Pakistan: Now or Never?
Perspectives on Pakistan
Army, Allah and America: on Pakistani pitfalls and the future of Egypt
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All countries are unique and comparing two of the world’s most populous Muslim countries, Egypt and Pakistan, is as risky as comparing Britain to France at the time of the French Revolution. But many of the challenges likely to confront Egypt as it emerges from the mass protests against the 30-year-rule of President Hosni Mubarak are similar to those Pakistan has faced in the past, and provide at least a guide on what questions need to be addressed. In Pakistan, they are often summarised as the three A’s — Army, Allah and America.
Both have powerful armies which are seen as the backbone of the country; both have to work out how to accommodate political Islam with democracy, both are allies of America, yet with people who resent American power in propping up unpopular elites.
As my Reuters colleague Alastair Lyon writes, Egypt’s sprawling armed forces — the world’s 10th biggest and more than 468,000-strong — have been at the heart of power since army officers staged the 1952 overthrow of the monarchy. Mubarak’s announcement that he was naming his intelligence chief Omar Suleiman as vice-president was seen as a move towards an eventual, military-approved handover of power. And Egyptian protesters have sometimes tried to see the army as their ally — an institution that puts country first before personal gain.
Yet armies, as Pakistan has discovered over its many years of on-again off-again military rule, are not designed for democracy. They are designed to be efficient, and with that comes the hierarchy and obedience to authority that would seem alien to many of those out on the streets of Cairo.
In his book about the Pakistan Army, defence expert Brian Cloughley writes about how the British general, the Duke of Wellington, responded to democracy in his first cabinet meeting as prime minister: ”An extraordinary affair. I gave them their orders and they wanted to stay and discuss them.” The story is told as part of an argument about why the Pakistan Army has never been particularly successful at running the country.
“All Pakistan’s army coups have been bloodless, successful and popular – but popular only for a while,” he writes. “The trouble is that military people are usually quite good at running large organisations, even civilian ones, but generally fail to understand politics and government, and the give-and-take so necessary in that esoteric world.”
It is a lesson that may yet need to be learned in Egypt. As Amil Khan wrote from Islamabad in his Twitter feed, “Love the way Pakistani twitterers puzzled by Egyptians’ trust in army. Guys, you’re kinda similar, but kinda different.”
Then there is political Islam. Both Pakistan and Egypt have powerful religious parties which have their roots in Islamist movements born out of Muslim resentment against British colonial rule. In Pakistan, the Jamaat-e-Islami, founded in then British India, has, along with other religious parties played a disproportionately significant role in setting the agenda which goes well beyond their weak showing at the ballot box. It has reached the point where no government — either civilian or military — has dared challenge them on issues of faith. When Salman Taseer, governor of Punjab province, was shot dead by his own security guard earlier this month over his opposition to the country’s blasphemy laws, his killer was celebrated as a hero. Few dared speak out and most of Taseer’s colleagues in the ruling Pakistan People’s Party (PPP) were quick to insist there would no changes to the laws.
Many attribute the grip of religious parties on Pakistani society to the use of Islam as a means of uniting the country’s different ethnic groups, to past support by its military for mujahideen fighting the Soviets in Afghanistan and then the Indians in Kashmir, and to the Islamicisation policies of General Zia-ul-Haq. But over the years every politician has made use of the religious parties to bolster their support, including PPP founder Zulfiqar Ali Bhutto, who declared the minority Ahmadi sect as non-Muslims in 1974, and was later deposed and hanged by Zia in 1979.
In particular, argues Manan Ahmed in this essay titled “Pakistan’s crisis can’t simply be explained by religion”, Pakistan politicised reverence for the Prophet Mohammed. “This emergence of the Prophet as a centralising and orienting raison d’etre for Pakistan, however, was not merely an organic outgrowth of a religiously inclined society, it was a deliberate state policy, aided by Islamist parties, to mould public faith. The blasphemy riots of the 1950s, when the Ahmadi sect was violently resisted by the Jama’at-i Islami, had taught one clear lesson to the religious right: the veneration of Muhammad was great political theatre with infinite malleability for nearly every segment of the Pakistani population.”
Unlike Pakistan, Egypt has more ethnic homogeneity and, with its large Coptic population, greater religious diversity so – on paper at least – political Islam would be less obvious as a unifying force. The Muslim Brotherhood, founded like the Jamaat-e-Islami in opposition to British rule, has taken a low profile in the Egyptian protests, though as former Reuters bureau chief in Cairo Jonathan Wright argues in his blog, this may be a deliberately calibrated stance.
“The Brotherhood, like Islamist groups in many Arab countries, has cold feet about governing. It does not feel it is ready. This is reflected in its official strategy of concentrating on a political reform agenda which it shares with many other groups – free and fair elections, rule of law, a new constitution with checks and balances and so on. What the Brotherhood wants most in the short term is the freedom to organize and promote its ideas in a democratic environment, regardless of who is in government. The Brotherhood believes that, given freedom and time, it can win over Egyptians to its long-term agenda.”
The Pew Global Attitudes Survey released in December also suggested that Egyptians might actually be more in favour of Islam playing a role in society than Pakistanis. Ninety-five percent of Egyptians questions said it was good for Islam to play a large role in politics, compared to 88 percent of Pakistanis. “At least three-quarters of Muslims in Egypt and Pakistan say they would favor making each of the following the law in their countries: stoning people who commit adultery, whippings and cutting off of hands for crimes like theft and robbery and the death penalty for those who leave the Muslim religion,” it said.
Finally there is America, which has propped up military rulers in both countries and used generous quantities of American aid to buy support first against communism and then against militant Islam. In Pakistan, the United States is already struggling to foster civilian, democratic rule at a time when it is deeply distrusted. It is likely to face similar challenges in Egypt if it chooses, and manages, to go down that route.
Moreover, while the United States was able to underpin the growth of stable, secular democracies in Europe following World War Two with huge amounts of trade and aid, the world nowadays is still recovering from financial crisis. And as Pakistan’s Dawn newspaper noted, the world’s Muslim populations face faster-than-average growth rates at a time of increasing global competition for resources. At least some of the unrest in the Middle East, especially in Tunisia, was fuelled by anger over rising food prices. It is not an easy time for any country to win over people looking for an end to poverty and unemployment.
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I was pleasantly surprised to read this balanced account of the Kashmir issue in a Pakistani newspaper (“Territorial Solidarity for Kashmir”). I did not find anything in it that an Indian might object to. If Indians and Pakistanis can begin to agree on a common narrative, then there is hope for progress. Sticking to divergent positions will not do anyone any favours.
http://bit.ly/flCRR4
Regards,
Ganesh Prasad
@Ganesh Prasad
I did not find anything in it that an Indian might object to.
==
Well…not sure about excessive praise for that editorial. Advocating “independence” for Kashmir is not as much refreshing or new as it seems to you.
Pak media is full of ISI implanted stories..even the editorials have to be within certain boundaries…as long as the DT editor advocates “independence” for Kashmir, admitting pakistan army sponsored terrorism is fine…this just a refinement of same old strategy…
Basically it is the same obsession, how to undermine India. Crocodile tears for Kashmiris…ironically same article says sindhis, balochis are all demanding more rights for themselves and are not interested in Kashmir.
http://img696.imageshack.us/img696/9219/ funnyk.jpg
Quite Funny, Indian tourism advertisement on Pakistani News website Dawn.com, No nobody hacked Dawn, Courtesy Google PPC.
Umair,
Well said!! There are a number of fellow travellers now on this blog now who are taking a free rideand becomin personal and do not have respect for the post mrked ‘personal’.
The youth from the Arabian world is finaly on the march with a slogan of DIGNITY, FREEDOM and FAMILY. The arabian world is one of the richest, which is hitherto has been explited and squandered by a certain section of the society. People who gave knowledge of science, Al Gebra and Arithmatic and brought religion, the three Ibrahimic faiths one by one into the world, has become a laughing stock, because of their archaic, authoritative and despot Govts and head of states.
Pakistan leaders need to reset their mechanical systms and address the issues befoe it is too late. Those foreign leaders who insult the respect of Pakistani people or the Govt. should be eclared as “person non grata”. The young aggressive former bicycle rider and today’s PM from Britain should be the first candidate.
Rex Minor
Netizen,
Actually, the article deviates quite a bit from the party line, which is what makes it refreshing.
These points would not make the extreme Pakistani right wing happy:
1. Sindh, Balochistan and Khyber-Pakhtunkhwa (formerly NWFP) are also fighting for their rights and don’t seem to care about Kashmir Solidarity Day.
2. It is unrealistic to expect India to give up (Indian-held) Kashmir.
3. Both India and Pakistan play the UN resolutions card, which doesn’t have independence for Kashmir as a third option. Pakistan will have to give up Azad Kashmir and possibly Gilgit-Baltistan if Kashmir becomes truly independent.
4. LeT an Hizb-ul-Mujaheddin weakened the Kashmiri cause through terrorist activities.
5. Jehadist groups drove out Kashmiri Pandits and alienated many Kashmiri Muslims.
6. LeT is responsible for the honor killing of two sisters in Sopore.
7. People of Azad Kashmir are not happy with their situation either.
And then there are the statements that the extreme pro-India types would not like:
1. Rigged elections in 1989
2. Brutalities of the Indian army
3. Indigenous uprising in 2010
4. Demand for repeal of the Armed Forces Special Powers Act and reduction of military presence.
I thought it was fairly balanced. I try not to be jingoistic and would like to see both sides of an issue. I can agree with the points made against India, and these have not been made from the perspective that Pakistan’s actions are above reproach. The article criticises both sides for their failings. I think if the mass of people on both sides are able to accept such an even-handed analyis of the situation, then we can start to think about progress. Until now, the narratives from the two sides was too different and irreconcilable.
Regards,
Ganesh Prasad
Correction:
Until now, the narratives from the two sides WERE too different and irreconcilable.
Regards,
Ganesh Prasad
@netizen
It’s unfair to club all of Pakistan’s media together as a part of PA/ISI’s propaganda machinery. There are a few credible media sources in Pakistan like Dawn, Daily Times & a few others which are quite fair & balanced and are critical of PA/ISI at times. From what I can tell, they do not sunbscribe to the hateful anti-India agenda which is subscribed by many PA/ISI backed newspapers & chanels. To a cerain extent, the media of every country (including India & US) promotes that country’s foreign policy. In Pakistan’s case, it’s a lot more profound but there are independent & unbiased sources, nevertheless.
@Ganesh
I agree, the article is pretty fair & highlights a reality which neither India, nor Pakistan want to accept.
@Umair
Regarding ‘The power of nightmares’, I see that you get influenced very easily by isolated articles/videos which impress you & are quick to declare them as some sort of a holy prophecy. Don’t forget that they are just opinions of an individual & don’t mean much unless that indvidual has very high credibility. Islamic terrorism is not some work of fiction created by politicians. It’s very much a reality, which was created by groups & individuals who carried out acts of terrorism in various parts of the world, killing innumerable innocent civilians. If you want to ignore the reality (or find reasons to ignore it), that’s your choice but don’t expect others to do so.
Umairpk: “Your use of the terms “Islamists” “Islamic terrorism” radicals etc are foolish. You don’t even know what you are talking about, please in this day and age of communication and information technology don’t be ignorant and become victim of neocon propaganda.”
Your denials will not reverse the reality. 9/11 was carried out by Islamic radicals. They were not carried out by oppressed people. Bali bombings were not carried out by Communists. , US embassy bombing in Kenya and Tanzania, 7/11 in UK, Madrid train bombings, Moscow suicide bombs, Mumbai attacks etc were carried out by Muslim militants. There was no one from any other community indulging in these terrorist acts. You must be deluding yourself if you think these are not radicalized militants who were driven into committing suicide attacks on innocent people. And their acts are termed as Islamic terrorism. There are separatist groups like those in Basque, Northern Ireland, North East Sri Lanka etc who resorted to similar acts of violence. At least two of them have been quelled. Today, what dominates the world’s worry is radical Islam where fighting non-Muslims, converting them to Islam, demanding room for puritanical Muslim practices in non-Muslim majority countries etc. Whether you like it or not, whether you are good citizen or not, your religious community is not being looked at with friendliness across the globe. And this is due to the acts of few radicalized groups which have used violence against non-Muslims in order to draw retaliation against the overall Muslim communities across the world and have been trying to create a divide between Muslims and others. People like you are falling into their hands by arguing with others who are pointing the radicals. That is the sign of alienation’s beginning.
This is not some sudden phobia that I have developed. I live in India where any community can be facing rioters with clubs and knives. And my community has been at the receiving end on many occasions. Terrorism as a weapon is being increasingly used by Muslim radical groups across the world. They shed crocodile tears for fellow Muslims and claim to be fighting for the rights of all Muslims. They simply are trying to control others by using violence which is an easy thing to stage. Their suicide attacks on fellow Muslims itself is proof enough to show that they do not care for anyone.
You do not have to take everything as a personal insult because your country or community is being pointed at. You did not commit any of the acts your leaders and community members are being accused of. Therefore there is no need to be defensive at all costs. If you are supporting the rioters in Egypt against Mubarak, then you must be staging the same in Pakistan against your military establishment which has been responsible entirely for the state your country is in now. But I cannot demand that from you. It is entirely your choice and freedom. However, you should not try to negate the reality in one stroke by declaring that there is no such thing as Islamic radicalism. If that is the case, India as the enemy number one of Pakistan is a myth which you are not willing accept in your heart.
I did see the video link you quoted. I do not disagree that the Western powers are responsible for a lot of calamities around the world. Power corrupts and they have caused a lot of damage to many societies across the world. A lot of business interests and arrogance have been involved. The US did use Islamic radicalism as a weapon to defeat the Soviet Union in Afghanistan. But this weapon, they assumed would only be used against their enemies and not against themselves. Your military fell for the same assumption. They assumed that Islamic radicals would all unite and be focused against India and now they are facing the same radicals that they helped create and support. Your military is their servant. It takes orders from the Americans. So if you accuse the Americans, you are indirectly accusing your favorite military of Pakistan.
@KPS
“Today, what dominates the world’s worry is radical Islam where fighting non-Muslims, converting them to Islam, demanding room for puritanical Muslim practices in non-Muslim majority countries etc.”
***While I do not disagree with rest of your article, I disagree that the aim of radical Muslims is to convert Non-Muslims to Muslims. This is neither the aim if Islam nor radical Islam. Conversions are done by Christian missionaries. NOn-Muslims converting to Islam is either voluntary or more complex due to local problems Non-Muslims face in SOME Muslim majority nations.
I think Rehmat’s point is valid. Conversion is mostly a Christian phenomenon, and it’s quite aggressively done, by many accounts (http://bit.ly/fsKhq7). By contrast, the last mass conversion to Islam that I heard of was in 1981 (Meenakshipuam in Tamil Nadu).
Reading the account of those villagers 30 years later (http://bit.ly/h4OLIV), I would wholeheartedly agree with their decision. Given that Hinduism has been so oppressive to the Dalits, I’m all in favour of them converting to other religions to escape the discrimination. More power to them!
This phenomenon (of mass conversion to other religions) also provides a strong incentive to Hinduism to reform itself. That’s happening gradually in any case, but I suspect it is economic forces such as modernisation and urbanisation that are weakening the bonds of caste rather than the fear of conversion.
In any case, if Indian society can weaken the bonds of both caste and organised religion, leaving people as equals, free to practise their private faith or non-faith without external pressure, that will be great. I think the country is gradually moving in that direction anyway.
Regards,
Ganesh Prasad
@Umair
The backgound for the label terrorism is simpler than one thinks. The American administration refused to tell the world what the definition of a terrorism is, in order to avoid being compelled to send Henry Kissinger and oliver north in Prison! Th neocons came up with Islamic terrorism label and received support for the spin even from the Govts.of muslim countries.
KP rhetoric is relatively harmless and is based on NYtimes and WashingtonTimes, whose propaganda incidently is regarded by most Ameericans as gospels. Both papers spend hevy sums (corruption) to gain info from the Govt. sources.
The new phenomina Wikileak told us that the American admin. knew about the lies which Mubarik was sending about the so called Muslim Bros. Nevertheless, the USA used Mubarik for randition purpose and had innocentmuslimsrecive a dose of Egyption tortue. Both Afghanistan and Pakistan Govts should be aware that the CIA people do provide to their admin. about the larifari info the respective Govts. put out simply t assure USA financial support for hir military.
Pakisan needs reforms in military and their education system. The new leaders will have o clear ou the mess, most of which has been created localy.
Pakistan has political disputes with India and they need to be confronted with politcal solutions. No more diplomatic ties with the current Indian Govt.PERIOD.
Name all high schools as Madrassas! religious eduction in schools should be made compulsary if not yet implemented.Peopl who wish to study theology, i.e Islam and wt to tach Islam in chools must graduate simulaneously in Phlosophy.
Islam is the source for knowledge and human values. Let it stand with pride and compete with other faiths. Bth Indian and Pakistani muslims have retained many from the time when they were not of muslim faith and regard them as Islamic, not dfferent from today’s Arab muslims who have kept some of their traditions when their ancestors for infidels. mos of these traditions are harmless but do cause confusion in different sections of the muslim scommunities.
Rex Minor
PS I am proud to have been born a muslim and I thank the almighty Allah( Aramaish language) and God in anglo son language.
Rex:
Well said, war on (t)error is a farce, and in Cairo christians protect Muslims when they are praying, all human beings egpytian citizens from different walks of life, different religious background have come out with one voice. FREEDOM! No more CIA rendition programs, no more torture, people have waken up from Slumber, Julian Assange wikileaks founder has done the damage. He is fighting extradition and in the meantime a whole bunch of other wikileak websites have sprung up to expose the lies.
In Arab now a new awakening is under way, no more neo-con propaganda. All people are equal, interfaith harmony is at display and people are standing up for what they believe in. Their goal was to potray Islam as enemy and muslims as terrorists. And looks they have miserably failed, but frustrated as they are they will continue to the path of destruction. All we nee dto do is to stand up let it be knoiwn what Islam truly stands for.
Rehmat,
May be I did not convey my point clearly in regards to the goal of radical Muslims. Definitely you are correct in the sense that their goal does not compare with those of Evangelical Christians who use a very broad and organizational approach towards conversion. The Saudi Wahabi mission is using similar methods across the world to lure locals into the folds of Islam. And this organization is towards puritanical form of Arab Islam which appeals to the extremists across the world. I’ll refer you to a book titled “My year inside radical Islam” by Daveed Gartenstein-Ross. It could be an issue of sponsorship and funding that radical Muslims look for in the Saudi missions. Al Qaeda is against the Saudi royal family as well. They are trying to use every weapon available to them to achieve their ends.
Though I do not buy the logic used by Western powers, radical Islam does stand up as their number one enemy today. It is the Western powers that propped up radical Islam, gave them support and even accommodated them wherever possible so long as the radicals worked in their favor. Now they do feel threatened to see the boldness and spread of radicalism. There definitely is a lot of anger against radical Muslims in the Western world today. The problem is – they cannot tell the difference between moderate and radical Muslims. And this is what the radicals are trying to capitalize on. This is much similar to insurgency in urban centers. No one can tell the difference between insurgents and locals. Over a period of time, locals get punished for the acts of insurgents and shift their loyalty towards the insurgents. We have seen this in North Eastern Sri Lanka against the IPKF and Indian troops in Kashmir. Now the Americans have begun to feel the heat in Afghanistan as well. That was the point I was making. Driving a wedge takes time and the radicals know this well. They keep saying they have time on their hands.
Umairpk: “All people are equal, interfaith harmony is at display and people are standing up for what they believe in.”
I think you are unaware that you are negating the very basis of creating Pakistan by the above statement. Unless you believe that Muslims have a world on their own in which equality, freedom etc matter only to Muslims and not others. The Europeans have had the belief for a long time. Based on what you have said above, how do you look at the justification for the creation of Pakistan?
KPSingh:You suffer from 1947 partition hang over, the creation of Pakistan is something different. I amtalking in today’s context and the topic under discussion, Pakistan’s pitfalls and future of Egypt. The full name of Egypt is “ARAB REPUBLIC OF EGYPT” and Pakistan is “ISLAMIC REPUBLIC OF PAKISTAN”. So in Egypt they have coptic christians who speak Arabic, but follow a different religion, so you have similarly druze and chrstians in Lebanon. In Pakistan too there are hindus, christian minorities etc. But Pakistan is an Islamic Republic, does not mean that minority should be persecuted or wiped out though. I can share pictures of how christians and Muslims are united in Egypt.
Back in late 1940s in British India, Hindus and Muslims were not on the same page, partition was inevitable, two nation theory emerged and the dream of Pakistan became a reality.
Let us move forward in 2011. There are radicals in this world and so called Terrorists or Resistance, depending upon which side they repesent! Most of the fathers of today’s America were considered in such categries when they fought the colonialist English; today they are worshiped as Fathers of the Nation.
There are also criminals who for one or other reason cut down a human for one or other reason, and these guys shold not be honoured to allocate them a religion. Letus call them atheists or non believers as appropriate in a country.
Let us also not forget politics and especially the machiavelli or the modern spin doctors as well as the evil or devil among us.
For me the one who lies for deception should no longer claim to be the belever. Colin Powel lied to the world about Sadam Hussain and then claimed innocence and then blamed CIA input. Tony Blair and many fellow travellers did the same.
Now I ask Myra, what is the role of Allah in aramaish language that Jesus spoke or God in english language? Pakistan Army should pay special attention to what is happening in the Arab world.I salute the arab and the non Arab youth who are going to move out of the bunkers to construct the new world order. Arab youth had to takethe lead since they are almost two third of their populaion. They are already late in starting the new revolution, which I was expecting in the past decade?
Umair, Europe is not anti-muslim, some politicians are! Muslims are not a minority in this world and they should be conscious of this! It is upto the muslims wheather they regard themselves as a minority or a majority in indvidual countries. Muslims must demonstrate the Islamic values to the non muslims and not their outmoded attires or long beards which is foreign to the western world.
Rex Minor
@Umair
Let us remember that God’s Prophet Mohammad(PBUH) did not bring the message of God for anew religion. Islam was to reinforce and clarify the Ibrahimic religion for Arabs.
Rex Minor
@KP
You are now living in a sort of democratic country. Please try not to get carried away with emotions, which is sometimes needed to unload the pressure, but not to resolve problems. Try to understand and appreciate democracy.
Pakistan was created by the majority of muslims tosolve the racial conflicts in India, not so much perhaps in Punjab and Pakhoonkhwa erhaps. Many innocent lives were lost and many lost their homes.I understand from another blog that those who migrated to India from tday’s Pakistan were rapidly settled by the Indian Govt. and are now fully integrated? Pakistan experience has not so far been a bed of roses.
But we must accept the MAJORITY decision, whether it turns out to be a good thing for thepeople or not?
Rex Minor
Toughluck for you that you are in a country which takes and requires a quarter of a million immigrants and assylum seekers in the country. A cold country larger in size than the USA and have a population less than half of Egypt. Canada is still better off han the USA which requires a larger number of immigrants and is less peaceful tha Canada. My american friends on this blog should recall Obama’s recent speach in Arizona, where a young guy shot down twenty seven innocent lives. Is it something perhaps with eating harme treated animal meat?
Rex Minor
PS
correction;
harmone rich animal meat!
Rex:
“For me the one who lies for deception should no longer claim to be the belever. Colin Powel lied to the world about Sadam Hussain and then claimed innocence and then blamed CIA input. Tony Blair and many fellow travellers did the same.”
-Agreed, and for anyone who claims Pakistan media is controlled by ISI, just google “Operation mockingbird” (an organization that concentrated on “propaganda, economic warfare; preventive direct action, including sabotage, anti-sabotage, demolition and evacuation measures; subversion against hostile states, including assistance to underground resistance groups, and support of indigenous anti-Communist elements in) you will know whose media propaganda is more stronger.
Also Rex, I am aware Europe as a whole is not anti-Muslim there are huge Algerian-Morroco Muslims in France, Britain has many Muslims from diff. backgrounds etc similar in other nations. What I stated is they have few anti-Muslim politicians that incite hatred and fearmongering regarding Muslims. The problem is at govt. level not people’s level.
you also stated:
“Muslims must demonstrate the Islamic values to the non muslims and not their outmoded attires or long beards which is foreign to the western world”
-my question to you is, in all pictures, sculptures/statues, Jesus is shown in beard in the west by christians, similarly Mary is depicted in attire, robe etc. So why is it so unusual for Muslim woman to wear hijab or Muslim men to grow beard? This is where I state politicians have hijacked religion and play their card to stay in power. I agree, Muslims must demonstrate the Islamic values to the non muslims. And those values are, peace, tolerance, brotherhood, equality, unity etc alms for poor etc. We must rather emphasize on these values to remove negative stereotypes.
Umairpk:”Back in late 1940s in British India, Hindus and Muslims were not on the same page, partition was inevitable, two nation theory emerged and the dream of Pakistan became a reality.”
I disagree with this belief. A few Muslims (especially rich ones) who suddenly felt that after the departure of the British, they would have to be under a Hindu majority rule. Most Muslims were happy where they were. And it is these powerful Muslims who triggered violence against non-Muslims. It was called Direct action day. This was a desperate act because their pursuit was losing steam. They knew retaliation would come and it would be directed at the masses. It helped them instill this fear that Hindus are out to destroy Muslims. Your country is still living in that paranoia that these selfish Muslim leaders created. My community is even smaller than yours. And we do not fear Hindu domination. Hindus have their own issues where they are divided by caste and class system. They are not a uniform religious block as being projected in your country. They are more at loggerheads than anyone else.
Now coming to Egypt and Pakistan – Egypt was not carved out of a majority non-Muslim state. They have been Muslims since after the demise of Muhammad. It is their culture that is tolerant of others. Them being Muslims has nothing to do with it. And they hate the Jews. If Jews had lived in a sizable minority status in Egypt, things would be very different. In Pakistan our Punjabi community dominates. And ours is a martial culture. And Muslims from the Punjabi community in Pakistan have turned more towards the intolerant side of Islam. This is due to economic downgrading over a decade or more. If the economy revives and people get jobs, they can turn around. At least the next generation can. To accomplish that goal, foreign investment has to increase, jobs and training have to multiply. In today’s scenario, I do not know how many foreign companies are willing to venture into Pakistan.
Pakistan can run its own revolution against feudal landlords. More than fighting against any dictatorships or corrupt politicians, a revolution can be staged to drive out all feudal landlords and distribute the land amongst the tillers. Until this revolution happens, Pakistan is at the hands of its elites and the military.
Coming to freedom, co-existence etc, these are not something that come into the picture once in a while. They are universal values and they always exist. Only people have to remember them and consciously attempt to achieve them. Prior to independence, Indian politics was dominated by secular minded politicians from the Congress party. They just happened to be Hindus by an accident of birth. But Muslim politicians twisted the reality to gain power on their own by quoting the Hindu majority phobia. The British exploited it to the hilt.
Hope I have made myself clear.
Pakistan: “Pakistan was created by the majority of muslims tosolve the racial conflicts in India, not so much perhaps in Punjab and Pakhoonkhwa erhaps.”
Racial conflicts? Do you have any clear idea about the races in India? Punjabis were one ethnic group with four different religious sub-groups. The majority Muslim group separated itself in the form of religion. Sindh was a distinctly separate ethnic group out of which no Muslim had to migrate into Pakistan, while the non-Muslims Sindhis had to. Pakistan was not divided based on racial lines. It was divided based on flimsy religious lines. And that flimsy argument was proved beyond doubt when Bengali Muslims revolted and fought for their own independence into Bangladesh.
“Many innocent lives were lost and many lost their homes.I understand from another blog that those who migrated to India from tday’s Pakistan were rapidly settled by the Indian Govt. and are now fully integrated? Pakistan experience has not so far been a bed of roses.”
India focused on nation building. It wanted to settle the migrants as quickly as possible and move on. In Pakistan, Muhajirs are still in conflict with others. I have seen Umair mention about Musharraf as “Hindustara.”
Muslim leaders staged violent protests and managed to carve a nation out for themselves. But after that they had no further agenda. Pakistan was sought and it was a reality. They had no answer to what was next. No one had any plans to build a nation. So the feudal system remained and has taken Pakistan to ruination. But for making itself a key ally in super power rivalry, Pakistan would have fallen apart long ago. It is the cold war that helped Pakistan survive through its military. A country cannot be run by living off the paranoia of a neighboring state for too long. That is why instead of building a nation, Pakistan is building more nukes. More than it really needs.
“But we must accept the MAJORITY decision, whether it turns out to be a good thing for thepeople or not?”
If that is the case, the majority did not support the creation of Pakistan. So who decided that they should separate?
BTW, I am not living in the partition day memories. To me partition has led to the misery we face today. It has not benefited anyone. It has not made lives better for anyone. It destroyed families. It separated out families. It led to the massacre of close to two million people. It led to conflicts and now a nuclear threat that can destroy the 1.5 billion people of entire South Asia. I am looking at matters from the objectives to end result stand point. If partition happened like Malaysia and Singapore, that would have been fine. Singapore progressed into an ultra modern city state. And Malaysia developed on its own into a progressive Islamic state. They both are not pointing the barrels of their guns at each other. True leaders think of all consequences of their actions and act accordingly. Politicians on the other hand look for short sighted goals that help them gain in the short run. They can always switch colors according to times which true leaders will not. Pakistan was the result of short sighted and selfish politicians that included some Muslims and the British politicians. India had a leader and the country was formed and built on his principles.
If partition had not happened, the war against the Soviets would not have happened. Progress could have happened across the whole South Asian region. Islamic radicalism, rise of the Madrasas, Jihad, 9/11, London, Madrid, Mumbai attacks, 70000 deaths in Kashmir due to insurgency etc would not have happened. There was a lot to gain by not partitioning than by partitioning. I am looking at things from that stand point. I know that Pakistan now is a reality and I have no issues with that. However, in order to seek a solution to today’s stalemate in South Asia, one needs to know the real truth behind the past historical events. Many Pakistanis and Muslims have been misled.
It is important to build bridges than walls. But I see the preference to be for the latter. Pakistan is becoming more radical which means the wall has to go even taller. And all this end result is due to the partition done decades ago, dividing people living next to each other in peace.
@Umair
Muslim women can wear any design of dress they prefer, wear a so called hijab if they want and grow beards if they want. But do not clam that it has something to do with Islam! The Europeans had hese attires centuris ago and those who want to come to western Europe are expected by local communities to integrate and not cleate separate ghettos. Let us recall that over a century ago the Egyptian women got rid of their veils in the so called Maidan e Tahreer well over a century ago.
History is the evidence that civilisation, which came from the east became fully anchored in Europe and progressed, whereas, the colonistion followed by the authoritative and regressive Govts. negatively impacted the progress of many Nations.
People in Europe are learning for the first time that opposition muslim parties in Arab counties were democratic in their vision, pluralistic and were more involved in social well being of their people than those in the Govt. who had built up a massive security apparatus simply to keep and perpetuate their rule over the people. A quick study has revealed that more than 60 percent arabians would like o have Turkish stye Govt., an Islamic Republic, practicing muslims with a secular Govt., which aceptes human rights and democracy with minority participation as equals.
I trust that no one is going to tell me that this is not what Islam is all about.
Rex Minor
PS
I came across a suggestion from an Indian hindu by the name of Sudhir, who said something along the lines that in Pakistan, instead of blaming muslim clergy who quote Quraan references in their speaches, the liberals could also quote Quraan references in the rebuttal. This gentleman obviously had some knowledge of the scriptures.
@KP
Most probably you are right in your analysis. We must, however, move on and curse if you will those who made errors before us in their time. We do not have unlimited time and try not to make the same errors. We have the stregnth to move things forward, if one, two and more desire it.
Rex Minor
@Umair
sorry my note book is playing silly at this time.
It is a sheer non-sennse for any one to state that intelligence services of a country has a control over the country. Intelligence agencies task is to provide info. to their Govts. and it is the Govt. who are responsible for the decision which are made on the infowhich is gathered.
ISI is competent and in my view of world class. And since Pakistan military was and is more powerful than the civilan Govt ( something like the former state of affairs in Turkey), this made ISI as powerful as the CIA.
This blog is under review by several intelligence agencies, simply because our Indian friends have been including abbreviations, to which the computers are allergic to in Langley and other centres. I quoted Chairman Mao, the great philosopher of our time and back came the response from guess, who? The commander of the airbourne division and Nuclear force in Afghanistan!He was also very kind to tell the author of the article on Afghan Blog, what the American strategic objective is!
So be careful, do not say what you are not supposed to say!
Rex Minor
@”Muslims must demonstrate the Islamic values to the non muslims. And those values are, peace, tolerance, brotherhood, equality, unity etc alms for poor etc. We must rather emphasize on these values to remove negative stereotypes.” Posted by Umairpk
Demonstrating the real islamic values would be a good thing but you also need to accept that there are radical/extremist elements within your community which encourage terrorism. Denying something which is so blatantly obvious to others or blaming someone else for it or making excuses for it, alienates non-muslims even more. For me, personally, nothing causes more exasperation than a muslim saying that 9/11 was an inside CIA job or that the mumbai attacks were a farce planned by RAW. It tells me that, that particular individual does not care for non-muslim lives.
The Daily Times editorial “Territorial Solidarity for Kashmir” has been noticed by the Hindustan Times as well.
http://bit.ly/ecv9hm
Could this bit of honest analysis break the logjam?
Regards,
Ganesh Prasad
Pakistan: “I quoted Chairman Mao, the great philosopher of our time”
Great philosopher? Do you have any idea what you are talking about? Mao was a tyrant. He is famous for the deaths of close to 25 million Chinese who died due to his experiments. Go read some authentic German references if you do not want to believe my words. On one side you talk about human rights, freedom etc. On the other side you praise those who violated all these norms. You are making absolutely no sense. What exactly is your true belief? How can you claim to be a supporter of human rights when you call a monster like Mao dze Dong a great philosopher?
Mortal1: “For me, personally, nothing causes more exasperation than a muslim saying that 9/11 was an inside CIA job or that the mumbai attacks were a farce planned by RAW. It tells me that, that particular individual does not care for non-muslim lives.”
And many who demand rights from others are also celebrated when the twin towers fell.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KrM0dAFsZ 8k
@Ganesh/KPS
Ganesh, Thanks for posting articles on conversion!
@KPS
“Though I do not buy the logic used by Western powers, radical Islam does stand up as their number one enemy today.
***Radical Islam is a danger to Islamic countries as much as it is to the West. There is a need to identify and address the root causes which stop this cycle. History cannot be undone but it certainly can be prevented from being repeated. 9/11 was bad and post-9/11 has been worse. Iraq which saw cruelties from Sadaam saw worse since his fall. Iraq is in chaotic violence and Af-Pak is worse than it was during Taliban/ISI syndicate. I would say Kashmir so far has escaped the attention of majority of radicals, despite what has been happening. Only devoted ones like LeT/JeM are in action there so far. India should watch its own ass and not lose any window of opportunity to see the picture at a bigger level and do something about it.
++++++++++++
Separately, some people here are having free ride on Reuters. How lucky I am to know that Mao, Lao Tzu and Dalai Lama are in the same league!!!
@Mortal
“For me, personally, nothing causes more exasperation than a muslim saying that 9/11 was an inside CIA job or that the mumbai attacks were a farce planned by RAW. It tells me that, that particular individual does not care for non-muslim lives.”
***If you think about it these are early signs of secular opinion because 35-40 Muslims also died and they still maintain that view!!!
@Mortal
correction:
In Mumbai, “35-40 Muslims also died” and these individuals still maintain that view.
Rehmat: “I would say Kashmir so far has escaped the attention of majority of radicals, despite what has been happening. Only devoted ones like LeT/JeM are in action there so far. India should watch its own ass and not lose any window of opportunity to see the picture at a bigger level and do something about it.”
Fully agree here. But any Indian move to settle anything in Kashmir will be negated by vested groups. Let us say India goes in and sets up a plebiscite there (assuming most Indians are on board), the elements in Pakistan will not let that process go through. The reason is simple – these elements have been created and nurtured to take on India not just in Kashmir, but even beyond that. Settling Kashmir is bad news for them. They want Kashmir hostilities to continue for as long as it takes. They care a rat’s rear end for the welfare of Kashmiris or anyone else. Right now Kashmiri Muslims’ protests against India are aligned with their goals. If they see anyone trying to settle matters with India peacefully, they will launch an offensive. Let us not be too naive here. That is probably the reason why India has not removed most of its troops from Kashmir despite the relative peace there compared to the 1990s. There is probably a lot of intelligence information to the Home ministry to avoid making the wrong move. See this link. Everything is organized according to a plan.
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/india /A-stone-pelter-in-Kashmir-gets-paid-Rs -400-a-week/articlesho/7173104.cms
Right now Kashmir is quiet not because of some revelation to the Pakistani military. They are up to their neck along with their elements tackling the Americans in the neighborhood. It is the American presence that has kept all these elements quiet in Kashmir. Musharraf did try on a few occasions to push and prod Kashmir and did not succeed in it.
I want the Americans to stay in the neighborhood for as long as it takes. This way, these elements will starve to extinction. With the diplomatic row over the American in Pak custody, things are at a tipping point for Pakistan.
There is not much India can do with Kashmiri Muslims who are puppets on a string being manipulated by Pak military. It is a total waste of time and effort. I’d like life to return to normalcy there. However, we are not the only player in the game there. Any move will be met with counter move – be it offensive or diplomatic.
@KP
You are not startig the snowbal game. I do not have the correct numbers who died on account of long march or thecultural revolution or those who died defending China against Imperial Japan. I must admit I do not have the death umbers caused by Stalin, hitler or Churchal either. For the USA the jury is still out as to the deaths caused by its military. I have only the red book and it tells me the sort of political thinker he was. Reading your post I get the impression that you would like the American military to fight for India, this is something the Americans have never done. They are not sending their lads to die for Indian occupation of Kashmir. In fact this is one thing they a’nt going to do. If you want to protect ancient statues, join the Canadian contingent and rescue whatever is left of them! Alternatively, you could decide to join the world and call for peace. I wish that you would choose the latter.
Rex Minor
Pakistan: “I have only the red book and it tells me the sort of political thinker he was.”
He was a warped tyrant who was no different than Pol Pot in Kampuchea. Human life had no value for him. Based on your analysis, I guess you would admire Hitler’s “Mein Kampf” too. If Mao is a great philosopher, I wonder what you would call Hitler as! And I am sure he has your admiration because he hated Jews as much as you do in your heart. All this talk of love and peace from your end is empty. Those who love other humans, will not admire someone like Mao. You admire him because his country is on your country’s side right now. In the 1990s when America turned a blind eye to Pakistan’s evil acts, Pakistanis swore by America too. They had a lot of admiration for many of their Republican leaders. Now that America has learned the truth and is trying to do the right thing, you guys have shifted camp and are admiring Mao, the great philosopher despite being a Godless infidel that you people also detest on the other side. You are mixing political alliance with religion, philosophy and so on. In short, you are very confused.
As regards to America fighting on behalf of India, I welcome that. It is their encouragement all these years that have led to China and Pakistan becoming such threatening entities from our perspective. So let them clean up what they have created. We did not involve in the whole game then. We do not have to involve ourselves now. Let the Americans clean up their dog waste in our neighborhood with their own hands. We are going to sit and watch. We only have to make sure that trash does not fall in our direction.
@KPS
Americans cannot stay for ever, and India and Pakistan cannot go on without solving K-issue. Be it plebescite or back channel talks or genuine/cosmetic moves, something has to be done for Kashmiris. Until 1989, Kashmir was largely doing OK with India. Since 1989 (about 20years) it is worsening, forgetting for a moment who is culprit behind it. Larger the investment of time and energy of Kashmiris, bigger will become the challenge for India.
I am not looking for a 3 party peace solution here immediately but more of a question of can India do better than this for Kashmiris until Pakistan gets its act together. From pre-1989 to now we have traveled quite a bit to reach here. With 20more years I expect the silent Kashmiris to join the crowd. WE know it that such situations never get better just by wishing. Before India is forced to move, India should make a move on its own. Can there be 500Rs/week for youth for not throwing stones? I do not mean literally but in terms of getting Kashmiri youth busy with jobs and stuff to do and enough money. These 20 year old pellet throwers are going to decide next 50 years of Kashmir. I know it is not easy to fix this but we know Indian Center govt can act as mentally retarded sometimes.
Rehmat,
Your points are genuine. The problem is who gets to bell the cat. We do not know how the Indian public of this generation will react to any softening decision on Kashmir. This generation has grown up believing it is an integral part of India. Any government that lets Kashmir separate from the union will never make it back. There is no grand leader like Gandhi whom the people believed. If Gandhi had been here now and the people respected and loved him as much as they did prior to independence, he would have had the courage to say let Kashmir go and no one would have raised any question. India now has politicians who can sell their mothers if needed. There is hardly any respect for them. Now if they chalk out a settlement, without consulting the Indian public through a referendum, pandemonium will result. In the case of Pakistan, its military decides everything. For them the solution is simple – get Kashmir liberated out of India and that is good enough for now. They are not doing this for the welfare of Kashmiris. Their policy is one dimensional – settle scores with India on any possible matter and watch Indians burn in frustration.
No Indian politicians will dare raise the topic of settling anything in Kashmir. If he or she did, his political career will be over. So all of them will dance around it and do nothing about it. You and I can sit and demand that sensible politicians must do something. Which politician is willing to dig his own grave?
The current generations of Kashmiris have alienated themselves from India already. There is nothing in their hearts that will offer any room for India even as a friendly neighbor. We have another Pakistan created there thanks to the brutal insurgency and counter insurgency. The damage is done. From this angle, their independence is the only way out. The question is how does one achieve that without any long term consequences to Indian leaders, their political careers, and public acceptance from the rest of India. We have taken years to quell down the Hindutva wave. They have run out of ideas. Letting go of Kashmir will give them a new lease of life and they will be back with a vengeance. This time they will target other Muslims in India to enhance their chances.
Thirdly, there is Pakistan in all this. They are looking for any chance to create divisions inside India and widen them up. From their stand point a large Indian nation makes them feel threatened. If India takes the initiative of settling Kashmir, they have enough elements there who would want to deepen that further. This is not an imaginary scenario. And these groups are violent, powerful and have a lot of influence on their policies.
If Pakistan had not interfered so much into Kashmir, it could have been settled long ago. Actually, prior to 1989, Kashmiri Muslims had settled well with India. It was the insurgency that set up the barriers that prevents India from taking any concrete steps there. And it has managed to alienate the public there.
In this circumstance, how can one set up business and jobs there for their youth? Tourism industry has been shut down. Garment industry is down. There is nothing else. No Indian business can set up business there. The boundary conditions are very limiting. How does one go about solving the matter while addressing all the limiting factors at the same time?
And Kashmir has become a geo-strategic region. This means its resolution will come only by means of a terrible war. Diplomacy has not worked. Pakistan has been itching to try its nuclear gloves. This is unfortunate. As I see it, I do not find any solutions that will work. When solutions do not work, war is the final solution. Whether we like it or not, war will bring the final solution. It is unclear who will emerge as the winner in that war. I can say clearly it will not be Kashmiris. That state is going to be reduced to rubble by this war.
I think Indian pundits have realized this inevitable end. As a result, they are keeping the military there at all costs. That could be one reason why they are not seeking any settlement there. Why would anyone set up businesses, jobs etc in a place which is going to bear the brunt of a major war? I am sure they are getting all indications of what is brewing inside Pakistan. At some point it has to explode on the face. India’s strategy might be to wait it out and watch the developments. There is a faint chance that Pakistan can spin out of control and that turmoil might diffuse the tension in Kashmir or backfire. I think it is the gamble our leaders are taking.
Unfortunately, Kashmir will bring the end to a lot of things in South Asia. Only I cannot tell with definite vision which ones will end.
KP Singh said:
> If Gandhi had been here now and the people respected and loved him as much as they did prior to independence, he would have had the courage to say let Kashmir go and no one would have raised any question.
I’m afraid I must disagree on this, KP. There are even more Godses in India today than in 1948. Gandhi wouldn’t have got very far.
I think India has made a grave tactical mistake in the bargain over Kashmir. If you go to a shop and haggle over something, the shopkeeper will start at Rs. 100, you will start at Rs. 50, then he will come down to Rs. 90 and you will try Rs. 60. Finally you will settle at Rs. 75 and both will go away happy. But if you try to be reasonable and start at Rs. 75, then the shopkeeper will definitely take advantage of what he sees as your foolishness and will then get you to go up to Rs. 85 or even Rs. 90.
This is what India has done. If you notice, AJK and GB are not even on the table anymore, even though the official Indian position (as implied by Indian maps) is that these are part of India. So Pakistan has very understandably taken advantage of this Indian foolishness and now acts as if only IHK (Indian Held Kashmir) is under discussion. Formalising the LoC as the international border is the Rs. 75 solution, but India has committed a tactical blunder by opening the bargaining with Rs. 75, tacitly allowing Pakistan to keep AJK and GB. India should have started with the Rs. 50 gambit, i.e., demand the return of AJK and GB, loudly and at every opportunity. Then the Pakistanis will be happy to settle at Rs. 75 and formalise the LoC. Now they expect at least Rs. 85, which is India giving up the Kashmir Valley.
For all the criticism of India’s “bania” mentality, I’m afraid we don’t have enough of it.
Regards,
Ganesh Prasad
@Rehmat: “I would say Kashmir so far has escaped the attention of majority of radicals, despite what has been happening. Only devoted ones like LeT/JeM are in action there so far. India should watch its own ass and not lose any window of opportunity to see the picture at a bigger level and do something about it.”
Couldn’t agree more! The problem here is that the big fat ass of the Indian govt is too slow, lethargic & politically motivated to take quick action in Kashmir, while the window is still open. Economic reforms is the need of the hour in Kashmir. Incentivize & subsidize investments by companies like Tata, Reliance, Infosys etc., put the kashmiri youth to work & they will drop the bricks over time.
Ganesh,
You have completely ignored the carefully planned proxy war that Pakistan staged and succeeded in Kashmir over almost 15 years. This was the main reason for thing to tilt against India. There was no room for any bargains. If India had started an insurgency inside AJK to counter Pakistan’s indirect offensive, along with other in roads in other parts of Pakistan, from a strategic stand point, India could have handled Kashmir better. Unfortunately at that time too the USA was on the opposite camp and it did not allow India to make any counter moves.
I have no problem in Kashmir going on its own. I respect the will of the people. But it has to be a free will. It is not something that is induced on them by building up their frustrations. See this link:
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/india /We-not-India-killed-our-own-people-Hur riyat-leader/articleshow/7210759.cms
We are falling into the hands of wily Pakistani military’s trap. Right now it is busy keeping its assets hidden and dodging the Americans. Its attention is fully on that side. And that has given some relief to the Kashmir. We do not know what exactly is going on. We have no access to intelligence reports that Home ministry gets on a regular basis. There must be a reason why India has not pulled out our military from Kashmir and why it is being made to appear brutal by carefully orchestrated campaign.
I want security perimeter around our country. That is the most important thing for me. From that stand point backing out of Kashmir now will be suicidal. Especially at this time. Kashmiris have been so alienated that any move from the Indian side will be looked at with suspicion. It is easy to say businesses should be set up there. Which businessman will dare venture there and set up his business? Who is investing in Pakistan today? Do even countries want to play cricket there? For businesses to come in and set up shop the locals have to tone down their militant attitude and help build confidence. They need to do their part as well. I don’t blame them. They are severely hurt. Many of their youth have disappeared or have died. When such anger and attitude is built up, no business can flourish there. For that matter no business flourishes even in states like West Bengal and Kerala. Their people have cross migrated everywhere and have learned to survive. Are Kashmiris being prevented from working elsewhere in India? Why can’t they send their youth outside to work in mainland India? That way they can get to see for themselves that no one hates them. They can be reassured about the myth of Muslims being victims of Hindus. A lot can be done. But people have to seek a way out first. Govt of India can set up job quota for Kashmiris in Indian administrative services and other available opportunities. Kashmiris should be inducted into Indian military.
Reliance, Tata, Birla etc can help them if Kashmiris seek jobs outside their states. Or they can set up something to get these youths more opportunities. They have stayed isolated and do not want to venture out. They need to be persuaded to come in and mix with Indian mainstream. UP has more Muslims than Kashmir. They are not demanding a separate nation. We can’t afford to keep on dividing anymore. You guys are so terrified by the thought of Pakistan splitting up. Imagine what one cut up of India will do at this time.
Govt of India can think of ways to provide Kashmiris opportunities inside India for sure. In that regard they have sat on their fat rear ends. But Kashmir, like Afghanistan, is an extremely geo-strategic location for India at this time. That is the reason why Pakistan is trying everything to drive us out of both places.
This campaign happened just a few days ago when the secretary level talks were being set up at Thimpu.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NeO-i3y0_ sQ&NR=1&feature=fvwp
All you liberal Indians should not ignore this reality. There are different groups inside Pakistan with different goals and agendas. We have to hold on to our grip and wait. Right now the public mood in Kashmir is not favorable to India. And India does not have any chance of building bridges there at this time. We have to wait for things to calm down. Fact finding mission has gone there and their recommendations will need to be assessed. Kashmir should have been settled in the 1950s. This is the wrong time to settle it. I definitely do not want two hostile nations sitting on the same side of the border with a bigger monster backing them up. We cannot ignore geo-strategic reasons currently. This stalemate will only end in a war and the war will offer a solution to all parties. I see no other way out.
KP Singh said:
> You have completely ignored the carefully planned proxy war that Pakistan staged and succeeded in Kashmir over almost 15 years.
Not at all. I’m saying that irrespective of what has happened in the past, India has not been very smart about managing the terms of the current Kashmir debate. If indeed the demand of the Kashmiris is Azadi, why aren’t the Pakistanis acting embarrassed about their occupation of AJK and GB? Surely it’s not just India that’s the occupier?
It’s a massive PR failure on the part of the Indian government that Pakistan is able to act like the wronged party and purports to speak on behalf of the Kashmiris when it stands equally guilty of denying sovereignty to the Kashmiris.
India needs some bold leadership that can put adversaries on the defensive.
1. Pakistan must be made to feel that any further escalation of the Kashmir issue will result in the formation of an independent Republic of Kashmir, with them losing the territories of AJK and GB. They will claim not to mind, but if it looms credibly, I’ll bet they will quietly opt for formalising the LoC instead. Nobody likes to lose territory for the sake of another, as the Arabs’ thus-far-and-no-further support for the Palestinians shows.
2. Kashmiris must be made to realise that any further agitation will see their little paradise pushed out of India into the arms of an imploding Pakistan. They read newspapers, too, I’m sure, and should have no illusions about their welcome in a “pluralistic” society where one had better be Sunni and Punjabi or else. Army heavyhandedness needs to be tackled for sure, but ingratitude also needs to be shown up.
3. China must be made to realise that if Arunachal Pradesh can be called South Tibet, then the question of Tibet itself is also up for discussion. Stapled visas can be issued by anyone! Aksai Chin and the territory ceded by Pakistan should be brought up regularly and used for bargaining. The Chinese are hypersensitive about certain topics, and India must keeping harping on them till they get the message.
Will the Indian government grow some spine? Even the Pakistanis will respect us more if we don’t appear like fools and wimps. Some bold and imaginative bargaining is required to settle all issues. Adversaries also grow less greedy and more realistic in the face of strength, and they’ll also go away satisfied with much less. But I guess this is as pathetic a hope as the Pakistanis who pray for Imran Khan to come to power!
Regards,
Ganesh Prasad
@KP
I am not going to keep on repeating my views of the world. right at this moment the German parlimenterans are debating the developments in egypt. One of the meers from the socialist party complained that German people have been misled by friendly Govts that Islamists and Islamic parties represnt terrorism.
Let me also say that xenophobia was present throughout Europe( and still exist) during ww2 was not the speciality of German people. Hitler was the most popular leader in Ausria and Germany and was popularly elected as a Chancellor of Germany.
PK, I like Wagner .but not his antijewish writings about jewish people in Germany. I am not reuired to jugge others since I shall be judged. I do however, protest against injustice in our world.
There has been a recent awakening among the Europeans in terms of democracy cry fom the so called muslim counries. You guys have been going in circles about Kashmir issue and despite your sincerety you show reluctance to concede the right of self determination to kashmiri people.
Rex Minor
Rex Minor said:
> You guys have been going in circles about Kashmir issue and despite your sincerety you show reluctance to concede the right of self determination to kashmiri people.
Nonsense! Don’t you read what we write here? We’re only commenting about Pakistani double-standards here. India is not the only country occupying Kashmir territory. Pakistan is also in occupation of a sizeable chunk of Kashmir (Azad Jammu-Kashmir (AJK) and Gilgit-Baltistan (GB)). And China occupies the rest.
Have a look at the map on Shabir Choudhry’s blog:
http://bit.ly/ePxJZZ
Only the red part is occupied by India. Do you see how big the green and yellow parts are? The brown area was “gifted” by Pakistan to China. China also occupied part of Kashmir after defeating India in a border war in 1962 (the blue part).
Can you see? Less than half of Kashmir (by area) is under Indian control. Why don’t you take Pakistan and China to task for not conceding the right to self-determination to the Kashmiri people, eh? They occupy the majority of Kashmiri territory.
(As usual though, I don’t expect an honest answer from you, only more fact-fudging and stomach-based opinions. But try and be honest for a change.)
Regards,
Ganesh Prasad
@Umair
“I agree, Muslims must demonstrate the Islamic values to the non muslims. And those values are, peace, tolerance, brotherhood, equality, unity etc alms for poor etc. We must rather emphasize on these values to remove negative stereotypes.”
Good. Now tell me when this does not happen and IS not happening in quite a few parts of the world then who is to blame and who should improve?? Non-Muslims (Kaafirs)??
And how about answering Ganesh’s question above (although he asked Rex for honest answer) but I think you can sometimes be more honest (when you are not emotional)?
@Ganesh
Next time Rex puts up rubbish then just push some google search for some crap terms, down his throat to shut him up.
@Rex
Yes only oneself can tell if oneself is dumb or not BUT there are exceptions to every rule. In your case anyone can tell you are a moron dumb fool for considering google search numbers as a measure of things.
There is one thing that Kashmiri Muslims can do. And no one will be able to stand up to them. If they watched the events in Egypt, they can all walk into the streets without resorting to violence and start throwing flowers at the Indian soldiers. If they get beaten or shot, take it and keep up the non-violent resistance. Every soldier has a heart. When they see that the protesters are non-violent and demand only independence, the world will watch. Only tears will fall. India will have no face to stop this protest. It will be forced to make the deal and get the hell out of Kashmir. Can they do it? If they did, I will salute them.
I keep saying that I am against using religion as a reason for dividing nations. I still stick with that belief. But if people use non-violent means to demand what they want, my principle can take a back seat and my first priority will be to honor them and offer their wish. I have argued for geo-strategic reasons in the region. But my first priority is people’s will. If they demand peacefully, they will get what they demand. Then it is up to them to manage the consequences that would follow.
Under the current circumstances, what I have suggested is the only way Kashmiris can solve their own problems.
If they resort to violence because they believe in it, then they will face the barrel of the gun.
Ganesh: “It’s a massive PR failure on the part of the Indian government that Pakistan is able to act like the wronged party and purports to speak on behalf of the Kashmiris when it stands equally guilty of denying sovereignty to the Kashmiris.”
Right from the time of independence, there is one area in which Pakistan has defeated India – diplomatic skills. India has government bureaucrats who lack people skills. In the past they were arrogant, snobbish and rude to the core. Krishna Menon exemplified it. He really kept taking stabs at the Americans at the beginning. Pakistan did not have the experience at diplomacy at the start. But without any experience, they charmed everyone. It has continued to this day. Westerners have fallen for their hospitality and diplomacy. Their attitude towards Indian diplomats is the exact opposite. India has been very poor at PR skills. Charm can work like magic. There is no awareness in India even today that one has to hide emotions and provide comfort to the other party to make a gain on diplomatic issues. Most Indians do not even smile at others. This is something one realizes when he makes a trip to countries like US and Canada. People do not look through others. Diplomacy starts at that level and goes all the way to the top.
Pakistan’s nuclear program through clandestine means was achieved using the same charm. And they have unleashed the same diplomatic skills to push India on the defensive and made it look like the villain, in regards to Kashmir. One thing they do is relentless campaign, filled with a lot of lies. But consistency pays in the end. They go very unanimous in this campaign, especially on any matter related to India. Look at how the Pakistanis and their supporters here deal with us. They repeat the same thing again and again. If you convince them with facts, they go silent. Again after sometime they repeat the same thing. Lying convincingly is an art. Watch Musharraf videos and you will see how he manages to pull out one lie after another and dodges poking questions.
KP,
Pakistani diplomats can be as charming as they want to be but ultimately the world has realized that a liar is a liar, despite being charming & pleasant to the eyes. IMO, it started with the Kargil war, when Pakistan’s lies was first exposed in the eyes of the world & they have been continuously getting exposed & embaarassed since then, whether it’s their double dealing in the war in Af-Pak or their denials during the Mumbai attacks. In fact, all their lying has gotten them in a situation where even some of their truth is not accepted as such, anymore.
@KP
You have a good read of history and have the ability to learn to read the future history(tobe written), which some call it vision. When you are successful, then tell us what the future actions of the antagonists in the Asian subcontinent are going to be?
Ganesh, Sorry you have shown your biased part too often! It is very difficult for you to admit that only Kashmiris have the right to decide their own future! No one else, neither India nor Pakistan and certainly not China which you have decided to drag in! People not territory decides the future. The whole of the western world have come out for the first time in my living memory that only the Egyptian people have the right to decide, what their future is going to be. Turkey has become the symbol of democrcy for the Egyptians, muslims and coptics as well as other minoriies.
GW was the only one who came out on this blog and agreed that only the Kashmiris should be allowed to decide what they want for their future! None of you guys supported him and this is sad when you indicate that some of you are living in the west and believe in secular democracies.
I do not blame those who live in India or Pakistan and have a restricted view of the world still based on territory, geo. strategic considrations etc. The real world has moved on and the colonialists have just about lost evrything, except for a number of few outposts(bases) which some are still trying to hang on to!
There is no need to get involved in the detective work, perhaps one of these days,I may call on you. Australia is not foreign for me nor are the outskirts of sydney.
Rex Minor