Comments on: Pakistan and the taboo of secularism http://blogs.reuters.com/pakistan/2011/01/08/pakistan-and-the-taboo-of-secularism/ Perspectives on Pakistan Thu, 01 Oct 2015 19:31:05 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=4.2.5 By: kEiThZ http://blogs.reuters.com/pakistan/2011/01/08/pakistan-and-the-taboo-of-secularism/comment-page-5/#comment-36180 Sun, 20 Feb 2011 20:47:10 +0000 http://blogs.reuters.com/pakistan/?p=6704#comment-36180 They tried to build a secular society using Islam as a foundation. Using a religion as a basis for founding a secular state is a contradiction in terms….particularly so when it’s an Islamic state that pretends to have secular aspirations. The founders of Pakistan saw what they wanted to see. They saw the secular values that they so cherished in their idealistic view of Islam. Secular moderation was to be found in a supposed moderate faith that always chooses the “middle path”. How wrong they were.

This leaves the Pakistanis confused. They keep trying to find a middle path. They don’t want to be Saudi Arabia. But they don’t want to be the West either. But I really do wonder if compromise is possible at all. I don’t think it is. Pakistan will slowly become another Saudi Arabia (and if the treatment of minorities is an indication, the pretense of even moderate secularism is slipping away). There’s very little chance it will go the way of Turkey and become a secular state with a large Muslim majority.

I know Pakistanis aspire to be Turkey. But the difference is that while there is debate in Turkey about secularism, most Turks understand and accept the necessity of separating mosque and state. In Pakistan, increasingly this is not the case. When the starting point of debate is that you are an Islamic Republic, that leaves very little room for debate.

Moreover, the situation of Pakistanis, ignores context. Pakistan was founded in direct contrast to the view that India would be a Hindu state. As such, Islam is a part of Pakistan’s identity. Even more than that, it’s Pakistan raison d’etre. Pretty hard to turn secular if the founding image of the country is based on the idea that Islam in South Asia was under threat from the Hindu hordes.

I do wonder what the founders of the Pakistani idea would think of the state of affairs today: an increasingly secular India (not perfect but constantly progressing away from sectarianism), sitting next door to a Pakistan that’s breeding more and more religious intolerance and fanaticism. Too bad. Pakistan could have been the Switzerland of South Asia.

]]>
By: prasadgc http://blogs.reuters.com/pakistan/2011/01/08/pakistan-and-the-taboo-of-secularism/comment-page-5/#comment-35919 Fri, 04 Feb 2011 22:55:27 +0000 http://blogs.reuters.com/pakistan/?p=6704#comment-35919 Rex Minor said:

> You want to know about the “Indian Caste System”?
Just google the foregoing words and your IPad would show you 693,000 results.

You are an intellectually dishonest person because you act deliberately obtuse. I asked you to research the progress made on caste relations in India, and you pretend not to understand. You have proven that it is impossible to have an honest debate with you. Other readers will have understood this as well.

Regards,
Ganesh Prasad

]]>
By: pakistan http://blogs.reuters.com/pakistan/2011/01/08/pakistan-and-the-taboo-of-secularism/comment-page-5/#comment-35887 Thu, 03 Feb 2011 02:25:24 +0000 http://blogs.reuters.com/pakistan/?p=6704#comment-35887 @Prasadgo
You want to know about the “Indian Caste System”?
Just google the foregoing words and your IPad would show you 693,000 results.
Have a good read!

Rex Minor

]]>
By: prasadgc http://blogs.reuters.com/pakistan/2011/01/08/pakistan-and-the-taboo-of-secularism/comment-page-5/#comment-35840 Tue, 01 Feb 2011 23:38:25 +0000 http://blogs.reuters.com/pakistan/?p=6704#comment-35840 Correction:

…what has BEEN happening in India around caste…

Regards,
Ganesh Prasad

]]>
By: prasadgc http://blogs.reuters.com/pakistan/2011/01/08/pakistan-and-the-taboo-of-secularism/comment-page-5/#comment-35839 Tue, 01 Feb 2011 23:36:58 +0000 http://blogs.reuters.com/pakistan/?p=6704#comment-35839 Rex Minor,

One’s own stomach or guts can provide opinions, not facts. A lot of it is quite literally gas. A person with opinions that are not based on facts and will not change his opinion when facts are presented is called a bigot. It is not a bad word but an accurate description of such a person. If the cap fits, wear it.

You have heard the term ‘caste system’ but do not have anything more than a superficial knowledge of what has happening in India around caste since the days of independence. Indian society is not static but your textbooks probably are.

Before you talk about caste again, I expect you to do some research (not from stomach or guts please) on the following terms:

Mandal
SC/ST
OBC
Mayawati
BSP
DK and DMK

We can then debate your question with more insight, “Do you feel that India with its caste system is more tolerant than Pakistan?”

Regards,
Ganesh Prasad

]]>
By: Mortal1 http://blogs.reuters.com/pakistan/2011/01/08/pakistan-and-the-taboo-of-secularism/comment-page-5/#comment-35808 Tue, 01 Feb 2011 02:23:14 +0000 http://blogs.reuters.com/pakistan/?p=6704#comment-35808 @Ganesh to pakistan “if you will just be intellectually honest enough to acknowledge it.”

He’s neither intellectual, nor honest. So don’t push your luck!

]]>
By: pakistan http://blogs.reuters.com/pakistan/2011/01/08/pakistan-and-the-taboo-of-secularism/comment-page-5/#comment-35806 Tue, 01 Feb 2011 02:10:31 +0000 http://blogs.reuters.com/pakistan/?p=6704#comment-35806 @GPrasad
I am honest enough to believe in what you state, though I have not the knowledge of Indian and Pakistani intellects and I am sure many would not agree with me. What I have experienced on this blog also tells me the opposite, perhaps not a good sample of people? Incidently, Indira Gandhi would also be alive today if she had not blindly relied on her security guards after inflicting injury to the dignity of sikhs? Try not to quote or follow analogue people who have a very limited view of events. Rely on your own talent and feelings coming from your guts. Do you feel that India with its caste system is more tolerant than Pakistan?

Rex Minor

]]>
By: prasadgc http://blogs.reuters.com/pakistan/2011/01/08/pakistan-and-the-taboo-of-secularism/comment-page-5/#comment-35729 Sun, 30 Jan 2011 01:22:23 +0000 http://blogs.reuters.com/pakistan/?p=6704#comment-35729 Rex Minor said:

> It simply means that when you are unable to find the culprit responsinble, you just blame some innocent one.

Ah, now I understand that it’s meant to be ironical. I apologise.

> This is what is happening with Taseer’s murder. The Clergy gets the blame!

The clergy is *not* innocent, but of course they are not being blamed for the actual murder. They are being blamed for encouraging it by declaring Taseer ‘Wajib-ul-qatl’ (deserving of being killed) and for supporting the killing afterwards by threatening anyone who wanted to mourn his death. They have created the atmosphere of intolerance that caused his death.

MJ Akbar, the Indian journalist, has rightly pointed out that if Taseer had been an Indian Muslim, he would still be alive. The level of intolerance in India is nowhere near as high as in Pakistan, if you will just be intellectually honest enough to acknowledge it.

Regards,
Ganesh Prasad

]]>
By: prasadgc http://blogs.reuters.com/pakistan/2011/01/08/pakistan-and-the-taboo-of-secularism/comment-page-5/#comment-35728 Sun, 30 Jan 2011 01:14:11 +0000 http://blogs.reuters.com/pakistan/?p=6704#comment-35728 Rex Minor said:

> Now tell me, did you write KP’s statement about Kashmir in your post? If you did not, then I am sorry, but if you did then you carry the blame! And therefore my apology would be unnecessary. Should’nt KP not apologise as well in your agnostic view?

I don’t know whether you honestly fail to understand an issue, or whether you just act like it. Maybe your thought process is just very different.

The statement by KP on Sikhs being willing to settle in Kashmir is *his opinion* for which neither he nor anyone else has to apologise. You may dislike his statement intensely but he need not apologise for having that opinion.

You thought that *I* had made that statement and continued to argue with me over it, even though I have no strong opinion on it either way and have never written about it. The wrongful attribution of a statement not made by me is the only thing that needs an apology, in my agnostic view, not the expression of an opinion on Sikhs settling in Kashmir. Since you have apologised for the wrongful attribution, I will treat the matter as closed.

And you can learn to accept that KP can have his independent opinion without having to apologise to you.

Regards,
Ganesh Prasad

]]>
By: KPSingh01 http://blogs.reuters.com/pakistan/2011/01/08/pakistan-and-the-taboo-of-secularism/comment-page-5/#comment-35724 Sat, 29 Jan 2011 18:01:55 +0000 http://blogs.reuters.com/pakistan/?p=6704#comment-35724 Rex Minor,

You have written so many non-sensical things one after another, I have no idea which ones I should address first or just leave the non-sense to you. I think I will do the latter.

I am slowly beginning to realize that Pakistan mostly is made up of people like you. I saw the videos cheering Mumtaz Qadri. That tells me everything. When population becomes filled with Rex Minors, that country is doomed to fail. It is becoming filled with people blinded by emotions, frustrated and filled with fury. It is only a matter of time before it all blows up.

]]>