Comments on: Ilyas Kashmiri reported killed in drone strike in Pakistan http://blogs.reuters.com/pakistan/2011/06/04/ilyas-kashmiri-reported-killed-in-drone-strike-in-pakistan/ Perspectives on Pakistan Thu, 01 Oct 2015 19:31:05 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=4.2.5 By: ShahidAbbasi http://blogs.reuters.com/pakistan/2011/06/04/ilyas-kashmiri-reported-killed-in-drone-strike-in-pakistan/comment-page-2/#comment-39409 Sat, 27 Aug 2011 18:35:18 +0000 http://blogs.reuters.com/pakistan/?p=7444#comment-39409 another Al-qaida leader killed in US operated drone attack in Pakistan
http://www.thenewstribe.com/2011/08/27/a lqaida-leader-atiyah-abdul-rehman-killed -in-pakistan/#.Tlk2uFvtXNQ
Interesting fact in the incident that death of this man announced second time

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By: pakistan http://blogs.reuters.com/pakistan/2011/06/04/ilyas-kashmiri-reported-killed-in-drone-strike-in-pakistan/comment-page-1/#comment-38735 Mon, 13 Jun 2011 12:59:29 +0000 http://blogs.reuters.com/pakistan/?p=7444#comment-38735 Mr Patriot writes his comments;
Let me assume from his comment that he is a sensible person. The analogy is not bad, Umair could tell us if he agres with it or not?

I hve a very simple philosophy and that if one has the education and the abilty to collec most of the information about an issue, without being influenced by qualifying commentry of others no matter how prominent they are, and do not make mistakes in ones thoughts the chances are that most people would agree with the situations and solutions.

My comments on your rationaly laid out commentry are very simple. Your mind is thinking different to that of mine and your info is not complete. Eg., “Turkey Like” solution is not speifid; if I recall this was the credo of former General Musharaf who happened to go on a staff school course in Turkey! He meant Army strictly involved with a veto power in the constitution and National security group. Things have since changed in Turkey a previousl religious centre party was elected to office and the role of army in the civil Govt. has declined. Not quiet so, Turkish Constitution has still overriding role and this the civilian Govt. had stated to amend in case of two third majority. This has not occured leaving perhaps a chance for the Govt. to go for a referendom on amendments to the Constitution.

My prognosis about Pakistan in the immediate future is less optimistic. The spectre of civil war and the breakdown of law and order are very real now!

In any case, India concerns about Pakistan are exagerated and reflects a mix psyche of fear and paranoia! Resolve the Kashmiri concerns and Indian need not worry about the covert operations from the resistance.fear anoverstated current Govt. rece in administrati

thimis statemenYour other

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By: sensiblepatriot http://blogs.reuters.com/pakistan/2011/06/04/ilyas-kashmiri-reported-killed-in-drone-strike-in-pakistan/comment-page-1/#comment-38716 Sun, 12 Jun 2011 15:10:57 +0000 http://blogs.reuters.com/pakistan/?p=7444#comment-38716 Lets look at most optimistic scenario for pakistan and it may play out something like this.

1.No matter what people say, Some of the military experts believe an end of war in the Af-Pak region will actually do good for the pakistan’s economy. Experts believe that the intangible losses due to War on Terror has ruined pakistan’s economy (internal displacement and radicalization) more than the Aid support which it recieved (anyways most of this aid was used to buy arms against India- remember the kerry lugar bill controversy blown in the media by military’s lackeys).

2.Somehow even I believe that an end to war may improve Pakistan’s economy in the short term as military need not engage the terrorists as americans will not press them for it. Terrorists may still blow up some buildings but they miss the fundemental narrative that pak state is in cahoots with America and so they too will come under extreme pressure to restrict their activities. Believe me even terrorists depend upon the moral strength of their cause!

3.But socializing the growth in pakistan is a challenge due to overarching factors of feudalism and extremist culture who believe that a more secular education and secular institutions will lead to their demise. In short to improve the economic situation the security must be improved and to a sustainable security environment needs improvement in macro economic indicators. Overall something dramatic must happen to come out of this vicious cycle and I believe cyril almeida of dawn is correct in saying that just ensuring a full term for PPP by Zardari and ensuring that the people vote him out of power will be a dramatic development in pakistan’s historical narrative and will be the first time a government is allowed to complete a term.
certainly this makes citizens confident of functioning political environment.

4.If two such terms are reached and even if some political institutions (even if they are relatively weeak like Income Tax) are built with consensus, it becomes even more difficult for pakistani army to take over fundemental organs of power overtly.

5.If Pakistani politicians are confident that Army wont take over overtly, more belligerence against the army can be seen (more from minority regions like sindh)thereafter and more inner cribbing to fight over the resources with the Army.

5.Over the time Pakistani political leaders will raise the bar of confronting the ideas of security state that military has built for itself(in fact no pakistani politician likes the present setup where they have little say and limited options to earn money!)

6.If this state is reached, its only a matter of time before they confront the Army directly on policy issues (after confronting the ideas and its ideals). Yes, Pakistani Army and establishment can still assasinate some top leaders (Benazir Bhutto..) to make others fall in line but not every one can be assasinated in a sustained social democratic setup. It is here the judiciary also picks up some courage and will start ostracizing the army.

7.More populist leaders (like bhutto) will emerge and will be careful to raise the Islamism bar to accepted levels and keep harping on the need for pakistani army’s sacrifices at the budget front.

8.If this happens, a significant share of revenues will be released and thrown at development. Yes, most of it will still be eaten by Politicians and if the security is improved they will return the money in the form of investment. They first buy significant share in the media companies to improve their image and at the same time deep state’s influence on economic sectors decline.

9.Pakistan’s benefactors (US & China) cheifly threaten the army that they cannot support any industry (by assisting in imports and subsidizing exports) unless it has strong civilian component.

10. The growing literacy indicators and huge youth bulge will force pakistan state to look for markets out of its traditional ones and owing to similiar cultural roots will push for normalization of relations although anti-India rhetoric may remain sadly.(musharraf almost did this before people throw him out).

11. A turkey like solution is possible where Government guarentees no retribution from political establishment as politicians wait for strengthening their credibility and eventually when they acheive this, they will bring the Army fully under their authority.
It will be a sad Day for Rex Minors & Umairs but a Great moment for a Pakistani.

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By: sensiblepatriot http://blogs.reuters.com/pakistan/2011/06/04/ilyas-kashmiri-reported-killed-in-drone-strike-in-pakistan/comment-page-1/#comment-38713 Sun, 12 Jun 2011 11:27:17 +0000 http://blogs.reuters.com/pakistan/?p=7444#comment-38713 sorry, Ganesh. It should have been Fanned, words got mixed up trying to say India army attempted to douse the fires. Thanks for identifying :-)

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By: prasadgc http://blogs.reuters.com/pakistan/2011/06/04/ilyas-kashmiri-reported-killed-in-drone-strike-in-pakistan/comment-page-1/#comment-38712 Sun, 12 Jun 2011 11:12:41 +0000 http://blogs.reuters.com/pakistan/?p=7444#comment-38712 sensiblepatriot said:

> In fact, Indian army faced similiar insults in trying to counter the insurgency in kashmir when pakistan doused the flames and watched with glee

That should be “FANNED the flames”. To douse is to put out.

Regards,
Ganesh Prasad

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By: sensiblepatriot http://blogs.reuters.com/pakistan/2011/06/04/ilyas-kashmiri-reported-killed-in-drone-strike-in-pakistan/comment-page-1/#comment-38706 Sat, 11 Jun 2011 17:46:16 +0000 http://blogs.reuters.com/pakistan/?p=7444#comment-38706 If one believes this is an inflecttion point and Pakistan “will” have to make a decision now (akin to what it had to do after the events of 9/11), Unfortunately there is still more brinkmapship that pakistani Army can display.
Knowing fully that Americans are planning to cease all the combat operations by 2014 and wrap most of their military machine, even though some of regiments may still be present in the foreseeable future. Some elemets (decisive ones) in Pakistan Army is checking the Operations against the rebels for reason below.

1.Firstly once Aid dries up or becomes more targetted(to borrow the words from keith), Pakistan’s Army, addicted to additional money will have to depend on the lumpen elements and becomes a major drug exporter and smuggling mafia by itself. Not surprisingly it is here dawood fits in his double role as India baiter and mascot for the army as major drug peddler.
2.Withe Aid drying up, (2.5billion$ is big money for 6.7 Billion$ budgeted army), Pakistan can only fund Afghan Taliban with drug and poppy industry. They would do anything to distabilize Afghan state lest they think of durand line and reclaiming their border.
3.Few people in the world know that Pakistan is the most drug addicted country as percentage of population and army needs this social evil to exist for the fear that overcoming drug addition will bring more youth towards dissent against establishment.Aljazeera itself points out this worrying trend.
http://english.aljazeera.net/news/asia/2 010/01/201011283214750225.html
4.Owing to enoromous pressure from US (more so after the headley case currently in motion in chicago), pakistan will restrict the budget for the rogue ISI if not the Army. ISI will have to depend on drug mafias and it is here that it cannot take on the extremists head on.
5. With the loss of Aid, Pak Army demands more money from exchequer and it will have to be met by cutting funds where they are most required (education,health etc) and with weak political capacity to take on oragnized unions. Pakistan’s most urgent sectors may become casuality.
6. In my opinion there is no straight thing as becoming failed state in one go, but a slow,painful and a terminal decline of Authority and institions in pakistan makes the journey closer and closer and in the context of pakistan, the definition of pakistan as failed state will look more and more apparent.
I believe there is still time, if they make one last stand, will they?

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By: sensiblepatriot http://blogs.reuters.com/pakistan/2011/06/04/ilyas-kashmiri-reported-killed-in-drone-strike-in-pakistan/comment-page-1/#comment-38705 Sat, 11 Jun 2011 17:08:52 +0000 http://blogs.reuters.com/pakistan/?p=7444#comment-38705 I was about to post the same! My heart bled to death after seeing the video of a teenager shot dead brutally by the Army. I would have condemned it even if Indian Army perpetrated such horrible crime on any Indian.
If some on the forum atleast now, stop presenting the army as some angels of the God, would let us see the objective side of what army had become.

http://www.dawn.com/2011/06/11/a-country -left-to-bleed.html

To be honest, Never before, the Pakistani army is under this extreme pressure only to be superseded before by events after 1971 war.Pakistan army out of desperation to counter their dwindlinng moral and political authority has been going all out against anyone who shows little dissent and more errors are likely in their state of mind. Devoid of any political institutions to control the Pak Army, more voilence and disenchantment with the country’s establishment is instore for them in the future. With urgent necessisity to unite the army to counter the insurgency raging not only in northern territories but also in heart of punjab, Pakistan army seems to have no clue and lies in moral shambles as significant members of the armed forces are either sympathetic or too scared to taken on rebels(how could they, if the entire country is getting radicalised on account of War on Terror). Would they atleast study how their enemy no 1 dealt with such calamity.

In fact, Indian army faced similiar insults in trying to counter the insurgency in kashmir when pakistan doused the flames and watched with glee, when backlash against Indian Army fuelling even more voilence from the Armed forces.

Pakistan was watching this with glee and world was pointing its fingers on India.
Now this is the classic example of falling in the graves which you dig for others. Old wisdom seems to have caught pakistan in action if not their mental nerves.
While we Indians are watching all this in horror than satisfaction that atlast pakistan is reaping what it sowed, India had atleast political, executive and judicial institutions to correct course, which pakistan have little or no such institutions, it interesting how it unfolds.
With lack of unity on Action, Even the Pakistan Army has no gumption to take on the radicalised edifice of the pakistani state. I am not sure whether their deep state has realized it or not that, Pakistan’s terror machine is in autopilot mode now and will not stop until either it completely takes down the country with it or is taken head on by the saner elements in pakistan.
AS few have noted here that, once Americans leave and aid dries up for the Army, it becomes more dependent on the rebels and terrorists for smuggling of drugs and weapons and that it will become a perpetual hostage to druglords and lumpen elements is definite,while at the same time demanding even more money from the exchequer.
If I had been a average upper middle class pakistani, I would have either lived in my own delusions or left the country and critized her vehemently for her actions.
Interestingly thats what most of the pakistanis seem to be doing here!

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By: KPSingh01 http://blogs.reuters.com/pakistan/2011/06/04/ilyas-kashmiri-reported-killed-in-drone-strike-in-pakistan/comment-page-1/#comment-38702 Sat, 11 Jun 2011 14:33:53 +0000 http://blogs.reuters.com/pakistan/?p=7444#comment-38702 Those who shed crocodile tears for Indian brutality/rape/torture etc in Kashmir, should take a look at how they deal with ordinary people in the land of milk and honey:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/jun  /11/pakistan-sarfaraz-shah-shooting

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By: buntyj http://blogs.reuters.com/pakistan/2011/06/04/ilyas-kashmiri-reported-killed-in-drone-strike-in-pakistan/comment-page-1/#comment-38701 Sat, 11 Jun 2011 08:51:58 +0000 http://blogs.reuters.com/pakistan/?p=7444#comment-38701 @netizen
while i agree with the underlying point i believe you were trying to make i do not believe your language is appropriate. Myra’s sympathies are no doubt clear but they do not call for abuse or unnecessary comments and i do not believe its appropriate to use terms derogatory to any religion. Also, Islam is different from Islamism or jihad despite the best efforts of both many muslims today as well as muslim baiters to narrow the differences. while india has made its share of errors and there are facts that can be cited against us i would appeal to my fellow indian commentators to use reason and appropriate language to clearly rebut the stated or implicit allegations or errors and to recall that since the facts are more with us than against us a reasoned dialogue is the one we can most easily ‘win’.

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By: netizen http://blogs.reuters.com/pakistan/2011/06/04/ilyas-kashmiri-reported-killed-in-drone-strike-in-pakistan/comment-page-1/#comment-38694 Thu, 09 Jun 2011 12:51:03 +0000 http://blogs.reuters.com/pakistan/?p=7444#comment-38694 I didn’t read Musharaff piece (trash), KP’s summary is good enough. You have to remember Pakistan ideology which is basically Islamosupremacist, Islamifascist hate ideology was erected on victimhood narrative. Jinnahism was just that. Consistently searching for and claiming victimhood to justify aggression and confrontation.

All Pakistanis, Myra included, subscribe to this supremacist ideology.

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