Pakistan: Now or Never?
Perspectives on Pakistan
Musharraf’s Kashmir deal, mirage or oasis?
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The foreign secretaries, or top diplomats, of India and Pakistan are expected to meet on the sidelines of a South Asian summit in Thimpu, Bhutan on Feb 6/7 to try to find a way back into talks which have been stalled since the attack on Mumbai in November 2008. Progress is expected to be limited, perhaps paving the way to a meeting of the foreign ministers, or to deciding how future talks should be structured.
Expectations are running low, all the more so after a meeting between the foreign ministers descended into acrimony last July. And leaders in neither country have the political space to take the kind of risks needed for real peace talks right now. Pakistan is struggling with the fall-out of the assassination of Punjab governor Salman Taseer among many other things, while Indian Prime Minister Manmohan Singh has been weakened by a corruption scandal at home.
However, in the interests of establishing a baseline, I asked former president Pervez Musharraf in an interview earlier this week about a roadmap for peace he had agreed with Prime Minister Singh in 2007 before political turmoil forced him out of office. The roadmap brought the two countries to their nearest in years to a peace deal, and during Barack Obama’s presidential election campaign, there was a great deal of hope it could be revived in order to ease tensions between India and Pakistan in turn helping to stabilise Afghanistan. Even after the Mumbai attacks ended chances of an early “Kashmir to Kabul” peace settlement, the idea has lingered on as one of the more promising models. Yet since the agreement was reached in secret, its details have never been officially released.
Diplomats say the agreement hinged on an acceptance by India and Pakistan that there would be no exchange of territory in disputed Kashmir but they would work to make irrelevant the Line of Control which divides the region. There was also supposed to be a “joint mechanism” under which Indians, Pakistanis and Kashmiris would oversee areas of common interest. No one can agree, however, on far advanced the talks were. Some say the deal was ready for signing; others that there was still a long way to go. In particular, the two countries had yet to agree the nature of the “joint mechanism”, and bring on board their own people and domestic constituencies in accepting the agreement. Here is what Musharraf had to say when I asked him about the sceptics’ view of the draft agreement:
“You are probably concentrating only on Kashmir. But there were two other issues, Sir Creek and Siachen. On Sir Creek and Siachen we reached a stage that they can be signed yesterday. There is no doubt in my mind.” The disputed territory in Sir Creek had been surveyed and was just awaiting a leadership decision, he said. ”Then Siachen, we had decided on the relocation of troops beyond certain lines, so everything is done.”
“Yes, Kashmir is not that easy. We had found basic parameters; it was my idea actually … the parameters were first of all demilitarising, which meant really demilitarising on the Line of Control; graduated demilitarisation from the Line of Control and also from the cities in the Indian part of Kashmir; that is what is bothering and troubling the civilians there; so therefore in first case leave the cities and go into the outskirts and then further getting to garrisons. The second element was maximum self-governance, and the third was an overwatch of those areas not given for self-governance, and also (to) see how the self-governance is functioning. This body we had proposed, I had proposed, (was to) be of Kashmiris, Pakistanis and Indians.
”So these were the parameters and then the issue was of the Line of Control, making the Line of Control irrelevant … The Indians thought we should make this as a permanent border. My view was that this has been the cause of wars. How can we have the cause of conflict as the permanent solution? So my idea was that we could look into making the Line of Control irrelevant.
”Now we were in the process of drafting an agreement. Obviously there were differences on the wording and the expressions.” He said that the leadership in both countries needed to show sincerity, flexibility and above all political courage to see the deal through. ”Because when you reach a deal or an agreement, there is always a give and take. Nobody will allow a take-and-take to the other side. So where there is a give-and-take the good path is the one which leader has faced boldly because there will be elements in your country who will agitate, on both sides, because the give has to be on both sides … So now I don’t know whether we could have shown that kind of guts and leadership that we arrived at a conclusion within six months, but we were making fast progress, that I know.”
Asked about how many people had been involved on the Pakistan side beyond Musharraf and his special envoy, Tariq Aziz, he said the foreign minister and foreign secterary were always taken on board, while Pakistan Army chief, General Ashfaq Pervez Kayani – then head of the Inter-Services Intelligence (ISI) – had been there since the beginning. “He was the DG-ISI, so he had to be on board.”
The draft agreement has been virtually disowned by the current government, which says it has no record of it, even in the Foreign Office.
“Do they want peace or not? If they want peace, then let them come up with another idea,” Musharraf said. “Nobody has the right to disown something that was moving forward unless you come out with another idea. If you have another idea by all means go ahead … but I believe that peace is essential.”
The former military ruler who plans to return to Pakistan to fight elections due by 2013 said he believed the deal could still be resurrected. It had been discussed with politicians on both sides of Kashmir, along with the main separatist alliance, the All Parties Hurriyat Conference, and everyone was on board on the parameters, he said. And nobody else had come with another solution.
Those Musharraf/Singh talks are history now. The two countries have reverted to their stated positions – Pakistan that the future of Kashmir must be settled through a plebiscite in line with U.N. resolutions; India that the region is such an integral part of the country that it does not even recognise its status as disputed.
Perhaps that deal was always going to be a mirage, the final details slipping elusively out of grasp. Or perhaps it is the only model that could ever have worked. At least if we know enough about what nearly happened we might be to assess better where talks might go in the future.
(Reuters photo: Musharraf speaks during an interview at his London home/Stefan Wermuth)
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KPSingh:
” A motor bike can never become a truck. Both go on the roads and can reach good speed. The motor bike can speed fast and make maneuvers the truck cannot. But the truck is always more dangerous to stand on the way. ”
-What about Japan which is a small nation and still stronger economically than many big nations. Your concept of small and big is just ridiculous, as it is said average minds discuss people, great minds discuss ideas. Pakistan is not just a piece of land, it is the name of an ideology. Pakistan came into being for an ideology, its struggle, its creation and its quest to beat the odds and still it continues. In that sense Pakistan is different than India. Again, it is irrelevant which country is big in geography and physical features. Resolve the disputes, respect your neighbours. Earn your respect, lead by example, take the ownership, own your mistakes, correct your shortcomings. That is what makes a nation great, India is holding on to dear Kashmir, human rights record there is not good and still claims to be in the race of UN permanent seat?
Pakistan, as a muslim nation has its seperate identity, its people’s aspirations are different. Its role as a leading Muslim nation is unique. As stated, do not expect us to live in India’s shadow. Yes, we certainy welcome the possibility of a good neighbourly relationship based on mutual respect and shared interests with India. Good Luck!
@”As stated, do not expect us to live in India’s shadow.”
Posted by Umairpk
India will always cast a shadow in it’s region, based on it’s relative size & strength just as the US casts a shadow in North America, Brazil in South America & China in the pacific. If you guys don’t want to live in India’s shadow, you should move to another continent because this shadow will only get bigger. I would suggest Antartica. Since there’s no one there, you won’t have to worry about shadows!
Umairpk: “What about Japan which is a small nation and still stronger economically than many big nations.”
Japan is not intimidating and bullying its neighbors. It is smaller than China and is rich and it knows its place in the world. Does Pakistan do that? It is equating itself with India and has been trying to bully it ever since its birth. Japan might be a big economy, but it will drain all its wealth and resources if it starts engaging in confrontation with a bigger country like China or Russia, which has must vaster resources and room to take on any onslaught. That was my point.
“Your concept of small and big is just ridiculous,”
See above. I am not talking in absolute terms. Size does matter when it comes to taking blows. A small body will fall faster to the same number of blows. And in the case of Pakistan, it has punched India many times with no significant effect. India has taken it all and is still walking around. Pakistan has become fatigued and broken. India delivered one punch and Pakistan split in two. India has a huge momentum. It is difficult to stop that momentum or change its course because of its sheer size. Pakistan can change from hot to cold and vice versa very fast because of its size. It can fall victim to sickness very quickly and recovery depends upon how deep the damage is.
“as it is said average minds discuss people, great minds discuss ideas.”
And wise minds try to know the truth and seek solutions. Discussing ideas is not adequate. Ideas need to materialize. Crooked minds try to hide the truth and deny the reality.
“Pakistan is not just a piece of land, it is the name of an ideology.”
Nations founded on ideology have always fought to keep that ideological excuse alive and the nations bleed to death as a result. Soviet Union was also founded on an ideology and we know what happened to it at the end. They spent all their resources on keeping the ideology alive against human interests. And they used force to keep that alive. And that force cost them.
“Pakistan came into being for an ideology, its struggle, its creation and its quest to beat the odds and still it continues.”
Pakistan is a result of short sighted geo-political goals of an erstwhile empire. Just like religion was used to prop up fighters to take on the Soviet Union, religion was used as the weapon to achieve that end in a short time. Pakistan has struggled because it got hung up on ideology and turned paranoiac as a result. There was no need for it. A camel can only carry so much of weight. After that all it takes is one extra straw to break its back. One cannot live on the belief that the camel has always taken on more weight.
“In that sense Pakistan is different than India.”
That is because you have very limited knowledge on India’s post independence history. India has faced every possibility of going broke right from the start – it was terribly poor, its mass was mostly illiterate and poor, it had famines and droughts, it had more secessionist movements than now, it had feudal system, and limited infrastructure. All these were further weighed down by extreme diversity in all aspects. And India has managed to struggle against these odds and become a respected nation in the international arena.
“Again, it is irrelevant which country is big in geography and physical features.”
Unfortunately it is. Isn’t that why your military is seeking strategic depth far removed from India? Bigger place with more resources can survive against the odds. India has done that over eons. It is surrounded by sea on three sides and the world’s tallest mountain chain in the North. And it has helped the culture evolve uniquely.
If India is a barren desert, then its size will not matter. India is not Greenland. It is big in every way.
“Resolve the disputes, respect your neighbours.”
When you point a finger at someone, remember that the other three fingers are pointing at you.
“Earn your respect, lead by example, take the ownership, own your mistakes, correct your shortcomings.”
We have done all that. We still do not get the basic respect as your neighbor.
“That is what makes a nation great”
So why is Pakistan not in that league? Are you indirectly acknowledging that your nation has done none of all those things that you have listed?
“India is holding on to dear Kashmir, human rights record there is not good and still claims to be in the race of UN permanent seat?”
India is holding on to Kashmir, much like Pakistan is holding on to Balochistan. India’s human rights records may not be great, but I see the pot calling the kettle black. What does UN permanent seat have to do with human rights records? If that is the case none of the permanent members deserve to be there – US has engaged in many human rights violations (Abu Gharib, Guantanamo bay, economic sanctions on countries that led to misery of the people). UK has engaged in it. France has. USSR was a champion of denial of rights and freedom. China does not give freedom and rights to its own people. It brutally suppressed Tianenmen square protests and locked down on Uighur Muslims. Why are you singling India out? Aren’t you guys sucking up to the Chinese? For what? Respect, leadership, human rights, owning up mistakes?
“Pakistan, as a muslim nation has its seperate identity, its people’s aspirations are different.”
You just said in one of the earlier replies that India and Pakistan are of same nature. Now you are contradicting your earlier statement. I was the one who pointed out the difference you are quoting here.
“Its role as a leading Muslim nation is unique.”
How does it led so far? By killing a million Bengali Muslims? By killing Balochis? By killing Ahmedias and Shias? By selling nuclear bomb making technology to rogue nations like North Korea, and Libya? What do these have to do with Islam?
“As stated, do not expect us to live in India’s shadow.”
We don’t. But it looks like you have assumed that position yourself. Once again let me tell you that you are screaming about a rope calling it a snake.
“Yes, we certainy welcome the possibility of a good neighbourly relationship based on mutual respect and shared interests with India. Good Luck!”
Well we have not seen that in reality yet. All we saw was a slap on the face when we offered aid during the flood devastation. I have seen your glee in one of the blogs in the past here when Indians were attacked racially in Australia. Goodwill has to come from the heart. I do not see it in your expressions or your country men’s towards us. We all offered our solace and wishes when your country was down due to terrorist bombings and flood devastation. Not one Pakistani here ever came forward to offer any solace when our citizens were attacked in Mumbai by terrorists. It has always been a one sided demand.
@”What about Japan which is a small nation and still stronger economically than many big nations.”
You have drawn parallels between Pakistan & Japan before, how about learning something from the japanese for a change? After WW2, the Japanese realized their mistakes & took a complete U-turn. They abandoned their imperialistic mindset in favor of a progressive economy driven mindset. They forgave the countries with whom they had fought 2 deadly wars & formed strong alliances with them, the strongest of them being with the country which had nuked them. The change of attitude is the reason, why Japan is what it is today. Unfortunately, I don’t see any change in attitude from Pakistan. Instead I see more of the same attitude, belligerent & confrontational.
Mortal:”India will always cast a shadow in it’s region, based on it’s relative size & strength just as the US casts a shadow in North America, Brazil in South America & China in the pacific. If you guys don’t want to live in India’s shadow, you should move to another continent because this shadow will only get bigger. I would suggest Antartica. Since there’s no one there, you won’t have to worry about shadows!”
-If you are implying India will be able to swallow Pakistan, you are mistaken. You are underestimating Pakistan, do not even THINK India can do that. Before you even cross the Atlantic ocean on the way to Antartica, do not forget the starving poor and slums back home, those farmers committing suicides, those poor who save lifetime to wed their daughters. There are far more challenges at home for both nations to take care of instead of reaching for the stars.
KPS
I am not a racist, and take my words back if I stated anything regarding Indians being targeted in Australia. We are all world citizens, equal in rights and deserve liberty and freedom. About India, you are potraying India as the peace dove and Pakistan as the wolf. Obviously your analysis is not objective and is biased.
Umair said:
> Sorry but India’s sheer size is nothing, it means nothing to me. What matters to me though is a lot of our Muslim brothers live there. That is about it
Try and be a humanist, not just an Ummah-nist
.
Regards,
Ganesh Prasad
@777 and others
Your advise to keep India/Pakistan dispute on territory rther than religion associated? Sorry, I cannot!
let us examine some of the comments of your so called countrymen;
Rehmat to Umair, your country manufactures terrorists in the name of Islam!
KP says, Kashmiris demand a separate State because they are majority muslims. It has already been tried in the case of Pakistan and it led to no life in paradise. Kashmir is an extremely important Geo-strategic region for us.
And then some one else said that I have never said a good word about India.
Just read these statements carefully and I did and draw your own conclusions!
I have sympathised with the victims, Sikhs massacred in their own holy temple by the Indian military. I sympathise with Kashmiris because they are being systematically persecuted by Indian military, because they are muslims.
Should I sympathise with the Indian Govt. for there oppressions at the same time? Certainly not! Should I foalso forget that kashmiris are muslims? certainly not.
Do I sympathise with Pakistan Govt or its military for suppressing Pashtoons at the behest of Americans, and previously Baluchis and Bengalis? Certainly not! I sympathise with the victims and support moraly with resustance. Pakistan military is simply shooting in their own feet and would meet the defeat which they deserve.
Talk is easy and cheap, writing is even cheaper. You guys are free to read as much crap as possible, but history takes its own course. Just imagine for a second the anglo saxons and them the United States have alwasy followed a short term strategy (Henry Kissinger was the great architect of the US foreign policy, which is todate being followed by his students in the State dept. just to manage the situation, not to think long term and solve the issue. Indian Govt. has been following the same strategy of the colonialists time, divide and rule, i.e., manage the situation and not solve it.
Now let us consider the facts, there are more than two billion muslims in this world scattered across in I guess 50 odd countries. Examine the staement of Rehmat, a pseudo muslim who has almost assimilated in the Indian hindu society, and then the two sikhs, the dead wood I call it, having lost the dignity and the respect from the Indian Govt. for their faith and culture, seeking assylum around the world and then you have a former hindu who declares himself an atheist, fed up with the mumbo jumbo of the religion and in my opinion has no binding commitment to ethics, morals or humanity and simply follows what he is told by the country where he lives in. This is noz zo say that these people are not good people or sincere in their comments, but what is the basis for their rhetoric? I am not ashamed to be a muslim and I have a lot of respect for the humans whom I consider the creation of God almighty. My ethics and morals and solidarity with those who are less fortunate or become victims of the Govt. is from my faith and not because uncle sam or samson of this world.
Are two billion people going to accept the messing about with their faith, their freedom and giving them labels of terrorism, Islamic radicals and insurgents and jihadis within their own country. I doubt it, the tide is bound to turn sooner than later and any one coming in their way would be washed away. India would just be a big tree, dry and hollow because of its sixty years sick roots and would float away into the Sea with a matter of a very short time.
From Tunisia to Egypt and yemen to Afghanistan, the people are rising one by one, not jehadis or clergy or mullahs, but ordinary folks, who are simple believers, try to pray five times aday to the God almighty and just want freedom and dignity and food for their families!
Is it too much for God almighty to listen to their prayers? I shall watch with eagerness how India is going to withstand the tide when it reaches its shores? Perhaps Mr Obama and Hillary Clinton would declare their solidarity with the kashmiri muslims and tell the last Indian Sikh leader to listen to the grievences of the Kashmiris, whose claim is long overdue?
Rex Minor
PS I say last sikh leader, since Rehmat once mentioned that Sikhs are not good leaders or something along these lines!
@”If you are implying India will be able to swallow Pakistan, you are mistaken. You are underestimating Pakistan” Posted by Umairpk
I have stated many times that any country would have to be brain-dead, if it intends to take over Pakistan & it’s myraid of problems, so what gave you the idea of that implication from me? See the analogies which I’ve given above, that of the US, Brazil & China. The last time I checked, the US had not swallowed Mexico or Canada & Brazil had not yet invaded Argetina or Chile. In fact, how many countries do you know of, that have been swallowed by India? heck, India did not even swallow East Pakistan when Indian troops occupied that land, so what makes you think that it is interested in swallowing Pakistan or any other country? We have tried to explain this to you many times but it seems that this ridiculous paranoia (of being swallowed by India) has become an addiction for you Pakistanis, which you don’t want to get rid of.
@”do not forget the starving poor and slums back home, those farmers committing suicides, those poor who save lifetime to wed their daughters.”
C’mon, is this juvenile rhetoric necessary? Yes there are slums & poor farmers in India but their numbers are declining as we speak but take a guess where their numbers are rapidly rising? In fact, the biggest slum in Asia is no longer in Mumbai but in Karachi.
@Rex minor/pakistan
May I ask, what kind of dignity does a twisted third-rated mullah like you have, for living like a rat in a country whose forces currently occupy the land of your favorite pashtuns & whose leaders regularly taunt you to either assimilate or get lost? If you indeed have any dignity, you would leave the confines of western europe & crawl back into the cave that you came from. And BTW, I did not seek assylum anywhere but I think you should, the mental assylum that is!
Pakistan: “I sympathise with Kashmiris because they are being systematically persecuted by Indian military, because they are muslims.”
Absolutely wrong. There is no religious mission here for the military to exterminate Muslims. Indian security forces are also fighting insurgency in North Eastern India for decades against Bodos, Nagas, Mizos and Assamese. These are not Muslims. These are militant groups hiding in the dense jungles in North Eastern India and Burma and have threatened the local people from voicing their opinions against them. And Indian military cannot tell the difference between the locals and the militants. So the counter-insurgency methods are utterly brutal. And there too the army protection law is effective. This means the military is not accountable for anyone being shot or anyone who disappears. This sounds just like Kashmir.
In essence, brutality is to be condemned. But facts should not be twisted to give it a religious tone. Kashmir prior to 1988 was quite peaceful. Indian military was thin there and there were no insurgency based brutality. What changed? People have been Muslims then as they are now. After 1989, Pakistan launched a proxy war with a calculated plan to draw the Indian military in. And by sustaining insurgency for a decade, just like in Afghanistan against the Soviets, they slowly turned the frustration of the locals against the military. And the insurgents carefully threatened and drove the Hindus and Sikhs from Kashmir (“Agar Kashmir mein rehna hai, to allah ho akbar kehna hai” was the slogan). It has taken a generation to turn the public mood against the Indian military. As the mood changed, Pakistanis launched the campaign for UN plebiscite, human rights violation etc to put India on the defensive. Stone pelting has been organized to make the whole thing like a home grown revolution. There are reports of commands coming from the other side of the Line of control about where to launch the riots and stone pelting. The goal is to frustrate the security forces and push them to the breaking point. When they lose their minds and launch counter attacks, publicize it, run the campaign and add more salt to the wound. And it is Kashmiris who have started saying that they are Muslims and therefore need to go it alone. When pushed to the corner, people tend to seek guidance from religious leaders.
Kindly do not propagate distorted stories without any regard for facts.
Pakistan: “Talk is easy and cheap, writing is even cheaper. You guys are free to read as much crap as possible, but history takes its own course.”
If that is the case why are you writing cheap stuff? How did you decide we are reading crap? Is it because what we read and understand does not align with your blind views?
Your sympathy is nothing but crocodile tears. You are a Pakistani at heart and you are as venomous as many other blinded Pakistanis are. Your sitting in Germany makes no difference. All your expressions speak for themselves. If you really are living in Germany, you should have been exposed to modern methods of research, data analysis and providing credible information. Your expressions here do not reflect any influence of an advanced Western nation built on democratic ideals and modernity in values.
Pakistan: “I say last sikh leader, since Rehmat once mentioned that Sikhs are not good leaders or something along these lines!”
Rehmat, be careful with these guys. Now you are being quoted for things you may not have said. If you deal with them, they will make you forget your own name by repeatedly telling that you are not Rehmat.
Pakistan: “Are two billion people going to accept the messing about with their faith, their freedom and giving them labels of terrorism, Islamic radicals and insurgents and jihadis within their own country.”
Why is this attitude of being against the rest of the world? Are you guys breathing a different air? Two billion Muslims can learn to live with others instead of feeling threatened by others. Almost 99% of them do already. It is the 1% which comprises of people like you who seem to have the problem.
“I doubt it, the tide is bound to turn sooner than later and any one coming in their way would be washed away.”
In other words you are indirectly saying that non-Muslims are your enemies and you are going to rise an Armageddon to fight them. Thanks for the advance notice Mr. Bin Laden!
“India would just be a big tree, dry and hollow because of its sixty years sick roots and would float away into the Sea with a matter of a very short time.”
Your wish clearly shows that you are yet another mad Pakistani. Unfortunately you are going to be very disappointed. When you run back home to your paradise after being kicked out of Germany for abusing the privileges there, remember what I said.
Umairpk: “About India, you are potraying India as the peace dove and Pakistan as the wolf. Obviously your analysis is not objective and is biased.”
In the context of India-Pakistan relations, I would say we have been quite fair and that fairness has not been reciprocated from your side. We have tried to mind our own business and your military is unable to cope with it and has instigated conflicts to keep the divide alive.
Other than that we are a normal country with our own issues, limitations and dreams.
KPS to Rex:
“You are a Pakistani at heart and you are as venomous as many other blinded Pakistanis are.”
-Come on! is this the level of debate, now Pakistanis have become venomous snakes, so much hatred displayed by indians. This discussions is just becoming useless. Good bye, have fun and have a nice weekend everyone. Just come back after spending time with your loved ones, life is too short to hate.
Rex,
U r correct man, this is a mob we are up against, I don’t think a civilized debate is possible here?
Umairpk: “is this the level of debate, now Pakistanis have become venomous snakes, so much hatred displayed by indians.”
In other words, if we do not say anything that is pleasing to your ears (India is evil, Americans are evil, the world is out to get Muslims etc) it is simply hatred. But if you say anything derogatory towards others, it is all right. You guys are seeing things black and white. There is nothing in between.
We see a lot of misperceptions about India, non-Muslims etc that seem to be deeply entrenched in your head. You are unwilling to pay any respect to our views and opinions. Even if we provide valid references to back up our views, you guys deny them, much like your government denies the evidence provided by Indians as inadequate. On top of that you guys keep repeating the same set of beliefs and assumption which are not real. That is the reason why there are so many of us coming up with the same replies to your close minded expressions and apprehensions.
“life is too short to hate.”
Everything is not just love and hate. There are other things in between – dislike, disagreement etc. You guys take everything as either love or hate.
“Rex,
U r correct man, this is a mob we are up against, I don’t think a civilized debate is possible here?”
First thing, you are a lot smarter than that cave dweller. Do not get emotional and club yourself with this primitive minded religious fanatic. A civilized debate is not made up of statements that agree with your views all the time, making everyone else blameworthy. You need to admit your shortcomings with grace and try to see other’s perspectives and broaden your outlook.
My realization is this – one cannot argue with women and one cannot argue with Pakistanis. Both slip into emotional self pity and blank out completely. All one would hear is continuous repeat of old things until one gives up.
@KP
You appear to be a good man. You are not at fault, but after what Indian Govt. has done with your folks, it is beyond my imagination how you read and interpret events in the world. I simply quoted your position on Kashmiri muslims. You talk about Geo politics without realising that Kashmiris are people, not a territory and India is not a western occupying power but the next door neighbour, who sent in its military and occupied the country in 1948 and not in 1988!
This world is not that small as you imagine, there are other people beyond north americans or Asians! I have mentioned on several occasions that I am not a Pakistani or even an Afghan. Nor have I taken a refuge or asylum in any country. We all have different biographies and varying views of the world. You guys should, however, realised that when you declare your association with one or other people, country or religion, we the bloggers consider you as ambassadors of the people, land or faith and expect at least a civil language. Is this too much to ask?
Rehmat named me a coolie when I spoke about Indian cruelty towards Sikhs and you have given me several names, the last one being mad Pakistani.
I have no appetitite for crap from NYtimes, Washington Post, Guardian UK, and several Indian and Pakistani newspapers. You read the same crap written by the news papers columnists and then quote them as authentic scriptures! You reckon I am living in an island and do not have access to the media.
We are by nature biased for one or other reason. I admit not to have any control over my heart, and not even tears. I do not consider the nationality, political affiliation or faith of a victim, before I express my feelings.
My advice to Pakistanis would be to break- off the diplomatic relations with India, sealed the entire border and concentrate on nation building and reformation of institutions including the military.
My advice to Indians would be similar, and in addition to narrow the gap between the rich and poor, eliminate discrimination against minorities and allow freedom for Kashmiris.
Rex Minor
Pakistan: “but after what Indian Govt. has done with your folks, it is beyond my imagination how you read and interpret events in the world.”
Government of India is not an unchanging, static system. It is run by people who periodically change. Every five years people get replaced through elections. Policies and plans are made by the elected people every time according to the existing circumstances. The India in the 1980s was vastly different from the India today. Politicians who ruled during that time will find it very hard to make it to seats of power today. People have changed and their mindsets have changed. Expectations have changed. Any politicians who tries to whip up religious sentiments or ideological ones will not make it far. People are electing leaders who address prices, help to farmers and poor, increase jobs, provide more opportunities for economic growth etc. In this condition, if I were to sit and aim at the government of India for revenge for what was done in the 1980s, I will be fooling myself. It is like throwing stones at a train that has just arrived at the platform because ten years ago another train ran over my uncle. I do have feelings for my uncle. But the train, the passengers in it, the driver etc are different.
If I were to use your logic, Hindus will be justified in seeking revenge for many atrocities committed against them by former Muslim Sultans and invading emperors. In fact some small sections of Hindu fanatics are trying hard to capitalize on such sentiments and are not finding much support for them.
We Sikhs have been persecuted even more terribly by Muslim emperors from the Mughal dynasty. Does this mean that we keep trying to settle scores with Muslims of today? Many who are Muslims today are descendants of Hindus when those Muslim rulers lived.
Justice system has to improve in India and in many other countries. Those who commit crimes against specific communities need to be brought to justice. But the country has a long way to go in achieving that goal. Only steady progress will get us there. It may not happen in my life time. But hopefully progress will get India to the stage where my grandchildren will get justice when they seek them.
“I simply quoted your position on Kashmiri muslims. You talk about Geo politics without realising that Kashmiris are people, not a territory and India is not a western occupying power but the next door neighbour, who sent in its military and occupied the country in 1948 and not in 1988!”
You are ignoring the circumstances which led to Indian paratroopers landing in Kashmir. This means either you have been taught Pakistan’s version of history or you simply have chosen to ignore the truth. India is not an invader. India was for all resolution in 1948. It was the Indian Prime Minister who went to the UN and no one from Pakistan did. The UN resolution demanded complete withdrawal of all militants and military personnel from Pakistan first. Then India was required to maintain a minimal level of troops to help maintain law and order, followed by a plebiscite across the whole of Kashmir. Pakistani leaders knew at that time that a plebiscite would turn against their wishes because of the hostile feelings Kashmiris had towards the invading tribes from Pakistan. So Pakistan refused to honor UN resolutions and withdraw its military from what became “Azad” Kashmir. And India waited for the first condition to be met. And Sheikh Abdullah, the leader of the Kashmiris, made a pact with India in which Kashmir would be protected by India with currency and foreign policy handled by India. Kashmir had its own independent constitution. In 1956, Kashmiri parliament voted towards acceding to India. In 1965, Ayub Khan sent in the tribals again and they were captured by Kashmiris themselves and handed over to Indian security forces. Ayub launched Operation Gibraltor and India launched its counter offensive. Another two weeks of war would have led to Pakistani army’s surrender and the loss of Lahore. Pakistan did not have enough resources and money to run the war for too long.
From 1965 till 1989, Kashmiris were fine in the Indian union. So what changed? Afghan war ended with Soviet withdrawal. Pakistan had the nukes. It also had a radicalized and war hardened tribals who were trained, organized and launched into Kashmir. This was Operation Gibraltor II. This time it worked, because India had never encountered such highly trained and commando style fighters. India had to bring in its military in order to counter the insurgency. And much like the war against the Soviets, the proxy war was simply sustained at a level which simply frustrated the Indian military. And that frustration, in due course turned against the locals. The military could not tell who was a local and who was a militant. And moderate Kashmiris were eliminated by ISI controlled militants.
When the above happened, it was very clear that it was a war launched to gain geo-strategically. In addition Pakistan built up the Taliban and had dug trenches there as its strategic depth. Pakistan was preparing for a major war with India with an aim to inflict a thousand cuts.
By drawing Indian military in such a large number, frustrating them, raising campaign, distorting facts and keeping up the pressure Pakistan did succeed in alienating Kashmiris from India. This has taken about two decades. Based on these events, everything has become a geo-strategic game. And we will be foolish to loosen our grip. Kashmiri people are fine with us. But their frustration has built up due to huge military presence. This is unfortunate and brutal. But we will not be backing down. We just do not know how things are going to go in Pakistan. We can make changes only based on how things change in the neighborhood.
Hope I have explained our perspective to you. If you still come back with your old arguments, by completely ignoring what I have stated, then there would be no point in any of us engaging in any serious discussion with you.
The reason why I term you a staunch Pakistani at heart is because you act like one in every way. Even though you say you are neither Pakistani nor Indian, but German, it does not reflect in your biased views. Neutral people try to understand all sides of the equation. And they rely on facts. If you call NY times, Washington Post etc are useless, what exactly is your authentic source you rely on? Simple gut feelings do not carry much weight. You cannot expect us to follow your edicts. I do not know what you do in Germany. But if are working there or studying there, they are not going to accept things coming from gut feelings. You will need to rely on authentic sources that are acceptable to everyone. Denying them will mean you do not belong to the world community.
Pakistan: “My advice to Pakistanis would be to break- off the diplomatic relations with India, sealed the entire border and concentrate on nation building and reformation of institutions including the military.
My advice to Indians would be similar, and in addition to narrow the gap between the rich and poor, eliminate discrimination against minorities and allow freedom for Kashmiris.”
Do you think anyone cares what your advice is? You are talking about a country with 1.2 billion people which is emerging as a world economic power. The other one has some 180 million people run by various interest groups. They have no time for any one’s advice. All the ties have been cut in the hearts of the people in both nations since Mumbai attacks. What you call as the Indian mob here has descended in a reaction to those attacks where Pakistan simply decided not to co-operate so that India would be frustrated. Our most wanted criminals like Dawood Ibrahim are state guests in Pakistan under military protection. That is the reason why there are so many of us venting our frustration out. If you go through blogs here prior to Mumbai attacks, you will not find most of us there. That is one reason why people like me want Pakistan to splinter up and become smaller states. That way they will be busy with each other and leave us alone.
KPSingh:”That is one reason why people like me want Pakistan to splinter up and become smaller states.”
-Just to remind you once again, for people like you Pakistan had made some kick as* nuclear bombs and if you ever try to splinter Pakistan then see what will happen. I would rather suggest you dont mess with Pakistan and mind your f*cking business.
KPSingh:”Another two weeks of war would have led to Pakistani army’s surrender and the loss of Lahore. Pakistan did not have enough resources and money to run the war for too long.”
-That is the same, Pakistan still does not have the resources to sustain a war more than 2 weeks. That is why we made nuclear bombs to finish the war in hours rather than in weeks. Infact it just takes a few minutes for a nuclear tipped missile to reach India when launched by Pakistan. Lets see who has the balls to attack Lahore now!
KPS
In the words of Mohammad Ali Jinnah “THERE IS NO POWER ON EARTH WHICH CAN UNDO PAKISTAN”.
here is some more medicine to add to your frustration, but dont break your computer screen.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LaxtVnvj- 1U&feature=fvw
Pakistan capable of striking back within minutes if attacked
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=udustPdBH 1U&feature=related
KPSingh”You are talking about a country with 1.2 billion people which is emerging as a world economic power. The other one has some 180 million people run by various interest groups. They have no time for any one’s advice.”
-Thank God you are a sick, rest of India is divided in shudar, Brahman, hindus and pundits, the low castes are untouchables.
Pakistan is way more united with 98% population in Muslims, sure we have differences among different sects, but no worse than India. You have some serious Pakistan hating problem. Let me also remind you much love for India was also lost in Pakistan in 1971.
it is far to assume India as an emerging economic power, at best it would take decades for India to even catch up with next door China. Similarly with serious corruption, circus monkey politicians and an incompetent bureaucracy it will be huge challenge for India to p[rove itself on world stage. Best of luck, go your way and don’t f*ck around with Pakistan otherwise it would take minutes to send you back to stone age.
*Thank God you are a Sikh, but you are sick at the same time. not much of a typo error, bit of both.
KPSingh: to Rex”Your wish clearly shows that you are yet another mad Pakistani. Unfortunately you are going to be very disappointed. When you run back home to your paradise after being kicked out of Germany for abusing the privileges there, remember what I said.”
-Look who is talking, KP are u still in North America? make sure when you return back and when passing thru airport security scanner you take off your ‘Kirpan’. I heard Canadians are really getting made with Sikhs hanging around with knives and waving them in public threatnening others. Don’t abuse your previlges in North America, they are already kicking people out of doing so.
@Rex
“Examine the staement of Rehmat, a pseudo muslim who has almost assimilated in the Indian hindu society, and then the two sikhs, the dead wood I call it, having lost the dignity and the respect from the Indian Govt. for their faith and culture, seeking assylum around the world and then you have a former hindu who declares himself an atheist, fed up with the mumbo jumbo of the religion and in my opinion has no binding commitment to ethics, morals or humanity and simply follows what he is told by the country where he lives in.”
—Now the real Rex is showing up.
SHAME ON YOU!!! This tells who you are not who we are.
People like you want over billion Muslims to fit in one block. Muslims are not some clones of your mind who is fall outside that block are pseud-Muslims.
You have no idea about what you are talking about. What do you know about agnostics and atheists if you cannot tolerate a Muslim like me who tell what a Hindu’s view of GOD is and tell that I am not in the “realm of Islam”.
All this in background of your confession that you do not know a SHI# about Sikhs and Hindus.
But keep it coming. I think fun is just beginning.
@Umair
“Rex, U r correct man, this is a mob we are up against, I don’t think a civilized debate is possible here?”
***Umair, this is not called mob. It is just the higher proportion of Indians!!!
sorry.
Seriously, I appreciate your input on the blog. I do not know what Reuters would do if you are not around.
Now, do you want to walk the talk and have serious debate. It is ON. If pakistanis are not showing up on Reuters it is not “Mob’s” fault and you should be ready to face the “mob”.
You have started the debate on India as existential threat to Pakistan, your favourite topic, and the ball is sitting dead in your court. Let us go back and forth with comments and move forward, not in circles and use evasive methods in discussing existential threat. The idea should be to learn. If that is not the case, then thanks for not responded yet.
Here are few quick observations. When 2 parties fight, counselors ask them to see positives in each other rather than faults. Call my bias, Indians do say something good about Pakistan SOMETIMES but I am yet to see you say a single good thing about India. You need to begin doing that exercise.
India is great or Pakistan? everyone says the same thing about their country. But Iqbal says it is India. (saare Jahan se ….
)
Have you wondered ( Rex: You too. Although my hopes from you are ZERO) why Sikhs and Muslims who have suffered, majority of them would still want to be with India. They, by Rex, are called “PseudoMuslims” or Sikhs as “dead woods” by this online charater.
“Sorry but India’s sheer size is nothing, it means nothing to me. What matters to me though is a lot of our Muslim brothers live there. That is about it”
***Intolerance is dripping and I know there is no substance in the statement. Your anecodotal friendships with some Indian Muslims won’t cut it. You do not give a damn to your “brothers’ who for good reasons do not buy Pakistan’s idea but wish them best. you have no words for your brothers on OIC when Rex spits statements like a paper shredder against why India should not be part of OIC. YOu do not have a strong voice against terrorists which in “collateral damage” (Reference Rex’s statement) killed 40 of your brothers. THis is unending. In the circles where I work, all think the way I think.
Umairpk: “Just to remind you once again, for people like you Pakistan had made some kick as* nuclear bombs and if you ever try to splinter Pakistan then see what will happen. I would rather suggest you dont mess with Pakistan and mind your f*cking business.”
We have no interest or intention of splitting anyone up. You guys are doing that job yourselves. All this Islamic unity is a mirage. It never existed and it never will. You need an enemy to keep Muslims united. When the enemy does not show a response because he really is not the enemy, patience runs out and other differences between Muslims take over. East Pakistan seceded for that very reason. Your pride might blind you from admitting the reality. But the reality is that your country is on the very edge. I just read in Dawn today that thousands are marching in support of blasphemy law. This means progressive minded people will need to get out of Pakistan or they will be hunted down. And it is the sign of decline. You can keep your nukes. You won’t be needing them to contain your brethren who will want to go their own ways. This is not a wish. Pakistan as never founded for Muslims. It was created as a garrison for the British imperialists to take on expanding Russians. Both empires have disappeared into the dust. Pakistan is no longer of any use to them. The US used Pakistan for the same purpose and they too do not need them if they weaken Al Qaeda. After that, your country will have to face its own internal enemies. I can only feel sorry for you.
@Rehmat
“But keep it coming. I think fun is just beginning”
Yeah I always say Rex has his funny side. Keep it coming Rexy my boy. We all need a little laughter every now and then.
@Rexy
So Rexy, Rehmat according to you is a pseudo muslim because he tries to understand other person’s views and a true muslim only knows and imposes Islam onto everyone. Islam is the best and f**k the rest is your world’s (not entire muslim world) slogan.
But remember an eye for an eye makes the whole world blind.
Umairpk: “That is the same, Pakistan still does not have the resources to sustain a war more than 2 weeks. That is why we made nuclear bombs to finish the war in hours rather than in weeks. Infact it just takes a few minutes for a nuclear tipped missile to reach India when launched by Pakistan. Lets see who has the balls to attack Lahore now!”
Like you military, you are too focused on India. Look behind you instead. You won’t be needing nukes to handle your internal enemies who are going to gobble up your nation alive. India has no interest in Pakistan or its affairs. we are only being cautious about any spill over when Pakistan begins to spin out of control. You can lick your nukes to your heart’s content. It won’t make any difference to us.
“In the words of Mohammad Ali Jinnah “THERE IS NO POWER ON EARTH WHICH CAN UNDO PAKISTAN”.
Hee, Hee.. Jinnah died too early before East pakistan seceded. And today he would have been blown up for being a Shia or for being a pork eating, chain smoking and alcohol drinking infidel.
“Thank God you are a sick, rest of India is divided in shudar, Brahman, hindus and pundits, the low castes are untouchables.”
Okay, take a break. Take some deep breaths. All right, Brahman are Hindus. So are pundits. So are low castes. India is not struggling from any religious crisis. There are clowns here and there who want some attention. No one cares for them. In your desperation to get at India, you are exposing your gross ignorance. You are sounding like Rex Minor suddenly. See what emotions can do to you!
“Pakistan is way more united with 98% population in Muslims, sure we have differences among different sects, but no worse than India.”
Pakistan may be 98% Muslim. But I won’t be so sure about unity amongst them. Your unity becomes alive only if the word India appears anywhere. You need India as an enemy to keep your 98% Muslims united. That is a pity. if you take India out of the picture, then it is all brotherly fight on a daily basis. May be suicide bombers are the reflection of that unity. I don’t want that kind of unity. You can keep it.
“You have some serious Pakistan hating problem.”
Well, I can same the same about you – you guys hate India passionately. Hence our return of your courtesy. In reality I do not hate anyone. Hatred is a strong word. I criticize some people. And it can be harsh. But that does not equate to hatred. Hating other humans is inhuman. But if you assume that I do, I cannot stop you.
“Let me also remind you much love for India was also lost in Pakistan in 1971.”
And before that it was all full of love? Who are you kidding with? Pakistan was created by hatred and violence. Pakistan went to war with India right after independence. And it has never stopped the war of hearts right from the start. We do not hate you. But we do not love you either. We are ever cautious about your country. That’s all. And we don’t care if your countrymen love us or not. So long as you mind your business and know you place in the world, that would be adequate.
“it is far to assume India as an emerging economic power, at best it would take decades for India to even catch up with next door China. Similarly with serious corruption, circus monkey politicians and an incompetent bureaucracy it will be huge challenge for India to p[rove itself on world stage.”
We are not in any competition with China. Let them do what they like. As far as we are concerned, we know our limitations and we are happy with our progress. But China will not mess with us anymore. Therefore we are not worried so much about them. We only have to be cautious about their proxy elements that they have been trying to surround us with. But we can handle that. And the topic of China has no relevance here. Your China logic shows the desperation to counter my points. You brought in poverty, caste, China etc to vent your feelings. And I’d like to remind you that you forgot to bring in Kashmir, RAW, Balochistan, Indian embassies in Afghanistan, Sindh water treaty etc.. I know this routine list every time a Pakistani runs out of ideas to counter valid points from Indians.
“Best of luck, go your way and don’t f*ck around with Pakistan otherwise it would take minutes to send you back to stone age.”
We don’t want to f*ck around with a Pakistan bitten by rabies of Islamic radicalism. You can lick your own rear end and die from that. And just realize that you are already near stone age.
Umairpk: “Look who is talking, KP are u still in North America? make sure when you return back and when passing thru airport security scanner you take off your ‘Kirpan’. I heard Canadians are really getting made with Sikhs hanging around with knives and waving them in public threatnening others. Don’t abuse your previlges in North America, they are already kicking people out of doing so.”
Looks like you have run out of ideas and are desperate to find some thing or the other to hurl at your opponents. Like you said, take the weekend off and spend time with your loved ones. Or watch your brothers in Lahore who are marching to support blasphemy law. I have been through airport security here a few times and no one harassed me. And if you hear something on your streets about Canadians getting ready to kick the Sikhs, tell yourself that it is a just like the other rumors floating around in Pakistan everyday about existential threats, Americans are after your nukes etc.. Canada is a much more open society and people can seek justice for unfair treatment and get their justice. In Pakistan minorities get sentenced to death and no one can do much about that. Those who voice their concerns for such minorities get 27 bullets pumped into them. May be you should worry about Sherry Rehman than about me.
Umair, I won’t respond to your recent rhetoric but I have to say, I’m disappointed that you have flip-flopped again my friend. Was it you, who said this just a few days ago?: “hopefully we keep the communication open. But i will not engage in tit for tat responses. Only positive comments and engage in constructive discussion. I will ignore unneccessary foolish comments.”
@”What matters to me though is a lot of our Muslim brothers live there. That is about it”
Ever thought about the fate of your 150 million muslim brothers, if you ever happen to use the nukes which you are so proud of & constantly threaten us with?
@”at best it would take decades for India to even catch up with next door China.” Posted by Umairpk
Don’t be so sure about that. Many credible economists & analysts believe that India could surpass China sooner than most believe. Although India has many chalanges, it does have 3 very important fundamentals, in it’s favor.
1) Internal consumption VS Exports: While China’s economy is largely dependant on the global economy (it exports app.75% of what it produces), India’s is mostly dependant on internal consumption (exports app.30% of production). This makes China a lot more vulnerable to global recessions & downturns than India & it was proven in the recent global downturn, when China had to pump in $500 bn+ in order to stabalize it’s economy, India was able to do the same with just $10 bn.
2) Demographics: The 1 child policy instituted by China, will hurt it tremendously in the long run as it’s population ages. It is estimated that by 2025, only 40% of China’s population will be productive (between ages 15 & 65), while India will have a productive population of app. 70%.
3) Democracy VS Communism: In the long run, a free democtaric set up will help India a lot as it produces a lot more enetrprenuers & free thinkers than China. This will help speed up it’s growth prospects, as China eventually slows down due to it’s controlled & closed communist model.
Umair,
I certainly hope for your sake that Pakistani policymakers don’t all think like you do. You are quick to respond with awe-inspiring videos of military capability stung by someone’s throwaway statement, but the State Bank of Pakistan has *failed to* raise interest rates in response to rising inflation. In other words, you have an enemy attacking you on the economic “border” and no action has been taken.
Do you know that the Reserve Bank of Australia has definite targets for inflation? They do not allow inflation to go above the 2-3% band. Once inflation rises, interest rates are flicked up immediately. And although this is not the only reason, Australia has enjoyed 20 years of continuous growth without even a tiny recession. It is alone in the Western world in this performance.
Hyperinflation is the real existential threat to Pakistan. It will ravage your economy much more than a conventional war with India, and I’m not exaggerating. Can you post any videos on how Pakistan is gearing up to handle that threat?
Regards,
Ganesh Prasad
Rehmat said:
> They, by Rex, are called “PseudoMuslims” or Sikhs as “dead woods” by this online charater.
And don’t forget that agnostics in his view have no binding commitment to ethics, morals or humanity!
The man is a provable bigot, and a frustrated one at that. But he’s entertaining, and if for no other reason, Reuters should refrain from kicking him off this blog.
Regards,
Ganesh Prasad
@”Hyperinflation is the real existential threat to Pakistan. It will ravage your economy much more than a conventional war with India, and I’m not exaggerating. Can you post any videos on how Pakistan is gearing up to handle that threat?” Posted by prasadgc
Ganesh, Pakistani folks don’t care about unimportant & boring things like economy, inflation & interest rates. They are preoccupied with far more important things like war, nukes & external existential threats. I’ve been following the bone-headed moves/non-moves made by people at the helm of Pakistan’s economic affairs for quite some time & it seems as though they are least interested (in economic matters) as well. If that’s the case, what can one expect from ordinary Pakistanis. It’s clear that pathetically low tax collection rates & extremely high defense spending, will ultimately do Pakistan in but who cares!
Pakistan is living off American aid, Saudi dole and World bank aid. Most of it is swindled off by its military and the elites who have one leg always planted in London. The rest have nothing. In this scenario, who cares about hyper inflation or interest rates? Guns per capita is very high in Pakistan. Drugs from Afghanistan make their way through Pakistan to the outside world. Their main concern is about having enough money to keep the Jihadis fed and kept under control. The rest can be handled by blackmail.
@Ganesh
“Hyperinflation is the real existential threat to Pakistan. It will ravage your economy much more than a conventional war with India, and I’m not exaggerating.”
Ohh come on, when Pakis can live by eating grass for a 1000 years then who needs economy. All they need is Islam and Islamic bombs to protect (blackmail rich non-muslim countries) their Islam.
@KP
I do not expect from sikhs to start a crusade against the Indian Govt. or the left over of the Mogul kings for the atrocities committed against your folk, but I do expect some sort of solidarity from you for kashmiri muslims who are a minority. Instead you are justifying the use of Indian military for reasons such as geopolitics. On top of that you along with Rehmat and co have taken a firm anti-Pakistan stance which is counter productive to say the least.
Now you are calling me a German. I do read all the papers you refer to and more in other languages, but am very careful with the info put out.
A good day sir, more later.
Rex Minor
@GPrasad
Refrain from foul language!You did not read carefully Castello’s speach? Gordon Brown used this language against a citizen and lost his position as a Prime Minister. This word is forbidden under the Austarlian law too.
Rex Minor
@Rehmat
What non-sense you are putting out!
I have simply stated what Kp and the agnostic have put out. I have observed nothing muslim about you, therefore in my eyes you are a Pseudo? You must be the first muslim who considers Hindus as ‘Believers’. Why do’nt you give the opportunity to the Hindus to claim this? You want India to be allowed to join OIC? Your arguments are weak and carry no substance. Do you wish to send Salman Rushdie in the conference?
There are two genuine, honest and sincere Pakistanis on this blog, namely Umair and Matrixx, and instead of learning their views, you guys have been mobbing on them. I know what a mob is as well as mobbing, which is a crime in democracies. You call India as a democracy, which it is not! Your ex colonial master has come out on this subject. You believe that holding parliamentary elections and forming a Govt. makes India as the largest democracy. Your country needs reforms, your judiciary is weak. I say shame on the country and shame on musllims who destroy or tolerate the destruction of worship houses and this goes for Pakistan military as well. Democracies keep their military in Barracks, do not display them in parliaments either like in the USA. Military is also powerful in the USA. This is not the democracy we are used to in Europe!
You are a fool to imagine that two billion muslims are all brothers. I am no brother of Indian muslims or those who accept the label of a terrorist, when they resist. The two billions make an ummah, which simply means that muslims need to show solidarity with one another if any one is persecuted on account of his FAITH! Today in the 21st century we have human rights, and when European muslims were being persecuted in former Jugoslavia, it was Bill Clinton and the christian armies of the USA and Europe who came to aid them against the onslaught of Serbian army. This is solidarity and this is what the Ibrahimi religions are based on. When Mother Theresa went to India to aid the sick,poor and hungary showed to Indians what the solidarity means to christians.
If I were a sikh and my family had suffered atrocities at the hands of the Indian Govt. or Indira Gandhi war machinery, I would have been worse off than even the dead wood and most probably landed in a forest? I am also aware of the steadfastness of sikhs as a Nation who in history did suffer at the hands of moghal monarchy. Nevertheless, I still expect them to show solidarity with minorites, which I have not observed on this blog. And then you guys have the audicity to call India a democracy, sending its citizens in foreign countries asking for asylum? I have admiration for Pakistan which has taken millions of Pashtoon Afghans into its territory who had to seek refuge for their families when the Russians invaded their land and later the USA army invasion of Afghanistan.
It would be a pity if you guys because of your malice towards Pakistan for variety of reasons, are compelling Bloggers like Umair to leave this spot which is concerned with Pakistan.
I do not agree with Umair that India is a threat for Pakistan. In my view the existance and the economic development and welfare of India hangs in the balance, depending upon Pakistan. The clock is ticking, for how long India can progress when its smaller but hostile neighbour is in possession of N weapons? You do not follow this thinking, then ask the Super Power startegists why it is of importance that Iran and North Korea do not have N’s?
Rex Minor
@Rehmat
What non-sense you are putting out!
I have simply stated what Kp and the agnostic have put out. I have observed nothing muslim about you, therefore in my eyes you are a Pseudo? You must be the first muslim who considers Hindus as ‘Believers’. Why do’nt you give the opportunity to the Hindus to claim this? You want India to be allowed to join OIC? Your arguments are weak and carry no substance. Do you wish to send Salman Rushdie in the conference?
There are two genuine, honest and sincere Pakistanis on this blog, namely Umair and Matrixx, and instead of learning their views, you guys have been mobbing on them. I know what a mob is as well as mobbing, which is a crime in democracies. You call India as a democracy, which it is not! Your ex colonial master has come out on this subject. You believe that holding parliamentary elections and forming a Govt. makes India as the largest democracy. Your country needs reforms, your judiciary is weak. I say shame on the country and shame on musllims who destroy or tolerate the destruction of worship houses and this goes for Pakistan military as well. Democracies keep their military in Barracks, do not display them in parliaments either like in the USA. Military is also powerful in the USA. This is not the democracy we are used to in Europe!
You are a fool to imagine that two billion muslims are all brothers. I am no brother of Indian muslims or those who accept the label of a terrorist, when they resist. The two billions make an ummah, which simply means that muslims need to show solidarity with one another if any one is persecuted on account of his FAITH! Today in the 21st century we have human rights, and when European muslims were being persecuted in former Jugoslavia, it was Bill Clinton and the christian armies of the USA and Europe who came to aid them against the onslaught of Serbian army. This is solidarity and this is what the Ibrahimi religions are based on. When Mother Theresa went to India to aid the sick,poor and hungary showed to Indians what the solidarity means to christians.
If I were a sikh and my family had suffered atrocities at the hands of the Indian Govt. or Indira Gandhi war machinery, I would have been worse off than even the dead wood and most probably landed in a forest? I am also aware of the steadfastness of sikhs as a Nation who in history did suffer at the hands of moghal monarchy. Nevertheless, I still expect them to show solidarity with minorites, which I have not observed on this blog. And then you guys have the audicity to call India a democracy, sending its citizens in foreign countries asking for asylum? I have admiration for Pakistan which has taken millions of Pashtoon Afghans into its territory who had to seek refuge for their families when the Russians invaded their land and later the USA army invasion of Afghanistan.
It would be a pity if you guys because of your malice towards Pakistan for variety of reasons, are compelling Bloggers like Umair to leave this spot which is concerned with Pakistan.
I do not agree with Umair that India is a threat for Pakistan. In my view the existance and the economic development and welfare of India hangs in the balance, depending upon Pakistan. The clock is ticking, for how long India can progress when its smaller but hostile neighbour is in possession of N weapons? You do not follow this thinking, then ask the Super Power startegists why it is of importance that Iran and North Korea do not have N’s?
Rex Minor
Pakistan: “I have admiration for Pakistan which has taken millions of Pashtoon Afghans into its territory who had to seek refuge for their families when the Russians invaded their land and later the USA army invasion of Afghanistan.”
Yeah, they do not want to go back to Afghanistan anymore. Many have settled in Pakistan. In Karachi there are clashes between Pashtuns and locals and Muhajirs. Each one has its own ghetto where no one else can dare go in. You can admire this brotherhood as much as you want. Here is some Pashtun love for Pakistan for you:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b4JnYmKlt mc&feature=related
Enjoy!
@KP
If the sikh community had asked Pakistan Govt. for help, they could have beem welcome, instead of seeking asylum in cold Canada and Europe!
Rex Minor
@”If the sikh community had asked Pakistan Govt. for help, they could have beem welcome, instead of seeking asylum in cold Canada and Europe!” Posted by pakistan
Retard, are you even remotely aware of the plight of sikhs in Pakistan? And for the last time, all sikhs living in Europe & North America have not migrated there on grounds of political assylum. A small portion seeked assylum & this was back in the 80′s. So get your facts straight before babbling like an idiot & making a fool of yourself (although you have already established that).
@Mortal
So you guys have personal grievences or those against your community, by India and Pakistan. In other words you are very much biased! i understand your position. Now try and write a paragraph in english language which is civil and does not depend upon the foul language. Later you can visit Austria and Germany and try to find out how many sikh families took refuge there and how come India as a democracy is still recognised as a country from where Sikhs and Kashmiris besides others are eligible for political assylum.
Rex Minor
Pakistan: “If the sikh community had asked Pakistan Govt. for help, they could have beem welcome, instead of seeking asylum in cold Canada and Europe!”
Take a look at these:
http://www.venturousbikers.com/2010/02/t aliban-kill-2-sikhs-send-heads-to.html
http://canarytrap.in/2010/03/29/vanishin g-hindu-sikh-minorities-in-pakistan/
@”So you guys have personal grievences or those against your community, by India and Pakistan. In other words you are very much biased!” Posted by pakistan
I’m not biased against Pakistan. The difference between your perspective & mine is that you are looking at this whole thing (sikhs, India & Pakistan) from the lens of 1984 whereas I’m looking at things from 2011 perspective. I’ve lived through the horrors of 1984 (although I was very young) & acknowledge that it was a very difficult time for my community in India. At that time, I agree that even Pakistan would have been a better place to live in, since it was stable & moderate. But today, things are completely different. A quarter of a century has passed since the unfortunate incident, a lot of things have changed in India & sikhs have moved on & are happy living in a multi cultural indian society. On the other hand, Pakistan’s law & order machinery has all but failed & all minorities, including sikhs, are targeted on a daily basis, leaving them completely vulnerable & helpless. If you want to term someone as “dead wood”, it would be the minorities is Pakistan & not sikhs is India.
@”Later you can visit Austria and Germany and try to find out how many sikh families took refuge”
Are you suggesting that most sikhs living in Austria & Germany have migrated there on grounds of political assylum? I have a few aquaintainces in those countries & will get that info from them. But from my experience, only a small percentage (less than 5%) of sikhs living in US, Canada, UK, Australia & other western countries have taken political assylum in those countries.
Pakistan: “If the sikh community had asked Pakistan Govt. for help, they could have beem welcome, instead of seeking asylum in cold Canada and Europe!”
There are people in my community who day dream of a united Punjab, made up of all Punjabis – Muslims, Sikhs, Christians and Hindus with Lahore as the capital. That is how Punjab was before a wily and opportunistic Gujerati lawyer split us up into factions. Punjabi culture overrides religion. For generations all the various religious groups lived side by side. We Punjabis are hurt even more by the partition of our land than that between India and Pakistan. Punjab suffered the worst during partition. People who lived like brothers, slaughtered each other. It is a very painful memory etched in the hearts of all Punjabis.
Even if partition had happened, I wish it never happened the way it did. I am sure Jinnah never wanted people to cross migrate and slaughter each other. I guess he wanted people to stay where they were and continue with their lives. If partition of Punjab had not happened with violence, I am sure we all could have lived as neighbors. However, in that violence, Muslims went on one side and the others went on the other side. We Sikhs have moved in with non-Muslims and have moved on.
During the 1970s and 19080s, things did look scary in India and we were wondering what would happen to us, especially the minorities. In 1984, we were really worried. There were spotty mutinies by the Sikhs. Many of our relatives moved abroad, especially Canada. And they still live with those memories.
Considering the conditions in Pakistan today and comparing India’s relatively better position, I’d say Sikhs are safer in India than in Pakistan. This is based on today’s perspective. India has focused on not being a religion based nation, even though it has the world’s largest diversity of religions. India has really made an effort in the secular direction and it tells very clearly. Most of the time I never become conscious of my identity. People do not care. One becomes conscious of his identity and feel the suspicious eyes around when minorities feel threatened. That fear is disappearing fast in India. At least that is my personal experience. If I were to choose a safe place on earth today, I’d say without any hesitation that it is Canada. I have no motivation to settle here, even though my wife’s side keeps pressing me to migrate.
India is the place to be today. I will miss all the spicy and colorful, never boring daily life in India. I need to hear the honks, I want to walk through the crowd, feel the traffic, bargain with the vegetable vendor, eat hot sambar and masala dosa, go on my Enfield motor bike and just complain and bitch about everything at the street corner in the evening. Nothing will give me that life elsewhere.