Pakistan: Now or Never?
Perspectives on Pakistan
Taliban talks: the new mirage in Afghanistan
Email 
Print
Afghan President Hamid Karzai has just said in public what many have been saying for months in private, that the United States is holding talks with the Taliban to try to reach a settlement to the decade-long war in Afghanistan. “Peace talks are going on with the Taliban. The foreign military and especially the United States itself is going ahead with these negotiations,” he said in a speech in Kabul.
We have been hearing reports about these talks for months. In the climate of disinformation that threads through the Afghan war, it is hard to say exactly when they started, but I first heard last November that the Americans had begun direct talks with representatives of the Taliban and if that was correct, they must have begun some time before that.
Such direct talks have long been promoted by many Afghan experts as a necessary but not sufficient condition for a political settlement. While western countries have argued that political reconciliation must be Afghan-led, the Americans are the power-brokers, and unlike the administration in Kabul, the only ones who have the authority to deliver on any concessions agreed in the negotiations.
And the United States has also shifted its position on the Taliban — effectively admitting that the movement can be treated separately from al Qaeda by convincing the U.N. Security Council to split its sanctions list imposing asset freezes and travel restrictions into two.
All that said, there is a danger that the U.S. Taliban talks become the new mirage in Afghanistan by suggesting that a political settlement is on the horizon if only the current strategy is maintained. According to senior diplomats involved in international discussions on Afghanistan, the talks have yet to gain any serious traction. One diplomat said the two sides were still “gauging each other’s temperature”; another said that, “there are no serious load-bearing talks going on.”
And despite U.S. insistence that its military campaign in Afghanistan is — to use its favourite phrases - “turning the corner” or “gaining momentum” – one diplomat suggested that the Taliban’s ambitions were still as high as they had been before Washington sent an extra 30,000 troops.
Unlike the role sketched out for them by western governments in which they would folded into a broader political process, he said the Taliban were still looking for a serious stake in power. Among their ambitions would be for Taliban leader Mullah Mohammed Omar to be rehabilitated as “Amir ul-Mu’mineen”, or supreme leader of the faithful, even if not directly running the government - an idea talked about back in early 2010.
A report by Antonio Giustozzi and Christoph Reuter published by the Afghan Analysts Network backs up that assertion that the Taliban’s ambitions remain high. (the full pdf report is here). The report focuses on inroads made by the Taliban in the Afghan north – well beyond their Pashtun heartland in the south.
It argues that the Taliban had been effective in opening their ranks to non-Pashtuns in the north, bringing in ethnic groups like Uzbeks and Tajiks who were traditionally hostile to the Islamist movement when they ruled Afghanistan from 1996-2001.
“The Taliban appear to have a clear strategy aimed at destabilising northern Afghanistan. Moving north, and thereby covering non-Pashtun areas, strengthens their claim to be the legitimate government of Afghanistan and to be fighting for the whole country, not just for an ethnic group or a specific region. The Taliban are not only fighting the Afghan government – they are seeking to replace it with their own administration. This, they do with astonishing effectiveness,” the report says.
The United States is hoping to convince Pakistan to lean on the Taliban, which it says is based in and around the town of Quetta in Baluchistan, to take part in serious negotiations. It also wants the Pakistan Army to push further into the tribal areas bordering eastern Afghanistan to eliminate sanctuaries used both by Afghan insurgents and foreign fighters, including al Qaeda.
Convincing Pakistan to work with the United States on either or both of these objectives has become more difficult after the souring of relations which followed the May 2 raid by U.S. forces who found and killed Osama bin Laden in the Pakistani town of Abbottabad. But even assuming the two countries manage to repair relations – and both have an interest in a stable Afghanistan – there is another problem.
Pakistan has long complained that even if it were to drive insurgents out of the tribal areas, they would find refuge in eastern Afghanistan, leaving it vulnerable to counter-attack unless the United States military shored up its own presence there.
A report by Gilles Dorronsoro (pdf) paints a gloomy picture of eastern Afghanistan — where U.S. troops have been thinned out in order to allow them to concentrate on population centres in the south. U.S.-led troops in southern Afghanistan, he argues, are fighting the same Taliban that it sees as having a role in a political settlement, while allowing more aggressive players – like the Haqqani network, along with elements from al Qaeda and the Pakistani militant gorup Lashkar-e-Taiba – to thrive in eastern Afghanistan.
“Despite a lack of U.S. interest in these (eastern) regions, their strategic importance is infinitely greater than that of Helmand or even Kandahar.The importance of the Eastern Triangle is due to its location between the capital and the Pakistani insurgent sanctuaries, and its importance in facilitating the passage of insurgents from Pakistan.”
Dorronsoro also notes that many of these eastern Afghan border areas follow a Salafist tradition of Islam – as distinct from the Deobandism followed by the Taliban – giving them an ideological affinity with Salafist groups like al Qaeda and the Lashkar-e-Taiba, and raising the scope for them to become a new sanctuary for international jihadis.
“The final aspect of the insurgency’s actions in the east is the presence of transnational jihadist groups in the border regions. Al Qaeda, in particular, has returned to Afghanistan and is cooperating with the Taliban on individual operations … Lashkar-e-Taiba has long been present in Nuristan and Kunar and,less obviously, in Nangarhar Province, in the district of Khogiani. In any case, the area now represents a rather secure sanctuary capable of welcoming important leaders in the future, which would be a symbolic coup,” he writes.
To sum all that up, despite the intensive counter-insurgency campaign in the Taliban’s heartland in the south, the movement’s demands for political power remain high. The Taliban is increasing its presence in the north. And in the east, international jihadis are carving out a new sanctuary, expanding out from their original bases in the tribal areas of Pakistan. If all those reports prove to be correct, or even some of them, you could argue that the position of the United States and its allies in Afghanistan is getting worse, rather than better, as it prepares to start gradually withdrawing troops.
I first wrote in early 2009 about how regional experts were saying the United States should hold negotiations with the Taliban to reach a political settlement. Many others must have done so before that. Now that the United States has embarked on those talks, rather than asking whether they offer a way out of the war, perhaps we also need to ask another less palatable question. Have they left it too late?
Comments RSSPost Your Comment
-
Author Profile
-
War is expensive to conduct, especially when it is run thousands of miles away from home. The logistics involved is very costly. I think all parties involved are tired. The only thing none of us know is who took the initiative for a settlement talk – the US or the Taliban. If the US offered the hand to the Taliban, it would be declared as victory by the rodents hiding underground in this region. If on the other hand, the Taliban had reached out to the US, then it means they have no more energy left but to give up the fight. Ultimately it does not matter who made the first move.
None of us know what the terms and conditions of the talk are. In general the Taliban has been demanding complete withdrawal of all foreign forces from Afghanistan as a pre-condition. If they are talking, it means this precondition has been waived. It also means that the US might get to keep a small force in Afghanistan beyond 2014. If the US leaves entirely, there is more than fifty percent chance of the Taliban and the Northern Alliance to resume the old tug of war between them. There are lot of scores that remain to be settled.
Once a settlement is reached and the US halts its war in the region, it will be interesting to see what the radical groups inside Pakistan will do. LeT has grown bigger than before and it definitely will not want a neutral or peaceful Afghanistan. It would want war hardened Afghans in its service to resume its offensive in Kashmir.
And it will be interesting to see what the US will do with Pakistan. Because leaving Pakistan to its own elements is a big mistake. Restraints will have to be placed so that Pakistan’s “rogue elements” in the military and ISI do not start the old game all over again. If Pakistan can be controlled and constrained, Afghanistan definitely has a chance to go towards normalcy. Pakistan should be forced to give up its hostility towards India and seek peace in the region. Stringent conditions must be added for any foreign aid to Pakistan so that its military does not get into evil acts similar to what it had pursued in the past.
Afghanistan settlement relies heavily in making sure Pakistan is contained. Otherwise, the US might be forced to come back to this region and much more ferociously this time.
@Myra
a good write as usual of the breaking news in UNo1
A smoke screen and the repeat of old and boring subject. Talibans or the Pashtoons do not negotiate, never have in their history, their man is always responsible for foreign contacts. Hamid Karzai belongs to the Taliban tribes, an influential and powerful, but dependent on other tribes in the south. Hamid Karzai has been negtiating with the USA and supporting their demand for unconditional departure, while simultaneously expanding their hold on the non Pashtoon territory. You are the first journalist to bring it out on paper. The Americans have a very limited time span to act. The talibans or Pashtoons do not look favourable to loosers. Pakistan is weaker than ever before in their history a la Pashtoons in their tribal territory and Afghanistan.
Pakistan under Kyani and Zardari are now experiencing the destabilisation of the entire region as well as facing the spectre of a civil war and therefore disruption in supplies of water and alcohal to the GI’s in this hot summer.
Rex Minor
More news. Pakistan has tipped off militants again.
http://politics.newsvine.com/_news/2011/ 06/18/6889644-pakistanis-tip-off-militan ts-at-bomb-building-plants-#comments
Their excuse is that the need to seek permission from the tribal elders before sending in troops (LOL!). These guys can come up excuses of all kinds.
Read the comments from Americans in that article. Things have changed.
Author,
Your own country is a much (much) bigger problem to the world than Afghanistan which is a minor problem. No point in saying after May 2nd it has become more difficult.
Al-Qeda boss was found right next to your military academy. No one should be surprised if Zawahiri is found behind the Kitchen cabinet in Kayani’s house.
1. i agree with the title, theres no way taliban will let the us continue to have any role in afghanistan and will demand total withdrawal
2. according to the nation editorial today they claim that as per david ignatius usa is about to capitlate to pakistani demands on afghanistan n kashmir
ps- kayani is reported to have told the visiting german minister that while pakistan would like a stable afghanistan it cant give up or compromise its strategic interests (depth, haqqanis, afghan taliban, etc)
With no intention to digress, Here is an interesting article.
http://www.dawn.com/2011/06/19/smokers-c orner-young-turks-to-the-rescue.html
I wish the Author should also travel to India. He doesn’t need to write an article, he just needs to change Turkey with India in the above article and send to Dawn for reprinting it!!
Fools are the leaders of the Nations, who reckon that they can commit aggression against the Nation of Pashtoons or Germans, and later return to thei land and live in triumph and peace. American must roll back everything they have committed against Afghanistan which was illegal and immoral in international relations.
Rex Minor
Ps
Mr Patriot your quoting Mr Paracha article in Dawn belittles your judgement of this pygmy 5th columnist lay journalist of Pakistan, with te name Parachi. He has not even recognised that today’s Turkey is ruled by the most powerful Islamic political party of our times and is likely to succeed in reforming the current constitution in a coming referendum, the so called secular one. The intellectual jugglary of lay Pakistani
journalss do not even know that all european constitutions are based on and reflect the values of Ibrahimic religions. Secularism in Europe simply means that the church and the State are separate, each responsible for their domains.
@Mr Patriot
India is a far better secular country today than Turkey or other muslim countries. Your quotation is accurate, considering that Hinduism now encompases Atheism and agnostic jews and christians in its midst, perhaps indian muslims as well one day? This is no different from the vision of Islam that one day the entire world would bow to the will of God almighty the creator of the Universe.
Rex Minor
Here is a very sensible article by a Pakistani journalist. Thick skulls must read this and realize how they have been misled.
http://www.dawn.com/2011/06/20/for-pakis tan-time-to-try-india-as-a-friend.html
If Pakistan does not seek peace with its neighbors sincerely, nothing will settle down in this region.
From one American to the world we call AFPAK,
I’m going home. I don’t care about your tribal differences, your attraction to violent philosophers, or lack of democratic values. I’m going home. You’re left to deal with each other. But the next time you send your crazy uncles over here to atone for some symbollic affront to your extreme religous, I’ll be back. Your understanding of violence will vaporize with YOUR misunderstanding of why we came into your backyard in the first place. You seem to be a region of tribes facing international norms well beyond a generation or two of change on your part. Because you refuse to keep your trouble local, we’ll be back. Change, martyr or just stay home. I’ll try to do the same.
Mr. pHenry,
I wish your policy makers, politicians, strategic planners and the Pentagon/CIA thought along the same lines as you do – stay where you are and others stay where they are. What you are seeing is the result of decades of manipulative measures taken by your successive governments that has messed this place up beyond recognition. They are biting you because your people trained them to bite. Wish you go home and campaign to keep your government focused on domestic issues and stop messing with the rest of the world. Cold war is over.
Mr.KPS in gh01, We are probably both half right. But how many times has the USA inherited someone else’s mess. The cold war will never be “over”. Russia pushed weak Europe around until we had to step in. They retreated under the weight of financial ruin, not just muscle. Oil has brought them roaring back. Fundamental Islam started pushing ME countries around in the ’70s. How are you going to get them to stay home? Or do you even want them? I thought the Arab spring would free us to come home while you guys settled your own problems. I suspect if every adult voted in each ME country you could do-it-yourself. But I also suspect some freely elected ME government will eventually conclude that peace without Palestine is impossible. I can get over Japan, Germany and Italy, the “cold war” and Russia. Maybe you guys can get Jakob, Jesus and Mohommed’s Jerusalem to a Vatican City neutral. It would help if Canaan in general suffered equally. Should Syria, Lebanon, Jordan, Saudia Arabia, Iran, Iraq or Egypt “get over” anything? Rightly or wrongly we in America will defend Israel and oil supplies equally. I hope we get over it all and have a quiet life teaching our grandkids how we finally remembered we are all cousins.
I’ll be back.
I thought “I’ll be back” was a quote from The Terminator, not from The Matrix
.
Regards,
Ganesh Prasad
Meh,
It’ll be some weird accomodation with disparate Taliban groups. Some will get political positions. Some will get money. Many will get nothing.
The main impact of this is what comes next. I’m fairly sure there’ll be lots of gloating in Pakistan and among the Taliban about the USA “losing”.
In reality, pulling out of Afghanistan, opens up strategic options that the US and the rest of the West never had. They are no longer responsible for the money pit that is Afghanistan. They can attack Pakistan’s tribal areas with more impunity. And they can treat Pakistan (and label it) as a hostile party.
I will not be surprised at all if Pakistan ends up on the list of state sponsors of terrorism in 5 years. It’s bound to happen because the PA just won’t be able to resist pulling another 1989 again and re-directing some Afghan veterans into India, or out West. Eventually, they’ll kill one to many Westerners and the governments in this part of the world will come under enormous pressure to sever ties with Pakistan. Aid will get cut, sanctions will come on, voters in international forums (UN, IMF) will go the other way.
We can hope that reasonable accomodation can be reached. And I’m sure something can be worked out with the various Taliban groups. But I’m not so sure about the direction Pakistan is heading.
Pakistan arrests brigadier over Islamist ties
http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/06/2 1/us-pakistan-brigadier-idUSTRE75K3SM201 10621
A senior USA congressman asks the USA secretary of defence and I quote; For how long the USA should be providing aid to Pakistan if its Govt. tells us lies all the time. The secretary of Defence replies that Govts. tells lies to other Govts. and that is how the business is done,end of quote.
The current USA Govt. is now regarded the leading liar in the west. The congressmen first deny their extra marital sex affairs and then come out and declare that they had lied. The USA admin. foreign policy is based on lies and therefore people with a lawyer profession are prefered to work in the state dept.
Rex Minor
http://www.vanityfair.com/politics/featu res/2011/07/osama-bin-laden-201107
When you have guys like Christoper Hitchens being this vocal about Pakistan, you know the public mindset about Pakistan in the USA is changing.
The piece, has been criticized by the likes of Christine Fair:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/c-christin e-fair/the-road-from-abbottabad-_b_88125 6.html
But I daresay that Hitchens is probably starting to reflect common sentiment.
@Rex Minor
Here are your great Pashtun warriors:
http://www.csmonitor.com/World/Asia-Sout h-Central/2011/0622/Are-Pakistan-s-Talib an-using-children-as-weapons
And forensics have also shown that a large number of suicide bombers tend to be children with cognitive defects (retardation, Downes syndrome, etc.).
@Keithz: The article is indeed quite scathing. It’s hard to believe that it was penned by Hitchens.
@Mortal
Now Hitchens is a bit unfair and takes license with some facts (as pointed out by Fair). And he is a die-hard atheist, so overtly religious societies and countries are particularly grating to him.
But here’s the thing, you have magazines like Vanity Fair publishing huge pieces critical of Pakistan, by authors who tend to have slightly more than tangential knowledge of Pakistan. That to me, says that Pakistan is coming into the common discourse (just like Afghanistan), except it’s not in a good way.
For example, contrast this with India. Now as much as the Indian government (or even some Indians) would like to hide the crushing poverty that persists there, most people around the world are fully aware of it. But they are also aware of its tremendous economic growth, it’s growing cultural self-awareness (Bollywood is starting to become as much of a soft power tool as Hollywood), and so on. So outsiders are starting to see India in all its shades, good and bad.
However, the stream of negativity from Pakistan is constant (just type Pakistan into Google News). The only good news story that ever seems to come from Pakistan has to do with cricket. And even that’s not a daily occurrence.
Rex:”considering that Hinduism now encompases Atheism and agnostic jews and christians in its midst, perhaps indian muslims as well one day”.
Few would know that, Indian culture had almost made muslims part of their DNA with Islam coalesced to Indian culture for more than 1000 years. It had affected changes in the attitudes of Hindus (both positive and negative) and gave a new tranformative culture. It itself got affected from Middle eastern religion to growing sufi pigmentations in entire south Asia.
Just before the advent of the political Islam that begun with the defeat of the mughal empire by the british and official dishonouring of the same (It was in terminal decline for 2 centuries which begun with Aurengzeb), Muslims have slowly been absorbed into hindu society but as a distinct caste group.
Even today muslims in rural areas are so indistinguishable (Muslim forward castes like khans, Muslim OBC’s like darjee(tailors), and dalit muslims)with other socio-cultural groups in Hinduism that any attempt to see them as different is prone to disaster (A disaster which we already did). Muslims shared their joys and sorrows with hindu neighbours, celebrated common festivals when children of both religions flew kites in basanth, took refuge in Godmen’s (Baba’s) words for having children, shared the sorrow of being oppressed by feudal classes both Hindu and Muslim.
A small section of Muslim Middle classes working as employees and clerks under Muslim kings of british India were scared that once India becomes Independent, it would resort to repression of muslims, the people who were dominant in all political positions collecting taxes, passing judgements and punishments to the public. This small section played to the tunes of british empire which eventually culminated into partition based on religion.
When some people say Muslims have to be amalgamated into Indian society, it pains me when I think about this because after successful integration which lasted about 1000 years it was simply undone due to partition and we need to begin that again.
Not that I am man living in history, but hope people will appreciate the struggle Indian culture had undertaken when they Integrated vastly different culture but still due to imperial powers resulted in a state which is now back to square one.
@Mr Patriot
I have no qualms with your comments, am even getting the sense we are always talking about one people of different faiths, living in two sovereign countries having mostly common problems but different prioraties and future outlooks. Every country in the world has problems within its borders and those in the neighbouring land.
Both India and Pakistan in my opinion must curb the use of its military against their citizens, and undertake genuine reforms since the current miliary represents and has the colonial structure. The use of words such as insurgents and radicals, terrorists and suicide bombers is a western construct, not a reality.
We should also be aware that any unity and nearness, economic cooperation or joint energy projects can only take place if the people of the two countries so wish. After the ww2 war there has been a desire to put an end to the hostilities and this took a hell of lotof time and efforts from the civil societies to engage with one another for reconciliation. My observation on this and several other blogs is that this hope is not very near. Do they represent the majority, I have not the slightest clue.
I have always regarded India and Pakistan, the countries of future and once the stability is restored in the region, there is no reason why a vision of integrating them into a union similar to the one which has emerged in Europe after the end of the cold war. Mind you we have lots of difficulties, a common currency but independent economies. Europe cannot exclude Russia from the Union and has USA objection for very close Union with Russia, whereas the UK always comes up with special relations with the USA. Not to forget that the Queen of England is still the head of state of Australia and Canada.
We have seen how a rag tag force of so called Afghan talibans have got the world power on the run after a period of ten years persistent resistance. Pakistan army, on the other hand has started asking permission from the individual tribal chiefs for any intrusion, but not given up the role of playing an under dog role for the USA. The Pakistan talibans are the bad boys now and how long this conflict is going to spread and worsen, it is very difficult to forecast a peaceful closure?
Rex Minor
@keithZ
I do not mean to be rude. But usualy I do not feel comfortable with bloggers who have a preset mind about a people or a country based on prejudice, not based on history or any knowledge or even an effort to acquire a knowledge, other than by scanning newspapers for a piece of dirt to fit onto ones collage of degraded philosophy.
Besides, your statement of having a military background, reminded me that such category of people loose x percent of the y material which is contained in the upper chamber of the brain during their hard training marching up and down on mataled ground with their heavy boots. Therefore, while they make excellent soldiers to obey any orders given from the superiors, their use in the civil arena is very limited and certainly not very free in independent thinking.
What is the difference between a suicide commando of the army and a suicide commando of the resistance. About childrenad woma cliche, the world has had enough from the zionists media of this world.
Even the so called Alexander the great was intelligent enough to take a muntaneous route by passing the main route where tribal snipers on both side of the valley can annihlate the entire army. The Alex route today is used by the smugglers peddling semi precious stones to Peshawar and taking back the supply of tea and sugar.
On a more serious note, one can learn a lot from Sensible Patriot, who is mostly coming out with serious stuff, not larifari.
Rex Minor
@Rex Minor
You don’t mean to be rude but you unfailingly so. You are also extremely racist (against Blacks, Jews, Indians, etc.) and a racial supremacist (with respect to Pashtuns).
You suggest that I’m a single-minded automaton simply because you know my profession? Who the hell are you to make the suggestion? You don’t know me. You don’t know my personal history.
How arrogant of you to assume that mere training displaces the concept of free will and independent thought. This is what you think of soldiers? That they are robots? Perhaps where you live. But we don’t have conscripts in my country. That is certainly not how I was trained (perhaps someday you’ll understand the concept of a lawful order), and certainly not how I lead personnel under my command (if you ever have to resort to mere rank authority you have failed as a leader).
It is utterly disgusting too that you draw parallels beteween suicide bombers and soldiers. There is simply no parallel. A soldier goes out on a mission with a desire to return home, with a sincere wish to minimize harm to all but the enemy, and with a genuine compulsion to help the innocent. Yet, you draw moral equivalency to people who would kidnap 10 year old girls and attempt to forcefully employ them as murderers while simultaneously bringing them their own demise? I don’t even have words to describe such a disgusting and utterly contemptible attempt at moral equivalency. The only people I could think of, worthy of such mental gymnastics, would be the Nazis.
As for talking history. Let’s just say that I have very strong familial ties to the sub-continent. I was born there and raised nearby. So don’t go thinking that I don’t know the history of the region. The only reason I won’t reveal more of myself is because bigots like yourself see every opinion through a racially tinged lens.
@Myra
The above is exactly why I don’t frequent these blogs as much (even though you write some excellent pieces). What’s the point when you tolerate outright racism that violates Reuters own codes on here.
You tolerate the likes of Rex Minor who not only propounds racist and racial supremacist viewpoints but actually takes pride in them. He thinks it’s okay to say so as long as he precedes it with, “I don’t mean to be rude…” And you don’t erase comments or links to rupeenews anymore despite that website offering up content (Jewish blood libel for instance) that would violate hate speech laws in most countries (including my own).
It’s one thing to be open to different viewpoints (and we have some solid discussions with vigorously defended viewpoints here) and quite another to give every racist and bigot a platform from which to spew hate.
You know quite well how other media forums would treat the two offenders I have named above. But yet you refuse even the slightest bit of censure (like deleting their offending posts)? I am tempted to conclude that you tolerate or share their racist viewpoints.
You tolerate the likes of Rex Minor
Posted by kEiThZ
=
I disagree with you here. She does not “tolerate” the Islamofascist minor. She subsribes to most pro-jihad, Islamist aggression on non-muslims. Of course she is doing this from the liberty and comfort offered by the non-muslim societies.
She is blatantly hostile to Indians, and concerns of Indians. On repeated challenging in last 3 years, she would take pro-terrorist, pro-jihad positions or simply not respond to Indians as she has been doing lately.
One thing she hasn’t tolerated in the past is Indians like me pointing out her pro-jihad, pro-terrorist view points.
Leftist extremists enjoying the freedoms, free speech offered by non-muslim societies in the West and India support Islamic jihad and terrorism. Nothing new here.
Minor mullah is best ignored as advised by KPS and GP.
Rex,
I am not calling you a pakistani,if I ever did, I apologise to you.I was only perhaps addressing people with views similiar to Average pakistanis. My intention was no way to paint you with the same brush.
Rex, With all your Understanding about history, I fail to understand you in some aspects. Your support for pushtoons seems like an oddity to me, or I was unable to understand clearly what you were saying.
1.Do you say pushtoons are greatest fighters based on history, if so Roman Empire was greatest in its day who were overthrown by german tribes who themselves were defeated by tribes of other ethnicity.
2.Is it because of cultural superiority that they defeat foreigners, If so Vietnames kong were also far greater fighters in the forests, wouldn’t it be because of the local advantage that insurgents have over foreign forces.
3.Do you say they draw their strength from Islam and regimented order created by talibanized army.Or is it because a nation state cannot be formed out of them that any country however powerful cannot restore order there.
4.Are they destined to be savages killing foreigners when the foreigners invade (owing to terrorism) and warring and killing among themselves when foreigners retreat. Or is it because a dangerous and diabolical Islamic strain has been perpetuated among the population who just 50 years ago were more civilized than feudalistic punjabis.
5.Are they destined to be socially backward repressing the woman and minorities in particular (harara’s etc) and cannot be taught civility (or western atheism & secularism), or is it that world has played power politics in the region owing to its strategic location and as kpsingh01 once said, “It has become a road of invasion for invading armies”, which always competed in controlling afghanistan and never allowed civility to prevail.
6.What the world must do if countries like pakistan uses them as training centres for their proxy wars with India and considers these lands as strategic depth and assumes a strong afghanistan is automatically not in the best interests of pakistan, and what must be done if one more attack is found to have its source in Afghanistan.
I have read lot of your posts but for some of the statements that you put regarding pushtoons which resembles your strong convictions, I found not much reasoning for you strong belief in their invincibility.
Would you care to explain.
sensiblepatriot,
There is no use asking someone why he or she keeps claiming something superior about their community. This guy to whom you have posed all the questions is most likely a Pashtun of Pakistani origin. They do not grow up learning history through proper channels. Most of it is bravado spread around by relatives and fellow citizens, giving them a mythical sense of infallibility. I have seen people like this in my own community. No matter how much you tell them that all societies have had their moments of upper hand and fall, they keep parroting the same blind beliefs that have filled their heads.
There is a stark difference between Pashtuns and the Taliban.
Pashtuns are generally docile, but strong willed people. It is not easy to corrupt them. They really are not as barbaric as projected. They do not recognize the Durand line and did not want to be a part of Pakistan. They opposed the formation of Pakistan exclusively for Muslims. They have their own traditional value systems and unwritten codes of conduct.
Now the Taliban is different. It is made up of mostly Pashtuns who grew up in Pakistan as refugees and saw only war during their formative years. They never really underwent the traditional up bringing of the normal Pashtuns. And they were radicalized and manipulated by Pakistan’s ISI. These are the ones who swear by medieval Islam and want to control Afghanistan by strict adherence to anachronistic ways of life. The reason is simple. It gives them an ideology to stay united on a single goal. And it gives them a justification for their brutal methods. They are more like the guy you are asking questions to – someone of Pashtun origin, but raised elsewhere. Such people do not know much details, but carry false pride on top of their noses. The Taliban that overran not only had Pashtuns. It had a mix of many other radical Islamic groups from Pakistan, its army regulars and operatives from the ISI. The real Taliban is in Rawalpindi at the ISI headquarters. They are the ones who plan and coordinate all efforts. The rest are puppets and foot soldiers who take orders from the ISI.
@sensiblepatriot,
He can’t explain his viewpoints. There is no explanation for racially supremacist viewpoints.
He twists history to suit his own purposes. Afghans can’t be defeated and Alexander the Great never conquered them? Yeah right. Is that why they named Kandahar after the guy? And after that they were conquered by the Arabs. That’s the reason they are Muslim today. And after the Arabs, came the Mughals.
Invincible? I think not. That’s not to say that the Pashtuns are push-overs. It’s just that they aren’t supermen like Rex Minor makes them out to be. They have won and lost their fair share of conflicts like every other ethnic group in the world.
WRT to Rex Minor, it is either his zeal to see the West (and the USA in particular) fail in Afghanistan or his outright racially supremacist attitudes that have him failing to see and read history truthfully.
I stand by my assertion that he is either a first or second generation (Pashtun) Pakistani migrant sitting in Germany telling us how the Pashtuns will rule the world (or South Asia) at least. His loud protestations that he’s not Pakistani do not sway me. Just because he holds a German passport does not mean he’s not ethnically Pakistani. And that’s why he never mentions his heritage. He just goes on about how he’s not “Pakistani”. Now that wouldn’t matter much in this forum (why bother about where he’s from or his descent), if it weren’t for his ridiculously racially motivated viewpoints.
The Taliban aren’t doing all that well either. They are certainly no Viet Cong. At least the Viet Cong were somewhat more supported by the locals. The Afghans may not like NATO, but survey after survey shows the only people they don’t like more than NATO are the Taliban. The Taliban have only come as far as they have through their fear tactics. Assasinations, night letters, kidnappings, throwing acid on women who work or girls who attend school, etc. The people fear them. That should not be mistaken for support or endorsement of them by Pashtuns at large. And outside of that, there’s certainly no love for the Taliban in the northern half of Afghanistan. The Taliban will never be able to recover their footing in the northern half of the country again. After 10 years under NATO, these people have discovered freedom. You’re more likely to see a civil war than an acceptance of Taliban rule in the northern half of the country.
All that said, there are parallels to the Viet Cong that are disturbing. The VC survived because their sanctuaries were never succesfully targetted. Back then it was Laos and Cambodia, and backing from China. Today it’s Pakistan. They were able to move because infiltration was difficult control. Then it was the jungles of South-east Asia. Today it’s the Hindu Kush. The VC had solid knowledge of the local terrain and social structures. The Taliban are equally knowledegeable…and by the time our troops get the same knowledge (at the end of their 6-9 month tour), they are rotated out. The VC’s backers were not targetted then (China) and the Taliban’s backers (Pakistan) are not targetted now. That said, despite all their advantages, the Taliban aren’t doing incredibly well and if they get back to power, they will surely be in a worse position. They will again become a client state of Pakistan…only this time it will be a Pakistan that itself is dependent on US aid. They will be internationally isolated and countries will be reticent to assist them after having fought them for so long. And they won’t be able to offer any real safe havens to groups like Al Qaeda any more. Meanwhile, they’ll have a restive population that has lived for a decade without the need to grow a beard or having to attend public executions. They aren’t likely going to be happy to see serious quality of life gains traded for an austere existence again. If the Taliban “win”, this will be a far more pyrrhic victory than the VC ever got.
One question that hasn’t been discussed much is what happens to Pakistan if the Taliban get back to power in Afghanistan. The Afghans will now be dependent on them for aid, which they might not have the resources to provide, which might turn the Taliban hostile. And having protected the Taliban for so long and having helped reinstate them into power, the world will now hold Pakistan responsible for anything and everything that happens in Afghanistan. Seems to me like the Pakistanis are making a huge gamble that they’ll be able to manage a post-war Afghanistan with the Taliban. Yet, they can’t even seem to keep the extremists at bay from within.
Ps sorry for th missing words in spellings, I am sure you would get the message. The reorter who described about the massacre in Kabul was the reporter jounalist Tom Pocock, I had to dig this ot from one of the old news paper. Good luck in your research. The Pashtoons do not have a big mouth. Pakistan army is now realizing as well. Their loyalty is for their family and homes and not for the country per say.
Rex Minor
@Keithz: “The only people I could think of, worthy of such mental gymnastics, would be the Nazis.”
You probably missed it as it was a while ago but this guy (Rex minor) is on the record, defending the Nazis & justifying their crimes against humanity (especially jews).
Keithz, don’t let the likes of Rex minor, discourage you from posting on this blog. I can assure you that there are a lot more people interested in your views than, in his. Just ignore him like the rest of us do. As far as Reuters moderators are concerned, they have been asleep at the wheel for quite some time now. Either that or they are so desperate for Pakistani participation that they are even willing to allow verbal diarrhea of the lowest moral & literary standards.
Mortal:”The article is indeed quite scathing. It’s hard to believe that it was penned by Hitchens”.
Indeed, it was a sea change!!! I have to double check if he was same guy.Although his article went a bit too far spitting out anger without much rational though. It was still a remarkable change!!
The wall is closing on the ISI. There are more leads that point at the ISI-Bin Laden links:
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/06/24/world/ asia/24pakistan.html?_r=1&hp
“The wall is closing on the ISI. There are more leads that point at the ISI-Bin Laden links” Posted by KPSingh01
With the troop withdrawal from Afghanistan, formally in progress, I suspect we’ll see many more such stories in the days & months ahead. The worms have started to leave the can.
I have an interesting story to tell about the nature of humans, which at times resembles Monkeys(yeah, you’ve read right). I’ve read this experiment in some internet blog and it goes something like this.
Many times we do not ask – why we do what we do.
Eight monkeys are put in a room. In the middle of the room is a ladder, leading to a bunch of bananas hanging from a hook on the ceiling.
Each time a monkey tries to climb the ladder; all the monkeys are sprayed with ice water, which makes them miserable.
Sooner enough, whenever a monkey attempts to climb the ladder, all of the other monkeys, not wanting to be sprayed, set upon him and beat him up.
Soon, none of the eight monkeys ever attempts to climb the ladder (for fear of ice water being sprayed on them).
One of the original monkeys is then removed, and a new monkey is put in the room. Seeing the bananas and the ladder, he wonders why none of the other monkeys are doing the obvious, but, undaunted, he immediately begins to climb the ladder. All the other monkeys fall upon him and beat him silly (no ice water is sprayed this time).
He has no idea why. However, he no longer attempts to climb the ladder.
A second original monkey is removed and replaced. The newcomer again attempts to climb the ladder, but all the other monkeys hammer the crap out of him. This includes the previous new monkey, who, grateful that he’s not
on the receiving end this time, participates in the beating because all the other monkeys are doing it. However, he has no idea why he’s attacking the
new monkey.
One by one, all the original monkeys are replaced.
Eight new monkeys are now in the room. None of them have ever been sprayed by ice water.
None of them attempt to climb the ladder. All of them will enthusiastically beat up any new monkey who tries, without having any idea why.
Many times we do not ask – why we do what we do!
If this nature is extrapolated to humans we exactly react in ways that seems in no way reasonable or logical for a person viewing this experiment from outside, but due to our own historical reasons we will remain mired in our own ways.
Just like Indian communists and indeed a significant section of Indian public does not realize that world has changed since socialistic days and even in china the only thing that is red is perhaps girls lipsticks, they remain unreconciled to sweeping structural changes due to globalisation and they still hang to antiquated ideas of social idealism!!
Chinese too, oblivious to the sweeping democratic political revolutions being fired their near and abroad remain entangled with their own archaic political system which is a relic and resorts to horrible human rights violations in the garb of national power and patriotism.
West, on its part is guilty of destroying the nature (significant part) and its extreme materialistic culture,individualistic and anti-family attitudes (sub nuclear families) which resulted in high debt and feckless spending have brought upon them, the economic depression. But still remain tight fisted on their ideas of life (Oh God! you are still virgin!?!).
While their indulgencies are less lethal to their societies and hardly effect others, Pakistan’s case is different. If we could turn every nation into a monkey with its own indulgencies, the pakistani one which sets fire to its own house and others is far dangerous to the world. Obviously, the cross-border terrorism and low intensity warfare has been hurting this monkey a lot these days. Will this monkey indulge in something that wont set fight in other’s neighbours.
When others protest about this behaviour (terrorism) and threaten it to teach a lesson, the nation protests that they are violating its sovereignty and counter-threatens them with nuclear brinkmanship!!!
KPsingh01,
Nice post. While I was a little disappointed with Rex’s reply harping back on the invincibility of pashtuns, I have neverthless agree most of the other points he put in his post.
May be my criticism of pashtuns(not taliban) treating their women shabbily smacks of our own hypocrisy who doesn’t treat womean any better.
As you rightly pointed out before that, Afghanistan being a geopolitical highway for invading forces have made the local culture more defensive,intrasigent, consservative and inward looking whose sole purpose is survival (an not rule other lands). In this way they protect their women which for us looks more parochial.
when rex Says:”but they were also fiercely patriotic, treacherous, savage and first class soldiers”- he is unwittingly saying that they are no special people but due to extreme and hostile circumstances have to be adapted this way. His complete avoidance of Taliban in his posts and mixing them with pashtuns when it suits the arguments have a really interesting narrative which I will cover in my previous post. Believe me this behaviour is not unique.
kEiThZ,
Excellent post and no disagreements here. I just wanted to add one point to your thought that “The Afghans will now be dependent on them for aid, which they might not have the resources to provide, which might turn the Taliban hostile”, Yes, Afghans will indeep depend on pakistan for Aid but this is where Pakistan’s prized assets come up into play.
Pakistan not only provides sanctuaries for world’s most dangerous terrorists (Bin Laden), Its unbrindled hatred for India has led it to provide asylum to world’s most notorious mafia dons. Dawood Ibrahim with his wide network of criminals and drug peddlars is going to create a huge poppy empire in Afghanistan once americans leave and this will provide enough resources to feed taliban forces and indulge in even more belligerence. When the sole purpose of an Army or state is to undermine the other, it stops counting the cost-benefit ratio of such policy and any appeal to review of oppurtunity cost of such war from saner elements amounts to derision and ridicule from the Army.
Sorry for the long posts. I would try to shorten it as much as possibile, I had to blog alot as my Internet connection is expection to go down tomorrow.
while we Indians (or pakisanis) are happy to see Indian people and Indian Government as seperate. The non-Resident people have problems in supporting a country.
If they say well Indian people are basically good but the government is bad and corrupt. Westerners simply ridicule them and say “Hell with it. All are rogues. If they are so good, whey dont they elect some good government?”, without understanding about the complex realities that come with a nation state. This marks the confusion and leads to weave theories of cultural greatness.
“Over the time as the initial rage declines to normal levels and owing to the negative press that South Asia gets (India and Pakistan to be more precise) in their country, they stop supporting India but rather bad mouthing it and eventually make every attempt to potray themselves as Australians.These cousins concurred to me how at times they ridiculed India before Australians.” Posted by sensiblepatriot
I don’t know much about South Asian press coverage in Australia since I’ve barely been there but I can tell you that in the US & Europe (by & large), the press coverage of India is very different than that of Pakistan. Although negatives like poverty & corruption do exist, over the last decade or so, India has come to be defined largely by it’s economic success & rising stature in the world order. Pakistan on the other hand has gone in the opposite direction & unfortunately, is defined by terrorism.
Also, I don’t think the term ABCD (American born confused desi) is applicable to today’s Indian American. From what I see, Indian Americans, are no longer ashamed or confused about their Indian identity but have rather grown to become proud of it. For example, I know quite a few Indian Americans (born in the US) who have had no problems with moving to India to explore employment & business opportunities there, while their first generation immigrant parents, would have their reservations in doing the same.
For a lameduck prime minister who stakes his government for the sake of nuclear deal, it has now ended in this.
“http://www.thehindu.com/news/national/a rticle2132457.ece”.
> My cousins told me how australians were racist brats who ridicule everything that is Indian be it its Gods, Food or manners.
Bullsh*t.
> But although the original mother country,Britain and Europe in general have left behind the racial overtones, still significant australians display this biracial attitudes.
More bullsh*t.
I’ve lived in Australia for 13 years. I’ve experienced nothing of the kind. I don’t know if your cousins have a massive chip on their shoulder or have been singularly unlucky in the kind of people they associate with.
And the one Canadian guy I worked with in Sydney was not the epitome of cultural sensitivity.
Regards,
Ganesh Prasad
kEiThZ:”It always blows my mind that so many South Asians choose Australia”.
Probably has got something to do with that country’s immigration policy. I’ve been told that it’s a lot easier to migrate to Australia than to US, Canada or UK. A friend of mine who migrated to Australia a few years ago told me that most Indians who migrate to Australia, have tried migrating to the US, Canada & UK and failed.
Also, Australia’s commodity driven economy, is doing a lot better than North American & European economies, so I’m sure they have more employment opportunities there.
kEiThZ:”It always blows my mind that so many South Asians choose Australia”.
During the cold war era, Canada was not very receptive to India. So was UK. Getting visa to Canada was almost impossible for Indians. Going to the US as a graduate student was a lot easier even during the cold war days.
The second factor is the immigration class that went to the US and other countries. In the US migration during the 1970s until the early 1990s was mostly through higher education. This brought mostly highly educated individuals from prestigious colleges from India who landed high pay jobs. They could afford to be financially independent and had grown up with liberal values even while in India. These people easily blended into the American mainstream and race etc did not matter at that level. The average annual income of this group of migrants was more than 60k dollars a year. Most lived in comfort and high income neighborhoods. Most were scientists, academics, financial experts and surgeons and doctors.
In contrast, most people who migrated to Canada or the UK in those days were from peasant and low income groups from the sub-continent. In these two countries, the wealthy groups of Indians mostly came from East Africa. They were traditionally business people dealing in jewelry, motels, restaurants, textile etc. This was a much smaller group compared to the majority immigrants into UK and Canada from South Asia. Many of these immigrants moved in and became cab drivers, factory workers etc. They were not highly educated. Many could not speak English fluently. Many were not polished or sophisticated. Many brought their unhygienic habits with them. As a result they were looked at with scorn by the locals. And they could work hard and at a much lower salary level than the locals for menial jobs. They tended to rely on community support. As a result they relied heavily on their religion (Muslims, Sikhs), ethnicity (Gujeratis, Punjabis, Bengalis), linguistic heritage (Tamils) etc. This brings in a ghetto mindset which brands people as those who refuse to integrate and remain isolated with old, traditional values. It is from such communities that many radicals have emerged (Many from Muslim community in UK that turned into terrorists, Tamil tiger supporters, Khalistan militants etc).
With the arrival of info tech, India’s economic liberalization, and the end of cold war, things have changed radically. Stress has shifted towards radical Islam and its origin in Pakistan. India has become less visible in this regard and its presence is being recognized on the economic and industrial front. And India has stayed away from the COAS mission in Af-Pak from a military standpoint. All this has changed the image about India. A new generation of Westerners has grown up and have seen India on a positive light more.
Migration from India has now turned in all directions. This means, people have started moving into New Zealand and Australia as well. Most go in there as skilled individuals and are welcomed there. Countries want software potential that India has aplenty. What is going on in Australia is a cultural adjustment and acceptance of the reality. In about two decades time Indians will be accepted as a part of the mainstream. Culturally Australians seem to be more intimidating like the Greeks and Italians. One can see that in cricket. They got their noses bitten when Indian cricketers began to stand up to them and it shocked them completely. It coincided with their decline from dominance of world cricket and India’s emergence as the richest cricket nation with a clout.
Before we migrate to other planets, we have to become one nation first.
Ganesh,
Different people, different perceptions and different experiences. Lets agree to disagree.
I have never said every Australian is a racist by nature, I said “still significant australians display this biracial attitudes”, which means still after Asians migrating for few decades and still after significant decline in racist attitudes, there are “still” significant australians who display biracial attitudes.
My cousins lived their entire life in Australia starting for 7 years of age (incidentally my uncle lived with his family in New Zealand for 2 years and they found it dramatically less racist, they moved to australian in 1995) and they might have encountered various age groups during school, middle schools and college level.
My Aunt works as an accountant in a Government department and she said she had encountered it among her collegues in office who constantly questions her cultural taits and lifestyle in a demeaning way (“You pray to monkey god”, while giggling). Quite evidently Private sector has stronger policies relating to cultural and business ethics and employees dont question each other often on their cultural differences.
I wont try to convince you as I am not myself sure and becuase I have heard this from my Aunts and cousines wont make an authoritative source, but suffice it to say lets agree to disagree and not digress from main topic.
But my point was completely different. Social groups migrating to different countries still cling on to socio-political-religious traits even when their mother country has changed for good. And these groups still live in a kind of time warp of the past like we see some khalistan supporting sikh groups and eelam supporting lankan tamils.
Ganesh,
My previous posts were not about Australia’s racism but how people react in face of racial slurs. And the issue of facing racist slurs is related to each individual, how he takes it.
kpsingh01:”They were not highly educated. Many could not speak English fluently. Many were not polished or sophisticated. Many brought their unhygienic habits with them. As a result they were looked at with scorn by the locals. And they could work hard and at a much lower salary level than the locals for menial jobs. They tended to rely on community support”.
It is probably true, people with thick native accents were often subjects of ridicule and people who compete for lower jobs clerks,janitors are looked down in every society as they compete with native populations and are more hard working.People who are highly skilled,with sophisticated communication and speaking skills face less discrimination.
And these below middle classes and consuming classes (consuming classes, who are just above poverty line)with limited skills find recourse in community and religion.
This could be perhaps the reason why Indians look down bangladeshis and shiv sainiks in mumbai play up with the insecurity of marathi bhais(women janitors) in perpetuating an anti-bangladeshi movement. Although I am not a supporter of bangladeshi immigration neither the shiv sainik bigots are nationalistic cadre.