Pakistan and the narrative of shame

November 11, 2010

lahore mosqueManan Ahmed has a piece up at Chapati Mystery which should be essential reading for anyone interested in the current state of Pakistan and its prickly relations with the west, particularly with the United States. 

Starting off with a re-reading of Salman Rushdie’s “Shame” (one of those books that I expect many of us read in our youth without properly understanding) he returns to the original inspiration for the title – “Peccavi“, Latin for “I have sinned.”   According to an apocryphal, yet widely believed, story of British imperial conquest, “Peccavi” is the message that General Charles Napier sent back to Calcutta when he conquered Sindh (nowadays one of the provinces of Pakistan) in the 19th century. He then discusses how the modern-day view of Pakistan is defined by shame, or by a perception which over-simplifies it to  “Peccavistan”.

“Peccavistan is just as real as Pakistan,” he writes. ”It is a bundling, an explaining, a framing, a means of de-mystification when the mystery is itself a reflection of paucity of sources not of intelligibility. Peccavistan sells because Peccavistan takes away complexity, it reduces our mental and emotional commitments to Pakistan. Pakistan, though 180 million strong, ravaged by floods and suicide bombers, continues to carry on. Apocryphally speaking.”

Do read the whole thing, but his description is familiar.  I’ve shortened some paragraphs below to illustrate the point, in ways I hope do not do too much disservice to his text:

“In Napier’s view, a particular violence and terror haunted the valleys of Sindh. It was the Muslim menace in power … His civilizing mission, for which he invented a casus belli, was to counter this terror and violence … This violence which was projected onto and into the Sindhis by the colonial voice masked, however, the colonial violence itself … So even though Napier, who landed in Sindh in 1841, saw terror and violence everywhere, he failed to see it as his own violence.”

There is a lot to think about there. Among them, is what it tells you about  the impact of the U.S. decision to intensify its drone bombing campaign on Pakistan’s tribal areas, usually presented as a way of saving Pakistan from itself. These drone attacks are believed to be carried out with the complicity of the Pakistan government and the army.

Whether the drone bombings are appropriate or not, the narrative that resonates in Pakistan is one of shame – the notion that the government is too weak to stop a foreign country firing missiles into its own sovereign territory.  You can twist the knife on that — and people do – by making that shame more painful by dint of official collaboration. Then - and I would stress I am not defending this view but rather trying to explain it – you are a short step away from the argument used by Islamist militants and their sympathisers that Pakistan needs to be ”saved” from its rulers, if necessary by force.

One of the other points from Peccavistan is to understand how far Pakistan is defined by history. The United States post 9/11 has been notoriously short on its understanding of history. And while it can be misleading to see everything through the lens of colonial rule, you probably have to reconcile those two ways of thinking if Pakistan and the United States are ever to work out how to understand each other.

82 comments

We welcome comments that advance the story through relevant opinion, anecdotes, links and data. If you see a comment that you believe is irrelevant or inappropriate, you can flag it to our editors by using the report abuse links. Views expressed in the comments do not represent those of Reuters. For more information on our comment policy, see http://blogs.reuters.com/fulldisclosure/2010/09/27/toward-a-more-thoughtful-conversation-on-stories/

Pakistanis have always looked for a savior from outside to come in and rescue them from the evil local rulers. Their history books begins with the invasion of Muhammad Bin Qasim who defeated the “evil” king Dahir who is supposed to have refused to contain the pirates in the Arabian sea. Dahir is portrayed as an evil incarnation. I am sure they are praying for another savior to save them from the evil in their midst. Unfortunately they do not realize who the real evil is.

Posted by KPSingh01 | Report as abusive

[...] with the United States cannot be separated from the narratives inherited from colonial rule.” Pakistan: Now or Never? This entry was posted in Global News and tagged narrative, Pakistan, Shame. Bookmark the [...]

@Indian friends,

We have to help lift Pakistani’s from the damaged past. Pakistani’s are our brothers. We have the resources and finances to share.

We should make it a mission to make peace with Pakistan and lift them up and bring a sense of pride back. A pride in a new type of Pakistan, free from militantism and full of peace.

Our full pressure, dealing with Pakistan, should to stuff peace down their throats until they choke on it.

Pakistan will never rise on it own, contrary to what many proud Pakistani’s feel. It will require a helping hand from India. At the end of the day, Pakistan’s arch rival, India will have to be the one to help Pakistan.

Posted by G-W | Report as abusive

Merely Handing over Kashmir will not fix Pakistan’s problems. Pakistan can barely manage its own affairs, let alone more territory. In this regard, the Pakistani establishment have propagated the myth that stealing kashmir will bring back a sense of pride to pakistani’s, that is a false and lying assertion. The troubles there run far deeper and wider than just Kashmir. Kashmir is not a problem, but a migraine for Pakistan. Pakistan should focus on rebuilding itself, before it wants to resolve Kashmir. A sinking ship is not really in any position to declare much ownership of anything.

Posted by G-W | Report as abusive

G-W,

Your words are well intended. But we cannot get carried away with ideal views. Don’t we all like to live in peace? Why is that a problem? Is it something new? One sided approach will lead to disaster. There must be a reciprocatory feeling from the other side. When the wall came down in Berlin, Germans on either side ran and hugged each other. The desire to break the wall was intense on both sides. Here the wall is only growing in width and height. Pakistan itself is an outcome of that wall that was created in 1947. Its entire identity and existence is dependent on that wall of separation. When that is the case, where are they going to long for diffusing all misunderstanding? They look for excuses to keep that wall and distance growing. Kashmir is one such excuse. If Kashmir had joined Pakistan right at the beginning, do you think they will be living in peace with us? Do not kid yourself. All problems we have today are because of Pakistan’s creation. They have needed the separation and distancing to keep their unity alive. Nothing unites than the word “India”. That is not a healthy way to keep unity. India can have many enemies. Pakistan has only one and this enemy is its lifeline. We all have goodwill and love etc for everyone. But it is a day dream to expect Pakistanis to suddenly drop everything and run towards their Indian brothers. We have to deal with matters based on ground realities. The only thing Pakistan can do now is to take off its anti-India stance and learn to mind its own business. They have to stop comparing themselves with India on everything. They got a nation for themselves. Instead of working on it, they have worked on keeping up with India. This India-obsession has destroyed them. If they can give that up, it will bring a lot of peace to the region. And that would be more than adequate.

Posted by KPSingh01 | Report as abusive

@singh,

at times, it seems as though, some problems are engineered to never become fixed.

I have spoke with many friends, western, Pakistani and Indian diaspora alike all of them tell me, the biggest impediment to peace are the uniformed emperors of Pakistan.

The international community has not put any feet forward to singley call out and finger these emperors as the final and only impediment to peace.

In this regard, the west, has shown an utterly indifferent conveniently neutral stand on the issue, and has not put forward one step to keep the Emperors in Pakistan accountable for peace. They have only enabled them to keep the status quo and for what reason?

Peace is in sight and at the end of the tunnel. I hate to say it, but sometimes it feels as though the west can force Pakistan to make peace, as they forced them to do many other things, but the west continues to give life support to Pakistan, which cavorts and assists Enemies of NATO AND INDIA.

Why is this being enabled? I hate to say it but sometimes it seems as though, there is a greater intention and design in mind with regards to India and Pakistan, as Pakistan continually gets life support for bad behavior.

Posted by G-W | Report as abusive

G-W,

The West or anyone cannot force Pakistanis when it becomes a matter of hearts. It can make it worse. It is India-phobia that has prevented Pakistan from going all out in the war on terror.

When Jinnah created a nation for himself, it was mostly the Muslims who ran away from India into Pakistan and those who suffered from the mutual massacre in Punjab and Bengal carried venom in their hearts. With time, that venom would have subsided off. But things changed.

Cold war geo-politics entered the region and there was no choice to any nation in the region to choose what it wanted. South Asia became a proxy war battled ground for the cold war super powers. This is when Pakistan’s military entered the picture. From the rumor mills, it is said that Ayub Khan’s ascent to the throne in 1958 was staged by the CIA. Pakistan’s military was fed with the intoxicants of modern weapons, and copious anti-Indian medicine as India began to tilt towards the USSR in defense. Pakistan’s military felt encouraged to poke and prod India knowing well that the US and its cold war allies had a huge global clout and would favor Pakistan on all its activities. This has continued until the time of Obama’s arrival. Pakistan’s military has been spoiled entirely by the American objectives in the region. I do not have to provide further details. We all know what all happened.

After 1988, the US lost interest in Pakistan and went on to establish the new world order, Yugoslavia etc. Pakistan could have chosen to compete with India economically at that time. It was the darling of the West, having been on the fore front of the war against the USSR and its demise. The West could have dumped money and anything Pakistan wanted to build its infrastructure and foundation. It is a relatively much smaller country compared to India and its progress could have been a lot faster. Within ten years it could have built the needed infrastructure and potential and by now its leaders would be hobnobbing with G20 countries.

India by some chance did the right thing at around the same time and it is now in an enviable position. Barack Obama has to come to India and dance with high school kids to please India. It has come to that.

But Pakistan’s military chose to launch the Kashmir Jihad and took all the resources towards that goal. It still got a lot of support from the West and India’s voice against terrorist menace went into deaf ears until 9/11 and beyond.

If Pakistan had chosen the wise path in 1989, by now India and Pakistan would have built business links. This mutual dependence would have diffused everything and Kashmir probably would have been settled amicably because of business interests.

But Pak military has become infested with Jihadist mindset and has turned the country into a rogue nation in the eye of the world.

Is it too late to reset everything and start on a fresh note for Pakistan? The answer is yes. They are now facing a terrible menace that their military helped create because of its choice to defeat India somehow. Who will set up business in Pakistan today? Pakistanis abroad are being looked at with suspicion. Visa rules are going to tighten. Now I am hearing that the Sufi Islam followers are getting agitated and want to take on the Barevli militants who are blowing everyone up. Pakistan is facing a civil war now.

In this condition, we have to look at the reality and deal with the situation accordingly. If Pakistan comes out of the mess on its own and decides to seek the right path some day, surely it will be a great effort to make peace with them. But right now their military’s barrel is pointed in our direction. People might be all right. But what matters is who controls everything there. And they are not interested in considering India as a friend. Therefore your dreams will remain so for quite a while. And I don’t know if Pakistan will survive in the meantime.

Posted by KPSingh01 | Report as abusive

@”If Pakistan had chosen the wise path in 1989, by now India and Pakistan would have built business links”
Posted by KPSingh01

It’s really quite interesting, how a nation has to live with the choices made by it’s leaders. In many ways, 1990/91 was the cross-roads for both India & Pakistan. Pakistan was really in a very good position. It was the darling of the west, had a decent economy & a lot of things going for it. India on the other hand, was in a precarious situation with it’s economy stuck in the infamous 2% hindu growth rate (as economists called it), poverty, corruption & regionalism on the rise and no voice in the global community. But from that point on, Pakistani leaders chose militancy & intimidation, while the Indian leaders chose economic & social progress AND we are, where we are today!

Posted by Mortal1 | Report as abusive

The more I think of it, the clearer the picture becomes. I have always wondered why Pakistan was formed and how it has survived to this day. The underlying root cause is not the urge to have a nation for Muslims. Pakistan is a result of the imperial British empire. In fact the idea of Pakistan itself was hatched in London.

We have to look at the circumstances of that time when the British empire began to close. Britain was still a super power at that time, having control over large swaths of land across the world. South Asia was a jewel in the crown. Britain probably decided to create Pakistan for its own interests in the region. Russian incursions into Afghanistan had to be prevented at all costs, even after giving independence to India. A united India under Congress leadership would not have allowed UK to have any influence in that regard. Creating a smaller nation bordering Afghanistan would have worked to that purpose. And to keep that small nation aligned with British imperial interests, this new nation has to be an anti-thesis in every aspect towards the new Indian nation.

Britain did not realize that it would no longer be the power it was. The US emerged as the next power. Cold war geo-politics became the next priority item. A united India would never have helped UK or US to have a foothold in the region against the Russians.

Therefore Pakistan’s very creation is based on geo-strategic reasons. I wonder if Kashmir issue was created to keep Pakistan aligned against India or not. To this day, it has been an unresolved issue. The powers have played careful politics to keep the status quo. During the first Kashmir war of 1948, Pakistan’s army was still headed by the British. Lord Mountbatten was still in charge on the Indian side.

During cold war days, Pakistan got the best treatment from the Western powers. UK became like a second home for Pakistanis, while Indians were subjected to virginity tests and discrimination. India’s tilt towards the Soviet Union was probably anticipated even before independence was granted.

Soviet Union has disappeared. Global equations have changed. Alignments have shifted. New player have emerged. In this context, Pakistan’s relevance has become insignificant for the global players. Britain has shrunk to a small country with no global influence. It is broke. It is losing its voice. It has nothing to gain from Pakistan. Russians are no longer the threat they were. But Pakistan has gained momentum. They are unable to stem that momentum. India could not be thwarted. Chruchill’s vision never materialized. Instead of splintering into perpetually fighting small states, India has managed to gain more strength and unity. All geo-strategic equations created in the 1940s have been nullified.

In this new situation, Pakistan’s existence and its relevance has become a question mark. In reality it is not a nation for Muslims. There is no unity to demonstrate that. It split up into two in 1971 by proving that point. Now it is a region under the control of a military cartel that has grown fat by feeding on the old cold war geo-political interests.

Pakistan has become like a sticky tape that the UK and the US are trying hard to shake off from their fingers. The more they do, the stickier it gets. It has now become a threat to its own puppet masters. They want to move on into the new world order in which they find themselves at the receiving end. They need to cozy up with the newly emerging powers in Asia. And the sticky tape of Pakistan is not letting them go forward. India will not co-operate or do the needed favors, if US and UK try to please Pakistan. China will not budge either. And there is always the danger of India and China becoming business partners that can negate the need for any reliance on Western powers.

So Pakistan, which was created for geo-political interests in South Asia, has come to haunt its creators. It is they who have to find a fix. Neither Pakistanis nor anyone else can do it for them.

Posted by KPSingh01 | Report as abusive

@Singh,

I look forward to the day when Pakistani’s fire the fat, corrupt, stinky faujis that have created the terrorist and militant infrastructure. The fat faujis need to keep Pakistani’s stupid, weak, subverted and uninformed, to keep their grip on power.

Posted by G-W | Report as abusive

@Singh,

I look forward to the day when Pakistani’s fire the fxt, corxupt, stxnky faujis that have created the terrorist and militant infrastructure. The fat faujis need to keep Pakistani’s stxpid, weak, subverted and uninformed, to keep their grip on power over their minds.

One day, Pakistani’s will wake up from the slumber and their need for revenge and retribution will uncontainable. The world will watch as Pakistani’s regain their sovereignty.

Posted by G-W | Report as abusive

All you Bharti posters:
At least read the subject article and know what the subject is or is it that your hatred of Pakistan is so deep that it does not matter.

Posted by Matrixx | Report as abusive

KPSingh:”Pakistan’s existence and its relevance has become a question mark. In reality it is not a nation for Muslims. There is no unity to demonstrate that. It split up into two in 1971 by proving that point. Now it is a region under the control of a military cartel that has grown fat by feeding on the old cold war geo-political interests. ”

-May I ask you how is Pakistan’s existence under question mark? and indeed Islamic Republic of Pakistan is a nation of 180 million peaceful muslims. You are mentally sick my friend and your sickness is you are in a state of denial and unable to accept the reality of Pakistan. Pakistan is a major-Non NATO ally of the US, has a stategic dialogue going on with US at all levels and Pakistan is demanding a civil nuclear deal with the US. Pakistan has direct contact with NATO and this year an EU-Pakistan summit took place between the leaders of EU and Pakistan. In short Pakistan is an important and unique muslim country, you don’t have many muslim countries with the potential and qualities of Pakistan.

Having stated that, coming to the topic it is indeed shame that our government is weak and irrelevant and unable to take a stand on national matters. It would take time and effort before real strong governance can be put in place and take the nation forward.

Posted by Umairpk | Report as abusive

KPSingh:”Is it too late to reset everything and start on a fresh note for Pakistan? The answer is yes. They are now facing a terrible menace that their military helped create because of its choice to defeat India somehow. Who will set up business in Pakistan today? Pakistanis abroad are being looked at with suspicion. Visa rules are going to tighten. Now I am hearing that the Sufi Islam followers are getting agitated and want to take on the Barevli militants who are blowing everyone up. Pakistan is facing a civil war now. ”

-Dont be a fool, you don’t know what you are talking about. do you know who are Barelvis? no. Barelvis are not millitants infact they are being targeted. You dont have an idea who are deobandis, barelvis or Ahl-e-Hadith and yet your statements prove your ignorance. Pakistan is facing an insurgency in FATA and the Army operations have brought peace to restive tribal areas. Overwhelming public support to the Army means its only a matter of time before they declare full victory.

and you further stated:
” And I don’t know if Pakistan will survive in the meantime.”
- Don’t worry and sleep tight, we fought and won our independence and know how to defend our freedom. We survived wars etc and now we will thrive, build a strong economy, bring good governance. The only thing irritates me is few people are really not the well wishers of Pakistan. And I am afraid some of the times your statements tend to be among those.

Posted by Umairpk | Report as abusive

Singh

Good analysis.

Pakistan’s birth cannot be justified but its existence can be.

Pakistan could not really become independent and almost everything that happens there is in context of India which does not testify the hypothesis of need for Pakistan’s birth. 1971 was a critical time when 2 nation nation theory was proven wrong.

About India, somethings that happen here are in context of Pakistan, not all.

GW: A true civilian control of Pakistan will take place only when PA feels that is in their interest well. People can wish, protest but making PA to take orders from civilian leaders is not possible. PA does not trust civilian leaders as well as people do not really trust these politicians. That means changes will happen slowly and over a period of time. A dictatorship-free future of Pakistan (direct control by Army) will slowly develop the system needed. It takes one generation turnover when things are this bad.

Posted by rehmat | Report as abusive

Umair

“May I ask you how is Pakistan’s existence under question mark? and indeed Islamic Republic of Pakistan is a nation of 180 million peaceful muslims.”

***Tell me one thing: is it 180million Muslims or is it 180million Pakistanis, majority being Muslims. It is like India saying 1.2billion Hindus and ignore Muslims like me and other religious minorities.

Posted by rehmat | Report as abusive

Rehmat:
“Tell me one thing: is it 180million Muslims or is it 180million Pakistanis, majority being Muslims. It is like India saying 1.2billion Hindus and ignore Muslims like me and other religious minorities.”

-It is certainly 180 million Muslims, and lets us not compare the Islamic Republic of Pakistan with the Republic of India. Pakistan is an Islamic country and 98% of its population is Muslim. There is no question of minority or majority in Pakistan, it is understood that this is a muslim nation where christians, hindus, sikhs etc have equal rights. Chruches and temples as well as Gurdwaras exist in Pakistan too along with the Mosques.

Let me also add one more thing here, when it comes to Islam, for me persoanlly Pakistan becomes irrelevant. Muslim Ummah is one nation, nationalism is seperate but Islam is a religion of universal brotherhood. This is my perspective as a Muslim Pakistani (note I stated Muslim Pakistani, not Pakistani muslim). Now can you please tell me what do you think of your self, are you a Muslim Indian? Indian Muslim? just a Muslim or just an Indian? I would like to know your view as well.

Posted by Umairpk | Report as abusive

@Rehmat,

The PA can benefit from peace, by using their existing industries and expanding them and using the current 180million people as a labour force to manufacture for the West. China, the so-called all weather friend, I don’t think that they would like that very much, they like Pakistan as it is.

In this regard, both the Pakistani citizens and Pakistani army can help each other to greatness and economic prosperity, if they work together to reject militantism against India and the world and seek to build productive endeavors.

Kashmir will be fixed easily, if Pakistani’s are happy, all have jobs and a good future to look forward to.

The Army is squandering opportunities for its future outside of enmity with India. The United States patience is not eternal. There will be a price to pay by Pakistan, if there are more terrorist attacks on U.S. soil.

There is a way out for the Pakistani army, the Pakistani people, the Kashmiri’s and the Indians. It is quite simple. Reject the status quo and realize that if everybody can benefit, a win win for everybody is best for happiness of all, except China.

Posted by G-W | Report as abusive

Rehmat:”Pakistan’s birth cannot be justified but its existence can be.Pakistan could not really become independent and almost everything that happens there is in context of India which does not testify the hypothesis of need for Pakistan’s birth. 1971 was a critical time when 2 nation nation theory was proven wrong.”

-Rehmat, when back in 1947 the slogan became “Pakistan! ya maut” (Pakistan or death) and ‘bat ka rahega hindustan, ban ke rahega Pakistan’ (India will split, Pakistan will be formed) tells that creation of Pakistan was inevitable. Muslims were prepared to give there lives for Pakistan and create a nation with their blood. The problem is right from start Indian leaders were the eternal enemies of Pakistan and never accepted it. In 1971 they tried to prove the two-nation theroy wrong. In 1998 Pakistan sealed its soverignty with nuclear weapons. Now India cannot afford its total destruction and risk nuclear war by attacking Pakistan again. This should be enough for you to understand and justify the existence of Pakistan. Can you dare to threaten the existence of a nuclear Pakistan? I am sure you are not a fool.

Posted by Umairpk | Report as abusive

Umair,

If Pakistan breaks again, it will be for the very same reason that it broke in 1971. And NO, despite what you want to believe, that reason was NOT India. That primary reason was & will be, the exploitation & subjugation of Pakistanis BY Pakistanis. In many ways, things are getting a lot worse now, than they were in 1971. Back then, it was the East Pakistanis (bengalis) on one side & the rest of Pakistanis on the other. Today, there a lot more divisions in the Pakistani society than there ever were & it seems that every ethnic group wants it’s own independant state. What good will your nukes be, when your country is embroiled in a vicious civil war? Will you use your nukes against the balochs, pashtuns, muhajirs, sindhis? You don’t have to worry about India because India is more interested in the economic & social progress of it’s people than in breaking up Pakistan. Besides, you guys yourselves, are better at that.

Posted by Mortal1 | Report as abusive

@”Pakistan is a major-Non NATO ally of the US, has a stategic dialogue going on with US at all levels and Pakistan is demanding a civil nuclear deal with the US. Pakistan has direct contact with NATO and this year an EU-Pakistan summit took place between the leaders of EU and Pakistan” AND

@”There is no question of minority or majority in Pakistan, it is understood that this is a muslim nation where christians, hindus, sikhs etc have equal rights”

Umair, no matter how naive you might be, I find it hard to believe that deep down inside, you don’t know that all of the above is a bunch of BULLCRAP!

Posted by Mortal1 | Report as abusive

@Umair

Also regarding the US Af-Pak policy, the mid-term election results are bound to affect Pakistan adversly. I’m hearing that the Republicans are about to put pressure on Obama to extend the withdrawal date indefinetely or at least till 2015. The Republicans are also going to pressurize the administration into hitting other groups like Haqqanis & LeT and the aid given to pakistan will also be opposed by many, in the new congress. These developments won’t bode well for Pakistan. It’ll be interesting to see how it plays out!

Posted by Mortal1 | Report as abusive

Mortal: “You don’t have to worry about India because India is more interested in the economic & social progress of it’s people”

Posted by Umairpk | Report as abusive

Mortal:
I think more than that the fact that Pakistan is a nuclear state acts as a deterent against India. I am sure had that not been the case India would have been much more hostile in return.
On mid-term elections we are least concerned, internal American politics will have no impact on the policies of Pakistan Military. We will go into N.Waziristan only if and when it is in our interest. As for divisions within Pakistan or the country being worse off than before. I can tell you if we can endure the worst of natural disaster and terrorist violence instigated by criminals and control it, we are capable of achieving anything.

Posted by Umairpk | Report as abusive

@”I think more than that the fact that Pakistan is a nuclear state acts as a deterent against India.”

I agree that your nukes act as a detterence against India but as I said, they are nothing but a pile of junk metal against your own people.

@”On mid-term elections we are least concerned, internal American politics will have no impact on the policies of Pakistan Military. We will go into N.Waziristan only if and when it is in our interest”

I strongly disagree. If the war is extended & the noose is tightened, it will certainly affect Pakistan. Even if your army does not go into North Waziristan, there could be an increased program of drone strikes in that area & strikes on groups like LeT as well. Interestingly, my comments from above, are reflected in this peice in Dawn.

http://www.dawn.com/2010/11/14/us-mid-te rm-elections-multiply-pakistan%e2%80%99s -worries.html

Posted by Mortal1 | Report as abusive

Terrorists adressing lawyers in Pakistan!

“Hafiz Saeed speaks at LHC Bar Association”

http://tribune.com.pk/story/75920/hafiz- saeed-speaks-at-lhc-bar-association/

Posted by Mortal1 | Report as abusive

Umairpk,

Pakistan today is not a nation for Muslims. It is a nation for a military cartel that is using Islamists to keep its power hold on the region. The people never got anything from a nation named Pakistan. The military grew fat and is taking up almost everything for itself.

The Indian sub-continent has divisions based on many factors. It is not just religion alone. There are divisive forces that can rely on caste prejudice, language, ethnicity, class difference etc. Such forces have existed for a long time. The British exploited it to the hilt to keep the locals in conflict while strengthening their power hold in the sub-continent.

After the Sepoy Mutiny of 1857, Muslims were pushed down the hierarchy by the British. Hindus and other non-Muslims who were existing as second class citizens were propped up by the British. Hindus and others filled up the civil service and administrative positions in the British India. In about 50 years, Muslims had been pushed to the fringe. The Sepoy Mutiny became a Muslim rebellion against the British, even though initially everyone got involved in it.

By the time independence was approaching, the British suddenly reversed their stance against the Muslims. This is because they hated giving up their colony to the Congress party under Gandhi and Nehru. They wanted to set up a land mine in the region that will never allow India to emerge as a power. Pakistan is that land mine.

The idea of Pakistan was hatched in London. Jinnah, who was a Muslim in name only, suddenly championed the cause for a Muslim nation. His power craze played into the hands of the British who wanted a small nation near Afghanistan border to keep their control in the region against Russian expansion. In fact Pakistan was the country that was used to defeat the Soviets in 1988 that led to its ultimate collapse and demise. This creation of Pakistan for Muslims only is only the cover. The real reason behind that is very different.

That is one reason why Pakistan never really became a true Islamic nation. It is basically a military garrison. Pakistan was a creation of global geo-politics. It is expendable as far as these powers are concerned. The equations have changed. As a result, Pakistan is left unwanted.

China is not your country’s friend. Rather it is the enemy of your country’s enemy. If Pakistan is not India’s enemy, China cannot control India remotely. Therefore enmity will be sustained at all costs. Your military’s pay masters will come from China soon.
By playing into the hands of the manipulating powers, Pakistan is destroying itself in the bargain. And the reason is emotional in nature – Indiaphobia. If Pakistan has to survive as a country and recover, it needs to give up Indiaphobia and paranoia. Otherwise no matter how many nukes you might have, your country will still be a puppet in the hands of one power on the other.

Pakistan has been reduced to the state of a whore after going to bed with the British, then the Americans and the Chinese are waiting for their turn.

We do recognize Pakistan as a sovereign nation. However, I have always wondered why things happened the way they did.

Posted by KPSingh01 | Report as abusive

Umair

I really just wanted the numbers of Muslims in Pakistan and did not mean to put you on the defensive. Rest what you say about religious minorities are your views and you are entitled. I am not touching that now.

I do not usually get into religious discussions nor this is the place. Let me make an exception.

You said: “Let me also add one more thing here, when it comes to Islam, for me persoanlly Pakistan becomes irrelevant. Muslim Ummah is one nation, nationalism is seperate but Islam is a religion of universal brotherhood. This is my perspective as a Muslim Pakistani (note I stated Muslim Pakistani, not Pakistani muslim). Now can you please tell me what do you think of your self, are you a Muslim Indian? Indian Muslim? just a Muslim or just an Indian? I would like to know your view as well.
*** Pakistan is an Islamic country and you are Muslim so you are fine as far religion and nation is concerned. The very birth of Pakistan makes Pakistan and Muslim synonym.

Regarding Muslim Ummah, this is a modern world, democracy and citizenship are new concepts. We have to change accordingly by keeping our values.

There is really no value to saying Muslim Ummah as one nation if we are not doing something for Muslims in one nation. See these sectarian fighting in Pakistan and elsewhere or the intolerant ideological differences. I am not counting terrorists here when I make this comment. It is bit ironic that good Muslims, who say Muslim Ummah is one nation and sympathize with a Muslim thousand miles away, would not see each other eye to eye with each other living next door.

To answer your question, I am a Muslim and Indian, the order hardly matters since neither prevents me from carrying out my duties. Islam helps me to be a better Indian and more importantly better human being. Given this, the rest falls in place. My Indian nationality grants me freedom to help a Muslim in need—giving donation for a suffering Muslim in need after natural disasters. My religion and my social experiences also gives me an understanding to help non-Muslims in need, like I am sure you would do too. I would not really care about boundaries of the modern countries for this. In other matters, let us say if I am a soldier, I would care about national boundaries. I have a contract with my country and I have loyalty to it. If a Muslim in India cannot do it, he must move to a Muslim country like Pakistan. My understanding of the religion
I hope I am clear. Now I ask you, what you would do if you were in my place.

Let me add here since we are at it that Pakistan (Yahhya Khan 1968 or 69??) boycotted India’s entry into Organization of Islamic Countries (OIC) despite such a large number of Muslims in India. If OCI is anywhere remotely close to representing Ummah, that’s not a nice treatment of Muslims. No wonder Indian Muslims are anti-OIC.

“Rehmat, when back in 1947 the slogan became “Pakistan! ya maut” (Pakistan or death) and ‘bat ka rahega hindustan, ban ke rahega Pakistan’ (India will split, Pakistan will be formed) tells that creation of Pakistan was inevitable. Muslims were prepared to give there lives for Pakistan and create a nation with their blood.”
***Pakistan was a flawed idea since this was an attempt by Qaide-Azam Jinnah, among others, to give a geographical shape to an idea of boundary-less Muslim Ummah in the region. Obviously only half the Muslims moved since it was not practically possible or they saw their future better than Jinnah could show them. Rest all is extension of this. This also showed the lack of co-existence by Muslims as far as religion is concerned since Hindus could live under Mughal rule, but Muslims like Jinnah did not see that possible (despite XYZ reason). In any case it was not Hindu empire, rather a democracy and if you add Muslims in Pakistan and Bangladesh and India, you can imagine who would be calling the shots.

“The problem is right from start Indian leaders were the eternal enemies of Pakistan and never accepted it. In 1971 they tried to prove the two-nation theroy wrong.”
***Let us not play the blame game. I have seen this happening here and it is endless. It was just over one year of investment on India’s part in 1971 to prove the theory wrong. Was the theory so weak?

“ In 1998 Pakistan sealed its soverignty with nuclear weapons. Now India cannot afford its total destruction and risk nuclear war by attacking Pakistan again. This should be enough for you to understand and justify the existence of Pakistan. Can you dare to threaten the existence of a nuclear Pakistan? I am sure you are not a fool.”
***Then you should sit back and relax. I have been telling you the same thing. Rest is your mental exercise.
You are right I am not a fool (smiling). Dear! I want to see you living happy not that I am a Muslim but from Indian POV there is no benefit to see you fall apart. That’s all I can say. I hope you take it positively. Take your finger off that nuke button. Powerful people do not even talk about this stuff.

A serious question: Rex claimed that Pushtoon Army officers hold control of nukes and he is doubting their professionalism and says that these guys will fire nuke at India when they want. I am just curious is he right?

Posted by rehmat | Report as abusive

@KPSingh
A good peace of history, but biased. Allow me to add some missing features.
Pakistan is not a Nation yet but still a country for muslims of the region and those who were forced out of India.I know it is difficult for a non muslim to understand this, but let me refer to Umair’s quote; Muslim Ummah is one NATION, nationalism is separate but Islam is a religion of universal brotherhood. I would also add that Nationalism causing discrimination agaist the minorities is not only inhuman but forbidden in Islam.

Mr Jinnah’s concept was either not communicated accuratel to the Indian masses or not supported outright by the congress leaders. The Pashtoons and the sikhs communities were more or less happy to get rid of Brits and could not care less who runs the civilian Govt. after this. The Pashtoons later supported the concept of Pakistan, for them there was not going to be any change since they had the majority in their region. In otherwards, they were simply providing the support for muslims in other parts of India.

The 1857 mutiny occured when the Indian sepoys felt to have tasted the cow and pig in their mouths. This was the cause of rebellion, a very important development. in other words they tacitly accepted to be the slaves of the britishmasters, as long as his religion/faith is protected.
QUESTION; IS THE CRITERION OF RELIGION IS STILL THE FACTOR IN INDO_PAKISTAN POLITICS?

Throughout the British raj in India, the Pashtoons have always fought battles against them, though, allowing them the garrison cantonments and use of roads upto the so called durand line, no further. The read of warburton memoirs and ……………, provides details of the Brits experience.

Át the end of ww2, British were compelled by the US and Soviets to withdraw from their colonies allowing the people Independence. NOT so much for the chaos in India.

One needs to be fair and do not blame the Brits what happened during and after the partition.
The congress leaders headed by the Nehru family became obstinate, with the moto either you are part of us or a separate entity. This forced the Brits to allow independence to muslim majority areas, non muslim (the sikhs were pssive)mujority areas and all maharajas/ sultans controlled states, allowing the latter to join India or Pakistan entities in accordance to the wishes of their populations.

NOT EVEN A SOLOMAN COULD HAVE MADE A FAIRER DIVISION. IT IS SHAMEFUL WHAT CAME AFTER THE PARTITION.
No unbiased history student can ever understand the conflicts among the peoples of this sub-continent other than, the illetracy among the masses after sixty odd years, ethnic divides, inherent hatred towards each other and the rule of force since the moghul days, humanity being delegated the lowest of lowest position. Both countries are still hanging on to the leftover of the civil administartion and legal systems, and the so called a parliamentry democracy, with the colonial structured military and police garrisons.

No tangible reforms, no restructuring of the education system, no national values and just carrying on regardless. It would seem that the economics and the territory have become dominant factor to regulate the lives on this sub-continent, humanistic and moral values provide by the scriptures to the mankind have taken a secondary status. Even the secularism is completely misunderstood in the ancient land, thereby and one sees the jou

The identity crisis among the peoples who have emerged more radical than was allowed or experienced, during the colonial times. The ethnic divides and lack of harmony within the communities such as caste systems, shias and sunnis and Ahmedis divide, to the level of persecution is inhuman in all societies.

Pakistan and India as well have become the military garrisons only because they have not removed their colonial structures which were set up by the Brits against the Indian citizens. In other wards the rule by force.

China is neither the enemy of Pakistan nor of India. It is very difficult for you to comprehend that India must give up the idea of force to settle its disputes with its neighbours.
The rest of your language is very obscene at least in Europe, perhaps the moderator of this blog is making an exception with Indian background. Take it, do not get carried away.

Rex Minor

Posted by pakistan | Report as abusive

PS
The read of Warburton memoirs and Arthur Swinson’s North -West Frontier(1839-1947) provides details of peoples and events. No different to what is happening today. It is the yanks and the Natos, the Brits on their own. The brirs felt the retaliation in london at that time and in now the retaliation targets of global.
Rex Minor

Posted by pakistan | Report as abusive

@Rehmat
you are a manipulator of words. Your post to Omair about my doubts about the professionalism….. . You reckon that you are a master of tricks. At least have the courtesy to rewrite what I have posted and then raise a question. Perhaps you are a confused person.

You believe like the mob that Pakistan military is made up of and controlled by Punjabis only. What about the Pashtoons, the Sindhis and the Baluchis, are they not in the military? you do not have to raise the question of professionalism about the fighting force of Pakistan military, some of its generals have proven to be incompüetent field commanders, so says defunkt general musharaf, but not the battalion commandres and the sepoys as you call them. They are highly disciplined like the military should be, otherwise they would not have surrendered against the Indian military in Bengal? The british and the American Generals have now a great regard about the professionalism of the Pak military. Infact their respect would increase if they were to shoot down by mistake some of the drones and the helicopters in the Pashtoon territory.

They still need to be restructured and not become the tool for use against the citizens on the orders of the civilian Govt. This is their weakness and in my can only be overcome by restructing the military and he laws of the country. The soldiers should be able to obey the illegal orders, this is not yet the case in Pakistan nor in India.

Rex Minor

Posted by pakistan | Report as abusive

Rex and Rehmat:
Remember one thing, the ISI has a considerable number of Pushtoon officers and as we know clearly it had seperate wings looking after India and Afghanistan operations. The reason is that Pushtoon officers speak the language of Af-Pak border region and well aware with the history, culture of those people and sometimes belong to that tribes with relations etc. Coming to the question of professionalism, Pakistan Army recently won the Cambrian Patrol exercise and came first ahead of British and Canadian Army, this should be enough to reflect the professionalism of Pakistan Army.
Lastly, keep in mind that an SPD (Strategic Plans Division) is in place with a Lt. Gen as its Director General. In addition the Army Strategic Force Command handles the nuclear weapons as well as missile systems to deliver those. The SPD has defined some vague thresholds under which it could launch a nuclear strike against India. I reckon there could be any number of Pushtun Punjabi Baluchi or Sindhi officers/men in this circle (SPD/Strategic Force Command). The operations of SPD are run in a professional manner, under clearly defined objectives and mechanisms to deal with a given situation. I have no doubt as to who ever is under control, if the circumstances required a certain action to be taken it would be taken.

And Rex, let me be clear, drones make situation worse, PAF chief had stated PAF could shoot down the drones on govt. orders. Also an incursion by US helicopters resulted in cross border fire exchange with US/NATO and closure of logistics supply to NATO for two weeks. Only after official apology by NATO and Pentagon in both Washington and Brussells led to opening of Af-Pak border. This shows that Pak govt. and Military are mindful not to instigate the Pushtoon region and flame another civil war. Right now military operations are carefully planned to deal with some elements holed up in Pushtoon region while the Army has clearly stated it has no enmity with the tribes and people there.

Posted by Umairpk | Report as abusive

Rex and Rehmat:
Remember one thing, the ISI has a considerable number of Pushtoon officers and as we know clearly it had seperate wings looking after India and Afghanistan operations. The reason is that Pushtoon officers speak the language of Af-Pak border region and well aware with the history, culture of those people and sometimes belong to that tribes with relations etc. Coming to the question of professionalism, Pakistan Army recently won the Cambrian Patrol exercise and came first ahead of British and Canadian Army, this should be enough to reflect the professionalism of Pakistan Army.
Lastly, keep in mind that an SPD (Strategic Plans Division) is in place with a Lt. Gen as its Director General. In addition the Army Strategic Force Command handles the nuclear weapons as well as missile systems to deliver those. The SPD has defined some vague thresholds under which it could launch a nuclear strike against India. I reckon there could be any number of Pushtun Punjabi Baluchi or Sindhi officers/men in this circle (SPD/Strategic Force Command). The operations of SPD are run in a professional manner, under clearly defined objectives and mechanisms to deal with a given situation. I have no doubt as to who ever is under control, if the circumstances required a certain action to be taken it would be taken.

And Rex, let me be clear, drones make situation worse, PAF chief had stated PAF could shoot down the drones on govt. orders. Also an incursion by US helicopters resulted in cross border fire exchange with US/NATO and closure of logistics supply to NATO for two weeks. Only after official apology by NATO and Pentagon in both Washington and Brussells led to opening of Af-Pak border. This shows that Pak govt. and Military are mindful not to instigate the Pushtoon region and flame another civil war. Right now military operations are carefully planned to deal with some elements holed up in Pushtoon region while the Army has clearly stated it has no enmity with the tribes and people there.

Posted by Umairpk | Report as abusive

@Umair
No one could have explained it better.

Rex Minor

Posted by pakistan | Report as abusive

PS

I have a solution for drones, Pakistan should not squak, protest or accept apologies, but shoot ddown the intruders. The nationality of the introders and the exchange of appologies could be established later on. Pakistan military chief has once again damaged the credibility of the military as awhole. Pakistan Govt. must also establish as to how many of its generals are now on the CIA payroll. Wikileak could assist and the individual private citizens from switzerland and lichtenstein could provide, against a reasonable sum, the names and the sums of Pakistanis who have accounts in the mentioned countries. Botth German and French Govts have purchased the info about their citizens.

Remember Mao’s saying, America is a paper tiger!

Rex Minor

Posted by pakistan | Report as abusive

I do not have any special hatred towards Pakistan or Pakistanis. Typically when people run out of counter points, they tend to rely on this accusation or start chest thumping about having the world’s most powerful military, nukes, strategies, invincible Pashtuns etc. The problem is these things do not scare me.

I am trying to understand the overall background of everything that has happened in South Asia. Certain things do not make sense to me. And I believe that these illogical issues are the real reason behind all the ills we all are collectively suffering from.

Patriotism is easy to generate. You draw an arbitrary boundary around a region. Create a head of state and a military to protect that boundary. No one will want to give that up. Any differences and issues will keep the people united against those outside of the boundary.

Think of it. Kuwait was once a part of the region that became Iraq. Today, no Kuwaiti will want to merge back. They are the same people. They speak the same language. They belong to the same religion. The 1991 war happened to liberate Kuwait.

If Islamic Ummah is one nation, I do not understand the existence of Saudi Arabia, UAE, Qatar, Iraq, Kuwait, Egypt, Algeria, Libya, Somalia, Yemen, Syria, Jordan, Turkey, Afghanistan, Pakistan, Bangladesh, Central Asian nations, Malaysia, Brunei, Indonesia etc.. They do have borders don’t they? Saudi Arabia has the US military to protect itself from Iran and Iraq. Kurdish rebels have been brutally oppressed by Turkey and by Saddam Hussein.

Islamic Ummah is only something to be used whenever non-Muslims are involved. It is a uniting factor against others. This is much like the idea of Pakistan. It becomes united only in the case of “others”. Otherwise they slaughter each other, despite being all Muslims. We saw it in 1971. We see it inside Pakistan today where Muslims are blowing up other Muslims. So where is this Ummah?

All we see is a bunch of tribes and a military trying to manipulate them? Is this what Jinnah wanted? He formed a nation for Muslims and then declared that, “A Hindu will cease to be a Hindu, a Muslim will cease to be a Muslim,” in the nation of Pakistan. That makes absolutely no sense. India has the same ideals. So what is the difference? Have the lives of Pakistanis become better because they formed a nation for themselves? I am not advocating the reunification of India and Pakistan. I am just trying to understand the fundamental premise of it all.

All I am seeing is Pakistan being a very important geo-strategic nation for containing the Russians. This makes me to conclude that it was created mainly for that purpose and not for the benefit of Muslims. If we look at the history of Pakistan, we see no betterment of Muslim lives there. No one has paid any attention to it. All we see is the propping up of a military over decades that is brokering deals with the powers outside and acting as a middle man between them and the tribes inside. They have done nothing else. There has never been any attempts to build a normal nation. All feudal lords have dual citizenship in UK and Pakistan. UK is their second home. They have clout over British politicians and media. There is a lot of sympathy in UK for Pakistan even now. No one really cares for the people in the region. It is only strategic partnerships.

I do browse international dailies like The Guardian, Reuters etc.. The pro-Pakistani bias is loud and clear. And this comes from the old cold war day alliance. Even here, one can see persistent sympathy for Pakistan while ignoring all its nefarious activities. I am watching everything to understand the overall reasons.

After the defeat of the USSR in 1988, Pakistan’s geo-strategic value has disappeared. The US “abandoned the place.” Many Pakistanis still complain about it. They would have liked to leave it at that. But Al Qaeda drew them back into the region. They are here to snuff out Al Qaeda. And Pakistan has realized that it needs its geo-strategic importance badly in order to survive. As a result, it has shielded Al Qaeda and dragged this war. And to fight the war, the US has to rely on Pakistan for supply routes. Al Qaeda has replaced the USSR as the villain. Thus as I see it, Pakistan has replaced one villain with another and has begun to play the big powers to its advantage.

This way its military gets to keep all the power, get all the modern weapons, get all the money and keep conflicts alive. Which military does not like wars and conflicts? So Pak military has set up new flares and the world is trying to snuff it out.

The bottom line, as I see it, is this – Pakistan was created by the old British empire to contain Russians. The British empire disappeared. The new power, the US, saw a similar advantage of Pakistan. With India declining US overtures, there was no choice. If India had taken the American alliance, Pakistan would have taken the Russian ones, making the whole geo-strategic plan useless. Until cold war ended, no one cared about Pakistan being a nation for Muslims. It was only perceived as a nation that would act as strategic ally against the Russians. But Pakistan had its own long term plans. Its military realized that the only way to survive in the long run, beyond the Americans is to position itself in the middle of two powers at all times and play them against each other. While playing the role of middle man for the cold war powers, it also got itself into the China-India rivalry. And by housing Al Qaeda and Taliban it is playing the powers even more.

Pakistan’s military has become used to being a double agent. It is manipulating everyone, including its people. Where is the question of nation for Muslims here? All I see is one strategy replacing another.

Posted by KPSingh01 | Report as abusive

KpSingh:
Now I really think you have lost your mind, Pakistan was created in 1947 to be used as a bulwark against the communists in 1988? How ignorant can you be? I told you Pakistan is a very important and unique country. The west has not forgotten the termendous role Pakistan played in helping defeat communism. general Zia played a very calculated risk, he kept the Afghan war pot boiling at the right temperature, not overboiling and keeping enough support to avoid direct confrontation with soviet Union.
Today, infact Pakistan’s importance as a Muslim country has increased even further. It is a country that is home to Nukes and Al-Qaeda is trying to find a refuge here. It is in the interest of Pakistan and the west that Pakistan remains united, strong and capable to deal with the security challenges it faces. How willing is India to make that job easier?

Though I agree with you that often Muslim Ummah is divided on issues. But leaders of Arab nations new generation (King Abdullah Jordan- President Bashar Asad- Syria- The Nahyan ruling family in UAE- King Abdullah- Saudi Arabia- Emir Hamad Bin KHlifa in Qatar etc) are in favour of Islamic unity and Arab unity. Lately Qatar has displayed great diplomacy and leadership and help defuse a political crisis and deadlock in Lebanon by inviting their leaders to Doha in a peace conference. OIC maybe a weak platform but it is still there to be used as a medium among the Muslim nations to connect with each other. Even the leaders of Shia Iran and sunni Saudi Arabia have exchanged visits to each other’s country to build the unity among Muslims of various sects.

Posted by Umairpk | Report as abusive

Rex Minor

Pakistan Army carried out firing drills to take out moving targets with SAMs-Surface to air missiles, similarly this year PAF conducted its on exercises. PAF chief last year stated that Pakistan has the capability to shoot doen drones, also a former Army chief demanded from the government that Pakistan Military be given the go ahead to shoot down intruding drones and helicopters on the western border.
However, the issue is of sensitive nature. the government is not in a position to directly confront the super power, but i guess Pakistan has a history of super power interference in its neighbourhood. And to me it seems Pakistan is very well experienced in how to deal with that.

Posted by Umairpk | Report as abusive

Umairpk,

Don’t kid yourself, dont ever kid yourself. Pakistan has not ever confronted a superpower one on one. You have fuel for 1-2 weeks. Yes, you have nxkes, but they cannot help you. It is not so much that your government cannot confront a superpower, your Pak Army cannot confront a superpower. Until now, all your Army has done is been a mercenary for hire, and bows in the face of extreme might.

Pak Army will never have a choice to confront a superpower, so it will always yield and bow before its masters and try to take as much cash in the process, while subverting democracy and the judiciary.

Pakistani Armt has experience playing tag, footsie and backdoor lies against the U.S. Make no mistake about it, if Iraq is any indication, that is what awaits any fools that dare challenge the might of the U.S. Iraq only saw a mere fraction of the U.S. might. Do you think in a protracted conflict, that Pakistan would stand any chance of winning anything?

Again, i keep telling you that you are on the wrong side. You need to be your own man and tear down those man crush Pak Army posters you have in your abode, they are obviously making your Euphoric with some sort of strange excitement, known only to you.

Pakistan is becoming more and more irrelevant as the leader of Muslim countries. It will be Turkey or Malaysia, NOT Pakistan.

Malaysia has taking the steps necessary to remove itself of militants and used extreme force to destroy them, please take note of that. Turkey is probably of the most utmost importance to western nations for too many reasons to list here.

Pakistan is a leader in the production of terrorism, in that regards, most muslim countries will never regard Pakistan as a leader in anything, except extorting cash, and trouble making and starting trouble with a neighbour that wants peace. As far as peace making with UN, that is merely lip service, your country is busy creating Kashmiri militants.

Posted by G-W | Report as abusive

Umair:
Thank you.

@Rex
“You believe like the mob that Pakistan military is made up of and controlled by Punjabis only.”
***More BS from you as usual. I do not shoot crap when I write. It took me just few minutes to find out that Punjabis and Pushtoons represent the majority of PA, Punjabis being the highest. Pushtoon soldiers and officers who speak local languages are needed for fighting war against terrorists in those areas, as Umair explained. My question had nothing to do with this.

I ignore your remaining useless bytes.

Posted by rehmat | Report as abusive

Umairpk: “Now I really think you have lost your mind, Pakistan was created in 1947 to be used as a bulwark against the communists in 1988? How ignorant can you be?”

I have not lost my mind. What is important is that you have exhibited your complete ignorance of world history. I don’t think you are seeing anything beyond what is specific to Pakistan.

Let us go a bit more backward in time. The British hurriedly tried to conquer the regions that make up present day Pakistan in the 1800s. They could not make their move so long as Ranjit Singh was alive. He had a very modern military that could stand up to the imperial forces. So they waited until he died. Punjab came under British rule. Then Sindh was captured. Once this region was under control, Britain desperately tried to get Afghanistan. Their anxiety was due to the presence of imperial Russia. I am not talking about the Communist Russia that you know as the USSR. This is even before that. The British and the Russian empires were playing each other off in Bosphorus near Turkey, Crimea, Eastern parts of Siberia etc. Afghanistan under British control would prevent the Russian empire from reaching the Arabian sea which the British navy controlled.

The British did manage to get into Afghanistan for a short period of time. But the Afghans slaughtered all the British and sent just one man back to give the message. Afghanistan is one place the mighty British empire did not succeed in conquering.

Fast forward to 1947. The British empire was ending. Germans had been defeated. The powers immediately prepared for the next big confrontation – the USSR. Central Asian republics were already under the Soviets. Afghanistan was the next bet.

Now look at the picture from this scenario. You are a high official in the British empire. You do not know if your country is going to remain a super power or not. You do believe that your country is going to be a major global player for a long time to come. It is now your responsibility to make sure that your enemy does not gain against your national interests. You realize that India is revolting and asking you to leave. You know that the Indians will never help contain the Russians and might even become their allies. That is a dreadful thing. What do you do for the best long term strategic interests?

You look around and see one Muslim lawyer who is struggling to gain dominance in the Indian congress party. You set him off and turn him loose. You make sure that he gains. If he sets off violence, allow him to control it and do nothing. Let the Indians fight amongst themselves. Create a buffer state that will separate the Indians from Afghanistan. Create enough enmity and mistrust between this buffer state and the filthy Indians. Now this buffer state will try to protect its sovereignty. That makes it easy to control.

Pakistan, as I see it, was not created for Muslims. It is a clear and clever British strategy to prevent the then imperial power like Russia from running over the region that was once under the British. Of course the British empire disappeared soon. But the Russian threat remained. And the new super power walked in and followed into the foot steps of the British. The US did seek India’s alliance before that. Indian PM was adamant about not falling into any group at that time.

A lot of things that happen appear to be based on some local issue that have been lingering. But sometimes they get magnified many times over by a global geo-politics. My cousin was a part of the IPKF mission in Sri Lanka. He used to say something very interesting about the Tamil problem there. The Tamils and the Sinhalese have more than a thousand years of enmity between them, much like Pakistanis and Indians today. The US was seeking a base in a place called Triconamilee in Sri Lanka. India was a USSR ally by this time. This was early 1980s. India’s strategic thinkers acted on this immediately. Suddenly the riots and ethnic cleaning erupted against Tamils in 1983. India basically controlled the civil war until Sri Lanka was quite emasculated. The US decided to set up its base in Diego Garcia.
Now the US and India have cozied up with each other. And guess what? The Tamil rebels have been crushed and buried.

Local fumes get turned into scorching flames by global powers. My attempts to understand the passionate local conflicts and the support some groups get at the cost of others is interesting. Now try to understand Kashmir conflict, its lack of resolution etc from what I have presented.

We all have been manipulated. And we have not learned a thing from it.

Posted by KPSingh01 | Report as abusive

Singh

The Great game was all about controlling Central Asia: Brits vs Soviets (Tsars). That was the precise reason why British entered Afghanistan: to avoid Soviets engulf India. This can be one of the reasons that Brits allowed Pakistan, rather helped its delivery into the world. But it is arguable as it happens with these scenarios. A Pakistani heart will not accept a sacred Pakistan to be a cunning scheme of Brits. Let us put it this way it was so British thing to do. These guys think 50years ahead of time.

Posted by rehmat | Report as abusive

@Umair
Pakistan does not have to confront any super power. They just have to protect its borders.
The border guards warning shots towards the USA helicoprters was a foolish act and resulted in their deaths; this was also a serious error of communication and fool hardy to regard any intruder as a friend.

The USA is not an ally of Pakistan and has the history of renegating on its military pacts.
Pakistan should also be aware that the USA main interest in Afghanistan was to encircle the new super power China. Not the AlQuaeda or the taliban crap, these bogus monsters were the brainwork of the Think Tank, a pretext to demonstrate USA power in the subcotinent and to assure its asian allies who were worried about their long term security.
I am sorry to mention that Pakistan status in the world declined under mr Musharaf, and its current leadership, both civilian as well as military is of sub-standard quality, not accustomed to international dealings.

The balance of power in the world is fast shifting and the decline of USA is occuring faster than I had estimated. Neither George nor Barrack could obtain any relief for the uneployed at home from India which is now the main outsouce supplier for the USA. This was not the time to develope relations with the power which is rapidly declining.

It is a matter of time when the world credit rating agencies, located in the USA, would be compelled to downgrade the USA, which is still borrowing 40 cents from the dollar they spend and not showing any signs of stopping the overspend.

Rex Minor

Posted by pakistan | Report as abusive

Rehmat,

I am glad Khalistan did not happen. Otherwise there will be another country being manipulated by Pakistan’s military with its barrel pointed at Chandigarh.

India’s division of East Pakistan was a geo-strategic move. It was timed perfectly and executed with precision. I am sure the Bengalis are happy for that. The British left all North Eastern states as part of India and insurgency there started right after independence. Keeping an eastern wing of Pakistan would have been a plan to keep India at bay by threatening its North Eastern parts. I guess the British calculated that it was only a matter of time before India would splinter up into smaller warring states. Nehru probably was aware of this. That was probably one reason why he tried to create a neutral block of non-aligned nations.

Now that the countries have been formed, it is fruitless telling them not to be patriotic. Two generations have passed by since independence and the new generations only know the current reality. And they have every right to defend their nations and feel for them. My analysis has been the main reason why this region has been such a quagmire. There is no way I can prove any of my thesis. But I read the symptoms and the various contexts of history to understand the underlying reasons.

Posted by KPSingh01 | Report as abusive

Rex

I absolutely agree with you word for word, as for Pakistan’s current military leadership Gen. Kayani has been in extensive contacts with US and NATO with multiple visits to Washington and Brussells as well as other trips to for example Australia. Certainly he is coming upto speed and as far as civil govt. is concerned yes i agree they need to get their act straight. I also agree as well that America is at the cross roads, I have followed the tea party Glen Beck rallies and the liberals rally to restore sanity and/or fear. This is an era of divisive bipartisan politics in America, the economic outlook is not positive either. The country is facing increased isolation reflected in G20 summit in Korea recently, US can no longer dictate terms as once it could. But you must understand Pakistan’s inherent weaknesses vis-a-vis geography (hostile India and unfriendly unstable Afghanistan) lack of strategic depth, need of unconventional weapons for national security etc, need of a super power patron and backing for economic assistance in absence of a strong economy.
If America has a clean agenda, Pakistan should have no problem supporting it as long as the alliance benefits Pakistan as well.

Posted by Umairpk | Report as abusive

KPSingh:

Here you go again, it is very intriguing to see you been a sikh and so much paranoid about Pakistan that now you think that East Pakistan was created out of India’s Northeast by the British deliberately to later manipulate India’s internal situation. This is too much of a thesis, I don’t get it maybe you can be right.

BTW, did you read the book by Jaswant Singh regarding Jinnah in which he blamed some of leaders from Indian (hindu ) congress side of alienating Jinnah which led to creation of Pakistan. Don’t blame everyhting on the British man, come on!

Posted by Umairpk | Report as abusive

Umair

Going back to my earlier post, do you think Pakistan should not have boycotted India as a member of OIC since Indian Muslims would have benefited from being part of the OIC? India was left out at the behest of Yahya Khan in 1969, despite so many Muslims in India.

I have heard the talk of Pakistan having a unique position for protecting Muslim countries since it got nuclear bomb. Ironically, Indian Muslims face threat from this bomb since Pakistani nukes are pointed at India.

Posted by rehmat | Report as abusive

@KPSingh
very good line of thoughts. Anything about the anglo saxon(Brits and the USA) is gullible and is now known to all europe. Only one question, why did you leave the part of congress in the act? You most probably know that Nehru family had close relations with the Queen family and congress party was regarded as the most obedient followers of the Brits., not the muslim league who later went for a separate home land, without probably realising that the plot was hatched by the brits.

Rex Minor

Posted by pakistan | Report as abusive

@KPSingh
Your Nov 14 post. Islamic Ummah is one nation, then why different muslim countries.

Ummah is not against the non muslims, it simply means that if the muslims are being persecuted on account of their religion, i.e., belief of one God, then it becomes incumbant on other muslims to render assistance. The christians and the jews have similar rules.

In my view this is gradually becoming irrelevant since the world has come to recognise the human rights for all people of the world and also render support for the oppressed people. The communists as well as Indian caste system still falls short in this, and the world Govts. as well as the UNO is working on this though very slowly.

Rex Minor

Posted by pakistan | Report as abusive

@Ummair

The problem with the military is that they are trained to take orders and by the time they become senior officers, they do not have the intellect of a politician which one needs in the modern complex world. They also cave in against a superior force without a fight. Unfortunately for the country Pakistan has demonstrated these features. Pakistan military is also being used against its own citizens, since it has the colonial structure, and is also used to shooting in their own legs, weakening their own strategic reserves. Though I have the feeling now that they are currently taking the back seat in their adventure against the regular Pashtoon tribes.
The Pashtoon structures,their psyche and the combat capability cannot be assessed by the non Pashtoons. It would be fatal for Pakistan military if they were to show weakness against the foreign intruders.

Let us not forget that Pakistan Nukes were not developed for the deterrance purpose but to take the initiative when the enemy shows belligerence. I have the feeling now that the military probably regard them as a deterrance against the potential enemy. This would be a great error. None of the world nuclear states follow this doctrine, though their public statements mention it.

Rex Minor

Posted by pakistan | Report as abusive

@Pakistan, Umair,

Should I make up ONE name for you two?

You guys must have lived without oxygen or fresh air for too long, or something, you full well know that Pakistan cannot shoot down the drones, that is a quiet arrangement, while Pakistani Generals get their bi-weekly paycheques. Any shooting down of drones, will precipitate behind the scenes disaster for the Fauji’s in Pakistan. There are only so many cigarettes they can smoke in the waking hours, please don’t make them lose any more sleep.

“Let us now forget that P. Nxkes were ….developed for…initiative when the enemy shows belligerence.

–>So…are you suggesting that Pakistan pre-emptively nxke somebody here, if there are obstacles? please be specifically clear, or are you advocating nxklear blackmail?…..Think carefully and answer carefully…no backpeddling please.

Your comments are highly irresponsible, not to mention an affront to Pakistani’s, or any citizens. Such an act, as you suggest would bring many innocent people to a fiery end. You can be rest assured, as the exchanges happen, the grossly overpaid cowardly generals will be hiding safely underground or leaving the country.

With regards to the Pashtoons, Pakistani Army cannot beat them, they bow to them and help them, because they cannot control nor gain their respect. Pashtoons, you have to agree, do not like nor respect cowards. They will still respect and like an enemy that keeps fighting.

With regards to Ummah, muslims are not being persecuted due to their religion, that is a false myth that some propagate to politically unify muslims, because they have no other legitimate tool to use other than propagating false myths to hijack the psyche of innocent, uninformed muslims.

@Umair, with regards to Jaswant singh and Ummah, partitioning of Pakistan

It is probably good that Pakistan was formed. The world did not want to stand by and watch a violent creed re-impose its self-made supremacy over the majority Hindus. There would have been multi-generational bloodshed on scale never seen. In that regards, for the sake of humanity, it was better that muslims who hated hindus, leave and have their own country. Let’s just leave it at that. Hindus greatly suffered immmensely for hundreds of years, genocides and persecution first by the Moghuls, then by the colonialists. Much of the Hindus slaughter has been well chronicalled by Islamic Scholars, but I am sure, it has been all but removed or erased even from sanitized pakistani history books.

On that note, I don’t advocate re-integration with India, I think India does not stand to gain anything by re-integrating. That same message goes out to backwards Indian extremists, as well. India has done well on its own politically and economically, because the obstructions of the potential of sectarian war have been averted, for the most part and given way to a democratic India, that is productive, and respected by the West, on its own developed merits, if the last visit by Obama is any indication.

With regards to partitioning, Indians DO NOT WANT Pakistan to collapse, nor do want it to partition. I know that all lot of people here say it out of frustration, because Pakistani’s are not providing any solutions, therefore outsiders feel that they should impose solutions to Pakistani’s crisis. Indians DO WANT a cohesive and unified Pakistan, that is non-threatening and non-violent, that is what we want at the end of the day, no more terrorist training camps and no more low-level assymetrical warfare. As an Indian, let me tell you, I want you to keep your country intact, I want it to progress and modernize, I do not want war on your country. Your Fauji’s are forcing outsiders to keep an aggressive stance on your nation. It is not the doing of the U.S. or the Indians, your Faujis’ have created a nice business niche of Kashmiri war with Indians and aiding and abetting the enemy of allies. I hope your people will awake from this slumber and take control of their country in a nationalistic fervor to embrace a democratic, modern and progressive Pakistan, all Indians want a stable pakistan.

As I said earlier Umair, you should be your own man, Faujis’ have much industry and can put more people to work and economically profit, if they choose to expand and manufacture for the west and build an economic union. All of this warfare against India and the west has brought misery to Pakistan, nothing good or redeeming.

Posted by G-W | Report as abusive

Singh

“I am glad Khalistan did not happen. Otherwise there will be another country being manipulated by Pakistan’s military with its barrel pointed at Chandigarh.”

***Khalistan was a close call. Pakistan almost did it. India should still be careful. As long as Sikh community in Punjab is satisfied, nothing will happen. Indian govt should be careful. More than half the problem is created at home, foreign hands just use the opportunity: Kashmir and Punjab/India (Pak took advantage), and Bangladesh (India took advantage).

Posted by rehmat | Report as abusive

Umairpk: “Here you go again, it is very intriguing to see you been a sikh and so much paranoid about Pakistan that now you think that East Pakistan was created out of India’s Northeast by the British deliberately to later manipulate India’s internal situation. This is too much of a thesis, I don’t get it maybe you can be right.”

Global geo-politics has far reaching effects. Everything is not spelled out in the open. The ulterior motives behind many moves made are always hidden and on the exterior things have a different appearance. I have read that the Apartheid regime in South Africa was driven and sustained by one diamond company – De Beers. They needed access to the diamonds and the labor to go with it. Even now people talk about Oil pipelines being the main reason for all the issues in Afghanistan. All the talk of freedom and rights by the American politicians during the cold war era were driven by business interests more than anything else. You can read the trend to understand this. If communists take over many parts of the world, that market is closed for business. How can you run multi-national enterprise if state run enterprises are selling out dated items at discount price in those countries? Communism itself was only a principle. Wherever communist governments ruled, it was basically dictatorships or autocracies. Communism kept everything poor and backward and those in power could keep it for as long as they wished. You have watch the trends. The same US that preached rights and freedom to people, supported military coups, dictatorships, genocidal regimes and destroyed normal nations. What is preached and what is followed are not consistent. Therefore the underlying cause is deep and not visible. Religion, ethnicity, language, race etc are the means by which control is exercised from afar. These are the fuel used to turn smoke into conflagration.

The British were adept at turning local issues for their political gains and control. If you see it from this angle, you will realize that selfish leaders made the most of it by becoming the agents for these powers. Let me know what your opinion of Slobodan Milasovich (sic) is.

“BTW, did you read the book by Jaswant Singh regarding Jinnah in which he blamed some of leaders from Indian (hindu ) congress side of alienating Jinnah which led to creation of Pakistan. Don’t blame everyhting on the British man, come on!”

Jaswant Singh is a politician and he will sell his mother if he can gain from it. This is the guy who flew to Afghanistan and handed off two of the worst terrorists to the Taliban. Even Advani has praised Jinnah. That does not mean anything.

Congress party started in the 1860s after the Sepoy Mutiny by Alan Octavian Hume and a few other Indians. Mr. Jinnah was a member of that party as well and went up the ranks. There is nothing wrong in political rivalry. Everyone thinks he is the leader and he knows how to do things. If Jinnah was right in thinking that way, so was Nehru. This does not mean that Jinnah had to go off tangentially and form a movement for separation. He just looked around and picked up the Muslim cause and the British exploited it. Political alienation is normal. Leaders fight each other within a system. They form their own parties. But forming a nation is a big thing. One has to think of the consequences of such actions in the long run. Selfish politicians do not care about those things. They let things burn if that helps to their advantage. Mr. Advani is one such leader. He used anti-Muslim psyche to burn the country and gained from it short term. Now he is on a political decline as the Indian voter has rejected such moves.

You need to see the broader picture and see what you can do to avoid being used as a pawn.

Posted by KPSingh01 | Report as abusive

rehmat: “Khalistan was a close call. Pakistan almost did it. India should still be careful. As long as Sikh community in Punjab is satisfied, nothing will happen. Indian govt should be careful. More than half the problem is created at home, foreign hands just use the opportunity: Kashmir and Punjab/India (Pak took advantage), and Bangladesh (India took advantage).”

Therefore it is not religion or ethnicity or language or race. It is political motive to gain control. Emotional issues are manipulated by vested groups to gain advantage. Therefore it does not justify forming nations based on religion or ethnicity or language or whatever. Because human beings will divide further. The glorious Islamic paradise of Pakistan, created for the welfare of all Muslims, had the worst genocide in South Asia when language became the bone of contention. Now Shias are getting attacked. Ahmadis are getting killed. Sufi followers are being attacked. Where is Islam in any of these? Look at where one man’s power ambitions and the geo-political machinations of a past empire have led to.

Posted by KPSingh01 | Report as abusive

Singh

“Therefore it is not religion or ethnicity or language or race. It is political motive to gain control. Emotional issues are manipulated by vested groups to gain advantage. Therefore it does not justify forming nations based on religion or ethnicity or language or whatever.”
***I fully agree with you. Religion can be used to whip people into frenzy making them blind to reason or it can help people live a normal peaceful life.

Jinnah can be credited for the conception, not upbringing, of Pakistan. Pakistan still could have become a different country than what it is now.

Posted by rehmat | Report as abusive

rehmat: “Jinnah can be credited for the conception, not upbringing, of Pakistan.”

I would rank Jinnah along with Advani, Bal Thackeray, Narendra Modi, some of the Dravidian leaders in the South, Slobodan Milosevic of Serbia etc. These are self serving, power crazy politicians who can manipulate emotions to their advantage and turn people against each other. Most of the time their desires lead to massive scale of violence and unrest using which they leverage their opponents. The sub-continent is one of the worst hot spots on earth because of Jinnah’s legacy.

I would never credit these politicians with anything.

Posted by KPSingh01 | Report as abusive

@GW
No country in the world has nuclear weapons for a retaliatory strike against another nuclear armed state. Both India and Pakistan possess the nukes for first strike only, it would be impossible for any one to be able to retaliate! Did you get it ? Not yet, o’k let us try again;

During the cuban crisis both the yanks and the soviets were on the brink to simultaneously attack each other cities, thereby eliminating each other from the map. Did you get it, if not please let me rest and tell why is it so difficult for many of you not to understand simple and straightward lines and start a debate. Has the Indian and pakistan Govtsd. not informed its citizens about the consequences of carrying such a large stock of nuclier armed missiles.

These tools act as a deterrant against the non nuclear states, but not agaionst the nuclear armed countries. Did you get it now, if not then please let me have a pause, I am very tired now.

Rex Minor

Posted by pakistan | Report as abusive

@Singh,

I still remember those days in the 80′s, even some of my personal Sikh friends, I have known since childhood were acting in a aggressive tone towards me, because that is what their parents were discussing at the dinner table.

It was extremely racist in nature, as I had faced racism from white people, but never had I thought in a million years, from my own people, even though I was hindu, I did not see myself as different than Sikh.

I was jeered at, insulted and threatened by my childhood Sikh friends, then the carpet got pulled out from under them, as the corruption, filth and lies of the Khalistan movement started to reveal themselves one by one, including the Air India bxmbing and much of the Sikh community was left gasping at how the wind was taken out of the sails. It was apparent that many Sikhs were deceived by the opportunistic nature of the Khalistan movement, as many so-called freedom fighters were getting rich off this, taking much gold and money from the temples. Some of the temples were even infiltrated by the intelligence agencies by white caucasians posing as Sikh converts. It started to become clearer and clear that the Sikh religion was being hijacked by an outside force, bent not so much on helping the Sikhs, but using a filthy few Sikhs against their own people, in an unsuspecting manner. Many believed their lies and blindly followed and when the curtain was lifted, they could not believe the depth of the lies and disappointment that they felt. Most mainstream Sikhs do not ascribe to this separatist thinking anymore, as most Sikhs today are in a different place, both socially and economically.

In retrospect, I have never kept any negative feelings towards my friends. Friends can make mistakes and we should always forgive. For many things that were said and happened, friendship is much stronger than all of that. Sikhs are the lions of India and will never fall prey ever again to opportunists from Pakistan who seek to use and whore them in this manner. Sikhs have held their head high and moved on and so has the rest of India, lest we forget the horrible days of Operation blue star, which should be a reminder that Democracy and civility is precious and those that do not have it, always try to destroy it and bring innnocent people down in the process. The indian government has also come a long way, as we now have a Sikh Prime Minister.

@Rex Minor, sorry if it dissappoints you that India is becoming stronger as a union, you seem perturbed that so many millions of people are getting along, it really seems to rattle you. Perhaps you should leave your comfortable home in germany and live with the Pashtoons, you won’t survive a week in Afghanistan.

Posted by G-W | Report as abusive

pakistan: “No country in the world has nuclear weapons for a retaliatory strike against another nuclear armed state. Both India and Pakistan possess the nukes for first strike only, it would be impossible for any one to be able to retaliate!”

How do you come up with brilliant theories like these? Nuclear armed states can strike each other. They have worked out many scenarios about command structures during a nuclear confrontation. And missiles and fighter planes are kept ready and alert at all times. Satellites are watching every move. Any first strike can be met with retaliation within minutes. Of course it won’t stop with just one exchange. It will continue on until all supplies are exhausted. At that time, it will all depend upon how much of land mass can survive and recover from radiation hazard. It all depends on who makes the first move. In the case of India and Pakistan, both nations are watching each others’ moves. The only worry many nations have with Pakistan now is the chance of the nukes falling into the wrong hands. A civil war inside Pakistan can increase the potential for that. The militancy inside Pakistan seems to be directed towards that. Within a couple of years, if things do not go checked, Pakistan will be in a terrible internal turmoil. Militancy that was confined to its NW provinces has come as far South as Karachi. It is only a matter of time before things get out of control. With increased pressure from the US, blow back will only intensify. You can comfortably sit in Germany and watch all the developments.

Posted by KPSingh01 | Report as abusive

@GW
If India can get out of the babylonian prison that its leaders have built for them, it would be good for the region. On the other hand if India is happy in the current situation, then good luck India, continue your progress and be happy. Do not bother your head trying to know my identity.

Rex Minor

Posted by pakistan | Report as abusive

RexMinor/Pakistan:

“@GW
No country in the world has nuclear weapons for a retaliatory strike against another nuclear armed state. Both India and Pakistan possess the nukes for first strike only, it would be impossible for any one to be able to retaliate! Did you get it ? Not yet, o’k let us try again;”

–>The straight forward line, Rex Minor, is that once one has nxclear weapons, they have a duty to act responsibly, not use nxclear weapons as a heel to foment assymetrical wars and terrorism on others. Pakistan never needed nxclear weapons against India, in the pre-nuclear age, between the two the many wars between Pakistan, and India, India had every chance to elevate the conflict and occupy Pakistan and even take land, if it wished, but India, always chose to withdraw, accept surrenders and return POW’s unharmed.

India has nxclear deterant against the Chinese, not against Pakistan. India has never had any plans, to attack or takeover Pakistan, why would we want to inherit a population that is unproductive and hateful towards us? there is not much in Pakistan that INdians would want.

Pakistan has made the nxkes out of its own damaged and bruised ego and as a tool to back its aggressive aposturing towards India, in the hopes of stealing and clawing land away from India.

Everytime Pakistan starts losing the wars, that they start, you know how it always ends and will end?…..they start assembling their warheads onto rockets as a parting gift, if they lose wars that they start…You seem to be an advocate of criminal and bad behavior.

The U.S. pre-emptively nxked the Japanese, because the war planners ran the numbers and in a conventional ground war, the loss of U.S. Army lives would have run in the several hundreds of thousands and the U.S. public would not have stood for that. The Imperial Japanese of that time would have kept on fighting, despite the huge loss of life that they would have suffered as well.

Pakistan’s nxkes are developed out of a sense of entitlement to hurt India for dismembering Pakistan in 1971, during which Pakistan genocided 3 million humans.

Pakistani lovers have extremely short memories and never acknowledge that Pakistan was the starter of each and every war with India, and the loser. To pacify the shame and battered ego, it was necessary Bhutto felt to have the A-bxmb. Ever since then, the world, India have suffered at the hands of Pakistani terrorism, whether it was state sponsored or not, that is the final fact.

Then 911 happened, hashed on Pakistani soil. Pakistan is not delivering and aiding and abetting those that kill NATO soldiers, based on recent allegations by Richard Holbrooke on CNN GPS.

So, you tell me again, what pre-emptive nxclear action should Pakistan be taking and against what enemy, please clarify your position, you did a good job befuddling and diverting the issue and not answering, please this time answer, I grow tired of trying you hold you accountable to your words, it is like nailing jelly to the wall.

Posted by G-W | Report as abusive

@KPSingh
I reckon we have amply dealt with the nxke issue. Do not take note of the hollywood films or the american propaganda. They are already in dangerous hands on a standby basis!

The worrisome thing is the proliferation of material from the USA and Russia and the mishaps occurances in the nuclear plants for so called peaceful energy. This could prove to be very dangerous. we have lived with the after effects of chernobyl. Not to forget the disposal of the nxlear waste.
You seem to have the tendency to slip over the propaganda track of the radicals etc. etc.

Radicals do not use high tech arms, they just do a force aeroplane landing instead. Ummah is the most dangerous weapon since faceless radicals from places as far as chechenia and Indinesia could get involved in a conflict.
I can not recognise any unforeseen occurance in pakistan. I had forecast that if the PA does not stop its intrusion in the Pashtoon land, then, in the future no Govt. could rule the country without the blessing of the Pashtoons. This is precisely the situation. The Pashtoon facit, an eye for an eye, you know the ritual.

Rex Minor

Posted by pakistan | Report as abusive

@GW
Then do not try to nail the jelly. And live with your horor dreams and false accusations involving third countries. You are not commenting, but simply using this blog for false accusations.

Find some one else for your diabolics.

Rex Minor

Posted by pakistan | Report as abusive

Rex;
“Radicals do not use high tech arms, they just do a force aeroplane landing instead. Ummah is the most dangerous weapon since faceless radicals from places as far as chechenia and Indinesia could get involved in a conflict.”

***If those who forced plane into a building are part of Ummah (And what a name you gave for Ummah, a “weapon”!!) You agree with that “humble” FOX news talk show host “Bill o Reilly” who says the same thing and gets into trouble, he deserved.

Posted by rehmat | Report as abusive

pakistan: “I reckon we have amply dealt with the nxke issue. Do not take note of the hollywood films or the american propaganda. They are already in dangerous hands on a standby basis!”

Hollywood films on dangerous hands? Are you making any sense? What do Hollywood films have to do with nukes?

“The worrisome thing is the proliferation of material from the USA and Russia and the mishaps occurances in the nuclear plants for so called peaceful energy. This could prove to be very dangerous.”

The US and Russia, along with UK, France and Japan have one of the best nuclear safety and control systems in the world today. I don’t know about you, but the rest of the world is worried about nuke material and technology slipping out and spreading from countries like China, Pakistan, Iran and North Korea.

“we have lived with the after effects of chernobyl. Not to forget the disposal of the nxlear waste.
You seem to have the tendency to slip over the propaganda track of the radicals etc. etc.”

Chernobyl was an accident. No terrorist went in there and blew the place up. Accidents happen all the time – ships sink, planes crash, buildings collapse and dams break. We are not talking about such accidents. We are talking about criminals with deliberate intent getting access to dangerous matter like nukes.

“Radicals do not use high tech arms, they just do a force aeroplane landing instead.”

Isn’t a plane a hitech machine? Radicals learned how to fly a plane and then flew four of them towards targets in the US.

“Ummah is the most dangerous weapon since faceless radicals from places as far as chechenia and Indinesia could get involved in a conflict.”

In other words Ummah in today’s context can be classified as a terrorist network based on your description above.

“I can not recognise any unforeseen occurance in pakistan.”

Key nuke scientists working at Kahuta plant disappeared for some time and had made pilgrimage to meet with Osama Bin Laden prior to 9/11. When AQ Khan was singled out as the chief of nuclear proliferation, these scientists were placed under house arrest by the Pak military in the guise of questioning them. Reference – Nuclear Deception by Adrian Levy and Catherine Clark. A lot of things have happened about which you have no knowledge or awareness.

“I had forecast that if the PA does not stop its intrusion in the Pashtoon land, then, in the future no Govt. could rule the country without the blessing of the Pashtoons. This is precisely the situation. The Pashtoon facit, an eye for an eye, you know the ritual.”

Pashtuns are on Pak military’s dole. They rely on Pak military and the ISI for all the weapons logistics and training. It is the Pak military that controls them and not the other way around. And Pashtun land is divided between Afghanistan and Pakistan by an imaginary line drawn by a British guy in 1893. If your Pashtuns are so mighty, I wonder why they are following that division even now.

Posted by KPSingh01 | Report as abusive

“@GW
Then do not try to nail the jelly. And live with your horor dreams and false accusations involving third countries. You are not commenting, but simply using this blog for false accusations.

Find some one else for your diabolics.

Rex Minor”

–>You have tried to dodge the questions again and again. You made the original comments, now you have trouble explaining them and are resorting to personalized characterizations.

You made the initial assertion that Pakistan should use its arsenal for pre-emptive actions of some kind, and now that i have called you out on it, you are yellow and backpedaling.

I apologize if calling you out and singling you out on your disturbing comments, constitutes me as being “diabolical” or “accusatory”. In this regard, you fit right in, if you were a Paksitani Statesmen, or PA.

Thinly veiled assertions involving nxkes should always be called out, by everybody, as these types of actions you advocate are reckless and highly irresponsible.

It is you trying to use the blogs for advocation of anti-civilizational elements and anti-western sentiment. You seem to hate the west and empathize with anything that is anti-western.

You advocate freedom for Kashmiris from the green horned devil called India, but don’t think the Tibetans deserve freedom and don’t think Balochi’s deserve a voice and have not mentioned that Kashmiri’s in Pakistan occupied Kashmir deserve any voice.

I tried calling you out on this as well, but you seem think I am “confusing” the issue. I am sorry if you are confused, we all are, regarding your one-sided biased stances on almost everything, I am losing count.

Posted by G-W | Report as abusive

“@GW
If India can get out of the babylonian prison that its leaders have built for them, it would be good for the region. On the other hand if India is happy in the current situation, then good luck India, continue your progress and be happy. Do not bother your head trying to know my identity.

Rex Minor”

–>It is laughable that you can’t see where India was during partition and where it is today.

If you had even 1/10 of your cerebrum functioning at even marginal capacity and could comprehend and fathom the way in which India blew past Pakistan, in almost every regards, you would be advocating for pakistani’s to do what the Indians have done to progress so far in such a short time.

You might be reading clippings from 35 or 40 years ago, anyways, it does not matter. India is about to be offered a seat at the UNSC, within time, trade, security and political partnering with the west,and all such things are coming to fruition, despite that India was friends with old cold war enemies. Indians held steady, worked hard, were humble, had restraint, were militarily non-aggressive and it all paid off. Indians succeeded on their own merit and have gained prestige and respect, world wide.

A reasonable person would think that this is something to be impressed about. India is plural, secular and a young democracy, a special one with its own flavor, given all of its challenges, it is far from perfect. For numerous reasons, it is poised to overtake China in 25-35 years, as predicted by the most astute economists.

Despite all of that, you are uninmpressible.

If India is in a babylonian prison, the Pakistan must be sitting at the bottom of cliff, pushed by a dinosaur or a woolly mammoth. There really is no comparision, so please do not insult our neighbour.

The lens you view the world through are polarized and foggy, but you seem to be okay with that.

Posted by G-W | Report as abusive

Singh

““Ummah is the most dangerous weapon since faceless radicals from places as far as chechenia and Indinesia could get involved in a conflict.”

In other words Ummah in today’s context can be classified as a terrorist network based on your description above. ”

***I hope he is not serious, if he is. just ignore him. He does not know what he is talking about.

Posted by rehmat | Report as abusive

@rex
“Ummah is the most dangerous weapon since faceless radicals from places as far as chechenia and Indinesia could get involved in a conflict.”

Precisely. That’s what has made this world conflict as Muslim ‘Radicals’ vs Rest. This Ummah if is the ‘most dangerous’ weapon, your words not mine, then anyone using and/or praising it is definitely a monster and a threat to mankind.

Although personally I won’t agree with you on Ummah being a weapon. Its the people like you who put ‘label’ of ‘Muslim under threat’ on every other problem faced by muslims and try to make a ‘weapon’ out of ‘Ummah’ and hence create a grave threat to humanity. Why would anyone persecute muslims for being muslims?? I never get this false sense of victimhood among a small set of people (muslims specially) when any problem by the people is interpreted as ‘because of their religion’.

I would agree with Rehmat and Mortal that you need a mental checkup. People with thinking like yours are grave threat to humanity than anything else. Because on surface you talk of humanity and peace and deep inside you crave for Pashtoon the cruel, Ummah the Weapon, USA/USSR the satan, etc. etc. This is not how peace is achieved. You (radicals) cannot go on threatening everyone to meet all your illegal demands just because otherwise you will disrupt peace. Get your head checked up.

Posted by 777xxx777 | Report as abusive

@777
It matters not what you and I think about this world or label each other with names, the grount reality can not be ignored.
Those clever and people with an inferiority complex have a problem to swallow back the radical labels they allocated previously to the humans, and spread a paranoid in our times;

. axis of evil
. terrorists
. radical muslims
. Islamists
etc. etc.

Go back to sleep, the day light is visible on the horizon, yours is the world of darkness, not mine. Only people having the intellectual courage and belief in mataphysics and morality and ethics are going to restore order and balance in the civilised societies!

Rex Minor

Posted by pakistan | Report as abusive

@PS
correction, GROUND REALITY

Rex Minor

Posted by pakistan | Report as abusive

@Rex
“Go back to sleep, the day light is visible on the horizon, yours is the world of darkness, not mine”

Again nothing concrete from you, just more ridicule and gibberish.

“Only people having the intellectual courage and belief in mataphysics and morality and ethics are going to restore order and balance in the civilised societies”

And those are Pashtoons with A-Q (Al-Qaeda) ideology?

Posted by 007XXX | Report as abusive

Those clever and people with an inferiority complex have a problem to swallow back the radical labels they allocated previously to the humans, and spread a paranoid in our times;

. axis of evil
. terrorists
. radical muslims
. Islamists
etc. etc.

–>Rex, Minor, you can also add these words used by some to spread paranoia, in other parts of the world. We have ALL heard these before:

-Christian Crusaders
-Zionists
-Kaffirs
-heretics
-Infidel
-The Great Satan
-Munafiq
-Mushrekeen (religious deviants)

the list goes on and on…..but that does not mean that all people are racist, nor are the victims deserving of being labeled such things.

You see, there is ignorance on both sides and this is your great moral failing. You make everthing too on-sided and make one side into a victim. There are victors and victims on all sides, you are for some reason completely oblivious to all that.

All cultures have ignorance in them, it is not exclusive to one side or the other. I am glad that you are a part of the 21st century.

Posted by G-W | Report as abusive

On the topic of shame, I don’t have a word to describe the story below:

Justice, Pakistani citizen style:

http://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/world/ou tcry-over-death-sentence-for-blasphemy-m other-who-offered-farmhands-water-201011 12-17pri.html

Pope implores Pakistani to spare mother of young children.

I am lost for words.

Posted by G-W | Report as abusive

Rex

“Only people having the intellectual courage and belief in mataphysics and morality and ethics are going to restore order and balance in the civilised societies!”

***That’s a tall order from people with gun! Keep waiting.

Happy Eid!

Posted by rehmat | Report as abusive

@Rehmat
let us recognise the divine power in all occurances.

Happy Eid to you also!

Rex Milnor

Posted by pakistan | Report as abusive

@Rex

“let us recognise the divine power in all occurances.”

***Of course!

Peace!
Rehmat

Posted by rehmat | Report as abusive

Having gone through the article its comments and counter comments of my commenter friends reminded me of a thief after committing theft on way back met some simple persons and gave a religious sermon stating therein not to commit theft as it is a very bad sin and GOD will punish the person whoever commits theft.
I was amazed to find that in Twenty First Century sighting examples of shame of others forgetting those days when people did not have even the clothes to hide the Shame not only of the population but also the country during the Muslim and British rules.

Pakistan as an independent country came into being much later, to sight example before Partition came into being should be the shame of India not Pakistan. What about DNA change of the Rajputs and Hindus during the Mugals were not the generations of shame for India..

Probably drone attacks are not that shameful as handing over by the male members of the country of Rajput and Hindu women to undergo physical torture of shameful rape nights and days in and out by the Mugals and British. Is it not a distasteful and most disgusting shameful episode of the Indian Nation? Can this fact be erased? No, it cannot be as facts remain fresh as a bud under all conditions.
If weighed and measured India has more loathsome and shameful history than Pakistan. Indian hate against Muslim may be because of the DNA change during Muslim rule in India. Whatever Muslims left for its children in return is more than enough, which even to day India earns to because of those and feed its citizens. However, would no one call it a shame? No.

Posted by KINGFISHER | Report as abusive

@KINGFISHER

“Probably drone attacks are not that shameful as handing over by the male members of the country of Rajput and Hindu women to undergo physical torture of shameful rape nights and days in and out by the Mugals and British”

***Be sensible!

If anything of that sort happened at mass level that you seem to be indicating, it is EQUALLY shameful for Muslims. if you do not think so, you got a problem. Do not be proud of this! This is no Mughal glory. What you said justifies the notion carried by some Hindus of genocide and rape during Mughal times. If I take your line of thought a bit further, British would have done the same to Muslim women as well. No?

What’s the point of all this?

Posted by rehmat | Report as abusive

The facts are indeed very bitter for all. Therefore, pouncing on a country and people one hates should not be the matter of ones’ pride, joy and victory. Thus, one should not hit another on points that strikes another morbidly My friend.

What the Mugals and the British did in bygone day on Hindus or Muslims and all others are part of facts not mentioned in the history books vividly, why? it is to avert pronouncing shame to a nation in writing either about India, Pakistan or about any other nation for decencies sake.

Hence, it is better not to dig on one another in matters of religion, and past. As many facts are unwritten whether these unwritten facts of shame are in regard to Hindus , Muslims, Christians, Jews or of any others, because these are painful stories of humankind particularly for any nation and should be avoided to bring them to surface not only for decencies sake but for humanity’s sake.

I mentioned certain unwritten historical facts to evoke the feeling in all of us the sense of humanity and to make us all realize how we must have been hurting one another daily morbidly.

Just think how would we establish friendship with one another if we all fight on and continue to do so infinitely. My friends we must agree that is the greatest shame for us all in Twenty First Century, irrespective of nation, race and religion in fact for all humankind.

Please remember the essence that first we should be rational then only we can call ourselves Humankind.

Posted by KINGFISHER | Report as abusive

Rape is not a matter of “shame” for the victim. It’s a crime. The collective finger of society should be pointed at the perpetrator, not the victim.

Instead of viewing the history of conquest as a matter of “shame” for the conquered nation, can we be civilised enough to see it as a crime on the part of the conqueror? There is no honour in aggression and conquest. It’s a sign of barbarism.

Regards,
Ganesh Prasad

Posted by prasadgc | Report as abusive

“I mentioned certain unwritten historical facts to evoke the feeling in all of us the sense of humanity and to make us all realize how we must have been hurting one another daily morbidly.”
***Oh I see!

“Whatever Muslims left for its children in return is more than enough, which even to day India earns to because of those and feed its citizens.”
***So deep down you are still thinking from Muslim vs Hindu. Rationally speaking, there is nothing like “ancestors left and is more than enough”. Each generation has to work hard for its next generation like each one of ours ancestors did. Muslims (nor anyone else) of today cannot claim credit for the Mughal glory nor should they be discredited for whatever happened in the history.

The present matters, since that dictates the future. I have no idea how you can claim about India feeding citizens due to what the Muslims left. Does this not amount to what you prescribe not to do “Hence, it is better not to dig on one another in matters of religion, and past.

The sad part is everyone wants peace and everyone prescribes peace and still peace is no where. I wonder why.

Posted by rehmat | Report as abusive

@”What’s the point of all this?”
Posted by rehmat

I believe, the answer to that lies in the phrase “kisi ki jal rahi hai”.

Posted by Mortal1 | Report as abusive