CFR on Pakistan: hold course (for now)

November 14, 2010

damadola2The Council on Foreign Relations has just released a new report on U.S. policy on Afghanistan and Pakistan based on a study by a bipartisan group chaired by former Deputy Secretary of State Richard Armitage and former national security adviser Sandy Berger and directed by CFR senior fellow Daniel Markey.

As far as Pakistan is concerned, the report broadly endorses U.S. policy of trying to build a long-term partnership, while also aiming to persuade it to turn convincingly against all militant groups. It reiterates a U.S. complaint that while Pakistan is ready to act against militants that threaten the Pakistani state, like al Qaeda and the Pakistani Taliban, it continues to support or tolerate other groups it believes can be used as proxies against India, including the Afghan Taliban, the Haqqani network and the Lashkar-e-Taiba. Among a range of incentives to build a better relationship with Pakistan, the report argues for continued U.S. financial support for Pakistan, all the more needed after this summer’s devastating floods, along with more favourable trade terms to boost the textile industry, which it says provides 38 percent of the country’s industrial employment.

However, the report’s endorsement of U.S. support for Pakistan comes with a hard edge, warning that failure to achieve results, or an attack on the United States traced back to Pakistan-based militants, could lead to a much more aggressive U.S. policy:

“There are several strategic options available to the United States if the administration concludes that the current strategy is not working. In Pakistan, Washington could turn away from its present emphasis on rewarding and encouraging long-term bilateral cooperation. Instead, it could undertake increasingly aggressive, unilateral U.S. military strikes against Pakistan-based terrorists deeper into Pakistani territory, coercive diplomacy and sanctions, or a range of financial, diplomatic, and legal restrictions to control the flow of people, money, goods, and information to and from Pakistan. This strategy of containment and coercion could be coupled with a distinct diplomatic ’tilt’ toward India, with New Delhi serving as Washington’s main strategic and counterterror partner in the region.”

The report also highlights the potential threat from the Lashkar-e-Taiba, the Punjab-based militant group blamed for the 2008 attack on Mumbai, which it says ”could eventually surpass al-Qaeda as the world’s most sophisticated and dangerous terrorist organization.”

“The growing ambitions and capabilities of LeT and its affiliates (and its ties to al-Qaeda) make it the ticking time bomb of South Asia. Washington should place greater pressure on Islamabad to degrade LeT’s capacity and restrain its sympathizers, bearing in mind that a number of these groups enjoy widespread popular support because of their humanitarian outreach efforts,” it says. 

“Discussion of LeT should receive priority alongside al-Qaeda and the Taliban in U.S.-Pakistan political, military, and intelligence dialogues. Tougher U.S. talk must be backed by strong evidence. The United States should therefore enhance its own intelligence and interdiction capabilities to shut down LeT’s operations outside Pakistan and its recruiting activities in the United States and Europe. By sharing intelligence with India and contributing to its defensive capabilities against terrorists based in Pakistan, the United States can undercut any in Pakistan who still see strategic value in supporting militancy.”

Some comments.

As far as I can make out from the list of South Asian experts who contributed to the report, none of them specifically speak for Pakistan’s point of view.  As a result, the subtleties and compromises that would be required in the kind of partnership it advocates go unaddressed. Its approach, rightly or wrongly,  is therefore one of adversary rather than ally. And the questions Pakistanis raise about their relationship with the United States and the future of the country go unanswered.

These include, but are not limited to:

1) Pakistan’s sense of itself as a “rentier state” which takes  money from the United States in return for allowing drone bombings and hiring out its soldiers to fight and die on America’s behalf.  This is a view exploited by militants who think they know best how to save Pakistan from what they see as a collaborationist government.  It is also a view likely to weigh heavily on soldiers and officers in the Pakistan Army, which although too disciplined to allow a rebellion from the ranks, is also intensely patriotic and connected to the feelings of society as a whole. 

2) The “won’t but can’t” (or, depending who you listen to, can’t but won’t) view of the Pakistani military in its approach to the Lashkar-e-Taiba. At one level, according to most analysts, it does not want to take on the Lashkar-e-Taiba, believing the group to be useful and reasonably obedient proxies which can be used against India.  (So far they are one of the few militant groups not believed to have been heavily involved in attacks within Pakistan). But Pakistan also can’t take on the Lashkar-e-Taiba without making the group even more dangerous, by driving it into the arms of an al Qaeda-inspired coalition. This could make it more of a threat to the west, to India and to Pakistan itself.

3) The fear of more bombings in Pakistan were its military to take a more aggressive approach; combined with a sense that the United States does not take  Pakistani deaths as seriously as it would American deaths, if for example as many were to die in U.S. cities as have been killed in a string of bombings from Peshawar to Lahore, Islamabad to Karachi

4)    The apparent (so far) inability of the United States to influence political discourse in Pakistan in a way which encourages people to see it as a friend rather than an enemy.  Running parallel to that is the government’s inability to convince people that Islamist militants pose a real threat.  And then pile on top the nature of politics in Pakistan — for an extreme version, see this link to a water-throwing incident between politicians, as picked up by Cafe Pyala.

5)  The “hedging your bets” scenario. If the United States is going to leave Afghanistan, sooner or later, why create more enemies by taking on the Afghan Taliban? Or maybe more to the point of this post. If the United States is going to turn on Pakistan because it runs out of patience, why create more enemies by having the Lashkar-e-Taiba against you? 

6) Then there is India, the country that is trying very hard not to be hyphenated with Pakistan,  and yet which still defines the Pakistani military’s view of what it sees as its existential threat.  President Barack Obama’s trip to India has left that debate in limbo, seen variously as a wake-up call  and a rebuff.

There is more, far more that ought to be said about a country of 180 million people. And to be fair to the CFR report, it also suggests how much more there might be if the United States changes course and switches from “frenemy” to enemy:

“Americans and Pakistanis must understand that these options carry heavy risks and costs. Both sides have a great deal to lose. Containing the terrorist threat from Pakistan would be challenging if the Pakistani and U.S. governments were at odds, intelligence sharing were reduced, and U.S. officials were forced to operate from neighboring countries. NATO’s presence in Afghanistan would be jeopardized without a secure logistics route through Pakistan. At the same time, Pakistan’s fragile political and economic stability would be undermined by greater tensions with the United States. Pakistan’s military would suffer from the loss of U.S. assistance and restricted access to training, technology, and spare parts for American-made weapons and vehicles. In general, U.S. coercion and containment of Pakistan could accelerate dangerous economic, political, and social trends inside Pakistan. Americans must recognize that as frustrating and difficult as Pakistan’s situation may be today, it has the potential to get even worse.”

The report, with admirable transparency, also quotes its many dissenting voices, including this one from Michael Krepon:

“I do not share this report’s analysis and recommendations in every respect. In particular, I believe that the report’s suggestion that Washington has a credible, coercive fall-back position to convince Pakistan’s security managers to change course is misplaced. In past crises, when the possibilities of leveraging unwelcome choices on Pakistan’s decision-makers were far better than at present, and when faced with far more concerted, top-down U.S. pressures, Pakistan’s leaders successfully parried Washington’s pressures to take actions that were perceived to be unacceptable on national security or domestic political grounds. This track record, as reflected in Pakistan’s pursuit of nuclear weapon capabilities, its protection of unconventional military options to influence Afghanistan’s future, and its policies to keep India off-balance, provides a cautionary tale of Washington’s ability to successfully manipulate carrots and sticks.

“To hold out the expectation that, this time around, with such a heavy U.S. military presence in Afghanistan dependent on Pakistani logistical support, Washington can coercively manipulate Pakistan’s orientation toward the Lashkar-e-Taiba, the Afghan Taliban, Kabul, and New Delhi, seems unwise. Pakistan’s security managers have to come to their own realization that their policies have resulted in profound damage to their country. If they do not, the natural result, with no U.S. manipulation necessary, will be the continued mortgaging of Pakistan’s future, its distancing from the West, and its economic decline.”

Again there is more, far more, to be said. But let me end on a somewhat flippant note. People (countries?) don’t do stuff they don’t want to do because other people tell them to.  Otherwise I would have given up smoking years ago. People do stuff because it is in their interests to do so, or because they choose to do so. I’m not convinced that the CFR report, with all the American bipartisan support behind it, gets there.  “Do this or else,” just does not cut it.

Comments

Myra,

I ask the same question that I did in your previous posting on the LeT.

How is it that you conclude that Pakistan CANNOT take action against the LeT without “endangering itself”?

You have reported yourself that every LeT commander, including those who did Mumbai, had an ISI handler. The Headley revelations, including the Washington Post stories yesterday and today, clearly prove that the LeT is tightly connected to the Pakistani military and the ISI, alomst acting as a deniable arm of the state.

Your claims therefore are inherently contradictory.

As to why Pakistan should act against the LeT even if it carries internal dangers – the answer is simple. The LeT has come close to provoking a nuclear confrontation more than once. The only state that can control this is Pakistan. By not acting against it, Pakistan is abandoning the duty of sovereign nation states.

As to why Pakistan should act against the Afghan Taliban, you refuse to consider the obvious again and again. I’ll lay it out for you yet again.

The Afghan Taliban’s core leadership has repeatedly refused to disavow support to Al Qaeda. The same goes for the Haqqanis. Therefore, any area controlled by them has a high risk of providing a base to those that will keep trying to attack the US and other nations. Therefore Pakistan has to either face the risk of a post-9/11 like apocalypse once again, or find another proxy which does not carry the Al Qaeda risk.

Why is this so hard for you to understand?

BTW, if you are not going to consider opposing views or respond to logical posers, then why pray have a blog where you post so frequently?

Posted by SilverSw0rd | Report as abusive
 

SilverSwOrd said:

> Why is this so hard for you to understand?

Because when the objective is “neutrality”, one cannot simply call a spade a spade. That would be seen as taking sides.

That’s why Indians are frustrated by this blog. It dances around issues but will not take arguments to their logical conclusion. When you need to keep a blog going, you cannot shut it down by arriving at a conclusion.

I can understand that, and I realise that commentary must necessarily follow ground reality. When Pakistan enters its next tragic phase, blog topics will be appropriately titled to reflect it (“Pakistan’s bankruptcy, and why the world refuses to bail it out”, “Staving off famine”, “Why is Pakistan breaking up?”, “The religious roots of the PA mutiny”, etc.)

Tell then, we can do nothing but wait and watch. I’m afraid well-wishers of the region have no real role to play here. We have to helplessly witness this slow-motion train wreck over the next few years. It is all so unnecessary.

Regards,
Ganesh Prasad

Posted by prasadgc | Report as abusive
 

Ganesh Prasad

There is no conclusion here nor do I seek one.

I would not call it frustration, but bemusement would be closer to what I see.

The blog authors appear to pose questions and claim to seek a civilized exchange of ideas but it is strange that when logical answers and follow ups are made, Myra just pretends they don’t exist and reiterates the old questions yet again.

Posted by SilverSw0rd | Report as abusive
 

Myra A good article, and the clip of water throwing incident is also shocking how emotions run high when talking about government supporting America. For now the Pakistan Army is fairly pro-American but that can change very quickly if the US thinks about a massive retribution plan to punish Pakistan. In the past Pakistan has embarked upon unilateral actions to safeguard its interests. It is upto the US to decide if they want a truly strategic partnership with Pakistan. Unfortunately that is not the case, looking at Obama and Michelle dancing at the tunes of Bollywood songs i think they forget the thousands of Pakistani soldiers and civilians who died in this war. He did not even have a goodwill for a quick stopover in Islamabad and they think we will hand our country on a platter. This is not the way to forge partnerships and they are creating conditions where similarly back in late 70s a corrupt regime of Shah of Iran was propped up which eventually resulted in a revolution and overthrow. This corrupt PPP government is also useless only hope is the patriotic Army which can bring the feuding politicians to one table and think better for the country.

Posted by Umairpk | Report as abusive
 

Ganesh:”The religious roots of the PA mutiny”

-Just forget about such a scenario, if there is one institution in Pakistan which is professional, resilient having strong foundations and capability to function efficiently and on merit, it is the Army. It has complete unity of command, among all its ranks and undoubtedly its cohesion is the guarantee of a stable Pakistan. Time and again this institution has pitched in to save Pakistan from internal instability, natural disasters etc. Now too it is providing the weak civilian government the full support and taking Pakistan towards real democracy. As Myra pointed out it is intensely patriotic and when ever there is a red flag it will undertake countermeasures to safeguard the country from any internal or external threat of any nature.

Posted by Umairpk | Report as abusive
 

I am forced to point out some facts for the author of this blog.
While you (Myra) are full of complaints about US and their strategy towards Pakistan have u ever come up with solution that is usable.
What should they do?
This blog had 6 points from the Pakistani view but nothing new. Can u instead post 6 action items that the US/India can do which would change the situation on the ground in Pakistan.
At least, we can have a discussion around actionable points rather than “what about the Paki point of view”?

Posted by nvrforgetmbai | Report as abusive
 

@Gentlemen

Let us calm down. Pakistan is yet a sovereign state and is going to protect its interests and not that of the USA and India. Pakistan should ensure that no foreign groups are either located or operate from its territory!

India knows what they have to do to protect its interests, i.e to pull out its military from Kashmir and let the kashmiris decide their own future. stop military suppression against civilians. The kashmiri resistance would disappear.
Let the lame duck president now tells its people how he is going to justify his pay during the next two years.

Rex Minor

Posted by pakistan | Report as abusive
 

“I’m not convinced that the CFR report, with all the American bipartisan support behind it, gets there. “Do this or else,” just does not cut it.”

True enough. Pakistan has made it’s choice. Why is it so difficult for American policy-makers to understand?

Posted by trickey | Report as abusive
 

Pakistanis should read http://majorlyprofound.wordpress.com/201 0/11/12/strapping-the-suicide-vest-on-th e-kashmir-issue/

It takes on the Kashmiri red herring arguments directly.

Posted by trickey | Report as abusive
 

@”looking at Obama and Michelle dancing at the tunes of Bollywood songs i think they forget the thousands of Pakistani soldiers and civilians who died in this war. He did not even have a goodwill for a quick stopover in Islamabad”

So, you would’ve been happier, if Obama would’ve visited Pakistan for just 4/5 hours, while he was on his India visit? Wouldn’t you be offended then, that he visited India for almost 4 days & Pakistan for only 4 hours?

You have to realize that (at least as of now), US-India relations are on a completely different level that US-Pakistan. If the US could’ve gotten a couple of billion $$$ deals from Pakistan, trust me, Obama would have visited Pakistan on this trip. But the reality is that Pakistan currently is a $3.5 bn a year drag on the American tax payer while India will be pumping $10 bn in the US economy. If you want your country to be in the same league, eliminate all terrorism from your soil (not selective) & build your economy.

Posted by Mortal1 | Report as abusive
 

Mortal, you said:

“……If you want your country to be in the same league, eliminate all terrorism from your soil (not selective) & build your economy.”

–>Not going to happen, Mortal, Fauji’s like their business niche to much. How can we convince the Fauji’s to use their position to lift their people and expand their own existing businesses to a massive degree? Fauji’s don’t care about the welfare of their people, but care more about maintaining hatreds and wars. Their interest is not about peace and joy, but keeping the existing business niche where free money keeps raining down from allies and friends.

The Fauji’s don’t want to touch N. Waziristan, they are still keeping their eyes on the ultimate prize, long term war with India and keeping just enough heat on the eastern flank to keep India politically in turmoil over Kashmir.

I am surprised that the council on foreign relations has taken such a kid glove approach. You would have thought with a floundering Afghan mission and an ally that continually has been found out to be aiding and abetting the enemy, would be enough for prestigious thinktanks like the CFR to single out and call out the

Troublemakers from Pakistan, but for some reason, they have come short and want to keep wasting U.S. taxpayer dollars, while their loved ones keep getting butchered in Afghanistan.

These so-called “think tanks” are either really stupid, or have other plans in mind and just tell us the minimum amount that they want us to know.

Either way, CFR has not incentivized Pakistan to deliver fully on the fight against militants.

In case they have, and we just don’t know it, I sincerely hope they, the west have philosophically speaking, put both feet forward, when it comes to surgical, actionable, unilateral action on militants.

It is clear that Pakistan won’t, can’t or is not able to take on militants, with full commitment.

In this regard, if the CFR’s intentions are real, I am off base and we will see the Drones going deeper and deeper into Pakistan.

The status quo is unacceptable.

Posted by G-W | Report as abusive
 

Pakitan says:

“@Gentlemen

Let us calm down…..
India knows what they have to do to protect its interests, i.e to pull out its military from Kashmir and let the kashmiris decide their own future. stop military suppression against civilians. The kashmiri resistance would disappear.
…….

Rex Minor

–>Rex Minor, no more double standards anymore, Indian withdrawal from Kashmir, must happen with a concurrent withdrawal of Pakistan from Kashmir.

Please don’t hurl anymore verbal diahrea about Kashmir, unless you also advocate Pakistan vacating Kashmir. Fair is fair, azadi will be given from BOTH India and Pakistan, not just India, it will never happen!..it must occur from BOTH countries!

Posted by G-W | Report as abusive
 

@Trickey

Good weblink upload! Pakistanis must read. It tells me hope is there.

Posted by rehmat | Report as abusive
 

GW,

Along with building a long term US-Pakistan relationship, the CFR report also reccomends a lot of “sticks” for Pakistan, if they don’t change their ways & keep sheilding terrorism. It reccomends incentivization of the aid being given to Pakistan as well as increased drone strikes inside Pakistan to eliminate the Haqqani network & the LeT. In fact it projects that the LeT has the potential to become more dangerous than AlQaeda & therefore must be reigned in. It also mention about the US stregntening strategic ties with India & an increased role for India in Afghanistan. And finally, it also talks about the retribution plan to eliminate terror hideouts in Pakistan, if a successful attack in the US/west is traced to Pakistan. So, there’s a lotta stuff in there that suggests getting tough with Pakistan as well.

Posted by Mortal1 | Report as abusive
 

Trickey,

Thanks for that link. I think I found the Arundhati Roy equivalent in Pakistan. Indians do not like this lady much. I guess this “Major” may not be liked for his honest opinions.

Rex Minor, if you can read in English, you should be able to understand what he says.

Posted by KPSingh01 | Report as abusive
 

Umair Pk says:

“…..Unfortunately that is not the case, looking at Obama and Michelle dancing at the tunes of Bollywood songs i think they forget the thousands of Pakistani soldiers and civilians who died in this war. He did not even have a goodwill for a quick stopover in Islamabad and they think we will hand our country on a platter. This is not the way to forge partnerships……”

–>Wrong answer, the correct answer, if you were your own man, youngman Umair, would have been, if Indians can do that, we can be like that and better…that is the right answer.

BTW…what goodwill is Pakistan deserving of, when it helps the Haqqani’s, Afghan Taliban, won’t take on Quetta Shura and in many instances, gets caught aiding and abetting the enemies of American, while claiming to be an ally?!?!

Come on Umair, please explain how your Army can help those who kill U.S. soldiers in Afghanistan and you have the nerve to ask for goodwill and strategic partnerships and such? I don’t know what you have been smoking(perhaps Afghan Opium, I don’t know, tell me), but it has been destroying the basic reasoning and logic center in your brain. You can’t be stoking U.S and NATO failure on one end and on the other end be expecting an entitled pat on the back.

Richard Holbrooke was quoted as saying recently, something to the effect that:

“pakistan has made sacrifices…”

despite that he also said:

“an ally that helps our enemies”….

“the Pakistani’s know what our position is, we are not saying anything for or against them, but they know what is important to us and what is at stake, so let’s just leave it at that”….

I think, the U.S. visit, offering them a permanent UNSC seat, is the first step in India becoming a strategic, military, economic and political partner of choice for the U.S., ahead of Pakistan, especially with regards on the war on terror, militants and AQ.

If Pakistani’s thought it has been tough, if things keep going this way, it will get far worse.

India has not even lifted a finger, we are guilty of being progressive, successful, liked, and exercising embarassing (to pakistan) restraint. How can Richard and the U.S. not like India?

Posted by G-W | Report as abusive
 

Rex Minor,

According to your claim, you are a German. So how does it matter to you what India does with Kashmir? If Pakistanis have some gripe with it, I can understand that. You keep claiming you are not a Pakistani (while your signature says otherwise).

How does letting Kashmir off will solve all problems for Pakistan? In fact Pakistan badly looks for issues to continue its tug of war with India. And they rotate the issues if one of them loses steam – Indian consulates in Afghanistan, avenging East Pakistan, Gujerat, Ayodhya mosque demolition, RSS, BJP, Kashmir, Dams across rivers that feed into Pakistan, Mumbai attack investigation, RAW and so on. Stone pelting season in Kashmir is over.

LeT has gone the way of LTTE in Sri Lanka. Initially it was propped up to cause trouble to an enemy. As time went on LTTE turned against its own sponsors, the Indian government. Rajeev Gandhi’s assassination sealed off all ties to LTTE and it floated on its own. India closed off all routes and LTTE fell at the hands of the Sinhalese army. Now LeT was launched by Pakistan’s military. And if Pak military is telling the LeT cadres to wait it out, they are going to lose patience and start going on their own. When they do, they will be too powerful, much like the LTTE. At that time, Pak military will have to fight them. Fighting insurgents is the hardest game ever. Ask the Indians and Americans about it. The more Pak military hesitates, the worse it is going to get.

In fact they are itching to launch another Mumbai style offensive not only in India, but also elsewhere. This is because the fools who run the WOT have been openly announcing (much to Myra’s grief) that they will whip Pakistan if such an attack happens. This means they are throwing the bait and the LeT will respond. After all who does not like to bring the enemy into known territory and frustrate them? This is the same strategy Bin Laden has pursued and done well. The LeT might want to divide up the cozy relationship between Pak army and its US pay masters. The easiest way to do is to set up a flare in the US or Europe and wait for them to attack Pakistan. The cadres will go into hiding and Pak army will bear the brunt of the attacks. That is sufficient to divide the two. And Pak military will have a serious soul searching to do at that point – to side with the Americans and capture LeT cadres or launch a Jihad against the Americans. That will divide the army itself into half.

One thing to be realized is this – the think tank in the West is realizing that the best way to contain global Islamic terrorism is to set Pakistan on fire and let the elements fight each other. In other words, Pakistan will follow Afghanistan and turn into a rubble through internal squabbles. It will be easier to contain the source of all the fires by setting it on fire. The increased incidents of suicide bombs and deaths in Pakistan are in indication of the direction in which this war is heading. It is heading into the heartland of Pakistan.

Posted by KPSingh01 | Report as abusive
 

@KPSingh
Did I say I am a German?
The christians say love for the next one. I was brought up to show concern for others, consume less than what one needs so that others do not go hungary.
In my opinion Kashmir is the only issue which is keeping India and Pakistan at odds with each other. Quite frankly, it is my view that both India and Pakistan do no longer have the appetite for the land or the people of Kashmir. Both India and Pakistan have to gain more from commerce and peaceful relations with each other. I gather that you were not very keen about GW’s proposal to let the kashmiri decide their political future and let India and Pakistan support it.

I do not agree with your prognosis about the West and the think tank plans for extending the war in Pakistan. The Pashtoons run faster than the american machines, the rise of the entire tribes across the borders could knock out the entire foreign military now gathered in the so called war theatre.

No military in the world is trained to fight and make peace in a land. This is what the USA and the NATO are currently doing. The afghan recruits are now being taught english laguage, since the yanks found out that it would be easier to teach english to the afghans instead of learning dari or pashto by the marines!

All along you have overlooked other major potential players of the war;
. Saudis, very active betwee Taliban leaders and the USA
. Pakistan, ready to enter Afghanistan.

. Iran, ready to move its national guards
. China, not yet active but advising caution

Have a nice day.

Rex Minor

PS I am afraid muslims are too powerful in the world, the zonist propaganda did not work and Barrack has now polished up his muslim dress and wearing it.

Posted by pakistan | Report as abusive
 

@GW
You got into your fits again? Calm down, Ofcourse both molitaries of India and Pakistan should leave the kashmir territory. Did I forget to mention it? Sorry about it.
let us make adeal, why do’nt you convince the mob first and then get a green light from your leader in India, and I shall arrange the rest. How about it?

Rex Minor

Posted by pakistan | Report as abusive
 

@trickey
I am not very bright, could you please tell me what the referred the criminologist author on suicide action tells the reader? Does he reckon that all bombing actions and criminal acts are related to the kashmir issue?
Thanhs.

Rex Minor

Posted by pakistan | Report as abusive
 

@KPSingh
I have asked trickey the question about Major. If you have understood it, then please tell me what does the criminologist is talking about the suicide actors?

Rex Minor

Posted by pakistan | Report as abusive
 

Rex Minor: “The christians say love for the next one. I was brought up to show concern for others, consume less than what one needs so that others do not go hungary.”

Yet you feigned ignorance about the genocide in East Pakistan. I am sure you never knew about Chemical Ali who bombed your fellow Muslim brethren with chemicals that killed hundreds of innocent men, women and children. Guess where this was? If you are such a compassionate person as you claim, you will not be selective in your sympathy.

Geo-politics is a strange game. Why do you think Indian and Pakistani troops are fighting at 22000 feet altitude over barren ice desert? Are there any Muslims living there? It is a geo-strategic region, much like Afghanistan and Pakistan are. Give up an inch, you loose a mile. It has nothing to do with Muslims or Kashmiris or anything else. We have to defend our territory and integrity. I will agree to Indian government making life better for Kashmiris in the valley. That’s about it. Giving up Kashmir as a territory will be a geo-political suicide for India.

If India looked like Angola with vultures sitting patiently next to dying humans, it would have been prudent to simply chop it up into smaller nations and let some of them survive at least. But India has worked hard to be an emerging economic power. It cannot afford to let the vultures prey on its integrity. India is not doing anything to its neighbors today. Its goals are progressive. Therefore it makes no sense to simply let Kashmir go so that some Pakistanis and some Rex Minors can sit and thump their chests. We are quite familiar with these feelings for fellow human croc tears. Shed them for the Gypsies in Europe.

Posted by KPSingh01 | Report as abusive
 

@KPSingh, Gw
tell me, how do you reckon a asuper power like USA or NATO or even Pakistan military is going to win an asymmetric war?
I am sure Mr Obama administration would welcome your suggestions if they are practical. Incidently, they also want to know how they can get out of this mess?

Rex minor

Posted by pakistan | Report as abusive
 

Rex minor: “I have asked trickey the question about Major. If you have understood it, then please tell me what does the criminologist is talking about the suicide actors?”

All Major is saying is that Pakistanis need to give up the notion that settling Kashmir will bring peace to the whole region. He says all the suicide attacks and bombings in Pakistan have no relevance to Kashmir. They are all due to rearing militancy by Pakistan’s army in order to use it as a weapon. I think it was specifically addressed to you and Umair.

Posted by KPSingh01 | Report as abusive
 

Rex Minor: “tell me, how do you reckon a asuper power like USA or NATO or even Pakistan military is going to win an asymmetric war?
I am sure Mr Obama administration would welcome your suggestions if they are practical. Incidently, they also want to know how they can get out of this mess?”

They have changed the definition of everything. They are no longer into “defeating” the Taliban. It has been changed to “disrupting” their moves. In counter insurgency you cannot defeat an enemy when that enemy is as fuzzy as the cloud. But you can set up road blocks and make it difficult for them to run their insurgency. In due course, insurgency can be contained, but not eliminated.

They are not exactly after the Taliban either. They do not mind allowing the Taliban to exist. The only gripe is that Taliban is adamant about housing Al Qaeda. If the mission is completed without ensuring that Taliban does not support Al Qaeda, then this war would have gone nowhere. If Taliban gives up its support to Al Qaeda, the US and NATO are not going to mess with them. They only want to weaken the Taliban to the extent that it agrees to come to the negotiating table and makes a pact with others. Of course Taliban itself is a loose organization with many independent units that can go their own ways.

Thirdly there is Pakistan’s military and its ISI. So far the US/NATO coalition has dealt with these two entities as allies who cannot be trusted entirely. And these two are the foundation stones for supporting the Taliban as well as Al Qaeda. They manipulate the strings from above and have been playing a dodging game with the COAS so that they will leave soon in frustration. It is a big gamble that they are taking. If the Americans do not leave soon, the blow back will get worse. And there is a threshold beyond which it will hurt Pakistan, which is the support base for both Taliban and Al Qaeda. By eroding Pakistan, the other two can be weakened.

Now they are defining a 2014 time line in the latest NATO meeting. This means they are not going to leave for another three years. They are working on propping up the Afghan military and police. If that does not meet the expectations, they might stay even longer. At some point the camel’s back is going to break.

Posted by KPSingh01 | Report as abusive
 

PS
Mr Hoolbrooke is not that bright either. Like me he must be also confused with the names of the so many groups. How does one tackle so many groups of resistance. He was briefed about the alquaeda ideology only and one man BL, supposedly living in caves. He was not aware of the never ending hindukush and the himalaya rqange of mountains. The FOX NEWS have got the guy trapped. He has now to live it out for another two years, or perhaps earlier.

Rex Minor

Posted by pakistan | Report as abusive
 

@KPSingh
But how do I read your thesis. The road blocks are being set up and controlled by the Pashtoons, not the americans or NATO, and we are told almost on a daily basis the nationality of the guy who has been killed. Is it not very cruel for the parents of the young soldiers who are being killed thousands of kilometres away from their homes without even coming into contact with the enemy?

Rex Minor

Posted by pakistan | Report as abusive
 

Umairpk: “looking at Obama and Michelle dancing at the tunes of Bollywood songs i think they forget the thousands of Pakistani soldiers and civilians who died in this war.”

They came to remember the hundreds who died in Mumabi at the hands of terrorists sent in by Pakistan. Your soldiers are dying for the same reason. Your Musharraf simply abandoned your troops killed during the Kargil war. They had to be buried with honors by the Indian military.

http://www.pakistan.tv/videos-kargil-war -pakistani-army-surrenders-%5BIS8cKBgNsO I%5D.cfm

Your military generals, corps commanders, colonels and captains are responsible for the misery your country is facing. And their seniors have the blood of 300000 people killed in East Pakistan as well.

“He did not even have a goodwill for a quick stopover in Islamabad and they think we will hand our country on a platter.”

If Al Qaeda had not attacked New York or US embassies in Africa, the US will not care if Pakistan exists or not. Pakistan’s strategic value during cold war ended with that war. At that time the US and Pakistan had a common enemy. Today, the enemy of US is the friend of Pakistan. And they can’t really punish that enemy because Pakistan is preventing it from happening. That should explain why Obama did not visit Pakistan on his way out of India.

“This is not the way to forge partnerships and they are creating conditions where similarly back in late 70s a corrupt regime of Shah of Iran was propped up which eventually resulted in a revolution and overthrow.”

The US has not installed any regime in Pakistan against public will. In Iran it did. Pakistanis voted their leaders to power to be puppets of your military.

“This corrupt PPP government is also useless only hope is the patriotic Army which can bring the feuding politicians to one table and think better for the country.”

The corrupt PPP government is dangling from the strings moved around by your army. It is now sitting on the back seat calling the shots. This is so that in the eyes of the donor countries Pakistan appears to be working towards a civilian rule and money keeps coming. Your military has found it better to run the affairs by using puppets on the string rather than direct rule. Musharraf has taught them what not to do. If things go wrong the puppets take the blame. If money is needed from abroad, the puppets go and get them. And the military can sit back and take everything brought in by the clowns.

We all can see this very clearly. We can also see that blind fold across your eyes that was tied by the military cartel.

Posted by KPSingh01 | Report as abusive
 

@KPSingh
Then I agree with the author patialy. Kashmir is only relevant when the Pakistan military runs into Kashmiri groups, not those Pashtoons or the arab suicide groups who are resistung the intrusion of foreign and the Pakistan military into the Pashtoon territory on both sides of the border. The author should have benn selective and not put the whole lot in one pot. I agree with your prognosis on the Kashmiri resistance group potential strikes against India, not against Pakistan.

Rex Minor

Posted by pakistan | Report as abusive
 

@KPSingh
I guess you cannot keep calm for more than 12 hours. I am not a genocide expert like George clooney, nor am I able to have a record of the crimes being commited around the world.The UNO has. I am also not a fool to run to the judgement simply because the spin comes from the anglo saxon set up. Have we not witnessed colin powe lying in the UNO?
The former President of the US is telling the world openly that he authorised the torture. The USA does not accept the jurisdiction of the UNO against the american citizens. Mr Obama has ordered that those who commited torture against the prisoners and broke the USA law are not eligible for prosecution since they had the orders from the President. Now how about that? You do not have to always run after the authoritative Govts. crimes but first question the performance of the so called democratic countries, such as India, Britain and the USA.

Rex Minor

Posted by pakistan | Report as abusive
 

“@trickey
I am not very bright, could you please tell me what the referred the criminologist author on suicide action tells the reader? Does he reckon that all bombing actions and criminal acts are related to the kashmir issue?
Thanhs.

Rex Minor”

Scroll to the top of the page. Search for “Kashmir” in your browser. When you get to the first article/comment hit, you will know then, why I pasted the link and how ‘Kashmir’ entered this discussion about AfPak.

Posted by trickey | Report as abusive
 

Sometimes I wonder how many of you are willing to get out of the Babylon Prison? I guess not many.

Unless India and Pakistan do not make an effort to free themselves from the babylonian prison, their region is going to become the theatre for the 3ww.
Let us try at least to upgrade our views of the world and propose solutions instead of following the one way strategy of the Govts. Believe you me , the leaders of the USA , India and Pakistan have failed to free themselves of the machiavillian politics and placed themselves in the babylonian prison. You are the future, try to break the stalemate and march on the road to peace. No snotty comments on each other. Thank you.

Rex Minor

Posted by pakistan | Report as abusive
 

@PS
correction; unless India and Pakistan MAKE AN EFFORT………

Rex Minor

Posted by pakistan | Report as abusive
 

pakistan: “unless India and Pakistan MAKE AN EFFORT………”

Actually India wants to have nothing to do with Pakistan. It is only an irritant from our stand point. We do not need Pakistan for anything. Therefore the gripe seems to come from Pakistan holding on to issues with India and trying to poke at India in order to survive. India has its barrel in Pakistan’s direction just so that the generals there do not get crazy ideas. If Pakistan minds its own business and focuses on its survival and growth, no one in India really cares much about Pakistan or its affairs. It is a house on fire. Therefore we have to keep our safety precautions ready. That’s all. As far Kashmir issue, I have already blown enough into the deaf ears about why India cannot let go of the geo-strategic region. And it is between us and the Kashmiris. Pakistan today has nothing to do with it. If you throw in the Ummah concept, I have given enough counter points to show that it is absolutely meaningless, considering the hypocrisy shown by Pakistan.

Posted by KPSingh01 | Report as abusive
 

pakistan: “The USA does not accept the jurisdiction of the UNO against the american citizens. Mr Obama has ordered that those who commited torture against the prisoners and broke the USA law are not eligible for prosecution since they had the orders from the President. Now how about that? ”

Why is it such a horrendous thing to use torture for countries like US, UK, India etc while it is all right for Pashtuns, Tajiks, Pakistanis etc? Are you implying that the people you support are not civilized and belong to the class of barbarians? Afghans are famous for peeling skins off and pulling tongues and eye balls out.

I am not supporting torture. But criminals have become highly sophisticated and clever. They use human rights violation demands from civil societies and extract sympathy from them, while violating every norm and moral code towards others. You are a Muslim and your holy book prescribes an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth. So if some of your brothers engage in hurting others, they should expect to get it back from them as well.

Posted by KPSingh01 | Report as abusive
 

@KPSingh
Because the Geneva convention agreement prohibits the torture of prisoners of war. USA is the signatory of the agreement, whereas, the Pashtoons or Tajiks have not. Are Pashtoons and Tajiks torture their prisoners?
with regard to your reference to the scriptures, it would be difficult for you to understand it, leave these for the muslims, jews and christians.

Rex Minor

Posted by pakistan | Report as abusive
 

pakistan: “Because the Geneva convention agreement prohibits the torture of prisoners of war.”

Geneva convention only applies to those who honor those conventions. If Pashtuns, Tajiks, Arab criminals are not signatories to those conventions, then they cannot expect treatment according to those conventions. Criminals do not obey law. Those who obey law are free to roam around. But criminals cannot demand the same right as free citizens to roam around. Those who agree to abide by the law can demand that right when denied to them. Those who do not, cannot. It is as simple as that.

Posted by KPSingh01 | Report as abusive
 

Pakistan,

On a similar note, there are conventions signed by civil nations regarding prisoners of war, chemical weapon restrictions, nukes etc. Terrorists that you support do not adhere to any such conventions. They do not even wear proper soldier uniforms and do not represent any official organizations. But when it comes to them, they want all laws applied to protect them. And I do not subscribe to that. Criminals have separate set of rules and they vary from one country to another. Torture is standard practice in many countries including India and Pakistan. It is unfortunate. But that seems to work in some cases. Someone like Ajmal Kasab can laugh even after being tortured. And one cannot apply humane rules towards him. He will respond to the Pashtun and Tajik treatment for sure.

Posted by KPSingh01 | Report as abusive
 

Rex Minor said:
> Unless India and Pakistan do not make an effort
> correction; unless India and Pakistan MAKE AN EFFORT

You *are* from the subcontinent, aren’t you? Urdu is your mothertongue (“Jab tak Hindustan aur Pakistan koshish *nahin* karte”).

No one else but a speaker of one of the North Indian languages would make that mistake.

So that’s why you’re so interested in Pakistan. You are Pakistani after all. Shahzad? (Prince, Rex Minor?)

Regards,
Ganesh Prasad

Posted by prasadgc | Report as abusive
 

@Rex Minor,

Please explain the babylonian prison. you have mentioned that a few times….

Please describe and give details.

I hope I did not confuse the issue, I just want you to be a little more explanatory.

Posted by G-W | Report as abusive
 

I gather that the mob is once again out! I even get the impression that the paranoid is in the second stage now. It is probably not your fault, we were subject to a cyber attack couple of hours before. You also forgot to the rules of proper communication.
I am not the right addressee for your feelings or emotions or rudeness, nor am I obliged to answer your questions. You can easily google or read the morning papers. Bu I am sure that if you guys were to read your comments a couple of times before posting it, you would probably reflect on it, become more serious and less emotional and perhaps not post it. if you do not agree with my opinion then move on and share your views with those of your kind and more or less similar views.

You guys are just playing with words, no new substance and absence of intuition. Some of you start raising questions as if I am on reuters payrol, even Myra is allowing you a free hand to spit out comments which are totaly not related to the subject.

You are forcing me to use the merlyn weapon of turning my back and assume that you have disappeared. Let me try that to see if it works. Bye Bye. Have fun-Rehmat special.

Rex Minor

Posted by pakistan | Report as abusive
 

Pakistan: “I am sure that if you guys were to read your comments a couple of times before posting it, you would probably reflect on it, become more serious and less emotional and perhaps not post it.”

Have you tried doing it yourself? You are the one writing nonsensical stuff based on what you heard on the streets of your ghetto somewhere. You provide no substantiating references on anything that your project. You keep coming up with the same round of nonsense in every article. If you are expecting us to butt worship Pashtuns like you are doing, you are in the wrong place. At least go and read the works of Ahmed Rashid and enlighten yourself.

Posted by KPSingh01 | Report as abusive
 

http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp  ?page=2010%5C11%5C16%5Cstory_16-11-2010 _pg7_19

Don’t mess with Pakistan —By Pervez Musharraf

Posted by Umairpk | Report as abusive
 

Umairpk: “Don’t mess with pakistan”

The very title sounds like a warning. Is Musharraf warning the world of any dire consequences? I went through the article. Musharraf is known as a double dealer and a very convincing liar. His deeds are testament to this observation. He portrays Pakistan as helpless victim who had no choice but to seek the path it chose. It is always others who are to blame. I see that reflected in the views expressed by most Pakistanis. This is purely due to his military indoctrination and nothing else. Musharraf turned double dealing into an art. Pakistan is being looked at with no trust by others because of what he has set up. He is sitting comfortably in London penning his views there. He will be shot the moment he steps into Pakistan.

Posted by KPSingh01 | Report as abusive
 

Umairpk: “Don’t mess with pakistan”

The very title sounds like a warning. Is Musharraf warning the world of any dire consequences? I went through the article. Musharraf is known as a double dealer and a very convincing liar. His deeds are testament to this observation. He portrays Pakistan as helpless victim who had no choice but to seek the path it chose. It is always others who are to blame. I see that reflected in the views expressed by most Pakistanis. This is purely due to his military indoctrination and nothing else. Musharraf turned double dealing into an art. Pakistan is being looked at with no trust by others because of what he has set up. He is sitting comfortably in London penning his views there. He will be shot the moment he steps into Pakistan.

Posted by KPSingh01 | Report as abusive
 

KPSingh:”The very title sounds like a warning. Is Musharraf warning the world of any dire consequences?”

-KP the problem is everytime I need to give you a history lesson, you must try to put yourself in a Pakistan’s shoes and think. Try to understand under what context Musharraf wrote what he wrote.
Lets dig deeper and look further, lets go back to the era of late 70s and the 80s. The BCCI-Bank of Credit and Commerce scandal that rocked the financial world, followed by a massive coverup by US. BCCI was by and large a Pakistani bank or to put it this way 80% of its people were Pakistani. It served as a banker to everyone from the South American drug cartels to Palestinian resistance groups like Abu Nidal. Look up the sandstorm report a secret British report on the bank, its corrupt practices, financing Pakistan’s covert nuclear program to money laundering and even CIA used it for arms deals. Israelis were also involved through it in arms sales etc. On top of this all this was going on with full knowledge of British and American intelligence community, US tried a massive coverup of BCCI scandal which was no less than watergate, the reason was it could have exposed some of the own dirty work of CIA. Fianlly US customs moved in to arrest BCCI officials in Florida and the bank fell apart, all its branches offices in 70 countries closed as well as its offices in London and elsewhere siezed.
Similarly, ISI was nothing till 1979, only after Soviet Afghan invasion did money and weapons came in and ISI became so powerful it became a state within a state. Now blame the ISI support of LeT on CIA, there is where the origins of the problem lies. Gen. Zia Ul Haq was the darling of the west at that time.
Now look at what happened to each of them, when the job was done, BCCI was eliminated. When the Afghan war ended Zia met his end in a mysterious plane crash, when the 9-11 happened fingers were pointed at ISI indirectly without proof and Af-Pak border region was termed as headquarter of a terror group Al Qaida (former CIA allies).
I am saying we are all in this together, no one is innocent. People like Congressman Charlie Wilson rallied for Mujahideen support and defeated one super poer (USSR) inadvertantly starting the decilne of another super power (9-11, USA) you can find the origins of today’s problems and trace it back to these events.
Pakistan today faces unpredented challenges and needs help from international community. True, maybe some of actions could have negative impact in the past. Today, Pakistan needs to ensure its soil is not used for terrorism, and its people deserve good governance and need to build a strong economy. That is it, Pakistan is not a threat to any other country nor do we have enmity with people of other faith. Time and again so-called allies have messed up with Pakistan, they need a clear strategy when it comes to Pakistan now to help put the country back on right track.

Posted by Umairpk | Report as abusive
 

Pakistan: A battered bulwark

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/dbac9da6-edd2- 11df-9612-00144feab49a.html?ftcamp=rss#

-And KPSingh, you think Pakistan is now irrelevant for US, I reckon the US not only needs Pakistan to be on its side. Ironically, if Pakistan could defeat terrorists only then can US achieve a face saving exit from Afghanistan. If Pakistan helped the downfall of USSR, this time around too its only Pakistan that could help prevent a decline of US and ensure it does not loose face and loose the Afghan war. the rest id your observation and you are entitled to your own views.

Posted by Umairpk | Report as abusive
 

@Umair
I do not mean to be unfriendly, but I must tell you that Musharaf is the wrong massenger for the message”Do’nt mess with Pakistan” which is accurate. He has the bloody cheek to come out with his fairy tales as if he is still the President of a country. He seems to be very proud to have fought in former East Pakistan. Fought agaist whom, the civilians and then surrendered against the Indian military. I wonder what is his opinion about the genocide in bengal?

Pakistan reputation has suffered the worst during his military rule and for wrong reasons. Pakistanis have no reasons to be proud of this man and for once KPSingh has given an unbiased and real cool opinion.

He was born in Delhi,India and failed to bring peace to his country of birth. He prospered in his adopted country and brought about nothing but pain, disunity and disgrace and finaly his own downfal.
In the end as a President he fell out with his former Pashtoon allies, the so called talibans, and was not even able to defend a woman who left her exile and wanted to bring in democracy. He left in disgrace for the west and is now loafing about on edgware road hoping to meet some arab so that he can him.

As an artillery officer he was trained to fire artilery shells at the enemy, from a safe distance. In my opinion he is through and through a con man, a fraud and definitely not a heroe. He caved in against the threats of a US flunky in Pakistan. he says he fought in Bengal but does not mention about the genocide.

Politically a weak Pakistan is his legacy.

Rex Minor

Posted by pakistan | Report as abusive
 

Rex

I agree Musharraf is a controversial figure, I fully agree with your analysis and there is a reason why he was ousted. The Army, and people were fed up of his policies, much like G.W Bush was disgraced later in his presidency to the point that a journalist threw his shoes on him.

I only shared the article Musharraf wrote, I have yet to go through it in detail and see what he wrote. For now lets not focus on the man himself and just see what he wrote and if there is anything substantial in his writing.

Posted by Umairpk | Report as abusive
 

Rex:”In the end as a President he fell out with his former Pashtoon allies.”

-Rex, though I am not a Pushtoon but I was born in Peshawar, I know what it means to break an agreement with a Pushtoon. It all started when in 2004 he sent in the first Pakistan Army formations into the Pashtoon lands. Traditionally these brave warriors looked after Pakistan’s western border and Pakistan Army never had to worry about deployment there. The tribal pushtoons had enough weapons and fighting skill to defend the border. Today many of those pushtoons are rebellious and I still do not fully understand the problem. Can you help me here, I would question why do some of TTP groups attack innocent people? Isn’t it wrong? and when they do, outsiders say look this is suppose to be the religion of peace. Whatever the enmity, we need to settle down and workaround the situation.

Posted by Umairpk | Report as abusive
 

@Myra,

The single one biggest thing that Pakistan needs to do, is collectively come to a realization that INDIA IS NOT A DANGER, NOR THE ENEMY OF PAKISTAN.

The U.S. has tried to impress this simple concept to the Pakistani Army, but they casually keep rejecting it, in an automaton like programmed fashion.

The entire Pak Army and Pakistani mindset has been hardwired to hate India and perceive India as a threat. In this regard, the Army has successfully propagated a ghostly myth that India wants to harm Pakistani’s. Hate is an easy emotion to implant into others, especially when religion is used to do it.

The question is, how do you convince Pakistani’s that India is not hostile, never has been and never will be?

The CFR has not tried to take this understanding of India being non-threatening as of the utmost importance.

The CFR, the west in general have to understand that their interests in Afghanistan and otherwise will fare much better success if they apply more sincere effort in convincing the Pakistani Army that India is not the enemy, the enemy is within. Most of the radicalization in Pakistan and militantization has been formed from these myths propagated by the PA.

It is time to undo those myths and undoing those myths and greater windows of success for the west in Afghanistan lie in making Rawalpindi and Islamabad understand that forced enmity upon the people of Pakistan against India has been a counterproductive and losing measure as a tool for national unity.

Posted by G-W | Report as abusive
 

GW:

“The CFR, the west in general have to understand that their interests in Afghanistan and otherwise will fare much better success if they apply more sincere effort in convincing the Pakistani Army that India is not the enemy, the enemy is within.”

I must say you are really forcing peace down Pakistani throat. CFR cannot do this job, no one can.

Myra’s philosophy is “People do stuff because it is in their interests to do so, or because they choose to do so.”

Pakistan (MIS)perception is that it is not in their interest yet.

Posted by rehmat | Report as abusive
 

Umairpk: “KP the problem is everytime I need to give you a history lesson, you must try to put yourself in a Pakistan’s shoes and think.”

Umair, I understand your view point. However, I strongly suggest that the paranoia about India be given up in today’s context. Until 9/11, India did look at Pakistan as an enemy state because of all the events that happened. Now there is a clear view that Pakistanis themselves are beginning to see the menace of terrorism and the repercussions of sponsoring terrorism.

India learned this lesson the hard way when it sponsored Tamil terrorists inside Sri Lanka during the 1980s and the complete debacle of the IPKF mission followed by the assassination of Rajeev Gandhi. At that time, the LTTE looked as sinister as the LeT. There were fears that the LTTE would spread its movement into the southern state of Tamil Nadu to gain more ground. This meant violent struggle for a separate Tamil country that would cover the state in India and the northern part of Sri Lanka.

India was broke in 1991. It had a power vacuum at the top. No one know what would happen to the country. By some luck, the remaining politicians got together and formed a coalition government that opened up the economy. The same man who is now India’s PM, was the finance minister and he became the architect of India’s economic progress. In a matter of two decades, India absolutely did away with sponsoring terrorism. LTTE was decimated and destroyed in Sri Lanka and India did nothing to interfere. Sri Lankans are happy today.

India has not interfered in the affairs of Bangladesh or Nepal or Burma. If you extend that further, India will not interfere in Pakistan’s affairs either. There is no need to keep India as an enemy any further. The country has learned to focus on what matters.

People like Musharraf belong to the old school that saw wars and conflicts. They will never change their perception of India. And Musharraf cannot be trusted by anyone. He is one guy who can sell his mother at the drop of a hat and walk with no feelings of conscience. He can say whatever he wants. Pakistanis need to look at India in a different view. There is no use living in the past. If past is brought up it only brings in heated arguments that never seem to end.

Your military needs to reduce its animosity towards India. You are nuclear powered. You know no one will touch your country. So why all this paranoia about India? For India to pull all of its troops away from Kashmir and Pakistan’s borders, goodwill has to flow from Pakistan. India will surely reciprocate it. Your military might still have old hard liners that think like Musharraf, but people like you need to think for yourselves.

There is absolutely no need for all this friction and enmity between the two neighbors. We can at least decide not to bother each other and go our own ways. But that will send a shock wave through your political and military establishments. India as an enemy has defined Pakistan. So long as that belief exists, Pakistan will find harder and harder times. Hope you guys realize this.

Just like your statement that ISI had not teeth prior to 1979, RAW today has no teeth either. Intelligence gathering is always going on. But RAW is not allowed to set up flares in other countries anymore. There is no need for it today.

Hope I have made myself clear.

Posted by KPSingh01 | Report as abusive
 

@Umair
Though shall not kill is the God’s commandment! Islam is the religion of peace and so is judaism and christianity. But not all the followers of these religions are peaceful!! Ofcourse it is wrong and criminal to kill the innocents.

We all know what happened in NY and the invasion of Afghanistan, the regime change and the Pashtoons resistance against the western troops.

Now on the pakistan side of the border, PA underMusharaf muddled up things, probably communication problems, lack of Pashto knowledge perhaps.
Then came the military intrusion into the pashtoon territory starting from swat and ending in waziri land.
you said you were born in Peshawar and therefore should know that Pashtoons like the scilians always take a revengeif one of their family member is murdered. Now you follow this theory and this means an endless explosions and deaths for the next decade in Pakistan towns against the security forces.

I do not have the faintest idea as to
which of the powerful groups are operating against the pakistan military for a personal vendetta, or against their support for the foreign troops. I am pretty sure of one thing the security situation throughout Pakistan is now in the hands of little Pashtoons. They can strike anywhere. how do you tackle suicide commandos?you also have lots of ethnic strifes within the communities. Sometimes one gets the impression that friday gatherings are becoming the ideal targets.
In my opinion it was shabby, I despise military violence against civilians. They went into the autonomous region with force. Pakistan military has now to prove that they are more powerful than the waziris.
It is useless for general kyani, the ex ISI man to lobby the retired secretary of state, colin powel and explaining the difiicult terrain of the Pashtoon territory.
The Pashtoon tribal territory on both sides of the border is an autonomous region. The brits during the colonial period entered into an agreement with the tribal chiefs, allowing them the use of roads upto the so called durand line,(to my knowledg not yet recognised by the Afghan Govt),as well as a certain area near the towns, against a fee and other benefits. for almost a century the agreement was held. Any violation of the agreemnt by the Brits ended in battles with the tribesmen causing heavy casualties to the Brits.and the normality came only after mediation.
This is history now but the agreement is still valid. After 1947 more and more benfits were granted to the tribal population to integrate them with the population in towns.
What Pakistan needs is the reforms, a national army, restructured education system and the judicial system. But now Pakistan is at war within the communities, a weak civil society and strong military but no visionary Prime minister or a President. Sorry i wrote a lot, not remembering what the question was.
Mr KPsingh believes I do not have enough knowledge of Pakistan and should read Ahmad Rashid. he writes a lot and must be making lots of money like mr Msharaf. I am not sure if mr Rashid speaks Pashto, if not the guy is no better than Musharaf.

I am sorry if you were expecting a different reply. Take care.
rex Minor

Posted by pakistan | Report as abusive
 

As a side note, I’d like to say that Indian military never stepped in to take over power, even though political situation reached its nadir on many occasions. Because of that non-interference, Indian democracy could take care of itself and grow with time. This is something military sympathizers in Pakistan will find hard to realize.

Posted by KPSingh01 | Report as abusive
 

@Umair
Do not worry about the outsiders! And what they say!

The old chancellor of the german republic once said in his exchange with margret Thatcher the British Prime minister and i quote, ” The caravans march on regardless of the barking dogs, and others must first remove the dirt in front of their house before looking at ours”.

People in Pakistan is the valuable asset and I know that they are resilient more so than their ancestors were or their current rulers. A national army, national universities, compulsary education, and compulsary military service are the basics for a society. Self reliance and faith in the almighty are the keys for success.

Rex Minor

Posted by pakistan | Report as abusive
 

@KPSingh
Is it not illegal for the military to use violent force causing deaths against the civilian citizens in a democracy?

Rex Minor

Posted by pakistan | Report as abusive
 

RexThank you sir, and I agree with you 101% on what you stated. “What Pakistan needs is the reforms, a national army, restructured education system and the judicial system. But now Pakistan is at war within the communities, a weak civil society and strong military but no visionary Prime minister or a President.”

I am sure your anaylsis of the situation and understanding is very accurate. I do not reccomend you to read XYZ author, rather remain an observer and independent thinker form your own informed judgement and opinion.
Your question as to which of the groups are against Pakistan Army. According to my knowledge,the TTP_(Tehrik Taliban Pakistan) a loose coalition of groups is fighting against Pak Army, they are joined by many splinter groups from Southern Punjab. They have a sectarian hardline Sunni thinking, personal vendetta (Red Mosque incident) and support of US mission in Afghanistan are the reasons. While 2009 was a bloody year, many casualties on both sides, but the tide has slightly turned. Pak Army had successful campaigns in Swat and South Waziristan while North Waziristan remains a trouble spot. Its a bee hive, you poke it and they will come after you causing great collateral damage to local populace something Pakistan Army cannot afford. In short it is a tangled situation, with the Army stretched beyond limit of normal endurance.
The US entered in Afghanistan back in 2001 and after that there was an influx of some more groups to try to find a refuge in Pak tribal areas. Their mentors are foreign Arab Al-Qaida who potray to liberate Pakistan from western influence and influence the local Pakistani groups. The Army needs to sharpen its counterinsurgency tactics and time to tackle the situation politically. Ultimately insurgencies have to be ended through integration and rehabilitation, they can never be won. This is something all stakeholders need to acknowledge and accept.
And as you stated above it would require leadership, education, reforms, investment, time, effort and resources to turn around the situation.

Posted by Umairpk | Report as abusive
 

Rex:”People in Pakistan is the valuable asset and I know that they are resilient more so than their ancestors were or their current rulers. A national army, national universities, compulsary education, and compulsary military service are the basics for a society. Self reliance and faith in the almighty are the keys for success.”

-Thanks again for the incouraging words, it tells me all is not lost. I can assure you people in Pakistan are very resilient, I have seen myself the bombings, then rebuilding stronger and everyone getting back to work with a greater resolve. I wish peace for all of us.

Could you just elaborate on the concept of national Army? I know ours is a nationalistic Army. I wonder what should be a national Army? does it mean representing all ethnic people in the national Army?

Posted by Umairpk | Report as abusive
 

Rex:”PA underMusharaf muddled up things, probably communication problems, lack of Pashto knowledge perhaps.”

-This is where i can set the record straight, with an overwhelming Pushtoon officers/men in the Army and with the rear Air headquarters and Air Force academy in Khyber province i do not think communication gaps or lack of pushtoon language/culture caused error in jusdgement. The Army knows what it has been doing, the reasons may be different.

Posted by Umairpk | Report as abusive
 

Umair,

There is absolutely no doubt that Pakistan & Pakistanis can be a great asset to the world. In recent times, you may have seen many world leaders shower praises on India. There’s no reason why they can’t do the same for Pakistan because at the end of the day, we’re the same people. Even science has proven that more app. 90% of Pakistanis have the same Y-chromosome haplogroup, the same DNA molecule & the same DNA sequence as Indians (which is both % & numbers wise, more than Bangladeshis, Sri Lankans or Nepalese). So Pakistanis can pretty much do & achieve anything that the Indians can. In fact, Pakistan being a smaller country, can grow economically, at a much faster pace than India & China as well. But having said the above, I don’t see the needed socio-economic transformation in Pakistan happening, until & unless the reigns of your country are taken away from the military establishment of your country. Agreed, democracy is flawed & can be highly frustrating in developing countries like India & Pakistan but you Pakistanis will have to trust the system, be patient and sooner or later, the right kind of leadership will emerge, to take Pakistan on the road to prosperity. India also had to wait 40+ years before some good leadership came along. The military establshment should become what it is SUPPOSED to be, a defense arm of & under the democratically elected Govt of Pakistan and nothing more than that.

Posted by Mortal1 | Report as abusive
 

Rex Minor: “Is it not illegal for the military to use violent force causing deaths against the civilian citizens in a democracy?”

You need to understand what democracy is and how it cannot be applied to law and order issue. I can see that you are assuming democracy to be a system in which rights, fairness, equality etc are guaranteed. But that is not the case. Democracy is simply a system by which a country’s leaders are elected by its citizens. That’s it. All the other items like rights, equality etc are separate from electing a government. What you are referring to is a modern civilization. I don’t think there is any nation in the world that can fit that.

Coming to the human rights abuse by a military – it is not justified. But it depends upon if the military is deployed to bring order to a place or if it is sent in to fight an enemy hiding in the midst of the public. When removing weeds, one cannot help destroying good grass. And military is the last resort when all else fails. And whether a country is a democracy or not, military assignments to maintain internal law and order under extreme circumstance will be the same.

The civilian government of India has not issued an order to its military to go and kill so many people every day. If that was the case, then you are correct in condemning it and we all are with you on it. However, if a military is sent in to quell chaos and maintain order, that is a different thing. And when military clamps down a place, normally no one is allowed to move. That’s how a military deals with matters. Counter insurgency is complicated. If you are referring to Kashmir, Indian military was called in by the Kashmir’s chief minister Omar Abdullah after all efforts to quell protestors and stone pelters failed.

In 1971, Pakistan’s military was given the command to go in and kill the Bengalis and slaughter them so that they never dare rise again. This was done to punish Sheikh Mujibur Rehman who was legally a winner in the national elections with majority seats in Pakistan’s parliament. He was to be sworn in as President. But ZA Bhutto and Yahya Khan could not allow for that. So they quelled the protest against injustice by the Bengalis by sending in Pakistan’s military. The order was to systematically capture intellectuals, leaders and students and gun them down. The whole thing was illegal – denying an elected man his right to become a country’s President and ordering the massacre of his people to show where they belonged. And taking over a legal government by means of a coup is also an illegal act.

As far as I know, a democratic nation of India has not given such draconian orders to its military. Therefore what the Indian military is doing is justifiable. I’d say they can relax the control a bit more and bring in accountability.

Posted by KPSingh01 | Report as abusive
 

Umairpk to Rex: “I do not reccomend you to read XYZ author, rather remain an observer and independent thinker form your own informed judgement and opinion.”

You can phrase it better this way – “turn deaf ears to anything that points a finger at Pakistan and read only material that aligns with your views. Close your eyes and ears and follow your instinct. Close your mind and do not follow any logic. Repeat lies until it becomes a truth. Your enemy’s enemy is automatically your friend. Just keep saying the same thing no matter what others say to prove that your ideas are warped. Ignore any credible evidence that they might provide.”

Based on my interactions with the yoyos here, that is the understanding I get about them.

Posted by KPSingh01 | Report as abusive
 

Umairpk: “Could you just elaborate on the concept of national Army? I know ours is a nationalistic Army.”

A national army is one that owns a country. Fore example, Pakistani army is one.
It is not nationalistic as you imply. It keeps Balochis and Sindhis under its thumb. In fact your Musharraf told the Balochi leaders, “Don’t mess with us.”

Pakistan’s army is made up of uniformed soldiers on one side and then an equal number of soldiers who do not wear the uniform. The training given is the same for both. The uniformed group is for protecting Al Qaeda, Taliban leaders etc. The other group is for holy war. Some of its valiant soldiers were dispatched to Mumbai to fight and kill innocent civilians.

Posted by KPSingh01 | Report as abusive
 

Rex Minor: “Mr KPsingh believes I do not have enough knowledge of Pakistan and should read Ahmad Rashid. he writes a lot and must be making lots of money like mr Msharaf. I am not sure if mr Rashid speaks Pashto, if not the guy is no better than Musharaf.”

Mr. Ahmad Rashid has wriiten three famous books – one on Taliban, one on Central Asian crisis and the third one, “Descent into chaos” is his best work. He did not write them in Pashto. But he did write them in English. Another respectable Pakistani writer is Tariq Ali. These people do not write non-sense. They are highly respected writers in the international circles. If you read their works, you will understand how Pakistan’s military has derailed the nation and brought chaos to the region. They are patriotic Pakistanis at the same time. Nadeem Paracha writes honest views in Dawn. These are the people who bring respect to Pakistan.

Since you claim to be sitting in Germany, you might have access to their works. It is worth reading their books. They can help open your eyes.

Posted by KPSingh01 | Report as abusive
 

Rex

Remember one thing, Indians are severely allergic to Pakistan Army and ISI. Any lies regarding the 1971 war, any fabricated story about genocide etc needs to be examined.
You are free to read whatever you want to read, I am sure you will know who is who.

KPSingh:
“In 1971, Pakistan’s military was given the command to go in and kill the Bengalis and slaughter them so that they never dare rise again. This was done to punish Sheikh Mujibur Rehman who was legally a winner in the national elections with majority seats in Pakistan’s parliament.”

In 1971, Pakistan’s military was given the command to go in and kill the Bengalis and slaughter them so that they never dare rise again. This was done to punish Sheikh Mujibur Rehman who was legally a winner in the national elections with majority seats in Pakistan’s parliament.”

-Hats off to your fabricated lies, this is a lie and I would like to challenge you. The internal crisis started in 1970, Army certainly took action in East Pakistan and military generals messed up the situation. But there was no order to kill Bengalis or rape etc. On the contrary India created the Mukti Bahni insurgents and when Pakistan returned the favour a decade later in Kashmir you were complaining. This is your lie, and here is the problem. Pakistan Army to date has designated India as enemy no.1. The day when liars like you will stop lying, Pakistan Army will give a green light to go ahead with peace agreement with India. Until then bear with us.

Posted by Umairpk | Report as abusive
 

BTW KPSingh:

Do you notice how we are both interacting with Rex Minor, he has little knowledge of Pakistan. So you are telling him lies about 1971 Bangladesh genocide, withholding facts on Indian backed insurgents. While I told him my views, you asked him to read certain liberal Pakistani writers. In short we were previosuly making arguments and counter arguments one on one. When Rex joined the discussion, we dragged him into it also.
This is all that is wrong between India and Pakistan, a fu*cked up bilateral relationship and adversity in Afghanistan where both nations are competing for influence. Come on its crazy man!

Posted by Umairpk | Report as abusive
 

@Umair
“The day when liars like you will stop lying, Pakistan Army will give a green light to go ahead with peace agreement with India. Until then bear with us.”

So you are basically saying lets just forget the past and move on for a peaceful and prosperous future..is it?? If Yes, then for sake of peace we, Indians, are ready to forget all. Sign LOC into border and then resolve smaller issues first (I like this idea of yours) and then may be sometime later when we have trust between us then make borders (not just in Kashmir but all along) as completely irrelevant. If No, then clarify please.

“Come on its crazy man”

Yes it is indeed crazy that outsiders are so easily able to make us bicker with each other. For once I would agree with Rex that minds of people in this region need advancement through proper education. Education project is being going on in India and has picked somewhat pace in last 10 years or so and is reflected in recent law of RTE. Pakistan’s situation on education you can tell better. But tell me one thing, does school books in Pakistan (or some parts) teach their children that India is ‘haraam’ (unacceptable); I am asking because some media reports say so but since I am not the one who blindly believes idiot box, so want to confirm it from an educated Pakistani like you.

Awaiting your reply.

Posted by 777xxx777 | Report as abusive
 

http://www.genocidebangladesh.org

@”The day when liars like you will stop lying, Pakistan Army will give a green light to go ahead with peace agreement with India.”

Are the bangladeshis lying as well? The above is a link to their account of the genocide & not of the Indians. The reality is, that the day Pakistanis like you, remove the blindfold which has been covering your eyes since birth & see your military establishment for what it actually is, is the day there can be peace between India & Pakistan.

Posted by Mortal1 | Report as abusive
 

@Umair

Here’s an excerpt from Pakistan’s Hamood ur Rehman commission report, regarding the genocide in East Pakistan:

“The excesses committed by the Pakistani Army fall into the following categories:- a) Excessive use of force and fire power in Dacca during the night of the 25th and 26th of March 1971 when the military operation was launched. b) Senseless and wanton arson and killings in the countryside during the course of the “sweeping operations” following the military action. c) Killing of intellectuals and professionals like doctors, engineers, etc and burying them in mass graves not only during early phases of the military action but also during the critical days of the war in December 1971. d) Killing of Bengali Officers and men of the units of the East Bengal Regiment, East Pakistan Rifles and the East Pakistan Police Force in the process of disarming them, or on pretence of quelling their rebellion. e) Killing of East Pakistani civilian officers, businessmen and industrialists, or their mysterious disappearance from their homes by or at the instance of Army Officers performing Martial Law duties. f) Raping of a large number of East Pakistani women by the officers and men of the Pakistan army as a deliberate act of revenge, retaliation and torture. g) Deliberate killing of members of the Hindu minority.”

Posted by Mortal1 | Report as abusive
 

Umairpk: “Hats off to your fabricated lies, this is a lie and I would like to challenge you. The internal crisis started in 1970, Army certainly took action in East Pakistan and military generals messed up the situation. But there was no order to kill Bengalis or rape etc. On the contrary India created the Mukti Bahni insurgents and when Pakistan returned the favour a decade later in Kashmir you were complaining. This is your lie,”

I am not adept at fabricating lies like your army can do. I humbly accept that I am not match to the folks who run your military.

Rex minor is not an outside. He signs with the name “Pakistan.” And he is pretending to be unaware of issues in South Asia. This helps him slip out whenever he is cornered.

Arguments have to be based on available facts. If people pull things out of the air, one can question that. When we question, we see silence from your end or you divert the topic in a different direction to slide out of it. In our case we provide references either in the form of books that we have read or internet links. You conveniently choose not to read them or call them as fabricated lies. You are relying on what you heard on your street and come to argue with others.

Let me see if you can read this reference with sincerity:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1971_Bangla desh_atrocities

Here is a quote from this link about what Pakistani army had planned:

“Operation Searchlight was a planned military pacification carried out by the Pakistan Army to curb the Bengali nationalist movement in erstwhile East Pakistan in March 1971[21] Ordered by the government in West Pakistan, this was seen as the sequel to Operation Blitz which had been launched in November 1970.

The original plan envisioned taking control of the major cities on 26 March 1971, and then eliminating all opposition, political or military,[22] within one month. The prolonged Bengali resistance was not anticipated by Pakistani planners.[23] The main phase of Operation Searchlight ended with the fall of the last major town in Bengali hands in mid May.”

Read the words “eliminating all opposition, political or military, within one month.” This is only possible if the mission is carried out brutally.

Also read:

“During the war, the Pakistan Army and its local collaborators carried out a systematic execution of the leading Bengali intellectuals. A number of professors from Dhaka University were killed during the first few days of the war.[33][34] However, the most extreme cases of targeted killing of intellectuals took place during the last few days of the war. Professors, journalists, doctors, artists, engineers, writers were rounded up by Pakistan Army and the Razakar militia in Dhaka, blindfolded, taken to torture cells in Mirpur, Mohammadpur, Nakhalpara, Rajarbagh and other locations in different sections of the city to be executed en masse in the killing fields, most notably at Rayerbazar and Mirpur.[35][36][37][38] Allegedly, the Pakistani Army and its paramilitary arm, the Al-Badr and Al-Shams forces created a list of doctors, teachers, poets, and scholars.[39][40]”

Read the word “systematic”.

Where is Mukti Bahini here? It came later on. You guys whine about Afghan refugees flooding Pakistan and the poor Pakistan not getting enough international sympathy for it. India was utterly poor in those days and it had to deal with millions of Bengali refugees. No country came to help India. The US sent in its 7th fleet to attack India. To help itself from Afghan refugee crisis, Pakistan created the Taliban and let them loose into Afghanistan. To help itself from Bengali refugee crisis, India helped the Mukti Bahini to take on the Pak military. What is the difference here? Why is it all right for Pakistan to handle refugee crisis by launching a proxy offensive inside Afghanistan and not so for India? Do you see your double standard here?

India’s action in East Pakistan is just. If Pakistan had been in India’s shoes, it would have done the same thing and will not have stopped with that. At least be glad that India did not go further into West Pakistan. There are think tanks in India which are cursing Indira Gandhi for hesitating to make the move. If she was bold enough, she could have continued the war and choked Pakistan completely. Remember, Balochistan and Sindh independence movements started right after the 1971 war. Pak military had to crush them brutally. If Pakistan did not have the support of the Americans, India could have finished Pakistan off and today you might be a patriotic Punjabi citizen, fighting Rex Minor for his pro-Pashtun feelings.

From Indian stand point, Pakistani army has been an unceasing aggressor and we should have ended that menace in 1971. But for the Americans, you guys will not be in one piece today. And you will not be a nuclear menace to the world either. Thanks to Nixon and Kissinger, China has become a monster to Americans themselves and Pakistan has become a genie that they are struggling to put back into the bottle. Pakistan has become a menace to the region because of the Americans. But at least they are admitting their mistakes and are trying to correct them.

You might be a patriotic Pakistani Umair, but unfortunately truth stands against your military and your country. There is no use trying to defend lies at whatever cost.

Posted by KPSingh01 | Report as abusive
 

Mortal & 777

There is no doubt and its an open secret that President Yahya Khan was unfortunately a drunkard and he greatly messed up in East Pakistan. No doubt Sheikh Mujeeb’s Awami League won the election majority seats and he was supposed to be given a chance to form a majority government but Zulfiqar Bhutto’s adamant attitude sparked the political deadlock. The Army moved in to suppress the Bengalis arrest Mujjeb , fact is the Eastern and western wings of Pakistan had differences over Bengali language and culture. In short things got worse, no doubt the Mukti Bahni insurgents did their own campaign to terrorise, blow up radio stations and sabotage against East Pakistan (backed by India ofcourse). I have heard certain views of some our professional senior Army officers and they take all the blame. Deep down they know the fall of Dhaka, the Army action in East Pakistan and messing up there was Army’s fault. Politicians of Pakistan had a small role, still the rank and file of the Army and Air Force held well in 1971 war. It was the top Military leadership that failed.

I think the Bengali genocide story is simple rubbish, I viewed an old interview on Youtube clip of Indra Gandhi, her eyes shining and she is smiling while accusing of genocide and refugee problem. She knew India is nearing its goal to dismember Pakistan. Even if the genocide took place, I would blame it on India of instigating it. East Pakistan could never have fell without India imposing a full scale war. That was a tactical victory for India, but what did it give you, 39 years later West Pakistan is still here as a nuclear power, we still have the Kashmir dispute and not much has changed.
Now lets consider if India had not intervened in 1971 in East Pakistan, maybe the crisis must have been solved and things would have settled down. But I think it was good in a way what happened, Bengalis would have become a liability for us anyways. They went their way we went ours, today we have friendlier ties with them.

777
Just yesterday Pakistani FM Qureshi stated we need a final solution to Kashmir dispute, maybe recognize LOC and move on enough is enough. Regarding text books and education in Pakistan, there is no such thing as:

“school books in Pakistan (or some parts) teach their children that India is ‘haraam’ (unacceptable); ”

The thing is in Pakistan there is not one single education standard, you have private highly expensive school systems like Convent, Beaconhouse etc (O Levels, A-Levels) then Punjab text book board books are used in government schools and other institutions countrywide. I studied in Rawalpindi (Punjab text books) in an Army run school. Somehow the schools run by Army are one of best, with balanced education in the public sector. In short the text book get revised now and then and I dont think there is any specific hate material. The Air Force has its own school system, the Navy has its own, there are cadet colleges and ‘feeder schools’ some of these schools groom the kids from 8th grade onwards and after high school they go through rigorous selection procedure to join military academies and graduate to join the Armed forces as commissioned officers. All along there is an emphasis on academics and grooming. The lies you hear are just lies as I have already stated. Those who opt for other studies join the medical, engineering, managements studies etc. I am the product of same education system.
Even more postive trend is that organization like USAID is investing along with Pak govt. on primary level basic education, USEFP (US Edu Foundation) help in teacher training, cultural exchanges etc. Similar development programs by British council. However, still there is a lot to be done to improve curriculum, primary education increase, other reforms etc. The Army has started a campaign to rebuild many schools damaged in Northwest by Taliban.

Posted by Umairpk | Report as abusive
 

Also Umair, you are quick to blame India for East Pakistan but do you ever give it any credit for releasing 90,000 of your soldiers after they had surrendered? India could have held them as prisoners of war or even handed them over to the Mukti Bahini, who would’ve happily slaughtered your soldiers as retaliation for the genocide.

Posted by Mortal1 | Report as abusive
 
 

KPSinghIn Iraq US Army was responsible for detainee abuse and other horrific crimes (Abu Ghraib prison) and killing of unarmed Iraqi civilians by blackwater private security. In Afghanistan many incidents of collateral damage reckless killings took place. In Kashmir Indian Army is still killing and oppressing, In Swat Pakistan Army was accused of extrajudicial killings which are under investigation. Back then in East Pakistan certaininhumane acts of aggression might be commited by some army units but an independent account is hard to find and things are exaggerated.

Posted by Umairpk | Report as abusive
 

KPSinghIn Iraq US Army was responsible for detainee abuse and other horrific crimes (Abu Ghraib prison) and killing of unarmed Iraqi civilians by blackwater private security. In Afghanistan many incidents of collateral damage reckless killings took place. In Kashmir Indian Army is still killing and oppressing, In Swat Pakistan Army was accused of extrajudicial killings which are under investigation. Back then in East Pakistan certaininhumane acts of aggression might be commited by some army units but an independent account is hard to find and things are exaggerated.

Posted by Umairpk | Report as abusive
 

In war zones brutalities do take place that is why today tribunals like Hague exist. Currently Radovan Karadic is held for war crimes and is being prosecuted after his arrest. Gen. Radko Mladic is still at large, both these monsters are responsible for Srebrenica massacre in 1995 of Bosnian Muslims at the hands of serbs. Even the UN failed to provide security to refugees there.

Back in 1970s there was no such law or tribunal? Am I correct?
Moreover an independent account of events in needed to ascertain the facts, violence by Pakistan Army and violence by Indian backed Mukti Bahni insurgents. When you take up arms against a country’s military you come under fire.

Posted by Umairpk | Report as abusive
 

KPSingh:

A passage from the link you posted above:
“After the defeat of the Pakistani forces, Bangladeshi nationalist forces, including the Kaderia Bahini militia led by Abdul Kader Siddique, exacted revenge on those who were viewed as having been ‘collaborators’ of the Pakistani forces[citation needed]. In particular, Biharis, some of whom had actively assisted the Pakistani Army, were subjected to massive reprisal attacks”

-So the bengalis were not just oppressed by Pak Army, they took revenge and there were monsters among them too. Besides all Indian authors and their version of 1971 war will be biased obviously.

Posted by Umairpk | Report as abusive
 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mukti_Bahin i

Here is another view, the Mukti Bahni insurgents backed by India resorted to terror activities and sabotage against East Pakistan govt. In return operation searchlight was the Answer from Pakistan Army. Result, conflict, war, atrocities on both sides and orchestrator was India.
Again proved India was responsible for genocide in 1971 in East Pakistan.

Posted by Umairpk | Report as abusive
 

And frankly in March 1971 instead of taking military action in East Pakistan. Pakistan should have rather attacked India on both sides, West Pakistan and East, using full air power and force Naval bombardment. Sure it would have caused damage, with diplomacy and UN ceasefire the war could have ended and East Pakistan saved.

Instead East Pakistan kept slipping out of hands and finally lost in Dec due to regular attacks by Indian backed insurgents.

I think that is why the Army today employs a doctrine of offensive defense against India. We will not wait for you to attack us, rather a policy of offensive defense in other words preemptive strike. Also the idea of inflitrating insurgents in Kashmir is not new, something India too had done in the past.

Posted by Umairpk | Report as abusive
 

Umairpk: “I think the Bengali genocide story is simple rubbish”

You are joining Iran’s Ahmadinijad in claiming that Holocaust never happened. And there are some who claim that 9/11 attacks were staged by Jews.

I am sorry, but genocide of Bengalis by Pakistani army did happen and it is an unfortunate event in history. It did not happen because India created a Mukti Bahini and controlled it from outside. I know some Pakistanis who have twisted facts that far as well. No matter how much you might deny it, truth will be the same.

Using your logic, an average Indian, your Indian counterpart can simply deny that Indian army has never hurt a fly in Kashmir. That will be an insult to the truth as well.

By denying that Bengali genocide ever happened, you are insulting your fellow Muslim brethren at the same time. Something for you Ummah fellows to think about.

Posted by KPSingh01 | Report as abusive
 

Umairpk: “In war zones brutalities do take place that is why today tribunals like Hague exist. Currently Radovan Karadic is held for war crimes and is being prosecuted after his arrest. Gen. Radko Mladic is still at large, both these monsters are responsible for Srebrenica massacre in 1995 of Bosnian Muslims at the hands of serbs. Even the UN failed to provide security to refugees there.”

So you do agree that militaries across the world get brutal. My question is why raise such a campaign against Indian military in Kashmir alone when many other countries, including yours, have done far worse? What tribunal went through your army’s atrocities in East Pakistan? Who was punished? I’d be very interested in hearing about it.

“Back in 1970s there was no such law or tribunal? Am I correct?”

War crime tribunals have been part of the modern world. Nuremberg trials after WW II brought justice to Nazi criminals. No such tribunal was formed in 1971 because the United States prevented anything from happening at that time. It was busy cozying up with China through Pakistan’s mediation. Nixon called Indira Gandhi a “b*tch” for cutting up Pakistan into two. Nixon even considered nuking India. The US, due to cold war geo-politics, was a bad nation in those days. It condemned and protested Vietnam’s invasion of Kampuchea to defeat and drive off Pol Pot. The US objected to the installation of Heng Samarin’s regime in Kampuchea by Vietnam. BTW, do you know what Pol Pot is famous for? Go read about it and it will ring a bell. Both India and Vietnam were condemned for their actions to stop genocide by the US and its supporters, just because they were “on the other side of the wall.” Human rights etc did not matter. The US has the strongest international clout. Today it has tilted towards India. So now if Pakistan raises human rights issue in Kashmir, guess what the US will do? Nothing. Because it put up with a much bigger human rights violation by Pakistan when it suited its interests.

“Moreover an independent account of events in needed to ascertain the facts, violence by Pakistan Army and violence by Indian backed Mukti Bahni insurgents. When you take up arms against a country’s military you come under fire.”

So why point fingers at Indian military for its actions in Kashmir? Are refugees pouring out of Kashmir into Pakistan? Let us know.

Posted by KPSingh01 | Report as abusive
 

@”Iraq US Army was responsible for detainee abuse and other horrific crimes (Abu Ghraib prison) and killing of unarmed Iraqi civilians by blackwater private security. In Afghanistan many incidents of collateral damage reckless killings took place. In Kashmir Indian Army is still killing and oppressing” Posted by Umairpk

Same old, morally weak finger-pointing response from you “Everybody else does it, so it’s OK if we did it too”. Does the acts of others absolve your army of cunducting mass murders & rapes in east Pakistan?

@”but an independent account is hard to find and things are exaggerated.”

It’s hard for you to find because you DON’T want to find it. There are plenty of truly independant accounts of the atrocities commited by your army in east Pakistan.

@”Here is another view, the Mukti Bahni insurgents backed by India resorted to terror activities and sabotage against East Pakistan govt. In return operation searchlight was the Answer from Pakistan Army. Result, conflict, war, atrocities on both sides and orchestrator was India”

Of course there’s another view. That’s the view of your army & it has been spoon fed to gullable Pakistanis like you, begining with your primary school text books. However, it’s your army’s view on one side & the view of pretty much the rest of the world, on the other side. A criminal’s tendency is to deflect the blame of his crime on to others, so nothing new there.

Posted by Mortal1 | Report as abusive
 

Umairpk: “And frankly in March 1971 instead of taking military action in East Pakistan. Pakistan should have rather attacked India on both sides, West Pakistan and East, using full air power and force Naval bombardment. Sure it would have caused damage, with diplomacy and UN ceasefire the war could have ended and East Pakistan saved.”

In 1971, if Pakistan had attacked India from both ends, it would have splintered up much faster. As it was, Bengalis wanted to secede from this great nation for Muslims and Muslims only. They would have bitten off Pakistan’s rear end while it was busy attacking India.

In addition to the of surrender ceremony in Dhaka, Yahya Khan would have signed a similar surrender agreement in Lahore. India had learned in 1965 that it missed an opportunity to really put the Pak army in a bind. It was inexperience and miscalculation. If Pakistan attacked India, what other opportunity or justification was needed to go all out and wipe out all future potential issues? Pakistan did not have the fire power and resources to last beyond two to three weeks. It had its emissaries hurrying to China and the US to thwart India’s gains. China, your all weather friend, did nothing. The US stopped short of condemning Indian action because the Russians began to warm up.

India, in my opinion, should have continued on with its mission after cutting of East Pakistan. It had all of Kashmir within its grasp. Further push into West Pakistan for a month more, would have allowed Balochistan and Sindh to splinter up as well. By now Islamic unity would have been proved as a myth well beyond doubt. Probably a reduced Pakistan will be fighting four wars with neighboring Islamic nations. That would have done a lot of good to this region – there would have been no nukes. Soviet invasion of Afghanistan might not have happened. All these Madrasas, Mujahideen, Mullahs, LeT etc would not have materialized. 9/11 would not have happened. A lot of good would have happened to the world, if India had done the right thing in 1971. We let you off the hook. Thank us for that.

Now you are a nuclear power and be rest assured that the equations have changed. No one will dare go into Pakistan. All this happened because India let your military off the hook. Your military has tried to avenge all this shame. They know very well that India could have crushed them in 1971. They have tried everything since 1989, with all the nuclear empowerment. Unfortunately your country is fighting for its survival again and India has become even stronger. Since your nation is nuclear armed, we will allow brothers of the Ummah to slaughter each other and splinter up. Your military is going to be very busy trying to keep the brothers from fighting each other. It is all coming soon.

Posted by KPSingh01 | Report as abusive
 

KPSingh

The nuclear thing was also started by India, everything was going good until 1998 and suddenly BANG!!! India explodes nuclear devices in Pokhran. Knowing we can only sustain two weeks in a war, Pakistan was also compelled to demonstrate its nuclear power. Again who is responsible for nuclearization of South Asia? India wanted to project power, Pakistan wanted to express that it is capable of fight back. The lesson for you is to learn that never underestimate Pakistan, but still you are under the illusion that Pakistan can be further divided and its nuclear power can be neutralized? Tells me the real reason why you guys are allergic to Pakistan Army and ISI. Get some anti-allergic vaccine.

Posted by Umairpk | Report as abusive
 

Umair said:

> Even if the genocide took place, I would blame it on India of instigating it.

Further argument is pointless!

Regards,
Ganesh Prasad

Posted by prasadgc | Report as abusive
 

Umairpk:”Even if the genocide took place,”

Like it or not, it did. No matter how much you might close your eyes, the genocide happened and your “brave” soldiers were involved in it.

“I would blame it on India of instigating it.”

That’s what you guys have been doing all the time. This is not new. Look at how that liar Musharraf is spinning stories in the link that you provided. He paints the picture of Pakistan as the innocent, helpless and peace loving nation that has been drawn into conflicts by everyone and Pakistan became what it did because of them. This kind of claim might be soothing to the guilty hearts in Pakistan, but the outside world isn’t buying any such excuses. India got involved in East Pakistan affairs much later, when millions of refugees began to pour in and the situation became difficult to handle.

“East Pakistan could never have fell without India imposing a full scale war.”

India did not declare war on Pakistan. It helped the refugees and the Mukti Bahini. They became your equivalent of JKLF. If you are justified in supporting Khalistan and Kashmir secessions inside India, then you have no right to condemn India for the same reason. You cannot have one rule for you and another for the others. You do not make such rules. India has never declared war on Pakistan during its entire history. Pakistan has always been the aggressor from 1948 all the way to Kargil and Mumbai attacks. The reason why India decided to capitalize on East Pakistan crisis was because Pakistan had launched offensives against India in 1948, and 1965 already.

“That was a tactical victory for India, but what did it give you, 39 years later West Pakistan is still here as a nuclear power, we still have the Kashmir dispute and not much has changed.”

We could have dismembered you further. Pakistan had no defense against India in 1971. It was at the receiving end mostly. The only thing Pakistan had better than India was and has been are arrogance and superiority complex. You are cursing the US today. Yet it was because of the US you are still in one piece and a nuclear power. In hindsight, I’d say India missed a tactical opportunity permanently put to rest a lingering problem in South Asia. It is not the case of Muslims versus non-Muslims. Pakistan as a nation has become an irritant to everyone around. Afghans do not trust you either.

But you people never seem to learn from the past. That is because your history has been rewritten with lies repeatedly. If your country cannot help resolve the Afghanistan issue soon, for all you know, your country might do a great service to the world by spinning into civil war by itself. No external help may be necessary. The same US that saved Pakistan from falling apart in 1971 might facilitate its break up if it sees that as a way to bring peace to the region and the world.

Posted by KPSingh01 | Report as abusive
 

May be Myra should post an article about East Pakistan. She loves to publish articles on Kashmir once in a while. Since Pakistanis like the “neutrality” of Myra, may be her words might give them more insight. Are you game for it Myra?

Posted by KPSingh01 | Report as abusive
 

Umairpk: “The nuclear thing was also started by India, everything was going good until 1998 and suddenly BANG!!! India explodes nuclear devices in Pokhran.”

You keep giving me opportunities to expose your country’s duplicity again and again. You don’t want to. Because if I provide you with more facts, you might seek asylum in Iran or some place else.

For a long time India and Israel to some extent have been trying to expose Pakistan’s clandestine nuclear bomb development. By 1984, Pakistan had all the material and technology to assemble nuclear bombs. Unfortunately the US badly needed Pakistan as an ally to fight the USSR in Afghanistan. This meant, the President of the US had to lie openly to his Congress that Pakistan had no nuclear capability. Lie he did. In the book, “Nuclear Deception,” there is a very interesting piece on how India decided to expose it.

India suddenly held a war exercise named Operation Brass Tacks. Pakistan took the bait and launched Zarb e Momin. India’s famous journalist Kuldip Nayyar made a trip to Islamabad and held an interview with Pakistan’s God AQ Khan. In that he threw in more bait to excite the Khan into declaring openly that Pakistan had the f*king bomb and will drop it on India even for a war exercise. That was a complete egg on the face for the Americans who had done everything they could to hide Pakistan’s clandestine operations spanning from Europe, US, Canada, Libya, Nigeria, South Africa, Dubai, China and Malaysia.

In 1998, the same thing happened. There was a question on how credible is Pakistan’s claim on its nuclear prowess and how good is the yield of its bombs. The only way to excite Pakistan was to invite it to a match and Pakistan took the bait again. Economic sanctions were imposed on both countries. For India it was like a fly swat on a rhino’s rear end. Pakistan fell to the brink.

We know you guys are very emotional and all one needs to expose your foolishness is to do something like the above. Your country has never failed to take the bait.

RAW had slipped in SIM cards into Pakistan and guess where they appeared? In the cell phones of the Mumbai attackers. The whole world could hear the communications between the terrorists and their ISI masters from inside Pakistan.

“Knowing we can only sustain two weeks in a war, Pakistan was also compelled to demonstrate its nuclear power.”

Good. Now your country needs to worry about sustaining itself for two weeks continuously. There is no money other than what is being donated. While others are donating, your brothers are detonating. You can keep your nukes. But your brothers are salivating over them now. If I were you, I’ll be more worried about them than India.

“Again who is responsible for nuclearization of South Asia?”

China.

“India wanted to project power, Pakistan wanted to express that it is capable of fight back.”

We wanted to show China that 1962 cannot be repeated. And Chinese are smart. They are not chest thumping with India anymore. They want to do more business with us. They know our missiles can carry nukes to Beijing and Shanghai. So they gave your country the bomb making blue print and enough material to make a 25kT bomb. I hear instructions on your Ghauri and other missiles are still written in Korean language.

“The lesson for you is to learn that never underestimate Pakistan,”

Those who under-estimate an enemy will suffer the worst.
We had never underestimated Pakistan. Criminals are not looked at with regard and admiration. They are looked at with suspicion.

“but still you are under the illusion that Pakistan can be further divided and its nuclear power can be neutralized?”

One never knows. If Pakistan continues to be an Islamic paradise that churns out cadets that go and blow up things in other countries, at some point you will face the barrel of the gun. And your nukes might be one of the reasons why they might point their barrels at your face.

“Tells me the real reason why you guys are allergic to Pakistan Army and ISI. Get some anti-allergic vaccine.”

Pakistan’s army and the ISI today are rogue organizations that deal with criminal elements to control the region, derail governments and sustain global Islamic terrorism. They are the real villains. For a long time, the world powers turned a blind eye to that reality. Now they are beginning to experience the truth themselves. Let North Waziristan invasion happen. Then will come the ants from the underground. Isn’t that why the shaking Pakistani military is doing its very best not to go in there? It is going to happen.

Dismantling the army and the ISI and restructuring it will do a lot of good to the people in the Af-Pak region. They control everyone including you. You need to be helped out so that all of us can live in peace. That will not happen until the Pak army is decimated and rebuilt from scratch. No one is going to do that from outside. It will happen from within.

Posted by KPSingh01 | Report as abusive
 

babag

I do not know what’s mentioned there in the article at Rupeenews, but as a rule, I stopped wasting my time on this site. It is an established propaganda site by Pakistani standards. The problem with such sites is that they have ruined their reputation to a point where even if there is something credible, one cannot trust it. Any other site?

Thanks

Posted by rehmat | Report as abusive
 

@Umair

We should never assume what is false as true, and to arrive at a knowledge which takes in all things. For, if we are without the knowledge of any of the things which we are capable of understanding , that is only because we have never perceived any way to bring us to this knowledge , or because we have fallen into the contrary error. But if our method rightly explains how our mental vision should be used, so as not to fall into the contrary error, and how deduction should be discovered in order that we may arrive at the knowledge of all things, I do not see what else is needed to make it complete; for I have already said that no science is required except by mental intuition or deduction. The thoughts of Descartes, the 17th century French philosopher, who eveloped a system and rules for the direction of mind.

The Rule 2 states that only those objects should engage our attention , to the sure and indubitable knowledge of which our mental power seem to be adequate!

My own analysis starts from certain basics. For example, how can a reporter go into the psyche of the people and understand the feeling and the expression of the people, if he does not speak or understand their language and their culture. He could only report on the events and occurances, but not what the guys are saying even though he has a translator with him.

I have no problem with so called liberals who write on popular subjets and make bucks, but if they do not speak or understand the language and culture of the people, I have no use of the info. For example the Pashtoons would regard other pashtoons not speaking the same dilect foreigners. I know this is macabre but the reality. More next.

Rex Minor

Posted by pakistan | Report as abusive
 

Rehmat:This is what written in by Sarmila Bose in Rupeenews:”the conflicts played out on the soil of East Pakistan in 1971 were more numerous and ran deeper. The civil war was not merely between the two wings of Pakistan, but also within the territory of East Pakistan, between Bengalis and non-Bengalis, and among Bengalis themselves, who were bitterly divided between those who favoured independence for Bangladesh and those who supported the unity and integrity of Pakistan. The middle ground of federation and autonomy was increasingly squeezed between these two highly polarised positions, especially through the general elections of December 1970.”

“While 1971 evokes strong emotion in both parts of the severed wings of Pakistan, there has been little systematic study of the violent conflicts during the nine-month long civil war.3 Popular attention has focused on the Pakistani armed force’s action against the Bengalis, or the India-Pakistan war. However, East Pakistan in 1971 was simultaneously a battleground for many different kinds of violent conflict – militant rebellion, mob violence, military crackdown on a civilian population, mutiny within the armed forces, urban terrorism, guerrilla warfare, conventional battles, death squads, civil war within Pakistan and between Bengalis, and full-scale war between Pakistan and India.”

-And Reuters is no propaganda site, rather Indians here are out to bring a bad name to Pakistan. If you quit the discussion we loose the views of an Indian Muslim on this forum. Choice is yours to make, but i guess you must go through the Rupee news article posted by babag.

Posted by Umairpk | Report as abusive
 

“The case studies show that brutalities were committed by all parties in the conflict and no party is in a position to occupy the moral high ground on this question without first acknowledging and expressing remorse for the inhumanities committed by its own side. Both sides must be held equally accountable in terms of the nature of the crime. Equally, acts of humanity in the midst of a bitter conflict are found on all sides, with Bengalis, Biharis and West Pakistanis helping one another in the midst of mayhem. Indeed, it is this reality that makes the conflict in East Pakistan in 1971 suitable to a “reconciliatory” approach, rather than a recriminatory one.”

From the Rupee article.

But ppl like KPSingh are the real problem. How shameful can you be to accuse Pakistan Army of genocide and claim the moral high ground when Indian Army with Bengali terrorists carried out the genocide of Biharis instead?

Posted by Umairpk | Report as abusive
 

Thanks babag, ur awesome. I uncovered the truth regarding the Bengali genocide story. These Banglas look so innocent, these monsters trained as terrorists in India came back and killed scores of Biharis. Smaeful Indians claim the moral high ground by accusing West Pakistan military for genocide. Give me a break!

Thanks again and sorry for my lack of knowledge, I was born during the Soviet Afghan war era and have very little knowledge of the 71 event.

Posted by Umairpk | Report as abusive
 

Another slap on the face of shameful Indians, Sarmila Bose is the Grandchild of Netaji Subash Chandra Bose.

Will you please listen to her instead of making fabricated stories?

Posted by Umairpk | Report as abusive
 

Umairpk: “These Banglas look so innocent, these monsters trained as terrorists in India came back and killed scores of Biharis. Smaeful Indians claim the moral high ground by accusing West Pakistan military for genocide. ”

No one is claiming a higher moral ground here. You are pot. And we are kettle. Stop calling us black. That’s all. I can replace the names in the above with Kashmiri Muslims trained by Pakistani army, Kashmiri Hindus and Buddhists, militants comprising of Arabs, Chechens, Pashtuns, Punjabis, Pak army regulars striking at people and the Indian military – the death toll in Kashmir over 20 years stands at around 70000. You guys have tried to dump it all on the Indian military and have tried to gain mileage out of it.

But Pakistan military’s genocide is well accepted in world historic annals. Others might have killed each other. But that pales in comparison to what Pak army did in East Pakistan. You can never wipe that blood off your memory.

Posted by KPSingh01 | Report as abusive
 

Umairpk: “How shameful can you be to accuse Pakistan Army of genocide and claim the moral high ground when Indian Army with Bengali terrorists carried out the genocide of Biharis instead?”

Oh now they are terrorists huh? Not freedom fighters? No? And those who fight the Indian military in Kashmir? What are they? Why would Bengalis become terrorists and terrorists launched by Pakistan become freedom fighters? Why the double standard? Will you call those who fight in Kashmir as terrorists?

Posted by KPSingh01 | Report as abusive
 

Umairpk: “Reuters is no propaganda site, rather Indians here are out to bring a bad name to Pakistan.”

So long as they sing Pakistan’s tunes, they are not propaganda site. As soon as they start questioning things in Pakistan, they become biased and hate Pakistan. We know the drill. Indians are not out here to bring a bad name to Pakistan. Your country has worked hard to earn a bad name by itself. Your self help in this regard is amazing.

Posted by KPSingh01 | Report as abusive
 

rehmat, “I do not know what’s mentioned there in the article at Rupeenews, but as a rule, I stopped wasting my time on this site. It is an established propaganda site by Pakistani standards. The problem with such sites is that they have ruined their reputation to a point where even if there is something credible, one cannot trust it. Any other site?”
I understand that, but Sarmila Bose is not”Rupeenews”.
The Rupeenews merely published part of her research.
“Sarmila Bose, Assistant Editor for the Indian daily, Ananda Bazar Patrika and Visiting Scholar, at the Elliott School of International Affairs,….”

Umairpk. You are welcome.

Posted by babag | Report as abusive
 

Just because Sarmila Bose is Indian, does not make her credible. She’s not Arundhati Roy or even Asma Jahangir, who are well reputed. Her writings on the subject (East Pakistan) are not only refuted by Bangladesh but also by the UN & various other human right organizations like Amnesty International. Why accept the accounts of some lesser known writer with suspect reputation when Bangladeshis themselves have official records of the genocide, which have been substantiated by various international organizations. Just because you guys found an article written by a barely known writer, which is in conformity with the lies that you want to believe, it won’t change the truth. The world knows it & the Bangladeshis certainly do.

Posted by Mortal1 | Report as abusive
 

The following article might excite the likes of Umair. It is about Karachi burning. In that, there is a line that talks about the might of the Pakistani army which killed “several thousand” people. Go have a look at it yourself.

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/11/19/world/ asia/19karachi.html?_r=1&hp

Quote: In 1992, the army moved into Karachi to suppress it, accusing it of a four-year rampage of torture and murder. During what amounted to a two-year occupation by the army, “several thousand” people were killed, according to accounts at the time. : Unquote

And these guys are pointing their fingers at other militaries. Jinnah founded Pakistan. Pakistani military will liquidate it. In both cases Muslim citizens are the victims.

Posted by KPSingh01 | Report as abusive
 

It’s always easy to point fingers at others, when confronted with your own sins & misdeeds. When Pakistanis talk about the “80,000 mass graves in Kashmir”, Indians can turn around & point at the 3 million murdered in Bangladesh by the PA (official figures) & say “talk to us when the Indian army reaches at least a million” BUT that would be an absolutely immoral & inhuman thing to do. At the end of the day, we’re all human beings & we should not shy away from injustices on our fellow humans, irrespective of religion, race or nationality. Atrocities should be stopped, no matter where they happen, Kashmir, Gaza, Balochistan or Darfur.

Posted by Mortal1 | Report as abusive
 

I’ve tried to read the text and search for hidden meanings, but nothing that Sarmila Bose has written negates the reports of the genocide by the Pakistani army. OK, so there were other militant groups who were also fighting at the time, and the situation was not as clear-cut as one may think. Interesting to see it being interpreted as an exoneration of the Pakistani army. It’s clearly not that.

Let’s face facts and move on from there, shall we? Denial of history gets us nowhere.

Also, you notice Indians do not deny army heavy-handedness in Kashmir and the possibility of human rights violations. Indians want accountability of their armed forces personnel in Kashmir. If we can have that attitude mirrored by the other participants, that would be a great leap forward in the debate, I think.

Regards,
Ganesh Prasad

Posted by prasadgc | Report as abusive
 

Here is another truth that was kept under the wrap by the Pak military. It has finally admitted that Pak army regulars were involved in Kargil war, after denying it all these years. I wonder what changed their minds.

http://news.outlookindia.com/item.aspx?7 01616

Posted by KPSingh01 | Report as abusive
 

Guys,

Come on we need to cut ice here. Theory of relativity clearly specifies that history cannot be modified (and leave metaphysics to Rex). So why go on bicker about past. We all made mistakes. But if Pakistan is ready to move on then Indians should be fine. Sign LOC into border and resolve other minor issues first. Go step by step. Why start bickering again. Stop accusing each other for no one has a clean history. But we can definitely shape a clean future.

Hope the message of peace gets accross. And lets for now discuss other issues between India and Pakistan. I would like to start with water sharing issues. Any one has any other issues (of course Kashmir will be discussed last when we have credible trust between us, as per Umair) to be discussed first?

Posted by 777xxx777 | Report as abusive
 

since Pakistan Army calls the shots in Pakistan on Defense & foreign policy and Indians tend to be severely allergic to the Pakistan army. I am wondering how is it possible to create the goodwill?

As for Sarmila Bose, she is not a nobody, she is the niece of Netaji Subash Chandra Bose and no ordinary Indian. I woulg give her a lot more credibility.

Posted by Umairpk | Report as abusive
 

Umair

One does not even need Rex’s “mental intuition” to see that the major player (let me call that way taking your views into consideration) in B’desh was Pakistan Army. What cannot be arrived at is the # killed. Highest end is 3million, I can agree that # seems rubbish based on my “mental intuition” (borrowing Rex’s expression). Let us put it at 10times lower # which has also been cited by a Western historian.

After giving hell to Indians and Indian Army and Muktibahini, you should not stop yourself from making a clear cut statement that PA was the major player. There is so much information out there about B’desh that it just does not make sense to hang by weak threads of isolated articles, be that by daughter of SC Bose. Sarmila Bose cannot wipe PA’s atrocities nor did she try. She just says that the situation was complicated and there were several things happening at that time. But that DOES NOT amount to why PA should not viewed as the major player.

Why would Pakistan media apologize for B’desh? What made Pakistani judiciary write that report? Have you never seen credible Pakistani reporter saying that PA was responsible for senseless killings?

“As for Sarmila Bose, she is not a nobody, she is the niece of Netaji Subash Chandra Bose and no ordinary Indian. I woulg give her a lot more credibility.”
***I cannot write her off like a propagandist, but your interpretation that she should be given credit since she is the daughter of SC Bose is wrong. You cannot give anyone credit (or discredit) for one’s parents.

I can see you are patriotic, and so is everyone else, but just make sure you take a stand that does not sound inhuman. Call a spade a spade.

“since Pakistan Army calls the shots in Pakistan on Defense & foreign policy and Indians tend to be severely allergic to the Pakistan army. I am wondering how is it possible to create the goodwill?”
***The problem here is the difference between the stand of Indian and Pakistani posters. What is preventing that?

What we need to do as Mortal said:
“At the end of the day, we’re all human beings & we should not shy away from injustices on our fellow humans, irrespective of religion, race or nationality. Atrocities should be stopped, no matter where they happen, Kashmir, Gaza, Balochistan or Darfur.”

I have not seen Indians playing this game that IA did not kill Kashmiris. In my view in general the stand of Indian posters about kashmir is that IA went in Kashmir to take on Pakistan-based militants. Majority believe that IA’s actions led to deaths of kashmiris. The situation is complicated in Kashmir as well with militants using IA uniforms as well forcing Kashmiri youth into militancy. It is all there in reports. Latter could be reasons as well but minor ones and part of the overall game by gun-totting guys and those who control them. HOWEVER, the ultimate blame on killing falls on IA.

You do the same for PA in B’desh. Anything less than that is unreasonable as a good human.
Thanks

Posted by rehmat | Report as abusive
 

@”since Pakistan Army calls the shots in Pakistan on Defense & foreign policy and Indians tend to be severely allergic to the Pakistan army.” Posted by Umairpk

You’re damn right, Indians are allergic to the Pakistani army. Wouldn’t you be, to an entity which has targeted your innocent civilians, through “non-state actors” for over 2 dacades? The Pakistani army has been for the Indians, pretty much what the TTP is for Pakistanis, these days (only much bigger, over a much longer period & plus the non-state actor facade). So, are you Pakistanis allergic to the TTP?
The unfortunate part is, Pakistanis should be even more allergic to the PA, given the fact that it has caused a lot more damage to Pakistan, than anyone else but that does not seem to be the case.

@”As for Sarmila Bose, she is not a nobody, she is the niece of Netaji Subash Chandra Bose and no ordinary Indian. I woulg give her a lot more credibility”

A person does not become credible by being related to someone with credibility. It’s an indiviual thing & nothing in Ms. Bose’s repertoire suggests that she has much of a credibility, at least not on the issue of 1971 & creation of Bangladesh.

Posted by Mortal1 | Report as abusive
 

Umairpk: “I am wondering how is it possible to create the goodwill?”

That’s very good. I have regards for such words. First thing I would suggest is to understand the overall situation from all angles and points of view. Do not confine it to Pak military’s view points alone. Mutual respect is a starting point. You have not done any of the atrocities that are being discussed here. Therefore you have no need to justify any of it. Someone else did it and there is no need to defend it all costs. Goodwill has to be from the heart. People on the other side of the fence are not green eyed monsters. Their accomplishments did not come without them being normal and hard working people.

I have tried to instill the fact that in 1989, Pakistan did have a choice. It had every favor on its side. The US would have showered Pakistan with money at that time out of sheer gratitude for helping defeat the USSR. But Pakistan’s Aslam Beg, President Ghulam Ishaq Khan and Hamid Gul decided to use their dicks and made a decision to launch a thousand year Jihad in Kashmir. Pakistan had the nukes. Their safety was guaranteed. They knew India will dare not attack Pakistan ever again. But they started illegal nuclear technology sales to many rogue nations. There was a choice in 1989. If Pakistan had chosen wisely and sought economic progress as its goal for the next ten years a lot would have happened -

1. Al Qaeda would not have moved into Afghanistan. Al Qaeda moved in there with Pak military’s blessings.

2. Taliban would not have formed. The Afghan war lords would have bombed each other out and simply settled for peace after blowing all their buttocks off. Non-interference from Pakistan would have helped them settle down on their own brutal terms. But Pak military wanted a strategic depth despite having nuke technology.

3. 9/11 would not have happened. If Pakistan had helped nab these militant leaders, the US would have been the most grateful country.

4. By now Pakistan would have had manufacturing industries, agricultural green revolution, energy industry, semi-conductor fabs, software industry spread all across the land.

5. All Jihad, Madrasas, Mullahs would have died down because of economic progress.

6. Money would have poured. The US would have showered Pakistan with money in those days. It was a booming economy during the Clinton era.

7. Economic clout would have forced India to come to negotiations for business opportunities and Kashmir settlement would have been a necessary action item in the list. Money talks more than weapons. As an important and productive nation, Pakistan could have had strong democracy by now.

8. There would have been no TTP, suicide blasts and sectarian violence.

Imagine what all could have happened if the asses that were in power in 1989 made the right decision.

Is it too late to start from a clean slate? Yes and no. There is always a possibility of someone coming in and inspiring people to do the right thing. But in a conflict zone, it becomes hard to bring about changes. People will first begin to jump out of the sinking ship. If you are changing your perspective, you will find that Indians are the best people you can deal with. We do not hate Pakistan. We just want you to do the right thing. Denials and counter arguments will lead to nowhere.

Posted by KPSingh01 | Report as abusive
 

rehmat, here is another one for you.
http://www.telegraphindia.com/1060319/as p/look/story_5969733.asp

I bet Pakistan would have nuked India, if they had the weapons at that time.

Posted by babag | Report as abusive
 

Babag

Thanks for the article by Sarmila Bose again.
That is her analysis of the situation and her opinion which she is entitled to.

I would agree that the situation was complex. I would trust her blindly, like you are doing, only if she was a fly on the wall during 1971. if there are 10more authors like her, I would begin to change my mind. This is not enough for me. Until that happens, spare a moment for the dead ones, rather than saying:

“I bet Pakistan would have nuked India, if they had the weapons at that time.”

***Let us assume Pakistani generals are as mad as you are, then this reflects their potential to commit genocide.

Have you ever wondered how desperate would be a population to break away since it took just one year to create Bangladesh?

Posted by rehmat | Report as abusive
 

The way some of you mob simply reflects your eductional background which to be honest needs definite reforms. And the evidence you provide in support of the accusations,are nothing but the newspapers sketchy reports of individuals and publications. The regular approach therefore should be to pressure the UN for investigations since India now has a seat in the security council. Let the UNO investigate the PA behaviour in Bangla Desh and IA behviour in Punjab against Sikhs, and the ongoing operations against the Kashmiris.
Let the unbiased UNO provide the decision.
In the mean time let us stop pronouncing fatwas or judgements on hearsay stories. My own opinion, Gentlemen, you have a very weak case in a court of law.

Next case please.

Rex Minor

Posted by pakistan | Report as abusive
 

Have you guys ever thought that there were two gentlemen from a village in India who one day decided to use their genius in developing a destractive piece of equipent for destroying the Indian sub-continent? The colonialist were not able to come out with such a deadly force.
Enjoy yourself, this was the local effort.

Rex Minor

Posted by pakistan | Report as abusive
 

Rehma:”Have you ever wondered how desperate would be a population to break away since
it took just one year to create Bangladesh?”

-Rehmat, East Pakistan fell within a span of a year due to the terrorist training conducting by Indian Army of the Mukti Bahni insurgents and finally a full scale war broke out during that time. India actively worked against East Pakistan government and contributed to the creation of Bangladesh.
Today, the reason why Pakistan is complaining about India’s involvement in Baluchistan is because Pakistan has zero tolerance for such a thing again. There are vaguely defined thresholds in place by the SPD-Strategic Plans Division the authority which oversees command and control of Pakistan’s nuclear weapons. Under those thresholds, any threat of loosing further territory to Indian aggression would result in nuclear confrontation.

Mortal:”Pakistanis should be even more allergic to the PA, given the fact that it has caused a lot more damage to Pakistan, than anyone else but that does not seem to be the case.”

-No, Pakistan Army is the life blood of Pakistan much like a life line. The only order amidst all the chaos, without which there would have been no nuclear status, the country would have been sold out totally by feuding politicians. It is the only merit based, efficient and professional state institution. Without it Pakistan could implode, and much to your disappointment the Army enjoys overwhelming public support in Pakistan. I am sure it is unusual for an Army to have a country rather than a country who has an Army. But this was bound to happen specially after 1971 debacle, Pakistan never had a chance to develop as a normal democratic nation.

Rehmat:
“Let us assume Pakistani generals are as mad as you are, then this reflects their potential to commit genocide. ”

-I have a question, if a country’s very existence is threatened (existential threat) don’t you think operating under survival mode irrational steps could be taken even inadvertantly? That’s why I say, we have had enough don’t push us any further. Just settle Kashmir and lets move on. Let bygones be bygones. And its not just Kashmir, look at Palestine? the images of ‘operation cast lead’ white phosphrus bombs dropped on UN refugee schools killing children. Does it get any more barbaric? and during that time in Dec 2009 all the US secretary of state could come up with was a statement to Israel to act in restraint. Is this justice? In the muslim world this is what radicalize people and push them towards extrimism.
There should be an emphasis on conflict resolution, for events like the Bangladesh liberation war, there should be tribunals set up in the Hague if need be and after ascertained facts further steps to reconciliation should be taken. Wipe out terrorism and the its causes, if a diseases is treated, steps should be taken to prevent its symptoms of appearing again.

Posted by Umairpk | Report as abusive
 

@KPSingh
Can we help you at all to calm down and suppress your urge for making populist statements now and again repeating sometime the USA state department views of the world.

May we remind you that the Reuters Blog do neither have the slaves nor the Fridays of the American masters. No sir, we are from the free world, you dare not consider us the properties of the yanks and showering us with impolite definitions.

You seem to forget the reality that the old owners of this property have left. Americans need help right now; or are you not aware that George W has left the office and now peddling his memoirs?

“They started illegal nuclear technology sales to rogue states”.

May we know who was or is entitled to legally sell the nuclear technology? And Who has the right to call other states as the rogue states? The one who is rude and does not have decent manners or is there any world body of wise and humane leaders who are allocating such titles? I know that there is a collection of some sick and self proclaimed wise politicians in Nobel Prize Committee, who have been lately granting Nobel Prize for Peace, to war mongers as well as war heroes.
The committee is deliberating and probably nnounce their desolution soon.

Rex Minor

Posted by pakistan | Report as abusive
 

KPSingh:” If Pakistan had chosen wisely and sought economic progress as its goal for the next ten years a lot would have happened -

“1. Al Qaeda would not have moved into Afghanistan. Al Qaeda moved in there with Pak military’s blessings.”

-No sir, Al-Qaeda are former CIA allies and freedom fighters blessed by Jimmy Carter, Ronald Reagen and Charlie Wilson. Al-Qaeda moved in much earlier and without Pakistan’s blessing.

“2. Taliban would not have formed. The Afghan war lords would have bombed each other out and simply settled for peace after blowing all their buttocks off. Non-interference from Pakistan would have helped them settle down on their own brutal terms. But Pak military wanted a strategic depth despite having nuke technology”

-No again, Taliban were born out of the chaos that enguled Afghanistan after Soviet withdrawal in 1989. US lost interest and abondoned the region, the vaccum was filled by Taliban, they were the ground reality in Kabul and Pakistan had to deal with them.

“3. 9/11 would not have happened. If Pakistan had helped nab these militant leaders, the US would have been the most grateful country”

-None of 9-11 hijacker was Pakistani, it was a big plot and Taliban had nothing to do with it. Taliban cant fly airplanes into skyscrappers, it was some thing bigger and sinister. We dont need a grateful US, we need a partner and ally in the US. No lip service. Just actions.

“4. By now Pakistan would have had manufacturing industries, agricultural green revolution, energy industry, semi-conductor fabs, software industry spread all across the land.”

-Bring it on! I would add Pakistan would have become the land with milk and honey like INDIA where farmers would not commit suicides.

“5. All Jihad, Madrasas, Mullahs would have died down because of economic progress.”

-Being a non-Muslim you are not capable to comprehend the meaning of the word ‘Jihad’ which means to struggle (could be against poverty, hunger, disease etc)Madrasas are a great institutions spare a few radical ones, rest of them are doing a good job. Don’t issue statements on things you are ignorant of.

“6. Money would have poured. The US would have showered Pakistan with money in those days. It was a booming economy during the Clinton era.”

-You and your silly theories. Thumbs up.

“7. Economic clout would have forced India to come to negotiations for business opportunities and Kashmir settlement would have been a necessary action item in the list. Money talks more than weapons. As an important and productive nation, Pakistan could have had strong democracy by now.”

-We can never sell Kashmir and make deals when thousands of our muslim bretheren are suffering in Kashmir. More than strong democracy, a true democracy is valueable.

“8. There would have been no TTP, suicide blasts and sectarian violence.”

-TTP was the aftermath of US invasion of Afghanistan in 2001, TTP was formed in 2004-5, its backbone is broken by now. Sectarian tensions exist since decades, Shias and Sunnis get along one way or the other. Suicide blasts is a complex phenomenon, result of the geo-strategic dynamics of Afghan conflict.

“But they started illegal nuclear technology sales to many rogue nations.”

-Before that in the 80s US tolerated Pakistan’s nuclear program. Which one is the bigger mistake? Pakistan’s proliferation, its quest to acquire nuclear technology after Indian 1974 tests? or US tolerance of Pakistan’s development of nuclear technology? Set the record straight, the acquisition of nuclear tech was also illegal. Infact nuclearization of South Asia by India back in 1974 was the biggest crime of all, resulting in Pakistan’s quest to purchase nuclear material from the blackmarket and afterwards proliferation by few individuals in unofficial capacity.

See drop your hatred, I can rebuttal you for evey accusation. It helps no one.

” If you are changing your perspective, you will find that Indians are the best people you can deal with. We do not hate Pakistan. We just want you to do the right thing. Denials and counter arguments will lead to nowhere.”

-Being a free citizen of a soverign nation, you have no right and I am under no obligation “to do the right thing” which obviously you think is the right thing to do. We will do what WE think is right for us to do and during the course if Indians become the worst people to deal with, than so be it.

“Denials and counter arguments will lead to nowhere.”

-AGREED. Lets try to move on and wish peace between India and Pakistan which are two neighbours. Look we can call each other enemies, but we are neighbours as well. No one can change that reality. Lets hope one day we become FRIENDLY neighbours.

Posted by Umairpk | Report as abusive
 

Umair

“Today, the reason why Pakistan is complaining about India’s involvement in Baluchistan is because Pakistan has zero tolerance for such a thing again. There are vaguely defined thresholds in place by the SPD-Strategic Plans Division the authority which oversees command and control of Pakistan’s nuclear weapons. Under those thresholds, any threat of loosing further territory to Indian aggression would result in nuclear confrontation.”

*** tell me what is the chance that India can achieve this. Let us not milk issues which have almost no probability of happening. That is not forward looking. I am reminding you again that India cannot do it since Pakistan has nukes. It is simple as that. Nor can Pakistan wage overt wars like it used to do. Covert operations have not helped Pakistan so far. It is time to sit around a table and talk.

Do you think India and Pakistan should sign some treaty to not interfere in each other’s internal issues and not use any sort of overt/covert operations as tool to solve any issues. You should support this if you believe in let bygones be bygones. Although Simla agreement already says this but another treaty one can be signed. During Simla agreement Pakistan was the defeated party, now a new one can be signed where no one is the victor. Perhaps a better chance of working.

I understand your patriotism about PA but you should not hesitate to condemn their acts which are condemnable. With interior and foreign policy in their control, it makes sense you do that.

Do you think PA is so sacred for you that you cannot Patriotism comes in way at wrong time. If In that case Indians can start defending IA actions. Where does it lead? But that means if you

Point I am getting at is that India facilitated what was bound to happen. It was simmering for long time and political retards precipitated what might not have happened. All it needed was to allow Awami league into power which they deserved. Rest all is history.

“I have a question, if a country’s very existence is threatened (existential threat) don’t you think operating under survival mode irrational steps could be taken even inadvertantly? That’s why I say, we have had enough don’t push us any further.”

***As I said India would not have been in East Pakistan if Pakistan had nukes. What else is meant by “existential threat” My belief is that India-Pak cannot afford to fight even conventional war at this point with crackers in their hands.

BTW, what is meant by “don’t push us any further.” Last time it was Pakistan via so-called non-state actors who pushed India to the edge. India-Pak peace cannot happen with these lunatics around. If PA can take on everyone else in Pakistan—all shades of militants–pushtoon TTP and assortment of insurgents/terrorists in Waziristan, take on insurgents in Baluchistan, what ties its hands towards LeT? Is it your perception that LeT is not harmful to you–then you are mistaken. It is a matter of time. So far they have not helped solve Kashmir and now this LeT chief is addressing lawyers in Pakistan. These guys (and other related organizations) are the ones who have broken India-Pak peace and brought them to the edge of the war.

India and Pakistan need to have trade relations so strong that they stop thinking of hurting each other.

Take care

Posted by rehmat | Report as abusive
 

Rehmat:
“Do you think India and Pakistan should sign some treaty to not interfere in each other’s internal issues and not use any sort of overt/covert operations as tool to solve any issues.”

-Yes i do, infact on this very forum after the Mumbai attacks, I had expressed my opinion that India and Pakistan should open up cooperation, intelligence sharing, border control and law enforcement. Also sign an extradition treaty for exchange of wanted criminals if need arises.

BTW, since all guys like Ahmed Rashid a lot, here is an interesting article by him on Financial Times:

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/76decb60-f35e- 11df-b34f-00144feab49a.html#axzz15luW0WA 1

“The US failure to rein in the ISI, says Mr Karzai, leaves him no choice but to deepen his relationship with Pakistan if he wants peace with the Taliban.”

In a suggestion that alarms and infuriates western officials, he says there is a political alternative to Nato – to depend more on regional countries, especially Iran and Pakistan.”

Posted by Umairpk | Report as abusive
 

Umair

Sorry about the last post. I was in rush and there were some incomplete sentences.

“Yes i do, infact on this very forum after the Mumbai attacks, I had expressed my opinion that India and Pakistan should open up cooperation, intelligence sharing, border control and law enforcement. Also sign an extradition treaty for exchange of wanted criminals if need arises.”

*** That is encouraging!
Mumbai attack was unique the way it was conducted and also because it left a trail of irrefutable evidence that pointed finger at Pakistan in no uncertain manner. Two years have passed and if we are true to ourselves the progress in Pakistan on that case is pathetic. Putting few criminals behind bar is not that big deal for India since it would not help the bigger issue. What is important is Pakistan’s body language, which has not been favorable given from the very beginning and has been continued that way. LeT man Hafeez Saeed, who should be behind the bars, is addressing the lawyers. If I slip in your Pakistani shoes it may not seem like a big deal, but you get in Indian shoes and think about it. I would like to know your views on that. If the reverse had happened and 180 odd people died in Karachi at the hands of India-based terrorists, I would like to see noose around this person’s neck.

Let us say a treaty has been signed the way you mentioned, would you still tolerate this guy and other such established anti-India terrorism supporters, partying with politicians and lecturing lawyers?

Posted by rehmat | Report as abusive
 

@Rex

“And the evidence you provide in support of the accusations,are nothing but the newspapers sketchy reports of individuals and publications.”

***Probably all these guys are using the tool you love, the “mental intuition”.

Do you conveniently shift between intuition and evidence depending upon the situation?

I would much rather admire silence than name calling, such as mob, colonial blahs!

Posted by rehmat | Report as abusive
 

Rex

“Let the UNO investigate the PA behaviour in Bangla Desh and IA behviour in Punjab against Sikhs, and the ongoing operations against the Kashmiris.
Let the unbiased UNO provide the decision.
In the mean time let us stop pronouncing fatwas or judgements on hearsay stories. My own opinion, Gentlemen, you have a very weak case in a court of law.”

***Not a bad idea! No more fatwas.
Enough of this talk about PA/bangladesh, IA/Sikhs, IA/kashmir. let UN do the research and analysis.

Add to the list “useless talk on someone’s educational background.” which comes from you mostly.

Let us deal with the points or keep quiet and not dish out what we cannot handle.

Peace!

Posted by rehmat | Report as abusive
 

Rehmat:
“Two years have passed and if we are true to ourselves the progress in Pakistan on that case is pathetic. Putting few criminals behind bar is not that big deal for India since it would not help the bigger issue. What is important is Pakistan’s body language, which has not been favorable given from the very beginning and has been continued that way. LeT man Hafeez Saeed, who should be behind the bars, is addressing the lawyers. If I slip in your Pakistani shoes it may not seem like a big deal, but you get in Indian shoes and think about it. I would like to know your views on that.”

-Rehmat, try to understand that LeT thrives on the Kashmir dispute and exploits the conflict. Pakistan knows that putting a few individuals behind bars would not solve the problem, besides a crackdown on them would push them further underground and as its splinter groups would emerge and result in violence against the state. Pakistan is following a step by step approach right now TTP and LeJ etc. are the priority to deal with. But you trust me, putting Hafiz Saeed behind bars doesn’t solve the problem. ISI has its eyes and ears in Southern Punjab. That is the support base of LeT and LeJ (Punjabi Taliban hardline Sunni extremists), Army is getting leads, they cordon the areas in Southern Punjab and arrest those people. LeT is a banned organization, they change their name and emerge as Jamat Ud Dawah and resurface to evade the law enforcement. JUD was active in flood hit areas, they try to undermine the govt. exploit the issues like poverty and corruption inability of govt. and use vulnerable youth. Things would take time but we are on course and trust me Pakistan Army is the best hope to ensure we get the desired results. As Kashmir dispute is resolved, or atleast concrete steps get started towards that resolution I am sure the LeT will see a final crackdown.

On the contrary, when IC-814 was hijacked in Kandahar with hostages, Indian FM had to fly in with prisoners that India had to release in return of the hostages freedom. Sometimes you have to negotiate, with the criminals and sometimes you give a go ahead to final assault. We need to prepare the ground, eliminate their reason to exist. Just visualize these LeT guys are holding hostage the vulnerable populace, with history of Jihad in Kashmir. We need the right timing to go for final push.

Posted by Umairpk | Report as abusive
 

@Rehmat
I do not expect a different response from you either, so do not sweat. Have fun!

Rex Minor

Posted by pakistan | Report as abusive
 

@”Today, the reason why Pakistan is complaining about India’s involvement in Baluchistan is because Pakistan has zero tolerance for such a thing again” Posted by Umairpk

The problem here, is that your complaints are based on conspiracy theories rather than facts. It’s been years since you guys have been yelling about “India’s involvement in Baluchistan” & “the gazellion Indian embassies in Afghanistan” but to this date, your Govt has not provided an iota of evidence to India or the International community, have they?

@”No, Pakistan Army is the life blood of Pakistan much like a life line. The only order amidst all the chaos, without which there would have been no nuclear status”

It’s not the life blood of Pakistan but rather the entity which has sucked the blood out of Pakistan’s life. It is the entity responisble for unnecessary wars with India, radicalization of Pakistan, dismsmberment of your country & the creation of the terror infrastructure, which is eating Pakistan alive today. You being a part of a military family, I don’t expect you to agree with me.

@”But you trust me, putting Hafiz Saeed behind bars doesn’t solve the problem.”

Of course it does! It would be a huge symbolic gesture towards India that Pakistan is finally ready to eliminate India centric terrorism from it’s soil. It will also create a lot of goodwill for Pakistan in the global community. India will also be compelled to reciprocate by holding meaninful discussions on Kashmir & work towards solving it. These are just excuses that the PA is making, in order to keep groups like LeT alive & in the process also keep alive the hatred for India.

Posted by Mortal1 | Report as abusive
 

Mortal

So India was waiting for Mumbai disaster to happen, so that Pakistan could arrest Hafiz Saeed and in return a meaningful compelling peace negotiation effort could begin towards the resolution of Kashmir dispute? This is insane.
Mumbai attack was the result of a group attacking the city and everyone knows the group has been part of Kashmir conflict. Lets settle Kashmir dispute so that we eliminate these groups and there is no innocent loss of life anywhere.

” You being a part of a military family, I don’t expect you to agree with me.

Posted by Umairpk | Report as abusive
 

continued..

Again your perception is incorrect, whatever my family background just remember retired Soldiers and officers had made their organization which put a lot of pressure on Musharraf to resign and give way to a democratic elected govt. since the country was increasingly on the wrong direction. I recently came to know about Indo-Pak Soldiers Initiative for Peace (IPSI), a NGO formed by retired soldiers of Indian and Pakistani armies. I am sure they are doing some good work, current Army leadership is very supportive of civilian govt. on one occasion a dangerous political deadlock threatnening stability (on chief just of supreme court issue) was resolved when Army chief had to intervene and ask the govt. and opposition to settle the matter. When you are unaware of the role of Pak Army, please refrain from generic statements. I can only talk facts, its upto you if you are more interested in stories. Where there is fault I admit, you also admit that Army is doing the job to eliminate terrorists and arrest of many Al-Qaida members by ISI.

Posted by Umairpk | Report as abusive
 

Let’s get real, guys. India will not settle the Kashmir dispute now, not when it holds all the cards. This is Pakistan’s last gasp, and India will not blink. India’s economy is growing at close to 10% a year. The world sees this and wants a piece of the action. No one, not even the UN dares to talk about Kashmir now. It is becoming an untouchable topic like Tibet, because India is becoming as important to the world as China.

Pakistan, on the other hand, is in such bad economic shape that after a while, even China will begin to wash its hands off. China did $60 billion worth of business with India last year and the Chinese are pragmatists. After a point, the weather will change so much that even the all-weather friend will have to take Pakistan aside for a gentle breakup talk. That’s going to crush the spirit of Pakistanis even more than the snubs coming out of the Obama visit.

I don’t think the few of us puny individuals on this forum are going to do anything to change these realities. We could have used this forum to build goodwill. Unfortunately, that has not happened. So let’s stand back and watch reality do the work.

There will be peace in South Asia, but it will happen on humiliating terms for Pakistan. Those of us on the Indian side who were hoping for a more dignified and equal peace will have been unsuccessful in our attempts to reach out to the other side. There’s too much pride and hatred there to allow for a face-saving solution.

Regards,
Ganesh Prasad

Posted by prasadgc | Report as abusive
 

@”So India was waiting for Mumbai disaster to happen, so that Pakistan could arrest Hafiz Saeed and in return a meaningful compelling peace negotiation effort could begin towards the resolution of Kashmir dispute?”

Mumbai 2008 was just tipping point for Indians after being the terrorized by your establishment for 2 dacades, so don’t make Mumbai as the starting point because it was the end point. Mumbai 2008 made Indians realize that no matter how many gestures of goodwill, India shows towards Pakistan, your military establishment will not give up it’s sponsorship of terrorism in India. Let me put it this way, people like Haafiz Saeed, Dawood Ibrahim, Azhar Masood etc., are veiwed by Indians as the symbols of Pakistan’s hate & enimity with India. So, as long as your establishment continues to sheild these guys & their groups, the enimity will be alive but the moment they are punished & treated like the terrorists that they are, in Pakistan, is when Indians will feel that pakistan is sincere about mending fences.

@”Mumbai attack was the result of a group attacking the city and everyone knows the group has been part of Kashmir conflict”

That is utter BS. Mumbai attack (& the one’s before) had nothing to do with Kashmir. Were Kasab & his 9 comrades who sprayed bullets over innocent civilians, Kashmiri? Was the group that they belong to, Kashmiri? Were the leaders of that group, Kashmiri?
Kashmir is just a smoke screen set up by your army to deflect it’s real agenda, which always was, to break India by hook or crook & avenge 1971.
Again, I go back to 1989, when Punjabi groups like LeT & JeM were created, funded & trained by your army, to infiltrate kashmir & wage a proxy war against India. Kashmir was peaceful & prosperous until 1989. There was no Indian army & no atrocities on kashmiris. So, where was the need to liberate the kashmiris, who were living peacefully in India?

Posted by Mortal1 | Report as abusive
 

@”When you are unaware of the role of Pak Army, please refrain from generic statements. I can only talk facts, its upto you if you are more interested in stories.”

If you do an objective analysis of the history of Pakistan, it will be very clear to you that a lot of your country’s current problems can be attributed to the misdeeds & blunders of your army. But I’m sorry to say my friend, when it comes to the PA, your objectivity goes out the window. So, this argument it pointless.

Posted by Mortal1 | Report as abusive
 

@Umair

“Pakistan is following a step by step approach right now TTP and LeJ etc. are the priority to deal with. But you trust me, putting Hafiz Saeed behind bars doesn’t solve the problem.”

“Just visualize these LeT guys are holding hostage the vulnerable populace, with history of Jihad in Kashmir. We need the right timing to go for final push.”

***Let us wait and see. Only time will tell what happens.

“Mumbai attack was the result of a group attacking the city and everyone knows the group has been part of Kashmir conflict. Lets settle Kashmir dispute so that we eliminate these groups and there is no innocent loss of life anywhere”

***I have totally different stand on the issue. LeT guys are not like TTP or Afghan Taliban which can be called insurgents. LeT/JeM and their aliases based in Pakistan have no business to be in there since Indian Army is not entering their zones. In my book they are not insurgents or freedom fighters but plain cold blooded killers. A Kashmiri can be called a freedom fighter or a Jihadi, not these fellows. I know the next line of logic is that LeT is fighting Jihad for atrocities on fellow Muslims in Kashmir suffering at the hands of IA. THis is not Jihad but a choice made by ISI/PA.

If Pakistan is helpless in controlling these groups, then we got real problem at hand. As we discussed earlier that there needs to be an atmosphere of peace–no poking inside each other;s countries but solve issues by talking.

Kashmir is a solvable issues only if all 3 parties really wish. 4 wars and covert operations have all failed to solve anything and have brought India and Pakistan closer to serious war. It is time to move on with a civilized approach with short-term and long-term goals in my mind.

Posted by rehmat | Report as abusive
 

@Rex

“I do not expect a different response from you either, so do not sweat. Have fun!”

***Nice to see you are speaking my language :-)

Posted by rehmat | Report as abusive
 

Umairpk: “Mumbai attack was the result of a group attacking the city and everyone knows the group has been part of Kashmir conflict. Lets settle Kashmir dispute so that we eliminate these groups and there is no innocent loss of life anywhere.”

LeT has an agenda much larger than Kashmir. The following link provides some insight into its agenda:

http://www.satp.org/satporgtp/countries/ india/states/jandk/terrorist_outfits/las hkar_e_toiba.htm

See below the title “Objectives/Ideology”

This means, once Kashmir is “settled” LeT and other such groups are not going to stop. They need money to run their missions. Just collecting money from charities is not sufficient to run the logistics of war against a state, whether it is a proxy war or not. Wars are costly and countries go bankrupt waging wars. And LeT is able to sustain wars. Where is the money coming from? I am sure funding comes from Saudi Arabia charity missions, and American tax payers’ money filtered through the Pakistani military system. Commando style training is very expensive. No matter how much you people might deny it, everything is being watched and it is an open secret.

Tomorrow Pakistan’s leaders might simply wash them off as “non state actors” if they continue with their Jihad. The desperation to cover up the Mumbai attack investigation in a coherent and collective way by the Pakistani military and civilian establishments showed who is really behind everything.

To bring any peace in the region, the first thing to try is to stay out of each other’s affair. Our countries might be neighbors, but the two have distanced themselves far and wide. For about five years both countries should agree to simply not even look in each other’s direction. Once a stage of quietness is achieved, then diplomatic talks can be started. The main agenda should be to discuss only things going forward and nothing from the past must be brought to the table. Trade interactions can be started slowly. Over a period of about two decades, myths and misperceptions should be cleared between the people of the two nations. Only then efforts to bring peace will succeed. Kashmir is not a cure for all ills. We have already seen it in the article written by one Major in Pakistan.

Posted by KPSingh01 | Report as abusive
 

“Have you ever wondered how desperate would be a population to break away since it took just one year to create Bangladesh?”
One year? Not true.It started in early 60′s.
Agartala case was filed in early 1968 By the Ayub Govt, and implicated Sheikh Mujib and 35 others in conspiring with India against the succession of East Pakistan. The existence of blue print (succession) from Agartala was admitted recently by Sheikh Mujib’s daughter.
“***Let us assume Pakistani generals are as mad as you are, then this reflects their potential to commit genocide.”
If somebody attacks my home and family, I would retaliate with most lethal weapon I have. India was equally involved in separating east Pakistan.

Posted by babag | Report as abusive
 

I would call the nuclear arms as assault weapons and not the defensive or deterrent weapons. They are like a double edged sword which are dangerous for the aggressor and equaly dangerous for the country which possesis it.
The USA could not defend or deter the aggressors which struck them on Sept. 11. And what about India which also has bags of little sweet things. Were they able to avoid or defend against the invaders who supposedly came came from the water side? A thought for the people who are fond of the monsters.

Rex Minor

Rex Minor

Posted by pakistan | Report as abusive
 

babag: “Agartala case was filed in early 1968 By the Ayub Govt, and implicated Sheikh Mujib and 35 others in conspiring with India against the succession of East Pakistan. The existence of blue print (succession) from Agartala was admitted recently by Sheikh Mujib’s daughter.”

Provide a credible non-Pakistani reference link for this above claim. The whole Bangladesh issue started with language. For Bengalis, more than their religion, their language is as dear as their lives. Jinnah wanted Urdu to be the official language of Pakistan and the Bengalis refused to accept it. That was the start of all problems that later manifested as secession. In India too language is a big issue and the politicians have learned not to mess with it.

Posted by KPSingh01 | Report as abusive
 

@Rex

“And what about India which also has bags of little sweet things. Were they able to avoid or defend against the invaders who supposedly came came from the water side? A thought for the people who are fond of the monsters.”

***I totally agree terrorists (invaders to you!) cannot be controlled by nukes. That goes without saying. That is why these covert operations have become more fashionable after nukes prevented conventional wars.

Ordinary citizens do not dictate nuke policy of their respective countries. What they can do is stop giving threats to anyone about nukes—it is childish and irresponsible. America might have bombed Japan, but Americans do not give these threats, nor do Indians nor Europeans who have them. This phenomenon is peculiar to Pakistan citizens. The name given is Islamic bomb. What an irony! Islam, the religion of peace, has been associated with bomb!

Posted by rehmat | Report as abusive
 

@babag

“Agartala case was filed in early 1968 By the Ayub Govt, and implicated Sheikh Mujib and 35 others in conspiring with India against the succession of East Pakistan. The existence of blue print (succession) from Agartala was admitted recently by Sheikh Mujib’s daughter.”

***I really do no know about this. May be you can tell us more.

“If somebody attacks my home and family, I would retaliate with most lethal weapon I have. India was equally involved in separating east Pakistan.”
***You would have noticed my exchange of posts with Umair why Pakistan should sit tight and relax since they got nukes and EVEN IF (EVEN IF!) India has any intention of repeating B’desh, it is not possible. Even if you take nuke out of equation, countries like India and Pakistan cannot afford conventional wars. That would put them behind by many years. I am not sure how much you realize this.

To answer your question, no one would attack your house if you have some weapon that can make the attacker extinct. You have it and now focus on other stuff.

Posted by rehmat | Report as abusive
 

@babag

“Agartala case was filed in early 1968 By the Ayub Govt, and implicated Sheikh Mujib and 35 others in conspiring with India against the succession of East Pakistan. The existence of blue print (succession) from Agartala was admitted recently by Sheikh Mujib’s daughter.”

***I really do no know about this. May be you can tell us more.

“If somebody attacks my home and family, I would retaliate with most lethal weapon I have. India was equally involved in separating east Pakistan.”
***You would have noticed my exchange of posts with Umair why Pakistan should sit tight and relax since they got nukes and EVEN IF (EVEN IF!) India has any intention of repeating B’desh, it is not possible. Even if you take nuke out of equation, countries like India and Pakistan cannot afford conventional wars. That would put them behind by many years. I am not sure how much you realize this.

To answer your question, no one would attack your house if you have some weapon that can make the attacker extinct. You have it and now focus on other stuff.

Posted by rehmat | Report as abusive
 

Sometimes I feel that a certain segment of Pakistan is just itching to indulge in a nuclear cronfrontation with India. They desperately look for all kinds inane excuses for it, ranging from Indian interference in Baluchistan (via innumerable consulates in Afghanistan) to India stealing pakistan’s water (this issue seems be muted since the floods), etc etc. I just hope that the men in-charge, don’t embody such moronic or suicidal tendencies.

Posted by Mortal1 | Report as abusive
 

@Mortal
No segment is itchingto indulge in a nuclear confrontation. Both countries are scared to death because of their nuclear might. nuclear weapons cannot protect any one, quite the contrary.
To normalise the situation in the subcontinent force must be forced out of the equation. The use or rather misuse of force(might is right) is influencing the psyche of the people. The ball is in the Indian court, they cannot hang on to Kashmir with military force, since the citizens are up against the military. India should start a dialogue with the Kashmiris on both sides of the border and let its nukes go to sleep! this would encourage further dialogues and commerce.
Rex Minor

Posted by pakistan | Report as abusive
 

@Rehmat
It is not your fault. You are prejudiced and so are most Indians against Pakistan. I have said earlier, the people of India and Pakistan do not desire peace.
Indian leaders are proud of their working democracy. You are stating that ordinary citizens do not dictate the Nuke policy. Who does in India, the congress, the Prime minister or the military. Have we not heard threats from the Indian military Brass?

Ofcourse, it is childish and irresponsible and possibly it is part of the culture. But do not keep on defending the USA, which is sending threats possibly on a weekly basis. Ask the Iranians, the Syrians and the koreans. These threats are nothing but the expression of fear from what the other side is capable of doing. The world is getting serious now and is now involved in cyber war, Iran was the first to come under attack, the USA is the second during this week.
What are these incidents telling us, let us discuss it at a later date.

Rex Minor

Posted by pakistan | Report as abusive
 

Umairpk:

“-AGREED. Lets try to move on and wish peace between India and Pakistan which are two neighbours. Look we can call each other enemies, but we are neighbours as well. No one can change that reality. Lets hope one day we become FRIENDLY neighbours.”

—>NO..we are not enemies. The Pak Army is the enemy of peace between avg Indians and Pakistani’s. That is by far the single largest impediment to peace, irrefutably.

Friendship is within reach, always was and will be. It up to your Fauji’s, do they want to drag Pakistani’s through more hell, or do they want financial progress in Pakistan?

I think ALL Pakistani’s should have jobs dignity and security. Fauji’s don’t want Pakistani’s to lift up, educate and progress.

Posted by G-W | Report as abusive
 

All Fauji’s want is another war to resurrect their sense of bravado, it is still damaged from 1971 and past wars and they want to get back their war pride somehow, in the mean time, they will make Pakistani’s suffer, and stoke and foment Kashmir, as a consolation prize, while they cannot kill Indians in a direct war.

Be your own man, young Umair. It is time to demand change from your Gov’t and Army Emperors, your people are suffering needlessly.

Posted by G-W | Report as abusive
 

What needs to be clarified is this – At the people level, Indians and Pakistanis have no problems interacting and building goodwill. Most of us are against Pakistan’s military at this time. The reason is as follows.

Pakistan’s army has been spoiled by the US due to cold war geo-politics. There is no way any rehabilitation can be set up. Pakistan’s army has become like an alcoholic, having gotten used to excessive intoxication. The original goal of founding Pakistan for Muslims has been forgotten. Now all that is there is an army that is holding all parts of the fragile country together by force. Like Musharraf says, “Do not mess with us” is the mantra.

Proxy war against the Soviets has completely ruined the mindsets of the army generals. Which military general does not like strategies, conflicts and victories? They get bored sitting in the barracks just marching around. In a small country like Pakistan, especially with the martial nature of most people, a military with nothing to do is a very uncomfortable entity. They want to be in the middle of big conflicts, want to be the facilitators of big treaties, want to be on the forefront and rub shoulders with big empires. In the absence of all this, cold turkey sets in. With all the modern weapons, nukes and expertise, the Pak military simply cannot sit doing nothing.

The US has not allowed democratic institutions to take root in Pakistan for its own cold war objectives. And this has made the military the only institution in the country that can function in an organized manner with a structure. In all, Pakistan and its military have become synonymous in today’s context. And everyone cannot become a uniformed solider. So we have Jihadist militant groups who train their cadres to the same level as professional soldiers. There is no employment opportunities for most youth. Once these kinds of things gain momentum, it is very difficult to stop them. The only way out is to channel them outward at all times. This means, conflicts are needed on a continuous basis to keep the mind occupied and the elements kept busy.

Keeping the militants at bay due to US pressure has caused severe blow back in Pakistan. Now Pakistan can remain at peace only if it can channel its elements outward in all directions. There is no room for infrastructure building or development. Militant groups are criminal organizations that have no accountability for their actions. Pakistan’s military will use them and at the same time declare that they have no control over them. This is a dangerous situation. At some point, the balance will tilt and militant groups will become utterly uncontrollable. TTP is just the starting point. By keeping the region in conflict, people can be told that they are in danger of existential threat. This way no one will have to give any excuse for not building the nation. Outsiders who have been poked at relentlessly will be blamed for keeping the conflict alive.

In summary, peace is a dreadful thing for Pakistan today. This is because the militant groups cannot be contained by peace. All this talk of going back to peaceful times if Kashmir is settled etc are only talk. Pakistan’s army has put itself in a dangerous slide. It will need sustained conflicts in the future for its own survival against the militant elements it had generated. Now they are getting a mind on their own.

This is something patriotic Pakistanis are unable to understand. They get emotional and start supporting the very institution that is leading their country towards the path of self destruction. There are two countries one should not try to become enemies of – The US and Afghanistan. Soviet Union made that mistake and disappeared completely. Now Afghanistan will become Pakistan’s enemy state as well after NATO leaves in 2014. There is no trust on Pakistan. And a “defeated” US will not allow things to smooth out.

It is unfortunate. No one forethought of the consequences. No one can correct the PA. It is a point of no return. Hope a miracle saves the region.

Posted by KPSingh01 | Report as abusive
 

KP Singh said:

> It is unfortunate. No one forethought of the consequences. No one can correct the PA. It is a point of no return. Hope a miracle saves the region.

The miracle is mundane economics of the kind that brought down the Soviet Union. They simply cannot sustain a military budget to match India’s when their economy is stagnant. They will either start a nuclear war soon (as you fear), or they will have to come to the negotiating table on their knees.

For everyone’s sake, I hope they come to an agreement very soon, while they still have the dignity of strength. In five years, India will be able to dictate terms and that won’t do much for an ego already bruised by 1971.

Regards,
Ganesh Prasad

Posted by prasadgc | Report as abusive
 

@KPSingh
Your comments, a resolulation of the Kashmir issue could remove the bone of contention between India and Pakistan. There is no reason why the two neighbours could not then have an amiable relations with each other.

Let us not ignore that Pakistan Army is not foreign but the integral part of the country. The majority of the families in most part of Pakistan have one or more members serving in the Armed Forces. The prolonged military rule has polarised and radicalised the society and any hope of reverting to the normality would take xxxx years. During this period the country equires peace and stability without any foreign intervention. The international communities could provide support for civic institutions. Indian self interest would be served if it is friendly towards Pakistan which would be obliged to reciprocate.

The NO Return declaration or the like are not helpful since it provides the lifeline for the military rule and the suppression of the democratic rule of law.

Rex Minor

Posted by pakistan | Report as abusive
 

@Rex

“Ofcourse, it is childish and irresponsible and possibly it is part of the culture.”

***That was the answer and rest was unnecessary.

My previous post was about ‘INDIVIDUAL’ responsibility as a good citizen.

“But do not keep on defending the USA, which is sending threats possibly on a weekly basis.”
***Unnecessary and not worth a comment from me.

Posted by rehmat | Report as abusive
 

Pakistan: “There is no reason why the two neighbours could not then have an amiable relations with each other.”

It has been tried. At least from the Indian side many times hopes have been raised only to be disappointed by the derailment of such efforts. Simultaneously there are different establishments inside Pakistan, both official and unofficial, speak loud of their own foreign policy. Every time there has been a sincere attempt from the Indian side, some elements from the Pakistani side will derail it. I am not going to list them here. Friendship needs trust as the starting point. And Indians have lost complete trust of Pakistan today. At least if Pakistan, having declared itself as a nation in the forefront of war against terror, had helped nail the culprits responsible for Mumbai attacks and helped bring them to justice, a lot of trust could have been built. The entire Pakistani established employed various means to thwart it – denials, procrastination, cover up, delays, namesake arrests and so on. While treating India partially, Pakistan did everything to capture and hand off key terrorist elements that the US wanted and tried to project itself as sincere partner in war against terror. This duplicitous approach has made Pakistan unreliable and untrustworthy from the Indian stand point. Still India has opened up diplomatic channels, due to much pressure from the US. Indian public in general are not with the government on this.
The burden is on Pakistan now, if it really wants peace in the region with India. We will only reciprocate goodwill gestures if Pakistan initiates it. We have tried it and it has not worked. Pakistan seems to place pre-conditions as a means to avoid building any friendship with India. The way Pakistan treated India’s goodwill gesture during the floods is a classic example. There are lot of arrogant people there with perpetual erection. So long as they think with their third leg, they are not going to seek any peace in the region.

“Let us not ignore that Pakistan Army is not foreign but the integral part of the country. The majority of the families in most part of Pakistan have one or more members serving in the Armed Forces. The prolonged military rule has polarised and radicalised the society and any hope of reverting to the normality would take xxxx years.”

It is not going to happen now or in the future. There are too many skeletons buried in the closet and Pak military will never allow its image of a clean and respectable enterprise be tarnished by it. They have managed to hide all the truth about what they did in East Pakistan and have quietly shifted the blame to others. Once institutions make deal with criminal organizations, the latter will creep in and take over with time. Pak military in its current status cannot go back. It is a pipe dream to expect them to change. They are the ones who do not want any friendship with the neighbors. They want to be the ones dictating terms to others – telling India to get out of Afghanistan, Kashmir, Balochistan etc. Mr. Kayani has openly stated the military doctrine in Pakistan – India is the enemy. So the military will make sure that civilian puppets tow their line.

“During this period the country equires peace and stability without any foreign intervention.”

Does that include China? Saudi Arabia? I guess you have assumed that foreign intervention means it comes from the US and India. The US did not want to come back here after the Soviets were defeated. They “abandoned” the region as per Pakistani whiners. And India has no interest in Pakistan other than the danger it poses to its territorial integrity. There is enough record to substantiate that belief.

“The international communities could provide support for civic institutions.”

Unfortunately Pak military stands on the way and wants to siphon off all funding for its strategic uses against this imagined enemy India. Mr. Musharraf has openly mentioned that Pak military allocated a large chunk of money from abroad towards its activities against India. A lot of money has been poured over the past 63 years into Pakistan and most of it is in Swiss bank accounts of big level politicians, land lords, or militant groups. Pakistan first has to earn the trust of foreign donors. People are still debating in other forums about why Haiti got such a massive aid while Pakistan did not get that much during the floods. It is a clear indication of loss of trust. Unless Pakistan shows sincerity and earnestness in clearing the image it has created, things will not improve.

Indian self interest would be served if it is friendly towards Pakistan which would be obliged to reciprocate.”

India has tried all that. See my comments above. And we have no interest in Pakistan or its affairs. We have our own agenda and goal to move forward. Pakistan is only looked at as a hindrance and an irritant towards accomplishing that goal. India does not need Pakistan for its survival or progress. The Indian perspective therefore is that Pakistan is trying to drag its progress as there is nothing else in its agenda. We were warming up. People to people interaction had increased. Sports and arts interactions had become healthy. Suddenly the elements inside Pakistan saw this as a dangerous trend and executed the Mumbai attacks to shut it all out. The aftermath of those attacks did not go well either. Seeing Pakistan dodge and duck the issue instead of co-operating made things worse.

In our perspective, Pakistan’s military has no agenda other than to cause more trouble and sustain its power grip on it people.

May be you should try telling a few good things to your fellow Pakistanis, instead of asking Indians to take all the initiatives. One handed claps do not work.

Posted by KPSingh01 | Report as abusive
 

@Ganesh Prasad
Whenever there is a hope, the cloud of darkness gathers immediately and try to over shadow a process. I am an observer and try to be neutral, but you represent no none in the world of hopes and dreams.
It was not the mundane economics or the influence of the former Pope or any fear from the USA weapons,their defeat occured at the hands of very simple people called afghans. You do not know the psyche of the people of the poor central asian republics. After the defeat at the hands of afghans, the soviet Union could not maintain any hold on the central Asian Republics who have no respect for the looser. Mr Gorbachov had no alternative but to start the breakdown of the USSR. He is now living happily in Germany.

It is the divine power which is controlling the balance in the world; we have seen the Romans, the Bezentinians, the Ottomans, the Germans and the Japanese( who did not go on knees even after the 2 atomic drops),they all left us quietly and without making a big fuss.You are coming from the stregnth of capitalism, the economic boom of the system,the world of consume with the plastic money, living beyond one’s means, and is of the belief that it was economics which brought about the break down of the soviet Union (and its allies in Easter Europe). There are others like you who believe that had the soviet Union and its allies come over to the free market system and not depend on the communist controlled business system, they could have survived.
You are not even aware of the circumstances which the world is currently facing, the americans who are borrowing 40 cents of the dollar they consume, the indians who have hitherto failed to feed its citizens with simple two meals a day and are continuously taking the jobs of the americans and is now the biggest outsouce supplier of the USA, and Europe which are also consuming more than they can afford and struggling with their economies and the social system.

And not very far from the Indian borders there are around sixty million pashtoons who feed themselves with a simple meal and are happy to live in poverty satisfied with the hope that their life after death would be better than currently. On top of that they are still able to resist the most powerful of the powerful enemy(USA and NATO military and their leaders and the THINK TANK brains) and have defeated the lot in every combat. A surrender what they require from the invaders and not negotiations.

The world has not seen the nuclear war between the two Nuke countries. It is scary, there is not going to be a tit for tat story as shown in the hollywood films. we have already discussed this theory.
What we note is that countries who have Nukes are billigerant and both India and Pakistan belong to this group of billigerants. i wonder if India has more stregnth than Pakistan or even kashmiris to obtain a decision in their favour. I certainly would not like to in indian’s shoes, and Pakistan has nothing more to loose what they have already lost.

Rex Mnor

PS I m disappointed with your statement since this in my view is the cause of rifts between the two contries, the problem of a culture perhaps, the left over from the colonial days. first call people and Govts. terrorists and then seek a dialogue. The fact that the Iranian Govt. is not prepared to have a diplomatic relationship with the USA tells us something. Perhaps India and Pakistan should break off diplomatic relationship for a period 5-10years. This could at least put a stop to the current love hate statements from both sides?

Rex Minor

Posted by pakistan | Report as abusive
 

Pakistan: “And not very far from the Indian borders there are around sixty million pashtoons who feed themselves with a simple meal and are happy to live in poverty satisfied with the hope that their life after death would be better than currently. On top of that they are still able to resist the most powerful of the powerful enemy(USA and NATO military and their leaders and the THINK TANK brains) and have defeated the lot in every combat. A surrender what they require from the invaders and not negotiations.”

This Pashtun butt worship is annoying. In the case of others it is poverty. In the case of Pashtun it turns into two simple meals. All Pashtuns are not militants. Many are farmers and peasants. Not all Pashtuns are Taliban either. You are cleverly mixing them all up and projecting them as some heavy horned, three eyed gargantuans.

I think you are suffering from Stockholm syndrome. Probably the Pashtuns did something to your rear end.

Americans did not come to Afghanistan to defeat the Pashtuns. They drove off the Taliban who did not stand up and fight. The Taliban simply ran for cover into the hinterlands of Pakistan and are hiding like cowards. Drones are flying over their heads and they have to hide and escape during nights. The other Pashtuns are growing poppy. Pashtuns have managed to survive not because of some huge military might. They have been covered by Pakistan’s military withe expectation that when the Americans finally leave, Pakistan will get to control their destiny. Thus your mighty Pashtuns are at the mercy of Pakistan’s military. The other half is getting dole from the Americans.

Even the Russians could have crushed your dear Pashtuns if the Americans did not come from behind and help them. All that has been forgotten. What this tells me is that your dear Pashtuns have no sense of gratitude and can stab those who helped them from behind.

Do not build propaganda for no reason. Pashtuns, today are just like other fellow humans. If you carry a machine gun, it does not make you invincible. Others can carry it too.

Posted by KPSingh01 | Report as abusive
 

@KPSingh

” Not all Pashtuns are Taliban either. You are cleverly mixing them all up and projecting them as some heavy horned, three eyed gargantuans.”

***Rex pictures Afghanistan as a holy land where all pushtoons have undergone mandatory military training to serve under Taliban. It is hard to debate with him when he has firm belief that Taliban are powerful enough to take out Indian nukes and liberate Kashmir.

He has made Taliban and Pushtoon synonymous though his tireless efforts and he has succeeded at that.

Pushtoons have their own negatives and positives just like any other population can be imagined to have. There is nothing holy or not holy about that place.

Posted by rehmat | Report as abusive
 

rehmat: “Pushtoons have their own negatives and positives just like any other population can be imagined to have. There is nothing holy or not holy about that place.”

There are lot of wonderful Pathans that have settled in India for generations. Many have done very well in the arts field. Shah Rukh Khan, Yusuf bhai (Dileep Kumar), Amjad Khan etc come to mind. Many Afghans (mostly Pathans) have settled in Deccan and places like Hyderabad. They are high culture people who came with the regal dynasties of the past. Saleem Durrani in the past played for Hyderabad and was famous for hitting sixers. None of them belong to the barbarians who live in the mountains of Waziristan. People become what they are due to their circumstances. The great Khan Abdul Gaffar Khan opposed the very idea of Pakistan and is always remembered as Frontier Gandhi. In Pakistan there are famous Pathans like Imran Khan. I am sure this Rex guy has no idea who these wonderful people are. He is focusing on the militants and bandits and romanticizing them. Pashtuns are normal people just like anyone else.

Posted by KPSingh01 | Report as abusive
 

Interestingly, the word Pashtun has been grossly misunderstood by most people in the world. Pashtuns are basically an ethnic group which emerged in the eastern Iranain belt back in the 2nd BC & migrated to Afghanistn & North Western Pakistan in the ensuing millinias. Although, a majority of Pashtuns are muslim & speak Pashto, there are many hindu & sikh Pashtuns in India & Pakistan. The Indian film industry is full of Pashtuns, both muslims & hindus. The famous Kapoor family (Raj Kapoor etc) are also Pashtuns as are many others. Makes me wonder about my own ethnic makeup since my ancestors also hailed from Peshawar.

Posted by Mortal1 | Report as abusive
 

@KPSingh
I am sure you do not want a response from me. The world is sadly witnessing the defeat of the americans and all the rest in the land of warriors and you and Rahmat are of the opinion that they are only few. The Americans have removed their names from the terrorist list and yet they are not prepared to negotiate with fgorteigners. You are one of the luckiest watching the history in making and yet you pretend that this is not real.

I recognise that there are still many who want to have a go at them and see if they can overpower them, making the same mistake in believing that only few hundred or thousands are involved against the quarter million foreign troops.

You are perfectly right if I were you I would not trust a Pashtoon either. The Americans know it but have no choice to go along with Mr Karzai the leader of a tribe, whose father was the casualty at the hands of the so called talibans. And yet the Pashtoons are one against the foreigners. This is their stregnth, their agility to act, lunch in Pashawar and combat in Qandhar! For them it is a 24 hr travel to kashmir, they have done it before and found no one to oppose them and they are capable of repeating it again, when the time comes. India can then show its stregnth.

Rex minor

Posted by pakistan | Report as abusive
 

Rex

“For them it is a 24 hr travel to kashmir, they have done it before and found no one to oppose them and they are capable of repeating it again, when the time comes. India can then show its stregnth.”

***I am sure Mullah Omar is noticing you and would make you Afghanistan’s Ambassador to Germany once Taliban returns to power.

About that 24hr travel, let them deal with Pakistan Army first. You know the deal, right? Check with TTP.

“This is their stregnth, their agility to act, lunch in Pashawar and combat in Qandhar!”
***It is time to expect these Taliban to show their REAL JUICE and put their energy in building up Afghanistan. That was the purpose of the student organization (!!!!) post civil war situation after US/USSR left. Their achievement is zero. Even before 9/11 they were busy blowing up their own country.

Posted by rehmat | Report as abusive
 

Hey Rex,

You need to come out of high school soon. No one is interested in testing the fighting prowess of others today. Every society has run over others through history. Mongols ran all over Pashtun land once upon a time. Alexander the Great founded the city of Kandahar. His Selucid empire was headquartered in Afghanistan. In fact the first Mauryan emperor defeated Selucas Nicador who ruled over the region that you proudly claim as Pashtun land. Every tribe has been victor some time and has been at the receiving end some other time. It is time you came out of the past. Daisy cutters can wipe out all of Pashtunistan. No one is interested in those childish ventures. Everyone wants to move on with their lives, Americans included. It is unfortunate that some lunatics sitting in Afghanistan attacked Americans in New York. They are not here to play a boxing match to test the strength of Pashtuns. If Al Qaeda did not f*ck withe Americans, Pashtuns would have been left to fondle their own donkeys. No one really cares if they exist or not. So why don’t you sing your praises where it matters?

Posted by KPSingh01 | Report as abusive
 

@KPSingh
Now you have made a full circle and once again telling us the story of the origin of the pashtoons, not dealing with the current situation.
My comments were to understand and explain the cultural background of the people the world armies are currently dealing with.
The german republic is currently on stand by and are expecting an attack from the so called talibans who we are told are travelling on the caravan route from waziristan to the German republic to carry out criminal acts in public places.
No body wants these uninvited guests in this country.

And you are once again playing the BIg Brother music and presenting it as a victim. Yes they were victim of the attack by the arabs not Pashtoons, who do not believe in suicides. The Pashtoons are the victims now, have sympathy for them. The vietnamese were the victims, do not always hang on with the wrong party.-
I have a very simple rule, I favour the victims and praise the winner who fights and then wins. I have no praise for the looser. i remember on this blog way back a Pakistani most probably ex military man even described to me the period of roughly six days for the Pakistan army to eliminte the waziristan uprising. I kept on advising him that waziris are the most fearless warriors in History experiernced by the Brits. You have a good read of history. It is the waziris now who are giving dance lessons to the most professionaly trained marines. There are a number of videos now on the internet taken by France 24 correspondents showing how good the marines re in protecting themselves from the snipers.
I would not bet on your favourites!

Rex Minor

PS Like the former German Chancellor said that Alex the great was the only sensible soldier who avoided any contact with the Pashtoons and travelled at night towards peaceful and friendly Taxela, India. There have been many tourists who have seen the route which is now used by the smugglers.

Posted by pakistan | Report as abusive
 

Right after 9/11, the US Deputy Secretary of State, Richard Armitage went to Islamabad & met with Musharraf, He told him “if your don’t cooperate with us, we’ll bomb you back to the stone age”. Musharraf thought for a minute & said “we’ll cooperate, sir. We don’t don’t want to go back to the stone age”. Then Mr. Armitage went to Kabul & met with the Pashtun Taliban leader. He told him the same thing “if your don’t cooperate with us, we’ll bomb you back to the stone age”. The Pashtun leader, without hesitating for a second, replied “You can bomb us all you want. We don’t care because we never got out of the stone age”.

Posted by Mortal1 | Report as abusive
 

The only reason of Pashtun “invincibility” is that they have absolutely NOTHING to lose. Over the centuries, they have kept their standards of living SO low that they probably consider death as an upgrade.

Posted by Mortal1 | Report as abusive
 

Motal1: “We don’t care because we never got out of the stone age”.

Actually Armitage did not speak in Pashto. So they thought he had come to buy heroine from them.

In the case of Musharraf, Armitage asked, “Are you with us or against us?”

Musharraf took it literally. So he worked with the Americans on one side and worked against them on the other. Can’t blame him for that. He is used to double meanings in everything. When Nawaz Sharif said “Peace with India,” Musharraf thought it was war and launched the Kargil offensive.

This whole place has been double dealing since historic times. Babur when he was planning to campaign into Hindustan to take on Ibrahim Lodi, sought the help of a Punjabi war lord named Daulat Khan. He did pretty much what Musharraf did. He did not know which way things were going to go. So he said whatever please Babur to him and whatever pleased Lodi when he met him. Babur realized this duplicity. So he had Daulat Khan brought to him with two swords hanging around his neck. One for betraying him and one for betraying Lodi.

These people have not changed over centuries. It has been their way of survival. They just pretend to be working with you while they pretend to be working with your enemy as well. Whoever gains, they will switch sides immediately. Such is the culture.

Posted by KPSingh01 | Report as abusive
 

Mortal1: “The only reason of Pashtun “invincibility” is that they have absolutely NOTHING to lose. ”

Where? Down below? or in the heads?

Posted by KPSingh01 | Report as abusive
 

@Mortal1
Had Dick armitage uttered these words to a Pashtoon leader, he would not have come back to report his experience. He knew that Musharaf was not the lad who could take pressure and therefore armitage approach towards him was relatively gentle, and in addition to the stone age scenario, he was also told about the torture chambers of the USA, as well as the maximum security prisons where most foreign dignatories are accomodated. I could never even dream to live the day to see Mullah Omar becoming the most powerful and feared personality of 2010. Both Times and Newsweek are competing to display his pictureon the cover next month.

Rex Minor

Posted by pakistan | Report as abusive
 

Pakistan: “I could never even dream to live the day to see Mullah Omar becoming the most powerful and feared personality of 2010.”

Hey you are hurting Bin Laden’s gentle feelings! He claims to be the most feared dude. That might start a civil war in the caves about who is the most feared. Between the two, I think Bin Laden has the advantage – He has both eyes and is tall. His neck sticks out of the roof actually. Mullah Omar has only one eye. I think the Tajiks took the other eye for a soup dip. Bin Laden says he is better than Omar because he bombed the US and the US came and bombed Omar’s rear end off. All the Toyota trucks that the Taliban owned have been taken by the Americans. Poor Mullah Omar, he had to find a motor bike and escape to the safety in Pakistan. On his way his bike died and he ended up on top of a donkey. And further on the donkey itself died as Mullah was sexually harassing it in addition to riding it. Now he is sitting in Quetta under the watchful eyes of the ISI and Pak military. And he is hoping that the drones will kill off Bin Laden soon enough.

I know you can’t wait to see public beheadings, chopping off limbs, tongue pulling, eye ball plucking, flogging etc on stadiums built for soccer which was the game brought by impure infidels. And then there is further entertainment of blasting off pagan statues and temples. Power indeed. As soon as Afghanistan is “liberated” I can bet you will be there as the first Pashtun concubine to celebrate victory. Who needs women? There are plenty of Rex Minors from the old faithful school. Mullah Omar is going to have a tough time choosing between these virgins in the new paradise that is about to come.

Are you practicing new dance moves? Taliban might like it. The only sad part if you will not be writing here to entertain us because you will be busy there making the Pashtuns happy.

Posted by KPSingh01 | Report as abusive
 

@Rex Minor/Pakistan

Why don’t cut this nonsensical, annoying & utterly ridiculous chest thumping AND come out & admit that YOU ARE a Pashtun. C’mon, be a man!

Posted by Mortal1 | Report as abusive
 

Yes Pashtuns are good fighters, so what? You take a group of humans of any race, religion or ethnicity, put them in caves & mountains & train them in fighting, generation after generation AND that group of people will turn out to be damn good fighters. Practise makes a man perfect & the only thing Pashtuns have been practising for centuries, is fighting. The only education & livelihood they know of, is related to fighting. Their males are supposed to fight & their females are supposed to bear Pashtun sons, who can become fighters & that’s pretty much their purpose in life. They have no achievements besides that. They are nothing but a bunch of people who are bottled up in the stone age and for anyone, to project them as some sort of super-human beings, is beyond ridiculousness.

Posted by Mortal1 | Report as abusive
 

My above comment is specifically with referrence to the militant Pashtuns, who have refused to progress & better their lives AND not the ones, who are progressive & productive citizens of Afghanistan & other countries.

Posted by Mortal1 | Report as abusive
 

@Mortal
It is a hell of a task to address a ccomplete community and express ‘unsinn’, ‘Quatsch’ and in english non sense. My simple reply would be a polite”mind your own business”. Try to compare one on one, and most of us would be interested your comments about the Indian Faqir who still receives aid from the tax payes around the world for being a inderdeveloped country and therefore unable to feed its citizens, and then wants to take a permanent seat in the UN security council and buying more lethal weaponry. Have fun. try not to think loud. We are all humans, your constituion must change to reflect that the diginity of a human is inviolable. We must the people as they are and not behave like a kenyan who went to the USA brought a son out, who the goes to India and tell them “what is in the interest of India”.
Rex Minor

Posted by pakistan | Report as abusive
 

@Rex Minor/Pakistan

You should know about nonsense, since you seem to have a doctorate in it. As for the rest of your garbage, I choose to ignore because, well as usual, it’s nonsense. So calm down & don’t forget to take your medication.

Posted by Mortal1 | Report as abusive
 

@Rex

“I have a very simple rule, I favour the victims and praise the winner who fights and then wins. I have no praise for the looser.”

***OK let us find out what do you think of the following case.

Columbus discovered America, and immigrants from Europe fought with the Native Americans(read “victims” according to your “simple rule”). Native Americans were killed and the immigrants won. Now according to your rule, do you 1) favor Native Americans, 2) Praise Europeans who killed the Natives and 3) Do you have no praise for the lesser equipped Native Americans who fought the best they could.

Posted by rehmat | Report as abusive
 

@Rehmat
Rewind the history and “srvival of the fittest” emerges. The rest of the stories like how the west was won are nothing more than children stories. besides the few natives could not live theie lives any more when their buffalos stock was eaten up by the european settlers.
You are always acting like the devil’s advocate. No offence is intended.
Have fun.

Rex Minor

Posted by pakistan | Report as abusive
 

The topic is about Pakistan’s course in the wake of new American strategic thinking.

Mr. Rex,

I’d suggest sticking to the topic line as much as possible. This is not the forum for discussing religious beliefs, non-believers, stomach etc. You have basically hijacked the discussion with responses from Indians. This discussion is turning non-sensical.

Posted by KPSingh01 | Report as abusive
 

Rex

“You are always acting like the devil’s advocate. No offence is intended.”

***Acting like Devil’s advocate is helpful since that challenges us to introspect.

Let me go further, what if USA nuke the hell out of Afghanistan and there is no living Pushtoon or any Taliban left, just their Kleshnikovs. There is nothing special about Pushtoons that it was not about Natives–both live simple lives, isn’t it?

I am trying to feel your survival of fittest theory. Then you should be OK with USA nuking Japan to its Knees. Survival of the fittest, right?

I am a person who asks questions to get better answers and a useful debate. Bit uncomfortable, but helpful. No offense, really!

Posted by rehmat | Report as abusive
 

@KPSingh

You are right sir. I did not mean to run away from the article. I shall revert to it as soon as I have answered Rehmat.

@rehmat
I have no problem with your non-cynical questions. But since you are raising hypothetical questions, may I suggest that you schould better spend some time in French and German universities to study Philosophy, or straight go to the devil’s den in Brooking Institute or chattahm House.

The problem you have is faced by most history students, the time and the place when history is experienced is often forgotten. I once aked a question, if you do not recognise that the Europeans are at least a century ahead of your civilisation, then there is no need to discuss further certain questions.

I am not taking you back to the neandertaler humans, but let us try to go back to the good old days, when there was starvation in Europe. People were looking for jobs that were not there and food which was not sufficient. There was also anarchy and criminality and the police were unable to handle them.
Most criminals from the UK were then being despatched to Austarlia. The poor and adventrous Irish and other europeans went over to the USA along with criminals,bandits and starving families to find a land where they could grow grain and prosper.

Well they found the land and some natives, apaches in the USA and the aborignies in Austaralia as well. So what, the natives assimilated or vaniished, and their place was slowly taken over by the slaves from africa. Not to forget the so called civil war in america, I do not what was civil in that war.
There were battles in america among the primitive agnostics and the south lost.

The Americans and the Austraians gradualy became so called civilised, with support from their countries of origin, though I must admit the Americans took a longer time but then very shorly took a decline slowly and slowly.

During the ww2 the europeansand the Americans were more or less civilised humans. This was the single most important reason to confront the Germans who under Hitler suddenly felt like conquering and controlling the terrotories and the people of the world.
The USA has not nuked Japan to its knees(do not distort the history).
No I am not o’k, we were not living in the stone age, the americans bombed the Japanese as a revenge and the brits bombarding the Dresden was also a revenge and what we are witnessing in your part of the world is also the revenge. So stop calling the people radicals, talibans, terrorists etc etc. The survival of the fittest is no longer valid. There are people in this world who have allocated all their wealth for the benefit of those who need it. We are civilised now, we have lost a lot but have learned. We do not want Indians and Pakistanis to follow the ways of Americans. The USA cannot keep on consuming a larger share of the earth resorces, they must allow others like India and China with large populations to improve the standard of living for their people.

Apparently you have never met Pashtoons, they live on proteins and fruits. How can you even imagine about them being defeated. They manufacture KK’s, and take their opium right across the oceans and land to reach their customers across the world. Let the Americans at least destroy their opium fields to demonstrate that they are capable of confronting them at least. KPSingh knows their history, what is it all about.´Are they invisible in battles; they picked up a man supposedly the Taliban leader and supposedly brought him in a helicopter from Quetta to Kabul and then discovered that the guy was an imposter? France 24 cable network newsitem.

Rex Minor

Posted by pakistan | Report as abusive
 

Rex

“may I suggest that you schould better spend some time in French and German universities to study Philosophy, or straight go to the devil’s den in Brooking Institute or chattahm House.”

*** How do you know I did not spend sometime allover? It is stupid any way. Keep your German and Taliban love, and American hatred to yourself.

You are getting absurd by the day.
Rehmat

Posted by rehmat | Report as abusive
 

@Rehmat
Sorry, in my view you a very poor knowledge or perhaps deliberately posting motherhood. I have no feelings for foreigners, neither love nor hate. I simply admirte the winners and ignore or pity the loosers. You have definitely not been exposed to philosophy that is why I mentioned these countries. Not to belittle you.
Have fun to use your words.

Rex Minor

Posted by pakistan | Report as abusive
 

@Mortal
Doctrate yes, but not in nonsense. Do you also address your Professors in such a unfriendly way? Be careful, the break is over. Let us concentrate on the topic; CFR on Pakistan!
Rex Minor

Posted by pakistan | Report as abusive
 

@KPSingh
You are a hilarious personality. You would even outmatch the commedians of CNN and CNBC. There were minor errors though in your narration, BL is or was the son in law of the powerful Omar. Mr BL has died several years ago and Mr Omar is now permanently in meditation in the arabian world, perhaps a guest at the BL’s family saudi residence. Saudi Arabia as you know is the God father of the USA and keeping their economy going.

Rex Minor

PS Omar lost his one eye battling Russians the friends of the communist gang in Afghanistan, not at the hands of his cousins.

Posted by pakistan | Report as abusive
 

@Rex
“Sorry, in my view you a very poor knowledge or perhaps deliberately posting motherhood.”
***Was it you who said you do not have patience with anyone who does not follow your thinking. Use wide angle lens to understand what I say.

“deliberately posting motherhood.”
***???

“You have definitely not been exposed to philosophy that is why I mentioned these countries. Not to belittle you.”

***Yes Dr. Minor, the father of crapilosophy, you are right, I have not been exposed to this particular area of philosophy. Trust me I am learning fast and prove to be a good student.

What a nut case!

Posted by rehmat | Report as abusive
 

Minor,

I have no intention of wasting my time, indulging in a sparring contest with you. Bottomline is, I don’t have much of an appetite for your factless, delusional & pshycic, “stomach based” line of thinking. I don’t think you’re a bad guy, just that most of your comments don’t make much sense to me. take care!

Posted by Mortal1 | Report as abusive
 

@Mortal
Grow up and grow out of rudeness. At least try it.
Rex Minor

Posted by pakistan | Report as abusive
 

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