove to be very dangerous. we have lived with the after effects of chernobyl. Not to forget the disposal of the nxlear waste.
You seem to have the tendency to slip over the propaganda track of the radicals etc. etc.

Radicals do not use high tech arms, they just do a force aeroplane landing instead. Ummah is the most dangerous weapon since faceless radicals from places as far as chechenia and Indinesia could get involved in a conflict.
I can not recognise any unforeseen occurance in pakistan. I had forecast that if the PA does not stop its intrusion in the Pashtoon land, then, in the future no Govt. could rule the country without the blessing of the Pashtoons. This is precisely the situation. The Pashtoon facit, an eye for an eye, you know the ritual.

Rex Minor

Posted by pakistan | Report as abusive
 

@GW
Then do not try to nail the jelly. And live with your horor dreams and false accusations involving third countries. You are not commenting, but simply using this blog for false accusations.

Find some one else for your diabolics.

Rex Minor

Posted by pakistan | Report as abusive
 

Rex;
“Radicals do not use high tech arms, they just do a force aeroplane landing instead. Ummah is the most dangerous weapon since faceless radicals from places as far as chechenia and Indinesia could get involved in a conflict.”

***If those who forced plane into a building are part of Ummah (And what a name you gave for Ummah, a “weapon”!!) You agree with that “humble” FOX news talk show host “Bill o Reilly” who says the same thing and gets into trouble, he deserved.

Posted by rehmat | Report as abusive
 

pakistan: “I reckon we have amply dealt with the nxke issue. Do not take note of the hollywood films or the american propaganda. They are already in dangerous hands on a standby basis!”

Hollywood films on dangerous hands? Are you making any sense? What do Hollywood films have to do with nukes?

“The worrisome thing is the proliferation of material from the USA and Russia and the mishaps occurances in the nuclear plants for so called peaceful energy. This could prove to be very dangerous.”

The US and Russia, along with UK, France and Japan have one of the best nuclear safety and control systems in the world today. I don’t know about you, but the rest of the world is worried about nuke material and technology slipping out and spreading from countries like China, Pakistan, Iran and North Korea.

“we have lived with the after effects of chernobyl. Not to forget the disposal of the nxlear waste.
You seem to have the tendency to slip over the propaganda track of the radicals etc. etc.”

Chernobyl was an accident. No terrorist went in there and blew the place up. Accidents happen all the time – ships sink, planes crash, buildings collapse and dams break. We are not talking about such accidents. We are talking about criminals with deliberate intent getting access to dangerous matter like nukes.

“Radicals do not use high tech arms, they just do a force aeroplane landing instead.”

Isn’t a plane a hitech machine? Radicals learned how to fly a plane and then flew four of them towards targets in the US.

“Ummah is the most dangerous weapon since faceless radicals from places as far as chechenia and Indinesia could get involved in a conflict.”

In other words Ummah in today’s context can be classified as a terrorist network based on your description above.

“I can not recognise any unforeseen occurance in pakistan.”

Key nuke scientists working at Kahuta plant disappeared for some time and had made pilgrimage to meet with Osama Bin Laden prior to 9/11. When AQ Khan was singled out as the chief of nuclear proliferation, these scientists were placed under house arrest by the Pak military in the guise of questioning them. Reference – Nuclear Deception by Adrian Levy and Catherine Clark. A lot of things have happened about which you have no knowledge or awareness.

“I had forecast that if the PA does not stop its intrusion in the Pashtoon land, then, in the future no Govt. could rule the country without the blessing of the Pashtoons. This is precisely the situation. The Pashtoon facit, an eye for an eye, you know the ritual.”

Pashtuns are on Pak military’s dole. They rely on Pak military and the ISI for all the weapons logistics and training. It is the Pak military that controls them and not the other way around. And Pashtun land is divided between Afghanistan and Pakistan by an imaginary line drawn by a British guy in 1893. If your Pashtuns are so mighty, I wonder why they are following that division even now.

Posted by KPSingh01 | Report as abusive
 

“@GW
Then do not try to nail the jelly. And live with your horor dreams and false accusations involving third countries. You are not commenting, but simply using this blog for false accusations.

Find some one else for your diabolics.

Rex Minor”

–>You have tried to dodge the questions again and again. You made the original comments, now you have trouble explaining them and are resorting to personalized characterizations.

You made the initial assertion that Pakistan should use its arsenal for pre-emptive actions of some kind, and now that i have called you out on it, you are yellow and backpedaling.

I apologize if calling you out and singling you out on your disturbing comments, constitutes me as being “diabolical” or “accusatory”. In this regard, you fit right in, if you were a Paksitani Statesmen, or PA.

Thinly veiled assertions involving nxkes should always be called out, by everybody, as these types of actions you advocate are reckless and highly irresponsible.

It is you trying to use the blogs for advocation of anti-civilizational elements and anti-western sentiment. You seem to hate the west and empathize with anything that is anti-western.

You advocate freedom for Kashmiris from the green horned devil called India, but don’t think the Tibetans deserve freedom and don’t think Balochi’s deserve a voice and have not mentioned that Kashmiri’s in Pakistan occupied Kashmir deserve any voice.

I tried calling you out on this as well, but you seem think I am “confusing” the issue. I am sorry if you are confused, we all are, regarding your one-sided biased stances on almost everything, I am losing count.

Posted by G-W | Report as abusive
 

“@GW
If India can get out of the babylonian prison that its leaders have built for them, it would be good for the region. On the other hand if India is happy in the current situation, then good luck India, continue your progress and be happy. Do not bother your head trying to know my identity.

Rex Minor”

–>It is laughable that you can’t see where India was during partition and where it is today.

If you had even 1/10 of your cerebrum functioning at even marginal capacity and could comprehend and fathom the way in which India blew past Pakistan, in almost every regards, you would be advocating for pakistani’s to do what the Indians have done to progress so far in such a short time.

You might be reading clippings from 35 or 40 years ago, anyways, it does not matter. India is about to be offered a seat at the UNSC, within time, trade, security and political partnering with the west,and all such things are coming to fruition, despite that India was friends with old cold war enemies. Indians held steady, worked hard, were humble, had restraint, were militarily non-aggressive and it all paid off. Indians succeeded on their own merit and have gained prestige and respect, world wide.

A reasonable person would think that this is something to be impressed about. India is plural, secular and a young democracy, a special one with its own flavor, given all of its challenges, it is far from perfect. For numerous reasons, it is poised to overtake China in 25-35 years, as predicted by the most astute economists.

Despite all of that, you are uninmpressible.

If India is in a babylonian prison, the Pakistan must be sitting at the bottom of cliff, pushed by a dinosaur or a woolly mammoth. There really is no comparision, so please do not insult our neighbour.

The lens you view the world through are polarized and foggy, but you seem to be okay with that.

Posted by G-W | Report as abusive
 

Singh

““Ummah is the most dangerous weapon since faceless radicals from places as far as chechenia and Indinesia could get involved in a conflict.”

In other words Ummah in today’s context can be classified as a terrorist network based on your description above. ”

***I hope he is not serious, if he is. just ignore him. He does not know what he is talking about.

Posted by rehmat | Report as abusive
 

@rex
“Ummah is the most dangerous weapon since faceless radicals from places as far as chechenia and Indinesia could get involved in a conflict.”

Precisely. That’s what has made this world conflict as Muslim ‘Radicals’ vs Rest. This Ummah if is the ‘most dangerous’ weapon, your words not mine, then anyone using and/or praising it is definitely a monster and a threat to mankind.

Although personally I won’t agree with you on Ummah being a weapon. Its the people like you who put ‘label’ of ‘Muslim under threat’ on every other problem faced by muslims and try to make a ‘weapon’ out of ‘Ummah’ and hence create a grave threat to humanity. Why would anyone persecute muslims for being muslims?? I never get this false sense of victimhood among a small set of people (muslims specially) when any problem by the people is interpreted as ‘because of their religion’.

I would agree with Rehmat and Mortal that you need a mental checkup. People with thinking like yours are grave threat to humanity than anything else. Because on surface you talk of humanity and peace and deep inside you crave for Pashtoon the cruel, Ummah the Weapon, USA/USSR the satan, etc. etc. This is not how peace is achieved. You (radicals) cannot go on threatening everyone to meet all your illegal demands just because otherwise you will disrupt peace. Get your head checked up.

Posted by 777xxx777 | Report as abusive
 

@777
It matters not what you and I think about this world or label each other with names, the grount reality can not be ignored.
Those clever and people with an inferiority complex have a problem to swallow back the radical labels they allocated previously to the humans, and spread a paranoid in our times;

. axis of evil
. terrorists
. radical muslims
. Islamists
etc. etc.

Go back to sleep, the day light is visible on the horizon, yours is the world of darkness, not mine. Only people having the intellectual courage and belief in mataphysics and morality and ethics are going to restore order and balance in the civilised societies!

Rex Minor

Posted by pakistan | Report as abusive
 

@PS
correction, GROUND REALITY

Rex Minor

Posted by pakistan | Report as abusive
 

@Rex
“Go back to sleep, the day light is visible on the horizon, yours is the world of darkness, not mine”

Again nothing concrete from you, just more ridicule and gibberish.

“Only people having the intellectual courage and belief in mataphysics and morality and ethics are going to restore order and balance in the civilised societies”

And those are Pashtoons with A-Q (Al-Qaeda) ideology?

Posted by 007XXX | Report as abusive
 

Those clever and people with an inferiority complex have a problem to swallow back the radical labels they allocated previously to the humans, and spread a paranoid in our times;

. axis of evil
. terrorists
. radical muslims
. Islamists
etc. etc.

–>Rex, Minor, you can also add these words used by some to spread paranoia, in other parts of the world. We have ALL heard these before:

-Christian Crusaders
-Zionists
-Kaffirs
-heretics
-Infidel
-The Great Satan
-Munafiq
-Mushrekeen (religious deviants)

the list goes on and on…..but that does not mean that all people are racist, nor are the victims deserving of being labeled such things.

You see, there is ignorance on both sides and this is your great moral failing. You make everthing too on-sided and make one side into a victim. There are victors and victims on all sides, you are for some reason completely oblivious to all that.

All cultures have ignorance in them, it is not exclusive to one side or the other. I am glad that you are a part of the 21st century.

Posted by G-W | Report as abusive
 

On the topic of shame, I don’t have a word to describe the story below:

Justice, Pakistani citizen style:

http://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/world/ou tcry-over-death-sentence-for-blasphemy-m other-who-offered-farmhands-water-201011 12-17pri.html

Pope implores Pakistani to spare mother of young children.

I am lost for words.

Posted by G-W | Report as abusive
 

Rex

“Only people having the intellectual courage and belief in mataphysics and morality and ethics are going to restore order and balance in the civilised societies!”

***That’s a tall order from people with gun! Keep waiting.

Happy Eid!

Posted by rehmat | Report as abusive
 

@Rehmat
let us recognise the divine power in all occurances.

Happy Eid to you also!

Rex Milnor

Posted by pakistan | Report as abusive
 

@Rex

“let us recognise the divine power in all occurances.”

***Of course!

Peace!
Rehmat

Posted by rehmat | Report as abusive
 

Having gone through the article its comments and counter comments of my commenter friends reminded me of a thief after committing theft on way back met some simple persons and gave a religious sermon stating therein not to commit theft as it is a very bad sin and GOD will punish the person whoever commits theft.
I was amazed to find that in Twenty First Century sighting examples of shame of others forgetting those days when people did not have even the clothes to hide the Shame not only of the population but also the country during the Muslim and British rules.

Pakistan as an independent country came into being much later, to sight example before Partition came into being should be the shame of India not Pakistan. What about DNA change of the Rajputs and Hindus during the Mugals were not the generations of shame for India..

Probably drone attacks are not that shameful as handing over by the male members of the country of Rajput and Hindu women to undergo physical torture of shameful rape nights and days in and out by the Mugals and British. Is it not a distasteful and most disgusting shameful episode of the Indian Nation? Can this fact be erased? No, it cannot be as facts remain fresh as a bud under all conditions.
If weighed and measured India has more loathsome and shameful history than Pakistan. Indian hate against Muslim may be because of the DNA change during Muslim rule in India. Whatever Muslims left for its children in return is more than enough, which even to day India earns to because of those and feed its citizens. However, would no one call it a shame? No.

Posted by KINGFISHER | Report as abusive
 

@KINGFISHER

“Probably drone attacks are not that shameful as handing over by the male members of the country of Rajput and Hindu women to undergo physical torture of shameful rape nights and days in and out by the Mugals and British”

***Be sensible!

If anything of that sort happened at mass level that you seem to be indicating, it is EQUALLY shameful for Muslims. if you do not think so, you got a problem. Do not be proud of this! This is no Mughal glory. What you said justifies the notion carried by some Hindus of genocide and rape during Mughal times. If I take your line of thought a bit further, British would have done the same to Muslim women as well. No?

What’s the point of all this?

Posted by rehmat | Report as abusive
 

The facts are indeed very bitter for all. Therefore, pouncing on a country and people one hates should not be the matter of ones’ pride, joy and victory. Thus, one should not hit another on points that strikes another morbidly My friend.

What the Mugals and the British did in bygone day on Hindus or Muslims and all others are part of facts not mentioned in the history books vividly, why? it is to avert pronouncing shame to a nation in writing either about India, Pakistan or about any other nation for decencies sake.

Hence, it is better not to dig on one another in matters of religion, and past. As many facts are unwritten whether these unwritten facts of shame are in regard to Hindus , Muslims, Christians, Jews or of any others, because these are painful stories of humankind particularly for any nation and should be avoided to bring them to surface not only for decencies sake but for humanity’s sake.

I mentioned certain unwritten historical facts to evoke the feeling in all of us the sense of humanity and to make us all realize how we must have been hurting one another daily morbidly.

Just think how would we establish friendship with one another if we all fight on and continue to do so infinitely. My friends we must agree that is the greatest shame for us all in Twenty First Century, irrespective of nation, race and religion in fact for all humankind.

Please remember the essence that first we should be rational then only we can call ourselves Humankind.

Posted by KINGFISHER | Report as abusive
 

Rape is not a matter of “shame” for the victim. It’s a crime. The collective finger of society should be pointed at the perpetrator, not the victim.

Instead of viewing the history of conquest as a matter of “shame” for the conquered nation, can we be civilised enough to see it as a crime on the part of the conqueror? There is no honour in aggression and conquest. It’s a sign of barbarism.

Regards,
Ganesh Prasad

Posted by prasadgc | Report as abusive
 

“I mentioned certain unwritten historical facts to evoke the feeling in all of us the sense of humanity and to make us all realize how we must have been hurting one another daily morbidly.”
***Oh I see!

“Whatever Muslims left for its children in return is more than enough, which even to day India earns to because of those and feed its citizens.”
***So deep down you are still thinking from Muslim vs Hindu. Rationally speaking, there is nothing like “ancestors left and is more than enough”. Each generation has to work hard for its next generation like each one of ours ancestors did. Muslims (nor anyone else) of today cannot claim credit for the Mughal glory nor should they be discredited for whatever happened in the history.

The present matters, since that dictates the future. I have no idea how you can claim about India feeding citizens due to what the Muslims left. Does this not amount to what you prescribe not to do “Hence, it is better not to dig on one another in matters of religion, and past.

The sad part is everyone wants peace and everyone prescribes peace and still peace is no where. I wonder why.

Posted by rehmat | Report as abusive
 

@”What’s the point of all this?”
Posted by rehmat

I believe, the answer to that lies in the phrase “kisi ki jal rahi hai”.

Posted by Mortal1 | Report as abusive
 

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