After Holbrooke, chances of political settlement in Afghanistan fall

December 15, 2010

holbrookeReading through some of the many thousands of words written about Richard Holbrooke,  for me two stories stood out in their ability to capture what will be lost with his death:

The first was in Rajiv Chandrasekaran’s obituary in the Washington Post:

“While beleaguered members of Mr. Holbrooke’s traveling party sought sleep on transcontinental flights, he usually would stay up late reading. On one trip to Pakistan, he padded to the forward of the cabin in his stocking feet to point out to a reporter a passage in Margaret Bourke-White’s memoirs of the time of India-Pakistan partition and independence. Bourke-White quoted Pakistani leader Muhammad Ali Jinnah telling her that Pakistan would have no problems with the Americans, because ‘they will always need us more than we need them.’ Mr. Holbrooke laughed, saying, ‘Nothing ever changes.’”

The second was in this 2009 profile by George Packer in The New Yorker.

Talking about Washington’s approach to Pakistan, Holbrooke said, “The relationship with Pakistan is so fraught with a history of disappointment on both sides… We can’t align our interests exactly, because they live in a different space, and their history is defined by their relationship with India. . . . The one thing I believe we can do with Pakistan is to try to reach a strategically symmetrical view on the danger posed by Al Qaeda and its allies. That’s the proximate strategic goal.” 

Put together, those comments cover a huge sweep of history and geography which explain why the war in Afghanistan is proving to be so intractable. While the military, and much of the media, focus on Afghanistan – since that is where western troops are deployed - Pakistan is fighting its own battle with India born out of the bloody partition of the subcontinent in 1947.  

Holbrooke was one of the few U.S. officials to have the intellectual range to fully grasp how far the problems of the Afghan war stretched back into history and out into the wider region, from Kabul to Kashmir, from Islamabad to Delhi, from 2010 to 1947. And though he was not allowed to include Kashmir in his mandate because of Indian objections, he nonetheless travelled frequently to India to seek ways of easing tensions with Pakistan. Without such an easing in tensions, Pakistan was never going to turn fully against the Afghan Taliban, believing it might need them to counter Indian influence in Afghanistan.

It is not at all clear whether the United States can find someone to replace him with the kind of intellectual range, experience and determination to untangle that knot.  According to Julian Borger at The Guardian there is already some talk that the task could instead be handed over to a new U.N. peace envoy, whose  job it would be to sound out the Taliban and Afghanistan’s neighbours on a political settlement. (At first glance, that would seem to be a non-starter if you wanted to keep India in the loop. Though India tolerates behind-the-scenes diplomacy by the United States and Britain in its relations with Pakistan, it would be expected to reject any U.N. interference which threatened to internationalise the Kashmir dispute.)

As Holbrooke’s comments on finding “a strategically symmetric view” with Pakistan on al Qaeda suggested, he also appeared to be focusing on the art of the possible.  This was neither the ”grand bargain” floated during President Barack Obama’s election campaign of seeking peace in Afghanistan by resolving the Kashmir dispute; not the other extreme of ramping up military operations into Pakistan itself. He may even have been making progress — Pakistan has been signalling of late a willingness to push for a settlement in Afghanistan which would force al Qaeda out of the region

For the moment, the question of who replaces him may be academic.  Despite a rising number of people calling for a political settlement of the Afghan war (likely to require multi-layered talks, from negotiations with Afghan insurgents to broader regional dialogue) for the time being the focus of U.S. strategy is still very much on the military campaign in Afghanistan.  Holbrooke had been somewhat sidelined in recent months, in part because of that military focus. But as and when efforts to reach a political settlement began to take shape, he would have come into his own.  No one is talking of utopian peace deals here, but of least bad options.  Holbrooke’s death probably makes the chances of eventually reaching that political settlement less likely. 

 

 

       

 

 

 

78 comments

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@Myra
I like your writing style. Mr holbrooke was a student of Henry Kissinger( still actively advising Mr Obama on foreign politics) and is part of the Clintonian group, which is currently running the State Dept. He outsmarted the late serbian leader and got the dayton accord, and this is going to be his legacy. Mr Kissinger on the other hand fell out with Pakistan long time ago. Hence Holbroke comments in the Plane!!

There are no political settlements on the horizon to the benefit of the USA. The good news is that AQ outfit is now in their home base now, in arabian desert which gives them stregnth. Wikileak tells us that they are very active in Yemen and the US administration is aware of it. The USA withdrawl would occur when they have no more dollars to feed the Karzai corporation.

Rex Minor

Posted by pakistan | Report as abusive

Myra,

I believe you are wrong. Not because Holbrooke wasn’t going going to be a big factor in any peace negotiations – indeed Holbrooke was a towering figure and would have been a key part of any deal.

The problem is that we have structural issues that preclude any negotiated agreement. The bare minimum “strategically symmetric view” that Holbrooke talks about regarding Al Qaeda and Pakistan is simply not there.

Sure, Pakistan has no interest to see Al Qaeda thrive in its backyard, but its dislike of Al Qaeda does not extend to efforts against the Haqqani group or the Punjabi elements that Pakistan’s Generals see as key elements of power projection. The structural issue here is that these same groups are the ones who are most closely intertwined with Al Qaeda and any efforts to push out or eliminate Al Qaeda from the region will require acting against the Haqqanis/Punjabi groups. THAT would be a bridge too far for Pakistan.

This is why you find Pakistani representatives tongue tied or deflect questions when asked how exactly they plan to push out Al Qaeda or how they plan to get the Haqqanis to disown Al Qaeda.

In other words, a negotiated settlement along the lines of what Ambassador Holbrooke visualized, is simply not possible.

What is almost inevitable is a US and NATO faceoff with Pakistan. If we are lucky, the “come to Jesus” moment will happen before the next 9/11.

If not, it will get ugly for all parties.

Posted by SilverSw0rd | Report as abusive

[...] This post was mentioned on Twitter by News of Pakistan, Keith Arthur Davison and Nusrat Zoha, Pakistan Now Never. Pakistan Now Never said: After Holbrooke, chances of political settlement in Afghanistan fall http://dlvr.it/BPKys [...]

Al Qaeda in the Arabian Peninsula is a sub-branch of the main entity, which is still in Pakistan.

Posted by SilverSw0rd | Report as abusive

This whole thing will end with World War III. Just like Nazi/Aryan power was crushed by a bloody world war, Islamic fundamentalism and the militancy that emanates from it will face its moment of truth through yet another Armageddon. I saw photograph of that young man who blew himself up in Sweden. Such a handsome man, full of youth and promise got inspired by wrong ideology and warped logic, simply wasted his life away. I can bet there are thousands of others just like him ready to jump off the edge and take others with them. Any solution will only be a temporary stop gap until the next shock wave hits. Al Qaeda has become a cult that is spreading across the globe fast. It has begun to spread into Europe and the USA as well. It is only a matter of time before these countries are fatigued by incessant bombardment of suicide missions. They have disturbed an ant hill and ants are proliferating. It is not going to end without massive level of violence and destruction. Holbrooke is a lucky man. In his life time he saw a settlement in Yugoslavia that ended a bitter war. Now he is gone. Probably he knew that the only settlement that is about come is by complete destruction. He did not want to be sitting in the middle of it. A great statesman died and it is a great loss to the world of diplomacy.

Posted by KPSingh01 | Report as abusive

KPS

“This whole thing will end with World War III.”

***Come on KPSingh. This is not going to be so easy. This is going to be worse. The slow death over decades, due to past bad choices and yet-to-come even worse ones.

Posted by rehmat | Report as abusive

May His soul rest in peace!

Posted by rehmat | Report as abusive

[...] the original: After Holbrooke, chances of political settlement in Afghanistan … Share and [...]

RE Holbrooke’s death and Pakistanvs Afghanistan vs India
and Kashmir
His death is an obvious tragedy;but he was trying to solve a multivariable systems equation problem which has no practical solution except endless wars which will end with a nuclear war between India and Pakistan(enriched by by Iranian bombs)
EQ1 1.How does one deal with tribal nation states e.g Afghanistan with no infrastructure;propped up by an American government which has no end game e.g limitedto destructionut or containment of Al Quaeda-the Taleban are just tribal gangsters who cares of they overthrow the corrupt Karzai regime-What does the US lose strategically
EQ 2.Pakistan is a nuclear power run by Muslims and they wants control over Kashmir for religious and economic reasons
Eq3 Indian is an atomic power predominantly run by ethnic Hindus (with large minority of Muslims) who wants control over Kashmir for economic reasons wrapped in false nationalism
Strategy India and Pakistan are like tectonic plates on an inevitable collission;let them collide.It will save us trillions and the tidal wave will take care of Afghanistan

Posted by ngc121629 | Report as abusive

RIP. Richard Holbrook, his final words to his Pakistani surgeon before being sedated for surgery were ‘you’ve got to stop this war in Afghanistan.’ A peacemaker.

And it is true the conflict with India continues, here is an article that appeared on the PR website of Pakistan Army recently:

Army as an institution
http://www.ispr.gov.pk/front/main.asp?o= t-article&id=19

It says RAW agents are active in Sindh and Baluchistan, Indian focus is to discredit Pakistan Army, dismantle it, India’s objective of destroying Pakistan Army remains intact. Since Pakistan Army is a binding force of Pakistan, any attempt to destroy Pakistan Army means to destroy Pakistan. It calls for patriotism, unity and sectarian harmony. It sums up nicely and tells that the conflict with India very much continues.

India must come clean and declare it has no nefarious intentions. Otherwise there can be no peace.

Posted by Umairpk | Report as abusive

The ISPR has less credibility than the Iraqi information minister “Baghdad Bob”

Posted by SilverSw0rd | Report as abusive

Umairpk: “It says RAW agents are active in Sindh and Baluchistan, Indian focus is to discredit Pakistan Army, dismantle it, India’s objective of destroying Pakistan Army remains intact. Since Pakistan Army is a binding force of Pakistan, any attempt to destroy Pakistan Army means to destroy Pakistan. It calls for patriotism, unity and sectarian harmony. It sums up nicely and tells that the conflict with India very much continues.

India must come clean and declare it has no nefarious intentions. Otherwise there can be no peace.”

Like the evidence that emerged after the Mumbai attacks that exposed the source of the problem emanating from Pakistan, your ISI has to come up with concrete evidence that is supported by authentic sources to show RAW involvement in Balochistan.

Pakistan cannot accuse India of trying to split up Balochistan while it has worked to split up Khalistan and Kashmir from India.

You are giving too much credit to the RAW which does not compare anywhere with the CIA trained ISI. RAW has become like the KGB of the past – gathering intelligence for national interest. Unlike the ISI, today’s RAW cannot stage proxy wars, assassinations etc. During the 1970s and 1980s, RAW was more powerful. RAW did not help thwart the Mumbai attacks. Its budget has been restricted. Therefore the burden is on your military to prove that RAW is out to get Pakistan.

And like you have been proudly claiming, you are nuclear powered. Why should your country worry about India or its RAW? You don’t even need soldiers manning your Eastern borders. India is a bogeyman set up by your military to hold on to power, directly or otherwise.

You are entitled to salute your soldiers and the generals. But you can always do that without having an imagined enemy.

Posted by KPSingh01 | Report as abusive

I find it difficult to believe that his tragic death will lead to a vacuum. It will be difficuklt to replace him, for sure. No one is indespensible and I am sure with his foresight, he himself has made sure that there will be continuity.

Posted by DaraIndia | Report as abusive

Umair,

“India must come clean and declare it has no nefarious intentions. Otherwise there can be no peace.”.

Just how many times do you want India to keep repeating this?

Does it have to give an affidavit signed by the President, Prime Minister and the whole cabinet and submit it to the Pakistani Supreme court and Chief of Army with copies to the heads of all Nations? Umair, you and the Pakistani Army will still not believe it.

I think it is about time Pakistan realised that peace with India is also in its own interest. Pakistan needs peace more than India in fact if it is to prosper. Till Pakistan realises that simple fact there really is no chance of peace.

Posted by DaraIndia | Report as abusive

Umair

What do you think ISPR will say about India and RAW?

“India must come clean and declare it has no nefarious intentions. Otherwise there can be no peace.”
***This is the height of desperation. Now that ISPR said a word about India, do you think RAW should make a statement that ISPR is right. Is that how it works in your book?

I read the article you posted at ISPR and the very 1st line says “Pakistan was a land of pure, created by Jinnah, with the purpose of providing the Muslims of the subcontinent a land……” You know what? It makes me sick when I think of Jinnah, a smart lawyer with poor foresight backed by the judge and jury who could not see that half the Muslims will remain in India and the remaining will migrate bathed in blood. Forget about Muslims of the sub-continent Jinnah did not care a bit about them, if you look at his actions. Jinnah’s contradictory speeches have so much to offer that his statements have been used by people with diametrical opposite views. In my opinion, he was a secular, moderate who changed his views with time which in hindsight sound empty and got progressively un-Jinnah, hence the contradictory statements. Pakistan is the product of an angry Jinnah.

Posted by rehmat | Report as abusive

@Umair
I do not want to be rude, but Pakistan military performance has so far not been satisfactory. They need to restructure it to become a national army and must never be used against its citizens. Their major crime is to become the extended arm of the USA. The latter being organised with conceit, has lost them also the credibility among friends and foes. It would seem from the cable network that a number of groups made of ordinary citizens across the Pashtoon territory are going after the uniformed people on streets, in police stations and military cantonments. Needless to say that these groups are not causing serious casualties but are restricting the operations of the military and the police. Indian military is not structuraly different, same colonial style, but so far they have avoided to suppress the majority hindu citizens. They have been merciless against minoprities, namely Sikh and muslim citizens as well as defended the country against Pakistan. This is good enough for the majority hindu population.

It is not a secret that pakistan has nuclear equiped rockets which can simultaneously reach several cities apart from each other. On the other hand Pakistan military no longer has the option to withdraw or surrender in their next battle with Indian military. Pakistan Govt. should therefore remove the emotional ourbursts or threatning noises even in private conversations and adopt a more realistic and rational approach. I do not believe that a nuclear war can be justified against another country under any circumstances. remember even the Ummah could mot help Pakistan in uch an event.

My proposal would be to break off diplomatic relations with India until the resolution of their disputes. Pakistan need leaders with a vision based on self reliance and to achieve peace in the region and not make it a free terrain where the Americans and the NATO can test their new weaponry. Mr holbrooke was the wrong person for the wrong job. He was a bluffer, backed by the USA power, but did not have the expertise to handle Pakistan with nuclear force.

Rex Minor

Posted by pakistan | Report as abusive

PS
Henry Kissinger is the expert on nuclear countries. Watch this guy, he has a class matching George W. There are those who accuse him for war crimes.

Posted by pakistan | Report as abusive

Silversword:
“The ISPR has less credibility than the Iraqi information minister “Baghdad Bob””

-Looking at the profile of Director General ISPR I would give him a lot more credibility. Pak Army is on par with any modern military of today.

KPSingh:
“You are entitled to salute your soldiers and the generals. But you can always do that without having an imagined enemy.”

-I don’t say our Generals are angels, when leaked US embassy cables say that the Army is billing the US $26 million for barbed wire, or COAS pleading the US that the impression that Pak Army is rented should be avoided. I also think where there is a need to correct things action should be taken. but I have no doubt in the good faith, good intention, patriotism and professionalism of the Army, it is simply unquestionable. This is one institution which can sacrifice everything for Pakistan.

Rehmat:
“It makes me sick when I think of Jinnah, a smart lawyer with poor foresight backed by the judge and jury who could not see that half the Muslims will remain in India and the remaining will migrate bathed in blood. ”

-These are some pretty emotional strong words, I belong to a family which was part of British India which later became Pakistan. In other words we did not migrate from India. Really not sure how Indians think of Jinnah, we will have to step back into history to look if Jinnah was good or bad. I think India Pakistan relationship is same is Pakistan-Bangladesh. Pakistan won independence from India (or British?) Bangladesh won independence from Pakistan.

Posted by Umairpk | Report as abusive

Dara:”Just how many times do you want India to keep repeating this? Does it have to give an affidavit signed by the President, Prime Minister and the whole cabinet and submit it to the Pakistani Supreme court and Chief of Army with copies to the heads of all Nations? Umair, you and the Pakistani Army will still not believe it. I think it is about time Pakistan realised that peace with India is also in its own interest. Pakistan needs peace more than India in fact if it is to prosper. Till Pakistan realises that simple fact there really is no chance of peace.”

-Indeed, peace is in everyones interest. Pakistan’s Military would also be mindful that an arms state and perpetual state of conflict with India is unsustainable since Pakistan would not be able to keep up due to economic pressures. However, there is certainly something bothering the Pakistan military. Just as after 1971 war, Pakistan participated in Soveit Afghan war, ISI began strong, Pakistan transformed itself into a country that become hostile to India within a decade with nuclear weapons, covert operations through ISI. Analysts say that in recent years there has been a shift in strategic thinking. For the first time ever the ISI has given its assessment that internal militant threat posed by militant groups has been greater than one posed by India. Gradually we must get there and India must do all it can to ensure it is not upto anything in Baluchistan or fomenting nationalism there. No more repeat of 1971, nor more back stabing.

Rex:
“Pakistan military no longer has the option to withdraw or surrender in their next battle with Indian military.”
Pakistan Govt. should therefore remove the emotional ourbursts or threatning noises even in private conversations and adopt a more realistic and rational approach. I do not believe that a nuclear war can be justified against another country under any circumstances.”

-Agreed, and in 2008 Pakistan showed restraint, and willingness to work for joint investigation even when India talked of surgical strikes. I think with the passage of time both countries should move to more peaceful means to settle the disputes. In this age of modern warfare, all wars are total wars bringing total destruction leaving with no option but to peaceful talks to settle disputes. If Pakistan breaks off diplomatic relations with India, rapproachment is not possible. Just as in Cold war, US and USSR kept in touch and worked together to reduce tnesions and avoid any catastrophe. In absence of DGMO- (Director General Military Operations) hotline, or flag meetings etc there is greater chance of misunderstaning between two countries. For example both countries have limit for aircraft coming close to each other airspace and to inform in advance for missile tests etc. Pakistan can try the Turkish approach to Israel, diplomatic and security ties with India and if things get worse, break off and limit the relations.

Posted by Umairpk | Report as abusive

Rehmat:’You know what? It makes me sick when I think of Jinnah, a smart lawyer with poor foresight backed by the judge and jury who could not see that half the Muslims will remain in India and the remaining will migrate bathed in blood. Forget about Muslims of the sub-continent Jinnah did not care a bit about them, if you look at his actions. Jinnah’s contradictory speeches have so much to offer that his statements have been used by people with diametrical opposite views. In my opinion, he was a secular, moderate who changed his views with time which in hindsight sound empty and got progressively un-Jinnah, hence the contradictory statements. Pakistan is the product of an angry Jinnah.”

-Rehmat, you are an Indian Muslim, ok. Have you read the book:

http://www.amazon.com/Jinnah-Partition-I ndependence-Jaswant-Singh/dp/0195479270/ ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=129243684 8&sr=1-1

I quote a reader review:
“Mohammed Ali Jinnah is painted as the villain of India’s partition in 1947, the man who stabbed the Indians in the back and walked away with a fifth of the ancient country’s landmass. He’s reviled as the traitor who created Pakistan, which has ever since been a festering wound in India’s nationhood. But Jaswant Singh, an aristocratic former Indian foreign minister, shows there were several players more culpable – the British, the Congress Party leaders such as M.K. Gandhi, and Muslim leaders carrying the traits of today’s Islamic terrorists. Look at it this way: when Kashmir (which is 90% Muslim) finds it impossible to secede from India, how could Muslims who comprised only 24% of undivided India have demanded Pakistan? The demand for Pakistan was made by elements that Gandhi encouraged and Jinnah initially abhorred. The responsibility for India’s vivisection lies with the Congress and British, not with Jinnah.”

Right wing BJP Jaswant Singh defending Jinnah?

Posted by Umairpk | Report as abusive

@Umairpk
Well said. Let us hope that the so called domestic militants do not become the achiles heal for Pakistan. Pakistan military suffered defeats because of Pakistan domestic problems. I can understand your feelings for the military if your family has a military background.

The war scenario between USSR and the USA is adifferent story and can not be compared to India and Pakistan drama though the latter is more dangerous.

Pakistan needs to be straightforward and honest in its dealings with India, the great neighbour. I know that Indians are also master of conceit and trickery but they have always been consistent. The military leaders of your country are not a good match for the seasoned Indian politicians! But this is another story.

Rex Minor

Posted by pakistan | Report as abusive

Umairpk: “I have no doubt in the good faith, good intention, patriotism and professionalism of the Army, it is simply unquestionable. This is one institution which can sacrifice everything for Pakistan”

I understand your sentiments and loyalties to your military which seems to define your very nation.

India has no means to prove that it is not involved in fomenting secession in Balochistan other than to say that it is not behind any of it. The burden is on the ISI to provide valid evidence which shows captured operatives or ammunition and other material evidence that originate from India.

These things can be fabricated too and intelligence agencies of the caliber of the ISI or CIA can create such evidences at will. Pakileaks that have surfaced recently have lowered the credibility of the ISI even further. When this is the case, ISI can claim whatever it wants and no one knows if they are true or not. It is entirely up to an individual like to swear your faith in such organizations. But it is not going to change the ground reality.

You cannot expect a whole nation to come around to follow your edict. India definitely is not going to do that. If Pakistan does not want normal relations with India, it does not matter to India. We do not need Pakistan. You people got a country of your own. And 6 decades have passed. We accept the current status and we have no further interest in Pakistan other than stopping its efforts to be an irritant to our existence and progress. Before you say it, Kashmir settlement is not going to bring that peace. It might make things worse for us.

ISI can claim whatever imagined illusions it wants, but it is not going to make any dent on India. If Pakistan sincerely wants to normalize relations with India, then the mindset and attitude have to change in Pakistani power circles first. From the Indian stand point we do see a deliberate effort to create and sustain further division between the two countries. I do not have to detail all of it, but every time when peace efforts were being made, elements from inside your ISI, military or non-state actor wings unleashed some form of an attack to derail everything. So the burden is on Pakistan to prove itself as a reliable and trustworthy nation for any long term relationship with India.

Posted by KPSingh01 | Report as abusive

Umair,

You are desperately hanging on to one book by an Indian right wing politician. The underlying reason why he wrote a controversial book was not because he was an admirer of Jinnah. He tried to come out of a political stagnation. No one cares for him. Many people worldwide get into controversial things to stay in the lime light. We have one Arundhati Roy who is an expert in this regard. Hopefully she will make Nobel prize worthless one day.

Coming to Jinnah – For you he is the father of your nation. For us, he was yet another politician like Jaswant Singh. There are lot of “leaders” like this in the sub-continent. They all have this incredible urge to be founders of something or heads of state. They have not gone away. We have plenty of them in India. Some have taken up ethnic or religious causes to round up support for their goals. The Shiv Sena in Mumbai is headed by a man who is no different from Jinnah or any such “leader”. Violence works to their advantage. Many politicians at the state level in India will put Robert Mugabe or Desmond Mobutu to shame. Some live like emperors with absolute power in their states. They have no clout outside their states. But inside, it is their territory. Then there are union leaders, Maoists, Imams etc who have their own power circles. On a given day, any of them can bring things to a stand still. They use this to gain favors.

When India was just an infant nation, there were many such leaders as well who wanted to form their own countries. In the southern peninsula, there was a Dravidian movement that wanted to form a nation for Dravidians. They courted Jinnah prior to India’s independence for his help in carving a nation for themselves. I have read about them from authors like MJ Akbar. They observed a day of mourning on the day India got its independence.

If India had splintered away at that time, these leaders would have turned their respective countries into absolute autocracies, ruled by their dynastic successors, waging wars against neighbors and keeping people under abject poverty and absolute control. In other words, we could have had many North Koreas around.

There are new “leaders” of this kind emerging all the time. What has stemmed their rise to absolute power is the maturation of Indian democracy. Slowly, over 6 decades, India has strengthened its bond across the nation. And Pakistan has helped a lot in this regard by being an enemy of India. Many of these leaders now realize that they can still be in control while being a part of the democratic process. They get to gain more this way than have their own militaries and wars.

Jinnah was no different from these leaders. When things did not go in his favor, Jinnah and his supporters launched the direct action which resulted in the deaths of millions of Muslims, Hindus, Sikhs and other minorities, displacement of people, separation of families and a lot of agony and pain. The leaders I have mentioned above are capable of unleashing the same thing on the general population and getting what they want. They do not think of the long term effects of their passionate desires. Pakistan and India have existed side by side with the fire of that hatred during partition only growing with time. There was no need for any of this.

Pakistan has not achieved anything great by having a separate nation for Muslims. Its people have learned to blame others for all their ills, while the country that was created for Muslims, has become a country for an elite military cartel. Religion is now used as a weapon to defend the power hold.

Whatever happened, happened. There is no use going back on the damages done. At least we can look at how to co-exist in the future without relying on past memories. Whatever the future of Pakistan might be, it is entirely on the hands of its leaders and people. Having seen enough selfish leaders, to us, Jinnah does not stand out as any great leader who sacrificed anything for people.

He might have been shrewd, intelligent etc. But he was a selfish, self serving politician who manipulated the emotions and events to his advantage. He got his life time ambition fulfilled and died a happy man as a head of state. But his legacy has not made things any better for the Muslims in the nation he created or for the people of South Asia. Only hatred is lingering. Such was his legacy.

Posted by KPSingh01 | Report as abusive

Jinnah and related discussions are irrelevant to this topic, but it is not surprising that Pakistani posters tend to muddle the issue by saying “India, Kashmeeer, RAAAW etc.”

Posted by SilverSw0rd | Report as abusive

Umair

Yes Dear, they are strong words and I mean them.

Thanks for the link! YES, I have read the book.

I was responding to the article you posted. My last sentence tells my views about Jinnah. He was a nice guy, a secular and moderate. “WAS”! He could have stayed that way. There are always issues. Was he expecting Utopia once Brits left? I am not painting others as innocent at all. It was Jinnnah who walked away with Pakistan so he will take the major blame.

Jaswant Singh is giving his views which he is welcome to. So did Advani about Jinnah.

Only 24% Muslims were to there in undivided India? That’s a huge if you know the rate at which we reproduce. Sorry to be blunt but that is the truth.

I do not expect you to understand what I am saying as you mentioned your family did not move. There are some basic facts that Pakistanis, who were present on the other side of the border and did not have to migrate, have wrong. We will discuss that later in relevant entry.

Enough of it.

____________________________________

Back to the topic, I do not think Holbrooke’s absence will make a huge difference. His views might be brilliant but no one was going to listen to him.

Posted by rehmat | Report as abusive

Umairpk: “I have no doubt in the good faith, good intention, patriotism and professionalism of the Army, it is simply unquestionable. This is one institution which can sacrifice everything for Pakistan”

I would really like to know, what do you think about the generals of the Pakistani army who have ruled Pakistan at some point, specifically Ayub Khan, Yahya Khan, Zia-ul-Haq & Musharraf? Do you think they have been good for Pakistan?

Posted by Mortal1 | Report as abusive

KP Singh said:

> Many politicians at the state level in India will put Robert Mugabe or Desmond Mobutu to shame.

That would be Mobutu Sese Seko. Desmond Tutu is a South African priest and the polar opposite of Mobutu.

Regards,
Ganesh Prasad

Posted by prasadgc | Report as abusive

Ganesh,

Thanks for the correction. Somehow I mixed up Desmond Tutu and Mobutu.

Posted by KPSingh01 | Report as abusive

rehmat: “I do not think Holbrooke’s absence will make a huge difference. His views might be brilliant but no one was going to listen to him.”

Holbrooke had a tough time with Lute in Obama cabinet. He was there mainly because of Hillary Clinton. He might have become the secretary of state if Hillary had become President.

I think Hobrooke was there to manage the negotiations if and when they were meant to happen. There could have been many scenarios – a splintered Af-Pak, splintered Afghanistan, surrender of Al Qaeda, peace settlement with the Taliban etc. He is known to be a tough negotiator. Initially he was brought in to broker a much broader deal – that of settling Kashmir dispute between India and Pakistan as a part of the mission. That goal was cut off immediately seeing the Indian sentiments which the American strategists are beginning to value. Kashmir issue was dropped from the agenda, much to Pakistan’s dislike, and Pakistan was clubbed with Afghanistan as being part of the problem. Holbrooke maintained a delicate balance when questioned about Kashmir. He knew that it was too difficult to achieve such a settlement where India had nothing to gain or lose. It was clear that India was not part of the Af-Pak problem. With limited time, the Obama strategists decided to focus on the core issue first. Holbrooke was right in the middle of all these just to be ready for any settlements that would emerge at any time.

Posted by KPSingh01 | Report as abusive

Umair,

I agree in general with what you have said this time. Peace has to be a two way need and both need to do their bit.

A few words though about your views on India’s role in Baluchistan. Please recollect India has denied it again and again – to no avail. India has even committed to discussing Pakistan’s fears over Baluchistan – nothing done on that front. More importantly, India is still waiting for the dossier Rehman Mallik promised to send a year ago to India. What happened? We were also told by Qureshi, I think, that proof had been given to the US which the US denied! Musharraf recently came out with another outlandish statement of how he had provided a dossier or proof or something like that to the international community, but he didnt give it to India!! Reminds me of the old saying – if you repeat a lie often enough you start believing it yourself.

Incidentally, I have views on Jinnah and Nehru which may be of interest to you. Will wait for an opportune post.

Posted by DaraIndia | Report as abusive

@Umair
Be fair, the greatest achievement of Mr Jinnah was to create a separate home for the Indian muslims, where, majority muslim states were able to live independently and without being molested or coerced by the non muslim majority central Govt. The students of history would view his performance and achievements in the time he lived.

Remember India as such was never a united country, per say, in its history. This was the land of maharajas and sultans who lived in luxury in individual pockets and jurisdictions at the expense of hard working farmers and peasants.

No one should blame him for what happened in the sub-continent after partition and what is happening to date.
One people, one country and one leader was the slogan in germany before ww2 and this enabled them to become the most powerful country of the world. And then one tactical mistake and they lost the war. Can you imagine their performance after the ww2, the most discipline people in the world becoming once again the power house of Europe and sercond to none in productivity and indusrtial performance, one people, one country and one leader. Where are the Institutions and universities where people can complete their studies devoid of colonial structures?

Rex Minor

PS pakistan foreign minister hobbies include reading and watching TV? I would dismiss the guy and remove the foreign mionister position.

Posted by pakistan | Report as abusive

Cave Mullah: “the greatest achievement of Mr Jinnah was to create a separate home for the Indian muslims, where, majority muslim states were able to live independently and without being molested or coerced by the non muslim majority central Govt.”

It is all right if Jinnah is great to a group of people. Hitler, Bin Laden etc also have their admirers and believers. I will leave it at that. However, the only point I disagree with is about Indian Muslims separated so that they could live unmolested by majority central govt.

That makes no sense. India has a Muslim population that is almost equal in number to that in Pakistan and India. There is no such thing as a majority population in India. This is because there are majorities based on different categories – caste (majority of low caste Hindus), language (majority are Hindi speakers), class (majority are poor), literacy (majority are illiterate), profession (majority are farmers and peasants), religion (Hindu is a fuzzy term. From some definitions, any religion native to India is Hindu. Buddhism, my religion etc are Indian religions. The term Hindu is equivalent to Indian).

Muslims in India are also divided along the same lines as above. When that is the case, there is no homogeneous group called Muslims in India. For that matter, it is the case in Pakistan as well. Having gotten a wonder nation called Pakistan, Bengali Muslims could not live under the majority Punjabi Muslims. Now Pashtoons will start pushing for their own nation. Balochis want nothing to do with Pakistan. So even unity under the Islamic banner is a political tool that Jinnah used. If he was a hard core Mullah like you, I can at least understand his principles and goals. He was a pork eating, chain smoking, alcohol consuming, westernized politician. The only thing Muslim about him is his name. Beyond that, he was more Western than Westerners themselves.

It makes no sense to us that a man like Jinnah, described above, can champion the cause for Muslims in India. This is like Pakistanis crying for Kashmiri freedom and rights after having slaughtered Bengali Muslims.

Most Muslims in India are doing all right at whatever level they are at. No one is molesting them. Most top film actors in India come from the Muslim community. People flock to see their movies without thinking about religion at every step.

Enough said.

Posted by KPSingh01 | Report as abusive

Rex Moron,

Earlier, you were an authority on Pashtuns, then Germans, then Pakistanis & now on Indian muslims? Stop deluding yourself because the ONLY catagory of people you represent, are the bigoted ignoramuses who beleive that they know everything, when they actually know nothing. We, Indians are what we are & we neither have an inferiority complex & nor a superiority complex. The world knows & appreciates what we are & we certainly don’t need a stamp of approval from idiots like you. Your repeated swipes at the Indian education system speaks volumes of your ignorance because that’s the system which is producing most number of doctors, engineers, analysts & scientists in the world, today.

Posted by Mortal1 | Report as abusive

KPSingh

Thanks for your post. Point is Af-PAk is a different ball game not than the one Holbrooke got fame for.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

““the greatest achievement of Mr Jinnah was to create a separate home for the Indian muslims, where, majority muslim states were able to live independently and without being molested or coerced by the non muslim majority central Govt.”
***Add “so that they slit each others throats.”

Their hangover of looking for differences among communities is not over yet. This guy has no effing idea that that those who do not learn to co-exist stop existing.

Posted by rehmat | Report as abusive

“those who do not learn to co-exist stop existing”
Posted by rehmat

well said!

Posted by Mortal1 | Report as abusive

@Umair: Awaiting your response to my question regarding ex-Pak generals. C’mon buddy, put that high speed DSL of yours, to work.

Posted by Mortal1 | Report as abusive

interesting peice regarding distorted history being taught to Pakistani children:

http://www.dawn.com/2010/12/16/in-depth- what-students-are-being-taught-about-the -separation-of-east-pakistan.html

Posted by Mortal1 | Report as abusive

Mortal:
Gen. Ayub- was a good guy. His speech during 1965 war united the entire country and Pakistan fought the war to a draw. Though he imposed the first martial law in the country but I don’t blame him, the circumstances were beyond his control, he did what was necessary to do.
Gen. Yahya, a drunkard, idiot who lost East Pakistan. A shiite. I don’t have much words of him.
Gen. Zia- A military strong man, a martial law administrtor. Again his positive side was fast track development of Pakistan’s nuclear capability and unfaltering support to Mujahideen and covert warfare against the Soviet Union. One of his officers Brig. Yousaf of ISI was the first military officer after world war 2 whose troops undertook armed attacks inside the territory of Soviet Union. Very shrewd and clever, you couldnt take the courtesy and smile of this guy and could be easily fooled by it.
Gen. Musharraf- when he came to visit us in College as the COAS before taking over I didnt find him charming. Just an average guy, but clever. He never compromised on handing over AQ Khan to anyone outside, switch gears on war on terror etc. All in all a cleverer guy among all, he planned his retirement in advance. Though messed up in later years, but still I give him some credit.
One thing common among all of them, they did whatever good they could do for Pakistan. But i think that is history now, with little over two years time first time in the history of Pakistan a transition will happen when during next general elections the power transfer will take place. Pakistan has seen a lot of experimentation by the generals, while Zia was Islamic minded, Musharraf was a secular opposite.

If you into reading read:
Crossed Swords: Pakistan, Its Army, and the Wars Within
Author: Shuja Nawaz -Brother of former COAS Gen. Asif Nawaz

http://www.amazon.com/Crossed-Swords-Pak istan-Within-Paperbacks/dp/0195476972/re f=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1292555215& sr=8-1

Since Pakistan’s inception, the country had to rely again and again on the Army repeatedly.

Posted by Umairpk | Report as abusive

How many settlements one needs in that part of the world to be decided by foreigners? Why should the Indian bloggers be interested to pour in their venom and grievences against Pakistani Govt. and its people, when the article is concerned with the so called political settlement to facilitate the withdrawl of the American invaders from the Hindukush mountains. The only people who have throughout history struggled to maintain their freedom and independence from the foreign invaders are the Pashtoons, who have lived for centuries in the triangular shaped land sorrounded by bare and barren mountains covering an area of roughly 250,000 sq. miles . Starting from Dir in the north, this triangle runs along the Indus(not the NY hudson river) takes a western turn south of Dera Ismail Khan, and embraces within its fold Loralai,Quetta, Pishin, chaman and Qandhar and extends upto Herat. This land includes the major portion of today’s Pakhtoonkhwa, a part of Quetta Division of Baluchistan and more than three fourth of Afghanistan. In this triangular shaped , hilly country divided between Afghanistan and Pakistan lives the world’s largest group of tribesmen numbering over 60 million variously called Afghans, Pashtoons, pakhtoons or Pathans.
They have defeated many and routed many, the last one in memory were the Brits and the Soviet Union. Today there are americans, the most unpopular Nation in the world, accompanied by its rag tag allies(most of them defeated in ww2)all trying to suppress and oppress the Pashtoon Nation by force or coersion. The Imperialist USA which has througout its history used conceit and belied to conquer and colonise other Nations, says Mr Chavez, the Venezuelan President, has set up its residence as an uninvited guest near the capital of Afghanistan.

The ultimate goal of the invader is to set up a military presence against China? Their former military base in Peshawar, Pakistan is no longer available to them.

Indian bloggers should know that there never was a united India ever in their history. India has always had a mixture of colourful but restless people of dozens of ethnic and cultural backgrounds, hard working farmers and blood thirsty land lords, maharajas and sultans all of them more loyal to their faiths and traditions. Even the Moghul Kings and the Brits had to control the masses with the help of maharajas and sultans, who were used to the life style which was somewhat similar to Lords and Barons of Europe.
indian people as such have never asked to be independen as a whole people. How can any one make a nation out of them? What is the ingredient to be one people, one nation? Hate of others, Pakistan and China, or the economic needs are very weak for Nation building.
Decolonisation process started after the ww2 and the independence was only possible by the religion divide, a separate land for muslims and the other piece for non muslims. Sikhs decided to stay with hindu majority and left their ancestoral and holy places in Pakistan. The subcontinent was engulfed with violence, looting and killings after the partition and not during the colonial period. Sikhs were given the violent treatment after the independence making them homeless and asylum seekers in most parts of the world. Most of the Kashmiri muslim population came to Britain as refugees and were made homeless after the independence. As of today thousands and thousands of them have been killed and neither Pakistan, nor the UNO are in a position to free these people from the military occupation of their land.
Bengalis of the former East Pakistan, the intellectual asset of Pakistan, left the union and became a separate land.
A democracy kept by the despecable caste system and with the use of military force? Human rights are not understood, love for the next one is not in their teachings or upbringing.
Yours is a pathetic story. No one in Europe understands your ambitions or your foreign policies. no one here differentiates between Indians and Pakistanis. They all speak english language and are reluctant to integrate with the western cultures. There are solutions for becoming a civilised and great Nation, but the calibre of leadership is missing in the subcontinent.

The afghan story is of more interest and has more geostrategic outcome. I salute the Afghans or Pashtoons whatever, one prefers to call them. They have kept theit traditions, have robbed the Americans of their wealth and yet been able to defend their independence.

India and Pakistan can take a lesson from their simple and straightforward independence urge, namely love for the family and the tribe.

Rex Minor

Posted by pakistan | Report as abusive

Dara

On Baluchistan, the dissident leaders like Brahamdagh Bugti is in exile in Kabul and gets weapons from RAW, and what is the need of an Indian consulate in Southern Afghanistan? Under diplomatic cover it seems something else is going on. When intelligence agencies carry out covert operations they usually do not leave a trail behind. I am sure Pakistan will provide the proofs at the right time. On Jinnah and Nehru please post soon. Thanks

Posted by Umairpk | Report as abusive

Umairpk: “the dissident leaders like Brahamdagh Bugti is in exile in Kabul and gets weapons from RAW, and what is the need of an Indian consulate in Southern Afghanistan? Under diplomatic cover it seems something else is going on. When intelligence agencies carry out covert operations they usually do not leave a trail behind. I am sure Pakistan will provide the proofs at the right time. ”

If your country is made up of defenseless peaceful people who valued human rights, freedom, non-violence etc, you can surely complain if your neighboring country is trying to sabotage peaceful existence, you have every right to complain and the world will support you.

ISI is not a Buddhist monastery. India’s most wanted criminal Dawood Ibrahim is living in Karachi under ISI protection. His daughter is married to Javed Miandad’s son (or the other way around). When that is the case why should you whine about Bughti hiding in Afghanistan?

ISI masterminding several incursions into India, including the latest Mumbai attacks are open secrets. Then why are you complaining about RAW? Should Pakistan be the only one sabotaging others? If you throw stones at others’ windows, expect to get some back on yours.

The masterminds of Mumbai attacks are freely roaming around in Pakistan. India has about four consulates in Afghanistan. I am sure they have intelligence gathering going on in those consulates. No consulate in this world is free of this activity. All diplomats engage in clandestine operations.

India’s presence in terms of a small staff inside four consulates should not give you so much sleepless nights. India, the country itself is right next your country. What is next? Will you demand that India move a thousand miles more to the East?

Your country is not made up of angels. Therefore you lose the legitimacy to cry wolf when your country’s masters are made up of wolf clans themselves.

Posted by KPSingh01 | Report as abusive

Cave Mullah: “They all speak english language and are reluctant to integrate with the western cultures”

Look who is talking!

Posted by KPSingh01 | Report as abusive

All Indian posters are urgently needed to defend Bharti values as practiced in Kashmir.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/dec  /16/wikileaks-cables-indian-torture-kas hmir

Posted by Matrixx | Report as abusive

@Matrixx
Thank you! It simply means that the torture expert western country has also been playing its role as a referee in the torture game. Perhaps harsh treatments are not recognised as tortures in underdeveloped countries. What did they expect, a luxry style gitmo in Kashmir.

Rex Minor

PS My advice to Indian sympathisers on this blog. Take a break for at least four weeks while this info, right or wrong, blöws away. No one can prove this allegation unless he has been in India?

Posted by pakistan | Report as abusive

@Matrixx
Most of it must be true and shameful as well. Thanks for sharing the link.

Posted by 777xxx777 | Report as abusive

Torture by Indian police and military is not confined to Kashmir alone. Guardian has managed to selectively project Kashmir. All across South Asia, the Middle East, China, Russia, and in pretty much every country other than some self proclaimed Western nations on human rights, torture as a part of investigation is the norm. It is unfortunate. But that is the reality. Some of these ‘liberal’ Western nations like UK are accused of out sourcing torture to other countries where it is accepted.

Police brutality has to be universally condemned. But then there are Ajmal Kasabs who need special treatment.

Posted by KPSingh01 | Report as abusive

I am really not surprised reading this report. My only worthwhile comment on this is that this is happening not just in Kashmir, the police in India are notorious for their crude techniques and have become a law unto themselves because no political leadership has cared to keep them in check. Of course this also serves their own political purpose.

If Indian democracy fails eventually, not that it is any way even close to failing, even thought there are some here desperately praying and hoping it does, it would be because of the fact that the political leadership has allowed every democratic institution to be subverted for cheap short term gains. The police is the best example of that.

Posted by DaraIndia | Report as abusive

After Guardian, here is another one from Financial Times

Gandhi warns of Hindu threat in India

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/c49d253e-09bd- 11e0-8b29-00144feabdc0.html#axzz18OBrzjf 7


Please respect FT.com’s ts&cs and copyright policy which allow you to: share links; copy content for personal use; & redistribute limited extracts. Email ftsales.support@ft.com to buy additional rights or use this link to reference the article – http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/c49d253e-09bd- 11e0-8b29-00144feabdc0.html#ixzz18ODtuYL B

Mr Gandhi’s comments, made in response to a question from the US ambassador on the Pakistani-based Lashkar-e-Taiba militant group, referred to religious tension created by more extreme BJP leaders, according to the cable released by WikiLeaks and published on Friday by Britain’s Guardian newspaper.

Mr Gandhi said there was evidence of some support for the LeT among Indian Muslims, the ambassador wrote, according to the cable.

“However, [Mr] Gandhi warned, the bigger threat may be the growth of radicalised Hindu groups, which create religious tensions and political confrontations with the Muslim community,” Mr Roemer wrote.”

Posted by Umairpk | Report as abusive

Really interesting responses.
“Torture by Indian police and military is not confined to Kashmir alone.”
“All across South Asia, the Middle East, China, Russia, and in pretty much every country other than some self proclaimed Western nations on human rights, torture as a part of investigation is the norm.”
So what it means is that it normal and systematic all over India. Now India being proud democracy, the people love to be tortured otherwise such practices would not persist. It also implies that torture is part of the value set.
The real question is why the population has not rebelled in a massive insurgency? My thinking is that most people don’t get three square meals and don’t have that youthful energy to react. The state does not allow guns for personal protection. If there is strong economic growth, people are not going to take it any more and the state would shrink to Dilli as it has happened in past.
Holy cow..

Pakistan is down the curve by ten or fifteen years.

Posted by Matrixx | Report as abusive

@Umair

thanks for responding to my query re: Pak generals. Do you attribute any of the blame for the current condition of Pakistan to Zia and/or Musharraf?

Re: Rahul Gandhi’s comment, It’s a political stunt. So, I wouldn’t read too much into it. BJP & the right wing parties are his political opponents, so it’s no surprise that he’s slamming them in order to deflect the focus from his party, which is currently embroiled in a corruption scandal.

Posted by Mortal1 | Report as abusive

Re: Guardian article

Injustice should be strongly condemned, no matter where they happen, India, Pakistan or elsewhere. For most part, Indians do (& should) accept & condemn the reality that atrocities have been commited in Kashmir BUT Pakistanis should also not shy away from the sins commited by their army in the past & present. Finger pointing & making excuses helps nobody & certainly not the victims of these horrendous crimes.

Posted by Mortal1 | Report as abusive

The japanese were supposedly best in torturing their prisoners, causing extreme injuries to body and soul but not allowing them to die. The USA has supposedly broken the Japanese ww2 record now and the techniques are detailed in army manuals. We should try to obtain this manual which also provides the name of the location where specific operations are carried out, keeping it strictly in accordance with the laws of the country. It is not a secret that the USA is outsourcing many torture operations in friendly european, middle east and far eastern countries. I guess and it is a guess only that Indian police and the like are using outdated crude torture techniques and therefore most of their prisoners do not survive the procedure. Should’nt UNO be asked to control this mass practice to ensure that all prisoners get a uniform and fair torture treatment at the hands of their captors?

Rex Minor

Posted by pakistan | Report as abusive

Matrixx: “So what it means is that it normal and systematic all over India.”

Not only India, all across many third and second world countries. Read my earlier posting. It is not desirable. But we do not live in an ideal world.

“Now India being proud democracy, the people love to be tortured otherwise such practices would not persist.”

You are using your law 101 logic. Torture is prevalent. This does not mean you can draw a corollary to people loving to be tortured. And it has nothing to do with democracy.

Understand why torture is being used, though it is not justified – the ratio of police to public is very small. Police get burdened with too many cases. High profile crimes demand attention from higher ups and media. The only path the police see is to get quick response from the alleged victims. Torture is used not only from getting a quick response through fear inducement, but also prevent real culprits from thinking twice about committing the crime again. There is not much money and space available to house all criminals comfortably like they do in developed countries, where they spend close to 30000 dollars a year to keep a criminal behind bars. Here cases rot and delays are normal. Police job is tension filled and frustration induced stress level is very high. Cops and interrogators end up taking it own on whoever comes under their control. This is wrong. But it happens all over the world. I don’t know if you have heard of Rodney King case in Los Angeles. Some criminals taunt the security personnel and that makes things worse.

In the US the general motto is you never mess with the cops. They will get at you if you did. Behind the scenes they can do a lot of damage to an individual if he messed with cops. When that is the case, imagine third world countries.

In Kashmir, the tension level is high. Not all security personnel are trained well to handle mob and its frenzy. Many get posted in stressful areas as a part of settling scores by peers and superiors. They go in there under duress and frustration. And they end up venting it out on the stone pelting public which appears defiant and belligerent. All this is not justified. But that is the way things are. No one from India will ever deny this or defend it.

“The real question is why the population has not rebelled in a massive insurgency?”

Violence cannot settle everything. This is something you Pakistanis have to learn. Insurgencies will not bring any solution. What is needed is sustained growth towards a healthy society. Things will take care of themselves. For a country like India, this kind of growth will take a few decades. Things have improved considerably compared to before.

“My thinking is that most people don’t get three square meals and don’t have that youthful energy to react. The state does not allow guns for personal protection. If there is strong economic growth, people are not going to take it any more and the state would shrink to Dilli as it has happened in past.”

Guns make things worse. People should never be encouraged to take law on to their own hands, especially against the government. Everything has to be done through a process of democratic exercise, judicial process improvement, media exposure etc. Things cannot change overnight. A nation has to grow and mature and that takes time. A huge country like India will need a lot of time for uniform development.

“Pakistan is down the curve by ten or fifteen years.”

Pakistan will self destruct. If its economy does not improve and if it gets tangled into more geo-political conflicts, it will reach a point of no return. I think you guys should focus on your nation more and not try to find faults with India all the time. India has its drawbacks, but no one will deny them or defend them. We know where we stand and we know there is a long way to go. We are not going to give up.

Posted by KPSingh01 | Report as abusive

KPS
Dear sir, I agree with your arguments in defense of state torture and I applaud your effort. You would have found gainful employment under Hitler or Stalin.

My analysis is based on sociological historic trends and consequent possible outcomes. I can also give you reinforcing actions to protect the regime. Raise food prices, physical separation of well to do from the masses. Public torture of militants. Put fear of Ram in their heart. Merit and money is the right slogan, of course never mention equality and justice.

Am I helpful or what?

Posted by Matrixx | Report as abusive

KPSingh:”Pakistan will self destruct. If its economy does not improve and if it gets tangled into more geo-political conflicts, it will reach a point of no return. I think you guys should focus on your nation more and not try to find faults with India all the time. India has its drawbacks, but no one will deny them or defend them. We know where we stand and we know there is a long way to go. We are not going to give up.”

-Pakistan is hear to remain, the geopolitics of the region means Pakistan has to play an even bigger role regionally from the Afghan war, to relations with super powers. The Chinese leader is in Pakistan signing $20 billion deals from business to finance to nuclear reactors. We are doing pretty good so far. And strongly condemn the Indian state terrorism in Kashmir.

Posted by Umairpk | Report as abusive

*Pakistan is here to remain.

Posted by Umairpk | Report as abusive

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/12/18/world/ asia/18pstan.html?_r=1&hp

Pakistani Role Is Suspected in Revealing U.S. Spy’s Name

Posted by Umairpk | Report as abusive

Matrixx: “I agree with your arguments in defense of state torture and I applaud your effort. You would have found gainful employment under Hitler or Stalin.”

I can see clearly that you approach an argument with an already preconceived vision. Everything presented is seen from the perspective which makes a skewed logic from your stand point. I am not justifying torture. I am saying that it is present in India. I am also saying it is not only present in India, it is everywhere. So I see nothing standing out in the case of India and am wondering why crooks are calling India crooks. This is like prostitution. Just doing an essay on prostitution in India does not make it a bad country. There are brothels in Pakistan, Bangladesh and everywhere. It is not desirable in this world. But unfortunately it cannot be eradicated overnight. Do you see my point? You are pot and I am kettle. We both are black. Hitler set up concentration camps. You need to be clear and not get confused between concentration camp and a police torture. The two have no relevance.

“My analysis is based on sociological historic trends and consequent possible outcomes.”

Can you provide some data? A good statistically significant and scientific data? And data that shows India being the only bad country in the world in regards to torture, and what not. I’d like to see your analysis on historic trends, and also your thesis on possible outcomes. We are eagerly waiting.

“I can also give you reinforcing actions to protect the regime. Raise food prices, physical separation of well to do from the masses. Public torture of militants.”

Looks like you guys did all this very successfully in East Pakistan. And they love you to death for that.

“Put fear of Ram in their heart.”

I don’t care. I’d let the Hindus protest about the use of Ram in a derisive manner.

“Merit and money is the right slogan, of course never mention equality and justice.”

I am sure in your land of milk and honey, headed by Mr 10%, run by a rogue cartel with weapons, merit, money, equality, justice etc are being handed out regularly. We see that on the news everyday. We see people blowing themselves up and others with them. There is no fear of Allah in dream land Pakistan. That’s for sure.

Posted by KPSingh01 | Report as abusive

KPS
Like I said in an earlier post, I’m not your teacher and I don’t want to be one.
Again, at least in law, it no defense that others are doing it. Don’t you want to maintain your Gandhian high moral ground?
When I write about Pakistani society, I would not give them any slack what so ever. I call for revolution and bloody house cleaning, no exceptions, no time for song and dance.

Posted by Matrixx | Report as abusive

@”When I write about Pakistani society, I would not give them any slack what so ever. I call for revolution and bloody house cleaning, no exceptions” Posted by Matrixx

I haven’t see any of that from you. At least on this blog, all you have done, is point fingers at India or mock the hindu religion. How would you like, if others start mocking prophet Mohammad or make refferences to pigs while talking about Pakistanis?

Posted by Mortal1 | Report as abusive

correction: I haven’t seen…..

Posted by Mortal1 | Report as abusive

Matrixx:”Like I said in an earlier post, I’m not your teacher and I don’t want to be one.”

No one asked you to be a teacher. You were the one who talked like an expert telling me that I need a course in law 101. This is coming from a guy from a country that sees no law and order. Part of the country has no government writ runs and tribals run their own ancient rules. People carry guns to protect themselves. Military is running terrorist camps. And we get lectured on law and order. Surely ours is not a golden country. But we will take that comment from anyone from a real golden country where rights, freedom, rule of the law prevail. Your country does not figure in that list. I’d like you to remember that before you guys start taking pot shots at our country.

“Again, at least in law, it no defense that others are doing it.”

Whose law? Can you be more specific? Is it Pakistani law? Indian law? Which law book are you citing from? Lawyers always provide very specific references to make their case points. Every time issues are pointed out at Pakistan, the first line of defense is exactly the same that you are preaching against – Americans started proxy war. Therefore Pakistan is justified in doing it. Indians exploded the nukes. Therefore Pakistan is justified in it. India cut Bangladesh off. Therefore Pakistan is justified in supporting Kashmir or Khalistan separation. So when it comes to you, there seem to be separate set of rules. I think you guys should introspect on it.

Your country has blood on its hands – that of millions of Bengalis. No matter how much you try to wipe it off, it will never be erased. And it is surprising to me that you guys are championing human rights for Kashmiris. We know it is not any feeling for Kashmiris. It is venom and hatred against India that makes your “sympathy” come out.

“Don’t you want to maintain your Gandhian high moral ground?”

Yes. We produced a Gandhi. You produced a Jinnah. We chose the path of peace and construction. You guys chose the path of conflicts and destruction. Therein lies the difference.

Posted by KPSingh01 | Report as abusive

@”The Chinese leader is in Pakistan signing $20 billion deals from business to finance to nuclear reactors. We are doing pretty good so far.” Posted by Umairpk

If China can help Pakistan’s economy get back on track, that would be great. It would mean development & education and thus less radicalization, extremism & terrorism. It would be a win win for the region. In case you missed it, the Chinese PM was in India, earlier as well & there too he made a lot of deals & concilliatory statements. This is the age of global cooperation & not confrontation & the Chinese know that too well. They are making it quite clear that their relationship with Pakistan will not be at the expense of their relationship with India. An excerpt from Dawn:

“Although the deals are vitally important to the moribund Pakistani economy, they pale into comparison with Wen’s agreement in Pakistan’s arch rival India on Thursday where the two countries agreed to double bilateral trade to 100 billion dollars”

Posted by Mortal1 | Report as abusive

KPS
When I was talking about teaching, I was talking about sociology and in answer go go into a tirade about Pakistan.

When I talk about law, it is English Common Law, not Law of Mannu. In your answer you go into another tirade against Pakistan.

I would not have referenced Gandhi unless I had some respect for him. You bring up Jinnah. Jinnah was a lawyer leader who successfully pleaded the case for new country. He spent many year with and knew well INC and what is coming down the pipe. Minorities treatment is living proof of INC politics.

You want to talk about Bengla, why don’t you talk about Punjab? Are you a Sikh?

Why do you have hard time stay on topic?

Posted by Matrixx | Report as abusive

Matrixx: “When I was talking about teaching, I was talking about sociology and in answer go go into a tirade about Pakistan.”

Oh now you have branched into sociology! After dodging around law for sometime until I provided the link where the US was going to prosecute Assange, now you have shifted into sociology. Soon it will be psychology, then entomology, paleontology and so on. I have no interest.

“When I talk about law, it is English Common Law, not Law of Mannu. In your answer you go into another tirade against Pakistan.”

English common law works in UK. If you claim you are from UK, then Rex claims he is from Germany, but both talk like tribals inside Pakistan’s lawless lands. Law of Mannu – who was Mannu? No one follows such laws in India.

“I would not have referenced Gandhi unless I had some respect for him. You bring up Jinnah. Jinnah was a lawyer leader who successfully pleaded the case for new country. He spent many year with and knew well INC and what is coming down the pipe. Minorities treatment is living proof of INC politics.”

Kindly do not taint Gandhi’s name by mentioning him. Jinnah successfully pleaded a case for himself. He could care less for Muslims or anyone else. He was a power maniac and would do anything to be in power. INC did not deal with religion. It dealt with independence from the British. Only myopic minds will view it from a religious angle. If you saw everything from a Muslim versus non-Muslim view point, the whole world is your enemy.

“You want to talk about Bengla, why don’t you talk about Punjab? Are you a Sikh?”

What is there to talk about Punjab? Didn’t you guys cut that in half and drive our ancestors out of there?

“Why do you have hard time stay on topic?”

Because you keep side tracking it.

Posted by KPSingh01 | Report as abusive

Umairpk: “Pakistani Role Is Suspected in Revealing U.S. Spy’s Name”

That is not good for Pakistan. The US knows where Pakistan has buried the skeletons as well. And it will expose Pakistan more. This is a bad move from a strategic stand point. Making an enemy out of the US is the worst thing. Every country that was an enemy of the US has suffered. The USSR simply disappeared. Your country could not even survive as their friends. Now you are becoming their enemy. Bad move. Just bad move.

Posted by KPSingh01 | Report as abusive

Umairpk: “Pakistan is here to remain.”

In world history. We will be telling our grand kids that once upon a time there was a country called Pakistan. It was created by a power hungry war lord. By making one bad choice after another, they ate themselves out of existence. The moral of the story children is – do not divide. Co-exist with others and share this world. Division is driven by selfish people. And selfish people should never be allowed to succeed. Otherwise they will destroy this world.

Posted by KPSingh01 | Report as abusive

KPSingh:
“Making an enemy out of US is bad thing”.
“In world history. We will be telling our grand kids that once upon a time there was a country called Pakistan. It was created by a power hungry war lord. By making one bad choice after another, they ate themselves out of existence. The moral of the story children is – do not divide. Co-exist with others and share this world. Division is driven by selfish people. And selfish people should never be allowed to succeed. Otherwise they will destroy this world.”

-KPSingh, division was and is the destiny of India. It was divided in 1947, subdivided it will be again when Kashmir breaks off followed by the Maoists. You are a breed of insecure people who resent the creation of Pakistan. We are a nation who won its independence and learnt to protect its freedom. If you mess with us now you know what will happen, just accept the reality that Pakistan is.
On making an enemy out of US, don’t worry we know how to play with fire. We have had super powers poking in our backyard for 30 years, we are making our choices and will stand by it. Thanks for showing concern though.

Posted by Umairpk | Report as abusive

KPSingh:outsmart the congress “Kindly do not taint Gandhi’s name by mentioning him. Jinnah successfully pleaded a case for himself. He could care less for Muslims or anyone else. He was a power maniac and would do anything to be in power.”

-Jinnah was a great statesman, Gandhi was a shortsighted, myopic person who did not take into consideration the concerns of Muslims. As a spokesman and representative of Muslims, Jinnah a smart and educated guy simply outsmarted the congress thugs and singlehanded manner won the independence of Indian Muslims. Today we proudly call ourselves Pakistanis and respect Jinnah as founder of Pakistan. More next time.

Posted by Umairpk | Report as abusive

Mortal:
On China-India-Pakistan relations, I think the good thing is that Pakistan also accepts the realities of India-China relations. In our view it does not have a negative impact, If both these three nations can have good and excellent relations it can create an atmosphere of trust and have a generally stabilizing affect on the region. It does not necessarily have to be confrontational, India-China fought war in 1962, Pakistan-India fought wars in 65-71 etc. But things are changing for better, in your own words this is an age of globalization and not confrontation. Just imagine a future where Pakistan and India can have the kind of relationship like Pakistan and China. For a country like Pakistan with a struggling economy we would need good trade and bilateral relations with everyone. Confrontation serves no purpose and we should get all the disputes out of our way.

Posted by Umairpk | Report as abusive

Richard Holbrooke, his intellect and seemingly Herculean efforts will be a hard vacuum to fill. I’m sure America has plenty of good, honest, intellectual, hardworking citizens who could become a diplomat of equivalent standing.
I hope they can make it through the knuckle-heads who have sacrificed democracy for a fast buck from the lobbiers and are leading the west to global conflict.

Posted by Tiu | Report as abusive

Umairpk: “division was and is the destiny of India. It was divided in 1947, subdivided it will be again when Kashmir breaks off followed by the Maoists.”

You are partially correct in this statement. The British planted enough land mines so that India would implode and fall apart. The chances of its survival as a single nation was close to nil in 1947. But the British were wrong. They underestimated the capability of Indian leaders who put national growth as a priority over other things, including military might.

From 1947 to 1960, growth was the focus. India had a very weak military and in 1962 it was exposed. In reality what has made India become united slowly over the years is Pakistan’s frequent assaults in various forms. If Pakistan had minded its own business like Bangladesh or Nepal, India still was on the verge of self destruction. Kashmir had become peaceful during these years. Problems arose elsewhere.

Inept leadership and divisive politics did push India to the brink. But your military leaders had no patience. They wanted to see India burn too quickly. What they did ended up providing patriotic feelings to Indians. So we thank your military for that. After 1991, India made the right choice and more accomplishments and progress have made India more cohesive. Kashmir is only a blip on the screen. No one is going to mess with India on Kashmir. Presidents and Prime Ministers of wealthy and powerful nations are making trips to India one by one making business deals. If your generals try to sabotage that, then your country will face more isolation.

Maoism was more prevalent than today. In southern states of India, it has lost its steam because of economic growth. It has managed to survive in the relatively backward states in North and Central India. But here too economic growth is spreading in all directions. It is only a matter of time and Maoism will lose its steam there as well. There will always be small groups of criminals trying to wield the gun. But that is part of the fabric.

“You are a breed of insecure people who resent the creation of Pakistan.”

If Pakistan had not become like a criminal in the neighborhood, we will not be concerned about your country that much. People always have to be watchful in a neighborhood prone to crime. We are being cautious. We have no regrets about Pakistan going its way. We know it is for real. But it was an unnecessary land mine set up by the imperial British to blow up the sub-continent. Unfortunately the land mine is going to blow on their face. It is only a matter of time.

“We are a nation who won its independence and learnt to protect its freedom.”

It is not about your freedom that we are talking about. Instead of keeping it your country is trying to affect the freedom of others in the neighborhood. That is the real problem. Your military’s freedom is well protected. They have set up a barricade around themselves by putting the ordinary people of Pakistan as sand bags.

“If you mess with us now you know what will happen, just accept the reality that Pakistan is.”

We do not want to have anything to with your country. It is your country that has been a constant irritant using one excuse or the other. Your country is suffering from paranoia like a mental patient and is throwing stones at people nearby out of that.

And your threats with nukes do not make much impact on us. We have enough systems in place to take care of that. Plus the world is not going to let you hold on to dangerous weapons for too long. Now that your country is pissing the Americans off, trust me, the Americans will mess your country up even more.

“On making an enemy out of US, don’t worry we know how to play with fire.”

Sure. We can see that. Suicide bombs are going off everyday. Drones are killing key militants who have been valuable assets to Pakistan’s military. A lot of investment has been blown away by the military. That is why I see news of protest against drones being propped up by your military. Keep playing with fire. I don’t think you are aware that it is burning your country from within. That is why we from outside can see the self destruction process in progress. Being inside, blinded by pride and emotion, you are not going to see it. And that is no surprise.

“We have had super powers poking in our backyard for 30 years, we are making our choices and will stand by it. Thanks for showing concern though.”

Super powers poked their noses. But your generals leased out your nation to gain benefits out of it. During those years, battles were confined to regions outside of Pakistan. Now the situation is different. Pakistan is now being realized as part of the problem. That was not the case during those “wonder” years. By becoming an enemy of the US and tilting towards China, Pakistan is placing the last nail on its coffin. The US will hammer it down. Wait and watch. Pakistan has survived all these years with American tax payers money. China does not pay. It takes. If it sinks 20 billion, it will count every penny out of it and take 30 billion back.

Blinded by emotions and feelings of jealousy and frustration your countrymen are falling into a whirlpool from which there is going to be no escape. Enjoy the remaining days of 2010. 2011 onwards things will not be so good.

And you can keep your nukes and kiss them everyday.

Posted by KPSingh01 | Report as abusive

Umairpk: “Jinnah was a great statesman, Gandhi was a shortsighted, myopic person who did not take into consideration the concerns of Muslims.”

Gandhi fasted to stop violence against Muslims. It angered Hindus so much that a Hindu fanatic shot him dead. Gandhi preached non-violence and co-existence. He saw the machination of the British in causing a dangerous divide. He quit from politics after 1947 and settled down to social work.
Jinnah fits what you describe – short sighted, myopic and pretending to be concerned about Muslims. As Pakistan has clearly demonstrated over the years, it is a product of Jinnah’s selfish and short sighted ambition. Jinnah became a head of state. And his country fell apart ever since. It is still on a tail spin.

“As a spokesman and representative of Muslims, Jinnah a smart and educated guy simply outsmarted the congress thugs and singlehanded manner won the independence of Indian Muslims. Today we proudly call ourselves Pakistanis and respect Jinnah as founder of Pakistan. More next time.”

Lives of Muslims has not become better by making a country for Muslims. Feudalism, ethnic rivalry, linguistic clash (East Pakistan), sectarian violence, radicalism, corruption, wars in the neighborhood, suicide blasts etc are the legacy of Jinnah. You can pray to him as much as you want. Reality and truth remain the same – Jinnah’s legacy is doomed for complete failure.

Posted by KPSingh01 | Report as abusive

Umairpk: “Jinnah was a great statesman, Gandhi was a shortsighted, myopic person who did not take into consideration the concerns of Muslims.”

You need a history lesson Umair, the REAL history & not the Pakistani version of it. So, browse the web & check it out. Gandhi is the reason that you have a Pakistan today & he paid for that, with his life. A vast majority of the Congress leaders were against the partition (with Vallabh bhai Patel being the strongest voice of all). It was only Jinnah & Nehru who wanted the partition in order to acheive their own personal ambitions. If not for Gandhi, there would have been NO Pakistan but only India with Valabh bhai Patel as the first Prime Minister.

Posted by Mortal1 | Report as abusive

As for the $20 bn deals between China & Pakistan, bear in mind, these are very long term deals. They are not immediate orders to buy Pakistani products by China or anything like that but rather long term commitments (5, 10, 15 yrs +) by China to build various projects inside Pakistan. So although it will help Pakistan’s economy, the end result will be a net gain by China. Also, for most of these projects to get started, Pakistan will have to stabalize first or else the Chinese will not risk their investments.

Posted by Mortal1 | Report as abusive

Let us not overstretch the issue. The world is concerned with the tortures being committed by the so called civilised western world leader! The same leader who is called the big Satan or evil by the Iranians and the Imperialist country which has been waging wars against the weaker Nations based on fabricated lies, says Mr Chavez.
Now about the torture by the Indian military in kashmir or other parts of India must be obvious to every person with a minimal common sence. Like some one mentioned torture is common in most underdeveloped countries of the world( ofcourse there are various types of tortures, the ordinary one or the most advanced one). I look at the simple logic that if a Govt. uses its military against its citizens, then the torture by the State in that country must be the accepted practice and order of the day. I can straightaway single out few countries in this category, India, Pakistan,Siri Lanka, Burma(I refuse to recognise its new name), Philipines and there must be many others. Mind you I do not regard police manhandling and beating of its citizens holding street demonstrations, in these countries as tortures. I also believe that Indian torture of kashmiris is not discriminatory, but must be a common practice by the police and military against any citizen of other states as well. I would not regard beating in public with sticks of the demonstrators, who are protesting against the Govt. for one reason or other as torture. It is regretful in a democracy but people get used to it similar to the corporal punishment in schools, I guess in Britain it is still allowed?

Rex Minor

Posted by pakistan | Report as abusive

Talking about torture in Indian Kashmir, here’s a peice on the angelic deeds of the Pakistani army in PoK.

“Pakistan Army and ISI is kidnapping and killing people of Gilgit Baltistan”

http://story.pakistantelegraph.com/index .php/ct/9/cid/8c3d7d78943a99c7/id/721313  /cs/1/ht/Pakistan-Army-and-ISI-is-kidna pping-and-killing-people-of-Gilgit-Balti stan/

Posted by Mortal1 | Report as abusive

Those who visit Iraq and see the grave of general Gordon, would have the chance to read the following;

He fought well, and kept the faith!

Mr Holbrooke was a shrewd diplomat and recognised that the so called Taliban offer of talks after USA withdrawl meant surrender!
Let this be inscripted on the grave of Mr Holbrooke; he refused to surrender and kept his faith in the American Power.
Like the former chancellor of Germany said that Alexander the great was the only wise one who left Afghanistan with the shortest stay possible!

Rex Minor

Posted by pakistan | Report as abusive

PS
The talk about Indians torture in Kashmir is a diversion.
Rex Minor

Posted by pakistan | Report as abusive

Cave Mullah: “The talk about Indians torture in Kashmir is a diversion.”

No it is about Richard Holbrooke. Take a break from whatever it is that you are smoking.

Posted by KPSingh01 | Report as abusive

[...] policy is between use of force and use of diplomacy. Some foreign policy analysts believe that in the post-Holbrooke scenario, the balance may shift towards use of force rather than diplomacy. If the US President Obama [...]