Musharraf’s Kashmir deal, mirage or oasis?

January 20, 2011

musharraf londonThe foreign secretaries, or top diplomats,  of India and Pakistan are expected to meet on the sidelines of a South Asian summit in Thimpu, Bhutan on Feb 6/7 to try to find a way back into talks which have been stalled since the attack on Mumbai in November 2008. Progress is expected to be limited, perhaps paving the way to a meeting of the foreign ministers, or to deciding how future talks should be structured.

Expectations are running low, all the more so after a meeting between the foreign ministers descended into acrimony last July. And leaders in neither country have the political space to take the kind of risks needed for real peace talks right now. Pakistan is struggling with the fall-out of the assassination of Punjab governor Salman Taseer  among many other things, while Indian Prime Minister Manmohan Singh has been weakened by a corruption scandal at home.

However, in the interests of establishing a baseline, I asked former president Pervez Musharraf in an interview earlier this week about a roadmap for peace he had agreed with Prime Minister Singh in 2007 before political turmoil forced him out of office. The roadmap brought the two countries to their nearest in years to a peace deal, and during Barack Obama’s presidential election campaign, there was a great deal of hope it  could be revived in order to ease tensions between India and Pakistan  in turn helping to stabilise Afghanistan. Even after the Mumbai attacks ended chances of an early “Kashmir to Kabul” peace settlement, the idea has lingered on as one of the more promising models. Yet since the agreement was reached in secret, its details have never been officially released.

Diplomats say the agreement hinged on an acceptance by India and Pakistan that there would be no exchange of territory in disputed Kashmir but they would work to make irrelevant the Line of Control which divides the region. There was also supposed to be a “joint mechanism” under which Indians, Pakistanis and Kashmiris would oversee areas of common interest.  No one can agree, however, on far advanced the talks were. Some say the deal was ready for signing; others that there was still a long way to go.  In particular, the two countries had yet to agree the nature of the “joint mechanism”, and bring on board their own people and domestic constituencies in accepting the agreement. Here is what Musharraf had to say when I asked him about the sceptics’ view of the draft agreement:

“You are probably concentrating only on Kashmir. But there were two other issues, Sir Creek and Siachen. On Sir Creek and Siachen we reached a stage that they can be signed yesterday. There is no doubt in my mind.”  The disputed territory in Sir Creek had been surveyed and was just awaiting a leadership decision, he said. ”Then Siachen, we had decided on the relocation of troops beyond certain lines, so everything is done.”

“Yes, Kashmir is not that easy. We had found basic parameters; it was my idea actually … the parameters were first of all demilitarising, which meant really demilitarising on the Line of Control; graduated demilitarisation from the Line of Control and also from the cities in the Indian part of Kashmir; that is what is bothering and troubling the civilians there; so therefore in first case leave the cities and go into the outskirts and then further getting to garrisons. The second element was maximum self-governance, and the third was an overwatch of those areas not given for self-governance, and also (to) see how the self-governance is functioning. This body we had proposed, I had proposed, (was to) be of Kashmiris, Pakistanis and Indians.

 ”So these were the parameters and then the issue was of the Line of Control, making the Line of Control irrelevant … The Indians thought we should make this as a permanent border. My view was that this has been the cause of wars. How can we have the cause of conflict as the permanent solution? So my idea was that we could look into making the Line of Control irrelevant.

 ”Now we were in the process of drafting an agreement. Obviously there were differences on the wording and the expressions.”  He said that the leadership in both countries needed to show sincerity, flexibility and above all political courage to see the deal through. ”Because when you reach a deal or an agreement, there is always a give and take. Nobody will allow a take-and-take to the other side. So where there is a give-and-take the good path is the one which leader has faced boldly because there will be elements in your country who will agitate, on both sides, because the give has to be on both sides … So now I don’t know whether we could have shown that kind of guts and leadership that we arrived at a conclusion within six months, but we were making fast progress, that I know.”

Asked about how many people had been involved on the Pakistan side beyond Musharraf and his special envoy, Tariq Aziz, he said the foreign minister and foreign secterary were always taken on board, while Pakistan Army chief, General Ashfaq Pervez Kayani – then head of the Inter-Services Intelligence (ISI) – had been there since the beginning. “He was the DG-ISI, so he had to be on board.”

The draft agreement has been virtually disowned by the current government, which says it has no record of it, even in the Foreign Office.

“Do they want peace or not? If they want peace, then let them come up with another idea,” Musharraf said. “Nobody has the right to disown something that was moving forward unless you come out with another idea. If you have another idea by all means go ahead … but I believe that peace is essential.”

The former military ruler who plans to return to Pakistan to fight elections due by 2013 said he believed the deal could still be resurrected.  It had been discussed with politicians on both sides of Kashmir, along with the main separatist alliance, the All Parties Hurriyat Conference, and everyone was on board on the parameters, he said. And nobody else had come with another solution.

Those Musharraf/Singh talks are history now.  The two countries have reverted to their stated positions – Pakistan that the future of Kashmir must be settled through a plebiscite in line with U.N. resolutions; India that the region is such an integral part of the country that it does not even recognise its status as disputed.

Perhaps that deal was always going to be a mirage, the final details slipping elusively out of grasp. Or perhaps it is the only model that could ever have worked. At least if we know enough about what nearly happened we might be to assess better where talks might go in the future.

(Reuters photo: Musharraf speaks during an interview at his London home/Stefan Wermuth)

Comments

KP Singh said:

> I need to hear the honks, I want to walk through the crowd, feel the traffic, bargain with the vegetable vendor, eat hot sambar and masala dosa

In fact, I have never met a Sardar who did not like sambar and masala dosa :-) . I heard of one (a friend’s friend) who would ask for a glass of sambar and drink it up!

That’s our historical social contract, I guess – you (Sikhs) guard the borders, we (Madrasis) make sambar/masala dosa for you…

Regards,
Ganesh Prasad

Posted by prasadgc | Report as abusive
 

@Ganesh
“That’s our historical social contract, I guess – you (Sikhs) guard the borders, we (Madrasis) make sambar/masala dosa for you…”

And then there are people who say India is not a nation because of it whereas a billion people are so proud of this diversity. It happens only in India.

On that note I have never met a madraasi who does not cook great dosas and never met a sikh who does not have great sense of food. :)

Posted by 777xxx777 | Report as abusive
 

People who are brought up in non-secular settings can naver appreciate the diversity of India. Only an indian can enjoy a breakfast of uttampam, a lunch of gosht biryani, some dhokla & khandvi for evening snacks & tandoori chicken with daal for dinner.

Posted by Mortal1 | Report as abusive
 

@KP
What you are dreaming for and revere is still possible, even in your life time. Then remain optimisic and work for this ambition with your friends, your Govt. and a dialogue with people like Umair! Make the borders of India and Pakistan irrelevant, it has happened in Europe, it could happen in Asia as well. Do not tell the agonistic that Sikhs would like to settle in Kashmir! The bonds of people of a common culture and language are stronger than those of people having a common faith.
I would regard any country sick if the minorities are not protected. Those who call themselves muslims and look down upon minorities with discrimination have not got the slightest idea about Islam. We all need to learn and it is knowledge which makes us a better human. Europe has evolved into a great civilisation and have fully accepted one of God’s commandment, though shall not kill. Death penalty is no longer with us. Other countries who claim to be a civilised Nation should first adopt this law in their coutry.

Europe divide was made almost permanent because of different political systems(communism or capitalism), todays Europe is more or less socialism and market economy, not pure communism of Soviet Union or pure capitalism of the USA?

Rex Minor

Posted by pakistan | Report as abusive
 

Ganesh:”That’s our historical social contract, I guess – you (Sikhs) guard the borders, we (Madrasis) make sambar/masala dosa for you…”

Actually, we Sardars are trying to find out why you South Indians are so brainy. We figured it is Idli, Vada, Dosa and Sambar combination that does it. :-)

Posted by KPSingh01 | Report as abusive
 

Pakistan,

If you fix a standard for a nation to be healthy, where minorities feel protected, there is no healthy nation in this world. It never will be. People even look at those who moved into the neighborhood from another town differently until they really mix and blend in. That is the in born human nature.

All the ideal stuff is already in the constitution of many countries – all are equal, all have equal rights etc. But when it comes to practice of those principles, human nature comes in, and it has its own ways of dealing with reality.

Posted by KPSingh01 | Report as abusive
 

Rex Minor said:

> Do not tell the agonistic that Sikhs would like to settle in Kashmir!

I am not agonistic (i.e., in agony) that you keep dragging me into this, but I’m not amused either. I note that a few newcomers have also noticed your lack of honesty in debate and have called you on it. Try to be more intellectually honest.

Regards,
Ganesh Prasad

Posted by prasadgc | Report as abusive
 

@Rex

“What non-sense you are putting out!”
***I should ask you this question. In fact I noticed many posters have questioned your sense of logic.

“”I have observed nothing muslim about you, therefore in my eyes you are a Pseudo? You must be the first muslim who considers Hindus as ‘Believers’.”"
***Learn etiquette of posting. Don’t break your head to learn about my private business, religion or the size of my underwear. I really do not care whether you drink Johnie Walker and call yourself a Muslim.

You and Advani should meet and talk about “pseudo”. That would be some Einstein-Gandhi meeting.

Your religious intolerance is reflected in this statement of yours:
“Rehmat, a pseudo muslim who has almost assimilated in the Indian hindu society, …..”
***You are a self-professed peace seeker who has not a slightest idea about other religions but still attack them.

India is a country with majority Hindu, major minority being Muslims and a variety of other religions. It is secular by constitution and has not achieved that fully as yet. It has not been totally secular. Advani calls mainly Congressis who practice secularism as pseudosecular, and goes to Pakistan calls Jinnah a secular. You can call me whatever that does not change the facts. As I said earlier, note it again, it tells more about you.

“You must be the first muslim who considers Hindus as ‘Believers’. Why do’nt you give the opportunity to the Hindus to claim this?”
***People are sensitive as far as their religion or even lack of religion (atheists) is concerned. Look at you you are a soooo sensitive about religion. I am also sensitive where it matters. So are Hindus and Sikhs and everyone else. You may call India a Hindu country and attack me a Muslim lost in Hindu crowd. That is your childish interpretation. For a Hindu to live in harmony with people from other religion including Muslims, a Hindu better know the religious (among others) sensitivities of people of other religion too. Same holds true for a Muslim. I better not say something that needlessly provokes the person on religious grounds. A knowledge what their sense of GOD and belief is important. I try to understand what their views are.

You can brag about Muslim’s idea of “belief” like kindergarten kid, I see beyond that without “risking” Islam so that “peaceful” people like you do not pull out swords. In India, we have Hindus (killing 2000 in Gujarat), Sikhs (recent violence in Punjab and during Sikh militancy time) and Muslims (blowing Hindus in Gujarat and collaborating with bomb planters) of your kind in India. They are all very religious like you in their own sense.

I have a very nice BUT atheist friend who will not let faith word be used in any sense about him, such is his aversion to religion. Fine with me and we get along well. For anyone in India to get along with other we need to know how a Hindu thinks. I know it and you do not. I know how a Sikh thinks religiously, you have no idea. You want peace but ready to have this gag ready for anyone who tells what a Hindu’s idea of GOD is and look at an atheist and agnostic with contempt, you burn in your fire.

“Agnostics” like 777 and Ganesh, most likely, are suitable to tell you what a Hindu’s view is. Perpahaps more suitable than many other Hindus to tell you what a Hindu’s idea of GOD is. They are not passively religious or pretend to be religious by default, and clearly have given a thought and call themselves agnostics. Fine.

You have seen me having discussion with 777 (he knows about Hinduism and if I recall read Koran too) about what a Hindu’s idea of GOD is. You called me “out of the realm of Islam” at that time since I talked about trinity in Hinduism and in Christianity and you have continued since then on that path about attacking me. I have seen Indians here tell you that Hindus do believe in GOD. While I understand Muslim interpretation, “believer” for a Hindu has come up when you attacked Hinduism as non-believers. Follow this logic. Why would you do that? You were told that Hindus do believe i.e.., to “believe in XYZ GOD of Hindus”. I think at that point the discussion should have stopped. You are inviting trouble by labeling someone, who thinks he/she believes in GOD (their own version), as non-believer.

While Ahl al-Kitab (People of book) does not make Hindus “believers” by Muslims standards, but it includes Muslims, Hindus, Jews, Christians and Parsis in one bracket. This is an effort to create more religious understanding and tolerance. This thing is lost on you.

You have a habit of attacking people obliquely like you did to Ganesh and then perhaps for me the following:
“Those who call themselves muslims and look down upon minorities with discrimination have not got the slightest idea about Islam.”

“You want India to be allowed to join OIC? Your arguments are weak and carry no substance. Do you wish to send Salman Rushdie in the conference?”
***So you are saying Indian Muslims are not part of Ummah, if OIC is anything close to that. Then why are you worried about Indian Muslims? Do not try to melodramatic about Rushdie. I hope you have not passed the deleterious genetic information to your progeny.

Peace and get some life!

Posted by rehmat | Report as abusive
 

Rehmat,

That’s telling him! (I’m not expecting any change, though.)

Regards,
Ganesh Prasad

Posted by prasadgc | Report as abusive
 

@Rehmat
I guess in your note you were thinking loudly to yourself!
I do not usualy involve myself in other religions, nor have any patience with those who relate acts of individual muslims in the world with Islam. I have also zero tolerence for the mob or any one one who speaks for the mob.

The Indian mob I found on this blog is the most aggressive and outspoken one to the extent of using foul language. I have not seen any restraints or sensitivity that you are talking about, forcing even the most talented and sincere Pakistanis to think about leaving this place. I do not want to generalise but I have been warned that Indian citizens do not generaly take ‘NO’ for an answer and want to keep on arguing on their point of view. This subject is closed now. Have fun in this world so long as you can.

Rex Minor

Posted by pakistan | Report as abusive
 

@Rex

“I guess in your note you were thinking loudly to yourself!”
***No I was talking to the wall.

“I do not usualy involve myself in other religions, nor have any patience with those who relate acts of individual muslims in the world with Islam.”
***So are you making this blog an exception that you poke at other religions. Your consistent laughable comments on Sikh Gurus is just one example and unending Hindu/believer another and you do not leave even agnostics alone. I guess Mortal/KPS have quite a bit of patience with you saying what you have been saying about their Gurus.

Prejuidice and narrow sample size will do no good to your conclusions about Indians. Conclusion is already written in that case.

On a serious note, meditation (which you like) might help you in reorienting yourself, considering that by now a number of posters have questioned your wisdom and thought process. If you do not care about that, then you are wasting your time.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Ganesh

I am also not hopeful, but you never know.

Posted by rehmat | Report as abusive
 

Pakistan: “Make the borders of India and Pakistan irrelevant, it has happened in Europe, it could happen in Asia as well.”

Do not tell this to your Pakistani comrades. This is the last thing they want to hear. And they are building up nukes to keep the division as wide as possible. And in today’s world, no one wants to have open borders with Pakistan which is getting filled up with frenzied religious bigots.

“Do not tell the agonistic that Sikhs would like to settle in Kashmir!”

If borders are irrelevant according to your above statement, why is it wrong for Sikhs or anyone else to settle in Kashmir? Aren’t Sikhs human?

“The bonds of people of a common culture and language are stronger than those of people having a common faith.”

In other words you support the idea that dividing nations along religious lines is wrong. Please tell that to your Pakistani compatriots.

Posted by KPSingh01 | Report as abusive
 

@Rehmat
Man, cool off…I can understand ur feeling for Rex calling u a pseudo muslim but talking to a wall will not result in anything productive. He has proven himself to be a bigot beyond any doubt and an India hater as well. The fool does not have even the slighest idea how google search engine works but he is quick to say google shows 693,000 number of results for “Indian Caste System” without wondering if all of those are really relevant and are actually the ones he is looking for or not. So I would say just laugh at him and move on.

Posted by 777xxx777 | Report as abusive
 

A suggestion to Reuters: You should provide the commenters with an “Ignore user” button instead of the useless “Report as abusive”, so that we can all just completely ignore the mumbling rantings of a particular bigoted cave dweller.

On second thoughts, the comedy is sometimes too good to pass!

Posted by Mortal1 | Report as abusive
 

Mortal1: “we can all just completely ignore the mumbling rantings of a particular bigoted cave dweller.”

For all you know this guy could be sending out his rants from a cave in Tora Bora. It is very easy to make things appear as through messages are sent from Germany or US, while sitting in a busy street in South Punjab. Internet can provide all the deceptive cover. Some guys might have learned German or might have visited there for sometime. Based on this guy’s writing, it is very clear that he has no exposure to the real culture of where he claims to be living. His analysis is primitive and he calls NY Times and other reputed news papers as trash. He does not say what he relies on for news and information. And invariably it is heavily pro-Pakistan in expression. I think this guy is writing from a Madrasa somewhere in Peshawar or in a nearby area. Who knows how one can trace one’s origin of posting in blogs of this kind? With cloud computing capability, it is difficult to tell where exactly one is and whether his or her name is real or a fake one. One has to read the underlying sentiments in expression, their consistency etc to derive that kind of information about them. Based on what he has been presenting here, I can tell this guy is not living in Germany.

Posted by KPSingh01 | Report as abusive
 

@777

I really do not care what Rex says about me. I cannot change him and only variable here is me. I can write and explain why I am the way I am and hope good sense prevails. I think he needs to make friends with people of other religion and from different cultures, sooner than later.

It is interesting to see that in all these debates, most of the energy is dissipated in requesting the other person to have a common sense and not misinterpret or distort the meaning. Mentioning a good thing about majority is interpreted as anti-minority, talking about support for govt action against terrorists is taken as supporting the govt and opposing the innocent minority, criticizing the foreign policy of Pakistan is considered to be anti-Pakistan, as if Pakistanis are being hated. Then my words taken out of context on Sikhs and politics make Rex say PM Singh is the last Sikh leader, but I tell you he won’t say Gilani of Kashmir as last Kashmiri.

I am just an “observer”.

Posted by rehmat | Report as abusive
 

@”For all you know this guy could be sending out his rants from a cave in Tora Bora. It is very easy to make things appear as through messages are sent from Germany or US, while sitting in a busy street in South Punjab.”
Posted by KPSingh01

KP, you’d be surprised at how many of these “mental cave dwellers” are actually living in the west. They might apeear completely normal to the people around them but they have a lot of frustration & rage bottled in. The ones that get educated & assimilated are just fine but the one’s that refuse to do so, become frustrated & radicalized. If they were living in Pakistan, they can freely vent out their anger but since they live in the west, there’s very little that they can do to demonstrate their real emotions & the internet is the only medium, which enables them to do so. This is especially very true since 9/11 & the GWOT started. From my experience, I have found Pakistanis living in the west (especially UK) to be more antagonistic than the ones living in Pakistan.

Posted by Mortal1 | Report as abusive
 

KP Singh said:

> For all you know this guy could be sending out his rants from a cave in Tora Bora.

He’s probably on the level about being in Germany. His typos sometimes have a ‘z’ where a ‘t’ should be, and this suggests a European keyboard where the top row goes ‘qwertz’ rather than our ‘qwerty’. And in spite of his obvious loyalty to the ‘Muslim cause’, his quotes tend to be of Kant and Voltaire rather than Islamic sources, suggesting a European schooling.

I get called ‘curious’ and ‘inquisitive’ for such amateur detective work, in addition to all the other terms he uses for me (agnostic with no commitment to morals, ethics, etc), – although ‘bigot’ to him is ‘foul language’! I must admit I’m very curious to see what this character looks like :-) .

Regards,
Ganesh Prasad

Posted by prasadgc | Report as abusive
 

Guys

Love it or hate it, it is hard to ignore Rex. At the other entry, I see new posters after this guy’s sense of logic.

I am feeling sympathetic to him. Kind of!

Posted by rehmat | Report as abusive
 

@KP and others

Once again you guys have started blowing in the air!! After all we are all responsible somehow for our success or misery! try to live and let others live if you can!

To your rhetoric and emotions, I have no more comments.

Rex Minor

Posted by pakistan | Report as abusive
 

PS
Religion gives us the values we cherish and becomes part of our character, whereas, for our harmonius living together we need a common culture and this I am afraid I do not share with you guys. Have fun in your life.

Rex Minor

Posted by pakistan | Report as abusive
 

@”for our harmonius living together we need a common culture and this I am afraid I do not share with you guys” Posted by pakistan

A common culture is NOT needed for people to live together harmoniously & a prime example of that is New York city, where I’ve lived for the past 20 yrs. Here, you’ll find people of every race, religion & nationality living & working side by side in peace & harmony. It’s a cultural melting pot in every sense of the term. Another good example would be Mumbai (where I’m originally from), where people from different parts of India & varied cultures live together harmoniously.
If someone has a problem adjusting with people of different cultures, religions or nationalities, it’s a personal defect of that individual & has nothing to do with his culture. No religion or culture teaches intolerance.

Posted by Mortal1 | Report as abusive
 

Rex Minor said:

> for our harmonius living together we need a common culture

And therein lie the seeds of the two-nation theory. A purist or absolutist philosophy would lead one to believe that this statement is self-evident. Those who are a product of a diverse, hybrid and dynamic environment would not understand this logic.

The pluralist democracies continue to exist and flourish (with only occasional hiccups) because they don’t see their pluralism as an impediment to coexistence. They see it as a strength. (Those who do not understand pluralism then see pseudo-Muslims, deadwood and people with no commitment to morals and ethics.)

The societies that aspired for purity (‘Pak’ means pure) have still not found that sought-for harmony. Rather, they continue to find more internal divisions among their people. Ultimately, it’ll be every man for himself in such a society, because the individual is the smallest possible group.

Congratulations! You have astutely summed up the history of the subcontinent in a single sentence with your unwitting wisdom.

Regards,
Ganesh Prasad

Posted by prasadgc | Report as abusive
 

”for our harmonius living together we need a common culture and this I am afraid I do not share with you guys”
***Then how can one manage in a multi-cultural society in Germany. Chancellor of Germany has mentioned multi-culti has failed in Germany.

Seeing another culture from a distant and not have contact with it creates more problems.

There is research on it.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-1 2090328

Although the article talks about religion here, it can be extended to cultural level independent of religion. It is just a matter of contact, Germans had least contact with Muslims historically as compared to other nations and Germans harbor highest level of negative attitude towards Muslims.

Let me quote:

“One of the researchers, Alexander Yendell, told the BBC: “Germans have less contact with Muslims than the French, the Dutch and the Danes and we also found that if Germans have contacts with Muslims, they find them pleasant”

Posted by rehmat | Report as abusive
 

@Rex
“try to live and let others live”

This is the front line slogan of Jainism and Bhudhism (and this principle was vastly accepted by hindu majority as well,) both of which came into existence around 200 years before Christianity and Islam came into being. So I hope now you understand that morality is not propriety of Abrahamic religions only. And it is good to know other cultures and religions as well to increase one’s knowledge and knowing other religions does not translate into disrespecting one’s own.

Posted by 777xxx777 | Report as abusive
 

“for our harmonius living together we need a common culture” Posted by pakistan

This is the basic difference between you & the guy you like to call “pseudo muslim”. You would have a problem adjusting with poeple of different cultures & faiths and living in multi-cultural societies, whereas he would have no problems living with anyone & anywhere.

Posted by Mortal1 | Report as abusive
 

@Mrtal
For pete’s sake, do not take my words out of context. I was simply supporting KP who is fond of Punjabi culture. Faith is a personal matter, but a culture has very little to do with religion. I would not feel comfortable to live in a non-European culture either.
You are comfortable in new York, I felt somehow choked in NY, and flew out not spending more than a night or two stay.
I am now beginning to understand that Mr Jinnah’s most probably intention was to create a separate country to assure a dignity for muslims, which apparently in his view was at stake. In my view he made a mega error to accept the split of Punjab and Bengal.
The Congress and the muslim league parties could have taken the example of Switzerland, independent Cantons with their own language and administration, but a weak central Govt. My own view is that it is still possible if people of the land want peace and prosperity for the future generations. Just put aside the faith, which had been and could always be used by the political elites. I would have also voted for Romney who openly declared that he is a mormon and would always cherish his ancestors’ faith.

Rex Minor

Posted by pakistan | Report as abusive
 

@777
Well said! I do not want to debate religions. tell us simply if the caste system has been deleted from Hinduis. I do not mean the Indian law, which prohibits discrimination on account of caste system!
Please read KP’s Feb 1 post, I agree with him the bond of a culture such as Punjabi culture. I have seen in the UK and Germany, both muslims and sikhs coming together with their families on a pre-announced sunday in sport stadium. Try not to put faith and culture as one entity! I know there are some who do and this makes me feel very uncomfortable.

Rex Minor

PS
We are in the “Knowledge age” and have the opportunity to learn each other’s opinion, but calling names certainly indicte that the guy is not on this blog to learn but to teach. This is not bad but he should not underestimate others and then try to patronise. Admittedly, sometimes I do quote others to learn about the activity of the intelligence community on this blog!!

Posted by pakistan | Report as abusive
 

@Hey Clever Bloggers
Religion and culture is not a single entity!
let us try to listen, listen and listen others to understand them.
Many new generation of turks in Germany have problems with German language in schools. Some youth of Turkish and Arab origin are not fully integrating(whatever it means) in the communities.
Muticulti experience according to the christian democratic party(currently in central Govt.) has not been successful. The opposition parties do not agree with it and blames the Govt. Politics in action, but to be honest the problem is there.

Bonapart President of France, the son of a Hungarian immigrant is biased against French citizens, whose parents and grand parents came from their former colonies. He is also against Turkey entry into the European Union, since it were the Turks who ruled his family for centuries in Hungary. The problem in france is nothing new, except for the Burqah clad women from the Gulf countries who invade every now and then Paris to visit the Disney land and then spent millions in shopping. He is also not happy that the Saudi Monarch has a chateau in Paris with a direct access to the airport. The French President does not have this privileage!

David Cameron is new on the scene and just learning to be a bad boy and Pseudo anglo saxon, who used to ride a bicycle and has now a limusine to take him to 10 Downing Street. What has been happening is nothing new. He is just trying to get some votes from the right in case the liberals depart from the coalition Govt.
Now here is the surprise, Moses the 2nd has problems with all these leaders, since the reset of the USA foreign policy of a love affair with the muslim poulation is now in full swing!
Not to forget that Turkey has the largest Nato force after the USA and has been providing the security for Europe for more than half a century.

Rex Minor

PS Sorry I could not refer you to NYtimes or Washington Post, since several local papers of the three countries would be needed to understand the background. I deliberately refrained from indicating the faith of the three leaders not to upset you.

Posted by pakistan | Report as abusive
 

@Rex

“Many new generation of turks in Germany have problems with German language in schools. Some youth of Turkish and Arab origin are not fully integrating(whatever it means) in the communities.”
***hat means their interpersonal skills become defective like yours when talking to a person of another community. Remember you find it hard to ta

@@Hey Clever Bloggers
Religion and culture is not a single entity!

***Agreed, religion and culture are different creatures. Do you think it is religion or the culture that is said to be a problem in Germany in context of “multi-culti” failure? Multi-culti indicates culture but the major emphasis has been on religion, based on news reports and research.

For the sake of easy reading could you kindly name the person’s name as the world knows than Bonaparte etc, for example. If you think it reflects your deeper knowledge of the country and person, it is up to you.

Coming back to religion/culture debate, Indians, but not Pakistanis, would agree with you (a point you mentioned earlier) that creating a country based on religion does not work (Please correct me if I am misquoting you). Going back to your earlier statement, you indicated that your interpersonal skills become defective with person of another culture like Indians here. Does this mean you would like to have a country based upon culture, but not religion? How do you think this religion/culture debate is useful for Kashmir issue, the entry under which we are discussing all this.

Posted by rehmat | Report as abusive
 

@Rehmat
You are proving to be very persistent! You do not give up despite the fact that we have different chemistry. What a waste of energy?Perhaps you would be kind enough to tell me what I have been saying about Gurus. I would not even offer a drink to a Sikh out of respect. This I learnt in my life very early from a muslim gentleman. I will not hesitate for wrong words.

Now why is it that you do not understand a simple sentence in English language- PM Singh is the last sikh leader? How can I know if the next PM would also be a Sikh? Besides you clearly stated that Sikhs are not good leaders or something of that sort? I cannot call him PM Singh the first, since the second one has not taken the office yet.
I know that from my point of view you guys are too emotional but very clever. Perhaps if you are a bit cool and not trying to express your meanings for my words and not always play the role of an advocate, I would not hesitate to express my opinions.O’h, I better be careful, you guys are too fast in allocating labels and passing judgements like a lynching jury. The problem is that I could retaliate and afterwards I would feel sorry.
Therefore my principle has always been that if I cannot add something useful on this blog and you are staying put, then I should break off the diplomatic relations. I have suggested for Pakistan Govt.to do the same with India, instead of throwing accusations at each other.

Rex Minor

Posted by pakistan | Report as abusive
 

PS
I shall not hesitate to apologise for choosing wrong words!

Posted by pakistan | Report as abusive
 

@Rex

Initial part of my post was truncated.

Here I go again:

“Many new generation of turks in Germany have problems with German language in schools. Some youth of Turkish and Arab origin are not fully integrating(whatever it means) in the communities.”
***Do you really do not know what “integration” means? That means their interpersonal skills become defective like yours when talking to a person of another community. Remember you find it hard to have According to me, it means do not let your roots come in way of everything you do. That does not mean lose identity. That is my understanding in general, you should know the specifics in Germany.

Posted by rehmat | Report as abusive
 

@Rex Minor: As always, you’re all over the place without making much sense. I’m sorry but I can’t waste my time on this. You REALLY need to work on your writing & communication skills man!

Posted by Mortal1 | Report as abusive
 

@Rex

Call me advocate devil’s advocate, I do not care. I agree I do not have a chemistry woth you. But then I am not trying to have an affair here that I worry about “chemistry”, right? If you write something which I feel I should respond, I will. I am not trying to attach a carboxyl group on your tail bone that I need a good chemistry.

BTW, If chemistry is your prob, then you are stuck since you have that problem with everyone here. No one has a free pass to write whatever, uninterrupted.

NOW, let me be nice to you and respond to your questions, the best I can.

“Perhaps you would be kind enough to tell me what I have been saying about Gurus.”
***You said Sikh Gurus teach them violence. To a person who has had the opportunity to read about them, that is clearly wrong statement and knowing nothing. In fact, you should have known the answer if you were curious enough and googled after being corrected for your comments by Mortal or KPS. I know a bit about Sikhs too, at the risk of being thrown out of the “realm of Islam”. Hopefully not, if you know that the foundation of that temple was laid by Muslim Pir. So if you throw me out, Pir goes as well. You said Sikh Gurus teach them violence. This is not a fact if you would had the opportunity to read about them. Among all 10 Gurus, it was the last Guru which intoduced weapon as part of the attire for Sikhs due to what he felt the need of the times (it is not mandatory). Remaining nine were into spirituality, if I have to make a generalization. This is not to say the last one was not into spirituality. But this much is sufficient for now.

“I would not even offer a drink to a Sikh out of respect. This I learnt in my life very early from a muslim gentleman. I will not hesitate for wrong words.”
***Would you be kind enough to reciprocate what does it mean not to offer a drink?

“Now why is it that you do not understand a simple sentence in English language- PM Singh is the last sikh leader? How can I know if the next PM would also be a Sikh? Besides you clearly stated that Sikhs are not good leaders or something of that sort? I cannot call him PM Singh the first, since the second one has not taken the office yet.”
***It sounds funny when you tell someone about English comprehemsion.

I said in context of Khalistan, which was being discussed at that time. I made a statement with my knowledge of Akali Dal infighting that if they were to lead Khalsitan, it is good it did not happen. BTW, Mortal and I discussed about it and were clear about it. Since you do not know these details of Sikh political parties and people, you should stay out of it.

This is funny logic for putting out a last Sikh statement “How can I know if the next PM would also be a Sikh?”.

Point here is you are using what I said and using it for PM Singh. I know why? This is your OCD. you tend to attach something after everyperson. sarkozy “the Jew” “son of Hungarian immigrant” etc…

Posted by rehmat | Report as abusive
 

@Rex
“tell us simply if the caste system has been deleted from Hinduis”

Hinduism like Christianity has been a very progressive religion and has kept pace with changing times. Caste system anyway was not preached by religion itself but was practised by old Indian culture. And religion was used as a tool to further this evil. And since cultures also change with time so is caste system getting eradicated in our times. May be at a slow pace to your taste (to mine as well) but things are moving in right direction. As for religion Lord Krishna says “I am everywhere and in everyone.” So when same God is everywhere and resides in everyone then how religion can preach to discriminate between any two humans. Nowhere in Hinduism is it ‘written’ to practice caste system it has just been an old cultural ritual where high kings used to create divisions among ordinary people to gain their political goals. Unification of India under Brits (and NOT your favourite Persian rulers, they made it worst in fact) galvanised whole of India and later strong anti-discriminatory laws of independent India along with a modern education led to further reduction in discrimination on basis of caste. Come to India and talk to any educated 20 year old and then you would know if future of India has any place for caste system. Period.

“Try not to put faith and culture as one entity! I know there are some who do and this makes me feel very uncomfortable”

You are the one who does it most consistently by keep on poking Hindus with caste system evil. For last time Mr Moron, engrave this in your dumb head that caste system has got nothing to do with religion and is an old Indian practise which is gradually losing its place in new India.

Posted by 777xxx777 | Report as abusive
 

777xxx777: “You are the one who does it most consistently by keep on poking Hindus with caste system evil. For last time Mr Moron, engrave this in your dumb head that caste system has got nothing to do with religion and is an old Indian practise which is gradually losing its place in new India.”

I think these guys have grown up with little or no exposure to other religions. They have been brought up with a mentality that it is a great taboo to learn about other cultures and religions. With that limited knowledge, they see everything defined exactly the same way as their religion. It will be difficult for them to look at a pluralistic religious system which is not based on one founder or one God or one religious book. It is incomprehensible to them. So they end up mixing everything as one religion that is against theirs. They cannot differentiate between social issues and religious issues. Caste system is like racial prejudice in European cultures. It is social with religious sanction twisted to accommodate it. Anyway, you are massaging a corpse here.

Posted by KPSingh01 | Report as abusive
 

@777
Almost 700,000 records spring up with a google click and you are accusing me of poking hindus with a caste system. My read of some of the articles written by hindus was not very pleasant! This reminds me of John Mccain who produced a 100 page of medical history during election time and said that he has a clean bill of health. Let us close the subject, if you do’nt mind.

Rex Minor

Posted by pakistan | Report as abusive
 

Rex Minor,

Stop being intellectually dishonest. I asked you to Google specific terms which would tell you the progress made in India in the area of caste relations:

Before you talk about caste again, I expect you to do some research (not from stomach or guts please) on the following terms:

Mandal
SC/ST
OBC
Mayawati
BSP
DK and DMK

You refuse to read these items, and insist on pointing to articles that reinforce your existing point of view. This is dishonest of you (now don’t call that “foul language”).

Regards,
Ganesh Prasad

Posted by prasadgc | Report as abusive
 

@Rex
Google on “racist german” produced 3010000 results
Google on “islamic terrorism” produced 6,610,000 results
Google on “terrorist muslim” produced 6,610,000 results

Now apply your great intelligence on these results.

Posted by 777xxx777 | Report as abusive
 

@Rex
Google on “racist german” produces 3,010,000 results
Google on “islamic terrorism” produces 6,610,000 results
Google on “terrorist muslim” produces 18,700,000 results

Now apply your great intelligence on these results and let us have the benefit of your conclusions. I can go on and on with google. Dumb head Moron do you have any idea how google search engine actually works and operates. Often only first 50 or so results are actually useful. And if those 50 say something about caste system then please read again what I said that some people in power in ancient times wanted to keep it and same is happening now that some in power want caste system so as to achieve their mean political goals but religion DOES NOT sanction any kind of discrimination. When it comes to Islam all media is Jew controlled and when it comes to other religions then Google records all of a sudden become a measure of things. You really are a real dumb head. Never seen such a narrow minded fool in my life.

Yes close the subject because you anyway don’t even try to understand other person’s point of view.

Posted by 777xxx777 | Report as abusive
 

@777
There is only one soul which could tell you whether you are a moron r plain born dumb, and that is you and only you. And if the answer is in negative then we have nothing more to exchange.

Rex Minor

Posted by pakistan | Report as abusive
 

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