In Pakistan, an assassination and the death of words

March 4, 2011

bhattiWhen I first heard about Shahbaz Bhatti’s assassination, there seemed to be nothing sensible to be said about it.  Not yet another prediction about Pakistan’s growing instability, nor even an outpouring of anger of the kind that followed the killing of Punjab governor Salman Taseer in the English-language media.  The assassination of the Minorities Minister did not appear to portend anything beyond the actual tragedy of his death.  And nor could anyone say it came as a  surprise. A loss of words, then. A painful punctuation mark.

Cafe Pyala has now articulated far better than I could what went through my mind when I first heard about the assassination.

“There was a time when some of us would have leapt at the chance to throw words into this maelstrom, to comment on a senseless tragedy like the one today. As journalists, as commentators, as columnists, it would have been like going to the Promised Land. High profile murder? Check. Law and order issue? Check. Spectre of extremism? Check. Possibility of point scoring against toothless government? Check. Energizing, empowering, emboldening feeling of being part of a struggle that is bigger than one’s self? Check, Check, Check and Check!

“That time is long past.”

It is that loss of words that is perhaps the most troubling. Everyone already knows that publicly challenging the blasphemy laws in Pakistan can be a death sentence.  Everyone already knows the government appeased the religious right by pledging not to amend the laws after Taseer’s death (that appeasement, incidentally, is not unique to the current civilian government — the Musharraf government was also quite clear the laws could not be touched.) Everyone already knows that Pakistan’s minorities are particularly vulnerable (according to The Express Tribune, they comprise almost 10 million people, equal to everyone in Tunisia, or one-and-half times all of Libya. )

Shahbaz Bhatti was a Christian, and wanted a reform of the blasphemy laws. What more was there to say?

And the many bewildering causes of the current state of Pakistan have already been listed and debated so many times. The war in Afghanistan. Pakistan’s difficult relationship with the United States and a history of confrontation with India. Pakistan’s own troubled history and the challenge of finding an identity for itself as a mainly Muslim country that is not Islamist.  Its economic problems, exacerbated by a global financial downturn. The corruption of its elite.  The political shenanigans of an infant democracy in a country dominated by the military. The desensitisation created by near-daily killings along with a tendency for false moral equivalence – each condemnation of a death too often accompanied by a “but”.  What more is there to say?

“Faced with this insidious, creeping bleakness, even the strongest of us might be tempted, fleetingly, to embrace the self-anesthetization, the comfortable numbness, of those who survive by not speaking at all, by not writing at all, by not thinking at all,” wrote Cafe Pyala.  “But we must. We must because there is soft ground beneath us and if we stop, even for a second, to rest or lick our wounds we might sink and be lost.”

The alternative, wrote Nadeem Paracha at Dawn, was to accept a society “that has started to respond enthusiastically to the major symptoms of fascist thought”.

Echoing that theme,  Cyril Almeida, also at Dawn,  wrote that Pakistan was ripe for a demagogue who would offer a facile mix of Islam, nationalism and quick-fix economic promises to ride a populist wave to power.

“Our silence is criminal because one day, there will be no one left to speak out for you or I if we continue to remain silent,” wrote Mehmal Sarfraz at Tehelka.  “We cannot let anyone mute us, come life or death.”

94 comments

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Yes..it is too depressing to read about.

Pakistan has truly become a dystopia.

Why is the 97% majority in possession of the country, all it power apparatus, and after ensuring guaranteed 3rd class citizenship to its 3% minority still be obsessed about this tiny minority? Very bizarre.

Posted by netizen | Report as abusive

Shahidkhan123 said:

> President Zardari/Gilani, are you or the security establishment going to do anything to apprehend these savages from killing our fellow countrymen?

My dear fellow, I must refer you back to your earlier comment:

> We must curtail all extermists and terrorists and wipe this scourge from our hospitable land. We should focus our attention only on legitimate freedom fighters like Kashmiris fighting for territory considered disputed by every country in the world except 1…

Surely you know that one man’s terrorist is another man’s freedom fighter. Your comments show you to be an intelligent, articulate man with a sharp sense of humour. Can you not see the connection here?

Violence is violence is violence. You cannot support it here and suppress it there. The tragic belief that you can carry out this balancing act is responsible for Pakistan’s situation.

Let me also quote another comment of yours from an earlier post:

> I could neither befriend nor forgive such an egregious offence from such an unrepentant bigot.

And this was after the gentleman in question had apologised.

It all points to a hard, unforgiving heart and a willingness to support violence in support of a cause you consider just. If you are representative of the average Pakistani, it explains the situation in your country very well.

Sorry if this hurts, but rather than address messrs. Zardari or Gilani, I suggest you address the mirror.

Regards,
Ganesh Prasad

Posted by prasadgc | Report as abusive

Did Winston Churchill ever think about the long term repercussions of his bigoted and prejudiced views about the “savages” in the sub-continent? Pakistan owes its existence to this man. While he campaigned against the Nazi Germany for freedom of his people, he did not hesitate supporting religious chauvinism and fascism in the sub-continent. The then Governor general of India, Linlithgow, who reported to Churchill, did everything he could to prevent the secularists from gaining upper hand in the sub-continent. Little did these people knew how dangerous it is to leave mines in this part of the world.

Did Jinnah even think for a moment about the long term repercussions of his decision and actions? How cleverly he manipulated the British sentiments to his advantage with the single goal of becoming a head of state! Did he live to see what his legacy led to?

Look at the tragedy of Pakistan today. All is left is a military and a rag tag bunch of terrorist organizations working under its wings. It is now perceived as a global threat rather than a nation. One by one the truth of the underlying malice is beginning to emerge.

Countries should never be formed based on religion and religious bigotry. Such nations have no goal or agenda beyond carving out a border and secluding themselves in it. Much like Jim Jones who took 900 people with him in George Town, Jinnah has taken these people to their tragic end.

Pakistan’s history is a lesson to all. Do not encourage forming nations based on long standing ideologies. Soviet Union has been tried. Nazi Germany has been tried. And now Islamic Pakistan is the next one to go down in history. Religions span across national borders. Religions cannot be used to create separate borders. It will always lead to what we see in Pakistan today and what the world saw in Nazi Germany. Pakistan has already done the same once in 1971. The nation with the name, “Land of the pure” is trying to cleanse itself of all minorities so that it can appear “puritanical”.

I wish there is at least some regret in the hearts of the British and the Americans for pushing Pakistan this far into the danger zone for their interests. Now their own homes are under threat. There is no use condemning the acts of bigots. That’s what they do. We should never allow them to rise to power.

Posted by KPSingh01 | Report as abusive

[...] more here: In Pakistan, an assassination and the death of words Posted in Pakistan, Pakistan: Now or Never, Uncategorized, bhatti, blasphemy laws, religious [...]

Read a most telling comment on this tragedy.

It expressed surprise that a country which itself was born on the demand by people that they could not expect justice as a minority in another country, treat its own miniscule minority so violently.

One can only express anguish and wonder what next? Because what happens next will have a cascading effect on others too, not just on Pakistan.

Posted by DaraIndia | Report as abusive

Shahidkhan: “You know even amongst enemies, there is a code that when an honorable man passes away, condolences are offered.”

It depends up on to whom he was an honorable man. If someone’s power ambition led to the deaths of millions, displacement, misery and bitter memories, such people are criminals at best and do not deserved to be ranked amongst really honorable people. Jinnah was no different than the Narendra Modi that you guys do not fail to despise. He ranks with people who instigate violence and use to it their advantage – Hitler, Stalin, Idi Amin, Gadhaffi, Mugabe etc compare with Jinnah and these are not honorable men. Even Bin Laden is honorable to some people. But I can only talk from my standpoint. I do not claim to represent all Indians. Therefore if you conclude that all Indians share my views based on what I write, the fault lies with your extrapolation and not mine.

“But you Indians are so despicable that you can only use this opportunity to celebrate our loss. No opportunity is missed to condemn an entire nation.”

I am sure you do the same every time we have a downfall. When I was a grad student in the US in the 1990s, Kashmir Jihad was in full swing. I used to read comments by your Pakistani brothers on the usenet which would list every calamity in India and celebrate it. If you celebrate our loss, expect to get the same courtesy returned.

“Have you ever thought for a minute that many people of pakistan are upset by this event?”

Really? Is that why so many lawyers came forward to represent Mumtaz Qadri free of cost? Is that why blasphemy law revocation was dropped due to “popular demand”? Tell your stories to someone else. We all can see for ourselves.

“I will never understand the shear INTENSITY of indian hatred.”

It is not hatred. It is you who believes strongly that Indians hate you. Therefore anything said is immediately misconstrued as hate. You guys have lived too long in hatred and therefore everything seems like hate. The problem lies in your head and you need to get it checked.

“We consider you to be a formidable and powerful enemy but we don’t hate you even 1/1000th as much as you hate us.”

That clearly tells where your perspective lies. If you consider someone as an enemy when he or she is not, the problem lies with you and not the others. Your countrymen seem fixated with the belief that India is needed as an enemy at all times, at all costs and not as a neighbor. You throw stones into our house and when we protest, you call the police and scream about being threatened. Stop throwing stones and we will leave you alone. As far as 1/1000th of hatred, I do not know how you come up with such quantification. Your words in this forum are not courteous and full of love either. You have no idea how you sound while you are accusing others. Look at yourself in the mirror first before you call someone else’s face as being painted black.

Posted by KPSingh01 | Report as abusive

I am at loss to express myself on the death, and so are all the authors listed in the article, including the author herself.

The guys who killed are gaining control despite appeasement post Taseer assassination. It is not the death of one human, Shahbaz Bhattti, here, it is the collective death of people like him, who will not dare to raise their voice even in public just casually, much less influencing the policy.

Cafe Pyala says:
“the political shenanigans of an infant democracy in a country dominated by the military. The desensitisation created by near-daily killings along with a tendency for false moral equivalence – each condemnation of a death too often accompanied by a “but”. What more is there to say?”

***Shahid, this is no different than what Indians have been saying here (i understand why the repetition, you stressed earlier). I have mentioned several times before that “but” has allowed us to explain a number of things. I can understand your position on several issues, that does not mean you support “violence”.

“President Zardari/Gilani, are you or the security establishment going to do anything to apprehend these savages from killing our fellow countrymen?”
***Are you worried about your countrymen only or also innocents anywhere outside Pakistan.

Supporting Kashmiris is a freedom of expression you or me have and are allowed. Do we have a responsibility too? Are you reasoning that Kasab (a example of Kashmiri freedom fighter from Faridkot, Pakistan) was or others like him are justified to fight against India? Clearly, PA/ISI/Pakistan has funded/supported violence by Kasab-like means in India and you should express as much hatred for them as you have for those who kill your “fellow countrymen”. They also have funded Kashmiris to go at India. One can support the cause but not the means. You and Indians would be one the same page if we can understand these grey areas.

Shahid,
Without doubt, agreed on selective groups in India who killed 2000 Muslims and for those Muslims who killed Hindus.
If we cut out anger and listen to each other, we will find that a majority of us have similar views.

In Gujarat, I am waiting for the complete justice to be done, not half.

Peace!

Posted by rehmat | Report as abusive

Rehmat said:

> In Gujarat, I am waiting for the complete justice to be done, not half.

I know what you mean and I am 100% with you. If the culprits behind the 2002 riots (all the way to the top) are not brought to justice, then the Godhra verdict will not be half-justice but injustice.

Regards,
Ganesh Prasad

Posted by prasadgc | Report as abusive

Shahidkhan123,

I’m not being disingenuous. It’s you who persist in being both disingenuous and blind.

1. You *are* being unforgiving. This person clearly expressed his regret for crossing a line and explained that your provocation made him forget himself for a moment. You could have been gracious in accepting his apology like Rehmat did but chose not to do so. Make a note of this, because a hard attitude prevents reconciliation, not only with external parties you consider enemies, but within your own country. Taseer and Bhatti are just the latest victims of such an attitude, so it’s disingenuous on *your* part to condemn either murder when the same attitude of intolerance is in you as well.

2. You easily quote the examples of Subhash Chandra Bose and Nelson Mandela to justify violence in Kashmir. Did you know that the people who served in Bose’s Indian National Army (INA) and fought against the British were not allowed to serve in independent India’s army? Their cause may have been just, but their means were not, so they had to pay the price for it. Similarly, Mandela spent 27 years in prison for an act of violence, not for peaceful protest.

And you are again being disingenuous or perhaps superbly hypocritical by including Mujib-ur-Rahman in your list. Are you blithely unaware of which entity he fought against? So you accept the legitimacy of Pakistan’s split in 1971! It’s amazing where some misplaced rhetoric will lead.

Shahid, you’re amazingly articulate with a cruel wit (although sometimes verbose to the point of diarrhoea). However, simple analogies seem to escape you. You also betray a curious inability to extrapolate a graph and see trends. Like the dead people in The Sixth Sense, you see what you want to see.

I hope you will take time to ponder before you dash off another clever reply.

Regards,
Ganesh Prasad

Posted by prasadgc | Report as abusive

“your turban is still in 1947″

“I can’t judge Rehmat, this brother lives in Gujrat which is a lot like a Jew living in Prussian hinterland in the 1930s”

-Posted by shahidkhan123

Look at this vile fellow’s racism, hatred and bigotry. He is a fine product of Pakistani education system.

If you are wondering why Pakistan is in its present state, shahidkhan here is a great illustration.

Posted by netizen | Report as abusive

The largest genocide of muslims EVER, in the last 1400 years was carried out by the Muslim army of Islamic Republic of Pakistan.

When it comes to numbers, it will take several hundred more Gujarat riots to even remotely come close to the number of Muslims killed by the Muslim army of Pakistan in Bengal in 1971.

http://www.genocidebangladesh.org/

No it was not “civil war”, unarmed Muslims were slaughtered in mass scale by the Muslim army of Islamic Republic of Pakistan.

Posted by netizen | Report as abusive

Shahidkhan123 said:

>> Ganesh, that one stung. I hope you are happy.

Well, looking back again on your posts, I realise that the one where you copied the comments of Kashmiris was the only one that I could call overly long, so I guess I should take back the “verbose to the point of diarrhoea” comment. But you are cruel in your wit, I hope you realise. You’re sensitive about some comments to the extent that you cannot forgive, yet you casually make personal remarks that others could find hurtful. Glass houses…

> Yes I do [accept the legitimacy of Bangladesh's split from Pakisan in 1971]. You just think all pakistani have horns and eat little babies because bharti media such as AajTak (sic) has molded your thinking about your blood brothers/sisters in pakistan.

>> Yes I do. You just think all pakistani have horns and eat little babies because bharti media such as AajTak (sic) has molded your thinking about your blood brothers/sisters in pakistan.

Your acceptance of this *is* a surprise. Because if Mujib-ur-Rahman’s struggle was legitimate, then India was justified in helping him against the Pakistani army. Yet Pakistanis (even without the horns and the baby food) have no hesitation blaming India for the break-up of their motherland. Umair (wonder where he is now) has harped on this in every post to “prove” that India poses an existential threat to Pakistan. We could actually make some progress on that existential threat thing if you’re really willing to revisit the causes of 1971. And if you’re also saying Indians and Pakistanis are blood brothers/sisters, that’s positively an occasion for celebration. So many of you compatriots here have stressed your racial, cultural and other differences from us. You truly are a man of surprises, Mr. Shahid Khan. I hope I’m not disappointed when I read your very next post…

And by the way, I don’t have access to Aaj Tak or any Indian channel where I live. I try and get my infomation from that great big media house in the cloud, the web. You’ll be surprised to hear that I consider Dawn a whole lot more polished, professional and reasonable than most Indian media.

> Rehmat, Kasab fits my definition of a terrorist and should be hanged like a common criminal. If he had gone to occupied kashmir to fight the soldiers murdering and raping CIVILIANS then he could have been termed a freedom fighter.

Two comments on this.

One, it has taken a long time and a lot of water has flowed down the river called denial before the scene today where a Pakistani is willing to accept (1) that the Mumbai 2008 attacks were not in fact a false flag operation carried out by RAW/CIA/Mossad, (2) that the killers were in fact Pakistanis and (3) Kasab is a terrorist (yeah, the T word at last). But thankfully, we’ve reached a better place in terms of acceptance.

Two, not every killing in Kashmir can be blamed on the army and CRPF. There are examples (I’ve read them but will dig up the links for you soon) when Kashmiri leaders have themselves admitted that some killings earlier blamed on the Indian armed forces turned out to have been committed by terrorists/militants/freedom fighters. *You* seem to be the victim of media propaganda here in that you are too willing to assume guilt on the part of the Indians.

My position on atrocities is the same as the one on communal riots. Those responsible must be caught and punished. I understand that many Indian soldiers have been court-martialled by the army for their crimes, and I endorse that as the mechanism to redress injustice, not terrorism. It would be good if you had a similar position on justice without leaping to conclusions on guilt or justifying terror attacks on the army as a whole.

As to why the Indian army has to be 500,000-700,000 strong in Kashmir in the first place, the question is similar to why supervillains are only found in superhero comics. Pakistan has time and again demonstrated a willingness to use force in its argument with India over Kashmir, whether by infiltration (1947-48, 1999), support for insurgency (1980s and 90s) or outright war (1965). Your most recent statements show that an average Pakistani (and I realise I am doing you a discourtesy by calling you just “average” :-)) still believes that such violence is justified, which just keeps the cycle going. India would be stupid not to have a strong army presence in such a situation. Look at the converse – Pakistan refuses to move divisions to the Eastern border citing the threat from India, even though India has been scrupulous in respecting the LoC even during Kargil.

> I can’t judge Rehmat, this brother lives in Gujrat which is a lot like a Jew living in Prussian hinterland in the 1930s.

You’re again being disingenuous. Rehmat was under no real pressure to forgive anyone. None of us really knows where he lives (it may or may not be Gujarat) and he enjoys the anonymity of the Internet as much as anyone else here (except perhaps yours truly, who has perhaps been too candid about his identity and location). I would say it was his own choice made out of wisdom. You’ll probably refer to a pervasive culture of subjugation that necessarily surrounds a Muslim in a dar-ul-harab, but you should also consider for a moment whether there really is something like a secular society where diversity and peaceful coexistence have been a feature for so long that its citizens have truly come to appreciate the value of mutual tolerance and give-and-take. I would urge you to set aside any conditioning you have and consider that possibility for just a few moments.

> You think I am going to just forgive a scumbag that called our prophet a pedophile?

It’s entirely your choice, which is what I keep pointing out. One of the things I’ve learnt during my wanderings through cyberspace is the episode of the prophet in which an old woman threw garbage on him from her house every day as he walked on the street below, and what he did about it. You know perfectly well what that story was meant to illustrate. Why not follow the example of the prophet in that parable rather than your own feelings?

> [...] Jinnah did not look up addresses of sikhs and incite muslims to hunt them down.

If you research Direct Action Day (1946), assuming you’ve never heard of it before, you may be dismayed. Perhaps Suhrawardy had more blood on his hands during that shameful period, but there was no doubt that (a) Jinnah knew what Direct Action Day would lead to and in fact counted on it, an (b) did plan its execution in meticulous detail.

> There is one principle to which we can all agree: None of us have the slightest bit of interest in what netizen has to say.

Sorry, I disagree. He (or she) brings up topics that you find disagreeable, but the Voltaire principle should apply here – “I disagree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it”.

(Apologies in advance for *my* verbal diarrhoea, but you had so many posts that I wanted to respond to.)

Regards,
Ganesh Prasad

Posted by prasadgc | Report as abusive

I said:

> You’ll be surprised to hear that I consider Dawn a whole lot more polished, professional and reasonable than most Indian media.

And if I had to present an award for overall journalistic excellence, it would go to Al Jazeera.

Regards,
Ganesh Prasad

Posted by prasadgc | Report as abusive

Shahid

You are VERY smart guy. But you assume a lot of things and explain issues based on that.

I find I can be frank with you since you can take it.

“Rehmat, the way you so easily forgave and supported Mordor shows me the compromises you have had to make and the values you have had to abandon to continue living in your self-imposed bubble.”
***Last time, you did much better by leaving this issue to me. You are smart enough to know that there are a number of ways to say that “I am pissed off, do not do it next time”. I have not been writing on this blog lately, and the comment I did not like made me write a sentence. He apologized, I accepted. I had a number of options, including the one you picked. I do not see Prophet Muhamad (PBUH) disliking what I said. Prophet was all for forgiveness, including that to non-Muslims.

In the same post you say you do not judge me and here you are judging me saying that I am making “compromises and abandoning values and living in a self-imposed bubble.” Alternatively, you can think that I have different experiences than you have and living in a culture and interacted with real people which you might have just read about. You living in Pakistan think differently from your other country fellows, even including Umair, on issues like 1971.

There is another set of values which assassins of Taseer and Bhatti have and are ready to kill a person for blasphemy. Why don’t you agree with them, and are ready to leave it at not befriending a person? They, you and I represent black, grey and white shades on this issue.

“I can’t judge Rehmat, this brother lives in Gujrat which is a lot like a Jew living in Prussian hinterland in the 1930s. You think I am going to just forgive a scumbag that called our prophet a pedophile??? (astgf).”

***Rest assured, I am under no pressure. You are the first one to ask or try to guess my habitat. What you said is precisely one of the reasons I do not tell that. This is not the first time that I have seen such comment as some sort of arguments.

“Rehmat, Kasab fits my definition of a terrorist and should be hanged like a common criminal.”
***Good to know that.

“If he had gone to occupied kashmir to fight the soldiers murdering and raping CIVILIANS then he could have been termed a freedom fighter.”
***So you justify LeT and other such groups, sponsored by Pakistan in Kashmir? OK

About the big “If”:

Ask PA/ISI to impress upon LeT and other gangs to stick to Kashmir and fight Indian Army and stop killing our innocent brothers in collateral damage elsewhere (40 Muslims dead in Mumbai). Until then, let us categorize them as terrorists. I consider them as “non-state-sponsored terroism by PA/ISI” in India which led to what you say “state-sponsored terrorism by Indian Army”.

Peace!

Posted by rehmat | Report as abusive

Shahidkhan123 said:

> Ganesh, you singlehandedly destroyed the dreams and aspirations of a billion people and the only opportunity for peace in south asia. I hope you can live with yourself.

It is a heavy burden I bear but I think I will somehow be able to get to sleep tonight. Thanks for your concern and support.

Regards,
Ganesh Prasad

Posted by prasadgc | Report as abusive

Shahidkhan123 said:

> I hate to disappoint but I was talking to Rehmat. I believe we Muslims of South Asia are one culture, one big extended family and fraternity.

Of course. Universal human brotherhood is a bridge too far.

> That does not mean that if India treated Pakistan like a little brother that we would not reciprocate.

Ah, but little brother also wants “strategic parity” with big brother, which complicates matters. Here’s some pop psychology for you:

“In constant attempts to come out of the older sibling’s shadow, second borns develop a strong sense of determination. They also have an almost unhealthy competition level that usually boils down into rivalry. The second child are sensitive to injustices and unfairness, this is due to their own felt inadequacies.”
- http://bit.ly/hAIovu

“If the first born is responsible, then there is every chance number two will be a terrorist.”
- http://bit.ly/h0JkxT

“However, the difficult position of the second born is that they are the first comparison to their overachieving older sibling. This makes them more competitive and sets them apart from being just a middle child. They constantly seek to outdo their older brother or sister and to be on the winning end of the comparison.”
- http://bit.ly/f4u4D1

“In many ways, second borns are just the opposite of first borns. They see the competition with the first born and decide to react directly contrary to the first born.”
- http://bit.ly/hCQypx

No, let’s not go there. If countries behaved like countries and not like siblings, the world might be better off.

> An attack by freedom fighters on a professionaly trained occupational army on a disputed territory is not considered terrorism in even international laws.

Tell that to the judge ;-)

> If you don’t leave, we will attack again once things stabilize in Pakistan.

“To the last, I grapple with thee; From Hell’s heart, I stab at thee; For hate’s sake, I spit my last breath at thee”

You do know what happened to Captain Ahab, right? If Melville had known the word, he might have subtitled his novel “Junoon”.

> I did not see Jinnah culpability in this matter [Direct Action Day] compared to Gujrat riots.

Like I said before, butter wouldn’t melt in your mouth.

I think I must enjoy futile debate.

Regards,
Ganesh Prasad

Posted by prasadgc | Report as abusive

“If the first born is responsible, then there is every chance number two will be a terrorist.”
- http://bit.ly/h0JkxT

Ouch !!!

Posted by punjabiyaar | Report as abusive

A very good narrative and a very proper comments in the article. To hav Sardari and Gillani as the heads of the Govt. and Kyani as the head of the army is a trajedy of a great magnitude. How could the minister be so scruplelose to walk about in a city of death without any security? I watched the minister interview with France24 journalist and he was so vibrant, full of respect for Islam and the Prophet(PBUH)! He died because of lack of security and not because of his views! The Govt. has no morals to stay in power. And the show the Indian bloggers have put on is DISGUSTING, to say the least. No other people have everbeen able to control the sikhs other than the Pashtoons, there are many sikhs who still live there. They are Zombies, and live in the past; what you see of them are hollowgrams, wandering around lost in the world of 21st century. Pakistan citizens should not let their blood boil, they themselves are victims. Victims of the Hindu caste system which has classified them as warriors, not suitable for any decent profession other than to live and die in violence. As part of their religion they need to spend some time in caves; and where do you find caves in India? In the USA and Canada they get knocked off without any notice! I have more sympathy with these folks than others from south East Asia.

Rex Minor

PS
The authr should know that no one, military or a civilian elite can walk about in Islamabad or Pakhtoonkhwa without any security.

Posted by pakistan | Report as abusive

Who is next? Sherry Rehman? Can she get the hell out of that hell hole before it is too late? People like Pervez Hoodbhoy, Nadeem Paracha should look for avenues to migrate out and live in safety. They can still love their country and work for it. If that crook Musharraf can sit in comfort in London, these people need their security and well being too. MQM leader is running his party in Pakistan while living in the safety of London.

Posted by KPSingh01 | Report as abusive

@shahidkhan

Pakistan is at war with itself!! There are no external enemies: Pakistan military is not even able to protect itself except in the fortified cantonments! This is worst than the colonial times! There are no radicals, fanatics or mindless fanatics. From Tunisia to Egypt, yemen and beyond the youth under twenty five is rising for DIGNITY, protection of family and improvement in economic conditions to make a living. Sooner than we know Pakistan youth is going to rise and is likely to get rid of the military herearchy and the civilian Govts. which are just kowtowing the commands of foreigners and have made the majority of two billions and more muslims as nothing more than a minority of the world. Direct democracy and not the democracy of parties is the call of the day. Pakistan should have broken off diplomatic relations with India decades ago!! Pakistan had all along the power to stop Indian military atrocities in Kashmir, but instead the military relied on cowardly clandestine operations. Pakistan military has never defended the country and are unable to do so in future. The day the military went into the Red Mosque in Islamabad with violence was the end of a peaceful Islamabad. No one is safe in that city unless it has its own securiy protection. It is a nest of conspirators and evils and the sooner the Govt. moves the capital to some other city the better it would be for every one. The Pseudo intellectal of Pakistan like Nadeem Paracha and co should have tried to bring together the feelings, thoughts and the aspiration of the people insead of causing more confusion with western terminologies like secularism, rights of the minorities, equal rights for women etc and without ever talking about the rights of the majority of the people.

Rex Minor

Posted by fibs | Report as abusive

“each condemnation of a death too often accompanied by a “but”. ”

‘The alternative, wrote Nadeem Paracha at Dawn, was to accept a society “that has started to respond enthusiastically to the major symptoms of fascist thought”.’

” Cyril Almeida, also at Dawn, wrote that Pakistan was ripe for a demagogue who would offer a facile mix of Islam, nationalism and quick-fix economic promises to ride a populist wave to power.”

Cyril clearly has Nazi Germany in mind when he talks about nationalism and quick-fix economic promises. Nazis revived the German economy by large scale military spending.

Pakistan has had demagogues throughout it’s history and Pakistanis probably don’t trust any individual to be able to fix their problems anymore. Demagoguery immunity, if you will.

Posted by trickey | Report as abusive

religious fanaticism will destroy pakistan unless something is done urgently.

Posted by black_hawk | Report as abusive

@Shahid

You are misrepresenting my views.

I thought it was no brainer that one can cry for those who died in Mumbai as well as the victims in Kashmir or else where. I left that out, thinking that is given.

But hey if you like to think Rehmat is clapping for the atrocities in Kashmir, it is your call. I am not accountable to “smart people” like you. I have my soul to address for that. I would be miserable if I start making every brother, who jumps on here, happy.

@You are so brainwashed, you read like a press release from India’s foreign office i.e. (rejection of kashmir’s indigenous 60 year movement).”
***Terrorist kasab and his mentor Hafiz Saeed will say you are a mentally brainwashed liberal who has declared Kasab a terrorist and supports India.

Furthermore, if Rehmat read like should I say you are an ISPR spokesperson?

So you have following disgusting conclusions made about Rehmat:
1. He supports rapes in Kashmir…NO I DO NOT
2. he lives in Gujarat, akin to “Jew living in Prussian hinterland in the 1930s.” …..I LIVE ON THE MOON.
3. he is brainwashed. …NOT ANYMORE THAN YOU ARE.

Keep on adding to it and show me how fickle is your brotherhood with Rehmat or many like him, just because he agrees with the cause you support (WHICH YOU DO NOT THINK HE DOES) but not the means used.

I have a suggestion for you: watch your tongue and think before you speak.

PS; Caps anywhere are not meant to shout.

Posted by rehmat | Report as abusive

Shaid

“Rehmat, you came here to play the role of Akbar to Mordor/KP/Ganesh’s Amar, Antony & Relax-singh. Instead you were humiliated by your ‘brother’ Mordor who is apparently not ‘real’ as you say.”

***You sound like a bollywood fan. Let me watch the movie then I will let you know what you mean.

Posted by rehmat | Report as abusive

Shahiddkhan: “the theft of our territory (siachen), the irreconcilable hypocrisy of India’s claims on (junagadh, kashmir, hyderabad, siachen, ferozpur), the international validity of kashmiri freedom struggle against a foreign power.”

On one side you are all right with Kashmir becoming independent. On the other hand, you are claiming “theft of YOUR TERRITORY”. Which one is correct? If Kashmir becomes independent (let us say that happens), will you claim it as your territory? Make up your mind. As far the other list, Junagadh got what you are demanding in Kashmir – plebiscite. If you do not respect that, then your demands of plebiscite in Kashmir are invalid. You cannot demand anything that is only favorable to your side.

Using your logic, we have been cheated out of OUR TERRITORY as well – all of Pakistan and Bangladesh should have gone to us. But the clever British and Jinnah managed to separate the region in the name of religion. But we have accepted whatever happened. Likewise, forget Siachien or any other territory. First prove to the world that you can manage what you have. Your country butchered East Pakistan and lost it. Now gun toting fanatics are calling the shots. Go manage what you have first before claiming more.

Posted by KPSingh01 | Report as abusive

Shahidkhan: “I would rather fixate my gaze on KP’s sister’s mustache than read one of Netizen’s posts.”

I have a better one for you – go fondle your mothers’ instead.

Sorry, but if you stoop low, you will get it back. Do not resort to such words here.

Posted by KPSingh01 | Report as abusive

ShahidKhan: “They should seek advice from arundhati roy who has rec’d many death threats. The could also consult 20 million indians who choose not to live in heavenly India.”

Arundhati Roy is still doing well in India. I have not heard about death threats to her. May be you can quote some authentic reference. 20million Indians did not run away to escape persecution. Migrating to seek wealth is a tradition in many countries. A strong Indian community abroad has been an asset to every country. And it has helped bring business to India. The whole IT revolution happened due to the contribution of overseas Indians. We are always welcoming of talented people, be they Pakistanis or anyone else. If Wasim Akram wants to settle in India, we will take him. We are not averse to people. But your country is getting famous for eliminating moderates.

Posted by KPSingh01 | Report as abusive

Shahidkhan123 said:

> Ganesh, you argument is most telling not by what you address but what you leave out namely Amnesty International & Human Rights Watch, the theft of our territory (siachen), the irreconcilable hypocrisy of India’s claims on (junagadh, kashmir, hyderabad, siachen, ferozpur), the international validity of kashmiri freedom struggle against a foreign power.

You’re implying that I’m afraid to tackle these points. We’ve already been through many of these points on this forum, which is why I let them pass, but let’s go over them again if you insist. Let’s start with the rights organisations, since that *is* one topic that we haven’t discussed before.

Amnesty International and Human Rights Watch:
I am not, and have never been, an apologist for authoritarian governments treating people badly. This is why I let Amnesty dip into my bank account every month to the tune of $10 :-). Yes, I’m a regular contributor and I receive their reports, thank you very much.

However….

The longstanding criticism against human rights organisations is that they focus exclusively on governments and ignore rights abuses by terrorists/freedom fighters. Perhaps their attitude is “A government should be responsible and not kill or torture people, but terrorists…Well, what do you expect from terrorists anyway?”

Like lots of people, I don’t agree with that approach. Human rights are human rights, no matter who violates them. Your freedom fighters in Kashmir don’t just attack the Indian army, they kill and intimidate anyone who stands in the way of their attaining their objectives. They’ve killed scores of “moderates” who talked to the Indian government, and scared the rest into silence. They’re not interested in peace and reconciliation. They want their way, and they’ll kill anyone who doesn’t see eye to eye with them. The octogenarian Geelani owes his longevity to the fact that he supports Kashmir’s accession to Pakistan. If he wavers, you can bet he’s not going to see his 90th birthday. Some respect for human rights!

So, the bottomline is, if Amnesty and HRW chose to be even-handed in condemning all human rights abuses in Kashmir, (1) you wouldn’t want to quote them anymore because their reports would cut both ways, and (2) their organisations wouldn’t be able to operate in Kashmir anymore because your freedom fighters would start to target them as well. Currently, the rights organisations are a great propaganda tool for your freedom fighters because they only criticise governments. The arrangement is sort of like the Saudi-US relationship you described so well – unimpeded access to the region in return for one-sided criticism of the Indian government.

Siachen:
Siachen was never “your” territory. It was no-man’s land. And the kettle can’t call the pot black. If India hadn’t seized the glacier, Pakistan would have. Both countries went shopping for winter clothing in Europe at the same time and bumped into each other embarrassingly. The Indians then beat the Pakistanis to the punch, by four days. Read the history. You were beaten to the draw.

Kargil:
Kargil wasn’t just about recovering Siachen, as you claim. It was to get back all of Kashmir. Very audacious and clever, but it didn’t work.

India’s hypocrisy on Kashmir as opposed to Junagadh and Hyderabad:

You know, Pakistan actually had a prima facie reasonable case here. If your guys had behaved themselves and acted like a responsible country instead of jumping the gun and trying to seize the place by force, you may in fact have had greater success in your quest.

One, Pakistan violated the standstill agreement with the Maharajah and sent in the Pashtoon lashkars. The man obviously panicked and asked India for help, which India withheld until he signed a legal document acceding to India. That’s the basis of India’s legal claim. Pakistan precipitated it through a rash grab attempt.

Two, even if we say the accession agreement is just a technicality and the wishes of the people of the state must be respected, do you remember the first condition that the UN resolution states for the plebiscite to take place? That’s right, Pakistan should withdraw its forces from all the territories it occupied (i.e., AJK and GB). Has Pakistan done this to date? No. Then how do you expect a plebiscite to be held?

If you try and take the law into your own hands, then refuse to abide by the rules agreed with a neutral adjudicating party, then you ruin a perfectly good prima facie case.

Today, Pakistan’s situation is worse than in 1947:

1. The longstanding hostility has hardened India’s will. Pakistan’s repeated violent attempts to grab Kashmir have created (yes, created) the hardline rightwing lobby in India today. A softer approach from the beginning may have seen better results.

2. World opinion has hardened towards Pakistan. Evidence: Haiti’s earthquake got more donations than Pakistan’s floods. The “international validity” you speak of doesn’t exist anymore. On the contrary, dignitaries are lining up to sign deals in New Delhi and issue comdemnations of Pakistan while they’re there, and Kashmir gets the cold shoulder. Wait for the day one of the big OIC countries breaks ranks and endorses India’s position. When the dollars stack up high enough, that’ll happen.

3. Pakistan has managed to make quite an example of itself through its daily House of Horror news headlines, and Muslims outside no longer think of it as the promised land. Indian Muslims like MJ Akbar openly say they’re lucky they were born in India. I’m sure many Kashmiris too have had second thoughts. They’re not dumb.

4. Pakistan has virtually bankrupted itself through its unremitting and single-minded focus on Kashmir to the detriment of its overall development. One could call Pakistan a spent force today, if not a failed state.

So, while Pakistan may have had a case to claim Kashmir initially, it has comprehensively blown it through its rash and inept actions. The best that can be hoped for today is a freezing of the LoC, where you get to keep what you grabbed. In a few more years, when India gets even stronger than Pakistan in relative terms, even that option may not be on the table anymore.

I know you wanted me to address these points, and I’m sorry for the harsh dose of reality that entailed.

Regards,
Ganesh Prasad

Posted by prasadgc | Report as abusive

“Victims of the Hindu caste system which has classified them”

The social stratification among Muslims in the “Swat” area of North Pakistan has been meaningfully compared to the Caste system in India. The society is rigidly divided into subgroups where each Quom is assigned a profession. Different Quoms are not permitted to intermarry or live in the same community. These Muslims practice a ritual-based system of social stratification. The Quoms who deal with human emissions are ranked the lowest.

Lower castes are often persecuted by the upper castes. A particularly infamous example of such incidents is that of Mukhtaran Mai in Pakistan, a low caste woman who was gang raped by upper caste men. In 2006, Pakistan president Pervez Musharraf proposed laws counter to the Hudood ordinance making rape a punishable offense.which were ratified by the Pakistani senate. The law is meeting considerable opposition from the Islamist parties in Pakistan, who insist that amending the laws to make them more civilized towards women is against the mandate of Islamic religious law

Stephen M. Lyon of University of Kent has written about what he calls “Gujarism”, the act of Gujjars in Pakistan seeking out other Gujjars to form associations, and consolidate ties with them, based strictly on caste affiliation.

Posted by netizen | Report as abusive

Shahidkhan123 said:

> Great links on sibling psychology. I completely agree with you especially since Pakistan was born on August 14th and India on the 15th. :)

Being competitive again, I see :-).

Regards,
Ganesh Prasad

Posted by prasadgc | Report as abusive

Further on caste discrimination in Pakistan (this is in addition to the brutality on minorities which is the topic of discussion here)

http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp  ?page=2009\11\17\story_17-11-2009_pg3_2

The lower castes of Pakistan have many groupings. The first category consists of those who are engaged in hereditary menial professions like shoemaking, carpentry, hairdressing, pottery, and weaving. Salient but less recognised in the lower castes are working on agricultural farms and in the households of major landowners. They are not wage earners, but get some grain at the end of each crop and very little cash for clothing and other necessities. They survive mainly as semi-slave dependents of the feudal lords. In the agriculture sector, there is also the pervasive phenomenon of bonded labour, with entire families working to pay back the loans they took to either feed themselves or procured for social or other reasons. Household servants both in the urban and rural areas of Pakistan are a much understudied and under-observed social category…………

…….The discrimination against the lower castes is deeply rooted in society and takes place at an informal level. Along with economic bondage is the fear of the state agencies like the police that their masters and lords use to keep them in servitude. Even a slight sign of rebellion is suppressed with the most severe punishment, which may take many forms, stealing of animals, theft, registration of false case in police stations, harassment by the lord’s tough guys, and in more severe cases, abduction of women. Illegal confinement and even jailing of lower castes in the private jails that still exist in the interior of Sindh and Balochistan is not too uncommon. Their unconditional social and political obedience is a condition for social and economic survival where the state laws and institutions are too weak to protect them.

Posted by netizen | Report as abusive

Ah, Shahid. I knew the civil dialogue had to descend to spluttering rage at some point.

“Might is Right”: Which country tried the grab, and kept trying? Now that the “might is right” game is going the other way, the moral failings of this principle should of course be condemned, shouldn’t they?

Earlier you asked me if I was a brahman, now you’ve decided I’m a bania. I told you the caste system in India isn’t as rigid as it used to be :-).

“We are the descendants of your conquerors”: Yes, now that the high watermark of Islamic conquest has passed, there is only bitterness that the kaffirs are ruling themselves, and doing OK too. Get used to an egalitarian world. You won’t be conquering anybody in a long time.

Let’s come back to these topics after a couple of years. We’re clearly not going to agree on anything today.

Regards,
Ganesh Prasad

Posted by prasadgc | Report as abusive

Shahidkhan: “We are the descendants of your conquerors””

It should read as, “We are the illegitimate descendants of your conquerors, mostly from mass rape and slavery of captured women”

Posted by KPSingh01 | Report as abusive

I’ve been a reader of this blog for sometime & it’s a shame, how one individual (shahidkhan123) can bring down the quality of the entire blog. I would advise Reuters moderators to disable the ID of such individuals, if they expect civilized people to visit it. thanks.

Posted by black_hawk | Report as abusive

Nobody should be surprised by the murder of Mr. Bhatti. Intolerance, extremism & bigotry have seeped into the collective concience of Pakistan as a nation & I’m afraid, this is just the begining. Some people (including Pakistani liberals) have started to compare today’s Pakistan with Nazi Germany and rightly so. Unless strict & bold measures are immediately taken to stem the tide of radicalization, unfortunately, it will sweep that country. Pakistan’s civilian govt is powerless & the only entity which can provide security to the minorities & liberals and take on the emboldening & increasingly violent religious extremists, is it’s army. But it does not seem like the Pakistani army is ready to come out of it’s India fixation & take this issue seriously enough, just as yet. By the time, the realization sets in, it could be too late.

Posted by Mortal1 | Report as abusive

Mortal1: “it does not seem like the Pakistani army is ready to come out of it’s India fixation & take this issue seriously enough, just as yet.”

These guys are cowards in reality. When they have a real enemy, their thighs shake. So they find some other enemy they think they can handle and keep screaming about that enemy. This way they can confuse the real enemy and buy time to sneak out of trouble. Why do you think they are dancing around when asked about going into North Waziristan? They know they will get their asses kicked, nukes or not. They announced well in advance that they would be going into Swat and South Waziristan so that most key militants found time to slip out and move into North Waziristan. If they move their troops out of their Eastern border and send them into this area, there is a danger that they might lose most of them or they might find these soldiers defecting to the other side. It is typical for these people to switch sides and align themselves with the victors. Look at Shahidkhan’s words on being the descendants of conquering armies above. They have delayed going into North Waziristan saying that they need to get ready with all logistics necessary, while whatever they “gained” in Swat and South Waziristan has been lost. Militants are still blowing their rear ends up. These guys are good at chest thumping. When they face the real enemies, they start swishing out their swords randomly at shadows and pretend to be brave. Watch what happens soon.

Posted by KPSingh01 | Report as abusive

Shahidkhan: “It would be seriously biased to only blame the Hindus but it is the Muslim community which always suffers the most.”

Let us know who slaughtered a million Bengali Muslims in 1970-71. There too the majority victims were Muslims, but they did not count in your tally.

Also let us know about the Ahmadis, Shias and others getting blown up to pieces in your beloved country.

Minorities are more under the noose in Pakistan today than anywhere else. So go work on improving the conditions there first before pointing fingers at others.

Posted by KPSingh01 | Report as abusive

Shahidkhan: “Following the London subway blasts, the British authorities there prepared a comprehensive study titled Report of the Official Account of Bombings in London on 7 July to find out the conditions and causes which prompted otherwise decent middle-class young Muslim men to carry out terrorist attacks. The effort was not to serve an excuse for the Muslims but to identify the areas that create a breeding ground for such acts.

However India doesn’t want this kind of introspection. Any public personality who tries to reason the possibility of violent discrimination against Muslims as a cause for the induction of Muslim men among the Jehadi terrorist groups are instantly hooted as pseudo-seculars, Muslim-appeasing and unpatriotic citizens who are bent on destroying the country’s fair name.”

Wait until a couple more Mumbai style attacks in UK and see what the skin heads there do your people. All this civilized approach full of rights for humanity etc will fly in the air. In Australia Indians got attacked brazenly. An Indian Muslim doctor was incarcerated on suspicion of terrorist links. They could not find any evidence against him. In the US, when 9/11 happened, I was there and they wanted to nuke your brotherhood. Anyone with a beard or looked like a Muslim or had a name like a Muslim faced harassment and sometimes attacks. One of our community members was shot dead by a cowboy lunatic in Texas for mistaken identity. All is not rosy with the Caucasians. They can be as nasty as your brothers if you kick them in their groins. If you are itching for it, then wait for your brothers to intensify their jihad in Europe and watch what happens.

I do not wish this for you. Since you hate us so much, you are unable to see anything good in us. But that does not mean you can seek solace in Europeans. They do not like your kind like they did before.

Posted by KPSingh01 | Report as abusive

Here is a link that gives a glimpse of what is coming:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/41534380/ns/ world_news-europe/

Attitude like yours is making it worse for moderate people in your community.

Posted by KPSingh01 | Report as abusive

Shahidkhan123,

You’ve pointed out some very uncomfortable home-truths that are admitted even by the liberals in India. These do have to be addressed. Just as you guys keeping saying Pakistan is in a spot of trouble now but will come out of it, I would say India will improve its record over time. There is in fact evidence that this is happening. There have been two critical points in the recent past when communal riots could have occurred but did not – the Mumbai 2008 attacks and the Ayodhya verdict.

> Indian spirit, if vaporized down to its essence, consists of four essentials: Politics, Bollywood, cricket and Hindu-Muslim riots.

You ruin some perfectly good points with inane polemic. Do you seriously believe this is all there is to India or are you just tweaking the crowd here so you can get your desired response from someone on what the spirit of Pakistan is? What are you trying to achieve here?

I lose respect for people without intellectual honesty.

Regards,
Ganesh Prasad

(And what happened to your two comments here yesterday? Did you pull them yourself or did the blog’s moderators delete them?)

Posted by prasadgc | Report as abusive

Unfortunately virulent fanatics/ bigots like Shahidkhan123 constitute the overwhelming majority in Pakistan.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424 052748703386704576185843562595056.html?m od=googlenews_wsj

Confronting the Myth of ‘Moderate Pakistan’

At court appearances, supporters garland Mr. Qadri and shower him with rose petals. Across Pakistan, rallies in support of the murderer attract thousands of fervent supporters. Dozens of Facebook groups extol him as, among other things, a ghazi (religious warrior), “the new hero of Pakistan,” and “the great soldier of Islam.” Shortly after Taseer’s murder, 500 leading clerics from the supposedly moderate Barelvi sect—often contrasted favorably with the more rigid Deobandis—publicly applauded Mr. Qadri, a fellow Barelvi, for his “bravery, valor and faith.”

By now the reasons for Pakistan’s predicament are well known. Among them: the intolerance embedded in the nation’s founding idea of a separate “land of the pure” for Indian Muslims; the malign shadow of Saudi Arabia on religious life; blowback from the anti-Soviet jihad of the 1980s; and the overwhelming influence the army and its thuggish intelligence wing, the Inter-Services Intelligence, wield on national life. The army’s very motto, Jihad-fi-Sabilillah, or jihad in the path of Allah, is an exhortation to holy war.

It means channeling aid to ensure that children are no longer taught to glorify Islamic conquest [HOW SHAHIDKHAN WAS PRODUCED] and reflexively mistrust the West and India. It means accepting that the most poisonous madrassas—such as Jamia Binoria in Karachi and Darul Uloom Haqqania outside Peshawar—must be shuttered if they can’t be reformed.

Posted by netizen | Report as abusive

@”this from a devilish hypocrite who accused prophet mohammad of pedophilia (astfg) and demonstrate india’s bigotry towards 1.3 billion people and 57 nations.”
Posted by shahidkhan123

I’ll say this for the last time – I don’t care what you think of me & from what I can tell, nobody else cares what you think of them either. So, you’ll be well advised to keep your bigoted opinions to yourself.

The hypocritical & bigoted pig, is the one who constantly, shamelessly & unapologetically disrespects others & raises hell when given a sample of what he gives. I have been interacting with your fellow Pakistani, Umair, for quite some time now. We don’t see eye to eye on many issues & we have had many intense debates on this blog. But NEVER, have we insulted each others’ religion or personally attacked each other. Respect is a 2 way street but you seem to be of the opinion that you’re the only one who deserves it. Go back & read your comments, is there anyone here (whom you disagree with), with whom you have not resorted to name-calling & personal attacks? Ganesh & Rehmat tried to have a civil discourse with you but you did not even spare them. You are a morally & intellectually, weak & immature person who seeks the aid of insults when you realize that your frail arguments are not upto task. Bottomline: Don’t expect respect from anyone untill you’re ready to give it.

Posted by Mortal1 | Report as abusive

Sahidkhan mentality predominates in pakistan. This fanaticism, hatred are the root causes Paks have both internall and externally.

http://www.cfr.org/pakistan/pakistans-ro ad-disintegration/p23744

Pakistan’s Road to Disintegration
Interviewee: Stephen P. Cohen, Senior Fellow, Brookings Institution

January 6, 2011
These are symptoms of a deeper problem in Pakistan. There is not going to be any good news from Pakistan for some time, if ever, because the fundamentals of the state are either failing or questionable. This applies to both the idea of Pakistan, the ideology of the state, the purpose of the state, and also to the coherence of the state itself. Pakistan has lost a lot of its “stateness,” that is the qualities that make a modern government function effectively. So there’s failure in Pakistan on all counts.

Posted by netizen | Report as abusive

@”why don’t you complain about HINDUstan, the official name for your country? is it only for hindus???????”

More lies: Official names of India: Republic of India & Bharat

Posted by Mortal1 | Report as abusive

SERIOUSLY, WHAT ARE THE ODDS OF HIDDEN HINDU, HIDDEN CHRISTIAN IN PAKISTANI PARLIAMENT accidentally becoming the Prime Minister of Pakistan?

Christians, Hindus and other minorities are living in fear at the fringe of society in Pakistan.

Yet Shaidkhan type jihadist, bigoted mindset made paks pass an 18th amendment to Constitution (Eighteenth Amendment) Act, 2010
President’s Assent Received: April 19, 2010

http://www.pakistani.org/pakistan/consti tution/amendments/18amendment.html

29. Substitution of Article 91 of the Constitution:
In the Constitution, for Article 91, the following shall be substituted, namely:-

(3) After the election of the Speaker and the Deputy Speaker, the National Assembly shall, to the exclusion of any other business, proceed to elect without debate one of its Muslim members to be the Prime Minister.

IMMEDIATELY :-)

Posted by netizen | Report as abusive

@”I am certain you were calling us feral pigs amongst many other things.” Posted by shahidkhan123

Using quotes out of context for the sake of your argument is an old trait of yours’. My “feral pig” comment was AFTER you & your buddy had started the insults & personal attacks. Go back & check!

@”You are not the sweetheart you think you are”

I am absolutely NOT a sweetheart & nor do I ever claim to be one. I’m a very imperfect human. I’m a good friend to friends & a bad enemy to enemies.

@”I did not insult your religion”

So now, you are suddenly an innocent rabit? Reminds me of the indian saying “Nau sau choohe kha kar billi haj ko chali”. Is making constant “shaving” & “hair” jokes about sikhs, a sign of respect to sikhism? Do you want me to dig up the poison you poured against hindusim under different identities? Do you want me to dig up your hateful & venemous blog?

@”Everytime you pretend do be some sort of humanist egalitarian, you are going to get interrogated, get used to it.”

Stop making hollow assumptions about others. I never claimed to be any of those things. And get real, this is not some kind of court of law. It’s just an internet blog (one of millions) which has very very little importance in my life. At the end of the day, I know what I am & can live with myself and that’s what matters. I don’t owe any expalanations to you or anyone here.

Posted by Mortal1 | Report as abusive

Shahidkhan123: All this copy-paste spam you put up here is worthless unless you provide a link to a valid & credible source with it.

Posted by Mortal1 | Report as abusive

“>> what you are is a nationless, stateless malcontent angry at big bad pakistan for taking away punjab…. awwwwww so sad.”

Whatever helps you sleep better, man!

Posted by Mortal1 | Report as abusive

“all i asked was if your wife has a large garden in the courtyard.”

(There you go, showing your pedigree again!)

And I could have responded with:

“Does your mother deliberately keep her backyard unlocked, to be penetrated by pigs? Because that would certainly explain your sorry existence!”

BUT, I didn’t!

Posted by Mortal1 | Report as abusive

“Does your mother deliberately keep her backyard unlocked, to be penetrated by pigs? Because that would certainly explain your sorry existence!”

BUT, I didn’t!

Posted by Mortal1

LOL
:-) :-) :-)

Just visualized Shahidkhan’s genealogy

Posted by netizen | Report as abusive

Shahidkhan: “But if I disagree to your points about kashmir, junagadh, hyderabad, hrw, ai — they report these comments as ‘abusive’. This is why comments are removed. cowardly acts by a cowardly people.”

When the going gets bad, you start resorting to foul language. You referred to my sister with no level of decency on this forum. Now that is abusive language. I reciprocated the courtesy. However, I am not going to do that anymore, because I do not want to stoop down to your level.

Posted by KPSingh01 | Report as abusive

“I wish we could share it with others with no nation, no country of their own”

I know that you are no stranger to plagiarism but imitating comments from Rex minor? C’mon, have some literary standards!

Posted by Mortal1 | Report as abusive

@”Punjab, what a wonderful province, fertile land, hearty people, modern highways, great universities, beautiful people, big meals and big hearts, history etc.”

You forgot to mention, some of your Punjab’s other notable attractions, namely, Lashkar-e Tayiba, Lashkar-i Jhangvi, Jaish-e-Mohammed, Sipah-e-Sahaba etc.

Thanks but no thanks, we’re good where we are!

Posted by Mortal1 | Report as abusive

I’ve heard the food is amazing, though. Would like to visit sometime, when things get better. My friend Umair has promised to show me around.

Posted by Mortal1 | Report as abusive

Speaking of Umair, haven’t seem him around in a while. I hope he’s doing OK. (NO shahidkhan, regardless of what you might assume, this is not an act)

Posted by Mortal1 | Report as abusive

Shahidkhan123 said:

> the ideal people would be someone with a warrior history now neutered by a large pluralist, liberal, democratic union.

Neutered? I like your choice of words. I presume in Pakistan these warrior instincts have free reign, which explains the daily carnage there.

I realise you’re having a lot of fun tweaking people, but the deadly serious backdrop to your jokes is the steady disintegration of your own country. For people who try to see this in humanistic terms rather than in jingoistic or religious terms, this is a tragedy. Pity you don’t seem to be interested in collaborative solutions.

Try and be balanced for a change. It’s nobody’s case that India is the perfect nation, but you seem to be trying really hard to disprove a strawman of your own creation. You surely know that things in Pakistan are looking far less rosy now. Are you afraid Indians will crow? If you can lift the discourse to how South Asia can do better, I’m sure there will be a different tone to this discussion. Yes, there will be a few nasty posts from here and there, but you need to be able to ignore them and lift yourself higher. South Asia deserves better. Your country deserves better.

Regards,
Ganesh Prasad

Posted by prasadgc | Report as abusive

“kp says islam was spread in south asia by the sword. i diasgree with kp but I am pakistani. what do you think?”
***Shahid, are you drawing me into this? I do not much care about it actually.

Having said that, you said I am a Muslim “like a Jew living in Prussian hinterland in the 1930s.”? so how does it matter what I say? I liked your prescription to KP earlier to live in 2011, not past. Let us do that.

My views in this context are in record already somewhere on this blog. Like anything else, neither extreme position is an answer. Aurangzeb and Sufi saints are opposite poles on this. A simplistic answer is “I agree with you”.

My related question to you, and perhaps to the article also:
Do you think some minorities in Pakistan have converted to Islam due to some fear?

Posted by rehmat | Report as abusive

PAK is an acronym for punjab afghaina and kashmir
Posted by shahidkhan123
==

Where is Baluchistan (occupied Kalat) in PAK?

We know where Bengal is :-)

Posted by netizen | Report as abusive

Shahidkhan123 said:

> PAK is an acronym for punjab afghaina and kashmir

What I read was it’s an acronym for Punjab, Afghania, Kashmir and Indus-Sind, with a -stan at the end.

I guess nation creation is too serious a business to be left to English-educated Muslim League gentlemen playing word games :-).

Regards,
Ganesh Prasad

Posted by prasadgc | Report as abusive

Ganesh: “What I read was it’s an acronym for Punjab, Afghania, Kashmir and Indus-Sind, with a -stan at the end.”

Let us look in 2011 onwards as our friend suggested.

After Balochistan, Azad Kashmir and Sindh (Indus) separate in the future, whatever is left will be BAKIstan – land of Mumtaz Qadri, birthplace of Ajmal Kasab and will be ultra pure, orthodox and a fortress of radical religion, in which women would be sold like cattle. Long live Bakistan! :-)

Posted by KPSingh01 | Report as abusive

(Sorry, I lost your li’l gems in the crowd)

@”No other people have everbeen able to control the sikhs other than the Pashtoons” Posted by pakistan

No, you got it mixed up again. It’s the other way around. You need to go back to the history books (real ones, not pakistani ones).

@”they themselves are victims. Victims of the Hindu caste system which has classified them as warriors, not suitable for any decent profession other than to live and die in violence”

That would explain why more than 90% of sikhs living in India are civilians.

@”In the USA and Canada they get knocked off without any notice!”

Roflol! Can you please explain what do you mean by this statement? Should I be worried? Am I going to be the next to “get knocked off without any notice”? lol

PS: You know, I’ve tried to see things from your point of view but it’s hard for me to get my head inside my ass!

Posted by Mortal1 | Report as abusive

Here is something I saw in NY Times. Hard times are ahead. Now non-Muslim or anti-Muslim radicals have started in Western countries.

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/03/08/us/08g abriel.html?_r=1&src=ISMR_HP_LO_MST_FB

This is a sad development where gullible people can be manipulated and turned against moderate population. In California, Sikhs have been attacked for mistaken identity. World economy is getting strained and it can create conditions where warped minds can make gains.

Posted by KPSingh01 | Report as abusive

Pakistan’s ISI is a terrorist organization funding and fomenting the zealots of their predominant faith…Radical Islam. They are the cheif supporters and defenders of the Taliban.

In turn they are supported by some of the deepest pockets in the world, most of whom reside on the Arabian peninsula.

They don’t want the faithful to be peaceful or side with the tolerant.

They want anger, fear, and hatred to fuel the followers and keep their sanity at bay.

This man’s death is just another in a line of many they believe will lead to the goal of global religious dominance.

Snuffing out voices that breath words of tolerance or realistic justice or opposition to their brutality is the only method their faithful desire.

It will never stop until they are stopped.

Posted by NobleKin | Report as abusive

Shahidkhan123 said:

> I will have you know sir that I am enjoy recreational gardening.

Ah, that explains the glass house. All the more reason why you shouldn’t throw stones about revisionist history.

Regards,
Ganesh Prasad

Posted by prasadgc | Report as abusive

Shahidkhan: “I am just trying to open your eyes to the sentiments of your fellow Indians. If a pakistani makes a grammar mistake, you correct them. Kp gets a free pass even on Indian Revisionism of Islam in south asia.”

We represent a pluralistic society with vast divergence of opinions, some may not be agreeable to all members. Sometimes our views converge, like in the case of your country and sometimes they differ based on issues. There is no concrete proof to whether religions have been spread through peace or by the sword. In India, Buddhism and Jainism which had spread across most of the sub-continent, did encounter violent “inquisitions” in some parts as the kings changed their religions to Vaishnavism and Shaivism. Many Buddhist monasteries became Hindu temples. But one can never find a concrete proof for any of it. Read about the conquest by Malik Kafr, a Hindu convert to Islam, who raided all the way into Southern India. He was sent by Alauddin Khalji. Spaniards forcibly converted many Central Americans to Christianity as well. So Islam is not alone when pointed at for forced conversion. In some cases it has happened and in most cases due to various reasons. The slow disappearance of minorities in Pakistan is an example. Most probably people simply converted due to the fear of being surrounded by a belligerent majority. That too is a kind of forced conversion.

Posted by KPSingh01 | Report as abusive

“my cousin’s best friend is a hindu from her med school.”

This is supposed to be an example for non-tokenism :-)

http://tinyurl.com/4quvvec

Hindus attacked, evicted from their homes in Pak’s Sindh
Islamabad, July 12, 2010
Several members of the minority Hindu community were attacked and forced out of their homes in Pakistan’s southern Sindh province after a boy drank water from a facility outside a mosque.

About 60 Hindu men, women and children were recently forced to abandon their homes at Memon Goth in Karachi, the capital of Sindh, after influential tribesmen of the area objected to the boy drinking water from a cooler.

“All hell broke loose when my son, Dinesh, who looks after chickens in a farm, drank water from a cooler outside a mosque. Upon seeing him do that, the people of the area started beating him up,” a Hindu man named Meerumal told The News daily.

“Later, around 150 tribesmen attacked us, injuring seven of our people — Samo, Mohan, Hero, Chanu, Sadu, Heera, and Guddi — who were taken to the Jinnah Hospital,” he said.

The Hindus who were forced out of their homes have taken refuge in a cattle pen.

One of the injured, Heera, said about 400 Hindu families are being threatened to vacate the area.

“Our people are even scared of going out of their houses. We are also putting up with living in the filthy (cattle) pen because we cannot go home for fear of being killed,” said Heera, who too is living in a cattle shed.

Posted by netizen | Report as abusive

Shahidkhan:

“•India rampaged through the sacred sikh golden temple, killed sikh leaders and humiliated its followers.”

It was not done from a religious persecution standpoint.
Golden Temple became like a hijacked plane. There was no choice but to go in and fight the terrorists there. But it could have been avoided. Golden temple attacks is a culmination of many other events that all could have been avoided.

“•India used artillery against its own Sikh people in the religious residential area of Amristar”

It is unfortunate. When trying to remove weeds, good grass around it gets removed. But again, it was not from a religious persecution standpoint that you seem to be more familiar with in your country.

“•Indian police and para-military stood by idly as 3000+ Sikhs were murdered during the Sikh Riots.”

Justice will be served. Again, it was not done from a religious persecution standpoint. It was a revenge act unleashed by the “secular” Congress party goons when Sikh bodyguards assassinated Indira Gandhi.

“•India government stood by idly as the destruction of Babri Masjid took place”

It is more political than religious, much like the formation of Pakistan for “religious” purposes.

“•Indian state government of Gujrat headed by Modi committed a state-sponsored pogrom in gujrat killing 2000+ Muslims and displacing 100,000.”

Justice shall be served. No one will defend these acts. If you are looking for us to defend them, you are mistaken.

“•India has slaughtered 70,000-130,000 civilians in Kashmir”

This number is grossly exaggerated by propaganda machinery run by the ISI. Most killings have been carried out by Pakistan sponsored militants to deflect the public frustration towards the Indian military.

“•Indian forces have raped 9900 women in Kashmir”

More lies. How did you come up with exactly 9900?

“•India maintains an army 0f 700,000 soldiers in Kashmir (50% of its total army and greater than the entire Army of neighboring Pakistan) against the civilian population of that small state which numbers less than 4 million people.”

India has about 500000 soldiers in Kashmir, not because of the people there, but because of the proxy war run by Pakistan. It is very expensive to change logistics and one never knows when Pakistan will resume the proxy war. It is a very sensitive and geo-strategic region and our troops are there to protect our territorial integrity. These soldiers are not to clamp down on civilians.

“•India massacred peaceful Kashmiri protests in Gowkadal, Maisuma and Bijbehara”

Only Pakistani sources claim all this. Many non-Muslims have been massacred in Kashmir and the rest driven out of their ancestral homes.

“•human rights organization like Amnesty International and Asia Watch constantly report of indescribably inhumane treatment meted out to Kashmiris in government run torture cells and elsewhere”

Torture cells are commonplace all across the world. Even Americans have one. So learn to live with it. Amnesty International is a Western mouthpiece that is used for political gains. And they do not care about torture by militants. See Ganesh’s response to that. You keep coming back with the same repetitive false claims.

“•“The Armed Forces (J&K) Special Powers Bill (1990), which have been passed by the parliament of world’s largest “democracy”. This Bill grants authorization to members of Indian Security Forces to “fire upon or otherwise use force, even to the causing of death against any person” without fire orders.”

This law is under review. It is difficult to remove due to the high potential for insurgency in these border regions.

“100,000+ people have been brutally murdered by the Indian Security Forces in the past 20 years and thousands more have been intimidated and terrorized”

Propaganda in full swing again? How many million refugees from Kashmir have flooded Pakistan? They did in Afghanistan and East Pakistan? If your number is true, by now you must be facing a humanitarian crisis. Where are they?

“•According to a recent report by the United Nations Children’s Fund (UNICEF) up to 50 million girls and women are missing from India’ s population as a result of systematic gender discrimination in India. Most victims of female infanticide.”

Quote reference. Let us look at that. We know infanticide is prevalent in backward areas, much like the honor killings or female genital mutilations in many Islamic countries. These things are not denied. Nations are constantly progressing and only progress will put an end to these social evils.

Do not over-psyche yourself with anti-India facts. It will only make things worse for you. Look at positive side of things for a change. There is a lot of positive stuff in India as well. That is why it has progressed this far. None of us deny some of the negative issues mentioned by you or others. But we know they won’t disappear overnight. And India’s negative issues will not help Pakistan survive. So go work on your issues first. We have put things in place to take care of ours.

Posted by KPSingh01 | Report as abusive

Shahidkhan: “How did Islam spread in all of Hindu Malaysia over a century of non-violence? where were the swords? or Animist Guinea?”

Malaysia was Buddhist before the king there converted to Islam. He converted because he was bankrupt and he was bailed out by Muslim traders with the agreement to convert to Islam. In those days, royal patronage was good enough for the people to follow suit. This is because if people needed jobs and high level positions, they needed to align with the religious preferences of the kings.

Have you heard of “Bhumi Putra” violence in Malaysia? May be you should look at how peaceful things there are.

Posted by KPSingh01 | Report as abusive

BTW Shahidkhan,

Read VS Naipaul’s book “Among the believers.” It deals a lot with South East Asian Muslim countries. In Indonesia, Islamic society is built on top of an earlier Buddhist framework (pesantran). Their airlines (Garuda) and many other names (Meghavathi Sukarno Putri) are still old Hindu names. They are not as puritanical as you people are. Without knowing the overall background, do not jump to conclusions.

Posted by KPSingh01 | Report as abusive

India has slaughtered 70,000-130,000 civilians in Kashmir
==

Most of that was from PUNJABISTANI terrorists killing Indian citizens like these:

http://www.kashmir-information.com/atroc ities/massacres.html

A partial listing of killings and massacres
Nadimarg Massacre, 24 March, 2003
Chattisinghpora Killings, March 2000
Prankot Killings, April 1998
Wandhama Killings, January 1998
Udhampore Killings, June 1997
Sangrampora Killings, 22 March 1997

August 14, 1993
A passenger bus in Kishtwar (Doda district) was stopped and fifteen Hindu passengers were massacred.

March 21, 1997
Sangrampura Massacre
In Sangrampura, a village 20 miles south of Srinagar in Jammu & Kashmir state, gunmen burst into homes of Hindus, took away seven men and killed them.

June 15, 1997
Passengers on a bus from Gool to Ramban was stopped by two men in comouflage uniforms. The Hindu passengers were asked to unboard and three were taken to a nearby nallah and shot. All three were Kashmiri Hindus.

January 25, 1998
Wandhama Massacre
The most shocking of the massacre of Kashmiri Hindus took place in Wandhama, a village near Srinagar, on January 25, 1998. The two dozen-odd terrorists dropped in for tea, around 2030 hours. The tea was served and they left a little after midnight.

When they arrived, the foothill village of Wandhama, 30 km outside Srinagar, boasted four families of Kashmiri Hindu Pandits, numbering around 23. When they left, there was none.

Not alive, that is. Barring a terrified, grief-stricken Vinod Kumar Dhar, all of fourteen, seeing through brimming eyes the bodies of his mother, sisters and relatives, their bodies marred with bullet holes, their last resting place a pool of their own blood.
This was followed by two more massacres, one at Khurhama, Ganderbal on August 9, 1998 in which four members of a family were killed. The third massacre took place September 17, 1998. Five male members of a minority community family and close relatives of a counter-insurgent were killed after being dragged out of their houses at Dagapora in Ganderbal late last night and shot them in cold blood.

April 17, 1998
Prankot Massacre
Twelve-year-old Sudesh isn’t sure whether she is lucky or not. She is yet to decide which is worse: Escaping death at the hands of militants, or being forced to live with memories of her entire family being massacred right in front of her eyes.

For this little girl from Prankot village in Udhampur district, currently under treatment at the Jammu medical college, the night of April 17 cannot be forgotten — that’s when militants gunned down 18 members of her family. Sudesh was brutally attacked with a sharp-edged weapon. The terrorists left after she fell unconscious, thinking her dead.

Soba Ram is another survivor of that bloody night. The militants killed eight members of his family. Only his second wife Rajkumari, their newborn child and two daughters, aged eight and five, who were in another village, escaped them.

About 1,000 people from these villages are in Pauni and Riyasi, fled in fear and stayed in temporary camps for a long timer before returning to their homes.

June 19, 1998
Champnagri Wedding Massacre
In an attack on a wedding party in the mountainous Doda district, 175km north-east of Jammu city, two bridegrooms and more than 20 wedding guests in a mountainous village were killed. The men were singled out and shot before the gunmen fled. Seven others were injured

July 27, 1998
Thakrai and Sarwan Massacre
At least 16 Hindus were killed in two night-time attacks in Doda district in two hill villages just a few kilometres apart. In Thakrai, terrorists burst into home of a Hindu family and opened fire with automatic weapons. Five people were killed on the spot and others later died from their injuries.

A little later there was a similar attack on a Hindu home in the village of Sarwan. Again, automatic weapons were used, at least eight people were killed.

Posted by netizen | Report as abusive

India has slaughtered 70,000-130,000 civilians in Kashmir
==

Most of that was from PUNJABISTANI terrorists killing Indian citizens like these:

http://www.kashmir-information.com/atroc ities/massacres.html

PART 2

July 19, 1999
Fifteen people including eight women died in a terrorist attack in Doda district. Among the dead were five members of the village defence committee, set up to protect remote villages from such attacks. Another six people were wounded, four of them seriously.

In another incident on Tuesday, four construction workers were killed in an attack on their camp in the Poonch district. Over forty people have lost their lives in similar terrorist attacks.

March 20, 2000
Chattisinghpora Massacre
The attack late evening in this village was carried out by 40 to 50 terrorists. They forced the residents from their homes, segregating the men from the women. They then opened fire on the men with automatic weapons. Thirty-four died instantly.

August 1, 2000
Amarnath Pilgrimage Massacre
At least 48 persons were killed in Pahalgam base camp of Amarnath Yatra that attracts 120-150,000 pilgrims every year in August.

Another two massacres took place in Anantnag where 19 Hindu migrant laborers from Bilaspur in Bihar were killed; and in Doda district where Hindu villagers were lined up and shot dead.

At least 90 people were killed in terrorist attacks across the state.

February 8, 2001
Kot Charwal Massacre
Families of Bakkarwal shepherds who had dared to take on terrorist groups active on the mountains above Rajouri became the victims of terrorism today as fifteen of their members lost lives to the terrorist bullets. They were all members of village defence committee set up to protect vulnerable Hindu minorities, a development of some significance.

It was not until the afternoon of February 9, as the embers of the burnt down shacks of the villagers had cooled, that the soldiers arriving at Kot Charwal discovered the charred bodies of victims. Soon they found the burned body of a woman, wrapped around that of the infant she had been trying to protect. By late evening, 15 bodies had been found. Seven were of children, the youngest of them just four years old.
May 9, 2001
Six villagers were beheaded in a terrorist attack in Doda district after 11 Hindu villagers were confronted by a group of armed men while grazing cattle in the remote Doda district. Several hours later, six bodies – all decapitated were discovered by the police. Three other villagers survived the attack with deep wounds to the throat.

July 20, 2001
Amarnath Pilgrimage Massacre
13 people were killed and another 15 wounded in an attack by terrorists on a Hindu pilgrimage high in the Himalayas. The terrorists exploded land mines then engaged Indian security forces in a gun battle at Sheshnag, halfway along the route to the cave-shrine of Amarnath. Six pilgrims, and five porters were among the dead.

July 22, 2001
Doda Massacre
Fifteen Hindu villagers were dragged out of their homes in Doda district and shot dead at point blank range.

August 3, 2001
Massacre of Shepherds
Seventeen abducted Hindu shepherds were massacred in an attack in Doda district, some 240 km north of Jammu. The terrorists kidnapped 21 shepherds who had taken their animals to graze on higher ground.

August 6, 2001
Railway Station Massacre
Three terrorists, armed with automatic weapons and wearing Indian army uniforms, launched an attack at Jammu railway station late afternoon and killed 11 people and injured more than twenty.

March 30, 2002
Raghunath Temple Massacre
The two terrorists who carried out the assault had arrived at the Raghunath temple complex in the heart of Jammu city just after 10-15 a.m. in a white jeep. They immediately opened fire at the guards outside the gate, killing three of them on the spot. One terrorist was unable to enter the temple, and was shot while trying to escape through the crowded market. The second terrorist entered the temple complex and killed four pilgrims and temple staff. Eight others were injured. Temple priest Jeevanand Giri escaped death only because the terrorist’s assault rifle had run out of ammunition by the time he reached the Dattatreya temple, where prayers were being conducted.

May 13, 2002
Kaluchak Massacre
In a gruesome attack, three members of a suicide squad of terrorists killed 30 persons, including seven bus passengers and 23 others in the family quarters of the Army, near Jammu today. Thirty-four persons were injured in the attack, and some of them are in a critical condition.

The attack on the bus took place around 5.35 a.m. at Kaluchak on the Jammu-Panthankot National Highway, a few kilometres from the Indo-Pakistan International Border. The three terrorists, who were dressed in Army fatigues, had boarded the bus, bound for Jammu from Kulu in Himachal Pradesh, at Samba, 30 km. from Jammu.

July 13, 2002
Qasim Nagar Massacre
A general strike paralysed parts of Kashmir on Monday in protest at the killing of 27 Hindu civilians by suspected pro-Pakistan Muslim militants near Jammu. The strike was most effective in Jammu, the winter capital of Indian-administered Kashmir, but it had ended without incident by mid-afternoon.

Jammu July 13. Twentyfive persons were killed and 21 injured, a number of them critically, when militants attacked a slum locality, near here this evening. The dead included 10 women, nine men, and a three-year-old boy. The militants lobbed grenades and opened fire at random on civilians, in an area inhabited by slum-dwellers, police sources said. Some of the victims were killed on the spot, they said, adding that there was a temple in the vicinity of the militant strike. A few killed were near the temple.The toll is likely to go up.

July 30, 2002
In their first strike on Amarnath pilgrims this year, terrorists have killed two persons and left five others wounded, when a cab was blown up with a grenade blast in Anantnag township of south Kashmir. The broad daylight strike was carried out amid heavy security arrangements this evening when the Jammu-bound pilgrims were returning after darshan from the holy cave.

August 6, 2002
In the second strike on Amarnath pilgrims within a week, unspecified number of militants in a daring act, attacked the “heavily guarded” base camp, gunning down nine devotees and injuring 30 others in their sleep in the wee hours at Nunwan near Pahalgam today. The Hindu pilgrims were attacked in the early hours of Tuesday morning, while they were sleeping at a camp on their way to a shrine in the foothills of the Himalayas. Gunmen threw a grenade and then opened fire on the travellers.

November 24, 2002
Rughnath Temple Massacre
Ten people were killed and 53 injured when a terrorist attacked the historic Raghunath temple in Jammu on Sunday evening, hurling grenades and firing indiscriminately on the heavily guarded temple complex in Raghunath chowk. Over 50 people were injured.

December 19, 2002
Terrorists killed three young girls in Thanamandi area of Rajouri district in Jammu division for not wearing burqas (veils). The following day terrorists barged into the house of Jan Begum in Darhal area (Rajouri district) and beheaded her for failure to observe burqa diktat of terrorists.

According to villagers, posters by the Lashkar-e-Jabbar, an off-shoot of the Lashkar-e-Tayiba, had been appearing in educational institutions in Rajouri district for the past one week asking Muslim women and girls to wear burqas and strictly follow the purdah system.

Elsewhere, at Rebbon near Sopore four members of a family, including a six-year-old, were gunned down by terrorists.

March 24, 2003
Nandimarg Massacre
At 2:30am on March 24, 2003, minority Hindus in the village of Nandimarg in Kulgam-Shopian belt in southern part of Kashmir Valley, 70 km away from Srinagar, were pulled out of their homes, assembled under a Chinar tree and mowed down by bullets sprayed by Islamic terrorists. The 10 to 15 terrorists who posed as Security Forces, disarmed the 9-member Police Guard and killed all but two Hindus, the latter escaping with injuries. Among the 24 persons killed were two children aged 4 and 5 years, 12 women and half a dozen elderly people.

Posted by netizen | Report as abusive

Shahidkhan,

Conversions happened due to various reasons – social prejudice, gaining favors, love affairs and marriage relations, Jazya tax burden and violence. In India, Islam spread in many fronts. The Arabs dealt with South Western India for a long time and there conversion to Islam happened by the most peaceful means. Violence came with the Turks who came in from Central Asia. Most of North India faced their onslaught. That is why there is so much of anger against Muslims in that part of the country. By the time of the Mughals, Islam had been accepted by the locals as another facet of the fabric. Religion did not become a major factor until Aurangzeb emerged. He used religion to consolidate his position and he needed money to run his military campaigns. Persecution was more prevalent during his time. He did demolish many Hindu temples and built mosques over them. But Mughals before and after him had been extremely tolerant and benevolent to the public.

Posted by KPSingh01 | Report as abusive

Shahidkhan,
watch the length of your cut and paste, I can also spam.

Posted by netizen | Report as abusive

@”Read VS Naipaul’s book “Among the believers
>> this man is a world renowned racist. you keep reading his books.” Posted by shahidkhan123

You mean “Pakistan renowned”. The guy has won more international literary awards (including the nobel prize) than all Pakistani authors put together. Just becuase you guys don’t agree with his views, doesn’t make him a racist. BTW, his wife is Pakistani.

Posted by Mortal1 | Report as abusive

“>> did i say you could talk to me pak-attention lover? you love to eat our – don’t you?”

This is NOT yor mother’s backyard, where only pigs are allowed to enter. It’s a blog on the world wide web, owned by a canadian company. I have no interest in talking to a numbskull but if you put your nonsense up here, expect a response. If you don’t like it, go to Pakistani chat room or something & grunt your tiny balls off.

“we take your babes and you take our dogs!”

I mentioned about his Pakistani wife to disprove your notion about him being a racist but a degenerate that you are, you can’t think beyond shallow superficiality. What babes are you talking about anyways? Reality check -today, Indian women don’t even like to crap on pakistani guys. Quit flattering yourself!

Posted by Mortal1 | Report as abusive

Shahidkhan,

I do have some reference about violent conversions during the spread of Islam. However, I am not taking your bait here. Your goal has been to trigger me to provide the details and bring in Rehmat into clashing with me. In addition, your hope would be to bring in more offended Muslims and turn this whole discussion into a Muslim vs non Muslim sword fight. I am not taking that bait. If you believe Islam spread from thin air everywhere, that’s fine with me. I know folks like you and have dealt with such warped people. Your ilk will try to derail the conversation with ideological issues and derive extensive fun out of it. Try your trick somewhere else. Your massive spam list about India itself shows how much you hate us and you are telling me that I hate you guys! Since that did not work, you are trying to bring in the religious discussion. Good luck.

Posted by KPSingh01 | Report as abusive

Shahidkhan: “this man is a world renowned racist. you keep reading his books.”

Have ever read any of his works? I see comments like these from people who have never had any exposure to others’ works and start making statements based on what they hear on the streets. Provide a valid reference to back up your statement that he is a racist. If you have read at least one of his books, quote the very lines that show that attitude in his writing. FYI, I have read all his works.

Posted by KPSingh01 | Report as abusive

tsk tsk, It’s a sad spectacle when a Pakistani with low self esteem, has to reffer to a self adulating article penned by another frustrated Pakistani, in order to massage his battered ego & shrinking weiner. I know, you guys are deperate but c’mon! No wonder, as per google, your country ranks #1 in porn searches. This one really cracked me up “This is the land of tall and good-looking men. No Asif Zardari, Nawaz Sharif and Pervez Musharraf are not the only ones.” :)

“>> Yes but Indian men like to get crapped on..”

Anyone, who can read english & has half a brain, can call out the chump who’s been taking loads of crap, squarely on his face & keeps asking for more (aren’t you the lucky one). Don’t worry, there’s plenty more where that came from. As long as you want it, I’ll keep dumping it. Your face seems quite worthy of it!

Posted by Mortal1 | Report as abusive

mortal1, you are good, man!

Posted by black_hawk | Report as abusive

no anger, buddy. I’m having fun (it’s good to take the gloves off, sometimes). Keep up the good work!

Posted by Mortal1 | Report as abusive

Shahidkhan123 said:

> With that said, I am not happy about the conditions of our minorities. I defend them EVERY chance I get (which sadly means nothing).

For what it’s worth, I believe you. I believe you and Umair have taken a decent and moral stand on this issue. Thank you for this. It’s important to acknowledge decency and human values when we see them and refrain from demonising each other.

> Is it an ideal situation? no.
Is it as bad as you think? no.

I readily acknowledge this. I’d also like you to extend exactly the same courtesy, no more and no less, to India. I have repeatedly told you that no Indian claims India to be Utopia, but that India is also not the hell-hole that you make it out to be. Let’s aim for balanced discourse, shall we? This has all been too juvenile.

Regards,
Ganesh Prasad

Posted by prasadgc | Report as abusive

The battle for Pakistan’s soul seem to have entered into its final stage. This is it, there is no time left. The time to defeat the bigots is now, otherwise they will burn Pakistan. The enemy within should be identified and eliminated. The government has to slowly and gradually apply the squeeze, seperate the Mosque and the state. It can be done, its doable. Pakistan is not a country that easily gives up on challenges. And make no mistake, without a strong and cohesive Pakistan Army such a challenge would become impossible. Reforms will be needed, education will have to be made compulsory, people should be lifted out of poverty. Only when progress will be made in tandem on all these factors, signs of improvement will start to appear. So guys, do not write Pakistan off just yet. Take care.

Posted by Umairpk | Report as abusive

Shahid

“Brother Rehmat,

“I am just trying to open your eyes to the sentiments of your fellow Indians.”
***Thanks for your concern. Keeping aside the cut paste and tit for tat, I like your views on several issues.

“If a pakistani makes a grammar mistake, you correct them.”
***Not me. Must be someone else. Check it. I do not even stop posters attacking Sikh turban or Muslim beard or Hindu what not, much less doing this editing work.

“Kp gets a free pass even on Indian Revisionism of Islam in south asia.”
***Read back I agreed with you. you want totally your way or highway, won’t work with me. I think you are good at prescribing to others to live in present while you are living in the past. How does this read if I say “Muslim conversion in India/South Asia has been absolutely peaceful. There have not been incidents where political might did not result in conversions?” Don;t you think this is pure crap, as pure as saying there was no peaceful conversion, it was all violent.

“My related question to you, and perhaps to the article also:
Do you think some minorities in Pakistan have converted to Islam due to some fear?

“Rehmat, i don’t want to give you the red pill in one dose. the full prescription can create a severe allergic reactions and a rejection by the brain.

Your question is an example of your NCERT training. Indians tell you that Pakistan was 15% minorities, now it is 3%. This decline is not due to more Pakistani evil but the fact that most minorities were in East Pakistan. West Pakistan has been the same.”
***red pill/brain, huh? lol is there blood/brain barrier here?

Khan Sahib, your brain for sure primed for misreading everything in 15 to 3% Hindu population theory and 1971 as explanation by Pakistanis. I was not talking about that. So keep your red pill safely in your front pocket. I thought you could connect my question to the conversion question and see gray areas. I was talking about 3% minorities in pakistan. With the anti-minority feelings in Pakistan and Hindus historically converting to Islam, and Christians also not minding that, it is possible that these minorities convert to Islam. This is not conversion by sword per se, but if it happens it will be called “by sword”. Do not be so defensive. It was just a question since you know the real deal there and I sitting in India might be having illusions.

Now Pakistan vs historical India. With Islam in contact with India since 7th century by traders and later attacked ruled by Turks/Mughal empire for several hundred years, the Muslim population is just 13%. I think it would have been much higher if sword had been used to convert. Most of the time, daily life was just fine and much better than what Pakistan is facing. Sufi saints, Sikhism/Gurus and Hinduism have been getting along well in the past and they were finding ways to live peaceful life, and commonalities, and they did. Same cannot be said about Pakistan. Minorities in Pakistan are not any better than Aurangzeb’s rule or are worse than his times. At least Muslims were safe during his time. Now everyone is getting killed in Pakistan.

@NCERT training! lol…Khan sahib, I am product of desi school system, which I heard in Pakistan is worse than Madrassa for the hatred they spread thru their curriculum. Check Pakistani report on this.

Peace, no pill!

Posted by rehmat | Report as abusive

An interesting thought:

If voluntary jihad by Pakistanis manages to win Kashmir at the cost of radicalisation of Pakistani society, would it count as a victory?

Because the capture of Kashmir through religious motivation has been the objective of Zia-ul-Haq’s Islamisation drive after the failure of the “secular” 1965 war, and the side-effects of that are now clear for all to see.

Regards,
Ganesh Prasad

Posted by prasadgc | Report as abusive

“If voluntary jihad by Pakistanis manages to win Kashmir at the cost of radicalisation of Pakistani society, would it count as a victory?”

GP-Pakistan will celebrate even that type of “victory”, Actually they only want only India to lose.

But funny thing is Pakistani society became radicalized and did not “get” Kashmir also. Another funny thing in Pakistan is Innocent people are dying in Bomb blasts and Morons survive to comment on Reuters. God must be very unfair if exists.

By saying this I don’t celebrate or support or plan (I know some Pakistanis believe that also) the killings of innocents. All I am saying is if somebody has to be get punished for spreading hate and violence it must be root not the branches.

Posted by punjabiyaar | Report as abusive

Any religion claiming to act in the name of God while issuing edicts to have its followers kill others not of their faith is absolute evil.

If God has seen fit to create a world of varying interpretations of his existence (or non-existence) so that his creations would use their interpretations to destroy each other, then he is no God worthy of worship. But since this is probably not the case and the Creator would not so engage in such a contradiction to his creations, it is far more likely the Imams that preach the need for such deeds are evil men who understand little of the nature of God.

And if your faith is so weak that you are incapable of living in a world of freedom such that you must create laws that will force conformity to your faith, then you don’t have faith, you have slavery.

Who is the righteous man? The man who lives where unjust laws force conformity to the religion, or the man who conforms to his faith in a world absent unjust religious laws and punishment?

If you need laws to keep your faith, you don’t need your faith.

Posted by NobleKin | Report as abusive

Wow … people like KP, Parasad and Punjabiyaaar are posing that they are very brainy and that they have a strong grip over the history and current affairs. But that is not the case, you guys are even unable to comment what the topic of the article is.
Coming back to the point, I disgree with Ms. Myra … as according to my point of view, the assassinations of Salman Taseer and Shahbaz Bhatti, are the sacrifices infact, and to accomplish something really great sacrifices are the must. More than Salman Tasseer, I consider Shahbaz Bhatti a Shaheeed, as he gave his blood for a bigger cause.
Pakistan is a great nation and we never gave up. We will erase all the evils from our society and we are continounsly working on it and giving our lives for the cause.

Posted by FarhanQureshi | Report as abusive

@Noblekin

Well said! I would suggest that your opening sentence should exclude the word ‘religion’ and replace it with ‘someone’. The religion is not active but the one who believes in some philosophy should be the addresse. No religion per say issues edicts to kill.

Rex Minor

Posted by pakistan | Report as abusive

@Mortal1
If you do not understand something, why do you tell us that and ask for explanation.
The answer to your question of sikhs get knocked down in the USA and Canada, is contained in KP statement of March 8, that the sikhs have been attacked for mistaken identity!

Rex Minor

PS all along I regard sikhs as victims, victim of the Hindu violence, victim of being regarded as a minority and treated as second and third class citizens of India. Vicms of heir own irrational decision to align themselves with Hindu majority instead of staying in Punjab wth muslims who have more commonality of cultures, despite many differences. Sikhs have also been in the forefrontto take on the worst from Pakistan, because of the Pakistan Indian relations. Why for Pete sake, why?

Posted by pakistan | Report as abusive

“all along I regard sikhs as victims, victim of the Hindu violence, victim of being regarded as a minority and treated as second and third class citizens of India.”

The problem here is, that your assessment about the past, present & future of sikhs in India, is just based on ONE unfortunate incident (1984 anti-sikh riots). As horrendous as that incident was, it was an aberration of sorts as there is no evidence of hindu violence against sikhs before or since that incident. Today, sikhs are settled all over India (not just Punjab) & they are one of the most affluent communities in India, if not the most. Have you ever been to India & if so, when was the last time?

Posted by Mortal1 | Report as abusive

No, I have not been to India and I thank God for this. I have always shied away from countries where Evil is at home and the children of Gandhi and Nehru have been inflicting more unjust and cruel atrocities on its own people than those sustained during colonial days. You try to relatavise everything and justify slavery in India since it occurs in other parts of he world. I have also bserved that you answer questions of others with a set of questions, this is something an Indian specialty not mine. Humility is what humans need and not arrogance and cynicism. I am not a judge nor do I pretend to be a saint, but let no one on this blog point fingers at Pakistan which is going through a difficult period for different reasons. There is no comparable slavery in Pakistan or China. Pakistani Govt is dumb enough to appoint a minority man as a Minister who could not even look after his own security rest alone for the security of the minorities. They appoined a Governor of Punjab who was always absent from his residence in Lahore and was raising questions about the law which he swore to uphold. The nincompup chartered accountant, turned businesman and head of a Provence. Mr Sardari was not able to protect his wife and to expect that Pakistan security is in the hands of the Gillani rif raf troops, this is a joke of the century and should be so recorded in the Guiness book.
Finaly if you believe that Sikhs are resilent and have the ability to forgive and forget, then it is noble of them. I could neither forget nor forgive such a crime if committed against my community. I am a straight forward very weak human.

Rex Minor

Posted by pakistan | Report as abusive

“No, I have not been to India and I thank God for this”

India should also thank god! The reason I brought this up, is to prove that most of your perceptions about India, are based on the anti-India voices, which have your ear. You hear & believe, what you want to, while ignoring the rest. No Indian would dispute or deny that there’s a lot of poverty in India & there are many social issues (including slave labor) which need to be fixed but no one can also dispute or deny the fact that India is making tremendous strides & most of it’s socio-economic indicators are pointing in the right direction. For a large country like India, it will take a few more decades, before the trickle down effect reaches all the stratas of society.

“You try to relatavise everything and justify slavery in India since it occurs in other parts of he world.”

I did not try to justify it. I was merely pointing at your selectiveness. You are quick to point a finger at India while ignoring others including muslim countries like Pakistan, Malaysia & Bangladesh and yor favorite country China.

“There is no comparable slavery in Pakistan or China”

That’s inacurate. Maybe not Pakistan, since it’s a much smaller country but China, most certainly.

“Finaly if you believe that Sikhs are resilent and have the ability to forgive and forget, then it is noble of them. I could neither forget nor forgive such a crime if committed against my community.”

People of most races, religions, nationalities or ethnicities have faced persecution and/or atrocities at some point in history. As a sikh, yes I’m angry at the perpetrators of the crimes aganist my people but I’m not going to hold all the people of a religion, accountable for the acts of a few evil individuals, just as I don’t hold all muslims accountable for atrocities commited by a few mughals, against our people. Nazis were also responisble for many horrendous crimes against humanity, should we hold all germans accountable for their acts? If all humans would have been incapable of forgiveness, the world would have ended a long time ago.

Posted by Mortal1 | Report as abusive

You certainly have a nobler attitude towards others than I have. I admit my weakness and short comings. Let us leave it at that. German third reich lost the war and this does not mean that the crimes committed by anglo saxons and the Soviets were less sinister than those of the third reich. Admitedly, Americans were the only party which got sucked into war by japanese attack. Winston churchil an stalin were nevertheless no heroes but simple criminals who were responsible for the deaths of millions innocent civilians, women and children whose cities were erased from the ground. Your one sided slogans against Nazi party is valid but biased and not fare, when you ignore the reality on ground an what prompted Hitler to come into power and went bezirk in attackng its neighbous. Nepolian was no different and the first ww was no different either nor the war of thirty years in Europe was any different. Today the Europeans want peace and we have peace, Indians and Pakistani citizens could learn from the european history and follow suit!! Alternatively they would face in the next a war for a century!!

Rex Minor

Posted by pakistan | Report as abusive

“Your one sided slogans against Nazi party is valid but biased and not fare, when you ignore the reality on ground an what prompted Hitler to come into power and went bezirk in attackng its neighbous.”

I would like to hear, what on earth can possibly justify the systematic democide of 11 million innocent civilians (6 million jews, Poles, Romanies, Soviets, Slovaks, disabled, gays etc). Can you justify 3 million children being gassed to death?

Posted by Mortal1 | Report as abusive

I would like to know the “ground reality” which led to such cruelty & lack of empathy from man towards his fellow man. I’ve been trying to make sense of it all for 17 yrs now (since I first read about the holocaust as a teenager) but have not fugured it out yet. I’d like to know the other side of the story.

Posted by Mortal1 | Report as abusive