Army, Allah and America: on Pakistani pitfalls and the future of Egypt

January 30, 2011

egyptAll countries are unique and comparing two of the world’s most populous Muslim countries, Egypt and Pakistan, is as risky as comparing Britain to France at the time of the French Revolution. But many of the challenges likely to confront Egypt as it emerges from the mass protests against the 30-year-rule of President Hosni Mubarak are similar to those Pakistan has faced in the past, and provide at least a guide on what questions need to be addressed.  In Pakistan, they are often summarised as the three A’s — Army, Allah and America.

Both have powerful armies which are seen as the backbone of the country; both have to work out how to accommodate political Islam with democracy, both are allies of America, yet with people who resent American power in propping up unpopular elites.

As my Reuters colleague Alastair Lyon writes,  Egypt’s sprawling armed forces — the world’s 10th biggest and more than 468,000-strong — have been at the heart of power since army officers staged the 1952 overthrow of the monarchy. Mubarak’s announcement that he was naming his intelligence chief Omar Suleiman as vice-president was seen as a move towards an eventual, military-approved handover of power.  And Egyptian protesters have sometimes tried to see the army as their ally — an institution that puts country first before personal gain.

Yet armies, as Pakistan has discovered over its many years of on-again off-again military rule, are not designed for democracy. They are designed to be efficient, and with that comes the hierarchy and obedience to authority that would seem alien to many of those out on the streets of Cairo.

In his book about the Pakistan Army, defence expert Brian Cloughley writes about how the British general, the Duke of Wellington, responded to democracy in his first cabinet meeting as prime minister: ”An extraordinary affair. I gave them their orders and they wanted to stay and discuss them.” The story is told as part of an argument about why the Pakistan Army has never been particularly successful at running the country.

“All Pakistan’s army coups have been bloodless, successful and popular – but popular only for a while,” he writes. “The trouble is that military people are usually quite good at running large organisations, even civilian ones, but generally fail to understand politics and government, and the give-and-take so necessary in that esoteric world.”

It is a lesson that may yet need to be learned in Egypt.  As Amil Khan wrote from Islamabad in his Twitter feed,  “Love the way Pakistani twitterers puzzled by Egyptians’ trust in army. Guys, you’re kinda similar, but kinda different.”

Then there is political Islam. Both Pakistan and Egypt have powerful religious parties which have their roots in Islamist movements born out of Muslim resentment against British colonial rule.  In Pakistan, the Jamaat-e-Islami, founded in then British India, has, along with other religious parties played a disproportionately significant role in setting the agenda which goes well beyond their weak showing at the ballot box.  It has reached the point where no government — either civilian or military — has dared challenge them on issues of faith.  When Salman Taseer, governor of Punjab province, was shot dead by his own security guard earlier this month over his opposition to the country’s blasphemy laws,  his killer was celebrated as a hero.  Few dared speak out and most of Taseer’s colleagues in the ruling Pakistan People’s Party (PPP) were quick to insist there would no changes to the laws.

Many attribute the grip of religious parties on Pakistani society to the use of Islam as a means of uniting the country’s different ethnic groups, to past support by its military for mujahideen fighting the Soviets in Afghanistan and then the Indians in Kashmir, and to the Islamicisation policies of General Zia-ul-Haq. But over the years every politician has made use of the religious parties to bolster their support, including PPP founder Zulfiqar Ali Bhutto, who declared the minority Ahmadi sect as non-Muslims in 1974, and was later deposed and hanged by Zia in 1979.

In particular, argues Manan Ahmed in this essay titled “Pakistan’s crisis can’t simply be explained by religion”, Pakistan politicised reverence for the Prophet Mohammed.  “This emergence of the Prophet as a centralising and orienting raison d’etre for Pakistan, however, was not merely an organic outgrowth of a religiously inclined society, it was a deliberate state policy, aided by Islamist parties, to mould public faith. The blasphemy riots of the 1950s, when the Ahmadi sect was violently resisted by the Jama’at-i Islami, had taught one clear lesson to the religious right: the veneration of Muhammad was great political theatre with infinite malleability for nearly every segment of the Pakistani population.”

Unlike Pakistan, Egypt has more ethnic homogeneity and, with its large Coptic population, greater religious diversity so – on paper at least – political Islam would be less obvious as a unifying force. The Muslim Brotherhood, founded like the Jamaat-e-Islami in opposition to British rule, has taken a low profile in the Egyptian protests, though as former Reuters bureau chief in Cairo Jonathan Wright argues in his blog, this may be a deliberately calibrated stance.

“The Brotherhood, like Islamist groups in many Arab countries, has cold feet about governing. It does not feel it is ready. This is reflected in its official strategy of concentrating on a political reform agenda which it shares with many other groups – free and fair elections, rule of law, a new constitution with checks and balances and so on. What the Brotherhood wants most in the short term is the freedom to organize and promote its ideas in a democratic environment, regardless of who is in government. The Brotherhood believes that, given freedom and time, it can win over Egyptians to its long-term agenda.”

The Pew Global Attitudes Survey released in December also suggested that Egyptians might actually be more in favour of Islam playing a role in society than Pakistanis.  Ninety-five percent of Egyptians questions said it was good for Islam to play a large role in politics, compared to 88 percent of Pakistanis. “At least three-quarters of Muslims in Egypt and Pakistan say they would favor making each of the following the law in their countries: stoning people who commit adultery, whippings and cutting off of hands for crimes like theft and robbery and the death penalty for those who leave the Muslim religion,” it said.

Finally there is America, which has propped up military rulers in both countries and used generous quantities of American aid to buy support first against communism and then against militant Islam.  In Pakistan, the United States is already struggling to foster civilian, democratic rule at a time when it is deeply distrusted.  It is likely to face similar challenges in Egypt if it chooses, and manages, to go down that route.

Moreover, while the United States was able to underpin the growth of stable, secular democracies in Europe following World War Two with huge amounts of trade and aid, the world nowadays is still recovering from financial crisis.  And as Pakistan’s Dawn newspaper noted, the world’s Muslim populations face faster-than-average growth rates at a time of increasing global competition for resources.  At least some of the unrest in the Middle East, especially in Tunisia, was fuelled by anger over rising food prices. It is not an easy time for any country to win over people looking for an end to poverty and unemployment.

161 comments

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[...] This post was mentioned on Twitter by Swat Crisis, Omer Khan, PakNatSec NewsWatch, A. Zuberi, A. Zuberi and others. A. Zuberi said: RT @ReutersPakistan: Army, Allah and America: on Pakistani pitfalls and the future of Egypt http://dlvr.it/FQvff [...]

I hope the turmoils stay local and confined to the different countries instead of spreading across the region. Tunisia influenced Egypt. Now if Egypt manages to oust Mubarak, there might be a similar revolt in Iran where theocracy has ruled and the new generation of Iranians do not want to be controlled by them. What I worry about is the temptation to get engaged in a war to deflect public demands in Iran. Ahmedinijad might try his nukes on Israel if he sees things getting out of hand. Israel will be getting very nervous about the recent developments in the Middle East. I hope they do not do anything pre-emptive which can backfire on them. The world is entering a crisis phase for sure.

Posted by KPSingh01 | Report as abusive

Real problems need real solutions, what i like about American democracy is its beuty in promising positive change, making legislation to tackle people’s issues. Then they always remind themselves of the promises made to their people and work to deliver.
On the other hand the dictatorial regimes of Egypt, Tunisia, Algeria, Yemen etc are supported by US. Advocates of democracy have become biggest allies of dictators, this is height of hypocricy. street power is the only way to bring about the change and successful transition of power where it is impossible to transfer power peacefully. The Egyptian street protests are no different to 2008 lawyers movements that ousted President Musharraf in Pakistan.
One more favour that US must do is to cut off all aid to Pakistan and Egypt, that will act as a spur, cut dependence on foreign aid and push these countries to create sustainable economies, free of corruption and ensure good governance. Most importantly, US must stop supporting corrupt governments including that of President Zardari, either they put their act together or leave office and let honest people come in.
Bravo Egypt, your cause is just and your movement is great you have the support of everyone in the world. Push for change.

Posted by Umairpk | Report as abusive

Seinfeld fans will recall “Relationship George” and “Independent George”.

“If Relationship George walks through that door, he will kill Independent George!”

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SxuYdzs4S S8

Reuters provides the venue for another sitcom, because we have a Reasonable Umair and a Jingoistic Umair. The above post is by Reasonable Umair. Just when we begin to relax and start discussing amicably, Jingoistic Umair will walk through that door, kill Reasonable Umair and start another fight.

What’s the bet?

Regards,
Ganesh Prasad

Posted by prasadgc | Report as abusive

The article compares apples and oranges to use a cliche…but more importantly seriously under estimates the problems faced by pakistan.

Egyptian is an ethnic identity. Pakistan is political Islamic identity…Political Islam was what led to its birth…and political Islam has grown to what it is today in pakistan.

No point in repeating same old mythologies about Zia caused Islamization etc..

Mohd Ali Jinnah said Pakistan came into existence the day the first Indian converted to Islam..

Here is another Jinnah quote…please tell when Islamization started:

“It is my very ultimate wish that when I die, my conscience and my Allah may testify that, Jinnah never betrayed Islam.”

Posted by netizen | Report as abusive

@”Seinfeld fans will recall “Relationship George” and “Independent George”.” Posted by prasadgc

One of my favorite episodes, “the worlds collide theory” :)! If you have not seen the show “Curb your enthusiasm”, I suggest you rent the DVDs. The George character is continued & enacted by it’s creator Larry David.

As for our friend Umair, I think he’s an extremely emotional person & occasionally gets frustrated & angry with what’s going on in his country. That’s usually when “belligerent Umair” makes an appearance instead of the “reasonable Umair”.

Posted by Mortal1 | Report as abusive

I suppose I should have said “Belligerent Umair” instead of “Jingoistic Umair”. Thanks for the suggestion.

Regards,
Ganesh Prasad

Posted by prasadgc | Report as abusive

Mortal/Ganesh

I think if anyone states that Pakistan must be splintered and cut into pieces, that is enough to drive me angry. Though I agree one must keep cool and calm. As far as what is going on in Pakistan, we have learnt to live with it and will work to eliminate the problems. Nothing special is going on in Pakistan, it is normal as any other deveopling nation. All countries go through challenges, maybe Pakistan has more of its share of security challenges, but resilient as we are we will get through it.

Posted by Umairpk | Report as abusive

Ganesh
PS
Your remark regarding jingoism or belligerence, you can now imagine how rhetoric matters. It can drive very sane people into jingoism and belligerence. Tells how important it is to develop the trust otherwise it will lead to unneccessary fear mongering and creates an atmosphere of mistrust and anger. It may take a hundered years to create trust, but just a single moment or event for that trust to be breached.

Posted by Umairpk | Report as abusive

New estimates put Pakistan’s nuclear arsenal at more than 100

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/con tent/article/2011/01/30/AR2011013004136. html

“The Pakistanis have significantly accelerated production of uranium and plutonium for bombs and developed new weapons to deliver them. After years of approximate weapons parity, experts said, Pakistan has now edged ahead of India, its nuclear-armed rival.”

-This latest report is why I always argue with those who state that Pakistan should be splintered.

Posted by Umairpk | Report as abusive

Indians may talk about splitting up Pakistan, and Pakistanis may talk about Ghazwa-e-Hind. Both can make nationalistic blood boil, but we need to keep our senses.

Beyond a point, the number of nuclear weapons doesn’t matter. Whether we can blow each other up once, or a hundred times over, doesn’t make a big difference. We’re still dead, and it’s still a matter of unnecessary stupidity.

In the meantime, there are more mundane, yet more immediately dangerous things for Pakistan to worry about. As the saying goes, “It’s the economy, stupid.”

Regards,
Ganesh Prasad

Posted by prasadgc | Report as abusive

Umair has rightly and correctly praised the positives of US governance – one reason perhaps is that the people hold the administration responsible and insist they stick to their promises and agenda. The other aspect I respect and admire about the US, is that all said and done, it has a pretty good justice and legal framework in place, which functions efficiently.

Yet, without taking away anything from that, the US has time and again, proved that it is very short sighted as far as it’s foreign policy is concerned. One reason may be that by and large Americans are insulated from the world beyond their borders and only become aware of problems when they really impact their lives. What is often termed as arrogance is actually just plain simple ignorance. US foreign policy generally has two alternatives to foreign crises. Either throw bombs and missiles or throw money at the problem. Both may provide a quick fix, but in the long term leave the genesis of the problem untouched or even create a different set of problems.

For years now anti Americanism is rampant in Egypt and Pakistan, just two examples, at the level of the man in the street, The US has simply ignored it and bypassed the people completely and tried to buy out governments – usually corrupt and incapable – and hope the infusion of money will buy goodwill. It seldom does. Bad governance, therefore is pushed under the carpet for short term gains. Then, when unpopular, inefficient or dictatorial governments are violently over thrown, the US is left holding the baby with mud on its face and is back at square one.

It is beyond belief that in all these years the US has learnt nothing about dealing with other people and realising the importance of earning their good will. That is more important and beneficial in the long term than all the missiles and money it keeps throwing around.

Posted by DaraIndia | Report as abusive

Umairpk: “This latest report is why I always argue with those who state that Pakistan should be splintered.”

Not long ago you Pakistanis used to say that Pakistan went nuclear because India did. Now what logic is being used to build 100 nukes and chest thump that you have more than what India has? Who else are you competing with?

As far splintering Pakistan, it is one individual opinion, based on the internal conditions in Pakistan. No one today can go in and splinter any country. International norms will not allow for that. What one says here remains just a statement. No one here has any influence or control over the events that are unfolding across the world. None of us are solving any problems. None of us are diplomats or government leaders in key positions. We are nameless, faceless, insignificant entities whose opinions hardy have impact on anyone. Therefore do not get charged up for the comments on this forum.

I wish there are more moderate Pakistanis who can write in these forums. Most of the time we encounter Rex Minors or Babags which gives a very different picture to us and our reaction stems from that.

Posted by KPSingh01 | Report as abusive

I agree with Dara. Americans are quite ignorant of the outside world. Watch their world news and you will understand in a shot what their global perspective is. They have become used to dominating the world for more than six decades. Only now they are seeing new players emerge and their clout diminishing. Economic strains are exposing the inadequacies that they have not paid attention to all these years. I see a lot of discussions here on how the Chinese and Indians are competitive in school and college levels.

America’s foreign policy is driven entirely by business interests. Businesses like to make profit with minimal constraints. Many venture out because they cannot meet the domestic stipulations. If foreign countries remain backward and law can be easily twisted, it would increase profitability for corporations. Outside of the US, not many talk of rights. A backward world is beneficial to the businesses. Hence they prefer dictators and civil wars. They act worried. But they make good money out of selling weapons and material. It is all coming back to bite them slowly.

They always create a problem to solve an existing one. That has led to the conditions we face today.

Having an enemy has really benefitted them. So long as the USSR existed, they could play the saviors of the world and were on top of the world. Once they killed off that enemy, they have fallen gradually. Now there is another enemy they are building up. But this one might blow up on their faces.

Posted by KPSingh01 | Report as abusive

KP I agree that business interests drive external policy. I would also like to add that actually most countries do the same thing – with one major difference. The US seems determined to look for easy pickings amongst the backward and unstable countries. Others generally take the long road of lower profits and stable local conditions.

While some prefer to use Pakistan as a comparison to the situation in Egypt, my own view is that it is more akin to Iran and the Shah. Similarly, I have no doubt, that sooner or later, the Saudi bubble will burst. While it will cause grave problems in the region and the world as a whole, for the US it will be much, much worse.

Posted by DaraIndia | Report as abusive

Dara/KPSingh
You guys are making a mistake regarding Americans and misjudging them. Pakistan has a long history of working with America, Pak-American relations are long standing which does not necessarily mean they have been the best. There has been strains in the past in that relationship. Coming to the point, the US is a super power we have to agree on that. While countries like India and Pakistan or even other countries, share long borders with others. US on the contrary is far across the Atlantic, far away from any potential enemy. Most importantly, the US has control over world oceans through its Naval fleet, by controlling the SLOC (Sea lines of communication) it gives them immense clout in world affair. A strong economy, a stable democracy, armed forces, geography many factors gives advantage to US. They have been generous with poor nations in providing aid etc. However, with Pakistan and maybe even Egypt and other countries US has often defined its relationship in short-term adhoc basis which resulted in policy errors and bring us to this point. I am not anti-American, US tries to uplift Pakistan’s civil government, assisiting the Military as well. With its diplomatic mission, social assistance programs, cultural and education exchange programs etc. But due to policy blunders, the general public does not see the good work and simply becomes anti-American when there is a small incident anywhere. Some of their policies have been a real disaster for both countries interests. End of the day whether its Iran, Pakistan, Egypt, Tunisia or Saudi Arabia even India, every country is unique with its own history. The Iran event in 1979 happened in a different time in history, today Egypt opposition movement does not have the leadership equal to Khomeini. Moreover, no mullahs are leading Egypt protests, it is ordinary people, women, children almost everyone. It is more like a people revolution, while Iran was a Mullah revolution (clergy and conservatives etc) taking over. The two are definitely different.

Posted by Umairpk | Report as abusive

PS
A word on the Saudi monarchy, the Saudi monarchy has been remarkably resilient in the past. They have been gradually pushing for reforms and freedoms, also have immense wealth. Mostly they use the wealth wisely, investing in long-term projects, providing better healthcare, education facilites for their population. They have been rapidly modernizing, etc. I do not think that Saudi Arabia will face anything like Egypt, at best they could face challenges but will ultimately overcome those.

Posted by Umairpk | Report as abusive

@”I think if anyone states that Pakistan must be splintered and cut into pieces, that is enough to drive me angry.” Posted by Umairpk

I think you are referring to KP’s comment about Pakistan splintering up. But even KP has stated several times that India can not & should not attempt at breaking Pakistan & if Pakistan splinters, it will be it’s own doing (which is what many believe). If Pakistan breaks up, it won’t be because of India or US but due to economic decline & subjugation of provinces and this threat is very real. Economic proeperity takes care of a lot of things & the same thing applies to Indian Kashmir as well. IMO, if the Kashmiris are given a taste of the economic prosperity experienced by the rest of indians, a lot of their gerievences with India will gradually disappear. So if Pakistan were to remain in it’s current form, your establishment will have to stop building nukes & start building your economy because your nukes will be useless against your own angry provinces.

Posted by Mortal1 | Report as abusive

@DaraIndia

As and american, I concur with your comments about US foreign policy. It’s pretty much indefensible! I can only hope that our policy makers & leaders learn from past mistakes & avoid making them in the future. As for the ignorance of americans in general, I agree on that as well, although, I see things changing for the better as more & more americans realize that there is a world beyond their country & that we are very much a part of it. The effective judicial framework is a big plus but it has a minor side effect in that it has made us an extremely litigious society.

Posted by Mortal1 | Report as abusive

I am watching the happenings in Egypt. Looks like their Islamic brotherhood does not want to come to power. They just want to help from behind the scenes. El Baradei or Suleiman will be good leaders. And the people are not showing any religious fanaticism. They are shouting for freedom. Their soldiers are being friendly to them. I think we should not make the mistake of every revolution in the Islamic world as some kind of a fundamentalist take over. It happened in Iran long ago. But today’s Iran has a lot of youth who hate fundamentalists and theocracy. They might rebel against the theocratic rulers.

Internet and twitter have made a huge influence across the world. In China, one official’s son had to be sentenced to jail for running his car over a pedestrian. In the past no one could do anything to children of high officials. Today they have the internet and through youtube they ran a campaign that basically forced the system to play just and the boy is in jail.

Hosni Mubarak is 82 years old. I don’t know why he is trying to cling on to power. It is time for him to prepare for his coffin.

I hope that the developments in Tunisia and Egypt have a positive influence on Pakistani youth and hope that they stand up and charge at the fundamentalists. That will do a lot of good to the region.

Posted by KPSingh01 | Report as abusive

Umnair,

The US has one Achilles heel, which is Israel. Developments in the Middle East can place Israel in a tight corner and the US is worried about that. I am yet to understand why the US is protecting Israel against all odds. I know there is a Jewish lobby that is influential in the US foreign policy. The worry that US has about the recent revolts in Egypt and Tunisia are Israel centric. I am concerned that the US might do something pre-emptively to counter anything that might jeopardize Israel’s security. The US always creates a problem to solve an existing one. I hope they do not over react and screw things up for everyone. Apprehensive decisions can be disastrous. A lot is at stake. For three decades Hosni Mubarak has helped avoid hostilities against Israel. Losing him is a big issue for the US, even though they pay a lip service to people’s power etc. They are praying that the next set of Egyptian rulers will continue with Mubarak’s policies. If they see any signs of that not happening, either the US or Israel or both might escalate counter plans. I am watching the developments with eagerness.

Posted by KPSingh01 | Report as abusive

@Umair
Well said, your post Jan 31.
We are witnessing an Egyption ´soft revolution and with this the second ally of the USA against terrorism is about to go down the Nile. The first one from Tunisia is already the guest of Saudi family. Mubarak is the airforce man, a fool who is trying to frighten the civilians with F16′s.
Since the USA paid for the orchestra they would like to select the melody but it is not working. There is some parallel for Pakistan, your civilian Govt. should listen to the ordinary workers, peasants and intellectuals and not waste their time in academic discussions on secular philosophies, it is food and dignity, what the people want in the end. Failing this, the so called Islamic organised and established political force is going to end up in Egypt as well as in Pakistan as the ruling powers. Pakistan Govt. must learn to share power with all political forces and not continue the ritual of current party system and parliamentry election, which at the end is going to give the country the Sharif Bros or Zardari lot. Pakistan military were somehow not able to come up with this idea during their times nor could the ex airforce officer Mubarak, who went for one party political system and deployed massive security apparatus to protect the Govt. The biggest looser is going to be Israel, who which would definitely< not a partner to have a blockade of Gaza! In case the new Govt. is unfriendly, Israel would be obliged to spend billions for their defence.

Rex Minor

Posted by fibs | Report as abusive

Comparison of Egypt and Pakistan inevitably stop at recent history.
I hope that Egyptians hold sacred their national pride as an ancient country, attracting admiration for its remarkable achitecture such as the pyrimads, and for developing methods to use water to benefit the people and the land. Those achievement occurred thousands of years before Islam was born as a religion.

I hope Pakistanis similarly find their pride in their historic roots which date back long before Pakistan gets registered as a country at the United Nations. UN does not define country. Just because the UN has not recognized a people as a “country” does not mean a thing about what those people might, and should be proud of in their ancient heritage.

Posted by Janeallen | Report as abusive

Ganesh Prasad:
If the gospel according to Seinfeld had been banned in the world, there would not have been an economic meltdown in 2008, nor Enron, or the fixing of the books by the Lehman Brothers.

Instead, the world will be a better place, without people who should be in jail(as in Seinfeld’s last episode, featuring, Jerry S, Elaine, George and the whole bunch locked up in jail). Instead, the show of Seinfeld essentially rationalizes double-standards, whitewashes selfishness, promotes the use of intelligence to cheat without getting caught. It replaces the age old wisdom that intelligence should be used to do good, not to cheat, take advantage, lie and not be discovered.
Seinfeld promotes a modern, sophisticated of corruption that is disguised as friendship, comaraderie and smartness to be proud of.

There isn’t such a law of neuroscience that the neurons in the area of the brain responsible for emotions and higher rational thinking cannot be firing at the same time and be co-ordinated to seek solutions. There isn’t such a limitation in the human brain that the pre-frontal cortex and higher brain capacity cannot aspire to remaining rational, logic, while allowing oneself to express anger. Only petty excuses, put out with funny, laughable disguises by Seinfeld and its followers.

Only semi-intelligent folk like seinfeld and yourself who rationalize childishness, bigotry and refuse to grow up, while pretending it’s part of the rule of nature.
You, as a disciple of Seinfeld, had been corrupted.
I hope you will refrain from government policies– for sake of the world’s well being and justice and peace.

Posted by CommonSensLogic | Report as abusive

CommonSensLogic:
I agree with you.
Madoff, Lehman’s & Goldman’s top executives all love Seinfeld. The show robbed them of their sense of guilt over unethical practices.
AND, worst, they are so blinded by their new found self-righteousness based on seinfeldism that they believe there is not difference between Seifeld, the real person making millions and millions, and their making billions.
AND, even when they are in jail, they think of themselves no different than Seifeld being in jail in the last farewell episodes. The humor blinded their conscience. That’s why that show became so populart — it panders to a base quality in every person, ie., to be free of guilt even when caught red handed, and then get away scotch free in their own mind, even in jail. They all want to be the billionare who should be in jail but never got caught. The Seinfeld culture promotes a whole generation of con artists, scammers who, in typical Seinfeld humor, feels no guilt about crimes that put millions out on the street, deprives tens and hundreds of millions of children of necessary funding for a decent education, and many other societal woes.
And why do they not see it— because they enjoy joking and gloating about the woes of others. Empathy is anesthetized from their brain. Ethical standard is muddled. Unfairness is not recognized becuase it is funny! And when it causes bloodshed because common folks don’t understand why they can’t make ends meet– the Seinfeld fans continue to joke and wash their hands off their share of responsibility.

Food prices were one of the items that ruthless Wall Street Seinfeldism followers bet on, in derivatives market. To make the most money, they must manipulate the food prices to bubble. Then, as they see riots started over food prices, they continue to joke and BET, just like Ganesh Prasad proposes here, as if nobody will find out about the share of guilt by the likes like him.

Listen: the street rioters may not understand the link between betting on food prices, and coldly betting on whether people driven crazy by the lack of food to violence. We, sane and rational people, who refuse the temptation to use intelligence to damage the world and make joke of it— we can tell.

What the rioters should put on trial, if the law allows, are the betting of food prices, by all international “investors” on the food prices. These investors in turn did everything they could to bust the food prices so they reap the money while poor people starve, and governments collapse. And they think nobody can do the math and follow the statistics? They are wrong. Books are coming out. Talk shows are breaking down the disguise of complicated mathetical terms so that even ordinary people understand the truth behind these funny jokes, and how sick these funny jokes really are.

Posted by jo5319 | Report as abusive

jo5319:
What you are saying is:

Ganesh Prasad loves betting so much that
he is essentially betting on whether hundreds of thousands or tens of millions people starve,
whether dozens, thousands or millions are killed by a revolt turned violent, and call such numbness high class intelligent entertainment.
Not that long ago, such numbness only belonged to cold blooded mass killers. Now, it is gloated and joked about by seinfeldism followers. The stupid followers all end up in jail. The ultra smart one stay out of jail and continues to plot to take advantage of recession, poverty, war, and continue to gloat about how strong they are compared to those victims who suffer emotional breakdowns. Let me warn you. Madoff was one of you, however vehemently you might deny it. Madoff scoffed at the news that some of his victims committed suicide. What has followed since then? His son committed suicide. And the money hidden in his grandchildren’s, best friends’ accounts will all be gone, along with their sanity and reputation.
Now, let me ask you, do you still think it is smart and trendy to be a Seinfeld fan? Is it just a fetish over a comedy show, or did it contribute to unraveling previous democratic systems, starting with the economy.

Posted by CommonSensLogic | Report as abusive

Mortal1:

Joking about the world colliding is sick.
Not funny.

America is unlikely to regain the confidence of investors ever; and many honest, hardworking, law-abiding folks who had been destroyed by attitudes that guide cold unethical business methods, will likely never recover.

Someday, karma will catch up with likes like you and Ganesh Prasad.

Posted by Janeallen | Report as abusive

WTF!! this place has suddenly turned into a seinfeld bashing forum!

@”Joking about the world colliding is sick. Not funny. Someday, karma will catch up with likes like you and Ganesh Prasad.”

Easy there! we’re just referring to an episode of seinfeld & not in the literal sense. You need to watch it to know what I was talkin about.

@”America is unlikely to regain the confidence of investors ever; and many honest, hardworking, law-abiding folks who had been destroyed by attitudes that guide cold unethical business methods, will likely never recover.”

ya ya ya, heard that one before, yawn!

Posted by Mortal1 | Report as abusive

I don’t think “commonsenselogic” and “jo5319″ are serious with their comments.

All shows in Seinfeld’s genre reflect what’s happening in everyday American life not the other way round.

Posted by doctorjay317 | Report as abusive

After recent global events, I think chances of a revolution in Pakistan are very high, although I’m afraid, it could very well be a theocratic revolution like the one in Iran.

Posted by Mortal1 | Report as abusive

Umair,

We are making similar points.

I agree that the Americans have been generous and are generous. In fact the average American is generous to a fault. My reference is to their administration. The point that I am trying to make is that its generosity is often misplaced and unwise. It often bypasses the people and their sentiments.

I have no doubts about its super power stature. In fact I find it hilarious that some people here talk about it being a spent force and await its imminent downfall. Wouldn’t hold my breadth waiting for it to happen.

As regards the reference to Iran, I still feel it is relevant. The players involved, whether clergy or the man in the street or lawyers or professionals does not matter. As far as I know, Egypt is the second largest recipient of American aid after Israel. Yet, there is a hint of anti Americanism in the Egyptian protest. My point is that the US has mastered the art of backing the wrong horse – often backing regimes against their own people. That has often created innumerable problems for them.

There may be no Khomeini or cleric heading the revolt, but there is Mohamed ElBaradei taking centre stage and becoming a rallying figure.

The Saudi royalty may be resilient, it has to be to have survived as long as it has. But it appears to be out of synch with its population. Even now I have heard of differing voices on Egypt. While the man in the street is reported to be sympathising with the protesters the monarchy is reportedly running down the protests as irrelevant. I still feel that events will come to a head there.

Posted by DaraIndia | Report as abusive

Mortal,

“The effective judicial framework is a big plus but it has a minor side effect in that it has made us an extremely litigious society.”

I wonder how much the effectiveness of the system has contributed towards a litigious society. In India we have perhaps the most ponderous, creaky and leaking system yet people run to the courts at a drop of a hat. Moreover, the biggest litigant is perhaps the government itself.

What I would really like to see in India is that affairs of government and investigations be made totally open to the public, as happens in the US. I cannot ever imagine the Prime Minister or anyone in government being hauled up by a committee and the proceedings of parliamentary and public committees and commissions being broadcast live on TV. That is a sure sign that the people are actually empowered and informed. In the US, every committee proceeding is open to all and often aired live.

Posted by DaraIndia | Report as abusive

A green revolution on the whole is taking place in Egypt. Perhaps what has gone without notice is that Egyptian army is mostly made up of conscripts, therefore following the normal rules of engagement, the American supplied tanks which have come out on the streets do not carry any equipment. Egyptian leaders of the revolution are awre of this!

Umair, please note that Egyption citizens are the softest of all arabs and are no longer prepared to accept the 30 years of authoritarian rule. Most of the judiciary is in the crowd. Pakistan judiciary( mainly lawyers) came out for the first time against the military rule under the Indian born Parwez!

Pakistan needs an inclusive Govt. made up of all parties replacing the out of date parliamentry elections, which in essence is a farce, the revolving door for use by the Bhutto and Sharif bros. The possibility of Muslim Brotherhood taking over the Govt. in Egypt is very real and so is the possibility of Pakistan Islamic parties coming in power sooner than any one imagines.

Rex Minor

Posted by pakistan | Report as abusive

Pakistan”Pakistan judiciary( mainly lawyers) came out for the first time against the military rule under the Indian born Parwez!”

I don’t know if you are aware, your sensitiveness towards India does expose itself. I’d like to know the relevance of Musharraf’s Indian origin here. It appears suddenly out of the blues. Are you suggesting that the lawyers protested against Musharraf because he was Indian born? Or are you indirectly indicating that Musharraf was not liked because he was of Indian origin? Just curious. If you are sensitive about it, let me tell you that Mr. Jinnah was also of Indian origin, along with Pakistan’s father of Islamic bomb AQ Khan. So if Pakistan goes down the drain, you guys can probably take the route f blaming Muslims of Indian origin as being the reason for it. You have already declared Rehmat as a Hindu polluted Muslim. I am just connecting the dots.

Posted by KPSingh01 | Report as abusive

@Mortal1
“I’m afraid, it could very well be a theocratic revolution like the one in Iran.”

-

This should be of more concern to the USA/West than to India. For Islamist Jihadis, Indians are peanuts. Their eyes are on the global jihad, bigger prize the “Great Satan”..

Rich Anglophone Pak Elite (RAPE) and “secular” Pak army generals have colluded with the West, funded by the west have tried their best to undermine India for 63 years..

PLEASE TELL how the Islamist take over will make matters worse for India. “Secular” “liberal” paks done the following for 63 years against India aided by the west.

1) Printing and flooding fake Indian currency

2) Financing, training insurgent groups inside India

3) Sponsoring terrorism in Indian trains, buses, temples, bazzars

4)Launching wars

5)Heavy media propaganda lies about India/ Indian muslims

6)Threatening and proclaiming they will use nuclear weapons first ( i.e clarifying the idea of nuclear weapon backed terror strategy)…

How can the Islamists can improve on this…just curious.. .I will say the opposite…Islamist take over will bring an end (once for all) to the charade of “liberal” paks colluding with the West to undermine India.

Posted by netizen | Report as abusive

Rex:”please note that Egyption citizens are the softest of all arabs and are no longer prepared to accept the 30 years of authoritarian rule. Most of the judiciary is in the crowd. Pakistan judiciary( mainly lawyers) came out for the first time against the military rule under the Indian born Parwez!”

-It is remarkable what is happening in Egypt, ordinary people have stood up and taken over the street. I salute their courage to stand up for their freedoms and rights, and the crowds lack leadership they are looking upon El Baradei and TV persons for leaderships. Decades of repression left no opposition leaders. Those people are on their own in the streets. IN Pakistan too street protests ousted President musharraf and lawyers movement was able to restore the independent minded supreme court Justice deposed by Musharraf. One thing clear in Egypt is the unity of their masses. I only wish and hope one day Pakistanis rise up for their rights, shake the foundations of our corrupt systems, unite to fight for their rights.
Most alarming, the people in street are angry towards Israel and President Mubarak’s support to Israel over the years. It is evident post Mubarak Egypt will be different.
Hopefully, Egypt can pull themselves together through this with minimum damage and recover quickly.

Posted by Umairpk | Report as abusive

Mortal/Netizen
Firstly, no possibility of Iran style revolution in Pakistan. Secondly, netizen, your long list of greviences against Pakistan Army, you would be stupid to assume it is one sided affair. India has been similarly hostile to Pakistan, in return among all its smaller neighbour it appears only Pakistan is capable of challenging India. That is the whole truth, do not tell half stories.

Posted by Umairpk | Report as abusive

@”Pakistan judiciary( mainly lawyers) came out for the first time against the military rule under the Indian born Parwez!” Posted by pakistan

Your love for Pashtuns & hatered for Muhajirs has been evident for quite some time now. It’s exacly due to the racism & bigotry of people like you that Karachi is burning in a cilvil war today.

@netizen: My fear of islamists taking over in Pakistan, is more of general in nature at this time & not India or US/west specific.

Posted by Mortal1 | Report as abusive

Well, the articles assessment of Egypt and Pakistan Armies and the government being friendly with America and the population of Pakistan is averse to Americans and army to the Politicians.

I, would not differ with the author except that his line of thing omitted to into consideration the America with Israel cancer in its body. With the Israel cancer, America will have the same relationship with all Muslim countries like it or not only Pakistan.
Without Israeli cancer, American relationship would have been the most cordial without any match.

How can you have better relationship America being the best friend and most trusted ally of terrorist country the ministers of that country being genocide criminals the foreign Minister being a veteran terrorist leader and the Prime Minister being a indicted top class master assassin. in a case committed by Mossad in Dubai under the leadership of the Israel.

Take Egypt’s case we all know that military dictatorship is bad but the parliamentary dictatorship is the worst and repulsive. Hosni Mubarak as the Parliamentary ruled Egypt dictator and we see the on going movement, and are hearing what he did to the population instead he had been serving Israel’s cause instead of Egyptians including facilitating the genocide in Gaza strip.

My friends those who know what a country Israel is would surely know that the population of Israel is the children of the NAZI raped womenfolk’s illegitimate children can the PM deny with DNA prove that they are not the illegitimate children of the great leader ADOLF HITLER’s force the Nazi’s Children

Yes, Pakistan Army does not approve politicians because American government brought in the army to power from time to time for its own use and shunted out when the work was done like a toilet paper. Pakistan Army got use to the civil power. Now, no use talking as when ever it will get opportunity it will grab the power. it is like a tiger getting use to human blood and becoming man eater. All these have the blessing of America including formation of Al-Queda and Taliban. I am sure the author will not dare contest with well establish facts.

Now let us see the contribution of American government to Egypt. America calls Egypt its closest friend after Israel. Why because Egypt under Mubarak was paid in billion by America to serve the cause of Israel as a paid servant. recently Egypt facilitated the genocide committal by Israel of Gaza the trail of the criminals were stopped by America. Mubarak did serve so well the Netanyahu accused the US President as betrayer. He wanted Us to retrieve of Mubarak and reestablishing him for him to serve In the interest of Israel without fail.

Now Israel is in panic of Mid-East Muslim after the on going movement to oust the President Mubarak. Hope the rest let remain corked bottle. The double standard work of American has been cancerous and stinking as its stinking hateful country. It is recommended US should surgically operate to get ride of the cancer terrorist genocide committal filthy incest practicing nation.

Posted by KINGFISHER | Report as abusive

Dara,

As the saying goes “justice delayed is justice denied” & one of the most frustrating aspects of the Indian judicial system is the lenghth of time invloved in completion of the process. Here, if I file a civil suit, I can be rest assured that I’ll be done with it within a year (usually within 6 months) but in India, I’m aware of civil cases, which have been going on for decades with no end in sight.

Posted by Mortal1 | Report as abusive

KINGFISHER: “My friends those who know what a country Israel is would surely know that the population of Israel is the children of the NAZI raped womenfolk’s illegitimate children can the PM deny with DNA prove that they are not the illegitimate children of the great leader ADOLF HITLER’s force the Nazi’s Children”

I think you need to tone down your voice. Your statement above is quite discriminatory. In other forums postings with such language venting hatred will be deleted. Here in Reuters they tend to watch the fun when people slip from one degenerative level down to the next. Jews are as human as anyone else. You need to understand their case by being in their shoes. Their nation got created in 1946-47 (I might be off a bit here).

There are a lot of similarities between Pakistan and Israel. Both were created in the name of religion (one being a minority surrounded or adjacent to a majority belonging to another religion). Both suffer from existential threat paranoia. In the case of Israel, this threat has been genuine. Arabs and Muslims have sworn to exterminate them. In the case of Pakistan, non-Muslims have not taken it as a life mission to exterminate Muslims. Both have nukes and modern militaries. Both are close allies of the US. Based on the similarities, you must be able to understand the perspective of Israelite citizens.

If you are justified in calling them as illegitimate children of Nazi rape victims, have you ever thought about people of your nation being descendants of similar victims of the past when Turks and Afghans invaded the region that became Pakistan, looted, plundered and raped women as a treat for taking part? A lot of atrocities have been perpetrated by almost all societies.

If the Arabs and Muslim communities had not been this hostile towards Israel, may be they might have been this hard on Palestine citizens and other Israeli Arabs. Though Israel follows a parliamentary democracy, it is basically a military state with all citizens required to take up military training and service. They exist on a constant state of alert at all times as though they are at war. Pakistan is a military ruled state with a namesake democracy. Compared to Israel, Pakistan has been in a much better neighborhood. Unlike Israel, Pakistan has been the trouble maker in the region.

With so many similarities between your country and Israel, your venom against them is indirectly being shown at your own people.

Posted by KPSingh01 | Report as abusive

another jew bashing rex minor clone on the lose!

Posted by Mortal1 | Report as abusive

“I think you need to tone down your voice. Your statement above is quite discriminatory. In other forums postings with such language venting hatred will be deleted……..”

KP, it’s futile trying to reason with someone who has such a high level of hate, venom & frustration bottled up inside. And the funniest part is, he could very well be living in the US/west and working in a jewish owned company.

Posted by Mortal1 | Report as abusive

@Kingfisher
well said, you are probably aware that this blog is infected with Indian citizens who for their own personal grievences, have different reading of the world. They would label you first as a Pakistani, then an anti-semit, not realising that you are talking about Israel and its policies and not about jews. They most probably do not know that Arabs are also semit and cousins of Jewish people. They are also not aware that in no time in history jews were mistreated at the hands of muslims, neither in Persia nor in Spain. That anti-semit roots are in Europe, not in the Arabian desert. Please do not put them under stress, they regard NY times and Washington post articles coming from the scriptures.

The USA has been the most popular country among almost two billion muslims, but its unqualified support for Israel foreign policy over several decades it stands today as the most unpopular country among the muslims. According to Jimmy carter no one in the USA can now even get elected for the senate or Congress if he or she objects to Israel’s policies towards palestinians! The USA very much needs to clear the 5th columnists within its own borders, before becoming the great free Nation and a beacon of hope as it used to be! Mr Obama zig zag statements on Egypt shows the administration dilemma. On one hand they have 82 years old man who served them well and supported Gaza blockade with Israel, and on the other side of the scale the Egyptian youth who want freedom of expression, dignity and jobs in their land without being tortured by the Mubarak machinery.
The revolution we are witnessing among Arabs today is an organic one at grass roots, the working class proleterians and intellectuals, students and Professors, lawyers and judges, who do not have a single leader to control and guide them. This is first in the history of today’s world. People simply want freedom, dignity and work to feed their families.

No one knows the stregnth of evil forces, the old pharaoh seems to have dug in and is bent upon dying in Egypt, his own words, the military is putting on a show with tanks and armoured cars( without any ammunition), but for how long. Are we going to see a green revolution at the end or a red one? This is the question of the day. Pakistan military and civilian leaders could learn a lot from this event. In my views Our Indian friends should support this movement and drop their personal grievences at this juncture. 2011 is the year for oppressed people and not for the oppressor.

Rex Minor

understand that are not even

Posted by pakistan | Report as abusive

Rex Minor:
Obama can be re-elected according to his current approval rating; and Obama disagrees with Israeli policies often.

Sarkozy disagrees with Israeli policies. If he is not re-elected, it’s more likely due to the students’ discontent, and economic situation. Little else matters.

Posted by Janeallen | Report as abusive

@KP
Do not try to connect dots, just ask the question and I shall explain. This is what I learned in my childhood, not to argue but explain!
I cannot but ignore minor details in my analysis, such as place of birth. When after half a century Pakistan still allows people who claim to be muslims and born outside Pakistan to become bona fide candidates for the position of a President, then they should not blame the guy for his disgraceful and deceitful performance. To go against the law is considered a criminal act but to go against the Judiciary of a country, is meant to destroy the very structure of the State. Pakistani people did not realise the gravity of his crime and in my view he should have faced a trial and not be alloweed to go unpunished. Do you believe that the USA, whuich relies heavily on immigrants, should allow a foreign born American for the President position. I have no other sinister imaginations about the guy or his Indian birth, he could have been born in Gulf states, or Africa.

@Umair

The old Pharaoh who together with Israel imposed a blockade has dug in and refusing to take the Turkish Prime Minister’s advice to listen to the people. He could use the clever trick of Musharaf and leave the country and then later declare his intention to return to
Egypt and take part in the election?

Let us recall here that it was Turkey which tried to break the Gaza blockade with ts Freedom ship and lost several lives in the International waters.

Rex Minor

Posted by pakistan | Report as abusive

Mortal1:
Seems like you never realized that many people watch Seinfeld because they enjoy bashing Seinfeld-lovers for loving such a stupid show! Stupid Seinfeld-lovers end up in jail like Madoff, just like Seinfeld, Elaine, George, all ended up in jail in the last episodes.

And you think those comments were from people who don’t watch Seinfeld! Ho Ho HO!

Posted by jo5319 | Report as abusive

@janeallen

Many decent people in the world disagree with Israel’s politics, but the guys you have mentioned are not the one who disagree.

Mr Obama is the first American who went before the Jewish lobby before becoming the President that Jerusalem should not be divided, the slogan of Israel. He also agreed to appoint Hillary Clinton as the secretary of Stae at the behest of Jewish lobby, before he was elected as the President of the USA.

Mr Sarkozy is of jewish origin and he along with many other European friends of Israel, do not support the foreign policy of Israel. We all know that this policy is to the detriment of Israel citizens. The Israeli govt. could not care less nor do several USA administrations who have lost their standing in the musliom world. Perhaps another Moses is needed, the former Moses would most probably refuse to return either. Like Opera once said about Obama, before he became the President, IS HE THE ONE? Perhaps he is the second Moses having been born as a muslim and raised in the christian house. He has still two years to go as a lame duck President!

Based on his todate performance in my view he is unlikely to return to his white house. If it was not the multiple errors of Hillary Clinton during the election, she could have been the President of the USA.
Mr Sarkozy has not delivered what he promised and his contempt for students and immigrants also did not help him with the rightest. French farmers, and pensioners are not going to fall for his hungarian trick again.

Rex Minor

Posted by pakistan | Report as abusive

Pakistan,

Since you try to project a fair face, let me ask you whether you can say any good things about Jews/Israel and India.

I have nothing personal against Jews or any other community. Everyone has the same issues and concerns. One thing you have to realize is that Muslims overall seem to have issues with everyone else – Jews, Hindus, Sikhs, Christians and so on at different parts of the world. And in general Muslims use violence as a means to assert their place in any society. There is a lot of animosity in this world which is made up of 4.5 billion non-Muslims, towards Muslims. This is unnecessary and unfortunate. I wish people of different beliefs understood others, their perspectives and learned to adjust and live with them instead of seeking exclusive privileges. Would you care to comment on this observation?

Posted by KPSingh01 | Report as abusive

Rex:
“The old Pharaoh who together with Israel imposed a blockade has dug in and refusing to take the Turkish Prime Minister’s advice to listen to the people. He could use the clever trick of Musharaf and leave the country and then later declare his intention to return to
Egypt and take part in the election?

Let us recall here that it was Turkey which tried to break the Gaza blockade with ts Freedom ship and lost several lives in the International waters.”

-Yes, sad when Egypt is the leader of Arab world and should have taken the lead to express solidarity, Hosni Mubarak’s Egypt called for Gaza’s blockade. One woman in the crowds Cairo shouted “Hosni Mubarak must go, he has relations with Israel which is an enemy”. I think Israel has been shaken, they are in for some tough time. Egypt will finally change, its people will become masters of their destiny. As an Air Force commander I don;t expect Hosni Mubarak to give in easily, we are heading for Friday when after prayers the protesters will besiege the Presidential palace. Mubarak is looking to buy a few months time and honorable exit, I dont think the people can put off 30 years of anger which has suddenly erupted. My best to the Egypt people.

Posted by Umairpk | Report as abusive

Rex:”2011 is the year for oppressed people and not for the oppressor.”

-Well said, very well said, Tunisians liberated themselves from the tyranny of a dictatorial rule of 23 years. A three decades old regime has been shaken in Egypt, Jordan is feeling the jolts, Saudi Arabia will be rprompted to give more freedom and talk is that this revolution can reach as far as Pakistan. Let us hope no one hijack this movement of oppressed people seeking liberation and their rights. All freedom loving people stand behind them in their support. And I can tell you the oppressors and their patrons are shaking and stunned still in shock. As some of popular banners read “Game over”.

Posted by Umairpk | Report as abusive

Rex Minor:
I know Sarkozy is Jewish, and that Sarkozy and Obama may not have the exact same viewpoint as you do, or the Palestinians’, nor the Israelis’.

They do, both of them, however, unapologetically called the settlements illegal, and firmly opposes
Now, they won’t send troops to stop the construction, but that’s a degree of entanglement that should not be expected from a country situated on a different continent and has not been directly attacked in America.

Sarkozy and Obama are both pragmatists. They have their own ideals. They respond to the electorate.

Nobody who votes in America has to tell another soul whom he or she had voted for, unless one votes by mail. (When one votes by mail, one has to sign on the enveloped and the computer code can be more easily traced, but nobody is supposed to trace it for retaliation. IF anybody discovers evidence that any voter is retaliated against for whom he or she votes for, that would be a blockbuster scandal in America.)

What does happen, and I agree with you in part, is that lobbyist groups, and very efficient ones, with well funded coffers, in disgracing candidates who are considered anti-semite. And, increasingly, Americans recognize that some labelled anti-semites are not truly anti-semites. An less controversial example is Henry Kissinger, who is himself Jewish. Much more controversial example may be Helen Thomas, whom I can get censored on this site, just for mentioning her name! Of course, many realize that. That’s how things can backfire, when sloppy comments get labelled anti-semite, when in fact they apparently had not been anti-semite in nature.

I believe in the American democratic system in this respect. If you believe that not sufficient rhetoric has been made, it’s probably not been made eloquently enough, or effective enough. Go ahead, blog more and motivate fellow voters, if you are eligible to vote.

Not that long ago, many believe that funding controls everything. That’s been proven quite wrong in California; otherwise, Meg Whitman would have beaten J. Brown for governorship.

The fact that running against an effective and efficient lobbyist’s stance requires more effort, greater care in the rhetoric, and superb persuasion skill, does not mean it is impossible. The worst approach to take is to believe that it is impossible, so much that one does not even try. Refusal to try is the only sure strategy to ensure what you don’t want, will certainly happen. Worst of all, that’s when people resort to violence or extreme means rather than verbal discourse.

I’m an idealist in this area. If you deeply believe in the fairness, and wisdom of your cause, then arguing fullest to the end, as long as you have the optimum or necessary support in your private life to pursue it till the end, your righteousness will come through in the end. Alternatively, some discovery of minor flaws in your argument will only help refine your stance more, and help you become more convincing.

Posted by Janeallen | Report as abusive

umair “in return among all its smaller neighbour it appears only Pakistan is capable of challenging India. That is the whole truth, do not tell half stories.”

This is funny…
Challenging India Militarily…
Challenging India by surrendering 90000 pakistani soldiers by surrendering…Or Challenging India by asking America’s help everytime there is a conflict with India(Kargil)…

Challenging India on Economic Front..
I really dont have much points on it.
Really don’t even think about it..

Posted by TnC | Report as abusive

@janeallen
Are you telling us that Sarkozy and Obama are the first to discover and speak out about the illegality of sttlements? We have a united resolution on this several decades ago and successive USA adminstrations and French Presidents have unequivacly supported the UN resolution.

Henry Kissinger is the worst example you have quoted, he is the first who has demanded of Palestinians to recognise Israel as a “jewish state” ad the first American retired secretary of state who declared that ‘We’ i.e. the USA should not have accepted the creation of Pakistan. He is the advisor to Obama on foreign policy and his former pupils are still running his policy in the state dept. to manage crisis, without solving them.There are those who are of the opinion that he should be tried as a war criminal?

But you are probably aware that the USA is the only western country which does not recognise the UNO criminal court?

I am glad to know that you are an idealist, but sometimes it is good to know the reality. America is a great country with wonderful people, decent and generous, but it has also a powerful military and a number of contridictions. Kentucky Bourbon is produced in the country where prohibition is in place. In California people went to the pole and elected a Governor, who was known to molest women. For two terms a President was elected by the system to shake the foundations of the republic, to the extent of torturing people in the name of National security. Mr Obama first task was to announce immunity for those who were involved in torturing people under George W. He promised change but continued to went further than George W in following militaristic foreign policies. You are an idealist and probably do not know how strong your military apparatus within USA is? Listen carefully to the praise of the President for the military and the presence of military in the state of union speach. No different than the praise of Roman Senators in ancient Rome.
Mr Macchrystal was an accident, the republicans and the democrats kowtow the line of military. When did the USA administration last have a secretary of defence from the democratic party?

This is not new for students of history! Roman empire went down when its army was the best, Mubarak is going down whose army is the largest and strongest among the Arab armies.

The USA has a systemic problem and has a need for competent people not old and sick who refuse to retire, like the Mubarak of Egypt!

Bon Courage!

Rex Minor

Posted by pakistan | Report as abusive

PS
orry for errors! We have a United Nations resolution on Illegal settlements!

Posted by pakistan | Report as abusive

Challenging India is a good idea if it’s constructive and based on improving social indexes. The kind of challenge Pakistan engages in is of a schoolyard type and quite juvenile. A recent analysis of the reasons for Pakistan’s rapid increase in its nuclear arsenal comes to the conclusion that it is for psychological rather than strategic reasons.

http://bit.ly/eYdZyP

And this at a time of grave economic crisis. Do they think anyone is actually impressed? This is like college boys speeding on motorcycles and doing stupidly dangerous stunts in front of girls thinking they look like heroes, while the girls probably think they’re a bunch of jerks.

All in all, a rather silly way to run a country.

Regards,
Ganesh Prasad

Posted by prasadgc | Report as abusive

Ganesh: “All in all, a rather silly way to run a country.”

Everything stems from a basic human instinct – ego and contempt. To understand why Pakistan is obsessed with being equal to India and keep challenging it, one has to go back to its formation. When something is created out of a flimsy argument, justification for it gets desperate. Those who are on the losing side of an argument get more vocal if you notice. Sometimes they can get violent and become more intimidating as well. And if they get what they want using the flimsy logic, there is always the sense of guilt that they got it by unjust means. In addition, there is a fear that the other side might come back with more valid justification to expose the unfair method by which the argument was won. These two feelings create a perpetual agony in the group that wins an altercation for a flimsy reason by unfair means. And they fill their ego with false justification – they are better than the other party, smarter, superior and so on. Once in a while they try to demonstrate that attitude by charging or throwing a brick. This phobia never ends. So they keep on building barricades around themselves. Pakistan’s nuclear obsession stems from a superiority complex. They have to see themselves above Hindus. They are unable to accept the reality that India has progressed and is getting positive recognition for its own efforts. They are still in the same state when they left their brethren. For not having anything else to stand tall, they have gone to relying on nuclear material build up. Somehow they think the world will fear them and respect them from that angle. These are signs of immaturity arising from emotional nature of its people. If they build a tower way too tall without paying attention to the foundation, that tower can fall on themselves. But they have to learn that from their own experience.

Posted by KPSingh01 | Report as abusive

Rex Minor:
Of course those are not what I mean. You know that.
And it appears that you love to distort the patent meaning of others who respect you enough to engage in a civil discourse with you.

Let me tell you. That attitude of yours, condescending without logic, reason behind such attitude is why voters do not get convinced by you. That’s my sincere advice for you.

Sincerely.

Posted by Janeallen | Report as abusive

As an observer,
I would suggest that Rex Minor take a class on the art of persuasion.
The way you argument, jumping for facts to facts capriciously, and clearing showing your lack of comprehension of Janeallen’s point ( either that, or you are not reading and comprehension, or worse, you deliberately try to distort other’s point of view with blatant disrespect).

You would alienate 100 out of 100 readers or listeners in the United States with your style of writing, ie., 100% failure, and 0% of success in persuasion.

If you don’t get it, all the more reason you need to take classes on your skill. Start with comprenhension skills

Posted by jo5319 | Report as abusive

Janeallen, jo5319:
Rex Minor is clueless.
His writing makes many many false and self-contradictory asumptions, namely that Americans want to be proud that they call the settlements illegal. Americans don’t want to be entangled with the fighting between all sorts Middle Eastern groups that had been going for thousands of years, unless situation forces them to.

Americans’ complaints are there people in the Middle East keep fighting for thousands of years and keep dragging the world into it, for one unfair reason or another.

Against any country that helps terrorists that hurt the safety of Americans, America has the right do everything possible defend our citizens. That’s a universal truth.

Any other assumptions are based on abysmal ignorance.
American law does not even require any bystander to rescue a stranger who’s in peril for whatever reason, let alone somebody who is not an American citizen in a foreign country.

American’s top interest in foreign policy is to root out terrorists. All other arguments about what we should or should not do— will mostly become arguments with themselves, not a concern for America unless they are persuasive from the American perspective. That’s true for any country, any culture, any family

Rex Minor sounds very jealous of America’s wealth and power might — that’s the only point that comes through. The rest is illogical ranting like that of a mad man.

Posted by CommonSensLogic | Report as abusive

jo5319 to rex minor: “You would alienate 100 out of 100 readers or listeners in the United States with your style of writing, ie., 100% failure, and 0% of success in persuasion”

I would say, he would alienate 100 out of 100 non-muslims & moderate/tolerant/liberal muslims.

Posted by Mortal1 | Report as abusive

“2011 is the year for oppressed people and not for the oppressor”

Pak army must watch out. Balochis might rise after watching what is happening in the Arab world.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SD4qQCmLo io

Posted by KPSingh01 | Report as abusive

> American law does not even require any bystander to rescue a stranger who’s in peril for whatever reason

There’s of course Massachusetts’s “Good Samaritan Law” as featured on a certain TV sitcom, but the “S” word is taboo now, isn’t it?

Regards,
Ganesh Prasad

Posted by prasadgc | Report as abusive

I know Umair will hate this, but all roads seem to lead to Rawalpindi:

http://bit.ly/f0DBZK

Not Islamabad, not Lahore, not Karachi, but Pindi itself. Is the PA/ISI being framed, or did they just slip up/get lazy? At least they took care not to call from GHQ!

Regards,
Ganesh Prasad

Posted by prasadgc | Report as abusive

Ganesh: “Not Islamabad, not Lahore, not Karachi, but Pindi itself. Is the PA/ISI being framed, or did they just slip up/get lazy? At least they took care not to call from GHQ!”

Nothing will happen. Most countries have given up asking Pakistan to own up to the crimes committed abroad. Right now the juicy matter is about the American diplomat who is in Pakistan’s custody for killing two people. There will be some bargain deal done to exchange the American for some goodies. ISI chief is also indicted in an American court of law. The priority list is too long. No one will care about the 2005 incident now.

Posted by KPSingh01 | Report as abusive

Ganesh Prasad, TV Sitcom has created many ignorant, grossly false misconceptions about America in you, making your comments quite ridiculously and salaciously entertaining! What a waste for your little grey cells!

You understood the Good Samaritan law exactly backwards.

This is not the first time you twisted facts around on this blog, by the way.

There is no legal obligation to rescue in American law.
The Good Samaritan Statute does not change that.

In fact, under common law, any rescuer who is negligent in the course of rescue, may be sued by the person he tries to help. Also, if somebody starts an attempt of rescue, and then decides to stop, for whatever reason, and leaves the person in a worse situation, he can be sued.

Yes, it is counter-intuitive. If you don’t do anything, do not choose to be a Good Samaritan, there is no legal liability. Under common law, if you choose to be a Good Samaritan and botch it, you can be sued. That’s from age old common law.

The common law applies to doctors passing by a victim. Doctors who choose to rescue may be sued for malpractice.

But if the doctor passing by does nothing to help a stranger lying on the street , the doctor cannot be sued.
A Good Samaritan Statute does not change that.

The Good Samaritan law’s goal is to encourage doctors who would have wanted to help by limiting their legal liability, protect them from being sued for common neligence that were, of course, not intentional. Otherwise, good hearted helpers may be penalized by doing good, just not succeeding. Doctors are most at risk for frivolous lawsuits because the optimal equipment is usually not available, and therefore vulnerable to unfair lawsuits that tend to try to hold them to the standard of professional medical care. That’s the main impetus of the good Samaritan law.

So you have the Good Samaritan law backwards, just like many other words you said on this blog.

I see that you are one of those who try so hard to make yourself look smart by jabbing at others. In every case, you make yourself look dumber and insecure about yourself. You seem to be one wasting your little grey cells to trash, false premises, by filling up your brain with all sorts of false ideas. That’s how Seinfeld tends to ruin many otherwise smart people, you know.

Posted by CommonSensLogic | Report as abusive

By the way, drjay319:

Seinfeld by no means reflect everyday American life that I knew before it came on, not among people I know or grew up with, or work with. In fact, we looked upon Seinfeld with disbelief and disdain and horror because it makes young people feel hip and cool to engage in attitudes that many Americans, from many diverse backgrounds and cultures, still find deplorable.

Americans called the folks generation X, the first generation of spoiled youngsters who were more selfish than any other American values. I personally still cannot accept Seinfeld to be able to persist as mainstream American values, though he broke through some barriers.

Those from outside who see Seinfeld as reflecting American values are quite misguided, including some American kids who were too young to have the critical thinking and analytical skills to see through the absurdity and pitfalls of Seinfeld. That’s why Seinfeld quit so called “at the top”. In fact, con-artists know better to quit before the bad side effects come surfacing left and right.

Posted by jo5319 | Report as abusive

@janeallen
I am simply an observer and I am definitely not looking for votes. I have no appetite for imposters like the Bonapart or the “yes,we can” man, nor have any patience to persuade others of my opinion.
I have not learnt to argue but to explain my views. Have you a question?
We are just watching the drama which is being played by the last Pharoha of Egypt, whose downfall is likely to have serious repercussios for the USA foreign policy in the middle east.

@commonsensLogic

Do us a favour, change your title to nonsense instead. Janeallen could provide you the statistics about USA debts to Saudi’s and the chinese! Why should I be jealous of the country, perhaps a little angry about Madof who has left many in Europe in ruins.
Have a nice day.

Rex Minor

Posted by pakistan | Report as abusive

CommonSensLogic,

Thanks for setting me straight on the Good Samaritan Law, but the same thing could have been said without frothing at the mouth.

Regards,
Ganesh Prasad

Posted by prasadgc | Report as abusive

KP Singh said:

> No one will care about the 2005 incident now.

This is a British investigation. They won’t have the same priorities as the Americans. I think this opens up another uncomfortable front for the Pakistan government. Too many PR fires to put out…

> Right now the juicy matter is about the American diplomat who is in Pakistan’s custody for killing two people. There will be some bargain deal done to exchange the American for some goodies.

Surprisingly, I’m with the Pakistanis on this one. The whole Raymond Davis episode seems very fishy. There was almost certainly some spy stuff going on, and things went wrong. I would really like to see the Pakistanis stand up to the Americans and investigate this fully, rather than back down meekly and hand him over because of his “diplomatic immunity”.

Regards,
Ganesh Prasad

Posted by prasadgc | Report as abusive

This is who Raymond Allen Davis actually is:

http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/lahore-sho oting-raymond-davis-american-official-in volved-shooting/story?id=12785027

a ‘Technical Adviser’ With Special Forces Experience Involved in Apparent Self-Defense Killing. Davis runs Hyperion Protective Consultants, LLC based out of Florida (http://hyperion-protective.com/index.ht ml). US is claiming diplomatic immunity and Pakistan’s stand is; the matter is sujudice in court. Foreign office Islamabad has not clarified the status of Raymond as a diplomat as of yet. This matter is a PR disaster and big blow to Ambassador Munter and his wife Dr. Marilyn’s ‘Tikka’ diplomacy, appearing on TV with discussions with students, having breakfast of traditional dishes in Lahore. As if Pak-America relations were not strained enough, this appears to add to the tension. If Pakistan does not release him, ties with US will be strained. If he is allowed to get away, anti-American public sentiment will further boil. Among all, it is important to look into the case of these private contractors who are heavily paid and employed in large numbers by the Pentagon and DoD in Washington. Most of the times in Iraq and Afgahnistan they have behaved like trigger happy thugs. Lets not forget the backup called in was an SUV which overran and killed another motorcyclist, that consulate SUV along with driver is still not in custody. Also that Raymond’s car was fitted with GPS devices and satelitte navigation system (apparently) and had fake license plates. This case reveals the modus operandi of these private security contractors.

PS
While here the role of US diplomatic mission in Islamabad and consulates in other cities is commendable, together with USAID, USEFP etc agencies they have been doing constructive work. Entire diplomatic community face challenges in Pakistan under current security situation. Hopefully this matter gets resolved and justice is done. The govt. should provide fool proof security and prevent criminals etc to attack diplomats. Also the diplomats should be ensured to enter the country with proper status and stick to their job of diplomacy. That is my opinion of this incident.

@ Ganesh
Just FYI there are no phone boxes around Rawalpindi.

Posted by Umairpk | Report as abusive

Rex;”We are just watching the drama which is being played by the last Pharoha of Egypt”

-Did you watch how armed gangs were unleashed on peaceful protesters in Tahrir Square? Cairo has been the venue of running street battles, the country’s future is being fought for in the streets. Lets hope it does not damage the country, people topple the stubborn dictator. I am shocked how the world is not racheting up the pressure on the old man to go. Bravo to the warriors of freedom, one can’t stop admiring the courage. I sense they are heading for a showdown on Friday, but at this point no one can predict how it will play out. Either the Mubarak regime will outlive the protests till september, or on the other hand 30 years of anger and frustration will further fuel the protests and similar scenes will be repeated across other cities. The sooner Egypt calms dowm the better it will be for them to get back to work.

Posted by Umairpk | Report as abusive

Ganesh: “This is a British investigation. They won’t have the same priorities as the Americans. I think this opens up another uncomfortable front for the Pakistan government. Too many PR fires to put out”

Look at where Mumbai attack investigation is. This one had the highest level of publicity in the world media and Pakistan was caught red handed. Yet the chief of LeT is walking around freely and having dinner with military generals. Other than some Indians, the world has forgotten about Mumbai attacks and moved on, waiting for the next big one somewhere else. Britain cannot do a thing. They might cut a little bit of their economic aid for sometime which no one will care about. Their pride will hurt more when Pakistan makes more nukes than they have and push them down the rank.

Posted by KPSingh01 | Report as abusive

Umairpk: “As if Pak-America relations were not strained enough, this appears to add to the tension. If Pakistan does not release him, ties with US will be strained. If he is allowed to get away, anti-American public sentiment will further boil.”

Is there any information on who those two guys were who were shot dead by this American? Were they really thieves or came to kidnap him at gun point? Do they belong to any militant organization? After seeing Daniel Pearl’s disappearance and murder, it is possible this American sensed something of that nature and reacted. No one will know. If the American gets sentenced, it will hurt US-Pakistan ties like you have said. if he gets pardoned, then the radicals will rise against that. It is a difficult situation indeed.

Posted by KPSingh01 | Report as abusive

Ganesh:
Was there a milk mustache?
Thanks. I’ll make sure I wipe it off before any formal occasion.

Posted by CommonSensLogic | Report as abusive

Don’t worry CommonSensLogic.
I think I saw Seinfeld with a milk mustache at the White House.

I thought you were blunt, but “right on” with Rex Minor.
jo5319 and mortal1 thought he’d alienate 100% Americans and 100% moderate Muslims and practically all mankind.

Rex Minor alienated me 250%. And even if he had not, I do not see how American debt has any common sensical or logical reason to counter your logical points. Rex Minor is delusional that I would submit facts related to American debts to support his argument against yours.

You have a good point about Americans’ complaint that the Middle East keeps erupting in violence for thousands of years, long before America was born. In recent decades, the Middle East has dragged the world into unfair problems, whether it’s exporting terrorism, or stopping the peaceful trade of oil, certainly more than its fair share. Any Middle Eastern country embroiled in conflict must first look into the mirror and ask itself or themselves, how each of them had contributed to this brutal history and the current status quo before any of them points fingers overseas to scapegoat anyone.

If one analyzes how Rex Minor forced the irrelevant issue of American debt into his argument against yours, the only way to explain it, is that he believes that might makes right. That’s quite opposite to basic American democracy, where the weakest and the poorest each have one vote, just like the richest and strongest.

When America helped Europe free itself from the Nazis, and discovered horrific scenes at the concentration, Americans were like Good Samaritans, doing our best. Unlike Britain and other European countries, America has never established colonies in Africa or the Middle East. Europe cannot represent themselves as bystanders Good Samaritans because they had ruled in the Middle East and had the duty to make a fair and orderly transfer of power. America— just good Samaritans.

Rex Minor’s answer to you reveals his undelying(maybe even subconscious) value that the rich and the strong can rampage, rather than the American belief that the man with the highest moral ground and truth will win the final argument.

What came through in his argument against yours, is that his philosophy is equivalent to the philosophy of pirates, gangters, no less.

I do think Rex Minor is an embodiment of nonsense( not yours) because of a few psychiatric trait.
First, delusional that I would defend him. Delusions can be a trait of early schizophrenia.

Second, certainly narcissistic, because he imagines himself running for a political office to avoid answering how unreasonable his statements are. He fails to recognize that a pre-requisite to exercising one’s democratic right as an ordinary citizen is to be able to explain one’s stance logically, and persuasively to one’s representative, senator, or congressman. Rather than recognizing that his belief of being unfairly oppressed is due to his inability to conduct a civil discourse or follow others’ logic and reasoning, he imagined himself to be so superior that he did not need to adhere to common rules of being responsible, civil, or reasonable.
This self-grandiose personality trait can make him prone to become manic or schizophrenic, if he is not careful.

Third, he displays a trait called “flight of ideas” in psychiatry. While others are engaging in logical discusion, he takes a word, and work on the idea in a completely tangential way, with reckless disregard of how his argument had been counteracted fairly and squarely. And he pretended that he had answered to the opposing viewpoint!!!

Flight of ideas is a symptom of early schizoprenia.
Word of caution for you, Rex, if you do not want to work on your communication skills in a class for persuasion, you might find it more helpful to see a psychiatrist. Being unable to find others who readily share your view can be stressful, frustrating, and can aggravate your symptoms.

Your problems have nothing to do with whether America is doing well economically or not. Stop fooling yourself. If you just can’t drop that idea, remind yourself that
America is still richer than the next 2 richest countries combined in worth.

Best wishes.

Posted by Janeallen | Report as abusive

@”America is still richer than the next 2 richest countries combined in worth.”
Posted by Janeallen

It’s actually richer than the next 3 richest countries combined (I’m assuming that you’re talking about nominal GDP here).

Posted by Mortal1 | Report as abusive

@janeallen
If you write your thoughts in english language, do not ignore that it is a Germanic language based on logic, common sense and mathematics. So how come you measure your alienation by 250%. 250 out of 100? Go back to the school and improve your knowledge of statistics! Please let us not degrade the level of debate.

The western civilisation, morals and ethics are the imports from the middle east which were embodied in Christianity and Islam!

Let me also disturb your grand vision of the USA. USA is the only imperial colonialist power in the world which has basedhis foreign policy on lies, says Chaves, not my words. Today America has established military bases inmany parts of the world, from middle east to Afghanistan and from Europe to Japan, South Korea and beyond.

. American military was part of the allied resistance against the german Third Reich and not the only smaritans in the battle aginst the tyrant. It was also the Russian military units which for the first time discovered the concentration camps!
For your info, America has never won a war on its own, o’k they did manage to defeat the American Idians and panamanians on their own, so do not go into delusion. It is unhealthy. It is also not only American belief, but a universal awareness that the man with the highest moral ground and truth will win the final argument and the conflict.

I do not feel or have claimed that I am unfairly oppessed?

The rest of your rhetoric is larifari and a diversion. Also please refrain from personal attacks and use of foul language, just stay within the rulers of Reuters, otherwise I shall be obliged to report your post as abusive!!

Rex Minor

Posted by pakistan | Report as abusive

100% alienated means every reader is either annoyed or feels it’s a waste of time to read your post any more.

250% alienated means you managed to make the reader not read your posts any more, and furthermore, take an opposite stance than yours. You’ve turned off or significantly decreased another person’s sympathy for the cause you had argued for.

I hope this verbal explanation dispel any ambiguity posed by the numerical scale. Professional opinions are intended for your benefit, sincerely. In fact, under some circumstances, to be truthful is a professional obligation.
Honesty with the best intention is by no means in appropriate.
Best of luck, sincerely.

Posted by Janeallen | Report as abusive

@Umairpk
it is a battle of the good versus the evil! Whatever the otcome, the Egyptian youth is demonstratig that despite living for thirty years in one of the ruthless police state, their spirits have remained free and thei fear was a delusion. DIGNITY is leading this struggle and worldwide media deserves to be the first in the world to have conveyed young people aspiration in most of the middle east. Democracy, freedom and dignity are the slogans of our time, the paranoia of the delusionary monsters is no longer actual and all democrtic countries have put in their support behind this unique development in the muslim majority countries. We should applaud the media and recommend them for the Noble prize!! They are being mishandled and are still reporting the events to the world!

Rex Minor

Posted by pakistan | Report as abusive

Guys,

Rex minor posts are stream of pure selfishness even when he poses as some sort of analyst of world trends. He has only one interest – the food, safety and money of people who follow Islam. He divides the world in to those he believes are antoganistic to Muslims – America, ISrael, UK , India and those that are not. He has pure vitriol for the former and case by case praise for the latter as it suits him. He has no universal morals or universal values – its pretty obvious from his comments on blasphemy laws.Its funny he accuses of Indian posters as selfish.

And I did not understand what was the point of this article by Myra – I did not gain any further understanding about future of Egypt other than that Muslim brotherhood and Egyptiam army are players there – something that can be deduced by looking at any news article. Did anybody get anything ?

Posted by kiran123 | Report as abusive

Rex Minor to Janeallen: “Also please refrain from personal attacks and use of foul language, just stay within the rulers of Reuters, otherwise I shall be obliged to report your post as abusive!!

Trying to bully the newcomers, eh? Going by your own criteria, most of your posts should be reported as abusive since they contain personal attacks at some level. For once, try practising what you preach!

Posted by Mortal1 | Report as abusive

@Rex:

@Let me also disturb your grand vision of the USA. USA is the only imperial colonialist power in the world which has basedhis foreign policy on lies, says Chaves, not my words. Today America has established military bases inmany parts of the world, from middle east to Afghanistan and from Europe to Japan, South Korea and beyond.”
***I have a simple question for you. Are you anti-American?

Posted by rehmat | Report as abusive

Mortal1:
It had crossed my mind to report Rex as abusive too, even before he lashed out at Janeallen.
And Rex’s posts weren’t even remotely funny!

Posted by CommonSensLogic | Report as abusive

Rex:

In respectable studies of history, colonies are governed by a viceroy, or governor who is appointed by the colonial or imperial power. No democratic elections are allowed to choose their leader or formulate their laws or constitution.

The United States have never held an imperial colony, like Britain controlled India, for example.

Before United States station troops in Japan and German, both those countries had been ruining themselves by repeatedly and aggressively invading their neighboring countries. Germany started WWI and WWII in Europe. Japan was Hitler’s official allies in its invasion and brutal rule in many parts of Asia.

Under the military influence of the United States, Germany and Japan elected their own Prime Minister. And by being forced to stop invading their neighbors, they both were able to emerge as two of the strongest economies. To call Germany or Japan colonies of United States, and comparing the situation with Imperialistic colonialization would be gross distortion of history.

Using these accepted international definitions of terms, I invited you to scrutinize every other claim of American colonialism. If you think logically, objectively, then you would inevitably ask what are the motives of the person who made such defamatory claims.

Think critically, examine many of the claims you guys place on this forum! If you are objective, you should find yourself quite embarrassed about being misled so easily by folks well known to be demagogues.

Posted by jo5319 | Report as abusive

@”@Let me also disturb your grand vision of the USA. USA is the only imperial colonialist power in the world which has basedhis foreign policy on lies, says Chaves, not my words” Posted by pakistan

Who cares about what Hugo Chavez says? The guy is a well known human rights violator & has lost credibility in the eyes of his own people, the countries in his region & the world at large. I know he’s a poster boy (along with Ahmedinejad) for America haters, the world over but sorry, no one takes him seriously anymore.

Posted by Mortal1 | Report as abusive

Rex minor: You term the Indians who disagree with you & are critical of you, as the “Indian mob”, so what would you call the above posters who are critical of you? “the Global mob”?

Posted by Mortal1 | Report as abusive

jo5319: “Think critically, examine many of the claims you guys place on this forum! If you are objective, you should find yourself quite embarrassed about being misled so easily by folks well known to be demagogues.”

Do you think this guy is reading any of what you are writing? Even if he does, do you think he is comprehending any of it? Trying to tell this guy about the reality is like giving massage to a corpse. Nothing gets in. He has a very warped idea of the world tinted by his Islamic viewpoint. He rejects anything that does not fall along his view. We all have tried to reason with him and like many Pakistanis, he repeats the same thing over and over again. Anyone who tries to reason with him becomes a member of a mob. He is simply filling up the pages of this forum without making any sense most of the time.

Posted by KPSingh01 | Report as abusive

UK is beginning to sense the mistake it made as a colonial power – dividing people by using religion in order to create a military garrison for taking on its imperialistic rival – Russia.

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/02/06/world/ europe/06britain.html?_r=1&hp

UK is second home for many Pakistanis. Having pampered them for so long, now UK is at the receiving end – facing Islamic terrorism on its own home soil. France is in the same boat. It is a little too late in my opinion to take actions against the radicals growing up as UK citizens. One reaps what he sows. It is UK’s turn to realize what they have done to India. It is unfortunate that the current generation and beyond will pay for the mistakes and blunders committed by their colonial forefathers.

European cultures are as militant as the Islamists are. They do not talk philosophy. They talk rights, equality, democracy, welfare etc only for themselves. They never cared if others burned in that process of having a good life. When their lovely lives are threatened at their own home, they will drop all those values and take to arms without hesitation. Radical Muslims might have found it easier to poke at a spongy country like India. Europe will be a very different story. Driven by pride of the past and arrogance, radials will take on Europe. Their exit from Afghanistan soon will be considered and declared as their defeat and victory for Allah’s soldiers. Just watch. These people do not stop with an enemy retreating. They get encouraged to harass them further and take war into their homelands. It is only the beginning. The US and Europe have a price to pay for having manipulated this monster and used it to their advantage. Now it is their turn to face it. It is not only them who is facing it. Their allies are facing it already. Pakistan’s burning at the hands of the extremists is the tell-tale sign of what is coming ahead for the Western world.

Posted by KPSingh01 | Report as abusive

@jo5319
Quid Verba audiam, Cum facta Videam!
Audiatur et altera pars. Odi profanum vulcas et arceo.
Have a word with Germans and Japanese!

Rex Minor

Posted by pakistan | Report as abusive

@Rexy

No need to use languages other than English. You don’t make sense anyways. Another waste of Network Data

Posted by punjabiyaar | Report as abusive

Rex:

Don’t be worried about the mob, we are very well capable to rebuttal them.

KPSingh:
Your use of the terms “Islamists” “Islamic terrorism” radicals etc are foolish. You don’t even know what you are talking about, please in this day and age of communication and information technology don’t be ignorant and become victim of neocon propaganda. Watch this documentary ‘The power of nightmares’ by Adam Curtis , it is the corrupt politician that is scaring you from radicals militants etc;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qk1WkmioQ vA

I really feel very sorry for misguided people like you who feed on conspiracy theories and live in a paranoid world. In Britian the Muslim population is vibrant, affluent and Pakistani origin citizens have done well in various fields and significantly contributed to their community. Same is the story of other ethnic muslims, elswhere in Europe too, be it France or Germany. Many times muslims there face a lot of issues, despite trying their best to assimilate, despite the challenges they have been successful in business, as enterpreneurs, in public services etc. Right wing Dutch politician like Geert Wilders have been a know hate mangerer against Musllims inciting violence through his acts. similarly many other radical British groups are there too, France bans burqa, Switzerland bans minerates of Mosques etc.

On the other hand, USA gives total liberty and freedom to all faiths, a country based on multiculturalism. See where the USA stands, and good for David Cameroon, Britain will go to dogs when multiculturalism finishes. Britain for whitees and kick out everyone else following a different culture religion or having different skin color. I call this RACISM! and racism has no place in civilized society.

Posted by Umairpk | Report as abusive

Punjabiyaar:”No need to use languages other than English. You don’t make sense anyways. Another waste of Network Data”

-Wow sardar ji is very tech savvy, let me just add, network data’s right word should be bandwidth. so you must state bandwidth. Don’t think it is just you who makes sense and others don’t. It is people like you who are utter non-sense.

Posted by Umairpk | Report as abusive

PS

Just to add, David Cameroon is doing nothing new, it is part of anti-Muslim wave sweeping largely in Europe, the Swedish political party is becoming anti-Muslim. While Carla Sarkozy is a super model, President Sarkozy bans burqa in France thinking all Muslim women covering themselves are oppressed, Switzerland is scared of Mosque minerates and so on, in the name of freedom of expression, Denmark allowed controversial anti-Islam cartoon to be printed in newspapers, etc. Geert Wilders in Netherlands has a criminal mentality against Muslims.

In the end, we the people are just people and it is the politician (crook) politician that manipulates us for power.

The USA is one shining example where religious freedom, liberty, equal rights and justice, tolerance of other faiths is part of society. That is why it is a super power and that is why I think it might remain a super power for quite a while. The people, the regular folks are never at fault or evil. It is the radical few, and the corrupt power hungry politicians who manipulate, and some ignorant fools who fall prey to them.

Posted by Umairpk | Report as abusive

KPSingh

It is a sincere request to please watch “The power of nightmares” and know that there is no such thing as Islamist, or Islamic terrorism, its all non-sense created to scare you into submission. Refuse it, become engaged, and be aware. It will be a pity of you live like a fearsome person scared from shadows and non-existant threats.

Posted by Umairpk | Report as abusive

*It will be a pity of you live like a *FEARFUL* person scared from shadows and non-existant threats.

Posted by Umairpk | Report as abusive

“Wow sardar ji is very tech savvy, let me just add, network data’s right word should be bandwidth. so you must state bandwidth. Don’t think it is just you who makes sense and others don’t. It is people like you who are utter non-sense.”

–Posted by Umairpk

Umair I meant Rex (now you also) is wasting Network and Data both. I know what bandwidth is and just about every other term in detail which made internet happen and running it now.

But everybody here is not in IT, Just trying to use generally understandable language not some Mumbo Jumbo in Rex’s ancient cult language. May be you can provide us the translation of Rex’s comment in question coz you are from same Great tribe under attack from Neocon Zionist, Jews, Hindus, Blackwater, Crusaders, Templars, Martians, UFOs, Oracles, Chinese Chequers and specially from Black Ninjas dressed like little school girls.

It Must be hard to live when so many conspiracies are hatched against you. May be your Murshad (Guru) Zaid Hamid should be next prime minister of Pakistan. Only he can save Pakistan, No body else.

Posted by punjabiyaar | Report as abusive

@Umair
What makes you think I am Sikh, But its not only you who have this Narrow vision, almost Pakistanis think Indian Punjab means Sikh and India means Hindu. This tell me about your understanding of this region.

Posted by punjabiyaar | Report as abusive

Punjabiyaar:”It Must be hard to live when so many conspiracies are hatched against you. May be your Murshad (Guru) Zaid Hamid should be next prime minister of Pakistan. Only he can save Pakistan,”

-wow,w,ww wait wait, Zaid Hamid would be the last crack pot I would listen to. I am fairly liberal by Pakistani standards and not a fan of either Zakir Naik or Zaid Hamid, almost NEVER listen to them, never.
And I am from Pakistani punjab, so we are pUnjabi brothers. So cool down bro and don’t attack others including Rex Minor.

Enjoy this clip showing the colorful and cute Egypt revolution.

Mubarak Gone Mad

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H7eNEYrl1 5w

Posted by Umairpk | Report as abusive

here is 1` more

Protesters in Tahrir Square break into song

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ahCwBBndl VY&feature=player_embedded

Would Love to be part of this colorful revolution.

Posted by Umairpk | Report as abusive

Umairpk wrote
“there is no such thing as Islamist, or Islamic terrorism, its all non-sense created to scare you into submission”

==

Thanks for the burst of fiction there…instead of wasting time in Reuters blog you should consider writing fiction…you seem to be good at it……

Also …your support for Egyptian protesters sounds very hollow….Hosni Mubarak is an armyman who usurped power illegally…just like the pak military dictators…If you support them, the equivalent of that would be pakistanis rioting and rampaging the houses and properties of current and ex-generals of pak army who have plundered and ruined the country.

Posted by netizen | Report as abusive

I was pleasantly surprised to read this balanced account of the Kashmir issue in a Pakistani newspaper (“Territorial Solidarity for Kashmir”). I did not find anything in it that an Indian might object to. If Indians and Pakistanis can begin to agree on a common narrative, then there is hope for progress. Sticking to divergent positions will not do anyone any favours.

http://bit.ly/flCRR4

Regards,
Ganesh Prasad

Posted by prasadgc | Report as abusive

@Ganesh Prasad
I did not find anything in it that an Indian might object to.
==

Well…not sure about excessive praise for that editorial. Advocating “independence” for Kashmir is not as much refreshing or new as it seems to you.

Pak media is full of ISI implanted stories..even the editorials have to be within certain boundaries…as long as the DT editor advocates “independence” for Kashmir, admitting pakistan army sponsored terrorism is fine…this just a refinement of same old strategy…

Basically it is the same obsession, how to undermine India. Crocodile tears for Kashmiris…ironically same article says sindhis, balochis are all demanding more rights for themselves and are not interested in Kashmir.

Posted by netizen | Report as abusive

http://img696.imageshack.us/img696/9219/ funnyk.jpg

Quite Funny, Indian tourism advertisement on Pakistani News website Dawn.com, No nobody hacked Dawn, Courtesy Google PPC.

Posted by punjabiyaar | Report as abusive

Umair,
Well said!! There are a number of fellow travellers now on this blog now who are taking a free rideand becomin personal and do not have respect for the post mrked ‘personal’.

The youth from the Arabian world is finaly on the march with a slogan of DIGNITY, FREEDOM and FAMILY. The arabian world is one of the richest, which is hitherto has been explited and squandered by a certain section of the society. People who gave knowledge of science, Al Gebra and Arithmatic and brought religion, the three Ibrahimic faiths one by one into the world, has become a laughing stock, because of their archaic, authoritative and despot Govts and head of states.

Pakistan leaders need to reset their mechanical systms and address the issues befoe it is too late. Those foreign leaders who insult the respect of Pakistani people or the Govt. should be eclared as “person non grata”. The young aggressive former bicycle rider and today’s PM from Britain should be the first candidate.

Rex Minor

Posted by pakistan | Report as abusive

Netizen,

Actually, the article deviates quite a bit from the party line, which is what makes it refreshing.

These points would not make the extreme Pakistani right wing happy:

1. Sindh, Balochistan and Khyber-Pakhtunkhwa (formerly NWFP) are also fighting for their rights and don’t seem to care about Kashmir Solidarity Day.

2. It is unrealistic to expect India to give up (Indian-held) Kashmir.

3. Both India and Pakistan play the UN resolutions card, which doesn’t have independence for Kashmir as a third option. Pakistan will have to give up Azad Kashmir and possibly Gilgit-Baltistan if Kashmir becomes truly independent.

4. LeT an Hizb-ul-Mujaheddin weakened the Kashmiri cause through terrorist activities.

5. Jehadist groups drove out Kashmiri Pandits and alienated many Kashmiri Muslims.

6. LeT is responsible for the honor killing of two sisters in Sopore.

7. People of Azad Kashmir are not happy with their situation either.

And then there are the statements that the extreme pro-India types would not like:

1. Rigged elections in 1989

2. Brutalities of the Indian army

3. Indigenous uprising in 2010

4. Demand for repeal of the Armed Forces Special Powers Act and reduction of military presence.

I thought it was fairly balanced. I try not to be jingoistic and would like to see both sides of an issue. I can agree with the points made against India, and these have not been made from the perspective that Pakistan’s actions are above reproach. The article criticises both sides for their failings. I think if the mass of people on both sides are able to accept such an even-handed analyis of the situation, then we can start to think about progress. Until now, the narratives from the two sides was too different and irreconcilable.

Regards,
Ganesh Prasad

Posted by prasadgc | Report as abusive

Correction:

Until now, the narratives from the two sides WERE too different and irreconcilable.

Regards,
Ganesh Prasad

Posted by prasadgc | Report as abusive

@netizen

It’s unfair to club all of Pakistan’s media together as a part of PA/ISI’s propaganda machinery. There are a few credible media sources in Pakistan like Dawn, Daily Times & a few others which are quite fair & balanced and are critical of PA/ISI at times. From what I can tell, they do not sunbscribe to the hateful anti-India agenda which is subscribed by many PA/ISI backed newspapers & chanels. To a cerain extent, the media of every country (including India & US) promotes that country’s foreign policy. In Pakistan’s case, it’s a lot more profound but there are independent & unbiased sources, nevertheless.

@Ganesh

I agree, the article is pretty fair & highlights a reality which neither India, nor Pakistan want to accept.

Posted by Mortal1 | Report as abusive

@Umair

Regarding ‘The power of nightmares’, I see that you get influenced very easily by isolated articles/videos which impress you & are quick to declare them as some sort of a holy prophecy. Don’t forget that they are just opinions of an individual & don’t mean much unless that indvidual has very high credibility. Islamic terrorism is not some work of fiction created by politicians. It’s very much a reality, which was created by groups & individuals who carried out acts of terrorism in various parts of the world, killing innumerable innocent civilians. If you want to ignore the reality (or find reasons to ignore it), that’s your choice but don’t expect others to do so.

Posted by Mortal1 | Report as abusive

Umairpk: “Your use of the terms “Islamists” “Islamic terrorism” radicals etc are foolish. You don’t even know what you are talking about, please in this day and age of communication and information technology don’t be ignorant and become victim of neocon propaganda.”

Your denials will not reverse the reality. 9/11 was carried out by Islamic radicals. They were not carried out by oppressed people. Bali bombings were not carried out by Communists. , US embassy bombing in Kenya and Tanzania, 7/11 in UK, Madrid train bombings, Moscow suicide bombs, Mumbai attacks etc were carried out by Muslim militants. There was no one from any other community indulging in these terrorist acts. You must be deluding yourself if you think these are not radicalized militants who were driven into committing suicide attacks on innocent people. And their acts are termed as Islamic terrorism. There are separatist groups like those in Basque, Northern Ireland, North East Sri Lanka etc who resorted to similar acts of violence. At least two of them have been quelled. Today, what dominates the world’s worry is radical Islam where fighting non-Muslims, converting them to Islam, demanding room for puritanical Muslim practices in non-Muslim majority countries etc. Whether you like it or not, whether you are good citizen or not, your religious community is not being looked at with friendliness across the globe. And this is due to the acts of few radicalized groups which have used violence against non-Muslims in order to draw retaliation against the overall Muslim communities across the world and have been trying to create a divide between Muslims and others. People like you are falling into their hands by arguing with others who are pointing the radicals. That is the sign of alienation’s beginning.

This is not some sudden phobia that I have developed. I live in India where any community can be facing rioters with clubs and knives. And my community has been at the receiving end on many occasions. Terrorism as a weapon is being increasingly used by Muslim radical groups across the world. They shed crocodile tears for fellow Muslims and claim to be fighting for the rights of all Muslims. They simply are trying to control others by using violence which is an easy thing to stage. Their suicide attacks on fellow Muslims itself is proof enough to show that they do not care for anyone.

You do not have to take everything as a personal insult because your country or community is being pointed at. You did not commit any of the acts your leaders and community members are being accused of. Therefore there is no need to be defensive at all costs. If you are supporting the rioters in Egypt against Mubarak, then you must be staging the same in Pakistan against your military establishment which has been responsible entirely for the state your country is in now. But I cannot demand that from you. It is entirely your choice and freedom. However, you should not try to negate the reality in one stroke by declaring that there is no such thing as Islamic radicalism. If that is the case, India as the enemy number one of Pakistan is a myth which you are not willing accept in your heart.

I did see the video link you quoted. I do not disagree that the Western powers are responsible for a lot of calamities around the world. Power corrupts and they have caused a lot of damage to many societies across the world. A lot of business interests and arrogance have been involved. The US did use Islamic radicalism as a weapon to defeat the Soviet Union in Afghanistan. But this weapon, they assumed would only be used against their enemies and not against themselves. Your military fell for the same assumption. They assumed that Islamic radicals would all unite and be focused against India and now they are facing the same radicals that they helped create and support. Your military is their servant. It takes orders from the Americans. So if you accuse the Americans, you are indirectly accusing your favorite military of Pakistan.

Posted by KPSingh01 | Report as abusive

@KPS

“Today, what dominates the world’s worry is radical Islam where fighting non-Muslims, converting them to Islam, demanding room for puritanical Muslim practices in non-Muslim majority countries etc.”
***While I do not disagree with rest of your article, I disagree that the aim of radical Muslims is to convert Non-Muslims to Muslims. This is neither the aim if Islam nor radical Islam. Conversions are done by Christian missionaries. NOn-Muslims converting to Islam is either voluntary or more complex due to local problems Non-Muslims face in SOME Muslim majority nations.

Posted by rehmat | Report as abusive

I think Rehmat’s point is valid. Conversion is mostly a Christian phenomenon, and it’s quite aggressively done, by many accounts (http://bit.ly/fsKhq7). By contrast, the last mass conversion to Islam that I heard of was in 1981 (Meenakshipuam in Tamil Nadu).

Reading the account of those villagers 30 years later (http://bit.ly/h4OLIV), I would wholeheartedly agree with their decision. Given that Hinduism has been so oppressive to the Dalits, I’m all in favour of them converting to other religions to escape the discrimination. More power to them!

This phenomenon (of mass conversion to other religions) also provides a strong incentive to Hinduism to reform itself. That’s happening gradually in any case, but I suspect it is economic forces such as modernisation and urbanisation that are weakening the bonds of caste rather than the fear of conversion.

In any case, if Indian society can weaken the bonds of both caste and organised religion, leaving people as equals, free to practise their private faith or non-faith without external pressure, that will be great. I think the country is gradually moving in that direction anyway.

Regards,
Ganesh Prasad

Posted by prasadgc | Report as abusive

@Umair

The backgound for the label terrorism is simpler than one thinks. The American administration refused to tell the world what the definition of a terrorism is, in order to avoid being compelled to send Henry Kissinger and oliver north in Prison! Th neocons came up with Islamic terrorism label and received support for the spin even from the Govts.of muslim countries.

KP rhetoric is relatively harmless and is based on NYtimes and WashingtonTimes, whose propaganda incidently is regarded by most Ameericans as gospels. Both papers spend hevy sums (corruption) to gain info from the Govt. sources.

The new phenomina Wikileak told us that the American admin. knew about the lies which Mubarik was sending about the so called Muslim Bros. Nevertheless, the USA used Mubarik for randition purpose and had innocentmuslimsrecive a dose of Egyption tortue. Both Afghanistan and Pakistan Govts should be aware that the CIA people do provide to their admin. about the larifari info the respective Govts. put out simply t assure USA financial support for hir military.

Pakisan needs reforms in military and their education system. The new leaders will have o clear ou the mess, most of which has been created localy.

Pakistan has political disputes with India and they need to be confronted with politcal solutions. No more diplomatic ties with the current Indian Govt.PERIOD.

Name all high schools as Madrassas! religious eduction in schools should be made compulsary if not yet implemented.Peopl who wish to study theology, i.e Islam and wt to tach Islam in chools must graduate simulaneously in Phlosophy.

Islam is the source for knowledge and human values. Let it stand with pride and compete with other faiths. Bth Indian and Pakistani muslims have retained many from the time when they were not of muslim faith and regard them as Islamic, not dfferent from today’s Arab muslims who have kept some of their traditions when their ancestors for infidels. mos of these traditions are harmless but do cause confusion in different sections of the muslim scommunities.

Rex Minor

PS I am proud to have been born a muslim and I thank the almighty Allah( Aramaish language) and God in anglo son language.

Posted by pakistan | Report as abusive

Rex:

Well said, war on (t)error is a farce, and in Cairo christians protect Muslims when they are praying, all human beings egpytian citizens from different walks of life, different religious background have come out with one voice. FREEDOM! No more CIA rendition programs, no more torture, people have waken up from Slumber, Julian Assange wikileaks founder has done the damage. He is fighting extradition and in the meantime a whole bunch of other wikileak websites have sprung up to expose the lies.
In Arab now a new awakening is under way, no more neo-con propaganda. All people are equal, interfaith harmony is at display and people are standing up for what they believe in. Their goal was to potray Islam as enemy and muslims as terrorists. And looks they have miserably failed, but frustrated as they are they will continue to the path of destruction. All we nee dto do is to stand up let it be knoiwn what Islam truly stands for.

Posted by Umairpk | Report as abusive

Rehmat,

May be I did not convey my point clearly in regards to the goal of radical Muslims. Definitely you are correct in the sense that their goal does not compare with those of Evangelical Christians who use a very broad and organizational approach towards conversion. The Saudi Wahabi mission is using similar methods across the world to lure locals into the folds of Islam. And this organization is towards puritanical form of Arab Islam which appeals to the extremists across the world. I’ll refer you to a book titled “My year inside radical Islam” by Daveed Gartenstein-Ross. It could be an issue of sponsorship and funding that radical Muslims look for in the Saudi missions. Al Qaeda is against the Saudi royal family as well. They are trying to use every weapon available to them to achieve their ends.

Though I do not buy the logic used by Western powers, radical Islam does stand up as their number one enemy today. It is the Western powers that propped up radical Islam, gave them support and even accommodated them wherever possible so long as the radicals worked in their favor. Now they do feel threatened to see the boldness and spread of radicalism. There definitely is a lot of anger against radical Muslims in the Western world today. The problem is – they cannot tell the difference between moderate and radical Muslims. And this is what the radicals are trying to capitalize on. This is much similar to insurgency in urban centers. No one can tell the difference between insurgents and locals. Over a period of time, locals get punished for the acts of insurgents and shift their loyalty towards the insurgents. We have seen this in North Eastern Sri Lanka against the IPKF and Indian troops in Kashmir. Now the Americans have begun to feel the heat in Afghanistan as well. That was the point I was making. Driving a wedge takes time and the radicals know this well. They keep saying they have time on their hands.

Posted by KPSingh01 | Report as abusive

Umairpk: “All people are equal, interfaith harmony is at display and people are standing up for what they believe in.”

I think you are unaware that you are negating the very basis of creating Pakistan by the above statement. Unless you believe that Muslims have a world on their own in which equality, freedom etc matter only to Muslims and not others. The Europeans have had the belief for a long time. Based on what you have said above, how do you look at the justification for the creation of Pakistan?

Posted by KPSingh01 | Report as abusive

KPSingh:You suffer from 1947 partition hang over, the creation of Pakistan is something different. I amtalking in today’s context and the topic under discussion, Pakistan’s pitfalls and future of Egypt. The full name of Egypt is “ARAB REPUBLIC OF EGYPT” and Pakistan is “ISLAMIC REPUBLIC OF PAKISTAN”. So in Egypt they have coptic christians who speak Arabic, but follow a different religion, so you have similarly druze and chrstians in Lebanon. In Pakistan too there are hindus, christian minorities etc. But Pakistan is an Islamic Republic, does not mean that minority should be persecuted or wiped out though. I can share pictures of how christians and Muslims are united in Egypt.
Back in late 1940s in British India, Hindus and Muslims were not on the same page, partition was inevitable, two nation theory emerged and the dream of Pakistan became a reality.

Posted by Umairpk | Report as abusive

Let us move forward in 2011. There are radicals in this world and so called Terrorists or Resistance, depending upon which side they repesent! Most of the fathers of today’s America were considered in such categries when they fought the colonialist English; today they are worshiped as Fathers of the Nation.

There are also criminals who for one or other reason cut down a human for one or other reason, and these guys shold not be honoured to allocate them a religion. Letus call them atheists or non believers as appropriate in a country.

Let us also not forget politics and especially the machiavelli or the modern spin doctors as well as the evil or devil among us.

For me the one who lies for deception should no longer claim to be the belever. Colin Powel lied to the world about Sadam Hussain and then claimed innocence and then blamed CIA input. Tony Blair and many fellow travellers did the same.

Now I ask Myra, what is the role of Allah in aramaish language that Jesus spoke or God in english language? Pakistan Army should pay special attention to what is happening in the Arab world.I salute the arab and the non Arab youth who are going to move out of the bunkers to construct the new world order. Arab youth had to takethe lead since they are almost two third of their populaion. They are already late in starting the new revolution, which I was expecting in the past decade?

Umair, Europe is not anti-muslim, some politicians are! Muslims are not a minority in this world and they should be conscious of this! It is upto the muslims wheather they regard themselves as a minority or a majority in indvidual countries. Muslims must demonstrate the Islamic values to the non muslims and not their outmoded attires or long beards which is foreign to the western world.

Rex Minor

Posted by pakistan | Report as abusive

@Umair

Let us remember that God’s Prophet Mohammad(PBUH) did not bring the message of God for anew religion. Islam was to reinforce and clarify the Ibrahimic religion for Arabs.

Rex Minor

Posted by pakistan | Report as abusive

@KP
You are now living in a sort of democratic country. Please try not to get carried away with emotions, which is sometimes needed to unload the pressure, but not to resolve problems. Try to understand and appreciate democracy.

Pakistan was created by the majority of muslims tosolve the racial conflicts in India, not so much perhaps in Punjab and Pakhoonkhwa erhaps. Many innocent lives were lost and many lost their homes.I understand from another blog that those who migrated to India from tday’s Pakistan were rapidly settled by the Indian Govt. and are now fully integrated? Pakistan experience has not so far been a bed of roses.

But we must accept the MAJORITY decision, whether it turns out to be a good thing for thepeople or not?

Rex Minor

Toughluck for you that you are in a country which takes and requires a quarter of a million immigrants and assylum seekers in the country. A cold country larger in size than the USA and have a population less than half of Egypt. Canada is still better off han the USA which requires a larger number of immigrants and is less peaceful tha Canada. My american friends on this blog should recall Obama’s recent speach in Arizona, where a young guy shot down twenty seven innocent lives. Is it something perhaps with eating harme treated animal meat?

Rex Minor

Posted by pakistan | Report as abusive

PS
correction;
harmone rich animal meat!

Posted by pakistan | Report as abusive

Rex:
“For me the one who lies for deception should no longer claim to be the belever. Colin Powel lied to the world about Sadam Hussain and then claimed innocence and then blamed CIA input. Tony Blair and many fellow travellers did the same.”

-Agreed, and for anyone who claims Pakistan media is controlled by ISI, just google “Operation mockingbird” (an organization that concentrated on “propaganda, economic warfare; preventive direct action, including sabotage, anti-sabotage, demolition and evacuation measures; subversion against hostile states, including assistance to underground resistance groups, and support of indigenous anti-Communist elements in) you will know whose media propaganda is more stronger.

Also Rex, I am aware Europe as a whole is not anti-Muslim there are huge Algerian-Morroco Muslims in France, Britain has many Muslims from diff. backgrounds etc similar in other nations. What I stated is they have few anti-Muslim politicians that incite hatred and fearmongering regarding Muslims. The problem is at govt. level not people’s level.

you also stated:
“Muslims must demonstrate the Islamic values to the non muslims and not their outmoded attires or long beards which is foreign to the western world”

-my question to you is, in all pictures, sculptures/statues, Jesus is shown in beard in the west by christians, similarly Mary is depicted in attire, robe etc. So why is it so unusual for Muslim woman to wear hijab or Muslim men to grow beard? This is where I state politicians have hijacked religion and play their card to stay in power. I agree, Muslims must demonstrate the Islamic values to the non muslims. And those values are, peace, tolerance, brotherhood, equality, unity etc alms for poor etc. We must rather emphasize on these values to remove negative stereotypes.

Posted by Umairpk | Report as abusive

Umairpk:”Back in late 1940s in British India, Hindus and Muslims were not on the same page, partition was inevitable, two nation theory emerged and the dream of Pakistan became a reality.”

I disagree with this belief. A few Muslims (especially rich ones) who suddenly felt that after the departure of the British, they would have to be under a Hindu majority rule. Most Muslims were happy where they were. And it is these powerful Muslims who triggered violence against non-Muslims. It was called Direct action day. This was a desperate act because their pursuit was losing steam. They knew retaliation would come and it would be directed at the masses. It helped them instill this fear that Hindus are out to destroy Muslims. Your country is still living in that paranoia that these selfish Muslim leaders created. My community is even smaller than yours. And we do not fear Hindu domination. Hindus have their own issues where they are divided by caste and class system. They are not a uniform religious block as being projected in your country. They are more at loggerheads than anyone else.

Now coming to Egypt and Pakistan – Egypt was not carved out of a majority non-Muslim state. They have been Muslims since after the demise of Muhammad. It is their culture that is tolerant of others. Them being Muslims has nothing to do with it. And they hate the Jews. If Jews had lived in a sizable minority status in Egypt, things would be very different. In Pakistan our Punjabi community dominates. And ours is a martial culture. And Muslims from the Punjabi community in Pakistan have turned more towards the intolerant side of Islam. This is due to economic downgrading over a decade or more. If the economy revives and people get jobs, they can turn around. At least the next generation can. To accomplish that goal, foreign investment has to increase, jobs and training have to multiply. In today’s scenario, I do not know how many foreign companies are willing to venture into Pakistan.

Pakistan can run its own revolution against feudal landlords. More than fighting against any dictatorships or corrupt politicians, a revolution can be staged to drive out all feudal landlords and distribute the land amongst the tillers. Until this revolution happens, Pakistan is at the hands of its elites and the military.

Coming to freedom, co-existence etc, these are not something that come into the picture once in a while. They are universal values and they always exist. Only people have to remember them and consciously attempt to achieve them. Prior to independence, Indian politics was dominated by secular minded politicians from the Congress party. They just happened to be Hindus by an accident of birth. But Muslim politicians twisted the reality to gain power on their own by quoting the Hindu majority phobia. The British exploited it to the hilt.

Hope I have made myself clear.

Posted by KPSingh01 | Report as abusive

Pakistan: “Pakistan was created by the majority of muslims tosolve the racial conflicts in India, not so much perhaps in Punjab and Pakhoonkhwa erhaps.”

Racial conflicts? Do you have any clear idea about the races in India? Punjabis were one ethnic group with four different religious sub-groups. The majority Muslim group separated itself in the form of religion. Sindh was a distinctly separate ethnic group out of which no Muslim had to migrate into Pakistan, while the non-Muslims Sindhis had to. Pakistan was not divided based on racial lines. It was divided based on flimsy religious lines. And that flimsy argument was proved beyond doubt when Bengali Muslims revolted and fought for their own independence into Bangladesh.

“Many innocent lives were lost and many lost their homes.I understand from another blog that those who migrated to India from tday’s Pakistan were rapidly settled by the Indian Govt. and are now fully integrated? Pakistan experience has not so far been a bed of roses.”

India focused on nation building. It wanted to settle the migrants as quickly as possible and move on. In Pakistan, Muhajirs are still in conflict with others. I have seen Umair mention about Musharraf as “Hindustara.”

Muslim leaders staged violent protests and managed to carve a nation out for themselves. But after that they had no further agenda. Pakistan was sought and it was a reality. They had no answer to what was next. No one had any plans to build a nation. So the feudal system remained and has taken Pakistan to ruination. But for making itself a key ally in super power rivalry, Pakistan would have fallen apart long ago. It is the cold war that helped Pakistan survive through its military. A country cannot be run by living off the paranoia of a neighboring state for too long. That is why instead of building a nation, Pakistan is building more nukes. More than it really needs.

“But we must accept the MAJORITY decision, whether it turns out to be a good thing for thepeople or not?”

If that is the case, the majority did not support the creation of Pakistan. So who decided that they should separate?

BTW, I am not living in the partition day memories. To me partition has led to the misery we face today. It has not benefited anyone. It has not made lives better for anyone. It destroyed families. It separated out families. It led to the massacre of close to two million people. It led to conflicts and now a nuclear threat that can destroy the 1.5 billion people of entire South Asia. I am looking at matters from the objectives to end result stand point. If partition happened like Malaysia and Singapore, that would have been fine. Singapore progressed into an ultra modern city state. And Malaysia developed on its own into a progressive Islamic state. They both are not pointing the barrels of their guns at each other. True leaders think of all consequences of their actions and act accordingly. Politicians on the other hand look for short sighted goals that help them gain in the short run. They can always switch colors according to times which true leaders will not. Pakistan was the result of short sighted and selfish politicians that included some Muslims and the British politicians. India had a leader and the country was formed and built on his principles.

If partition had not happened, the war against the Soviets would not have happened. Progress could have happened across the whole South Asian region. Islamic radicalism, rise of the Madrasas, Jihad, 9/11, London, Madrid, Mumbai attacks, 70000 deaths in Kashmir due to insurgency etc would not have happened. There was a lot to gain by not partitioning than by partitioning. I am looking at things from that stand point. I know that Pakistan now is a reality and I have no issues with that. However, in order to seek a solution to today’s stalemate in South Asia, one needs to know the real truth behind the past historical events. Many Pakistanis and Muslims have been misled.

It is important to build bridges than walls. But I see the preference to be for the latter. Pakistan is becoming more radical which means the wall has to go even taller. And all this end result is due to the partition done decades ago, dividing people living next to each other in peace.

Posted by KPSingh01 | Report as abusive

@Umair

Muslim women can wear any design of dress they prefer, wear a so called hijab if they want and grow beards if they want. But do not clam that it has something to do with Islam! The Europeans had hese attires centuris ago and those who want to come to western Europe are expected by local communities to integrate and not cleate separate ghettos. Let us recall that over a century ago the Egyptian women got rid of their veils in the so called Maidan e Tahreer well over a century ago.

History is the evidence that civilisation, which came from the east became fully anchored in Europe and progressed, whereas, the colonistion followed by the authoritative and regressive Govts. negatively impacted the progress of many Nations.

People in Europe are learning for the first time that opposition muslim parties in Arab counties were democratic in their vision, pluralistic and were more involved in social well being of their people than those in the Govt. who had built up a massive security apparatus simply to keep and perpetuate their rule over the people. A quick study has revealed that more than 60 percent arabians would like o have Turkish stye Govt., an Islamic Republic, practicing muslims with a secular Govt., which aceptes human rights and democracy with minority participation as equals.

I trust that no one is going to tell me that this is not what Islam is all about.

Rex Minor

Posted by pakistan | Report as abusive

PS
I came across a suggestion from an Indian hindu by the name of Sudhir, who said something along the lines that in Pakistan, instead of blaming muslim clergy who quote Quraan references in their speaches, the liberals could also quote Quraan references in the rebuttal. This gentleman obviously had some knowledge of the scriptures.

@KP
Most probably you are right in your analysis. We must, however, move on and curse if you will those who made errors before us in their time. We do not have unlimited time and try not to make the same errors. We have the stregnth to move things forward, if one, two and more desire it.

Rex Minor

Posted by pakistan | Report as abusive

@Umair
sorry my note book is playing silly at this time.

It is a sheer non-sennse for any one to state that intelligence services of a country has a control over the country. Intelligence agencies task is to provide info. to their Govts. and it is the Govt. who are responsible for the decision which are made on the infowhich is gathered.

ISI is competent and in my view of world class. And since Pakistan military was and is more powerful than the civilan Govt ( something like the former state of affairs in Turkey), this made ISI as powerful as the CIA.

This blog is under review by several intelligence agencies, simply because our Indian friends have been including abbreviations, to which the computers are allergic to in Langley and other centres. I quoted Chairman Mao, the great philosopher of our time and back came the response from guess, who? The commander of the airbourne division and Nuclear force in Afghanistan!He was also very kind to tell the author of the article on Afghan Blog, what the American strategic objective is!

So be careful, do not say what you are not supposed to say!

Rex Minor

Posted by pakistan | Report as abusive

@”Muslims must demonstrate the Islamic values to the non muslims. And those values are, peace, tolerance, brotherhood, equality, unity etc alms for poor etc. We must rather emphasize on these values to remove negative stereotypes.” Posted by Umairpk

Demonstrating the real islamic values would be a good thing but you also need to accept that there are radical/extremist elements within your community which encourage terrorism. Denying something which is so blatantly obvious to others or blaming someone else for it or making excuses for it, alienates non-muslims even more. For me, personally, nothing causes more exasperation than a muslim saying that 9/11 was an inside CIA job or that the mumbai attacks were a farce planned by RAW. It tells me that, that particular individual does not care for non-muslim lives.

Posted by Mortal1 | Report as abusive

The Daily Times editorial “Territorial Solidarity for Kashmir” has been noticed by the Hindustan Times as well.

http://bit.ly/ecv9hm

Could this bit of honest analysis break the logjam?

Regards,
Ganesh Prasad

Posted by prasadgc | Report as abusive

Pakistan: “I quoted Chairman Mao, the great philosopher of our time”

Great philosopher? Do you have any idea what you are talking about? Mao was a tyrant. He is famous for the deaths of close to 25 million Chinese who died due to his experiments. Go read some authentic German references if you do not want to believe my words. On one side you talk about human rights, freedom etc. On the other side you praise those who violated all these norms. You are making absolutely no sense. What exactly is your true belief? How can you claim to be a supporter of human rights when you call a monster like Mao dze Dong a great philosopher?

Posted by KPSingh01 | Report as abusive

Mortal1: “For me, personally, nothing causes more exasperation than a muslim saying that 9/11 was an inside CIA job or that the mumbai attacks were a farce planned by RAW. It tells me that, that particular individual does not care for non-muslim lives.”

And many who demand rights from others are also celebrated when the twin towers fell.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KrM0dAFsZ 8k

Posted by KPSingh01 | Report as abusive

@Ganesh/KPS

Ganesh, Thanks for posting articles on conversion!

@KPS
“Though I do not buy the logic used by Western powers, radical Islam does stand up as their number one enemy today.

***Radical Islam is a danger to Islamic countries as much as it is to the West. There is a need to identify and address the root causes which stop this cycle. History cannot be undone but it certainly can be prevented from being repeated. 9/11 was bad and post-9/11 has been worse. Iraq which saw cruelties from Sadaam saw worse since his fall. Iraq is in chaotic violence and Af-Pak is worse than it was during Taliban/ISI syndicate. I would say Kashmir so far has escaped the attention of majority of radicals, despite what has been happening. Only devoted ones like LeT/JeM are in action there so far. India should watch its own ass and not lose any window of opportunity to see the picture at a bigger level and do something about it.

++++++++++++

Separately, some people here are having free ride on Reuters. How lucky I am to know that Mao, Lao Tzu and Dalai Lama are in the same league!!!

Posted by rehmat | Report as abusive

@Mortal

“For me, personally, nothing causes more exasperation than a muslim saying that 9/11 was an inside CIA job or that the mumbai attacks were a farce planned by RAW. It tells me that, that particular individual does not care for non-muslim lives.”

***If you think about it these are early signs of secular opinion because 35-40 Muslims also died and they still maintain that view!!!

Posted by rehmat | Report as abusive

@Mortal

correction:
In Mumbai, “35-40 Muslims also died” and these individuals still maintain that view.

Posted by rehmat | Report as abusive

Rehmat: “I would say Kashmir so far has escaped the attention of majority of radicals, despite what has been happening. Only devoted ones like LeT/JeM are in action there so far. India should watch its own ass and not lose any window of opportunity to see the picture at a bigger level and do something about it.”

Fully agree here. But any Indian move to settle anything in Kashmir will be negated by vested groups. Let us say India goes in and sets up a plebiscite there (assuming most Indians are on board), the elements in Pakistan will not let that process go through. The reason is simple – these elements have been created and nurtured to take on India not just in Kashmir, but even beyond that. Settling Kashmir is bad news for them. They want Kashmir hostilities to continue for as long as it takes. They care a rat’s rear end for the welfare of Kashmiris or anyone else. Right now Kashmiri Muslims’ protests against India are aligned with their goals. If they see anyone trying to settle matters with India peacefully, they will launch an offensive. Let us not be too naive here. That is probably the reason why India has not removed most of its troops from Kashmir despite the relative peace there compared to the 1990s. There is probably a lot of intelligence information to the Home ministry to avoid making the wrong move. See this link. Everything is organized according to a plan.

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/india  /A-stone-pelter-in-Kashmir-gets-paid-Rs -400-a-week/articlesho/7173104.cms

Right now Kashmir is quiet not because of some revelation to the Pakistani military. They are up to their neck along with their elements tackling the Americans in the neighborhood. It is the American presence that has kept all these elements quiet in Kashmir. Musharraf did try on a few occasions to push and prod Kashmir and did not succeed in it.

I want the Americans to stay in the neighborhood for as long as it takes. This way, these elements will starve to extinction. With the diplomatic row over the American in Pak custody, things are at a tipping point for Pakistan.

There is not much India can do with Kashmiri Muslims who are puppets on a string being manipulated by Pak military. It is a total waste of time and effort. I’d like life to return to normalcy there. However, we are not the only player in the game there. Any move will be met with counter move – be it offensive or diplomatic.

Posted by KPSingh01 | Report as abusive

@KP

You are not startig the snowbal game. I do not have the correct numbers who died on account of long march or thecultural revolution or those who died defending China against Imperial Japan. I must admit I do not have the death umbers caused by Stalin, hitler or Churchal either. For the USA the jury is still out as to the deaths caused by its military. I have only the red book and it tells me the sort of political thinker he was. Reading your post I get the impression that you would like the American military to fight for India, this is something the Americans have never done. They are not sending their lads to die for Indian occupation of Kashmir. In fact this is one thing they a’nt going to do. If you want to protect ancient statues, join the Canadian contingent and rescue whatever is left of them! Alternatively, you could decide to join the world and call for peace. I wish that you would choose the latter.

Rex Minor

Posted by pakistan | Report as abusive

Pakistan: “I have only the red book and it tells me the sort of political thinker he was.”

He was a warped tyrant who was no different than Pol Pot in Kampuchea. Human life had no value for him. Based on your analysis, I guess you would admire Hitler’s “Mein Kampf” too. If Mao is a great philosopher, I wonder what you would call Hitler as! And I am sure he has your admiration because he hated Jews as much as you do in your heart. All this talk of love and peace from your end is empty. Those who love other humans, will not admire someone like Mao. You admire him because his country is on your country’s side right now. In the 1990s when America turned a blind eye to Pakistan’s evil acts, Pakistanis swore by America too. They had a lot of admiration for many of their Republican leaders. Now that America has learned the truth and is trying to do the right thing, you guys have shifted camp and are admiring Mao, the great philosopher despite being a Godless infidel that you people also detest on the other side. You are mixing political alliance with religion, philosophy and so on. In short, you are very confused.

As regards to America fighting on behalf of India, I welcome that. It is their encouragement all these years that have led to China and Pakistan becoming such threatening entities from our perspective. So let them clean up what they have created. We did not involve in the whole game then. We do not have to involve ourselves now. Let the Americans clean up their dog waste in our neighborhood with their own hands. We are going to sit and watch. We only have to make sure that trash does not fall in our direction.

Posted by KPSingh01 | Report as abusive

@KPS

Americans cannot stay for ever, and India and Pakistan cannot go on without solving K-issue. Be it plebescite or back channel talks or genuine/cosmetic moves, something has to be done for Kashmiris. Until 1989, Kashmir was largely doing OK with India. Since 1989 (about 20years) it is worsening, forgetting for a moment who is culprit behind it. Larger the investment of time and energy of Kashmiris, bigger will become the challenge for India.

I am not looking for a 3 party peace solution here immediately but more of a question of can India do better than this for Kashmiris until Pakistan gets its act together. From pre-1989 to now we have traveled quite a bit to reach here. With 20more years I expect the silent Kashmiris to join the crowd. WE know it that such situations never get better just by wishing. Before India is forced to move, India should make a move on its own. Can there be 500Rs/week for youth for not throwing stones? I do not mean literally but in terms of getting Kashmiri youth busy with jobs and stuff to do and enough money. These 20 year old pellet throwers are going to decide next 50 years of Kashmir. I know it is not easy to fix this but we know Indian Center govt can act as mentally retarded sometimes.

Posted by rehmat | Report as abusive

Rehmat,

Your points are genuine. The problem is who gets to bell the cat. We do not know how the Indian public of this generation will react to any softening decision on Kashmir. This generation has grown up believing it is an integral part of India. Any government that lets Kashmir separate from the union will never make it back. There is no grand leader like Gandhi whom the people believed. If Gandhi had been here now and the people respected and loved him as much as they did prior to independence, he would have had the courage to say let Kashmir go and no one would have raised any question. India now has politicians who can sell their mothers if needed. There is hardly any respect for them. Now if they chalk out a settlement, without consulting the Indian public through a referendum, pandemonium will result. In the case of Pakistan, its military decides everything. For them the solution is simple – get Kashmir liberated out of India and that is good enough for now. They are not doing this for the welfare of Kashmiris. Their policy is one dimensional – settle scores with India on any possible matter and watch Indians burn in frustration.

No Indian politicians will dare raise the topic of settling anything in Kashmir. If he or she did, his political career will be over. So all of them will dance around it and do nothing about it. You and I can sit and demand that sensible politicians must do something. Which politician is willing to dig his own grave?

The current generations of Kashmiris have alienated themselves from India already. There is nothing in their hearts that will offer any room for India even as a friendly neighbor. We have another Pakistan created there thanks to the brutal insurgency and counter insurgency. The damage is done. From this angle, their independence is the only way out. The question is how does one achieve that without any long term consequences to Indian leaders, their political careers, and public acceptance from the rest of India. We have taken years to quell down the Hindutva wave. They have run out of ideas. Letting go of Kashmir will give them a new lease of life and they will be back with a vengeance. This time they will target other Muslims in India to enhance their chances.

Thirdly, there is Pakistan in all this. They are looking for any chance to create divisions inside India and widen them up. From their stand point a large Indian nation makes them feel threatened. If India takes the initiative of settling Kashmir, they have enough elements there who would want to deepen that further. This is not an imaginary scenario. And these groups are violent, powerful and have a lot of influence on their policies.

If Pakistan had not interfered so much into Kashmir, it could have been settled long ago. Actually, prior to 1989, Kashmiri Muslims had settled well with India. It was the insurgency that set up the barriers that prevents India from taking any concrete steps there. And it has managed to alienate the public there.

In this circumstance, how can one set up business and jobs there for their youth? Tourism industry has been shut down. Garment industry is down. There is nothing else. No Indian business can set up business there. The boundary conditions are very limiting. How does one go about solving the matter while addressing all the limiting factors at the same time?

And Kashmir has become a geo-strategic region. This means its resolution will come only by means of a terrible war. Diplomacy has not worked. Pakistan has been itching to try its nuclear gloves. This is unfortunate. As I see it, I do not find any solutions that will work. When solutions do not work, war is the final solution. Whether we like it or not, war will bring the final solution. It is unclear who will emerge as the winner in that war. I can say clearly it will not be Kashmiris. That state is going to be reduced to rubble by this war.

I think Indian pundits have realized this inevitable end. As a result, they are keeping the military there at all costs. That could be one reason why they are not seeking any settlement there. Why would anyone set up businesses, jobs etc in a place which is going to bear the brunt of a major war? I am sure they are getting all indications of what is brewing inside Pakistan. At some point it has to explode on the face. India’s strategy might be to wait it out and watch the developments. There is a faint chance that Pakistan can spin out of control and that turmoil might diffuse the tension in Kashmir or backfire. I think it is the gamble our leaders are taking.

Unfortunately, Kashmir will bring the end to a lot of things in South Asia. Only I cannot tell with definite vision which ones will end.

Posted by KPSingh01 | Report as abusive

KP Singh said:

> If Gandhi had been here now and the people respected and loved him as much as they did prior to independence, he would have had the courage to say let Kashmir go and no one would have raised any question.

I’m afraid I must disagree on this, KP. There are even more Godses in India today than in 1948. Gandhi wouldn’t have got very far.

I think India has made a grave tactical mistake in the bargain over Kashmir. If you go to a shop and haggle over something, the shopkeeper will start at Rs. 100, you will start at Rs. 50, then he will come down to Rs. 90 and you will try Rs. 60. Finally you will settle at Rs. 75 and both will go away happy. But if you try to be reasonable and start at Rs. 75, then the shopkeeper will definitely take advantage of what he sees as your foolishness and will then get you to go up to Rs. 85 or even Rs. 90.

This is what India has done. If you notice, AJK and GB are not even on the table anymore, even though the official Indian position (as implied by Indian maps) is that these are part of India. So Pakistan has very understandably taken advantage of this Indian foolishness and now acts as if only IHK (Indian Held Kashmir) is under discussion. Formalising the LoC as the international border is the Rs. 75 solution, but India has committed a tactical blunder by opening the bargaining with Rs. 75, tacitly allowing Pakistan to keep AJK and GB. India should have started with the Rs. 50 gambit, i.e., demand the return of AJK and GB, loudly and at every opportunity. Then the Pakistanis will be happy to settle at Rs. 75 and formalise the LoC. Now they expect at least Rs. 85, which is India giving up the Kashmir Valley.

For all the criticism of India’s “bania” mentality, I’m afraid we don’t have enough of it.

Regards,
Ganesh Prasad

Posted by prasadgc | Report as abusive

@Rehmat: “I would say Kashmir so far has escaped the attention of majority of radicals, despite what has been happening. Only devoted ones like LeT/JeM are in action there so far. India should watch its own ass and not lose any window of opportunity to see the picture at a bigger level and do something about it.”

Couldn’t agree more! The problem here is that the big fat ass of the Indian govt is too slow, lethargic & politically motivated to take quick action in Kashmir, while the window is still open. Economic reforms is the need of the hour in Kashmir. Incentivize & subsidize investments by companies like Tata, Reliance, Infosys etc., put the kashmiri youth to work & they will drop the bricks over time.

Posted by Mortal1 | Report as abusive

Ganesh,

You have completely ignored the carefully planned proxy war that Pakistan staged and succeeded in Kashmir over almost 15 years. This was the main reason for thing to tilt against India. There was no room for any bargains. If India had started an insurgency inside AJK to counter Pakistan’s indirect offensive, along with other in roads in other parts of Pakistan, from a strategic stand point, India could have handled Kashmir better. Unfortunately at that time too the USA was on the opposite camp and it did not allow India to make any counter moves.

I have no problem in Kashmir going on its own. I respect the will of the people. But it has to be a free will. It is not something that is induced on them by building up their frustrations. See this link:

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/india  /We-not-India-killed-our-own-people-Hur riyat-leader/articleshow/7210759.cms

We are falling into the hands of wily Pakistani military’s trap. Right now it is busy keeping its assets hidden and dodging the Americans. Its attention is fully on that side. And that has given some relief to the Kashmir. We do not know what exactly is going on. We have no access to intelligence reports that Home ministry gets on a regular basis. There must be a reason why India has not pulled out our military from Kashmir and why it is being made to appear brutal by carefully orchestrated campaign.

I want security perimeter around our country. That is the most important thing for me. From that stand point backing out of Kashmir now will be suicidal. Especially at this time. Kashmiris have been so alienated that any move from the Indian side will be looked at with suspicion. It is easy to say businesses should be set up there. Which businessman will dare venture there and set up his business? Who is investing in Pakistan today? Do even countries want to play cricket there? For businesses to come in and set up shop the locals have to tone down their militant attitude and help build confidence. They need to do their part as well. I don’t blame them. They are severely hurt. Many of their youth have disappeared or have died. When such anger and attitude is built up, no business can flourish there. For that matter no business flourishes even in states like West Bengal and Kerala. Their people have cross migrated everywhere and have learned to survive. Are Kashmiris being prevented from working elsewhere in India? Why can’t they send their youth outside to work in mainland India? That way they can get to see for themselves that no one hates them. They can be reassured about the myth of Muslims being victims of Hindus. A lot can be done. But people have to seek a way out first. Govt of India can set up job quota for Kashmiris in Indian administrative services and other available opportunities. Kashmiris should be inducted into Indian military.

Reliance, Tata, Birla etc can help them if Kashmiris seek jobs outside their states. Or they can set up something to get these youths more opportunities. They have stayed isolated and do not want to venture out. They need to be persuaded to come in and mix with Indian mainstream. UP has more Muslims than Kashmir. They are not demanding a separate nation. We can’t afford to keep on dividing anymore. You guys are so terrified by the thought of Pakistan splitting up. Imagine what one cut up of India will do at this time.

Govt of India can think of ways to provide Kashmiris opportunities inside India for sure. In that regard they have sat on their fat rear ends. But Kashmir, like Afghanistan, is an extremely geo-strategic location for India at this time. That is the reason why Pakistan is trying everything to drive us out of both places.

Posted by KPSingh01 | Report as abusive

This campaign happened just a few days ago when the secretary level talks were being set up at Thimpu.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NeO-i3y0_ sQ&NR=1&feature=fvwp

All you liberal Indians should not ignore this reality. There are different groups inside Pakistan with different goals and agendas. We have to hold on to our grip and wait. Right now the public mood in Kashmir is not favorable to India. And India does not have any chance of building bridges there at this time. We have to wait for things to calm down. Fact finding mission has gone there and their recommendations will need to be assessed. Kashmir should have been settled in the 1950s. This is the wrong time to settle it. I definitely do not want two hostile nations sitting on the same side of the border with a bigger monster backing them up. We cannot ignore geo-strategic reasons currently. This stalemate will only end in a war and the war will offer a solution to all parties. I see no other way out.

Posted by KPSingh01 | Report as abusive

KP Singh said:

> You have completely ignored the carefully planned proxy war that Pakistan staged and succeeded in Kashmir over almost 15 years.

Not at all. I’m saying that irrespective of what has happened in the past, India has not been very smart about managing the terms of the current Kashmir debate. If indeed the demand of the Kashmiris is Azadi, why aren’t the Pakistanis acting embarrassed about their occupation of AJK and GB? Surely it’s not just India that’s the occupier?

It’s a massive PR failure on the part of the Indian government that Pakistan is able to act like the wronged party and purports to speak on behalf of the Kashmiris when it stands equally guilty of denying sovereignty to the Kashmiris.

India needs some bold leadership that can put adversaries on the defensive.

1. Pakistan must be made to feel that any further escalation of the Kashmir issue will result in the formation of an independent Republic of Kashmir, with them losing the territories of AJK and GB. They will claim not to mind, but if it looms credibly, I’ll bet they will quietly opt for formalising the LoC instead. Nobody likes to lose territory for the sake of another, as the Arabs’ thus-far-and-no-further support for the Palestinians shows.

2. Kashmiris must be made to realise that any further agitation will see their little paradise pushed out of India into the arms of an imploding Pakistan. They read newspapers, too, I’m sure, and should have no illusions about their welcome in a “pluralistic” society where one had better be Sunni and Punjabi or else. Army heavyhandedness needs to be tackled for sure, but ingratitude also needs to be shown up.

3. China must be made to realise that if Arunachal Pradesh can be called South Tibet, then the question of Tibet itself is also up for discussion. Stapled visas can be issued by anyone! Aksai Chin and the territory ceded by Pakistan should be brought up regularly and used for bargaining. The Chinese are hypersensitive about certain topics, and India must keeping harping on them till they get the message.

Will the Indian government grow some spine? Even the Pakistanis will respect us more if we don’t appear like fools and wimps. Some bold and imaginative bargaining is required to settle all issues. Adversaries also grow less greedy and more realistic in the face of strength, and they’ll also go away satisfied with much less. But I guess this is as pathetic a hope as the Pakistanis who pray for Imran Khan to come to power!

Regards,
Ganesh Prasad

Posted by prasadgc | Report as abusive

@KP
I am not going to keep on repeating my views of the world. right at this moment the German parlimenterans are debating the developments in egypt. One of the meers from the socialist party complained that German people have been misled by friendly Govts that Islamists and Islamic parties represnt terrorism.

Let me also say that xenophobia was present throughout Europe( and still exist) during ww2 was not the speciality of German people. Hitler was the most popular leader in Ausria and Germany and was popularly elected as a Chancellor of Germany.
PK, I like Wagner .but not his antijewish writings about jewish people in Germany. I am not reuired to jugge others since I shall be judged. I do however, protest against injustice in our world.

There has been a recent awakening among the Europeans in terms of democracy cry fom the so called muslim counries. You guys have been going in circles about Kashmir issue and despite your sincerety you show reluctance to concede the right of self determination to kashmiri people.

Rex Minor

Posted by pakistan | Report as abusive

Rex Minor said:

> You guys have been going in circles about Kashmir issue and despite your sincerety you show reluctance to concede the right of self determination to kashmiri people.

Nonsense! Don’t you read what we write here? We’re only commenting about Pakistani double-standards here. India is not the only country occupying Kashmir territory. Pakistan is also in occupation of a sizeable chunk of Kashmir (Azad Jammu-Kashmir (AJK) and Gilgit-Baltistan (GB)). And China occupies the rest.

Have a look at the map on Shabir Choudhry’s blog:
http://bit.ly/ePxJZZ

Only the red part is occupied by India. Do you see how big the green and yellow parts are? The brown area was “gifted” by Pakistan to China. China also occupied part of Kashmir after defeating India in a border war in 1962 (the blue part).

Can you see? Less than half of Kashmir (by area) is under Indian control. Why don’t you take Pakistan and China to task for not conceding the right to self-determination to the Kashmiri people, eh? They occupy the majority of Kashmiri territory.

(As usual though, I don’t expect an honest answer from you, only more fact-fudging and stomach-based opinions. But try and be honest for a change.)

Regards,
Ganesh Prasad

Posted by prasadgc | Report as abusive

@Umair
“I agree, Muslims must demonstrate the Islamic values to the non muslims. And those values are, peace, tolerance, brotherhood, equality, unity etc alms for poor etc. We must rather emphasize on these values to remove negative stereotypes.”

Good. Now tell me when this does not happen and IS not happening in quite a few parts of the world then who is to blame and who should improve?? Non-Muslims (Kaafirs)??

And how about answering Ganesh’s question above (although he asked Rex for honest answer) but I think you can sometimes be more honest (when you are not emotional)?

@Ganesh
Next time Rex puts up rubbish then just push some google search for some crap terms, down his throat to shut him up.

@Rex
Yes only oneself can tell if oneself is dumb or not BUT there are exceptions to every rule. In your case anyone can tell you are a moron dumb fool for considering google search numbers as a measure of things.

Posted by 777xxx777 | Report as abusive

There is one thing that Kashmiri Muslims can do. And no one will be able to stand up to them. If they watched the events in Egypt, they can all walk into the streets without resorting to violence and start throwing flowers at the Indian soldiers. If they get beaten or shot, take it and keep up the non-violent resistance. Every soldier has a heart. When they see that the protesters are non-violent and demand only independence, the world will watch. Only tears will fall. India will have no face to stop this protest. It will be forced to make the deal and get the hell out of Kashmir. Can they do it? If they did, I will salute them.

I keep saying that I am against using religion as a reason for dividing nations. I still stick with that belief. But if people use non-violent means to demand what they want, my principle can take a back seat and my first priority will be to honor them and offer their wish. I have argued for geo-strategic reasons in the region. But my first priority is people’s will. If they demand peacefully, they will get what they demand. Then it is up to them to manage the consequences that would follow.

Under the current circumstances, what I have suggested is the only way Kashmiris can solve their own problems.

If they resort to violence because they believe in it, then they will face the barrel of the gun.

Posted by KPSingh01 | Report as abusive

Ganesh: “It’s a massive PR failure on the part of the Indian government that Pakistan is able to act like the wronged party and purports to speak on behalf of the Kashmiris when it stands equally guilty of denying sovereignty to the Kashmiris.”

Right from the time of independence, there is one area in which Pakistan has defeated India – diplomatic skills. India has government bureaucrats who lack people skills. In the past they were arrogant, snobbish and rude to the core. Krishna Menon exemplified it. He really kept taking stabs at the Americans at the beginning. Pakistan did not have the experience at diplomacy at the start. But without any experience, they charmed everyone. It has continued to this day. Westerners have fallen for their hospitality and diplomacy. Their attitude towards Indian diplomats is the exact opposite. India has been very poor at PR skills. Charm can work like magic. There is no awareness in India even today that one has to hide emotions and provide comfort to the other party to make a gain on diplomatic issues. Most Indians do not even smile at others. This is something one realizes when he makes a trip to countries like US and Canada. People do not look through others. Diplomacy starts at that level and goes all the way to the top.

Pakistan’s nuclear program through clandestine means was achieved using the same charm. And they have unleashed the same diplomatic skills to push India on the defensive and made it look like the villain, in regards to Kashmir. One thing they do is relentless campaign, filled with a lot of lies. But consistency pays in the end. They go very unanimous in this campaign, especially on any matter related to India. Look at how the Pakistanis and their supporters here deal with us. They repeat the same thing again and again. If you convince them with facts, they go silent. Again after sometime they repeat the same thing. Lying convincingly is an art. Watch Musharraf videos and you will see how he manages to pull out one lie after another and dodges poking questions.

Posted by KPSingh01 | Report as abusive

KP,

Pakistani diplomats can be as charming as they want to be but ultimately the world has realized that a liar is a liar, despite being charming & pleasant to the eyes. IMO, it started with the Kargil war, when Pakistan’s lies was first exposed in the eyes of the world & they have been continuously getting exposed & embaarassed since then, whether it’s their double dealing in the war in Af-Pak or their denials during the Mumbai attacks. In fact, all their lying has gotten them in a situation where even some of their truth is not accepted as such, anymore.

Posted by Mortal1 | Report as abusive

@KP
You have a good read of history and have the ability to learn to read the future history(tobe written), which some call it vision. When you are successful, then tell us what the future actions of the antagonists in the Asian subcontinent are going to be?

Ganesh, Sorry you have shown your biased part too often! It is very difficult for you to admit that only Kashmiris have the right to decide their own future! No one else, neither India nor Pakistan and certainly not China which you have decided to drag in! People not territory decides the future. The whole of the western world have come out for the first time in my living memory that only the Egyptian people have the right to decide, what their future is going to be. Turkey has become the symbol of democrcy for the Egyptians, muslims and coptics as well as other minoriies.

GW was the only one who came out on this blog and agreed that only the Kashmiris should be allowed to decide what they want for their future! None of you guys supported him and this is sad when you indicate that some of you are living in the west and believe in secular democracies.

I do not blame those who live in India or Pakistan and have a restricted view of the world still based on territory, geo. strategic considrations etc. The real world has moved on and the colonialists have just about lost evrything, except for a number of few outposts(bases) which some are still trying to hang on to!

There is no need to get involved in the detective work, perhaps one of these days,I may call on you. Australia is not foreign for me nor are the outskirts of sydney.

Rex Minor

Posted by pakistan | Report as abusive

@G Prasad

I have looked at the map in Shabir chaudry blog and also read his rhetoic: Can one take this guy seriously?

I was not aware that Kashmiris living in the so called Azad Kashmir or the Inian occupied terrotory could travel on some sort of a Kashmiri document. I was also not aware that Azad Kashmir leaders can just cross over to the other side of Kashmir without any docmets? Is he not aware that most of the so called Pakistanis living in the UK are of Kashmiri origin, the refugees from Kashmr who were granted Pakistani Passports at their requests enabling them to travel to the UK after the indian take over of their country? Do you consider this guy’s writing should be taken seiously?

Does he mean that the Kashmir divide does not apply to kashmiris?

Rex Minor

Posted by pakistan | Report as abusive

Rex Minor,

Again, I don’t know if you deliberately fail to understand a simple point.

Is either Azad Kashmir or Gilgit-Baltistan an independent country? No.

Who occupies Azad Kashmir and Gilgit-Baltistan? Pakistan.

If the people of Azad Kashmir and Gilgit-Baltistan are to be allowed to decide their future, who stands in the way? Pakistan.

So, why do you focus your attention only on Indian-held Kashmir? Can you also direct a question at Pakistan?

Even-handedness and lack of double-standards are all that are being asked for.

Or is the distinction between “believers” and “non-believers” the crucial one?

> Sorry you have shown your biased part too often!

The biases of every poster here are open to all to see, my friend! Throwing stones from inside a glass house isn’t advisable.

Regards,
Ganesh Prasad

Posted by prasadgc | Report as abusive

Rex Minor said:

> perhaps one of these days,I may call on you. Australia is not foreign for me nor are the outskirts of sydney.

That’s good. Perhaps many of these misunderstandings in writing can be sorted out by talking face-to-face.

Regards,
Ganesh Prasad

Posted by prasadgc | Report as abusive

@”Is he not aware that most of the so called Pakistanis living in the UK are of Kashmiri origin, the refugees from Kashmr who were granted Pakistani Passports at their requests enabling them to travel to the UK after the indian take over of their country? Do you consider this guy’s writing should be taken seiously?”
Posted by pakistan

How many times will you keep twisting facts to support your ill-informed arguments?

FYI, more than half of the Pakistani population in Britain is from Mirpur (in Pakistan occupied Kashmir). These so-called Kasmiris began emigrating from Pakistan after the completion of Mangla Dam in Mirpur in the late 1950s. The completion of the dam led to the destruction of hundreds of villages and stimulated a large wave of migration. Many of Mirpur’s inhabitants left for Britain & they were given legal and financial assistance by the British contractor which had built the dam. I say “so-called Kashmiris” because most ethnic Kashmiris do not consider Mirpuri people to be Kashmiris as Mirpur is a former Punjabi District with an ethnic Punjabi population that had no geographic or historic link to Kashmir until the treaty of Amritsar in 1846.

Posted by Mortal1 | Report as abusive

@UmairPK

Now the zombies are out. We are apparently not talking about 1947 Kashmir, but 1847 Kashmir! Poor Kashmiris, the day for their freedom is not yet there. The Kashmiris who were compelled to save their lives and took refuge in other parts of the world, are no longer regarded Kashmiris by the zombies. Too bad for letting the construction of Mangla Dam and letting their old town go to sleep under water. Mirpur is after all called a Little Britain, and most of the Mirpuris hold dual nationalities, therefore technicaly speaking should’nt their territory be claimed back by the Brits.
not a bad solution, this could enable the kashmiris to get themselves rid of Indian military. This is a novel approach, not different from the novel approach of the Egyptians approach. We are facing turbulance times.

We just have to wait. 2011 is the year for the suppressed muslims to gain their independence and I am prepared to place my bet on this! There is a saying among Arabs that those who believe in God and have been told to pray five times a day, are also promised that GOD will listen to their prayers and their enemy would meet its destruction.

Rex Minor

Posted by pakistan | Report as abusive

@”UmairPK, Now the zombies are out. We are apparently not talking about 1947 Kashmir, but 1847 Kashmir! Poor Kashmiris, the day for their freedom is not yet there ” Posted by pakistan

If you have a problem with what I said, be man enough to address it directly to me rather than to Umair, like a gossipy old woman (which I think you actually are).
You commented that most Kashmiris from Pakistan moved to the UK after “India took over their land” & I refuted your lie with the fact that India had nothing to do with and that their migration was due to the building of Mangla dam. The origin of mirpuris was a side lesson for you because (factual) knowledge is something which you seem to be desperately in need of.

Posted by Mortal1 | Report as abusive

I’m actually quite relieved now, because I was beginning to think there was something wrong in my arguments, and that was why they were constantly failing to convince. When even a Kashmiri Muslim like Shabir Choudhry is not to be taken seriously (because he says things on his blog that our friend Rex doesn’t agree with), then of course none of us can hope to be called anything other than zombies. The only acceptable arguments are those that he already agrees with! Facts that disagree with his pre-existing opinions are to be simply discarded.

Maybe a better Latin name for Rex Minor would be Mens Claustra (closed mind)…

Regards,
Ganesh Prasad

Posted by prasadgc | Report as abusive

Pakistan: “You have a good read of history and have the ability to learn to read the future history(tobe written), which some call it vision. When you are successful, then tell us what the future actions of the antagonists in the Asian subcontinent are going to be?”

People will always be at odds with each other. If it is not this issue, it will be that issue. Most national borders today were defined by colonial regimes of the past. They have created only more problems than any solutions. One thing to look at in the future would be to redefine these borders according to our times and circumstances. This means, a couple of generations later, they will have to be redefined again. It is not worth killing others for the sake of artificial boundaries. The course should be to make artificial borders less significant and allow people to migrate and move around at will based on their needs. Policing would only be required to track criminals and confine them. When great empires existed in the sub-continent and elsewhere in the past, people could move in and out of the borders without any issues. There were no passports, visas and all that kind of nonsense. Empires fought each other for territorial claims, but they left the people out of them. And such claims were exclusively for collecting taxes and getting soldiers for their armies.

In fact, inside a big country like India, there are states with borders. But they are not separate countries. People can move around anywhere based on their needs. They can apply to any college across the whole union and travel anywhere they like. They do not need passports or visas to go across the state borders. Criminals are still there and there is a police system to take care of them. So why not extend this further? Why do countries have to exist with rigidly drawn boundaries, soldiers to protect them, flags to salute, wage wars to defend them and divide people from the same family on either side? Look at North and South Korea? For whose benefit are these entities created? Kim Jong? or the people? Why are 500000 soldiers staring at each other at the Korean border that divides the same people?

You will realize that borders and nations were created for the benefit of a few – those who get to control others and resource movement. The Colonial empires fought each other everywhere to exploit wealth and resources. So they carved out borders to keep their competitors from stepping into their treasure troves. There is no need for those empires now. When resources are shared, artificially created borders lead to conflicts and loss of lives.

We all should work towards a modern world where borders are created merely for administrative purposes like states within a country. Immigration laws, passports, visas etc have been created by Western powers to keep others out of the wealth that they have managed to get ahead of others. The world is bursting at its seam with population that has been confined within artificially created borders for the benefit of a set of small minority groups. If such borders go away, militaries will disappear. Only local police and administrators will be needed. This is the eventual state the world needs to get to in the future. It will happen, much like the world becoming flat today through commercial needs. This planet has to become one nation before humans try their hands on other planets to populate.

In about 500 years, what I have said will become a necessity and reality. What we see today is only a temporary status of adjustment between humans in a rapidly changing environment.

Posted by KPSingh01 | Report as abusive

@”I’m actually quite relieved now, because I was beginning to think there was something wrong in my arguments, and that was why they were constantly failing to convince.” Posted by prasadgc

It’s quite clear that this character, deliberately goes out of his way to ignore the facts which refute his ill-informed preconceived notions & expose his “stomach based” nonsense. He simply does not have the moral courage & integrity to challenge his ignorance & bigotry.

Posted by Mortal1 | Report as abusive

Mortal1: “It’s quite clear that this character, deliberately goes out of his way to ignore the facts which refute his ill-informed preconceived notions & expose his “stomach based” nonsense. He simply does not have the moral courage & integrity to challenge his ignorance & bigotry”

This guy is not alone. Most Pakistanis seem to be of the same mentality – deny, negate anything that does not agree with their vision. Facts or not, what they believe is only correct. The rest can be recited into deaf ears. This is the sign of a society getting walls closed around it. Ignorance will at some point blind them and they will be pushed into doing the wrong thing because of their own built in paranoia and could justify their actions based on it.

Posted by KPSingh01 | Report as abusive

First off, let me correct the combination of Allah, America and Army. It is no longer being applied. Its now America, Arabs and Army.

While looking at Pakistan, we must remember that extremism, militancy and terrorism have both ideological and socio-economic dimensions. We fought the Afghan Jihad in the 80′s but there were no signs of extremism, militancy and terrorism in the 90′s. These emerged in the 2000′s after 9/11 episode.

There is a good deal of confusion about the existence of Tehreek-e-Taliban Pakistan (TTP). It appears to have no physical existence as it has no headquarters in Pakistan. Nor has it branches or operational units any where in Pakistan. It is believed to be an umbrella of a movement of 10 or so militant groups operating for their own ideological affiliations. It does not seem to be affiliated with the Taliban of Afghanistan.

We cannot rule out the possibility of TTP label being used by criminal, ethnic and sectarian outfits.

Besides the ideological dimension, we must not forget that Pakistan is overwhelmingly poor. Its riches are confined to just 5% of its total population of 180 million. One-third of its population lives below the poverty line. Its lower classes, below and above the poverty line, are suffocating with inflation, unemployment, and poverty. These teeming millions are deprived of their basic socio-economic rights. They do not have access to clean drinking water, health, education, electricity, gas and other amenities.

With bulging gap between the haves and the havnots are destroying the Unity, Faith, and Discipline of the whole society.

What Pakistan needs today and, needs direly and urgently, is a complete overhaul of its economic, social, political, legal and judicial systems. We are still living with 200-year old British laws and a lot many conflicting laws conceived during the last sixty years of civilian-military rule.

Pakistan has tremendous potential for growth and prosperity. It has been blessed with every thing like the land, sea, rivers, four seasons, manpower, mineral resources, natural gas and petroleum, coal reserves, gold and silver mines and over seven million overseas Pakistanis sending home USD 10 billions and above every year.

Pakistan can progress and prosper ONLY with good governance in the country free from corruption and endowed with rule of law, rule of merit and rule of accountability. It should not take Pakistan more than 10 years to stabilize the economic, social, and political strata for a major take-off.

Mumtaz A. Piracha
Founder/Chairman
Good Governance Forum
email: good.governance@gmail.com
web: http://www.goodgovernanceforum.com
–Leading the Way to the Challenge of Change in Pakistan

Posted by goodgovernance | Report as abusive