Pakistan: Now or Never?
Perspectives on Pakistan
India and Pakistan: practising peace
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Given the history of India and Pakistan, it is easy to be sceptical about the chances of their latest peace initiative. So let’s start with the positives.
Unlike past peace efforts which have veered between ill-prepared personal initiatives by political leaders and technical talks between bureaucrats which foundered for lack of direction from the top, the current phase combines the two. Prime Minister Manmohan Singh’s impromptu invitation to his Pakistani counterpart Yusuf Raza Gilani to watch last week’s India-Pakistan cricket semi-final coincided with the resumption of the first structured dialogue between the two countries since the November 2008 attacks on Mumbai. The foreign secretaries, or top diplomats, of India and Pakistan met in Thimphu, Bhutan in February. In talks last week, the home secretaries of the two countries made progress in coordinating their investigations into the Mumbai attacks; the trade secretaries are expected to meet soon, as are the defence secretaries.
Moreover, the Indian prime minister is personally committed to pursuing peace in the time he has left before a national election due by 2014. And while last year he was isolated even within his own party in his enthusiasm for peace - an idea that still lingers in some quarters - his initiative appears to enjoy the support of powerful Congress party president Sonia Gandhi. Outlook magazine, writing about his cricket diplomacy, noted that Singh was flanked by Gandhi and her son and prime-minister- in-waiting, Rahul Gandhi, when he welcomed Gilani on his first official visit to India.
The Pakistan Army, which dominates foreign and security policy in Pakistan, has also been slowly reassessing its approach to Islamist militants it once nurtured for use against India as they slip increasingly out of its control. How far that reassessment goes is open to debate; but few doubt that Gilani would have accepted Singh’s invitation to India to explore peace talks had this not been endorsed by the army.
All that said, sceptics have history on their side when they argue that the latest attempt at peace-making will fail. Militants, including those allied with al Qaeda, have an interest in disrupting peace talks, using an attack on India to stir up fears of war on Pakistan’s eastern border and take pressure off them on its western border with Afghanistan. If talks are not to be sabotaged – particularly at a time when militant groups in Pakistan are fragmenting and some of their cadres sucked into the orbit of al Qaeda – both countries would need to overcome distrust enough to share intelligence to prevent another big attack.
Singh’s peace initiative also has powerful opponents within the Indian establishment, who are well placed to whip up an already jingoistic media if they think he is going too far. Bharat Karnad, from the Centre for Policy Research in New Delhi, wrote that the Pakistan Army appeared to have decided to favour talks with India for now. ”The question is can India capitalise on what seems to be rethinking underway in the Pakistan Army? Alas, there is surprisingly less give here than is generally assumed,” he wrote. “This is because India’s Pakistan policy is hostage to the petty calculations of the political class in the country and powerful ministries within the Indian government with vested interest in portraying Pakistan as menace.”
And making matters even more complicated, the problems between India and Pakistan have been worsening over the years — in particular both are now bickering over their shared rivers as rising populations and poor resource management leave them facing both water scarcity and flooding. The risk now, as underlined by Cyril Almeida at Dawn, is that “the already fiendishly complex relationship may collapse under the weight of `new` problems if the `old` ones aren`t resolved first.”
So the question is not really whether the peace process will succeed or fail in some kind of absolute sense (you can stack up arguments on either side of that debate), but rather about the speed at which talks progress. They need to move fast enough to build constituencies for peace on both sides of the border, but not so fast that they trigger a backlash.
Some relatively minor (at least relative to the big intractables) confidence-building measures may be possible. One would be a relaxation of visa restrictions to allow more contact between people of the two countries. Another could be the unilateral opening up of the Indian market to Pakistani goods without insisting on reciprocity - the relative size of the two economies makes it somewhat easier for India to absorb trade from Pakistan than the other way around. And given that even the prospect of improved trade with India helped drive up prices on the Karachi stock exchange last week, this kind of unilateral concession by India would be hard for hawks in Pakistan to turn down.
There is also some talk of building contacts between the Indian and Pakistani militaries and their intelligence agencies to reduce distrust. That would be tricky from an institutional point of view – the Indian and Pakistani armies play very different roles in both countries – but possible on an informal basis if the political will is there. ”Two possible initiatives that come to my mind are an invitation to General Ashfaq Pervez Kayani, Pakistan’s Chief of the Army Staff (COAS), to pay an official visit to India and exchanges of visits by senior military officers of the two countries.” wrote B. Raman, formerly at India’s R&AW intelligence agency. “We already have such exchanges with the Chinese Army. We are none the worse for it. There is no reason why we should not have such exchanges with the Pakistan Army.”
A third possibility, promoted by some analysts, is that India and Pakistan focus on narrowing their differences over Afghanistan with the aim of easing distrust in order to build momentum for a broader peace process. There are already some indications that the rivalry between the two in Afghanistan is easing. India has been somewhat circumspect about expanding its role in Afghanistan over the last couple of years; Pakistani officials talk increasingly of seeking a neutral and stable Afghanistan rather than a friendly and stable Afghanistan. That said, to rely on an easing of tensions over Afghanistan to underpin a broader peace process would leave them both hostage to fortune in a war whose outcome is highly unpredictable.
Ultimately — and this is where it will get very tricky if the peace process is to become irreversible – the two countries would need to tackle the big issues, including the future of Jammu and Kashmir.
Indian Prime Minister Singh and former Pakistan President Pervez Musharraf made considerable progress in resolving the dispute over Jammu and Kashmir, the former princely state which has been divided between the two countries since independence in 1947. Under a formula worked out by their envoys in secret back-channel talks by 2006/2007, the two countries agreed that there would be no redrawing of borders, but that borders would become irrelevant. The agreement foundered in part because Musharraf became embroiled in political problems at home which eventually forced him to step down.
Yet many details of that accord had yet to be worked out and even Musharraf admits that it would have taken a great deal of political courage from leaders on both sides of the border to translate that agreement in principle into reality.
One dispute whose resolution is frequently cited as a possible stepping stone to a broader peace deal is that over Siachen, the world’s highest battlefield, which lies in the mountainous, uninhabited edges of Jammu and Kashmir. The armies of India and Pakistan have fought each other in the mountains above the Siachen glacier since 1984, and despite a ceasefire agreed in 2003, their troops remain there, often posted at altitudes above 18,000 feet.
The technical details of a deal on Siachen were agreed years ago and many in both countries acknowledge it was a war which should never have been fought. If Singh were to accept Gilani’s invitation to visit Pakistan, an agreement on Siachen could in theory given him something of substance to announce there.
Siachen, however, does not exist in isolation. Even since India and Pakistan fought a limited war in 1999 in the mountains above Kargil — which lies on the road linking the Kashmir Valley to Ladakh and the access route to Siachen – the battle over the world’s highest battlefield has become inextricably linked to the broader dispute over Jammu and Kashmir. However geographically remote the battle over Siachen may be, it cannot be resolved in isolation.
All in all, if this peace initiative is to succeed India and Pakistan will have to make progress on many different issues simultaneously though a combination of detailed structured negotiations between bureaucrats, informal contacts between their institutions, and high-level political support. But at the very least, we can say that process has started.
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Pakistan has come a long way from Mumbai 26/11 to Mohali 30/11, in 2008 10 terrorists created mayhem in Mumbai. In Mohali 11 Pakistani cricketers sweated out and played their best cricket and represented Pakistan as sportsmen. India bestowed its hospitality and ensured the security of Pakistani players, and the Prime minister was invited to watch the game. As, in cricket this is a new turning point, both countries need to play a long inning and stay on the crease, take the singles, rotate the strike.
Structured approach is the way to go, whatever the bottlenecks and roadblocks are, one by one smaller issues like Siachin, effort should me made to get them out of the way. Only then disputes like Kashmir can be dealt with.
Cricket has once again come to the forefront, on 30th March Pakistan literally came to a standstill. the whole nation was behind the green team and anticipated victory. And it was not until the last 4 balls of the final over that Indian breathe a sigh of relief. The contest was hard fought, this must have improved Pakistan’s image. India must now come out with all its sincerity and resolve all outstanding disputes with Pakistan so that both nations can put behind decades of bad relations and normalize things. So next time there is another match in India, thousands of Pakistani fans can make the trip across the border and vice versa. If cricket can usher a new era of peace, so be it. Good for everyone.
And Myra, just to add one more to the list, both PCB and BCCI should have good relations and try to get going an annual Indo-Pak cricket series which should not affect by politics. A series of one day, tests, T-20. Lastly, congrats to the world champs! It could not have come at a better time and place, on home soil.
Surely, this is a new begining, lets see how far the two countries go. Good thing is this time democracy is in place in Pakistan and it seems Indo-Pak relations are all set for a long innings. Lets hope there is no run out this time.
“Militants, including those allied with al Qaeda, have an interest in disrupting peace talks”
This statement is a false claim, the fallacy is used by Pakistan Army as a propaganda tool. This has been discussed here a million times here.
Lashkar-e-Taiba is virtually the jihadi terrorist wing of Pakistan army and is NOT involved in terrorism inside Pakistan. Their only mission is terrorism inside India.
“Disrupting peace talks” is also a myth, the truthful version would PA used terrorism as a negotiating tool, believing talks backed up with terrorism will lead to change of heart.
Between 2003 and 2008 “peace talks” were going on, while simultaneously Pakistani terrorism insdie India was going on.
There is a lot of mutual misunderstanding and wrong perception between the people of the two countries. That needs to be resolved first. One can see the expression of it in blogs like these. Pakistanis have their own list of assumed woes with India and Indians have their own counter claims, with neither side coming to any agreement.
I do encourage people to people level understanding first. Stubbornness must go. People should become open minded and see things for themselves. Most are misled by biased media information and draw their own conclusions.
The first step I would recommend is to take the talented Pakistani players in IPL teams. They deserve their spots in those teams. Politics must be taken out of cricket for starters. All players on both sides have mutual respect and admiration for each other. A champions trophy tournament must be staged where national cricket champions from each country should play each other – Ranji trophy champions versus QEA trophy winners in Pakistan. I would include champion teams from Sri Lanka, Afghanistan and Bangladesh as well.
The next time teams refuse to tour Pakistan because of security concerns, I’d like India to extend its grounds for Pakistan to use as home grounds instead of Dubai and England. And Pakistanis must be given visas to come and cheer their home team. I would avoid places like Mumbai and Calcutta. But Delhi, Chennai and Bangalore have sportive people. We won the world cup not just for India, it is for all people of the sub-continent to celebrate.
I’d invite Pakistani fast bowlers like Akram, Sarfraz Nawaz etc to coach Indian probables. May be a sub-continental state championship tournament will do a lot of good. The only thing that needs to be different here is that players get mixed up based on talent needs, much like the IPL. Thus some Pak players might find themselves playing for Calcutta and some Indians players might play for Lahore.
Doors must be opened for people to visit shrines on both sides. Indian and Pakistani tourist departments must welcome people from both sides and give them special treatment and hospitality. The great poets and musicians from Pakistan should be invited to perform in India. I’d like these doors to open first.
And like Myra has suggested, India can open up trade for Pakistani goods. India can surely help build power plants, roads, bridges, set up engineering/medical colleges on the scale of IITs. I’d recommend giving admission to talented Pakistani students in our prestigious colleges. Indian business should be encouraged to build factories and IT hubs in Pakistan. I would extend this to Bangladesh as well. We cannot let our neighbors rot while we upgrade our standards.
A lot can be done if the hearts are willing. These kind of warming steps need to be taken first without any pre-conditions on both sides. At some point, a better understanding will develop. And with that understanding and mutual dependence, every lingering issue, Kashmir included, can be resolved amicably. We have waited for 6 decades. We can surely wait a little longer so that everyone’s pride is not hurt while resolving the issues.
” recommend giving admission to talented Pakistani students in our prestigious colleges. ”
KPSingh,
Bad idea. Some of them will disappear in India and will become future “assets” for bomb blasts/ terror. I might have expected that from GP, not from you. It is not going to happen even if you disagree with me. “visa liberalization” is just lip service, not realistic.
Also the things you have listed have already been done and tried. Proposing to hold discussions, reducing rhetoric by leaders are all fine. Beyond that rest of it is pipedream.
I would believe you if you said you have convinced any paks here on any issues that matter to India. Jihadi terrorist infrastructure, intent remain the same. Severe internal diarrhea has forced some “tactical” temporary hold up. This should not be misconstrued to be long term change of heart.
Netizen said:
> Bad idea. [...] I might have expected that from GP, not from you.
Hey!
Regards,
Ganesh Prasad
@KP
“The first step I would recommend is to take the talented Pakistani players in IPL teams. They deserve their spots in those teams. Politics must be taken out of cricket for starters”
***The reason why Pakistani cricketers were not in IPL was related to “business” not “politics”
KP
“I’d recommend giving admission to talented Pakistani students in our prestigious colleges”
***You are getting emotional. It is harmless on blogs.
If you want to do something along these lines, make the same offer to Kashmiris from Azad Kashmir.
while I thoght about the relaions, I can help innovating this simple urdu poem.
fiza sahee hai guftagoo karne ke liye,
choot na jaaye waqt khud ko sambhalne ke liye,
kadam nahi tho sahi nazar to badha ne ke liye,
zahir kare andhere ko, aane wale pushton ke liye.
Indian diplomacy has prevailed! If Pakistani leaders believe that there is some soft spot among Indian leaders or the Indian people for the kashmiri people, then they should have their head examined. I shall recommend them a top brain surgeon of the world.
Rex Minor
KPSingh:’recommend giving admission to talented Pakistani students in our prestigious colleges.’
-Good idea, but as someone suggested above before that level can be reached there needs to be an atmosphere of trust. Look US and Russia has the cold war rivalry behind them still they have issues between them and they do cooperate. And your list of suggestions is good. The possibilities of cooperation between India and Pakistan are endless. It includes, education, health, sports etc. India surely has an outsourcing I.T industry established, Pakistan may have a talented and capable workforce that can be trained and I.T hubs established in Islamabad, Karachi, Lahore etc, similar to Bangalore, Hyderabad, etc
Umair, the young software developers in Pak are very good. Like the reverse swing, and doosra, they specialize in innovation and creativity. Skills suitable for gaming, social media & visual analytics. I believe Pakistan could have the much sought after competitive advantage in IT i.e. cost & differentiation. All that is needed is a sustained period of uninterrupted stability. Economic domination is also a bogey by hawks and oligopolists. If I recall correctly, trade is almost never a bad thing.
KP, wonderful ideas on cricket. India could go far by approaching Pakistan from a position of strength instead of power.. if that makes any sense whatsoever.
Rex,
Your skepticism has merit. India has employed stall tactics in the past. This is indicative of any party satisfied with the status quo. I think this also has something to do with their pesky democratic process. Their leaders/parties will never be reelected if they make ‘concessions’ to Pakistani ‘blackmail’. There is goodwill towards Manmohan Singh. Pakistanis seem to like him. Some people are difficult to despise. I don’t know of any Indian that HATES Inzamam-ul-Haq lol.
You are realistic when you say no resolution of core issues will come of it. However, if the nuclear threat level can be brought down even a notch, why resist the initiatives? It is easy to flex our muscles on the internet but in the real world millions of lives hang in the balance.
Umairpk: “Pakistan may have a talented and capable workforce that can be trained and I.T hubs established in Islamabad, Karachi, Lahore etc, similar to Bangalore, Hyderabad, etc”
There is absolutely no doubt about the intelligence and talent that is available in Pakistan. It just needs to be tapped. Collaborative efforts are needed on many fields – agricultural research, bio-medical technology, alternate energy etc. I think co-operation has to start on non-political front first – arts, sports, science, industry, technology etc. Politics will follow the trend. If you look at India, it was treated like a global beggar during the cold war days. No one cared if India existed or not. But India worked steadily on the areas I have mentioned and geo-politics came around on its own. It is important for us here to develop a mutual understanding first. I am glad Ganesh has triggered that effort here. If we can at least respect and understand each other, then we can propagate it to others. There will always be vested groups ready to derail all efforts on both sides. But if the efforts are along non-political fronts, mutual dependency will force politics to align. Pakistanis have a lot to give to the world. They are being left out and their potential unnecessarily wasted and turned in the wrong direction.
Rex,
Tell me why does a German study Pashto?
Professor, Translator, Linguist or State Intelligence ??
Shoab
Pakistan has choices. She can have strong relations with countries to the north, countries to the west and India to the east. Only cooperative relations are productive.
There are only two entities who stand in the way expansion of economic relations. Firstly it is NATO occupation of Afghanistan and the “War on terror” imposed on Af-Pak and then there is India not resolving Kashmir and also trying to piggy-back on WOT to score points against Pakistan. There is nexus between the two.
I don’t see any change in India’s position and in fact it has signed on to the policy of dividing Afghanistan and restart a civil war. Pakistan position is that all domestic parties come together and share power. This issue is important because without peace in Afghanistan, the instability will continue and business investment can not take place in Pakistan. Pakistan has policy options much greater than what India has.
I say that building the trust is fine but political policies change when ground reality shift.
Matrixx: “This issue is important because without peace in Afghanistan, the instability will continue and business investment can not take place in Pakistan.”
You are assuming that Afghans have no say in this. Nowhere do I see a settlement suggested by you that involves Afghans. And it is highly likely that they do not trust Pakistan at all. If Afghans do not trust Pakistan, a stable Afghanistan is out of question. No one trusts the Pakistani military and its non-state actor departments. Not even the Americans. Everyone is suspicious of your military and its ulterior intentions. Unless your military comes clear with what its objectives are, nothing can be certain. Others cannot be blamed on making their own moves and plans. These needs to be some kind of a compromise your military has to accept. Just having the nukes does not guarantee everything. Credibility is very important. Pak military has become famous for duplicity and double dealing in the outside world. So long as others are not sure about how sincere your military is, they will do what they do. Blaming them will not help. We are talking about people to people level understanding here. Unless that happens, no progress will happen.
@Shoabo
I do not favour inquisitiveness. I think in German language, write in understandable English and am familiar with several languages, including Persian, Pashto, French and Latin to mention some.
People are the stregnth of a Nation! No other source provides this stregnth to a country. Pakistan needs reforms in military, a nationalised army, education starting in kindergarten madrassas to educate the children about the value of Islam and human rights, foreign studies in non anglo saxon institutions. More new science Institutions to develope future energy sources, improved infra structure and support for small, medium and large industrial entrepreneurs. This is a small list but demands great efforts to establish. Your army has been a great obstacle in progress and know only how to run a police state and slowly and gradualy reduce the area of the country. During the past several years, they have accomodatd unwanted elements into beautiful cities and cantonments, while at the same time have caused the IDP’s population. Remove the foreign embassys and CIA operators offices and their nets from Islamabad, or at least rename the city ‘Islamabad#’. Move the capital to Karachi or Gwadar or …..,
What you see of the Indian PM, is not real, a soulless Zombie, who witnessed the massacre of his ethnic community at the hands of Congress leaders not long ago. He along with his group left this world long time ago and are today wandering about in several parts of the world. The same loyal group which opted to join India after partition and left their ancestor homes in today’s Pakistan. In view Dr Manmohan Singh’s ability in economics, the congress magicians kept him in Indai along with several ohers.
India has the remaining brave warriors in the kashmir contingent, whose atrocities against kashmiri muslims are now known to most in the world.
Pakistan does need to pretend, lie or cheat the country which is now allied with Israel. The Indian born former military ruler has lied, and used all the shabby tricks. Pakistan does not need to have a diplomatic relations with a country, whic h did not accept the 1947 flawed terrotorial arrangements, which both the congress and the muslim league party signed to. Pakistan was subsequently decimated, as soon as the opportunity as provided and is likely to strike again whenever the opportunity arises.
Rex Minor
PS Sorry for mispels etc. By the way I do like your non serious and pleasant dialogues with others you find sincere. You may even succeed to convince the hard core of the orange brigade.
PS Paistan DOES NOT need to cheat……
Rex Minor
First off, India needs to focus on it’s own problems rather than extending help to others like KP is suggesting. Charity begins at home. There are enough people in India who could use those college seats/scholarships. Furthermore, the definition of peace between these two countries should be defined as not fighting a traditional war/no nukes flying overhead. Let’s just keep working on this. The Kashmir issue will never be fully resolved, all India can hope to do is to provide economic opportunities for the youth and hopefully reduce the violence. Personally, I believe India has a big enough “to-do list” of its own that it cannot engange in a new foreign policy direction. Learn from China, grow for 30 years and then start to negotiate.
Shoaibo said:
> India could go far by approaching Pakistan from a position of strength instead of power.. if that makes any sense whatsoever.
It makes perfect sense to me. I think that is an excellent point that the mandarins in South Block (India’s foreign ministry) should take note of. India should approach Pakistan in a relaxed and secure way, feeling free to be flexible in its approach and make innovative offers. Rigidity of a position shows not strength but insecurity, which does not behoove a strong country.
I too wish India would not adopt a position of power. I have been saying for a while that the greatest danger to India comes from arrogance and hubris. That is one of the reasons why I would like Pakistan to make peace with India within the next 3-5 years while there is still rough parity between the two countries. With the gap widening between the two, India may refuse to talk to Pakistan in a few years, or force a settlement on terms considered humiliating by the Pakistanis. Such a peace cannot last.
The treaty of Versailles imposed such humiliating conditions on a defeated Germany after the First World War that it led directly to Hitler and World War II. For a truly workable peace, it has to maintain the dignity and pride of all the countries involved and they must all buy into it with enthusiasm.
I think you’ve hit the nail on the head, Shoaibo.
Regards,
Ganesh Prasad
rainydays said:
> First off, India needs to focus on it’s own problems rather than extending help to others like KP is suggesting. Charity begins at home. There are enough people in India who could use those college seats/scholarships.
I’ve heard a similar argument when I was growing up, that India should not be investing in space technology (Aryabhatta, etc.) when there were so many mouths to feed. But such investments have helped the Indian economy in no small way, which reduces the number of poor people.
I think if peace initiatives can boost the economy, then the choice you’re talking about is actually a false dichotomy. People in India will also benefit from it.
> Learn from China, grow for 30 years and then start to negotiate.
It’s not an either-or situation. Multiple approaches can be tried at the same time. I too have noted that India is making more friends as its economy grows. Such is the way of the world. But we shouldn’t rely on that process alone.
Regards,
Ganesh Prasad
@rainydays
I agree with you to some extent.
India is the least of the problems facing Pakistan.
And Pakistan is the least of the problems facing India.
There are 6 Indians for one Pakistani in this world, so
it may give an impression based on the number of Indians
posting in blogs Pakistan is an importnt issue for India.
India’s problems are:
1. Corruption
2. Environmental degradation
3. Economic growth not reaching the downtrodden to alleviate grinding poverty
Pakistan’s problems are:
1.Worsening Islamic Extremism – pursuit of “pure” “real” Islam
2. Lack of growth of even rudimentary instititions of nationhood/ democracy
3. No societal, educational, economic infrastructure to compete globally in the knowledge economy.
None of the Pakistan’s problems can be alleviated by acquiring another land mass, or another ethnic group. What have they achieved with the land mass and population they got in 1947?
I share your skepticism about scholarships. Frankly it looks outlandish. Why would we give opportunities to develop more ISI assets in India? Not realistic.
No matter how much goodwill is generated on a (civilian)govt to govt or people to people level, it will all be useless unless the Pakistani army is willing & ready to roll back it’s anti-India jihadi & “non-state actor” machinery. In 2008, there was plenty of goodwill between India & Pakistan. The dialogue was on, Pakistani athletes, musicians, actors etc. were being welcomed in India and then a single terrorist attack by the PA/ISI’s “non-state actor” unit disrupted everything & brought it all to a stand still. If the PA is not ready to mend it’s ways vis-a-vis India, I suspect we’ll be back to square one, yet again, very quickly.
India Pakistan difference, besides mutual complaints, is that India is far more democratic and economically growing, infrastructure in the form of science and technology set up long ago is churning out students which can be used as knowledge resource whether at home or abroad. They bring name to the country.
India has democracy, but NOT enough if we quit comparing with Pakistan for a moment. Riots and scandals have brought shame to India. It is democratic enough that no one thinks of going to military rule (emergency by I.Gandhi) has made sure no one prefers that.
Economic growth of India is recent. What if circumstances reduce growth to 3%.
Foreign companies are investing in India. Sports industry (IPL) is taking off. What if terrorist activities disrupt all that.
India and Pakistan will be similar with OVERLAPPING basic problems to be solved. Neither nation is solving them.
Both India and Pakistan have common problems, poverty, rising fundamentalism (inherent/growing in Pakistan or reactionary so to say in India) are similar. Billion in India, expansion of infrastructure has had a telling effect on environment (trees are cut callously with wood used irresponsibly for construction and no ban on this yet). No attention is paid to the reports that gas guzzlers in USA or any environment polluters will have most effect on Himalayan terrain and impact both India/Pakistan. Pakistan saw floods and Mumbai saw them too because of the environment.Pakistan got seriously hit. Rising # of earthquakes/Tsunamis can bring disaster anytime. It is time to learn lesson from Japan;s nuclear nightmare. Is anyone thinking in either countries?
The feeling of belonging to “nation” and doing something for it in real terms is missing in India and Pakistan. India has system in place, made possible by certain leaders, which is taking India forward.
I am worried about “arrogance and immaturity” in certain section of Indians. WE are immature as nation not to use our potential fully.
Using “Position of Strength” by democratic Indian politicians is not seen possible. Who will bell the cat?
PM MMSingh is blamed for his soft policy because he is born in Pakistan, which is ridiculous in my view. I believe, he will behave the same had he been born in Amritsar.
Derogatory “Delhi-born” tag is attached to Musharraf by Pakistanis when they do not like his policies.
Geography of India and Pakistan is partly responsible for the 63 yrs. I wonder if we swap Indian populace/leaders with Pakistan’s (Indians in Pakistan and Pakistanis in India), what would India have done and what would Pakistanis had done with swapped territories.
perhaps i vented a bit
KPSingh:
You say “You are assuming that Afghans have no say in this.”
I say no such thing, here this is from my previous post
“Pakistan position is that all domestic parties come together and share power.”
Now you can see that some reading disability is in play.
India’s position is that the war should continue but it is the US footing the bill and it would decide when to end this war. Credibility has no play in it.
A few scholarships would be a drop in India’s education ocean, but the real issue would be that Pakistani students in India would present a soft target for miscreants. We remember the diplomatic tension between India and Australia when Indian students were attacked in Melbourne in 2009-2010, even though the Australian government was not at all involved. Can you imagine the furore if Pakistani students are attacked in India? This peace initiative may end up bringing about just the opposite. So probably this is not the time to attempt something like that. God knows there are enough hardliners on both sides who would like to derail any peace initiative. It reminds me of the Star Trek movie “The Undiscovered Country” where hardliners from all sides plot to sabotage the peace process between the Federation and the Klingon empire.
Regards,
Ganesh Prasad
“India’s position is that the war should continue ”
What a gem !
PhD in Pakistan studies? Cunning Hindu baniyas, Chankya, Manusmirthi, Dalit, Gandhi, godse,akand Bharat, etc, etc, etc
Here we are talking about KPSingh Scholarship Scheme!
Rex,
I have a festering open wound, would you happen to have some salt ?
– A “Paistani”
Let me clear up my views a bit. My suggestion is analagous to saying that both countries need a timeout from each other. Now this cannot be done in reality, however, both countries, or one of them, can choose to pursue a short term policy which puts extra peace efforts on a lower priority. Let’s be content with no war taking place.
India’s political capital is finite (both at home and abroad). It should be used to push reforms, and policies which help pull people out of poverty, and bring India further into the global economy. I think the same finite capital idea is applied to Pak but for completely different priorities. I see India’s capabilities in finite terms (every country for that matter). Therefore, I believe a priority based policy needs to be in place and trying multiple/repeated approaches has its drawbacks. Please don’t confuse this with the idea of closing all doors and sitting in ignorance. I am saying that it is important to meet a certain threshold of relations (the current level is okay).
In Singh’s defense, he is imagining the possibilities not prescribing a sequence of steps for peace. If India can become just another country to Pakistanis… the cost, quality and portrayal of indian campuses in bollywood would draw many Pakistani students.
Once again a lot of crap is being put out unnecessarily to impress one’s ego.Indian diplomatic act, competition in Sport and Indo Pak future relations, all to some good, but Inflating India as a great power, a great country is just too much.
Yesterday, I saw a documentry film about an Indian town on the wagah border with Pakistan. Very simple and pleasant school age children were shown playing the roles of Indian and Pakistani guards. A school boy was shown in a dialogue with the reporter/moderator talking about him going to the border after the school and selling DVD’s to pay for the school fees. He was very spirited and claimed that he makes a large sum from the sale of a single DVD at 100 Rupees. The reporter thought he was telling fibs and questioned him on the large sum. The boy admitted instantly that he was telling a lie; he earned only one Rupee for every DVD sale. The reorter did not let go and again asked him why he was telling a lie. The boy replied that he feels good by exagerating the amount he earns. I guess for him his ego was more important than the plain truth!!
Indian schools need to teach the boys that the children must not lie under any circumstances!!
. A majority of the people in India are non believers, whereas, morality requires the belief in the existance of God, freedom and immortality, because without their existance there can be no morality(Immanuel Kant-1724-1804).
. Indians are cursed with the caste system which restricts many’s potential in higher studies. How can one devalue a certain section of people and then claim that the system would benefit the devalued and the underprivilaged?
. There are millions of slaves made up of men, women and children who work without salary in brick factories and other enterprises, live in shanty villages like a concentration camps. The Indian Minister of Labour admitted to the CNN reporter but refused to accept the classification ‘slave’ for this labour force. He calls them BONDED labour and said that the Provincial Govts are responsible to eliminate this pratice.
. Indian economy cannot feed its population and the flow of the work force outside their country is ever on the increase.
With this bckground, I should be more modest in my perception of mother India. Indians need not repeat what they learnt in the childhood, namely to feel good when lies are put out. I have noted one Indian muslim who has come forward with some suppressed critique on the problems India is facing. Humility is a virtue, not a disgrace, love for the next one is a good moral and compassion for neighbours is a good investment. Western democracies and their constitutions reflect the Ibrahimic relgion values, and are not based on atheism!!
Europe, which benefitted from the Arab and other eastern civilisations has been the centre of human civilisation and industrial centre for several centuries now.
Those who want to learn need to visit European unversities, preferably non anglo saxon one to learn about the progress of humanity in science and culture, medicine and philosophy, religion and its place in the society, freedom and respect and care for the next one etc etc.
The alternative is to muddle through, believing in economic growth and wall street casinos, until the next blip comes.
Rex Minor
Rex – Please, keep your moral teachings to yourself. Good habit. What is your post about? A critique of India? A praise for European history? Are you talking about religion? Economic growth? Recession? Education? Kids lying? Or all of the above? All you are doing is stating a personal opinion and backing it up with assumptions that you are trying to pass off as some kind of analysis of facts/trends.
There are not enough words to describe the Glory of India.
Emerging India is going to be a global powerhouse.
It has an egalitarian constitution, all Indians should try to uphold the spirit of The Holy Document.
Indians should explain the economic prospects , glory of New India at this blog
http://www.thaindian.com/newsportal/worl d-news/german-chancellor-merkel-to-visit -india-next-year_100472722.html
German Chancellor Merkel to visit India next year
December 11, 2010 1:12:13 PM CST by IANS
Berlin, Dec 11 (IANS) German Chancellor Angela Merkel Saturday said she would visit India next year after accepting an invitation from Prime Minister Manmohan Singh, who was on a short visit to Berlin.”I will visit India next year,” Merkel told reporters in a joint press conference with Manmohan Singh.
She said the prime minister had invited her and she would be in Delhi in 2011 to mark 60 years of India-Germany diplomatic ties.
Manmohan Singh said that Germany will organize a Year of Germany in India beginning September 2011, and India will organize the Days of India in Germany during 2012-13.
“I have invited Chancellor Merkel to visit India next year, and I look forward to hosting her in Delhi,” he said.
“Indian schools need to teach the boys that the children must not lie under any circumstances!!”
***Lying or not lying cannot be taught. Also this reminds me of Pakistan cricket team captain Afridi’s statement who said Pakistani saaf Dil etc and Indian’s is not. A Westerner/German who has not lived in Pak/India/B’desh can be excused for not understanding this.
Those who hate India for its caste system should know that the system is not going to go away in next 1000 years. It will become irrelevant–FOR SURE, which the UNWILLING soul will not be able to see. Where does this leave us?
“. A majority of the people in India are non believers, whereas, morality requires the belief in the existance of God, freedom and immortality, because without their existance there can be no morality(Immanuel Kant-1724-1804).”
***
Kant got it wrong. Religion without morality is a joke. Morality does not require religion or GOD. I need not quote anyone for this. I have seen examples of people of faith being liars and atheists practicing morality/spirituality. Hope I am not tagged “unIslamic” for this.
So, what can be done to billion “non-believer” Indians so that they become believers? What is the way out having known this. Convert them?
I mean I do not see billion “non-believer” Indians to become “believers”. Does that mean they will continue to be immoral?
Nice post but where is “love for the next one”? How does this sound? Is it “humility”? How does that fit with “good moral and compassion for neighbours is a good investment? I know it is bit inconvenient to answer all this and have pieces in right place.
Rex can correct me if I am wrong but he is not referring to Indians as ‘non-believers’ in the Islamic or Christian definition. He might be talking about the increase of secularism and atheism in the non-RSS/BJP sections of Indian society.
To Indians; Is there some truth to this? Is India becoming less religious? Thanks.
I am not sure about the prerequisite of religion to have a monopoly on morality. There is no shortage of believers committing acts of evil (Christians in Jerusalem, Spanish Inquisition, ‘New’ world, ‘Muslims’ in new york, beslan, lahore, dhaka, mumbai, ‘Hindus’ in Sri Lanka, Gujrat, Delhi).
An atheist can have a moral code not necessarily sanctioned by any particular religion.
Et tu Rehmat? You took the bait from the Pashtun living in Germany and abusing the freedom and rights given there to him.
I can understand the new comers here who do not know how to deal with this guy. Well let them figure it out for themselves.
http://tinyurl.com/3mr8zf5
Jihadi terrorist activity from Germany remains a global security concern. German authorities are trying to use laws against Nazis against Jihadis, doubt this would suffice.
Shoaibo said:
> To Indians; Is there some truth to this? Is India becoming less religious? Thanks.
Only a scientific survey will be able to answer that correctly. Our perceptions would be purely anecdotal. But let me give you my (obviously limited) view. I live outside India but do visit often (and for religion-tinged events like marriages and funerals).
I will redefine ‘religion’ as ‘ritualistic’ for now, and say that I have seen examples of both trends – of people becoming more as well as less ritualistic in their religious expression. And I will restrict this comment to what I have seen of Hindus since I’m not aware of the nuances of trends in other religions.
On the one hand, I have seen young people, even educated ones performing more rituals on different occasions, and without even understanding them. I would explain this in identity terms. They need to show that they are religious or that they are part of the great Hindu religion. It is not a spiritual urge on their part. The rise of the right-wing parties may have something to do with it. Some of my own cousins take pride in belonging to this movement. I think this is an example of identity politics at work, definitely not increased spiritual aspiration.
On the other hand, I have seen examples of society becoming a bit more relaxed and less stifling in religious matters. Earlier, not performing funeral rites for one’s parents was considered a mortal sin. Today, there are people who don’t, and they don’t face ostracism or severe pressure from others. Girls are allowed to go to funeral sites (burning ghats) and daughters are allowed to light funeral pyres (only sons or male relatives used to be allowed to do so). Among the middle classes, there is a greater assertiveness among women and a corresponding yielding of orthodoxy. People who refuse to toe the line and declare themselves atheists and agnostics are tolerated more easily. Increasing economic independence allows individuals to assert their freedom not to practice religion according to orthodox rules. Modern society and its new dependencies are more powerful than the corresponding feudal ones. You can now defy the clergy but not your company’s management
. It helps that there is no central religious authority for Hindus like the Pope for Catholics. Defiance often goes unchallenged.
My personal view (may be wishful thinking) is that the political Hindutva movement will ebb naturally when it has run its course. Increasing economic freedom and empowerment of women will further weaken religious orthodoxy. India will eventually become more like a modern Western society, where most people do not actively practise religion.
Regards,
Ganesh Prasad
I said:
> Increasing economic independence allows individuals to assert their freedom not to practice religion according to orthodox rules.
Typo, should be “not to practise religion”
Regards,
Ganesh Prasad
I think you will find this interesting:
http://www.thehindu.com/opinion/article1 603051.ece
Matrixx: “I think you will find this interesting:”
This article has already been published in the Guardian and has been torn to pieces by the pack of wolves in that forum:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/ 2011/apr/05/rising-india-surrender-natio nal-dignity
Matrixx and Netizen are made for each other.
No negative point about the other country escapes their watchful gaze…
Regards,
Ganesh Prasad
Fascinating contrasts. Those are the anecdotes I have heard. As you all know, the exact opposite is happening in Pakistan. Complicating matters is a decentralized religious authority. Management is very much top-heavy. I do wish we Muslims benchmark Al-Andalus instead of Kandahar as the model Islamic society.
There are indeed some synergies that can be exploited if Matrix and Netizen work together.
Example:
“I was looking for a really miserable article on X but found one on Y instead. I have no use for it but I thought you might like it for your collection. Regards”
Allah hur jori dekh kay banata hai…
Sorry, i could not resist. That’s the last one, I promise.
KPS
Interesting none the less.
Shoaib
Don’t be shy and show me how I compare to Netizen? Poor Neti gets bad name for nothing. I never challenged him.
Insinuations are like gossip, reserved for ladies. Seems like we are getting into some fun stuff.
@KP
“You took the bait from the Pashtun living in Germany and abusing the freedom and rights given there to him.”
***
that was a calculated limited refresher for him.
Matrix, I won’t be shy at all. These articles are about pakistan. People are interested in what Pakistanis such as yourself have to say. Your are a realist, I am a dreamer. We can have good discussions about Pakistan instead of India. Don’t fall prey to copy/paste provocations.