Ilyas Kashmiri reported killed in drone strike in Pakistan

June 4, 2011

Ilyas Kashmiri, commander of the al Qaeda-linked Harakat-ul-Jihad al-Islami (HUJI), has been reported to have been killed in a drone attack in South Waziristan in Pakistan. He had been pronounced dead before in 2009, only to have his death disproved through an interview he gave to the late Pakistani journalist Saleem Shahzad. So any assessment of the significance of his death needs to carry a big health warning.

That said, there appears to be rather more evidence this time around of his death, including a statement faxed to Pakistani media from someone who claimed to be a spokesman for HUJI. And if accurate, it would be very significant for reasons which go far beyond one man.

For a start, it would be the first clear result of renewed and redefined cooperation between Pakistan and the United States after the May 2 killing by U.S. forces of Osama bin Laden in the Pakistani town of Abbottabad.  Pakistani officials, who publicly condemn drone missile strikes while condoning them in private, have said these are effective when carried out in coordination with Pakistani intelligence. Those carried out by the CIA acting alone have been blamed for causing the civilian casualties that help make these strikes deeply unpopular in Pakistan. A Pakistani intelligence official said that Ilyas Kashmiri was killed following a tip-off from local intelligence.

Ilyas Kashmiri inhabited the netherworld between Pakistan’s former jihadi proxies once cultivated for use against India and the Arab “outsiders” from al Qaeda. Though HUJI  was affiliated to al Qaeda, it was never clear how far it had been integrated into the organisation. Yet it is precisely that netherworld that is the source of many of the  “double-game” allegations levelled at, and denied by, Pakistan – that its security establishment, or parts of it, maintain links to some militans while fighting others. 

Ilyas Kashmiri once fought India in Kashmir. But after being blamed for organising attacks within Pakistan, he became an enemy of the state and decamped to the Federally Administered Tribal Areas (FATA). Yet India in particular has alleged that he retained links to some of his former contacts in the Inter-Services Intelligence (ISI) agency.

An Indian government report on David Headley, the American arrested in Chicago who has admitted to carrying out surveillance for the 2008 Mumbai attacks, makes several references to links between Ilyas Kashmiri and individual ISI agents. Headley, it says, visited Ilyas Kashmiri twice in 2009, and discussed plans for an attack on Denmark, where the newspaper Jyllands-Posten had published cartoons deemed offensive to Islam. The men present “even discussed a general attack on Copenhagen,” it quoted Headley as saying. On both occasions, Headley travelled there with a man it named as Abdul Rehman, who in a separate part of the report is described as backed by the ISI. Another of the men who accompanied him, named as Ijaz, had retired from the airforce. “Ilyas Kashmiri knew Ijaz’s brother who happened to be an ISI agent,” it quoted Headley as saying.

Pakistan rejects accusations that individual ISI agents might have been in touch with Ilyas Kashmiri. Officials also frequently complain of Indian propaganda levelled against Pakistan in a “psyops” campaign by its intelligence agency, the Research and Analysis Wing (R&AW.) It has blamed its earlier inability to track down Ilyas Kashmiri on the fact that he moved frequently, and has pointed to the numerous attacks within Pakistan as evidence of its determination to fight Islamist militants. Cvilians, soldiers and the ISI itself have all been targetted in a wave of bombings across Pakistan.

Whatever the truth — and that is something we are unlikely to know for years –  Ilyas Kashmiri’s death could herald an important shift in Pakistan’s battle against Islamist militants, which so far has been primarliy targetted at the Tehrik-e-Taliban Pakistan (TTP) and al Qaeda leaders.

According to media reports, and first reported by ABC News on May 27, Ilyas Kashmiri had been included on a list of five militant leaders the Untied States had asked Pakistan to provide intelligence about immediately and possibly target in joint operations. ABC News said the list, conveyed during a visit to Islamabad by Secretary of State Hillary Clnton, also included bin Laden’s deputy, Ayman al Zawahiri, Atiya Abdul Rahman, the Libyan operations chief of al Qaeda,  Haqqani network commander Sirajuddin Haqqani, and Afghan Taliban leader Mullah Omar.

I have subsequently heard a somewhat similar version of that list from an official who also named Zawahiri, Abdul Rehman and Ilyas Kashmiri as likely targets for joint operations.  Haqqani, whose fighters form part of the Afghan Taliban and are dominant in eastern Afghanistan, was also cited in the list I was given. The United States and Pakistan, however, have different views on the extent to which the Haqqanis need to be targetted and how far they might eventually be brought into a political settlement in Afghanistan.

Mullah Omar, whose representatives are reported to be holding direct talks with the Americans, was not, from what I was told, included as a target.  As Ahmed Rashid has argued, it would make little sense to kill Mullah Omar while trying to work out whether it is possible to negotiate a peace deal with him.

In the absence of any transparency about what is actually going on,  we are unlikely to know for sure who is actually on that list (assuming it exists.)  It is worth remembering, though, that leaks by unnamed officials which include Mullah Omar and Haqqani on that list, combined with reports of Ilyas Kashmiri’s death,  could have the effect of putting pressure on one or both them to be more open to negotiating a settlement.

Lastly, but not leastly, Ilyas Kashmiri’s death could help reduce the risk of a militant attack on India designed to provoke a war with Pakistan on its eastern border and take the pressure off al Qaeda and other militants holed up on its western border with Afghanistan.  While little is known for sure about Ilyas Kashmiri, his interest in attacking India was never in doubt – unlike the Arabs in al Qaeda whose sights have historically been set on the Middle East and the United States.

42 comments

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He is a product of the Pakistani military system. The following link says that he took the head of an Indian army soldier as a souvenir and Musharraf rewarded him.

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/india  /IIyas-Kashmiri-one-of-most-dreaded-ter rorists-to-step-out-of-JK/articleshow/87 29821.cms

Now most probably many of the crimes that are still about to be resolved will be blamed on this criminal and some of the real culprits will be let off. Now that the guy is dead, he can be linked to a number of acts with impunity.

Posted by KPSingh01 | Report as abusive

[...] Kashmiri wanted to provoke India-Pakistan warThe HinduBBC News -Telegraph.co.uk -Reuters Blogs (blog)all 1,018 news [...]

[...] Kashmiri wanted to provoke India-Pakistan warThe HinduBBC News -Telegraph.co.uk -Reuters Blogs (blog)all 1,013 news [...]

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[...] belligerent reportedly killed by worker conflict in PakistanLos Angeles TimesBBC News -Reuters Blogs (blog) -Telegraph.co.ukall 1,035 headlines [...]

India is not an innocent bystander it has always tried to take advantage against Pakistan’s internal problems. What interference India has been doing in Baluchistan is 100% true. Pakistan is only protected from Indian attacks because of its nuclear deterrent. The western press and the Indian writers bias against Pakistan do not understand and cannot empathize with the problems that Pakistan faces as they only want to see the negative side of Pakistan.

A country India that interfered and attacked in 1971 to divide Pakistan in two halves how can that country be your friend ever? But one has to realize that here in the west they just not see who helped them defeat USSR and are always ungrateful to the country that has sacrificed itself against the expansion of communism.

Is it not the fault of USA’s policies that itself was the creator Al-Qaida and forgot about them from 1989-2001 until USA in 2011 was attacked that they got back to this region!! This region has been burning since 1980′s with 1000′s of deaths as these so -called mujhaideen were not rehabilitated. Can you fault Pakistan for all the problems when USA leaves this region whenever it deems fit and them comes back when things have already gone out of hands!!!

Posted by ratee | Report as abusive

ratee

I agree every single word you wrote, to free eastern europe from communist tyranny Pakistan had to pay a huge price. While our friends in west still are helping but not enough, Pakistan has suffered the most. Ironically, India still poses an existential threat to Pakistan, despite many arguments on this blog with intellectual Indians holding PhD’s, I am still not convinced. Until India poses an existential threat to Pakistan, there will be no hope.
Too bad no one seems to see the positive side of things, let the dogs bark and the caravans should move on. History shows Pakistan has a tendency to defy the odds, it should be no different now either.

Posted by Umairpk | Report as abusive

KPSingh

If you have any shame, and I challenge you here; the link you posted above, i want you to acknowledge that Pakistan is battling against terrorism. But you shameless people have no agenda just to spew hatred against Pakistan. I don’t think you have it in you to take the challenge, or will you?

Posted by Umairpk | Report as abusive

And if the HUMINT from ISI helped locate Kashmiri leading to a drone strike, it is a good riddance. He might well have provoked an Indo-Pak war.
But ironically, when next time a mouse will fart in India, ISI will be blamed.. LOL what a bunch of loosers.

Posted by Umairpk | Report as abusive

Umair said:

> i want you to acknowledge that Pakistan is battling against terrorism.

Of course! Now that the flames have spread to your own house, you are definitely trying to put out the fire. We can readily see and accept that. But it all started when your guys in uniform tried to set fire to your neighbour’s house, remember? You were quite happy to watch and applaud then. And you still take no action against the guys setting fire to the neighbour’s house because they’re “freedom fighters”. The ones setting fire to your own house are the bad guys.

When you accept that ALL of them are bad guys and take action against ALL of them, that’s when you will get international sympathy. All this sponsorship of some terrorists and confrontation of other terrorists will not wash. It’s all or nothing. That’s really the challenge that has been thrown to Pakistan, and the world is watching to see how sincere you guys really are.

> But ironically, when next time a mouse will fart in India, ISI will be blamed.. LOL what a bunch of loosers.

There is enough evidence linking ISI to terror attacks aginst India, so it’s not baseless. On the other hand, without a shred of evidence, when a mouse farts in Baluchistan today, RAW is being blamed. What should Pakistanis be called then?

Regards,
Ganesh Prasad

Posted by prasadgc | Report as abusive

Umair,

When will you stop blaming India and hold your own army to account? It’s almost like Pakistanis are afraid to face a brave new world of peaceful relations. In hostility, you can pretend to be the equal of India. In peace, you will be seen to be a much smaller country. Is that the existential threat you guys are really afraid of — being seen as a much smaller country than you have so far seemed to be?

Regards,
Ganesh Prasad

Posted by prasadgc | Report as abusive

Ganesh:” In peace, you will be seen to be a much smaller country. Is that the existential threat you guys are really afraid of — being seen as a much smaller country than you have so far seemed to be?”.
Ganesh, In fact not just being a small country economically or geographically but morally too. When the countries are in peace -The international community compares Human Development Indices and not number of nuclear warheads or size of miltary which makes them shudder even more.
Stragely though Its the right time to call off this conflict as there isn’t much difference between India and pakistan on HDI front. Ten years down the line the fissures would be even more dramatic and stark.

Posted by sensiblepatriot | Report as abusive

@Ratee, Umair
Your statements are full of emotions but very accurate. Pakistan’s woes from the neighbouring India are not going to end in the very near future and therefore should not be considered in its deliberations with other key issues of the world. India is a rising economic but not a political power, whereas the USA is a declining one in economics and politics. Wikileak certainly tarnished its image specialy its State Dept. under Hillary Clinton. Pakistan unfortunately under Musharaf got knotted with the USA inspite of past disappointing experience and ever since sits in a soup, looking after the security of the USA, having ignored all its own National prioraties.

The sentences you wrote about the caravan, was once used by the former Chancellor(Prime Minister) of Germany when he was addressing the criticism from Margret Thatcher, the former Prime Minister of the UK. He also said that she should sweep in front of her own house and we shall sweep in front of ours. This could be applied in many countries of the world. Today, Germany is the economic motor of Europe and not UK or France who were the victors of ww2!
There is also a saying that if one’s own hen is a loyal one, she should not be laying eggs in the neighbouring house!War is a terror and creates resistance, which can only end if the war stops. No one can negotiate with resistance, since resistance comes from an individual, a group of people and many groups of people. There is usualy no central command and no central control. Could any one imagine that Hitler would not have very much liked to negotiate with the French resistance? The resistance had neither face nor leadership in WW2 resistance. You are witnessing similar drama in Afghanistan. The anglo saxons on the other hand are very much used to labelling individuals, institutions and countries, most probably due to using English language whic has a very limited scope. The outgoing Robert Gates talks about disarming the talibans and Mr Karzai is asking for the full stop in bombing civilian houses and night raids causing the deaths of women and children.

Pakistan Govt. is very weak and is unable to conduct an intlligent and productive intercourse with the American administration, which is equaly the weakest in history. Have we not seen that Navy Seals were sent for action since Mr Mullen had no faith in the marines, and even then their performance was the lousiest, fifty percent own casualties and an unarmed old man was killed and the body snatched and disposed of. The consolaion prize was that the old man was THE wanted terrorist. Surprise, surprise. No evidence, just believe the words of those who have lied before in front of the world. Pakistan leaders are of the same class and reckon that it is cleaver to mislead or perhaps the best way to hide incompetence. To be honest I would not trust Mr Zardari or the former Bandit Musharaf with one solid Nickle. Americans are generous people, they even went for a son of a kenyan instead of Hillary Clinton whose husband got the economy going and was making headway with the rest of the world in a very positive style for the USA.O’k, he got bogged down with Israel/Palestinian issue which is a chronic problem anyway, and had already cost them the life of Robert ennedy.

Rex Minor

Posted by pakistan | Report as abusive

Ps Robert Kennedy was killed by a palestinian!

Posted by pakistan | Report as abusive

This is good news for staunch supporters of Pakistan army/ISI like Myra and Umairpk. Ilyas Kashmiri was killed ONLY because he wasn’t taking instructions from GHQ/ISI.

The real terrorists are PA/ISI cowards who couldn’t win any wars but sponsor terrorism on unarmed civilians in India and Afghanistan. There is another ethnic genocide of Baluchis is unfolding, the cowards are accusing India to divert attention. The same tactic they employed in 1971 in Bangladesh dismissing everything as Indian machination.

Meanwhile paki civilians are increasingly demanding accountability from PA/ISI cowards who live a luxurious life style amassing wealth thru real estate and other business deals while the general public is staring at steep economic hardship. When are the ” bloody civvies” going to storm the Bastille??

Posted by netizen | Report as abusive

ISI has executed a journalist Gestapo style. “bloody civvies” are up in arms, momentum is building up. Every one is realizing instead of focusing on mythical “al qaeda”, the real terrorists are with PA/ISI.

Posted by netizen | Report as abusive

http://www.dailyindia.com/show/443606.ph p

‘Pakistan military behind recent attempt to assassinate Zardari’
The professor said that blast or terrorist incidents in Pakistan, including the assassination attempt against Zardari, is basically the “policy of the military, which is sometimes hidden and sometimes open.”

“They make attempts on those lives with whom they have a difference. And this time I think the difference concerns the operations in Waziristan. I think now they are trying to shut Asif Zardari down,” he opined.

Dr. Wasif also said that when “you have Pakistan’s military, you do not need any external enemy for that matter to push Pakistan’s people to press democracy.”

Posted by netizen | Report as abusive

Netizen,

give it a rest too much propaganda is not good for your health, take it easy, I know Pakistan Army and ISI are a pain in your a$$ but take it easy, better yet suck it up! for now that is!
And just one coconut liberal like Asma Jehangir bashing the Army does not mean Pakistani public will storm the GHQ. I have had my college friends lay down their lives for Pakistan, as in the Army they state, we have nothing to offer but toil, sweat and blood! I bet these coconut liberals and shameful politicians like Zardari will sell the nation. Lets not forget it was former CJSC Gen. Tariq Majeed who supported Zardari in office otherwise he would have been kicked out.
Or i know my dad’s colleague’s son struck with an RPG in foot, disabled and in rehab medicine in hospital for 10 months still he and his mom on live radio program boosting the morale of the nation.
Or a classmate of mine, his dad, Surgeon General of Pakistan Army a top opthalmologist, martyred in suicide attack, such is the sacrifice I would like to remind our coconut liberals.

Come what may, we salute Pakistan Armed Forces!

Now tell me what are the clowns of IA upto? what are those idiots good for? eating billions of dollars annually and can’t even handle a country seven times smaller. Even a mouse farts in India and ISI is blamed…..shame on you cowards.

Our soldiers, sailors and airmen are a story of bravery, courage and professionalism. There is a long tradition of defending the motherland, and due to India the strategic calculus of Pakistan’s security establishment will not change until India keeps animosity towards Pakistan Army and ISI. Even Pakistan has its differences with US and we are not on same page most of the times, but there is no propaganda against either Pak Army or ISi rather Americans work together.

Posted by Umairpk | Report as abusive

Extra rounds of begging bowl circulation at Washington DC then ?? More crawling and shameless prostration at the feet of Chinese, Saudi masters?

Posted by netizen | Report as abusive

I know Pakistan Army and ISI are a pain in your a$$ but

I have always posted a PA completely exposed as it is now is amongst the least important problems facing India. You were able to indulge in so much terrorism inside India only because of American diplomatic cover. Other than terrorism (and printing currency) you can’t do anything. Even with that look where you are.

Every single day pak “bloody civvies” are writing articles in pak media you (PA/ISI) are pain in the a$$ to the civvies :-)

You need to worry about them rather than what bloody Indians think about it.

Posted by netizen | Report as abusive

ratee: “India is not an innocent bystander it has always tried to take advantage against Pakistan’s internal problems.”

If you throw stones into your neighbor’s house then expect them to return the courtesy. Right from the start your country’s psyche has been filled with macho and bravado – one Pak soldier is equal to ten Indians, we ruled Hindustan for 1000 years etc. This led to such a stupid belief that in 1965 Pakistan launched an attack on India with the above assumptions. Little did the army planners know that their resources were not going to last for long. 1965 war was driven entirely by bravado that the likes of Umair still exhibit today.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=djhkiqttu 24&feature=related

We have gone over these arguments many times over. But Pakistanis have never acknowledged any of their mistakes to date. In 1948 and 1965, Pakistan foolishly engaged in conflict with India. On both occasions they made the plans and knew what the response would be. India had to react to Pakistan’s bouncers. So when 1971 crisis erupted in East Pakistan, based on Pakistan’s track record, it was a very strategic decision to help separate that region. Bengalis were not inclined to be a part of Jinnah’s grand vision anyway. We were dealing with millions of their refugees. So we helped them knowing well that the macho and brainless Pak military would retaliate. Again they made the mistake of attacking India, for the third time. So on all three occasions, Pakistan has been the aggressor. When any nation is faced with an aggressive and hostile neighbor, they have every right to be proactive and make the necessary moves to ensure that such acts are discouraged. And that is not the same as taking advantage. You do not throw stones at us and we will leave you alone.

“What interference India has been doing in Baluchistan is 100% true.”

Provide the evidence. Whereas Pakistan’s involvement in crimes against India have been proven. The recent one is the case that is going on in Chicago. In fact, Pakistan’s collusion with terrorists has become an open secret for the whole world.

I do support the Balochis as an individual. I want them to separate from Pakistan. This may not be the view of my fellow countrymen. But I have my own views. Balochistan was never a part of Pakistan. So is the case with Kashmir, and NWFP. Pashtuns did not want to be part of Pakistan. So if they want to go on their own, I support it wholeheartedly. And I am sure all you Pakistanis want to celebrate and cheer the dismemberment of India. But that hope seems to be slipping away.

“Pakistan is only protected from Indian attacks because of its nuclear deterrent.”

So why call our country as an existential threat? I am hearing that Pakistan has more nukes than UK and France. How can your neighbor become a threat when you become more threatening than them? It is we who should be worried. You have the nukes, you have the militants, you have the army which has no goal other than to fight us in a 1000 year war, your country has repeatedly attacked us directly and indirectly. So do the math. And now your country is on flames. So we are worried about that fire spreading in our direction.

“The western press and the Indian writers bias against Pakistan do not understand and cannot empathize with the problems that Pakistan faces as they only want to see the negative side of Pakistan.”

Your problems are self created. So go and fix them. No one can sympathize with war addicted lunatics. Try building a nation some time.

“A country India that interfered and attacked in 1971 to divide Pakistan in two halves how can that country be your friend ever?”

You helped secessionists in Kashmir and Khalistan. You lose the moral high ground to accuse others of doing the same to you. We did not attack in 1971.
We did not start the war. We only ended it decisively.

“But one has to realize that here in the west they just not see who helped them defeat USSR and are always ungrateful to the country that has sacrificed itself against the expansion of communism.”

Blah, blah! If Pakistan helped defeat communism, they will not be jumping into the lap of communist China and call them your inseparable brothers. Try that logic with someone else. Your military willfully engaged in the cold war against the Soviets because – your country was ostracized before that, Zia wanted to Islamize Pakistan, cover was needed to build the nukes, dollars and dinars poured in like torrent and most of all, in the long term, the whole jihad could be unleashed in Kashmir. There was nothing in Pakistan’s agenda for freeing other parts of the world from communism or whatever. That happened because the US won that war. Pakistan got its share of goodies by siding with the US. Do not take credit for what you did not contribute to. Your own citizens did not have the freedom from dictatorship then.

“Is it not the fault of USA’s policies that itself was the creator Al-Qaida”

The US did not create Al Qaeda. It created the conditions that could breed terror organizations like Al Qaeda, LeT, HuJi, JuD and ISI. It was Pakistan that preserved them and nurtured them after the war with Soviets was over. The reason is simple – these were meant for the next proxy war against India and its dismemberment.

“and forgot about them from 1989-2001 until USA in 2011 was attacked that they got back to this region!!”

Pakistan did contract work with the US by offering its land, resources and militants in return for dollars/dinars, military equipment, training, diplomatic support, connivance for illegal nuclear bomb build up etc for a long term future conflict with India. Pakistan went into collusion with the US mainly because of India-centric policy. Musharraf joined the war on terror (what a farce!) mainly because he was afraid the US would go to India otherwise. He was willing to drop all his clothes for it. Such is the India-phobia in Pakistani mindset.

“This region has been burning since 1980?s with 1000?s of deaths as these so -called mujhaideen were not rehabilitated. Can you fault Pakistan for all the problems when USA leaves this region whenever it deems fit and them comes back when things have already gone out of hands!!!”"

Yes. Pakistan is at fault. All terrorist acts trace back to Pakistan. Every large terrorist has been found in Pakistan, including Bin Laden. Flies always like to stay on dung. Dung attracts them. Why blame the Americans? Have you looked at what your country is made of? Ponder on why flies are flocking to Dungistan.

Posted by KPSingh01 | Report as abusive

Pakistan’s existential threat claims resemble the existential threat of Al Qaeda and other criminal organizations. Al Qaeda kills people in the US and hides itself inside Pakistan and complains that it is facing existential threat from the US. See the logic. Do not mess with others if you do not want them to mess with you. We are here because you are messing with us.

Posted by KPSingh01 | Report as abusive

Umairpk:”And just one coconut liberal like Asma Jehangir bashing the Army does not mean Pakistani public will storm the GHQ”.
Nice name you have given her though, she is better than somebody who like a fox in sheep’s clothing live in upwardly mobile classes but exhibits at the same time bigotry of middle ages.

Umairpk:”And just one coconut liberal like Asma Jehangir bashing the Army does not mean Pakistani public will storm the GHQ”.
No, they wont for sure.But Asma et al, know where the power of the military lies. It lies in the electronic media and urdu press which keep on harping about the invincibility,intelligency of Army and what not. Now she along with determined individuals and unshakeable convictions are demolishing this narrative. Not surprisingly, people are fed on these lies and people wants to keep status-quo are extremely frustrated.

umairpk:” I have had my college friends lay down their lives for Pakistan, as in the Army they state, we have nothing to offer but toil, sweat and blood! I bet these coconut liberals and shameful politicians like Zardari will sell the nation”.
Soldiers lay down their lives and its their job in times of war. For a moment can you analyze who in the pakistani establishment brought the war on your country in the first place. I hear the defeaning silence now.

Yes civilians are generally corrupt but they are enough corrupt to make your country continue to run business activities so they can earn more! Dont understand, see zardari and their likes wants to earn money and for this they will allow industry to prosper albeit for a license (you can call it corruption 10% I guess :-) ).The Army on the other hand with a fixed amount of revenues guarenteed can play big boy war games and without any productive work or respnsibilities (in pakistan’s case), nice isnt’it?

umairpk:”Or i know my dad’s colleague’s son struck with an RPG in foot, disabled and in rehab medicine in hospital for 10 months still he and his mom on live radio program boosting the morale of the nation”.
Poor soul, but isn’t he a foot soldier for your Army’s grand big boy strategic games and casuality for their hubris and arrogance. If you haven’t noticed for every Armed pakistani soldier who gave up his life. Literally tens of citizens have died under Army’s boot whether in extra judicial killings or plan pograms in baluchistan.

umairpk:”Or a classmate of mine, his dad, Surgeon General of Pakistan Army a top opthalmologist, martyred in suicide attack, such is the sacrifice I would like to remind our coconut liberals”.
Again who brought the war to the country, the same coconut liberal is trying to make you remember this but hard skull coconut heads don’t understand that.

umairpk:”Come what may, we salute Pakistan Armed Forces!”
And then distribute half of your revenues to them and start begging the world for Aid. Right!

umairpk:”Now tell me what are the clowns of IA upto? what are those idiots good for? eating billions of dollars annually and can’t even handle a country seven times smaller”.
Unlike your country, Civilians hold the power and responsiblity in our state,not the Army and I am not sure you can comprehend that. If the Army were to set policy on pakistan, I would have been different.
We are happy with seperation of tasks for Army and civilians and happy to have current state structure where decisive power in the hands of civlians. we may not believe a political party at any point of time but we believe in political leadershiop setting our agenda and priorities. And we are happy with that.

umairpk:”Our soldiers, sailors and airmen are a story of bravery, courage and professionalism. There is a long tradition of defending the motherland”
we have seen your army’s professionalism in kargil when they refused to accept the bodies of your soldiers so dont give that to us. Regarding the defence of your motherland (good you use that word in a semi theocratic state), no Army in its history lost more than half of its population who voluntaruly seceded owing to your genocide of hapless citizens of that province.Nor your bravery of surrender of 93000 prisoners a record of sort.Incidentally thats what our army did to you when pakistan was only third smaller.

Posted by sensiblepatriot | Report as abusive

A wonderful article from Ardeshir cowasjee. Hope umair has gone through that.
http://www.dawn.com/2011/06/05/emotion-v ersus-reality.html

Posted by sensiblepatriot | Report as abusive

@Umair
Is it not a bit strange that Pakistan military needed an american drone and an american operator to take out this joker ilyas Kashmiri, who is rumored to be involved in many criminal acts? Is the tribal area now closed for Pakistan Govt.? Pakistan leaders have a lot of explanation to answer the unrest which is now spreading among the urban population. Should Pakistan be preparing itself for the yemen type or Egyptian type revolution now?

Rex Minor

Posted by pakistan | Report as abusive

Umair: “If you have any shame, and I challenge you here; the link you posted above, i want you to acknowledge that Pakistan is battling against terrorism.”

You reap what you sow. Why feel victimized in this? Pakistan bred various terrorist groups as proxy units to start a new style of warfare inside India. It was based on the experience built for ten years against the Soviets. All the elements that were unleashed against the Russians needed another engagement immediately. Otherwise they would have eaten Pakistan alive then itself. Kashmir Jihad was launched and for ten odd years India took the brunt. More than 70000 people lost their lives and all the blame was put on the Indian military and campaign was sustained to make India the bad country. Afghanistan was brutally suppressed by creating and unleashing the Taliban that treated people like cattle for slaughter. Two neighboring countries were burnt with terrorism bred and nurtured by Pakistan. Even after 9/11, several terrorist strikes were unleashed in India. The Americans under Obama did something good for a change. They tightened funding to Pakistan with strict conditions, pressed hard on the militants and began to expose Pakistan as the real villain. Now, Pakistan is facing the blow back of the investment it made two decades ago. Breeding poisonous snakes will only lead to eventual death by the same snake poison. Who will pity someone who breeds snakes to kill others or threaten them with snakes? You reason it out.

“But you shameless people have no agenda just to spew hatred against Pakistan.” I don’t think you have it in you to take the challenge, or will you?”

We only criticize. Criticism is not tantamount to hatred. We have offered our wishes and support under dire circumstances. But with deaf ears you people have chosen to ignore it. Probably it is due to built up hatred that has blinded you people.

“I don’t think you have it in you to take the challenge, or will you?”

We are a civilized nation. We have a set up that has a proper government, civil administration, functioning judiciary etc. We cannot go beyond what our constitution allows for. And we deal with all issues based on legal methods. Your countryman Kasab is still alive after killing so many innocent civilians. This does not mean we become cowards. As much as possible things have to be done in a civilized way in a normal nation like ours. Having grown up in a militant infested and radicalized country, I don’t think you have any exposure to how a normal nation functions. We all pity you for that.

Posted by KPSingh01 | Report as abusive

The snake is having diarrhea, severe internal organ damage and is shivering viciously almost in death bed. It produced so much venom hoping to destroy neighbors.

Posted by netizen | Report as abusive

[...] saying Kashmiri had been "martyred," and declaring, "America is our enemy" (Reuters, AP, ET). A spokesman for the group Tehrik-i-Taliban Pakistan (TTP) denied Kashmiri’s death [...]

Pakistani commentators here never fail to keeping repeating how much Pakistan did to help the US and the West defeat the Soviets in Afghanistan. Very often I wonder whether that was the only reason that Pakistan joined up in the Western camp?

Does it mean that the Pakistanis were otherwise comfortable having the Soviets in Afghanistan and they just ‘helped’ out the west, as a big huge favour, to stop the Soviets from reaching Pakistan’s door step. Would Pakistan have been comfortable with that situation?

I wonder if anyone here would like to attempt an honest answer to that question.
Personally I think that the West did more of a favour to Pakistan than the other way round as we keep hearing ad nauseum here. Would like to hear from the other camp.

Posted by DaraIndia | Report as abusive

DaraIndia: “Does it mean that the Pakistanis were otherwise comfortable having the Soviets in Afghanistan and they just ‘helped’ out the west, as a big huge favour, to stop the Soviets from reaching Pakistan’s door step. Would Pakistan have been comfortable with that situation? ”

All alliances are made with based on the alignment of mutual objectives. America wanted Pakistan to take on the Soviets and Pakistan wanted America to use their land in return for a lot of things that were specific to their India-phobia missions. Other than that, the US had no interest in the region and Pakistan had no other interest. Pakistanis accuse the US of abandoning them after the Soviets were defeated. That is because the US accomplished its objective and had no further use for Pakistan at that time. Pakistan was only beginning to launch its mission and expected support and connivance from the US in return for its loyalty in the war against the Soviets. And they got it. Even after 9/11, the US was hesitant to turn its back on Pakistan. This time the US objective is not aligning with that of Pakistan. Hence all the friction. So Pakistan is thrusting itself on China.

Posted by KPSingh | Report as abusive

@daraindia
actually this is a part of 1 (of many) of pakistans narratives that have over decades been accepted by the west- even if more fiction than fact (goebbels- the most successful lies may hae some small elements of fact). in this case its that a) pakistan won the cold war for the west by beating the ussr in afghanistan after it invaded and b) that pakistan was as usual abandoned by the west thereafter
; in fact most studies (i read some in the uk many moons ago) of the collapse of the ussr while acknowledging the demoralising consequences of defeat in afghanistan correctly identify many other more important structural factors for collapse of ussr, and, in any case, the usa didnt collapse due to similar defeat in vietnam or the iran hostage crisis etc;
also the ussr didnt invade afghanistan unilaterally but was provoked after a desperate pakistan (for strategic depth, military rule legitimisation, de- isolation, and unimpeded nuclear programme) launched jihad on its own in afghanistan; the ussr overeacted and stupidly went in, pakistan then zia persuaded a desperate carter admin to support pakistan in extending and refining the jihad (ratified by reagan admin and then financed by ksa etc); and the us didnt abandon pakistan thereafter; us aid was cut by the operation of the pressler amendment which pakistan had sufficient notice of and till the late 90s the us officials went out of their way to otherwise support pakistan in any manner not explicitly banned by the pressler amendment (it was a us official close to the isi who in early 90s got disparate elements together in kashmir to form the hurriyat);
but more over the abandonment narrative has a longer history ’65, ’71 and more recently, all similarly untrue;
it was ayub khan in 53 who offered the the usa pakistans army as ‘your army’ and not the usa which offered its army or treasury to pakistan as ‘pakistans’; the usa also provided military aid after obtaining written assurances it wouldnt be used vs india; so pakistan was aware of the consequences of violating its pledges in 65 and 71, on both occassions (especially after 71) the usa diplomatically and in many other ways supported pakistan and punished india for defending itself; so pakistan has no reason to be aggrieved that the usa hasnt fully supported pakistans anti india and caliphate agendas since the usa never said it would; and after 9/11 again there was no question of usa agreeing to support pak vs afghan and india in exchange for its support on the WOT as musharaff has recently clarified pakistan had no choice. A French journalist has also produced a timeline showing a co relation between pakistans actions vs al qaeda members and votes in the us congress on releasing aid; so theres no question that pakistan is being abandoned by usa or will be after 2014. pakistan will still have got more us support continuing than it had any right to expect after 9/11.
some commentators have correctly pointed out that many responses digress from the issue under discussion and i regret so have i. but this may in part be because of the connection of many issues with the false pakistani narratives which overlap and which over time have been bought by most western observors and due to which its not possible often to discuss an issue in isolation;
another criticism is that south asian commentators often fall prey to foul language in their comments. this criticism is certainly more valid and this should be avoided. i hope fellow indian commentators in future avoid responding in kind to pakistani provocations in this regard and instead focus on making their points clearly.

Posted by buntyj | Report as abusive

My comments are not appearing. Does this mean I am black listed? Please let me know. I am not dying to come back if that is the case.

Posted by KPSingh01 | Report as abusive

Here is Mushy boy giving his well crafted story where Pakistan can do no wrong whatsoever. It is always others – Americans, Indians, Afghans, Martians and who else is left?

http://www.cnn.com/2011/OPINION/06/08/pa kistan.pervez.musharraf.islamism/index.h tml?hpt=hp_c2

Here is the essence of his view:

1. Pakistan was forced to be formed because of Hindus
2. Pakistan was forced to join the bad and ugly USA because of India.
3. Pakistan was forced to become mostly military dictatorship controlled because of USA.
4. Pakistan was forced to join the war against the Soviets because of USSR and India
5. Pakistan groomed Jihadists because of the USA
6. Pakistan was forced to take up nukes because of India
7. Pakistan pursued Islamic militancy and terrorism because of India not resolving Kashmir
8. Pakistan was forced to seek Islamic radicalism and terrorism because the US abandoned the region.
9. Pakistan created the Taliban because Afghans were sending refugees into Pakistan
10. Pakistan became a victim of terrorism because the US pushed all terrorists into Pakistan by invading Afghanistan.
11. Pakistan is unable to fight the Haqqanis because its military is stretched thin by American operations, internal terrorism, India being ready to attack, Indian consulates inside Afghanistan
12. Pakistan is not ready for North Waziristan because Haqqanis and other important leaders are not yet ready to find a safe hiding place. And the US is holding on to all drones and will not share them with Pakistan. Pakistan needs the drones to teach the Indians a lesson.
13. Osama Bin Laden never existed. The US trained a retired NBA player and used him as a decoy to get to Pakistan’s nuclear installations.

Posted by KPSingh01 | Report as abusive

@kp – well summarised; a number of false narratives but again as goebbels is believed to have said the more a lie is repeated the more likely it will be believed;
back to the topic- it appears pakistan wants to appear to get 3 of the 5 targets while allowing mullah omar n haqqani to survive and to let haqqani s move out of nwa before any action; its not clear if us will go along despite uk support to pakistan; also its not certain kasmiri is dead. if he surgaces it will further adversely impact US-PAK relations; but China may not want to fish too much at this point (and even later may yield to us in exchange for us backing off taiwan) so why is pakistan overplaying its hand and indulging in brinkmanship?

Posted by buntyj | Report as abusive

KpSingh01:”Here is the essence of his view:
1. Pakistan was forced to be formed because of Hindus
2. Pakistan was forced to join the bad and ugly USA because of India………
13. Osama Bin Laden never existed. The US trained a retired NBA player and used him as a decoy to get to Pakistan’s nuclear installations.”
And myra supports that view. :-)

Posted by sensiblepatriot | Report as abusive

Buntyj,

Thanks for your informative comment. I don’t think you have digressed at all from the topic really because it is the usual trend here. When the subject becomes hot to handle turn the spotlight on others – India, US, Afghanistan are good enough whipping boys and it is so easy to spout bravado in front of a computer screen.

But underneath it al,l the message gets through loud and clear, because after a while the main authors disappear from the post to return somewhere else. As they say, live to fight another day.

Posted by DaraIndia | Report as abusive

I didn’t read Musharaff piece (trash), KP’s summary is good enough. You have to remember Pakistan ideology which is basically Islamosupremacist, Islamifascist hate ideology was erected on victimhood narrative. Jinnahism was just that. Consistently searching for and claiming victimhood to justify aggression and confrontation.

All Pakistanis, Myra included, subscribe to this supremacist ideology.

Posted by netizen | Report as abusive

@netizen
while i agree with the underlying point i believe you were trying to make i do not believe your language is appropriate. Myra’s sympathies are no doubt clear but they do not call for abuse or unnecessary comments and i do not believe its appropriate to use terms derogatory to any religion. Also, Islam is different from Islamism or jihad despite the best efforts of both many muslims today as well as muslim baiters to narrow the differences. while india has made its share of errors and there are facts that can be cited against us i would appeal to my fellow indian commentators to use reason and appropriate language to clearly rebut the stated or implicit allegations or errors and to recall that since the facts are more with us than against us a reasoned dialogue is the one we can most easily ‘win’.

Posted by buntyj | Report as abusive

Those who shed crocodile tears for Indian brutality/rape/torture etc in Kashmir, should take a look at how they deal with ordinary people in the land of milk and honey:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/jun  /11/pakistan-sarfaraz-shah-shooting

Posted by KPSingh01 | Report as abusive

I was about to post the same! My heart bled to death after seeing the video of a teenager shot dead brutally by the Army. I would have condemned it even if Indian Army perpetrated such horrible crime on any Indian.
If some on the forum atleast now, stop presenting the army as some angels of the God, would let us see the objective side of what army had become.

http://www.dawn.com/2011/06/11/a-country -left-to-bleed.html

To be honest, Never before, the Pakistani army is under this extreme pressure only to be superseded before by events after 1971 war.Pakistan army out of desperation to counter their dwindlinng moral and political authority has been going all out against anyone who shows little dissent and more errors are likely in their state of mind. Devoid of any political institutions to control the Pak Army, more voilence and disenchantment with the country’s establishment is instore for them in the future. With urgent necessisity to unite the army to counter the insurgency raging not only in northern territories but also in heart of punjab, Pakistan army seems to have no clue and lies in moral shambles as significant members of the armed forces are either sympathetic or too scared to taken on rebels(how could they, if the entire country is getting radicalised on account of War on Terror). Would they atleast study how their enemy no 1 dealt with such calamity.

In fact, Indian army faced similiar insults in trying to counter the insurgency in kashmir when pakistan doused the flames and watched with glee, when backlash against Indian Army fuelling even more voilence from the Armed forces.

Pakistan was watching this with glee and world was pointing its fingers on India.
Now this is the classic example of falling in the graves which you dig for others. Old wisdom seems to have caught pakistan in action if not their mental nerves.
While we Indians are watching all this in horror than satisfaction that atlast pakistan is reaping what it sowed, India had atleast political, executive and judicial institutions to correct course, which pakistan have little or no such institutions, it interesting how it unfolds.
With lack of unity on Action, Even the Pakistan Army has no gumption to take on the radicalised edifice of the pakistani state. I am not sure whether their deep state has realized it or not that, Pakistan’s terror machine is in autopilot mode now and will not stop until either it completely takes down the country with it or is taken head on by the saner elements in pakistan.
AS few have noted here that, once Americans leave and aid dries up for the Army, it becomes more dependent on the rebels and terrorists for smuggling of drugs and weapons and that it will become a perpetual hostage to druglords and lumpen elements is definite,while at the same time demanding even more money from the exchequer.
If I had been a average upper middle class pakistani, I would have either lived in my own delusions or left the country and critized her vehemently for her actions.
Interestingly thats what most of the pakistanis seem to be doing here!

Posted by sensiblepatriot | Report as abusive

If one believes this is an inflecttion point and Pakistan “will” have to make a decision now (akin to what it had to do after the events of 9/11), Unfortunately there is still more brinkmapship that pakistani Army can display.
Knowing fully that Americans are planning to cease all the combat operations by 2014 and wrap most of their military machine, even though some of regiments may still be present in the foreseeable future. Some elemets (decisive ones) in Pakistan Army is checking the Operations against the rebels for reason below.

1.Firstly once Aid dries up or becomes more targetted(to borrow the words from keith), Pakistan’s Army, addicted to additional money will have to depend on the lumpen elements and becomes a major drug exporter and smuggling mafia by itself. Not surprisingly it is here dawood fits in his double role as India baiter and mascot for the army as major drug peddler.
2.Withe Aid drying up, (2.5billion$ is big money for 6.7 Billion$ budgeted army), Pakistan can only fund Afghan Taliban with drug and poppy industry. They would do anything to distabilize Afghan state lest they think of durand line and reclaiming their border.
3.Few people in the world know that Pakistan is the most drug addicted country as percentage of population and army needs this social evil to exist for the fear that overcoming drug addition will bring more youth towards dissent against establishment.Aljazeera itself points out this worrying trend.
http://english.aljazeera.net/news/asia/2 010/01/201011283214750225.html
4.Owing to enoromous pressure from US (more so after the headley case currently in motion in chicago), pakistan will restrict the budget for the rogue ISI if not the Army. ISI will have to depend on drug mafias and it is here that it cannot take on the extremists head on.
5. With the loss of Aid, Pak Army demands more money from exchequer and it will have to be met by cutting funds where they are most required (education,health etc) and with weak political capacity to take on oragnized unions. Pakistan’s most urgent sectors may become casuality.
6. In my opinion there is no straight thing as becoming failed state in one go, but a slow,painful and a terminal decline of Authority and institions in pakistan makes the journey closer and closer and in the context of pakistan, the definition of pakistan as failed state will look more and more apparent.
I believe there is still time, if they make one last stand, will they?

Posted by sensiblepatriot | Report as abusive

sensiblepatriot said:

> In fact, Indian army faced similiar insults in trying to counter the insurgency in kashmir when pakistan doused the flames and watched with glee

That should be “FANNED the flames”. To douse is to put out.

Regards,
Ganesh Prasad

Posted by prasadgc | Report as abusive

sorry, Ganesh. It should have been Fanned, words got mixed up trying to say India army attempted to douse the fires. Thanks for identifying :-)

Posted by sensiblepatriot | Report as abusive

Lets look at most optimistic scenario for pakistan and it may play out something like this.

1.No matter what people say, Some of the military experts believe an end of war in the Af-Pak region will actually do good for the pakistan’s economy. Experts believe that the intangible losses due to War on Terror has ruined pakistan’s economy (internal displacement and radicalization) more than the Aid support which it recieved (anyways most of this aid was used to buy arms against India- remember the kerry lugar bill controversy blown in the media by military’s lackeys).

2.Somehow even I believe that an end to war may improve Pakistan’s economy in the short term as military need not engage the terrorists as americans will not press them for it. Terrorists may still blow up some buildings but they miss the fundemental narrative that pak state is in cahoots with America and so they too will come under extreme pressure to restrict their activities. Believe me even terrorists depend upon the moral strength of their cause!

3.But socializing the growth in pakistan is a challenge due to overarching factors of feudalism and extremist culture who believe that a more secular education and secular institutions will lead to their demise. In short to improve the economic situation the security must be improved and to a sustainable security environment needs improvement in macro economic indicators. Overall something dramatic must happen to come out of this vicious cycle and I believe cyril almeida of dawn is correct in saying that just ensuring a full term for PPP by Zardari and ensuring that the people vote him out of power will be a dramatic development in pakistan’s historical narrative and will be the first time a government is allowed to complete a term.
certainly this makes citizens confident of functioning political environment.

4.If two such terms are reached and even if some political institutions (even if they are relatively weeak like Income Tax) are built with consensus, it becomes even more difficult for pakistani army to take over fundemental organs of power overtly.

5.If Pakistani politicians are confident that Army wont take over overtly, more belligerence against the army can be seen (more from minority regions like sindh)thereafter and more inner cribbing to fight over the resources with the Army.

5.Over the time Pakistani political leaders will raise the bar of confronting the ideas of security state that military has built for itself(in fact no pakistani politician likes the present setup where they have little say and limited options to earn money!)

6.If this state is reached, its only a matter of time before they confront the Army directly on policy issues (after confronting the ideas and its ideals). Yes, Pakistani Army and establishment can still assasinate some top leaders (Benazir Bhutto..) to make others fall in line but not every one can be assasinated in a sustained social democratic setup. It is here the judiciary also picks up some courage and will start ostracizing the army.

7.More populist leaders (like bhutto) will emerge and will be careful to raise the Islamism bar to accepted levels and keep harping on the need for pakistani army’s sacrifices at the budget front.

8.If this happens, a significant share of revenues will be released and thrown at development. Yes, most of it will still be eaten by Politicians and if the security is improved they will return the money in the form of investment. They first buy significant share in the media companies to improve their image and at the same time deep state’s influence on economic sectors decline.

9.Pakistan’s benefactors (US & China) cheifly threaten the army that they cannot support any industry (by assisting in imports and subsidizing exports) unless it has strong civilian component.

10. The growing literacy indicators and huge youth bulge will force pakistan state to look for markets out of its traditional ones and owing to similiar cultural roots will push for normalization of relations although anti-India rhetoric may remain sadly.(musharraf almost did this before people throw him out).

11. A turkey like solution is possible where Government guarentees no retribution from political establishment as politicians wait for strengthening their credibility and eventually when they acheive this, they will bring the Army fully under their authority.
It will be a sad Day for Rex Minors & Umairs but a Great moment for a Pakistani.

Posted by sensiblepatriot | Report as abusive

Mr Patriot writes his comments;
Let me assume from his comment that he is a sensible person. The analogy is not bad, Umair could tell us if he agres with it or not?

I hve a very simple philosophy and that if one has the education and the abilty to collec most of the information about an issue, without being influenced by qualifying commentry of others no matter how prominent they are, and do not make mistakes in ones thoughts the chances are that most people would agree with the situations and solutions.

My comments on your rationaly laid out commentry are very simple. Your mind is thinking different to that of mine and your info is not complete. Eg., “Turkey Like” solution is not speifid; if I recall this was the credo of former General Musharaf who happened to go on a staff school course in Turkey! He meant Army strictly involved with a veto power in the constitution and National security group. Things have since changed in Turkey a previousl religious centre party was elected to office and the role of army in the civil Govt. has declined. Not quiet so, Turkish Constitution has still overriding role and this the civilian Govt. had stated to amend in case of two third majority. This has not occured leaving perhaps a chance for the Govt. to go for a referendom on amendments to the Constitution.

My prognosis about Pakistan in the immediate future is less optimistic. The spectre of civil war and the breakdown of law and order are very real now!

In any case, India concerns about Pakistan are exagerated and reflects a mix psyche of fear and paranoia! Resolve the Kashmiri concerns and Indian need not worry about the covert operations from the resistance.fear anoverstated current Govt. rece in administrati

thimis statemenYour other

Posted by pakistan | Report as abusive

[...] recently, the reported (but unverified) killing of al-Qaeda-linked Pakistani militant Ilyas Kashmiri (Reuters)–often give rise to accusations that the United States is engaged in unlawful [...]

[...] saying Kashmiri had been "martyred," and declaring, "America is our enemy" (Reuters, AP, ET). A spokesman for the group Tehrik-i-Taliban Pakistan (TTP) denied Kashmiri’s death [...]

[...] But months later, Ilyas Kahsmiri was seen alive in Afghanistan. It was only a few weeks ago that the militant was reportedly killed in yet another drone [...]

[...] But months later, Ilyas Kahsmiri was seen alive in Afghanistan. It was only a few weeks ago that the militant was reportedly killed in yet another drone [...]

[...] But months later, Ilyas Kahsmiri was seen alive in Afghanistan. It was usually a few weeks ago that the belligerent was reportedly killed in nonetheless another worker [...]

[...] But months later, Ilyas Kahsmiri was seen alive in Afghanistan. It was only a few weeks ago that the militant was reportedly killed in yet another drone [...]

another Al-qaida leader killed in US operated drone attack in Pakistan
http://www.thenewstribe.com/2011/08/27/a lqaida-leader-atiyah-abdul-rehman-killed -in-pakistan/#.Tlk2uFvtXNQ
Interesting fact in the incident that death of this man announced second time

Posted by ShahidAbbasi | Report as abusive