India-Pakistan – cricket, spooks and peace

March 27, 2011

cricket  refugee“Cricket diplomacy” has always been one of the great staples of the relationship between India and Pakistan. The two countries have tried and failed before to use their shared enthusiasm for cricket to build bridges, right back to the days of Pakistan President Zia ul-Haq, if not earlier.

So when Indian Prime Minister Manmohan Singh announced last week that he was inviting Prime Minister Yusuf  Raza Gilani and President Asif Ali Zardari to watch the semi-finals of the Cricket World Cup in Mohali, India, the temptation was to dismiss it as an old idea.

Yes, it would be the first visit by a leader of either country to the other since the November 2008 attack on Mumbai.  Yes, the invitation came at a time when relations between the two countries were already thawing. And yes, the Middle East is changing so fast that you would expect –  in the way that warring siblings do — that India and Pakistan would bury their differences at a time when the outside world has become so unpredictable.

But the instinct for cynicism is unerring. India and Pakistan have tried and failed to make peace for so long that it is easy, lazily easy, to predict that this latest initiative will also come to nothing. Former Pakistan President Pervez Musharraf, himself a participant in cricket diplomacy in 2005, wrote it off in 2000:

`”We have been trying all kinds of bus diplomacy and cricket diplomacy and everything. Why has all of it failed? It has failed because the core issue was not being addressed … because there is only one dispute, the Kashmir dispute … others are just aberrations, minor differences of opinion which can be resolved,” he told The Hindu in an interview in 2000.

Yet even after Mumbai, even after years of fighting over Kashmir, even after all the failed diplomatic initiatives of the past, I still found myself regularly  checking on Google and Twitter to see whether Pakistan had accepted the invitation to the cricket match. When Zardari’s spokeswoman Farahnaz Ispahani announced on her Twitter feed that Gilani would be going to Mohali, the news was retweeted with the speed once reserved by traditional media for attendance at U.S.-Soviet summits.

Over the years, each time something like this has happened, enthusiasm about a breakthrough in India-Pakistan relations has been swiftly disabused.

Yet cynicism, lazy or otherwise, notwithstanding, there are a few reasons why we should allow for the possibility that this time might be different.

The first is Pakistan’s reassessment of its relationship with the United States.  For years Pakistan has looked to America to bolster its defences against India.  Yet America will never give Pakistan what it wants in terms of absolute loyalty. By definition, if you are in a “strategic relationship”, you expect your ally to take your side against your enemy. The United States, trying to straddle its alliance with Pakistan with its strategic and economic interests in India, can, and never will, do that.

And Pakistan, increasingly unwilling to put up with what it sees as bullying by the United States in return for financial aid, is arguably growing out of an unhealthy dependency.  Nowadays, you hear arguments that Pakistan is a big country of some 170 million people which no longer wishes to be a supplicant to the United States, and which, as described by Pakistani journalist Mosharraf Zaidi, is discovering a new kind of nationalism. For Pakistan, achieving that independence from the United States is easier done if it is not also at loggerheads with India.

The second reason to think that this time might be different comes from an increasing understanding of the need to improve relations between the intelligence agencies of the two countries.  Both the Inter-Services Intelligence (ISI) agency and the Research & Analysis Wing (R&AW) are ultimately inheritors of a system set up by the British to maintain colonial rule and as such remain secretive and somewhat apart from the countries they serve.

Their ways of challenging each other, whether in Kashmir or Afghanistan, are so rarely debated in the media that we have little idea about what is going on in the behind-the-scenes battles between the ISI and R&AW.

In an interview earlier this year, Musharraf, speaking from his own experience of running Pakistan, was clear that an improvement in relations between the ISI and R&AW was needed.

“ISI and R&AW have always been confrontational, since 1948, since our inception,” he said. “This tit-for-tat has been going on over the last 60 years; both are to blame or not to blame; both should share responsibility for all that is happening.” Adding that it should not just be Pakistan that is blamed, he said,  “It’s mutual. I think India and Pakistan need to sit down and stop this confrontation.”

B. Raman, formerly at R&AW, has made a not too dissimilar argument. Calling for the revival of past contacts between the ISI and R&AW, he wrote that, ”it has always been my view that such liaison contacts on a sustained basis may not lead to any substantive results, but will enable the officers of the two organisations to assess each other in flesh and blood instead of relying on source and media reports.”

The Times of India has meanwhile reported that India is keen to open a dialogue with the Pakistan Army and the ISI to ”open up new possibilities of deepening Indo-Pak engagement”. That would be a major departure for India, which has been very uncomfortable in the past about the idea of talking to the Pakistan Army during periods of democratic government. In a country where the military has always been subvervient to the civilian government, India has traditionally had strong reservations about acknowledging the power of the Pakistan Army in setting foreign and security policy. The Times of India report, if confirmed, and reciprocated, would represent a significant change in the ground rules of India-Pakistan dialogue.

All in all, given the many disappointments of the India-Pakistan peace process over the decades, I would assume that much work has already been done behind-the-scenes to prepare for the ”Mohali thaw”. So I’m not going to write it off as mere cricket diplomacy. It may be bigger than it looks.

 


Comments

@shoibo
Most of the so called Indians on this blog are harmless, some are zombies from canada and NY. They have lived their times and are unwanted guests on Pakistan Blog, since they regard Pakistan as a source of their plight from the land which is now Pakistan. Your leaders have as of todate not understood the psyche of the Indian people, both hindus, sikhs and muslims. They regard the creation of Pakistan as a separate country, as the greatest sin committed in the subcontinent, whereas successive Pakistan Govts have been presenting themselves to India as the victims, and asking for freedom for the kshmiris. Indian Govts. have taken every opportunity to hurt and break Pakistan, several wars, direct intervention to defeat Pakistan Army in former East Pakistan and compelled Pakistan to acquire nuclear weapons. Pakistan army on the other hand have been shooting in their own feet, simultaneously suppressing its own people to the extent that today Pashtoons and Baluchis are at odds with the Govt. No one likes to suffer loss of dignity even if one tells them that the injuries were caused by one’s own Govt. The facts are that Pakistan military sent Bhutto to gallows and declined to protect Benazir Bhutto. Mr zardari was unable to look after his flamboyant wife, and despite several years experience in the prison is not the right leader for Pakistan. Forgive me, I have no intention to evaluate the occurances whether they were justified r not but these things did happen. Pashtoons and Baluchis do not forgive their contrahand in generations. Pakistan needs reforms, education reforms, military reforms to make it a national army, new civil institutions, a code of loyalty for the jounalists who are tranplants from India but have proven long ago that they are mismatchs. There are no text books to teach ex colonial people how they can become independent! I have not read anything about the decolonsation program in your countries.
I am not an enigma but Pakistan definitely is?

Rex Minor

Posted by pakistan | Report as abusive
 

Ganesh: “There’s something going on, and it’s not as clean as the Pak establishment narrative.”

The following link raises that question:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/mar  /29/balochistan-pakistans-secret-dirty- war

Posted by KPSingh01 | Report as abusive
 

There are absolutely injustices going on in Baluchistan and our govt. and military better learn some lessons from 1971. Let me give you an example my father has always given us. Karachi has plenty of ‘Sui Gas’ (Liquified Natural Gas) but the areas surrounding Sui in Balochistan do not. This has been going on since the 50s.

I drove to Ormara on the Makraan coastal highway (beautiful drive btw), I sensed uncharacteristic lack of hospitality (for Pakistanis). Nothing blatant occurred but just a feeling I had. Who can blame them for cheering Indians? If Indians are looking for heated arguments over the incompetence of Pakistani politicians and power-brokers, you won’t find them in Pakistani forums!

What I find interesting in Indian comments is an almost knee-jerk reflex to make parallels to Baluchistan on a self-serving basis. Baluchistan was brought up earlier in this thread. I pointed to the differences between Baluchistan and Kashmir… there were no takers and the discussion moved to swiftly to the next talking point.

Pakistan’s invasion of Kashmir and the dismissal of Junagadh is another example of hyper-patriotism if not outright hypocrisy.

Pakistan is vilified as an aggressor while every possible legal, philosophical, circumstantial, conjectural and sometimes blatantly contradictory argument is given to India’s aggressive posture in Gurduspur, Junagadh, Hyderabad, Kashmir, Goa, Sikkim, Thag La, Siachen, East Pakistan, Maldives, Sri Lanka, Bangladesh, Nepal etc.

All scenarios our given legitimacy on one pretext or another. Come on yaar, even Sachin mistimes a shot every once a while.

You tell us to search our souls as we should. When will you do the same?

Rex,
Pakistan is undoubtedly an enigma :) What do you mean by ‘journalist transplants from India that are mismatches’? Why is your id Pakistan?

Posted by shoaibo | Report as abusive
 

“Zombies from Canada”. LOL. I have no idea what that means but it just sounds funny.

Posted by shoaibo | Report as abusive
 

Just because Baluchistan is not an international dispute like Kashmir, it does not make the freedom struggle of the Balochs any less credible than that of the Kashmiris or justify the injustices & atrocities being committed by the Pakistani establishment on the Baloch people for decades. East Pakistan was not an international dispute either.

Posted by Mortal1 | Report as abusive
 

I pointed to the differences between Baluchistan and Kashmir.
Posted by shoaibo
====
I agree.

FIRST,

The Baluchis had never subscribed to TNT/Pakistan ideology i.e. muslim-vs nonmuslim hate ideology.  To a Baluchi Muslim, his Hindu neighbor is/ has always been his blood brother. Even through all communal violence, the Baluchis protected and took care of their tiny minority Hindus, and their temples. Whereas the Baluchi muslim considers the Punjabi Muslim  his mortal enemy, the usurper, occupier.They were forcibly annexed into Pakistan.  

Here is the Balochi version of how they were enslaved:

http://www.bso-na.org/files/The_Illegal_ Annexati_478B7B.pdf

SECOND,
Baluchis are being reduced to minority status in their own ancestral land through through forced settlement of Punjabis. This is the opposite of Kashmir valley, where they have ethnic cleansed their own Hindu community and other Indians are unable to buy land or property within their own country.

THIRD,

Baluchi muslims just want freedom in their own land and don’t have any supremacist territorial ambitions and theirs is a secular, humanistic freedom struggle. Whereas the Kashmir valley muslims want to rule over Hindus, Sikhs, Buddhists in Jammu and Ladakh, who fear “freedom” for valley muslims will be hell for them and are totally opposed to the Kashmiri “freedom struggle”. 

Posted by netizen | Report as abusive
 

Shoaibo: “In your statement, perhaps unintentionally, you seem to admit Kashmiris consider India their enemy. Pakistan is not a friend but the enemy’s enemy.”

I wouldn’t say all Kashmiris. There are a sizable number of Muslims who have an antipathy to India due to obvious reasons. They were not like that prior to 1988. When people face constant searches, arrests, torture, disappearance of near and dear ones, lack of justice and emotions will turn anyone against the existing establishment. I do not say that Indian system is not brutal. It is like this all over the country. Pakistan is no exception either. Brutality is not confined to Kashmir alone. Therefore this selective protest against a “cruel” Indian system for the sake of Kashmiris alone baffles me. British Intelligence system has been recently accused of out sourcing torture based investigations to Pakistan. There was some furor with Musharraf justifying it recently. If you feel for others, please do not feel selectively. Everyone needs justice. Not just Kashmirs because some of them seem to be aligning with Pakistan’s political objectives.

Posted by KPSingh01 | Report as abusive
 

Shaibo,

Just ignore Rex Minor. Do not respond. We all have been doing that for a while now. He is seeking attention. Just ignore him. Let us move on with more mutual understanding of our view points. Thanks for sharing your time with us.

Posted by KPSingh01 | Report as abusive
 

I would like to applaud the level of knowledge here. I learned some new things especially from KP Singh. The POV about Kashmir as a buffer zone from both China and the historic invasion route of Khyber Pass were most interesting. Mr. Rex was just plain old interesting. I want to thank you for the courtesy extended to me.

Regards.

Posted by shoaibo | Report as abusive
 

Shaibo,
You should listen to Mr. Singh. He is the director of this blog. He knows what is good for you and Pakistan. Now he will detail that mutual understanding for you and all. You will be assimilated.

Posted by Matrixx | Report as abusive
 

Matrixx: “You will be assimilated”

Some fear! Don’t worry, we will not pollute your pure hearts.

Posted by KPSingh01 | Report as abusive
 

Shoaibo

I read your comment that father of your Indian Muslim friend kept a photograph of Ayub Khan with him. I guess this is hangover of older generation. New generation of Muslims will be different in India, not in Kashmir though. perhaps speculation.

The idea of my comment on Indian Muslims and Kashmiri Muslims cheering for Pakistani team was to drive home the point that this should not be interpreted as their willingness to live in Pakistan. I am sure you know about Indian Muslims, but not clearly not about Kashmiri Muslims. This is reflected by your question what will be their pick between India and Pakistan if given choice. It is dangerous guess work driven by our bias. Either answer can sound reasonable.

**********************

On lighter note, I found this comment on cricinfo hilarious.

“Haar kar jeetne wali ko hi Baazigar kehte hain
aur one day ko test match style me khelne wall ko misbah” :-)

Although I am laughing at that comment, personally I consider Misbah as a match winner who can turn the match around anytime. He just did not have support and did not have the luxury to do what was expected from him.

Posted by rehmat | Report as abusive
 

correction:

““Haar kar jeetne wali ko Baazigar kehte hain
aur one day ko test match style me khelne wall ko misbah” :-)

Posted by rehmat | Report as abusive
 

Shoaibo,

I must admit you do make very good points, and an honest person would find them hard to deal with. Discomfort is a good sign, because it means one’s own perceptions are being challenged in a way that cannot easily be dismissed. They only way out is to change one’s opinions and worldview, and that hopefully brings the opposing parties closer.

I commend you on your honest admission of problems on the Pakistani side and your personal examples with regard to Baluchistan. Your flexible attitude should make it easier for Indians to admit to a few “mistimed shots by Sachin”.

You said:

> What I find interesting in Indian comments is an almost knee-jerk reflex to make parallels to Baluchistan on a self-serving basis.

Guilty as charged. I guess it’s a kind of cheap consolation to even the score, and it’s true that “You guys are doing something bad too” isn’t really a good counter-argument. Both sides need to face facts, because justice for ordinary people everywhere is more important than nationalistic point-scoring.

OK, for what’s it’s worth, many of us do accept the analogy of Kashmir (for Pakistan) to Junagadh and Hyderabad (for India), and that’s significant progress, as you said.

You also said:

> Pakistan’s invasion of Kashmir and the dismissal of Junagadh is another example of hyper-patriotism if not outright hypocrisy.

So now we move on from initial legitimacy to military action in support of such claims, and there is once again a parallel. India moved militarily against Junagadh and Hyderabad, while Pakistan tried to do the same against Kashmir. There are some differences, but we could see them as technicalities, such as instruments of accession and the infeasibility of Pakistani intervention in the Hyderabad and Junagadh cases. The overall scenarios are roughly the same. The big difference in outcome has been that India succeeded in Junagadh and Hyderabad, while Pakistan did not (fully) succeed in Kashmir. The populations of Junagadh and Hyderabad have accepted the accession to India and there is no freedom movement in either territory. Kashmir still simmers, and there is a desire for independence there. From a Pakistani viewpoint, I can understand the frustration that Pakistan alone is seen as the aggressor while India’s analogous aggression has been forgotten.

> Pakistan is vilified as an aggressor while every possible legal, philosophical, circumstantial, conjectural and sometimes blatantly contradictory argument is given to India’s aggressive posture in Gurduspur, Junagadh, Hyderabad, Kashmir, Goa, Sikkim, Thag La, Siachen, East Pakistan, Maldives, Sri Lanka, Bangladesh, Nepal etc.

Let’s just stick to Kashmir, Junagadh and Hyderabad for now. You’re muddying the waters by mentioning places where India has much stronger arguments, most of all East Pakistan, which is a case study of Pakistani genocide and Indian intervention to halt that genocide, and not at all an example of Indian aggression. If we stick to these three places, then yes, it could be considered hypocritical. I guess one way forward is to admit the parallels and think about “where do we go from here?”

> You tell us to search our souls as we should. When will you do the same?

Good point. Treat this post as a response to your invitation. Where do we go from here?

While historically, both sides have made mistakes, I must say I still sympathise with the “modern” Indian position, which has two options:

1. If we want to respect the aspirations of the Kashmiri people, then this must include all of Kashmir, not just the Indian-held part. And any plebiscite must include true independence. I don’t see much flexibility on the Pakistani side (either officialdom or bloggers) in terms of willingness to put AJK and GB on the table, especially when independence is made a possibility! There are also the complications of the displaced Kashmiri Pundits whose opinions must also count, and the possibly independent will of the people of Jammu and Ladakh. This is a messy way forward, but it can be justified on the basis of respecting people’s will.

2. Or we can accept and formalise the status quo, because history has shown us that the current situation will most probably continue anyway. We can then approach the issue again after a few decades of peace and good relations. It may then be conceivable to effect political changes that seem unacceptable today. Let’s face it, any Indian or Pakistani leader who agrees to give up territory in today’s climate faces political suicide or even assassination. It is politically infeasible for borders to move today, and it may be more prudent to leave that to a future generation that is calmer and wiser.

Do you think there is any real alternative to these two options? Jihad in its various forms has been tried, and it not only doesn’t work, it creates blowback. The “indigenous” struggle for independence may turn out to be just people letting off steam with no real serious intent to secede. There’s probably no point hoping for a miracle to change the borders and gift Kashmir to Pakistan.

My point has always been that India and Pakistan are much greater than Kashmir, and we shouldn’t let this small issue hamper the far bigger opportunity for the two countries to progress together and for South Asia to emerge as the most economically important region in the world. This is not about neglecting Kashmir or ignoring the rights of the Kashmiris. It’s about tackling the most important thing for the two countries, which is improving the quality of life of all our people. For that, we need cooperation, not hostility. There seems to be more willingness on the part of India to pursue such friendship and cooperation. Pakistan still seems stuck on the Kashmir issue.

What are your thoughts?

Regards,
Ganesh Prasad

Posted by prasadgc | Report as abusive
 

Dear Rehmat. Neither Pakistanis nor Indians are asking for your Indian Muslim Loyalty badge. You need not present disclaimers at the beginning of every post. It is evident in your utter disregard for ‘Indian’ Muslimas in Kashmir. I think you see in Chatham poll’s result some sort of Indian victory over Pakistan. There are lessons only for Pakistan in its results. Since all other barometers are unacceptable, perhaps we could invite Chatham for a poll that resembles the two options provided in the U.N. resolution. Let’s allow my bias to be exposed so that we can both declare Jai Hind!

Posted by shoaibo | Report as abusive
 

Since the discussion has moved from cricket to Kashmir (what a surprise!), I must say that the Indian govt needs to get the ball rolling & start appeasing the kashmiris, if it wants to retain the valley. IMO, systematically rolling back the army & introducing economic reforms is the need of the hour in Kashmir. The Kashmiri youth need to be educated, trained & put to work. What they really need, is not an independent country surrounded by gigantic wolves but peace, prosperity & an honourable life. This was evident in the recent recruitment camp held by the Indian army, which has attended by thousands of kashmiri youth. India, with it’s growing economic resources can bring about the much needed prosperity to the valley.

Posted by Mortal1 | Report as abusive
 

Shoaibo said:

> perhaps we could invite Chatham for a poll that resembles the two options provided in the U.N. resolution.

That’s an excellent idea. A lot of hypotheses can be proven or rejected based on these results. Of course, people are known to vote differently in opinion polls and in real elections/referenda (the Bradley and reverse Bradley effects), but a formal opinion poll may be better than mere conjecture fed by one’s own biases and perceptions. I for one would like to see the results of such a poll.

The main question is, will the Pakistani government allow such a poll, given the red faces caused by the previous one?

Regards,
Ganesh Prasad

Posted by prasadgc | Report as abusive
 

Prasad
I looked Chatham House poll source. There is only half page summary on their site. There is nothing on methodology or full set of questions or geographical distribution. The data is not even tabulated. The percent numbers don’t add up to 100 percent. Are there any reviews in any Indian or Pakistan or Kashmiri publications? I would not spend more than five minutes on such garbage.
More garbage from your masters you love to hate.

Posted by Matrixx | Report as abusive
 

prasad, the purpose of the laundry list is to debunk the whole “Pakistan is evil aggressor” notion. Truth be told, I really don’t care what you did in Sri Lanka or Sikkim. It is one thing to be given justifications for all territorial acquisitions but to be called the regional land grabber adds insult to injury.

My suggestion is simple. Get all parties involved. The Pakistanis, Indians, Northern Areas, AJK, Muslims, Sunnis, Shias, Pandits, Sikhs, Buddhists. I would say even the Chinese but they are more stubborn with India than India is with Pakistan. Am I missing anyone else?

Historically, Pakistan offered for both armies to vacate Kashmir to hold the plebiscite. This is understandable due to India’s absorption of principalities and the rigging of elections in Kashmir. More recently, Pakistan has dropped claims on Laddakh & Leh. Kashmiri majority muslims have too. Pakistan has offered freezing of LOC but Kashmiris have not. Pakistan may even give up Azad Kashmir to an independent Kashmir. Surely there are options other than “Integral part of India” & “Kashmir bunay gah Pakistan”.

60 years have made all parties flexible except extremists. To even consider a compromise would be an affront to India’s pride and global ambitions.

My own opinion is that If India wishes to realize its global potential, it will have to first demonstrate leadership in her own neighborhood.

——————

On a separate topic, you had asked about Pakistanis cultural aversion. I told you I was one of the people protective of our local arts. Listen to this beautiful poetry in Pashto (there are translations). There is no debate or argument here just something worth sharing..

Have a listen:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=flNNwRtTs BI

Posted by shoaibo | Report as abusive
 

Mortal,

You can try throwing money at the problem but Kashmiris have been stubborn since the days of Mughals and Dogras. Muslim people as a political unit are not as easily bought as Muslim leaders. Kashmiris are becoming opportunistic with the new opportunities presented by India. They plan on using everything from medical schools to bayonet training only to fuel their movement for self-determination.

At any rate, I would suggest that you let Prasad explore alternatives. 2 fools day-dreaming will not shift the line of control in either direction.

Posted by shoaibo | Report as abusive
 

I am so touched by these photographs:

http://www.dawn.com/2011/03/31/images-yo u-do-not-normally-see.html?pid=15217

Afridi might have lost the game to India. But he has definitely won the hearts of many Indians.

Posted by KPSingh01 | Report as abusive
 

Why does everyone call me Prasad? A rather British form of address (“Hey, Willoughby!”)

Regards,
Ganesh Prasad

Posted by prasadgc | Report as abusive
 

Shoaib :”Pakistan offered for both armies to vacate Kashmir to hold the plebiscite”.

Could you substantiate that with evidence, I could not find anything officially from pakistan mentioning that.
Also, what stops the pakistani politicians or senior journalists from openly offering such aa advice in resolving the issue.

What ever the way forward in Kashmir is, no politician in India (or pakistan for that matter) has the wherewithal politically to accept a dilution in sovereignty or change in Line or Control disfavouring their current position.

If a referendum is to be taken up, dont you think demilitarisation of the populated areas is enough rather than complete withdrawl of the army from their respective borders.

Moreover the referendum must be conducted district wise (for full Kashmir AZ and GB included) because the kashmir is pluralistic society with sunni muslims in valley, shias, buddhists in ladakh, hindus in jaamu,dogras,bakarwals in kargil districts etc. The districts which opts for India should be completely integrated with India abolishing 370 article there (Indeed people in jammu and ladakh have been demanding the same) and the districts which vote for independence must be given complete autonomy under pre 1953 status where only foreign affairs,communications,currency and security remains with the centre (of respective governments). The Autonomy for these districts should not be a problem since in constitution, we already have autonomous hill counsils like in Nagaland (in pakistan they have tribal counsils or Federally Administered
Tribal areas which are semi-autonomous). As the Chatham poll suggests of the 18 districts in kashmir(in indian side) 4 to 5 districts may support independence (all of them in kashmir valley) they are baramulla,srinagar,badgam and ananthnag (and perhaps pulwara). The conditions that this autonomy must be granted is too see the existence of regular elections being held for these districts under election commission of India (same for pakistan on their side) and not a single rupee can be expected by these districts from india, other than exports earned and taxes which they pay to the central autonomous council of their respective kashmirs (Central Autonomous Cousil of Indian Kashmir and Central Autonomous Counsil of Pakistan Kashmir).

Same should happen to districts in Azad kashmir and Gilgit Baltistan. This provision will probably give them their independent aspirations under the respective countrie’s constitutions and provisions like income for the autonomous counsils that can come only from their taxes and exports will diincentivise them to play blackmail with their respective central governments for freebies. And encourage them to absolve voilence and encourage tourist friendly policies.

That in my opinion is the one solution. what do you say?

Posted by sensiblepatriot | Report as abusive
 

Oh I forgot to Add,
As these districts have voted for independence and have clinched fists to be a Seperate Country, they should behave as a seperate country. The taxes they should acquire thorugh mobilising the resources from their own districts (and no donations), the people in these districts cannot buy a land in india (and no seperate goodies like reservations in jobs and education which exist now. Geelani’s and seperatist’s sons study in Delhi and other universities under kashmir reservation)and are citizens of these districts only. They do not have to take the pain to vote in loksabha (central) elections and so politicians will not lust for their support. Since these four/five districts cannot be given a country status we should provide maximum autonomy to let it behave like a country.

Posted by sensiblepatriot | Report as abusive
 

Shoaibo said:

> Listen to this beautiful poetry in Pashto (there are translations). There is no debate or argument here just something worth sharing..

Very nice indeed. Thanks for sharing. (Had to rely on the English translation since I don’t understand Pashto, except for a familiar word here and there).

I feel sad when I visit India and see the number of TV channels and programs that seem to be devoted to “filmi” themes. Bollywood and the regional film industries seem to be crushing other forms of art. But on the bright side, I see many more young people becoming interested in classical music (both Hindustani and Carnatic) and many more books by Indian authors on bookstore shelves. So perhaps there’s no real need to panic. As countries get richer and people get more time for leisure and more discretionary income, culture also thrives.

I hope that holds true for Pakistan as well. I very much enjoyed the Sufi and fusion music at Coke Studio (Rahat Fateh Ali Khan, Ali Azmat, Arif Lohar, Meesha Shafi, etc.)

Regards,
Ganesh Prasad

Posted by prasadgc | Report as abusive
 

@hoibo
Zombie is a soulless body, a dead person which is revived by a magician and remains his slave. It also has supernatural abilities. Yu wwill learn to know them yurself on this blog. Stick for some time, they can also turn into a MOB. They are in this state because their relatives were brutaly murdered, became vicims and some supr natural magician have revived them. They are harmless but can become very aggressive too.
Now you have got all the knowledge. By the way instead of being inquisitive have you ever thought of going for higher studies. The Pashto singer has a very melodiusvoice. In translation I would use the word rose nstead of a flower.
Have a nice discussion with the Indian bloggers. The security on this blog is not very secured and after they allocated the name ‘Pakistan’ to one of post I am getting used to it and even like some discomfor to Indian bloggers. Have a nic day Mr Shaibo.

Rex Minor

Posted by pakistan | Report as abusive
 

@Shoaibo
Sorrymy note book is acting strange and have misspelled a number of words. I am sorry, I am sure you would understand the sentence. Have a nice day.

Rex Minor

Posted by pakistan | Report as abusive
 

Rex
Thanks for your analysis of German political trends.

Posted by Matrixx | Report as abusive
 

@Shoaibo

“Dear Rehmat. Neither Pakistanis nor Indians are asking for your Indian Muslim Loyalty badge. You need not present disclaimers at the beginning of every post. It is evident in your utter disregard for ‘Indian’ Muslimas in Kashmir. I think you see in Chatham poll’s result some sort of Indian victory over Pakistan.”

*** I am not here to play games. I say what I say and say pretty clearly. I am trying to understand and give my 2 cents on the issue. I present examples about those who are close to me on cricket support and today they supported India. You must be hurt by Indian win (or Sri Lankan loss). If you know everything on Indian and Pakistani Muslims behalf, what am I doing here. Every Pakistani knows some Indian Muslism’s dad or uncle. Thayt os good but let us keep it at that.

No need to put words into my mouth like I am explaining the loyalty or whatever.

What an utter crap fot you to say “It is evident in your utter disregard for ‘Indian’ Muslimas in Kashmir.”

I am not fond of you jumping to conclusions. What is that utter disregard btw let me know, I can split hair with you.

Now would you like to share in my joy that Indian won the cricket world cup.

Peace!

Posted by rehmat | Report as abusive
 

Rex,

There is no need to belittle my lack of higher education. Sometimes circumstances don’t allow for advanced degrees. I admire and respect Germans. The same perfectionist trait that can create marvels of engineering can sometimes lose a poem in the technicality. From my illiterate perspective, this is a gift and a curse.

There is no harm in talking to the Indians. I have no state secrets to give. I do think a ban on your comments by our democratic friends is a travesty. Your comments are interesting and deserve reply. Actually, any German that speaks Pashto needs to be heard just on the basis of uniqueness.

btw, Wouldn’t a gulaab by any other name smell as sweet?

Posted by shoaibo | Report as abusive
 

Dear Rehmat, You like to taunt and you are hyper-sensitive. This is an uneasy combination. I recommend you drop one of the two traits. In sports, Pakistanis don’t generally celebrate the losses of others with impromptu firecrackers (or Klashnikovs in our case). We came close when Australia did not win its 4th WC but lost interest. We only mourn our own losses. Congratulations on a well-earned victory by the tournament powerhouse.

Jai Hind!

Posted by shoaibo | Report as abusive
 

@Shoaibo

“You like to taunt and you are hyper-sensitive. This is an uneasy combination.”

***I apologize if I hurt you dear.

I go with the flow of the traffic. By that I mean I am hypersensitive or wonder at those who make allegations such as “It is evident in your utter disregard for ‘Indian’ Muslimas in Kashmir.” That is quite a serious allegation, don;t you think so? you are the one to pull the trigger.
Neither you a Pakistani Muslims nor me an Indian Muslim or for that matter can take Kashmiris for guaranteed.

All I did so far has talked few issues: Chatham House poll, green flags in Kashmir/cricket support by Kashmiri Muslims as majority being pro-Pakistan (a point which you have been trying to make that Kashmiris have abandoned you “the family”). I cited personal experience on cricket support by Indian Muslims and the meaning of it and today I wrote to you that same Indian Muslims who supported Pakistan in semis (some of my cousins) supported India in finals. What is in it that has you dislike. let us handle it maturely.

If you have anything specific, I am ready to talk to you.

Thanks for the Rx though. Let us both use it.

Posted by rehmat | Report as abusive
 

@Shoaibo

“You like to taunt and you are hyper-sensitive. This is an uneasy combination.”

***I apologize if I hurt you dear.

I go with the flow of the traffic. By that I mean I am hypersensitive or wonder at those who make allegations such as “It is evident in your utter disregard for ‘Indian’ Muslimas in Kashmir.” That is quite a serious allegation, don;t you think so? you are the one to pull the trigger.
Neither you a Pakistani Muslims nor me an Indian Muslim or for that matter can take Kashmiris for guaranteed.

All I did so far has talked few issues: Chatham House poll, green flags in Kashmir/cricket support by Kashmiri Muslims as majority being pro-Pakistan (a point which you have been trying to make that Kashmiris have abandoned you “the family”). I cited personal experience on cricket support by Indian Muslims and the meaning of it and today I wrote to you that same Indian Muslims who supported Pakistan in semis (some of my cousins) supported India in finals. What is in it that has you dislike. let us handle it maturely.

If you have anything specific, I am ready to talk to you.

Thanks for the Rx though. Let us both use it.

Posted by rehmat | Report as abusive
 

Rehmat
Regarding Indian Muslims. Let’s openly talk about it. Indian establishment has used Indian Muslims as a cutting tip against Pakistan. This is from my personal experience. One commonly heard argument is that if Kashmir somehow goes to Pakistan, the price will be paid by Indian Muslims.
This is rich coming from secular democratic Indian population.
One thing you should know that after 1971, the idea that Pakistan is a home and protector of subcontinental Muslims is no more. Indian Muslims have to make their own destiny given their situation and involving Pakistan in positive or negative way is not going to work. If you have problems with your rights, you should fight for those rights.
Good luck.

Posted by Matrixx | Report as abusive
 

“I would not spend more than five minutes on such garbage.” Posted by Matrixx

There’s no need to trash the credibility of a fine organization, just because one of it’s polls refuted your false beliefs & claims. Chatham house’s analytical work is held in high regard & it is considered as one of the top five think tanks in the world.

“You can try throwing money at the problem but Kashmiris have been stubborn since the days of Mughals and Dogras. Muslim people as a political unit are not as easily bought as Muslim leaders.” Posted by shoaibo

I’m not talking about throwing money at the problem or about “buying kashmiri muslims”. I’m talking about bringing long term economic progress & prosperity to Jammu & Kashmir. The Kashmiri youth, sure did not seem very stubborn while thronging the recently held recruitment camps by the Indian army & Kashmiri police. I suspect, they would be even less stubborn at recruitment seminars held by India’s top private firms. From my POV, the “stubbornness of Kashmiris” seems more like wishful thinking on your part, more than anything else. Economic progress is a major factor in installing or maintaining peace in a state or nation & I believe that a gradual reduction of the Indian army & economic progress in kashmir will eventually take care of a lot of grievences, the Kashmiris have against the Indian govt. It’s unfortunate that the kashmiris have not experienced any of the economic success which the rest of Indians have, since instability in the valley coincided with the commencement of India’s economic rise. If they get a taste of that success, I’m sure their thinking will change over time.

“At any rate, I would suggest that you let Prasad explore alternatives. 2 fools day-dreaming will not shift the line of control in either direction.”

We’re here in our individual capacities & don’t represent any official position. Also, nobody really has a monopoly over ideas & we’re all entitled to throw in our 2 cents, no matter how worthless they might seem to some.

On another note, congrats to Indians all over the world for the cricket world cup victory. Enjoy the celebrations, no matter where you are!

Posted by Mortal1 | Report as abusive
 

Matrixx

“Regarding Indian Muslims. Let’s openly talk about it. Indian establishment has used Indian Muslims as a cutting tip against Pakistan. This is from my personal experience. One commonly heard argument is that if Kashmir somehow goes to Pakistan, the price will be paid by Indian Muslims.
This is rich coming from secular democratic Indian population.”
***I know you are using restraint naming some xyz non-Muslim community, which is fine. What you said is general feeling among Indian Muslims as well. There is historical evidence to that i.e., 1947. I have heard the same feeling among Sikhs living outside Punjab about Khalistan. Although Hindu-Sikh riots did not happen per se but creation of Khalistan would have led to 1984 type reaction (political riots). This was feeling among Sikhs outside Punjab and they were saying that those promoting are not watching their interests. I

Coming back to your other point
“Indian Muslims have to make their own destiny given their situation and involving Pakistan in positive or negative way is not going to work.”
***Perhaps I gave you wrong perception that I am expecting Pakistan to protect Indian Muslims interests. I agree with you and fully realize that Pakistan cannot become home for Indian Muslims. Not sure what led you to mention about rights of Indian Muslims.

Indian Muslims issue is a separate issue.
Thanks

Posted by rehmat | Report as abusive
 

Coming to the talk on Pakistan, Kashmir, Taliban etc, see this video interview of Tariq Ali, a famous Pakistani writer:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FFDcGnupj 8E

I am reading his book, “The clash of fundamentalisms, crusades, Jihads and modernity” right now. I have read and enjoyed his work “Duel.”

Posted by KPSingh01 | Report as abusive
 

Matrix, I also respectfully disagree. Chatham is a reliable source. Western institutions don’t care about our ‘petty squabbles’. If the land doesn’t have oil, they don’t care. There really is no surprise in the poll as far as independence goes. The surprise for me personally was the low numbers for Pakistan even in the cannibalizing answer-set. The Indians are ostensibly drawing the conclusion that Kashmir as a whole prefers India over Pakistan. In all likelihood they know fully well that the Pathans in Gilgit, Kashmiris in Azad or Muqzooba Kashmir have no love for India over Pakistan and certainly not over independence. The problem is not the source but the clever use of statistics to score a ‘point’.

The question we Pakistanis have to ask is if we are a distant second, how much blood and treasure should we spill for **their** cause? I have asked Kashmiris this question both in Muzzafarabad, relatives (by way of marriage) and on the internet. The answer they provide is something along the lines of Kashmir is Pakistan jugular vein. You can trust us with water as your amaanat but never the Indians. They even offer special visas for pakistanis! I asked them for their lack of support in 65, they claim poor communication by our military. I asked about their tilt towards India in the 50s, they tell me they were tricked by Nehru’s false promises. They even offer helpful advice on how best to help the Kashmiri cause: Acquire proportional economic parity with India.

I personally don’t want to lord over territory that does not want us. Pakistan has a good record in terms of respecting our neighbors. We negotiated with the Chinese to demarcate territory. We purchased Gwadar from Oman without threats. We respect Iranian Baluchestan from Pakistani Balochistan. We gave FATA their autonomy. We have respected the Durand line. We are not given credit for our record but it is a record worth keeping.

What do you think we should do?

Regards.

Posted by shoaibo | Report as abusive
 

KP,

His non-fiction work is brilliant with a wicked prose. If you have read Duel, then you have read them all. His fiction is below average as novels but interesting for weekend historians especially those interested in Islamic Civilizations of Andalus and Usmania “Ottoman” empire.

He is not your typical historian, he definitely has an agenda and not all of his assessments should not be taken as gospel. He works hard to be Arundhati Roy of Pakistan. Actually, I should say Roy works hard to be Indian Tariq Ali. He was also the inspiration for some famous Rolling Stones song.. I can’t recall.

I can’t stand the man but he is a good writer with an interesting viewpoint.

Posted by shoaibo | Report as abusive
 

Rehmat
The reason I raised the issue with you is that it has been frequently used by Indians. Few days back, I was watching some Indian peace delegation on TV and one Muslim member of Indian parliament mentioned that don’t forget Indian Muslim factor when discussing Kashmir.
You also bring in Sikh situation in Punjab. I’m ready to discuss it any time with Mr. Singh.

Shoaib:
Don’t take me wrong. I’m full supporter of Kashmiri right to decide freely their own future. It does not matter if the want to go independent, with India or Pakistan and I would go as far as their right to opt for China. It is one thing to get some trend information from a poll but I won’t hang millions of people on a poll for which I can’t find full details.

Jai Shindustan

Posted by Matrixx | Report as abusive
 

Shoaibo said:

> Pakistan has a good record in terms of respecting our neighbors. We negotiated with the Chinese to demarcate territory. We purchased Gwadar from Oman without threats. We respect Iranian Baluchestan from Pakistani Balochistan. We gave FATA their autonomy. We have respected the Durand line. We are not given credit for our record but it is a record worth keeping.

This has contributed something to my knowledge as well. I welcome discussions with people who have a different opinion as long as they are honest in debating their points. You have been genuinely contributing a different point of view without being too shrill and I think we Indians should take the opportunity to discuss issues in greater detail in the same spirit of enquiry and desire to learn and understand. We’re not going to accomplish anything on this blog except gain a greater understanding of each other, but that in itself would be a good outcome.

Please keep the discussion going.

Regards,
Ganesh Prasad

Posted by prasadgc | Report as abusive
 

@Shoaibo
Take it easy and do not sulk and come up with the complex which most from India and Pakistan are capable of! I am giving my comments as an observer on this blog for those who still possess the abiliy and the scruples to learn. Certainly not for the so called Indian Bloggers who like a pest have invaded this sight and are not going to let go. I like to learn withot asking direct questions or be asked to explain and expand my statements. I regard Myra Mcdonald the author, one of the finest because she appears to me to understand the psyche of the people of south east asians. I am keen to learn about the views of Pakistanis and find that most Pakistani blogs are crowded by Indian bloggers. They are rarely seen on blogs which deal with other world people. Admittedly I am not able to understand the impact of Kashmiri issue on Indian muslims. I guess this has not been thought over by the Pakistan leaders nor was fully understood by the leaders who brought about the birth of Pakistan. I personaly find that Kashmiris are one of the most non violent people that I have come across and cannot imagine for a minute that Indian denial of their aspiration is going to last for ever. I was born a free person and believe very strongly that every human has this inherent right.

Fear is the weakness of humans which restricts their options for good or bad. Those who are able to overcme the fear and have faith in justice are going to survive in the coming world. Technology finesse alone is not the future!

Rex Minor

PS Snotty comments are not welcome. I laid down the same rules for the Indian mob. Familiarity in my view creates misunderstanding and later the contempt!

Posted by pakistan | Report as abusive
 

@Shoaibo
Take it easy and do not sulk and come up with the complex which most from India and Pakistan are capable of! I am giving my comments as an observer on this blog for those who still possess the abiliy and the scruples to learn. Certainly not for the so called Indian Bloggers who like a pest have invaded this sight and are not going to let go. I like to learn withot asking direct questions or be asked to explain and expand my statements. I regard Myra Mcdonald the author, one of the finest because she appears to me to understand the psyche of the people of south east asians. I am keen to learn about the views of Pakistanis and find that most Pakistani blogs are crowded by Indian bloggers. They are rarely seen on blogs which deal with other world people. Admittedly I am not able to understand the impact of Kashmiri issue on Indian muslims. I guess this has not been thought over by the Pakistan leaders nor was fully understood by the leaders who brought about the birth of Pakistan. I personaly find that Kashmiris are one of the most non violent people that I have come across and cannot imagine for a minute that Indian denial of their aspiration is going to last for ever. I was born a free person and believe very strongly that every human has this inherent right.

Fear is the weakness of humans which restricts their options for good or bad. Those who are able to overcme the fear and have faith in justice are going to survive in the coming world. Technology finesse alone is not the future!

Rex Minor

PS Snotty comments are not welcome. I laid down the same rules for the Indian mob. Familiarity in my view creates misunderstanding and later the contempt!

Posted by pakistan | Report as abusive
 

I would not spend more than five minutes on such garbage.” Posted by Matrixx There’s no need to trash the credibility of a fine organization, just because one of it’s polls refuted your false beliefs & claims
Posted by Mortal1
==

http://tinyurl.com/3pdjoyd

LONDON: Embattled Libyan dictator colonel Muammar Gaddafi’s controversial second son, Saif Al Islam Gaddafi, attempted to contrive a pro-Pakistan opinion poll in Kashmir, but it boomeranged on him. The result published last summer by Royal Institute of International Affairs (also known as Chatham House) and Kings College, London, was contrary to Saif’s expectation.

Saif was then fresh from a visit to Pakistan occupied Kashmir (POK), where he was fed usual propaganda of mock refugee camps and the plight of Kashmiris in India compared to “paradise they experienced in Pakistan” .

Saif agreed. Brainwashed in Pakistan, he perhaps could not believe the findings would be anything other than in Islamabad’s favour. He was in for a rather rude shock. The plebiscite, as agreed at the UN in 1948, which Pakistan still demands, gave Kashmiris only two choices: either to remain with India or join Pakistan. In the event, Bradnock’s poll, the first ever to be held on both sides of LoC, unearthed that 98% of people in India-controlled J&K did not wish to be a part of Pakistan; and 50% in POK did not wish to remain with Pakistan, either.

Posted by netizen | Report as abusive
 

Meanwhile it is March 1971 in Baluchistan:

http://tinyurl.com/3mz7dmd

On March 22, the bullet-riddled and severely tortured body of Hameed Shaheen, former Chairman of the Baloch Students Organisation (BSO), was discovered in Quetta’s Sariab area. He had been abducted by the intelligence agencies two days earlier while on his way to Karachi……

……The politicians have relegated all authority to the FC, the intelligence agencies and the army, and are satisfied with presenting themselves as sidekicks to add respectability to events and projects that are run by the former……

….Qambar Chakar, Abdul Qayyum, Faiz Mohammad Marri, Zaman Khan Marri, Mehboob Wadhela — the list could go on and on — were all picked up by the FC and intelligence agencies in full view of the public and later their tortured bodies were dumped. Yet the governor expects the Baloch to not be angry. The numbers of angry Baloch keep rising in spite of, and because of, these atrocities.

Posted by netizen | Report as abusive
 

Matrixx

“The reason I raised the issue with you is that it has been frequently used by Indians. Few days back, I was watching some Indian peace delegation on TV and one Muslim member of Indian parliament mentioned that don’t forget Indian Muslim factor when discussing Kashmir.”

***”Indian Muslim factor” is no surprise to me. Is it to you? You will find this view among lots of Indian Muslims. I already commented about this in my previous post. Sikh issue was meant as another example in this context. We can leave that aside if you want.

Let me make it clear this does not amount to being insensitive about Kashmiri cause or supporting the atrocities over there. Let us appreciate the complexity of it.

Posted by rehmat | Report as abusive
 

Matrix,
I understand now. I think both of our position is in line with a majority of Pakistanis but not necessarily our govt. You are absolutely correct about a poll being a trend at a moment in time. I don’t think the Indian celebration of Chatham poll is to decide the fate of millions. India has ALREADY decided the fate of the teeming millions.

Forget Shindustan. I bleed green. I am Pak for life. I have my national identity card from Durra Market to prove it. :)

Rex,
It is true, there are not a lot of open forums on Pakistan not inundated with Indians. It does not afford us an opportunity to talk amongst ourselves or with others like yourself or with people like prasad. An example is the copy-paste from Times of India above with zero commentary. Try to Ignore the noise. Your comments are new and fresh. If you know Pashto, you know a thing or two about hospitality. Welcome.

Posted by shoaibo | Report as abusive
 

An example is the copy-paste from Times of India above with zero commentary. Try to Ignore the noise. Your comments are new and fresh.

Posted by shoaibo
==

As if you have responed to my commentary before :-)

“Try to Ignore the noise.” OTHERWISE, we have to face the reality.

“Your comments are new and fresh.” ROTFL!! Best joke on this blog EVER. BESIDES what a suprise ;-)

Posted by netizen | Report as abusive
 

“Indian establishment has used Indian Muslims as a cutting tip against Pakistan.” Posted by Matrixx

I would say, it’s the other way around. For a long time, the Pakistani military establishment has tried (in vain) to alienate Indian muslims & use them against India, in order to advance their own agenda. Watch Musharraf being grilled by an Indian maulana in this video.

http://bit.ly/oFGoE

Posted by Mortal1 | Report as abusive
 

The issue of Kashmir is raging in since six decades and no one can expect a breakthrough on that in a year or two.
But there are some facts which Indians have reconciled too, but it is hard to see even some educated pakistanis not as forthcoming and appreciative of our honesty.
I can explain broadly what Indians position is (although this is my personal opinion, some disagreements and intensity of the points differ from say KP Sigh to Ganesh)

1. It is true that Pakistan had a prima facie case for kashmir as there existed opposite paradoxes in junagadh and hyderabad. But pakistan did blow it up and at that moment atleast, India had an upper hand. No point in discussing the same legal pre-partition issue, when people of kashmir itself are not interested to join pakistan, even Chatham poll shows the trend. They may have no love for India but pakistan is a definitely no-no for them.

2.It is true that Human right abuses happened and no indian can deny that and we do sympathise that. we only deny the intensity pakistan has conjured it up. The human rights abuses happen not just in kashmir but even other places in India too and in other parts of the world too and in this case pakistan hands have more blood than Indians (see genocide in bangladesh by pakistan). Not that I am supporting the Human Right Abuses but is it not to be seen in the context of insurgency? This is the tactic Pakistanis implemented to its perfection in Afghanistan and with its success, in India. As India had better democratic structures and better equipped military, they were not successful.

3. In Geostrategic terms, Jammu and Kashmir (Indian administered) is a classic potpourri of different cultural identities. The Kashmir valley has about half the population living in just 7% of the area(Kashmir Valley, see J&K Map). And jammu people with 20 Percent of people living in 30 % of the area and buddhist ladhakis of 3 to 4% living in some 60% (ladakh and kargil) area. So this is a rare case of majority living in miniority area and minority living in majority geographical area of J&K. which means if a referendum is to be conducted, it has to be region wise and not as whole J&K. The region wise plebicite will perhaps shock pakistanis as that will result in majority of J&K still with India and a small valley with no resouces becoming independent of joining pakistan.

4.The Indian army placed in J & K is stationed because the Pakistan made it mandatory for India to place troops which were the result of the belligerence of pakistan for three times. The nation whose birth has come from voilence and whose belief in solving political problems in its own country (East pakistan or baluchistan) through force cannot be believed unless there is a fundemental shift in how pakistan conducts its statecraft and moves its locus centre of power to democracy and away from military.

5. If the pakistan’s tears for kashmir is to be considered as taking high moral standing, one wonders why they do not protest against similar and even more brutal state voilence against uighur province in china etc and we believe it smacks of intellectual honesty.

6. Even if we consider the pakistan’s moral support of kashmir is correct, Indians are left wondereing why its intelligence agencies support insurgencies in North-East of India which have no ideological and geostrategic basis or advantage for pakistan. How can we convince the hawks who say the pakistan’s raison d’être is simply undoing India.

7. When the Jammu and Kashmir elections were conducted last time, it was hailed as the most free and fair elections by the world community and India allows hundreds of foreign delegates every six years to check the fairness and getting a pulse on the more than autonomous election commission practises in conducting them. Why then in this atmosphere does the seperatists refuse to participate the Indian elections? if they are sure about thier support from people.

8. I donot know if Pakistani’s followed the Kashmir elections closely, but its a fact that most of the people in J&K vote in large numbers, especially kargil dogras ,the shias and silent sufi community in valley and Jammu (who are all muslims) and vote enthusiastically in indian elections and whose numbers are higher than indian average. The places where their numbers are really lower is in valley districts (which i mentioned in my previous post) which gets the most attention. I have once chatted with a pakistani in a pak defence forum and he is shocked to realize there are other minorites in kashmir and valley geographically is a small part of entire J&K, such is the propoganda machine which runs pakistan.

9. India, since kashmir’s accession had never in its 63 years tried to demographically change the state’s charecter even if it had ample oppurtunities and better legal reasons to do so, while pakistan pushed sunnis and pathans in AJK and GB and china moving their teeming millions (to borrow the word) of Hans in tibet. This itself is a testimony to the fact that we are sincere in resolving the issue and providing autonomy to the people.

10.The Kashmiri seperatists demand for complete independence for complete J&K which at the same time refusing the demand of the minorities of J&K (Hindus,buddhists and if i may add shias) for the same choice. Is is not the peak of hypocrisy.

11. It is a fact that when moderate among the seperatists were in faour of talks with India, they were assasinated at the slightest oppurtunity. while India would like to provide autonomy to the people who demand it (the four districts of the valley , which is my exclusive opinion here), is it too much to ask that voilence need to end first.

I know from experience that the pakistanis never never never answer these questions honestly, and I have seen them squirting and dodging the above questions whenever they are presented and will either rhetoric sets in or a meaningless one line statements of human freedom or liberty is pushed on us.

Posted by sensiblepatriot | Report as abusive
 

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