Comments on: Sentenced to death: On Pakistan’s minorities http://blogs.reuters.com/pakistan/2010/11/20/sentenced-to-death-on-pakistans-minorities/ Perspectives on Pakistan Thu, 01 Oct 2015 19:31:05 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=4.2.5 By: rehmat http://blogs.reuters.com/pakistan/2010/11/20/sentenced-to-death-on-pakistans-minorities/comment-page-3/#comment-34295 Sun, 05 Dec 2010 07:27:19 +0000 http://blogs.reuters.com/pakistan/?p=6420#comment-34295 @777

” But I would say instead of justifying Islamic Banking as better compared to other banking systems, you should first get to bottom of banking itself.”

***wait a minute I did not say that Islamic banking is better than the conventional banking.

I was addressing a particular point. There is a lot of sophistry and several models of transactions in Islamic Banking. It needs one separate discussion. At the end of the day, I would be surprised if the “substance” in Islamic banks in an indirect way does not mean, let us say “interest”, in the conventional banking. good idea to get to the basics and see money flow.

Thanks for the complement. We all are learned in our fields.

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By: 777xxx777 http://blogs.reuters.com/pakistan/2010/11/20/sentenced-to-death-on-pakistans-minorities/comment-page-3/#comment-34287 Sun, 05 Dec 2010 02:05:14 +0000 http://blogs.reuters.com/pakistan/?p=6420#comment-34287 @rehmat
“Now assume this 100 bucks makes 10bucks profit, it is not interest”

How can bank share loss?? Which is the money that bank invests in first place?? As I said investigate deep into banking and you would know and in fact would appreciate that bank (including Islamic Banks) does not share loss. :) Because banks are NOT venture capitalists. What you are talking is of a venture capitalists. Banks do not have money of their own. Try to track incoming and outgoing money of a bank and you would get to truth of it.

So you are a medical scientist, WOW I feel honoured to be in discussion with such a learned person. But I would say instead of justifying Islamic Banking as better compared to other banking systems, you should first get to bottom of banking itself.

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By: rehmat http://blogs.reuters.com/pakistan/2010/11/20/sentenced-to-death-on-pakistans-minorities/comment-page-3/#comment-34286 Sun, 05 Dec 2010 00:53:32 +0000 http://blogs.reuters.com/pakistan/?p=6420#comment-34286 @777

This “profit on capital invested” is what is called INTEREST
***It is not that simple. Bank is a partner in the business and shares profits/loss. Let us say if 100bucks investment lent to a borrower are put into a businees. Now assume this 100 bucks makes 10bucks profit, it is not interest. It is profit on the sale. This is what is shared. If there is a loss that would be shared too. Interest will be when bank would charge a pre-fixed money on the capital invested money it lent (called interest).

In other transactions, like you said interest might be charged, but that is not obvious. I would be shocked if interest is not being charged but that would take an economist to open it up.

I am not a software engineer nor an economist. I have designed something which I wish you never have to use (cancer drug).

Let us get to the nuke blog now.

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By: 777xxx777 http://blogs.reuters.com/pakistan/2010/11/20/sentenced-to-death-on-pakistans-minorities/comment-page-3/#comment-34269 Sat, 04 Dec 2010 13:58:05 +0000 http://blogs.reuters.com/pakistan/?p=6420#comment-34269 @Rehmat

“Profit sharing is allowed so bank makes profit on capital invested”

This “profit on capital invested” is what is called INTEREST. I have been a good student of economics along with engineering. As I said before investigate deep into banking and you would know that Islamic banking is no less horrible than other banking systems worldwide.

Anyway seems we are deviating from the topic at hand, so lets end it here.

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By: rehmat http://blogs.reuters.com/pakistan/2010/11/20/sentenced-to-death-on-pakistans-minorities/comment-page-3/#comment-34262 Sat, 04 Dec 2010 01:01:34 +0000 http://blogs.reuters.com/pakistan/?p=6420#comment-34262 @777

Damn it you are asking too many questions :-) Do not take my sin statement seriously!

“Picture this. I work hard and earn good money. Now a poor guy who has some brilliant business idea comes to me and asks for some money for help. I say I give you money but what is my benefit in it? The deal finally is that along with paying me back my money the guy gives me a small amount of his profits. Is this haraam as per Islam??”
***No, this is not forbidden. This is a joint venture, which is allowed provided the nature of business is permissible. Profit and loss during business is shared.

“By the way how do Islamic Banks make profits (without profits no Banks can survive)?? And if interest is “Haraam” then banking (business of money, where money is the commodity of trade) itself becomes Haraam even if it is Islamic Banking. I would suggest you to investigate very very deep into Banking and so called Islamic Banking before calling anyone (including yourself) a sinner for taking advantage of banking services.”
***I do not have personal experience with this type of banking as I said earlier. I know is from discussions. There are round about ways of moving money without charging interest. Bank charges administration fee, but not interest. Profit sharing is allowed so bank makes profit on capital invested. Bank becomes an investor and shares profits from the business venture that the borrower has invested the money in. Also bank can give interest-free loan, but the customer is free to give some amount (no obligation). There are mutual funds compatible with this system. Etc etc

Few things are clear: no interest charging, investment in permissible businesses, profit is perfectly fine.
Issues raised are if interest is charged in other ways or not.

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By: 777xxx777 http://blogs.reuters.com/pakistan/2010/11/20/sentenced-to-death-on-pakistans-minorities/comment-page-3/#comment-34247 Fri, 03 Dec 2010 06:56:32 +0000 http://blogs.reuters.com/pakistan/?p=6420#comment-34247 @Rehmat
“Interest is haraam in Islam.”

Picture this. I work hard and earn good money. Now a poor guy who has some brilliant business idea comes to me and asks for some money for help. I say I give you money but what is my benefit in it? The deal finally is that along with paying me back my money the guy gives me a small amount of his profits. Is this haraam as per Islam?? By the way how do Islamic Banks make profits (without profits no Banks can survive)?? And if interest is “Haraam” then banking (business of money, where money is the commodity of trade) itself becomes Haraam even if it is Islamic Banking. I would suggest you to investigate very very deep into Banking and so called Islamic Banking before calling anyone (including yourself) a sinner for taking advantage of banking services.

You see these are the problems created by fatwas. Ancient religions serve only the times they were created so modifications and up gradations are needed from time to time.

As for fatwas for blasphemy we seem to be somewhat on same page (but not completely ofcourse). I suggest people mature enough to not fume over something practically irrelevant and you say law becomes mature enough to not let anyone speak nonsense. But yes we agree that no death sentences for blasphemy :).

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By: rehmat http://blogs.reuters.com/pakistan/2010/11/20/sentenced-to-death-on-pakistans-minorities/comment-page-3/#comment-34225 Thu, 02 Dec 2010 17:03:08 +0000 http://blogs.reuters.com/pakistan/?p=6420#comment-34225 @777

““Don’t you think Fatwas add complexity to already complex situation of blasphemy? Pakistan is a glaring example of it. I think its time to redefine fatwa in light of modern world requirements so as to achieve greater cohesion, integeratiion and peace. Let me know your thoughts.”
***When you hurt someone’s well founded beliefs there are troubles but death sentence is not the way. Mechanisms that prevent irresponsible freedom of expression is a step in this direction. That’s what my stand was on our earlier discussion.

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By: rehmat http://blogs.reuters.com/pakistan/2010/11/20/sentenced-to-death-on-pakistans-minorities/comment-page-2/#comment-34221 Thu, 02 Dec 2010 08:36:17 +0000 http://blogs.reuters.com/pakistan/?p=6420#comment-34221 @777

Fatwas are not trouble free mechanism. There have been contradictory fatwas. There have been fatwas by Usama bin Laden against Americans, Fatwas by Islamic scholars against terrorism (there is one detailed one from Pakistan; forgot the name now). It depends upon the individual which one to follow.

The problem is that issuing fatwa is a responsible job but has been done non-seriously without deep thought. To do according to Islam is to do the right thing. The keyword in issuing a fatwa is to take into view the
“changing world”. That means that knowing Holy Koran is not enough. Connecting the past with the present is crucial. It is no surprise that not all scholars have similar vision and Muftis NEED to know the changing world. How many do is anybody’s guess. That is why fatwas are issued with a disclaimer “Allah knows the best”.

“Fundamentals of all religions are same but when it comes to finer details then religions may fall short of the requirements of modern world. Eg- Fatwa saying muslims should not deposit money in banks and should not invest in share markets.”
***Interest is haraam in Islam. Islamic banking is the option and increasing number of banks are catering to the needs. The idea is to make money during trade, not money from money or borrow money. It is different and a workable concept. The way money changes hands, it is hard to know who is supporting whom. I am a sinner though!

“Do you really think Fatwas remaining non-binding is possible on ground with people who might not be educated enough to differentiate between politically motivated fatwas (both of us know politically motivated fatwas are truth) and genuine ones? Don’t you think this weakness is being exploited too much to gain political ends?”
***it is possible, people do shopping for fatwa for normal issues and pick on they like! So they are not that dumb. Some issues like blasphemy cases (danish cartoonist) spark responses–fatwa or no fatwa. I find it ridiculous that there have been so many attacks on people around Rushdie that were involved in his publications.

“Why can’t Islamic scholars declare what could be the cases and punishments that fatwas could suggest?”
***Because Islam is complete code of life and nothing is out of its scope. Doing what you suggested is disagreeing with that. It is not easy.

“Why fatwas (suggestions) for Death punishment?? Should capital punishments and of course cases like rape, not be left for modern courts to decide??”
***It is stupid. I am not a big fan of asking for someone;s blood over blasphemy. This is what we have been talking in this particular entry, as you also noted. Death fatwas are rare but they should be stopped totally. Even if Islamic scholars agree over it, UBL will give a death fatwa against Rushdie. It is practically hard to totally stop it.

“Don’t you think Fatwas add complexity to already complex situation of blasphemy? Pakistan is a glaring example of it. I think its time to redefine fatwa in light of modern world requirements so as to achieve greater cohesion, integeratiion and peace. Let me know your thoughts.”
***When you hurt someone’s well founded beliefs there are troubles but death sentence is not the way.

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By: 777xxx777 http://blogs.reuters.com/pakistan/2010/11/20/sentenced-to-death-on-pakistans-minorities/comment-page-2/#comment-34206 Wed, 01 Dec 2010 05:20:04 +0000 http://blogs.reuters.com/pakistan/?p=6420#comment-34206 @Rehmat
“It is essentially a question/answer that helps the questioner in making RIGHT decisions according to Islam. Fatwas are just suggestions and therefore non-binding.”

You see there are two problems with this:

1. RIGHT decisions ACCORDING to Islam (or any other religion). Keyword is not ‘Right’ but ‘According’. Fundamentals of all religions are same but when it comes to finer details then religions may fall short of the requirements of modern world. Eg- Fatwa saying muslims should not deposit money in banks and should not invest in share markets.

2. Do you really think Fatwas remaining non-binding is possible on ground with people who might not be educated enough to differentiate between politically motivated fatwas (both of us know politically motivated fatwas are truth) and genuine ones? Don’t you think this weakness is being exploited too much to gain political ends? Why can’t Islamic scholars declare what could be the cases and punishments that fatwas could suggest? Why fatwas (suggestions) for Death punishment?? Should capital punishments and of course cases like rape, not be left for modern courts to decide??

Don’t you think Fatwas add complexity to already complex situation of blasphemy? Pakistan is a glaring example of it. I think its time to redefine fatwa in light of modern world requirements so as to achieve greater cohesion, integeratiion and peace. Let me know your thoughts.

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By: rehmat http://blogs.reuters.com/pakistan/2010/11/20/sentenced-to-death-on-pakistans-minorities/comment-page-2/#comment-34199 Tue, 30 Nov 2010 20:24:08 +0000 http://blogs.reuters.com/pakistan/?p=6420#comment-34199 @777
The concept of Fatwa in Islam makes total sense and is very useful. There are misperceptions about Fatwa based upon mostly well known death fatwas, such as against Salman Rushdie and Tasleema Nasrin. In fact Fatwa is issued on various issues, most of which are on how to live life according to Islamic values. Because Islam is a complete way of life, a Muslim who is in a dilemma about certain issue, can go to a Islamic scholar, who based upon his knowledge would give a fatwa on the subject. It is essentially a question/answer that helps the questioner in making RIGHT decisions according to Islam. Fatwas are just suggestions and therefore non-binding.

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