Musharraf’s Kashmir deal, mirage or oasis?

January 20, 2011

musharraf londonThe foreign secretaries, or top diplomats,  of India and Pakistan are expected to meet on the sidelines of a South Asian summit in Thimpu, Bhutan on Feb 6/7 to try to find a way back into talks which have been stalled since the attack on Mumbai in November 2008. Progress is expected to be limited, perhaps paving the way to a meeting of the foreign ministers, or to deciding how future talks should be structured.

Expectations are running low, all the more so after a meeting between the foreign ministers descended into acrimony last July. And leaders in neither country have the political space to take the kind of risks needed for real peace talks right now. Pakistan is struggling with the fall-out of the assassination of Punjab governor Salman Taseer  among many other things, while Indian Prime Minister Manmohan Singh has been weakened by a corruption scandal at home.

However, in the interests of establishing a baseline, I asked former president Pervez Musharraf in an interview earlier this week about a roadmap for peace he had agreed with Prime Minister Singh in 2007 before political turmoil forced him out of office. The roadmap brought the two countries to their nearest in years to a peace deal, and during Barack Obama’s presidential election campaign, there was a great deal of hope it  could be revived in order to ease tensions between India and Pakistan  in turn helping to stabilise Afghanistan. Even after the Mumbai attacks ended chances of an early “Kashmir to Kabul” peace settlement, the idea has lingered on as one of the more promising models. Yet since the agreement was reached in secret, its details have never been officially released.

Diplomats say the agreement hinged on an acceptance by India and Pakistan that there would be no exchange of territory in disputed Kashmir but they would work to make irrelevant the Line of Control which divides the region. There was also supposed to be a “joint mechanism” under which Indians, Pakistanis and Kashmiris would oversee areas of common interest.  No one can agree, however, on far advanced the talks were. Some say the deal was ready for signing; others that there was still a long way to go.  In particular, the two countries had yet to agree the nature of the “joint mechanism”, and bring on board their own people and domestic constituencies in accepting the agreement. Here is what Musharraf had to say when I asked him about the sceptics’ view of the draft agreement:

“You are probably concentrating only on Kashmir. But there were two other issues, Sir Creek and Siachen. On Sir Creek and Siachen we reached a stage that they can be signed yesterday. There is no doubt in my mind.”  The disputed territory in Sir Creek had been surveyed and was just awaiting a leadership decision, he said. ”Then Siachen, we had decided on the relocation of troops beyond certain lines, so everything is done.”

“Yes, Kashmir is not that easy. We had found basic parameters; it was my idea actually … the parameters were first of all demilitarising, which meant really demilitarising on the Line of Control; graduated demilitarisation from the Line of Control and also from the cities in the Indian part of Kashmir; that is what is bothering and troubling the civilians there; so therefore in first case leave the cities and go into the outskirts and then further getting to garrisons. The second element was maximum self-governance, and the third was an overwatch of those areas not given for self-governance, and also (to) see how the self-governance is functioning. This body we had proposed, I had proposed, (was to) be of Kashmiris, Pakistanis and Indians.

 ”So these were the parameters and then the issue was of the Line of Control, making the Line of Control irrelevant … The Indians thought we should make this as a permanent border. My view was that this has been the cause of wars. How can we have the cause of conflict as the permanent solution? So my idea was that we could look into making the Line of Control irrelevant.

 ”Now we were in the process of drafting an agreement. Obviously there were differences on the wording and the expressions.”  He said that the leadership in both countries needed to show sincerity, flexibility and above all political courage to see the deal through. ”Because when you reach a deal or an agreement, there is always a give and take. Nobody will allow a take-and-take to the other side. So where there is a give-and-take the good path is the one which leader has faced boldly because there will be elements in your country who will agitate, on both sides, because the give has to be on both sides … So now I don’t know whether we could have shown that kind of guts and leadership that we arrived at a conclusion within six months, but we were making fast progress, that I know.”

Asked about how many people had been involved on the Pakistan side beyond Musharraf and his special envoy, Tariq Aziz, he said the foreign minister and foreign secterary were always taken on board, while Pakistan Army chief, General Ashfaq Pervez Kayani – then head of the Inter-Services Intelligence (ISI) – had been there since the beginning. “He was the DG-ISI, so he had to be on board.”

The draft agreement has been virtually disowned by the current government, which says it has no record of it, even in the Foreign Office.

“Do they want peace or not? If they want peace, then let them come up with another idea,” Musharraf said. “Nobody has the right to disown something that was moving forward unless you come out with another idea. If you have another idea by all means go ahead … but I believe that peace is essential.”

The former military ruler who plans to return to Pakistan to fight elections due by 2013 said he believed the deal could still be resurrected.  It had been discussed with politicians on both sides of Kashmir, along with the main separatist alliance, the All Parties Hurriyat Conference, and everyone was on board on the parameters, he said. And nobody else had come with another solution.

Those Musharraf/Singh talks are history now.  The two countries have reverted to their stated positions – Pakistan that the future of Kashmir must be settled through a plebiscite in line with U.N. resolutions; India that the region is such an integral part of the country that it does not even recognise its status as disputed.

Perhaps that deal was always going to be a mirage, the final details slipping elusively out of grasp. Or perhaps it is the only model that could ever have worked. At least if we know enough about what nearly happened we might be to assess better where talks might go in the future.

(Reuters photo: Musharraf speaks during an interview at his London home/Stefan Wermuth)

192 comments

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Myra”Perhaps that deal was always going to be a mirage, the final details slipping elusively out of grasp. Or perhaps it is the only model that could ever have worked. At least if we know enough about what nearly happened we might be to assess better where talks might go in the future”

-Sure, a golden opportunity of peace was lost. Having initiated the Kargil war and then retreat, Musharraf knew peace should be given a genuine chance. With current status quo and situation in Indian side of Kashmir another Kargil can possibly happen. It will be lot more difficult to bring India to negotiating table, and Gen. Kayani is a soldier and spymaster more willing to play it on the battlefield. Things don’t look good for future.

Posted by Umairpk | Report as abusive

From an Indian stand point, I would never trust Musharraf on anything. This guy is a blatant liar, double dealer, and backstabber clubbed into one.

This was the guy who has been trying various things on Kashmir. If one attempt did not work, he tried another. He led the troops in the Siachien war, gained ground and then lost it. He then completely ignored the Lahore peace accord and launched the Kargil offensive. He declared outright that no Pakistani soldiers were involved. Much later he retracted that statement and agreed that soldiers had been sent in disguise. This is the guy who set up Harkut Al Ansar while projecting a secular face. He led the Americans into his deceptive trap and brought the entire Afghan war to a standstill. Americans had to stage manage his ouster to get closer to the situation. He is a skilled double dealer and I would never trust any facade that he projects.

The back channel talks were probably his next plan to back stab India through the facade of some kind of peaceful settlement. The very fact that the next Pak administration has conveniently lost the draft of this plans means as soon Musharraf doctrine had taken effect, it would not have been honored by the next regime in Pakistan. Indians would have walked into a trap by withdrawing the military and allowing Jihadists to spread far and wide into Kashmir. The current regime would simply have said that Musharraf plans are irrelevant. India could not have been in a position to get the troops back in and Kashmiris would be propped up against the “Indian invasion.”

It was a big elephant trap. Musharraf was very close to trapping India in Kashmir. I am glad it did not work. India needs to hold on to Kashmir for another decade. It is an extremely geo-strategic location in regards to today’s scenario of a nuclear Pakistan, China and volatile Afghanistan bordering that region. Equations have changed from the past. Once upon a time this region was strategic against the expanding Russians. They are history. Now there is a new reality. Much like holding on to the barren Siachien glacier, India has no choice but to hold on to Kashmir. Otherwise we will see the Chinese moving in fast with Pakistan’s help and problems facing Delhi from close quarters. Pakistan’s missiles will move very close to India’s capital if Kashmir is let go.

The only way Kashmir can be settled in today’s context will be by neutralizing Pakistan’s threat to the region by liberating Balochistan, Pashunistan and Sindh. A reduced Pakistan is needed before Kashmir equation can be looked at.

I have nothing against the people of today’s Pakistan. I am simply looking at things from a geo-strategic viewpoint. We have China to deal with in addition to Pakistan. We can’t afford to give both villains any advantage. Pakistan is trying to drive India out of Afghanistan for the same reason.

Posted by KPSingh01 | Report as abusive

I don’t think India needs to make any compromises with Pakistan on Kashmir at this time. Pakistan is weakening by the day. Karachi is burning, Baluchistan is burning, NWFP & FATA are a war zone & Punjab is being consumed by radical forces. It will be best for India to wait & see what becomes of Pakistan before compromising on anything. If Kayani is stupid enough to plan another misadventure in Kashmir (which I don’t think he is), it will only speed up Pakistan’s isolation & demise. Having said that, India does need to take bold & immediate steps to come up with a political solution with the Kashmiris in J&K. India needs to take initiatives & bring lasting peace to the valley, making Pakistan irrelevant.

Posted by Mortal1 | Report as abusive

[...] This post was mentioned on Twitter by pragmatic_desi, Swat Crisis, James Channing, Eddie Wemple, Pakistan Now Never and others. Pakistan Now Never said: Musharraf’s Kashmir deal, mirage or oasis? http://dlvr.it/Dk4T5 [...]

KP Singh said:

> I am simply looking at things from a geo-strategic viewpoint. [...] We can’t afford to give both villains any advantage.

Well, from a geostrategic viewpoint, no country is a “villain”. Every country tries to secure its own interests. From the perspective of other countries, India could be a “villain” by virtue of simply protecting its own interests. I think Indian analysts have started using the term “status quo power” as geostrategic shorthand to say India is a good guy :-). i.e., we don’t have territorial claims on anyone else.

I actually wonder about that. If India believes that Pakistan is in illegal occupation of AJK and GB, and that China is in illegal occupation of Aksai Chin and the piece of Kashmir that Pakistan occupied in 1947-48 and gifted to China, then shouldn’t the Indian government be more vocal and persistent about these outstanding items? At the very least, it would be useful in negotiations.

Instead, by already accepting that these other countries are probably not going to return these territories, India has effectively allowed them to be taken off the table, and now only Indian-held Kashmir and Arunachal Pradesh remain on the table to be claimed by other countries. Some status quo power! Is there a geostrategic shorthand for foolish?

In contrast, look at the way Pakistan keeps going on about Kashmir. It’s now abundantly clear that the Kashmiris want their own independent country and don’t want to be part of either India or Pakistan. So either the Pakistanis haven’t grasped the momumentally embarrassing import of this desire (the plebiscite they keep demanding will end up costing them AJK and GB!), or they never had any intention to let the Kashmiris have self-determination in the first place (which is probably more likely). Again, India’s silence in not pointing out the contradiction is very surprising. If the Kashmir agitation is truly indigenous, as Pakistan now keeps emphasising, then what is Pakistan’s locus standi anyway? It’s between India and the Kashmiris. In fact, from the Kashmiri perspective, both India and Pakistan are unwelcome occupiers, and both should be on the defensive. Why does India let Pakistan take the moral high ground? Very puzzling.

It’s interesting that Musharraf points out the difference between his interpretation of the proposed agreement and India’s. India believed that the LoC would be made the international border. This is what all of us were led to believe about the agreement, which is why we were hoping for it to succeed. When Manmohan Singh talked about making the border irrelevant, he meant benign stuff like people being able to go across to the other country without requiring visas, etc. In hindsight, I think Musharraf’s interpretation of an irrelevant border was more self-serving. It looks as if he meant, “you remove your troops from the border and our people will occupy Kashmir without having to fight.”

I’m beginning to think India would have made a more foolish mistake in signing this agreement than at any other time in its history. It would have effectively handed over Kashmir on a platter.

Now, of course, as Mortal1 says, it’s best for India to wait and see what becomes of Pakistan before compromising on anything. KP Singh’s musing on actively breaking up Pakistan into four is pointless. It merely offends Pakistanis without achieving anything. If such a breakup happens, it will be because of Pakistanis themselves. If the country stays together, it will be because of Pakistanis themselves. Right now, there are enormous centrifugal forces generated within the country itself with no need for external contribution. The next couple of years will be crucial for Pakistan’s existence, and other countries should avoid complicating the situation through interference or even appearances of interference.

I think the best thing India can do is project a constructive yet strong message. India should show that it doesn’t want to interfere in Pakistan’s affairs, but that it will protect itself and its interests. All said and done, everyone respects strength. If you keep taking your own best negotiating points off the table, never point out embarrassing contradictions in the other party’s position and are willing to sign agreements without knowing how the other party interprets it, then you project an image of foolishness, not strength. It naturally encourages the other party to take advantage, and they shouldn’t be thought of as villains for taking advantage of a gullible country.

That’s geopolitics.

It’s embarrassing that India is one of the few countries on a strong ascendant path to be on the backfoot with respect to a country on a disastrous downward trajectory. Maybe that’s what “status quo power” means. We refuse to take advantage of even legitimate factors in our favour.

Regards,
Ganesh Prasad

Posted by prasadgc | Report as abusive

India has two choices in Kashmir – Amend the armed forces protection act and bring in accountability, open up the economy and bring peace through negotiated settlement (OR)

Colonize Kashmir by abrogating its special status, allow Indian businesses to move in, send in families from other parts of India to settle and turn it into a non-Muslim majority state. Arm all the families, and train them in order to protect themselves from the locals until they are accepted. Stone pelters must be countered with stone pelters from the other side. Once balance is achieved, things will calm down. Many Sikhs will gladly settle down in Kashmir. Pakistan has already settle Punjabis and Pashtuns in its part of Kashmir.

Either of the two will help relieve the headache in Kashmir. The latter choice will be somewhat violent at the start. But persistence will pay off. The current status quo will make things worse. There is no use being nice anymore.

Posted by KPSingh01 | Report as abusive

When I said “It’s now abundantly clear that the Kashmiris want their own independent country and don’t want to be part of either India or Pakistan”, I meant the Kashmiri Muslims on both sides of the border. Hindus and Buddhists in the territory would probably prefer to stay in India.

Regards,
Ganesh Prasad

Posted by prasadgc | Report as abusive

Mortal:”2:31 pm ESTI don’t think India needs to make any compromises with Pakistan on Kashmir at this time. Pakistan is weakening by the day. Karachi is burning, Baluchistan is burning, NWFP & FATA are a war zone & Punjab is being consumed by radical forces. It will be best for India to wait & see what becomes of Pakistan before compromising on anything. If Kayani is stupid enough to plan another misadventure in Kashmir (which I don’t think he is), ”

-You are sadly mistaken my friend, Kayani has turnd Afghanistan into a proxy battleground between India and Pakistan. Right now he is planning to train Afghan Army and Police force. I don’t think the military planners in Rawalpindi will let go Kashmir so easily. Once things coold down in Afghanistan, battle lines will be redrawn in Kashmir. Like I stated before, conditions will be created to bring India to a point where concessions become necessary. Like the South African aparthied regime, occupied forces eventually crumble. The power of people toppled a dictator in Tunisia who reigned for 27 years. Ho long can you hold on to Kashmir? Rest assured Pakistan will outlive the turmoil it is facing today. Getting the economy back on track will put the country back on the right course within a span of 5 years. No one is drowning, no mayday calls.

Posted by Umairpk | Report as abusive

GP: “Well, from a geostrategic viewpoint, no country is a “villain”.”

Therefore China’s conquest of Tibet should not be mistaken.

In the case of Kashmir, India did not invade the place. It sent in its troops to drive of tribesmen who came into plunder the region. It was India that took the case to the UN. Pakistan refused to honor it at that time. And six decades have gone without any solution. In the meantime, China has grown immensely. Pakistan has become a nuclear powered nation and is steaming with Islamic radicals. The whole scenario has changed.

Even if Kashmir had been resolved, the developments in Pakistan are such that Jihad would have continued further. Remember the motto of LeT. If these elements are allowed to take over Kashmir today, which they will if given any room, Khalistan is next. Punjab and Haryana will be the next targets. Let us not fool ourselves. Pakistan and China would love to see India burn. India has not tried to reciprocate that attitude. India has been quite benign. Therefore in this story there sure are villains. It is not a standpoint from one side. Pakistan has taunted India time and again, only to be beaten back. Give me one example of India doing the same in Pakistan. Bangladesh happened because of the genocide committed by West Pakistan.

In the last two decades, India has moved forward and has given up many of the activities it was engaged in to counter the geo-politics of that time. Now things are different. India is being bullied periodically. Mumbai attacks were the latest one. When that is the case, it is not difficult to point at who the villains in this game are.

We have to protect our interests. If we are in chaos and unable to manage ourselves, then sure the solution to seek would be an alternative structure where the union is chopped off into independent states that can take care of their own affairs. Right now that is not the case with India. It is very clear who the aggressor is and my view comes from a defensive standpoint.

“Every country tries to secure its own interests. From the perspective of other countries, India could be a “villain” by virtue of simply protecting its own interests.”

To exist is everyone’s right. To prevent others from existing in peace is not right. India has not prevented Pakistan or China from existing. But there is enough evidence to point otherwise. Therefore India has every right to defend its interests. We have not launched a Jihad in Tibet, now that we have the nukes and missiles.

“I think Indian analysts have started using the term “status quo power” as geostrategic shorthand to say India is a good guy :-) . i.e., we don’t have territorial claims on anyone else.”

Indian system is slow and lethargic. They lack diplomatic skills. That is unfortunate.

Posted by KPSingh01 | Report as abusive

KPSingh:”The only way Kashmir can be settled in today’s context will be by neutralizing Pakistan’s threat to the region by liberating Balochistan, Pashunistan and Sindh. A reduced Pakistan is needed before Kashmir equation can be looked at. ”

-Good luck to you in this age of modern nuclear warfare.

Posted by Umairpk | Report as abusive

Umair said:

> Kayani has turnd Afghanistan into a proxy battleground between India and Pakistan. Right now he is planning to train Afghan Army and Police force. I don’t think the military planners in Rawalpindi will let go Kashmir so easily. Once things coold down in Afghanistan, battle lines will be redrawn in Kashmir. Like I stated before, conditions will be created to bring India to a point where concessions become necessary.

“My friends, we’ve got them just where we want them”
- John McCain, 3 weeks before the November 2008 election

“Evacuate? In our hour of triumph?”
- Grand Moff Tarkin, seconds before the Death Star’s explosion

“The Americans are committing suicide by the hundreds at the gates of Baghdad”
- Mohammed Saeed al-Sahaf, Iraqi foreign minister during the US invasion

I find your combination of complacency, hubris and bravado fascinating. Good luck!

Regards,
Ganesh Prasad

Posted by prasadgc | Report as abusive

KP, I understand and empathise with your position. My point is this is an emotional stand and does not pay dividends. India has always wanted to feel appreciated by the world for its morally superior position. This is a naive hope and will never be fulfilled. I think it’s better to let go such dreams and start using strength ruthlessly. Ironically, more countries will line up to say nice things about India once they know how nasty it can be. Realpolitik, after all. That’s the only language people understand.

You can see people on this blog shaking their fists even as they’re drowning, giving a new twist to the old saying, “He’s not waving, he’s drowning”. India needs a bit more of the killer instinct of MacDonalds’ Ray Kroc, “If you see a competitor drowning, you stick a hose down his throat.” Far from India threatening to grab AJK and GB now that Pakistan is in deep trouble, it’s Pakistan that is threatening to grab Indian Kashmir “when it recovers”. Absolutely astonishing!

Those wonderful nuclear weapons will surely come in of use over the next couple of years when hyperinflation hits and people start starving. I’m sure the elites will be happy to say “If they don’t have roti, let them eat isotopes”.

I’m still shaking my head in disbelief.

Regards,
Ganesh Prasad

Posted by prasadgc | Report as abusive

@”I don’t think the military planners in Rawalpindi will let go Kashmir so easily. Once things coold down in Afghanistan, battle lines will be redrawn in Kashmir. Like I stated before, conditions will be created to bring India to a point where concessions become necessary.” Posted by Umairpk

I know, from an emotional point of veiw, all Pakistanis would like to see Pakistan get back to “challenging India” on Kashmir but facts and reality are quite different from the delusion, you so desperately want to believe in. May I ask, exactly what “conditions” can Pakistan create to bring India in a compromising position? Sorry to inform you Umair, but you are in NO position to gain any consessions from India & you neither have the means nor the resources for it. When you could not shake India when it was the weakest & you were the strongest (back in the 90s), what makes you think you can do it now, with India being where it is & Pakistan on the brink?
Even in your best case secenario, where Pakistan gets back on track in 5 yrs, do you think India will be waiting for you? NO, in 5 yrs India will be 50% stronger than it is today (growing at 9-10% anually) with more clout & influence in the world (your wish of it becoming a permanent member of UNSC might also come true by then :)). So, all in all, your threats seem nothing more than emotional but hollow rhetoric devoid of facts. I’m not saying this to demean Pakistan or you but one can’t argue with facts & statistics.

@”Ho long can you hold on to Kashmir?”

That’s why I mentioned in my comment that although India does not need to make any consessions for Pakistan, it needs to work with the Kashmiris & take urgent & bold measures to bring lasting peace & prosperity to J&K.

Posted by Mortal1 | Report as abusive

I agree with Ganesh. There’s no need for India to interfere in Pakistan’s affairs & encourage it’s fragmentation. Pakistanis seem to be their own worst enemies & they won’t need help from anyone, to self-destruct. India needs to concentrate on it’s economic growth & find political solutions in Kashmir & East India.

Posted by Mortal1 | Report as abusive

> > @”Ho long can you hold on to Kashmir?”

> That’s why I mentioned in my comment that although India does not need to make any consessions for Pakistan, it needs to work with the Kashmiris & take urgent & bold measures to bring lasting peace & prosperity to J&K.

I think Pakistan has helped India in its negotiations with Kashmiris by showing them the horror of life as prospective Pakistani citizens. As MJ Akbar said, if Salman Taseer had been an Indian Muslim, he would be alive today. The Kashmiris may want out of India, but they’re not suicidal fools. As a negotiation tactic, India should threaten to let them go ;-).

Regards,
Ganesh Prasad

Posted by prasadgc | Report as abusive

Mortal:”That’s why I mentioned in my comment that although India does not need to make any consessions for Pakistan, it needs to work with the Kashmiris & take urgent & bold measures to bring lasting peace & prosperity to J&K.”

-LOL, what if bad boys from Pakistan Army spoil the party, diversionary fire, militant infiltration across the LOC, artrillery shelling, another Kargil. Sounds all too familiar? Afterall Kashmir is still an unresolved DISPUTE. I don’t think you can write Pakistan off so quickly. Only a tri-lateral solution will work.

Posted by Umairpk | Report as abusive

Umairpk: Good luck to you in this age of modern nuclear warfare.”

Nukes will do nothing. I am talking about Pakistan splintering up on its own the way Yugoslavia did. India has no plans to get involved and I’d like it that way. The only thing we have to make sure that we protect our borders and our citizens when your country starts imploding. Probably some of you will still be thumping your chests as you go down the drain. The only factor that is protecting Pakistan from falling apart is American help. They are doing it not because of any special love for your country. They have their interests in the region – settling Afghanistan. To do that they need a stable Pakistan so that their supplies do not get caught in the cross fire between the factions inside Pakistan. So pray that they stay in the region for as long as it takes. If they leave, Pakistan will burn. Settling scores with India on Kashmir should not be the top priority for you people.

Posted by KPSingh01 | Report as abusive

@”what if bad boys from Pakistan Army spoil the party, diversionary fire, militant infiltration across the LOC, artrillery shelling, another Kargil. Sounds all too familiar? Posted by Umairpk

Maybe, you did not read the first part of my response to you, read it again. One needs resources (& plenty of them) to fight conventional or proxy wars, resources which you simply don’t have. If your boys from Pakistani army are stupid enough to start another proxy war while their treasury is virtually empty, poverty is rapidly rising & international support is next to NIL, they will be digging their grave faster than anyone else can dig for them. Chest thumping on a blog is one thing, materializing it into action, is another.

@”I don’t think you can write Pakistan off so quickly.”

Pakistan is writing itself off. Personally, I’d like to see Pakistan get out of it’s current mess & become peaceful & prosperous again as that would mean peace & prosperity for the region but facts point in another direction. If you have a basic understanding of macroeconomics, you would know what kind of damage, a few years of 15% inflation can do to a country growing by just 3.5%. And in these conditions, if you initiate another misadventure in Kashmir, you guys will write yourself off completely.

Posted by Mortal1 | Report as abusive

Umair,

The greatest threat to Pakistan is not India, Islamic militancy or US drone attacks. It’s the economy. Hyperinflation will ravage your country. Watch it.

Regards,
Ganesh Prasad

P.S. Mortal1, inflation won’t remain at 15% for long. It’s a spiral.

Posted by prasadgc | Report as abusive

Friends

This post is regarding the Kashmir dispute and Musharraf’s possible solution for future. Why do you want to lecture me on macroeconomics?
BTW, personally I dont think we are down in the drain as yet, we could appear to be one day, but are capable to come back right on top of the world firing on full cylinders the next. Besides, if we were to go down anyways, I would not mind some brinkmanship towards Kashmir/India. As I stated before and I repeat, Kashmir is a dispute. Pakistan has a stand on Kashmir and will continue to take up the stand regardless of inflation or macroeconomic indicators. If India does not hit the economic growth target next quarter for example, will it drop its claim to Arunachal Pardesh? Or if China cannot meet its export qoutas will it drop its claim on Taiwan or Macau? and it would be stupid on part of British PM if he get rid of Northern Ireland because Britain could attract enough foreign investment. If you make a point, give me the right logic.
Lets keep it seperate, Pakistan’s internal situation has got nothing to do with Kashmir. I am not saying that Pakistan will start a nasty little proxy war on Kashmir. What I am implying is that Kashmir is a festering wound both for India and Pakistan. A justified solution will open up opportunities for peace.
And if the situation inside Kashmir gets worse it could push both countries to the brink. We know its a flashpoint, amid so much trouble last thing we need is to go to war over Kashmir yet again.

Lastly, guirella wars are fought with minimal resources, all you need to equip a guirella is with an assault rifle, feed him, guide him to the target. And an angered population will take up arms, fight alongside the guirella and even provide him shelter. I am not implying that these dirty tactics should be used, all I am saying is lets have a good cold look at the possible solutions of Kashmir. It will be a great favour to our future generations if we can put this behind us after almost 65 years.

Posted by Umairpk | Report as abusive

PS* and it would be stupid on part of British PM if he get rid of Northern Ireland because Britain could *NOT* attract enough foreign investment.

—also, just as you are not economists, similarly I am not expert in guirella warfare. Our objective should be to share ideas, debate the topic and generate goodwill. Without generating goodwill at every level, official, non-official, privately and in opublic, there can be no solutions for longstanding problems.

Posted by Umairpk | Report as abusive

Having exhausted all coercive options, this discredited general wants to win diplomatically. Mushie must understand that diplomacy comes first and war, only after diplomacy fails.
By playing his trump cards first up(with very dubious results), he is all set to lose any future diplomatic negotiations.

Posted by trickey | Report as abusive

Umair,

I have a number of different questions for you.

1. Sometimes you appear very conciliatory and reasonable (as with your latest post) and sometimes you appear very belligerent. I find it hard to know what exactly you feel and how to respond.

2. The macroeconomics point was about “Can Pakistan afford to be starting a fight”? There are more important things than Kashmir.

3. “If India does not hit the economic growth target next quarter for example, will it drop its claim to Arunachal Pardesh?” This isn’t a good analogy because India already holds Arunachal Pradesh. It should be about something that you claim but don’t have, and for which you’re prepared to fight. There is really no good analogy in the case of India because India doesn’t claim territory that others are holding. (It’s surprising to me that India seems to have given up on AJK, GB, Aksai Chin, etc.)

4. I honestly don’t understand why Pakistan keeps talking about Kashmir, unless one believes Kashmir belongs to Pakistan. But then we also talk about the right of the Kashmiris to self-determination and the need for a plebiscite. Well, the closest thing to a plebiscite has in fact already been held (the Chatham House survey), and it says the overwhelming majority of Kashmiris want independence and don’t want to join either India or Pakistan.

So make up your mind:

a) Emphasise the rights of the Kashmiris => then you have to accept that they view both Pakistan and India as unwelcome occupiers. It’s silly for Pakistan to keep raising the Kashmir issue because like India, you’re the bad guys too!

b) Emphasise Pakistan’s claims to Kashmir => then you have to accept that the will of the Kashmiris doesn’t matter to you. Then it’s silly for Pakistan to keep insisting on a UN-conducted plebiscite.

You can’t have it both ways. The days when the Kashmiris may have wanted to join Pakistan are long gone, if they ever existed.

In short, I think we’re going around in circles. There doesn’t seem to be a way by which Pakistan will ever be satisfied unless
a) India gives up all claims to Kashmir and withdraws
b) the Kashmiris give up their dreams of independence and agree to join Pakistan

Is either going to happen?

I like your suggestion of sharing ideas and debating the topic, so why don’t you please address the contradiction I have pointed out in point 4 above? What do you think about this?

Regards,
Ganesh Prasad

Posted by prasadgc | Report as abusive

GP,

Kashmir is issue is badly needed in Pakistan to keep public attention away from national issues. If you see their view, it is always innocent Pakistan being weakened and exploited by external forces. It never is Pakistan’s contribution to any of the issues. If Kashmir issue had been resolved in the 1940s itself, Pakistan would have raised some other issue to keep its tangle with India. Kashmir’s resolution is a vague term. If you ask them specifically what they mean by it, you will get no answers.

It must be realized that Pakistan’s creation based on flimsy grounds, needs an external threat to keep its fragile unity alive. They have been desperately trying to keep an external enemy at all costs. They have done nothing to build their nation as a result. This is like taking steroids. They have become weakened by them.

Just think about this – their people and generals had no qualms about the slaughter of Bengali Muslims. Now they are campaigning for the rights of Kashmiri Muslims, where nothing done by the Indian military compares in any dimension. They staged a proxy war in Kashmir for a decade, drew the Indian military in, and waited. The military would get frustrated and start taking it out on the public. That would change the public reaction towards India. This is yet another trick up their sleeves and it worked. So now India is made to look like an evil nation. And that does has helped keep Pakistani spirit alive. If kashmir is suddenly given up, they will be in a shock and won’t know what to do with the change.

Posted by KPSingh01 | Report as abusive

Umair,

As Ganesh said, you need to make up your mind as to what exactly do you want, cuz you seem quite confused! This is what I mean:

You say “I am not saying that Pakistan will start a nasty little proxy war on Kashmir” but then in the same comment you also say “if we were to go down anyways, I would not mind some brinkmanship towards Kashmir/India”.

As for macroeconomics, it’s the MOST important aspect when it comes to fighting a conventional or proxy war and I pointed that out because you said “Once things coold down in Afghanistan, battle lines will be redrawn in Kashmir. Like I stated before, conditions will be created to bring India to a point where concessions become necessary”
AND you also said “what if bad boys from Pakistan Army spoil the party, diversionary fire, militant infiltration across the LOC, artrillery shelling, another Kargil. Sounds all too familiar?”
If the above comments are not a clear indication of the initiation of a proxy war in Kashmir by Pakistan, can you expalin exactly what are they supposed to mean?

You need to get your thoughts together & figure out if you want be belligerant or concilliatory because you can’t be both.

Posted by Mortal1 | Report as abusive

Also, I’m generally aganist India’s intervention in Pakistan’s internal affairs & efforts towards it’s fragmentation BUT if Pakistan initiates another proxy war in Indian Kashmir or foments any trouble there, all bets are off and I would hope & expect India to return the favor in Baluchistan, Sindh etc. Unlike Pakistan, India has the means & resources to ignite Pakistan & set it ablaze within no time. Pakistanis need to realize that it’s a two way street.

Posted by Mortal1 | Report as abusive

Ganesh,

Another thing I forgot to mention about is the true intention on Kashmir. I don’t think you were in this forum when Umair mentioned that intention – to avenge the secession of East Pakistan. Pakistani army is reeling with this emotion.

When the proxy war was honed and perfected in Afghanistan, Alsam Beg, Hamid Gul and Ghulam Ishaq Khan assumed that the same could be tried in Kashmir. Launch a holy war using insurgents and sustain it over a decade. This is a strategy pulled right out of the famous book “The art of war.” Until the locals support your cause, you cannot win any war in your enemy’s territory.

In 1965, Operation Gibraltor was launched by Ayub Khan. If you read the plan at that time, it was pretty much along the same lines as that plan launched in 1989. The only difference is that they assumed then that the local Kashmiris would support the insurgency. At that time, Kashmiri locals did not have anti-Indian sentiments. They caught the insurgents and handed them over to the security forces. The Ayub launched a war to cover that embarrassment.

In 1989, they had factored in this weakness. They had realized through their experience in the war in Afghanistan against the USSR that the first thing is to bring the locals on to their side. And this is not something that can be done overnight. So they launched a long and controlled insurgency in Kashmir. Their plan was very simple – lure the Indian military into Kashmir and frustrate them. Insurgents were expendable and were promised of room in the Heavens. And these were highly trained insurgents who had experience from Afghan Jihad. Now all they had to do was to sit back and wait. They used diplomatic skills to prevent any sympathy arising towards India. They knew that friction would arise and frustration would build. IPKF in Sri Lanka underwent the same experience. IPKF came back defeated. So it was only a matter of time before the Indian military underwent the same experience.

Militaries are brutal. They go on missions with defined priorities. They are not subject to civilian regulations. If a zone is declared as a war zone, the military does not care if there are civilians in it or wild life. Anything that does not obey its orders is considered a hindrance and gets eliminated right away. And Pakistani planners were waiting for this to happen. Locals were threatened into providing cover for the insurgents. Those who resisted were eliminated. And the blame was put on the Indian security forces. Life came to a standstill. Tourism died. Livelihood was affected. The next generation of Kashmiris were growing up seeing a siege rather than normal life. And they took to arms. The tide began to turn towards Pakistan. This added more to the frustration of the Indian military and it went after the locals. Things gained momentum and it had reached a critical stage where Indian military was going to lose and Kashmir was going to fall into the hands of the Jihadist mission.

Unfortunately for Pakistan 9/11 happened. Al Qaeda started global Jihad and everything changed. Pakistan was caught off guard and had to hurry in and protect its assets and interests before the truth becomes evident. They had to slow down their operations in Kashmir as the war intensified in Afghanistan. By 2007, Kashmir had become quiet. And once Obama came aboard, Pakistan has been at the receiving end of the blow back.

But Kashmir has changed. The current generation grew up watching the horror of insurgency and counter insurgency. They have been successfully alienated. To them the Indian military looks like an invading force. See the parallel in Afghanistan. The Americans are now looked at as foreign occupiers. Another generation of Afghans is growing up watching this scenario.

For India, it will take the next generation of Kashmiris to cool things down. The current generation hates everyone around. Indian security forces need training in treating people in a humane way. In fact all security forces across the world need this training. Even if Kashmir goes, I’d like them to go with goodwill. It has been destroyed there by the efforts of Pak army. It has to be undone first before any settlement is sought. Otherwise we are looking at another Pakistan in the neighborhood. We don’t need two.

Pakistan wants Kashmir conflict alive. It wants to use this conflict to create more inside India. They have tried hard to trigger India into retaliating. Only in Kargil India retaliated. Pak army has gone rogue. Even now Kayani wants India to be considered as the main enemy, despite the fact that his country is burning. Such is their perspective.

We must be careful not to fall for any settlements with them without knowing the true intentions. Just like I want to see smaller Islamic states instead of one Pakistan, they’d like to see smaller Indian countries instead of one big nation. The feelings are mutual. They want to be one nation at all costs, but they do want India to splinter up. So let us not fool ourselves into playing wise men here. True intentions are clear and visible. Unless Pakistani army is forced to change those intentions, nothing will settle between India and Pakistan.

Posted by KPSingh01 | Report as abusive

Mortal:
“You need to get your thoughts together & figure out if you want be belligerant or concilliatory because you can’t be both.”

-For a dubious country like India which is biding its time and continues to hold on to Kashmir, does not want to sincerely address the dispute. There can be no one clear way to tackle the situation, Pakistan has to resort to all possible means. And as if India is not already engaged in creating trouble in Baluchistan?

” India has the means & resources to ignite Pakistan & set it ablaze within no time.”

-Having the means and resources is one thing, having the will to go ahead is another. And you know very well Pakistan can defend itself in a number of ways. BTW some of it is already happening in Afghanistan, both countries compete there to curtail each other’s influence.

I do not think Pakistan needs to resort to proxy war in Kashmir, over a period of time things will ignite there on their own. The population there has a seething anger beneath them. You don’t know you are playing with fire here, its disputes like Kashmir that gives a reason for militant groups to exist. The longer this problem is left unresolved the harder it gets to get out of it.

Posted by Umairpk | Report as abusive

KP:” I want to see smaller Islamic states instead of one Pakistan”

-See, here in lies the problem. Even with a 7th largest Army holding the worlds fastest growing nuclear arsenal you think you can further break up Pakistan. So India has all the right to keep posing an existential threat to Pakistan’s very existence and Pakistan should not even resort to low intensity conflict? It is stupidity to think like this.

Posted by Umairpk | Report as abusive

KP:”I don’t think you were in this forum when Umair mentioned that intention – to avenge the secession of East Pakistan.”

-In my view East Pakistan was avenged on 28 May 1998 the day when Pakistan became a nuclear power. Now you are on the record of stating repeatedly overtime that Pakistan should be broken up further. Let me simply draw your attention to Pakistan’s nuclear doctrine. In case an existential threat is posed to Pakistan, nuclear wepaons can be used. Your thinking is not just idiotic but suicidal and not based on reality on ground.

Posted by Umairpk | Report as abusive

@Umair

“Let me simply draw your attention to Pakistan’s nuclear doctrine. In case an existential threat is posed to Pakistan, nuclear wepaons can be used. Your thinking is not just idiotic but suicidal and not based on reality on ground.”

***Umair, I am trying to connect this back to a long post I wrote to you since you asked me to convince you that India is not an existential threat to Pakistan. Among other reasons, one reason is what you mentioned above (nukes; immaterial of the nuke doctrine). In reply to my post, you did not say that I was able to convince you or not but escaped the discussion by telling me that ISI has put India has threat#2 and extremism as threat#1. If you disagree with me, at least tell me why. Let us be frank here. No one here is PM/President of Pakistan or India, you cannot start proxy war in kashmir with a statement nor can I break Pakistan in pieces even if I say anything like that. At least we can have a logical discussion.

I also feel that you blow hot and cold about issues. You want peace and solution but propose proxy war run by your “PA bad boys”, you want prosperity of a common Pakistani and stability internally in Pakistan, but don’t see that funding proxy wars or Kargil type ops will not help that. Use of distorted Jihad will not help Pakistan.

Ganesh asked a valid question to you on Kashmir contradiction.

Posted by rehmat | Report as abusive

Umairpk: “Even with a 7th largest Army holding the worlds fastest growing nuclear arsenal you think you can further break up Pakistan.”

No one can break Pakistan up using military means. If Pakistan had acted as a responsible and well behaved nation, no one will think of any solutions or strategies against it. You know very well that Pakistan has been on a mission to take on India right from 1948. Every conflict with India has been instigated by Pakistan. If you keep throwing stones into your neighbor’s house and he comes out with a stick to beat you up, you cannot call your neighbor as someone threatening your life. East Pakistan’s separation was a whack with the stick for throwing stones at our house. Your country has not learned from it. Now that it managed to steal in an AK 47 (read as Nukes), you feel suddenly secure and have decided to taunt your neighbor again using stone throwing (read as state sponsored insurgency).

The break up Pakistan happened on its own in 1971. India capitalized on it because Pakistan had been the aggressor before and there was a potential for aggressive moves in the future from both sides of India. If India did not make the geo-strategic move in 1971, by now it would have lost all of North Eastern part, and the neighboring states would have burned. India is still country because of cutting up Pakistan in 1971. If Pakistan had acted as a good neighbor right from the start, there would have been no need to think along that line. India is not looking at its other neighbors the way it does in the case of Pakistan. This is because they have accepted India as their neighbor and are living their lives. Pakistan never had a life other than to take on India. If Pakistan had not tried to play beyond its size and capability, none of what we see today will be happening. It is time for some introspection on your part.

If Pakistan breaks up on its own, it will be good for India. But we are not intending to push anything in that direction. If you set fire to your own hat, there is no need for us to do anything. But if you do, it does benefit us. Sorry, but that is my thinking.

“So India has all the right to keep posing an existential threat to Pakistan’s very existence and Pakistan should not even resort to low intensity conflict? It is stupidity to think like this.”

Actually it is Pakistan that has been an existential threat to India. Pakistan has made many attempts and has been burnt in the bargain. But you cannot call that as a threat from India. Your country has tried to play big regional super power right from the start. This attitude has been further skewed by contempt and arrogance. You lost East Pakistan due to contempt and nothing else. Your country has taken on India because of the same reason. We have no interest in Pakistan other than to keep a cautious watch towards the developments in Af-Pak. A strong and stable Pakistan has not materialized over the past 6 decades, when factors were much more favorable than now. It has been a steady decline on all fronts. Therefore a strong and stable Pakistan is a Utopian idea. Those who say that they’d like to see a stable Pakistan are being diplomatic. That’s all.

Your country was founded on false ideology and in order to keep your country alive, you have needed an external enemy and constant engagement in one war on another. If your enemy disappears, you will fall apart. There has been no attempt made to unify people through education, economic progress and well being. This constant propping up of an external enemy (India, USA, Israel etc) and focus on issues not relevant for your country’s progress (Kashmir, Khalistan, Afghanistan, Taliban, nuclear proliferation etc), your country has dug a deep hole for itself.

Chest thumping will not help resolve the issues your country has. Most of your political leaders are living in UK. Karachi, the commercial capital is turning into a war zone. You cannot spring back or pull it off when you neck deep into the hole.

Posted by KPSingh01 | Report as abusive

Umairpk: “In my view East Pakistan was avenged on 28 May 1998 the day when Pakistan became a nuclear power. Now you are on the record of stating repeatedly overtime that Pakistan should be broken up further. Let me simply draw your attention to Pakistan’s nuclear doctrine. In case an existential threat is posed to Pakistan, nuclear wepaons can be used. Your thinking is not just idiotic but suicidal and not based on reality on ground.”

Your nuclear quest started much before 1971. I do not see the logic of avenging East Pakistan by buying a new shirt. You have stated yourself in the past that Kashmir conflict was to settle scores for East Pakistan. I can go in and dig that up for you if you want. Now you are singing a different tune.

Your nukes do not frighten us. Therefore you need to come up with some other scare crow tactics. Your nukes will not protect your country from falling apart due to internal crisis. They are only increasing by the day. I am sure your generals are praying that Obama does not come back to power in 2012. If he does, your country is going to boil more. He knows that peace in Afghanistan can be achieved only if Pakistan is corrected. He has put pressure on your country and it is manifesting as suicide blasts and sectarian violence. Drone attacks have only intensified. Your mighty, nuclear armed military is sitting there doing nothing about it. They are using your air fields to launch the drones. That says how valorous and courageous your military is. Let me see if they have the guts to knock down those drones with their fighter planes.

Posted by KPSingh01 | Report as abusive

Ganesh:
“4. I honestly don’t understand why Pakistan keeps talking about Kashmir, unless one believes Kashmir belongs to Pakistan. But then we also talk about the right of the Kashmiris to self-determination and the need for a plebiscite. Well, the closest thing to a plebiscite has in fact already been held (the Chatham House survey), and it says the overwhelming majority of Kashmiris want independence and don’t want to join either India or Pakistan.”

-Ganesh/Rehmat, ofcourse Pakistan does not view Kashmir as an integral part of India. At best Kashmir is defined as a disputed territory. In the above propsed Musharraf solution Pakistan never demanded Kashmir to be handed over and made a part of Pakistan. There has to be a give and take on both sides.

KPSingh
useless arguing with you, if you are among those people who call Jinnah a crook I will call Gandhi an elite racist. If you state Pakistan must be dismembered, it already points out to your open hatred towards Pakistan. India’s ‘strategic move’ in 1971 (in your words) can be termed a foolish mistake. Today India can even retaliate against a nuclear armed Pakistan.

As stated, the keyword here is give-and-take and co-existence, all the rest is just talk.

Posted by Umairpk | Report as abusive

PS
* Today India can NOT even retaliate against a nuclear armed Pakistan.

Posted by Umairpk | Report as abusive

KP
“If Pakistan breaks up on its own, it will be good for India.”

-When a country implodes, its the immediate neighbour who gets f*cked up the most. We saw it in the case of Afghanistan back in the 80s, when the situation there affected Pakistan. If this is what you want be prepared for it and without going into much detail I can tell you India will be f*cked up pretty badly in this scenario.

Posted by Umairpk | Report as abusive

Umair said:

> So India has all the right to keep posing an existential threat to Pakistan’s very existence and Pakistan should not even resort to low intensity conflict?

You’re mixing up cause and effect. As many people here have repeatedly said, no Indian would be talking about breaking up Pakistan if it had been a friendly country. This is more by way of trying to reduce the threat that Pakistan has been posing (more of a nuisance than a threat, really) by taking it apart and reducing its ability to create mischief in future. The strategy works, because Bangladesh hasn’t created problems (at least not on this scale) since 1971.

You periodically come back to the point that we can all be prosperous together. I’m glad you do focus on that goal, but for that to happen, this cycle of mutual suspicion and defensiveness have to end. Each side will keep saying “You first”, because we have different perceptions of cause and effect. What the Indians are saying is that Pakistan’s constant focus on getting Kashmir and its various hostile strategies to acquire it is the cause. Indian hostility to Pakistan is the effect. India did not start off being hostile. If Pakistan decides to stop its hostile acts (it doesn’t have to drop its demands over Kashmir, by the way), then India and Indians will have no reason to want the breakup of Pakistan. In fact, it should be surprising to you that Indians express the desire for Pakistan to recover and become strong and prosperous even in the current hostile situation.

There’s goodwill that can be tapped, but we need to break the cycle. To break the cycle, we have to identify the cause as opposed to the effect, and to stop that. The cause is Pakistani willingness to use violence in pursuit of their Kashmir dream (or maybe it’s something beyond even Kashmir). Unless Pakistan agrees to give up violent means in its dealings, you cannot expect Indians to have a benign and forgiving attitude.

Don’t confuse giving up violence to giving up the Kashmir claim. You can continue to demand Kashmir in every peaceful way. If the demand is legitimate and the Kashmiri people want it too, then it will eventually happen. But it cannot happen in a hostile environment. Remember the story of the Sun and the Wind, and who was ultimately successful in the bet to remove the farmer’s coat.

Regards,
Ganesh Prasad

Posted by prasadgc | Report as abusive

I forgot to add – Violent means often work in the real world…provided you are the stronger power.

In the current context, Pakistan is the weaker power, and getting economically weaker, which translates to getting militarily weaker over a period of time. As Gen Kayani has finally realised, economic strength is true strategic depth, not Afghanistan. Pakistan neglected the economy in favour of geographical strategic depth, and now the results are there to see.

So it’s not just on grounds of principle. India can defend Kashmir indefinitely, just like China keeps Tibet in spite of the Tibetans’ will to be free. None of these hostile tactics will work, and the effort will bankrupt Pakistan.

Pakistan needs to give up violent means. That’s the only way out of this impasse.

Regards,
Ganesh Prasad

Posted by prasadgc | Report as abusive

Umair said:

> -Ganesh/Rehmat, ofcourse Pakistan does not view Kashmir as an integral part of India. At best Kashmir is defined as a disputed territory. In the above propsed Musharraf solution Pakistan never demanded Kashmir to be handed over and made a part of Pakistan. There has to be a give and take on both sides.

This still doesn’t make sense. If Kashmir is “disputed”, between whom is the dispute? The Kashmiris (at least the ones still in the territory and not driven out) are saying they don’t want to be part of either country. So what is Pakistan’s locus standi? It’s not as if they love you, so why do you keep arguing their case?

The self-respecting thing for Pakistan to do would be to say to the Kashmiris, “OK, so you don’t want to join us either? Then why should we support you in your quest to be free of India? Fight your own battle!”

There’s really something else, isn’t there? Pakistan is pretending to support the Kashmiri desire, then once Kashmir is free of India, it’s going to be swallowed up by Pakistan, never mind what the Kashmiris want. That’s the only scheme that explains Pakistan’s current stance. Do you see what I’m saying? You still haven’t addressed the contradiction.

Regards,
Ganesh Prasad

Posted by prasadgc | Report as abusive

Umairpk: “When a country implodes, its the immediate neighbour who gets f*cked up the most.”

Not necessarily. It depends upon how strong and big the neighbor is. India has taken the brunt of organized and controlled insurgency by Pakistan for 20 years and at the end it is Pakistan that is lying flat. India has handled a number of internal insurgencies at the same time and still making economic progress. Afghanistan fell to rubble and it affected Pakistan because Pakistan was mixed in all the way up to its neck in Afghan affairs. And it has no economic strength to sustain itself while messing around in conflicts.

If Pakistan falls into chaos (for the sake of the ordinary people there, I wish this does not happen), the elements will have no time to look outside at others as they will be busy tearing each others’ dress. When Yugoslavia burned Turkey, Austria etc did not burn. They stayed put.

Your military is the real villain. It is controlling you and everything in the Af-Pak region. If there is any hope for your nation, it has come from the destruction of your military. It is not protecting your nation. It is using your nation as a sand bag to duck and hide from bullets.

Posted by KPSingh01 | Report as abusive

Umair,

It’s very difficult to have a constructive debate with you when there are so many contradictions & discrepancies in your comments.

You say “And as if India is not already engaged in creating trouble in Baluchistan?” AND then in the same context (India breaking Pakistan) you also say “Having the means and resources is one thing, having the will to go ahead is another.”

I’m confused, so which one is it, Is India creating trouble in Pakistan or does it not have the will to create trouble in Pakistan?

@”I do not think Pakistan needs to resort to proxy war in Kashmir, over a period of time things will ignite there on their own. The population there has a seething anger beneath them.”

Again, that’s why I said that India needs to take measures to bring peace & prosperity in Kashmir. To which you responded with “the bad boys of PA will spoil your party with another proxy war”. So, in other words you don’t want Kashmir to be peaceful unless it’s a part of Pakistan? So why all the hypocricy & crocodile tears for the Kashmiris?

Posted by Mortal1 | Report as abusive

Umair,

It’s very difficult to have a constructive debate with you when there are so many contradictions & discrepancies in your comments.

You say “And as if India is not already engaged in creating trouble in Baluchistan?” AND then in the same context (India breaking Pakistan) you also say “Having the means and resources is one thing, having the will to go ahead is another.”

I’m confused, so which one is it, Is India creating trouble in Pakistan or does it not have the will to create trouble in Pakistan?

@”I do not think Pakistan needs to resort to proxy war in Kashmir, over a period of time things will ignite there on their own. The population there has a seething anger beneath them.”

Again, that’s why I said that India needs to take measures to bring peace & prosperity in Kashmir. To which you responded with “the bad boys of PA will spoil your party with another proxy war”. So, in other words you don’t want Kashmir to be peaceful unless it’s a part of Pakistan? So why all the hypocricy & crocodile tears for the Kashmiris?

Posted by Mortal1 | Report as abusive

@”I heard Pakistan sent a delegation to china to speed up the indian balkanisation process and Bangladash is already on board.” Posted by babag

The delusional bum, who lives in the gutters of my subway station & eats filth all day long, also heard the same thing. Since you guys have the same source, I assume you must have a lot in common :)

Posted by Mortal1 | Report as abusive

Mortal1,

Do not feed the troll.

Regards,
Ganesh Prasad

Posted by prasadgc | Report as abusive

BTW, the delegations which Pakistan sends anywhere these days have just one purpose: Ask for money!
There was one here in the US a few days ago, headed by your President. He asked for a loan but was politely turned down.

Posted by Mortal1 | Report as abusive

Here Umair, another one of your “non-state actors”

http://www.dawn.com/2011/01/22/uk-judge- approves-us-extradition-of-terror-suspec t.html

(Did you say the other day that sikhs have taken their violent ways to other countries?)

Posted by Mortal1 | Report as abusive

Interesting perspectives from a Kashmiri from PoK:

http://drshabirchoudhry.blogspot.com/

Posted by Mortal1 | Report as abusive

Maybe the Monguls will save the region from its present version of the Slave Dynasty of Delhi.

Posted by ROWnine | Report as abusive

Mortal

Cool down. The other day I also posted a link from Guardian exposing the hindu terrorist Swami aseemanand. Soon Pakistan will demand the extradition of all terrorists invloved in killing of Pakistani passengers onboard the train. Seems nothing changed since 1947.

Babag:
” I heard Pakistan sent a delegation to china to speed up the indian balkanisation process and Bangladash is already on board.”

-Well, the Chinese consider Pakistan most important ally in their ‘strings of pearl’ strategy. Not only Bangladesh, but Sri Lanka, Myanmar, Nepal, South china sea shore pretty much everyone is onboard.

Posted by Umairpk | Report as abusive

@Umair: I’m always cool, man!

@ROWnine: Hey, what’s a mongul? some kind of a dog breed, I don’t know about?

Posted by Mortal1 | Report as abusive

Umair,
I opened the blog and the second comment posted was:

” The only way Kashmir can be settled in today’s context will be by neutralizing Pakistan’s threat to the region by liberating Balochistan, Pashunistan and Sindh. A reduced Pakistan is needed before Kashmir equation can be looked at.”
I say solution lies in balkanisation of India. You have been ‘playing flute in front cow’ for a long time. Did this had any effect? Patriotic guy like you should be spending time in organising people like yourself and doing nation building work. These people are not your well wishers.

Posted by babag | Report as abusive

Umairpk: “Seems nothing changed since 1947.”

That was the purpose. It is called stalemate. You put the tail of one snake into the mouth of the other. Then you take the tail of the second snake and put it into the mouth of the first one. The two try to swallow each other and never make it. On top of that, they get tangled. Do you realize at least now why Pakistan was separated out of independent India? To keep the divide permanent. If you look into history of the sub-continent prior to the campaign by Jinnah, there was absolutely no clash between the common Hindus and Muslims. Massacres of that kind between the two communities did not happen. Muslim Sultans ruled many parts of the region with Hindu princes in their courts. And vice versa. They formed alliances and ran campaigns. But it was never based on religion.

The British had reduced Muslim power to naught after the Sepoy Mutiny. So they suddenly propped up the importance of Muslims being dominated by non-Muslims. Opportunistic politicians are aplenty. Each one takes up a cause and runs his campaign – some become Robin Hoods for the poor, some form communist leaders, some become union leaders, some become champions of a particular sect and so on. The British knew how to use these leaders to their advantage and keep the various factions directed at each other and away from themselves.

The British were pissed at Gandhi and his followers for their campaign for an independent India. If India went, their empire would not exist for long. WW II was taking their attention away from their colonies. They still believed that they would be a world super power after WW II. So they were concerned about Russians expanding into South Asia in their absence. If they had conquered Afghanistan, they would have felt secure. But they ran out of time. The next best option was to create a nation that would align with their interests and keep the Russians from aligning with the independent India. So they encouraged and propped up Jinnah. When it was realized that the common public had no interest in partitioning on religious lines, they allowed Jinnah to resort to violence as a means to create permanent divide. They did nothing to stem the violence.

They knew Jinnah was dying. So they hurried into granting independence. Indian Congress leaders asked for a delayed and phased independence.

Both India and Pakistan had British military commanders at the time of partition. Kashmir conflict was created to keep the two locked in perpetual dead lock.

Pakistan on the outside looks like a nation created to protect Muslims from Hindus. The real reason is geo-strategic in nature. The British ruled the whole world using such schemes.

The reason why Pakistan could not settle down as a democratic and secular nation and became a military dominated nation is because it was never allowed to by these powers. They encouraged the military leaders and started interfering in Pakistan’s internal politics. US simply replaced UK as the next power and continued with the same campaign.

In 1989, the objective of creating Pakistan was achieved. After that it was abandoned. Now the same powers are sitting on the opposite side of Pakistan and letting it burn.

You must see through everything to understand the reality. We are all puppets that have been manipulated. Your generals are playing into their hands and have kept the people divided. Jinnah was their agent. And so are your generals.

India survived because Nehru understood the reasons and campaigned hard for non-aligned movement. If India had taken sides like Pakistan did, it would have had no democracy. Coups would have happened and India would have disappeared.

Posted by KPSingh01 | Report as abusive

Umair,
I opened the blog and the second comment posted was:

” The only way Kashmir can be settled in today’s context will be by neutralizing Pakistan’s threat to the region by liberating Balochistan, Pashunistan and Sindh. A reduced Pakistan is needed before Kashmir equation can be looked at.”
You have been ‘playing flute in front cow’ for a long time. Did this had any effect? Patriotic guy like you should be spending time in organising people like yourself and doing nation building work. These people are not our well wishers.

Posted by babag | Report as abusive

I haven’t been here for a while.

See the same empty bravado by Umairpk, meanwhile pakistan has gone down further…and keeps going down and down..

Nuclear weapons will not prevent you from internal anarchy and economic collapse….It is also hilarious to see Umairpk’s comments to the effect paks are resilient, etc. I see this from other blogs as well. Pakistan is intact still because it has been kept alive by USA through billions of dollars year after year.

p.s
Liar Musharaff’s delusional ramblings should not be taken too seriously…

Posted by netizen | Report as abusive

babag”You have been ‘playing flute in front cow’ for a long time. Did this had any effect? Patriotic guy like you should be spending time in organising people like yourself and doing nation building work. These people are not our well wishers”

-I agree with you, ‘bhens ke aage been bajana’ results in nothing, I would follow your advice moving forward and not be wasting much of time. It is better to organize ourselves and devote our energies for nation building and let some of the dogs bark. It will make no difference to us.

Posted by Umairpk | Report as abusive

> These people are not our well wishers

What a pity. One should learn to distinguish between malice, anger born of frustration, constructive criticism, etc., and not view every confronting statement as evil. If one only associates with people who think the same way, what more will we ever learn? Speaking for myself, I try to look beyond heated statements and try to understand sentiments of people on the other side of the border. I think I get a good sense of how other human beings think, even if I don’t always agree. It is an enriching experience for me. Withdrawing from discussion may yield immediate comfort, but puts a stop to understanding (if that is the goal).

Remember, we’re not officials and do not change policy. We’re here to understand. It’s not about countries. Countries form a certain context. It’s about human beings.

I suspect that one day, peace will break out (due to forces of history if nothing else), and all the hateful rhetoric will dissolve into sheepish grins. Why be embarrassed when that happens? Prepare for it now.

Regards,
Ganesh Prasad

Posted by prasadgc | Report as abusive

From my experience on this blog, the psyche of most Pakistanis has been damaged beyond repair. Finger pointing & chest thumping has been etched in their concience & is their answer for most of their problems. They’ve been taught to hate India & Indians from birth, which is reinforced everyday in their classrooms, at home, via their media etc. and now that India is progressing rapidly while their own country is going in the other direction, their animosity, envy & paranoia are reaching newer hights. I know I’m being pessimistic but I’m afraid peace between India & Pakistan seems quite far-fetched at this time.

Posted by Mortal1 | Report as abusive

GANESH:”I suspect that one day, peace will break out (due to forces of history if nothing else), and all the hateful rhetoric will dissolve into sheepish grins.”

-Hope so, same here and I had some good discussions with you previously. hopefully we keep the communication open. But i will not engage in tit for tat responses. Only positive comments and engage in constructive discussion. I will ignore unneccessary foolish comments.

Posted by Umairpk | Report as abusive

Umair,
I’ll be in Islamabad in a few months, would like to meet you?

Posted by babag | Report as abusive

babag:

-Sure,welcome you can drop me an email, umairmalik_pk at yahoo dot com. When you come we’ll meet InshAllah.

Posted by Umairpk | Report as abusive

@Umair

“Ganesh/Rehmat, ofcourse Pakistan does not view Kashmir as an integral part of India. At best Kashmir is defined as a disputed territory. In the above propsed Musharraf solution Pakistan never demanded Kashmir to be handed over and made a part of Pakistan. There has to be a give and take on both sides.”

*** I have seen common Pakistanis singing a different song than you mentioned above. They all say Kashmir must be handed over to Pakistan since it is Muslim majority place. I disagree with you what your politicians say. Can you defeat the contradiction between self-determination for Kashmiris (Pakistani politicians and you say that) and ban by Pakistan on a Kashmiri political party in AJK that disagrees with “Kashmir banega Kashmir”.

So where are we now?

Posted by rehmat | Report as abusive

Throughout their history the Kashmiri people have remained non violent people. The least these people deserve is the right to decide their own future in a democracy. How much accomodating India would be to support democracy for these citizens is going to determine the future of India? Pakistan has no valid card any more to play other than to allow the Kashmiris to unite with their second half living in the Indian occupied territory I say occupied territory since the Indian army moved in at the request of the Sikh Maharaja not the kashmiri people, who under the Brits was ruling this paradise on eath.

The Nehru family opposed the unity on account of pressure from its religious Pundit clergy and Mr Manhohan Singh is the last surviving Sikh leader who is playing to the melody of hindu leaders. Indian governor General at the time, one of the Betanbergs(the friends of Nehru family, not Mr jinnah as Mr KP stated) supported Indian march into Kashmir. History is the evidence that oppressed people have never vanished into oblivion as long as they have the will for survival. Kashmiris do not need con men like Musharaf or Zardari, Singhs or Gillanis but the will for freedom and faith in the almighty God who determines and controls the fate of the mankind.
They got rid of the Brits, the Maharaja and they have been learning long enough to get themself rid of the Indian and Pakistani political elites! I wish them courage.

Rex Minor

Posted by pakistan | Report as abusive

Pakistan: “The least these people deserve is the right to decide their own future in a democracy.”

It is not as simple as that. Kashmiris demand a separate state because they are majority Muslims. It has already been tried in the case of Pakistan and it led to no life in paradise. If Kashmiris demand self determination because they are Kashmiris, then everyone is entitled to demand the same in some name or another. And it will never end. Kashmir was a part of the Magadha empire that stretched from Afghanistan, all the way up to Bengal and way down South. Like China has been doing, one can always quote some historical basis for claiming territories. Europe has united under one union. These were nations that fought each other tooth and nail not long ago. Therefore dividing an already united India further makes no sense. If India had degenerated and self destructed over time, then it makes sense to look at other alternatives. That has not been the case. Pakistan did try its best to prop up the implosion of India and burnt itself in the bargain.

Kashmir is an extremely important geo-strategic region for us. At this time, that is the case. We have extremely hostile neighbors, both nuclear armed and united against us. Letting Kashmir go at this time would be a geo-strategic suicide for us. It has nothing to do with the people there. It is simply geo-politics. India has contained Pakistan in the barren Siachien glacier for the same reason. If Kashmiris hate India so much, they can migrate to other Islamic paradises nearby. We have no problems with that. If the pundits there can be driven out of their homes, I see no issues with Kashmiri Muslims going elsewhere. India is not foolish to give up Kashmir now. Sorry. The case is closed.

“How much accomodating India would be to support democracy for these citizens is going to determine the future of India?”

Kashmiris are not some three eyes, four headed humans that need special status. They have a choice. They can go along with the rest of India like everyone else is doing. Or leave and go elsewhere where their sympathetic brothers are willing to accommodate them and support them. There is nothing different in the handling of Kashmiris versus the rest of Indians. Our Golden temple was laid waste twenty five years ago by the same military. We have moved on. Kashmiris will need to take the same adjustments. India should declare once in for all that Kashmir is its integral part and it is no longer anyone’s business. They are pelting stones and trying to taunt our security forces because they believe that Pakistan can always be relied upon.
We are a democracy and we want people to respect that first. Contempt is not going to be tolerated.

“Pakistan has no valid card any more to play other than to allow the Kashmiris to unite with their second half living in the Indian occupied territory I say occupied territory since the Indian army moved in at the request of the Sikh Maharaja not the kashmiri people, who under the Brits was ruling this paradise on eath.”

Pakistan should cede Azad Kashmir to India and be done with it. There is no law in this world that Muslim majority regions all should join other Muslim majority states. Everyone has equal rights to the resources. I see nothing special for Kashmiris. Let them share their lives with the rest of us. We are all doing fine. India is not going to give up Kashmir because some people who have no idea what democracy is are demanding democratic values from others.

“The Nehru family opposed the unity on account of pressure from its religious Pundit clergy”

This is utter nonsense. Nehru family has just one man – Nehru. And he fought hard for a secular India. He was a Hindu by the accident of birth. There was no religious pundit clergy pulling strings on him. Stop making up stories.

“and Mr Manhohan Singh is the last surviving Sikh leader who is playing to the melody of hindu leaders.”

Sonia Gandhi is a Catholic from Italy. She calls the shots. And not some Hindu leader.

“Indian governor General at the time, one of the Betanbergs(the friends of Nehru family, not Mr jinnah as Mr KP stated) supported Indian march into Kashmir.”

Quote a valid reference. Otherwise it is pure BS.

“History is the evidence that oppressed people have never vanished into oblivion as long as they have the will for survival.”

One thing I find is that whenever Muslims are in a minority they create enough hue and cry about their rights and being oppressed etc. When they are in the majority, the give a rats ass about others’ rights or values. The days of the Arab rulers are over. Welcome to the modern world – everyone needs to drink from the same well. Muslims alone cannot have their way everywhere. if Kashmiris demand rights because they are Muslims, they have plenty already in the secular India. If they do not like it, they can migrate to Saudi Arabia.

“Kashmiris do not need con men like Musharaf or Zardari, Singhs or Gillanis but the will for freedom and faith in the almighty God who determines and controls the fate of the mankind.”

You have never raised any word about the sufferings of Kurdish Muslims at the hands of Turks and Sunni Iraqis. If at all any Muslim community is being oppressed, it is the Kurds. So shed your crocodile tears towards them. Kashmir will be fine so long as people learn to obey the law of the land.

Posted by KPSingh01 | Report as abusive

> You have never raised any word about the sufferings of Kurdish Muslims at the hands of Turks and Sunni Iraqis.

Or about the oppression of the Uighur Muslims by China. That’s another contradiction in the Pakistani position. If one has to show solidarity with oppressed Muslims everywhere, then why not take on the all-weather ally, eh? A discreet silence there…

Regards,
Ganesh Prasad

Posted by prasadgc | Report as abusive

Ganesh: “If one has to show solidarity with oppressed Muslims everywhere, then why not take on the all-weather ally, eh? A discreet silence there…”

It is politics again. They are very selective on what they demand from their foes and what they should not from their allies. That is why all this self determination demand, Muslim oppression cries etc are pure political weapons used by Pakistanis and their supporters. And political demands of this kind should not be entertained. They demanded a nation for themselves and got it. And they need to stop there and go about their business. But they have made it a livelihood to raise campaign against India and have done nothing for themselves. It is always easier to disobey laws, pelt stones, stage strikes, riots etc against an establishment. But it is a very different game when it comes to running an administration. Pakistanis never paid attention to governing. They have chosen the easier path – protest using some cause and treat India like their establishment.

India has done very well in stemming the BJP yatra in Kashmir. Because the motive is purely political to make a gain.

Posted by KPSingh01 | Report as abusive

“and Mr Manhohan Singh is the last surviving Sikh leader who is playing to the melody of hindu leaders.”
Posted by pakistan

Are you so darn backward & narrow minded that you have to look at everything in a religious context? Manmohan Singh is India’s PM, not because he’s a sikh but because of his credentials & party affiliations & as KP pointed, the congress presdient Sonia Gandhi is a Christian. BTW, if you want to go deeper, even the Gandhi family is not hindu, it’s actually zorastrian because Indira Gandhi’s husband, Feroz Gandhi, was a zorastrian.

Posted by Mortal1 | Report as abusive

[...] Musharraf’s Kashmir deal, mirage or oasis? (Jan. 20, [...]

> Are you so darn backward & narrow minded that you have to look at everything in a religious context?

It’s hard for us to understand this mindset. I guess we’ve grown up with pluralism and don’t see everything in terms of religious divisions. It’s probably a way of looking at the world that is ingrained in these folk and very hard to break out of.

Regards,
Ganesh Prasad

Posted by prasadgc | Report as abusive

Ganesh: “It’s hard for us to understand this mindset”

This guy claims to be living in Germany. I am sure he has access to all modern amenities where he can get any reference he wants and educate himself on the issues to broaden his outlook. If he prefers to maintain a cave dweller’s mindset it tells how close minded he has grown up during his formative years. This is an educated guy. If he can be this backward in his views, one can tell how deeply ingrained is the radicalization in Pakistan is. It was started three decades ago and it is beginning to bear fruit. Imagine how many like this are in Pakistan and abroad. One thing I see is a persistent refusal to look outside the box. These guys rely on emotions and feelings more. They prefer what they hear on the streets and mosques and do not want to question anything or go look at the facts for themselves. Ego prevents them from listening to any valid statements by Indians at the same time. Education and living in an open environment has nothing to do with one’s personal attitude and mindset. Once a bigot, always a bigot.

Posted by KPSingh01 | Report as abusive

“It’s hard for us to understand this mindset”

I was going to say what KP said. This guy has been supposedly living in western europe for god knows how long & he claims to be educated, so I find his narrow mindedness quite peculiar. I guess, you can take a mullah out of a cave but can’t take the cave out of the mullah.

Posted by Mortal1 | Report as abusive

@Indian Mob
I recognise that every sixth person in the world is going to be an Indian, but my experience is that you guys swarm immediatey in every blog which is discussion Pakistan, like bees and pounce on a blogger having a different view. In my case you did not even await my reply to KP. I was out of town travelling and, while I was able to read KP’s comments on my IPad, I do not use use the gadget for sending replies.
You guys do not have to make snotty comments about my person, without having the slightest idea about me. stop your guesses, keep yourself concentrated on what I said and not on what I do not say. I know that you guys read a lot but your conclusions would be faulty if you are not careful and make wrong judgement. Even the wikileak founder describes his invention being inaccurate, but you quote them as scriptures, which incidently some of you tend to challenge. You blame the religion and muslim clergy for the revolution which is taking place in muslim countries around the world including Pakistan, following the propaganda broadcasts from the USA media or 5th columnists liberals of Pakistan.
In your country, if one would follow KP, one would consider Indian Sikhs as a dead wood. Sonia Gandhi is not the one who is calling shots, but the majority of Indian people do! You believe in a plurastic democracy but then are not prepared to grant the citizens the right to separate from India, which Indian Govt. occupied by force. In your clever views it would be unwise for Kashmiris to gain their freedom and independence if they so desire. Sudanese christians from south are separating from the Northern Sudan, and even got the blessing in advance of the results from Mr Obama in his speach to the congress. No one knows if seaparation is going to be good for the people or bring disastor in the region. These are the rules of democracy. Pakistan became a separate country on account of its own free will and as of this day Indian Congress party and its Govts. have not managed to swallow the bitter pill, intervened with military in Kashmir and later in Bengal and still clamouring on the border justifying one act after the other, and now even demanding that Pakistan provides security for India. This is the short sighted story of India politics, which is heading for destruction and not for economic growth. The story of muslims is a relatively very simple and straightforward one, their armies have usually gone out of their bunkers(not caves) for destruction and not to conquer the territory. History is the evidence not larifari strategic interests or to create a Islamic mullah controlled State.

The USA or the West always blame religious clergy for the ills of muslim countries because of simple ignorance and lack of knowledge of the Islamic culture, and based on their own experience with clergy and the powerful church.iran is the only muslim country I know of which is controlled by the muslim clergy to withstand the Super power pressure. American persistent intervention into the domestic affairs of others is the source for this resistence.

I have always been on the side of the victims, not the aggressors and I would be the first to condemn violence irrespective of the faith ofg the people. I would be prepared to condemn muslims who commit violence against civilians particularly non muslim ones, wheather it happens in Pakistan, Egypt or Sudan. This does not mean that muslims are entititled for resistance.

Islam means peace and those who commit violence against muslims or non muslims are no more than ordinary criminals, breaking the basic tenets of humanity and Islamic, christian and jewish teachings. I do not have the slightest idea of Hindu and Sikh religions. And I am reluctant to learn from the rants of KP or sikhs being told by their Gurus to wander around in army, O’k now they do it for symbolic purpose in Europe. Incidently there is nothing in Islamic religion about the dress as long as one wears a dress and covers one genitals!

So stop your rudeness which simply reflects your lack of education and upbringing! If you have the ability to learn then you have the opportunty to learn even as far away as in the Kangaroo land or the land of lumber jacks!

Rex Minor

Posted by pakistan | Report as abusive

PS
CORRECTION
1) This does not mean that muslims are ‘NOT’ entitled for resistance.

2) Sikhs being told by their Gurus to wande around in ‘ARMS’.

Note: It is considererd in most world cultures when you address each other on this blog and discuus the third person. And do not tell me that this is normal in indian culture. This is simply a ‘mob’ culture. Try to present yourself as a cultured person from India, if you must.

Rex Minor

Posted by pakistan | Report as abusive

@Rex
Can you for once stop thinking about India-Pakistan conflict as Hindu-Muslim conflict and view it just as territory dispute between any two normal countries?? Try it.

Try to present yourself as a open minded person from Germany, if you must.

Posted by 777xxx777 | Report as abusive

@”I recognise that every sixth person in the world is going to be an Indian, but my experience is that you guys swarm immediatey in every blog which is discussion Pakistan” Posted by pakistan

We (Indians) have many valid reasons to be concerned about pakistan & have an interest in that country but may I ask why the heck are you floating around in numerous Pakistan related blogs, since you claim to be a non-Pakistani & not even from the region?

@”keep yourself concentrated on what I said and not on what I do not say. I know that you guys read a lot but your conclusions would be faulty if you are not careful and make wrong judgement.”

Our judgment about you is based on what you have said on this blog. Most of your comments have religious undertones & you identify & judge most individuals by their religion. For you an individual is a jew, hindu, sikh, christian etc. before anything else and if he/she is especially a jew, you are quick to pass a negative judgment on that person. Your bigotry is not lost on anyone.

@”I have always been on the side of the victims, not the aggressors and I would be the first to condemn violence irrespective of the faith ofg the people.”

From your comments, it’s clear that you are ONLY on the side of muslims, irrespective of whether they are the agressors or victims. I have yet to see you comdemn islamic terrorism because based on your thinking, a muslim is always a victim, even if he blows up a building with 500 innocent civilians in it.

@”Sikhs being told by their Gurus to wande around in ‘ARMS’”

Carrying the ‘ARM’ or a kirpan (miniauture sword) is actually nothing more than symbolism. It’s injunction was introduced about 300 yrs ago by the last sikh guru, in order to protect the weak against tyranny & slavery of the mughal invaders. BUT I agree that in this day & age, carrying it is meaningless. Personally, I have never carried it & I don’t know of many people who do (especially my generation or even the previous one). Ideally, the scriptures & texts of all religions should be updated to reflect the current period but obviously that is not the case.

Posted by Mortal1 | Report as abusive

@”You believe in a plurastic democracy but then are not prepared to grant the citizens the right to separate from India, which Indian Govt. occupied by force. In your clever views it would be unwise for Kashmiris to gain their freedom and independence if they so desire.”

There are many democracies in the world & none of them take polls in their states/provinces to secede from the union. The US has 50 states & the people living in all those states have the right to chose their leaders & repesentatives but they do not have the right to start a secessionist movement. Same goes for the citizens of UK, France, Germany, Japan and many other countries. Kashmiris in India also have democracy like the rest of the Indians. They are free to elect their leaders & representatives in fair & free elections held there (which they did in the last elections) but they will not be given the right to secede from the Union of India because no Indian state has that right. For all their crocodile tears, even Pakistan will not allow their part of kashmir to secede from their republic. In fact all elected leaders of PoK are required to pledge allegience to the Pakistani state before assuming office & if they don’t, they are barred from official capacity.

Posted by Mortal1 | Report as abusive

Mortal:”We (Indians) have many valid reasons to be concerned about pakistan & have an interest in that country”

-Could you please define the precise interest you Indians have in Pakistan? can you please elaborate on this statement of yours because something does not seem right? I want to know what is your interest? do you want Pakistan to be a failed state? do you want to destroy Pakistan? what is your obsession. There has to be a reason why it is only Indians who come on this blog and comment frequently. Feel free to let your thoughts known, I am not an ISI analyst.

PS
just as Pakistan has an interest in Afghanistan, to see a stable and neutral Afghan not necessarily allied with Islamabad but atleast not aggressive towards Islamabad and one which does not collaborate with our Eastern neighbour and push us towards ‘strategic encirclement’. Do you have some similar interest in Pakistan? to see a stable and prosperous Pakistan not endangering India’s domestic security? or is it something else. Because an interest can also be defined as stoking insurgency in Baluchistan. I want to know this ‘interest’. Or prove me I am being paranoid. would appreciate a valid comprehensive response. Thx

Posted by Umairpk | Report as abusive

[...] the rest here: Musharraf’s Kashmir deal, mirage or oasis? Posted in Global News Journal Tags: afghanistan, former-pakistan, india, indian, indian-prime, [...]

Pakistan: “Sonia Gandhi is not the one who is calling shots, but the majority of Indian people do!”

But you said Manmohan Singh is controlled by Hindu leaders. Let me quote you here: “Mr Manhohan Singh is the last surviving Sikh leader who is playing to the melody of hindu leaders”

If the majority of the Indian people call the shots, where did you come up with your analysis that Hindu leaders are playing the melody? Which Hindu leaders? Since you seem to know more, can you tell me who they are? And what makes Man Mohan Singh the last surviving Sikh leader? Did the others get killed off? Your world view seems to be very narrow and you are lecturing others to follow your myopic guidelines.

“You believe in a plurastic democracy but then are not prepared to grant the citizens the right to separate from India, which Indian Govt. occupied by force.”

Pluralistic democracy is meant for electing leaders periodically to govern the nation. It is not meant for facilitating self destruction by secession. Indian government has not occupied the place by force. It sent in the security forces to contain and eliminate Islamic insurgency launched by Pakistan in 1989. We have said this to you many times and you are proving to us that you are not only blind, but also deaf. It would be great if you are mute as well.

“In your clever views it would be unwise for Kashmiris to gain their freedom and independence if they so desire”

What Kashmiris have is frustration built up over their place turning into a war zone between Pakistan launched militants and Indian security forces. They cannot do anything to the criminals sent in by Pakistan. So they are taking it out on our brave soldiers who have lost many in their ranks to the bullets of insurgents. We have made our sacrifices and they are not for nothing. If peace prevails in Kashmir, economy will revive and people will get to live. That’s all they want. And we are working on that. India has sent in a fact finding mission and we are waiting for their recommendations. But we are not even discussing independence to anyone at this time. So please sit in Germany and cool your rear end with some ice blocks.

“Sudanese christians from south are separating from the Northern Sudan, and even got the blessing in advance of the results from Mr Obama in his speach to the congress.”

Do you realize that they are seceding from a Muslim majority North? That must tell something. And Sudan is a not a pluralistic, multi-cultural democratic nation that is a respected member of the world community. The cases are totally different and you are equating apples to oranges.

“No one knows if seaparation is going to be good for the people or bring disastor in the region.”

We have to learn from history. Those who do not are bound to repeat the same mistakes. Pakistan separated in the name of religion. I do not have to mention its current status. We will not allow Kashmir to separate in the name of religion. I have already explained the geo-strategic nature of the region before. The reason why Pakistan is unwilling to let go of its grip on the Taliban and militant groups is the same – geo-strategic plans. These elements are the ones that Pakistan is hoping on to bring into Afghanistan after the US leaves and reduce India’s influence there.

“These are the rules of democracy.”

Looks like you have a very limited experience with it. You are the guy who pretended not to know anything about East Pakistan genocide right? You made a half hearted acknowledgment after Rehmat gave you some facts. Did you know that your wonderful nation Pakistan did not acknowledge the democratic election of Sheikh Mujibur Rehman to Presidency? Did you know that it was because he was a Bengali? Go read up more and you will know you do not deserve to lecture us about democracy.

“Pakistan became a separate country on account of its own free will”

No it did not. Do not propagate lies. Pakistan was formed by instigating violence against non-Muslims and by using the retaliation to alienate Muslims and drive them towards Pakistan. And Pakistan was formed for a geo-strategic reason by the British colonial empire. When the free will of the Muslims was sought by vote, Pakistan’s proposal was rejected by an overwhelming 65% of the Muslim population.

“and as of this day Indian Congress party and its Govts. have not managed to swallow the bitter pill, intervened with military in Kashmir”

You are repeating the same lies over and over again. We have given enough references and have tried to enlighten you on many occasions that India did not invade Kashmir. It was done by the tribals launched by Pakistan. It was India which took the case to UN. It was Pakistan that refused to obey the UN resolution. India and Pakistan had the Simla accord in 1972 which replaced the 1948 UN resolutions. Pakistanis and their supporters have conveniently ignored all facts. Mass repetition of lies will not change the facts.

“and later in Bengal and still clamouring on the border justifying one act after the other,”

Did you know that 10 million Bengalis flooded India because of Pak army launched genocide in East Pakistan? Are you choosing to ignore that truth? India had to intervene in East Pakistan. If India was an imperial power like you are projecting, it would have annexed East Pakistan in 1971. The fact that we did not shows that ours was an honorable intervention that stopped barbarism.

“and now even demanding that Pakistan provides security for India.”

Where did you come up with this one? Can you provide some news paper article at least to substantiate your asinine claims?

“This is the short sighted story of India politics,”

Short sighted story all right. That is the appropriate phrase for your words here.

“which is heading for destruction and not for economic growth.”

We know you are burning inside with jealousy. But unfortunately for you, things are going the other way. Sorry if it hurts.

“The story of muslims is a relatively very simple and straightforward one, their armies have usually gone out of their bunkers(not caves) for destruction and not to conquer the territory.”

Really? Then tell me how regions that were independent from Spain to Central Asia became Islamic? Have you ever read about Arab conquests? Have you heard of Muhammad Bin Qasim? What would you call him as?

“History is the evidence not larifari strategic interests or to create a Islamic mullah controlled State”

But that is what is going on now.

Posted by KPSingh01 | Report as abusive

@”Could you please define the precise interest you Indians have in Pakistan? can you please elaborate on this statement of yours because something does not seem right? I want to know what is your interest? do you want Pakistan to be a failed state? do you want to destroy Pakistan? what is your obsession.” Posted by Umairp

Personally, I had never visited a Pakistani news site or blog before the Mumbai attacks in Nov 2008 & I suspect there are many Indians/people of Indian origin like me, whose interest in Pakistan peaked after that incident. Prior to Nov 2008, Pakistan was nothing more than nuiscance value for me, due to it’s constant nibbling at India & targeting of innocent indian civilians via state & non-state actors. I admit that initially when I started commenting on this blog, I just wanted to vent my anger but gradually it transformed into a desire to understand the Pakistani perspective & the reasons for their animosity & belligerence towards India & Indians (especially hindus). I have interacted with my Pakistani friends here but most of them are quite liberal since they were either born here or have been out of Pakistan for decades, so I wanted to know the thought process of the average Pakistani in Pakistan.

As for what I want Pakistan to become, I have said it many times that I would like for Pakistan to stabalize, eliminate ALL forms of terrorism (including India-centric groups) and become a progressive & moderate state, with which India has good relations. I don’t want Pakistan to become a failed state because I feel that would destabalize the region & potentially, the world as well. I have no interest in seeing Pakistan break up but I also don’t want to see any more ‘confrontations’ from Pakistan via non-state actors or meddling by Pakistan in India’s affairs & that includes J&K. I want India & Pakistan to build relations & resolve all conflicts/disputes, peacefully & amicably.
(BTW, this is the only Pakistan related blog which I visit & comment on.)

Posted by Mortal1 | Report as abusive

Mortal

Good luck to u, thx for reply. I tried to reason and let u know that Pakistan is just another country facing its share of problems. Just as back in 1980s a war in Afghanistan affected Pakistan, today the situation in Pakistan started to show its affect on India (mumbai 08) Hope for peace. All views expressed here are my personal. we can agree or disagree with each other and engage in debate. I too started to get myself aware of whats happening in Pakistan as i found myself coming back to Pakistan from overseas and I was in the middle of a mess without understanding what was causing it. We both are same, seeking knowledge, you read N.F Paracha etc and like his writing. I can reccomend a few books that can also help u understand the backdrop/history of the some problems Pakistan faces. Got to go for now. short of time.

Posted by Umairpk | Report as abusive

@Umair

“I want to know this ‘interest’. Or prove me I am being paranoid. would appreciate a valid comprehensive response.”

***Umair, valid questions from you. You are a nice guy and in my personal experience you ask these questions and when you get a reply, you do not go through with the discussion. Recall you asked me specifically to convince you why Indian is not an existential threat and I responded. You wrapped it up in one line and stopped the discussion there. That is sad!

Why Indians are interested? I am sad you asked this question.

@Baluchistan question
***If ISI has not been able to give any evidence of Indian involvement in Baluchistan, Indians on these blogs got to be better than ISI to provide you an answer. Rest all is going in circles.

Umair you should accept that your country has a hostile foreign policy towards India. Need you be reminded of the wars that pakistan started? I would think that as minor reason, because today no army can afford to start an all out war. Bigger reason for Indians is that your country manufactures TERRORISTS in the name of ISLAM and sorry to say you are silent supporters of that policy in the name of your “misperceptions”. What is happening in Pakistan is very sad. we can talk of death to “others” on such platforms but when we see an innocent person up close from either side of the border being blown up by these so-called JIHADIS, only a heartless person will stay quiet and not openly condemn these acts. Indians are worried that there are lot of Pakistanis who support a section of terrorists that have been blowing up innocent Indians in the name of religion. So the bigger worry where you and I would agree is that India will be screwed big time if Pakistan goes totally out of control. My personal belief is that Pakistan IS going to stay but unfortunately it will be inhabitable place for free thinking humans for a long time. Remember construction takes more time than destruction. You can do the math that it all started in 1979 which means it took 31years to reach this situation. Making a screeching halt and U-turn and do remedial work will not be complete in your lifetime. I hope you see the positive trend in next few decades. Indians do not want to be screwed by these extremists and worry about the spillover if something bigger happens.

I do not love the “idea of Pakistan” but I have no malice for you common guys and nor do most Indians for their own sake.

Posted by rehmat | Report as abusive

@KPS

“We have said this to you many times and you are proving to us that you are not only blind, but also deaf. It would be great if you are mute as well.”

***Could not stop myself. This one had me rolling.

Posted by rehmat | Report as abusive

Umair,

The reason that I have been interacting with you all this while, is because I think that you are a good guy & I don’t sense the animosity & vengefulness in you, which I have in some others. Yes, we have differences & sometimes we all say things out of emotion, which we don’t intend to but overall, I’ve gotten a positive vibe from you. If a majority of Pakistani youth are like you, I have hope that we can sort out the differences which previous generations weren’t able to. I would also like to add that one other reason that Indians are so interested in Pakistan is because somehow, we feel emotionally attached to you guys. Yes, sometimes that attachment translates into anger & frustration but still, despite everything, we feel like you are our own. Bear in mind that a vast majority of Indians (except a few fringe elements) do not wish harm to Pakistan. Always remember that at the end of the day, no one can or will understand you Pakistanis better than us Indians, not the Chinese or the Arabs & not even the Afghans, Bangladeshis or Sri Lankan. A majority of Indians might not share your religion, but we have a lot more in common than our differences.

Good luck to you as well & be safe!

Posted by Mortal1 | Report as abusive

Rehmat:”when we see an innocent person up close from either side of the border being blown up by these so-called JIHADIS, only a heartless person will stay quiet and not openly condemn these acts.”

-Rehmat/Mortal, Pakistan is not insane society, i do not have much good news to share these days from Pakistan. But yesterdays newspaper had the picture of Aisam Ul Haq and Rohan Bopanna from India their T-sharts painted with grafitti Start Tennis, stop war. Both guys from India and Pakistan have played in mixed doubles in a number of tennis tournaments, are part of ‘Aman ki Asha’ (desire for peace) initiative between Jang group newspaper and times of India.
Also, Just listen to this song from Pakistani pop singers titled ‘Ye hum nahi’ you will need to understand Urdu/Hindi to understand it:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KlCF8gMxy PM&feature=related

Apart from that, Pakistan army is using the national television to play drama serials based on true stories of officers and men wounded/martyred in war against terror to win Public support/pave the way for much needed military offensive in militant infested areas.

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/ecc0e474-258d- 11e0-8258-00144feab49a.html#ixzz1CIX9Xmm a

Beyond the Call of Duty: Invincible Spirits, Immortal Souls
http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/ecc0e474-258d- 11e0-8258-00144feab49a.html#axzz1CIX3Iff R

Pakistan army enlists drama to rally public

a clip:
http://video.ft.com/v/757569895001/Propa ganda-wars-in-Pakistan

Make no mistake, Pakistan is putting up a fight and this nation does not give up so easily. Come what may, we will beat the odds. InshAllah. You don’t like the ‘idea of Pakistan’ that is not my problem. But decide which side you pick, on the other hand is the propaganda war of terrorists who propagate to kill in the name of Islam. What else can you ask from a nation that has suffered thousands of casualties and silently bear the pain of departing loved ones.

Posted by Umairpk | Report as abusive

Rehmat:
“So the bigger worry where you and I would agree is that India will be screwed big time if Pakistan goes totally out of control”

-Isn’t it about time India signs a no war pact, move its Army from Pakistan border, make progress on Kashmir dispute, stop ranting Pakistan is epicenter of terrorism and work on intelligence sharing etc. Allay fears, assist Pakistan to redeploy forces to militant infested areas requiring military ops? still few Indians propose to create mischief in Baluchistan, further divide Pakistan etc. As stated, India must rather support the initiatives taken by Pakistan. Only then both countries can make progress, for example Pakistan and russia have buried the hatched and started to cooperate with each other on security issues. Both nation’s history is bitter, no friendship in past but future demands to work together. I think as much as some Indians would love to see Pakistan implode, your worst nightmares would come true with a huge chaotic state just next door, armed with nukes, hotbed of terror. The forces of order in Pakistan is its Army and its people. All others are a source of chaos. Still always i read Indian bashing the Pak Army and ISI as aiding and abetting terror? Some pattern does not fit here.
But it is easier to blame other for inaction, incompetence instead to look upon ones own deficiency. Though, I state I am an optimist and think no challenge is difficult to overcome for Pakistan nation. How we will be able to make it, with unity, fixing the economy, creating jobs, putting education system in place, bringing reforms and good governance. All challenges faced by normal developing nations. Once again, Pakistan is just another country with its share of problems.
Hopefully you understand we are being vocal against terrorism in many ways, through arts, dramas and songs. Through sending our men and women in uniform in harms way to protect our country from violent terrorists. making sure our soil is not used for plotting attack on others. And I am sure in stating all this i represent the street view in Pakistan, the common man majority.

Posted by Umairpk | Report as abusive

Umairpk: “Isn’t it about time India signs a no war pact, move its Army from Pakistan border, make progress on Kashmir dispute, stop ranting Pakistan is epicenter of terrorism and work on intelligence sharing etc. Allay fears,”

All this sounds nice. But have you observed that you are demanding everything from India and none from your country? We need two hands for a clap. India has tried peace initiatives with Pakistan on many occasions. Pakistan has tried wars with India on different occasions. Whenever a peace attempt was made, immediately it was derailed by Pakistan’s military or its proxy elements. If we take one step forward, the whole thing moves two steps backward. Do you agree that there are different parties inside Pakistan with different agendas and goals? Your army general has openly said that India is the number one enemy. Your Jihadists groups and the ISI have a different agenda. When things were beginning to warm up between the two countries, they launched the Mumbai attacks. Your civilian government is made up of puppets who reflect your military’s masters’ edicts. When our government offered financial aid during the flooding, they were treated with utter contempt. Even taking aid from India seemed to be a shameful thing for some Pakistanis. When this is the situation, explain to us how we can forget our self respect and dignity and keep offering peace initiatives? For a change, let us see if Pakistan will withdraw its forces from the border as a friendly gesture. India has no interest in moving into Pakistan. We did not invade your country or unleash proxy war when your country was flooded. Let us see if ordinary people like you realize first that we are not your enemy. Once you said that we are not your enemy, but we are not your friends either. A lot of things stem from negative attitude. Unless that attitude goes away, nothing will progress. We are only reacting to everything. If Pakistan makes one peace overture it will be returned many times over by India. Let us see if that happens first.

Posted by KPSingh01 | Report as abusive

KP Singh said:

> If Pakistan makes one peace overture it will be returned many times over by India.

I think so too. India actually wants only one thing from Pakistan (and it’s not even the return of AJK and GB): a complete and permanent cessation of support for jihadi terrorists, in Kashmir and elsewhere. That’s all. If this is sincere and it is shown to last for a while, then there will be a disproportionate response from India in terms of generosity and cooperation. That is fairly certain. India can afford to be generous. It just doesn’t like to be made to feel like a fool. Mumbai 2008 was a terrible betrayal of the peace process and will take a long time to get over. If the situation had been reversed, with (say) 10 RSS guys sailing from Mumbai to Karachi and killing 200 people there, with training provided by past and serving commandos of the Indian army, I can imagine the Pakistani reaction.

Umair said:

> Still always i read Indian bashing the Pak Army and ISI as aiding and abetting terror? Some pattern does not fit here.

The pattern that does not fit, or make any sense at all, is the PA doctrine of “strategic depth” and “death by a thousand cuts”. Gen Kayani keeps ignoring the jihadi threat and insists on being India-centric (his own admission). As long as the Pakistani military establishment believes that cultivating jihadi terrorists is good because they can keep India off-balance, the one crucial thing that India wants from Pakistan will remain unfulfilled.

Hopefully, when the PA top brass learn from the example of Khalid Khwaja and Colonel Imam that even they are not safe from their own creations and start taking serious steps to shut them all down (yes, including the anti-India militants!), then we can hope for peace. Till then, it’s all larifari, as our eloquent friend from Germany says.

> Hopefully you understand we are being vocal against terrorism in many ways, through [...] making sure our soil is not used for plotting attack on others.

If this is really true, then the peace dividend will come about in due course. It takes time to build trust. And the ball is in the PA’s court. They were caught red-handed planning and supporting the Mumbai attack, so the onus is on them to show that they have truly turned over a new leaf. I’m very cynical about the PA, though. Leopards don’t change their spots. The latest news is they are threatening to bankrupt their own country with a nuclear arms race. Good sense is in very short supply.

Regards,
Ganesh Prasad

Posted by prasadgc | Report as abusive

Ganesh
there is so much distrust that each side state that the other must do it first. Both are holding a gun to each other’s head, both are to pull the trigger at any moment.

” Mumbai 2008 was a terrible betrayal of the peace process and will take a long time to get over. If the situation had been reversed, with (say) 10 RSS guys sailing from Mumbai to Karachi and killing 200 people there, with training provided by past and serving commandos of the Indian army, I can imagine the Pakistani reaction.”

-Do you forget East Pakistan, our half country was cut, 90K POWs and a humiliating war and defeat. Do you think Pakistan ever recovered from it? I am not stating 1971 war justifies Mumbai 08. What we seriously need to do is to MOVE ON!. No point arguing more, there are better things to do, both countries have already come a long way. Give and take, is needed, onus is on both. Both have to play the ball, equally.

Posted by Umairpk | Report as abusive

Umair said:

> Both are holding a gun to each other’s head, both are to pull the trigger at any moment.

Not true! India has an explicit no-first-strike policy, while Pakistan retains a first-strike option “because it is conventionally weaker”. India did not cross the LoC even during the Kargil provocation, so that’s not at all an even comparison.

> Do you forget East Pakistan, our half country was cut, 90K POWs and a humiliating war and defeat.

Again, not an even comparison. Mumbai was an unprovoked attack. 1971 was a Pakistani civil war with a genocide of civilians before India got involved and put a stop to it. Yes, both countries should move on, but please don’t compare apples to oranges.

Regards,
Ganesh Prasad

Posted by prasadgc | Report as abusive

Pakistanis have to realize that their country does not equal India. This is the root cause of contemptuous attitude. The only province that suffered the horrors of partition was Punjab (Bengal was on the other side). And Pakistan is dominated by Punjab. On the other side of the border, Punjab is one state amongst the many. Somehow, we Punjabis tend to see the world in Punjab. We are a dominant culture. We are the cultural trend setters in the region. However, coming to India-Pakistan politics, we really are not equals from various angles. Pakistan has tried to achieve parity with India on all fronts. All comparisons are made with India. And Indians do not realize this either. They too compare India with Pakistan on all fronts. One will not find the idiotic demonstration like that in Wagah border with other countries.

Seeing India as an equal and as a rival has made Pakistan spend all its energy and resources to keep up pace with India. It has also made them the aggressor on the military side. If Vietnam decides to take on China as a rival imagine what would happen to them. There is no comparison.

And Western powers which have manipulated Pakistan over the years have equated India with Pakistan to keep their leverage alive. I frequently read of them as the Asian “rivals.”

First of all, we are not rivals. Pakistani Punjabis can surely compare themselves with their Indian counterparts. But the equation stops at that. Pakistanis have to change their attitude towards India. That is the first step. No your size. No your limitations. That will help you country move on. Many Pakistanis live of a false pride that as Muslims they ruled all of India. But Muslims are not a homogeneous group. Different Muslim Sultans ruled over different regions big and small over the entire sub-continent. And there were non-Muslim kings ruling their regions as well. They formed alliances against other alliances to claim territories. India is not a Hindu country. It has not been defined in terms of religion. Pakistan is. This is the first difference. India is like the entire European continent put together as one nation. Pakistan is like a region that will fit inside India. The needs are very different.

Pakistan would compare well with Afghanistan, Iran, Bangladesh etc. Recognize your place in the world and act accordingly. A lot of tension will disappear. You cannot blame India for feeling big. It is big. Learn to accept it.

Posted by KPSingh01 | Report as abusive

@Umair

“-Do you forget East Pakistan, our half country was cut, 90K POWs and a humiliating war and defeat. Do you think Pakistan ever recovered from it? I am not stating 1971 war justifies Mumbai 08. What we seriously need to do is to MOVE ON!”
***I recall you said 1971 revenge has been taken in 1998 (by Pakistan going nuclear). So why this talk now?

As far as 1971 scenario is concerned (Baluchistan) India has moved on since Pakistan (and India) gone nuclear and India went into economic growth spurt and bigger ambitions. REad my long post that would allay your fears, PERHAPS. I don;t think Pakistan has moved on.

Regarding Mumbai attack, Pakistan need to do something for India to move on. Do you se anything from Pakistan that reassures India can move on. Calling India enemy #1 is not going to help that.

I agree we seriously need to move on. How to do is the question.

YOU SAID GIVE AND TAKE. Could you please suggest in the context you mentioned. Let me make a statement that India cannot afford to attack Pakistan in any form. Pakistan’s stability is needed for Indian stability. This is Kindergarten stuff which I have no idea why you cannot understand. India knows million B’deshis who spilled into India in 1971. Pakistan has its own experience with Afghanistan. Stable Pakistan and Afghanistan are needed for India and Pakistan.

When you cannot even propose that both India and Pakistan, not just India need to move make moves at borders, there is a serious problem. I would like you to say that both India and Pakistan must withdraw armies from borders, India should withdraw its troops from Kashmir and Pakistan should do the same from AJK and take care of India-centric terrorists with the same love you have for Waziristan and Swat-based terrorists.

Every time India-centric terrorism is talked, you tell us that Pakistan is taking actions against terrorists. This is called evading the issue because you know enough which terrorists operates where.

Posted by rehmat | Report as abusive

“No your size. No your limitations.”

Sorry. That should read as “Know your size. Know your limitations”. Sometimes I do not realize I am still Sardar.

Posted by KPSingh01 | Report as abusive

PS
@Umair

correction

YOU SAID GIVE AND TAKE. Could you please suggest in the context you mentioned WHAT GIVE AND TAKE INVOLVES?

Posted by rehmat | Report as abusive

KPSingh”You cannot blame India for feeling big. It is big. Learn to accept it.”

-That is the problem, India is big but its mentality is petty. Just like Gorilla in zoo is big, big skull, big brain but good 4 nothing. Don’t take me wrong, but just see all other countries make India-Pakistan comparison because both countries are similar in nature. Both countries are a nuclear power and have strong military. All you need is big heart, big resolve to get over border disputes, big solutions to problems.
My friend in this case I would state India is a big country, while Pakistan is a GREAT country!

Posted by Umairpk | Report as abusive

KPSingh:
“Learn to accept it.”

-For me to respect a big India is not possible. I would grant far more respect towards a pacific Island small nation that respects its neighbours, have good relations with them and does not expect their neighbour to live in their shadow. Its not a big nation that earns respect, its the great nation that earn respect. Sorry but India’s sheer size is nothing, it means nothing to me. What matters to me though is a lot of our Muslim brothers live there. That is about it

Posted by Umairpk | Report as abusive

Rehmat:
“When you cannot even propose that both India and Pakistan, not just India need to move make moves at borders, there is a serious problem. I would like you to say that both India and Pakistan must withdraw armies from borders, India should withdraw its troops from Kashmir and Pakistan should do the same from AJK and take care of India-centric terrorists with the same love you have for Waziristan and Swat-based terrorists.”

-I clearly stated that first India move its Army from border, thereby allowing Pakistan Army to free its units and redeploy them to Khyber Province. That means both Armies withdraw.
Both countries resolve the Siachin dispute, I think Myra wrote a book ‘Heights of madness’ no two countries in the world fight on such high altitude warfare in snow covered mountains.
Your suggestion that both countries withdraw Army from Kashmir region is also good, our part of bargain would be to ensure no infiltration take place no terrorism take place. India on its part recognize the autonomous status of Kashmir, let Kashmiris take charge. Later make the LoC irrelevant.
Both countries can look to ease travel restriction, Pakistan could benefit from India’s IT and outsourcing industry, etc. Free trade etc. This is what I mean by give and take, gradually take steps to overcome the past, slowly the new generation on both sides will shape a new future one which is free from hatred. Old stereotypes, rigid thinking will be broken and we will break free from the vortex of distrust.
One thing you must make sure, NEVER EVER accept Pakistan to live in the shadow of India. You can expect that from Nepal, Bhutan, Maldives, Sri Lanka, Burma, Bangladesh or Afghanistan but NEVER Pakistan. We will live according to our own aspirations and pursue our goals.

Posted by Umairpk | Report as abusive

**One thing you must make sure, NEVER EVER ‘expect’ Pakistan to live in the shadow of India.**

Posted by Umairpk | Report as abusive

@”we seriously need to do is to MOVE ON!”

As Ganesh said, the analogy between Mumbai 2008 & 1971 does not make any sense BUT I do agree that we need to move past previous conflicts & history. India would be ready to move past Mumbai 2008 but in order to do that, we need to see some action by Pakistan on the ground which shows that it is taking steps to make sure that Mumbai 2008 in never repeated. Instead what do we see? We see the mastermind of the Mumbai attacks, Haafiz Saeed attending parties hosted by the PA & openly giving lectures to lawyers in Lahore. What kind of message does that send to the Indians by Pakistan? It sends the message “we’ll continue to support terrorism against you, so go take a hike”. You tell me, under these circumsatances, how do you expect India to MOVE ON from Mumbai 2008?

@”One thing you must make sure, NEVER EVER ‘expect’ Pakistan to live in the shadow of India”

See, this kind of attitude is the biggest problem with Pakistan. It’s about time, Pakistanis get smarter & start thinking with your heads rather than your hearts. You have to realize & accept the fact that it is Pakistan which is in big trouble here, not India AND that normalising relations, will help Pakistan a lot more that it will help India. For starters, your defense budget eats up almost 70% of your country’s precious revenue. By normalising relations, you could cut that defense expenditure in half & free up tens of billions $$$ of precious resources & use it for educational & socio-economic reforms, which in turn will help you curb the rise of radicalism. India, on the other hand is already growing at a rapid pace & normalising relations will probably not affect it’s defense spending much since it’s needs have become a lot more China-centric than Pakistan-centric. This is just one egsample, there are many more. Also, India will not give into your threatening logic that if Pakistan fails, it will affect India & therefore India needs to help Pakistan. India can & is beefing up it’s internal security & can insulate itself to a great extent. It’s about time that you guys leave your ego on the side & start thinking about your future because this macho chest-thumping won’t get you anywhere.

Posted by Mortal1 | Report as abusive

Umairpk: “That is the problem, India is big but its mentality is petty. Just like Gorilla in zoo is big, big skull, big brain but good 4 nothing. Don’t take me wrong, but just see all other countries make India-Pakistan comparison because both countries are similar in nature. Both countries are a nuclear power and have strong military.”

In other words you are indirectly reflecting the typical Pakistani view that you are superior to Indians. And this is the attitude that has made Pakistan what it is. In 1965 war this attitude led to a complete debacle. They seriously believed that one Pak soldier is equal to ten Indian soldiers.

When I say India is big, I meant in terms of size, population, diversity etc. Big size has its disadvantages – it is slow to changes and has a lot of inertia. But big size is also an advantage. Things cannot spread across uniformly and impact the whole nation. Everything becomes localized. That is one reason why India, which has faced more secessionist onslaught and insurgency since the time of its birth, has still moved on. It is like a huge elephant being bitten by leaches at various places. It is difficult to bring it down.

India and Pakistan are not similar in nature. One is a democracy with its military doing what it is ordered to do. In Pakistan, the military runs the show. India is not founded on religion. Pakistan is. The only thing that happened was that the two countries were formed at the same time by drawing arbitrary boundaries. Beyond that the two have moved in different directions.

Having nuclear bombs and a huge military does not make two countries equal. North Korea has the world’s fourth largest military with nukes and missiles. Does that make it equal to China? There is no comparison. And North Korea is not haunted by China’s size and immensity. Both have the needed deterrence. When that is the case, why Pakistanis see their country at par with India? I am not saying this from a superiority stand point. A motor bike can never become a truck. Both go on the roads and can reach good speed. The motor bike can speed fast and make maneuvers the truck cannot. But the truck is always more dangerous to stand on the way.

“All you need is big heart, big resolve to get over border disputes, big solutions to problems.”

We have tried all that. India has never been the aggressor against any of its neighbors. We have always been in the retaliatory mode. Our leaders have always made the first step towards peace initiatives. So we have always been going forward towards making peace. In the case of Pakistan, every effort has been derailed by your military which badly needs an enemy in order to keep its power hold on Pakistanis. Therefore the problem lies with your military. We all have big hearts and big resolve. We are waiting for a change of attitude on your side.

“My friend in this case I would state India is a big country, while Pakistan is a GREAT country!”

The rest of the world does not see it that way. All headline news show nothing positive about your great country. That must trigger some thinking on your part.

Posted by KPSingh01 | Report as abusive

Umairpk: “For me to respect a big India is not possible.”

That is the problem. You can respect India for what it is. It being big should not be a problem.

“I would grant far more respect towards a pacific Island small nation that respects its neighbours, have good relations with them and does not expect their neighbour to live in their shadow.”

This is your own mental attitude. You are assuming that you are being looked at as a shadow of India and are unable to accept this illusion. We are not treating you as a shadow. You are looking at a rope and are reacting to it as though you have seen a cobra. The problem does not lie with the rope, but with your vision.

“Its not a big nation that earns respect, its the great nation that earn respect.”

That’s all right. For everyone, his nation is the greatest. One can never tell the other that his nation is not great. Today India and Pakistan are being looked at differently in the world community. India is looked at with a positive attitude and a lot of understanding of its issues. Pakistan is looked at with suspicion and phobia similar to that towards North Korea and Iran. And this view has developed on its own. No propaganda has been involved.

“Sorry but India’s sheer size is nothing, it means nothing to me. What matters to me though is a lot of our Muslim brothers live there. That is about it”

Denial will not change the truth. Your Muslim brothers in India are breathing a sigh of relief today that their parents did not migrate to Pakistan.

Posted by KPSingh01 | Report as abusive

“**One thing you must make sure, NEVER EVER ‘expect’ Pakistan to live in the shadow of India.**”

Turn the light on. The snake you are afraid of is simply a rope.

Posted by KPSingh01 | Report as abusive

KPS:”When I say India is big, I meant in terms of size, population, diversity etc”

Don’t forget economy. India’s economy is almost 9 times bigger than Pakistan’s & the gap is expected to get wider in the foreeable future. That in my mind, is the biggest disaprity & if Pakistanis aren’t smart enough to see this, they’ll be bankrupt very soon.

Posted by Mortal1 | Report as abusive

KPSingh:
” A motor bike can never become a truck. Both go on the roads and can reach good speed. The motor bike can speed fast and make maneuvers the truck cannot. But the truck is always more dangerous to stand on the way. ”

-What about Japan which is a small nation and still stronger economically than many big nations. Your concept of small and big is just ridiculous, as it is said average minds discuss people, great minds discuss ideas. Pakistan is not just a piece of land, it is the name of an ideology. Pakistan came into being for an ideology, its struggle, its creation and its quest to beat the odds and still it continues. In that sense Pakistan is different than India. Again, it is irrelevant which country is big in geography and physical features. Resolve the disputes, respect your neighbours. Earn your respect, lead by example, take the ownership, own your mistakes, correct your shortcomings. That is what makes a nation great, India is holding on to dear Kashmir, human rights record there is not good and still claims to be in the race of UN permanent seat?
Pakistan, as a muslim nation has its seperate identity, its people’s aspirations are different. Its role as a leading Muslim nation is unique. As stated, do not expect us to live in India’s shadow. Yes, we certainy welcome the possibility of a good neighbourly relationship based on mutual respect and shared interests with India. Good Luck!

Posted by Umairpk | Report as abusive

@”As stated, do not expect us to live in India’s shadow.”
Posted by Umairpk

India will always cast a shadow in it’s region, based on it’s relative size & strength just as the US casts a shadow in North America, Brazil in South America & China in the pacific. If you guys don’t want to live in India’s shadow, you should move to another continent because this shadow will only get bigger. I would suggest Antartica. Since there’s no one there, you won’t have to worry about shadows!

Posted by Mortal1 | Report as abusive

Umairpk: “What about Japan which is a small nation and still stronger economically than many big nations.”

Japan is not intimidating and bullying its neighbors. It is smaller than China and is rich and it knows its place in the world. Does Pakistan do that? It is equating itself with India and has been trying to bully it ever since its birth. Japan might be a big economy, but it will drain all its wealth and resources if it starts engaging in confrontation with a bigger country like China or Russia, which has must vaster resources and room to take on any onslaught. That was my point.

“Your concept of small and big is just ridiculous,”

See above. I am not talking in absolute terms. Size does matter when it comes to taking blows. A small body will fall faster to the same number of blows. And in the case of Pakistan, it has punched India many times with no significant effect. India has taken it all and is still walking around. Pakistan has become fatigued and broken. India delivered one punch and Pakistan split in two. India has a huge momentum. It is difficult to stop that momentum or change its course because of its sheer size. Pakistan can change from hot to cold and vice versa very fast because of its size. It can fall victim to sickness very quickly and recovery depends upon how deep the damage is.

“as it is said average minds discuss people, great minds discuss ideas.”

And wise minds try to know the truth and seek solutions. Discussing ideas is not adequate. Ideas need to materialize. Crooked minds try to hide the truth and deny the reality.

“Pakistan is not just a piece of land, it is the name of an ideology.”

Nations founded on ideology have always fought to keep that ideological excuse alive and the nations bleed to death as a result. Soviet Union was also founded on an ideology and we know what happened to it at the end. They spent all their resources on keeping the ideology alive against human interests. And they used force to keep that alive. And that force cost them.

“Pakistan came into being for an ideology, its struggle, its creation and its quest to beat the odds and still it continues.”

Pakistan is a result of short sighted geo-political goals of an erstwhile empire. Just like religion was used to prop up fighters to take on the Soviet Union, religion was used as the weapon to achieve that end in a short time. Pakistan has struggled because it got hung up on ideology and turned paranoiac as a result. There was no need for it. A camel can only carry so much of weight. After that all it takes is one extra straw to break its back. One cannot live on the belief that the camel has always taken on more weight.

“In that sense Pakistan is different than India.”

That is because you have very limited knowledge on India’s post independence history. India has faced every possibility of going broke right from the start – it was terribly poor, its mass was mostly illiterate and poor, it had famines and droughts, it had more secessionist movements than now, it had feudal system, and limited infrastructure. All these were further weighed down by extreme diversity in all aspects. And India has managed to struggle against these odds and become a respected nation in the international arena.

“Again, it is irrelevant which country is big in geography and physical features.”

Unfortunately it is. Isn’t that why your military is seeking strategic depth far removed from India? Bigger place with more resources can survive against the odds. India has done that over eons. It is surrounded by sea on three sides and the world’s tallest mountain chain in the North. And it has helped the culture evolve uniquely.
If India is a barren desert, then its size will not matter. India is not Greenland. It is big in every way.

“Resolve the disputes, respect your neighbours.”

When you point a finger at someone, remember that the other three fingers are pointing at you.

“Earn your respect, lead by example, take the ownership, own your mistakes, correct your shortcomings.”

We have done all that. We still do not get the basic respect as your neighbor.

“That is what makes a nation great”

So why is Pakistan not in that league? Are you indirectly acknowledging that your nation has done none of all those things that you have listed?

“India is holding on to dear Kashmir, human rights record there is not good and still claims to be in the race of UN permanent seat?”

India is holding on to Kashmir, much like Pakistan is holding on to Balochistan. India’s human rights records may not be great, but I see the pot calling the kettle black. What does UN permanent seat have to do with human rights records? If that is the case none of the permanent members deserve to be there – US has engaged in many human rights violations (Abu Gharib, Guantanamo bay, economic sanctions on countries that led to misery of the people). UK has engaged in it. France has. USSR was a champion of denial of rights and freedom. China does not give freedom and rights to its own people. It brutally suppressed Tianenmen square protests and locked down on Uighur Muslims. Why are you singling India out? Aren’t you guys sucking up to the Chinese? For what? Respect, leadership, human rights, owning up mistakes?

“Pakistan, as a muslim nation has its seperate identity, its people’s aspirations are different.”

You just said in one of the earlier replies that India and Pakistan are of same nature. Now you are contradicting your earlier statement. I was the one who pointed out the difference you are quoting here.

“Its role as a leading Muslim nation is unique.”

How does it led so far? By killing a million Bengali Muslims? By killing Balochis? By killing Ahmedias and Shias? By selling nuclear bomb making technology to rogue nations like North Korea, and Libya? What do these have to do with Islam?

“As stated, do not expect us to live in India’s shadow.”

We don’t. But it looks like you have assumed that position yourself. Once again let me tell you that you are screaming about a rope calling it a snake.

“Yes, we certainy welcome the possibility of a good neighbourly relationship based on mutual respect and shared interests with India. Good Luck!”

Well we have not seen that in reality yet. All we saw was a slap on the face when we offered aid during the flood devastation. I have seen your glee in one of the blogs in the past here when Indians were attacked racially in Australia. Goodwill has to come from the heart. I do not see it in your expressions or your country men’s towards us. We all offered our solace and wishes when your country was down due to terrorist bombings and flood devastation. Not one Pakistani here ever came forward to offer any solace when our citizens were attacked in Mumbai by terrorists. It has always been a one sided demand.

Posted by KPSingh01 | Report as abusive

@”What about Japan which is a small nation and still stronger economically than many big nations.”

You have drawn parallels between Pakistan & Japan before, how about learning something from the japanese for a change? After WW2, the Japanese realized their mistakes & took a complete U-turn. They abandoned their imperialistic mindset in favor of a progressive economy driven mindset. They forgave the countries with whom they had fought 2 deadly wars & formed strong alliances with them, the strongest of them being with the country which had nuked them. The change of attitude is the reason, why Japan is what it is today. Unfortunately, I don’t see any change in attitude from Pakistan. Instead I see more of the same attitude, belligerent & confrontational.

Posted by Mortal1 | Report as abusive

Mortal:”India will always cast a shadow in it’s region, based on it’s relative size & strength just as the US casts a shadow in North America, Brazil in South America & China in the pacific. If you guys don’t want to live in India’s shadow, you should move to another continent because this shadow will only get bigger. I would suggest Antartica. Since there’s no one there, you won’t have to worry about shadows!”

-If you are implying India will be able to swallow Pakistan, you are mistaken. You are underestimating Pakistan, do not even THINK India can do that. Before you even cross the Atlantic ocean on the way to Antartica, do not forget the starving poor and slums back home, those farmers committing suicides, those poor who save lifetime to wed their daughters. There are far more challenges at home for both nations to take care of instead of reaching for the stars.

KPS
I am not a racist, and take my words back if I stated anything regarding Indians being targeted in Australia. We are all world citizens, equal in rights and deserve liberty and freedom. About India, you are potraying India as the peace dove and Pakistan as the wolf. Obviously your analysis is not objective and is biased.

Posted by Umairpk | Report as abusive

Umair said:

> Sorry but India’s sheer size is nothing, it means nothing to me. What matters to me though is a lot of our Muslim brothers live there. That is about it

Try and be a humanist, not just an Ummah-nist :-).

Regards,
Ganesh Prasad

Posted by prasadgc | Report as abusive

@777 and others
Your advise to keep India/Pakistan dispute on territory rther than religion associated? Sorry, I cannot!
let us examine some of the comments of your so called countrymen;

Rehmat to Umair, your country manufactures terrorists in the name of Islam!
KP says, Kashmiris demand a separate State because they are majority muslims. It has already been tried in the case of Pakistan and it led to no life in paradise. Kashmir is an extremely important Geo-strategic region for us.

And then some one else said that I have never said a good word about India.

Just read these statements carefully and I did and draw your own conclusions!
I have sympathised with the victims, Sikhs massacred in their own holy temple by the Indian military. I sympathise with Kashmiris because they are being systematically persecuted by Indian military, because they are muslims.
Should I sympathise with the Indian Govt. for there oppressions at the same time? Certainly not! Should I foalso forget that kashmiris are muslims? certainly not.
Do I sympathise with Pakistan Govt or its military for suppressing Pashtoons at the behest of Americans, and previously Baluchis and Bengalis? Certainly not! I sympathise with the victims and support moraly with resustance. Pakistan military is simply shooting in their own feet and would meet the defeat which they deserve.

Talk is easy and cheap, writing is even cheaper. You guys are free to read as much crap as possible, but history takes its own course. Just imagine for a second the anglo saxons and them the United States have alwasy followed a short term strategy (Henry Kissinger was the great architect of the US foreign policy, which is todate being followed by his students in the State dept. just to manage the situation, not to think long term and solve the issue. Indian Govt. has been following the same strategy of the colonialists time, divide and rule, i.e., manage the situation and not solve it.

Now let us consider the facts, there are more than two billion muslims in this world scattered across in I guess 50 odd countries. Examine the staement of Rehmat, a pseudo muslim who has almost assimilated in the Indian hindu society, and then the two sikhs, the dead wood I call it, having lost the dignity and the respect from the Indian Govt. for their faith and culture, seeking assylum around the world and then you have a former hindu who declares himself an atheist, fed up with the mumbo jumbo of the religion and in my opinion has no binding commitment to ethics, morals or humanity and simply follows what he is told by the country where he lives in. This is noz zo say that these people are not good people or sincere in their comments, but what is the basis for their rhetoric? I am not ashamed to be a muslim and I have a lot of respect for the humans whom I consider the creation of God almighty. My ethics and morals and solidarity with those who are less fortunate or become victims of the Govt. is from my faith and not because uncle sam or samson of this world.
Are two billion people going to accept the messing about with their faith, their freedom and giving them labels of terrorism, Islamic radicals and insurgents and jihadis within their own country. I doubt it, the tide is bound to turn sooner than later and any one coming in their way would be washed away. India would just be a big tree, dry and hollow because of its sixty years sick roots and would float away into the Sea with a matter of a very short time.
From Tunisia to Egypt and yemen to Afghanistan, the people are rising one by one, not jehadis or clergy or mullahs, but ordinary folks, who are simple believers, try to pray five times aday to the God almighty and just want freedom and dignity and food for their families!
Is it too much for God almighty to listen to their prayers? I shall watch with eagerness how India is going to withstand the tide when it reaches its shores? Perhaps Mr Obama and Hillary Clinton would declare their solidarity with the kashmiri muslims and tell the last Indian Sikh leader to listen to the grievences of the Kashmiris, whose claim is long overdue?

Rex Minor

PS I say last sikh leader, since Rehmat once mentioned that Sikhs are not good leaders or something along these lines!

Posted by pakistan | Report as abusive

@”If you are implying India will be able to swallow Pakistan, you are mistaken. You are underestimating Pakistan” Posted by Umairpk

I have stated many times that any country would have to be brain-dead, if it intends to take over Pakistan & it’s myraid of problems, so what gave you the idea of that implication from me? See the analogies which I’ve given above, that of the US, Brazil & China. The last time I checked, the US had not swallowed Mexico or Canada & Brazil had not yet invaded Argetina or Chile. In fact, how many countries do you know of, that have been swallowed by India? heck, India did not even swallow East Pakistan when Indian troops occupied that land, so what makes you think that it is interested in swallowing Pakistan or any other country? We have tried to explain this to you many times but it seems that this ridiculous paranoia (of being swallowed by India) has become an addiction for you Pakistanis, which you don’t want to get rid of.

@”do not forget the starving poor and slums back home, those farmers committing suicides, those poor who save lifetime to wed their daughters.”

C’mon, is this juvenile rhetoric necessary? Yes there are slums & poor farmers in India but their numbers are declining as we speak but take a guess where their numbers are rapidly rising? In fact, the biggest slum in Asia is no longer in Mumbai but in Karachi.

Posted by Mortal1 | Report as abusive

@Rex minor/pakistan

May I ask, what kind of dignity does a twisted third-rated mullah like you have, for living like a rat in a country whose forces currently occupy the land of your favorite pashtuns & whose leaders regularly taunt you to either assimilate or get lost? If you indeed have any dignity, you would leave the confines of western europe & crawl back into the cave that you came from. And BTW, I did not seek assylum anywhere but I think you should, the mental assylum that is!

Posted by Mortal1 | Report as abusive

Pakistan: “I sympathise with Kashmiris because they are being systematically persecuted by Indian military, because they are muslims.”

Absolutely wrong. There is no religious mission here for the military to exterminate Muslims. Indian security forces are also fighting insurgency in North Eastern India for decades against Bodos, Nagas, Mizos and Assamese. These are not Muslims. These are militant groups hiding in the dense jungles in North Eastern India and Burma and have threatened the local people from voicing their opinions against them. And Indian military cannot tell the difference between the locals and the militants. So the counter-insurgency methods are utterly brutal. And there too the army protection law is effective. This means the military is not accountable for anyone being shot or anyone who disappears. This sounds just like Kashmir.

In essence, brutality is to be condemned. But facts should not be twisted to give it a religious tone. Kashmir prior to 1988 was quite peaceful. Indian military was thin there and there were no insurgency based brutality. What changed? People have been Muslims then as they are now. After 1989, Pakistan launched a proxy war with a calculated plan to draw the Indian military in. And by sustaining insurgency for a decade, just like in Afghanistan against the Soviets, they slowly turned the frustration of the locals against the military. And the insurgents carefully threatened and drove the Hindus and Sikhs from Kashmir (“Agar Kashmir mein rehna hai, to allah ho akbar kehna hai” was the slogan). It has taken a generation to turn the public mood against the Indian military. As the mood changed, Pakistanis launched the campaign for UN plebiscite, human rights violation etc to put India on the defensive. Stone pelting has been organized to make the whole thing like a home grown revolution. There are reports of commands coming from the other side of the Line of control about where to launch the riots and stone pelting. The goal is to frustrate the security forces and push them to the breaking point. When they lose their minds and launch counter attacks, publicize it, run the campaign and add more salt to the wound. And it is Kashmiris who have started saying that they are Muslims and therefore need to go it alone. When pushed to the corner, people tend to seek guidance from religious leaders.

Kindly do not propagate distorted stories without any regard for facts.

Posted by KPSingh01 | Report as abusive

Pakistan: “Talk is easy and cheap, writing is even cheaper. You guys are free to read as much crap as possible, but history takes its own course.”

If that is the case why are you writing cheap stuff? How did you decide we are reading crap? Is it because what we read and understand does not align with your blind views?

Your sympathy is nothing but crocodile tears. You are a Pakistani at heart and you are as venomous as many other blinded Pakistanis are. Your sitting in Germany makes no difference. All your expressions speak for themselves. If you really are living in Germany, you should have been exposed to modern methods of research, data analysis and providing credible information. Your expressions here do not reflect any influence of an advanced Western nation built on democratic ideals and modernity in values.

Posted by KPSingh01 | Report as abusive

Pakistan: “I say last sikh leader, since Rehmat once mentioned that Sikhs are not good leaders or something along these lines!”

Rehmat, be careful with these guys. Now you are being quoted for things you may not have said. If you deal with them, they will make you forget your own name by repeatedly telling that you are not Rehmat.

Posted by KPSingh01 | Report as abusive

Pakistan: “Are two billion people going to accept the messing about with their faith, their freedom and giving them labels of terrorism, Islamic radicals and insurgents and jihadis within their own country.”

Why is this attitude of being against the rest of the world? Are you guys breathing a different air? Two billion Muslims can learn to live with others instead of feeling threatened by others. Almost 99% of them do already. It is the 1% which comprises of people like you who seem to have the problem.

“I doubt it, the tide is bound to turn sooner than later and any one coming in their way would be washed away.”

In other words you are indirectly saying that non-Muslims are your enemies and you are going to rise an Armageddon to fight them. Thanks for the advance notice Mr. Bin Laden!

“India would just be a big tree, dry and hollow because of its sixty years sick roots and would float away into the Sea with a matter of a very short time.”

Your wish clearly shows that you are yet another mad Pakistani. Unfortunately you are going to be very disappointed. When you run back home to your paradise after being kicked out of Germany for abusing the privileges there, remember what I said.

Posted by KPSingh01 | Report as abusive

Umairpk: “About India, you are potraying India as the peace dove and Pakistan as the wolf. Obviously your analysis is not objective and is biased.”

In the context of India-Pakistan relations, I would say we have been quite fair and that fairness has not been reciprocated from your side. We have tried to mind our own business and your military is unable to cope with it and has instigated conflicts to keep the divide alive.

Other than that we are a normal country with our own issues, limitations and dreams.

Posted by KPSingh01 | Report as abusive

KPS to Rex:
“You are a Pakistani at heart and you are as venomous as many other blinded Pakistanis are.”

-Come on! is this the level of debate, now Pakistanis have become venomous snakes, so much hatred displayed by indians. This discussions is just becoming useless. Good bye, have fun and have a nice weekend everyone. Just come back after spending time with your loved ones, life is too short to hate.

Rex,
U r correct man, this is a mob we are up against, I don’t think a civilized debate is possible here?

Posted by Umairpk | Report as abusive

Umairpk: “is this the level of debate, now Pakistanis have become venomous snakes, so much hatred displayed by indians.”

In other words, if we do not say anything that is pleasing to your ears (India is evil, Americans are evil, the world is out to get Muslims etc) it is simply hatred. But if you say anything derogatory towards others, it is all right. You guys are seeing things black and white. There is nothing in between.

We see a lot of misperceptions about India, non-Muslims etc that seem to be deeply entrenched in your head. You are unwilling to pay any respect to our views and opinions. Even if we provide valid references to back up our views, you guys deny them, much like your government denies the evidence provided by Indians as inadequate. On top of that you guys keep repeating the same set of beliefs and assumption which are not real. That is the reason why there are so many of us coming up with the same replies to your close minded expressions and apprehensions.

“life is too short to hate.”

Everything is not just love and hate. There are other things in between – dislike, disagreement etc. You guys take everything as either love or hate.

“Rex,
U r correct man, this is a mob we are up against, I don’t think a civilized debate is possible here?”

First thing, you are a lot smarter than that cave dweller. Do not get emotional and club yourself with this primitive minded religious fanatic. A civilized debate is not made up of statements that agree with your views all the time, making everyone else blameworthy. You need to admit your shortcomings with grace and try to see other’s perspectives and broaden your outlook.

My realization is this – one cannot argue with women and one cannot argue with Pakistanis. Both slip into emotional self pity and blank out completely. All one would hear is continuous repeat of old things until one gives up.

Posted by KPSingh01 | Report as abusive

@KP
You appear to be a good man. You are not at fault, but after what Indian Govt. has done with your folks, it is beyond my imagination how you read and interpret events in the world. I simply quoted your position on Kashmiri muslims. You talk about Geo politics without realising that Kashmiris are people, not a territory and India is not a western occupying power but the next door neighbour, who sent in its military and occupied the country in 1948 and not in 1988!

This world is not that small as you imagine, there are other people beyond north americans or Asians! I have mentioned on several occasions that I am not a Pakistani or even an Afghan. Nor have I taken a refuge or asylum in any country. We all have different biographies and varying views of the world. You guys should, however, realised that when you declare your association with one or other people, country or religion, we the bloggers consider you as ambassadors of the people, land or faith and expect at least a civil language. Is this too much to ask?
Rehmat named me a coolie when I spoke about Indian cruelty towards Sikhs and you have given me several names, the last one being mad Pakistani.

I have no appetitite for crap from NYtimes, Washington Post, Guardian UK, and several Indian and Pakistani newspapers. You read the same crap written by the news papers columnists and then quote them as authentic scriptures! You reckon I am living in an island and do not have access to the media.

We are by nature biased for one or other reason. I admit not to have any control over my heart, and not even tears. I do not consider the nationality, political affiliation or faith of a victim, before I express my feelings.

My advice to Pakistanis would be to break- off the diplomatic relations with India, sealed the entire border and concentrate on nation building and reformation of institutions including the military.
My advice to Indians would be similar, and in addition to narrow the gap between the rich and poor, eliminate discrimination against minorities and allow freedom for Kashmiris.

Rex Minor

Posted by pakistan | Report as abusive

Pakistan: “but after what Indian Govt. has done with your folks, it is beyond my imagination how you read and interpret events in the world.”

Government of India is not an unchanging, static system. It is run by people who periodically change. Every five years people get replaced through elections. Policies and plans are made by the elected people every time according to the existing circumstances. The India in the 1980s was vastly different from the India today. Politicians who ruled during that time will find it very hard to make it to seats of power today. People have changed and their mindsets have changed. Expectations have changed. Any politicians who tries to whip up religious sentiments or ideological ones will not make it far. People are electing leaders who address prices, help to farmers and poor, increase jobs, provide more opportunities for economic growth etc. In this condition, if I were to sit and aim at the government of India for revenge for what was done in the 1980s, I will be fooling myself. It is like throwing stones at a train that has just arrived at the platform because ten years ago another train ran over my uncle. I do have feelings for my uncle. But the train, the passengers in it, the driver etc are different.

If I were to use your logic, Hindus will be justified in seeking revenge for many atrocities committed against them by former Muslim Sultans and invading emperors. In fact some small sections of Hindu fanatics are trying hard to capitalize on such sentiments and are not finding much support for them.

We Sikhs have been persecuted even more terribly by Muslim emperors from the Mughal dynasty. Does this mean that we keep trying to settle scores with Muslims of today? Many who are Muslims today are descendants of Hindus when those Muslim rulers lived.

Justice system has to improve in India and in many other countries. Those who commit crimes against specific communities need to be brought to justice. But the country has a long way to go in achieving that goal. Only steady progress will get us there. It may not happen in my life time. But hopefully progress will get India to the stage where my grandchildren will get justice when they seek them.

“I simply quoted your position on Kashmiri muslims. You talk about Geo politics without realising that Kashmiris are people, not a territory and India is not a western occupying power but the next door neighbour, who sent in its military and occupied the country in 1948 and not in 1988!”

You are ignoring the circumstances which led to Indian paratroopers landing in Kashmir. This means either you have been taught Pakistan’s version of history or you simply have chosen to ignore the truth. India is not an invader. India was for all resolution in 1948. It was the Indian Prime Minister who went to the UN and no one from Pakistan did. The UN resolution demanded complete withdrawal of all militants and military personnel from Pakistan first. Then India was required to maintain a minimal level of troops to help maintain law and order, followed by a plebiscite across the whole of Kashmir. Pakistani leaders knew at that time that a plebiscite would turn against their wishes because of the hostile feelings Kashmiris had towards the invading tribes from Pakistan. So Pakistan refused to honor UN resolutions and withdraw its military from what became “Azad” Kashmir. And India waited for the first condition to be met. And Sheikh Abdullah, the leader of the Kashmiris, made a pact with India in which Kashmir would be protected by India with currency and foreign policy handled by India. Kashmir had its own independent constitution. In 1956, Kashmiri parliament voted towards acceding to India. In 1965, Ayub Khan sent in the tribals again and they were captured by Kashmiris themselves and handed over to Indian security forces. Ayub launched Operation Gibraltor and India launched its counter offensive. Another two weeks of war would have led to Pakistani army’s surrender and the loss of Lahore. Pakistan did not have enough resources and money to run the war for too long.

From 1965 till 1989, Kashmiris were fine in the Indian union. So what changed? Afghan war ended with Soviet withdrawal. Pakistan had the nukes. It also had a radicalized and war hardened tribals who were trained, organized and launched into Kashmir. This was Operation Gibraltor II. This time it worked, because India had never encountered such highly trained and commando style fighters. India had to bring in its military in order to counter the insurgency. And much like the war against the Soviets, the proxy war was simply sustained at a level which simply frustrated the Indian military. And that frustration, in due course turned against the locals. The military could not tell who was a local and who was a militant. And moderate Kashmiris were eliminated by ISI controlled militants.

When the above happened, it was very clear that it was a war launched to gain geo-strategically. In addition Pakistan built up the Taliban and had dug trenches there as its strategic depth. Pakistan was preparing for a major war with India with an aim to inflict a thousand cuts.

By drawing Indian military in such a large number, frustrating them, raising campaign, distorting facts and keeping up the pressure Pakistan did succeed in alienating Kashmiris from India. This has taken about two decades. Based on these events, everything has become a geo-strategic game. And we will be foolish to loosen our grip. Kashmiri people are fine with us. But their frustration has built up due to huge military presence. This is unfortunate and brutal. But we will not be backing down. We just do not know how things are going to go in Pakistan. We can make changes only based on how things change in the neighborhood.

Hope I have explained our perspective to you. If you still come back with your old arguments, by completely ignoring what I have stated, then there would be no point in any of us engaging in any serious discussion with you.

The reason why I term you a staunch Pakistani at heart is because you act like one in every way. Even though you say you are neither Pakistani nor Indian, but German, it does not reflect in your biased views. Neutral people try to understand all sides of the equation. And they rely on facts. If you call NY times, Washington Post etc are useless, what exactly is your authentic source you rely on? Simple gut feelings do not carry much weight. You cannot expect us to follow your edicts. I do not know what you do in Germany. But if are working there or studying there, they are not going to accept things coming from gut feelings. You will need to rely on authentic sources that are acceptable to everyone. Denying them will mean you do not belong to the world community.

Posted by KPSingh01 | Report as abusive

Pakistan: “My advice to Pakistanis would be to break- off the diplomatic relations with India, sealed the entire border and concentrate on nation building and reformation of institutions including the military.
My advice to Indians would be similar, and in addition to narrow the gap between the rich and poor, eliminate discrimination against minorities and allow freedom for Kashmiris.”

Do you think anyone cares what your advice is? You are talking about a country with 1.2 billion people which is emerging as a world economic power. The other one has some 180 million people run by various interest groups. They have no time for any one’s advice. All the ties have been cut in the hearts of the people in both nations since Mumbai attacks. What you call as the Indian mob here has descended in a reaction to those attacks where Pakistan simply decided not to co-operate so that India would be frustrated. Our most wanted criminals like Dawood Ibrahim are state guests in Pakistan under military protection. That is the reason why there are so many of us venting our frustration out. If you go through blogs here prior to Mumbai attacks, you will not find most of us there. That is one reason why people like me want Pakistan to splinter up and become smaller states. That way they will be busy with each other and leave us alone.

Posted by KPSingh01 | Report as abusive

KPSingh:”That is one reason why people like me want Pakistan to splinter up and become smaller states.”

-Just to remind you once again, for people like you Pakistan had made some kick as* nuclear bombs and if you ever try to splinter Pakistan then see what will happen. I would rather suggest you dont mess with Pakistan and mind your f*cking business.

Posted by Umairpk | Report as abusive

KPSingh:”Another two weeks of war would have led to Pakistani army’s surrender and the loss of Lahore. Pakistan did not have enough resources and money to run the war for too long.”

-That is the same, Pakistan still does not have the resources to sustain a war more than 2 weeks. That is why we made nuclear bombs to finish the war in hours rather than in weeks. Infact it just takes a few minutes for a nuclear tipped missile to reach India when launched by Pakistan. Lets see who has the balls to attack Lahore now!

Posted by Umairpk | Report as abusive

KPS
In the words of Mohammad Ali Jinnah “THERE IS NO POWER ON EARTH WHICH CAN UNDO PAKISTAN”.

here is some more medicine to add to your frustration, but dont break your computer screen.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LaxtVnvj- 1U&feature=fvw

Posted by Umairpk | Report as abusive

Pakistan capable of striking back within minutes if attacked

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=udustPdBH 1U&feature=related

Posted by Umairpk | Report as abusive

KPSingh”You are talking about a country with 1.2 billion people which is emerging as a world economic power. The other one has some 180 million people run by various interest groups. They have no time for any one’s advice.”

-Thank God you are a sick, rest of India is divided in shudar, Brahman, hindus and pundits, the low castes are untouchables.
Pakistan is way more united with 98% population in Muslims, sure we have differences among different sects, but no worse than India. You have some serious Pakistan hating problem. Let me also remind you much love for India was also lost in Pakistan in 1971.
it is far to assume India as an emerging economic power, at best it would take decades for India to even catch up with next door China. Similarly with serious corruption, circus monkey politicians and an incompetent bureaucracy it will be huge challenge for India to p[rove itself on world stage. Best of luck, go your way and don’t f*ck around with Pakistan otherwise it would take minutes to send you back to stone age.

Posted by Umairpk | Report as abusive

*Thank God you are a Sikh, but you are sick at the same time. not much of a typo error, bit of both.

Posted by Umairpk | Report as abusive

KPSingh: to Rex”Your wish clearly shows that you are yet another mad Pakistani. Unfortunately you are going to be very disappointed. When you run back home to your paradise after being kicked out of Germany for abusing the privileges there, remember what I said.”

-Look who is talking, KP are u still in North America? make sure when you return back and when passing thru airport security scanner you take off your ‘Kirpan’. I heard Canadians are really getting made with Sikhs hanging around with knives and waving them in public threatnening others. Don’t abuse your previlges in North America, they are already kicking people out of doing so.

Posted by Umairpk | Report as abusive

@Rex
“Examine the staement of Rehmat, a pseudo muslim who has almost assimilated in the Indian hindu society, and then the two sikhs, the dead wood I call it, having lost the dignity and the respect from the Indian Govt. for their faith and culture, seeking assylum around the world and then you have a former hindu who declares himself an atheist, fed up with the mumbo jumbo of the religion and in my opinion has no binding commitment to ethics, morals or humanity and simply follows what he is told by the country where he lives in.”

—Now the real Rex is showing up.

SHAME ON YOU!!! This tells who you are not who we are.
People like you want over billion Muslims to fit in one block. Muslims are not some clones of your mind who is fall outside that block are pseud-Muslims.

You have no idea about what you are talking about. What do you know about agnostics and atheists if you cannot tolerate a Muslim like me who tell what a Hindu’s view of GOD is and tell that I am not in the “realm of Islam”.

All this in background of your confession that you do not know a SHI# about Sikhs and Hindus.

But keep it coming. I think fun is just beginning.

Posted by rehmat | Report as abusive

@Umair
“Rex, U r correct man, this is a mob we are up against, I don’t think a civilized debate is possible here?”

***Umair, this is not called mob. It is just the higher proportion of Indians!!! :-) sorry.

Seriously, I appreciate your input on the blog. I do not know what Reuters would do if you are not around.

Now, do you want to walk the talk and have serious debate. It is ON. If pakistanis are not showing up on Reuters it is not “Mob’s” fault and you should be ready to face the “mob”.

You have started the debate on India as existential threat to Pakistan, your favourite topic, and the ball is sitting dead in your court. Let us go back and forth with comments and move forward, not in circles and use evasive methods in discussing existential threat. The idea should be to learn. If that is not the case, then thanks for not responded yet.

Here are few quick observations. When 2 parties fight, counselors ask them to see positives in each other rather than faults. Call my bias, Indians do say something good about Pakistan SOMETIMES but I am yet to see you say a single good thing about India. You need to begin doing that exercise.

India is great or Pakistan? everyone says the same thing about their country. But Iqbal says it is India. (saare Jahan se …. :-) )

Have you wondered ( Rex: You too. Although my hopes from you are ZERO) why Sikhs and Muslims who have suffered, majority of them would still want to be with India. They, by Rex, are called “PseudoMuslims” or Sikhs as “dead woods” by this online charater.

“Sorry but India’s sheer size is nothing, it means nothing to me. What matters to me though is a lot of our Muslim brothers live there. That is about it”

***Intolerance is dripping and I know there is no substance in the statement. Your anecodotal friendships with some Indian Muslims won’t cut it. You do not give a damn to your “brothers’ who for good reasons do not buy Pakistan’s idea but wish them best. you have no words for your brothers on OIC when Rex spits statements like a paper shredder against why India should not be part of OIC. YOu do not have a strong voice against terrorists which in “collateral damage” (Reference Rex’s statement) killed 40 of your brothers. THis is unending. In the circles where I work, all think the way I think.

Posted by rehmat | Report as abusive

Umairpk: “Just to remind you once again, for people like you Pakistan had made some kick as* nuclear bombs and if you ever try to splinter Pakistan then see what will happen. I would rather suggest you dont mess with Pakistan and mind your f*cking business.”

We have no interest or intention of splitting anyone up. You guys are doing that job yourselves. All this Islamic unity is a mirage. It never existed and it never will. You need an enemy to keep Muslims united. When the enemy does not show a response because he really is not the enemy, patience runs out and other differences between Muslims take over. East Pakistan seceded for that very reason. Your pride might blind you from admitting the reality. But the reality is that your country is on the very edge. I just read in Dawn today that thousands are marching in support of blasphemy law. This means progressive minded people will need to get out of Pakistan or they will be hunted down. And it is the sign of decline. You can keep your nukes. You won’t be needing them to contain your brethren who will want to go their own ways. This is not a wish. Pakistan as never founded for Muslims. It was created as a garrison for the British imperialists to take on expanding Russians. Both empires have disappeared into the dust. Pakistan is no longer of any use to them. The US used Pakistan for the same purpose and they too do not need them if they weaken Al Qaeda. After that, your country will have to face its own internal enemies. I can only feel sorry for you.

Posted by KPSingh01 | Report as abusive

@Rehmat
“But keep it coming. I think fun is just beginning”

Yeah I always say Rex has his funny side. Keep it coming Rexy my boy. We all need a little laughter every now and then.

@Rexy
So Rexy, Rehmat according to you is a pseudo muslim because he tries to understand other person’s views and a true muslim only knows and imposes Islam onto everyone. Islam is the best and f**k the rest is your world’s (not entire muslim world) slogan.

But remember an eye for an eye makes the whole world blind.

Posted by 777xxx777 | Report as abusive

Umairpk: “That is the same, Pakistan still does not have the resources to sustain a war more than 2 weeks. That is why we made nuclear bombs to finish the war in hours rather than in weeks. Infact it just takes a few minutes for a nuclear tipped missile to reach India when launched by Pakistan. Lets see who has the balls to attack Lahore now!”

Like you military, you are too focused on India. Look behind you instead. You won’t be needing nukes to handle your internal enemies who are going to gobble up your nation alive. India has no interest in Pakistan or its affairs. we are only being cautious about any spill over when Pakistan begins to spin out of control. You can lick your nukes to your heart’s content. It won’t make any difference to us.

“In the words of Mohammad Ali Jinnah “THERE IS NO POWER ON EARTH WHICH CAN UNDO PAKISTAN”.

Hee, Hee.. Jinnah died too early before East pakistan seceded. And today he would have been blown up for being a Shia or for being a pork eating, chain smoking and alcohol drinking infidel.

“Thank God you are a sick, rest of India is divided in shudar, Brahman, hindus and pundits, the low castes are untouchables.”

Okay, take a break. Take some deep breaths. All right, Brahman are Hindus. So are pundits. So are low castes. India is not struggling from any religious crisis. There are clowns here and there who want some attention. No one cares for them. In your desperation to get at India, you are exposing your gross ignorance. You are sounding like Rex Minor suddenly. See what emotions can do to you!

“Pakistan is way more united with 98% population in Muslims, sure we have differences among different sects, but no worse than India.”

Pakistan may be 98% Muslim. But I won’t be so sure about unity amongst them. Your unity becomes alive only if the word India appears anywhere. You need India as an enemy to keep your 98% Muslims united. That is a pity. if you take India out of the picture, then it is all brotherly fight on a daily basis. May be suicide bombers are the reflection of that unity. I don’t want that kind of unity. You can keep it.

“You have some serious Pakistan hating problem.”

Well, I can same the same about you – you guys hate India passionately. Hence our return of your courtesy. In reality I do not hate anyone. Hatred is a strong word. I criticize some people. And it can be harsh. But that does not equate to hatred. Hating other humans is inhuman. But if you assume that I do, I cannot stop you.

“Let me also remind you much love for India was also lost in Pakistan in 1971.”

And before that it was all full of love? Who are you kidding with? Pakistan was created by hatred and violence. Pakistan went to war with India right after independence. And it has never stopped the war of hearts right from the start. We do not hate you. But we do not love you either. We are ever cautious about your country. That’s all. And we don’t care if your countrymen love us or not. So long as you mind your business and know you place in the world, that would be adequate.

“it is far to assume India as an emerging economic power, at best it would take decades for India to even catch up with next door China. Similarly with serious corruption, circus monkey politicians and an incompetent bureaucracy it will be huge challenge for India to p[rove itself on world stage.”

We are not in any competition with China. Let them do what they like. As far as we are concerned, we know our limitations and we are happy with our progress. But China will not mess with us anymore. Therefore we are not worried so much about them. We only have to be cautious about their proxy elements that they have been trying to surround us with. But we can handle that. And the topic of China has no relevance here. Your China logic shows the desperation to counter my points. You brought in poverty, caste, China etc to vent your feelings. And I’d like to remind you that you forgot to bring in Kashmir, RAW, Balochistan, Indian embassies in Afghanistan, Sindh water treaty etc.. I know this routine list every time a Pakistani runs out of ideas to counter valid points from Indians.

“Best of luck, go your way and don’t f*ck around with Pakistan otherwise it would take minutes to send you back to stone age.”

We don’t want to f*ck around with a Pakistan bitten by rabies of Islamic radicalism. You can lick your own rear end and die from that. And just realize that you are already near stone age.

Posted by KPSingh01 | Report as abusive

Umairpk: “Look who is talking, KP are u still in North America? make sure when you return back and when passing thru airport security scanner you take off your ‘Kirpan’. I heard Canadians are really getting made with Sikhs hanging around with knives and waving them in public threatnening others. Don’t abuse your previlges in North America, they are already kicking people out of doing so.”

Looks like you have run out of ideas and are desperate to find some thing or the other to hurl at your opponents. Like you said, take the weekend off and spend time with your loved ones. Or watch your brothers in Lahore who are marching to support blasphemy law. I have been through airport security here a few times and no one harassed me. And if you hear something on your streets about Canadians getting ready to kick the Sikhs, tell yourself that it is a just like the other rumors floating around in Pakistan everyday about existential threats, Americans are after your nukes etc.. Canada is a much more open society and people can seek justice for unfair treatment and get their justice. In Pakistan minorities get sentenced to death and no one can do much about that. Those who voice their concerns for such minorities get 27 bullets pumped into them. May be you should worry about Sherry Rehman than about me.

Posted by KPSingh01 | Report as abusive

Umair, I won’t respond to your recent rhetoric but I have to say, I’m disappointed that you have flip-flopped again my friend. Was it you, who said this just a few days ago?: “hopefully we keep the communication open. But i will not engage in tit for tat responses. Only positive comments and engage in constructive discussion. I will ignore unneccessary foolish comments.”

@”What matters to me though is a lot of our Muslim brothers live there. That is about it”

Ever thought about the fate of your 150 million muslim brothers, if you ever happen to use the nukes which you are so proud of & constantly threaten us with?

Posted by Mortal1 | Report as abusive

@”at best it would take decades for India to even catch up with next door China.” Posted by Umairpk

Don’t be so sure about that. Many credible economists & analysts believe that India could surpass China sooner than most believe. Although India has many chalanges, it does have 3 very important fundamentals, in it’s favor.

1) Internal consumption VS Exports: While China’s economy is largely dependant on the global economy (it exports app.75% of what it produces), India’s is mostly dependant on internal consumption (exports app.30% of production). This makes China a lot more vulnerable to global recessions & downturns than India & it was proven in the recent global downturn, when China had to pump in $500 bn+ in order to stabalize it’s economy, India was able to do the same with just $10 bn.

2) Demographics: The 1 child policy instituted by China, will hurt it tremendously in the long run as it’s population ages. It is estimated that by 2025, only 40% of China’s population will be productive (between ages 15 & 65), while India will have a productive population of app. 70%.

3) Democracy VS Communism: In the long run, a free democtaric set up will help India a lot as it produces a lot more enetrprenuers & free thinkers than China. This will help speed up it’s growth prospects, as China eventually slows down due to it’s controlled & closed communist model.

Posted by Mortal1 | Report as abusive

Umair,

I certainly hope for your sake that Pakistani policymakers don’t all think like you do. You are quick to respond with awe-inspiring videos of military capability stung by someone’s throwaway statement, but the State Bank of Pakistan has *failed to* raise interest rates in response to rising inflation. In other words, you have an enemy attacking you on the economic “border” and no action has been taken.

Do you know that the Reserve Bank of Australia has definite targets for inflation? They do not allow inflation to go above the 2-3% band. Once inflation rises, interest rates are flicked up immediately. And although this is not the only reason, Australia has enjoyed 20 years of continuous growth without even a tiny recession. It is alone in the Western world in this performance.

Hyperinflation is the real existential threat to Pakistan. It will ravage your economy much more than a conventional war with India, and I’m not exaggerating. Can you post any videos on how Pakistan is gearing up to handle that threat?

Regards,
Ganesh Prasad

Posted by prasadgc | Report as abusive

Rehmat said:

> They, by Rex, are called “PseudoMuslims” or Sikhs as “dead woods” by this online charater.

And don’t forget that agnostics in his view have no binding commitment to ethics, morals or humanity!

The man is a provable bigot, and a frustrated one at that. But he’s entertaining, and if for no other reason, Reuters should refrain from kicking him off this blog.

Regards,
Ganesh Prasad

Posted by prasadgc | Report as abusive

@”Hyperinflation is the real existential threat to Pakistan. It will ravage your economy much more than a conventional war with India, and I’m not exaggerating. Can you post any videos on how Pakistan is gearing up to handle that threat?” Posted by prasadgc

Ganesh, Pakistani folks don’t care about unimportant & boring things like economy, inflation & interest rates. They are preoccupied with far more important things like war, nukes & external existential threats. I’ve been following the bone-headed moves/non-moves made by people at the helm of Pakistan’s economic affairs for quite some time & it seems as though they are least interested (in economic matters) as well. If that’s the case, what can one expect from ordinary Pakistanis. It’s clear that pathetically low tax collection rates & extremely high defense spending, will ultimately do Pakistan in but who cares!

Posted by Mortal1 | Report as abusive

Pakistan is living off American aid, Saudi dole and World bank aid. Most of it is swindled off by its military and the elites who have one leg always planted in London. The rest have nothing. In this scenario, who cares about hyper inflation or interest rates? Guns per capita is very high in Pakistan. Drugs from Afghanistan make their way through Pakistan to the outside world. Their main concern is about having enough money to keep the Jihadis fed and kept under control. The rest can be handled by blackmail.

Posted by KPSingh01 | Report as abusive

@Ganesh
“Hyperinflation is the real existential threat to Pakistan. It will ravage your economy much more than a conventional war with India, and I’m not exaggerating.”

Ohh come on, when Pakis can live by eating grass for a 1000 years then who needs economy. All they need is Islam and Islamic bombs to protect (blackmail rich non-muslim countries) their Islam.

Posted by 777xxx777 | Report as abusive

@KP
I do not expect from sikhs to start a crusade against the Indian Govt. or the left over of the Mogul kings for the atrocities committed against your folk, but I do expect some sort of solidarity from you for kashmiri muslims who are a minority. Instead you are justifying the use of Indian military for reasons such as geopolitics. On top of that you along with Rehmat and co have taken a firm anti-Pakistan stance which is counter productive to say the least.
Now you are calling me a German. I do read all the papers you refer to and more in other languages, but am very careful with the info put out.

A good day sir, more later.

Rex Minor

Posted by pakistan | Report as abusive

@GPrasad
Refrain from foul language!You did not read carefully Castello’s speach? Gordon Brown used this language against a citizen and lost his position as a Prime Minister. This word is forbidden under the Austarlian law too.

Rex Minor

Posted by pakistan | Report as abusive

@Rehmat
What non-sense you are putting out!
I have simply stated what Kp and the agnostic have put out. I have observed nothing muslim about you, therefore in my eyes you are a Pseudo? You must be the first muslim who considers Hindus as ‘Believers’. Why do’nt you give the opportunity to the Hindus to claim this? You want India to be allowed to join OIC? Your arguments are weak and carry no substance. Do you wish to send Salman Rushdie in the conference?
There are two genuine, honest and sincere Pakistanis on this blog, namely Umair and Matrixx, and instead of learning their views, you guys have been mobbing on them. I know what a mob is as well as mobbing, which is a crime in democracies. You call India as a democracy, which it is not! Your ex colonial master has come out on this subject. You believe that holding parliamentary elections and forming a Govt. makes India as the largest democracy. Your country needs reforms, your judiciary is weak. I say shame on the country and shame on musllims who destroy or tolerate the destruction of worship houses and this goes for Pakistan military as well. Democracies keep their military in Barracks, do not display them in parliaments either like in the USA. Military is also powerful in the USA. This is not the democracy we are used to in Europe!

You are a fool to imagine that two billion muslims are all brothers. I am no brother of Indian muslims or those who accept the label of a terrorist, when they resist. The two billions make an ummah, which simply means that muslims need to show solidarity with one another if any one is persecuted on account of his FAITH! Today in the 21st century we have human rights, and when European muslims were being persecuted in former Jugoslavia, it was Bill Clinton and the christian armies of the USA and Europe who came to aid them against the onslaught of Serbian army. This is solidarity and this is what the Ibrahimi religions are based on. When Mother Theresa went to India to aid the sick,poor and hungary showed to Indians what the solidarity means to christians.

If I were a sikh and my family had suffered atrocities at the hands of the Indian Govt. or Indira Gandhi war machinery, I would have been worse off than even the dead wood and most probably landed in a forest? I am also aware of the steadfastness of sikhs as a Nation who in history did suffer at the hands of moghal monarchy. Nevertheless, I still expect them to show solidarity with minorites, which I have not observed on this blog. And then you guys have the audicity to call India a democracy, sending its citizens in foreign countries asking for asylum? I have admiration for Pakistan which has taken millions of Pashtoon Afghans into its territory who had to seek refuge for their families when the Russians invaded their land and later the USA army invasion of Afghanistan.
It would be a pity if you guys because of your malice towards Pakistan for variety of reasons, are compelling Bloggers like Umair to leave this spot which is concerned with Pakistan.
I do not agree with Umair that India is a threat for Pakistan. In my view the existance and the economic development and welfare of India hangs in the balance, depending upon Pakistan. The clock is ticking, for how long India can progress when its smaller but hostile neighbour is in possession of N weapons? You do not follow this thinking, then ask the Super Power startegists why it is of importance that Iran and North Korea do not have N’s?

Rex Minor

Posted by pakistan | Report as abusive

@Rehmat
What non-sense you are putting out!
I have simply stated what Kp and the agnostic have put out. I have observed nothing muslim about you, therefore in my eyes you are a Pseudo? You must be the first muslim who considers Hindus as ‘Believers’. Why do’nt you give the opportunity to the Hindus to claim this? You want India to be allowed to join OIC? Your arguments are weak and carry no substance. Do you wish to send Salman Rushdie in the conference?
There are two genuine, honest and sincere Pakistanis on this blog, namely Umair and Matrixx, and instead of learning their views, you guys have been mobbing on them. I know what a mob is as well as mobbing, which is a crime in democracies. You call India as a democracy, which it is not! Your ex colonial master has come out on this subject. You believe that holding parliamentary elections and forming a Govt. makes India as the largest democracy. Your country needs reforms, your judiciary is weak. I say shame on the country and shame on musllims who destroy or tolerate the destruction of worship houses and this goes for Pakistan military as well. Democracies keep their military in Barracks, do not display them in parliaments either like in the USA. Military is also powerful in the USA. This is not the democracy we are used to in Europe!

You are a fool to imagine that two billion muslims are all brothers. I am no brother of Indian muslims or those who accept the label of a terrorist, when they resist. The two billions make an ummah, which simply means that muslims need to show solidarity with one another if any one is persecuted on account of his FAITH! Today in the 21st century we have human rights, and when European muslims were being persecuted in former Jugoslavia, it was Bill Clinton and the christian armies of the USA and Europe who came to aid them against the onslaught of Serbian army. This is solidarity and this is what the Ibrahimi religions are based on. When Mother Theresa went to India to aid the sick,poor and hungary showed to Indians what the solidarity means to christians.

If I were a sikh and my family had suffered atrocities at the hands of the Indian Govt. or Indira Gandhi war machinery, I would have been worse off than even the dead wood and most probably landed in a forest? I am also aware of the steadfastness of sikhs as a Nation who in history did suffer at the hands of moghal monarchy. Nevertheless, I still expect them to show solidarity with minorites, which I have not observed on this blog. And then you guys have the audicity to call India a democracy, sending its citizens in foreign countries asking for asylum? I have admiration for Pakistan which has taken millions of Pashtoon Afghans into its territory who had to seek refuge for their families when the Russians invaded their land and later the USA army invasion of Afghanistan.
It would be a pity if you guys because of your malice towards Pakistan for variety of reasons, are compelling Bloggers like Umair to leave this spot which is concerned with Pakistan.
I do not agree with Umair that India is a threat for Pakistan. In my view the existance and the economic development and welfare of India hangs in the balance, depending upon Pakistan. The clock is ticking, for how long India can progress when its smaller but hostile neighbour is in possession of N weapons? You do not follow this thinking, then ask the Super Power startegists why it is of importance that Iran and North Korea do not have N’s?

Rex Minor

Posted by pakistan | Report as abusive

Pakistan: “I have admiration for Pakistan which has taken millions of Pashtoon Afghans into its territory who had to seek refuge for their families when the Russians invaded their land and later the USA army invasion of Afghanistan.”

Yeah, they do not want to go back to Afghanistan anymore. Many have settled in Pakistan. In Karachi there are clashes between Pashtuns and locals and Muhajirs. Each one has its own ghetto where no one else can dare go in. You can admire this brotherhood as much as you want. Here is some Pashtun love for Pakistan for you:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b4JnYmKlt mc&feature=related

Enjoy!

Posted by KPSingh01 | Report as abusive

@KP
If the sikh community had asked Pakistan Govt. for help, they could have beem welcome, instead of seeking asylum in cold Canada and Europe!

Rex Minor

Posted by pakistan | Report as abusive

@”If the sikh community had asked Pakistan Govt. for help, they could have beem welcome, instead of seeking asylum in cold Canada and Europe!” Posted by pakistan

Retard, are you even remotely aware of the plight of sikhs in Pakistan? And for the last time, all sikhs living in Europe & North America have not migrated there on grounds of political assylum. A small portion seeked assylum & this was back in the 80′s. So get your facts straight before babbling like an idiot & making a fool of yourself (although you have already established that).

Posted by Mortal1 | Report as abusive

@Mortal
So you guys have personal grievences or those against your community, by India and Pakistan. In other words you are very much biased! i understand your position. Now try and write a paragraph in english language which is civil and does not depend upon the foul language. Later you can visit Austria and Germany and try to find out how many sikh families took refuge there and how come India as a democracy is still recognised as a country from where Sikhs and Kashmiris besides others are eligible for political assylum.

Rex Minor

Posted by pakistan | Report as abusive

Pakistan: “If the sikh community had asked Pakistan Govt. for help, they could have beem welcome, instead of seeking asylum in cold Canada and Europe!”

Take a look at these:

http://www.venturousbikers.com/2010/02/t aliban-kill-2-sikhs-send-heads-to.html

http://canarytrap.in/2010/03/29/vanishin g-hindu-sikh-minorities-in-pakistan/

Posted by KPSingh01 | Report as abusive

@”So you guys have personal grievences or those against your community, by India and Pakistan. In other words you are very much biased!” Posted by pakistan

I’m not biased against Pakistan. The difference between your perspective & mine is that you are looking at this whole thing (sikhs, India & Pakistan) from the lens of 1984 whereas I’m looking at things from 2011 perspective. I’ve lived through the horrors of 1984 (although I was very young) & acknowledge that it was a very difficult time for my community in India. At that time, I agree that even Pakistan would have been a better place to live in, since it was stable & moderate. But today, things are completely different. A quarter of a century has passed since the unfortunate incident, a lot of things have changed in India & sikhs have moved on & are happy living in a multi cultural indian society. On the other hand, Pakistan’s law & order machinery has all but failed & all minorities, including sikhs, are targeted on a daily basis, leaving them completely vulnerable & helpless. If you want to term someone as “dead wood”, it would be the minorities is Pakistan & not sikhs is India.

@”Later you can visit Austria and Germany and try to find out how many sikh families took refuge”

Are you suggesting that most sikhs living in Austria & Germany have migrated there on grounds of political assylum? I have a few aquaintainces in those countries & will get that info from them. But from my experience, only a small percentage (less than 5%) of sikhs living in US, Canada, UK, Australia & other western countries have taken political assylum in those countries.

Posted by Mortal1 | Report as abusive

Pakistan: “If the sikh community had asked Pakistan Govt. for help, they could have beem welcome, instead of seeking asylum in cold Canada and Europe!”

There are people in my community who day dream of a united Punjab, made up of all Punjabis – Muslims, Sikhs, Christians and Hindus with Lahore as the capital. That is how Punjab was before a wily and opportunistic Gujerati lawyer split us up into factions. Punjabi culture overrides religion. For generations all the various religious groups lived side by side. We Punjabis are hurt even more by the partition of our land than that between India and Pakistan. Punjab suffered the worst during partition. People who lived like brothers, slaughtered each other. It is a very painful memory etched in the hearts of all Punjabis.

Even if partition had happened, I wish it never happened the way it did. I am sure Jinnah never wanted people to cross migrate and slaughter each other. I guess he wanted people to stay where they were and continue with their lives. If partition of Punjab had not happened with violence, I am sure we all could have lived as neighbors. However, in that violence, Muslims went on one side and the others went on the other side. We Sikhs have moved in with non-Muslims and have moved on.

During the 1970s and 19080s, things did look scary in India and we were wondering what would happen to us, especially the minorities. In 1984, we were really worried. There were spotty mutinies by the Sikhs. Many of our relatives moved abroad, especially Canada. And they still live with those memories.

Considering the conditions in Pakistan today and comparing India’s relatively better position, I’d say Sikhs are safer in India than in Pakistan. This is based on today’s perspective. India has focused on not being a religion based nation, even though it has the world’s largest diversity of religions. India has really made an effort in the secular direction and it tells very clearly. Most of the time I never become conscious of my identity. People do not care. One becomes conscious of his identity and feel the suspicious eyes around when minorities feel threatened. That fear is disappearing fast in India. At least that is my personal experience. If I were to choose a safe place on earth today, I’d say without any hesitation that it is Canada. I have no motivation to settle here, even though my wife’s side keeps pressing me to migrate.

India is the place to be today. I will miss all the spicy and colorful, never boring daily life in India. I need to hear the honks, I want to walk through the crowd, feel the traffic, bargain with the vegetable vendor, eat hot sambar and masala dosa, go on my Enfield motor bike and just complain and bitch about everything at the street corner in the evening. Nothing will give me that life elsewhere.

Posted by KPSingh01 | Report as abusive

KP Singh said:

> I need to hear the honks, I want to walk through the crowd, feel the traffic, bargain with the vegetable vendor, eat hot sambar and masala dosa

In fact, I have never met a Sardar who did not like sambar and masala dosa :-). I heard of one (a friend’s friend) who would ask for a glass of sambar and drink it up!

That’s our historical social contract, I guess – you (Sikhs) guard the borders, we (Madrasis) make sambar/masala dosa for you…

Regards,
Ganesh Prasad

Posted by prasadgc | Report as abusive

@Ganesh
“That’s our historical social contract, I guess – you (Sikhs) guard the borders, we (Madrasis) make sambar/masala dosa for you…”

And then there are people who say India is not a nation because of it whereas a billion people are so proud of this diversity. It happens only in India.

On that note I have never met a madraasi who does not cook great dosas and never met a sikh who does not have great sense of food. :)

Posted by 777xxx777 | Report as abusive

People who are brought up in non-secular settings can naver appreciate the diversity of India. Only an indian can enjoy a breakfast of uttampam, a lunch of gosht biryani, some dhokla & khandvi for evening snacks & tandoori chicken with daal for dinner.

Posted by Mortal1 | Report as abusive

@KP
What you are dreaming for and revere is still possible, even in your life time. Then remain optimisic and work for this ambition with your friends, your Govt. and a dialogue with people like Umair! Make the borders of India and Pakistan irrelevant, it has happened in Europe, it could happen in Asia as well. Do not tell the agonistic that Sikhs would like to settle in Kashmir! The bonds of people of a common culture and language are stronger than those of people having a common faith.
I would regard any country sick if the minorities are not protected. Those who call themselves muslims and look down upon minorities with discrimination have not got the slightest idea about Islam. We all need to learn and it is knowledge which makes us a better human. Europe has evolved into a great civilisation and have fully accepted one of God’s commandment, though shall not kill. Death penalty is no longer with us. Other countries who claim to be a civilised Nation should first adopt this law in their coutry.

Europe divide was made almost permanent because of different political systems(communism or capitalism), todays Europe is more or less socialism and market economy, not pure communism of Soviet Union or pure capitalism of the USA?

Rex Minor

Posted by pakistan | Report as abusive

Ganesh:”That’s our historical social contract, I guess – you (Sikhs) guard the borders, we (Madrasis) make sambar/masala dosa for you…”

Actually, we Sardars are trying to find out why you South Indians are so brainy. We figured it is Idli, Vada, Dosa and Sambar combination that does it. :-)

Posted by KPSingh01 | Report as abusive

Pakistan,

If you fix a standard for a nation to be healthy, where minorities feel protected, there is no healthy nation in this world. It never will be. People even look at those who moved into the neighborhood from another town differently until they really mix and blend in. That is the in born human nature.

All the ideal stuff is already in the constitution of many countries – all are equal, all have equal rights etc. But when it comes to practice of those principles, human nature comes in, and it has its own ways of dealing with reality.

Posted by KPSingh01 | Report as abusive

Rex Minor said:

> Do not tell the agonistic that Sikhs would like to settle in Kashmir!

I am not agonistic (i.e., in agony) that you keep dragging me into this, but I’m not amused either. I note that a few newcomers have also noticed your lack of honesty in debate and have called you on it. Try to be more intellectually honest.

Regards,
Ganesh Prasad

Posted by prasadgc | Report as abusive

@Rex

“What non-sense you are putting out!”
***I should ask you this question. In fact I noticed many posters have questioned your sense of logic.

“”I have observed nothing muslim about you, therefore in my eyes you are a Pseudo? You must be the first muslim who considers Hindus as ‘Believers’.”"
***Learn etiquette of posting. Don’t break your head to learn about my private business, religion or the size of my underwear. I really do not care whether you drink Johnie Walker and call yourself a Muslim.

You and Advani should meet and talk about “pseudo”. That would be some Einstein-Gandhi meeting.

Your religious intolerance is reflected in this statement of yours:
“Rehmat, a pseudo muslim who has almost assimilated in the Indian hindu society, …..”
***You are a self-professed peace seeker who has not a slightest idea about other religions but still attack them.

India is a country with majority Hindu, major minority being Muslims and a variety of other religions. It is secular by constitution and has not achieved that fully as yet. It has not been totally secular. Advani calls mainly Congressis who practice secularism as pseudosecular, and goes to Pakistan calls Jinnah a secular. You can call me whatever that does not change the facts. As I said earlier, note it again, it tells more about you.

“You must be the first muslim who considers Hindus as ‘Believers’. Why do’nt you give the opportunity to the Hindus to claim this?”
***People are sensitive as far as their religion or even lack of religion (atheists) is concerned. Look at you you are a soooo sensitive about religion. I am also sensitive where it matters. So are Hindus and Sikhs and everyone else. You may call India a Hindu country and attack me a Muslim lost in Hindu crowd. That is your childish interpretation. For a Hindu to live in harmony with people from other religion including Muslims, a Hindu better know the religious (among others) sensitivities of people of other religion too. Same holds true for a Muslim. I better not say something that needlessly provokes the person on religious grounds. A knowledge what their sense of GOD and belief is important. I try to understand what their views are.

You can brag about Muslim’s idea of “belief” like kindergarten kid, I see beyond that without “risking” Islam so that “peaceful” people like you do not pull out swords. In India, we have Hindus (killing 2000 in Gujarat), Sikhs (recent violence in Punjab and during Sikh militancy time) and Muslims (blowing Hindus in Gujarat and collaborating with bomb planters) of your kind in India. They are all very religious like you in their own sense.

I have a very nice BUT atheist friend who will not let faith word be used in any sense about him, such is his aversion to religion. Fine with me and we get along well. For anyone in India to get along with other we need to know how a Hindu thinks. I know it and you do not. I know how a Sikh thinks religiously, you have no idea. You want peace but ready to have this gag ready for anyone who tells what a Hindu’s idea of GOD is and look at an atheist and agnostic with contempt, you burn in your fire.

“Agnostics” like 777 and Ganesh, most likely, are suitable to tell you what a Hindu’s view is. Perpahaps more suitable than many other Hindus to tell you what a Hindu’s idea of GOD is. They are not passively religious or pretend to be religious by default, and clearly have given a thought and call themselves agnostics. Fine.

You have seen me having discussion with 777 (he knows about Hinduism and if I recall read Koran too) about what a Hindu’s idea of GOD is. You called me “out of the realm of Islam” at that time since I talked about trinity in Hinduism and in Christianity and you have continued since then on that path about attacking me. I have seen Indians here tell you that Hindus do believe in GOD. While I understand Muslim interpretation, “believer” for a Hindu has come up when you attacked Hinduism as non-believers. Follow this logic. Why would you do that? You were told that Hindus do believe i.e.., to “believe in XYZ GOD of Hindus”. I think at that point the discussion should have stopped. You are inviting trouble by labeling someone, who thinks he/she believes in GOD (their own version), as non-believer.

While Ahl al-Kitab (People of book) does not make Hindus “believers” by Muslims standards, but it includes Muslims, Hindus, Jews, Christians and Parsis in one bracket. This is an effort to create more religious understanding and tolerance. This thing is lost on you.

You have a habit of attacking people obliquely like you did to Ganesh and then perhaps for me the following:
“Those who call themselves muslims and look down upon minorities with discrimination have not got the slightest idea about Islam.”

“You want India to be allowed to join OIC? Your arguments are weak and carry no substance. Do you wish to send Salman Rushdie in the conference?”
***So you are saying Indian Muslims are not part of Ummah, if OIC is anything close to that. Then why are you worried about Indian Muslims? Do not try to melodramatic about Rushdie. I hope you have not passed the deleterious genetic information to your progeny.

Peace and get some life!

Posted by rehmat | Report as abusive

Rehmat,

That’s telling him! (I’m not expecting any change, though.)

Regards,
Ganesh Prasad

Posted by prasadgc | Report as abusive

@Rehmat
I guess in your note you were thinking loudly to yourself!
I do not usualy involve myself in other religions, nor have any patience with those who relate acts of individual muslims in the world with Islam. I have also zero tolerence for the mob or any one one who speaks for the mob.

The Indian mob I found on this blog is the most aggressive and outspoken one to the extent of using foul language. I have not seen any restraints or sensitivity that you are talking about, forcing even the most talented and sincere Pakistanis to think about leaving this place. I do not want to generalise but I have been warned that Indian citizens do not generaly take ‘NO’ for an answer and want to keep on arguing on their point of view. This subject is closed now. Have fun in this world so long as you can.

Rex Minor

Posted by pakistan | Report as abusive

@Rex

“I guess in your note you were thinking loudly to yourself!”
***No I was talking to the wall.

“I do not usualy involve myself in other religions, nor have any patience with those who relate acts of individual muslims in the world with Islam.”
***So are you making this blog an exception that you poke at other religions. Your consistent laughable comments on Sikh Gurus is just one example and unending Hindu/believer another and you do not leave even agnostics alone. I guess Mortal/KPS have quite a bit of patience with you saying what you have been saying about their Gurus.

Prejuidice and narrow sample size will do no good to your conclusions about Indians. Conclusion is already written in that case.

On a serious note, meditation (which you like) might help you in reorienting yourself, considering that by now a number of posters have questioned your wisdom and thought process. If you do not care about that, then you are wasting your time.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Ganesh

I am also not hopeful, but you never know.

Posted by rehmat | Report as abusive

Pakistan: “Make the borders of India and Pakistan irrelevant, it has happened in Europe, it could happen in Asia as well.”

Do not tell this to your Pakistani comrades. This is the last thing they want to hear. And they are building up nukes to keep the division as wide as possible. And in today’s world, no one wants to have open borders with Pakistan which is getting filled up with frenzied religious bigots.

“Do not tell the agonistic that Sikhs would like to settle in Kashmir!”

If borders are irrelevant according to your above statement, why is it wrong for Sikhs or anyone else to settle in Kashmir? Aren’t Sikhs human?

“The bonds of people of a common culture and language are stronger than those of people having a common faith.”

In other words you support the idea that dividing nations along religious lines is wrong. Please tell that to your Pakistani compatriots.

Posted by KPSingh01 | Report as abusive

@Rehmat
Man, cool off…I can understand ur feeling for Rex calling u a pseudo muslim but talking to a wall will not result in anything productive. He has proven himself to be a bigot beyond any doubt and an India hater as well. The fool does not have even the slighest idea how google search engine works but he is quick to say google shows 693,000 number of results for “Indian Caste System” without wondering if all of those are really relevant and are actually the ones he is looking for or not. So I would say just laugh at him and move on.

Posted by 777xxx777 | Report as abusive

A suggestion to Reuters: You should provide the commenters with an “Ignore user” button instead of the useless “Report as abusive”, so that we can all just completely ignore the mumbling rantings of a particular bigoted cave dweller.

On second thoughts, the comedy is sometimes too good to pass!

Posted by Mortal1 | Report as abusive

Mortal1: “we can all just completely ignore the mumbling rantings of a particular bigoted cave dweller.”

For all you know this guy could be sending out his rants from a cave in Tora Bora. It is very easy to make things appear as through messages are sent from Germany or US, while sitting in a busy street in South Punjab. Internet can provide all the deceptive cover. Some guys might have learned German or might have visited there for sometime. Based on this guy’s writing, it is very clear that he has no exposure to the real culture of where he claims to be living. His analysis is primitive and he calls NY Times and other reputed news papers as trash. He does not say what he relies on for news and information. And invariably it is heavily pro-Pakistan in expression. I think this guy is writing from a Madrasa somewhere in Peshawar or in a nearby area. Who knows how one can trace one’s origin of posting in blogs of this kind? With cloud computing capability, it is difficult to tell where exactly one is and whether his or her name is real or a fake one. One has to read the underlying sentiments in expression, their consistency etc to derive that kind of information about them. Based on what he has been presenting here, I can tell this guy is not living in Germany.

Posted by KPSingh01 | Report as abusive

@777

I really do not care what Rex says about me. I cannot change him and only variable here is me. I can write and explain why I am the way I am and hope good sense prevails. I think he needs to make friends with people of other religion and from different cultures, sooner than later.

It is interesting to see that in all these debates, most of the energy is dissipated in requesting the other person to have a common sense and not misinterpret or distort the meaning. Mentioning a good thing about majority is interpreted as anti-minority, talking about support for govt action against terrorists is taken as supporting the govt and opposing the innocent minority, criticizing the foreign policy of Pakistan is considered to be anti-Pakistan, as if Pakistanis are being hated. Then my words taken out of context on Sikhs and politics make Rex say PM Singh is the last Sikh leader, but I tell you he won’t say Gilani of Kashmir as last Kashmiri.

I am just an “observer”.

Posted by rehmat | Report as abusive

@”For all you know this guy could be sending out his rants from a cave in Tora Bora. It is very easy to make things appear as through messages are sent from Germany or US, while sitting in a busy street in South Punjab.”
Posted by KPSingh01

KP, you’d be surprised at how many of these “mental cave dwellers” are actually living in the west. They might apeear completely normal to the people around them but they have a lot of frustration & rage bottled in. The ones that get educated & assimilated are just fine but the one’s that refuse to do so, become frustrated & radicalized. If they were living in Pakistan, they can freely vent out their anger but since they live in the west, there’s very little that they can do to demonstrate their real emotions & the internet is the only medium, which enables them to do so. This is especially very true since 9/11 & the GWOT started. From my experience, I have found Pakistanis living in the west (especially UK) to be more antagonistic than the ones living in Pakistan.

Posted by Mortal1 | Report as abusive

KP Singh said:

> For all you know this guy could be sending out his rants from a cave in Tora Bora.

He’s probably on the level about being in Germany. His typos sometimes have a ‘z’ where a ‘t’ should be, and this suggests a European keyboard where the top row goes ‘qwertz’ rather than our ‘qwerty’. And in spite of his obvious loyalty to the ‘Muslim cause’, his quotes tend to be of Kant and Voltaire rather than Islamic sources, suggesting a European schooling.

I get called ‘curious’ and ‘inquisitive’ for such amateur detective work, in addition to all the other terms he uses for me (agnostic with no commitment to morals, ethics, etc), – although ‘bigot’ to him is ‘foul language’! I must admit I’m very curious to see what this character looks like :-).

Regards,
Ganesh Prasad

Posted by prasadgc | Report as abusive

Guys

Love it or hate it, it is hard to ignore Rex. At the other entry, I see new posters after this guy’s sense of logic.

I am feeling sympathetic to him. Kind of!

Posted by rehmat | Report as abusive

@KP and others

Once again you guys have started blowing in the air!! After all we are all responsible somehow for our success or misery! try to live and let others live if you can!

To your rhetoric and emotions, I have no more comments.

Rex Minor

Posted by pakistan | Report as abusive

PS
Religion gives us the values we cherish and becomes part of our character, whereas, for our harmonius living together we need a common culture and this I am afraid I do not share with you guys. Have fun in your life.

Rex Minor

Posted by pakistan | Report as abusive

@”for our harmonius living together we need a common culture and this I am afraid I do not share with you guys” Posted by pakistan

A common culture is NOT needed for people to live together harmoniously & a prime example of that is New York city, where I’ve lived for the past 20 yrs. Here, you’ll find people of every race, religion & nationality living & working side by side in peace & harmony. It’s a cultural melting pot in every sense of the term. Another good example would be Mumbai (where I’m originally from), where people from different parts of India & varied cultures live together harmoniously.
If someone has a problem adjusting with people of different cultures, religions or nationalities, it’s a personal defect of that individual & has nothing to do with his culture. No religion or culture teaches intolerance.

Posted by Mortal1 | Report as abusive

Rex Minor said:

> for our harmonius living together we need a common culture

And therein lie the seeds of the two-nation theory. A purist or absolutist philosophy would lead one to believe that this statement is self-evident. Those who are a product of a diverse, hybrid and dynamic environment would not understand this logic.

The pluralist democracies continue to exist and flourish (with only occasional hiccups) because they don’t see their pluralism as an impediment to coexistence. They see it as a strength. (Those who do not understand pluralism then see pseudo-Muslims, deadwood and people with no commitment to morals and ethics.)

The societies that aspired for purity (‘Pak’ means pure) have still not found that sought-for harmony. Rather, they continue to find more internal divisions among their people. Ultimately, it’ll be every man for himself in such a society, because the individual is the smallest possible group.

Congratulations! You have astutely summed up the history of the subcontinent in a single sentence with your unwitting wisdom.

Regards,
Ganesh Prasad

Posted by prasadgc | Report as abusive

”for our harmonius living together we need a common culture and this I am afraid I do not share with you guys”
***Then how can one manage in a multi-cultural society in Germany. Chancellor of Germany has mentioned multi-culti has failed in Germany.

Seeing another culture from a distant and not have contact with it creates more problems.

There is research on it.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-1 2090328

Although the article talks about religion here, it can be extended to cultural level independent of religion. It is just a matter of contact, Germans had least contact with Muslims historically as compared to other nations and Germans harbor highest level of negative attitude towards Muslims.

Let me quote:

“One of the researchers, Alexander Yendell, told the BBC: “Germans have less contact with Muslims than the French, the Dutch and the Danes and we also found that if Germans have contacts with Muslims, they find them pleasant”

Posted by rehmat | Report as abusive

@Rex
“try to live and let others live”

This is the front line slogan of Jainism and Bhudhism (and this principle was vastly accepted by hindu majority as well,) both of which came into existence around 200 years before Christianity and Islam came into being. So I hope now you understand that morality is not propriety of Abrahamic religions only. And it is good to know other cultures and religions as well to increase one’s knowledge and knowing other religions does not translate into disrespecting one’s own.

Posted by 777xxx777 | Report as abusive

“for our harmonius living together we need a common culture” Posted by pakistan

This is the basic difference between you & the guy you like to call “pseudo muslim”. You would have a problem adjusting with poeple of different cultures & faiths and living in multi-cultural societies, whereas he would have no problems living with anyone & anywhere.

Posted by Mortal1 | Report as abusive

@Mrtal
For pete’s sake, do not take my words out of context. I was simply supporting KP who is fond of Punjabi culture. Faith is a personal matter, but a culture has very little to do with religion. I would not feel comfortable to live in a non-European culture either.
You are comfortable in new York, I felt somehow choked in NY, and flew out not spending more than a night or two stay.
I am now beginning to understand that Mr Jinnah’s most probably intention was to create a separate country to assure a dignity for muslims, which apparently in his view was at stake. In my view he made a mega error to accept the split of Punjab and Bengal.
The Congress and the muslim league parties could have taken the example of Switzerland, independent Cantons with their own language and administration, but a weak central Govt. My own view is that it is still possible if people of the land want peace and prosperity for the future generations. Just put aside the faith, which had been and could always be used by the political elites. I would have also voted for Romney who openly declared that he is a mormon and would always cherish his ancestors’ faith.

Rex Minor

Posted by pakistan | Report as abusive

@777
Well said! I do not want to debate religions. tell us simply if the caste system has been deleted from Hinduis. I do not mean the Indian law, which prohibits discrimination on account of caste system!
Please read KP’s Feb 1 post, I agree with him the bond of a culture such as Punjabi culture. I have seen in the UK and Germany, both muslims and sikhs coming together with their families on a pre-announced sunday in sport stadium. Try not to put faith and culture as one entity! I know there are some who do and this makes me feel very uncomfortable.

Rex Minor

PS
We are in the “Knowledge age” and have the opportunity to learn each other’s opinion, but calling names certainly indicte that the guy is not on this blog to learn but to teach. This is not bad but he should not underestimate others and then try to patronise. Admittedly, sometimes I do quote others to learn about the activity of the intelligence community on this blog!!

Posted by pakistan | Report as abusive

@Hey Clever Bloggers
Religion and culture is not a single entity!
let us try to listen, listen and listen others to understand them.
Many new generation of turks in Germany have problems with German language in schools. Some youth of Turkish and Arab origin are not fully integrating(whatever it means) in the communities.
Muticulti experience according to the christian democratic party(currently in central Govt.) has not been successful. The opposition parties do not agree with it and blames the Govt. Politics in action, but to be honest the problem is there.

Bonapart President of France, the son of a Hungarian immigrant is biased against French citizens, whose parents and grand parents came from their former colonies. He is also against Turkey entry into the European Union, since it were the Turks who ruled his family for centuries in Hungary. The problem in france is nothing new, except for the Burqah clad women from the Gulf countries who invade every now and then Paris to visit the Disney land and then spent millions in shopping. He is also not happy that the Saudi Monarch has a chateau in Paris with a direct access to the airport. The French President does not have this privileage!

David Cameron is new on the scene and just learning to be a bad boy and Pseudo anglo saxon, who used to ride a bicycle and has now a limusine to take him to 10 Downing Street. What has been happening is nothing new. He is just trying to get some votes from the right in case the liberals depart from the coalition Govt.
Now here is the surprise, Moses the 2nd has problems with all these leaders, since the reset of the USA foreign policy of a love affair with the muslim poulation is now in full swing!
Not to forget that Turkey has the largest Nato force after the USA and has been providing the security for Europe for more than half a century.

Rex Minor

PS Sorry I could not refer you to NYtimes or Washington Post, since several local papers of the three countries would be needed to understand the background. I deliberately refrained from indicating the faith of the three leaders not to upset you.

Posted by pakistan | Report as abusive

@Rex

“Many new generation of turks in Germany have problems with German language in schools. Some youth of Turkish and Arab origin are not fully integrating(whatever it means) in the communities.”
***hat means their interpersonal skills become defective like yours when talking to a person of another community. Remember you find it hard to ta

@@Hey Clever Bloggers
Religion and culture is not a single entity!

***Agreed, religion and culture are different creatures. Do you think it is religion or the culture that is said to be a problem in Germany in context of “multi-culti” failure? Multi-culti indicates culture but the major emphasis has been on religion, based on news reports and research.

For the sake of easy reading could you kindly name the person’s name as the world knows than Bonaparte etc, for example. If you think it reflects your deeper knowledge of the country and person, it is up to you.

Coming back to religion/culture debate, Indians, but not Pakistanis, would agree with you (a point you mentioned earlier) that creating a country based on religion does not work (Please correct me if I am misquoting you). Going back to your earlier statement, you indicated that your interpersonal skills become defective with person of another culture like Indians here. Does this mean you would like to have a country based upon culture, but not religion? How do you think this religion/culture debate is useful for Kashmir issue, the entry under which we are discussing all this.

Posted by rehmat | Report as abusive

@Rehmat
You are proving to be very persistent! You do not give up despite the fact that we have different chemistry. What a waste of energy?Perhaps you would be kind enough to tell me what I have been saying about Gurus. I would not even offer a drink to a Sikh out of respect. This I learnt in my life very early from a muslim gentleman. I will not hesitate for wrong words.

Now why is it that you do not understand a simple sentence in English language- PM Singh is the last sikh leader? How can I know if the next PM would also be a Sikh? Besides you clearly stated that Sikhs are not good leaders or something of that sort? I cannot call him PM Singh the first, since the second one has not taken the office yet.
I know that from my point of view you guys are too emotional but very clever. Perhaps if you are a bit cool and not trying to express your meanings for my words and not always play the role of an advocate, I would not hesitate to express my opinions.O’h, I better be careful, you guys are too fast in allocating labels and passing judgements like a lynching jury. The problem is that I could retaliate and afterwards I would feel sorry.
Therefore my principle has always been that if I cannot add something useful on this blog and you are staying put, then I should break off the diplomatic relations. I have suggested for Pakistan Govt.to do the same with India, instead of throwing accusations at each other.

Rex Minor

Posted by pakistan | Report as abusive

PS
I shall not hesitate to apologise for choosing wrong words!

Posted by pakistan | Report as abusive

@Rex

Initial part of my post was truncated.

Here I go again:

“Many new generation of turks in Germany have problems with German language in schools. Some youth of Turkish and Arab origin are not fully integrating(whatever it means) in the communities.”
***Do you really do not know what “integration” means? That means their interpersonal skills become defective like yours when talking to a person of another community. Remember you find it hard to have According to me, it means do not let your roots come in way of everything you do. That does not mean lose identity. That is my understanding in general, you should know the specifics in Germany.

Posted by rehmat | Report as abusive

@Rex Minor: As always, you’re all over the place without making much sense. I’m sorry but I can’t waste my time on this. You REALLY need to work on your writing & communication skills man!

Posted by Mortal1 | Report as abusive

@Rex

Call me advocate devil’s advocate, I do not care. I agree I do not have a chemistry woth you. But then I am not trying to have an affair here that I worry about “chemistry”, right? If you write something which I feel I should respond, I will. I am not trying to attach a carboxyl group on your tail bone that I need a good chemistry.

BTW, If chemistry is your prob, then you are stuck since you have that problem with everyone here. No one has a free pass to write whatever, uninterrupted.

NOW, let me be nice to you and respond to your questions, the best I can.

“Perhaps you would be kind enough to tell me what I have been saying about Gurus.”
***You said Sikh Gurus teach them violence. To a person who has had the opportunity to read about them, that is clearly wrong statement and knowing nothing. In fact, you should have known the answer if you were curious enough and googled after being corrected for your comments by Mortal or KPS. I know a bit about Sikhs too, at the risk of being thrown out of the “realm of Islam”. Hopefully not, if you know that the foundation of that temple was laid by Muslim Pir. So if you throw me out, Pir goes as well. You said Sikh Gurus teach them violence. This is not a fact if you would had the opportunity to read about them. Among all 10 Gurus, it was the last Guru which intoduced weapon as part of the attire for Sikhs due to what he felt the need of the times (it is not mandatory). Remaining nine were into spirituality, if I have to make a generalization. This is not to say the last one was not into spirituality. But this much is sufficient for now.

“I would not even offer a drink to a Sikh out of respect. This I learnt in my life very early from a muslim gentleman. I will not hesitate for wrong words.”
***Would you be kind enough to reciprocate what does it mean not to offer a drink?

“Now why is it that you do not understand a simple sentence in English language- PM Singh is the last sikh leader? How can I know if the next PM would also be a Sikh? Besides you clearly stated that Sikhs are not good leaders or something of that sort? I cannot call him PM Singh the first, since the second one has not taken the office yet.”
***It sounds funny when you tell someone about English comprehemsion.

I said in context of Khalistan, which was being discussed at that time. I made a statement with my knowledge of Akali Dal infighting that if they were to lead Khalsitan, it is good it did not happen. BTW, Mortal and I discussed about it and were clear about it. Since you do not know these details of Sikh political parties and people, you should stay out of it.

This is funny logic for putting out a last Sikh statement “How can I know if the next PM would also be a Sikh?”.

Point here is you are using what I said and using it for PM Singh. I know why? This is your OCD. you tend to attach something after everyperson. sarkozy “the Jew” “son of Hungarian immigrant” etc…

Posted by rehmat | Report as abusive

@Rex
“tell us simply if the caste system has been deleted from Hinduis”

Hinduism like Christianity has been a very progressive religion and has kept pace with changing times. Caste system anyway was not preached by religion itself but was practised by old Indian culture. And religion was used as a tool to further this evil. And since cultures also change with time so is caste system getting eradicated in our times. May be at a slow pace to your taste (to mine as well) but things are moving in right direction. As for religion Lord Krishna says “I am everywhere and in everyone.” So when same God is everywhere and resides in everyone then how religion can preach to discriminate between any two humans. Nowhere in Hinduism is it ‘written’ to practice caste system it has just been an old cultural ritual where high kings used to create divisions among ordinary people to gain their political goals. Unification of India under Brits (and NOT your favourite Persian rulers, they made it worst in fact) galvanised whole of India and later strong anti-discriminatory laws of independent India along with a modern education led to further reduction in discrimination on basis of caste. Come to India and talk to any educated 20 year old and then you would know if future of India has any place for caste system. Period.

“Try not to put faith and culture as one entity! I know there are some who do and this makes me feel very uncomfortable”

You are the one who does it most consistently by keep on poking Hindus with caste system evil. For last time Mr Moron, engrave this in your dumb head that caste system has got nothing to do with religion and is an old Indian practise which is gradually losing its place in new India.

Posted by 777xxx777 | Report as abusive

777xxx777: “You are the one who does it most consistently by keep on poking Hindus with caste system evil. For last time Mr Moron, engrave this in your dumb head that caste system has got nothing to do with religion and is an old Indian practise which is gradually losing its place in new India.”

I think these guys have grown up with little or no exposure to other religions. They have been brought up with a mentality that it is a great taboo to learn about other cultures and religions. With that limited knowledge, they see everything defined exactly the same way as their religion. It will be difficult for them to look at a pluralistic religious system which is not based on one founder or one God or one religious book. It is incomprehensible to them. So they end up mixing everything as one religion that is against theirs. They cannot differentiate between social issues and religious issues. Caste system is like racial prejudice in European cultures. It is social with religious sanction twisted to accommodate it. Anyway, you are massaging a corpse here.

Posted by KPSingh01 | Report as abusive

@777
Almost 700,000 records spring up with a google click and you are accusing me of poking hindus with a caste system. My read of some of the articles written by hindus was not very pleasant! This reminds me of John Mccain who produced a 100 page of medical history during election time and said that he has a clean bill of health. Let us close the subject, if you do’nt mind.

Rex Minor

Posted by pakistan | Report as abusive

Rex Minor,

Stop being intellectually dishonest. I asked you to Google specific terms which would tell you the progress made in India in the area of caste relations:

Before you talk about caste again, I expect you to do some research (not from stomach or guts please) on the following terms:

Mandal
SC/ST
OBC
Mayawati
BSP
DK and DMK

You refuse to read these items, and insist on pointing to articles that reinforce your existing point of view. This is dishonest of you (now don’t call that “foul language”).

Regards,
Ganesh Prasad

Posted by prasadgc | Report as abusive

@Rex
Google on “racist german” produced 3010000 results
Google on “islamic terrorism” produced 6,610,000 results
Google on “terrorist muslim” produced 6,610,000 results

Now apply your great intelligence on these results.

Posted by 777xxx777 | Report as abusive

@Rex
Google on “racist german” produces 3,010,000 results
Google on “islamic terrorism” produces 6,610,000 results
Google on “terrorist muslim” produces 18,700,000 results

Now apply your great intelligence on these results and let us have the benefit of your conclusions. I can go on and on with google. Dumb head Moron do you have any idea how google search engine actually works and operates. Often only first 50 or so results are actually useful. And if those 50 say something about caste system then please read again what I said that some people in power in ancient times wanted to keep it and same is happening now that some in power want caste system so as to achieve their mean political goals but religion DOES NOT sanction any kind of discrimination. When it comes to Islam all media is Jew controlled and when it comes to other religions then Google records all of a sudden become a measure of things. You really are a real dumb head. Never seen such a narrow minded fool in my life.

Yes close the subject because you anyway don’t even try to understand other person’s point of view.

Posted by 777xxx777 | Report as abusive

@777
There is only one soul which could tell you whether you are a moron r plain born dumb, and that is you and only you. And if the answer is in negative then we have nothing more to exchange.

Rex Minor

Posted by pakistan | Report as abusive

[...] many details of that accord had yet to be worked out and even Musharraf admits that it would have taken a great deal of political courage from leaders on both sides of the border  to translate that agreement in principle into [...]

[...] the region irrelevant while also accepting there could be no exchange of territory.   According to former Pakistan president Pervez Musharraf, who was involved in negotiating the roadmap,  that draft agreement was still some way off from being [...]

[...] many details of that accord had yet to be worked out and even Musharraf admits that it would have taken a great deal of political courage from leaders on both sides of the border  to translate that agreement in principle into [...]

[...] – the current civilian government in Pakistan has no authority to deliver on a deal which even Musharraf admitted had yet to be worked out in detail. The Pakistan Army continues to dominate foreign policy, and Hafez Saeed continues to insist that [...]