Pakistan: Now or Never?
Perspectives on Pakistan
Pakistan and the taboo of secularism
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For everyone trying to understand the implications of Salman Taseer’s assassination, this essay from 2007 is good place to start (h/t Abu Muqawama). “The Politics of God” is about why Europe decided, after years of warfare over the correct interpretation of Christianity, to separate church and state. But it is also relevant to Pakistan, where the killing of the Punjab governor over his opposition to the country’s blasphemy laws has shown that what was left of Pakistani secularism, is, if not dead, at least in intensive care.
Read the opening paragraph to understand why it resonates:
“For more than two centuries, from the American and French Revolutions to the collapse of Soviet Communism, world politics revolved around eminently political problems. War and revolution, class and social justice, race and national identity — these were the questions that divided us. Today, we have progressed to the point where our problems again resemble those of the 16th century, as we find ourselves entangled in conflicts over competing revelations, dogmatic purity and divine duty. We in the West are disturbed and confused. Though we have our own fundamentalists, we find it incomprehensible that theological ideas still stir up messianic passions, leaving societies in ruin. We had assumed this was no longer possible, that human beings had learned to separate religious questions from political ones, that fanaticism was dead. We were wrong.”
The point of highlighting this essay is not to argue that Pakistan should emulate the west, nor indeed that secularism is necessarily the answer, but rather to suggest that there is still a debate to be had in a country where even using the word secular is becoming taboo. (And before anyone accuses me of orientalism, the advantage of looking at it through the lens of European history is that it also strips out some of the other factors which contribute to the nature of Pakistani society today — the war in Afghanistan, America’s response to 9/11, the role of the army, its past use of militant proxies, the weakness of its civilian governments, the fragility of the economy etc, etc).
As the blogger kala kawa put it, ”too much space has been ceded. Too much PUBLIC space has been ceded. This debate cannot go underground. It must not be behind closed doors. We don’t have guns, and we don’t have bombs, and we don’t even want to kill anyone. We just want to talk it out. Unfortunately, that’s enough for them to want to kill us.”
Or to quote Pakistan’s ideological father, Ellama Mohammad Iqbal, himself not a secularist, in one of his early letters: “Let the many-headed monster of public (opinion) give their dross of respect to others who act and live in accordance with their false ideals of religion and morality. I cannot stoop to respect their conventions which suppress the innate freedom of man’s mind.”
So back to Europe and “The Politics of God”. Author Mark Lilla traces the separation of church and state to the 17th century, at a time when Christians had wearied themselves with killing other Christians — just as much of today’s violence is a battle within Islam. In his treatise “Leviathan”, the English philosopher Thomas Hobbes laid down the idea that men would only be free of fear and war if they created political institutions without grounding them in religion.
“This liberal-democratic order is the only one we in the West recognize as legitimate today, and we owe it primarily to Hobbes. In order to escape the destructive passions of messianic faith, political theology centered on God was replaced by political philosophy centered on man. This was the Great Separation,” writes Lilla.
Do read the whole essay, but I want to scroll forward now to what Lilla had to say about the 1930s. It struck me as particularly interesting since that is where the idea of Pakistan finds its ideological moorings (for those who don’t know, this blog, Pakistan: Now or Never, is named after a 1933 pamphlet calling for the creation of Pakistan).
According to Lilla, the idea of political theology never really disappeared in the west with the separation of church and state, just as the human impulse to religious faith never disappears. But it reappeared in a particularly distorted form in Europe after World War One in ”messianic” notions of how to transform society. And it reappeared especially in Weimar in Germany where that messianic faith in the possibility of human redemption, he argues, led to Nazism.
“All of which served to confirm Hobbes’s iron law: Messianic theology eventually breeds messianic politics. The idea of redemption is among the most powerful forces shaping human existence in all those societies touched by the biblical tradition. It has inspired people to endure suffering, overcome suffering and inflict suffering on others. It has offered hope and inspiration in times of darkness; it has also added to the darkness by arousing unrealistic expectations and justifying those who spill blood to satisfy them. All the biblical religions cultivate the idea of redemption, and all fear its power to inflame minds and deafen them to the voice of reason. In the writings of these Weimar figures, we encounter what those orthodox traditions always dreaded: the translation of religious notions of apocalypse and redemption into a justification of political messianism, now under frightening modern conditions. It was as if nothing had changed since the 17th century, when Thomas Hobbes first sat down to write his ‘Leviathan’.”
Many of the men who fought for the creation of Pakistan lived or studied in Europe and cannot have been immune to the political influences sweeping the region in those fateful years after World War One. At the time Europe was reeling from the sheer scale of death wrought by the war and looking for other ways to structure its political systems. It was a time where people believed again in the possibility of an idealised and perfectible society, rather as they had done in medieval Europe when they fought over Christianity. Communism and international socialism was one such ideal. Fascism was another. It was only after the trauma of World War Two that modern liberal - and secular - democracy, really took root in Europe (and since it has been going for only 60 years, a short space of time compared to centuries of history, it’s impossible to predict whether it has taken root for good.)
It was in that feverish atmosphere that Choudhary Rahmat Ali’ proclaimed in ”Now or Never” – written in Cambridge, England - that the Muslims of South Asia might ”live or perish for ever” if they did not stand up for their faith and the existence of Pakistan. It is a fear that has found expression nowadays in an intense anti-Americanism. (Interestingly, he also complains that Muslims were in danger of being sacrificed by their “so-called leaders”, who had gone along ”without any protest or demur” with plans for a united independent India, a criticism also levelled at today’s leaders for cooperating with the United States.)
Iqbal believed that only Islam, with its internationalist outlook and faith in common humanity, could break down the barriers of race and national greed which had led to World War One.
And in 1933, he wrote admiringly of Italian dictator Mussolini as an example of the essence of Islamic economics, which was ”to render the growth of large capitals impossible. Mussolini and Hitler think in the same way. Bolshevism has gone to the extreme of abolishing capitalism altogether. In all aspects of life, Islam always takes the middle course.”
Yet Iqbal was also a scholar, who credited early Islamic scholarship, and its capacity for inductive rather than deductive reasoning, with laying the philosophical groundwork for European humanism — the same kind of reasoning that led Hobbes to reject the politics of religion. Somewhere in that capacity for intellectual thought, and what he called “the innate freedom of man’s mind”, lies the space for debate.
(File photo of the grave dug for an earlier victim of violence in Pakistan)
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777
You have identified the problem without knowing the full implications.You have a country named after a river in a foreign country and have a religion named after a river in a foreign country. Similarly a ruling party named as such. You are in copy right violation of truth in advertising. An essential element of clarity of thinking is creating pure categories on a scientific basis. It is high time you correct this problem or seek permission to use the name and appropriately compensate people of Indus valley.
@”I think we must look inside among ourselves and while it is true some of the problems are due to external factors. Much of it is of our own making.”
Posted by Umairpk
That’s the spirit my friend. It’s time to focus on curing the disease rather than on it’s causes. Whatever the causes might be, CIA, Zia, Kashmir or something else, at the end of the day, it’s Pakistan’s problem & only young & educated Pakistanis like you can solve it and you’ll find the support of Indians with you. Enough time has been wasted in pointing fingers & making excuses, it’s time to come up with solutions & transform your nation.
Matrixx: “You have identified the problem without knowing the full implications.You have a country named after a river in a foreign country and have a religion named after a river in a foreign country. Similarly a ruling party named as such. You are in copy right violation of truth in advertising. An essential element of clarity of thinking is creating pure categories on a scientific basis. It is high time you correct this problem or seek permission to use the name and appropriately compensate people of Indus valley.”
Sorry to butt in.
You have taken up a religion from a foreign country and adopted the cultural practices of another tribal culture from the desert.
You are using a forum developed in a foreign country and writing in a language belonging to a foreign country.
You are accepting the use of weapons made by using foreigners or foreign technology.
Your nukes are from stolen technology from foreign countries.
Your military and government are structured based on foreign systems.
Your industry, business, schools, colleges etc are from foreign origin.
The dress you wear at home came from Central Asian Turks and Persians.
If you want to be scientific in everything, then you must follow your own advice. May be you can campaign going back to the old ways that are pure and original. After all your nation is named as a land of the pure. You must try purifying your holy nation off everything. I wouldn’t say this another person. But since you project an air scientific approach towards everything, I thought I’d remind you of your ignorance.
777xxx777: “And I am not trying to force any religion down anyone’s throat. All that I am saying is that word ‘Hindu’ was originally used NOT to specify religions but the location (in a broad sense of course) of any Indian, by ancient Persians.”
Agree with your views here. The “Hindu” seems to be geographical, much like the term “European” or “American” or “Asian.” Religions only become a subset of it. Cultures form another subset.
@Umair, Mortal, Singh,
The politicization of religion as a tool for national unity in Pakistan has failed and in fact unhinging Pakistan and rolling it into a backwards 7th century state extremely fast.
One solution would be a new patriotic movement that at its core doctrine seeks to align all value systems under the umbrella of what is good for peace, stability, health and welfare of the people, balanced with modern education.
As easily as the PA under Zia Al Haq made religious rules, they can also undo those rules, by creating a new clerical class, incubating them and setting them free upon the population to encourage them to embrace moderate philosophies. Within time, as people gravitate to moderate clerics, who advocate modernism and democracy and secularity, the extreme clerics will not be able to hold their slave like grip on people’s minds, people will not be interested in the extremist right wing dung that they are forcing down avg. people’s throats.
The clerics can’t destroy all 170 million people all at the same time can they? People have to self-realize that they ARE moderate and they are huge in numbers and that their will cannot be challenged. People need to organize and take charge of their affairs.
KPS
Wow, I hit a nerve there. Love it. I will also get around to culture. Chew on issue of false advertising, and that is not 7th century concept.
Right now I like to spend more time on terror factories in Bharat. Is it OK?
Matrixx: “Chew on issue of false advertising, and that is not 7th century concept”
Who is advertising? I am only trying to point out the hypocrisy in your view here.
“Right now I like to spend more time on terror factories in Bharat. Is it OK?”
Please go ahead and list them. Let us see which ones the world is worried about, compared to the “non-state actor” factories in Pakistan, starting all the way from your military down to the single man, sword of Islam, beloved of the prophet, Allah’s holy warrior, Ghazi, Mumtaz Qadri.
G-W: “The politicization of religion as a tool for national unity in Pakistan has failed and in fact unhinging Pakistan and rolling it into a backwards 7th century state extremely fast.”
Let me reiterate here: Pakistan was not formed for Muslims. It was formed by the colonial British, specifically for staging campaigns to thwart Russian expansion into South Asia. I can refer you to a book if you want. Of course the British were adept at triggering a problem from out of thin air and using it to divide people. “A nation for Muslims” to protect themselves from “Hindus” is one such tool that they used. There are always selfish agents, ready to sell their mothers to get to power everywhere. In Jinnah they found one. If you look at Pakistan’s entire history, you will see that it has been a military garrison for foreign forces to fight their battles. It never was a nation. Its people have been left abandoned to fend for themselves right from the start. That is why there is no effort to build a nation and infrastructure. It has always been a trench digging mission.
“One solution would be a new patriotic movement that at its core doctrine seeks to align all value systems under the umbrella of what is good for peace, stability, health and welfare of the people, balanced with modern education.”
You need to stop day dreaming. Please step into the real world. Just like Europe, after many wars and battles spanning over centuries, settled down after a massive world war in 1940s, Pakistan will settle through a violent struggle. And a lot of countries surrounding it will suffer from it as a bargain. Afghanistan has already been turned into rubble. There is no other way out. All the mad Mullahs are not going to disappear into thin air. Go see the videos on Mumtaz Qadri in youtube. You will be amazed at the sentiments in Pakistan. It is quite shocking.
Jinnah planted the seed. Britain gave birth to Pakistan. Zia Ul Haq fathered it. Military turned it into a brothel for foreign powers. Now Pakistan is spent and no one wants it. It will find its own solution which will be violent and will subject its people to enormous pain and grief as a result. It is unfortunate. But things are headed that way.
@GW
National unity through the religion has not failed. It does not work. It never has. Time and again I have said that, to make a Nation from the citizen of a country requires more than a religeous binding.
The problems Pakistan is now facing are related to food and shelter for the people of the three provinces who have suffered on account of floods.
The incompetent civilian Govt. of the Bhutto clan is simply not in a position to deliver. The rest is a smoke screen and a diversion.
Rex Minor
PS
Examine the media coverage, english papers playing the jaz tune for foreign consumption, whereas, the urdu papers the classical tune for the masses.
@777
It is sometimes amusing to indulge in acadamec discussions, but is this the right time for it. You are right, when a non muslim individual from India or Pakistan walks into the Pashtoon land, he is considered a hindu. The guy might have been a christian or a Pakistani, but dressed up like an Indian is taken as a hindu, Good thinking.
The Psuedo intellectuals of Pakistan are talking balony, sorry my language, secular in urdu language dictionary means a person of no religion. No muslim country could turn its people to become secular. What the Govt. can and should do is make the Govt. secular. In otherwards the State and the religion needs to fuction separately. I gather this is what you mean by secular India. There are problems in this course but could be minimised. For example, the chistian Papa has recently warned the followers about liberalising or secularising the society, which we oberve the increase of homo and partnership between a man and woman without a marriage or inter marriages between men or women as the new trend in the USA.
Rex Minor
@Umair
Your perception: “In my opinion, India still poses an existential threat to Pakistan, …….”
“And intentions take no time to change. So this is how it works, if you have the ability to pose an existential threat, and in the past your intentions were hostile. I am not willing to take any chances, like I stated before we have nothing to loose.”
***You echo what Kayani said. PA and IA both says lot of stuff for public consumption. IA’s example was that India has the ability to take on Pakistan and China together (chief of Army staff said I think). I must be fooling myself if I trust that. Similarly, Umair if you have to buy PA perception you need to follow through the whole point.
**Your main point about the issue of “India as an existential threat to Pakistan” is 1971 division of Pakistan by India. I agree that from Pakistan POV it does not matter that Pakistan gave India an opportunity. So there is a fear in Pakistan that India might do again to divide Pakistan.
In real terms, India can be existential threat from Pakistan’s POV, by either occupying or dividing Pakistan.
@Occupation of Pakistan.
This is the same as unrealistic idea of Akhand Bharat, which has been discussed and ruled out as a possibility (check Ganesh and my posts to Matrixx). Occupation of a land with 100s of extremist groups who don’t even spare Pakistanis and religiously follow the distorted version of Islam is a plain stupidity.
@Division of Pakistan.
Umair face it. Both India and Pakistan had shots at each other; Pakistan had more (1948, 1965, Kargil wars) and succeeded in 1948. So India faces as much threat from Pakistan. It is called nuisance value based on terrorism coming from Pakistan, not called existential threat. India had one shot at Pakistan and divided it. It was feasible because West and East Pakistan were not contiguous territories. It would have NOT happened if they were contiguous lands. Not possible anymore for obvious reason. You should be proud of your nuclear cover. This in itself addresses ends the discussion.
Militarily, India’s potential is based on relative strength between India and Pakistan. It does not matter what India thinks or how strong India is. It also depends upon how strong Pakistan is. In reality if India ever thinks about doing what you fear, it will come at a huge cost to India.
Just ask 1) what is at stake for India and 2) Is it even beneficial to India?
What is at stake for India?
In contrast to Pakistan’s “we have nothing to loose” situation, India has lot to lose by getting into a war. From 1990s when India had to pledge gold and had foreign reserves to buy oil for just a week to current economic growth, getting into war is not an option. Army can go for picnic at border that is about it. USA, a super power, is a good example to see the effect of wars on economy. Funding to non-military areas are heavily cut, people lose job, and survival of the fittest takes its extreme form. You have mentioned yourself that US economy will restrict US to expand and continue wars. India is nowhere near USA or even China. Progress is slow but getting into wars will take India back to the past. Also India’s intention is to become a permanent UN Security Council member. You know what happened to Pakistan with Kargil, India will be seen as irresponsible and an aggressor—-a great reason for countries to not support India for UNSC permanent seat. India cannot afford to do get into a war. never mind all this rhetoric by analysts and Generals on either side. Like India, China also has a lot at stake and I cannot see them doing another 1962 against India. Most Indians do not lose sleep over that. There is not enough military presence on Indo-China border. You know that very well
What is at stake to the West?
Economic ties with the West means they will make sure India does not hurt their interests in India by getting into war. They have done that in the past. US/UK issued a travel warning to their citizens not to go to India/Pakistan. So the effect on economy starts even before the war. India rolled back Army from India-Pak border.
What are benefits to India? I don’t see any. You can tell me. Two Pakistans means double trouble. Imagine Pakhtoonkhwa as an independent country and TTP head as President and Pakistan Army having no authority to tackle them like they have been doing now. Sounds scary!
“Keeping that in mind, also the fact that bulk of Indian Army is deployed on the Pakistan border, facing Pakistan in a posture ready to make the thrust.”
***IA/PA face each other at the border, not just IA at the border. India can say the same that you have attacked India so many times that India trusts Chinese more than you and leaving low troop presence on China border.
““hostile relations with India, a country 6 times larger and with greater resources”
***The size of India is not going to change. This is 60 years too late to ask. Agreed ratio got worse after 1971. Greater resources question is what needs to be addressed. Not just military.
If you truly are concerned about Pakistan’s internal issues (health oil economy electricity poverty extremism) like you mentioned emotionally after Gov’s murder, you need to go easy on this REALLY UNNECESSARY perception that India is coming after you as soon as you focus on internal matters. If you go back I told you that you need to have this patriotic feeling all the time and patriotic is not about military biceps but other issues.
The height of paranoia was when Pakistan still labeled India as #1 enemy when TTP was cutting people like cucumbers and doing suicide attacks. You buy that India as #1 enemy; I fail to understand why. Extremists are already showing their potential and posing “existential threat” to Pakistan.
“I know India is making economic progress, tell me what are the intentions.”
“You must state if India’s goal is economic progress and no war, how do you want to deal with Pakistan in future given the history?”
***No country promises not to get into war. Economically, for a country over billion people, growth in all forms is essential. Lack of growth or slowing down is existential threat to India. PM Singh has commented about it at various platforms. This is true for Pakistan too. You just cannot have “Pakistan has nothing to lose” attitude and expect progress on all the fronts inside Pakistan. That means nothing.
“If you state positive, a willingness to resolve disputes and put past behind, sign a peace and friendship treaty, no use of nukes against each other. Probably it would be a good idea to move on from the bitter past and start a new begining. …”
***At the level of posters, you and me and others all we can do is express our views and not echo govt views. Ofcourse peace /friendship treaty will be great. But action is required at individual level and govt level. The willingness to resolve disputes should be done diplomatically not Kasab’s Jihad. Same is true for anyone in Pakistan. This is good for the whole region. It is not possible to eradicate religious extremism/terrorism TOTALLY without declaring that you are against all groups, no ifs and buts.
My question to you is: “Do you oppose extremists from Af-Pak to Kashmir to India (anyone essentially), including those in Af-Pak and South Punjab and LeT/JeM.? Or are their ifs and buts?”
“Right now I like to spend more time on terror factories in Bharat” Posted by Matrixx
You do that! Keep spending time on “terror factories in Bharat” while your country is being consumed by radical forces. One would hope that you learn something from Umair but I guess that would be too much to ask for.
KP Singh,
Don’t feed the troll. I think “dispassionate” in his vocabulary means “diss India passionately”. When someone is shouting with his ears closed, there is really nothing to say. It’s a waste of breath (or bytes).
Regards,
Ganesh Prasad
“I think “dispassionate” in his vocabulary means “diss India passionately”.” Posted by prasadgc
good one GP!
@Matrixx
“You have a country named after a river in a foreign country and have a religion named after a river in a foreign country”
Foreign country??? Indus is a river SHARED by India and Pakistan and NOT owned by Pakistan. And we don’t care much about names. We care about people.
“You are in copy right violation of truth in advertising.”
I like your sense of humour.
“It is high time you correct this problem or seek permission to use the name and appropriately compensate people of Indus valley.”
We ARE the people of Indus valley. Or may be you mean give bribes to Pakistanis for naming our country as India.
@Rex
“secular in urdu language dictionary means a person of no religion”
Secular in English and Hindi dictionaries also mean the same as in Urdu. But you got it right that in India secular means seperation of state and religion. What religion the citizens follow is NOT the business of state. Just like Europe.
Yes right again, not the time to discuss all this. Sorry to all for deviating from the topic at hand.
For topic at hand, it seems like we have some kind of consensus that Pakistan needs to seperate Government and Religion. I would agree with Rex that in a muslim country the constitution needs to use a better word than secular to achieve this seperation.
@Singh,
There is nothing more to say let Pakistan slide into hell.
I am shocked that Salman Taseer is the only real man in Pakistan. Every parliamentarian in this so-called democracy is a coward. What a shame, not one is stepping forward.
@777
Secular in English does not mean a person of non religion. refer oxford dictionary or webster encyclopedia, adj. concerned with the affairs of this world, not spirtual or sacred and occurring once in an age or century. Not easy to interpret or adopt words used in the western languages into the oriental languages and vice a versa.
Rex Minor
@GW
Take it easy, it is fool hardy to speak, write or justify slander. Blasphemy is a slander in every sense. Mr Taseer should have stuck to his bookkeeping profession or money making. To become part of the Bhutto clan and talk about subjects of which he has not got the slightest sense, and then behave like the opposition politician, though part of the ruling Govt. In my opinion he was killed by the execution commando, a single security guard while the rest of the Guards watched it. He should have atleast cared for his family!
There appears to be something very scary and not normal about the Peoples party. Emotional rhetoric cannot compensate for incompetence. The first order of the day should be to protect the minorities in Pakistan. I am sure most legislators would go along with the postponement and eventualy ban on capital punishment for any crime. This could be followed by the review of several laws(including Blasphemy law), and there must be many which the military dictators brought in, revisit the interpretation of the crimes and the level of punishment.
Now who is going to follow that, certainly not the clergy, judiciary ofcourse and the parliament and parliament appointed commission. This reminds me, how come the Govt. is not coming out publicly with the report of atrocities( I shall not use provocative word ‘genocide’) which the military committed against non-muslims in former east Pakistan? did this not occur during Mr Bhutto reign?
rex Minor
@Rex
http://www.google.co.uk/search?hl=en&rlz =1B3GGGL_enIN343IN343&defl=en&q=define:s ecular&sa=X&ei=KLgtTZflCYfIrQfcs9CpCg&ve d=0CBkQkAE
Although I agree that it is not easy to import/export words from one language to other but the word Secular means ‘roughly’ the same in all three languages, or so says the web. Anyway I would say this is not the place to discuss vocabulary.
@pakistan,
I wholeheartedly agree, that nobody should ever blasphemize the prophet mohammed. But you have to realize that the blasphemy law was manmade for political reasons, by Zia Al Haq, who was not a saint himself, to purge Pakistan of non-muslims.
Once religious laws are put into effect, they are extremely hard to undo, especially when its something that is already second and third nature to people.
But we have to ask ourselves, before the blasphemy law, how often did minorities suffer?
This is one scary reason, why I would never visit Pakistan in a million years. Pakistani’s become inflamed like a virus at the mere mention of someone blasphemizing, there is no proof needed, the only proof needed is the growing angry crowd as they prepare to tear an innocent minority with their bear hands, all in the name of god. Again, no proof is needed, people jump on the bandwagon and don’t even demand proof, with a blind unwavering rage, they want someone beheaded or burned to death. Again, this is no different than the Salem witch hunts in Massachusetts in the 1800′s in USA.
I am not critical of the law itself, I am critical of the people’s uncivilized and animal like reaction to it. Violence should be outlawed and traded for at least more humane punishment. Lawmakers have to find some middle ground and some courage.
Where is the mercy, where is the love, where is the humanity. Have some lost the ability to at least question whether their own reaction and behavior is civilized behavior?
Umair, pakistan, I am sorry, Pakistani’s are on a daily basis, forcing stereotypes of themselves onto our psyche. They have shown not much else.
Rehmat:
Thank you so much for a very detailed reply on existential threat question, as stated before by me for fist time ISI has given assessment that internal millitant threat to Pakistan has surpassed that posed by India. We are moving towards an era of cooperation and peace that in itself is positive for future.
GW:
“I am not critical of the law itself, I am critical of the people’s uncivilized and animal like reaction to it. Violence should be outlawed and traded for at least more humane punishment. Lawmakers have to find some middle
ground and some courage.”
-Currently another parliamentarian Sherry Rehman is also under threat, she had pushed for a bill in parliament to amend the blashphemy law. The govt. said under a charged atmosphere debate is not possible and it will be done through a step by step approach once thins cool down.
Here is an article must read from Fatima Bhutto, nice of Benazir Bhutto:
http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/602cb62e-1cef- 11e0-8c86-00144feab49a.html#axzz1AqJHMRU m
A Pakistan in mourning will not be silenced
“This is one scary reason, why I would never visit Pakistan in a million years.”
-so unfortunate you think like that, i had wished you could visit Lahore the birthplace of your parent. Salman Taseer was from Lahore, people there have big welcoming hearts and are patriotic Pakistanis. I assure they will not let Pakistan fall victim to a few religious bigots.
Although things are not looking good for Pakistan at this time with everything pointing towards a downward spiral, I for one, would like to hang on to some hope that Pakistanis can pull out of this. Salman Taseer’s murder, as horrendous & dispicable an act as it was, might be the incident which wakes up the silent moderate majority from it’s deep slumber. I suspect that there are many guys like Umair in Pakistan who finally realize that this is the final wake up call before the wake itself & urgent measures are required to set things straight. If this silent majority can rally around this incident, come together & organize a movement, Pakistan can be saved. A strong & sincere leader is needed (Imran Khan?). All is not lost yet!
@Umair
“Thank you so much for a very detailed reply on existential threat question, as stated before by me for fist time ISI has given assessment that internal millitant threat to Pakistan has surpassed that posed by India. We are moving towards an era of cooperation and peace that in itself is positive for future.”
***Umair, since we are discussing it, let us speak our minds. With respect to “India as an existential threat to Pakistan” issue, do you still think that India can convert its potential into action?
I do not agree with you that at this point India and Pakistan are “moving towards an era of cooperation and peace that in itself is positive for future.
PS: Umair, it is good that you are focusing on extremism/violence for past some time due to recent happenings in Pakistan. I agree and I asked you a question at the end of my post about this? What do you say about that?
@777
Then stop going into the web or quoting writings of columnists in various papers to justify it. English like German is a germanic language based on logic, mathematics and science. It is different from Arabic or turkish or other oriental languages which are perfect to express emotions, love or romance.
Communication among the people of this world has become very complex, because of so many languages.
Let the urdu language experts first develope a suitable word, which can be sold to the masses in their country without creating the uproar and resistence, before talking abve their heads in english language about being a secular or liberal.
@GW
Pakistan is facing problems of the biblical standard. Earthquakes, floods and its own military campaigns against its citizens. On top of that USA military and political pressure on the members of the Bhutto Clan, who are falling prey every day.
I would propse a punishment for blessphamy, thirty days community service. How does one propse this and implement it? As I said earlier, there must be many unjust laws from the colonialist times and those introduced since by the civil ot military Govts. which need to be visied and revised. It is not very difficult to create a humane society but very easy to excite and radicalise the working class of a developing country. The french revolution, Hitler rise to power are some of the examples in modern history.
I have also promised myself that it is futile to visit either Pakistan or the USA at least in 2011. I have the advantage though of believing that death only comes once and I would not be consulted when the time comes. Right now it is more scary to visit Arizona, and I have two invitations, Which the Sheriff described it as the world capitol of the Biggotry,
Mind you, to put into prospective such laws are there to suppress the the lowest among the working class or the political opponent, they are not meant for the elites or the middle class people.So, I would not worry too much except that it is difficult for any tourist to visit Pakistan or Afghanistan, both countries being declared the most dangerous spots in the world.
Rex Minor
Mortal1: “I suspect that there are many guys like Umair in Pakistan who finally realize that this is the final wake up call before the wake itself & urgent measures are required to set things straight. If this silent majority can rally around this incident, come together & organize a movement, Pakistan can be saved. A strong & sincere leader is needed (Imran Khan?).”
Pakistan had a nationwide protest by lawyers not long ago to force their government to do the right thing. Interestingly many of the same lawyers seem to be lining up to support Mumtaz Qadri and his views. I guess lawyers in Pakistan have a separate faith based principle while having a different set of principles for other matters. Or they might face the bullets from militant organizations which take no accountability for their murderous actions. In other words Pakistanis fear the threat of their militants and would like to avoid any kind of confrontation with them. They might stage protests against other matters so long as they do not cross path with militants. This is a dangerous situation. This means the radicals have gained an upper hand and the nation will submit to their will. A country cannot run on two sets of ideals. Sooner or later one will end up taking over. Only Pakistan’s military can take the necessary action to suppress the radical elements that seem to be holding the people hostage. And the military seems to be playing it safe by focusing on external threat rather than internal chaos. If they continued on like this, at some point the radicals will feel encouraged to gain strength in the military itself. I used to be appalled to see Pak cricket players openly displaying religious loyalty by staging prayers on the cricket ground. This started around the time when Inzamam Ul Haq became their captain. Religion has nothing to do with cricket. But the mindset has been infiltrated and influenced by religion. This kind of development is overall and is not confined to small pockets. The malice has spread far and wide inside Pakistan. At least if the country had made economic progress during all this, it could have managed to come out of it quickly. But Pakistan has gone from bad to worse. Economic backwardness is ideal breeding ground for radicalism to spread.
Based on what I read from many Pakistanis in this forum as well as in others, I see that most have had very limited exposure to the outside world and many have been blind folded with regressive view of others. They all seem to be consistent and seem to parrot literally the same thing. They have very little awareness of overall perspective. Even Pakistanis who have emigrated abroad seem to carry the same ignorance (read the postings by one from Germany on this forum. He never knew about the genocide in Bangladesh until he was coerced into reading about it).
It will take more than a generation to cleanse Pakistan off the stain that has penetrated the nation. And it has to come from within Pakistan itself. There are surely great thinkers and liberal people there. But they don’t get to guide others and are threatened with dire consequences.
One can emotionally thump his chest about Pakistan coming out of every crisis. But the reality is what it is. I definitely support the moderates in Pakistan. Currently I do not see any potential for them to win against the odds. First of all their military has to change its mindset. Since it was the force behind the radicalization of Pakistan, it has to undo everything to help the country come out of it. Otherwise the military itself had the potential to be taken over by radical elements. All it takes is one more Zia Ul Haq.
G-W said:
> I wholeheartedly agree, that nobody should ever blasphemize the prophet mohammed. [...] I am not critical of the law itself,
Why are you pussyfooting around the issue and appeasing extremism? Any so-called “blasphemy law” is against the principle of free speech, period. Religion cannot be allowed to trump the rights guaranteed by the constitution in a true democracy. This means that Muslims, like everyone else in a democracy, must learn to be offended and swallow it. People can sue for defamation in a civil action and win damages, but there is no “punishment” as in a criminal case. That’s a sign of a mature society.
For the record, I think the Indian government is among the most cowardly in this regard. They are quick to ban books and movies that religious bigots (whether Hindu or Muslim) object to. Surprisingly, they stood up to the Christians who wanted the movie “The Da Vinci Code” banned. If Christians in India had been more numerous and prone to violence, the government would have banned that movie too. On this issue (of sacrificing the constitutional guarantee of freedom of expression to appease religious sentiments), I am prepared to agree with India’s critics that it is not a true democracy
.
Regards,
Ganesh Prasad
Mortal
Every individual is accountable for his actions in every society, the Islamabad shooter is similar to Arizona shooter who opened fire in a political rally and injured a congresswoman and killing 6 others. Like Pakistan, the political rhetoric is heated up in US as well. This itself is a normal process, what is wrong in Pakistan is clearly more divisions and some parties resorting to violence. You are right, all is not lost in Pakistan.
G Prasad has spoken
You speak against the queen and the UK police would take you straight in custody and put you in prison for your own custody. There are laws to protect the population of a democratic country against trouble makers. Only some countries, including the USA is plain behind the civilised societies. There is a law in Austria and Germany against those who deny the holocaust! Freedom of speach, must consider the rights of the listener.
I may not agree with certain laws of a country which the legislators bring in to tackle their citizens. I would not demonstrate against the Govt. in India so that the police does not use their sticks or bullets against me. Nor would I take part in peaceful demonstrations in several European countries not to fall prey of Police brutality. Did you say “freedom of Speach”. The democratically elected Govt. desides what comes under Freedom of Speach and what amounts to agitation and trouble making. Not you Mr Prasad, wherever you are living?
Have a nice day.
Rex Minor
The man from the wilderness of Canada has again spoken!
Pakistani cricketers praying on the cricket ground has appalled him. The guy, if he is a genuine sikh, supposedly demonstrates his loyalty for his religion from head to toe or vice a versa, and armed with little miniature weapons, has the audicity to speak against people praying in an open environament. I am not a Pakistani but a muslim, and yet when I saw a fellow traveller Hindu with his wife sitting next to me on AIR france flight from New york, once covering his head saying his prayers during the Flight. I weas not appalled but considered myself blessed travelling with such an individual.
And those christian football players, who kiss the cross and pray few words and then enter the footbal ground every saturday afternoon, do not disturb me or upset me. To the contrary, it stregnthens my soul to know that evil is at bay during the prayers time.
what category of people are appearing on this blog? My God, Reuters was a religious man so I am told. If this continues I have to find some other spot, I said it before but somehow stayed on.
On a serious note, I genuinely feel sorry for the guy who has not only lost his relatives and home but has become allergic to other people’s prayers in the process. My advice to him, do not ever travel to Europe at least on Sunday where the faithful christians are heddled together and praying to the God aginst the evil.
Rex Minor
PS
I do not believe that Pakistan has committed genocide, nor have I yet sighted the copy of the Pakistan Govt. enquiry report which was referred to. I do, however, condemn any killings by the army , particularly of hindu minorities which is mentioned in several statements.
@KPSingh: I agree with you that the Pakistani army is the only entity which can cleanse Pakistan of extremism (I think I said the same thing in an earlier response to Umair). The PA needs to take urgent radical steps to take on the extremist forces & uplift the silent & scared moderate majority.
@Ganesh: You said it! Blasphemy laws have no place in a civilized society.
@Umair: You have drawn a parallel between the Arizona shooting & Salman Taseer’s assasination. Although, on the surface they might appear similar, they are actually very different. One is a case of paranoid schizophrenia & the other is a case of radicalization. Jared Loughner (the arizona shooter) is a mentally disturbed individual, who just wanted to kill someone in order to vent out his bottled rage & he ended up killing a bunch of innocent bystanders, including a 9 yr old girl. Mumtaz Qadri on the other hand, is the quintesstential child of Zia & a product of a radicalized society. To most poeple, even more shocking than the assasination, is the support which Qadri has recieved from a large segment of Pakistani society. You can be rest assured that even the most radical of right wingers in the US will not condone the arizona shooting. Jared Loughner is a lone wolf while there’s a whole eneration of Mumtaz Qadris in Pakistan. So, while the arizona shooting is reflective of individual sick minds in a society, Taseer’s assasination is reflective of a society which has gotten sick.
correction: whole *generation of Mumtaz Qadris.
Rex Minor said:
> You speak against the queen and the UK police would take you straight in custody and put you in prison for your own custody.
Not true. People in the UK speak out against royalty all the time, sometimes in very crude ways, and their right to expression is *protected*.
> The democratically elected Govt. desides what comes under Freedom of Speach and what amounts to agitation and trouble making. Not you Mr Prasad, wherever you are living?
No, the constitution of the country decides what freedom of speech is, not the government or an individual like myself. Courts exist to curb the ability of governments to violate this freedom.
Regards,
Ganesh Prasad
Ganesh Prasad: “No, the constitution of the country decides what freedom of speech is, not the government or an individual like myself. Courts exist to curb the ability of governments to violate this freedom.”
It amazes me that there are many in Pakistan who have no idea how the outside world is and their vision is skewed by assumptions and what they have been told. Even after going abroad, some of these individuals carry on with this mindset and refuse to change. There is no willingness to change the perspective. In the long run, people become emotional and defensive. I am wondering what kind of damage Zia-Ul-Haq’s legacy has done to Pakistan. Radicalization has nothing to do with one’s level of education or status in a society. Ignorance is preserved at all costs these people grow up blind. This is the danger that the world has to address. Seeing some of the responses from the other side really makes me worried.
Interesting read
“Could Bilawal and Rahul step in?” by Jawed Naqvi
http://www.dawn.com/2011/01/13/could-bil awal-and-rahul-step-in.html
From the article:
“CONSIDERING the dire straits that India and Pakistan are in today with their respective versions of religious insanity, who can deny the urgent need to sink mutual differences and bail out together before the gathering storm swamps both.
The religious right in both countries has nurtured a hidden alliance and each half screwdriver turn of madness by one has given vital oxygen to the other. Both need to be rooted out before they take over.
Call it desperation or realism, but there is no denying that the conventional secular leadership on both sides has had its say on approaches to combating terror and they have landed us in an untenable mess. That`s reason enough to risk a radical if uncertain change. That`s why Rahul Gandhi and Bilawal Bhutto might do well to exchange notes for a badly needed joint approach to fighting religious terror and other barbaric traditions that stalk both countries.”
@Ganesh
Sorry to butt in, but a small correction. The Parliament (and not Govt.) of the country can ammend the constitution any time. I am not sure of European countries but in India to ammed constitution, the ammendment bill needs to be cleared by AT LEAST 75% of the Parliament members, which in turn technically means that govt CANNOT ammend constitution at will but it can be done ONLY when 3/4 of the nation wants it.
Probably thats the trouble with Pakistan that majority does not know what it wants really.
It’s not a good analogy to compare the shooting of Salman Taseer with the Arizona shooting. The more apt comparison to the hardline Pakistani public response to Taseer’s killing is the US public attitude to Wikileaks’s founder Julian Assange. People from politicians to radio talk show hosts were baying for his blood. They would definitely have cheered if someone had killed him. In that sense, the US is really not that much different from Pakistan. The populace just responds to a different set of buttons, that’s all. Press those buttons, and the rule of law, the presumption of innocence and due process go out of the window.
For the record, I oppose both sets of extremists. Call me a First Amendment Absolutist in American terms. I believe that nothing – *nothing* – should constrain the freedom of speech and expression. I therefore don’t believe Wikileaks did anything wrong, and I don’t believe that a blasphemy law should exist. None of these people deserves to die, not Julian Assange, not Asia Bibi, and not Salman Taseer.
Regards,
Ganesh Prasad
Thanks for the link, Rehmat.
> Interesting read
> “Could Bilawal and Rahul step in?” by Jawed Naqvi
It is indeed an intriguing possibility. Stranger things have happened.
Regards,
Ganesh Prasad
Here in Pakistan, there is no room for extremism and People of Pakistan are peace loving Nation.Minorities enjoys same environment as other Moriarty Muslims.
@Ganesh
“I don’t believe that a blasphemy law should exist”
Your name gives me intution that you are a Hindu (or more specifically follower of Sanaatana religion, I may be wrong though); so now tell me your views about a Muslim painter painting nude pics of Hindu Goddesses. Does he deserved to be kicked out of the nation?? Does he deserved to be put in jails despite that there are no such blasphemy laws in India?? Before pointing fingers we must look inside ourself.
Welcome to the land of the oldest democracy in the western world.
Sorry Mr Prasad, I did not mention the royalty, but the Queen, the sovereign of the United Kingdom and its colonies and the head of the commonwealth
The United Kingdom does not have a written constitution either, and is governed based on its traditions and practices. This is simply to ensure that nothing what they did in their history is challenged by the coming generations.
In the Uk you say anything deragotry to an individual and you would land in the court, let alone making blesphamic comments about any religion.
The UK Govt. has even refused entry to the right wing Dutch parliamenterian in the UK, who is on a crusade mission against Islam.
You are probably referring to Press freedom? Any libel statement in the media can also be challenged, however, the royalty has the tradition not to address the court against the Queen’s subjects. I could though and would, but the process is very costly.
The publications of the illegaly obtained documents by Assange has given a new dimension to the use or misuse of media, some would say is the challenge of the 21st century to the democratic Govts. We must all remember that before we claim our rights, there are duties as well which every citizen is obliged to follow.
Rex Minor
PS
Pakistan media is the smartest, urdu press for the domestic audience and the english newspapers for the foreign consumption.
, once you see Mr Assange was to any trouble maker or agitator even refused the permission
PS last sentence is garbled notes and went in involuntarily.
Mortal:
“Although, on the surface they might appear similar, they are actually very different. One is a case of paranoid schizophrenia & the other is a case of radicalization. Jared Loughner (the arizona shooter) is a mentally disturbed individual”
-Mortal, you know Sarah Palin’s “blood libel” remark has proven to backfire her effort to minimize the damage. Instead, it has been used to attack the Republicans and the debate goes on and the rhetoric remains heated. I could similarly argue that Mumtaz Qadri was mentally under the influence of a cleric’s sermons and acted in a state of disillusion, his act will certainly not earn him paradise. My point is that the US society is also suffering from partisan divisions between liberals and conservatives. However this is not an excuse for us not to put our house in order. I diagree that an entire society should be held responsible for the acts of an individual. In responsible society every individual is accountable for his actions.
I agree with Umair. Ganesh has already indicated in his recent post that reactions depend on issues and issues vary from one country to another.
Ganesh had mentioned about American response to Wikileaks vis-a-vis blasphemy law response in Pakistan.
No one is perfect. And the US does have their conservatives. Try amending the gun law there and see what happens.
I’d say anyone radicalized is mentally sick. There is no difference between a brainwashed person and a schizophrenic. One develops into a maniac through improper exposure and build up. The other is born that way. Both can hurt in unpredictable ways.
The US is a great country. But it has the dubious record of being the only nation to have used two nuclear bombs on civilian populations.
I was in the US when 9/11 happened and I remember the response towards Muslims or anyone who looked like Muslims or if their names sounding like Muslims. When emotions take over, no one seems to care about equality, fairness, rights etc. It is true all across the world.
The goal now is to help the moderate Muslims across the world and prevent the radicals from succeeding in the process of alienating the moderates to their side. People are asking questions to the moderates for the actions of the radicals. And that is the starting point.
In the US, people are really miffed about job loss due to out sourcing and illegal immigration. It would be interesting to see public response if one of the Michigan militia members or one from the Aryan nations or KKK decides to take out a few of them with his automatic rifle. I am sure the American public might sympathize with the militia man. If the economy really went down and emotions run high, those who manage to do well or succeed that come from different backgrounds will become targets. I am a Sikh and our community always lives under this fear everywhere including India. Hence my sensitivity and awareness to the potential of becoming a target community.
@”The more apt comparison to the hardline Pakistani public response to Taseer’s killing is the US public attitude to Wikileaks’s founder Julian Assange. People from politicians to radio talk show hosts were baying for his blood. They would definitely have cheered if someone had killed him.” Posted by prasadgc
There were a couple of right wing nut job radio hosts in the south, who said the Assange should be assasinated but to say that that is the sentiment of the American people, in general, would be wrong. Most Americans want Assange to be tried in some court of law and not murdered. Having said that, I don’t think that comparing Salman Taseer to Julian Assange makes much sense, one championed the cause of minorities & the other leaked classified information to the world for personal gains. If someone hacks into my personal email & financial accounts & broadcasts that info to the world, I would not consider it as “figure of speech”. I believe, the Australian public has a different perspective on the wikileaks issue & have a soft corner for Mr. Assange, since he’s australian.
@”My point is that the US society is also suffering from partisan divisions between liberals and conservatives.”
Posted by Umairpk
It always has & it always will but neither the staunchest of conservatives nor liberals support any kind of violence to intimidate/overpower the other. There will always be fringe elements & sick lone wolves who chose to act on their own but by and large, an overwhelming majority settle their differences with ballot rather than bullet. I agree that American society is far from perfect & there are extremist elements that need to be tackled but the problem is far more profound & serious in Pakistan. There’s no comparison.
@”There is no difference between a brainwashed person and a schizophrenic.” Posted by KPSingh01
I disagree. Schiszophrenia is a serious mental illness & greatly impairs one’s ability to think & act rationally whereas a brainwashed person suffers from no such impairment but chooses to be influenced (for a variety of reasons).
@”I am a Sikh and our community always lives under this fear everywhere including India. Hence my sensitivity and awareness to the potential of becoming a target community.”
Don’t lose sleep KP. Nobody is targeting sikhs or the Indian community in general, here in the US. While no one can ever be completely secure from individual hate crimes, you can be rest assured that law enforcement agencies are competent & vigilant enough to thwart organized attacks on any minority group by any white supremist group.