Pakistan: Now or Never?
Perspectives on Pakistan
Pakistan and the taboo of secularism
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For everyone trying to understand the implications of Salman Taseer’s assassination, this essay from 2007 is good place to start (h/t Abu Muqawama). “The Politics of God” is about why Europe decided, after years of warfare over the correct interpretation of Christianity, to separate church and state. But it is also relevant to Pakistan, where the killing of the Punjab governor over his opposition to the country’s blasphemy laws has shown that what was left of Pakistani secularism, is, if not dead, at least in intensive care.
Read the opening paragraph to understand why it resonates:
“For more than two centuries, from the American and French Revolutions to the collapse of Soviet Communism, world politics revolved around eminently political problems. War and revolution, class and social justice, race and national identity — these were the questions that divided us. Today, we have progressed to the point where our problems again resemble those of the 16th century, as we find ourselves entangled in conflicts over competing revelations, dogmatic purity and divine duty. We in the West are disturbed and confused. Though we have our own fundamentalists, we find it incomprehensible that theological ideas still stir up messianic passions, leaving societies in ruin. We had assumed this was no longer possible, that human beings had learned to separate religious questions from political ones, that fanaticism was dead. We were wrong.”
The point of highlighting this essay is not to argue that Pakistan should emulate the west, nor indeed that secularism is necessarily the answer, but rather to suggest that there is still a debate to be had in a country where even using the word secular is becoming taboo. (And before anyone accuses me of orientalism, the advantage of looking at it through the lens of European history is that it also strips out some of the other factors which contribute to the nature of Pakistani society today — the war in Afghanistan, America’s response to 9/11, the role of the army, its past use of militant proxies, the weakness of its civilian governments, the fragility of the economy etc, etc).
As the blogger kala kawa put it, ”too much space has been ceded. Too much PUBLIC space has been ceded. This debate cannot go underground. It must not be behind closed doors. We don’t have guns, and we don’t have bombs, and we don’t even want to kill anyone. We just want to talk it out. Unfortunately, that’s enough for them to want to kill us.”
Or to quote Pakistan’s ideological father, Ellama Mohammad Iqbal, himself not a secularist, in one of his early letters: “Let the many-headed monster of public (opinion) give their dross of respect to others who act and live in accordance with their false ideals of religion and morality. I cannot stoop to respect their conventions which suppress the innate freedom of man’s mind.”
So back to Europe and “The Politics of God”. Author Mark Lilla traces the separation of church and state to the 17th century, at a time when Christians had wearied themselves with killing other Christians — just as much of today’s violence is a battle within Islam. In his treatise “Leviathan”, the English philosopher Thomas Hobbes laid down the idea that men would only be free of fear and war if they created political institutions without grounding them in religion.
“This liberal-democratic order is the only one we in the West recognize as legitimate today, and we owe it primarily to Hobbes. In order to escape the destructive passions of messianic faith, political theology centered on God was replaced by political philosophy centered on man. This was the Great Separation,” writes Lilla.
Do read the whole essay, but I want to scroll forward now to what Lilla had to say about the 1930s. It struck me as particularly interesting since that is where the idea of Pakistan finds its ideological moorings (for those who don’t know, this blog, Pakistan: Now or Never, is named after a 1933 pamphlet calling for the creation of Pakistan).
According to Lilla, the idea of political theology never really disappeared in the west with the separation of church and state, just as the human impulse to religious faith never disappears. But it reappeared in a particularly distorted form in Europe after World War One in ”messianic” notions of how to transform society. And it reappeared especially in Weimar in Germany where that messianic faith in the possibility of human redemption, he argues, led to Nazism.
“All of which served to confirm Hobbes’s iron law: Messianic theology eventually breeds messianic politics. The idea of redemption is among the most powerful forces shaping human existence in all those societies touched by the biblical tradition. It has inspired people to endure suffering, overcome suffering and inflict suffering on others. It has offered hope and inspiration in times of darkness; it has also added to the darkness by arousing unrealistic expectations and justifying those who spill blood to satisfy them. All the biblical religions cultivate the idea of redemption, and all fear its power to inflame minds and deafen them to the voice of reason. In the writings of these Weimar figures, we encounter what those orthodox traditions always dreaded: the translation of religious notions of apocalypse and redemption into a justification of political messianism, now under frightening modern conditions. It was as if nothing had changed since the 17th century, when Thomas Hobbes first sat down to write his ‘Leviathan’.”
Many of the men who fought for the creation of Pakistan lived or studied in Europe and cannot have been immune to the political influences sweeping the region in those fateful years after World War One. At the time Europe was reeling from the sheer scale of death wrought by the war and looking for other ways to structure its political systems. It was a time where people believed again in the possibility of an idealised and perfectible society, rather as they had done in medieval Europe when they fought over Christianity. Communism and international socialism was one such ideal. Fascism was another. It was only after the trauma of World War Two that modern liberal - and secular - democracy, really took root in Europe (and since it has been going for only 60 years, a short space of time compared to centuries of history, it’s impossible to predict whether it has taken root for good.)
It was in that feverish atmosphere that Choudhary Rahmat Ali’ proclaimed in ”Now or Never” – written in Cambridge, England - that the Muslims of South Asia might ”live or perish for ever” if they did not stand up for their faith and the existence of Pakistan. It is a fear that has found expression nowadays in an intense anti-Americanism. (Interestingly, he also complains that Muslims were in danger of being sacrificed by their “so-called leaders”, who had gone along ”without any protest or demur” with plans for a united independent India, a criticism also levelled at today’s leaders for cooperating with the United States.)
Iqbal believed that only Islam, with its internationalist outlook and faith in common humanity, could break down the barriers of race and national greed which had led to World War One.
And in 1933, he wrote admiringly of Italian dictator Mussolini as an example of the essence of Islamic economics, which was ”to render the growth of large capitals impossible. Mussolini and Hitler think in the same way. Bolshevism has gone to the extreme of abolishing capitalism altogether. In all aspects of life, Islam always takes the middle course.”
Yet Iqbal was also a scholar, who credited early Islamic scholarship, and its capacity for inductive rather than deductive reasoning, with laying the philosophical groundwork for European humanism — the same kind of reasoning that led Hobbes to reject the politics of religion. Somewhere in that capacity for intellectual thought, and what he called “the innate freedom of man’s mind”, lies the space for debate.
(File photo of the grave dug for an earlier victim of violence in Pakistan)
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Ignorance is the garden which allows the growth of repression, cruelty and subversion of the human spirit and subversion of the ability to love all of humanity.
777xxx777: “PEOPLE, the COMMON MAN is IGNORANT. Worried too much for mosque and temple but not for roads, healthcare and agriculture. As are the people so are the governments.”
People like Jinnah, Milosevich, Mao, Stalin, Bal Thackeray, Mobutu, Narendra Modi etc were/are the ones driving the common people. Common people are like sheep. They have their values and wisdom. But they get driven around by those who control the knobs. It is these people who drive up their personal agenda while using some cause. They all use violence wherever needed. Common man has no answer to carefully orchestrated violence. Police are emasculated and justice system is choked. When that is the case, common man wants to run and hide under the table somewhere. He has family to take care of. It is those who drive others, the manipulators that must be restricted. Everyone wants to live in peace, if you allow them to.
KP:”People like Jinnah, Milosevich, Mao, Stalin, Bal Thackeray, Mobutu, Narendra Modi etc were/are the ones driving the common people.”
-How can you even equate Jinnah with the rest? you are simply out of your mind or you have a lot of grudge against Jinnah.
@Rex
“Since all of you guys are very wise now after the event. tell me, do the people or a section of the people do not have the right in a democracy to separate and go independent. I do not have any problem with Sudan split in two countries, if the christians of the south decide to separate.”
***I think KP’s question “what does this accomplish?” was the answer to this.
At least people here are wise after the event, but how do you explain your above suggestion when you know Pakistan, where Muslim leaders thought separation is best for them, has MISERABLY failed. The suggestion that Sikhs have right to have Khalistan goes against the logic which even you agree to that separation based on religion does not work and Pakistan is a classical case in point.
For the sake of argument let us say Sikhs have the right to fight for freedom. Who is supporting this movement? No sane person was supporting it at that time even. The argument is about the reaction. A nation carved out of reaction will not be peaceful with neighbors.
Army action that led to killing of terrorists (freedom fighters for you) and innocents, and killings of Sikh innocents in 1984 riots also do not justify a new nation. Reaction was bound to be there and it happened—assassination of Indian PM and much more which you might not know—Punjab CM, and another prominent political leader of Punjab (I forgot the name now), Indian Army Chief at the time of Op Blue Star Vaidhya.
The way those Khalistan “freedom fighters” (terrorists to me) wanted to achieve a “Sikh Nation” was by hijacking buses and killing people of a certain community. Those innocent Sikhs who died in Golden Temple or in Delhi riots were not supporters of those dead terrorists but despised them. Who is being supported with the suggestion to make Khalistan then.
Moreover, where is the need of co-existence if everyone has to form a nation?
Getting back to your original question, plural democracy like India calls for co-existence and it gives the right to split states based upon local political needs. It has been happening—UP was split, Bihar was split, Punjab was split to make smaller manageable states. Making nations everyday is not child’s play. You may not have problems with it but those who live around here would face the consequence.
@Rex
Correction:
“Reaction was bound to be there and it happened—assassination of Indian PM and ASSASSINATIONS of many more which you might not know—Punjab CM, another prominent political leader of Punjab (I forgot the name now), Indian Army Chief at the time of Op Blue Star Vaidhya.
@KP
“Common people are like sheep. They have their values and wisdom. But they get driven around by those who control the knobs.”
Ohh come on till when can we keep on blaming leaders for our own narrow mindedness. Jinnah and Indira were not powers but the people behind them were the powers who were fools enough to not be able to see their real motives. If you keep asking for better leaders then we are heading no where. Keep praying for another Gandhi and live in gutters for centuries. It is our nation and everyone has to take care of his/her responsibilities towards it. And those responsibilities include upholding secular co-existence and nullifying bigotry. Putting pressure on politicians to do development work and not spend on wars. Did you ever thought why selling war is bad idea in India but not in Pakistan? How is that people in India just do not buy war and people in Pakistan so easily do?? As are the people so are the governments.
@KP
Rehmat has said very well above. Not a major population of Sikhs, yes ordinary common man, did not supported Khalistan and so it never happened. Not majority in Kashmir support separation from India and so it will never happen. IA presence in Kashmir is needed to ward of PA adventures in valley and of late there have been proxy wars from ISI that try to make a horrible face of IA so as to defame IA and India in general. We can see the reactions of people like Rex who sit in Europe derive most of knowledge about India from idiot box and meditations and make a monster out of India. ISI has succeeded in SHOWING India a monster to world. But will never succeed in snatching Kashmir from India because Kashmiris just do not want to be separated (especially not now, given the difference in economic levels of India and Pakistan).
Umairpk: “How can you even equate Jinnah with the rest? you are simply out of your mind or you have a lot of grudge against Jinnah.”
Because he was responsible for the deaths of at least two million people and those who lost everything – their properties, wealth, family members and had to live the memories of horror that happened. Jinnah got what he wanted – Rising a flag as a head of state. He had no more agenda. He simply said Pakistan would be secular, while campaigning prior to partition that Muslims will never live under Hindus. He is directly responsible for the people of the two countries looking at each other as the worst enemies, armed with nuclear weapons and standing perilously on the edge. All the guys I have listed could have carved out a nation for themselves and kept their people in a perpetual conflict.
I was not even born when Jinnah died. Therefore I have nothing personal against him. But the truth is that Jinnah is as much a crook and a politician as any other opportunist in South Asia and beyond. He offered nothing at the end. Pakistan’s internal turmoil is his legacy.
There are people who still adore Hitler and Stalin. That does not make these megalomaniacs any better humans.
777xxx777: “Ohh come on till when can we keep on blaming leaders for our own narrow mindedness. Jinnah and Indira were not powers but the people behind them were the powers who were fools enough to not be able to see their real motives.”
If I use your logic, then no one needs leaders, MPs or Prime Ministers. People can do it all themselves. We humans are hierarchical animals. Leaders happen on their own in a crowd of people. It is the leaders to whom common folk listen to for inspiration and motivation. Where do charisma and personality matter? Leaders have mass appeal. What they desire, their people do it for them. This does not mean people are brainless. It is just that their desires and feelings are aligned with others and there is someone to project them better than they do. So leaders run the show. That is the reality. You are seeking an ideal condition that does not exist.
“If you keep asking for better leaders then we are heading no where.”
Abraham Lincoln was a leader. He led his country out of a deadly civil war. Martin Luther King, Nelson Mandela, Gandhi, Dalai Lama, are all leaders. It is they who have brought sanity to the world. Without them, this world would have been completely annihilated.
“Keep praying for another Gandhi and live in gutters for centuries.”
You say the above and then go on to say,
“It is our nation and everyone has to take care of his/her responsibilities towards it.”
Which is what Gandhi preached. He said, “become the change that you expect in others”. Gandhi cleaned his own toilet to show how everyone should take responsibility for themselves.
“And those responsibilities include upholding secular co-existence and nullifying bigotry.”
Shambhala will come one day. You might have to live for another thousand years for that. Good luck.
“Putting pressure on politicians to do development work and not spend on wars.”
One more Mumbai style attack on India and you will be singing a different tune. Wars get imposed on people sometimes. 9/11 was a taunt to the US and it responded with full public support. The US never wanted to get involved in WW II until the Japanese hit Pearl Harbor. We are not living in an ideal world. There are forces around that will lot let you live in peace. One needs to be prepared to swat the flies that keep coming. Or you will be consumed by them.
“Did you ever thought why selling war is bad idea in India but not in Pakistan? How is that people in India just do not buy war and people in Pakistan so easily do?? As are the people so are the governments.”
I think you have a very limited understanding of how things work. I am not going to lecture you on it here. Talking secularism is all easy. When emotions fly high, most humans become animals, including those living in free, democratic, advanced societies.
777xxx777: “Not a major population of Sikhs, yes ordinary common man, did not supported Khalistan and so it never happened.”
Most people who lived in the regions that became Pakistan did not want partition either. But Pakistan happened. This does not mean those people are fools. Violence needs very few people to drive others around. A few criminals are enough to wreak havoc. That is the principle every selfish leader has relied on including Jinnah, Narendra Modi, Jagdeesh Tytlor, Bal Thackeray and so on. You need a few wolves to drive the entire pack helter skelter.
“Not majority in Kashmir support separation from India and so it will never happen. IA presence in Kashmir is needed to ward of PA adventures in valley and of late there have been proxy wars from ISI that try to make a horrible face of IA so as to defame IA and India in general.”
Kashmir is a pure geo-political issue and it has nothing to do with religion or people. I am not going to discuss it here. No one is a fool here.
“We can see the reactions of people like Rex who sit in Europe derive most of knowledge about India from idiot box and meditations and make a monster out of India.”
If he chooses to hide under his shroud, that is his freedom. Let him close his eyes and blame the sun for not dispelling darkness.
“ISI has succeeded in SHOWING India a monster to world. But will never succeed in snatching Kashmir from India because Kashmiris just do not want to be separated (especially not now, given the difference in economic levels of India and Pakistan).”
Now you are getting emotional and there are manipulative people who can exploit that. You won’t even know you have been taken by their spell.
@KP
“Leaders happen on their own in a crowd of people”
And so the overall quality of crowd needs to improve. Agree??
“Most people who lived in the regions that became Pakistan did not want partition either”
How are you so sure of that the muslims living in Pakistan region before 1947 did not wanted partition?? I have lived in Punjab during height of militancy and Op. Blue Star so I do know the sentiment of ordinary common folks of that time. If that is the case with you in case of partition and muslims in Pakistan region then I take your word otherwise not.
“Now you are getting emotional and there are manipulative people who can exploit that”
Probably you did not read what I wrote in brackets.
Anyway since we do not agree on this and will probably never agree and because you are some super genius and I have no knowledge of how things work then there is no point taking discussion forward. Both of us should try to do what we wish to see. On my part I will try to be better citizen and you can try to find or become a good politician. Adieu!!
@KPS and 777
At the risk of hurting myself in crossfire between KPS and 777
, I don’t see much difference in what you 2 are saying.
KPS says: “Common people are like sheep. They have their values and wisdom. But they get driven around by those who control the knobs.”
777 says “Ohh come on till when can we keep on blaming leaders for our own narrow mindedness. Jinnah and Indira were not powers but the people behind them were the powers who were fools enough to not be able to see their real motives”
Looking at above, KP believes leaders drive people around like sheep to get what they want. 777 provides a solution to the problem that as long as crowd does not understand the “real motives” of these political leaders (because crowd is like “sheep” according to KPS), this will continue. I see an agreement here.
Perhaps history repeats itself because leaders do not learn from their past actions and crowd is irresponsible in not reminding leaders well in time, rather supporting them for wrong decisions.
I am out of here.
777xxx777: “”Leaders happen on their own in a crowd of people””
“And so the overall quality of crowd needs to improve. Agree??”
Not necessarily. Gandhi, Buddha, Jesus etc came and went. Has that changed the overall quality of the people? They have come to remind people of their deviation from human values.
“How are you so sure of that the muslims living in Pakistan region before 1947 did not wanted partition??”
There are several books on partition of the sub-continent. You can read any of them. Regions like Punjab did not buy Jinnah’s logic that Muslims would be dominated by the Hindu majority. They were a majority in their own regions and they did not feel the need to fear the Hindus. For centuries they had lived with non-Muslims in their midst. Khan Abdul Gaffar Khan, also known as the Frontier Gandhi was against partition. This gave a lot of heartache to the British. Pathans did not want to be subservient to the Punjabi dominated Muslim Pakistan. One of the rumors is that the British military chief of the new independent Pakistan decided to unleash them into Kashmir to diffuse this tension. When a referendum was held in Muslim majority regions for Jinnah’s campaign, it experienced a miserable outcome. Less than 35% of the voters chose Pakistan. Please read the history books. There is plenty of information. A lot has happened between 1947 and now. Sentiments have changed because of all those events.
“because you are some super genius and I have no knowledge of how things work then there is no point taking discussion forward. Both of us should try to do what we wish to see. On my part I will try to be better citizen and you can try to find or become a good politician.”
I do read a lot. Therefore I am unable to buy your logic. Hence my disagreements with you. However, there is no need to finger point at others when arguments get emotional. It is not my intention to expose anyone’s ignorance. All of us are doing it ourselves.
@KP
“Not necessarily. Gandhi, Buddha, Jesus etc came and went. Has that changed the overall quality of the people”
Sorry you did not understand my original question. You said “Leaders happen on their own in a crowd of people” and so my logic was that since u say leaders come out of crowds then that same crowd needs to constantly keep working towards its own improvement so as to have improved leaders over and over. A crowd of blind will choose a man with one eye as leader whereas a crowd of people with both eyes will choose a leader with clearest vision (of course given that leaders are made/elected based on vision) just a metaphor to explain my point…do I need to tell??
“I do read a lot.”
I admire that very much!
“Therefore I am unable to buy your logic. Hence my disagreements with you”
I am fine with that.
“However, there is no need to finger point at others when arguments get emotional. It is not my intention to expose anyone’s ignorance. All of us are doing it ourselves.”
You were the one who said ’777 knows little’ given that both of us are Indians and living in around same region in north India. Do you really think you have any point in saying that I know little? But yes irrespective of your comments I should have used better language than what I did. Will try to improve myself
@Rehmat
“At the risk of hurting myself in crossfire between KPS and 777
, I don’t see much difference in what you 2 are saying.”
Ha ha ha. Don’t worry you are probably more intelligent than both of us. Even I have been trying hard to tell KP that difference is not much. Anyway, thanks for connecting mine and KP’s points. Love your intellect man.
“I am out of here.”
Ohh no don’t go..your comments are always welcome
777xxx777: “You said “Leaders happen on their own in a crowd of people” and so my logic was that since u say leaders come out of crowds then that same crowd needs to constantly keep working towards its own improvement so as to have improved leaders over and over.”
Crowds do not have much influence on those who emerge as leaders. They generally come up with dramatic ideas and principles. Gandhi was more of an exception than the norm. So when he did what he did, they had huge impact on the society. Many had never realized the power of non-violent protests. Non-violence is there in the scriptures and the most common people never took to it. It needed a leader to come out and demonstrate that. The crowd improves because of such leaders and not the other way around. Common people doubt the practicality of many things. Leaders show them that what they think as impossible is possible. Many Indians had no interest in an independent India. Most were happy working for the British and leaving all affairs to them. Somehow they found a structure and order that they had missed from their kings and zameendars. The British were swindling the country. But the average Indian did not care. The British provided a common front which diffused all the lingering issues between various opposing groups. Gandhi, Nehru etc saw that Indians did not deserve to live as subservient coolies. And they instigated a small percentage of people who sacrificed their lives, wealth, career etc to stand up against the British.
My general observation is that more education and awareness can make people more urban and sophisticated. And such people become too individualistic, cynical and selfish. Ruthlessness and indifference towards others take root. Class discrimination begins to dominate. And things go in a different direction from there on. There is a reason why religion, culture, social values etc exist. They are there to contain people from becoming too advanced or too backward. They are also there to provide solace and strength during difficult times. Emotions cannot be overcome by pills or higher education. Religion does provide the cushion needed when dire circumstances are faced. Feelings cannot be overcome by rationalizing. That is why Gandhi not only led people in a pacific resistance movement, he also relied on religion, social changes and community based approach. It was needed during his time.
Humans are strange animals. The fail when they tread on extremes of advancement and backwardness. This is like choosing utter socialism or capitalism. Both can lead to misery. Societies have to choose somewhere in between. The same with extreme intellectualism and close minded blind faith. Religions and cultures offer that buffer. Thus we get a mix of everything – foolish to clever. It is the way things are. We cannot change this human trait no matter how much we try.
“A crowd of blind will choose a man with one eye as leader whereas a crowd of people with both eyes will choose a leader with clearest vision (of course given that leaders are made/elected based on vision) just a metaphor to explain my point…do I need to tell??”
It depends upon how emotional people are. When people get emotional, they can elect Sarah Palin. When they are feeling great, they can elect Jim Carey. Clinton came to power because people were hurt by economic misery under George Bush. Obama came to power because people were fed up with an idiot. This does not make Americans as idiots. Elections of leaders are driven by local emotions a lot. The only advantage in a democracy is that people can elect a different leader if they choose to. Indira Gandhi/Rajeev Gandhi etc won more by charisma rather than anything else. And the alternatives to them were not any better. So charisma won. For the past two decades we have not seen much from the Nehru dynasty and people have had a chance to try other parties and leaders. And most people are still backward and illiterate. But they have the wisdom to try new leaders. When Rahul Gandhi is ready, it will all change again. But that is life.
Anyway it was a great discussion with you. Thanks.
@Rehmat
I tell you what your problem is that You are too clever, always trying to act like the devil’s advocate. I have no qualms about your comments, I fully agree.
I was not suggesting independance or separation for sikhs at all, but simply stating that in a democracy people have to be permitted to choose their course in history.
As I said I have no problem with christian population of Sudan separating from the North. But this does not mean that the new ‘C’ Sudan is going to perform better than the ‘M’ Sudan. Do you reckon Zimbabwe and South africans are performing better than in the past?
Pakistan experiment has met several setbacks, simply because the respective Govts have failed to reform their educational, judiciary and administrative institutions and relied very heavily on the use of military. They are still not sure whether their country is a muslim country based on the Islamic laws or a non Islamic laws?
India you state is a democracy, a secular and pluralistic one, and this is all positive to become a Nation. But you forgot to mention one ingredient, the use of military against its own population.
THIS VIOLATES UNIVERSAL HUMAN RIGHTS!
For how long do you reckon India is going to keep this instrument for suppression?
Rex Minor
@KP
Your post to 777 could easily go to print for distribution in worship places. A very good analogy. Educate the masses so that people are in a position to elect competent leaders! In Tunisia there is compulsary education upto the age of sixteen, introduced by their former President.
How do you stop irrational behaviour of the humans?
Rex Minor
PS
Is there nothing in your holy scriptures about God promised land for sikhs. The jews relied on their scriptures and even the UNO agreed to grant the the Palestinian land for one dollar, making millions of Palistinians homeless:
KPS
You are entitled to your opinion but you are not allowed to rewrite the history.
Now we are talking about Punjab before 1947. Punjab at that time was Muslim majority. Hindus were next and Sikh a significant minority. Most of the land owners were Muslims and Sikhs while Hindus controlled business and money. The ruling party was Unionists.
So who wanted Punjab divided? It is obvious that Congress wanted it, to maximize territorial control. The important question is Sikh politics at that time and what they gained and what they lost.
Sikh leaders of the time (Master Tara Sigh) took virulent anti Muslim stance. They made a deal with INC and you all know the resulting division and carnage. I know what promises to Sikhs were made but I let you tell every body what were the promises and how they were kept.
The Sikh conflict of eighties was the result of what happened in forties.
Indian nationalism and hatred for Pakistan will not heal your Punjab.
Death is a tragedy but the ultimate tragedy is death of a dream. The pain finds solace in drugs and slow death among living.
KP:”I was not even born when Jinnah died. Therefore I have nothing personal against him. But the truth is that Jinnah is as much a crook and a politician as any other opportunist in South Asia and beyond. He offered nothing at the end. Pakistan’s internal turmoil is his legacy. ”
-Sorry my friend, if you are mentally sick than I cant help you much. Jinnah was a great statesman of Muslims in subcontinent and founder of Pakistan. In history only a few men could achieve what he achieved.
On the contrary I would call the Congress hindu leaders as liars, conspirator and collaborators with the British and wanted to deprive the Muslim minority of their rights. Even today Indian Muslim actors can’t buy property in up market Mumbai. Afterall hindustan is a country of hindus primarily, I am glad Muslims got their own country carved out of India and Jinnah made that possible with his gut intelligence and ability.
Matrix:”Sikh leaders of the time (Master Tara Sigh) took virulent anti Muslim stance. They made a deal with INC and you all know the resulting division and carnage.”
-Looks as though they have kept their violent methods, and taken it to other countries:
CBC News – Montreal – Sikhs with kirpan not allowed in Quebec legislature
http://www.cbc.ca/canada/montreal/story/ 2011/01/18/sikhs-denied-entry-nat-ass-qu ebec.html
no civilized person can ever be allowed to brandish weapons in public service office anywhere.
Matrixx,
Different people have different opinions on partition of the sub-continent. I have mine and I’d never say that mine is the correct one. My opinion is based on my own search, understanding and analysis.
I strongly feel that people of the sub-continent should read a lot of history of the land. There have been many mistakes that have been buried one over the other. In order not to commit those mistakes again, knowing the history is very important.
In my opinion, Pakistan was a mistake. But that is my opinion. Along the same lines, I rate Jinnah as a crook and clever opportunist. To others, he might be God. It does not matter to me. As far as I am concerned, my analysis leads me to my own conclusions. And I am expressing them here. That’s all. I can never prove anyone wrong. I can at the most disagree with others.
Hope I have made myself clear. Here is a link that you might want to browse through and familiarize yourself:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Partition_o f_India
KP Singh
Umapripk: “no civilized person can ever be allowed to brandish weapons in public service office anywhere.”
Just like the burqa issue in France, Sikhs are required to carry five things with them at all things. Sword is one of them. Many carry a small one for symbolic reasons. But in Canada they have their rules and if they have a rule that women cannot wear the burqa or a Sikh cannot carry his sword in public places, then one is expected to honor that rule. I am with you on this.
Umairpk: “if you are mentally sick than I cant help you much.”
Thanks. I prefer being treated by doctors than by mentally sick patients.
“Jinnah was a great statesman of Muslims in subcontinent and founder of Pakistan. In history only a few men could achieve what he achieved.”
All this is talk. Jinnah achieved nothing. It has not made lives of the people any better. Muslims are not living in paradise by creating Pakistan. They slaughtered each other in Bengal. Now they are blowing each other up. His country is on the brink. If he did what he did just to score some points in history, he sure achieved that. But that’s not what nations are created for. They are created for the welfare of the people. Ask the Bengalis and they’d tell you that Pakistan surely was not for their welfare.
“On the contrary I would call the Congress hindu leaders as liars, conspirator and collaborators with the British and wanted to deprive the Muslim minority of their rights.”
No. Congress leaders wanted a secular country where all people had equal rights. They were socialists in nature and wanted feudal and princely systems dismantled and land distributed to the tillers. I would not deny corrupt politicians. They have been around since time immemorial. If Congress party had planned to deprive Muslims of their rights, India will not be having a Muslim population that is almost as big as that of Pakistan. And they are not living in concentration camps. There are troubled spots due to geo-political reasons. But misery is equally shared by most people, Muslims included.
“Even today Indian Muslim actors can’t buy property in up market Mumbai.”
Would you mind quoting a reference? Which actor are we talking about? Shah Rukh Khan, Feroz Khan, Salman Khan, Aamir Khan, Saif Ali Khan, Javed Akhtar, Shabana Azmi, Yusuf Bhai etc are all Bollywood actors and they live in their own mansions and apartments. No one even looks at their religion in India. We do not look at everything from a religious perspective. There are housing societies in many cities, where vegetarians live and they object to cooking meat or consuming alcohol. Some do not allow bachelors or single women. That is not discrimination. It is due to specific agreements that all residents of a place agree to.
“Afterall hindustan is a country of hindus primarily, I am glad Muslims got their own country carved out of India and Jinnah made that possible with his gut intelligence and ability.”
Sure he did. And that country fell apart in 1971 due to ethnic and linguistic chauvinism. An external enemy is constantly needed in order to keep Pakistanis united. I am sure a short sighted and selfish politician like Jinnah had no vision of long term repercussions of his ambitious acts.
India must face up to Hindu terrorism
by Kapil Komireddi The Guardian UK 19 Jan 2011
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/ belief/2011/jan/19/india-hindu-terrorism -threat?INTCMP=SRCH
The Indian state’s pro-Hindu stance has left it unwilling to tackle Hindu extremism.
“For far too long, the enduring response of the Indian establishment to Hindu nationalists has rarely surpassed mild scorn. Their organised violent eruptions across the country – slaughtering Muslims and Christians, destroying their places of worship, cutting open pregnant wombs – never seemed sufficient enough to the state to cast them as a meaningful threat to India’s national security.”
As the LeT has a free hand in Pakistan, similarly the RSS has complete freedom of movement in India. Both India and Pakistan states have home grown militant groups enjoying state patronage.
And frankly KPSingh, even though you call Jinnah a crook, still i think you are far better than those cold blooded killer hindu terrorists who are thirsty for Muslim blood in India.
KPSingh:”No. Congress leaders wanted a secular country where all people had equal rights. They were socialists in nature and wanted feudal and princely systems dismantled and land distributed to the tillers. I would not deny corrupt politicians. They have been around since time immemorial. If Congress party had planned to deprive Muslims of their rights, India will not be having a Muslim population that is almost as big as that of Pakistan.”
-Sure, sure great success India has a 150 million muslim population out of which 5% is educated and 2% has access to public services. Marginalized, called as fifth columnists of Pakistan and alienated India has been a hell for its Muslims. though very committed with India, Indian Muslims have achieved nothing. They are just folks like us, I keep a note of 10 Indian Rupees in my wallet as a token of friendship, a Muslim friend I made in UAE and we exchanged Indian and Pakistani rupee notes. Look, we have to leave the past and look towards the future if we want to move on. When blasts took place in India, ISI was blamed. Swami Aseemanand confessions clarify hindu terrorists are at work. We need to rein in the extremists on either side of the border.
KPS
It is sad that you refuse to look at a few bitter questions about Punjab but want to discuss Jinnah and Bengal.
You ask me to go to Wikipedia. Why would I do that when I know Punjab history passed down by my own family from Dinanagar in Grudaspur area. Most of them barely escaped a few miles to Pakistan and lost every thing in process. There are thousands who did not escape the organized bloodshed. Bravo secular India.
You study Wikipedia and rewrite to your satisfaction but the fact remains that Sikh community is among living dead and if you are a real Sikh, then you need to resolve this issue before you escape to Indian nationalism.
Next time I like to talk about “Stockholm syndrome” as it applies to minorities in India.
@”India has a 150 million muslim population out of which 5% is educated and 2% has access to public services.”
Can you back up any of these ISI manufactured stats & statements like “Indian muslim actors can’t buy real estate in mumbai” with any sort of substantiation? If not, please stop claiming them! Nobody is denying that muslims in India may not be doing as well as other communities but there are various socio-economic reasons for it & it has nothing to do with the “hatered by the hindus”. You need to check your facts from reliable & neutral sources instead of blindly buying the mullah military propoganda sold in your country. Indian muslims have just as many opportunities to rise as people of other communities, in fact the Indian govt has programes tailored for the upliftment of muslims & reserved quotas for them. India is the only country in the world where the government subsidizes the airfare for the Hajj pilgrimage, spending almost Rs.50,000 per passenger.
@”Looks as though they have kept their violent methods, and taken it to other countries” Posted by Umairpk
Carrying a miniature sword does not translate into violence but blowing up planes, buildings etc & killing innocent civilians in public places, does. The 9/11 attackers, London bombers, shoe bomber, underwear bomber, Times square bomber etc were NOT sikh.
@Bloggers
Often issue is raised that muslims in India find difficulty in buying/renting property in metros. Does anyone know one thing that all international food chains have ‘extensive’ vegetarian menus ONLY in India. I believe that muslims not getting properties among a ‘certain’ group of hindus is because those guys might be pure vegetarians. I am myself a pure vegetarian and would never want to have my neighbour as a non-veggie because I just can’t stand smell of non-veg all the time. Once in a while in a restaurant is fine but all the time. NO man. And I have seen people refusing houses for rent to non-veggies in my own colony a lot of times (and mostly were hindus) and that is IRRESPECTIVE of the religion of the other person. It just so happens that muslims are all non-veggies. Or at least I have never met a pure veggie muslim.
In case of actors and celebrities it is all a publicity stunt. If someone doesn’t get a good deal then just gather media and start shouting, ‘I am harassed because of my religion’. Umair, do you have any idea how much is truth in such statements. And how come you not read that fight over meat shop in a society in mumbai some 3-4 years back where both parties were hindus. As I have been saying all along that religion is used as a tool to achieve selfish and mean goals.
Umairpk: “India must face up to Hindu terrorism”
We are. So hang in there. Militancy is due to backwardness. So long as there are poor masses, militancy helps drive them around and control them. For a country like India, which is huge, it has tremendous inertia and slow momentum. It is gathering pace along economic progress front. It might take a couple of decades where the current generation of weeds die out and get replaced by less iconic and less popular dummy leaders. Typically they fight amongst themselves and disappear slowly with time. Once that happens, these kind of organizations weaken and disappear. India has done the right thing. One cannot take the stick for everything. Progress will wash it all out, albeit slowly. No one is worried about these Hindu militants other than Pakistanis who want to score a counter point every time something blows up there.
Guardian is still in the imperial British mindset. They hate Indians and would love to write anything against India. Interestingly Indians end up writing against India for their pay masters there. We know what to expect from the Guardian and we are not too concerned. Once in a while they get desperate after the realization that they have not nit picked on India. So they write something about Kashmir or hygiene or gays in India. I treat Guardian at the same level as Pak Tribune.
Umairpk: “As the LeT has a free hand in Pakistan, similarly the RSS has complete freedom of movement in India. Both India and Pakistan states have home grown militant groups enjoying state patronage.”
RSS belongs to the Hindu organizations who hate the Congress more than they hate Pakistan. How can a Congress led Indian government offer patronage to them? You seem to club everything into the same group.
RSS will dissipate away as time goes on. LeT might end up ruling Pakistan. Therein lies the difference.
Matrixx: “It is sad that you refuse to look at a few bitter questions about Punjab but want to discuss Jinnah and Bengal.”
Punjab was ruled by Maharaja Ranjit Singh. Now if I sit down and demand that all of Punjab should return to the Sikhs, that would be foolish. A lot of sad stories have happened. And all that happened because of a power crazy and selfish politician and an evil colonial empire. When I know the root cause of all miseries, I have no use getting angry at others.
“You ask me to go to Wikipedia. Why would I do that when I know Punjab history passed down by my own family from Dinanagar in Grudaspur area.”
The problem with history being passed down is that it can suffer from distortions. Sometimes ears and noses can be added to juice up the story. It is human nature to do such things. People tell their stories entirely from their view points and many times they do not correspond to the overall story. Hence it is my policy to verify always. I am sure it will do you a lot of good as well. Otherwise in your ancestral story India appears like an evil monster with Hindus walking around with machetes, hacking all Muslims, demolishing all mosques, raping Muslim women and having a merry time. I can sense that in the views of many of you who refuse to read from authentic sources and learn the truth.
“Most of them barely escaped a few miles to Pakistan and lost every thing in process. There are thousands who did not escape the organized bloodshed. Bravo secular India.”
Many lost lives on the other side too. I am sure you have chosen to ignore them completely. Or in your passed down history no mention was made of that. Partition was a huge mistake and it resulted in tremendous bloodshed. It all happened because Jinnah wanted to be a head of state somehow and the British wanted to f*ck up independent India. We all have been manipulated for others’ benefit. Instead of fighting each other, we must look at those who fooled us and see what we can do to avoid similar mistakes.
“You study Wikipedia and rewrite to your satisfaction but the fact remains that Sikh community is among living dead and if you are a real Sikh, then you need to resolve this issue before you escape to Indian nationalism.”
A lot of injustice has happened to every community in South Asia. Ask the Bengalis and they will tell you about 1971 genocide by fellow brothers from West Pakistan. Have you guys offered any apologies to them? Our gurus were chased and killed by Mughal emperors. What do you think we should do about that? Go and kill some other innocent guy buying his groceries? Where do you draw the line? We have to look forward and make sure that future generations do not suffer the same foolish problems that our previous generation and ours did.
“Next time I like to talk about “Stockholm syndrome” as it applies to minorities in India.”
India is not Nazi Germany. You need to open your eyes and try to see things without a bias. Life has to move on. If we are sitting and settling scores, we will never make it. A lot of things did not go the way they should have. That’s unfortunate. But we can do something about everything ahead that should go the way it should.
Umairpk: “I keep a note of 10 Indian Rupees in my wallet as a token of friendship, a Muslim friend I made in UAE and we exchanged Indian and Pakistani rupee notes”
Keep those ten rupees safely. Very soon it might become very valuable to buy essentials. With Pakistan bursting at its seams, foreign currency might be the only hope.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-south-as ia-12215145
@”As the LeT has a free hand in Pakistan, similarly the RSS has complete freedom of movement in India. Both India and Pakistan states have home grown militant groups enjoying state patronage.” Posted by Umairpk
Can you tell me, how many terrorist attacks, has the RSS carried out in Pakistan with the help of the Indian govt?
Umairpk: “And frankly KPSingh, even though you call Jinnah a crook, still i think you are far better than those cold blooded killer hindu terrorists who are thirsty for Muslim blood in India.”
There are not that many Hindu terrorists in India. My community had a lot more once. There are Hindu conservatives and people with extreme views. Our archaic and old criminal justice system is good enough to take care of them. Our military does not sponsor them. The party running the government is more opposed to them than you Pakistanis are. So do not worry. India is in safe hands. And Pakistanis won’t have to lose their sleep over them. I’d suggest that you guys worry more about where your country is headed.
I think it’s easy to demonise a country based on (1) past history of another generation, (2) its foreign policy or (3) acts of a few people within its borders. It’s also easy to suffer from a victim complex based on a few events in history or events that affected people one identifies with.
As a college student, I was very anti-American because I disagreed strongly with US foreign policy. Today I realise that “America” is not a monolithic entity. There are many aspects to America, some good, some bad. It’s silly to hate a country based on some aspects when there are so many good things about it as well.
I think we can see what is good about our own countries, and we’re caught in this trap of hating the other country for a number of reasons. I cannot speak on behalf of Pakistan, but I can safely say that India is a “normal” country, with many flaws and blemishes, but still not a monster. It would be good if this can be accepted at some level.
On a lighter note, I think Swami Aseemanand deserves the Nishan-e-Haider for giving Pakistan a much-needed face-saver. Now in answer to any number of terrorist incidents committed by terrorists from Pakistan, one can always say, “Aseemanand! Aseemanand!” and the argument is over!
Regards,
Ganesh Prasad
KPSingh:” So hang in there. Militancy is due to backwardness. So long as there are poor masses, militancy helps drive them around and control them. For a country like India, which is huge, it has tremendous inertia and slow momentum. It is gathering pace along economic progress front. It might take a couple of decades”
-Good that Guardian is exposing the hindu terrorists in your midst, its only a matter of time before Reuters catches up. Financial Times and Economist have recently exposed the corruption, incompetent politicians and lazy bureaucracy in India which is a huge obstacle towards full economic potential. No wonder permanent UN seat for India is not even on the cards. Countries like China, Japan and Germany are far ahead in good governance. India are not even in the race. Forget about Baluchistan and worry about Maoists. Though, in the end i am relieved you did not state that Guardian was on the payroll of ISI.
Ganesh:
“I think we can see what is good about our own countries, and we’re caught in this trap of hating the other country for a number of reasons. I cannot speak on behalf of Pakistan, but I can safely say that India is a “normal” country, with many flaws and blemishes, but still not a monster. It would be good if this can be accepted at some level.
On a lighter note, I think Swami Aseemanand deserves the Nishan-e-Haider for giving Pakistan a much-needed face-saver. Now in answer to any number of terrorist incidents committed by terrorists from Pakistan, one can always say, “Aseemanand! Aseemanand!” and the argument is over!”
-Pakistan too has its share of challenges, maybe more than normal. But like any other people, Pakistanis have normal aspirations, that to live in peace, have a better life, education, healthcare and to live with dignity according to their faith, Islam. I am sure people in India have same aspirations. This is the reason why we get along with each other so nicely in Australia, South Africa, UAE etc. I have been to couple of these countries, all desi people live together and help each other out. Why can’t we live in peace back home? maybe emotions, nationalist fervour takes over. Point valid by 777 sometimes religion and sometimes politics are in play.
People like Swami Aseemanad or Hafiz Saeed should be dealt with, as stated before we need to rein in the extremists on both sides.
BTW, Nishan-e-Haider is equivalent to probably Pram Vir Chakar, is given to a sailor, soldier or airman who sacrifice his life for defense of Pakistan. No example of living person getting Nishan e Haider, more appropriate award would be ‘Nishan e Pakistan’ or maybe ‘Hilal e Pakistan’.
Mortal:
“Can you back up any of these ISI manufactured stats”
-The stats on demographics of Indian muslim population I quoted above are from Guardian article authored by an Indian referenced (link given) above. Or are you implying ISI has infiltrated Indian media? not a surprise for me. or maybe you didnt care to read the article since the title sounds frightening. Face the truth, don’t bury your head in sand, doesnt make the problem go away. The only thing I agree with you is a subsidized Haj airfare for Indian muslims (though 50k figure still in accurate)
Matrixx said:
> I know Punjab history passed down by my own family from Dinanagar in Grudaspur area. Most of them barely escaped a few miles to Pakistan and lost every thing in process. There are thousands who did not escape the organized bloodshed.
And there were similarly many who fled to India having lost all their property in Pakistan. And similarly many still who were not so lucky.
I don’t know if you saw the movie “Gandhi”. You may think of it as Indian propaganda, or as a pro-Indian view by a British filmmaker, but I think this particular scene has the ring of truth about it:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F-rWIk2hf vA
Watch the clip from 2:30 to 4:20.
A lot of people have suffered a lot in the past. A lot of people continue to suffer today. The question is, what can we change about ourselves (not the other party!) that can bring about a future where people do not suffer as much?
Regards,
Ganesh Prasad
Umair said:
> BTW, Nishan-e-Haider is equivalent to probably Pram Vir Chakar, is given to a sailor, soldier or airman who sacrifice his life for defense of Pakistan. No example of living person getting Nishan e Haider, more appropriate award would be ‘Nishan e Pakistan’ or maybe ‘Hilal e Pakistan’.
My bad – I googled it after posting but it was too late!
Regards,
Ganesh Prasad
Umair said:
> This is the reason why we get along with each other so nicely in Australia, South Africa, UAE etc. I have been to couple of these countries, all desi people live together and help each other out.
On that note, if you’re ever visiting Sydney, you’re welcome to stay at my place
.
(And that goes for the rest of you regulars as well)
Regards,
Ganesh Prasad (g dot c prasad at gmail dot com)
That should be g dot c dot prasad at gmail dot com, but I’m told Gmail doesn’t care about the initial dots anyway.
Regards,
Ganesh Prasad
> I don’t know if you saw the movie “Gandhi”. You may think of it as Indian propaganda, or as a pro-Indian view by a British filmmaker, but I think this particular scene has the ring of truth about it:
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F-rWIk2hf vA
> Watch the clip from 2:30 to 4:20.
I found another clip, in English this time, and the relevant section is from 7:35 to 9:25:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CLUzWJbxD Ek
Regards,
Ganesh Prasad
Interesting point of view of a Kashmiri:
http://k4kashmir.com/?p=2466
I think the “official” points of view are now outdated.
Regards,
Ganesh Prasad
Umairpk: “Good that Guardian is exposing the hindu terrorists in your midst, its only a matter of time before Reuters catches up. Financial Times and Economist have recently exposed the corruption, incompetent politicians and lazy bureaucracy in India which is a huge obstacle towards full economic potential. No wonder permanent UN seat for India is not even on the cards. Countries like China, Japan and Germany are far ahead in good governance. India are not even in the race. Forget about Baluchistan and worry about Maoists. Though, in the end i am relieved you did not state that Guardian was on the payroll of ISI.”
India’s big size is an advantage. It prevents calamity from spreading far and wide. Maoists operate in one region. RSS etc operate in another. Likewise there are staunch communists, criminal dons etc operate in their own niche. They have difficulty spreading from all side and taking over the whole land. Diversity becomes a huge barrier. The elements you are trying to cling on to desperately to score points against India, have been there over decades. India was in a much worse situation before. In addition to all these, we had corrupt Congress led government at the center. Now things have become much better. Organizations like RSS, BJP etc are losing favor. BJP is desperately trying to come up with new agenda to get back to power. In all, things look good for India. So Aseemananda is just another criminal like many Hindu Swamis who get caught in sex scandals. That is part of the system. No matter how advanced a nation becomes in all aspects, criminals are not going to go away.
But Pakistan’s case is different. People with evil intentions have proliferated your main power systems over the years. And they are colluding with criminal organizations masquerading as religious missions targeting innocent people to instigate terror and panic as a means of controlling others. It is like a mental sickness. It needs treatment. But they have taken over the power center of Pakistan. When that is the case, there is not much hope for this nation. It has all the potential to fall than rise. I hope I am wrong. But everything points towards a downward slide. Pakistan will still have good people and intelligent ones at that. But they will be sucked in and swallowed up in this giant whirlpool that has begun to spin.
Guardian will still try to spin more anti-Indian stories for its leftist British readers and Pakistanis. At some point they will not have much to write about. Things are headed that way. None of us deny the issues being pointed out towards India. We know they are real. But we are not so alarmed. Things are on the right path on this side of the Wagah border.
Umairpk: “The only thing I agree with you is a subsidized Haj airfare for Indian muslims (though 50k figure still in accurate)”
Muslims have their own civil code. An Indian Muslim can marry four wives. A Hindu or Christian or Sikh will get arrested if he did the same. India has given a lot more concessions to its Muslim citizens than many of the advanced and liberal European and North American nations.