CFR on Pakistan: hold course (for now)

November 14, 2010

damadola2The Council on Foreign Relations has just released a new report on U.S. policy on Afghanistan and Pakistan based on a study by a bipartisan group chaired by former Deputy Secretary of State Richard Armitage and former national security adviser Sandy Berger and directed by CFR senior fellow Daniel Markey.

As far as Pakistan is concerned, the report broadly endorses U.S. policy of trying to build a long-term partnership, while also aiming to persuade it to turn convincingly against all militant groups. It reiterates a U.S. complaint that while Pakistan is ready to act against militants that threaten the Pakistani state, like al Qaeda and the Pakistani Taliban, it continues to support or tolerate other groups it believes can be used as proxies against India, including the Afghan Taliban, the Haqqani network and the Lashkar-e-Taiba. Among a range of incentives to build a better relationship with Pakistan, the report argues for continued U.S. financial support for Pakistan, all the more needed after this summer’s devastating floods, along with more favourable trade terms to boost the textile industry, which it says provides 38 percent of the country’s industrial employment.

However, the report’s endorsement of U.S. support for Pakistan comes with a hard edge, warning that failure to achieve results, or an attack on the United States traced back to Pakistan-based militants, could lead to a much more aggressive U.S. policy:

“There are several strategic options available to the United States if the administration concludes that the current strategy is not working. In Pakistan, Washington could turn away from its present emphasis on rewarding and encouraging long-term bilateral cooperation. Instead, it could undertake increasingly aggressive, unilateral U.S. military strikes against Pakistan-based terrorists deeper into Pakistani territory, coercive diplomacy and sanctions, or a range of financial, diplomatic, and legal restrictions to control the flow of people, money, goods, and information to and from Pakistan. This strategy of containment and coercion could be coupled with a distinct diplomatic ’tilt’ toward India, with New Delhi serving as Washington’s main strategic and counterterror partner in the region.”

The report also highlights the potential threat from the Lashkar-e-Taiba, the Punjab-based militant group blamed for the 2008 attack on Mumbai, which it says ”could eventually surpass al-Qaeda as the world’s most sophisticated and dangerous terrorist organization.”

“The growing ambitions and capabilities of LeT and its affiliates (and its ties to al-Qaeda) make it the ticking time bomb of South Asia. Washington should place greater pressure on Islamabad to degrade LeT’s capacity and restrain its sympathizers, bearing in mind that a number of these groups enjoy widespread popular support because of their humanitarian outreach efforts,” it says. 

“Discussion of LeT should receive priority alongside al-Qaeda and the Taliban in U.S.-Pakistan political, military, and intelligence dialogues. Tougher U.S. talk must be backed by strong evidence. The United States should therefore enhance its own intelligence and interdiction capabilities to shut down LeT’s operations outside Pakistan and its recruiting activities in the United States and Europe. By sharing intelligence with India and contributing to its defensive capabilities against terrorists based in Pakistan, the United States can undercut any in Pakistan who still see strategic value in supporting militancy.”

Some comments.

As far as I can make out from the list of South Asian experts who contributed to the report, none of them specifically speak for Pakistan’s point of view.  As a result, the subtleties and compromises that would be required in the kind of partnership it advocates go unaddressed. Its approach, rightly or wrongly,  is therefore one of adversary rather than ally. And the questions Pakistanis raise about their relationship with the United States and the future of the country go unanswered.

These include, but are not limited to:

1) Pakistan’s sense of itself as a “rentier state” which takes  money from the United States in return for allowing drone bombings and hiring out its soldiers to fight and die on America’s behalf.  This is a view exploited by militants who think they know best how to save Pakistan from what they see as a collaborationist government.  It is also a view likely to weigh heavily on soldiers and officers in the Pakistan Army, which although too disciplined to allow a rebellion from the ranks, is also intensely patriotic and connected to the feelings of society as a whole. 

2) The “won’t but can’t” (or, depending who you listen to, can’t but won’t) view of the Pakistani military in its approach to the Lashkar-e-Taiba. At one level, according to most analysts, it does not want to take on the Lashkar-e-Taiba, believing the group to be useful and reasonably obedient proxies which can be used against India.  (So far they are one of the few militant groups not believed to have been heavily involved in attacks within Pakistan). But Pakistan also can’t take on the Lashkar-e-Taiba without making the group even more dangerous, by driving it into the arms of an al Qaeda-inspired coalition. This could make it more of a threat to the west, to India and to Pakistan itself.

3) The fear of more bombings in Pakistan were its military to take a more aggressive approach; combined with a sense that the United States does not take  Pakistani deaths as seriously as it would American deaths, if for example as many were to die in U.S. cities as have been killed in a string of bombings from Peshawar to Lahore, Islamabad to Karachi

4)    The apparent (so far) inability of the United States to influence political discourse in Pakistan in a way which encourages people to see it as a friend rather than an enemy.  Running parallel to that is the government’s inability to convince people that Islamist militants pose a real threat.  And then pile on top the nature of politics in Pakistan — for an extreme version, see this link to a water-throwing incident between politicians, as picked up by Cafe Pyala.

5)  The “hedging your bets” scenario. If the United States is going to leave Afghanistan, sooner or later, why create more enemies by taking on the Afghan Taliban? Or maybe more to the point of this post. If the United States is going to turn on Pakistan because it runs out of patience, why create more enemies by having the Lashkar-e-Taiba against you? 

6) Then there is India, the country that is trying very hard not to be hyphenated with Pakistan,  and yet which still defines the Pakistani military’s view of what it sees as its existential threat.  President Barack Obama’s trip to India has left that debate in limbo, seen variously as a wake-up call  and a rebuff.

There is more, far more that ought to be said about a country of 180 million people. And to be fair to the CFR report, it also suggests how much more there might be if the United States changes course and switches from “frenemy” to enemy:

“Americans and Pakistanis must understand that these options carry heavy risks and costs. Both sides have a great deal to lose. Containing the terrorist threat from Pakistan would be challenging if the Pakistani and U.S. governments were at odds, intelligence sharing were reduced, and U.S. officials were forced to operate from neighboring countries. NATO’s presence in Afghanistan would be jeopardized without a secure logistics route through Pakistan. At the same time, Pakistan’s fragile political and economic stability would be undermined by greater tensions with the United States. Pakistan’s military would suffer from the loss of U.S. assistance and restricted access to training, technology, and spare parts for American-made weapons and vehicles. In general, U.S. coercion and containment of Pakistan could accelerate dangerous economic, political, and social trends inside Pakistan. Americans must recognize that as frustrating and difficult as Pakistan’s situation may be today, it has the potential to get even worse.”

The report, with admirable transparency, also quotes its many dissenting voices, including this one from Michael Krepon:

“I do not share this report’s analysis and recommendations in every respect. In particular, I believe that the report’s suggestion that Washington has a credible, coercive fall-back position to convince Pakistan’s security managers to change course is misplaced. In past crises, when the possibilities of leveraging unwelcome choices on Pakistan’s decision-makers were far better than at present, and when faced with far more concerted, top-down U.S. pressures, Pakistan’s leaders successfully parried Washington’s pressures to take actions that were perceived to be unacceptable on national security or domestic political grounds. This track record, as reflected in Pakistan’s pursuit of nuclear weapon capabilities, its protection of unconventional military options to influence Afghanistan’s future, and its policies to keep India off-balance, provides a cautionary tale of Washington’s ability to successfully manipulate carrots and sticks.

“To hold out the expectation that, this time around, with such a heavy U.S. military presence in Afghanistan dependent on Pakistani logistical support, Washington can coercively manipulate Pakistan’s orientation toward the Lashkar-e-Taiba, the Afghan Taliban, Kabul, and New Delhi, seems unwise. Pakistan’s security managers have to come to their own realization that their policies have resulted in profound damage to their country. If they do not, the natural result, with no U.S. manipulation necessary, will be the continued mortgaging of Pakistan’s future, its distancing from the West, and its economic decline.”

Again there is more, far more, to be said. But let me end on a somewhat flippant note. People (countries?) don’t do stuff they don’t want to do because other people tell them to.  Otherwise I would have given up smoking years ago. People do stuff because it is in their interests to do so, or because they choose to do so. I’m not convinced that the CFR report, with all the American bipartisan support behind it, gets there.  “Do this or else,” just does not cut it.

Comments

@Myra,

The single one biggest thing that Pakistan needs to do, is collectively come to a realization that INDIA IS NOT A DANGER, NOR THE ENEMY OF PAKISTAN.

The U.S. has tried to impress this simple concept to the Pakistani Army, but they casually keep rejecting it, in an automaton like programmed fashion.

The entire Pak Army and Pakistani mindset has been hardwired to hate India and perceive India as a threat. In this regard, the Army has successfully propagated a ghostly myth that India wants to harm Pakistani’s. Hate is an easy emotion to implant into others, especially when religion is used to do it.

The question is, how do you convince Pakistani’s that India is not hostile, never has been and never will be?

The CFR has not tried to take this understanding of India being non-threatening as of the utmost importance.

The CFR, the west in general have to understand that their interests in Afghanistan and otherwise will fare much better success if they apply more sincere effort in convincing the Pakistani Army that India is not the enemy, the enemy is within. Most of the radicalization in Pakistan and militantization has been formed from these myths propagated by the PA.

It is time to undo those myths and undoing those myths and greater windows of success for the west in Afghanistan lie in making Rawalpindi and Islamabad understand that forced enmity upon the people of Pakistan against India has been a counterproductive and losing measure as a tool for national unity.

Posted by G-W | Report as abusive
 

GW:

“The CFR, the west in general have to understand that their interests in Afghanistan and otherwise will fare much better success if they apply more sincere effort in convincing the Pakistani Army that India is not the enemy, the enemy is within.”

I must say you are really forcing peace down Pakistani throat. CFR cannot do this job, no one can.

Myra’s philosophy is “People do stuff because it is in their interests to do so, or because they choose to do so.”

Pakistan (MIS)perception is that it is not in their interest yet.

Posted by rehmat | Report as abusive
 

Umairpk: “KP the problem is everytime I need to give you a history lesson, you must try to put yourself in a Pakistan’s shoes and think.”

Umair, I understand your view point. However, I strongly suggest that the paranoia about India be given up in today’s context. Until 9/11, India did look at Pakistan as an enemy state because of all the events that happened. Now there is a clear view that Pakistanis themselves are beginning to see the menace of terrorism and the repercussions of sponsoring terrorism.

India learned this lesson the hard way when it sponsored Tamil terrorists inside Sri Lanka during the 1980s and the complete debacle of the IPKF mission followed by the assassination of Rajeev Gandhi. At that time, the LTTE looked as sinister as the LeT. There were fears that the LTTE would spread its movement into the southern state of Tamil Nadu to gain more ground. This meant violent struggle for a separate Tamil country that would cover the state in India and the northern part of Sri Lanka.

India was broke in 1991. It had a power vacuum at the top. No one know what would happen to the country. By some luck, the remaining politicians got together and formed a coalition government that opened up the economy. The same man who is now India’s PM, was the finance minister and he became the architect of India’s economic progress. In a matter of two decades, India absolutely did away with sponsoring terrorism. LTTE was decimated and destroyed in Sri Lanka and India did nothing to interfere. Sri Lankans are happy today.

India has not interfered in the affairs of Bangladesh or Nepal or Burma. If you extend that further, India will not interfere in Pakistan’s affairs either. There is no need to keep India as an enemy any further. The country has learned to focus on what matters.

People like Musharraf belong to the old school that saw wars and conflicts. They will never change their perception of India. And Musharraf cannot be trusted by anyone. He is one guy who can sell his mother at the drop of a hat and walk with no feelings of conscience. He can say whatever he wants. Pakistanis need to look at India in a different view. There is no use living in the past. If past is brought up it only brings in heated arguments that never seem to end.

Your military needs to reduce its animosity towards India. You are nuclear powered. You know no one will touch your country. So why all this paranoia about India? For India to pull all of its troops away from Kashmir and Pakistan’s borders, goodwill has to flow from Pakistan. India will surely reciprocate it. Your military might still have old hard liners that think like Musharraf, but people like you need to think for yourselves.

There is absolutely no need for all this friction and enmity between the two neighbors. We can at least decide not to bother each other and go our own ways. But that will send a shock wave through your political and military establishments. India as an enemy has defined Pakistan. So long as that belief exists, Pakistan will find harder and harder times. Hope you guys realize this.

Just like your statement that ISI had not teeth prior to 1979, RAW today has no teeth either. Intelligence gathering is always going on. But RAW is not allowed to set up flares in other countries anymore. There is no need for it today.

Hope I have made myself clear.

Posted by KPSingh01 | Report as abusive
 

@Umair
Though shall not kill is the God’s commandment! Islam is the religion of peace and so is judaism and christianity. But not all the followers of these religions are peaceful!! Ofcourse it is wrong and criminal to kill the innocents.

We all know what happened in NY and the invasion of Afghanistan, the regime change and the Pashtoons resistance against the western troops.

Now on the pakistan side of the border, PA underMusharaf muddled up things, probably communication problems, lack of Pashto knowledge perhaps.
Then came the military intrusion into the pashtoon territory starting from swat and ending in waziri land.
you said you were born in Peshawar and therefore should know that Pashtoons like the scilians always take a revengeif one of their family member is murdered. Now you follow this theory and this means an endless explosions and deaths for the next decade in Pakistan towns against the security forces.

I do not have the faintest idea as to
which of the powerful groups are operating against the pakistan military for a personal vendetta, or against their support for the foreign troops. I am pretty sure of one thing the security situation throughout Pakistan is now in the hands of little Pashtoons. They can strike anywhere. how do you tackle suicide commandos?you also have lots of ethnic strifes within the communities. Sometimes one gets the impression that friday gatherings are becoming the ideal targets.
In my opinion it was shabby, I despise military violence against civilians. They went into the autonomous region with force. Pakistan military has now to prove that they are more powerful than the waziris.
It is useless for general kyani, the ex ISI man to lobby the retired secretary of state, colin powel and explaining the difiicult terrain of the Pashtoon territory.
The Pashtoon tribal territory on both sides of the border is an autonomous region. The brits during the colonial period entered into an agreement with the tribal chiefs, allowing them the use of roads upto the so called durand line,(to my knowledg not yet recognised by the Afghan Govt),as well as a certain area near the towns, against a fee and other benefits. for almost a century the agreement was held. Any violation of the agreemnt by the Brits ended in battles with the tribesmen causing heavy casualties to the Brits.and the normality came only after mediation.
This is history now but the agreement is still valid. After 1947 more and more benfits were granted to the tribal population to integrate them with the population in towns.
What Pakistan needs is the reforms, a national army, restructured education system and the judicial system. But now Pakistan is at war within the communities, a weak civil society and strong military but no visionary Prime minister or a President. Sorry i wrote a lot, not remembering what the question was.
Mr KPsingh believes I do not have enough knowledge of Pakistan and should read Ahmad Rashid. he writes a lot and must be making lots of money like mr Msharaf. I am not sure if mr Rashid speaks Pashto, if not the guy is no better than Musharaf.

I am sorry if you were expecting a different reply. Take care.
rex Minor

Posted by pakistan | Report as abusive
 

As a side note, I’d like to say that Indian military never stepped in to take over power, even though political situation reached its nadir on many occasions. Because of that non-interference, Indian democracy could take care of itself and grow with time. This is something military sympathizers in Pakistan will find hard to realize.

Posted by KPSingh01 | Report as abusive
 

@Umair
Do not worry about the outsiders! And what they say!

The old chancellor of the german republic once said in his exchange with margret Thatcher the British Prime minister and i quote, ” The caravans march on regardless of the barking dogs, and others must first remove the dirt in front of their house before looking at ours”.

People in Pakistan is the valuable asset and I know that they are resilient more so than their ancestors were or their current rulers. A national army, national universities, compulsary education, and compulsary military service are the basics for a society. Self reliance and faith in the almighty are the keys for success.

Rex Minor

Posted by pakistan | Report as abusive
 

@KPSingh
Is it not illegal for the military to use violent force causing deaths against the civilian citizens in a democracy?

Rex Minor

Posted by pakistan | Report as abusive
 

RexThank you sir, and I agree with you 101% on what you stated. “What Pakistan needs is the reforms, a national army, restructured education system and the judicial system. But now Pakistan is at war within the communities, a weak civil society and strong military but no visionary Prime minister or a President.”

I am sure your anaylsis of the situation and understanding is very accurate. I do not reccomend you to read XYZ author, rather remain an observer and independent thinker form your own informed judgement and opinion.
Your question as to which of the groups are against Pakistan Army. According to my knowledge,the TTP_(Tehrik Taliban Pakistan) a loose coalition of groups is fighting against Pak Army, they are joined by many splinter groups from Southern Punjab. They have a sectarian hardline Sunni thinking, personal vendetta (Red Mosque incident) and support of US mission in Afghanistan are the reasons. While 2009 was a bloody year, many casualties on both sides, but the tide has slightly turned. Pak Army had successful campaigns in Swat and South Waziristan while North Waziristan remains a trouble spot. Its a bee hive, you poke it and they will come after you causing great collateral damage to local populace something Pakistan Army cannot afford. In short it is a tangled situation, with the Army stretched beyond limit of normal endurance.
The US entered in Afghanistan back in 2001 and after that there was an influx of some more groups to try to find a refuge in Pak tribal areas. Their mentors are foreign Arab Al-Qaida who potray to liberate Pakistan from western influence and influence the local Pakistani groups. The Army needs to sharpen its counterinsurgency tactics and time to tackle the situation politically. Ultimately insurgencies have to be ended through integration and rehabilitation, they can never be won. This is something all stakeholders need to acknowledge and accept.
And as you stated above it would require leadership, education, reforms, investment, time, effort and resources to turn around the situation.

Posted by Umairpk | Report as abusive
 

Rex:”People in Pakistan is the valuable asset and I know that they are resilient more so than their ancestors were or their current rulers. A national army, national universities, compulsary education, and compulsary military service are the basics for a society. Self reliance and faith in the almighty are the keys for success.”

-Thanks again for the incouraging words, it tells me all is not lost. I can assure you people in Pakistan are very resilient, I have seen myself the bombings, then rebuilding stronger and everyone getting back to work with a greater resolve. I wish peace for all of us.

Could you just elaborate on the concept of national Army? I know ours is a nationalistic Army. I wonder what should be a national Army? does it mean representing all ethnic people in the national Army?

Posted by Umairpk | Report as abusive
 

Rex:”PA underMusharaf muddled up things, probably communication problems, lack of Pashto knowledge perhaps.”

-This is where i can set the record straight, with an overwhelming Pushtoon officers/men in the Army and with the rear Air headquarters and Air Force academy in Khyber province i do not think communication gaps or lack of pushtoon language/culture caused error in jusdgement. The Army knows what it has been doing, the reasons may be different.

Posted by Umairpk | Report as abusive
 

Umair,

There is absolutely no doubt that Pakistan & Pakistanis can be a great asset to the world. In recent times, you may have seen many world leaders shower praises on India. There’s no reason why they can’t do the same for Pakistan because at the end of the day, we’re the same people. Even science has proven that more app. 90% of Pakistanis have the same Y-chromosome haplogroup, the same DNA molecule & the same DNA sequence as Indians (which is both % & numbers wise, more than Bangladeshis, Sri Lankans or Nepalese). So Pakistanis can pretty much do & achieve anything that the Indians can. In fact, Pakistan being a smaller country, can grow economically, at a much faster pace than India & China as well. But having said the above, I don’t see the needed socio-economic transformation in Pakistan happening, until & unless the reigns of your country are taken away from the military establishment of your country. Agreed, democracy is flawed & can be highly frustrating in developing countries like India & Pakistan but you Pakistanis will have to trust the system, be patient and sooner or later, the right kind of leadership will emerge, to take Pakistan on the road to prosperity. India also had to wait 40+ years before some good leadership came along. The military establshment should become what it is SUPPOSED to be, a defense arm of & under the democratically elected Govt of Pakistan and nothing more than that.

Posted by Mortal1 | Report as abusive
 

Rex Minor: “Is it not illegal for the military to use violent force causing deaths against the civilian citizens in a democracy?”

You need to understand what democracy is and how it cannot be applied to law and order issue. I can see that you are assuming democracy to be a system in which rights, fairness, equality etc are guaranteed. But that is not the case. Democracy is simply a system by which a country’s leaders are elected by its citizens. That’s it. All the other items like rights, equality etc are separate from electing a government. What you are referring to is a modern civilization. I don’t think there is any nation in the world that can fit that.

Coming to the human rights abuse by a military – it is not justified. But it depends upon if the military is deployed to bring order to a place or if it is sent in to fight an enemy hiding in the midst of the public. When removing weeds, one cannot help destroying good grass. And military is the last resort when all else fails. And whether a country is a democracy or not, military assignments to maintain internal law and order under extreme circumstance will be the same.

The civilian government of India has not issued an order to its military to go and kill so many people every day. If that was the case, then you are correct in condemning it and we all are with you on it. However, if a military is sent in to quell chaos and maintain order, that is a different thing. And when military clamps down a place, normally no one is allowed to move. That’s how a military deals with matters. Counter insurgency is complicated. If you are referring to Kashmir, Indian military was called in by the Kashmir’s chief minister Omar Abdullah after all efforts to quell protestors and stone pelters failed.

In 1971, Pakistan’s military was given the command to go in and kill the Bengalis and slaughter them so that they never dare rise again. This was done to punish Sheikh Mujibur Rehman who was legally a winner in the national elections with majority seats in Pakistan’s parliament. He was to be sworn in as President. But ZA Bhutto and Yahya Khan could not allow for that. So they quelled the protest against injustice by the Bengalis by sending in Pakistan’s military. The order was to systematically capture intellectuals, leaders and students and gun them down. The whole thing was illegal – denying an elected man his right to become a country’s President and ordering the massacre of his people to show where they belonged. And taking over a legal government by means of a coup is also an illegal act.

As far as I know, a democratic nation of India has not given such draconian orders to its military. Therefore what the Indian military is doing is justifiable. I’d say they can relax the control a bit more and bring in accountability.

Posted by KPSingh01 | Report as abusive
 

Umairpk to Rex: “I do not reccomend you to read XYZ author, rather remain an observer and independent thinker form your own informed judgement and opinion.”

You can phrase it better this way – “turn deaf ears to anything that points a finger at Pakistan and read only material that aligns with your views. Close your eyes and ears and follow your instinct. Close your mind and do not follow any logic. Repeat lies until it becomes a truth. Your enemy’s enemy is automatically your friend. Just keep saying the same thing no matter what others say to prove that your ideas are warped. Ignore any credible evidence that they might provide.”

Based on my interactions with the yoyos here, that is the understanding I get about them.

Posted by KPSingh01 | Report as abusive
 

Umairpk: “Could you just elaborate on the concept of national Army? I know ours is a nationalistic Army.”

A national army is one that owns a country. Fore example, Pakistani army is one.
It is not nationalistic as you imply. It keeps Balochis and Sindhis under its thumb. In fact your Musharraf told the Balochi leaders, “Don’t mess with us.”

Pakistan’s army is made up of uniformed soldiers on one side and then an equal number of soldiers who do not wear the uniform. The training given is the same for both. The uniformed group is for protecting Al Qaeda, Taliban leaders etc. The other group is for holy war. Some of its valiant soldiers were dispatched to Mumbai to fight and kill innocent civilians.

Posted by KPSingh01 | Report as abusive
 

Rex Minor: “Mr KPsingh believes I do not have enough knowledge of Pakistan and should read Ahmad Rashid. he writes a lot and must be making lots of money like mr Msharaf. I am not sure if mr Rashid speaks Pashto, if not the guy is no better than Musharaf.”

Mr. Ahmad Rashid has wriiten three famous books – one on Taliban, one on Central Asian crisis and the third one, “Descent into chaos” is his best work. He did not write them in Pashto. But he did write them in English. Another respectable Pakistani writer is Tariq Ali. These people do not write non-sense. They are highly respected writers in the international circles. If you read their works, you will understand how Pakistan’s military has derailed the nation and brought chaos to the region. They are patriotic Pakistanis at the same time. Nadeem Paracha writes honest views in Dawn. These are the people who bring respect to Pakistan.

Since you claim to be sitting in Germany, you might have access to their works. It is worth reading their books. They can help open your eyes.

Posted by KPSingh01 | Report as abusive
 

Rex

Remember one thing, Indians are severely allergic to Pakistan Army and ISI. Any lies regarding the 1971 war, any fabricated story about genocide etc needs to be examined.
You are free to read whatever you want to read, I am sure you will know who is who.

KPSingh:
“In 1971, Pakistan’s military was given the command to go in and kill the Bengalis and slaughter them so that they never dare rise again. This was done to punish Sheikh Mujibur Rehman who was legally a winner in the national elections with majority seats in Pakistan’s parliament.”

In 1971, Pakistan’s military was given the command to go in and kill the Bengalis and slaughter them so that they never dare rise again. This was done to punish Sheikh Mujibur Rehman who was legally a winner in the national elections with majority seats in Pakistan’s parliament.”

-Hats off to your fabricated lies, this is a lie and I would like to challenge you. The internal crisis started in 1970, Army certainly took action in East Pakistan and military generals messed up the situation. But there was no order to kill Bengalis or rape etc. On the contrary India created the Mukti Bahni insurgents and when Pakistan returned the favour a decade later in Kashmir you were complaining. This is your lie, and here is the problem. Pakistan Army to date has designated India as enemy no.1. The day when liars like you will stop lying, Pakistan Army will give a green light to go ahead with peace agreement with India. Until then bear with us.

Posted by Umairpk | Report as abusive
 

BTW KPSingh:

Do you notice how we are both interacting with Rex Minor, he has little knowledge of Pakistan. So you are telling him lies about 1971 Bangladesh genocide, withholding facts on Indian backed insurgents. While I told him my views, you asked him to read certain liberal Pakistani writers. In short we were previosuly making arguments and counter arguments one on one. When Rex joined the discussion, we dragged him into it also.
This is all that is wrong between India and Pakistan, a fu*cked up bilateral relationship and adversity in Afghanistan where both nations are competing for influence. Come on its crazy man!

Posted by Umairpk | Report as abusive
 

@Umair
“The day when liars like you will stop lying, Pakistan Army will give a green light to go ahead with peace agreement with India. Until then bear with us.”

So you are basically saying lets just forget the past and move on for a peaceful and prosperous future..is it?? If Yes, then for sake of peace we, Indians, are ready to forget all. Sign LOC into border and then resolve smaller issues first (I like this idea of yours) and then may be sometime later when we have trust between us then make borders (not just in Kashmir but all along) as completely irrelevant. If No, then clarify please.

“Come on its crazy man”

Yes it is indeed crazy that outsiders are so easily able to make us bicker with each other. For once I would agree with Rex that minds of people in this region need advancement through proper education. Education project is being going on in India and has picked somewhat pace in last 10 years or so and is reflected in recent law of RTE. Pakistan’s situation on education you can tell better. But tell me one thing, does school books in Pakistan (or some parts) teach their children that India is ‘haraam’ (unacceptable); I am asking because some media reports say so but since I am not the one who blindly believes idiot box, so want to confirm it from an educated Pakistani like you.

Awaiting your reply.

Posted by 777xxx777 | Report as abusive
 

http://www.genocidebangladesh.org

@”The day when liars like you will stop lying, Pakistan Army will give a green light to go ahead with peace agreement with India.”

Are the bangladeshis lying as well? The above is a link to their account of the genocide & not of the Indians. The reality is, that the day Pakistanis like you, remove the blindfold which has been covering your eyes since birth & see your military establishment for what it actually is, is the day there can be peace between India & Pakistan.

Posted by Mortal1 | Report as abusive
 

@Umair

Here’s an excerpt from Pakistan’s Hamood ur Rehman commission report, regarding the genocide in East Pakistan:

“The excesses committed by the Pakistani Army fall into the following categories:- a) Excessive use of force and fire power in Dacca during the night of the 25th and 26th of March 1971 when the military operation was launched. b) Senseless and wanton arson and killings in the countryside during the course of the “sweeping operations” following the military action. c) Killing of intellectuals and professionals like doctors, engineers, etc and burying them in mass graves not only during early phases of the military action but also during the critical days of the war in December 1971. d) Killing of Bengali Officers and men of the units of the East Bengal Regiment, East Pakistan Rifles and the East Pakistan Police Force in the process of disarming them, or on pretence of quelling their rebellion. e) Killing of East Pakistani civilian officers, businessmen and industrialists, or their mysterious disappearance from their homes by or at the instance of Army Officers performing Martial Law duties. f) Raping of a large number of East Pakistani women by the officers and men of the Pakistan army as a deliberate act of revenge, retaliation and torture. g) Deliberate killing of members of the Hindu minority.”

Posted by Mortal1 | Report as abusive
 

Umairpk: “Hats off to your fabricated lies, this is a lie and I would like to challenge you. The internal crisis started in 1970, Army certainly took action in East Pakistan and military generals messed up the situation. But there was no order to kill Bengalis or rape etc. On the contrary India created the Mukti Bahni insurgents and when Pakistan returned the favour a decade later in Kashmir you were complaining. This is your lie,”

I am not adept at fabricating lies like your army can do. I humbly accept that I am not match to the folks who run your military.

Rex minor is not an outside. He signs with the name “Pakistan.” And he is pretending to be unaware of issues in South Asia. This helps him slip out whenever he is cornered.

Arguments have to be based on available facts. If people pull things out of the air, one can question that. When we question, we see silence from your end or you divert the topic in a different direction to slide out of it. In our case we provide references either in the form of books that we have read or internet links. You conveniently choose not to read them or call them as fabricated lies. You are relying on what you heard on your street and come to argue with others.

Let me see if you can read this reference with sincerity:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1971_Bangla desh_atrocities

Here is a quote from this link about what Pakistani army had planned:

“Operation Searchlight was a planned military pacification carried out by the Pakistan Army to curb the Bengali nationalist movement in erstwhile East Pakistan in March 1971[21] Ordered by the government in West Pakistan, this was seen as the sequel to Operation Blitz which had been launched in November 1970.

The original plan envisioned taking control of the major cities on 26 March 1971, and then eliminating all opposition, political or military,[22] within one month. The prolonged Bengali resistance was not anticipated by Pakistani planners.[23] The main phase of Operation Searchlight ended with the fall of the last major town in Bengali hands in mid May.”

Read the words “eliminating all opposition, political or military, within one month.” This is only possible if the mission is carried out brutally.

Also read:

“During the war, the Pakistan Army and its local collaborators carried out a systematic execution of the leading Bengali intellectuals. A number of professors from Dhaka University were killed during the first few days of the war.[33][34] However, the most extreme cases of targeted killing of intellectuals took place during the last few days of the war. Professors, journalists, doctors, artists, engineers, writers were rounded up by Pakistan Army and the Razakar militia in Dhaka, blindfolded, taken to torture cells in Mirpur, Mohammadpur, Nakhalpara, Rajarbagh and other locations in different sections of the city to be executed en masse in the killing fields, most notably at Rayerbazar and Mirpur.[35][36][37][38] Allegedly, the Pakistani Army and its paramilitary arm, the Al-Badr and Al-Shams forces created a list of doctors, teachers, poets, and scholars.[39][40]”

Read the word “systematic”.

Where is Mukti Bahini here? It came later on. You guys whine about Afghan refugees flooding Pakistan and the poor Pakistan not getting enough international sympathy for it. India was utterly poor in those days and it had to deal with millions of Bengali refugees. No country came to help India. The US sent in its 7th fleet to attack India. To help itself from Afghan refugee crisis, Pakistan created the Taliban and let them loose into Afghanistan. To help itself from Bengali refugee crisis, India helped the Mukti Bahini to take on the Pak military. What is the difference here? Why is it all right for Pakistan to handle refugee crisis by launching a proxy offensive inside Afghanistan and not so for India? Do you see your double standard here?

India’s action in East Pakistan is just. If Pakistan had been in India’s shoes, it would have done the same thing and will not have stopped with that. At least be glad that India did not go further into West Pakistan. There are think tanks in India which are cursing Indira Gandhi for hesitating to make the move. If she was bold enough, she could have continued the war and choked Pakistan completely. Remember, Balochistan and Sindh independence movements started right after the 1971 war. Pak military had to crush them brutally. If Pakistan did not have the support of the Americans, India could have finished Pakistan off and today you might be a patriotic Punjabi citizen, fighting Rex Minor for his pro-Pashtun feelings.

From Indian stand point, Pakistani army has been an unceasing aggressor and we should have ended that menace in 1971. But for the Americans, you guys will not be in one piece today. And you will not be a nuclear menace to the world either. Thanks to Nixon and Kissinger, China has become a monster to Americans themselves and Pakistan has become a genie that they are struggling to put back into the bottle. Pakistan has become a menace to the region because of the Americans. But at least they are admitting their mistakes and are trying to correct them.

You might be a patriotic Pakistani Umair, but unfortunately truth stands against your military and your country. There is no use trying to defend lies at whatever cost.

Posted by KPSingh01 | Report as abusive
 

Mortal & 777

There is no doubt and its an open secret that President Yahya Khan was unfortunately a drunkard and he greatly messed up in East Pakistan. No doubt Sheikh Mujeeb’s Awami League won the election majority seats and he was supposed to be given a chance to form a majority government but Zulfiqar Bhutto’s adamant attitude sparked the political deadlock. The Army moved in to suppress the Bengalis arrest Mujjeb , fact is the Eastern and western wings of Pakistan had differences over Bengali language and culture. In short things got worse, no doubt the Mukti Bahni insurgents did their own campaign to terrorise, blow up radio stations and sabotage against East Pakistan (backed by India ofcourse). I have heard certain views of some our professional senior Army officers and they take all the blame. Deep down they know the fall of Dhaka, the Army action in East Pakistan and messing up there was Army’s fault. Politicians of Pakistan had a small role, still the rank and file of the Army and Air Force held well in 1971 war. It was the top Military leadership that failed.

I think the Bengali genocide story is simple rubbish, I viewed an old interview on Youtube clip of Indra Gandhi, her eyes shining and she is smiling while accusing of genocide and refugee problem. She knew India is nearing its goal to dismember Pakistan. Even if the genocide took place, I would blame it on India of instigating it. East Pakistan could never have fell without India imposing a full scale war. That was a tactical victory for India, but what did it give you, 39 years later West Pakistan is still here as a nuclear power, we still have the Kashmir dispute and not much has changed.
Now lets consider if India had not intervened in 1971 in East Pakistan, maybe the crisis must have been solved and things would have settled down. But I think it was good in a way what happened, Bengalis would have become a liability for us anyways. They went their way we went ours, today we have friendlier ties with them.

777
Just yesterday Pakistani FM Qureshi stated we need a final solution to Kashmir dispute, maybe recognize LOC and move on enough is enough. Regarding text books and education in Pakistan, there is no such thing as:

“school books in Pakistan (or some parts) teach their children that India is ‘haraam’ (unacceptable); ”

The thing is in Pakistan there is not one single education standard, you have private highly expensive school systems like Convent, Beaconhouse etc (O Levels, A-Levels) then Punjab text book board books are used in government schools and other institutions countrywide. I studied in Rawalpindi (Punjab text books) in an Army run school. Somehow the schools run by Army are one of best, with balanced education in the public sector. In short the text book get revised now and then and I dont think there is any specific hate material. The Air Force has its own school system, the Navy has its own, there are cadet colleges and ‘feeder schools’ some of these schools groom the kids from 8th grade onwards and after high school they go through rigorous selection procedure to join military academies and graduate to join the Armed forces as commissioned officers. All along there is an emphasis on academics and grooming. The lies you hear are just lies as I have already stated. Those who opt for other studies join the medical, engineering, managements studies etc. I am the product of same education system.
Even more postive trend is that organization like USAID is investing along with Pak govt. on primary level basic education, USEFP (US Edu Foundation) help in teacher training, cultural exchanges etc. Similar development programs by British council. However, still there is a lot to be done to improve curriculum, primary education increase, other reforms etc. The Army has started a campaign to rebuild many schools damaged in Northwest by Taliban.

Posted by Umairpk | Report as abusive
 

Also Umair, you are quick to blame India for East Pakistan but do you ever give it any credit for releasing 90,000 of your soldiers after they had surrendered? India could have held them as prisoners of war or even handed them over to the Mukti Bahini, who would’ve happily slaughtered your soldiers as retaliation for the genocide.

Posted by Mortal1 | Report as abusive
 
 

KPSinghIn Iraq US Army was responsible for detainee abuse and other horrific crimes (Abu Ghraib prison) and killing of unarmed Iraqi civilians by blackwater private security. In Afghanistan many incidents of collateral damage reckless killings took place. In Kashmir Indian Army is still killing and oppressing, In Swat Pakistan Army was accused of extrajudicial killings which are under investigation. Back then in East Pakistan certaininhumane acts of aggression might be commited by some army units but an independent account is hard to find and things are exaggerated.

Posted by Umairpk | Report as abusive
 

KPSinghIn Iraq US Army was responsible for detainee abuse and other horrific crimes (Abu Ghraib prison) and killing of unarmed Iraqi civilians by blackwater private security. In Afghanistan many incidents of collateral damage reckless killings took place. In Kashmir Indian Army is still killing and oppressing, In Swat Pakistan Army was accused of extrajudicial killings which are under investigation. Back then in East Pakistan certaininhumane acts of aggression might be commited by some army units but an independent account is hard to find and things are exaggerated.

Posted by Umairpk | Report as abusive
 

In war zones brutalities do take place that is why today tribunals like Hague exist. Currently Radovan Karadic is held for war crimes and is being prosecuted after his arrest. Gen. Radko Mladic is still at large, both these monsters are responsible for Srebrenica massacre in 1995 of Bosnian Muslims at the hands of serbs. Even the UN failed to provide security to refugees there.

Back in 1970s there was no such law or tribunal? Am I correct?
Moreover an independent account of events in needed to ascertain the facts, violence by Pakistan Army and violence by Indian backed Mukti Bahni insurgents. When you take up arms against a country’s military you come under fire.

Posted by Umairpk | Report as abusive
 

KPSingh:

A passage from the link you posted above:
“After the defeat of the Pakistani forces, Bangladeshi nationalist forces, including the Kaderia Bahini militia led by Abdul Kader Siddique, exacted revenge on those who were viewed as having been ‘collaborators’ of the Pakistani forces[citation needed]. In particular, Biharis, some of whom had actively assisted the Pakistani Army, were subjected to massive reprisal attacks”

-So the bengalis were not just oppressed by Pak Army, they took revenge and there were monsters among them too. Besides all Indian authors and their version of 1971 war will be biased obviously.

Posted by Umairpk | Report as abusive
 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mukti_Bahin i

Here is another view, the Mukti Bahni insurgents backed by India resorted to terror activities and sabotage against East Pakistan govt. In return operation searchlight was the Answer from Pakistan Army. Result, conflict, war, atrocities on both sides and orchestrator was India.
Again proved India was responsible for genocide in 1971 in East Pakistan.

Posted by Umairpk | Report as abusive
 

And frankly in March 1971 instead of taking military action in East Pakistan. Pakistan should have rather attacked India on both sides, West Pakistan and East, using full air power and force Naval bombardment. Sure it would have caused damage, with diplomacy and UN ceasefire the war could have ended and East Pakistan saved.

Instead East Pakistan kept slipping out of hands and finally lost in Dec due to regular attacks by Indian backed insurgents.

I think that is why the Army today employs a doctrine of offensive defense against India. We will not wait for you to attack us, rather a policy of offensive defense in other words preemptive strike. Also the idea of inflitrating insurgents in Kashmir is not new, something India too had done in the past.

Posted by Umairpk | Report as abusive
 

Umairpk: “I think the Bengali genocide story is simple rubbish”

You are joining Iran’s Ahmadinijad in claiming that Holocaust never happened. And there are some who claim that 9/11 attacks were staged by Jews.

I am sorry, but genocide of Bengalis by Pakistani army did happen and it is an unfortunate event in history. It did not happen because India created a Mukti Bahini and controlled it from outside. I know some Pakistanis who have twisted facts that far as well. No matter how much you might deny it, truth will be the same.

Using your logic, an average Indian, your Indian counterpart can simply deny that Indian army has never hurt a fly in Kashmir. That will be an insult to the truth as well.

By denying that Bengali genocide ever happened, you are insulting your fellow Muslim brethren at the same time. Something for you Ummah fellows to think about.

Posted by KPSingh01 | Report as abusive
 

Umairpk: “In war zones brutalities do take place that is why today tribunals like Hague exist. Currently Radovan Karadic is held for war crimes and is being prosecuted after his arrest. Gen. Radko Mladic is still at large, both these monsters are responsible for Srebrenica massacre in 1995 of Bosnian Muslims at the hands of serbs. Even the UN failed to provide security to refugees there.”

So you do agree that militaries across the world get brutal. My question is why raise such a campaign against Indian military in Kashmir alone when many other countries, including yours, have done far worse? What tribunal went through your army’s atrocities in East Pakistan? Who was punished? I’d be very interested in hearing about it.

“Back in 1970s there was no such law or tribunal? Am I correct?”

War crime tribunals have been part of the modern world. Nuremberg trials after WW II brought justice to Nazi criminals. No such tribunal was formed in 1971 because the United States prevented anything from happening at that time. It was busy cozying up with China through Pakistan’s mediation. Nixon called Indira Gandhi a “b*tch” for cutting up Pakistan into two. Nixon even considered nuking India. The US, due to cold war geo-politics, was a bad nation in those days. It condemned and protested Vietnam’s invasion of Kampuchea to defeat and drive off Pol Pot. The US objected to the installation of Heng Samarin’s regime in Kampuchea by Vietnam. BTW, do you know what Pol Pot is famous for? Go read about it and it will ring a bell. Both India and Vietnam were condemned for their actions to stop genocide by the US and its supporters, just because they were “on the other side of the wall.” Human rights etc did not matter. The US has the strongest international clout. Today it has tilted towards India. So now if Pakistan raises human rights issue in Kashmir, guess what the US will do? Nothing. Because it put up with a much bigger human rights violation by Pakistan when it suited its interests.

“Moreover an independent account of events in needed to ascertain the facts, violence by Pakistan Army and violence by Indian backed Mukti Bahni insurgents. When you take up arms against a country’s military you come under fire.”

So why point fingers at Indian military for its actions in Kashmir? Are refugees pouring out of Kashmir into Pakistan? Let us know.

Posted by KPSingh01 | Report as abusive
 

@”Iraq US Army was responsible for detainee abuse and other horrific crimes (Abu Ghraib prison) and killing of unarmed Iraqi civilians by blackwater private security. In Afghanistan many incidents of collateral damage reckless killings took place. In Kashmir Indian Army is still killing and oppressing” Posted by Umairpk

Same old, morally weak finger-pointing response from you “Everybody else does it, so it’s OK if we did it too”. Does the acts of others absolve your army of cunducting mass murders & rapes in east Pakistan?

@”but an independent account is hard to find and things are exaggerated.”

It’s hard for you to find because you DON’T want to find it. There are plenty of truly independant accounts of the atrocities commited by your army in east Pakistan.

@”Here is another view, the Mukti Bahni insurgents backed by India resorted to terror activities and sabotage against East Pakistan govt. In return operation searchlight was the Answer from Pakistan Army. Result, conflict, war, atrocities on both sides and orchestrator was India”

Of course there’s another view. That’s the view of your army & it has been spoon fed to gullable Pakistanis like you, begining with your primary school text books. However, it’s your army’s view on one side & the view of pretty much the rest of the world, on the other side. A criminal’s tendency is to deflect the blame of his crime on to others, so nothing new there.

Posted by Mortal1 | Report as abusive
 

Umairpk: “And frankly in March 1971 instead of taking military action in East Pakistan. Pakistan should have rather attacked India on both sides, West Pakistan and East, using full air power and force Naval bombardment. Sure it would have caused damage, with diplomacy and UN ceasefire the war could have ended and East Pakistan saved.”

In 1971, if Pakistan had attacked India from both ends, it would have splintered up much faster. As it was, Bengalis wanted to secede from this great nation for Muslims and Muslims only. They would have bitten off Pakistan’s rear end while it was busy attacking India.

In addition to the of surrender ceremony in Dhaka, Yahya Khan would have signed a similar surrender agreement in Lahore. India had learned in 1965 that it missed an opportunity to really put the Pak army in a bind. It was inexperience and miscalculation. If Pakistan attacked India, what other opportunity or justification was needed to go all out and wipe out all future potential issues? Pakistan did not have the fire power and resources to last beyond two to three weeks. It had its emissaries hurrying to China and the US to thwart India’s gains. China, your all weather friend, did nothing. The US stopped short of condemning Indian action because the Russians began to warm up.

India, in my opinion, should have continued on with its mission after cutting of East Pakistan. It had all of Kashmir within its grasp. Further push into West Pakistan for a month more, would have allowed Balochistan and Sindh to splinter up as well. By now Islamic unity would have been proved as a myth well beyond doubt. Probably a reduced Pakistan will be fighting four wars with neighboring Islamic nations. That would have done a lot of good to this region – there would have been no nukes. Soviet invasion of Afghanistan might not have happened. All these Madrasas, Mujahideen, Mullahs, LeT etc would not have materialized. 9/11 would not have happened. A lot of good would have happened to the world, if India had done the right thing in 1971. We let you off the hook. Thank us for that.

Now you are a nuclear power and be rest assured that the equations have changed. No one will dare go into Pakistan. All this happened because India let your military off the hook. Your military has tried to avenge all this shame. They know very well that India could have crushed them in 1971. They have tried everything since 1989, with all the nuclear empowerment. Unfortunately your country is fighting for its survival again and India has become even stronger. Since your nation is nuclear armed, we will allow brothers of the Ummah to slaughter each other and splinter up. Your military is going to be very busy trying to keep the brothers from fighting each other. It is all coming soon.

Posted by KPSingh01 | Report as abusive
 

KPSingh

The nuclear thing was also started by India, everything was going good until 1998 and suddenly BANG!!! India explodes nuclear devices in Pokhran. Knowing we can only sustain two weeks in a war, Pakistan was also compelled to demonstrate its nuclear power. Again who is responsible for nuclearization of South Asia? India wanted to project power, Pakistan wanted to express that it is capable of fight back. The lesson for you is to learn that never underestimate Pakistan, but still you are under the illusion that Pakistan can be further divided and its nuclear power can be neutralized? Tells me the real reason why you guys are allergic to Pakistan Army and ISI. Get some anti-allergic vaccine.

Posted by Umairpk | Report as abusive
 

Umair said:

> Even if the genocide took place, I would blame it on India of instigating it.

Further argument is pointless!

Regards,
Ganesh Prasad

Posted by prasadgc | Report as abusive
 

Umairpk:”Even if the genocide took place,”

Like it or not, it did. No matter how much you might close your eyes, the genocide happened and your “brave” soldiers were involved in it.

“I would blame it on India of instigating it.”

That’s what you guys have been doing all the time. This is not new. Look at how that liar Musharraf is spinning stories in the link that you provided. He paints the picture of Pakistan as the innocent, helpless and peace loving nation that has been drawn into conflicts by everyone and Pakistan became what it did because of them. This kind of claim might be soothing to the guilty hearts in Pakistan, but the outside world isn’t buying any such excuses. India got involved in East Pakistan affairs much later, when millions of refugees began to pour in and the situation became difficult to handle.

“East Pakistan could never have fell without India imposing a full scale war.”

India did not declare war on Pakistan. It helped the refugees and the Mukti Bahini. They became your equivalent of JKLF. If you are justified in supporting Khalistan and Kashmir secessions inside India, then you have no right to condemn India for the same reason. You cannot have one rule for you and another for the others. You do not make such rules. India has never declared war on Pakistan during its entire history. Pakistan has always been the aggressor from 1948 all the way to Kargil and Mumbai attacks. The reason why India decided to capitalize on East Pakistan crisis was because Pakistan had launched offensives against India in 1948, and 1965 already.

“That was a tactical victory for India, but what did it give you, 39 years later West Pakistan is still here as a nuclear power, we still have the Kashmir dispute and not much has changed.”

We could have dismembered you further. Pakistan had no defense against India in 1971. It was at the receiving end mostly. The only thing Pakistan had better than India was and has been are arrogance and superiority complex. You are cursing the US today. Yet it was because of the US you are still in one piece and a nuclear power. In hindsight, I’d say India missed a tactical opportunity permanently put to rest a lingering problem in South Asia. It is not the case of Muslims versus non-Muslims. Pakistan as a nation has become an irritant to everyone around. Afghans do not trust you either.

But you people never seem to learn from the past. That is because your history has been rewritten with lies repeatedly. If your country cannot help resolve the Afghanistan issue soon, for all you know, your country might do a great service to the world by spinning into civil war by itself. No external help may be necessary. The same US that saved Pakistan from falling apart in 1971 might facilitate its break up if it sees that as a way to bring peace to the region and the world.

Posted by KPSingh01 | Report as abusive
 

May be Myra should post an article about East Pakistan. She loves to publish articles on Kashmir once in a while. Since Pakistanis like the “neutrality” of Myra, may be her words might give them more insight. Are you game for it Myra?

Posted by KPSingh01 | Report as abusive
 

Umairpk: “The nuclear thing was also started by India, everything was going good until 1998 and suddenly BANG!!! India explodes nuclear devices in Pokhran.”

You keep giving me opportunities to expose your country’s duplicity again and again. You don’t want to. Because if I provide you with more facts, you might seek asylum in Iran or some place else.

For a long time India and Israel to some extent have been trying to expose Pakistan’s clandestine nuclear bomb development. By 1984, Pakistan had all the material and technology to assemble nuclear bombs. Unfortunately the US badly needed Pakistan as an ally to fight the USSR in Afghanistan. This meant, the President of the US had to lie openly to his Congress that Pakistan had no nuclear capability. Lie he did. In the book, “Nuclear Deception,” there is a very interesting piece on how India decided to expose it.

India suddenly held a war exercise named Operation Brass Tacks. Pakistan took the bait and launched Zarb e Momin. India’s famous journalist Kuldip Nayyar made a trip to Islamabad and held an interview with Pakistan’s God AQ Khan. In that he threw in more bait to excite the Khan into declaring openly that Pakistan had the f*king bomb and will drop it on India even for a war exercise. That was a complete egg on the face for the Americans who had done everything they could to hide Pakistan’s clandestine operations spanning from Europe, US, Canada, Libya, Nigeria, South Africa, Dubai, China and Malaysia.

In 1998, the same thing happened. There was a question on how credible is Pakistan’s claim on its nuclear prowess and how good is the yield of its bombs. The only way to excite Pakistan was to invite it to a match and Pakistan took the bait again. Economic sanctions were imposed on both countries. For India it was like a fly swat on a rhino’s rear end. Pakistan fell to the brink.

We know you guys are very emotional and all one needs to expose your foolishness is to do something like the above. Your country has never failed to take the bait.

RAW had slipped in SIM cards into Pakistan and guess where they appeared? In the cell phones of the Mumbai attackers. The whole world could hear the communications between the terrorists and their ISI masters from inside Pakistan.

“Knowing we can only sustain two weeks in a war, Pakistan was also compelled to demonstrate its nuclear power.”

Good. Now your country needs to worry about sustaining itself for two weeks continuously. There is no money other than what is being donated. While others are donating, your brothers are detonating. You can keep your nukes. But your brothers are salivating over them now. If I were you, I’ll be more worried about them than India.

“Again who is responsible for nuclearization of South Asia?”

China.

“India wanted to project power, Pakistan wanted to express that it is capable of fight back.”

We wanted to show China that 1962 cannot be repeated. And Chinese are smart. They are not chest thumping with India anymore. They want to do more business with us. They know our missiles can carry nukes to Beijing and Shanghai. So they gave your country the bomb making blue print and enough material to make a 25kT bomb. I hear instructions on your Ghauri and other missiles are still written in Korean language.

“The lesson for you is to learn that never underestimate Pakistan,”

Those who under-estimate an enemy will suffer the worst.
We had never underestimated Pakistan. Criminals are not looked at with regard and admiration. They are looked at with suspicion.

“but still you are under the illusion that Pakistan can be further divided and its nuclear power can be neutralized?”

One never knows. If Pakistan continues to be an Islamic paradise that churns out cadets that go and blow up things in other countries, at some point you will face the barrel of the gun. And your nukes might be one of the reasons why they might point their barrels at your face.

“Tells me the real reason why you guys are allergic to Pakistan Army and ISI. Get some anti-allergic vaccine.”

Pakistan’s army and the ISI today are rogue organizations that deal with criminal elements to control the region, derail governments and sustain global Islamic terrorism. They are the real villains. For a long time, the world powers turned a blind eye to that reality. Now they are beginning to experience the truth themselves. Let North Waziristan invasion happen. Then will come the ants from the underground. Isn’t that why the shaking Pakistani military is doing its very best not to go in there? It is going to happen.

Dismantling the army and the ISI and restructuring it will do a lot of good to the people in the Af-Pak region. They control everyone including you. You need to be helped out so that all of us can live in peace. That will not happen until the Pak army is decimated and rebuilt from scratch. No one is going to do that from outside. It will happen from within.

Posted by KPSingh01 | Report as abusive
 

babag

I do not know what’s mentioned there in the article at Rupeenews, but as a rule, I stopped wasting my time on this site. It is an established propaganda site by Pakistani standards. The problem with such sites is that they have ruined their reputation to a point where even if there is something credible, one cannot trust it. Any other site?

Thanks

Posted by rehmat | Report as abusive
 

@Umair

We should never assume what is false as true, and to arrive at a knowledge which takes in all things. For, if we are without the knowledge of any of the things which we are capable of understanding , that is only because we have never perceived any way to bring us to this knowledge , or because we have fallen into the contrary error. But if our method rightly explains how our mental vision should be used, so as not to fall into the contrary error, and how deduction should be discovered in order that we may arrive at the knowledge of all things, I do not see what else is needed to make it complete; for I have already said that no science is required except by mental intuition or deduction. The thoughts of Descartes, the 17th century French philosopher, who eveloped a system and rules for the direction of mind.

The Rule 2 states that only those objects should engage our attention , to the sure and indubitable knowledge of which our mental power seem to be adequate!

My own analysis starts from certain basics. For example, how can a reporter go into the psyche of the people and understand the feeling and the expression of the people, if he does not speak or understand their language and their culture. He could only report on the events and occurances, but not what the guys are saying even though he has a translator with him.

I have no problem with so called liberals who write on popular subjets and make bucks, but if they do not speak or understand the language and culture of the people, I have no use of the info. For example the Pashtoons would regard other pashtoons not speaking the same dilect foreigners. I know this is macabre but the reality. More next.

Rex Minor

Posted by pakistan | Report as abusive
 

Rehmat:This is what written in by Sarmila Bose in Rupeenews:”the conflicts played out on the soil of East Pakistan in 1971 were more numerous and ran deeper. The civil war was not merely between the two wings of Pakistan, but also within the territory of East Pakistan, between Bengalis and non-Bengalis, and among Bengalis themselves, who were bitterly divided between those who favoured independence for Bangladesh and those who supported the unity and integrity of Pakistan. The middle ground of federation and autonomy was increasingly squeezed between these two highly polarised positions, especially through the general elections of December 1970.”

“While 1971 evokes strong emotion in both parts of the severed wings of Pakistan, there has been little systematic study of the violent conflicts during the nine-month long civil war.3 Popular attention has focused on the Pakistani armed force’s action against the Bengalis, or the India-Pakistan war. However, East Pakistan in 1971 was simultaneously a battleground for many different kinds of violent conflict – militant rebellion, mob violence, military crackdown on a civilian population, mutiny within the armed forces, urban terrorism, guerrilla warfare, conventional battles, death squads, civil war within Pakistan and between Bengalis, and full-scale war between Pakistan and India.”

-And Reuters is no propaganda site, rather Indians here are out to bring a bad name to Pakistan. If you quit the discussion we loose the views of an Indian Muslim on this forum. Choice is yours to make, but i guess you must go through the Rupee news article posted by babag.

Posted by Umairpk | Report as abusive
 

“The case studies show that brutalities were committed by all parties in the conflict and no party is in a position to occupy the moral high ground on this question without first acknowledging and expressing remorse for the inhumanities committed by its own side. Both sides must be held equally accountable in terms of the nature of the crime. Equally, acts of humanity in the midst of a bitter conflict are found on all sides, with Bengalis, Biharis and West Pakistanis helping one another in the midst of mayhem. Indeed, it is this reality that makes the conflict in East Pakistan in 1971 suitable to a “reconciliatory” approach, rather than a recriminatory one.”

From the Rupee article.

But ppl like KPSingh are the real problem. How shameful can you be to accuse Pakistan Army of genocide and claim the moral high ground when Indian Army with Bengali terrorists carried out the genocide of Biharis instead?

Posted by Umairpk | Report as abusive
 

Thanks babag, ur awesome. I uncovered the truth regarding the Bengali genocide story. These Banglas look so innocent, these monsters trained as terrorists in India came back and killed scores of Biharis. Smaeful Indians claim the moral high ground by accusing West Pakistan military for genocide. Give me a break!

Thanks again and sorry for my lack of knowledge, I was born during the Soviet Afghan war era and have very little knowledge of the 71 event.

Posted by Umairpk | Report as abusive
 

Another slap on the face of shameful Indians, Sarmila Bose is the Grandchild of Netaji Subash Chandra Bose.

Will you please listen to her instead of making fabricated stories?

Posted by Umairpk | Report as abusive
 

Umairpk: “These Banglas look so innocent, these monsters trained as terrorists in India came back and killed scores of Biharis. Smaeful Indians claim the moral high ground by accusing West Pakistan military for genocide. ”

No one is claiming a higher moral ground here. You are pot. And we are kettle. Stop calling us black. That’s all. I can replace the names in the above with Kashmiri Muslims trained by Pakistani army, Kashmiri Hindus and Buddhists, militants comprising of Arabs, Chechens, Pashtuns, Punjabis, Pak army regulars striking at people and the Indian military – the death toll in Kashmir over 20 years stands at around 70000. You guys have tried to dump it all on the Indian military and have tried to gain mileage out of it.

But Pakistan military’s genocide is well accepted in world historic annals. Others might have killed each other. But that pales in comparison to what Pak army did in East Pakistan. You can never wipe that blood off your memory.

Posted by KPSingh01 | Report as abusive
 

Umairpk: “How shameful can you be to accuse Pakistan Army of genocide and claim the moral high ground when Indian Army with Bengali terrorists carried out the genocide of Biharis instead?”

Oh now they are terrorists huh? Not freedom fighters? No? And those who fight the Indian military in Kashmir? What are they? Why would Bengalis become terrorists and terrorists launched by Pakistan become freedom fighters? Why the double standard? Will you call those who fight in Kashmir as terrorists?

Posted by KPSingh01 | Report as abusive
 

Umairpk: “Reuters is no propaganda site, rather Indians here are out to bring a bad name to Pakistan.”

So long as they sing Pakistan’s tunes, they are not propaganda site. As soon as they start questioning things in Pakistan, they become biased and hate Pakistan. We know the drill. Indians are not out here to bring a bad name to Pakistan. Your country has worked hard to earn a bad name by itself. Your self help in this regard is amazing.

Posted by KPSingh01 | Report as abusive
 

rehmat, “I do not know what’s mentioned there in the article at Rupeenews, but as a rule, I stopped wasting my time on this site. It is an established propaganda site by Pakistani standards. The problem with such sites is that they have ruined their reputation to a point where even if there is something credible, one cannot trust it. Any other site?”
I understand that, but Sarmila Bose is not”Rupeenews”.
The Rupeenews merely published part of her research.
“Sarmila Bose, Assistant Editor for the Indian daily, Ananda Bazar Patrika and Visiting Scholar, at the Elliott School of International Affairs,….”

Umairpk. You are welcome.

Posted by babag | Report as abusive
 

Just because Sarmila Bose is Indian, does not make her credible. She’s not Arundhati Roy or even Asma Jahangir, who are well reputed. Her writings on the subject (East Pakistan) are not only refuted by Bangladesh but also by the UN & various other human right organizations like Amnesty International. Why accept the accounts of some lesser known writer with suspect reputation when Bangladeshis themselves have official records of the genocide, which have been substantiated by various international organizations. Just because you guys found an article written by a barely known writer, which is in conformity with the lies that you want to believe, it won’t change the truth. The world knows it & the Bangladeshis certainly do.

Posted by Mortal1 | Report as abusive
 

Post Your Comment

We welcome comments that advance the story through relevant opinion, anecdotes, links and data. If you see a comment that you believe is irrelevant or inappropriate, you can flag it to our editors by using the report abuse links. Views expressed in the comments do not represent those of Reuters. For more information on our comment policy, see http://blogs.reuters.com/fulldisclosure/2010/09/27/toward-a-more-thoughtful-conversation-on-stories/
  •