Pakistan: Now or Never?
Perspectives on Pakistan
Musharraf’s Kashmir deal, mirage or oasis?
Email 
Print
The foreign secretaries, or top diplomats, of India and Pakistan are expected to meet on the sidelines of a South Asian summit in Thimpu, Bhutan on Feb 6/7 to try to find a way back into talks which have been stalled since the attack on Mumbai in November 2008. Progress is expected to be limited, perhaps paving the way to a meeting of the foreign ministers, or to deciding how future talks should be structured.
Expectations are running low, all the more so after a meeting between the foreign ministers descended into acrimony last July. And leaders in neither country have the political space to take the kind of risks needed for real peace talks right now. Pakistan is struggling with the fall-out of the assassination of Punjab governor Salman Taseer among many other things, while Indian Prime Minister Manmohan Singh has been weakened by a corruption scandal at home.
However, in the interests of establishing a baseline, I asked former president Pervez Musharraf in an interview earlier this week about a roadmap for peace he had agreed with Prime Minister Singh in 2007 before political turmoil forced him out of office. The roadmap brought the two countries to their nearest in years to a peace deal, and during Barack Obama’s presidential election campaign, there was a great deal of hope it could be revived in order to ease tensions between India and Pakistan in turn helping to stabilise Afghanistan. Even after the Mumbai attacks ended chances of an early “Kashmir to Kabul” peace settlement, the idea has lingered on as one of the more promising models. Yet since the agreement was reached in secret, its details have never been officially released.
Diplomats say the agreement hinged on an acceptance by India and Pakistan that there would be no exchange of territory in disputed Kashmir but they would work to make irrelevant the Line of Control which divides the region. There was also supposed to be a “joint mechanism” under which Indians, Pakistanis and Kashmiris would oversee areas of common interest. No one can agree, however, on far advanced the talks were. Some say the deal was ready for signing; others that there was still a long way to go. In particular, the two countries had yet to agree the nature of the “joint mechanism”, and bring on board their own people and domestic constituencies in accepting the agreement. Here is what Musharraf had to say when I asked him about the sceptics’ view of the draft agreement:
“You are probably concentrating only on Kashmir. But there were two other issues, Sir Creek and Siachen. On Sir Creek and Siachen we reached a stage that they can be signed yesterday. There is no doubt in my mind.” The disputed territory in Sir Creek had been surveyed and was just awaiting a leadership decision, he said. ”Then Siachen, we had decided on the relocation of troops beyond certain lines, so everything is done.”
“Yes, Kashmir is not that easy. We had found basic parameters; it was my idea actually … the parameters were first of all demilitarising, which meant really demilitarising on the Line of Control; graduated demilitarisation from the Line of Control and also from the cities in the Indian part of Kashmir; that is what is bothering and troubling the civilians there; so therefore in first case leave the cities and go into the outskirts and then further getting to garrisons. The second element was maximum self-governance, and the third was an overwatch of those areas not given for self-governance, and also (to) see how the self-governance is functioning. This body we had proposed, I had proposed, (was to) be of Kashmiris, Pakistanis and Indians.
”So these were the parameters and then the issue was of the Line of Control, making the Line of Control irrelevant … The Indians thought we should make this as a permanent border. My view was that this has been the cause of wars. How can we have the cause of conflict as the permanent solution? So my idea was that we could look into making the Line of Control irrelevant.
”Now we were in the process of drafting an agreement. Obviously there were differences on the wording and the expressions.” He said that the leadership in both countries needed to show sincerity, flexibility and above all political courage to see the deal through. ”Because when you reach a deal or an agreement, there is always a give and take. Nobody will allow a take-and-take to the other side. So where there is a give-and-take the good path is the one which leader has faced boldly because there will be elements in your country who will agitate, on both sides, because the give has to be on both sides … So now I don’t know whether we could have shown that kind of guts and leadership that we arrived at a conclusion within six months, but we were making fast progress, that I know.”
Asked about how many people had been involved on the Pakistan side beyond Musharraf and his special envoy, Tariq Aziz, he said the foreign minister and foreign secterary were always taken on board, while Pakistan Army chief, General Ashfaq Pervez Kayani – then head of the Inter-Services Intelligence (ISI) – had been there since the beginning. “He was the DG-ISI, so he had to be on board.”
The draft agreement has been virtually disowned by the current government, which says it has no record of it, even in the Foreign Office.
“Do they want peace or not? If they want peace, then let them come up with another idea,” Musharraf said. “Nobody has the right to disown something that was moving forward unless you come out with another idea. If you have another idea by all means go ahead … but I believe that peace is essential.”
The former military ruler who plans to return to Pakistan to fight elections due by 2013 said he believed the deal could still be resurrected. It had been discussed with politicians on both sides of Kashmir, along with the main separatist alliance, the All Parties Hurriyat Conference, and everyone was on board on the parameters, he said. And nobody else had come with another solution.
Those Musharraf/Singh talks are history now. The two countries have reverted to their stated positions – Pakistan that the future of Kashmir must be settled through a plebiscite in line with U.N. resolutions; India that the region is such an integral part of the country that it does not even recognise its status as disputed.
Perhaps that deal was always going to be a mirage, the final details slipping elusively out of grasp. Or perhaps it is the only model that could ever have worked. At least if we know enough about what nearly happened we might be to assess better where talks might go in the future.
(Reuters photo: Musharraf speaks during an interview at his London home/Stefan Wermuth)
Comments RSSPost Your Comment
-
Author Profile
-
Umair,
I opened the blog and the second comment posted was:
” The only way Kashmir can be settled in today’s context will be by neutralizing Pakistan’s threat to the region by liberating Balochistan, Pashunistan and Sindh. A reduced Pakistan is needed before Kashmir equation can be looked at.”
I say solution lies in balkanisation of India. You have been ‘playing flute in front cow’ for a long time. Did this had any effect? Patriotic guy like you should be spending time in organising people like yourself and doing nation building work. These people are not your well wishers.
Umairpk: “Seems nothing changed since 1947.”
That was the purpose. It is called stalemate. You put the tail of one snake into the mouth of the other. Then you take the tail of the second snake and put it into the mouth of the first one. The two try to swallow each other and never make it. On top of that, they get tangled. Do you realize at least now why Pakistan was separated out of independent India? To keep the divide permanent. If you look into history of the sub-continent prior to the campaign by Jinnah, there was absolutely no clash between the common Hindus and Muslims. Massacres of that kind between the two communities did not happen. Muslim Sultans ruled many parts of the region with Hindu princes in their courts. And vice versa. They formed alliances and ran campaigns. But it was never based on religion.
The British had reduced Muslim power to naught after the Sepoy Mutiny. So they suddenly propped up the importance of Muslims being dominated by non-Muslims. Opportunistic politicians are aplenty. Each one takes up a cause and runs his campaign – some become Robin Hoods for the poor, some form communist leaders, some become union leaders, some become champions of a particular sect and so on. The British knew how to use these leaders to their advantage and keep the various factions directed at each other and away from themselves.
The British were pissed at Gandhi and his followers for their campaign for an independent India. If India went, their empire would not exist for long. WW II was taking their attention away from their colonies. They still believed that they would be a world super power after WW II. So they were concerned about Russians expanding into South Asia in their absence. If they had conquered Afghanistan, they would have felt secure. But they ran out of time. The next best option was to create a nation that would align with their interests and keep the Russians from aligning with the independent India. So they encouraged and propped up Jinnah. When it was realized that the common public had no interest in partitioning on religious lines, they allowed Jinnah to resort to violence as a means to create permanent divide. They did nothing to stem the violence.
They knew Jinnah was dying. So they hurried into granting independence. Indian Congress leaders asked for a delayed and phased independence.
Both India and Pakistan had British military commanders at the time of partition. Kashmir conflict was created to keep the two locked in perpetual dead lock.
Pakistan on the outside looks like a nation created to protect Muslims from Hindus. The real reason is geo-strategic in nature. The British ruled the whole world using such schemes.
The reason why Pakistan could not settle down as a democratic and secular nation and became a military dominated nation is because it was never allowed to by these powers. They encouraged the military leaders and started interfering in Pakistan’s internal politics. US simply replaced UK as the next power and continued with the same campaign.
In 1989, the objective of creating Pakistan was achieved. After that it was abandoned. Now the same powers are sitting on the opposite side of Pakistan and letting it burn.
You must see through everything to understand the reality. We are all puppets that have been manipulated. Your generals are playing into their hands and have kept the people divided. Jinnah was their agent. And so are your generals.
India survived because Nehru understood the reasons and campaigned hard for non-aligned movement. If India had taken sides like Pakistan did, it would have had no democracy. Coups would have happened and India would have disappeared.
Umair,
I opened the blog and the second comment posted was:
” The only way Kashmir can be settled in today’s context will be by neutralizing Pakistan’s threat to the region by liberating Balochistan, Pashunistan and Sindh. A reduced Pakistan is needed before Kashmir equation can be looked at.”
You have been ‘playing flute in front cow’ for a long time. Did this had any effect? Patriotic guy like you should be spending time in organising people like yourself and doing nation building work. These people are not our well wishers.
I haven’t been here for a while.
See the same empty bravado by Umairpk, meanwhile pakistan has gone down further…and keeps going down and down..
Nuclear weapons will not prevent you from internal anarchy and economic collapse….It is also hilarious to see Umairpk’s comments to the effect paks are resilient, etc. I see this from other blogs as well. Pakistan is intact still because it has been kept alive by USA through billions of dollars year after year.
p.s
Liar Musharaff’s delusional ramblings should not be taken too seriously…
babag”You have been ‘playing flute in front cow’ for a long time. Did this had any effect? Patriotic guy like you should be spending time in organising people like yourself and doing nation building work. These people are not our well wishers”
-I agree with you, ‘bhens ke aage been bajana’ results in nothing, I would follow your advice moving forward and not be wasting much of time. It is better to organize ourselves and devote our energies for nation building and let some of the dogs bark. It will make no difference to us.
> These people are not our well wishers
What a pity. One should learn to distinguish between malice, anger born of frustration, constructive criticism, etc., and not view every confronting statement as evil. If one only associates with people who think the same way, what more will we ever learn? Speaking for myself, I try to look beyond heated statements and try to understand sentiments of people on the other side of the border. I think I get a good sense of how other human beings think, even if I don’t always agree. It is an enriching experience for me. Withdrawing from discussion may yield immediate comfort, but puts a stop to understanding (if that is the goal).
Remember, we’re not officials and do not change policy. We’re here to understand. It’s not about countries. Countries form a certain context. It’s about human beings.
I suspect that one day, peace will break out (due to forces of history if nothing else), and all the hateful rhetoric will dissolve into sheepish grins. Why be embarrassed when that happens? Prepare for it now.
Regards,
Ganesh Prasad
From my experience on this blog, the psyche of most Pakistanis has been damaged beyond repair. Finger pointing & chest thumping has been etched in their concience & is their answer for most of their problems. They’ve been taught to hate India & Indians from birth, which is reinforced everyday in their classrooms, at home, via their media etc. and now that India is progressing rapidly while their own country is going in the other direction, their animosity, envy & paranoia are reaching newer hights. I know I’m being pessimistic but I’m afraid peace between India & Pakistan seems quite far-fetched at this time.
GANESH:”I suspect that one day, peace will break out (due to forces of history if nothing else), and all the hateful rhetoric will dissolve into sheepish grins.”
-Hope so, same here and I had some good discussions with you previously. hopefully we keep the communication open. But i will not engage in tit for tat responses. Only positive comments and engage in constructive discussion. I will ignore unneccessary foolish comments.
Umair,
I’ll be in Islamabad in a few months, would like to meet you?
babag:
-Sure,welcome you can drop me an email, umairmalik_pk at yahoo dot com. When you come we’ll meet InshAllah.
@Umair
“Ganesh/Rehmat, ofcourse Pakistan does not view Kashmir as an integral part of India. At best Kashmir is defined as a disputed territory. In the above propsed Musharraf solution Pakistan never demanded Kashmir to be handed over and made a part of Pakistan. There has to be a give and take on both sides.”
*** I have seen common Pakistanis singing a different song than you mentioned above. They all say Kashmir must be handed over to Pakistan since it is Muslim majority place. I disagree with you what your politicians say. Can you defeat the contradiction between self-determination for Kashmiris (Pakistani politicians and you say that) and ban by Pakistan on a Kashmiri political party in AJK that disagrees with “Kashmir banega Kashmir”.
So where are we now?
Throughout their history the Kashmiri people have remained non violent people. The least these people deserve is the right to decide their own future in a democracy. How much accomodating India would be to support democracy for these citizens is going to determine the future of India? Pakistan has no valid card any more to play other than to allow the Kashmiris to unite with their second half living in the Indian occupied territory I say occupied territory since the Indian army moved in at the request of the Sikh Maharaja not the kashmiri people, who under the Brits was ruling this paradise on eath.
The Nehru family opposed the unity on account of pressure from its religious Pundit clergy and Mr Manhohan Singh is the last surviving Sikh leader who is playing to the melody of hindu leaders. Indian governor General at the time, one of the Betanbergs(the friends of Nehru family, not Mr jinnah as Mr KP stated) supported Indian march into Kashmir. History is the evidence that oppressed people have never vanished into oblivion as long as they have the will for survival. Kashmiris do not need con men like Musharaf or Zardari, Singhs or Gillanis but the will for freedom and faith in the almighty God who determines and controls the fate of the mankind.
They got rid of the Brits, the Maharaja and they have been learning long enough to get themself rid of the Indian and Pakistani political elites! I wish them courage.
Rex Minor
Pakistan: “The least these people deserve is the right to decide their own future in a democracy.”
It is not as simple as that. Kashmiris demand a separate state because they are majority Muslims. It has already been tried in the case of Pakistan and it led to no life in paradise. If Kashmiris demand self determination because they are Kashmiris, then everyone is entitled to demand the same in some name or another. And it will never end. Kashmir was a part of the Magadha empire that stretched from Afghanistan, all the way up to Bengal and way down South. Like China has been doing, one can always quote some historical basis for claiming territories. Europe has united under one union. These were nations that fought each other tooth and nail not long ago. Therefore dividing an already united India further makes no sense. If India had degenerated and self destructed over time, then it makes sense to look at other alternatives. That has not been the case. Pakistan did try its best to prop up the implosion of India and burnt itself in the bargain.
Kashmir is an extremely important geo-strategic region for us. At this time, that is the case. We have extremely hostile neighbors, both nuclear armed and united against us. Letting Kashmir go at this time would be a geo-strategic suicide for us. It has nothing to do with the people there. It is simply geo-politics. India has contained Pakistan in the barren Siachien glacier for the same reason. If Kashmiris hate India so much, they can migrate to other Islamic paradises nearby. We have no problems with that. If the pundits there can be driven out of their homes, I see no issues with Kashmiri Muslims going elsewhere. India is not foolish to give up Kashmir now. Sorry. The case is closed.
“How much accomodating India would be to support democracy for these citizens is going to determine the future of India?”
Kashmiris are not some three eyes, four headed humans that need special status. They have a choice. They can go along with the rest of India like everyone else is doing. Or leave and go elsewhere where their sympathetic brothers are willing to accommodate them and support them. There is nothing different in the handling of Kashmiris versus the rest of Indians. Our Golden temple was laid waste twenty five years ago by the same military. We have moved on. Kashmiris will need to take the same adjustments. India should declare once in for all that Kashmir is its integral part and it is no longer anyone’s business. They are pelting stones and trying to taunt our security forces because they believe that Pakistan can always be relied upon.
We are a democracy and we want people to respect that first. Contempt is not going to be tolerated.
“Pakistan has no valid card any more to play other than to allow the Kashmiris to unite with their second half living in the Indian occupied territory I say occupied territory since the Indian army moved in at the request of the Sikh Maharaja not the kashmiri people, who under the Brits was ruling this paradise on eath.”
Pakistan should cede Azad Kashmir to India and be done with it. There is no law in this world that Muslim majority regions all should join other Muslim majority states. Everyone has equal rights to the resources. I see nothing special for Kashmiris. Let them share their lives with the rest of us. We are all doing fine. India is not going to give up Kashmir because some people who have no idea what democracy is are demanding democratic values from others.
“The Nehru family opposed the unity on account of pressure from its religious Pundit clergy”
This is utter nonsense. Nehru family has just one man – Nehru. And he fought hard for a secular India. He was a Hindu by the accident of birth. There was no religious pundit clergy pulling strings on him. Stop making up stories.
“and Mr Manhohan Singh is the last surviving Sikh leader who is playing to the melody of hindu leaders.”
Sonia Gandhi is a Catholic from Italy. She calls the shots. And not some Hindu leader.
“Indian governor General at the time, one of the Betanbergs(the friends of Nehru family, not Mr jinnah as Mr KP stated) supported Indian march into Kashmir.”
Quote a valid reference. Otherwise it is pure BS.
“History is the evidence that oppressed people have never vanished into oblivion as long as they have the will for survival.”
One thing I find is that whenever Muslims are in a minority they create enough hue and cry about their rights and being oppressed etc. When they are in the majority, the give a rats ass about others’ rights or values. The days of the Arab rulers are over. Welcome to the modern world – everyone needs to drink from the same well. Muslims alone cannot have their way everywhere. if Kashmiris demand rights because they are Muslims, they have plenty already in the secular India. If they do not like it, they can migrate to Saudi Arabia.
“Kashmiris do not need con men like Musharaf or Zardari, Singhs or Gillanis but the will for freedom and faith in the almighty God who determines and controls the fate of the mankind.”
You have never raised any word about the sufferings of Kurdish Muslims at the hands of Turks and Sunni Iraqis. If at all any Muslim community is being oppressed, it is the Kurds. So shed your crocodile tears towards them. Kashmir will be fine so long as people learn to obey the law of the land.
> You have never raised any word about the sufferings of Kurdish Muslims at the hands of Turks and Sunni Iraqis.
Or about the oppression of the Uighur Muslims by China. That’s another contradiction in the Pakistani position. If one has to show solidarity with oppressed Muslims everywhere, then why not take on the all-weather ally, eh? A discreet silence there…
Regards,
Ganesh Prasad
Ganesh: “If one has to show solidarity with oppressed Muslims everywhere, then why not take on the all-weather ally, eh? A discreet silence there…”
It is politics again. They are very selective on what they demand from their foes and what they should not from their allies. That is why all this self determination demand, Muslim oppression cries etc are pure political weapons used by Pakistanis and their supporters. And political demands of this kind should not be entertained. They demanded a nation for themselves and got it. And they need to stop there and go about their business. But they have made it a livelihood to raise campaign against India and have done nothing for themselves. It is always easier to disobey laws, pelt stones, stage strikes, riots etc against an establishment. But it is a very different game when it comes to running an administration. Pakistanis never paid attention to governing. They have chosen the easier path – protest using some cause and treat India like their establishment.
India has done very well in stemming the BJP yatra in Kashmir. Because the motive is purely political to make a gain.
“and Mr Manhohan Singh is the last surviving Sikh leader who is playing to the melody of hindu leaders.”
Posted by pakistan
Are you so darn backward & narrow minded that you have to look at everything in a religious context? Manmohan Singh is India’s PM, not because he’s a sikh but because of his credentials & party affiliations & as KP pointed, the congress presdient Sonia Gandhi is a Christian. BTW, if you want to go deeper, even the Gandhi family is not hindu, it’s actually zorastrian because Indira Gandhi’s husband, Feroz Gandhi, was a zorastrian.
> Are you so darn backward & narrow minded that you have to look at everything in a religious context?
It’s hard for us to understand this mindset. I guess we’ve grown up with pluralism and don’t see everything in terms of religious divisions. It’s probably a way of looking at the world that is ingrained in these folk and very hard to break out of.
Regards,
Ganesh Prasad
Ganesh: “It’s hard for us to understand this mindset”
This guy claims to be living in Germany. I am sure he has access to all modern amenities where he can get any reference he wants and educate himself on the issues to broaden his outlook. If he prefers to maintain a cave dweller’s mindset it tells how close minded he has grown up during his formative years. This is an educated guy. If he can be this backward in his views, one can tell how deeply ingrained is the radicalization in Pakistan is. It was started three decades ago and it is beginning to bear fruit. Imagine how many like this are in Pakistan and abroad. One thing I see is a persistent refusal to look outside the box. These guys rely on emotions and feelings more. They prefer what they hear on the streets and mosques and do not want to question anything or go look at the facts for themselves. Ego prevents them from listening to any valid statements by Indians at the same time. Education and living in an open environment has nothing to do with one’s personal attitude and mindset. Once a bigot, always a bigot.
“It’s hard for us to understand this mindset”
I was going to say what KP said. This guy has been supposedly living in western europe for god knows how long & he claims to be educated, so I find his narrow mindedness quite peculiar. I guess, you can take a mullah out of a cave but can’t take the cave out of the mullah.
@Indian Mob
I recognise that every sixth person in the world is going to be an Indian, but my experience is that you guys swarm immediatey in every blog which is discussion Pakistan, like bees and pounce on a blogger having a different view. In my case you did not even await my reply to KP. I was out of town travelling and, while I was able to read KP’s comments on my IPad, I do not use use the gadget for sending replies.
You guys do not have to make snotty comments about my person, without having the slightest idea about me. stop your guesses, keep yourself concentrated on what I said and not on what I do not say. I know that you guys read a lot but your conclusions would be faulty if you are not careful and make wrong judgement. Even the wikileak founder describes his invention being inaccurate, but you quote them as scriptures, which incidently some of you tend to challenge. You blame the religion and muslim clergy for the revolution which is taking place in muslim countries around the world including Pakistan, following the propaganda broadcasts from the USA media or 5th columnists liberals of Pakistan.
In your country, if one would follow KP, one would consider Indian Sikhs as a dead wood. Sonia Gandhi is not the one who is calling shots, but the majority of Indian people do! You believe in a plurastic democracy but then are not prepared to grant the citizens the right to separate from India, which Indian Govt. occupied by force. In your clever views it would be unwise for Kashmiris to gain their freedom and independence if they so desire. Sudanese christians from south are separating from the Northern Sudan, and even got the blessing in advance of the results from Mr Obama in his speach to the congress. No one knows if seaparation is going to be good for the people or bring disastor in the region. These are the rules of democracy. Pakistan became a separate country on account of its own free will and as of this day Indian Congress party and its Govts. have not managed to swallow the bitter pill, intervened with military in Kashmir and later in Bengal and still clamouring on the border justifying one act after the other, and now even demanding that Pakistan provides security for India. This is the short sighted story of India politics, which is heading for destruction and not for economic growth. The story of muslims is a relatively very simple and straightforward one, their armies have usually gone out of their bunkers(not caves) for destruction and not to conquer the territory. History is the evidence not larifari strategic interests or to create a Islamic mullah controlled State.
The USA or the West always blame religious clergy for the ills of muslim countries because of simple ignorance and lack of knowledge of the Islamic culture, and based on their own experience with clergy and the powerful church.iran is the only muslim country I know of which is controlled by the muslim clergy to withstand the Super power pressure. American persistent intervention into the domestic affairs of others is the source for this resistence.
I have always been on the side of the victims, not the aggressors and I would be the first to condemn violence irrespective of the faith ofg the people. I would be prepared to condemn muslims who commit violence against civilians particularly non muslim ones, wheather it happens in Pakistan, Egypt or Sudan. This does not mean that muslims are entititled for resistance.
Islam means peace and those who commit violence against muslims or non muslims are no more than ordinary criminals, breaking the basic tenets of humanity and Islamic, christian and jewish teachings. I do not have the slightest idea of Hindu and Sikh religions. And I am reluctant to learn from the rants of KP or sikhs being told by their Gurus to wander around in army, O’k now they do it for symbolic purpose in Europe. Incidently there is nothing in Islamic religion about the dress as long as one wears a dress and covers one genitals!
So stop your rudeness which simply reflects your lack of education and upbringing! If you have the ability to learn then you have the opportunty to learn even as far away as in the Kangaroo land or the land of lumber jacks!
Rex Minor
PS
CORRECTION
1) This does not mean that muslims are ‘NOT’ entitled for resistance.
2) Sikhs being told by their Gurus to wande around in ‘ARMS’.
Note: It is considererd in most world cultures when you address each other on this blog and discuus the third person. And do not tell me that this is normal in indian culture. This is simply a ‘mob’ culture. Try to present yourself as a cultured person from India, if you must.
Rex Minor
@Rex
Can you for once stop thinking about India-Pakistan conflict as Hindu-Muslim conflict and view it just as territory dispute between any two normal countries?? Try it.
Try to present yourself as a open minded person from Germany, if you must.
@”I recognise that every sixth person in the world is going to be an Indian, but my experience is that you guys swarm immediatey in every blog which is discussion Pakistan” Posted by pakistan
We (Indians) have many valid reasons to be concerned about pakistan & have an interest in that country but may I ask why the heck are you floating around in numerous Pakistan related blogs, since you claim to be a non-Pakistani & not even from the region?
@”keep yourself concentrated on what I said and not on what I do not say. I know that you guys read a lot but your conclusions would be faulty if you are not careful and make wrong judgement.”
Our judgment about you is based on what you have said on this blog. Most of your comments have religious undertones & you identify & judge most individuals by their religion. For you an individual is a jew, hindu, sikh, christian etc. before anything else and if he/she is especially a jew, you are quick to pass a negative judgment on that person. Your bigotry is not lost on anyone.
@”I have always been on the side of the victims, not the aggressors and I would be the first to condemn violence irrespective of the faith ofg the people.”
From your comments, it’s clear that you are ONLY on the side of muslims, irrespective of whether they are the agressors or victims. I have yet to see you comdemn islamic terrorism because based on your thinking, a muslim is always a victim, even if he blows up a building with 500 innocent civilians in it.
@”Sikhs being told by their Gurus to wande around in ‘ARMS’”
Carrying the ‘ARM’ or a kirpan (miniauture sword) is actually nothing more than symbolism. It’s injunction was introduced about 300 yrs ago by the last sikh guru, in order to protect the weak against tyranny & slavery of the mughal invaders. BUT I agree that in this day & age, carrying it is meaningless. Personally, I have never carried it & I don’t know of many people who do (especially my generation or even the previous one). Ideally, the scriptures & texts of all religions should be updated to reflect the current period but obviously that is not the case.
@”You believe in a plurastic democracy but then are not prepared to grant the citizens the right to separate from India, which Indian Govt. occupied by force. In your clever views it would be unwise for Kashmiris to gain their freedom and independence if they so desire.”
There are many democracies in the world & none of them take polls in their states/provinces to secede from the union. The US has 50 states & the people living in all those states have the right to chose their leaders & repesentatives but they do not have the right to start a secessionist movement. Same goes for the citizens of UK, France, Germany, Japan and many other countries. Kashmiris in India also have democracy like the rest of the Indians. They are free to elect their leaders & representatives in fair & free elections held there (which they did in the last elections) but they will not be given the right to secede from the Union of India because no Indian state has that right. For all their crocodile tears, even Pakistan will not allow their part of kashmir to secede from their republic. In fact all elected leaders of PoK are required to pledge allegience to the Pakistani state before assuming office & if they don’t, they are barred from official capacity.
Mortal:”We (Indians) have many valid reasons to be concerned about pakistan & have an interest in that country”
-Could you please define the precise interest you Indians have in Pakistan? can you please elaborate on this statement of yours because something does not seem right? I want to know what is your interest? do you want Pakistan to be a failed state? do you want to destroy Pakistan? what is your obsession. There has to be a reason why it is only Indians who come on this blog and comment frequently. Feel free to let your thoughts known, I am not an ISI analyst.
PS
just as Pakistan has an interest in Afghanistan, to see a stable and neutral Afghan not necessarily allied with Islamabad but atleast not aggressive towards Islamabad and one which does not collaborate with our Eastern neighbour and push us towards ‘strategic encirclement’. Do you have some similar interest in Pakistan? to see a stable and prosperous Pakistan not endangering India’s domestic security? or is it something else. Because an interest can also be defined as stoking insurgency in Baluchistan. I want to know this ‘interest’. Or prove me I am being paranoid. would appreciate a valid comprehensive response. Thx
Pakistan: “Sonia Gandhi is not the one who is calling shots, but the majority of Indian people do!”
But you said Manmohan Singh is controlled by Hindu leaders. Let me quote you here: “Mr Manhohan Singh is the last surviving Sikh leader who is playing to the melody of hindu leaders”
If the majority of the Indian people call the shots, where did you come up with your analysis that Hindu leaders are playing the melody? Which Hindu leaders? Since you seem to know more, can you tell me who they are? And what makes Man Mohan Singh the last surviving Sikh leader? Did the others get killed off? Your world view seems to be very narrow and you are lecturing others to follow your myopic guidelines.
“You believe in a plurastic democracy but then are not prepared to grant the citizens the right to separate from India, which Indian Govt. occupied by force.”
Pluralistic democracy is meant for electing leaders periodically to govern the nation. It is not meant for facilitating self destruction by secession. Indian government has not occupied the place by force. It sent in the security forces to contain and eliminate Islamic insurgency launched by Pakistan in 1989. We have said this to you many times and you are proving to us that you are not only blind, but also deaf. It would be great if you are mute as well.
“In your clever views it would be unwise for Kashmiris to gain their freedom and independence if they so desire”
What Kashmiris have is frustration built up over their place turning into a war zone between Pakistan launched militants and Indian security forces. They cannot do anything to the criminals sent in by Pakistan. So they are taking it out on our brave soldiers who have lost many in their ranks to the bullets of insurgents. We have made our sacrifices and they are not for nothing. If peace prevails in Kashmir, economy will revive and people will get to live. That’s all they want. And we are working on that. India has sent in a fact finding mission and we are waiting for their recommendations. But we are not even discussing independence to anyone at this time. So please sit in Germany and cool your rear end with some ice blocks.
“Sudanese christians from south are separating from the Northern Sudan, and even got the blessing in advance of the results from Mr Obama in his speach to the congress.”
Do you realize that they are seceding from a Muslim majority North? That must tell something. And Sudan is a not a pluralistic, multi-cultural democratic nation that is a respected member of the world community. The cases are totally different and you are equating apples to oranges.
“No one knows if seaparation is going to be good for the people or bring disastor in the region.”
We have to learn from history. Those who do not are bound to repeat the same mistakes. Pakistan separated in the name of religion. I do not have to mention its current status. We will not allow Kashmir to separate in the name of religion. I have already explained the geo-strategic nature of the region before. The reason why Pakistan is unwilling to let go of its grip on the Taliban and militant groups is the same – geo-strategic plans. These elements are the ones that Pakistan is hoping on to bring into Afghanistan after the US leaves and reduce India’s influence there.
“These are the rules of democracy.”
Looks like you have a very limited experience with it. You are the guy who pretended not to know anything about East Pakistan genocide right? You made a half hearted acknowledgment after Rehmat gave you some facts. Did you know that your wonderful nation Pakistan did not acknowledge the democratic election of Sheikh Mujibur Rehman to Presidency? Did you know that it was because he was a Bengali? Go read up more and you will know you do not deserve to lecture us about democracy.
“Pakistan became a separate country on account of its own free will”
No it did not. Do not propagate lies. Pakistan was formed by instigating violence against non-Muslims and by using the retaliation to alienate Muslims and drive them towards Pakistan. And Pakistan was formed for a geo-strategic reason by the British colonial empire. When the free will of the Muslims was sought by vote, Pakistan’s proposal was rejected by an overwhelming 65% of the Muslim population.
“and as of this day Indian Congress party and its Govts. have not managed to swallow the bitter pill, intervened with military in Kashmir”
You are repeating the same lies over and over again. We have given enough references and have tried to enlighten you on many occasions that India did not invade Kashmir. It was done by the tribals launched by Pakistan. It was India which took the case to UN. It was Pakistan that refused to obey the UN resolution. India and Pakistan had the Simla accord in 1972 which replaced the 1948 UN resolutions. Pakistanis and their supporters have conveniently ignored all facts. Mass repetition of lies will not change the facts.
“and later in Bengal and still clamouring on the border justifying one act after the other,”
Did you know that 10 million Bengalis flooded India because of Pak army launched genocide in East Pakistan? Are you choosing to ignore that truth? India had to intervene in East Pakistan. If India was an imperial power like you are projecting, it would have annexed East Pakistan in 1971. The fact that we did not shows that ours was an honorable intervention that stopped barbarism.
“and now even demanding that Pakistan provides security for India.”
Where did you come up with this one? Can you provide some news paper article at least to substantiate your asinine claims?
“This is the short sighted story of India politics,”
Short sighted story all right. That is the appropriate phrase for your words here.
“which is heading for destruction and not for economic growth.”
We know you are burning inside with jealousy. But unfortunately for you, things are going the other way. Sorry if it hurts.
“The story of muslims is a relatively very simple and straightforward one, their armies have usually gone out of their bunkers(not caves) for destruction and not to conquer the territory.”
Really? Then tell me how regions that were independent from Spain to Central Asia became Islamic? Have you ever read about Arab conquests? Have you heard of Muhammad Bin Qasim? What would you call him as?
“History is the evidence not larifari strategic interests or to create a Islamic mullah controlled State”
But that is what is going on now.
@”Could you please define the precise interest you Indians have in Pakistan? can you please elaborate on this statement of yours because something does not seem right? I want to know what is your interest? do you want Pakistan to be a failed state? do you want to destroy Pakistan? what is your obsession.” Posted by Umairp
Personally, I had never visited a Pakistani news site or blog before the Mumbai attacks in Nov 2008 & I suspect there are many Indians/people of Indian origin like me, whose interest in Pakistan peaked after that incident. Prior to Nov 2008, Pakistan was nothing more than nuiscance value for me, due to it’s constant nibbling at India & targeting of innocent indian civilians via state & non-state actors. I admit that initially when I started commenting on this blog, I just wanted to vent my anger but gradually it transformed into a desire to understand the Pakistani perspective & the reasons for their animosity & belligerence towards India & Indians (especially hindus). I have interacted with my Pakistani friends here but most of them are quite liberal since they were either born here or have been out of Pakistan for decades, so I wanted to know the thought process of the average Pakistani in Pakistan.
As for what I want Pakistan to become, I have said it many times that I would like for Pakistan to stabalize, eliminate ALL forms of terrorism (including India-centric groups) and become a progressive & moderate state, with which India has good relations. I don’t want Pakistan to become a failed state because I feel that would destabalize the region & potentially, the world as well. I have no interest in seeing Pakistan break up but I also don’t want to see any more ‘confrontations’ from Pakistan via non-state actors or meddling by Pakistan in India’s affairs & that includes J&K. I want India & Pakistan to build relations & resolve all conflicts/disputes, peacefully & amicably.
(BTW, this is the only Pakistan related blog which I visit & comment on.)
Mortal
Good luck to u, thx for reply. I tried to reason and let u know that Pakistan is just another country facing its share of problems. Just as back in 1980s a war in Afghanistan affected Pakistan, today the situation in Pakistan started to show its affect on India (mumbai 08) Hope for peace. All views expressed here are my personal. we can agree or disagree with each other and engage in debate. I too started to get myself aware of whats happening in Pakistan as i found myself coming back to Pakistan from overseas and I was in the middle of a mess without understanding what was causing it. We both are same, seeking knowledge, you read N.F Paracha etc and like his writing. I can reccomend a few books that can also help u understand the backdrop/history of the some problems Pakistan faces. Got to go for now. short of time.
@Umair
“I want to know this ‘interest’. Or prove me I am being paranoid. would appreciate a valid comprehensive response.”
***Umair, valid questions from you. You are a nice guy and in my personal experience you ask these questions and when you get a reply, you do not go through with the discussion. Recall you asked me specifically to convince you why Indian is not an existential threat and I responded. You wrapped it up in one line and stopped the discussion there. That is sad!
Why Indians are interested? I am sad you asked this question.
@Baluchistan question
***If ISI has not been able to give any evidence of Indian involvement in Baluchistan, Indians on these blogs got to be better than ISI to provide you an answer. Rest all is going in circles.
Umair you should accept that your country has a hostile foreign policy towards India. Need you be reminded of the wars that pakistan started? I would think that as minor reason, because today no army can afford to start an all out war. Bigger reason for Indians is that your country manufactures TERRORISTS in the name of ISLAM and sorry to say you are silent supporters of that policy in the name of your “misperceptions”. What is happening in Pakistan is very sad. we can talk of death to “others” on such platforms but when we see an innocent person up close from either side of the border being blown up by these so-called JIHADIS, only a heartless person will stay quiet and not openly condemn these acts. Indians are worried that there are lot of Pakistanis who support a section of terrorists that have been blowing up innocent Indians in the name of religion. So the bigger worry where you and I would agree is that India will be screwed big time if Pakistan goes totally out of control. My personal belief is that Pakistan IS going to stay but unfortunately it will be inhabitable place for free thinking humans for a long time. Remember construction takes more time than destruction. You can do the math that it all started in 1979 which means it took 31years to reach this situation. Making a screeching halt and U-turn and do remedial work will not be complete in your lifetime. I hope you see the positive trend in next few decades. Indians do not want to be screwed by these extremists and worry about the spillover if something bigger happens.
I do not love the “idea of Pakistan” but I have no malice for you common guys and nor do most Indians for their own sake.
@KPS
“We have said this to you many times and you are proving to us that you are not only blind, but also deaf. It would be great if you are mute as well.”
***Could not stop myself. This one had me rolling.
Umair,
The reason that I have been interacting with you all this while, is because I think that you are a good guy & I don’t sense the animosity & vengefulness in you, which I have in some others. Yes, we have differences & sometimes we all say things out of emotion, which we don’t intend to but overall, I’ve gotten a positive vibe from you. If a majority of Pakistani youth are like you, I have hope that we can sort out the differences which previous generations weren’t able to. I would also like to add that one other reason that Indians are so interested in Pakistan is because somehow, we feel emotionally attached to you guys. Yes, sometimes that attachment translates into anger & frustration but still, despite everything, we feel like you are our own. Bear in mind that a vast majority of Indians (except a few fringe elements) do not wish harm to Pakistan. Always remember that at the end of the day, no one can or will understand you Pakistanis better than us Indians, not the Chinese or the Arabs & not even the Afghans, Bangladeshis or Sri Lankan. A majority of Indians might not share your religion, but we have a lot more in common than our differences.
Good luck to you as well & be safe!
Rehmat:”when we see an innocent person up close from either side of the border being blown up by these so-called JIHADIS, only a heartless person will stay quiet and not openly condemn these acts.”
-Rehmat/Mortal, Pakistan is not insane society, i do not have much good news to share these days from Pakistan. But yesterdays newspaper had the picture of Aisam Ul Haq and Rohan Bopanna from India their T-sharts painted with grafitti Start Tennis, stop war. Both guys from India and Pakistan have played in mixed doubles in a number of tennis tournaments, are part of ‘Aman ki Asha’ (desire for peace) initiative between Jang group newspaper and times of India.
Also, Just listen to this song from Pakistani pop singers titled ‘Ye hum nahi’ you will need to understand Urdu/Hindi to understand it:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KlCF8gMxy PM&feature=related
Apart from that, Pakistan army is using the national television to play drama serials based on true stories of officers and men wounded/martyred in war against terror to win Public support/pave the way for much needed military offensive in militant infested areas.
http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/ecc0e474-258d- 11e0-8258-00144feab49a.html#ixzz1CIX9Xmm a
Beyond the Call of Duty: Invincible Spirits, Immortal Souls
http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/ecc0e474-258d- 11e0-8258-00144feab49a.html#axzz1CIX3Iff R
Pakistan army enlists drama to rally public
a clip:
http://video.ft.com/v/757569895001/Propa ganda-wars-in-Pakistan
Make no mistake, Pakistan is putting up a fight and this nation does not give up so easily. Come what may, we will beat the odds. InshAllah. You don’t like the ‘idea of Pakistan’ that is not my problem. But decide which side you pick, on the other hand is the propaganda war of terrorists who propagate to kill in the name of Islam. What else can you ask from a nation that has suffered thousands of casualties and silently bear the pain of departing loved ones.
Rehmat:
“So the bigger worry where you and I would agree is that India will be screwed big time if Pakistan goes totally out of control”
-Isn’t it about time India signs a no war pact, move its Army from Pakistan border, make progress on Kashmir dispute, stop ranting Pakistan is epicenter of terrorism and work on intelligence sharing etc. Allay fears, assist Pakistan to redeploy forces to militant infested areas requiring military ops? still few Indians propose to create mischief in Baluchistan, further divide Pakistan etc. As stated, India must rather support the initiatives taken by Pakistan. Only then both countries can make progress, for example Pakistan and russia have buried the hatched and started to cooperate with each other on security issues. Both nation’s history is bitter, no friendship in past but future demands to work together. I think as much as some Indians would love to see Pakistan implode, your worst nightmares would come true with a huge chaotic state just next door, armed with nukes, hotbed of terror. The forces of order in Pakistan is its Army and its people. All others are a source of chaos. Still always i read Indian bashing the Pak Army and ISI as aiding and abetting terror? Some pattern does not fit here.
But it is easier to blame other for inaction, incompetence instead to look upon ones own deficiency. Though, I state I am an optimist and think no challenge is difficult to overcome for Pakistan nation. How we will be able to make it, with unity, fixing the economy, creating jobs, putting education system in place, bringing reforms and good governance. All challenges faced by normal developing nations. Once again, Pakistan is just another country with its share of problems.
Hopefully you understand we are being vocal against terrorism in many ways, through arts, dramas and songs. Through sending our men and women in uniform in harms way to protect our country from violent terrorists. making sure our soil is not used for plotting attack on others. And I am sure in stating all this i represent the street view in Pakistan, the common man majority.
Umairpk: “Isn’t it about time India signs a no war pact, move its Army from Pakistan border, make progress on Kashmir dispute, stop ranting Pakistan is epicenter of terrorism and work on intelligence sharing etc. Allay fears,”
All this sounds nice. But have you observed that you are demanding everything from India and none from your country? We need two hands for a clap. India has tried peace initiatives with Pakistan on many occasions. Pakistan has tried wars with India on different occasions. Whenever a peace attempt was made, immediately it was derailed by Pakistan’s military or its proxy elements. If we take one step forward, the whole thing moves two steps backward. Do you agree that there are different parties inside Pakistan with different agendas and goals? Your army general has openly said that India is the number one enemy. Your Jihadists groups and the ISI have a different agenda. When things were beginning to warm up between the two countries, they launched the Mumbai attacks. Your civilian government is made up of puppets who reflect your military’s masters’ edicts. When our government offered financial aid during the flooding, they were treated with utter contempt. Even taking aid from India seemed to be a shameful thing for some Pakistanis. When this is the situation, explain to us how we can forget our self respect and dignity and keep offering peace initiatives? For a change, let us see if Pakistan will withdraw its forces from the border as a friendly gesture. India has no interest in moving into Pakistan. We did not invade your country or unleash proxy war when your country was flooded. Let us see if ordinary people like you realize first that we are not your enemy. Once you said that we are not your enemy, but we are not your friends either. A lot of things stem from negative attitude. Unless that attitude goes away, nothing will progress. We are only reacting to everything. If Pakistan makes one peace overture it will be returned many times over by India. Let us see if that happens first.
KP Singh said:
> If Pakistan makes one peace overture it will be returned many times over by India.
I think so too. India actually wants only one thing from Pakistan (and it’s not even the return of AJK and GB): a complete and permanent cessation of support for jihadi terrorists, in Kashmir and elsewhere. That’s all. If this is sincere and it is shown to last for a while, then there will be a disproportionate response from India in terms of generosity and cooperation. That is fairly certain. India can afford to be generous. It just doesn’t like to be made to feel like a fool. Mumbai 2008 was a terrible betrayal of the peace process and will take a long time to get over. If the situation had been reversed, with (say) 10 RSS guys sailing from Mumbai to Karachi and killing 200 people there, with training provided by past and serving commandos of the Indian army, I can imagine the Pakistani reaction.
Umair said:
> Still always i read Indian bashing the Pak Army and ISI as aiding and abetting terror? Some pattern does not fit here.
The pattern that does not fit, or make any sense at all, is the PA doctrine of “strategic depth” and “death by a thousand cuts”. Gen Kayani keeps ignoring the jihadi threat and insists on being India-centric (his own admission). As long as the Pakistani military establishment believes that cultivating jihadi terrorists is good because they can keep India off-balance, the one crucial thing that India wants from Pakistan will remain unfulfilled.
Hopefully, when the PA top brass learn from the example of Khalid Khwaja and Colonel Imam that even they are not safe from their own creations and start taking serious steps to shut them all down (yes, including the anti-India militants!), then we can hope for peace. Till then, it’s all larifari, as our eloquent friend from Germany says.
> Hopefully you understand we are being vocal against terrorism in many ways, through [...] making sure our soil is not used for plotting attack on others.
If this is really true, then the peace dividend will come about in due course. It takes time to build trust. And the ball is in the PA’s court. They were caught red-handed planning and supporting the Mumbai attack, so the onus is on them to show that they have truly turned over a new leaf. I’m very cynical about the PA, though. Leopards don’t change their spots. The latest news is they are threatening to bankrupt their own country with a nuclear arms race. Good sense is in very short supply.
Regards,
Ganesh Prasad
Ganesh
there is so much distrust that each side state that the other must do it first. Both are holding a gun to each other’s head, both are to pull the trigger at any moment.
” Mumbai 2008 was a terrible betrayal of the peace process and will take a long time to get over. If the situation had been reversed, with (say) 10 RSS guys sailing from Mumbai to Karachi and killing 200 people there, with training provided by past and serving commandos of the Indian army, I can imagine the Pakistani reaction.”
-Do you forget East Pakistan, our half country was cut, 90K POWs and a humiliating war and defeat. Do you think Pakistan ever recovered from it? I am not stating 1971 war justifies Mumbai 08. What we seriously need to do is to MOVE ON!. No point arguing more, there are better things to do, both countries have already come a long way. Give and take, is needed, onus is on both. Both have to play the ball, equally.
Umair said:
> Both are holding a gun to each other’s head, both are to pull the trigger at any moment.
Not true! India has an explicit no-first-strike policy, while Pakistan retains a first-strike option “because it is conventionally weaker”. India did not cross the LoC even during the Kargil provocation, so that’s not at all an even comparison.
> Do you forget East Pakistan, our half country was cut, 90K POWs and a humiliating war and defeat.
Again, not an even comparison. Mumbai was an unprovoked attack. 1971 was a Pakistani civil war with a genocide of civilians before India got involved and put a stop to it. Yes, both countries should move on, but please don’t compare apples to oranges.
Regards,
Ganesh Prasad
Pakistanis have to realize that their country does not equal India. This is the root cause of contemptuous attitude. The only province that suffered the horrors of partition was Punjab (Bengal was on the other side). And Pakistan is dominated by Punjab. On the other side of the border, Punjab is one state amongst the many. Somehow, we Punjabis tend to see the world in Punjab. We are a dominant culture. We are the cultural trend setters in the region. However, coming to India-Pakistan politics, we really are not equals from various angles. Pakistan has tried to achieve parity with India on all fronts. All comparisons are made with India. And Indians do not realize this either. They too compare India with Pakistan on all fronts. One will not find the idiotic demonstration like that in Wagah border with other countries.
Seeing India as an equal and as a rival has made Pakistan spend all its energy and resources to keep up pace with India. It has also made them the aggressor on the military side. If Vietnam decides to take on China as a rival imagine what would happen to them. There is no comparison.
And Western powers which have manipulated Pakistan over the years have equated India with Pakistan to keep their leverage alive. I frequently read of them as the Asian “rivals.”
First of all, we are not rivals. Pakistani Punjabis can surely compare themselves with their Indian counterparts. But the equation stops at that. Pakistanis have to change their attitude towards India. That is the first step. No your size. No your limitations. That will help you country move on. Many Pakistanis live of a false pride that as Muslims they ruled all of India. But Muslims are not a homogeneous group. Different Muslim Sultans ruled over different regions big and small over the entire sub-continent. And there were non-Muslim kings ruling their regions as well. They formed alliances against other alliances to claim territories. India is not a Hindu country. It has not been defined in terms of religion. Pakistan is. This is the first difference. India is like the entire European continent put together as one nation. Pakistan is like a region that will fit inside India. The needs are very different.
Pakistan would compare well with Afghanistan, Iran, Bangladesh etc. Recognize your place in the world and act accordingly. A lot of tension will disappear. You cannot blame India for feeling big. It is big. Learn to accept it.
@Umair
“-Do you forget East Pakistan, our half country was cut, 90K POWs and a humiliating war and defeat. Do you think Pakistan ever recovered from it? I am not stating 1971 war justifies Mumbai 08. What we seriously need to do is to MOVE ON!”
***I recall you said 1971 revenge has been taken in 1998 (by Pakistan going nuclear). So why this talk now?
As far as 1971 scenario is concerned (Baluchistan) India has moved on since Pakistan (and India) gone nuclear and India went into economic growth spurt and bigger ambitions. REad my long post that would allay your fears, PERHAPS. I don;t think Pakistan has moved on.
Regarding Mumbai attack, Pakistan need to do something for India to move on. Do you se anything from Pakistan that reassures India can move on. Calling India enemy #1 is not going to help that.
I agree we seriously need to move on. How to do is the question.
YOU SAID GIVE AND TAKE. Could you please suggest in the context you mentioned. Let me make a statement that India cannot afford to attack Pakistan in any form. Pakistan’s stability is needed for Indian stability. This is Kindergarten stuff which I have no idea why you cannot understand. India knows million B’deshis who spilled into India in 1971. Pakistan has its own experience with Afghanistan. Stable Pakistan and Afghanistan are needed for India and Pakistan.
When you cannot even propose that both India and Pakistan, not just India need to move make moves at borders, there is a serious problem. I would like you to say that both India and Pakistan must withdraw armies from borders, India should withdraw its troops from Kashmir and Pakistan should do the same from AJK and take care of India-centric terrorists with the same love you have for Waziristan and Swat-based terrorists.
Every time India-centric terrorism is talked, you tell us that Pakistan is taking actions against terrorists. This is called evading the issue because you know enough which terrorists operates where.
“No your size. No your limitations.”
Sorry. That should read as “Know your size. Know your limitations”. Sometimes I do not realize I am still Sardar.
PS
@Umair
correction
YOU SAID GIVE AND TAKE. Could you please suggest in the context you mentioned WHAT GIVE AND TAKE INVOLVES?
KPSingh”You cannot blame India for feeling big. It is big. Learn to accept it.”
-That is the problem, India is big but its mentality is petty. Just like Gorilla in zoo is big, big skull, big brain but good 4 nothing. Don’t take me wrong, but just see all other countries make India-Pakistan comparison because both countries are similar in nature. Both countries are a nuclear power and have strong military. All you need is big heart, big resolve to get over border disputes, big solutions to problems.
My friend in this case I would state India is a big country, while Pakistan is a GREAT country!
KPSingh:
“Learn to accept it.”
-For me to respect a big India is not possible. I would grant far more respect towards a pacific Island small nation that respects its neighbours, have good relations with them and does not expect their neighbour to live in their shadow. Its not a big nation that earns respect, its the great nation that earn respect. Sorry but India’s sheer size is nothing, it means nothing to me. What matters to me though is a lot of our Muslim brothers live there. That is about it
Rehmat:
“When you cannot even propose that both India and Pakistan, not just India need to move make moves at borders, there is a serious problem. I would like you to say that both India and Pakistan must withdraw armies from borders, India should withdraw its troops from Kashmir and Pakistan should do the same from AJK and take care of India-centric terrorists with the same love you have for Waziristan and Swat-based terrorists.”
-I clearly stated that first India move its Army from border, thereby allowing Pakistan Army to free its units and redeploy them to Khyber Province. That means both Armies withdraw.
Both countries resolve the Siachin dispute, I think Myra wrote a book ‘Heights of madness’ no two countries in the world fight on such high altitude warfare in snow covered mountains.
Your suggestion that both countries withdraw Army from Kashmir region is also good, our part of bargain would be to ensure no infiltration take place no terrorism take place. India on its part recognize the autonomous status of Kashmir, let Kashmiris take charge. Later make the LoC irrelevant.
Both countries can look to ease travel restriction, Pakistan could benefit from India’s IT and outsourcing industry, etc. Free trade etc. This is what I mean by give and take, gradually take steps to overcome the past, slowly the new generation on both sides will shape a new future one which is free from hatred. Old stereotypes, rigid thinking will be broken and we will break free from the vortex of distrust.
One thing you must make sure, NEVER EVER accept Pakistan to live in the shadow of India. You can expect that from Nepal, Bhutan, Maldives, Sri Lanka, Burma, Bangladesh or Afghanistan but NEVER Pakistan. We will live according to our own aspirations and pursue our goals.
**One thing you must make sure, NEVER EVER ‘expect’ Pakistan to live in the shadow of India.**
@”we seriously need to do is to MOVE ON!”
As Ganesh said, the analogy between Mumbai 2008 & 1971 does not make any sense BUT I do agree that we need to move past previous conflicts & history. India would be ready to move past Mumbai 2008 but in order to do that, we need to see some action by Pakistan on the ground which shows that it is taking steps to make sure that Mumbai 2008 in never repeated. Instead what do we see? We see the mastermind of the Mumbai attacks, Haafiz Saeed attending parties hosted by the PA & openly giving lectures to lawyers in Lahore. What kind of message does that send to the Indians by Pakistan? It sends the message “we’ll continue to support terrorism against you, so go take a hike”. You tell me, under these circumsatances, how do you expect India to MOVE ON from Mumbai 2008?
@”One thing you must make sure, NEVER EVER ‘expect’ Pakistan to live in the shadow of India”
See, this kind of attitude is the biggest problem with Pakistan. It’s about time, Pakistanis get smarter & start thinking with your heads rather than your hearts. You have to realize & accept the fact that it is Pakistan which is in big trouble here, not India AND that normalising relations, will help Pakistan a lot more that it will help India. For starters, your defense budget eats up almost 70% of your country’s precious revenue. By normalising relations, you could cut that defense expenditure in half & free up tens of billions $$$ of precious resources & use it for educational & socio-economic reforms, which in turn will help you curb the rise of radicalism. India, on the other hand is already growing at a rapid pace & normalising relations will probably not affect it’s defense spending much since it’s needs have become a lot more China-centric than Pakistan-centric. This is just one egsample, there are many more. Also, India will not give into your threatening logic that if Pakistan fails, it will affect India & therefore India needs to help Pakistan. India can & is beefing up it’s internal security & can insulate itself to a great extent. It’s about time that you guys leave your ego on the side & start thinking about your future because this macho chest-thumping won’t get you anywhere.
Umairpk: “That is the problem, India is big but its mentality is petty. Just like Gorilla in zoo is big, big skull, big brain but good 4 nothing. Don’t take me wrong, but just see all other countries make India-Pakistan comparison because both countries are similar in nature. Both countries are a nuclear power and have strong military.”
In other words you are indirectly reflecting the typical Pakistani view that you are superior to Indians. And this is the attitude that has made Pakistan what it is. In 1965 war this attitude led to a complete debacle. They seriously believed that one Pak soldier is equal to ten Indian soldiers.
When I say India is big, I meant in terms of size, population, diversity etc. Big size has its disadvantages – it is slow to changes and has a lot of inertia. But big size is also an advantage. Things cannot spread across uniformly and impact the whole nation. Everything becomes localized. That is one reason why India, which has faced more secessionist onslaught and insurgency since the time of its birth, has still moved on. It is like a huge elephant being bitten by leaches at various places. It is difficult to bring it down.
India and Pakistan are not similar in nature. One is a democracy with its military doing what it is ordered to do. In Pakistan, the military runs the show. India is not founded on religion. Pakistan is. The only thing that happened was that the two countries were formed at the same time by drawing arbitrary boundaries. Beyond that the two have moved in different directions.
Having nuclear bombs and a huge military does not make two countries equal. North Korea has the world’s fourth largest military with nukes and missiles. Does that make it equal to China? There is no comparison. And North Korea is not haunted by China’s size and immensity. Both have the needed deterrence. When that is the case, why Pakistanis see their country at par with India? I am not saying this from a superiority stand point. A motor bike can never become a truck. Both go on the roads and can reach good speed. The motor bike can speed fast and make maneuvers the truck cannot. But the truck is always more dangerous to stand on the way.
“All you need is big heart, big resolve to get over border disputes, big solutions to problems.”
We have tried all that. India has never been the aggressor against any of its neighbors. We have always been in the retaliatory mode. Our leaders have always made the first step towards peace initiatives. So we have always been going forward towards making peace. In the case of Pakistan, every effort has been derailed by your military which badly needs an enemy in order to keep its power hold on Pakistanis. Therefore the problem lies with your military. We all have big hearts and big resolve. We are waiting for a change of attitude on your side.
“My friend in this case I would state India is a big country, while Pakistan is a GREAT country!”
The rest of the world does not see it that way. All headline news show nothing positive about your great country. That must trigger some thinking on your part.
Umairpk: “For me to respect a big India is not possible.”
That is the problem. You can respect India for what it is. It being big should not be a problem.
“I would grant far more respect towards a pacific Island small nation that respects its neighbours, have good relations with them and does not expect their neighbour to live in their shadow.”
This is your own mental attitude. You are assuming that you are being looked at as a shadow of India and are unable to accept this illusion. We are not treating you as a shadow. You are looking at a rope and are reacting to it as though you have seen a cobra. The problem does not lie with the rope, but with your vision.
“Its not a big nation that earns respect, its the great nation that earn respect.”
That’s all right. For everyone, his nation is the greatest. One can never tell the other that his nation is not great. Today India and Pakistan are being looked at differently in the world community. India is looked at with a positive attitude and a lot of understanding of its issues. Pakistan is looked at with suspicion and phobia similar to that towards North Korea and Iran. And this view has developed on its own. No propaganda has been involved.
“Sorry but India’s sheer size is nothing, it means nothing to me. What matters to me though is a lot of our Muslim brothers live there. That is about it”
Denial will not change the truth. Your Muslim brothers in India are breathing a sigh of relief today that their parents did not migrate to Pakistan.
“**One thing you must make sure, NEVER EVER ‘expect’ Pakistan to live in the shadow of India.**”
Turn the light on. The snake you are afraid of is simply a rope.
KPS:”When I say India is big, I meant in terms of size, population, diversity etc”
Don’t forget economy. India’s economy is almost 9 times bigger than Pakistan’s & the gap is expected to get wider in the foreeable future. That in my mind, is the biggest disaprity & if Pakistanis aren’t smart enough to see this, they’ll be bankrupt very soon.