Comments on: India and Pakistan: practising peace http://blogs.reuters.com/pakistan/2011/04/03/india-and-pakistan-practising-peace/ Perspectives on Pakistan Thu, 01 Oct 2015 19:31:05 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=4.2.5 By: sensiblepatriot http://blogs.reuters.com/pakistan/2011/04/03/india-and-pakistan-practising-peace/comment-page-4/#comment-37464 Wed, 13 Apr 2011 18:01:43 +0000 http://blogs.reuters.com/pakistan/?p=7125#comment-37464 Unfortunately for Common people like Matrix who are fed hatred of India by their establishmet in pakistan, the Idea that India may perhaps be breaking with the past and moving away (I would rather say entire south Asia) is an anathema to their mind.

I always believed people who are exposed to liberal media will not be as bigoted as people who are fed only narrow and twisted propoganda of civilizational greatness.

But I am very surprised with these bigots because even with the English media and other liberal sources that are at their disposal. I am still unable to understand how people can be confined to their narrow narratives of pakistan.

Although it is possible to expect a chinese (or a mullah), though highly educated he might be, to have constricted ideas of his country bcoz of the media clampdown, one cannot belive that even in pakistan where free media reigns and a decent liberal news papers with diehard secularists exist, people like Zaid Hamid still roam around without being questioned in their News channels.
It is this popularity that even praveen Togadia (RSS,VHP) should have been jealous about. He must be longing to meet Zaid hamid to know how he twisted even the English speaking-western branding tugging educated Pakistanis into bending and twisting his ideas to match his dogmatism .

I am not here to pass judgements but I can only hope people like matrix keep reading economic (or better UNDP) indicators across south Asia while not being selective and he will find that,not only Srilanka,Bangladesh (of course India too) but also Nepal has overtaken pakistan in GDP Growth Rate.
It is now ascertained that Bangladesh will reach UNDP goals faster and accoring to Dawn author’s own admission Pakistan is at the cross roads of Education emergency.

Indian Strategists are hoping that bilateral trade with china and close American partership will allow India to close the clout that the chinese right now enjoy. When the trade between china and india crosses the threshold value when chinese belligerence against India looks more and more irrelevant, then Chinese wouldn’t lift a finger before they dump pakistan. As the Chinese and Indians wait for the slow and long decline of the American influence, they will simply build up ties with Iran and Chinese in particular may not have to depend on the land link that they are right now guarding zealously.

When others are playing the Great game cautiously and diligently experts are bedevilled as to why Pakistan is playing the adverserial role against India without first building itself. But few know that it is this machismo by the Army which is needed to usurp people’s aspirations and cling on to power.

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By: KPSingh01 http://blogs.reuters.com/pakistan/2011/04/03/india-and-pakistan-practising-peace/comment-page-3/#comment-37461 Wed, 13 Apr 2011 13:55:17 +0000 http://blogs.reuters.com/pakistan/?p=7125#comment-37461 Matrixx: “According to you, it is all Pakistan’s fault and all evil exists in Pakistan. Does it not mean that Indians should stay away from Pakistan?”

I gave some examples at least. Can you counter my points with some valid information? Show me with valid references where India appears belligerent to Pakistan. You need to understand that it is the perception from your end and not a fact. India knows its limitations and will not go beyond that.

As far staying away from Pakistan, yes, we would like to do that if that would do good. Unfortunately some of your countrymen, including the generals will go jobless if they do not play the India card. So long as they are there, we have to do what we do.

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By: KPSingh01 http://blogs.reuters.com/pakistan/2011/04/03/india-and-pakistan-practising-peace/comment-page-3/#comment-37460 Wed, 13 Apr 2011 13:51:22 +0000 http://blogs.reuters.com/pakistan/?p=7125#comment-37460 netizen: “In 5 years if Indian economy is 20 times the size of Pakistan’s, still they should be treated as equals”

I have always wondered about this. Do they lack perception? Is it the reason for them to be striving to achieve parity on every front with India? Even most countries call us “rivals.” They would not call India and Bangladesh as rivals, when the latter has more population than Pakistan. India and Pakistan are called as South Asian rivals. It is this attitude of Pakistanis to see themselves above or at par with India that has been the core problem. They would not equate themselves with China or Russia. Somehow India seems to appear inferior in their eyes. And that is one reason why they have attacked India four times directly and many times indirectly. Some of their historians believe that Pakistan was the entire sub-continent where they ruled for more than 800 years until the British cut them into a small nation while giving the majority of their land to their past subjects, the Hindus. Seeing themselves as rulers, they are still struggling to come to terms with accepting the reality. Anyway, this is something that will die out with time. We can focus on talking to sensible people across the border. There seem to be some.

BTW: I do not have anything passionate against IG. I treat people on their merit. Most of her family members made it big without any efforts and acted like royal people. She did to India what ZA Bhutto did to Pakistan. While India survived, Pakistan has been devastated.

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By: netizen http://blogs.reuters.com/pakistan/2011/04/03/india-and-pakistan-practising-peace/comment-page-3/#comment-37457 Wed, 13 Apr 2011 12:08:28 +0000 http://blogs.reuters.com/pakistan/?p=7125#comment-37457 @KPSingh,
Please consider the possibility your passionate dislike of IG (for other reasons) may cloud your assessment of her. It is true she destroyed inner party democracy in Congress party, a great disservice to the country. Your comment her European looks is the reason for her success is rather unfortunate. You don’t understand, to this day only the Nehru dynasty has genuine pan-Indian appeal, from Assam to Gujarat, Kashmir to Kanyakumari. They have been to this day willing to listen to the periphral states, and display the impression they don’t belong to one part of the country. This doesn’t mean I approve dynastic rule. Just pointing out the reality.

Your comments about Indian “hegemony” as claimed by paks.

It is very simple. This is a code word to demand
(1)India should punch BELOW its size, economy, military stength would permit
(2) Pakistan should punch ABOVE its size, economy, military strength would permit.

In 5 years if Indian economy is 20 times the size of Pakistan’s, still they should be treated as equals :-)
Any one who understands this has understood the “pakistan ideology”.

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By: prasadgc http://blogs.reuters.com/pakistan/2011/04/03/india-and-pakistan-practising-peace/comment-page-3/#comment-37456 Wed, 13 Apr 2011 07:12:49 +0000 http://blogs.reuters.com/pakistan/?p=7125#comment-37456 Matrixx,

It’s more nuanced than that, and you’re intelligent enough to understand it. The point being made is that the PA has acted belligerently in the past (and this perhaps continues).

Taking these arguments to mean that everyone in Pakistan is evil is unwarranted. On the contrary, KP has often made the point that the people of Pakistan have been misled by the establishment.

Try and engage without escalation.

Regards,
Ganesh Prasad

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By: Matrixx http://blogs.reuters.com/pakistan/2011/04/03/india-and-pakistan-practising-peace/comment-page-3/#comment-37455 Wed, 13 Apr 2011 06:37:43 +0000 http://blogs.reuters.com/pakistan/?p=7125#comment-37455 KPSingh: According to you, it is all Pakistan’s fault and all evil exists in Pakistan. Does it not mean that Indians should stay away from Pakistan? You in fact reinforce my position that there is no basis for good relations between the two countries.
Even the evil people have the right to choose their friends and enemies. Thanks for your advice.

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By: KPSingh01 http://blogs.reuters.com/pakistan/2011/04/03/india-and-pakistan-practising-peace/comment-page-3/#comment-37454 Wed, 13 Apr 2011 04:29:18 +0000 http://blogs.reuters.com/pakistan/?p=7125#comment-37454 Matrix: “Since India is coordinating with America, it is rigid and hegemonic in its treatment of Pakistan and it is not a road to peace. In any case, later this year, the Afghanistan policy proposals will set the future trends.”

You guys keep saying India is hegemonic. Please provide some logical points to support this statement. A hegemonic state will do what Pakistan will do – demand everything in its favor. Pakistan demands that India hold plebiscite in Indian held Kashmir. No one talks about PoK. Pakistan demands that India close down all consulates in Afghanistan. Pakistan demands that India leave Afghanistan because “there is nothing common between Indians and Afghans.” But Pakistan is smooching with China with whom there is absolutely nothing common. Pakistan demands that America should be their loyal ally and not favor India. Give one example of what India has demanded. It is Pakistan that has refused to help and co-operate when it citizens entered India and killed innocent civilians at Mumbai. India has not sent in its Hindutva brigades and wreaked havoc inside Pakistan. Hegemonist states will campaign hard on all fronts and deny privileges to their enemies. They will not stop pushing wherever they can. Look at the picture clearly. Pakistan has been doing most of it. India has no interest in dominating others today. India simply does not want to be dominated or intimidated. Whatever it has been doing is in this regard.

You are banking too much on Afghanistan’s future. The problem is there is going to be no future. Pakistan simply cannot go back to the days of controlling Afghanistan by remote control. It does not have the money, resources or support to do that. It is no longer the darling of the ignorant West. China will get in and control things. And when Chinese control, they will give you no options. They make the rules and you and your Afghan brothers will follow them. Because there will be no one else left to sympathize with you. The next phase will see China facing the Islamists. It will be an interesting encounter. They have no idea what they are going to deal with. But they have their own brutal ways to achieve their ends. They are accountable to no one.

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By: KPSingh01 http://blogs.reuters.com/pakistan/2011/04/03/india-and-pakistan-practising-peace/comment-page-3/#comment-37453 Wed, 13 Apr 2011 04:15:04 +0000 http://blogs.reuters.com/pakistan/?p=7125#comment-37453 Ganesh: “It’s a very different picture of her than what we are used to hearing, that she was “the only man in the cabinet”. Still, who knows what lies behind the public persona?”

The others were mostly clowns. Only may be Morarji Desai had some leadership skill. IG’s clique wiped out the base for many older generation Gandhian politicians. Hers was a new generation that took India in a different direction. I sometimes dread to think what would have happened if IG and(or) Sanjay Gandhi had lived longer.

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By: KPSingh01 http://blogs.reuters.com/pakistan/2011/04/03/india-and-pakistan-practising-peace/comment-page-3/#comment-37452 Wed, 13 Apr 2011 04:11:27 +0000 http://blogs.reuters.com/pakistan/?p=7125#comment-37452 Ganesh: “he Prime Minister is the head of government. The President is the head of state.

Trivia: Heads of state get a 21-gun salute. Heads of government have to make do with 19 ”

Thanks. However, in the Indian system, President is a rubber stamp. It is the Prime Minister who has the power. So his or her decisions count.

I have read the biography of Indira Gandhi by her friend Pupul Jeyakar long ago. In that she describes IG’s personality. She was a cut throat politician at the same time. Her coquettish demeanor belied the power craze in her. She led the Indian democracy by institutionalizing corruption. She won by her charisma more than anything else. She looked white and European. Most backward and poor people had no qualms about voting her to power, no matter where she stood for election. Her father and her son had the same charisma and reach. None of the present day Indian leaders have the mass appeal that spans across the whole country. I do not know how Rahul Gandhi would fare. White skin and European looks fetches a lot of favor in India without needing much effort.

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By: prasadgc http://blogs.reuters.com/pakistan/2011/04/03/india-and-pakistan-practising-peace/comment-page-3/#comment-37451 Wed, 13 Apr 2011 03:26:59 +0000 http://blogs.reuters.com/pakistan/?p=7125#comment-37451 Netizen posted:

> ISLAMABAD, Aug 1: Pakistan Air Force and Navy were not taken into confidence by the top army command as they started a secret operation to launch infiltrators into Kashmir — an operation which finally led to Pakistan-India war in 1965, said former chief of the Air Staff, Air Marshal Nur Khan, here on Monday.

Not just Air Marshal Nur Khan, Air Marshal Asghar Khan (who had retired just before the 65 war), said the same thing. He contacted Ayub Khan and the latter confirmed to him that Pakistan has indeed attacked first.

This is available in an interview excerpted in one of the episodes of An Enemy Imagined (don’t remember which one, but watch all 18 installments anyway). It’s all available on YouTube. Also check out all the things Prof Aasim Sajjad of LUMS has to say in this (Pakistan-produced) series.

Matrixx, you need to get rid of the earplugs and the blindfold and *really* open your mind. No one objects to a difference of opinion and robust debate but beyond a point, your state of denial gets tiresome and people don’t respect you anymore.

Regards,
Ganesh Prasad

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