On U.S.-Taliban talks, look at 2014 and work back

February 19, 2011

arghandab3According to Steve Coll in the New Yorker, the United States has begun its first direct talks with the Taliban to see whether it is possible to reach a political settlement to the Afghan war.  He writes that after the Sept. 11 2001 attacks on New York and Washington the United States rejected direct talks with Taliban leaders, on the grounds that they were as much to blame for terrorism as Al Qaeda. However, last year, he says, a small number of officials in the Obama administration—among them the late Richard Holbrooke, the special representative for Afghanistan and Pakistan—argued that it was time to try talking to the Taliban again.

“Holbrooke’s final diplomatic achievement, it turns out, was to see this advice accepted. The Obama Administration has entered into direct, secret talks with senior Afghan Taliban leaders, several people briefed about the talks told me last week. The discussions are continuing; they are of an exploratory nature and do not yet amount to a peace negotiation.”

I had heard the same thing some time ago — from an official source who follows Afghanistan closely – that the Americans and the Taliban were holding face-to-face talks for the first time.  He said the talks were not yet ”at a decision-making level” but involved Taliban representatives who would report back to the leadership.  There has been no official confirmation.

And given that the idea of holding talks with the Taliban has been on the diplomatic agenda for a year, you would probably expect to see the various parties involved in the conflict sounding each other out – though diplomats say that in the first half of last year it was hard to get negotiations moving without the direct involvement of the Americans.  By the second half of 2010 the Americans had given greater endorsement to talks, leading — according to the source I spoke to — to direct talks beginning towards the end of the year.  

In a speech to the Asia Society on Friday, U.S. Secretary of State Hillary Clinton said Washington was “launching a diplomatic surge to move this conflict toward a political outcome that shatters the alliance between the Taliban and al-Qaeda, ends the insurgency, and helps to produce not only a more stable Afghanistan but a more stable region.”

“As military pressure escalates, more insurgents may begin looking for alternatives to violence. And not just low-level fighters. Both we and the Afghans believe that the security and governance gains produced by the military and civilian surges have created an opportunity to get serious about a responsible reconciliation process, led by Afghans and supported by intense regional diplomacy and strong U.S.-backing.”

“Now, I know that reconciling with an adversary that can be as brutal as the Taliban sounds distasteful, even unimaginable. And diplomacy would be easy if we only had to talk to our friends. But that is not how one makes peace. President Reagan understood that when he sat down with the Soviets. And Richard Holbrooke made this his life’s work. He negotiated face-to-face with (former Serbian president) Milosevic and ended a war.”

Pakistan has been pushing hard for talks on a political settlement in Afghanistan which would force al Qaeda to leave the region. A senior Pakistani security  official said in December that Washington needed to identify “end conditions” in Afghanistan, rather than setting preconditions for talks that insurgents renounce al Qaeda, give up violence and respect the Afghan constitution. He suggested instead a process in which violence was brought down, insurgents renounced al Qaeda, and a consensus then negotiated on a future Afghan constitution.

Pakistan army chief General Ashfaq Kayani also gave a detailed letter to President Barack Obama late last year on how Pakistan viewed Afghanistan. According to one western official who had seen the letter,  the ideas put forward had not been rejected, but were being studied carefully.

So it’s interesting to see that both Britain and the United States are now talking about outcomes for talks with insurgents, rather than preconditions.

According to Clinton, ” Over the past two years, we have laid out our unambiguous red lines for reconciliation with the insurgents: They must renounce violence; they must abandon their alliance with al-Qaeda; and they must abide by the constitution of Afghanistan. Those are necessary outcomes of any negotiation.”

A senior British Foreign Office official, talking last month, made the same point. She said requirements the insurgents renounce al Qaeda, give up violence and respect the Afghan constitution applied to a settlement rather than to the opening of talks. “These are not preconditions for talks,” she said.

And many Afghan experts have long argued that the Taliban could be separated from al Qaeda through a political settlement — most recently in this report by Kandahar-based researchers Alex Strick van Linschoten and Felix Kuehn.

However, whatever happens with talks, this will be a very slow process with a great deal of room to go wrong. The Taliban itself has publicly rejected talks, and as van Linschoten and Kuehn noted in their report, the ramped-up U.S.-led military campaign in Afghanistan may be fragmenting the insurgency and creating a new generation of younger, more radicalised leaders less open to a peace deal

For now, both the United States and Britain argue that the military strategy is succeeding in bringing the Taliban to the negotiating table — a calculation that, if wrong, could mean that by the time substantial negotiations get under way, the leadership no longer has the authority to deliver.

And as I noted here, the aim of the current “talks about talks” is not to strike a peace deal overnight, but rather to lay the groundwork so as to reach a final phase by 2014 when the United States and its allies say they will withdraw their troops.

The United States and the Taliban never understood each other when the Taliban were in power in Afghanistan from 1996 to 2001.  In his New Yorker article, Coll quotes a story about how Taliban leader Mullah Omar made a cold call to the State Department in 1998. “The United States had just lobbed cruise missiles at Al Qaeda camps in his nation. Omar got a mid-level diplomat on the line and spoke calmly. He suggested that Congress force President Bill Clinton to resign. He said that American military strikes ‘would be counter-productive’, and would ‘spark more, not less, terrorist attacks’, according to a declassified record of the call. ‘Omar emphasized that this was his best advice,’ the record adds.  That was the first and last time that Omar spoke to an American government official, as far as is known.”

The Taliban, by many accounts, vastly misjudged the likely U.S. reaction after the Sept. 11 attacks, when they refused to hand over al Qaeda leader Osama bin Laden for trial without clear evidence of his involvement.

So both sides need time just to learn how to talk to each other, not so much because of language differences, but because of cultural differences (though that process may have started in one of the many parallel tracks of Afghan diplomacy with former Taliban ambassador to Islamabad Mullah Abdul Salaam Zaeef visiting London this month.

And the substantial issues for talks lie ahead.

How will the Taliban be expected to break with al Qaeda? And where would al Qaeda remnants go once, or if, they are — to use Clinton’s words “on the run”?  With uprisings and protests across the Middle East and North Africa, few would want to introduce another element of instability right now if al Qaeda members filtered back into Egypt, where they have their ideological roots, Yemen, where it has a strong presence via Al Qaeda in the Arabian Peninsula (AQAP), or North Africa, home to Al Qaeda in the Islamic Maghreb (AQIM).

How far would former Taliban leaders be included in the political process in Afghanistan?  I hear mixed reports on what could be an acceptable compromise. One official said that the Taliban should not be compared to a national liberation movement – opinion polls, though unreliable in a war zone, tend to suggest they do not enjoy widespread support in Afghanistan.  So a power-sharing deal would offer them far greater legitimacy than they deserve — or so the argument goes. The  counter-argument, which I have heard from another offiicial, is that the Taliban do not believe that it is up to the Americans and their allies to dictate how Afghanistan should be run.

Then you have the issue of whether the Taliban would be expected to owe allegiance to the existing constitution — which few seem to like much, in part because it is so over-centralised, but are also unwilling to ditch without a better alternative.

A major cause of suspicion — not just in Afghanistan but among other regional players including Iran and Russia – is that the United States might seek permanent military bases in the country even after it pulls out most of its troops in 2014. Clinton, echoing comments made by Obama in 2009, said that, ” we do not seek any permanent American military bases in their country or a presence that would be a threat to any of Afghanistan’s neighbors.”  However,  the increasing size of American bases in Afghanistan give pause for thought.

We also do not know what would happen to the current government in the event of a political settlement – though it’s worth noting that President Hamid Karzai’s term ends in 2014. If you wanted a political settlement which allowed the former Taliban leadership into government in some form, that could be the time to do it – if, and that is a huge if, conditions are right at the time.

And we do not know how the Pashtun Taliban might be reconciled with the non-Pashtun members of the former Northern Alliance, which fought the Islamist movement when it was in power in Kabul.

So in the short-term don’t expect a breakthrough. Look for progress on smaller confidence-building issues – including the release of prisoners, and taking Taliban names off the UN blacklist - to see whether the talks about talks are making any progress.  And as is the case in any peace process worldwide, expect spoilers at every stage from anyone who might stand to gain more out of war than peace.

Comments

Afghanistan cannot be analysed or solved in isolation. The stability of an Afghan peace agreement depends on the stability of its external environment, specifically the balance of power between various adversarial power-brokers, such as Pakistan and Iran, and to a lesser extent, China, India and Russia. Uzbekistan and Tajikistan may also be important players.

I see a dramatic downward shift in Pakistan’s power over the next 5 years, thanks mainly to severe economic mismanagement. They will face severe guns-versus-butter issues over the next year itself because of spreading hunger, and will have to downsize their military power to avoid dealing with food riots. External funding to help them avoid this trade-off will be harder to come by. They cannot continue to maintain the influence that they currently have. The math doesn’t hold up.

So I don’t believe any Afghan peace deal will hold, because once a crucial power-broker suffers a sharp decline in its influence, the others will begin to jostle for greater influence and end up abrogating all treaties signed earlier. To be specific, I don’t believe Afghanistan will stabilise until Pakistan itself arrives at a new (and necessarily lower) equilibrium.

Regards,
Ganesh Prasad

Posted by prasadgc | Report as abusive
 

On first look, the idea of US talking with Taliban may look outlandish. But on closer examination, this will make much more sense than depending on Pakistan army, which hasn’t worked anyways.

Posted by netizen | Report as abusive
 

The best thing to do would be to split Afghanistan into two parts – Pashtun dominated South and non-Pashtun North. No matter what the outcome of the US-Taliban negotiations are, the two sides (Northern Alliance and Pashtuns) will clash as soon as the US leaves the region. Al Qaeda will capitalize on this situation. India will align with Northern alliance and Pakistan will ally with Pashtuns.

What should have happened in 2001 is this – the US should have bombed the day lights out of Afghanistan, driven the Taliban and Al Qaeda and allowed Northern Alliance to take over Afghanistan. Then they should have used the Northern Alliance as the proxy to take on Taliban/ Al Qaeda and Pakistan. With drones, the US could have caused further restrictions on the Taliban from staging counter conflicts against non-Pashtuns. Once in a while cruise missiles could have been launched from the Persian gulf to knock out Taliban/Al Qaeda camps and support bases. This way, without wetting its hands, the US could have driven the war to their advantage. The Northern Alliance is as ruthless as the Taliban and no one would have had to put up a benevolent and diplomatic face in staging this conflict.

The US should have learned from the Russians – do not engage directly in this region. Proxy methods really work.

Now if the US leaves, it must be intelligent enough to set up proxies that will act on their behalf and keep the Taliban contained. And it will prevent Al Qaeda from gaining ground again. And the groups will be constantly engaged against each other, leaving the rest of the world alone.

It is still not too late. Northern Alliance makes up the majority of Afghan army now. Simply power could be handed off to Northern Alliance and the nation will divide itself naturally between Pashtuns and non-Pashtuns. It is important to keep these elements engaged with each other. Pakistan will not be able to set up camp in Afghanistan when the place is in conflict. And Pakistan can be prevented by coercive means to stop repeating its mistakes done in 1995.

There is no way any settlement will work here with tribals having grown up in conflict all their lives. They will never settle down.

Posted by KPSingh01 | Report as abusive
 

As an analogy of my recommendation above, look at what the imperialist Britain did – they set up a proxy in Pakistan that was created to keep India perpetually engaged in conflict and thus not allowed to rise against their interests. It has worked. Unfortunately it has led to the sub-continent vulnerable to complete destruction.

But that seems to be the only way from a geo-strategic stand point. The US should think of setting up proxies so that the elements are contained within this region in perpetuity. It is a selfish act, but it works. As time goes on, these groups will tire of the conflicts and come to their own settlement, which might be better than what the US is recommending.

Posted by KPSingh01 | Report as abusive
 

The strategic objective of American effort is control. It is a constant that is visible to perceptive. Sometimes it is direct military occupation, and at other times economic and financial. So in case of Afghanistan, it is direct occupation. It is costly and politically untenable.
The next step is to put the forces is in military bases, already being built. This requires an agreement from Afghan government. The only party in Afghanistan supporting this arrangement is Tajik factions and also India from outside. Now that is an iffy proposition.
Now Pakistan has been going around looking for solution with the help of Saudis, then UAE, Iran, Turkey and in each case Americans decided not to support any forward movement. The last one was a group of Afghan notables who visited Islamabad sometimes back. These efforts without American participation really angered them. Since then the Americans have been after Pakistan to take them down couple of notches. Raymond Davis is one of the actors involved in this effort.
This rumor of direct talks with Taliban with Mulla Zaeef is not worth much. He has been living in Kabul for a long time after his release from Gitmo. What can he deliver? It would create one more Taliban faction to deal with.

Posted by Matrixx | Report as abusive
 

Pakistan has to look for its own interesr, exert maximum influence in Afghanistan and curtail India’s foot print there. Also, keep Afghanistan united and cohesive, not let the northern alliance proxies split the country and flame the already 30 year old civil war. We need to see an end to this conflict, not to start another war.
As for the USA, they will have to clarify their strategy and let it be public where do they stand. Without clear objectives, this will be a defeat worse thaqn Vietnam .

Posted by Umairpk | Report as abusive
 

KPSingh

Your suggestions on Afghanistan are very foolish, you don’t even know what u r talking about. The favourite pass time for Afghans is fighting. When they are at war, they fight with outside invaders. When they are at peace, they fight among each other to sharpen their skills. You don’t really have good options on the table to deal with such a warrior nation. And forget about using them as proxies, they don’t know how to take orders, they simply are not used to it. They are proud and fircely independent, recklessly bold people.

Posted by Umairpk | Report as abusive
 

The favourite pass time for Afghans is fighting
==

It may be their favorite past time. You forgot to mention the ONLY past times of pakistanis has been war mongering, terrorism, militarism for 64 years. Afghans may have other pass times, but pakistanis don’t.

It is futile on your part to try portraying Afghans are savages, and you are some sort of guardian angels.

The interests of Afghans, India,Iran, Russia, US /west are all alligned against pak desire to be imperial power lording over afghan through Taliban.

This is 2011……not 2001

Splitting p

Posted by netizen | Report as abusive
 

One of the biggest tragedies for the Afghans has been that for a long time, everyone has been trying to control & expolit them to their own advantage & this sentiment is reflected in some of the comments on this blog as well. Pakistan wants to use the fighting skills of the Pashtuns as a “strategic depth” & India & Iran want to neutralize Pakistan’s influence by supporting the non-Pashtuns. The Chinese, Russians, Uzbeks, Tajiks etc all have their own interests to worry about. Unfortunately, nobody is talking about rehabilitating & educating the Afghans so that they can be a part of the civilized world. We must realize that the Afghans are also human & not some kind of robotic fighting macines. If given a chance, they’ll give up their guns for a good education, a job & a chance to contribute to the world. Maybe it’s an unrealistic or naive idea but all the countries invloved, would be better off investing money to rahabilitate Afghanistan rather than arming them to the teeth, in order to serve their own selfish interests.

Posted by Mortal1 | Report as abusive
 

Umairpk: “The favourite pass time for Afghans is fighting. When they are at war, they fight with outside invaders. When they are at peace, they fight among each other to sharpen their skills.”

So it is better to leave them fighting each other. This way, they do not get time to allow entities like Al Qaeda or ISI to infiltrate and take over the reins. Afghans, as you said, drifted towards their natural tendencies in 1994. It was Pakistan that created the Taliban and brought “stability” that allowed Al Qaeda to flourish. The US cared a rats rear end what happened in this region at that time. In fact you Pakistanis complain once in a while that the US abandoned this region after defeating the Soviets. It was Al Qaeda that triggered their return, not as a benefactor, but as a hostile enemy.

Afghans do not fight each other to “sharpen their skills.” That is a very polite way of acknowledging the fact that they are still in barbaric times. With little exposure to the outside world, having a history of raiding and plundering others, they do what comes best to them – fight. So long as they fight each other, no one cares. And that is my suggestion. So you are indirectly agreeing with what I am saying.

“You don’t really have good options on the table to deal with such a warrior nation.”

So why make a deal with the Taliban? It is a waste of efforts. They do not have any value for negotiations and treaties. They are barbaric in nature and will violate any rule if the situation demands it.

“And forget about using them as proxies, they don’t know how to take orders, they simply are not used to it. They are proud and fircely independent, recklessly bold people.”

Really? So how did Ahmed Shah Masood stage his campaign against the Taliban? Who proxy was he? Didn’t you guys accuse India of using him as a proxy? Secondly, if they are fiercely independent, reckless and bold people, how did they agree to work under the control of the ISI and create the Taliban? How did they rely on Pakistan’s covert support to fight the Soviets? Independent people fight entirely by themselves and perish with pride if they have to. Why are these fiercely independent and proud people hiding like rats inside Pakistan, under the protection of the ISI?

Do not assume that we cannot think for ourselves. These guys are just as ordinary as anyone else. They are gun toting criminals who are ruling others with the barrel of their guns. There is an unnecessary myth created about their invincibility. America has not made headway due to several reasons – they did not take their mission seriously in the earlier stages and focused on Iraq. They relied on a corrupt, double dealing and deceptive Pakistan to accomplish their aimless goals. And Pakistan took them for a ride by making a deal to ship out all critical elements from Kunduz and hid them in Quetta, Karachi, North Waziristan etc. The only strategy of these brave warriors has been to hide and stay underground for as long as it takes. They have relied on the frustration caused by delays and public anger in the US and NATO countries. The US is coming forward to negotiate with them because time is running out and public are losing their interest in the US. It is a huge electoral worry for their Presidents.

The only thing that needs to be done is to contain Pakistan from spreading its tentacles inside Afghanistan. If that can be accomplished by coercive means, Afghans will take care of themselves. Pakistan has no money and has no resources even to take on its internal enemies in Swat and Waziristan. And it should not be allowed to manipulate the natural development in Afghanistan like it did in 1995. If that can be done, Afghanistan will find its own natural settlement, which in my opinion, a division into two – one dominated by Pashtuns and the second one dominated by the others. And that will help other countries live in peace in the region.

Posted by KPSingh01 | Report as abusive
 

KP

When I say Afghans, I do not necessarily mean Taliban or Pushtoon. Though Pakistan has historically had more closer relations with Pushtoon Afghan since a sizeable majority of Pushtoons live in Pakistan too. Afghans have been tough because they have always faced invaders like Alexander, the British and then Russians who were all ruthless. This made the Afghan insurgent a formidable foe. And don’t forget the Soviet-Afghan war started with second world war rifles, the resistance got more advanced weapons like stingers much later in the 80s. You can sure dismiss them as myths, but these legends were depicted in a poem by Rudyard Kipling in 18th century.
As for Pakistan, we have a historical relationship with Afghanistan and helped them free themselves from Soviet communists. Pakistan is well capable of taking care of fringe elements in Swat/Waziristan funded by outsiders. Also, time and again Pakistan has assured it has no desire to control Afghanistan. And offered to train Afghan Army, help them with transit trade, have a thousands of kilometer border with them, sheltered millions of their refugees for decades. We sure will pursue our regional interest, our interest is an independent, neutral and stable Afghanistan free from Indian influence. That is it!
And that is precisely what Afghanistan should be, a landlocked country as it is already, it should be a neutral, buffer state with all its neighbours having a stake in it ready to assist it recover from civil war. Outsiders like India have minimal interest and should mind their own business, atleast don’t maintain four consulates engaged in questionable activities.

Posted by Umairpk | Report as abusive
 

BTW
Uncle sam will be getting really angry, already being in the line of fire nothing is more irritating like two schoolboys fighting each other out in someone else’s backyard. It will make the job of US much easier to talk to Taliban and push for settlement if India and Pakistan do not turn Afghanistan into a proxy battleground. But then, where does the Kashmir dispute stand? Oh we are supposed to remain silent on that, Kashmir is an integral part of India, there is no dispute there.

PS
Every wise military officer, diplomat, envoy etc have argued there is no military solution to Afghan war. The solution has to be a political one. The sooner this is realized the better, more lives will be saved and earlier a settlement will be achieved.

Posted by Umairpk | Report as abusive
 

@KPSingh
“Pakistan has no money and has no resources even to take on its internal enemies in Swat and Waziristan”
==

There was news item in pak news paper The News about Ahmad Rashid talking to pak military men in Karachi stating Pakistan is increasingly isolated, and has no friends. He has been explicitly stating repeatedly, there are no takers for pak position that India has no locus standi in Afghanistan. Especially, when every one is facing budget constraints Indian offer to assist Afghanistan is positively received except for the pavlovian reaction of paks.

pakistan’s diplomatic, economic stature has declined dramatically. But Paks are both unwilling and incapable of accepting this reality. This delusion of grandeur comes from false notion, having nuclear weapons will give magical powers to Pakistan.

North koreanization of Pakistan is unfolding.

Posted by netizen | Report as abusive
 

@”We sure will pursue our regional interest, our interest is an independent, neutral and stable Afghanistan free from Indian influence. That is it!”
Posted by Umairpk

Do you see the contradiction in your comment? You want an “independent” Afghanistan & yet you want to make sure that there’s no Indian influence on it. An independent Afghanistan means, a nation which is capable of making it’s own decisions with regards to who it wants to be influenced by & your country should have NO say in it. And since we’re talking about Indian influence, can you enlighten us as to what exactly is that “influence”? Is it the unproven LIE of a gazzilion conulates which were created to foment trouble in Pakistan OR is the FACT of a $2bn investment to build roads, schools & hospitals?

Posted by Mortal1 | Report as abusive
 

Umairpk: : “Also, time and again Pakistan has assured it has no desire to control Afghanistan.”

Pakistan created the Taliban and controlled all of Afghanistan as a strategic depth for its activities against India. We all know this truth. Pakistan mixed in its military personnel with the Taliban to help defeat its rivals and take over Pakistan. In Kunduz, the US allowed the airlift of hundreds of Pak soldiers as a part of the bargain with Musharraf. We know that truth too. And you all know that India has gained substantially in Pakistan and has the support of the US and its allies. India has engaged in reconstruction and goodwill efforts much to the agony of your military bosses. And Pakistan has proved itself to be an unreliable country that cannot be trusted on any count. Therefore when Pakistan says there will be no interference in Afghanistan’s affairs, no one takes those statements seriously, other than some patriotic Pakistanis like you. Afghans are very suspicious of your ISI and military for having supported the Taliban before.

“And offered to train Afghan Army, help them with transit trade, have a thousands of kilometer border with them, sheltered millions of their refugees for decades. We sure will pursue our regional interest, our interest is an independent, neutral and stable Afghanistan free from Indian influence. That is it!”

In other words you are demanding that Afghanistan rid itself off any Indian influence as a pre-condition to their existence as an independent state. Unfortunately they are going to decide who they like and dislike. With the help India has offered so far, most likely they will increase their reliance on India. They know that India is an emerging economic power. Trade with India will boost their economy a lot. They cannot help being a neighbor of Pakistan. But they will not trust your military or the ISI.

“But then, where does the Kashmir dispute stand? Oh we are supposed to remain silent on that, Kashmir is an integral part of India, there is no dispute there.”

Pakistan got Azad Kashmir. India got Jammu and the rest. It has been 60 years. Pakistan has nothing left to settle in Kashmir dispute. What needs to happen in Indian Kashmir is better life for the citizens, more freedom, and opportunities. That is something India will work out with its citizens. And we do not demand anything about Azad Kashmir or Aksai Chin and shed crocodile tears. You got what you got and keep that. If Kashmir is an integral part of India, then so is all of Pakistan. But I know you don’t want to go there. So keep your Pakistan and we will leave you alone. We left Bangladesh alone as well. And they are not building nuclear bombs to be at par with us. Be happy with what you got and make sure that what you got does not fall apart.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=65aj_511w OI&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ca3V48jOi Zc&feature=related

It must be a wonder why these people want out of the holy land for Muslims. May be you should focus on those before trying to burn others.

Posted by KPSingh01 | Report as abusive
 

“And you all know that India has gained substantially in Pakistan and has the support of the US and its allies.”

It should read as – And you all know that India has gained substantially in Afghanistan and has the support of the US and its allies.

Posted by KPSingh01 | Report as abusive
 

“We left Bangladesh alone as well. And they are not building nuclear bombs to be at par with us.”

Something else for the Pakistanis to churn about: Bangladesh does not have nukes like you do. It did not “have the guts” to start unnecessary wars with India or “confront” India, like your smart generals did. The Result – In 1971, the value of 1 Banladeshi Taka = App 0.50 Pakistani Rupee & in 2011, 1 Bangladeshi Taka = 1.20 Pakistani Rupee.

Posted by Mortal1 | Report as abusive
 

KPSingh:

Please clarify what does India have in common with Afghanistan? Did you help them when your beloved ally Soviet Union bombed and flatten villages? did you help them when their children lost limbs and arms were amputated due to rocket attacks and land mines? did you help them when in winter there was nothing for them to eat, no warm clothing was available? Did India donate a single cent to medical camps, charities in Peshawar to help them fight Soviet monsters? Did India shelter the millions of homeless refugees from Soviet-Afghan war? Is there a common border shared between India and Afghanistan? Do you provide transit trade facility to Afghans?
Pakistan has more in common with Afghanistan, they are like brothers to us. We never left them alone in their hour of need. We fought alongside with them and bled with them. It was unfortunate after signing Geneva Accords in 1988 peace was not established there and after Soviet withdrawal the country was left alone to plunge into civil war.
Just recently a few call centers opened up in India, a couple of hundered American jobs were outsourced to India and you guys suddenly become tycoons throwing gazzilion of dollars in aid to Afghanistan, building roads, bridges, and space shuttles for Afghanistan? Suddenly started playing geo-strategic games? And Pakistan must sit down and look like a duck? I don’t think so.
As I stated, Us must have a clear roadmap to rehabilitate the Afghans, work out a political solution. Pakistan’s help must be taken to stabilize Afghanistan and prevent that war to spill over to Pakistan’s tribal region. India must not use its influence in Afghanistan to destabilize Pakistan’s Baluchistan region. Afghanistan must remain a neutral buffer state, all its neighbours with a stake including Iran must create conducive conditions to establish a peaceful Afghan society. If anyone thinks there is another workable formula for the Afghan puzzle is living in a fools paradise.

Posted by Umairpk | Report as abusive
 

@”Please clarify what does India have in common with Afghanistan?” Posted by Umairpk

India has a lot more in common with Afghanistan than Pakistan has in common with China. So one can also ask, why is Pakistan sitting in China’s lap? Nations do not need to have anything in common to become friends, in fact they can be bitter foes in the past & still become good friends (US-Japan, US-Germany etc). India is in Afghanistan because a moderate, civilized & democratic Afghanistan is in it’s interest & also in the interest of the Afghan people & the global community. India is not in Afghanistan to control it or to keep Pakistan out. If Pakistan wants to joing India & the global community in the rehabilitation of Afghanistan, it is most welcome to do so but the problem is that Pakistan’s mission in Afghanistan is to control it (via an opressive regime like Taliban) & exploit it to serve it’s own geo-strategic agenda. Simply put, India is working with the Afghan people & the global community in Afghanistan whereas Pakistan is working against everybody else’s interests. You need to get it out of your head that India’s goal in Afghanistan is, to destabalize Pakistan. You guys have been claiming this for years now without providing an iota of evidence to the international community. Repeating a lie, over & over, won’t make it the truth.

Posted by Mortal1 | Report as abusive
 

India has a lot more in common with Afghanistan than Pakistan has in common with China. So one can also ask, why is Pakistan sitting in China’s lap?
==

Ouch :-)

That’s a good one.

Chinese eat chicken tikka masala, listen to sitar and tabla, speak hindustani….and pakistan is Buddhist& Taoist republic…..

Haven’t you heard?

Posted by netizen | Report as abusive
 

Umair
You ask Indians good questions but you would never get a straight answer from them.

Posted by Matrixx | Report as abusive
 

Umairpk: “Please clarify what does India have in common with Afghanistan?”

India’s history goes back thousands of years, much before Islam came to the sub-continent and the creation of Pakistan as a result. Buddhism spread through Central Asia and during the Kushana dynasty, Buddhism flourished in this region. During the rule of emperor Kanishka, Buddhism spread far and wide from this region as well. The giant Bamiyan Buddha statues in Afghanistan are testament to that. So India has a lot more in common with Afghanistan and Pakistan, no matter how much you try to cleanse that bond off. Our interest is having a region that is amicable, peaceful with healthy interactions between the people of the region. Afghans are willing to work with us. Are Pakistanis up to that? I do not see that in the horizon.

“Did you help them when your beloved ally Soviet Union bombed and flatten villages? did you help them when their children lost limbs and arms were amputated due to rocket attacks and land mines? did you help them when in winter there was nothing for them to eat, no warm clothing was available? Did India donate a single cent to medical camps, charities in Peshawar to help them fight Soviet monsters? Did India shelter the millions of homeless refugees from Soviet-Afghan war? Is there a common border shared between India and Afghanistan? Do you provide transit trade facility to Afghans?”

We would have done all that if we were allowed to. Pakistan’s first pre-condition with the US was absolutely no Indian involvement whatsoever. They were afraid that India would derail everything from Pakistan’s perspective. We surely could have provided all the medical and financial help if needed. The road block was set by Pakistan. And we were on the opposite camp at that time. The US did not want anything to have to do with India then.

When your proud military plundered your Muslim brothers in East Pakistan, we did everything for them that you have listed above.

When Pakistan created the Taliban to take over Afghanistan, we helped the non-Taliban Afghans fight them and keep their dignity alive. So we have helped Afghans, but it may not be on Pakistan’s terms.

“Pakistan has more in common with Afghanistan, they are like brothers to us.”

All this is lip service. The only thing common between Pakistan and Afghanistan is religion. And India has more Muslims than all of Afghanistan and equals in number to that in Pakistan. So, surely from religious stand point, we have common stuff too. There are many Afghans settled in India over generations and have contributed to our cultural fabric. To name a few – Mansur Ali Khan Pataudi (former prince and cricket captain), Mohammed Azharuddin (former Indian cricket captain), numerous artists, actors, lyricists etc in Bollywood. India’s grand Mansabdari system that prevails to this day was set up by Sher Shah Suri, one of the most brilliant and able administrators of his time. Akbar built the whole system on the foundations laid by Sher Shah and Moghul empire became one of the wealthiest after that. I can go on and on. Kindly read proper history before preaching to us.

“We never left them alone in their hour of need.”

When Armitage asked “Or you with us or against us,” looks like you dropped them like a rock and ran for cover. If you really are their brothers at all times, your country would not have taken stand with the Americans. At least the Taliban had more balls. They simply refused to hand over Al Qaeda criminals. And they paid the price for it. But Pakistan quietly dropped the Taliban and pretended to be fighting terrorism. You guys ran with the hares and ran with the hounds to save your rear ends. You had the nukes. Yet you let the Americans launch their drones from your soil to hunt and kill your “inseparable brothers.” Afghans are really miffed about that double dealing act on your part. No matter how much you can cover up facts with lies, we all can see for ourselves.

“We fought alongside with them and bled with them.”

See above. They bled for sure. Their women were reduced to the level of cattle, beaten up in public, and humiliated with their education and health care denied. And you had everything in tact in Pakistan and lived a happy life at their expense. Your “brotherhood” with them was for a long term strategic depth against us. There was no other intention.

“It was unfortunate after signing Geneva Accords in 1988 peace was not established there and after Soviet withdrawal the country was left alone to plunge into civil war.”

So what? It is their country. They would have settled it down on their own if given time. Pakistan was trying to prop up Hekmatyar and Haqqani and when it did not work, went to work on creating the Taliban. Your country did everything to control Afghanistan and capitalize on their backwardness. If you go to Kabul today, they will hack you down because you are a Pakistani. I can tell you that much. They have nothing against India. We have only worked towards their infrastructure building. And they are thankful for that.

“Just recently a few call centers opened up in India, a couple of hundered American jobs were outsourced to India and you guys suddenly become tycoons throwing gazzilion of dollars in aid to Afghanistan, building roads, bridges, and space shuttles for Afghanistan?”

It is not as simple as that. India built the needed infrastructure for industrial growth. It took about forty years for things to mature. India built high class educational institutions, medical colleges, research labs, sent people abroad to get graduate degrees in various fields, built steel, automobile, textile, agro industries. India has one of the best business management schools in the world. It is well respected for high quality education in computer science. Many Indians who went to the US helped the Silicon Valley there grow into a global power. If you look at most top US companies today, you will find an Indian’s name either as a founder or a contributor. Indians earned respect and regard for their hard work and potential in Western countries. So when in 1991 India liberalized the economy, it was ready with the needed potential and infrastructure to handle business with the West. And there was not a blip in the growth as a result. India was ready in 1970 for that matter. It was hard work that has brought us to where we are and of course I do not expect Pakistanis like you to appreciate that. You guys think we get free dole. We don’t. We have worked on self reliance and it has made us quite independent. Tomorrow if the US disappears, we still will be an economic power. It is just that the US and other Western powers are respecting us for what we have accomplished. It is not cheap labor.

“Suddenly started playing geo-strategic games?”

If India is such a weak country in all aspects, what makes Pakistan a power that can play its geo-strategic games?

“And Pakistan must sit down and look like a duck? I don’t think so.”

Pakistan should sit down and see what it can do to become a normal nation. The timer is ticking. If I were you, I will worry about the bomb going off.

“As I stated, Us must have a clear roadmap to rehabilitate the Afghans, work out a political solution.”

They are working on it. But they are ignorant and gullible. We know the region better than them. Hence our concerns.

“Pakistan’s help must be taken to stabilize Afghanistan and prevent that war to spill over to Pakistan’s tribal region.”

Pakistan should first take care of itself. It must eliminate all terrorism infrastructure, destroy radicalism, make democracy healthy, reduce military’s power hold and become a normal nation. The rest will take care of itself.

“India must not use its influence in Afghanistan to destabilize Pakistan’s Baluchistan region.”

All this is old story. India has no time to engage in such acts. India wants friendly relations with Afghanistan and no one can stand on the way. If Pakistan does not like it, that’s too bad.

“Afghanistan must remain a neutral buffer state, all its neighbours with a stake including Iran must create conducive conditions to establish a peaceful Afghan society. If anyone thinks there is another workable formula for the Afghan puzzle is living in a fools paradise.”

Afghanistan in today’s shape will not work. It has been destroyed beyond shape. All that is left are a bunch of tribals. It is not a nation in the real sense. It needs to be restructured so that it can work for the well being of the people in the region. The greatest danger to Afghans is Pakistan. So until Pakistan is corrected, nothing will change in Afghanistan. That is why the US is working on Af-Pak instead of Afghanistan alone.

Posted by KPSingh01 | Report as abusive
 

On a different note, a good analysis of the distortion of history in Pakistan by a credible Pakistani intellectual Najam Sethi. (Only for those who understand urdu/hindi)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UUKr3bCaN JY

Posted by Mortal1 | Report as abusive
 

Matrixx said:

> Umair
> You ask Indians good questions but you would never get a straight answer from them.

You see what you want to see, don’t you? I see Pakistanis failing to answer questions that Indians put to them. For a start, can one of you guys answer me about your Kashmir contradiction? “Azadi” means something very different from “Kashmir banega Pakistan” (or “banay ga” the way you guys spell it ;-). So why do you keep supporting azadi for Kashmiris knowing fully well that it will mean the loss of AJK and GB? Or is it a cynical ploy to get Kashmir out of India’s hands, after which azadi will be crushed underfoot and Kashmir banega Pakistan?

A straight answer will be much appreciated.

Regards,
Ganesh Prasad

Posted by prasadgc | Report as abusive
 

Ganesh:

Let me give you a polite and straightforward answer on Kashmir. India must keep things in Kashmir the same as they are, it will be only a matter of time before you will start to see its effects. Kashmir is a simmering dispute and can become a flashpoint. Just remember, just small flames here and there can quickly become a raging inferno and burn everything in its way. That is what going to happen to Kashmir in the long run, people there are not happy with Indian rule. Forget about Azadi or Kashmir bane ga Pakistan. Kashmir will be India’s nightmare and you will regret for not getting rid of the dispute, by that time it will be too late. You can see how decades of middle east dictatorships are collapsing. For example, the Egyptian government was toppled in just 18 days, but the revolution had been in the works for many many years. When decades of anger and frustration boiled over in the streets, that dictator had to cut and run. Hold on to dear Kashmir, a straight answer.

Posted by Umairpk | Report as abusive
 

Ganesh,
Let me add. People of Kashmir have lot more in common with people of Pakistan. So even if they are independent they will be much closer to Pakistan. Understand.
India treats Kashmir as a territory to be ruled from Dilli. You see the consequences.
Is it straight enough for you, dear neighbor.

Posted by Matrixx | Report as abusive
 

If Kashmiris have more in common with Pakistanis, then Pakistanis have more in common with Indians. If that logic is used, then we should talk of merging Pakistan with India because of genetic ties. I know Pakistanis do not like to be with India. So as a corollary, Kashmir cannot be with Pakistan. And if they try to stay alone, the testes of the Mujahideen will explode and they cannot control it. So it is better if Kashmir solution is worked out between Kashmiris and Indians. Pakistan has nothing to do with it. You got a nation for Muslims. You butchered half of it. Another part wants to leave. No one is happy. Life has become miserable. So go work on it. We will take care of Kashmir. May be you can give Azad Kashmir to us so that we can make life better for them.

Posted by KPSingh01 | Report as abusive
 

@”People of Kashmir have lot more in common with people of Pakistan.” Posted by Matrixx

That’s also a bunch of balony fed to Pakistanis, by their establishment. May I ask, what do Kashmiri muslims have in common with the Punjabis, Sindhis, Balochs, Pashtuns, Muhajirs, Seraikis etc. of Pakistan except religion? And if it is just religion then they (kashmiris) also share the same religion with 150 million Indians. And if you talk about ethnicity, Kashmiris have a lot more commonality in India (Kashmiri pundits & sikhs and also poeple living in parts of Himachal Pradesh) than they have in Pakistan. Twisting facts won’t change the reality.

Posted by Mortal1 | Report as abusive
 

KPS and Mortal
I have not mentioned religion, genes or ethnicities not that all such factors need to considered at some level.
My proposition is simpler than that. Let Kashmiris decide what they like. Give them full freedom to travel, trade and interact and see where they go. If they want to form a union with Gujratis, it is their choice. You guys want to force things on others.
I believe that Indus valley is a distinct group of people relative to Ganges valley. Peace can be restored if you drop the concept Maha Bharat where ever it come from and make sincere effort to have cooperation in balanced trade and exchange. I should not write this para because you would consider it as an opening.

Posted by Matrixx | Report as abusive
 

Matrixx: “Let Kashmiris decide what they like. Give them full freedom to travel, trade and interact and see where they go. If they want to form a union with Gujratis, it is their choice. You guys want to force things on others.”

If that is the case, why is Pakistan desperately holding on to Balochistan? They want out and would like to be on their own. Would you first like to give them what they want? As far as forcing things on others, you guys are the world champions – four wars towards us, Kargil included, plundering of East Pakistan to thrust your dominance over Bengalis, pushing the Taliban into Afghanistan to control the country, do you need more?

“I believe that Indus valley is a distinct group of people relative to Ganges valley.”

On what evidence are you talking? Balochi language Brahui is related to the Dravidian languages in Southern India. Do not distort facts with ignorance and lies. Go read and enlighten yourself.

“Peace can be restored if you drop the concept Maha Bharat where ever it come from and make sincere effort to have cooperation in balanced trade and exchange.”

We are happy with what we have. Now it would be good if you do the same.
We have no interest in your country. We accept the fact that it is a reality and we are glad you are separate from us. You keep all the religious fanatics, militants and corrupt military and live happily ever after. As far balanced trade and exchange, everyone else is vying to do business with us. We have had close to four heads of states from wealthy nations make a visit last year and pitch for business co-operation with our country. If you want trade and balance with us, you will have to make the effort. We have no interest in your country or your affairs. We only show concern because events in your country affects us, for being your neighbors.

“I should not write this para because you would consider it as an opening.”

Opening to what?

Posted by KPSingh01 | Report as abusive
 

KP
I can not take you seriously. In previous post you wanted Azad Kashmir handed to you for no reason and now you say that you are happy with what you got. Make up your mind. Then come back and talk.
What is your bottom line? Is it religion, genes, caste, languages?

Posted by Matrixx | Report as abusive
 

Kp
The question of Baluchistan is unrelated. Why do you raise it when you don’t believe in rights of the people. The problems are being looked at and as soon as Afghanistan occupation is removed,you won’t see that problem also. Do you support occupation of Afghanistan? Why do you support division of Afghanistan and but not India?
If you don’t want to deal with Pakistan, why is Indian government holding talks?

Posted by Matrixx | Report as abusive
 

KPSingh:”If that is the case, why is Pakistan desperately holding on to Balochistan? They want out and would like to be on their own. Would you first like to give them what they want?”

-Baluchistan is an integral part of Pakistan and things there are pretty relaxed except a few Indian backed desperate insurgents, Pakistan will take care of them. Today Baluchi nationalist leaders are being engaged in a national dialogue to address their grieviences if any.
And just forget about 1971, that is now history. Pakistan’s nuclear doctrine clearly states if any part of Pakistan’s territory including Baluchistan is under any threat, Pakistan will defend itself through all available means.
As with Azad kashmir, after making the life of Muslims in Indian occupied Kashmir a living hell, I don’t think Azad Kashmir will ever accept Indian rule. You must rather keep your hands off Azad Kashmir, they will remain better off.
If any country should ever be further divided, it should be India. India in its present state has become a regional hegimon imposing its will on its neighbours and is a threat to its neighbouring nations. Only a divided and weakened India will pose a smaller threat. All other countries like Pakistan, Afghanistan etc must remain united and strong to face the Indian threat and eliminate it. Few comments on this blog reflect the psyche of Indians, they think they are a bigger country, being huge means they should have a bigger share of everything. Impose their will on others, ‘cut other countries into half’. My foot. Just see even if you are a super power or not? Once you become a super power than think of these things, right now concentrate on your slums and poor farmers who are committing suicides in hundereds.

Posted by Umairpk | Report as abusive
 

@Umairpk

Pakistan was apparently opted for by the then muslim leaders to have some space for muslims. The military rulers of Pakistan, later forgot the mission and the intellectual thinking of the fathers( I say fathers since jinnah was not the only one, there were others before him who had similar visions) of todays Nation, did not improve upon the democracy which was used to create Paistan. Today the whole world knows the achievements of the military rulers, I do not have to elaborate on this. What I have experienced on this blog and many others that it is the space Pakistani bloggers their well wishers are not going to get from Indians. Some of the so called Indians are themselves victims, but their hatred towards a muslm Pakistan appears to be far greater than the Indian Govt. who have deprived them of their dignity. They are ready to ut out the biggest rap I have ever come across any bolg, they do not restrict their venom to a sentence or paragraph, but but half a page and more distortion and diversion on any subject affecting Pakistan or Afghanistan. Their knowledge is google, NY Times and Washington Post.KP is relatively harmless and most of the times blowing in the wind. This much about the people who are trying to confuse the article with the rhetoric.
You mentioned something about the wise officers who believe that there is no military solution in so called Afghan crisis. I beg to disagree with the wise officers.American might and the rag tag NATO military have been decidedly defeated militarily and on the battle ground. The timing as to when the foreigners are going to withdraw has not yet been decided by the so called Talibans. You are one of the fortunate ones to see the history being made in your part of the country. For Pashtoons DIGNITY is the guiding force, though money is their weakness. A balance between the two have always been difficult.Do not misunderstand karzai, who is also a Pahton Taliban leader. The word Pashtoon is synanimous with Afghan, Tajiks, Uzbeks and Hazaras are afghan citizens bu no different from those who are living in Uzbekistan and Tajikistan.

The USA with their experience in Vietnam have taken adequate precautions to ull out f the region overnight, they have an airborne Division in Bagram!

The Pashtoons have always fought for their dignity, in peace time they do not fight among themselves. They are independent tribes and live with their traditional ethics. You have a wrong image of Pashtoons.

I wish sometimes that Pakistan military had that much dignity for themselves? They need not be intruding into the Pashtoon territory simply to get some bucks from the USA? Dignity is the word today across the Arabian penunciala and beyond which people have lost on account the desert rats who on accunt of oil installed themselves as their Amirs and Khalifas. A lively piece of history we are watching, the wrld is not going to be the same. Have a nice day.

Rex Minor

Posted by pakistan | Report as abusive
 

“I believe that Indus valley is a distinct group of people relative to Ganges valley”.
Posted by Matrixx

Aaah!

Would that explain why people who migrated from the Ganges valley in 1947 still feel like second class citizens in the country of Indus valley :-(

http://www.dividepakistan.blogspot.com/

Are Pashtuns and Baluchis Indus valley people?

Posted by netizen | Report as abusive
 

netizen,
I’ll not discuss Pakistan issues with any Indian till such time you explain the concept of Maha Bharat and atoot ang.

Posted by Matrixx | Report as abusive
 

Matrixx said:

> I’ll not discuss Pakistan issues with any Indian till such time you explain the concept of Maha Bharat and atoot ang.

I explained to you before with numbers and percentages why the notion of undivided India is unviable. At the time, you claimed to understand logic but you seem to have suffered an unexplained memory loss. I’m not going to fall for this trick and explain again just because you find yourself cornered in an argument. I guess the lack of integration of the Mohajirs and the Bangladesh genocide are too embarrassing.

You are ironically right. Although Pakistan hasn’t been able to make its ethnic groups stick together on the basis of religion, it is a wonderful thing that Pakistan is an independent country and not part of India – wonderful for India, that is. Don’t use the phrases of an extremist political fringe in India to score points with everyone else. No Indian on this blog has ever said they want India to re-absorb Pakistan. God forbid! It would be a disaster for India to reunite with Pakistan.

There’s no contradiction if KP says India should take back Azad Kashmir. That’s what is meant by “disputed territory” – LOL. Both India and Pakistan claim Kashmir in its entirety. Thankfully, India realises that taking back territory is generally infeasible and is willing to freeze the current borders. Pakistan doesn’t realise the futility of changing borders and never gives up trying to take back Indian-held Kashmir, bankrupting itself in the process. What about the worsening condition of the common people? Never mind. If they don’t have roti, they can eat isotopes, right? More warheads now for everyone to eat.

In any case, the term you’re groping for is “Akhand Bharat” (undivided India), not “Maha Bharat” (India the Great). Maha Bharat can be used even to refer to India itself (current political borders).

Some constructive dialog we’re having, eh?

Regards,
Ganesh Prasad

Posted by prasadgc | Report as abusive
 

Matrixx:

“I can not take you seriously.”

Thanks.

“In previous post you wanted Azad Kashmir handed to you for no reason and now you say that you are happy with what you got. Make up your mind.”

According to the instrument of access signed by the then head of state Hari Singh, all of Kashmir acceded to India. Pakistan is holding Azad Kashmir part of it illegally. As per the UN resolution of 1948, Pakistan is required to vacate from all areas in Kashmir and India is to provide a minimum security protection. Neither conditions have been satisfied. We are still happy with what we have got. But it is you Pakistanis who are demanding more. You got Azad Kashmir illegally. It has been 62 years. So I am all right with letting go off that piece of land. We have the rest of Kashmir and we do not want you demanding it from us. We will not let go off it. That was my point.

“Then come back and talk.”

I just did.

“What is your bottom line? Is it religion, genes, caste, languages?”

Do not divide on religious, linguistic and ideological terms. Do not draw arbitrary borders without an iota of knowledge about demographic and resource distributions. If the two are not considered, you get Pakistan. India is the right example of how many communities can co-exist and work towards progress as one nation. Pakistan which was created as a sand bag for the imperial UK and due to the power craze of a wily politician, is a classic example of what happens to countries founded on such factors. It is a complete failure. And now it is trying to drag other down with it. That is why it is important to help Afghans from being choked to death by a drowning Pakistan.

Posted by KPSingh01 | Report as abusive
 

Matrixx:

“The question of Baluchistan is unrelated.”

How? Balochis want out of Pakistan. There is history of them being cheated and forcibly annexed with Pakistan. They have no special love for your nation. After East Pakistan was cut off, Balochis and Sindhis rebelled too. Your military used brutal means to suppress their demands. If it is all right for your to poke at us in regards to Kashmir, then it is all right for us to give you a taste of your own medicine. If you support Kashmiri self determination, then you are indirectly supporting the same for the Balochis. If you want to be fair, you cannot be selective.

“Why do you raise it when you don’t believe in rights of the people.”

I am asking you the same question about Balochis. Please answer that first.

“The problems are being looked at and as soon as Afghanistan occupation is removed,you won’t see that problem also.”

We will see about that. We are not going to let you have the cake and eat it too. Do not even dream that you will get back into Afghanistan the way you did in 1989. We will keep you busy. Do not worry. You might need a lot of blood donation in the process.

“Do you support occupation of Afghanistan?”

It is not an occupation. Get your head straight first.
The US did not come to occupy Afghanistan. They are on a hunt for Al Qaeda leaders and a permanent solution to Islamic terrorism that is emanating from Afghanistan and mostly Pakistan. If your country gives up its reliance on terrorism and hands over the criminals it has been hiding, the US will leave.

“Why do you support division of Afghanistan and but not India?”

Because Afghanistan has been burnt down by 30 years of war. It has nothing but rubble. Its people need to live in peace. They are prevented from living in peace by the marauding tribes and their supporters from Pakistan. In the current condition, Af-Pak will only create problems for the world than any solution. Hence the recommendation to seek a permanent solution. Division is one of those considerations.

India is not a quagmire of civil wars, tribals with machine guns, radical extremists blowing up everyone for breakfast. India is a proper nation with civil infrastructure and government. When any nation fails to meet the goal of being a nation, alternatives need to be looked at. If India was fuming with endless wars and calamity, surely one solution would be to break it up along a set of boundary conditions. India is not. Afghanistan is and Pakistan is headed in that direction as well. That is why Obama calls the whole thing as Af-Pak. It will become Pak-Af soon.

“If you don’t want to deal with Pakistan, why is Indian government holding talks?”

That is my individual opinion. I do not run the daily affairs of my government. And they represent a civilized nation. They have to deal with criminal states through negotiations no matter what. So they are dealing with Pakistan. That’s all. They know nothing will come out of those talks.

Posted by KPSingh01 | Report as abusive
 

Umairpk: “Baluchistan is an integral part of Pakistan and things there are pretty relaxed except a few Indian backed desperate insurgents,”

You can believe your military’s version as much as you want. I used to know a Balochi when I was in the US during grad school and I know how much he hated your country’s occupation of its land. You will need to provide concrete proof of Indian involvement in Balochistan. Otherwise, you are pulling things out of the air, much like everyone in Pakistan is doing.

“Pakistan will take care of them.”

We know. And they know it too. That is why they are seeking international help for their self determination.

“Today Baluchi nationalist leaders are being engaged in a national dialogue to address their grieviences if any.”

It is all an eye wash and time buying tactic. No one trusts Pakistanis and their establishment. Your country has the reputation of backstabbing everyone. With that reputation, no one has any faith in any talks with your establishment.

“And just forget about 1971, that is now history.”

So why can’t you forget everything until yesterday? It is all history as well.

“Pakistan’s nuclear doctrine clearly states if any part of Pakistan’s territory including Baluchistan is under any threat, Pakistan will defend itself through all available means.”

And if Balochis manage to fight on their own, your nukes will be used on them I suppose. When a criminal is dangerously armed, no one in his right mind is going to confront him directly. But he will be contained until he is nabbed. So India will not come into confrontation with your criminal state. But we will try to help the hostages you are holding for sure.

“As with Azad kashmir, after making the life of Muslims in Indian occupied Kashmir a living hell, I don’t think Azad Kashmir will ever accept Indian rule. You must rather keep your hands off Azad Kashmir, they will remain better off.”

Ok. Keep them. And we will keep the rest. Case closed. Let me see for how long you can live with that.

“If any country should ever be further divided, it should be India.”

Unfortunately India is not going in that direction. You will be very disappointed.

“India in its present state has become a regional hegimon imposing its will on its neighbours and is a threat to its neighbouring nations.”

Only Pakistanis are saying that. No one else is. We have issues with our other neighbors and they have their with us. But that is very normal between neighboring countries. The real threat to the region is China and its proxies like Pakistan.

“Only a divided and weakened India will pose a smaller threat.”

I see the solution to Pakistan the same way. You guys got a nation and have done nothing with it. You have turned it into a terrorist swamp and have become a menace to the whole world. Every Islamic terrorist has its roots in Pakistan. And no one wants to come to your country. No one wants to even play cricket there. Everyone is corrupt. Players are making money betting and spot fixing. Politicians are stashing money abroad. Militants are blowing people up. There is no money. There is severe unemployment. Conditions are ripe for your country to fall apart. Bhutto’s dream is coming true – time to eat grass.

“All other countries like Pakistan, Afghanistan etc must remain united and strong to face the Indian threat and eliminate it.”

Dream on.

“Few comments on this blog reflect the psyche of Indians,”

And your views reflect your psyche too. When you point a finger at us, you have three fingers on your hand pointing back at you.

“they think they are a bigger country, being huge means they should have a bigger share of everything.”

No. We got a country. We want to progress and live well. Unfortunately the imperial British created a criminal state next to us to keep us from achieving that goal. Us being big has nothing to with any of it. Your country is a problem maker and a regional bully. And we are dealing with you accordingly. Only Pakistanis have staged attacks like the one in Mumbai and Madrid.

“Impose their will on others, ‘cut other countries into half’.”

I am only voicing my opinion here. I do not represent all Indians. Trouble makers need to be contained. Your country has done nothing constructive ever since its birth and it has turned criminal. At some point chains need to be put on the feet. Hence my suggestion.

“My foot.”

Your country might be left just with that and nothing else.

“Just see even if you are a super power or not? Once you become a super power than think of these things, right now concentrate on your slums and poor farmers who are committing suicides in hundereds.”

We are not aiming to be a super power. We are aiming to be a progressive and secular nation. We are working on eliminating poverty and backwardness. We have made substantial progress in that direction. But in a huge population like we have, changes are slow to take place. But things are moving in the right direction. So do not worry. We have taken care of ourselves. But I cannot say that about your country.

Posted by KPSingh01 | Report as abusive
 

KPS
I have read your mantra. There are no common treads between us, so I politely say go away. Let the history flow and decide the future.

Posted by Matrixx | Report as abusive
 

Matrixx: “There are no common treads between us, so I politely say go away. Let the history flow and decide the future.”

FYI, I do not take orders from you. So take a big hike.

Posted by KPSingh01 | Report as abusive
 

looks like we’re back to the same old rhetoric of 1971, nukes, kashmir, hegemony, call centers, slums, etc etc….yawn!

Posted by Mortal1 | Report as abusive
 

I see there is a spirited discussion between the Pakistani members and the Indian. I can see the desperate defence from the Pak members about their country’s condition. I do appreciate the scholarly retorts from KP Singh and the others, though he (KPS) does get occasionally irritated by the responses from his ‘opponents’ in the debate. But I feel everyone, esp the Indian members, miss one basic point. The people of Pakistan, their civilians and their politicians included, have been put at a disadvantage by their ‘Establishment’. The troubles the rest of the world, most notably the Indians, face from Pakistan arise entirely from the actions of the Pak military, not their civilians. We need to appreciate that the Pak civilians in this blog end up fighting for their country’s honour but cut sorry figures because of the indefensible behaviour of their military. Remember, every country has an army but in Pakistan the army owns that country. Every effort by their civilian leadership to take charge of governance of the country has been nullified by the military.

So I request KPS and other bloggers to go ‘soft’ on the poor Pak civilians on this blog and not blame them for their country’s atrocious behaviour in the world stage the blame for which entirely is beyond theirs. They are more to be pitied than censured, if you know what I mean.

Posted by chidambaram | Report as abusive
 

@Hey fellows
Another smart Alec has appeared on the blog, patronising the minority Pakistanis and at the same time mentioning Pakistan military atrocities on the world stage. I am not sure if he wanted to mention American military or Pakistani military? Watch this guy and alert your ISI after him?
He is upto no good! Perhaps he is the third sikh(not Indian) living abroad due to the creation of Pakistan. These sikhs genuinely love their home towns in Punjab!

Rex Minor

Posted by pakistan | Report as abusive
 

Chidambaram,

We know that Pakistan was created for its military. It is the real villain. I have mentioned that in most of my postings here.

There is no need to go easy on those who defend the actions of this military cartel and share its view towards us.

There are different kinds of war – some wars are conducted where there is no real passion involved. People do not get emotional about them. If a military unit is sent into quell unrest through a request, no one will feel much about it. When WW II happened, many Indians fought for the British colonial empire. No one felt patriotic or emotional about it.

Then there are wars where people get involved. And these wars do not happen on the battle front alone. It happens on all fronts. People stay aligned with their side almost 100%. In the case of India-Pakistan, or in the case of US-USSR cold war, this was the case. In such wars, people take very clear stance and fight in every which way possible. Any disadvantage to the opposition, makes one side happy. When Indians were attacked in Australia, I have seen Pakistanis supporting the attacks and feeling thrilled. When India is at the receiving end in Kashmir, the same feelings are vented. If India wins over Pakistan even in a cricket match, it appears shameful to Pakistanis. Indians in general are diverse and easy going in this regard. We have seen many such defeats and we go about our lives. In Pakistan, losing to India is not an option. If they go down, they’d like us to go down with them as well. Such is their psyche. In India there are factions that share a similar sentiment towards Pakistanis. But most Indians are not that passionate. Mumbai attacks changed everything. I have not seen one Pakistani here condemn the acts of their terrorists. They went on all cylinders to defend themselves. Sometimes I wonder is such attacks are carefully staged to divide people and widen that divide even more. And I do not see any difference between that attack and the Direct action launched by Jinnah. The goal is to create a divide and then unleash emotions. The divide will go on widening. Lies are being repeated consistently. We cannot allow that. Lobbying can make us look evil when in reality the other side is full of it. And Pakistan seems to be very good at it. Therefore we have to be doubly careful and challenge their false assertions. Otherwise, they can easily campaign for their cause and gain advantage. This forum is read widely. Many do not have clear knowledge of South Asian affairs. They can be misled very easily by persistent campaign of lies. That is one reason why we all come here and present our side of the case. There is no need to be easy going on them. They do not care the same about us.

Posted by KPSingh01 | Report as abusive
 

@Chidambaram

I have yet to come across an Indian on this blog, who blames Pakistani civilians for their current problems. It’s crytstal clear to non-Pakistanis (not just Indians) that the PA/ISI is the root cause of all ills in Pakistan & that’s exactly what we’ve been trying to impress upon the Pakistanis but unfortunately, they’re unwilling to accept the reality (at least not in front of Indians, maybe they accept it privately).

Posted by Mortal1 | Report as abusive
 

@Chidambaram

I’m going to disagree with you and some Indians here. It is a serious myth, fallacy repeatedly propagated by some on both sides of the border that pak civilians are innocent goats and military is the villain.

It is true pak civilians may feel frustrated with their military, but when it comes to anti-India war mongering and terrorism, the pak civilian population has been solidly behind Pak army.

Pak civilian population solidy cheered on and supported each war including 1999 Kargil until the humiliating end came each time. Through 25+ years of pakistan sponsored terrorism through India, pak civilians were either smugly pretending they had nothing to do with it or laughing at Indians and asking us to “address the root causes” of terrorism.

They started singing different tunes only in the past 3–4 years when they stared tasting their own bitter medicine with bombs exploding right and left in Lahore and Islamabad.

Posted by netizen | Report as abusive
 

@Matrixx

“I believe that Indus valley is a distinct group of people relative to Ganges valley. Peace can be restored if you drop the concept Maha Bharat where ever it come from and make sincere effort to have cooperation in balanced trade and exchange. I should not write this para because you would consider it as an opening.”

***The last time Maha Bharat (you used the word Akhand Bharat at that time) came into discussion, Ganesh convinced you into admitting that Akhand Bharat is a stupid idea from Indian perspective. I still recall that simple arithmetic. You have forgotten that and are back at it again. I wonder why.

Posted by rehmat | Report as abusive
 

“They (PA) need not be intruding into the Pashtoon territory simply to get some bucks from the USA?

***Is NWFP or Pakhtoonkhwa an independent territory for Pushtoons that PA is considered an intrusion? I do not know why it could be called “intrusion”.

*************

Umair

I have seen a number of Pakistanis telling me how Pushtoon immigrants were mistreated by Pakistanis. We know what is happening in Karachi with Pushtoons.

Posted by rehmat | Report as abusive
 

Umair

“If any country should ever be further divided, it should be India. India in its present state has become a regional hegimon imposing its will on its neighbours and is a threat to its neighbouring nations.”
***I have not heard anyone else complain except Pakistan. “Rising power” will appear “hegimon” to you and that is no surprise.

“Only a divided and weakened India will pose a smaller threat.”
***Looks like you spent a night with that Chinese journalist who proposed that. So your hypothesis that weak and split Pakistan is not India’s interest does not work in a reciprocal manner. I was taking that for guaranteed.

Posted by rehmat | Report as abusive
 

Mortal1 said:

> looks like we’re back to the same old rhetoric of 1971, nukes, kashmir, hegemony, call centers, slums, etc etc….yawn!

On the contrary, I sense a shift in the wind. I don’t know if you sense it, but the tone of the Pakistanis has subtly changed, and I think it reflects new introspection in their country. Some of the old rhetoric still carries over, naturally, but I think dialogue is increasingly possible.

We as civilians/citizens may still be caught up in older ways of thinking and talking, but I believe there is some serious official dialogue going on, and we may even see some dramatic settlement this year, when no one expects anything to happen.

Why do I think so?

Well, the situation resembles an “end game” of sorts, and I think the Pakistani military has reluctantly realised it has reached the end of the road in terms of hostile options. World opinion (especially that of the US) has hardened in a number of ways, funding is becoming more conditional, the Pakistani economy is weakening alarmingly, India’s influence is increasing, and in general, options are running out. They have to look at making peace, finally. The military surely knows, as former Air Marshal Asghar Khan freely admits (http://bit.ly/bP8TRC), that India did not start any wars. The Pakistanis did. (They did it for Kashmir, and they lost every time. He clearly says, “In 60 years, they’ve not aggressed against us.”) And so it’s entirely in the hands of the Pakistani military to change the tenor of the relationship.

There will be a settlement on Kashmir very soon. Former Pakistani Foreign Minister Khurshid Kasuri has said the Musharraf peace plan is not lost and can be revived (http://bit.ly/gLfcFN). It just takes will on the Pakistani side, and I think that harsh economic reality is playing a part in bringing about that will.

Kashmir itself isn’t such a big issue anymore, as Barkha Dutt also mentions (http://bit.ly/fzXtNe). I think the “indigenous” Kashmir riots were Pakistan’s last throw of the dice (and the only affordable option, at Rs. 400 per stone-thrower ;-) ). Regardless of the fervent hope of Pakistanis that Kashmiris will struggle until they manage to break away, the analogy with the fall of Middle Eastern dictators is overblown. India has many more soft options to deal with Kashmir.

I think the settlement is coming, and I also think the Pakistanis sense this better then we do. The person who’s going to blink will always know it first.

Regards,
Ganesh Prasad

Posted by prasadgc | Report as abusive
 

Ganesh Prasad: “I think the settlement is coming, and I also think the Pakistanis sense this better then we do. The person who’s going to blink will always know it first.”

That will buy probably another 20 years of peace. in 1972, after the Simla agreement, Pakistan went off in its own way for sometime. When the Soviet tanks rolled into Kabul, the old emotions returned with a vengeance. People tend to me a lot emotional in Pakistan. In a decade’s time, they were back to square one. In the early and mid eighties Pakistan began to launch its support for extremism in Punjab by helping the Khalistan movement. After that in the 1990s, they were back to the Kashmir campaign again. All earlier accords were tossed up in the air and Pakistan, with its new found power of radical militancy, launched itself against India in a big way. Now it had the nukes to go with it and American support.

Now Pakistan is broke and will need a lot of time to get back to the old ways. Mind it you, it is only the military we are dealing with. In about twenty years, if they recover, they are not going to start on a ground. They have the tendency to go back to their old ways. There is too much macho involved. Until they change that, they are just buying time. For them, a war with India never ended. They are inspired by the repeated assaults of Mahud of Ghor who finally managed to break the back of the Indian king.

We need to be aware of that mentality that is still prevalent in Pakistan. So long as that mentality exists, we simply cannot take their peace overtures for granted. Two decades from now, who knows, there might be new issues in India that can be targeted. We cannot afford to lower our guard. Sometimes peace overtures are made to gain something in terms of international support for money and other matters. I do support peace. But I’d be very cautious about Pakistan. Their establishment is completely ruined. Wolves run their affairs under sheep skin.

Posted by KPSingh01 | Report as abusive
 

Typing on my ipad is a bit cumbersome. I have missed out words and mis-spelled. Sorry for the typos.

Posted by KPSingh01 | Report as abusive
 

Ganesh,

I agree that there’s some serious introspection going on in the liberal quarters of the Pakistani society but as we know, Pakistan has become a conservative country & is on it’s way to becoming a radical state where liberalism & even moderation are becoming taboo. Under such circumstances, it’s hard to imagine that the average Pakistani is doing any introspection or soul searching. Instead, unfortunately, I see more of the same belligerence & finger-pointing. I also agree that Pakistan is running out of options on Kashmir but is it’s military establishment ready to accept this reality & make a deal with India? I have not really seen any concilliatory gestures or signs from the top brass of the PA, which would indicate that they are ready to drop their confrontational attitude & come to the table but if you sense that a settlement is on the cards, I sincerely hope that you’re correct.

Posted by Mortal1 | Report as abusive
 

@”Kashmir will be India’s nightmare and you will regret for not getting rid of the dispute, by that time it will be too late” Posted by Umairpk

Sorry buddy, your dream of Kashmir going up in flames might remain a dream, afterall!

‘Thousands of Kashmiri youth attend Indian Army recruitment rally’ – BBC

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-south-as ia-12560761

(Finally, the Indian govt seems to be doing something right in Kashmir)

Posted by Mortal1 | Report as abusive
 

KP, Mortal1,Netizen:
I appreciate the points you make. We do need to be vigilant and never lower the guard against the kind of mentality the Pak establishment possesses. They would go to any lengths to see India harmed. I have heard of a saying that goes something like this: “Burnt the hutment to kill the rat”. They don’t mind destroying the Pak society if it means getting th indians down.

What could be possible suggestions to resolve this situation?

I remember the Americans disbanding the Iraqi Police and army when Saddam was toppled. It led to numerous difficulties later on the law and order front and countless acts of terrorism visited upon the people in Iraq. New recruitment and fresh training of Iraqis has taken heavy toll on the effectiveness of the Police/Military arms of the state. It is still a job-in-hand.

Would the Americans consider something similar in Pakistan (How to enforce it is entirely another matter!)? New education starting at the kindergarten levels and fresh recruitment of disciplined paramilitary/military units will be required. Cleaning up the mess may take 25-30 years. Short of such drastic steps, it is difficult to visualise peace in the region in our lifetimes.

Posted by chidambaram | Report as abusive
 

ome interesting commentary going on, all sorts of speculations and rumors. Has Pakistan Military run out of options? Has US tighten the screws? is Pakistan squeezed? Money is tight so did the world experience a recession its the same everywhere. Is Pakistan broke? Will Pakistan give up Kashmir? Will Pakistan give up its stance vis-a-vis India on all outstanding disputes?
For example will Pakistan give up on its Siachin stance becoz of all these problems?
For anything, my prediction is Pakistan has rather fully mastered these tiny little geo-politics and managed it pretty well. Hats off to our diplomats who do a splendid job, hats off to our politicians who are dumb and lack the committment but still manage it at the end. Guys this is not the end game, what seems to be the end might be a new begining.
For anything, the Raymond Davis case is an example, it seems Pakistan is the only place where CIA is being held accountable. I need Pakistan clearly do need to set its priority straight. If peace with India is in our interest and India is willing to be friendly, then good enough lets do it. Similarly, reduce dependence on US aid and become self sufficient, do not give anyone the excuse that Pakistan’s soil is used for terrorism. Then increase the costs, forge a relationship with US on the basis of equality.
A word on Pakistan military, yes the people of Pakistan stand firmly behind the military and respect it.
All is well, no one is going down. Yes the challenges are enormous, but without challenges life would be dull. Pakistan faces challenges, but does not mean it will give up its stand on issues related to India. Sorry to break anyone’s heart, the are persoanl opinion. I still wish best of luck to everyone. :)

Posted by Umairpk | Report as abusive
 

Mortal:”I also agree that Pakistan is running out of options on Kashmir but is it’s military establishment ready to accept this reality & make a deal with India? I have not really seen any concilliatory gestures or signs from the top brass of the PA”

-Though i do not represent Pak military, but as close i am couple of days back coming back from airport I passed the motorcade of Gen. Kayani who was on his way to Corps headquarter Chaklala. Let me tell you a little secret, first thing, a military always has strategic, tactical and operational plans in place as well as contingencies planned out. Running out of options is not an option for a professional military, the lack of conciliatory gestures on part of PA/ISI is the reason why I claim they have never run out of options. As a neutral observer, for a moment I become an alien, think as a neutral person, not as an Indian or Pakistani taking sides, and I think definitely India is posing some sort of long term threat, either to Baluchistan or just the strategic calculus of Pakistan Army asesses Indian threat to be genuine, that is only thing holding up. I think rather onus is on India to prove otherwise.
I argued this b4, and in response the argument goes, that since Pakistan is nuclear power, Indian threat means nothing. On Baluchsitan the answer is always that no evidence is provided. There are two things here, even though Pakistan is a nuclear power, the cornerstone of Pak nuclear doctrine is to maintain a well trained and organized conventional force to deter aggression, so that nukes are never needed to be used. Therefore, the problem of Indian threat becomes a constant worry for the conventional Army. The SFC (Strategic Force Command) is the last line of defense.
coming to Baluchistan, if RAW is involved there, trust me there will be minimal evidence. Intelligence agencies do not leave paper trail or evidence. Simple as that. Definitely, there are some bottlenecks and roadblocks to peace between India and Pakistan. Only a continuous dialogue, confidence building measures etc can remove those roadblocks.
Most importanlty, India has arrived to a point where it has to make a choice. It has been involved in many wars with Pakistan, after 1971, India thought the rest of Pakistan is only a matter of time before it collapses, but as Pakistan now has become nuclear power. It is now for India to decide how to deal with Pakistan. But be careful, you are dealing with a nuclear power, such countries stand together and do not vanish so easily. But plz i don’t need lecture on USSR, i knew it was a nuke power but vanished.
So, this is it, you decide what you want to do with Pakistan. it is India’s actions that will determine Pakistan’s reaction and not the other way around. Lets see if anyone has any thoughts.

Posted by Umairpk | Report as abusive
 

Ps
Even from a business perspective India and Pakistan remain and will remain competitors. Just as mergers and acquisition talks take place between two companies. Smaller companies cut costs to remain competitive, big giants some time collapse like GM or Ford etc. The business environment matters, if a smaller company has dedicated workforce which is well trained, it becomes a force to its larger competitors.
i see the situation between India and Pakistan in this way, never expect a merger or acquisition. As long as Pakistan can have financial wisdom, good governance, it is not going to become bankrupt or insolvent. Its strength is its people and their ability.

Posted by Umairpk | Report as abusive
 

And you also have to wonder which side oppresses the Kashmiris more:

http://bbc.in/dKo7xL

“The authorities in Muzaffarabad [...] justify such action [arresting pro-independence activists] on the grounds that local laws do not allow pro-independence politics.”

Regards,
Ganesh Prasad

Posted by prasadgc | Report as abusive
 

Umair said:

> I think definitely India is posing some sort of long term threat, either to Baluchistan or just the strategic calculus of Pakistan Army asesses Indian threat to be genuine, that is only thing holding up. I think rather onus is on India to prove otherwise.

What is your response to Air Marshal Asghar Khan’s position that India has never aggressed against Pakistan?

The previous clip I posted were excerpts from a Pakistani series called “India: An Enemy Imagined”, in 6 episodes, each episode consisting of 3 parts: http://bit.ly/e05bqF

I would recommend that you watch all 18 clips patiently. It’s well worth it. I felt the series was very well-produced and fairly balanced, with many nuances of opinion. Maleeha Lodhi is a very articulate hawk, as can be expected. I was pleasantly surprised at the views of Air Marshal Asghar Khan and the LUMS academic Aasim Sajjad. More people on both sides of the border need to watch this.

Regards,
Ganesh Prasad

Posted by prasadgc | Report as abusive
 

This is an excerpt of Prof. Aasim Sajjad’s views from the same documentary: http://bit.ly/gFET7g

Regards,
Ganesh Prasad

Posted by prasadgc | Report as abusive
 

Umairpk: “coming to Baluchistan, if RAW is involved there, trust me there will be minimal evidence. Intelligence agencies do not leave paper trail or evidence. Simple as that.”

Likewise, the whole world knows about the ISI. What amazes me is that you guys campaign about RAW day in and day out, but your ISI is a hundred times worse. It has modeled itself after the CIA or the KGB and has been trained by the CIA during the war against the Soviets. RAW could not even alert anyone about the Mumbai attacks. It cannot knock out Dawood Ibrahim. It this guy was wanted by Mossad, he would have been buried deep underground by now. If you are a country like today’s Japan, with peace and prosperity as the goal, and if India sent in RAW to cause trouble and destabilization, then there will be weight to the claims of injustice from your end. Your ISI has its tentacles far and wide. It was behind the Mumbai attacks. Like you said, intelligence agencies do not leave trails. But we all know who was behind it. ISI/CIA/Mossad etc are not merely intelligence agencies. They are legalized criminal organizations. Some of them stage assassinations, coups, terrorism training etc. RAW was like that in the 1980s. It was due to the circumstances of that time. Things have changed. RAW’s activities have been pulled back considerably in the 21st century. Intelligence gathering will always be going on. All diplomatic missions from all countries are espionage centers.

Generally there is a saying that those who live in glass houses should not throw stones at others. In your country’s case, it is not mere stones. They are boulders. While you are launching boulders towards your neighbors, you are accusing your neighbors of throwing pebbles into your yard. What you are not realizing is that the boulders are slowly weighing your own foundation down.

“Definitely, there are some bottlenecks and roadblocks to peace between India and Pakistan. Only a continuous dialogue, confidence building measures etc can remove those roadblocks.”

India has been sincere. Simla Accord was brushed aside by Pakistan in 1980. When Indian PM went to Lahore, Musharraf launched Kargil attacks. Again when peace initiatives were made, ISI launched Mumbai attacks. What this tells us is that, Pakistan is not one entity. It has several groups and establishments, each with its own foreign policy and agendas. India has made the mistake of dealing with the civilian government, which has no value in Pakistan. Your military wants to deal with us only on war terms. Your ISI is hand in glove with terrorist groups. If you look at past history, Pakistan has made every effort not to make peace with India. And we are fed up with it. There is no hope left in us that anything sincere will come from your end. We will definitely keep some diplomatic initiative towards your country. But we are not expecting anything from it.

“Most importanlty, India has arrived to a point where it has to make a choice. It has been involved in many wars with Pakistan, after 1971, India thought the rest of Pakistan is only a matter of time before it collapses, but as Pakistan now has become nuclear power.”

India is not at the receiving end here. India made the choice in 1971 and cut off one half of Pakistan. It could have accelerated further collapse. You were bailed out by the Americans at that time. They wanted to stage their proxy war against the Soviets after that. If the Soviets had not invaded Afghanistan, your country would have fallen on its own. And now you have become America’s enemy. You are probably relying on China to come and bail you out. Chinese are watching everything carefully. They are worried about another Jasmine revolution erupting in their country. And RAW in those days was engaged in nefarious activities. India’s PM Inder Kumar Gujral pulled everything back out of goodwill. India has not gone back the old ways after that.

“It is now for India to decide how to deal with Pakistan. But be careful, you are dealing with a nuclear power, such countries stand together and do not vanish so easily. But plz i don’t need lecture on USSR, i knew it was a nuke power but vanished.”

You are talking very immaturely. You are not the only nuclear power here. We have nukes too. I am surprised at your belligerence. You are talking like an armed criminal who threatens others because he has grenades covering his whole body. You need to realize that those grenades can explode and tear you to pieces. India is being careful here because we are viewing you exactly the way we would in the case of a dangerously armed criminal.

“So, this is it, you decide what you want to do with Pakistan. it is India’s actions that will determine Pakistan’s reaction and not the other way around. Lets see if anyone has any thoughts.”

India’s actions are not directed towards Pakistan currently. We are only watching the developments inside Pakistan. We are being prepared in case any embers come flying from your side. It is not India, but the whole world has to decide what to do with Pakistan. My recommendation is to restructure the Af-Pak region and get rid off the nukes. Smaller countries in this region would be the practical choice. There are six decades of proof to justify it.

Posted by KPSingh01 | Report as abusive
 

Just an obsrvation!
You guys could keep on debating kashmir or India Pakistan relations and just ignore the artile!

The one thing no one should ignore that Pakstan Army surrendered to the Indian Army without any conditions. Pakistan Govt. is not in a position to stipulate any conditions for settlement with India. Pakistan Army involvement in domestic security matters or helping civilians during floods or involving itself in the American war on terrorism is unlikely to recover their lost dignity. This is their legacy and is going to go down in history with names of the Generals and senior officers involved. The Army is not even able to blame the civilian leaders for the decision was made on the model of ww 2 military text books taught to them by their colonial masters. The ex living Generals should refrain from making wise peace proposals and let the youth of Pakistan regain the dignity for themselves first which their fathers surrendered. The Arab youth have just started the process and the time for the Pakistan youth is slowly coming on the horizon.

Rex Minor

Posted by pakistan | Report as abusive
 

Pakistan: “The ex living Generals should refrain from making wise peace proposals and let the youth of Pakistan regain the dignity for themselves first which their fathers surrendered.”

Why? Is it because truth hurts? No country in South Asia has been as belligerent and war mongering as Pakistan has been. When are you guys going to stop walking with three legs? The colonial British set up Pakistani military with a purpose for their own interests in the region. ISI was set up by the British after Pak military’s birth in 1947. As soon as it was born, it went to war with India. It was like a new wildebeast calf, training its legs after birth.

Pakistan as a nation is only a skin to cover that military. It has been that way ever since. Pakistan as a nation has no meaning or relevance. It is not a nation for Muslims. This truth has been proved beyond doubt when East Pakistan seceded and the Balochi rebellion.

The only thing that has been stable all along has been that military. And its adventure hikes have been encouraged and supported by the colonial and cold war powers. They thought they could slaughter people anywhere and no one would touch them. They have had utter contempt for India. So at the end of it all, everything that is left is the military. The skin has worn out and has leaches and rash all over it.

Pakistan’s military has served its purpose. Russian expansion had been decimated. Colonial power no longer exists. US wants to have nothing to do with this region anymore. So Pak military needs to be dismantled and removed. Until that happens, it will become the eye of the storm and every country will be worried about things getting out of control.

We all know that Pak military armed with its nukes cannot be touched by anyone. The only way to eliminate this sinister cartel is by dismembering the whole region so that it has no justice to exist. And in the bargain, the nukes can be removed. It is going to happen on its own.

“The Arab youth have just started the process and the time for the Pakistan youth is slowly coming on the horizon.”

And it will make Libya resemble a picnic. Brothers might be lobbing nukes at each other. Pakistan is headed the way of Yugoslavia. We are looking forward to the day when the colonial landmine called Pak military disappears.

Posted by KPSingh01 | Report as abusive
 

Umair,

Economic resources are are of paramount importance in order to sustain any kind of conflict & when we say that Pakistan is running out of options, we are mainly referring to those resources. I don’t wish to throw more economic data at you but Pakistan is experiencing a very serious economic condition called “stagflation” & it needs to save every penny that it can. Under such severe circumstances, it would be wise on the part of your generals, to patch up with India & make drastic cuts in defense budget. It’s time for them to decide what’s more important, conflict with India or survival of Pakistan. If they choose to continue on the current trajectory, your country will self-destruct very rapidly. The onus is definetely not on India to prove anything. India is doing just fine & it is Pakistan which is in big trouble here. The sooner your leaders realize this, the better it will be for your country.

Posted by Mortal1 | Report as abusive
 

An interview with a Baloch leader on a Pakistani channel:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HRfxLjEO8 FI

Posted by Mortal1 | Report as abusive
 

Mortal1,
Stagflation is indeed the end game for a nation that does not have a capitalist culture. Stagflation will be impossible to explain to the man on the Pakistani streets. Mr. 10% will be demonized even more than he is now. Stagflation will certainly destabilize Pakistan to dangerous levels.
However, Pakistan is at least two quarters away from stagflation, even if the current state of affairs continue.

Posted by trickey | Report as abusive
 

Rex Minor said:

> The ex living Generals should refrain from making wise peace proposals and let the youth of Pakistan regain the dignity for themselves first which their fathers surrendered.

Is that code for “Don’t listen to Air Marshal Asghar Khan”?

Looks like Rex has paid money to watch a fight and doesn’t want to be disappointed. Looks like he’s also bet on one side.

Regards,
Ganesh Prasad

Posted by prasadgc | Report as abusive
 

@shahidkhan123

Kashmiri “struggle” is “indigenous”, but Bengali genocide, Baluchistan freedom struggle, Pashtunistan struggle, Jinnahpur project, Sindudesh, Sunn-Shia slaughter, Pashtun-Mohajir mutual slaughter in Karachi, ahmedi slaughter with machine guns are all non-indigenous….

Your enlightened wisdom must come from scholarship in “Pakistan studies” textbooks :-)

Specifically you shouldn’t be accused of madarassa education.

Posted by netizen | Report as abusive
 

@Umair

“As a neutral observer, for a moment I become an alien, think as a neutral person, not as an Indian or Pakistani taking sides, and I think definitely India is posing some sort of long term threat, either to Baluchistan or just the strategic calculus of Pakistan Army asesses Indian threat to be genuine, that is only thing holding up. I think rather onus is on India to prove otherwise.

I argued this b4, and in response the argument goes, that since Pakistan is nuclear power, Indian threat means nothing.”

***Umair, you are not neutral, you are back on your favorite topic? Do not spin it. Be honest and face it head on at the right time. The right time for you to respond to one month old debate, which you started BTW, is not now. You are telling only part of the reasons for why India won’t do it. Last time you asked Indians to convince you was few entries back and I gave you one page of reasons [not just nuke reason] why India won’t and cannot monkey around with Pakistan to a degree to split it. Nuke reason was just one and is in fact one of the major ones and read your recent statements you have been saying the same thing that it is not 1971.

Do not throw goody goody lines when when the onus is on you to step up and speak. Also do not take these debates as win or lose situations but for understanding each other. Hit and run guerrilla warfare type debates are of no use nor is bringing a point that has been addressed.

This just tells me people want problems to stay.

Posted by rehmat | Report as abusive
 

@chidambaram
Comparing Iraq with Pakistan seriously underestimates the complexity of the pakistan problem.

I’m afraid prasadgc here is promoting kumbaya optimism. Indians have been burnt repeatedly with this Lahore bus yatra mentality. While idealism should be admired, realism would better serve India and its people.

India-Pakistan disputes are unresolvable. Yes, you read that right, not through blogging, not through “peace talks”.

I have been coming here since Mumbai /Nov 2008. How much global watcher (where is he these days), prasadgc, mortal and KPSingh have
persuaded or influenced Umairpk? Not one bit.

Paks can decide what they want to do. For India, it can only manage the pakistan problem. India has become stronger due to better development of institutions, and economic growth with the opposite the case with Pakistan.

Kashmir “dispute” is a manifestation of the pakistan problem, not the other way around.

Posted by netizen | Report as abusive
 

Guys
I would just state, either all Pakistani corps commanders who meet at GHQ are fools, or Indians are smart. Why on earth does the Pakistan military strategic calculus towards India is negative? Lets talk fact, I don’t have time to research. Can anyone come up with a simple statistic. Tell me how many corps, diviosions, offensive strike corps does Indian Army has? out of total how many are facing towards Pakistan border? As I stated b4, India might not have the intention to committ aggression right now, but certainly possesses the capability. And intention take no time to change. So we are back to square one, pull out Indian Army from Kashmir, withdraw from Siachin, sign a comprehensive peace treaty, resolve Kashmir dispute, Siachin and sir creek, Run Kuch, any pending water disputes, Baghliar dam, respect fully the Indus water treaty. Let us totally work towards peace, nothing short but total normalization in relations. Open up new areas of cooperation, trade, commerce, technology sharing etc.

Regarding stagflation, I did not hear the term before, but know that Pakistan is currently raising $1 billion through bank bonds etc, if I am correct and certainly the economy is frail after the flooding last year and due to security situation last few years FDI investment(foreign) has almost stopped. These require long term reforms, tax collection to fix the economy and painful measures to reduce dependece on IMF. But this particular topic is not regarding macroeconomic indicators, leave it for another time.

Posted by Umairpk | Report as abusive
 

@”I would just state, either all Pakistani corps commanders who meet at GHQ are fools, or Indians are smart. Why on earth does the Pakistan military strategic calculus towards India is negative?” Posted by Umairpk

The track record of the Pakistani army speaks for itself. History is testament to the fact that your military establishment has committed numerous blunders while persuing a futile startegy of confronting India with unprovoked conventional & proxy wars. The result of this self-destructive startegy is for all to see. Has it ever occured to you that your military establishment has deliberately kept the perception of a bogus Indian threat alive, simply because it does not intend to relinquish the power, it has become accustomed to & the material resources which they command? It’s time for you to ponder over this possibility instead of dimissing it as Indian propaganda.

@”Tell me how many corps, diviosions, offensive strike corps does Indian Army has? out of total how many are facing towards Pakistan border? As I stated b4, India might not have the intention to committ aggression right now, but certainly possesses the capability. And intention take no time to change.”

By draining it’s resources on an Indian threat based on it’s capability, don’t you think that you are actually falling prey to an Indian trap? If it’s true, this is the smartest startegy, the Indians have deviced; Sinply keep troops ammassed along the border & let Pakistan bleed to death without going to war. And again, I come back to the same question: Why do your generals care about the capability of the Indian military when you have nukes?

@”These require long term reforms, tax collection to fix the economy and painful measures to reduce dependece on IMF.”

Yes, these are long term solutions BUT there’s a great short term solution with long term reppercussions: Patch up with India & cut your defense budget by 50% within months. The question is, are your generals pragmatic enough to swallow their ego & accept this solution.

Posted by Mortal1 | Report as abusive
 

Umair said:

> pull out Indian Army from Kashmir, withdraw from Siachin, sign a comprehensive peace treaty, resolve Kashmir dispute, Siachin and sir creek, Run Kuch, any pending water disputes, Baghliar dam, respect fully the Indus water treaty.

You have still not explained why India “needs” to do any of these things. India is not the country on the brink of economic disaster.

Regards,
Ganesh Prasad

Posted by prasadgc | Report as abusive
 

It is amazing to see the arrogance and contempt some Pakistanis have. There is little realization that they are on the brink. And they are still talking like some imperialist masters. I think these guys are venting their jealous feelings indirectly. Chest thumping and demanding things helps them console themselves. They know that there is absolutely no match between India and their country. They have somehow grown up with a warped feeling of superiority over India. This complex has been needed to keep their low self esteem covered. Some of them pride themselves in saying that they ruled over India for 800 years, without realizing that their ancestors were the ruled people who converted for various reasons. They are definitely burning with envy as they see India grow in stature while their country has gone from bad to worse in all aspects. They do not realize that it takes hard work and dedication to build a nation. Keeping an enemy at all costs to sustain the unity is a bad approach and there is no realization in them that they are relying on that flimsy reason to keep their frail unity alive. Let them burn. It is not going to change anything. At some point, the Sindhis, Pathans and Balochis will rebel after getting tired of being dragged along towards a path of disaster. When the ship sinks, rats will want to leave. My advance condolences.

Posted by KPSingh01 | Report as abusive
 

> respect fully the Indus water treaty.

As far as I know, India has always honoured the treaty, even during times of war.

Regards,
Ganesh Prasad

Posted by prasadgc | Report as abusive
 

@Umair

“@”I would just state, either all Pakistani corps commanders who meet at GHQ are fools, or Indians are smart. Why on earth does the Pakistan military strategic calculus towards India is negative?”

***You said it right. Pakistani corps commanders are fools. It is a well known fact that Pakistan commanders have failed Pakistan. It is your ordinary soldier that is the bright side for you. Pakistan commanders calculus worked in all wars and shamed Pakistan and your soldier had to save Pakistan’s ass. BTW that included Baloch division in 1965 to save Lahore from advancing Indians.

PA is huge establishment but limited number of officers control and give commands, as it happens in India too. But your top command is just not fit enough to assess the reality of the situations. Despite interacting with Chinese PA generals have not learned to follow that famous Chinese saying that goes something like “do not start a war which you cannot win it”. Their calculus has always been wrong. Thank your soldiers and give hell to PA generals who know more about reals estate and mortgage than strategic military calculus.

Posted by rehmat | Report as abusive
 

@Mortal

“And again, I come back to the same question: Why do your generals care about the capability of the Indian military when you have nukes?”

***You won’t get an answer now although Umair has been saying what Indians say that 1971-type situation is not possible because of nukes.

Posted by rehmat | Report as abusive
 

KP Singh said:

> It is amazing to see the arrogance and contempt some Pakistanis have. There is little realization that they are on the brink.

As Nitin Pai said (http://on.wsj.com/eMX4Fi), Pakistan is “a state that has been on the brink perhaps since the 1950s—so long that its elites have mastered the art of playing from that position.”

You have to admire their chutzpah.

Regards,
Ganesh Prasad

Posted by prasadgc | Report as abusive
 

@Ganesh: Thanks for the link to the WSJ article. I agree with Mr. Pai. Talking with Pakistani leaders is meaningless until they demonstrate sincereity in eliminating India-centric terrorism. Instead efforts should be made to choke their lifeline (funds & resources from the US, Saudi Arabia & China).

Posted by Mortal1 | Report as abusive
 

It’s good to see that there are some young Pakistanis like this fellow, who are doing something constructive with their time. He seems to be the opposite of a few hate mongering e-journalists that we’ve encountered on this blog:

http://kashifhkhan.wordpress.com/

Posted by Mortal1 | Report as abusive
 

I sympathize with the Indians, it is heartening to see their desperation in dealing with Pakistan’s strong military establishment. It would probably have been a good idea to avoid all previous wars so both countries would have better relations. Currently, the hopes remain low, with Pakistani military not in a mood to come to the party things look bad for India. good luck to everyone :)

Posted by Umairpk | Report as abusive
 

@Umair

“It would probably have been a good idea to avoid all previous wars so both countries would have better relations.”
***It is not even a debatable point that Pakistan started those wars, and could have avoided and India-Pak relations would be much better.

“Currently, the hopes remain low, with Pakistani military not in a mood to come to the party things look bad for India. good luck to everyone :-)
***And you are happy with that old PA approach with smiley face. I am confused you want wars or no wars.

Posted by rehmat | Report as abusive
 

Rex, Umair, and anyone else,

If Gaddafi’s troops start to massacre Libyan protesters, should the world intervene militarily to stop him?

This is a trick question, so be careful how you answer it because it could lead to a related question on the Bangladesh genocide…

Regards,
Ganesh Prasad

Posted by prasadgc | Report as abusive
 

Ganesh

“If Gaddafi’s troops start to massacre Libyan protesters, should the world intervene militarily to stop him?”

***LOL Nice way to keep them quiet or expect the question to be put away by saying no direct relation to the entry title.

Posted by rehmat | Report as abusive
 

Umairpk: “I sympathize with the Indians, it is heartening to see their desperation in dealing with Pakistan’s strong military establishment.”

The world deals with drug cartels, terrorist organizations and illegal missions the same way. Your military is a mercenary organization. It has been given a nation to legalize its existence. That’s all. Imagine a drug cartel having a nation for its affairs. Or look at Gadaffi.

“It would probably have been a good idea to avoid all previous wars so both countries would have better relations.”

You have indirectly confirmed with us that your military is the evil here – by initiating not one, but four wars. Now your people are facing the consequences of its actions.

“Currently, the hopes remain low, with Pakistani military not in a mood to come to the party things look bad for India. good luck to everyone”

Of course the hope is low. Your military is now facing the American barrel head on. Criminal outfits face their violent end ultimately. I feel sorry for the people of your so called country for they have been used as sand bags by your military. And even sorrier that there is no realization in any of you that you have been fooled and victimized.

Posted by KPSingh01 | Report as abusive
 

Gansh: “If Gaddafi’s troops start to massacre Libyan protesters, should the world intervene militarily to stop him?”

Definitely. In the case of East Pakistan, the US knew India did the right thing. But due to geo-politics they were against India. When Vietnam invaded Kampuchea to throw out Pol Pot, the US campaigned against it as well. Now things have changed. Libya is in the opposite court. And so is Pakistan.

Posted by KPSingh01 | Report as abusive
 

@”I sympathize with the Indians, it is heartening to see their desperation in dealing with Pakistan’s strong military establishment” Posted by Umairpk

You should reserve that sympathy for your fellow Pakistanis because you guys need it now & in the future. Indians are doing just fine. Their country is growing rapidly & the average Indian has the opportunity to get a decent education & earn a good livelihood. Despite problems, the future of Indians has never looked brighter. In contrast, Pakistan’s is rapidly going down the drain. A stagnant economy & precarious security situation, has resulted in unemployment, inflation, illiteracy & poverty touching all time highs. The future of Pakistanis has never looked dimmer.

@”It would probably have been a good idea to avoid all previous wars so both countries would have better relations”

You should tell that to your stupid generals, who started all those wars in the first place.

@”with Pakistani military not in a mood to come to the party things look bad for India.”

Things look bad for India? how so? As explained above, India is doing just fine. It’s growing rapidly & it’s stature in the world is also rising. Your military establishment has already ruined your country with it’s bone-headed decisions. If it continues it’s belligerent ways, it will only speed up the total collapse of your country & it’s subsequent disintegration. So ultimately, if your generals do not want to come to the table, it won’t affect India but it will be VERY bad for Pakistan. The average Pakistani who has been eating grass for a long time, will not be able to afford that as well. So maybe you guys should start getting used to weeds, mud or stones.

Posted by Mortal1 | Report as abusive
 

“If Gaddafi’s troops start to massacre Libyan protesters, should the world intervene militarily to stop him?”

Absolutely. It’s about time, the world starts intervening to prevent/minimize organized massacres & genocides. Nothing is more important or valuable than human life.

On a different note, why do the Pakistanis have their biggest stadium named after Gaddhafi?
Missiles named after ruthless foreign invaders, stadiums names after brutal foreign dictators….talk about role models!

Posted by Mortal1 | Report as abusive
 

None of the Pakistanis seem to realize that they are being loyal to their military which has brought their country to the brink of collapse. It is their military that was responsible for the genocide and secession of East Pakistan. But they have cleverly deflected the blame towards India and got away with it. It is their military which never allowed democratic and secular systems to grow and mature. They have sucked out all the resources and depleted allocations for development. They have placed their country on war path by engaging in cold war geo-politics, helped radicalize the country, encouraged terrorism and have completely eroded away all the foundations for stability and growth. It is so unfortunate. Pakistan will go the way of North Korea of China steps in and supports them. Or it will go the way of Yugoslavia if the US is involved.

Posted by KPSingh01 | Report as abusive
 

Mortal1 said:

> Missiles named after ruthless foreign invaders, stadiums names after brutal foreign dictators….talk about role models!

When you view everything through the lens of religion (as I find Pakistanis tend to do), invaders who massacred your own kaffir forefathers become “your” heroes, dictators are acceptable as long as they are Muslim, etc.

And on the topic of glorification of criminals, let’s not forget the mausoleum in Lahore to a murderer called “Ghazi” (holy warrior”) Ilm Din. And what was this holy warrior’s claim to fame? He murdered a Hindu publisher called Raj Pal in 1929 because he was the publisher of a book that Muslims considered blasphemous.

The Wikipedia page on him (http://bit.ly/eXLYja) looks like it was written by a sympathiser. Even the celebrated poet Iqbal thought this guy had done something praiseworthy.

I’ve tried to understand this mindset, and this article by Steven Pinker comes closest to explaining it: http://nyti.ms/eqjpr5

Basically, Pinker says that “morality” is a composite judgement made up of 5 strands (harm, fairness, community, authority and purity). For many Muslims, the “authority” strand takes precedence over the “harm” strand, which explains why they think it’s OK to kill someone who insults the prophet. Others not conditioned to think this way are shocked at the response of such people.

Fortunately, there are Pakistanis who disapprove of this lionisation of Ilm Din: http://bit.ly/g8DjCZ

So yes, there are Pakistanis who disapprove of such extremist viewpoints. But it will take a long time, if it happens at all, for more liberal and humane sentiments to prevail in Pakistan.

Regards,
Ganesh Prasad

Posted by prasadgc | Report as abusive
 

@”When you view everything through the lens of religion (as I find Pakistanis tend to do), invaders who massacred your own kaffir forefathers become “your” heroes, dictators are acceptable as long as they are Muslim, etc.” Posted by prasadgc

What I find disturbing, is that even amongst muslims, Pakistanis tend to choose the worst, as role models. Take for instance, the mughal dynasty. Amongst all the mughal emperors, including the great Akbar, which one do the Pakistanis consider as a role model? Aurangzeb, the one who killed his brothers, blinded his father and committed atrocities against hindus & sikhs. Is it a surpirise that the pakistani youth have such a warped thinking!

Posted by Mortal1 | Report as abusive
 

It is typical for ideological systems to twist facts and glorify monsters as heroes. In addition, they develop contempt for others, which enhances the exclusiveness with time. I have read about the various ideological movements in the world and they all follow the same pattern. People are isolated first and indoctrination begins swiftly. At some point, people lose the exposure to the outside world and start repeating the same ideological principles with time. Economic strains provide the necessary breeding ground for things to get worse. At some point, people are fully converted. If you look at North Korea, people have been controlled to such an extent that they consider themselves to be the pure and idealistic society with their leader as a God who has come to protect them and provide for them. Anyone who thinks is swiftly eliminated. And these societies need an external threat or an enemy to keep their conditions sustained at all times. If the conditions change for any reason, then the ideologues trigger violence or a war with others to keep reset everything. If you look at Pakistan, Islamic ideology is a very handy instrument in keeping people isolated from others. India is propped up as an enemy. Kashmir conflict is the engine they have been using to drive their population in the direction they want. And ignorance has been expanded. All curiosity and eagerness to know about India has been prevented by contempt. Negative image of India has helped tremendously. In the 1980s and 1990s, when the going was good, Pakistanis really treated India with utter contempt. And these feelings do not go away easily. When the tide turns, it brings out an immense feeling of frustration. Visit the sites of Aryan nations, Al Qaeda, anti-semitism, Srilankan Tamils, Nazi sympathizers, Afrikaaners etc. You will find a common thread in all of them. Pakistan’s reliance on Islamic isolation is based on a similar approach. All these institutions rely on violence.

Posted by KPSingh01 | Report as abusive
 

KP Singh: Pakistan will go the way of North Korea of China steps in and supports them. Or it will go the way of Yugoslavia if the US is involved.

Unfortunately I am more cynical about it, the state of pakistan I believe will not go either way, Primarily because of the Nuclear arsenal that Pakistan possesses, no country will ever impose its will on pakistani state and even a superpower like US cannot do it . In case of North Korea, the state completely controls all the levers of power unlike pakistan where no entity really controls the state of pakistan. Military though is a dominant power and the major arbiter of the real power in pakistan,it is by no means the only entity of pakistani discourse. Had the military been the only power, we would not have seen dictatorships thrown out realtively peacefully whether its Ayub,yahya or musharraf(with the exception of Zia-ul-Haq), the state of pakistan that finds itself in is even more problamatic. It is infact a chaotic state where no one has any real control to change things for good. As we know that the british granted the state even without necessary democratic institutions have taken root in society, military being the major arbiter of power have controlled all aspects of pakistan. when popular revolutions took root in pakistan demanding for a change in the direction of the state of pakistan. The military passed on the power to democratic forces without giving much authority at the same time. The military also nurtured,trained,assisted the militant culture powered by Extremist and theological Islam which was propogated on the basis of piety and delusions of grandeur which proposed ideal state of islam which are hostile of democracy and dissent against the political class.

The kind of revolutions that we see in Egypt or elsewhere is not possible in pakistan as there are deep vested interests (even a section of middle class) that have profited by the state of pakistan . Every revolution will have a huge presence of the middle class as they drive the dictators out owing to their misrule and unemployment. In pakistan, the military soldiers and their familites and their profiteers are the middle class,media which is controlled by military and the narrative of pakistan which is shown as -the pakistan which is winning against corrupt politicians and becoming true islamist society where no injustice exists or discrimination prevails.
The state of pakistan is going to wither away slowly for decades without failing completely but imposing huge costs on india. The tragedy of pakistan will unravel slowly and painfully perhaps for decades with india bearing most of the cost of the implosion that takes place and there is no escaping from it.

Posted by sensiblepatriot | Report as abusive
 

col ghadaffi and his clan belongs to the underworld. And who from the west went over board to rehablitate him into the internatonal communiy, no others than senior members of the Western Underworld, namely Bush, Blair, Barlsconi and lastly the Bona Parte from France.

Libyan people do not want any international help, they are going to tackle the revlutionary turned colonel to the head of the Devil Mafia syndicate of the world. The good news is that all foreigners blood suckers of the Libyan wealth would have left the lybian space by then!
Mr Ghadafi is currently using the American paranoi of Bin Laden and tons of drugs which are behind the Arab revolution.
Rex Minor

Posted by pakistan | Report as abusive
 

It is difficult for a non muslim to appreciate the psyche of a muslim, more so when the guy is an infidel, atheist or pacifist. Fear me and no one else, says Quraan to the believers! This is the state of mind which s not easy to achieve. The Arab youth revolution from Tunisia to Egypt to Libya and beyond is being driven by this psyche and ghadafi and other desert rats would be washed away in no time.

Rex Minor

Posted by pakistan | Report as abusive
 

Of all the bloggers KP despite his plagliat rhetoric, is the only one who is capable of telling us what the future holds for India? How much of the territory and the number of people are likely to survive after the next clash in the sub continent?

Rex Minor

Posted by pakistan | Report as abusive
 

@”In case I was not clear, here is the value of your opinion —–> 0″ Posted by shahidkhan123

If I was a betting man, I’d bet that the score value of your IQ isn’t much higher than that either.

@”Of all the bloggers KP despite his plagliat rhetoric, is the only one who is capable of telling us what the future holds for India?” Posted by pakistan

KP, this fellow has been warming up to you for some time now. You better watch out! :)

Posted by Mortal1 | Report as abusive
 

“Ghazi, Ghauri, Auragnzeb, Babur, Akbar, We will celebrate who we want, when we want, where we want, how we want irrespective of your ‘thoughtful’ concern.”

And you forgot Gaddaffi cricket stadium in Lahore! Wonder what you are going to call it, now that this name is not fashionable outside of Pakistan. May be you can change it to Ghazi Osama Bin Laden Stadium. Just a suggestion.

Posted by KPSingh01 | Report as abusive
 

Gaddaffi: “Of all the bloggers KP despite his plagliat rhetoric, is the only one who is capable of telling us what the future holds for India?”

What is plagliat, may I know? You are coining new words in every posting of yours. Oxford dictionary cannot keep up.

As far the future of India – it looks very good. If the criminal neighborhood can be cleaned up soon, it will be even brighter.

Posted by KPSingh01 | Report as abusive
 

Wonder when Mumtaz Qadri becomes the President of Pakistan.

Posted by KPSingh01 | Report as abusive
 

@”I CHALLENGE you to even THINK about doing something to us.”

If your chronological age is over 8 years, please accept my heartfelt sympathies. And now that you’ve thrown in your worthless 2 cents, you can go back to watching the cartoon network.

Posted by Mortal1 | Report as abusive
 

@kp
In my obsevation your rhetoric is usually made up of PLAGIATS(mis-spel in my post), the nearest I found in Oxford and Webster is the word ‘PLAGIARISM’.
Besides if you do not understand a word or an idea then why do’nt you move on to what you do follow.

Besides if you want a stadium being given yor name, you only have to pay for the costs of the stadium. I am sure even Pakistan Govt. or even the canadian Govt would be ready to oblige if you come out with the moneten.

Of the moghul kings I remember Babur who said something along the line that enjoy your life since the world will not come again.

Rex Minor

Posted by pakistan | Report as abusive
 

@KP
Since you are not coming out to tell us what the future India would like, then I can tellyou what you have seen in the future, less than one fourth of the current land and most of the population anhilated due to the nuclear conflict! Have a nice day and pray for peace. The prolonged stay of the yanks in the subcontinent is not going to avert the disaster.
Remember also that Libya was given the technology and the components to put together the Nuke Lollies. The underworld Mafia bosses convinced him that in the underworld there are other harmful weapons than the nukes. The European Union allocated him 500 million euros to train and equip his special forces, stregnthened his State security and installed a massive internet gadgets to block the internet for the citizens and to spy on individual citizens. It is this power which is still keepng Ghadaf entrenched in Tripoli!

Stay ahead of the events and not wait for NY Times, Washington Post and the wikileak? Your compatriot from NY is from the past and so are the lot of history you pour out on this blog. People undr thirty could not care less what the ancient bandits did or did not do. We are in 21st century and not responsible for the follies and the achievements of people who are no longer with us.

Rex Minor

Posted by pakistan | Report as abusive
 

@KP
Besides you should be greatful to col. Ghaddafi, who gave employment tomany thousands of Indians(without any caste preference), over one and a half million Egyptans, thousands and thousands of Brits,Germans,Bengalis, tunisians and africans. I wish he had looked after the lbyan folk more and creted local industries to have employment for the youth.

Rex Minor

Posted by pakistan | Report as abusive
 

Pakistan: “Besides if you want a stadium being given yor name, you only have to pay for the costs of the stadium. I am sure even Pakistan Govt. or even the canadian Govt would be ready to oblige if you come out with the moneten.”

So in Pakistan, they just name everything on someone who pays money. So Mahmud of Ghazni, Mahmud of Ghor etc paid money so that Pakistan can name all the North Korean made missiles after them. You have a very nice logic and reasoning that does not follow any logic or reasoning. Gaddaffi sponsored Pakistan’s illegal and clandestine nuclear bomb program. He did that in the hope that Pakistan would deliver the technology to Libya. Unfortunately for him, Pakistan could not do it successfully as the Americans and Europeans cornered Musharraf in New York with all the information. Musharraf had to act in a hurry to cover Pakistan’s tracks. So Lahore cricket stadium was named after Gadhaffi not because he paid money, but because he was looked at with awe once. Now that the tables are turning against him, Pakistanis are in a hurry to disown him. This is typical – jumping ship and switching sides based on which side the wind is blowing. That’s what I was pointing at. Unfortunately it did not penetrate the thick bone covering the head.

Posted by KPSingh01 | Report as abusive
 

Pakistan: “Since you are not coming out to tell us what the future India would like, then I can tellyou what you have seen in the future, less than one fourth of the current land and most of the population anhilated due to the nuclear conflict! Have a nice day and pray for peace. The prolonged stay of the yanks in the subcontinent is not going to avert the disaster.”

This not a forecast. This is your wish. You are burning inside just like every other Pakistani to see India not falling apart and gaining strength. So dream on. I am sure there millions of Pakistanis like you, who wish for the same. Therefore we are justified for our wish and expectation that Pakistan self destructs soon and splinters up into chaotic war zone. This way you brothers can tangle each others’ beards and stay tangled. It will also help the world in coming in and cleaning up all the nukes from your dangerous hands. No country in this world with nuclear weapons have so brazenly declared decimating others. Not even North Korea. Your nukes will not be allowed to stay on your dangerous hands for too long. The world will trigger events inside Pakistan that will allow for it to implode. And the nukes will be removed. You people are too immature and emotional to hold on to such weapons. You have no sense of responsibility or value for the lives of others. Therefore it is only a matter of time before nukes are removed. Your chest thumping will not change the outcome.

Posted by KPSingh01 | Report as abusive
 

Pakistan: “Stay ahead of the events and not wait for NY Times, Washington Post and the wikileak?”

They are far better than the spilling from your bowels.

“Your compatriot from NY is from the past and so are the lot of history you pour out on this blog. People undr thirty could not care less what the ancient bandits did or did not do.”

People under thirty are being manipulated and exploited by bandits of today. If they did not care for others, they will pay the price for it.

Posted by KPSingh01 | Report as abusive
 

Pakistan: “Besides you should be greatful to col. Ghaddafi, who gave employment tomany thousands of Indians(without any caste preference),”

The issue is not with Gadhaffi giving jobs to others. He took everything for himself and left his countrymen poor. He sponsored terrorism and allowed his country to be used for terrorist training, much like your Pakistan. He worked on getting nukes from a rogue nation so that he could hurt humanity. He is a tyrant. Whether he was there or not, jobs would have been given to foreign nationals who have the necessary skills. And it has nothing to do with castes.

“over one and a half million Egyptans, thousands and thousands of Brits,Germans,Bengalis, tunisians and africans.”

See above. Are you sympathizing with him or against him?
May be you should go to Tripoli and fight for him. He has all the machine guns and ammunition waiting for you.

“I wish he had looked after the lbyan folk more and creted local industries to have employment for the youth.”

Tyrants never do such things. Have you seen a wolf sharing something with sheep? Wolves eat sheep.

Posted by KPSingh01 | Report as abusive
 

KP is again on the march with his rhetoic! Now reread what you have put out. Is there anything that you said whch has not been mentioned before? Perhaps one thing that you have go Pakistan mixed up in the saga? You are like a Ranjeet Singh who saw every thing with one eye! This gave him the stregnth not to get confused! Are you in the same analogue state?

Rex Minor

Posted by pakistan | Report as abusive
 

@KP
My forecast is based upon the excerpts of your old post, perhaps you should reread what you poured out on this blog!

Have you forgotten your fears! Ask reuters blog to pull out your statements. Thy can even tell you what your password is in case you have forgotten it!

Rex Minor

Posted by pakistan | Report as abusive
 

Pakistan: “Have you forgotten your fears! Ask reuters blog to pull out your statements. Thy can even tell you what your password is in case you have forgotten it!”

With people like you in the neighborhood, headed by icons like Mumtaz Qadri, one can definitely expect someone to lose his mind and set off utter destruction. That does not mean it is destined to happen. Predicting future is very different from looking at the risks involved. Of course, for people with your primitive and militant mindset they are one and the same.

Posted by KPSingh01 | Report as abusive
 

KPSingh
Let me give you a forecast:

Revolution for India – No such luck
Revolution requires a fearless set of people. You fear everything and make them gods. Swamis will rule you for ever while most of the people sink in swam of filth and poverty.
Mr. Singh take care of your people in Punjab. They are killing their baby girls (850 to 1000 Ratio. Men’s sperm count has dropped below impregnation level. Your people would rather have alcohol and drugs. They are out to kill themselves. Why?

Posted by Matrixx | Report as abusive
 

Shahid:
How about Libya Stadium
or Hindu Kush till Indians become normal humans
or Lanka Stadium for their steadfast support of the game

Posted by Matrixx | Report as abusive
 

OMG, I woke up the trolls!

Posted by KPSingh01 | Report as abusive
 

Troll # 1: “Revolution for India – No such luck
Revolution requires a fearless set of people.”

Revolutions happen when you spin your head fast. Your head is spinning. That’s all. Try stopping and see if the revolutions cease. Or you are too drunk to know if you have legs or you are floating.

I agree that your country has a lot of revolving heads who are blowing themselves up periodically. Looks like their voice is being heard.

There is no need to address the other trolls.

Posted by KPSingh01 | Report as abusive
 

Matrixx said:

> How about Libya Stadium

Seriously great idea. How about “Azad Libya Stadium”? It will appear to show support for the Libyan people but Gaddafi will also be pleased because he understands “Azad Kashmir”.

Regards,
Ganesh Prasad

Posted by prasadgc | Report as abusive
 

KPSingh
Are you having trouble writing your 20000 ch daily quota. You better get going otherwise you won’t get your pay check.
Tell me more about your tribe in Punjab. Why do you fear touching that subject?

Now just redefining words won’t do. Conversations are about ideas which you don’t have any.

Time to go back to school.

Posted by Matrixx | Report as abusive
 

Prasad:
Lahore does not need your help in renaming a stadium but you could help KPSingh in his tight spot.

Prasad you seem like an intelligent person. Are you a Brahman?
Regards

Posted by Matrixx | Report as abusive
 

Ganesh,

Do not respond. The trolls have started breaking wind.

Posted by KPSingh01 | Report as abusive
 

KPSingh.
Are you the gang leader. I thought so.

Posted by Matrixx | Report as abusive
 

The tragedy of pakistan will unravel slowly and painfully perhaps for decades with india bearing most of the cost of the implosion that takes place and there is no escaping from it.

Posted by sensiblepatriot
=

Why would India “bear the cost of the implosion”? I don’t get it.

Posted by netizen | Report as abusive
 

Netizen
Hypothetical statement. In any case if that happens, by that time, India would be sinking filth and poverty and people would welcome any escape from their misery.

Even now one million people escape every year to other countries.

Posted by Matrixx | Report as abusive
 

Looks like some frustrated Pakistanis are feeling compelled to demonstrate as to why their country has become a failed state. There’s no need, the world already knows it to well!

Troll alert: The delusional retard suffering from a severe identity crisis & multiple personality syndrome, is back with a new name!

Posted by Mortal1 | Report as abusive
 

“How are we trolls? We are Pakistanis,”

Ch.. Ch.. Do not insult yourselves. Go back into the crack.

Posted by KPSingh01 | Report as abusive
 

Shahid
Thanks.
I have experience with Indian blogger, you may have the best logical argument, they still won’t buy it. There are a few things they won’t discuss Indian domestic behavior and issues. They won’t discuss any principles they follow and won’t hear anything against Brahmans.
On other blogs, they freely go for name calling.

Posted by Matrixx | Report as abusive
 

“Do it if you have moral strength and not run away like your buddies”

When feral pigs, grunt & snort in the filth of their sty, nobody pays any attention. You successfully made the transition from imbecile to pig, sometime ago & the other fellow has always been one.

Posted by Mortal1 | Report as abusive
 

Mortal
Read my post to Shahid, exactly as predicted regarding name calling. I will not report this abusive post so that others can see it.

Posted by Matrixx | Report as abusive
 

> I have experience with Indian blogger

The thing is, you guys respond immediately and instinctively to insults, but never pause to consider that even when they’re abusing you, people are really trying to give you some sane advice. It betrays a street fighter mentality, definitely not intellectual.

And this is sad, because what is really being said is that if you stop looking for the bad in others and are willing to see others as another set of human beings like yourselves, you can stop the downward spiral and achieve prosperity for your country as well.

(Stop saying the ball is in India’s court. Pakistan is the country going downhill fast, so the ball is really in Pakistan’s court.)

Now petrol prices have gone up by 10%. Fuel is a multiplier in economic terms. Every other good needs to be transported, so an increase in fuel prices will raise the prices of all other goods in turn. Inflation has begun to bite, but who is going to be bitten the worst? Not the arrogant bloggers who studied in English and are experts in sarcasm but the poor and the uneducated. So you elites keep up the hatred and never seriously try to mend fences, and all the rest in your country suffer.

Maybe it’ll take a Middle East-style revolt by the poor and dispossessed to bring your out-of-touch elites to their senses.

Regards,
Ganesh Prasad

Posted by prasadgc | Report as abusive
 

http://www.thehindu.com/opinion/op-ed/ar ticle1498164.ece

Any society can progress only when revolts reject religion and violence. Unfortunately Pakistan does not have courage to reject any of these.

Posted by 777xxx777 | Report as abusive
 

Prasad,
Earlier I said that you seem like an intelligent guy. I take that back.
Have a good day.

Posted by Matrixx | Report as abusive
 

> when indians initiate unprovoked verbal attacks

You’ll find those were themselves retaliatory. “He started it” seems to be everyone’s refrain. Obviously you can’t see it that way. Try to rise above the fray and you will.

> Why not discuss the intolerance of Islam (a subject you brought up) but not juxtapose against mankind’s most vile system: that of Indian Casteism?

You’re obviously not great at comprehension even after reading so much. Nobody denies the evil of casteism. Indians talk about it all the time. It’s you guys who refuse to believe that caste relations are getting better, “lower caste” people in India are gradually getting a better deal and caste itself is slowly going away. In two generations, it may be gone, which is a big social advance for a country which has seen centuries, perhaps millennia, of the caste system. You seem unaware of these changes taking place, and worse, unwilling to consider that they are taking place. You remain fixated on “brahmans” even though brahmans have largely lost political power and have no affirmation action privileges. Your remarks betray a desire to see India as perpetually backward rather than a desire to understand the reality, which is an improving society.

> Your altruistic facade is just a cover for the real reason you are here; To celebrate every misfortune of every man, woman and child in Pakistan.

Nonsense! I hate to bring this up, but I donated (more than once) to Oxfam’s flood relief in Pakistan. I do not celebrate your misfortune! I know many Indians (including commenters here) did the same, so cut us some slack!

Why do we frequent this blog? Pakistan is an important country to us in two ways. The more acute way is exemplified by Mumbai 2008. We need to be acutely aware of your country and its activities because it impacts the survival of our loved ones. The less acute (but more important way in the long run) is that a strong and united South Asia is bigger than China and can be more prosperous than Europe or the US. 1.7 billion people live here, and we have not tapped the synergies of these economies working together. It’s not Indians but Pakistanis who are unwilling to buy into this ideal. It’s always about a list of demands of what India should do, when the obvious solution staring everyone in the face is to just accept the status quo and move on! The Kashmir border has not moved in 62 years and will not move. The weaker country has even less hope of changing it. Can you even accept that it will not change, and make the best of what you can, or will your ‘junoon’ be your undoing? Like the Soviet Union, Pakistan looks like it will bankrupt itself in an arms race with a bigger and faster growing economy. You guys show no awareness of this danger and your talk remains full of bravado and belligerence.

I make a distinction between the elites of Pakistan (who speak on talk shows and write blogs) who can afford to maintain an atmosphere of hatred and the common people who (like everyone else in the world) just want to live a decent life and are generous by nature. I know by reading about the experiences of Indians and Pakistanis who make the effort to travel to the other country that they receive lots of kindness and affection there. The common people are affected by the continuing hostility that only the elites have the luxury of indulging in. You guys can turn on generators during a power cut, and can afford the fuel needed by the generators. Remember that millions of people are paying for your elitist arrogance.

Regards,
Ganesh Prasad

Posted by prasadgc | Report as abusive
 

sensiblepatriot,

Sorry I missed your posting amidst the noise that overwhelmed this forum. Let me respond to some of your points expressed here:

“the state of pakistan I believe will not go either way, Primarily because of the Nuclear arsenal that Pakistan possesses, no country will ever impose its will on pakistani state and even a superpower like US cannot do it”

I don’t think any one in their right mind will ever go in and try wresting the nukes from any nation that possesses them. It is not the question of whether Pakistan should have them or not. If they have made it to where they are by whatever means, it is all right to accept it and move on. The problem is the proximity of the nukes to the rising radicalism in that country. I was shocked to see the youtube videos eulogizing Mumtaz Qadri. Cyanide kept stored in a well secluded area will not do any harm. But cyanide kept close to a bursting river will have a very dangerous consequence. Pakistan is on the brink of instability, economic collapse, militancy and rising fundamentalism. All these are potential fuses that can trigger the danger of nukes going into the hands of the wrong people. In addition, Pakistan has been extremely irresponsible with the technology by selling it to rogue nations as a barter for missiles and money. There are different power centers within Pakistan with different agendas, ideologies and goals. No one knows which one of them is driving everything. At some point, all these power centers might face each other for dominance. And that can increase the risk factor even more. That is the main concern here. If you have explosives stored in a bunker and the building is burning, you will be concerned about the explosives. At some point, they will have to be taken out by all concerned neighbors before the fire gets to them. If we have to remove nukes from Pakistan, I’d vote for removing them from all countries. But Pakistan and North Korea have the highest risk factors today. There is no way anyone can go in and help improve Pakistan either. It has become a whirlpool. Anyone going in there is going to be dragged deep and drowned.

“In case of North Korea, the state completely controls all the levers of power unlike pakistan where no entity really controls the state of pakistan.”

That is a significant factor that intensifies the risk even more. The potential appears very high for fundamentalists to take over power and proliferate all across the system. And they do not care for others or value human lives. Imagine Mullah Omar and Bin Laden in charge of a system like that. They will hit everywhere. The world saw Hitler do the same and it took massive level of death and destruction to end his campaign. Today with nukes, the reach and danger are a million times more magnified.

“Military though is a dominant power and the major arbiter of the real power in pakistan,it is by no means the only entity of pakistani discourse.”

Military currently has all the resources, ammunition and power that other groups do not have. They have one thing or the other and not all. Despite all the economic hardship, Pak military is shielded from all travesty. Its reliance on terrorism to control regional geo-politics will erode its own foundation. Fundamentalism has been propped up by the military and nurtured over thirty years. At some point, the military itself will be consumed by it.

“Had the military been the only power, we would not have seen dictatorships thrown out realtively peacefully whether its Ayub,yahya or musharraf(with the exception of Zia-ul-Haq), the state of pakistan that finds itself in is even more problamatic.”

The military has given up absolute power only when foreign aid became a question. Then a democratic government was set up hurriedly to get the aid. It was never allowed to grow or flourish and all blame was thrown at it. Today, the military has figured out a way to run the country from behind the curtain. This way foreign aid keeps coming and the democratic dummies take all blames. The military bags everything.

“It is infact a chaotic state where no one has any real control to change things for good.”

Therein lies the danger. It is a sign of a nation on the brink. State institutions have no control or power.

“As we know that the british granted the state even without necessary democratic institutions have taken root in society, military being the major arbiter of power have controlled all aspects of pakistan.”

One cannot blame the British for not setting up democratic roots. The sub-continent did have a quasi democratic system in vogue before independence. State assemblies were electing leaders. Exposure was definitely there. India continued with that system and has made it stronger. Pakistan was driven by the rage to dominate the region and military gained from it. And Pakistan was created as a base to launch offensives against an expanding Russian empire. For that a strong military was needed. The world powers therefore made sure that democracy never took roots in Pakistan. It was simply a military garrison that did the proxy work for the world powers. So no nation could emerge over six decades.

“when popular revolutions took root in pakistan demanding for a change in the direction of the state of pakistan. The military passed on the power to democratic forces without giving much authority at the same time.”

That is because Musharraf would have been assassinated if he did not relent. He was having enemies within the military itself. They had enough of him. And military gave up its power hold because of American pressure and the need to put up a democratic facade to receive foreign aid.

“The military also nurtured,trained,assisted the militant culture powered by Extremist and theological Islam which was propogated on the basis of piety and delusions of grandeur which proposed ideal state of islam which are hostile of democracy and dissent against the political class.”

That is unfortunate.

“The kind of revolutions that we see in Egypt or elsewhere is not possible in pakistan as there are deep vested interests (even a section of middle class) that have profited by the state of pakistan.”

There is no single entity to throw out in Pakistan. Like you have said there are various power centers inside Pakistan. A revolution can go either way – beneficial or detrimental. If you look at Russia, the Bolshevik revolution led to Communist rule and misery for 70 years. If you look at China, Mao’s great march led to many decades of misery and poverty. North Korea is another example. Such detrimental revolutions happened when the economy was in shambles and common man had nothing to lose. And none of these countries had a religious fundamentalism to go with their revolutions. Religion is more dangerous than a nuclear weapon. It is difficult to say if Pakistan is going to have another revolution or a civil war. Look at Libya. Its revolution did not go the way of Egypt or Tunisia. It has turned into a civil war. Pakistan is more like Libya. And there is deep ethnic divide in Pakistan that the other countries do not have.

“Every revolution will have a huge presence of the middle class as they drive the dictators out owing to their misrule and unemployment. In pakistan, the military soldiers and their familites and their profiteers are the middle class,media which is controlled by military and the narrative of pakistan which is shown as -the pakistan which is winning against corrupt politicians and becoming true islamist society where no injustice exists or discrimination prevails.
The state of pakistan is going to wither away slowly for decades without failing completely but imposing huge costs on india. The tragedy of pakistan will unravel slowly and painfully perhaps for decades with india bearing most of the cost of the implosion that takes place and there is no escaping from it.”

Economy will trigger everything. Lack of law and order, tribal mentality, backwardness, gun culture, religious extremism etc will only expedite the chaos. Right now Pakistan is being held from the brink by American dollars. Americans are not doing it for Pakistanis. They do not want any collapse while their soldiers are busy in Afghanistan. So Pakistanis should pray that the Americans should stay longer. If they go, they will abandon the region and Pakistan will collapse immediately. American money will dry up. India needs to be watchful of course. Embers will fly out of Pakistan in all directions. But one cannot escape from getting scorched here and there.

Posted by KPSingh01 | Report as abusive
 

Quoting KPSingh “And Pakistan was created as a base to launch offensives against an expanding Russian empire.”

May be. But Pakistanis have always been eager volunteers. The policy of volunteering to be a stooge, rental state of imperial powers was laid down by Jinnahbhai himself.

http://iref.homestead.com/Messiah.html

Margaret Bourke-White was a correspondent and photographer for LIFE magazine during the WW II years. In September 1947, White went to Pakistan. She met Jinnah and wrote about what she found and heard in her book Halfway to Freedom: A Report on the New India,Simon and Schuster, New York, 1949. The following are the excerpts:

QUOTE “What plans did he have for the industrial development of the country? Did he hope to enlist technical or financial assistance from America?

“America needs Pakistan more than Pakistan needs America,” was Jinnah’s reply. “Pakistan is the pivot of the world, as we are placed” — he revolved his long forefinger in bony circles — “the frontier on which the future position of the world revolves.” He leaned toward me, dropping his voice to a confidential note. “Russia,” confided Mr. Jinnah, “is not so very far away.”…..

In the weeks to come I was to hear the Quaid-i-Azam’s thesis echoed by government officials throughout Pakistan. “Surely America will build up our army,” they would say to me. “Surely America will give us loans to keep Russia from walking in.” But when I asked whether there were any signs of Russian infiltration, they would reply almost sadly, as though sorry not to be able to make more of the argument. “No, Russia has shown no signs of being interested in Pakistan.””’

This hope of tapping the U. S. Treasury was voiced so persistently…..” END QUOTE

Posted by netizen | Report as abusive
 

Ganesh,

There’s no point trying to reason with a frustrated hate-mongering bigot, who sees nothing but his own negative reflection in the people he hates. Even his half a dozen odd fake identities (usmaan[something] etc) can not conceal his distinctive hatred & ignorance. Wait for him to start copy-pasting nonsensical stuff.

Posted by Mortal1 | Report as abusive
 

Shahidkhan: “KP singh, why so much hatred against Pakistan, what about the embers in India?”

Everything said is not from a hatred standpoint. I am looking at the overall picture. Why would I hold special hatred towards Pakistan? It is just another neighboring country to us like Nepal, Bangladesh, Burma or Sri Lanka. I do not hate them. Likewise I do not hate Pakistanis. My words might sometimes be venomous, but they do not arise from any hatred. I have tried to educate myself on the today’s events based on past events. I see a direct correlation. Mind you, I come from a very small minority community that has faced persecution in the past as well in the recent past. Yet we are not jumping up and down about a Hindu dominated India decimating us and cleansing us out of existence. Your leaders did. The presence of a Muslim population in India that equals Pakistan negates the unnecessary phobia that was created by your past leaders and sustained to this day. To me it looks very deliberate an effort to keep the frail unity of your country alive. Without this Hindu-phobia running on all cylinders, your country will start collapsing from within. Your ethnic groups are war mongering in nature and do not see eye to eye. The number of gun holders as a percentage of population is very high in Pakistan than in India. Violence can arise very quickly there. People are not pacifist in nature. They are more emotional and reactive. It is very easy to manipulate such people and use their impulsive reaction to advantage by vested groups. Britain exploited this nature in the region that became Pakistan. Jinnah exploited the same to his advantage. Britain had its concerns and goals. Jinnah had his ambition and goals. The two tied in together. Britain propped up Jinnah to trigger violence and allowed that violence to spread. They hurried in to give independence because they knew Jinnah was dying. If independence was delayed by 5 years, Jinnah would have died and Pakistan would not have happened. India leaders wanted a slow transition of power from the British. You need to read a lot of history from independent sources to educate yourself. I have been doing that. So I know clearly what the root cause of today’s issues are and how the plans of past years will not work today. The goals have lost their purpose. Those set those goals are long gone. I am respectful towards those who reciprocate the courtesy. In summary, I have nothing against Pakistanis as people. It is a system that I am against because this system was created for the comfort of a few and it has taken millions of people as fodder to fulfill that goal. You people have been cheated and your emotions have been exploited. Your attention has been turned towards us unnecessarily while your efforts and spirits have been wasted away. Your military, based on my overall understanding, is a mercenary cartel that has catered to the interests of the world powers. And all that is left is your military. The rest of Pakistan is only a skin to cover itself in order to give it the needed legitimacy. That is why there is a famous saying – In Pakistan, the military has the country, whereas in other states, the country has a military.

Hope I have made myself clear.

Posted by KPSingh01 | Report as abusive
 

pakophile is better than pedophile, which I believe can be used to describe a 55 yr old man who married a 6 yr old girl & consumated the marriage when she was 9. Wonder what one would call the people who followed such a man!

Posted by Mortal1 | Report as abusive
 

lemme know when you’re ready to call your prophet a pedophile & I’ll get a haircut!

Posted by Mortal1 | Report as abusive
 

@”You may be broken but Pakistanis [......] will NEVER break”

LMAO! says the citizen of a country, which has been a slave nation since inception & currently lives off the crumbs thrown by others. A failed citizen of a failed state, indeed!

Posted by Mortal1 | Report as abusive
 

@shahidkhan123

@If you Indians are moving away from the darkness of casteism than this goes AGAINST the tenents of your millenium old religious/cultural beliefs.”

***First off you complain about casteism and now you say by doing so is against the basic tenets.

From my little knowledge and many have written on this blog n# of times that religion has nothing to do with casteism. Onec can practice Hinduism without getting into casteism issue. It is no pre-requisite for practicing Hinduism. It is a social issue which needs to and is becoming irrelevant with time due to

There is nothing like the basic tenets here. universal human rights are common sense and in their light lot can be included or excluded/

It is in context of times that it is justified. Even today some would justify it, but they are losing voice as the benefits to lower casts by the constitution have given them real voice, not symbolic.

Posted by rehmat | Report as abusive
 

Shahidkhan: “It’s 1947. If Jinnah and Muslims had not agitated for a separate Pakistan, what would’ve happened in South Asia?”

A lot of good. Millions of Punjabi Sikhs, Christians, Muslims, and Hindus would not have had to migrate from their ancestral homes. Millions would not have lost their lives, or orphaned or lost. Hatred and violence would not have happened. There would have been no manipulation by UK, US and other powers. A united India would have been a neutral country and Soviets and the Americans would have vied with each other to befriend us. A lot of talent could have emerged. Feudal landlords who have destroyed Pakistan would have been reduced. Prosperity would have prevailed. There would have been no Kashmir conflict, no division of people, no Mujahideen, no radicals, no Siachien conflict, no Mumbai attacks – think about that. India opted for a secular democratic structure and people who became citizens of Pakistan could have benefited from that. Muslim population could have become a huge vote block and no one would have messed with that. In our state of Uttar Pradesh, Muslims have a huge clout as a voting block. There would have been no Taliban or Al Qaeda. Art, music, literature and science would have flourished. Imagine getting fruits from Afghanistan selling in the Southern city of Madras! A lot of good would have happened compared to the lot of bad things that have emerged today.

“You are not jumping up and down about hindutva because your precious Indian union annihilated your will for self-determination by decimating your people in 1984 and desecrating your holy places in the most vile manner.”

We have the will power to survive and we do not want waste it on revenge. Our people dominate the Indian military. Our state is one of the most progressive states in the country. Look at the other half of the glass that is filled. Hindutva did not decimate the Sikhs by the way. Those who desecrated the temple were terrorists. It is unfortunate that the temple had to be destroyed in order to decimate them. Those who killed our community members were paid goons unleashed by the Congress party in power, which is an arch enemy of the Hindutva brigade. You need to know more details and facts to connect the dots. You are making wrong conclusions with limited information heard from the streets.

“You are broken, nationless people misdirecting your anger at people who welcome you with open hearts in our country for your pilgrimages.”

We are one of the most enterprising and adaptive people.
We know how to work hard and survive against the odds. If we were all one country, or even if we were friendly neighbors, if we never had to leave each others’ ancestral homes, we all could have visited wherever we want. Your leaders and your military have spoiled all that.

“You may be broken but Pakistanis and Kashmiris and bangladeshis will NEVER break.”

Pakistanis do not exist – there are Sindhis, Punjabis, Pathans and Balochis. That is the reality. Look at Karachi and see how these ethnic groups have turned that city like Beirut. Kashmiris have everything to lose by dividing on religion. They need to look at Pakistan and not get emotional. As far Bangladesh, they were born out of a Pakistan that was broken into two. No one is trying to break them by the way. They are happy and friendly with everyone, including your country.

Posted by KPSingh01 | Report as abusive
 

Mortal1 said:

> Ganesh, there’s no point trying to reason with a frustrated hate-mongering bigot, who sees nothing but his own negative reflection in the people he hates.

Maybe not. But there are lots of more reasonable people silently reading this blog, so it’s important to address any points that are made.

Shahidkhan123 said:

>If you Indians are moving away from the darkness of casteism than this goes AGAINST the tenents of your millenium old religious/cultural beliefs.

You seem unhappy to see such progress. What is your point here? That Hinduism should not evolve? That such evolution makes Hinduism inferior?

>The point is simply this: Who are you to talk and pass judgement on our scriptures?

When your scriptures emphasise faith, charity, abstinence and cross-border brotherhood (albeit only among your faith), nobody has any problem with them. In fact, we would respect such values.

When your scriptures condemn idolatry and unbelief (what business is it of anyone else’s anyway?) or urge jihad against such unbelievers, then we DO care and will pass judgement on such scriptures. There are many who take these instructions literally, so it IS our problem.

If you show intolerance of other beliefs, be prepared to be called out on it. It’s a free world with freedom of expression.

> Only problem is Indians comments have NOTHING to do with security. How does this translate into what we name our buildings, our streets?

You need to chill. I had a laugh about the Gaddafi stadium, and you should too. Everything is not deadly serious.

> India is a threat to us as well. Your country has shown us nothing but belligerence since before our nation was born (i.e. Gurduspur, Ferozpur, Junagarh, Hyderabad, Kashmir, Bantva-Manavadar, Sir Creek, Siachen, Minicoy).

Trapped by history again, with no desire to understand both sides of these issues, and no desire to move on either.

> We think you are a serious threat and will do everyting to protect ourselves from further injustice

The best protection is friendship, but of course that is offensive to consider because India is such a terrible country that needs to right all its wrongs first before we will talk! A circular reasoning that gets us nowhere.

> YET we don’t care what you name your buildings! or price of petrol in India!

Again, chill. I point out the price of petrol in Pakistan as a way to get you to see the urgency of the situation.

>Spoken like a true regional hegemon. The status quo aka the Indian stance? You want us to ignore the holocaust in Kashmir and sell out?

Don’t exaggerate. There has been no “holocaust” in Kashmir. And what sell out? You were stopped from grabbing all of J&K in 1947 and had to be content with AJK and GB. Is it a sellout to be content with what you got by force?

> You want us to ignore the slum that has been created in Siachen?

Read the history. If India had delayed by 4 days, Siachen would have been your slum. Your guys went shopping for winter uniforms at the same time, and the Indians just moved faster.

> You want us to let you encroach on our territory as you see fit?

Proof, please. India did not seize Pakistani territory even in 1971. India did not cross the LoC even during the height of the Kargil war (that you guys launched). So when did India encroach on “your” territory again?

>Weaker people have defeated their bigger oppressors since the beginning of time. Bangladesh, Vietnam, Algeria, Afghanistan. The Kashmiris are no different and no less determined.

First of all, dude, these Kashmiris don’t seem to like you guys any more than they like us (“Azadi” doesn’t mean “we want to join Pakistan”). Perhaps they even like you *less*.

http://bit.ly/ijtwvc
http://bit.ly/i6ofGh

Re. the status quo, there’s an old joke that a psychotic thinks that 2 and 2 make 5. A neurotic knows that 2 and 2 make 4, but he hates it.

I can understand Pakistanis acting like the neurotic in the joke and hating the fact that nothing can change. What I don’t understand is the psychotic belief that something that hasn’t changed in 62 years can suddenly change, when the odds have in fact been moving against you.

1947-48: Grabbed some territory in Kashmir. That was the last gain made.
1965: Launched a war but gained nothing.
(1971 wasn’t about Kashmir)
Late 1980s and 1990s: Sponsored an insurgency but gained nothing.
1984: Tried to grab Siachen but got caught buying winter uniforms and beaten to the punch. Lost Siachen.
1999: Tried to infiltrate NLI soldiers in mufti into Kargil. Gained nothing but international diplomatic isolation.
2010: Paid stone-throwers Rs. 400 each to attack Indian army. Gained nothing.
2011: Youths dropped stones and lined up at Indian army recruitment camp.

No sir, you couldn’t move the border no matter what you tried. Or do you reckon it’s time to try those nuclear-tipped missiles?

>My personal belief is we should not spend any money on anything except increasing our inventory of intra-continental ballistic missles (nuclear tipped of course). The rest of the money should go toward education and infrastructure.

Why waste any money on education and infrastructure, assuming there’s something left? Nuclear tipped missiles are what you need!

(I wish I was a psychologist so I can understand the fascinating workings of your mind.)

Regards,
Ganesh Prasad

Posted by prasadgc | Report as abusive
 

correction:

It is a social issue which needs to and is becoming irrelevant with time due to [universal human rights].

Posted by rehmat | Report as abusive
 

Mortal

That is not classy comment. i do not get expect this from you. hope you know what i mean

Posted by rehmat | Report as abusive
 

Mortal

That is not classy comment. i do not get expect this from you. hope you know what i mean

Posted by rehmat | Report as abusive
 

Shahidkhan123 said:

> You are not jumping up and down about hindutva because your precious Indian union annihilated your will for self-determination by decimating your people in 1984 and desecrating your holy places in the most vile manner.

For what it is worth, most Indians are shocked by and condemn the anti-Sikh riots of 1984 (and the Gujarat riots of 2002). These riots were not spontaneous but were carefully organised by politicians with the help of hired goons. We even know the names of the people who organised these riots. It is a continuing shame that no one has been brought to justice yet, but it will definitely happen one day. Nobody will forget these crimes, and justice will be done.

What should give the Sikh and Muslim victims some comfort is the outrage felt by the majority of people in India, regardless of their religious affiliation. Justice will be done one day.

Nice try, but Pakistani crocodile tears are recognised for what they are.

Regards,
Ganesh Prasad

Posted by prasadgc | Report as abusive
 

My pedophile comment is only meant for the schmuck, who seems to be under the impression that he can attack others’ religions without getting something back in return. My apoligies, if I offended Rehmat, Umair or any other good muslims!

Posted by Mortal1 | Report as abusive
 

@Rehmat: I agree. Although provoked, I should have practised restraint & not stooped to his level. Again, my sincere apologies!

Posted by Mortal1 | Report as abusive
 

Mr.Shahid, on any given day these days can you skip reading a Pakistani newspaper without any violence and killings out of hatred to fellow Muslims(Not Aasia bibi and Ahmedis)??
Just little introspection.Why,what went wrong and where?

Posted by rague | Report as abusive
 

“I called him Pakophile which triggered the disgusting and wretched paedophile attack.”

What triggered my retaliation was your constant & flagarant swiping at KP & me, to get a haircut. As for my feelings about Islam & other religions, my record is out there for all to see. Since I don’t change my ID every quarter, anyone can check.

Posted by Mortal1 | Report as abusive
 

Shahid
These people can’t help themselves. In their heart is deep hatred. I have long experience with them in person. This is what they are.
I have asked some of them to briefly explain what are core essentials of Hindu religion so that I know what is sacred for them. I never got any answer but on the other hand they think they are scholars of Islam.
If you learn what a Brahman is then you know Hinduism.
I feel sorry for KP Singh because he suffers from Stockholm syndrome.

Posted by Matrixx | Report as abusive
 

Mortal1 said:

> What triggered my retaliation was your constant & flagarant swiping at KP & me, to get a haircut.

It’s worth noting that while you immediately apologised for hurting other people’s religious sentiments, no such apology has been forthcoming from the other side.

Shahidkhan123, telling a Sikh to get a haircut is offensive to his religious sentiments too (and that is exactly what you intended, no doubt). Respect has to be mutual, my friend, and you have no business to pretend to be the only one offended.

Regards,
Ganesh Prasad

Posted by prasadgc | Report as abusive
 

Matrixx said:

> I feel sorry for KP Singh because he suffers from Stockholm syndrome.

Your pathetic attempt to drive a wedge between Sikhs and Hindus will not work. It must be very frustrating for you. And what syndrome would you call it if a Baluchi is a patriotic Pakistani? Worse has been done to the Baluchis.

> In their heart is deep hatred. I have long experience with them in person.

50 bucks says that’s a lie. You haven’t ventured out of your ghetto, much less interacted with someone different. Stop reading rupeenews.

> If you learn what a Brahman is then you know Hinduism.

I see. Any similar shortcuts to learning about other religions?

I hope you realise you sound like an idiot.

Regards,
Ganesh Prasad

Posted by prasadgc | Report as abusive
 

Shahidkhan123 said one thing that needs to be acknowledged:

> As for your justice for gujrat… it was served in the form of re-election. Your people have spoken. In Pakistan it is a terrorist hurting civilians. In your country it is your lifelong neighbor that guts you with kitchen knife.

There is some truth in this. Intolerance has increased in parts of India and minorities are more insecure than earlier. I should make it clear that many other people are determined not to let this trend continue. So many civil liberties folk, NGOs and lawyers have worked hard to try and gather evidence about the killings and bring the murderers to justice. It’s a long and hard process beset with many obstacles, and for a while, it looks like the bad guys are on top. But that should not be taken to mean that everyone in the country has become more intolerant. There are much more committed liberal voices too. It would be good to acknowledge this side of India.

Keep in mind that every extremist attack strengthens the extremists on the other side. The moderates get progressively weakened. A very good development was the prompt response of Indian Muslims condemning the Mumbai 2008 attack and refusing to let the terrorists be buried in their graveyards. It brought the communities in India closer together. The acceptance of the Ayodhya verdict by both communities also hopefully shows increasing maturity.

So you are right to point out the vein of bigotry in Hindu society, but don’t try and blow it beyond proportion. Part of it has grown in response to the acts of terrorism sponsored by your beloved army and ISI.

Regards,
Ganesh Prasad

Posted by prasadgc | Report as abusive
 

Just noticed that of the 4 pages full of comments here, the topic of this blog was last discussed somewhere mid-way on the first page!!

After that there has been a free for all. The house rules say “will publish everything that advances the story directly or with relevant tangential information”.

“relevant tangential information” – very very impressive phraseology – but like us South Asians, Reuters too is happy to merely jaw – jaw.

Guys cool off :)

Posted by DaraIndia | Report as abusive
 

All the people talking here of Hinduism, Sikhism and Islam…do anyone of you have really read any holy books of other side’s faith or are you just pouring filth out of your stomachs??

Pakistani people, today your minorities minister is killed because he wanted to modify the blasphemy law in Pakistan so as to reduce sentence of criminal from death sentence to something less harsh. But your fanatic mullahs wanted something else. Do you guys really support such a society with zero tolerance? I don’t know about Muslims’ psyche but Pakistanis’ psyche seems to be “Islam is best and f*** the rest” without realising that Pakistan is at the forefront of defaming Islam and hence a nation of 170 million is collectively criminal under blasphemy law of Pakistan itself.

Posted by 777xxx777 | Report as abusive
 

@”Your pathetic attempt to drive a wedge between Sikhs and Hindus will not work. It must be very frustrating for you.” Posted by prasadgc

Creating wedges between Indians, has been Pakistan’s agenda for quite sometime & it reflects in the comments of many Pakistanis here. They respect sikhs only as long as sikhs hate hindus & India and if they don’t, those sikhs become “broken & nationless people”. Same goes for Indian muslims, as well. You are welcomed with open arms, as long as you are a Dawood Ibrahim but if you are a APJ Abdul Kalam, you are an infedel who sold out to the dirty brahmins. But these pathetic tactics have not & will not work & it’s quite evident that this failure frustrates them no end.

Posted by Mortal1 | Report as abusive
 

Troll # 3: “No brother, it isn’t stockholm syndrome, it’s downs syndrome”

While you brothers are figuring out syndromes for people outside your asylum window, did you hear the news that your brothers have shot dead a Christian politician? When are you guys planning to celebrate? I understand why that crook Jinnah called your asylum “land of the pure.” Pure refers to entirely pure, hard core, fanatic Islamic zealots. The rest are going to be cleansed. Imagine Jinnah today. He would have been whipped for eating pork. He would have been hung for not following “Islamic values.”

Posted by KPSingh01 | Report as abusive
 

Shahidkhan: “During the floods while water swept away babies from the arms of their mothers, as thousands of Pakistanis took their last breath, this MF KP singh was salivating at the imminent destruction of our homeland”

Do not twist facts. You can go back and read the posts during the floods and all of us offered our sympathies and helped wherever we could. As far the imminent destruction of your cave land, I have been saying that even before the floods. And I have said that after the floods as well. The floods came and went. But self destruction process has not ceased in your wonder nation. When Yugoslavia went down the drain, no one was salivating about it. It developed the potential for a splinter and burnt itself out of existence. The same with the USSR. Now Pakistan has developed the same potential. I gain or lose nothing if you guys set fire to your own beards. But as someone interested in world events, I will always point at the truth of what is happening. Burn as much as you want. You can’t change the tide of events.

Posted by KPSingh01 | Report as abusive
 

Psychotic delusional retard, shahidkhan123:

You obviously have trouble interpreting simple english so let me try simplifying it for you. When I said that it’s “Pakistan’s agenda” to create a wedge amongst Indians, I was referring to the Pakistani military establishment.

“Don’t you think that if our purpose in life was to drive a wedge between Indians, it would be on an India-related forum/blog?”

The sad reality is that with illiteracy rate amongst Pakistanis at an all time high (& projected to go higher), there aren’t enough english educated Pakistanis to visit Pakistan related blogs, let alone India related. And no, 1 individual changing identities & posing as 6, does not count as 6.

Posted by Mortal1 | Report as abusive
 

OK, now’s the cue for the Indians to go, “No, we don’t really hate Pakistan, our anger is only directed at your military’s sponsorship of terror against us, we want Pakistan to be prosperous”, etc., etc., and the Pakistanis to respond (to each other) with, “Don’t believe them, brother. I know them very well (I’ve read rupeenews).”

(tu rooTi raho, main manaata rahoon…)

Guess what? We’ve seen this routine before, and we’re not buying it.

The mindset is very clear. Among the hundreds of posts from you, not one has said anything even slightly positive about India or Indians. There is no attempt to understand or to meet the other person halfway. Every overture is rejected. Even donations to Oxfam for flood relief are dismissed as being for Western consumption. (Well, I’m sure as hell not donating to Jamaat Ud-Dawa!)

That’s fine. We’ll continue to comment here on a Pakistan-related blog, because for all the wrong reasons, you’re our most important neighbours. And you can keep spewing bile. I’ll view it as entertainment.

Regards,
Ganesh Prasad

Posted by prasadgc | Report as abusive
 

Shahidkhan: “Excerpts from intellects in just the last two posts.

I rest my case.”

And I agree with all of them.

Posted by KPSingh01 | Report as abusive
 

“I rest my case.”

Ya, you better rest it cuz you don’t have one, in the first place!

Posted by Mortal1 | Report as abusive
 

fortunately, there are some smart & level headed Pakistani intellectuals, who realize the reality:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ufPoTugzu 2c

(urdu/hindi)

Posted by Mortal1 | Report as abusive
 

Mortal
Apologies accepted.

Shahid
I have interacted with hundreds of Sikhs, Hindus, and other religions in India in real life to have any illusions. Real life is what matters to me.

We all make mistakes in rage. Who has not done that on this forum or in real life. A sincere apology means a lot. I am not looking for who started the fight. We should just quit this religion/culture attack.

As 777 said, we are not qualified to speak on all religions. I have done myself that here, but within my limits of being open to correction.

There is an interesting article crying for comments:

http://blogs.reuters.com/pakistan/2011/0 2/19/on-u-s-taliban-talks-look-at-2014-a nd-work-back/?cp=all#comments

Posted by rehmat | Report as abusive
 

“I could neither befriend nor forgive such an egregious offence from….” Posted by shahidkhan123

Save your friendship & forgiveness for someone who gives a rats ass about a pathetic loser like you!

Posted by Mortal1 | Report as abusive
 

@Rehmat: thanks

Posted by Mortal1 | Report as abusive
 

Shahidkhan: “Let me know when the great Indian union arrests and punishes someone for the 1984 anti-sikh riots. Is Jagish Tytler getting a decent pension from GOI? His career really took off after the efficient pogrom in Delhi.”

No let us go back even more. How about the persecution of our Gurus and people by Aurangzeb and his predecessors? Let us start there. What compensation can we be given? How about our people being slaughtered and driven out of what became Pakistan? We lost a lot because Jinnah wanted to be a head of state somehow. Anti Sikh riot is a blot in the history of independent India. Should we take up rocket launchers, machine guns and engage suicide squads? Do two wrongs do a right? This eye for an eye, tooth for tooth policy will not work in today’s world. I definitely want the perpetrators of crimes against humanity punished. How many generals have you guys courtmartialed and hung for the genocide in East Pakistan? We need to progress more and more in all fronts so that gory incidents of the past are not repeated. That is the only solution. Violence leads to bitter memories and those memories are always exploited by future tyrants to divide people on a perpetual basis.

Look at this forum and see the diversity of Indians here – Sikhs, Muslims, Hindus, Southern Indians and many others engage you people here. We have vast differences between us. Yet we have become united for the sake of progress and prosperity. We know that in the future, if we kept up pace with progress, all these differences will become insignificant and we will not be dwelling on petty issues. History should be known in order to progress, not to make a livelihood out of it by destroying future.

Posted by KPSingh01 | Report as abusive
 

And now that the lost case has been rested, the copy-paste spamming begins (just as I had predicted).

Posted by Mortal1 | Report as abusive
 

@shahidkhan
it looks like you think you are being funny and winning arguments.

You are just a fanatic. in reality, you don’t realize what you are doing. you are a great negative publicity for Pakistan…..you are showing every one why your country is going down the toilet.

keep it up. slummies?

as a country you make a living by begging! you talk about slums.

Posted by netizen | Report as abusive
 

BTW any of Pakistanis ever given a thought that how easy it is for India to make Pakistan implode without firing a single bullet or nuke or whatever. If India just announces a super hike in defence budget, just ANNOUNCES; the pakistanis will ACTUALLY start spending more into nukes and military and the economic disaster will spell doom for all Pakistan. Remember what Ronald Reagan did to USSR. Do you think Indian think tank does not know this?? Why has India not done it yet?? Do you still think Indians want Pakistan to implode given that such easy options exist to do so?? Think hard with a positive minds and without hatred.

Posted by 777xxx777 | Report as abusive
 

“Let me know when the great Indian union arrests and punishes someone for the 1984 anti-sikh riots. Is Jagish Tytler getting a decent pension from GOI? His career really took off after the efficient pogrom in Delhi.”

There are many things that Indians can be proud of but there are some shameful things as well. Obviously this falls in the latter catagory. The victims of 1984 & Gujarat riots are awaiting justice, while the perpetrators of those attacks have been rewarded for their crimes. I’m looking forward to the day when power & money can no longer manipulate justice, in India (hopefully it will come in our lifetime).

“keep it up. slummies?”

Most of the people living in slums are hard-working folks who do hard labor to make ends meet. The reason why they are in slums is because they are not fortunate enough to be born with the means & resources, which most of us have been blessed with. They are a zillion times better than the terrorists, who live in mansions, guarded by the ISI. BTW, someone needs to inform the Pakistanis that the biggest slum in asia, happens to be in Karachi, Pakistan.

Posted by Mortal1 | Report as abusive
 

Mortal1 said:

> There are many things that Indians can be proud of but there are some shameful things as well. Obviously this falls in the latter catagory. The victims of 1984 & Gujarat riots are awaiting justice, while the perpetrators of those attacks have been rewarded for their crimes. I’m looking forward to the day when power & money can no longer manipulate justice, in India (hopefully it will come in our lifetime).

Ditto that. One day there will be nemesis for these people. Their names are well-known to all, and will not be forgotten. They will not evade justice forever.

There is a school of thought (Gurcharan Das et al) that says when India becomes more than 50% middle-class, the level of accountability will increase (because the middle-class does not corrupt like the rich, nor is it susceptible to corruption like the poor). This is projected to happen by 2020 for the region west of the “Kanpur-Chennai line” and by 2040 for the remaining parts. So we may have to wait till 2020, but if these people are still around then, they will stand trial for these horrific crimes. It is my earnest wish, and the wish of millions of other Indians as well.

Regards,
Ganesh Prasad

Posted by prasadgc | Report as abusive
 

And before any Pakistani can point it out, the irony has not been lost on me that many Muslims have now been formally convicted for the attack on Hindu pilgrims at Godhra in 2002, an event which set off the infamous Gujarat riots, but obviously no one has been convicted yet for the riots themselves, and there is understandable cynicism that it will ever happen. But watch this space. There is a public conscience in India as well, and every crime will have to be pursued until it is punished. It is just a matter of time.

Regards,
Ganesh Prasad

Posted by prasadgc | Report as abusive
 

Shahidkhan123: “The fact that your father papa singh and his father grandpa singh all said the same thing to then baby singh (kp) is humorous. i understand this is your position but why the redundancy?”

Pappa Singh, Grandpa Singh, baby Singh and all other Singhs are for a progressive, secular society. We are seeing the benefits of it. Twenty odd years ago, things looked very different. India had not been exposed to the goodies of economic liberalization, free enterprise, competition, free media etc. Over the two decades, things have begun to set in and gain momentum that shows in the results. And people have begun to realize that one united nation with multiple groups is a great boon. All we have to do is take the progress to the next level and all petty issues will not arise. People are beginning to see what they get to lose if they isolate themselves, run agitations, fight with everyone and drain everything. Life is busy and people want to live well. This kind of progress will slowly eliminate all social issues like caste prejudice, economic disparity, gender discrimination, illiteracy, backwardness etc. There is a clear demonstration to us Indians on how our recent choices will take us to a better future. No one is going to give that pursuit.

In the case of Pakistan, the people may be as enterprising and full of potential as others. But people have lost their importance. All that is left is a military with no specific goal excepting to cling to power, a feudal system where rich landlords have one foot in London and another in Pakistan, Blinding fundamentalism, kidnappings, murder, minority cleansing, floods, economy in utter shambles, Mullahs, Madrasas, terrorist organizations masquerading as charity organizations, war on the Western border, suicide attacks and what not. Coming out this is going to be very difficult. On top of that, your country is tilting against the USA which has been a major benefactor to your economic survival and international stature. Just building nukes all the way to the end of the sky will lead to the nuke tower collapsing and falling on your own heads. Without any realization of any of these issues, you and your “brothers” are busy trying to nit pick on India in retaliation.

Pointing these issues to you is important because one cannot help being cautious when his neighbor’s house is beginning to burn. And we are telling you to stop the party and start putting that fire down. Instead you are pointing at the stove in our kitchen and saying there is fire in our house too. You should realize how stupid you have become.

Posted by KPSingh01 | Report as abusive
 

@Ganesh: “So we may have to wait till 2020″

2020 is not that bad at all (I had a longer time frame in mind). I hope we can all see those criminals get the retribution, they deserve and avoid future injustices.

Posted by Mortal1 | Report as abusive
 

Retarded jihadi pig, (shahidkhan123 a.k.a mirza usman a.k.a tupak shakir a.k.a shiqaib bhutto a.k.a ???)

I realize that it must be really tough for you to cope with the reality of being a Pakistani in today’s world. Especially for a rabid India hater like you, it must be very frustrating to see India progress, while your failed, rogue & terrorist state is being systematically flushed down the toilet. My sympathies!

I note that since you are not able to copy-paste your nonsensical spam anymore, you are having trouble putting together sentences & are hence, resorting to your same old dim-witted jokes & personal attacks. tsk tsk, Some more sympathies!

Blown any planes or buildings, lately?

Posted by Mortal1 | Report as abusive
 

@shahidkhan123
“i understand this is your position but why the redundancy?”

Because despite understanding our position we do not see any reduction in your hatred filled attitude towards India and its citizens.

Posted by 777xxx777 | Report as abusive
 

Mortal,

He’s pushing your buttons. Try not to get provoked.

(My day job involves dealing with difficult people and negotiating to get things done, so I’ve developed a lot more patience. Plus I’ve also learnt to see things from the other person’s point of view, so I wouldn’t kid myself that I’m always right in an argument. That also helps me be patient when someone says something I disagree with.)

Shahidkhan123 said:

>>> Tell me something. The ‘goody goodies’ are so much in abundance in the paradise that is India that you, bigot and ganesh choose to NOT live there?

Fair question. When I left India in 1995, it was for a materially better life. I also had a couple of brushes with corruption (especially with airport customs when arriving from overseas) that convinced me to stay overseas.

Since then, things have been materially improving in India as well. My parents had just got a phone (land line) in 1995, and their washing machine was also just a couple of years old. Today, the plethora of gadgets and appliances available is unbelievable. Even “poor people” have mobiles, for example.

Today, I’d say what makes me continue to stay overseas are three things:

1. A more relaxed lifestyle. Australia believes in “work/life balance”, which means a strictly 9-5 job with no phone calls after hours or on weekends. I know that in India, your time is not your own, and the office feels free to intrude on your personal space at any time.

2. More respect for human beings as human beings. Contrary to the reports of racist attacks on Indians in Australia, people are actually treated with a great deal of dignity here. I realise this when I visit India and say “thank you” to the waiter or doorman, and people look at me strangely and call me an NRI.

3. More respect for individual freedom and independent thought. I can speak my mind at work or in public. I can challenge my boss’s ideas in an open meeting without repercussions. I will in fact be complimented for my contributions. I have written letters to MPs and even the Prime Minister objecting to policies, and I have received prompt and detailed letters in reply. I don’t have to fear any threat for speaking my mind even on controversial topics. India is still not there in these respects. It’s largely free, but not like in the West. There is also still a tendency for people to make other people’s business their business, such as when Richard Gere kissed Shilpa Shetty and it caused so much offense to some people. I think they need to grow up.

This is not to say that India has not progressed socially. I know that people are more aware of their rights, downtrodden people are more empowered, the Right-to-Information Act has improved transparency and reduced corruption, and so many other things.

So KP is right that India has progressed a lot, not just materially but also in many social aspects, but I’m also happy where I am. No contradiction, really.

Regards,
Ganesh Prasad

Posted by prasadgc | Report as abusive
 

Ganesh,

I’m cool (actually feel sorry for the guy now). Another misperception amongst Pakistanis, seems to be that a large proportion of Indians have migrated. In reality, less than 2% of Indians live abroad, compared to 2.5% of Japanese, 3% of Chinese & 4% of Pakistanis. Over the last decade, as India has progressed, emigration has slowed down considerably & even reverse migration has been taking place. I know that many of my acquaintainces in India, have passed on the opportunity to move to western countries, in the last 5-10 yrs.

Posted by Mortal1 | Report as abusive
 

> Our boorish, unpredictible machismo and magnetic charm can be understandably irresistible: Sania Mirza, Zeenat Aman, Reena Roy, Sushmita Sen…. you know the list.

Sometimes it doesn’t work that well: http://bit.ly/dUQvd0

Got to love the Internet :-).

Regards,
Ganesh Prasad

Posted by prasadgc | Report as abusive
 

Shahidkhan123 said:

> Why is it that ALL the posters here that have repeatedly praised India as an utopian paradise don’t actually LIVE there! This dichotomy was not lost on Ganesh

I did explain why the dichotomy is not a contradiction. And nobody claimed India was a utopian paradise, merely that it has made enormous progress, economically and socially compared to just 20 years ago. Mundane but still remarkable, with the subtext being that Pakistan could also aspire to that sort of future rather than a nuclear-tipped one.

Regards,
Ganesh Prasad

Posted by prasadgc | Report as abusive
 

Mortal1, what you have mentioned is the truth but the problem is that these people “can’t handle the truth” lol.

Posted by black_hawk | Report as abusive
 

“Mortal1, what you have mentioned is the truth but the problem is that these people “can’t handle the truth” lol.” Posted by black_hawk

If you are reffering to, what I think you are, then NO, I was wrong to have said what I did & regret it. I allowed one unruely character to make me lose my composure & in the process, I offended the followers of a perfectly fine religion (many of whom are good & decent people). I condemn my own words & strongly discourage anyone from repeating them.

Posted by Mortal1 | Report as abusive
 

Post Your Comment

We welcome comments that advance the story through relevant opinion, anecdotes, links and data. If you see a comment that you believe is irrelevant or inappropriate, you can flag it to our editors by using the report abuse links. Views expressed in the comments do not represent those of Reuters. For more information on our comment policy, see http://blogs.reuters.com/fulldisclosure/2010/09/27/toward-a-more-thoughtful-conversation-on-stories/
  •