Pakistan: Now or Never?
Perspectives on Pakistan
Army, Allah and America: on Pakistani pitfalls and the future of Egypt
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All countries are unique and comparing two of the world’s most populous Muslim countries, Egypt and Pakistan, is as risky as comparing Britain to France at the time of the French Revolution. But many of the challenges likely to confront Egypt as it emerges from the mass protests against the 30-year-rule of President Hosni Mubarak are similar to those Pakistan has faced in the past, and provide at least a guide on what questions need to be addressed. In Pakistan, they are often summarised as the three A’s — Army, Allah and America.
Both have powerful armies which are seen as the backbone of the country; both have to work out how to accommodate political Islam with democracy, both are allies of America, yet with people who resent American power in propping up unpopular elites.
As my Reuters colleague Alastair Lyon writes, Egypt’s sprawling armed forces — the world’s 10th biggest and more than 468,000-strong — have been at the heart of power since army officers staged the 1952 overthrow of the monarchy. Mubarak’s announcement that he was naming his intelligence chief Omar Suleiman as vice-president was seen as a move towards an eventual, military-approved handover of power. And Egyptian protesters have sometimes tried to see the army as their ally — an institution that puts country first before personal gain.
Yet armies, as Pakistan has discovered over its many years of on-again off-again military rule, are not designed for democracy. They are designed to be efficient, and with that comes the hierarchy and obedience to authority that would seem alien to many of those out on the streets of Cairo.
In his book about the Pakistan Army, defence expert Brian Cloughley writes about how the British general, the Duke of Wellington, responded to democracy in his first cabinet meeting as prime minister: ”An extraordinary affair. I gave them their orders and they wanted to stay and discuss them.” The story is told as part of an argument about why the Pakistan Army has never been particularly successful at running the country.
“All Pakistan’s army coups have been bloodless, successful and popular – but popular only for a while,” he writes. “The trouble is that military people are usually quite good at running large organisations, even civilian ones, but generally fail to understand politics and government, and the give-and-take so necessary in that esoteric world.”
It is a lesson that may yet need to be learned in Egypt. As Amil Khan wrote from Islamabad in his Twitter feed, “Love the way Pakistani twitterers puzzled by Egyptians’ trust in army. Guys, you’re kinda similar, but kinda different.”
Then there is political Islam. Both Pakistan and Egypt have powerful religious parties which have their roots in Islamist movements born out of Muslim resentment against British colonial rule. In Pakistan, the Jamaat-e-Islami, founded in then British India, has, along with other religious parties played a disproportionately significant role in setting the agenda which goes well beyond their weak showing at the ballot box. It has reached the point where no government — either civilian or military — has dared challenge them on issues of faith. When Salman Taseer, governor of Punjab province, was shot dead by his own security guard earlier this month over his opposition to the country’s blasphemy laws, his killer was celebrated as a hero. Few dared speak out and most of Taseer’s colleagues in the ruling Pakistan People’s Party (PPP) were quick to insist there would no changes to the laws.
Many attribute the grip of religious parties on Pakistani society to the use of Islam as a means of uniting the country’s different ethnic groups, to past support by its military for mujahideen fighting the Soviets in Afghanistan and then the Indians in Kashmir, and to the Islamicisation policies of General Zia-ul-Haq. But over the years every politician has made use of the religious parties to bolster their support, including PPP founder Zulfiqar Ali Bhutto, who declared the minority Ahmadi sect as non-Muslims in 1974, and was later deposed and hanged by Zia in 1979.
In particular, argues Manan Ahmed in this essay titled “Pakistan’s crisis can’t simply be explained by religion”, Pakistan politicised reverence for the Prophet Mohammed. “This emergence of the Prophet as a centralising and orienting raison d’etre for Pakistan, however, was not merely an organic outgrowth of a religiously inclined society, it was a deliberate state policy, aided by Islamist parties, to mould public faith. The blasphemy riots of the 1950s, when the Ahmadi sect was violently resisted by the Jama’at-i Islami, had taught one clear lesson to the religious right: the veneration of Muhammad was great political theatre with infinite malleability for nearly every segment of the Pakistani population.”
Unlike Pakistan, Egypt has more ethnic homogeneity and, with its large Coptic population, greater religious diversity so – on paper at least – political Islam would be less obvious as a unifying force. The Muslim Brotherhood, founded like the Jamaat-e-Islami in opposition to British rule, has taken a low profile in the Egyptian protests, though as former Reuters bureau chief in Cairo Jonathan Wright argues in his blog, this may be a deliberately calibrated stance.
“The Brotherhood, like Islamist groups in many Arab countries, has cold feet about governing. It does not feel it is ready. This is reflected in its official strategy of concentrating on a political reform agenda which it shares with many other groups – free and fair elections, rule of law, a new constitution with checks and balances and so on. What the Brotherhood wants most in the short term is the freedom to organize and promote its ideas in a democratic environment, regardless of who is in government. The Brotherhood believes that, given freedom and time, it can win over Egyptians to its long-term agenda.”
The Pew Global Attitudes Survey released in December also suggested that Egyptians might actually be more in favour of Islam playing a role in society than Pakistanis. Ninety-five percent of Egyptians questions said it was good for Islam to play a large role in politics, compared to 88 percent of Pakistanis. “At least three-quarters of Muslims in Egypt and Pakistan say they would favor making each of the following the law in their countries: stoning people who commit adultery, whippings and cutting off of hands for crimes like theft and robbery and the death penalty for those who leave the Muslim religion,” it said.
Finally there is America, which has propped up military rulers in both countries and used generous quantities of American aid to buy support first against communism and then against militant Islam. In Pakistan, the United States is already struggling to foster civilian, democratic rule at a time when it is deeply distrusted. It is likely to face similar challenges in Egypt if it chooses, and manages, to go down that route.
Moreover, while the United States was able to underpin the growth of stable, secular democracies in Europe following World War Two with huge amounts of trade and aid, the world nowadays is still recovering from financial crisis. And as Pakistan’s Dawn newspaper noted, the world’s Muslim populations face faster-than-average growth rates at a time of increasing global competition for resources. At least some of the unrest in the Middle East, especially in Tunisia, was fuelled by anger over rising food prices. It is not an easy time for any country to win over people looking for an end to poverty and unemployment.
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I hope the turmoils stay local and confined to the different countries instead of spreading across the region. Tunisia influenced Egypt. Now if Egypt manages to oust Mubarak, there might be a similar revolt in Iran where theocracy has ruled and the new generation of Iranians do not want to be controlled by them. What I worry about is the temptation to get engaged in a war to deflect public demands in Iran. Ahmedinijad might try his nukes on Israel if he sees things getting out of hand. Israel will be getting very nervous about the recent developments in the Middle East. I hope they do not do anything pre-emptive which can backfire on them. The world is entering a crisis phase for sure.
Real problems need real solutions, what i like about American democracy is its beuty in promising positive change, making legislation to tackle people’s issues. Then they always remind themselves of the promises made to their people and work to deliver.
On the other hand the dictatorial regimes of Egypt, Tunisia, Algeria, Yemen etc are supported by US. Advocates of democracy have become biggest allies of dictators, this is height of hypocricy. street power is the only way to bring about the change and successful transition of power where it is impossible to transfer power peacefully. The Egyptian street protests are no different to 2008 lawyers movements that ousted President Musharraf in Pakistan.
One more favour that US must do is to cut off all aid to Pakistan and Egypt, that will act as a spur, cut dependence on foreign aid and push these countries to create sustainable economies, free of corruption and ensure good governance. Most importantly, US must stop supporting corrupt governments including that of President Zardari, either they put their act together or leave office and let honest people come in.
Bravo Egypt, your cause is just and your movement is great you have the support of everyone in the world. Push for change.
Seinfeld fans will recall “Relationship George” and “Independent George”.
“If Relationship George walks through that door, he will kill Independent George!”
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SxuYdzs4S S8
Reuters provides the venue for another sitcom, because we have a Reasonable Umair and a Jingoistic Umair. The above post is by Reasonable Umair. Just when we begin to relax and start discussing amicably, Jingoistic Umair will walk through that door, kill Reasonable Umair and start another fight.
What’s the bet?
Regards,
Ganesh Prasad
The article compares apples and oranges to use a cliche…but more importantly seriously under estimates the problems faced by pakistan.
Egyptian is an ethnic identity. Pakistan is political Islamic identity…Political Islam was what led to its birth…and political Islam has grown to what it is today in pakistan.
No point in repeating same old mythologies about Zia caused Islamization etc..
Mohd Ali Jinnah said Pakistan came into existence the day the first Indian converted to Islam..
Here is another Jinnah quote…please tell when Islamization started:
“It is my very ultimate wish that when I die, my conscience and my Allah may testify that, Jinnah never betrayed Islam.”
@”Seinfeld fans will recall “Relationship George” and “Independent George”.” Posted by prasadgc
One of my favorite episodes, “the worlds collide theory”
! If you have not seen the show “Curb your enthusiasm”, I suggest you rent the DVDs. The George character is continued & enacted by it’s creator Larry David.
As for our friend Umair, I think he’s an extremely emotional person & occasionally gets frustrated & angry with what’s going on in his country. That’s usually when “belligerent Umair” makes an appearance instead of the “reasonable Umair”.
I suppose I should have said “Belligerent Umair” instead of “Jingoistic Umair”. Thanks for the suggestion.
Regards,
Ganesh Prasad
Mortal/Ganesh
I think if anyone states that Pakistan must be splintered and cut into pieces, that is enough to drive me angry. Though I agree one must keep cool and calm. As far as what is going on in Pakistan, we have learnt to live with it and will work to eliminate the problems. Nothing special is going on in Pakistan, it is normal as any other deveopling nation. All countries go through challenges, maybe Pakistan has more of its share of security challenges, but resilient as we are we will get through it.
Ganesh
PS
Your remark regarding jingoism or belligerence, you can now imagine how rhetoric matters. It can drive very sane people into jingoism and belligerence. Tells how important it is to develop the trust otherwise it will lead to unneccessary fear mongering and creates an atmosphere of mistrust and anger. It may take a hundered years to create trust, but just a single moment or event for that trust to be breached.
New estimates put Pakistan’s nuclear arsenal at more than 100
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/con tent/article/2011/01/30/AR2011013004136. html
“The Pakistanis have significantly accelerated production of uranium and plutonium for bombs and developed new weapons to deliver them. After years of approximate weapons parity, experts said, Pakistan has now edged ahead of India, its nuclear-armed rival.”
-This latest report is why I always argue with those who state that Pakistan should be splintered.
Indians may talk about splitting up Pakistan, and Pakistanis may talk about Ghazwa-e-Hind. Both can make nationalistic blood boil, but we need to keep our senses.
Beyond a point, the number of nuclear weapons doesn’t matter. Whether we can blow each other up once, or a hundred times over, doesn’t make a big difference. We’re still dead, and it’s still a matter of unnecessary stupidity.
In the meantime, there are more mundane, yet more immediately dangerous things for Pakistan to worry about. As the saying goes, “It’s the economy, stupid.”
Regards,
Ganesh Prasad
Umair has rightly and correctly praised the positives of US governance – one reason perhaps is that the people hold the administration responsible and insist they stick to their promises and agenda. The other aspect I respect and admire about the US, is that all said and done, it has a pretty good justice and legal framework in place, which functions efficiently.
Yet, without taking away anything from that, the US has time and again, proved that it is very short sighted as far as it’s foreign policy is concerned. One reason may be that by and large Americans are insulated from the world beyond their borders and only become aware of problems when they really impact their lives. What is often termed as arrogance is actually just plain simple ignorance. US foreign policy generally has two alternatives to foreign crises. Either throw bombs and missiles or throw money at the problem. Both may provide a quick fix, but in the long term leave the genesis of the problem untouched or even create a different set of problems.
For years now anti Americanism is rampant in Egypt and Pakistan, just two examples, at the level of the man in the street, The US has simply ignored it and bypassed the people completely and tried to buy out governments – usually corrupt and incapable – and hope the infusion of money will buy goodwill. It seldom does. Bad governance, therefore is pushed under the carpet for short term gains. Then, when unpopular, inefficient or dictatorial governments are violently over thrown, the US is left holding the baby with mud on its face and is back at square one.
It is beyond belief that in all these years the US has learnt nothing about dealing with other people and realising the importance of earning their good will. That is more important and beneficial in the long term than all the missiles and money it keeps throwing around.
Umairpk: “This latest report is why I always argue with those who state that Pakistan should be splintered.”
Not long ago you Pakistanis used to say that Pakistan went nuclear because India did. Now what logic is being used to build 100 nukes and chest thump that you have more than what India has? Who else are you competing with?
As far splintering Pakistan, it is one individual opinion, based on the internal conditions in Pakistan. No one today can go in and splinter any country. International norms will not allow for that. What one says here remains just a statement. No one here has any influence or control over the events that are unfolding across the world. None of us are solving any problems. None of us are diplomats or government leaders in key positions. We are nameless, faceless, insignificant entities whose opinions hardy have impact on anyone. Therefore do not get charged up for the comments on this forum.
I wish there are more moderate Pakistanis who can write in these forums. Most of the time we encounter Rex Minors or Babags which gives a very different picture to us and our reaction stems from that.
I agree with Dara. Americans are quite ignorant of the outside world. Watch their world news and you will understand in a shot what their global perspective is. They have become used to dominating the world for more than six decades. Only now they are seeing new players emerge and their clout diminishing. Economic strains are exposing the inadequacies that they have not paid attention to all these years. I see a lot of discussions here on how the Chinese and Indians are competitive in school and college levels.
America’s foreign policy is driven entirely by business interests. Businesses like to make profit with minimal constraints. Many venture out because they cannot meet the domestic stipulations. If foreign countries remain backward and law can be easily twisted, it would increase profitability for corporations. Outside of the US, not many talk of rights. A backward world is beneficial to the businesses. Hence they prefer dictators and civil wars. They act worried. But they make good money out of selling weapons and material. It is all coming back to bite them slowly.
They always create a problem to solve an existing one. That has led to the conditions we face today.
Having an enemy has really benefitted them. So long as the USSR existed, they could play the saviors of the world and were on top of the world. Once they killed off that enemy, they have fallen gradually. Now there is another enemy they are building up. But this one might blow up on their faces.
KP I agree that business interests drive external policy. I would also like to add that actually most countries do the same thing – with one major difference. The US seems determined to look for easy pickings amongst the backward and unstable countries. Others generally take the long road of lower profits and stable local conditions.
While some prefer to use Pakistan as a comparison to the situation in Egypt, my own view is that it is more akin to Iran and the Shah. Similarly, I have no doubt, that sooner or later, the Saudi bubble will burst. While it will cause grave problems in the region and the world as a whole, for the US it will be much, much worse.
Dara/KPSingh
You guys are making a mistake regarding Americans and misjudging them. Pakistan has a long history of working with America, Pak-American relations are long standing which does not necessarily mean they have been the best. There has been strains in the past in that relationship. Coming to the point, the US is a super power we have to agree on that. While countries like India and Pakistan or even other countries, share long borders with others. US on the contrary is far across the Atlantic, far away from any potential enemy. Most importantly, the US has control over world oceans through its Naval fleet, by controlling the SLOC (Sea lines of communication) it gives them immense clout in world affair. A strong economy, a stable democracy, armed forces, geography many factors gives advantage to US. They have been generous with poor nations in providing aid etc. However, with Pakistan and maybe even Egypt and other countries US has often defined its relationship in short-term adhoc basis which resulted in policy errors and bring us to this point. I am not anti-American, US tries to uplift Pakistan’s civil government, assisiting the Military as well. With its diplomatic mission, social assistance programs, cultural and education exchange programs etc. But due to policy blunders, the general public does not see the good work and simply becomes anti-American when there is a small incident anywhere. Some of their policies have been a real disaster for both countries interests. End of the day whether its Iran, Pakistan, Egypt, Tunisia or Saudi Arabia even India, every country is unique with its own history. The Iran event in 1979 happened in a different time in history, today Egypt opposition movement does not have the leadership equal to Khomeini. Moreover, no mullahs are leading Egypt protests, it is ordinary people, women, children almost everyone. It is more like a people revolution, while Iran was a Mullah revolution (clergy and conservatives etc) taking over. The two are definitely different.
PS
A word on the Saudi monarchy, the Saudi monarchy has been remarkably resilient in the past. They have been gradually pushing for reforms and freedoms, also have immense wealth. Mostly they use the wealth wisely, investing in long-term projects, providing better healthcare, education facilites for their population. They have been rapidly modernizing, etc. I do not think that Saudi Arabia will face anything like Egypt, at best they could face challenges but will ultimately overcome those.
@”I think if anyone states that Pakistan must be splintered and cut into pieces, that is enough to drive me angry.” Posted by Umairpk
I think you are referring to KP’s comment about Pakistan splintering up. But even KP has stated several times that India can not & should not attempt at breaking Pakistan & if Pakistan splinters, it will be it’s own doing (which is what many believe). If Pakistan breaks up, it won’t be because of India or US but due to economic decline & subjugation of provinces and this threat is very real. Economic proeperity takes care of a lot of things & the same thing applies to Indian Kashmir as well. IMO, if the Kashmiris are given a taste of the economic prosperity experienced by the rest of indians, a lot of their gerievences with India will gradually disappear. So if Pakistan were to remain in it’s current form, your establishment will have to stop building nukes & start building your economy because your nukes will be useless against your own angry provinces.
@DaraIndia
As and american, I concur with your comments about US foreign policy. It’s pretty much indefensible! I can only hope that our policy makers & leaders learn from past mistakes & avoid making them in the future. As for the ignorance of americans in general, I agree on that as well, although, I see things changing for the better as more & more americans realize that there is a world beyond their country & that we are very much a part of it. The effective judicial framework is a big plus but it has a minor side effect in that it has made us an extremely litigious society.
I am watching the happenings in Egypt. Looks like their Islamic brotherhood does not want to come to power. They just want to help from behind the scenes. El Baradei or Suleiman will be good leaders. And the people are not showing any religious fanaticism. They are shouting for freedom. Their soldiers are being friendly to them. I think we should not make the mistake of every revolution in the Islamic world as some kind of a fundamentalist take over. It happened in Iran long ago. But today’s Iran has a lot of youth who hate fundamentalists and theocracy. They might rebel against the theocratic rulers.
Internet and twitter have made a huge influence across the world. In China, one official’s son had to be sentenced to jail for running his car over a pedestrian. In the past no one could do anything to children of high officials. Today they have the internet and through youtube they ran a campaign that basically forced the system to play just and the boy is in jail.
Hosni Mubarak is 82 years old. I don’t know why he is trying to cling on to power. It is time for him to prepare for his coffin.
I hope that the developments in Tunisia and Egypt have a positive influence on Pakistani youth and hope that they stand up and charge at the fundamentalists. That will do a lot of good to the region.
Umnair,
The US has one Achilles heel, which is Israel. Developments in the Middle East can place Israel in a tight corner and the US is worried about that. I am yet to understand why the US is protecting Israel against all odds. I know there is a Jewish lobby that is influential in the US foreign policy. The worry that US has about the recent revolts in Egypt and Tunisia are Israel centric. I am concerned that the US might do something pre-emptively to counter anything that might jeopardize Israel’s security. The US always creates a problem to solve an existing one. I hope they do not over react and screw things up for everyone. Apprehensive decisions can be disastrous. A lot is at stake. For three decades Hosni Mubarak has helped avoid hostilities against Israel. Losing him is a big issue for the US, even though they pay a lip service to people’s power etc. They are praying that the next set of Egyptian rulers will continue with Mubarak’s policies. If they see any signs of that not happening, either the US or Israel or both might escalate counter plans. I am watching the developments with eagerness.
@Umair
Well said, your post Jan 31.
We are witnessing an Egyption ´soft revolution and with this the second ally of the USA against terrorism is about to go down the Nile. The first one from Tunisia is already the guest of Saudi family. Mubarak is the airforce man, a fool who is trying to frighten the civilians with F16′s.
Since the USA paid for the orchestra they would like to select the melody but it is not working. There is some parallel for Pakistan, your civilian Govt. should listen to the ordinary workers, peasants and intellectuals and not waste their time in academic discussions on secular philosophies, it is food and dignity, what the people want in the end. Failing this, the so called Islamic organised and established political force is going to end up in Egypt as well as in Pakistan as the ruling powers. Pakistan Govt. must learn to share power with all political forces and not continue the ritual of current party system and parliamentry election, which at the end is going to give the country the Sharif Bros or Zardari lot. Pakistan military were somehow not able to come up with this idea during their times nor could the ex airforce officer Mubarak, who went for one party political system and deployed massive security apparatus to protect the Govt. The biggest looser is going to be Israel, who which would definitely< not a partner to have a blockade of Gaza! In case the new Govt. is unfriendly, Israel would be obliged to spend billions for their defence.
Rex Minor
Comparison of Egypt and Pakistan inevitably stop at recent history.
I hope that Egyptians hold sacred their national pride as an ancient country, attracting admiration for its remarkable achitecture such as the pyrimads, and for developing methods to use water to benefit the people and the land. Those achievement occurred thousands of years before Islam was born as a religion.
I hope Pakistanis similarly find their pride in their historic roots which date back long before Pakistan gets registered as a country at the United Nations. UN does not define country. Just because the UN has not recognized a people as a “country” does not mean a thing about what those people might, and should be proud of in their ancient heritage.
Ganesh Prasad:
If the gospel according to Seinfeld had been banned in the world, there would not have been an economic meltdown in 2008, nor Enron, or the fixing of the books by the Lehman Brothers.
Instead, the world will be a better place, without people who should be in jail(as in Seinfeld’s last episode, featuring, Jerry S, Elaine, George and the whole bunch locked up in jail). Instead, the show of Seinfeld essentially rationalizes double-standards, whitewashes selfishness, promotes the use of intelligence to cheat without getting caught. It replaces the age old wisdom that intelligence should be used to do good, not to cheat, take advantage, lie and not be discovered.
Seinfeld promotes a modern, sophisticated of corruption that is disguised as friendship, comaraderie and smartness to be proud of.
There isn’t such a law of neuroscience that the neurons in the area of the brain responsible for emotions and higher rational thinking cannot be firing at the same time and be co-ordinated to seek solutions. There isn’t such a limitation in the human brain that the pre-frontal cortex and higher brain capacity cannot aspire to remaining rational, logic, while allowing oneself to express anger. Only petty excuses, put out with funny, laughable disguises by Seinfeld and its followers.
Only semi-intelligent folk like seinfeld and yourself who rationalize childishness, bigotry and refuse to grow up, while pretending it’s part of the rule of nature.
You, as a disciple of Seinfeld, had been corrupted.
I hope you will refrain from government policies– for sake of the world’s well being and justice and peace.
CommonSensLogic:
I agree with you.
Madoff, Lehman’s & Goldman’s top executives all love Seinfeld. The show robbed them of their sense of guilt over unethical practices.
AND, worst, they are so blinded by their new found self-righteousness based on seinfeldism that they believe there is not difference between Seifeld, the real person making millions and millions, and their making billions.
AND, even when they are in jail, they think of themselves no different than Seifeld being in jail in the last farewell episodes. The humor blinded their conscience. That’s why that show became so populart — it panders to a base quality in every person, ie., to be free of guilt even when caught red handed, and then get away scotch free in their own mind, even in jail. They all want to be the billionare who should be in jail but never got caught. The Seinfeld culture promotes a whole generation of con artists, scammers who, in typical Seinfeld humor, feels no guilt about crimes that put millions out on the street, deprives tens and hundreds of millions of children of necessary funding for a decent education, and many other societal woes.
And why do they not see it— because they enjoy joking and gloating about the woes of others. Empathy is anesthetized from their brain. Ethical standard is muddled. Unfairness is not recognized becuase it is funny! And when it causes bloodshed because common folks don’t understand why they can’t make ends meet– the Seinfeld fans continue to joke and wash their hands off their share of responsibility.
Food prices were one of the items that ruthless Wall Street Seinfeldism followers bet on, in derivatives market. To make the most money, they must manipulate the food prices to bubble. Then, as they see riots started over food prices, they continue to joke and BET, just like Ganesh Prasad proposes here, as if nobody will find out about the share of guilt by the likes like him.
Listen: the street rioters may not understand the link between betting on food prices, and coldly betting on whether people driven crazy by the lack of food to violence. We, sane and rational people, who refuse the temptation to use intelligence to damage the world and make joke of it— we can tell.
What the rioters should put on trial, if the law allows, are the betting of food prices, by all international “investors” on the food prices. These investors in turn did everything they could to bust the food prices so they reap the money while poor people starve, and governments collapse. And they think nobody can do the math and follow the statistics? They are wrong. Books are coming out. Talk shows are breaking down the disguise of complicated mathetical terms so that even ordinary people understand the truth behind these funny jokes, and how sick these funny jokes really are.
jo5319:
What you are saying is:
Ganesh Prasad loves betting so much that
he is essentially betting on whether hundreds of thousands or tens of millions people starve,
whether dozens, thousands or millions are killed by a revolt turned violent, and call such numbness high class intelligent entertainment.
Not that long ago, such numbness only belonged to cold blooded mass killers. Now, it is gloated and joked about by seinfeldism followers. The stupid followers all end up in jail. The ultra smart one stay out of jail and continues to plot to take advantage of recession, poverty, war, and continue to gloat about how strong they are compared to those victims who suffer emotional breakdowns. Let me warn you. Madoff was one of you, however vehemently you might deny it. Madoff scoffed at the news that some of his victims committed suicide. What has followed since then? His son committed suicide. And the money hidden in his grandchildren’s, best friends’ accounts will all be gone, along with their sanity and reputation.
Now, let me ask you, do you still think it is smart and trendy to be a Seinfeld fan? Is it just a fetish over a comedy show, or did it contribute to unraveling previous democratic systems, starting with the economy.
Mortal1:
Joking about the world colliding is sick.
Not funny.
America is unlikely to regain the confidence of investors ever; and many honest, hardworking, law-abiding folks who had been destroyed by attitudes that guide cold unethical business methods, will likely never recover.
Someday, karma will catch up with likes like you and Ganesh Prasad.
WTF!! this place has suddenly turned into a seinfeld bashing forum!
@”Joking about the world colliding is sick. Not funny. Someday, karma will catch up with likes like you and Ganesh Prasad.”
Easy there! we’re just referring to an episode of seinfeld & not in the literal sense. You need to watch it to know what I was talkin about.
@”America is unlikely to regain the confidence of investors ever; and many honest, hardworking, law-abiding folks who had been destroyed by attitudes that guide cold unethical business methods, will likely never recover.”
ya ya ya, heard that one before, yawn!
I don’t think “commonsenselogic” and “jo5319″ are serious with their comments.
All shows in Seinfeld’s genre reflect what’s happening in everyday American life not the other way round.
After recent global events, I think chances of a revolution in Pakistan are very high, although I’m afraid, it could very well be a theocratic revolution like the one in Iran.
Umair,
We are making similar points.
I agree that the Americans have been generous and are generous. In fact the average American is generous to a fault. My reference is to their administration. The point that I am trying to make is that its generosity is often misplaced and unwise. It often bypasses the people and their sentiments.
I have no doubts about its super power stature. In fact I find it hilarious that some people here talk about it being a spent force and await its imminent downfall. Wouldn’t hold my breadth waiting for it to happen.
As regards the reference to Iran, I still feel it is relevant. The players involved, whether clergy or the man in the street or lawyers or professionals does not matter. As far as I know, Egypt is the second largest recipient of American aid after Israel. Yet, there is a hint of anti Americanism in the Egyptian protest. My point is that the US has mastered the art of backing the wrong horse – often backing regimes against their own people. That has often created innumerable problems for them.
There may be no Khomeini or cleric heading the revolt, but there is Mohamed ElBaradei taking centre stage and becoming a rallying figure.
The Saudi royalty may be resilient, it has to be to have survived as long as it has. But it appears to be out of synch with its population. Even now I have heard of differing voices on Egypt. While the man in the street is reported to be sympathising with the protesters the monarchy is reportedly running down the protests as irrelevant. I still feel that events will come to a head there.
Mortal,
“The effective judicial framework is a big plus but it has a minor side effect in that it has made us an extremely litigious society.”
I wonder how much the effectiveness of the system has contributed towards a litigious society. In India we have perhaps the most ponderous, creaky and leaking system yet people run to the courts at a drop of a hat. Moreover, the biggest litigant is perhaps the government itself.
What I would really like to see in India is that affairs of government and investigations be made totally open to the public, as happens in the US. I cannot ever imagine the Prime Minister or anyone in government being hauled up by a committee and the proceedings of parliamentary and public committees and commissions being broadcast live on TV. That is a sure sign that the people are actually empowered and informed. In the US, every committee proceeding is open to all and often aired live.
A green revolution on the whole is taking place in Egypt. Perhaps what has gone without notice is that Egyptian army is mostly made up of conscripts, therefore following the normal rules of engagement, the American supplied tanks which have come out on the streets do not carry any equipment. Egyptian leaders of the revolution are awre of this!
Umair, please note that Egyption citizens are the softest of all arabs and are no longer prepared to accept the 30 years of authoritarian rule. Most of the judiciary is in the crowd. Pakistan judiciary( mainly lawyers) came out for the first time against the military rule under the Indian born Parwez!
Pakistan needs an inclusive Govt. made up of all parties replacing the out of date parliamentry elections, which in essence is a farce, the revolving door for use by the Bhutto and Sharif bros. The possibility of Muslim Brotherhood taking over the Govt. in Egypt is very real and so is the possibility of Pakistan Islamic parties coming in power sooner than any one imagines.
Rex Minor
Pakistan”Pakistan judiciary( mainly lawyers) came out for the first time against the military rule under the Indian born Parwez!”
I don’t know if you are aware, your sensitiveness towards India does expose itself. I’d like to know the relevance of Musharraf’s Indian origin here. It appears suddenly out of the blues. Are you suggesting that the lawyers protested against Musharraf because he was Indian born? Or are you indirectly indicating that Musharraf was not liked because he was of Indian origin? Just curious. If you are sensitive about it, let me tell you that Mr. Jinnah was also of Indian origin, along with Pakistan’s father of Islamic bomb AQ Khan. So if Pakistan goes down the drain, you guys can probably take the route f blaming Muslims of Indian origin as being the reason for it. You have already declared Rehmat as a Hindu polluted Muslim. I am just connecting the dots.
@Mortal1
“I’m afraid, it could very well be a theocratic revolution like the one in Iran.”
-
This should be of more concern to the USA/West than to India. For Islamist Jihadis, Indians are peanuts. Their eyes are on the global jihad, bigger prize the “Great Satan”..
Rich Anglophone Pak Elite (RAPE) and “secular” Pak army generals have colluded with the West, funded by the west have tried their best to undermine India for 63 years..
PLEASE TELL how the Islamist take over will make matters worse for India. “Secular” “liberal” paks done the following for 63 years against India aided by the west.
1) Printing and flooding fake Indian currency
2) Financing, training insurgent groups inside India
3) Sponsoring terrorism in Indian trains, buses, temples, bazzars
4)Launching wars
5)Heavy media propaganda lies about India/ Indian muslims
6)Threatening and proclaiming they will use nuclear weapons first ( i.e clarifying the idea of nuclear weapon backed terror strategy)…
How can the Islamists can improve on this…just curious.. .I will say the opposite…Islamist take over will bring an end (once for all) to the charade of “liberal” paks colluding with the West to undermine India.
Rex:”please note that Egyption citizens are the softest of all arabs and are no longer prepared to accept the 30 years of authoritarian rule. Most of the judiciary is in the crowd. Pakistan judiciary( mainly lawyers) came out for the first time against the military rule under the Indian born Parwez!”
-It is remarkable what is happening in Egypt, ordinary people have stood up and taken over the street. I salute their courage to stand up for their freedoms and rights, and the crowds lack leadership they are looking upon El Baradei and TV persons for leaderships. Decades of repression left no opposition leaders. Those people are on their own in the streets. IN Pakistan too street protests ousted President musharraf and lawyers movement was able to restore the independent minded supreme court Justice deposed by Musharraf. One thing clear in Egypt is the unity of their masses. I only wish and hope one day Pakistanis rise up for their rights, shake the foundations of our corrupt systems, unite to fight for their rights.
Most alarming, the people in street are angry towards Israel and President Mubarak’s support to Israel over the years. It is evident post Mubarak Egypt will be different.
Hopefully, Egypt can pull themselves together through this with minimum damage and recover quickly.
Mortal/Netizen
Firstly, no possibility of Iran style revolution in Pakistan. Secondly, netizen, your long list of greviences against Pakistan Army, you would be stupid to assume it is one sided affair. India has been similarly hostile to Pakistan, in return among all its smaller neighbour it appears only Pakistan is capable of challenging India. That is the whole truth, do not tell half stories.
@”Pakistan judiciary( mainly lawyers) came out for the first time against the military rule under the Indian born Parwez!” Posted by pakistan
Your love for Pashtuns & hatered for Muhajirs has been evident for quite some time now. It’s exacly due to the racism & bigotry of people like you that Karachi is burning in a cilvil war today.
@netizen: My fear of islamists taking over in Pakistan, is more of general in nature at this time & not India or US/west specific.
Well, the articles assessment of Egypt and Pakistan Armies and the government being friendly with America and the population of Pakistan is averse to Americans and army to the Politicians.
I, would not differ with the author except that his line of thing omitted to into consideration the America with Israel cancer in its body. With the Israel cancer, America will have the same relationship with all Muslim countries like it or not only Pakistan.
Without Israeli cancer, American relationship would have been the most cordial without any match.
How can you have better relationship America being the best friend and most trusted ally of terrorist country the ministers of that country being genocide criminals the foreign Minister being a veteran terrorist leader and the Prime Minister being a indicted top class master assassin. in a case committed by Mossad in Dubai under the leadership of the Israel.
Take Egypt’s case we all know that military dictatorship is bad but the parliamentary dictatorship is the worst and repulsive. Hosni Mubarak as the Parliamentary ruled Egypt dictator and we see the on going movement, and are hearing what he did to the population instead he had been serving Israel’s cause instead of Egyptians including facilitating the genocide in Gaza strip.
My friends those who know what a country Israel is would surely know that the population of Israel is the children of the NAZI raped womenfolk’s illegitimate children can the PM deny with DNA prove that they are not the illegitimate children of the great leader ADOLF HITLER’s force the Nazi’s Children
Yes, Pakistan Army does not approve politicians because American government brought in the army to power from time to time for its own use and shunted out when the work was done like a toilet paper. Pakistan Army got use to the civil power. Now, no use talking as when ever it will get opportunity it will grab the power. it is like a tiger getting use to human blood and becoming man eater. All these have the blessing of America including formation of Al-Queda and Taliban. I am sure the author will not dare contest with well establish facts.
Now let us see the contribution of American government to Egypt. America calls Egypt its closest friend after Israel. Why because Egypt under Mubarak was paid in billion by America to serve the cause of Israel as a paid servant. recently Egypt facilitated the genocide committal by Israel of Gaza the trail of the criminals were stopped by America. Mubarak did serve so well the Netanyahu accused the US President as betrayer. He wanted Us to retrieve of Mubarak and reestablishing him for him to serve In the interest of Israel without fail.
Now Israel is in panic of Mid-East Muslim after the on going movement to oust the President Mubarak. Hope the rest let remain corked bottle. The double standard work of American has been cancerous and stinking as its stinking hateful country. It is recommended US should surgically operate to get ride of the cancer terrorist genocide committal filthy incest practicing nation.
Dara,
As the saying goes “justice delayed is justice denied” & one of the most frustrating aspects of the Indian judicial system is the lenghth of time invloved in completion of the process. Here, if I file a civil suit, I can be rest assured that I’ll be done with it within a year (usually within 6 months) but in India, I’m aware of civil cases, which have been going on for decades with no end in sight.
KINGFISHER: “My friends those who know what a country Israel is would surely know that the population of Israel is the children of the NAZI raped womenfolk’s illegitimate children can the PM deny with DNA prove that they are not the illegitimate children of the great leader ADOLF HITLER’s force the Nazi’s Children”
I think you need to tone down your voice. Your statement above is quite discriminatory. In other forums postings with such language venting hatred will be deleted. Here in Reuters they tend to watch the fun when people slip from one degenerative level down to the next. Jews are as human as anyone else. You need to understand their case by being in their shoes. Their nation got created in 1946-47 (I might be off a bit here).
There are a lot of similarities between Pakistan and Israel. Both were created in the name of religion (one being a minority surrounded or adjacent to a majority belonging to another religion). Both suffer from existential threat paranoia. In the case of Israel, this threat has been genuine. Arabs and Muslims have sworn to exterminate them. In the case of Pakistan, non-Muslims have not taken it as a life mission to exterminate Muslims. Both have nukes and modern militaries. Both are close allies of the US. Based on the similarities, you must be able to understand the perspective of Israelite citizens.
If you are justified in calling them as illegitimate children of Nazi rape victims, have you ever thought about people of your nation being descendants of similar victims of the past when Turks and Afghans invaded the region that became Pakistan, looted, plundered and raped women as a treat for taking part? A lot of atrocities have been perpetrated by almost all societies.
If the Arabs and Muslim communities had not been this hostile towards Israel, may be they might have been this hard on Palestine citizens and other Israeli Arabs. Though Israel follows a parliamentary democracy, it is basically a military state with all citizens required to take up military training and service. They exist on a constant state of alert at all times as though they are at war. Pakistan is a military ruled state with a namesake democracy. Compared to Israel, Pakistan has been in a much better neighborhood. Unlike Israel, Pakistan has been the trouble maker in the region.
With so many similarities between your country and Israel, your venom against them is indirectly being shown at your own people.
another jew bashing rex minor clone on the lose!
“I think you need to tone down your voice. Your statement above is quite discriminatory. In other forums postings with such language venting hatred will be deleted……..”
KP, it’s futile trying to reason with someone who has such a high level of hate, venom & frustration bottled up inside. And the funniest part is, he could very well be living in the US/west and working in a jewish owned company.
@Kingfisher
well said, you are probably aware that this blog is infected with Indian citizens who for their own personal grievences, have different reading of the world. They would label you first as a Pakistani, then an anti-semit, not realising that you are talking about Israel and its policies and not about jews. They most probably do not know that Arabs are also semit and cousins of Jewish people. They are also not aware that in no time in history jews were mistreated at the hands of muslims, neither in Persia nor in Spain. That anti-semit roots are in Europe, not in the Arabian desert. Please do not put them under stress, they regard NY times and Washington post articles coming from the scriptures.
The USA has been the most popular country among almost two billion muslims, but its unqualified support for Israel foreign policy over several decades it stands today as the most unpopular country among the muslims. According to Jimmy carter no one in the USA can now even get elected for the senate or Congress if he or she objects to Israel’s policies towards palestinians! The USA very much needs to clear the 5th columnists within its own borders, before becoming the great free Nation and a beacon of hope as it used to be! Mr Obama zig zag statements on Egypt shows the administration dilemma. On one hand they have 82 years old man who served them well and supported Gaza blockade with Israel, and on the other side of the scale the Egyptian youth who want freedom of expression, dignity and jobs in their land without being tortured by the Mubarak machinery.
The revolution we are witnessing among Arabs today is an organic one at grass roots, the working class proleterians and intellectuals, students and Professors, lawyers and judges, who do not have a single leader to control and guide them. This is first in the history of today’s world. People simply want freedom, dignity and work to feed their families.
No one knows the stregnth of evil forces, the old pharaoh seems to have dug in and is bent upon dying in Egypt, his own words, the military is putting on a show with tanks and armoured cars( without any ammunition), but for how long. Are we going to see a green revolution at the end or a red one? This is the question of the day. Pakistan military and civilian leaders could learn a lot from this event. In my views Our Indian friends should support this movement and drop their personal grievences at this juncture. 2011 is the year for oppressed people and not for the oppressor.
Rex Minor
understand that are not even
Rex Minor:
Obama can be re-elected according to his current approval rating; and Obama disagrees with Israeli policies often.
Sarkozy disagrees with Israeli policies. If he is not re-elected, it’s more likely due to the students’ discontent, and economic situation. Little else matters.
@KP
Do not try to connect dots, just ask the question and I shall explain. This is what I learned in my childhood, not to argue but explain!
I cannot but ignore minor details in my analysis, such as place of birth. When after half a century Pakistan still allows people who claim to be muslims and born outside Pakistan to become bona fide candidates for the position of a President, then they should not blame the guy for his disgraceful and deceitful performance. To go against the law is considered a criminal act but to go against the Judiciary of a country, is meant to destroy the very structure of the State. Pakistani people did not realise the gravity of his crime and in my view he should have faced a trial and not be alloweed to go unpunished. Do you believe that the USA, whuich relies heavily on immigrants, should allow a foreign born American for the President position. I have no other sinister imaginations about the guy or his Indian birth, he could have been born in Gulf states, or Africa.
@Umair
The old Pharaoh who together with Israel imposed a blockade has dug in and refusing to take the Turkish Prime Minister’s advice to listen to the people. He could use the clever trick of Musharaf and leave the country and then later declare his intention to return to
Egypt and take part in the election?
Let us recall here that it was Turkey which tried to break the Gaza blockade with ts Freedom ship and lost several lives in the International waters.
Rex Minor
Mortal1:
Seems like you never realized that many people watch Seinfeld because they enjoy bashing Seinfeld-lovers for loving such a stupid show! Stupid Seinfeld-lovers end up in jail like Madoff, just like Seinfeld, Elaine, George, all ended up in jail in the last episodes.
And you think those comments were from people who don’t watch Seinfeld! Ho Ho HO!
@janeallen
Many decent people in the world disagree with Israel’s politics, but the guys you have mentioned are not the one who disagree.
Mr Obama is the first American who went before the Jewish lobby before becoming the President that Jerusalem should not be divided, the slogan of Israel. He also agreed to appoint Hillary Clinton as the secretary of Stae at the behest of Jewish lobby, before he was elected as the President of the USA.
Mr Sarkozy is of jewish origin and he along with many other European friends of Israel, do not support the foreign policy of Israel. We all know that this policy is to the detriment of Israel citizens. The Israeli govt. could not care less nor do several USA administrations who have lost their standing in the musliom world. Perhaps another Moses is needed, the former Moses would most probably refuse to return either. Like Opera once said about Obama, before he became the President, IS HE THE ONE? Perhaps he is the second Moses having been born as a muslim and raised in the christian house. He has still two years to go as a lame duck President!
Based on his todate performance in my view he is unlikely to return to his white house. If it was not the multiple errors of Hillary Clinton during the election, she could have been the President of the USA.
Mr Sarkozy has not delivered what he promised and his contempt for students and immigrants also did not help him with the rightest. French farmers, and pensioners are not going to fall for his hungarian trick again.
Rex Minor
Pakistan,
Since you try to project a fair face, let me ask you whether you can say any good things about Jews/Israel and India.
I have nothing personal against Jews or any other community. Everyone has the same issues and concerns. One thing you have to realize is that Muslims overall seem to have issues with everyone else – Jews, Hindus, Sikhs, Christians and so on at different parts of the world. And in general Muslims use violence as a means to assert their place in any society. There is a lot of animosity in this world which is made up of 4.5 billion non-Muslims, towards Muslims. This is unnecessary and unfortunate. I wish people of different beliefs understood others, their perspectives and learned to adjust and live with them instead of seeking exclusive privileges. Would you care to comment on this observation?
Rex:
“The old Pharaoh who together with Israel imposed a blockade has dug in and refusing to take the Turkish Prime Minister’s advice to listen to the people. He could use the clever trick of Musharaf and leave the country and then later declare his intention to return to
Egypt and take part in the election?
Let us recall here that it was Turkey which tried to break the Gaza blockade with ts Freedom ship and lost several lives in the International waters.”
-Yes, sad when Egypt is the leader of Arab world and should have taken the lead to express solidarity, Hosni Mubarak’s Egypt called for Gaza’s blockade. One woman in the crowds Cairo shouted “Hosni Mubarak must go, he has relations with Israel which is an enemy”. I think Israel has been shaken, they are in for some tough time. Egypt will finally change, its people will become masters of their destiny. As an Air Force commander I don;t expect Hosni Mubarak to give in easily, we are heading for Friday when after prayers the protesters will besiege the Presidential palace. Mubarak is looking to buy a few months time and honorable exit, I dont think the people can put off 30 years of anger which has suddenly erupted. My best to the Egypt people.
Rex:”2011 is the year for oppressed people and not for the oppressor.”
-Well said, very well said, Tunisians liberated themselves from the tyranny of a dictatorial rule of 23 years. A three decades old regime has been shaken in Egypt, Jordan is feeling the jolts, Saudi Arabia will be rprompted to give more freedom and talk is that this revolution can reach as far as Pakistan. Let us hope no one hijack this movement of oppressed people seeking liberation and their rights. All freedom loving people stand behind them in their support. And I can tell you the oppressors and their patrons are shaking and stunned still in shock. As some of popular banners read “Game over”.