Pakistan: Now or Never?
Perspectives on Pakistan
Taliban talks: the new mirage in Afghanistan
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Afghan President Hamid Karzai has just said in public what many have been saying for months in private, that the United States is holding talks with the Taliban to try to reach a settlement to the decade-long war in Afghanistan. “Peace talks are going on with the Taliban. The foreign military and especially the United States itself is going ahead with these negotiations,” he said in a speech in Kabul.
We have been hearing reports about these talks for months. In the climate of disinformation that threads through the Afghan war, it is hard to say exactly when they started, but I first heard last November that the Americans had begun direct talks with representatives of the Taliban and if that was correct, they must have begun some time before that.
Such direct talks have long been promoted by many Afghan experts as a necessary but not sufficient condition for a political settlement. While western countries have argued that political reconciliation must be Afghan-led, the Americans are the power-brokers, and unlike the administration in Kabul, the only ones who have the authority to deliver on any concessions agreed in the negotiations.
And the United States has also shifted its position on the Taliban — effectively admitting that the movement can be treated separately from al Qaeda by convincing the U.N. Security Council to split its sanctions list imposing asset freezes and travel restrictions into two.
All that said, there is a danger that the U.S. Taliban talks become the new mirage in Afghanistan by suggesting that a political settlement is on the horizon if only the current strategy is maintained. According to senior diplomats involved in international discussions on Afghanistan, the talks have yet to gain any serious traction. One diplomat said the two sides were still “gauging each other’s temperature”; another said that, “there are no serious load-bearing talks going on.”
And despite U.S. insistence that its military campaign in Afghanistan is — to use its favourite phrases - “turning the corner” or “gaining momentum” – one diplomat suggested that the Taliban’s ambitions were still as high as they had been before Washington sent an extra 30,000 troops.
Unlike the role sketched out for them by western governments in which they would folded into a broader political process, he said the Taliban were still looking for a serious stake in power. Among their ambitions would be for Taliban leader Mullah Mohammed Omar to be rehabilitated as “Amir ul-Mu’mineen”, or supreme leader of the faithful, even if not directly running the government - an idea talked about back in early 2010.
A report by Antonio Giustozzi and Christoph Reuter published by the Afghan Analysts Network backs up that assertion that the Taliban’s ambitions remain high. (the full pdf report is here). The report focuses on inroads made by the Taliban in the Afghan north – well beyond their Pashtun heartland in the south.
It argues that the Taliban had been effective in opening their ranks to non-Pashtuns in the north, bringing in ethnic groups like Uzbeks and Tajiks who were traditionally hostile to the Islamist movement when they ruled Afghanistan from 1996-2001.
“The Taliban appear to have a clear strategy aimed at destabilising northern Afghanistan. Moving north, and thereby covering non-Pashtun areas, strengthens their claim to be the legitimate government of Afghanistan and to be fighting for the whole country, not just for an ethnic group or a specific region. The Taliban are not only fighting the Afghan government – they are seeking to replace it with their own administration. This, they do with astonishing effectiveness,” the report says.
The United States is hoping to convince Pakistan to lean on the Taliban, which it says is based in and around the town of Quetta in Baluchistan, to take part in serious negotiations. It also wants the Pakistan Army to push further into the tribal areas bordering eastern Afghanistan to eliminate sanctuaries used both by Afghan insurgents and foreign fighters, including al Qaeda.
Convincing Pakistan to work with the United States on either or both of these objectives has become more difficult after the souring of relations which followed the May 2 raid by U.S. forces who found and killed Osama bin Laden in the Pakistani town of Abbottabad. But even assuming the two countries manage to repair relations – and both have an interest in a stable Afghanistan – there is another problem.
Pakistan has long complained that even if it were to drive insurgents out of the tribal areas, they would find refuge in eastern Afghanistan, leaving it vulnerable to counter-attack unless the United States military shored up its own presence there.
A report by Gilles Dorronsoro (pdf) paints a gloomy picture of eastern Afghanistan — where U.S. troops have been thinned out in order to allow them to concentrate on population centres in the south. U.S.-led troops in southern Afghanistan, he argues, are fighting the same Taliban that it sees as having a role in a political settlement, while allowing more aggressive players – like the Haqqani network, along with elements from al Qaeda and the Pakistani militant gorup Lashkar-e-Taiba – to thrive in eastern Afghanistan.
“Despite a lack of U.S. interest in these (eastern) regions, their strategic importance is infinitely greater than that of Helmand or even Kandahar.The importance of the Eastern Triangle is due to its location between the capital and the Pakistani insurgent sanctuaries, and its importance in facilitating the passage of insurgents from Pakistan.”
Dorronsoro also notes that many of these eastern Afghan border areas follow a Salafist tradition of Islam – as distinct from the Deobandism followed by the Taliban – giving them an ideological affinity with Salafist groups like al Qaeda and the Lashkar-e-Taiba, and raising the scope for them to become a new sanctuary for international jihadis.
“The final aspect of the insurgency’s actions in the east is the presence of transnational jihadist groups in the border regions. Al Qaeda, in particular, has returned to Afghanistan and is cooperating with the Taliban on individual operations … Lashkar-e-Taiba has long been present in Nuristan and Kunar and,less obviously, in Nangarhar Province, in the district of Khogiani. In any case, the area now represents a rather secure sanctuary capable of welcoming important leaders in the future, which would be a symbolic coup,” he writes.
To sum all that up, despite the intensive counter-insurgency campaign in the Taliban’s heartland in the south, the movement’s demands for political power remain high. The Taliban is increasing its presence in the north. And in the east, international jihadis are carving out a new sanctuary, expanding out from their original bases in the tribal areas of Pakistan. If all those reports prove to be correct, or even some of them, you could argue that the position of the United States and its allies in Afghanistan is getting worse, rather than better, as it prepares to start gradually withdrawing troops.
I first wrote in early 2009 about how regional experts were saying the United States should hold negotiations with the Taliban to reach a political settlement. Many others must have done so before that. Now that the United States has embarked on those talks, rather than asking whether they offer a way out of the war, perhaps we also need to ask another less palatable question. Have they left it too late?
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The fact that lower middle classes and consuming classes are subjected to brain washing (of their community or culture) is a known fact, but west was still aghast how a upper middle class pakistani like shazadat with good education and decent living could attempt to plant a bomb at times square. I could not explain to myself with a convincing answer. Although people with limited education get brain washed easily, the fact that an upper middle class guy (not the poorest to be affected by brain washing and not the riches to be affected by hubris and arrogance) affected to religious fanaticism that he attempts to bomb the same society which offers him life and more peaceful ways to dissent. I still could not reconcile why?
Good article Myra,
It would be interesting to know what your opinions are on the timing of the US ‘draw down’ or ‘pull out’, and if you think it has a lot to do with the sinking US economy?
If things are getting worse for the US in Afghanistan as you say (I would say yes) then we could expect the US to inject more troops / resources into the conflict. Unless they can no longer afford to wage this war..
My opinion, the US is going to lose this war.
The Bush administration thought the ‘war on terror’ they invented would be a blank cheque to advance the US economy through sweeping military actions across the worlds energy and strategic areas, but the opposite has happened.
They underestimated the strength and will of their opponents, overestimated the value of their conquest both economically and morally, and were arrogant to the ever growing lack of trust and respect the world has for US.
Like all things American, the loss of this war will not be genuine. Like a disgraced CEO, we will let them leave Afghanistan ‘for personal reasons’ or ‘to pursue other opportunities’.
The US is bankrupt and the war is lost both physically and more importantly ideologically. But we got Bin Laden!
This whole obscure chapter of modern history will soon conveniently blend our collective memory filed somewhere between – Severely compromised victory in negotiated non-allied enemy non-combatant, reclassified terror objective codenamed – Moral Retreat. and, Extraordinary rendition of dehumanised enhanced interrogation of sectarian links to branches of wings on franchises of Al Qaeda offshoots in former un-official allied dictatorships leaked on condition of anonymity.
sensiblepatriot,
Racism in Australia is a very convoluded issue. I am australian, white, and know first hand and in full detail this subject in my country.
I think the operative word here is WHITE.
Australia is VERY multicultural, so one might immediately ask, who is racist??? Indian Australians? Asian Australians?
But I think I know who we are talking about here… white Australians. You just don’t want to say it for fear of sounding racist yourself.
This view itself I believe is just as racist as a white Australians view that Indian cab drivers are rude and always try to rip you off. It’s a generalization.
I find it very strange indeed that racism always seems to be directed at white people, like it’s something exclusive to us.
I can’t remember the last time I saw a different colored person accused of racism. Having said that I have travelled all over Asia and found Asians to be profoundly more racist than any white people I’ve ever met. Not only are they extremely racist in general to white people but they are extremely racially aggressive towards other Asians.
Lets get one thing straight, racism isn’t people judgeing others based on their color, most of the time it’s people who judge others on their ACTIONS.
If there is a culture out there that is extremely offensive to my beliefs and to my culture then I have EVERY right to dislike this culture and it’s practitioners.
Not only do we have every right to do this, but we have every right to openly criticize these practices.
How dare anyone try to tell me that, because the person hacking up dolphins with machetes while they’re still alive, or the person plundering the great whales of the ocean for meat and sharks for their fins, or blowing themselves up in a crowded marketplace is a different color, that criticizing them is “racism”.
In my country western culture clashes with Indian culture, when they are rude and try to rip us off.
They dominate two professions outside Indian food in Australia – Taxi driving and 711 24hour stores. These two transactions are our most likely points of contact with an Indian person on a daily basis and they both reliably offer examples of extreme customer exploitation.
We do not like this.
We also do not respect the fact that they come here from elsewhere and selectively exploit our freedoms without embracing them as values in their own lives. Many Indian parents will not allow their children to mix sexually with other races and believe in arranged marriage.
I personally had a relationship with an Indian woman for over 2 years where the girls parents to this day still didn’t know I existed.
Western culture in Australia also clashes with aboriginal culture and Asian culture to a large extent.
Aboriginals in Australia are often extremely aggressive to white Australians, regardless of circumstance or prior meeting. White Australians (especially in cities) are generaly afraid of Aboriginals and stay away from them, as it is not uncommon to be attacked for no reason.
They have some of the worst problems with alcohol and drug abuse of any group in the world and let their children roam the streets sniffing solvents and aerosols, drinking methelated spirits and siphoning petrol out of people’s cars for inhaling.
They have almost no collective motivation to either partake in an advanced and extremely fruitful society as VIPs with extra support, or live traditionally on vast and fruitful reserves of land across the country.
They fight among eachother almost constantly and are extremely prone to violent criminal behavior despite having access to free land, free housing and VIP social security and legal services.
I know friends that have built free houses for Aboriginals only to come back 3 months later to find them destroyed and ripped apart for use as firewood.
They are of the oldest yet most primative races on the planet, to put this into perspective, they have been in Australia for as long as 80,000 years and their culture never moved past stick technology. Their greatest creations in this time: A curved throwing stick (boomerang). And a stick for throwing another stick further (woomera). They also realised in this time that if you take a flat stick, attach it to a piece of string and sing it around it makes a loud vibrating noise as it spins.
They are literally modern day cave men.
Our issues with many Asian people are simple, they come here for economic prosperity, not to partake in Australian society or culture. Many won’t even bother learning english as they live almost their entire lives here in Asian communities that take over whole suburbs.
They keep to themselves, are very rude and speak racially about you often in their language right in front of you, and will often not respond if you try to initiate a conversation.
Another group western culture in Australia has a problem with is Lebenese and some other mediterranian guido like male cultures. This is because they come here and form criminal gangs of street thugs who perpetrate some of the worst and most aggressive street crimes in the country.
Australian jails are full of these steriod pumped thugs and serial drug dealers. We also find their treatment of women extremely offensive. They have been known to gang rape our women and race riots have broken out (famously on sydney beaches) because of this sick and criminal behavior. Their parents are similar to Asian parents, very unwilling to learn english and/or partake in Australian society. They also seem to be here to take advantage of our economy.
None of these things that Australians or westerners dislike are exclusive to white or western culture, in fact I believe we have the most tolerant and culture in the world and that is why western culture and intelligence dominates the world.
Dear brian-decree,
My posts were in context of Rex’s rumblings about invincibility of pashutun races who believed in absolute indomitability of these supposedly superior warring race.
I suggest you read my posts more carefully, For benefit of the readers I would reemphasize what I have said.
“Families who reach there suffer certain maladies, those of the first generation are forced to be apologetic about being born in India and they spiritedly support
their nation or culture, morality(virgin morality for girls only!!) and stong family bonds”.
Have u realized that I was being a self-critic here, where I have accepted that First generation indians(or migrants of any origin) suffer certain “maladies”,
effectively meaning that they are overtly sensitive when reacting to simple questions from Western people. They may be asking out of curiosity or to ridicule but the
way we are extremely apologetic (Indian cultural nationalism at british or Australian shores, you seen in movies) saying something that is wrong about us.
The children who study as adolescents in schools often brag about their greatness in their curiosity to impress young girls of their age and it is here they encounter
some primitive racist slurs of “I am taller, fairer or (something more racist, take your pick)”.
I am sure we must have faced this ourselves during our study as teenagers. But that is not my point, I was discussing how people of some cultures manage to integrate
better than other cultures. I was trying to putforth a hypothesis that although there is no perfect integration of migrant societies as such, people who come from more
tolerant, democratic and multicultural societies are able to integrate better. The fact that you have faced only discourtesy(though irritating I presume) with Indians
while you disliked lebanese criminal activities more and East asians(chinese/japanese) food habits even more appaling is a vindication of this fact that a
tolerant,multiculare and democratic indians are more inclined to change their habits(but then you did not have an open dialogue with them have you ? but expect to
change the moment they touch australian shores) than people coming from unicultural or authoritarian societies .
“If they are young enough, they see parents as archaic,boring, methodical and neelessly apologetic about a country with whom they have no roots”, If u managed to read
this, I said children find annoying that parents blindly supporting India with whom they(children) have no roots left and wont understand why they have to leave when
they(parents) love their country so much.
When children complete their education and start to look for jobs, parents out of concern would have transformed their attitudes a little (out of concern for children
or some other reason), long term friends of these kids wont take it so naturally and see this as an un-natural transformation. Well this is what was told by my cousins
and as people have pointed out this is very subjective in nature and depends on individual to individual. I have myself clarified that my sources are not authoritative
in any way and were too subjective. I took liberty by extrapolating a common cultural trait of migrating societies to putforth a different hypothesis which is what we
really need to focus.
Of course “what matters to them was only to agree that India is basically a poverty pit, a scum society and backward looking caste cauldron”, the accusation here is
very true and just like Australians take exception when we identify them as RACIST, we can exception when they identify us with poverty and backwardness.
Please correct me if I am wrong, Haven’t Australian newspapers gloated in a negative way when we launched our mission to moon with underlying ridicule that when half
of India is in hunger a delusional government seeks superpower status.
Or the way in which Australian news papers never print Indian world cup victory in their front pages although cricket is one of the most important sport
(Australians being champions themselves) and how the news was pushed inside while Australian cricketers travel to their home country given more precedence. I am now
sure that India gets good press owing to the fact that we have become your second biggest importers of your mineral wealth.
Just as you felt it was discourteous of not knowing english we feel the same when you ask about our religion,gods,foodsculture. when pakistan or some other country is doing badly we cast entire blame on the nation’s people without understanding the intricacies of the problems and migrants in a sense to uphold their mother country will brag about cultural greatness to foreigners while thoroughly criticizing everybody from that mother country when they come to the mother country to visit relatives.
when I said “still significant australians display this biracial attitudes”, I was confirming that RACIST attitudes have declined throughout history in Australia, I wouldn’t be a fool to believe you never suffered with it but its equally true you have come out.
For me Australia still seems pre-liberal society harping on nationalism that generally emerging and developing nations harp on. Post-liberal societies and people in developed world do not dwelve too much into this “nationalism” stuff like Europe or indeed Canada.In this way Australia is an oddity.
Ganesh, I am looking forward to your opinion on brian-decree’s post and I am sure it will be more intellectual and of course brian’s opinions cannot be generalized. While I may take little time to answer his post,have a good time for now.
@Brian-decree
I have also lived in Australia for some years and found it one of the best and remember the warm Sydney throughout the year requiring no heating during winter. The possibility for out door activities including Golf and swimming, as well as digging in the garden for some opals is not comparable to any other part of the world that I have seen and lived in. People used to migrate to Australia and still do from Germany, not only to seek employment but prefer it over the USA or Canada since the latter countries do not have a homogenious societies with advanced western culture. A multi cultural society is not a preferance for many Europeans seeking a future for their children.
I shall go along with the concerns in Australia which you have described, though the causual factors are not clear in your comments. There are some which are related to social issues and others to resistance of certain immigrant sector against integration. I am of the opinion that the host countries must implement specific actions within their country to encourage and motivate integration.
The question of discrimination of one group of people against the other group of people, such as Asians or Africans against the caucasians and vice a versa is a regular evil in our societies and is based on our perceptions rather than the realities. Even in this age of awareness we are being deliberately targeted, subjecting us to the mass hysteria coming from the biased media, neo-conservatives, lobbyists and incompetent politicians as well as responsible Govts and its institutions.
According to Jimmy carter, the former USA President no congressman can now be elected in he USA if he or she criticise Israel foreign policy. A private citizen criticising the cosiparacies of the Zionist jews is immediately termed as an anti semit. No white man can dare complain against an African or an afro american without being accused of racism. A decent english woman addressed her Prime Minister Gordon Brown and complained about the uncontrolled immigration from Poland, making Brits loosin the jobs, and was scoffed at calling her a Bigot. This coming from aPrime Minister who is to look after the citizens of the Country. This is sickening to suppress people not speaking their minds against a certain section of the society who always prefer to live with a privileage and under a special protection clause and making him immune against any wrongs that he or she undertakes. This in my view is totaly unfair.
With regard to your last paragraph, I hasten to add that the domination of the western culture and inelligence( whatever it means) in the world can be simly explained explained by the fact that most non wester countries were colonised by the colonial power for over a two hundred or more years. I am sure that over a reasonable time the non western countries would overcome the shortfalls and their performance in the future could lead the human civilisation to a much superior level.
Rex Minor
OH and sorry folks for the formatting of the post.
sebsiblepatriot,
No we don’t ‘take offense’ when you ‘identify’ us as racist.
We just consider comments like this to BE very racist.
And despite you downplaying extreme offense as “discourtesy” by Indians. I should explain, when we let you come here from that @#%t hole of a country called India you are all so desperate to escape, and you steal from and rip off your new hosts who are already doing you such large favours, in my culture that is considered EXTREMELY rude, and not at all minor ‘discourtesy’… Maybe in India it is common practice to bite the hand that feeds you but here it is akin to spitting on Ganesh himself.
Do you understand this?
On the one hand we have identified a particular behavior belonging to a group that we deplore, this is not racism.
For you to challenge this as racism is ridiculous and makes you look racist now because you are insulting us as a people without a good reason.
If you can defend your behavior do that instead, but don’t play the racism card in defense, it’s extremely offensive to my race and to my culture.
You seem to think there is some kind of entitlement owed to emmigrants entering our country… this is bizarre and could only come from the mind of someone who has destroyed their own land.
The difference in mentality is that it’s our CULTURE that made our country successful and preserved it’s beauty.
Now for you to enter our paradise is a bloody privaledge as we have ZERO obligation to let you do so.
Do you understand this?
You are NOT entitled.
Especially when you have massively overpopulated and largely failed in your own country and seek escape.
So when you and your countrymen come here you WILL respect our customs our land and our culture or you will be harshely criticized, and in my opinion should be deported.
Because there is a long long line of people behind you begging for the right to enjoy the paradisic society that our culture has created and preserved!
Your opinion that my opinions can’t be generalized is very silly as it really just points out that you want people to think that I’m a minority in my own country.
Let me tell you something, I am a first hand witness, I am a white Australian teling YOU how it is. You are the one who is uneducated on the matter and merely defending sectarian principals on a topic you know little about. Your opinion on the matter is almost worthless because you are unable to pay respect to a first hand, first class opinion such as mine now that you’ve been lucky enough to have it presented to you.
Also your comments on our media and the world cup are ramblings of a madman…
@brian-decree: Can you elaborate on, how exactly do Indian cab drivers & C-store owners in Australia “rip-off” white australians? Don’t your cabs have meters & the items in a C-store have price tags?
@brian decree: I appreciated your post outlining the racial/cultural conflicts in australia but your last post (more of an outburst), was uncalled for!
brian-decree,
Ok, read your last post. You would do well to answer Mortal’s questions and shed some light on it.
brian-decree,
Ok, read your last post. You would do well to answer Mortal’s questions and shed some light on it.
> Ganesh, I am looking forward to your opinion on brian-decree’s post
I agree with his first post in entirety. You need to live here a few years to understand his frustrations. Imagine being an Anglo-Australian, going to the now Asian-dominated suburb of Eastwood in Sydney and seeing this in a shop window: “English spoken here”. How would you feel? What does this say about the ethnic ghettos that have sprung up? Riots have broken out in Indian cities over alien influxes that have been far less visible than this. All his references are either factual as reported in newspapers, or at least authentic personal experiences.
As I said earlier, you can’t make pronouncements on Australian society based on hearsay. You have to live here for a few years to understand the reasons for what brian-decree is saying. An immigration situation like what Australia has would have led to genocide in another country. Australia has been remarkably patient and assimilating. Immigrants have to do their bit to integrate.
His second post was however, way over the top and I won’t comment on it. He’ll probably apologise and backpedal when he’s sober
. It was the weekend, after all…
Regards,
Ganesh Prasad
Mortal1,
Your question is a very simple one, and very easy to answer.
They rip us off in cabs in a few different ways,
1) They constantly try to take longer routes
2) They always slow down before a set of traffic lights hoping it will turn red.
3) They pretend to get lost even on main roads.
4) Most importantly, the cabs are metered but all they have to do is press a few buttons at the start and or the end of the fare and they can add as many surcharges on as they like for no reason.
There was a curent affairs expose on this last week, where undercover cameras were used and exposed a systemic problem.
Indians were actually taught and encouraged by other Indian cab drivers to practice this.
In the 24hr stores their prices are ridiculous because they know there is no other option at that time for convenience goods. Their stores are FAR more expensive than an Australian equivelant sometimes by a factor of 4-5.
They also have ben found guilty of unheigenic food practices eg. not throwing away food past it’s used by date, or fresh or cooked food that is too old to sell.
I have travelled all over Asia and it is the Indians who are the most aggressive, most sleazy salesmen (usually suit salesmen). I know this first hand.
It is very obvious to an educated person when someone is trying to rip you off. You may just think we are too stupid to notice because we are usually too polite to argue.
Your questions are mildly insulting to our intelligence but what is more insulting is your claim that my opinions are not called for and are an outburst.
I will not be insulted by racial slurs in defence of people we grant the enormous favour of allowing to share our amazing country who then go on to disrespect it.
It’s obvious which side of the fence you sit on, but now you have a FIRST hand opinion of the situation. This is how it is, and this is the opinion of western cultured Australians whether you like it or not.
Remember the more you insult Australians the harder you make it for the Indians here and the harder you make it for Indians wanting to escape the billion plus squaller to a better life.
GP,
Thanks for the explanation. You are a sober individual and you seem to be kind to your compatriot brian-decree. But he comes across as a rude and uncouth racist. His posts speak for themselves.
It looks like SP or Keithz’s comments on Australia started this fist fight. The racist rants of b-d go way beyond explaining white grievance in Australia. Obviously this anti-Indian racist rant is music to the resident jihadi pest.
brian-decree,
From starting of being reasonably coherent and with many sensible opinions you later degenerated to visiousness. Not racism, but just a plain dogged viscious bias against people from other regions.
Let me add, I know of no people or group that is not racist. It is all pervasive – around the world. So please being white doe not make you lily white and pure as you seem to think by enumerating why you dont like people of other cultures. All the reasons you seem to have enumerated in your earlier posts about people having being ‘allowed’ to enter your country is also equally true of what I see of other cultures that are in India. They remain to themselves, dismissive of ‘natives’, do not mingle and stick to them themselves giggling amongst themselves, refuse to speak or learn any of our languages and generally think they still are carrying the white man’s burden.
Which is not to say that you are more rascist than we are but to point out that what you say about others also reflects truly about yourselves and the likes of your countrymen elsewhere. Why is it that even amongst your white and western cultured people ozzies are considered boorish, uncouth and ill mannered? If you want an answer, re-read some of what you have written and the answer will hit you in the face. Lets face it Indians are more known for their tolerance of other cultures, religions and people than any other. How many Australians have been murdered or attacked in India? How many in Australia in the last few years? Or is that news to you?
I notice you have not said a word about white rascist attitudes, surely it exists? Or doesn’t it in your limited experience? it is all we and you stuff. Sorry, doesn’t cut any ice here.
I think this is a nonsensical subject anyway.
I wonder what Mr. Decree feels about the native aborigines of Australia. If he expects people to come to Australia and blend in seamlessly, it is a question of how much blending his people have done with the natives. It is easy to point at others. It is very hard to look at oneself. There is no society in this world that is free of blemishes. There is no one who can cast the stone on others. Mr. Decree has no idea how much colonization of the planet by his people has destroyed native civilizations, wiped out cultures to extinction, decimated populations and divided people into perpetual conflict through artificial and arbitrary creation of borders. All this has been done so that his people can live a comfortable, luxurious lives with rights and high standards of living. When others start moving in seeking their livelihoods just like his ancestors did, they become crooks, criminals, cheats and what not. Does he know his forefathers betrayed, cheated, lied and double crossed people to conquer the world? It was not just by the might of the gun. Does he know that all the naval advancements, explorations and discoveries happened because of the pursuit to find a shorter sea-route to India, the land of the gold? India was once very wealthy. It was sought after by many Europeans. One of them landed in the Caribbean and thought he had reached India. The natives of North America are called Indians for some strange reason! It is human nature to seek a better life and no one had the right to deny that to others by drawing borders and denying others an equal opportunity. People bring with them what they have grown up with. It may not be appealing to the thick skinned Australians like Mr. Decree, but he has to understand that his people brought disease and species to the other lands that wiped out native populations and species. It is important for the pot not to call the kettle black. It is a new world today. If people can compete within legal means, qualify themselves and prove their worth, they deserve all the opportunities to seek their well being. If you cannot compete fairly, go seek your fortune elsewhere where you can compete. You can no longer sit in a land with plentiful resources and live off the wealth captured by your first boat load of ancestors. This world is new and everyone who wants to work hard has the fundamental right to go anywhere and seek his fortune. He has no obligation to change his attire to suit the needs of ignorant locals who have grown fat doing not much. The world is becoming heavily populated. Countries are bulging with population. Resources are getting thin. Nature will find its way and it may not sound well for people like Mr. Decree. You never know. Your descendants might be seeking a livelihood in India, Afghanistan, Timbaktoo whatever and they are going to face the same tirade the Indians are facing in your wonderful country and beyond.
The tone of the discourse has certainly taken a turn for the worse. Let me just add two points, and stop there.
1. An academic observation: There is a difference between parochialism and racism. Parochialism is positive discrimination towards one’s own kind. Racism is negative discrimination towards people of a particular racial, ethnic or national group. While both are bad, racism is worse. Parochialism is understandable at some level, but we must try and overcome it as well. What ethnic minorities often display in Western countries is largely parochialism, but there could be some racism mixed in there as well. When such behaviour is displayed by the majority group, it’s usually pure racism. Parochialism isn’t generally observed among the majority.
2. The Australian context: To a non-Indian, all Indians must appear the same. Only Indians would be able to tell the difference in class (I don’t mean caste; I mean class).
There are educated and cultured Indians who adapt well to a society based on rules and courtesy. They follow rules and adopt gracious behaviour (e.g., smiling and saying hello to strangers they pass on the street, letting the other car go first, etc.) This is not something they were used to doing “back home”, but they are delighted to see a nicer society and try to become like the others in this society.
But many immigrants do not assimilate in this way. I have noticed that many Asians tend not to smile or say hello. Many of them turn away if someone smiles at them. It may be shyness or just something they’re not used to in their culture, but it strikes a naturalised Australian as rude behaviour.
Then there are others who perhaps because of a scarcity mentality try to “beat the system” at every opportunity. These are the people who will take more than one brochure from a government service outlet because they are free. They look for loopholes and try to take advantage of them. To such people, cleverness consists of outsmarting the system and other people. Well, it’s just petty.
Countries like Australia used to have systems based on trust. Ten years ago, I could join a new company and no one would ask me for proof of qualifications or even proof of residency/citizenship. Now with all the immigration scams, they have started doing so. It’s very sad. Our people misuse a system and then it gets tightened to everyone’s detriment.
Ethnic tradesmen are the only ones I have come across who will offer to do a job for cash, without an invoice. White Australians never do this. This is of course well-known to us Indians as “black money”. Cash is undeclared income and they don’t pay tax on it. In return, they will waive the 10% GST (Goods and Services Tax) that they would otherwise have to charge you. So you and the tradesman “win”, and the country and society lose. I didn’t leave India to introduce such corruption into an unspoilt country, so I never succumb to this nonsense. I’ll pay 10% extra for a nicer country, thank you.
I have to agree with brian-decree in many of his observations. It’s not just Indians, but we’re no better or worse than other immigrant groups. At the risk of being called an Uncle Tom, I must agree that ethnics have spoilt Australia.
Regards,
Ganesh Prasad
@brian decree
With my question, I did not mean to insult white austalians, score a point or take a side. I was simply trying to figure out the nature of the white-indian conflict in Australia. But for some reason, you seem offended by it. While you earlier comments were informative, your tone in the later ones’ is very condescending & demeaning towards Indians. From your comments, I take that you paint all the people of a particular race with one brush & you hardly have anything positive to say about other races. Even among Indians living in Australia, I’m sure all of them are not conniving cabbies & store owners. I’m sure, there are many educated & successful Indian Australians, who contribute to your country MORE than many white Australians but you seem oblivious to this fact. I won’t call you a racist, since I don’t know you but from your comments, I can now begin to understand the reasons for hate crimes against Indians in your country.
“I must agree that ethnics have spoilt Australia.”
Posted by prasadgc
Then you can also say that they (ethnics) have destroyed US, Canada, UK etc etc. I’m sorry to say this but in a way, you are defending racism.
well, As I was the origin of the much spelt out anger here, I apologise if I did hurt anybody. My opinions were not to hurt anybody intentionally.
Neverthless, Immediately after my first post I issued clarification and reclarifications that the issue of racism is very subjective in nature depends from Individual to Individual. When somebody simply play down racist slurs, he should remember how could he feel, if he were the one who faced unrelenting racial slurs. That person would never in life endorses the person who insulted him . Ask muslims of Gujarat whether they could reconcile to Modi even if he is the best administrator India has got.
When Australia dismantles the white Australia policy only in mid 1970′s, It was still one of the last countries to do so, I never thought it is rabidly racist.
Read my post I never accused “Australia a racist country”
rather I said “when they face racist slurs”, effectively saying that there are few bad apples and how Indians are bound to take it.
Rather my point was how well migrants could integrate and was believing that people from tolerant, multicultural and democratic state make a better migrant society.
Secondly, although there is no such thing as perfect migration and a migrants can be deemed more succesful when they start percolating in higher echelons of society especially politics, that is why I said canada is successful in this respect for Indians. It means Indians were successful and not that Australia is a failure. This begs a question that although Canadian Indians were from poorer social backgrounds to reach upper echelons, people moving to Australia are middle class Indians.
Finally I realized in this same forum that no matter how tolerant a migrat society is there will always be some cultural differences and states that seek migrants should also be tolerant of other cultures (how we see a white hero in hollywood befriends a black guy and they both resolve a crim, even if this not what happens it is surely sought after). Here we don’t wish a stranger(more so if its a girl) and those are somethings that these societies must understand. It takes two to clap, I guess you got it. Only constant dialogue will help reduce animosities,perceptions and control misbehaviour.
I have no grudge for brian-decree for spitting on me, but he handsomely posted what an average Australian (in his own admission) thinks about Indians and I dont hate him for that. My only fear is, if this is the inner beliefs of even a small but significant australians then there is a problem and a bigger necessity for dialogue.
Although I resisted from spitting back on him and hoped to come back quickly on the topic, I thank KP,Mortal and Dara alot in answering in the most saner voices one could hope for in the prevailing mood.
Ganesh,I take exception to some of your comments here. I could not reconcil how a learned person like you could say “ethnics have spoilt Australia”, well australians were of some ethnic group too. Or do you believe they are superior groups (Eugenics), White Australians are themselves migrants and they have no special rights to set bar on cultural moorings of anybody. Australians encouraged migration bcoz they thought its a win-win combination and dont we have more serious attibutes (hardwork, savings, strong family bonds, enterprise and above all tolerance) that make a society stronger in every sphere, rather than not knowing english properly,western perceptions of discourtesy and crimes he associates to us which everybody from every ethnicity normally does.
While some ethnics refuse to see the changed world and expect government entitlements amidst worst crises (Europe and American crisis in2008)that they brought about themselves out of greed (and not to mention an organized one) , well some ethnics agree to do work in cash (which again is very very individual like).
I agree with you that we should stop it here.
Oh and the fact that we are having a dialogue with brian even when its vicious at the start, will at one time settle down and we would come to some form of consensus.
The fact that the continued dialogue with umaripk and rex is a vindication of this process and I am sure that even if brian had some complaints,concerns with us, he could atleast talk while he doesn’t possess the same luxury with some ethnic groups.
Decree: “I have travelled all over Asia and it is the Indians who are the most aggressive, most sleazy salesmen (usually suit salesmen). I know this first hand.”
No one denies that. However, I would like to point out that you white guys are sophisticated crooks who can swindle the world by a thousand fold. Isn’t that how the aborigines lost their entire ancestral land to your people? Ricky Ponting and co make millions of dollars playing cricket. Yet they use the cheapest and unsportive methods to win a game. The Sydney cricket test between India and the Australians clearly showed how your esteemed sportsmen can cheat in front of the crowd and the camera and “win” test matches. I am glad Indians stood up and in the very next test match, your mighty team had all its filthy mouths and hands tied up from making sneaky efforts in one of the fastest wickets in the world. Guess what happened? Indians won by playing an honest game. If our cab drivers cheat, I do not deny they are crooks. But so are your people. Half the matches are won by intimidating opponents and umpires. Therefore do not throw stones at others while living in a glass house. The guys who swindled the Wall Street in 2008 did not come from India. And they brought the world economy down overnight. And the crook Bernie Madoff swindled 50 billion of others’ money. He did not learn that from the filthy cab drivers of India. He hails from the ethical and honest white man’s world.
You guys still demarcate between your terrorists and those of others, don’t you? If Pakistanis attack your precious people in Mumbai, Bali and New York, they become threat to the whole world. If they attack Indians, who cares? Some of them get protected by your governments in the name of human rights. Extradition is denied for criminals wanted by India, while people get taken to Guantanamo and impaled. And none of your countries will object to that. Talk about double standards.
See this is the essential difference between us “sensible”patriot. This is your style of insult, of viciousness:
“I have no grudge for brian-decree for spitting on me, but he handsomely posted what an average Australian (in his own admission) thinks about Indians and I dont hate him for that..”
In Australian culture we are more direct.
For example: “How dare you speak that way about me / us, that is extremely offensive and racist!”
Australians are known and enjoyed for being direct and refusing to use underhanded, dishonest and sleazy approaches.
If you think you can engage in racist behavior and comments against my people after all the favours and tollerance we’ve had for your people in our country you are going to start a fight.
You don’t seem to understand this.
You also don’t seem to understand that while you may frame these extreme insults in what you might consider an intellectual or well spoken manner, this does nothing to diminish the ferocity or provocation of your insults to an educated person.
I’ve said my bit, as the only person here that understands the situation first hand. And of course there are racists in every nation of any color. I’m not going to get drawn into an argument so childish.
I also realise I am talking to a group of Indians who have nothing better to do every day than squabble back and forth from either side of your racial or religious fence, thinking they are solving the worlds problems.
You are all like furniture in here, how many years have you been arguing with eachother over useless semantics and sectarian gripes??
So there you have it, the raw truth.
You may have rather drawn it out and beat around the bush for the next few weeks but that is not a priority of mine, I’m not here to stroke my ego.
So next time you think you can slip in a sleazy little insult or racial comment you would do well to remember that Australians are very proud of our country and our culture and will defend it from slander and racism and those with a victim mentality or inferiority complex.
And we will not be dragged down to your level.
If you are going to insult someone, at least have the conviction to look them in the eyes as you do it.
KpSingh01,
Lets take your last two posts as example of the extreme racism, generalization and insult I’m talking about.
You have a disgusting attitude to life and humanity.
Maybe that’s why your country was so easily conquered by a much smaller, more superior force.
Overpopulation is an Asian problem, not a western problem.
Maybe we shouldn’t allow you to escape your lands to our shores if that is your attitude…
Maybe we should just leave you to rot in the absolute mess you created in your own land?
You are extremely racist.
This must be the most immature, irrelevant and totally uncalled for debate that it has been my misfortune to witness here. I know standards are rapidly declining but this is the pits.
There is a level beyond which I cannot stoop. Brian-decree you have the floor! Such anger can only be a result of envy or fear.
kpsingh01, you have already been reported.
The rest of you have been warned, stop the racism and get back on topic.
IF brian _decree is so upset of having to deal with Indian cabbies and shop floor workers he does not seem to be well prepared for the future where there are good possibilities that he has to report to an Indian manager.
Also I am puzzled by his repeated use of “we” – are there multiple people typing each post to the name of “brian decree”? or have some group of (aussies?) appointed him as their voice and have authorized him to post on their behalf and or does he have a multiple personality disorder ?
If you can’t take the heat don’t go into the kitchen.
I have reported every one of your comments to reuters.
Please stop your psychopathic racism against my culture and my people immediately!
Reuters I am being attacked racially by a group of psychopathic Indian bloggers. Can you please intervene.
Myra: Close the thread and report this racism to Reuters accounts.
This is very serious, and I consider this extreme racism towards Australians.
Please take action immediately.
I will not let this rest now.
This is absolutely disgusting behavior.
Brian-decree:
Mate, take a chill pill. Hysterics aren’t very Aussie.
KP, your question is rhetorical and I don’t know how to answer it. Let me just say that the “attacks on Indian students” were overhyped by the Indian media and made out to be racist attacks. Some of them may have been so. Others were criminal attacks on perceived soft targets for monetary gain. Yet others were attacks by other ethnic minorities. The subtleties of these incidents were not properly investigated or reported. If Australia is as racist as it’s being made out to be by the Indian media, why would people like me still live here?
Regards,
Ganesh Prasad
Correction in my above post:
But yes trouble is that all of you [seem to be] generalising the bad actions of any one, to the whole community/country. This generalisation [could be] a glaring error in all of the posters’ judgements here.
(in case I missed reading someone’s post)
Seth09,
I have also reported your extreme and psychopathic racism.
You give off the appearance of a sociopathic anti-social group of terrorists with your cynical and disgusting views of successful western culture.
I would personally describe you as a fanatical sociopath by the way you find a seemingly sexual pleasure at crafting the cheapest and lowest form of extended racial and personal insults while trying to leave a childish impression of sophistication in your wake.
You and your little band of psychopahic anti-western terrorists must be stopped.
MYRA: I will continue to call for the deletion of this thread and the investigation of this band of extremely racist Indian bloggers.
This language infringes on my dignity, incites extreme racial hatred and violence and violates Reuters code of conduct.
STOP YOUR FANATICAL RACISM IMMEDIATELY!!!!!!!!!
For the record, this is the kind of disgusting behavior that results in the racial violence we have seen recently in Australia towards Indians
You are all acting in a very irresponsible and provocative manner, this will make the situation for your compatriots here much more difficult.
If you can’t handle the truth about my country and the way we see foreigners behave every day, don’t initiate racist blogs on the subject from your cheap 3rd person perspectives.
I thought there is only one lunatic here constantly priding about the invincibility of Pashtuns who happen to be in hiding. Now comes another clone from the Southern part of the globe. One is in Germany and the other in Australia. Their supremacist dead weights balance each other. How funny it feels when they are accusing the others of prejudice! Can’t believe there are so many lunatics in this world! I’d say from experience that Canada is the best place in this world, though it gets quite cold there. But nothing can beat the colorfulness of my sweet home India! Enough of this topic. Time to add the wool head to the list. Let us stop responding to him the same way we deal with the Pashtun bottom worshipper.
Brian wrote:
“I have also reported your extreme and psychopathic racism.”
Thank you! I reported my post myself too!
I can’t sympathize with you just because your Indian ex-girlfriend’s parents did not let her “mix sexually” with Australian people as per the norm in your country. I’d just say, you should not have wasted two years of your life just hoping to taste Indian “cuisine”.
“For the record, this is the kind of disgusting behavior that results in the racial violence we have seen recently in Australia towards Indians”
So now you are justifying the use of violence (including murder) in order to settle differences of opinions? But as long as its not racism, it does not matter, right?
Don’t worry! I won’t report your post for I want rest of the world to see the inner thought process of such a noble ambassador of that lovely holier-than-thou Australian culture.
As for rest of your extremely hateful supremacist rant….meh!! I’ll do what KP suggested,
@KP,
Canada is a great country and so are the lovely people here!
You are reported, you are reported, and you too and you too and hey you, Im reporting you too – so there. Now lets see who else there is…..you there in the corner – don’t think you can get away with your racist hiding, you are reported!!!! We could make a 3 hour movie out of this reporting racists like McCarthy reported commies.
By the way fella, so which is it, fear or envy?
“For the record, this is the kind of disgusting behavior that results in the racial violence we have seen recently in Australia towards Indians
You are all acting in a very irresponsible and provocative manner, this will make the situation for your compatriots here much more difficult.
If you can’t handle the truth about my country and the way we see foreigners behave every day, don’t initiate racist blogs on the subject from your cheap 3rd person perspectives.”
Posted by brian-decree
So you support the attacks on Indian students ?
Why don’t you be part of that attacks also or May be you already are. Cabbie charge you more you kill him , how convenient. Immigrants don;t behave properly you use violence, If that is your standard, imagine natives living by this standard, every dead “Sir” and “Lord” of yours will be dug up from the graves and hanged again.
My apologies at starting something that I never intended. It was an off-hand comment.
That said I can’t let certain statements and perceptions pass.
kp in your post, you show a tremendous amount of ignorance (though you try and state it as though it is fact) about immigration to the West and Canada in particular. I must refute some of these most egregious statements.
“During the cold war era, Canada was not very receptive to India. So was UK. Getting visa to Canada was almost impossible for Indians. Going to the US as a graduate student was a lot easier even during the cold war days.”
Yes. We get it. You go on and on ad naseaum about how India was mistreated during the Cold War. But not everything that happened during the Cold War period had to do with Cold War politics. Diplomatic relations between Canada and India cooled off after Canadian trust was violated when India specifically misused Canadian nuclear technology to build atomic weapons. If the situation were reversed, you don’t think India would cut off relations with a country that violated such a commitment?
However, that did not have any impact on immigration policies in Canada. Immigration policies until the Trudeau government tended to favour Europeans, largely because of ties to Europe. But that did not mean there was no immigration from other parts of the world. Just that more effort was made at courting European immigrants. The Trudeau government in the late 70s (well before the end of the Cold War) changed Canadian immigration policies to open up immigration and create a balanced, meritocratic application process that was religion and ethnically blind. This change opened up immigration to Asians, Africans, Carribean residents, South Americans, etc.
The idea that the Cold War had anything to do with it is ludicrous.
“In contrast, most people who migrated to Canada or the UK in those days were from peasant and low income groups from the sub-continent. In these two countries, the wealthy groups of Indians mostly came from East Africa. They were traditionally business people dealing in jewelry, motels, restaurants, textile etc. This was a much smaller group compared to the majority immigrants into UK and Canada from South Asia. Many of these immigrants moved in and became cab drivers, factory workers etc. They were not highly educated. Many could not speak English fluently. Many were not polished or sophisticated. Many brought their unhygienic habits with them. As a result they were looked at with scorn by the locals. And they could work hard and at a much lower salary level than the locals for menial jobs. They tended to rely on community support. As a result they relied heavily on their religion (Muslims, Sikhs), ethnicity (Gujeratis, Punjabis, Bengalis), linguistic heritage (Tamils) etc. This brings in a ghetto mindset which brands people as those who refuse to integrate and remain isolated with old, traditional values. It is from such communities that many radicals have emerged (Many from Muslim community in UK that turned into terrorists, Tamil tiger supporters, Khalistan militants etc).”
Keep up this level of ignorance and I’ll start lumping you in with Rex Minor on this forum. This last paragraph is on par with something he would put out.
To start out with Canadian immigrants (and particularly South Asian immigrants to Canada) tend to have higher levels of education than the native-born population. And the South Asians who are here (and I am one of them) certainly aren’t “mostly from East Africa”. What ignorant drivel. The majority of Canada’s South Asian population (even in the 70s and 80s) came straight from the sub-continent. They are not mostly “un-educated” and they are not looked at “with scorn” by locals. If that was the case, we’d be having race issues on par with what Australia’s got. We don’t. To the extent that we have immigrants driving cabs and such, it’s largely because of a failure to integrate their educational and professional qualifications compels them to do manual labour jobs. It’s actually a situation that even most native-born Canadians are infuriated about. Most Canadians feel genuinely sad to know that their cabbie or convenience store clerk is an engineer or doctor in a country that needs such workers. It’s a standing joke that Toronto must have the most educated cabbies in the world. It’s something we’re not proud of and something the government is working hard to overcome.
You’re right that we’ve seen radicalism on our shores. Most interestingly, not a single person involved or prosecuted for terrorism in Canada has been native-born. Every single member involved with the LTTE in Toronto, or with the Khalistan movement in Vancouver were immigrants directly from the India or Sri Lanka. Unlike what’s happened in the UK, immigrant children by and large adjust particularly well in Canada, and become beer-drinking hockey players in a single generation.
Yet, despite having terrorism arrive on our shores from India and Sri Lanka, our refugee policies have never been restricted, nor has intake from these parts been lessened. Most Canadians understand these stories for what they are: oddities.
Next, you go on to insult Muslims, Sikhs, Gujaratis, Punjabis, Bengalis and so forth suggesting that they live in ghettos. There may be a large suburb or two that maybe dominated by a certain ethnicity (Brampton and Surrey with Punjabis, Scarborough with Tamils), but classifying what are largely middle-class neighbourhoods as ethnic ghettos is patently ridiculous.
While on the immigration topic, I had an interesting discussion about immigration with a British counter-part once. We talked about the fact that both our countries had seen significant immigration from South Asia (his more than mine), however, only his had seen such significant amounts of terrorism and extremism.
He posited that it had to do with the make-up of our immigrant communities. By and large (with the exceptions of Punjabi and Tamil refugees), the vast majority of South Asian migrants to Canada come from India and arrive as economic (professional) class migrants. This means they tend to be better educated and wealthier. He contrasted that to the UK where they received a huge wave of Kashmiri refugees early on and a significantly larger part of their South Asian immigrant base hails from Pakistan.
He also pointed out that since the UK is only 8 hrs by plane to Pakistan (it would take that long just to cross Canada end-to-end), that it was considerably easier to keep ties with the homeland. A situation which Canada did not have, being several oceans and continents away.
All this meant easier integration for most South Asian immigrants to Canada. And he notably pointed out that those groups that Canada has seen terrorism from are first-generation immigrants who have come straight from the homeland, in the two ethnic groups that were in a similar class to many of the Kashmiri refugees to the UK: the Punjabis and Tamils. Ethnic groups who arrived as refugees still bearing old world grudges.
Austell,
Simple Question, If you are so much offended, why do you allows Indians in Australia?
Why don’t you just put a big placard at all Australian Airports saying “Indians are not allowed” and see how it plays out?
Indians are second largest group in Australia coming to study after chinese and owing to chinese economic stabilization, Indians will amount to largest student group by far in the coming decades, Apart being your second largest importer, we will in due time become raw material for one of your largest industries, Education.
What do you do with thousands of professors and numerous universities which significantly depend on Indians coming to Australia for education?
why don’t then Australians take out rallies against Indians (or any ethnic group for that matter) demanding revoking their visas?
Do you think we are worse than people who involve in organized crime and willing to blow themselves up for want of virgin girls in heaven?
Don’t you think a country’s culture is always fluid and changing and nothing as written on stone?
Don’t you think our other qualities like hardwork,strong family bonds, enterprise building and more importantly saving for the rainy day and for the kids are more important than ripping of few dollars from Australians, oh if they do why don’t you punish them in a legal way when it is so offensive?
Owing to near zero population growth rates, isn’t it natural that intellectuals in australia thought it would be good idea to allow some other ethnic populations into australia to induce some competetion who work hard and at the same day stabilize the falling growth rate to atleast replaceable levels?
Remember how almost all of the australian growth is fired by commodity markets due to its vast natural resources, if worlds growth Engines US,China and India were to undergo any recession it will have worst blow back effect and this is the reason Australia wants to build its declining technological edge vis-a-vis Asian countries like south Korea or japan. dont u think its sensible?
You want our investments in your natural resources, our students to come for education , to take jobs as cab drivers as most australians wont do so, stabilize your falling population growth, take jobs in middle income profession like accountants, software engineers,clerks,doctors,teachers but you resent all that comes with it namely being a little greedy and saving money for their kids.
You want to have a cake and eat it too! Ask your economists what would happen if you wont allow migrants and they in turn (Indians,Chinese and other ethnic groups) stop importanting stuff from Australia.
For all the xenophobia about asians they still form less than 9% of the population and it seems you cant stand it and australian economists do not fear of its economic decline due to changing cultural attitudes but from some rabid politicans like Pauline Lee Hanson who may come to power and undo what australia has acheived.
Austell:”You Indians look like a pack of hyenas, tearing into a lone vulnerable target defending his pride, it’s truely disgusting to watch”.
Thats what happens when you enter matured blogs with foolish rantings and without rudimentary understanding about intellectual depth the bloggers here have (of every ethnicity). Read all the posts in entirety.
While I tried to reconcile and tried to provide clarifications for my comments (saying they are not authoritative and cannot be generalized) and even one Indian trying to support him for a time being, his endless rantings pushed the button beyond redemption. And again read all the posts yourself to realize how he crossed our limits of patience.
“your english grammar is terrible”.
Can we remind you that English is not our mother tongue and most indians are multi-lingual (they can understand atleast 3 or more languages) and can Australians even think about it. And moreover this is not an English language Grammar competetion but a forum to discuss various opinions.
#include
int main(void){
if (tupak_shakur == shukaib.bhutto && shukaib.bhutto == mirza_usman){
printf(“Austell = %s\n”, ROFLLMAO);
}
else{
printf(“Holy Cow!! Reuters Pak blog is so popular in paradise!”);
}
return 0;
}
You guys are all missing the point….forget all the india-aussie bashing….we’ve still to hear from Rex Minor on his ethnicity and why he believes racial superiority theories about Pashtuns.
@Austell
“I havn’t heard Brian say anything obviously derogatory about your country, other than imply the obvious truth that people know it as an overpopulated and grossly corrupt place”
Go to page number 2 for this blog’s comments section and see brian’s post of Jun 26, 2011 7:56 pm IST and read line number 5 (excluding blank lines). For your benefit I am copy pasting it here as is: “we let you come here from that @#%t hole of a country called India”. Is this not OBVIOUSLY derogatory by your standards?? May be that’s the difference between a country made of non-violence and a country made of…..well, we all know history of Australia.
It blows my mind that on one hand people like you claim to be representing majority in your country and being unhappy with Indians and on other had your government is permitting or rather encouraging your universities to INVITE (and NOT just allow) more and more students from India. Seems contradictory. It seems as if some intelligent ones in Australia do actually consider Indians equal in intellect to themselves.
By the way do you know that India is largest importer of cereals from Australia and China is the largest importer of iron/steel from Australia. Can your government afford a ban on imports from these two countries. Your so called paradise is NOT because of your culture, its a lie to say so. Your so called Paradise is because of your sheer good luck that ur land has so much resources beneath it and because there are SO MANY Indians and Chinese to consume those resources.
Someone intelligent said that root of all anger is always fear. So what is it that are you afraid of?
P.S.
I will report my own post as soon as it is posted so as to help the WHITE Australian man.
KeithZ: “You go on and on ad naseaum about how India was mistreated during the Cold War. But not everything that happened during the Cold War period had to do with Cold War politics. Diplomatic relations between Canada and India cooled off after Canadian trust was violated when India specifically misused Canadian nuclear technology to build atomic weapons. If the situation were reversed, you don’t think India would cut off relations with a country that violated such a commitment?”
India would not cut off diplomatic relations with any country as much as possible. Heck, we have not cut off any relationship with even Pakistan. India misused Canadian nuclear technology for sure. But that has nothing to do with immigration policy. This is something that has been there all along. Every country has its own strict rules and they are dictated by geo-political situations. I had mentioned in my post that it was a lot easier to migrate to the US even during cold war days than Canada or UK. UK had the ridiculous virginity test requirement for Indian women entering their country in those days.
I do come to Vancouver BC a lot and I have a lot of my relatives settled there. Most of them are not from the elite group that you are mentioning – white collar immigrants. Many in my community rely on mutual support, run gas stations, grocery stores and move up the social ladder over a generation or two. The same case with my people in California. We have maintained our farming culture there and some of us have become major suppliers of agro-products.
Kindly do not paint difference in views as ignorance. You have your experience and I have mine. They may not provide the same perspective. This does not mean I an old-fart from the cold war era that you keep mentioning.
“The idea that the Cold War had anything to do with it is ludicrous.”
Ludicrous it might be. But cold war alliances did have an influence. You were not an Indian applying for visas to go to other countries for higher education in those days. Rejection rate was very high and for flimsy reasons. I know first hand because I have relatives who had to make many attempts before they were let in. If immigration policies were not that rigid, may be those who went in might not have hesitated about returning. Many stayed put after migrating because one never knows how immigration policies change. Now I am seeing a lot of Indians returning to India from the US and elsewhere because they know the rules are a lot more relaxed despite terrorism. Many from upper middle class are not even emigrating like before. Most of the immigration seems to be from lower rungs of the social ladder for a better chance in life and those are the ones encountering the ugly Australians.
Demographic differences do affect immigrant communities. People do tend to flock to their respective groups abroad, much like the Irish, Greeks, Italians and Polish do. They are all collectively Europeans but there is no European identity that unites people. It is their ethnic affinity that is strong. The same with people from India. There are strong ties to one’s specific group – Punjabi, Sikh, Bengali, Tamil etc. This is not a derogatory reference as you have mistakenly interpreted. This is real. And different communities deal with social interactions in their new lands of immigration differently. So when ignorant locals brand the acts of a few as that representing the whole sub-continent, counter arguments arise. People like Ganesh seem to be from the higher ranks of the social order and are highly educated. So they encounter a different set of people and they do not venture into circumstances that low scale people do often. Their experience is very different. And based on experience, everyone’s perspective is different. I have had garbage bag thrown at me in Sydney long ago. I have been mugged in Philadelphia. If someone asked me about my perspective, it will be based on my experience. And when many encounter a similar experience, a collective perspective emerges. Indian view of Australia or Canada or UK arises from such a collective experience over the years.
In New Jersey, immigration of Indians is very similar to that to UK. Most people are from business communities in India and take up low scale jobs to get in. And immigration happens through marriage and bringing the whole family in. They had a dot buster movement there staged by locals a decade or more ago. Most conflicts arise at the lower levels of economy. Life is rough and people can easily get agitated.
Most wealthy people who came into UK (and to a small extent to Canada and USA) in the 1970s were from East Africa. In those days, Indians were just beginning to make in roads through higher education opportunities. Only when the info tech boom hit the roof did many middle class and lower class Indians found and opportunity to emigrate on a large scale.
You may not agree with my observation. But it does not make my perspective an ignorant one. I am from India and I know the pulse of the land much better than you do. And I do give credit to your views as a Canadian and welcome that perspective. I do see a marked contrast between your view and that of the couple of Australians here. And that is a small enough sample that displays the differences between the cultures between the two places. I have mentioned before that Canada is the best country in an overall sense. I appreciate that in you and fellow Canadians to have made it that way. I hope the rest of the world follows what Canada and the US have done towards immigrants. Hope the Australians learn too that over time, contribution from immigrants will only make things better for them.
Small, little things might be an irritant. But in the long run people learn the values of the culture they have moved into and spread that value. That is how Gandhi and Nehru realized the need for independence and democratic values – by getting exposed to a Western culture that had those aspects well developed. They had to struggle to be accepted as equals and eventually it happened.
Mr. Austell,
I wonder how your country would have faired without the abundant natural resources in terms of minerals and ores. I do agree with you that in general Western Europeans who colonized the other parts of the world, have done very well for themselves by using technology and scientific methods. They also have good democratic systems and values that involve courtesy for others, good hygienic standards etc.
I also agree that India has tremendous amounts of squalor, filth and what not. Ours is a very ancient culture and yours is very recent.
You have the advantage of being protected from all sides by the ocean and using modern military, you are able to protect your borders from invasions. No one has attempted to conquer Australia ever since it was founded. Whereas in Europe and other places, countries have been invaded for resources and territorial dominance. Our country has been invaded many times over thousands of years.
You really cannot look down upon people because of what they have got. Our system has evolved based on its own circumstances and surroundings. Your country has evolved in its own way, free of conflicts with other countries, not facing invasions, relatively peaceful life and so on. I’d say New Zealand is even a better country than yours. They have a good mix of natives and European settlers and the natives have not been wiped out unlike Australia.
Your compatriot did get nasty and he got his courtesy returned. That’s all. And in defense he is screaming out for help calling us racists. Instead of having contempt, it would do good if you people try to understand others and help them come out of the misery that you see them in and are averse to. By an accident of birth you are where you are and others are where they are. I don’t think you as an individual has done anything significant to help your country. If you had been born in a filthy environment, I am sure you too would be spitting on the walls and taking a leak on the streets.
What is important is to look at how fortunate you are and how unfortunate many others are for no mistake of theirs. May be a little compassion instead of arrogance or contempt would do a lot of good.
Our country was divided by the British colonialists using religion as the weapon. This was so that they could use the region that became Pakistan as a staging ground and garrison against the Russians. In fact the whole world was colonized by the divide and rule method. India is no exception to that. The British walked in at the death large empires in the sub-continent and picked up all the rubble to their benefit. One proof that Pakistan is the garrison for Western powers is evident even today – it never became a nation. It has been a military nation. But that’s another story.
When you say India’s image outside is made up of Taj Mahal, filth and poverty, I’d like to tell you that the image of Australia is also filled with the Sydney Opera House, Crocodile Dundee, Boomerang and rough talking/bad mouthing and xenophobic people. I am not making this up. That’s the image. Everything is not positive in the global outlook.
Enough said.
@Austell
“We use our cows to uphold our health and economy, not worship them like lunatics”
What can I say now, you need to visit India that’s all I can say. Cows are not worshipped anymore. On the contrary India is a big exporter of beef to middle east. But again you are not listening.
While I do not deny the shortcoming in our system in India but in OUR culture we do not call names to countries. Have you seen any Indian here calling names to any countries not even to Pakistan despite that situation in Pakistan is nearly 10 times worse than in India. Instead of being sorry for the rudeness u r justifying it and that is enough to show you ever ignorant attitude. Criticizing is one thing and being rude and derogatory is another. As I told brian that if u want respect for your culture then learn to respect others as well. And I never called his remark as racist. I only said it was derogatory and uncalled for; but it seems u r too presuming to read and understand properly. And don’t worry about the world. Australia is NOT the whole world.
As for culture; it is always an EFFECT of economy and NEVER a cause. Economy changes culture and NOT vice-versa. Seems you are too proud to accept the truth.
“And don’t forget it was religious civil war that led to the splitting of your country into India and Pakistan”
Boy, you need lessons in India and Pakistan history. Civil war was INVENTED to divide the country by a group of narrow minded people in India at that time. But nevertheless I don’t expect u to understand, not anymore.
Anyway I am in no mood for an uncivil discussion with someone blinded with rage. I only c anger and mostly ignorance in your posts.
Suggestion: If you dislike India and Indians so much then why don’t u ask your government to penalise those Australian universities which INVITE and enrol Indian students. Ask your government to penalise the Australian universities that award scholarships to Indian students.
Sayonara.
P.S.
I will report this post as well. Happy WHITE Australian??
Thanks Austell,
This is just getting really freaky… look at the length they are prepared to go to to excuse what they’ve said about Australians.
Look at the detail they are prepared to go into on subjects not even remotely connected to what is being said by us.
Look at the rudeness they try to pass of as intellectual conversation because they are proud of the way they have worded a particular insult. And the disgusting things being said about my Indian ex-girlfriend.
You would think they would see this as a sign that I am not racist, that I am willing to date an Indian girl for two years.
But no this doesn’t even register…. somehow it’s all about western colonialism and “what if?” this and “if you hate us so much then why not?” that.
Who the hell said we hate Indians?????? Most of them that I have got to know are polite and respectful. It is usually just the young men who have recently migrated and don’t speak our language or understand our culture yet who cause problems.
The issue here is not about us hating Indians. Australians have been accused of being racist, and I am defending us by saying that opinion is racist because it doesn’t take into account the reasons for conflict between some Australians and some immigrants.
I spelt these reasons out VERY clearly, and you persisted with racist remarks about my countrymen.
“What if Australia didn’t have any resources?”
Ok then compare Australia to a country that Does have vast resources… somewhere close by… say Indonesia. Why are they not as successful as us?
We “have the advantage of being protected from all sides by the ocean” do we? Did you get your degree in geo-strategical warfare in a cereal box?
Australia is famous for being almost impossible to defend exactly because of this reason, this is common knowledge.
As is the fact that we are loved and respected all over the world (India is NOT the world). And yes I have travelled the world and seen this first hand son.
We are known predominately for our animals, strange cultural quirks, toughness and dominance in many sports.
All you do is veil insults in apparently intelligent conversation. On the one hand you say you’re not being racist, then you turn around and say something like
” I’d say New Zealand is even a better country than yours. They have a good mix of natives and European settlers and the natives have not been wiped out unlike Australia.”
Wiped out? Where do these crazy accusations come from? Almost as crazy as kpsinghs accusations about my Indian partner.
Let me tell you something boy, her name was pardeep kaur, she was a beautiful girl, and we split up because I would not take her virginity.
She was held back socially in a big way by her parents and I no longer wanted a relationship of that intensity and secrecy. She went on to graduate from law school and move to the UK to escape her parents so she could live a normal, free life. She has not returned in almost 8 years.
007xxx, I don’t have the time or the patience for your conspiracies or sarcasm. I will address your idiocy though! I love this:
“As for culture; it is always an EFFECT of economy and NEVER a cause. Economy changes culture and NOT vice-versa. Seems you are too proud to accept the truth.”
You seem so sure of yourself??
So what you’re saying is that having a technologically advanced culture of conquest and imperialism will not benefit a state’s economy??
I’ll dumb it down for you… If my culture produces advanced ships and weapons like say imperial britain’s, and our culture uses those weapons to colonize countries say like India… that will not benefit Britain’s economy??
Well thanks for the vindication!
P.S. KPSingh – I believe Austell was not “by accident of birth” born in Australia, he became a citizen, pay attention.
Speaking for myself.
This guy has cussed Indians, Aboriginees – humiliated their way of life which he and his like have usurped, called them cave men – and doesn’t like Libyans either, but oh my gosh don’t call him racist. He prefers to be labelled a member of the reformist White culture which has given the world nothing but goodies. His logic is very simple – he is free to criticise other cultures, call them names, if someone already in Australia says Autralians are good people its acceptable but whoever says Australians are not good and in fact considered boorish by many others is racist! Then comes the threat – don;t make life difficult for those of you already here – so what are you going to do? Batter them to oblivion? Take a hike.
Aren’t the white Australians also immigrants into Australia, even though centuries ago. And you abuse the original inhabitants? How respectful is that of your own original culture?
Just who do you think you are fooling? Only yourself. Re read your writings and take an honest look at them before calling in re-inforcements or asking for the thread to be shut. You are also feel free to correct my gammer! You started off pompously and went out with a whimper yelling “Momma”
What the heck are you guys arguing over Aussies not liking the Indians? what is this discussion about? it is off topic. Here is something that matters;
Brig. Aftab of Pakistan Army describes how millitants in Pakistan recieve support from Afghanistan.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yW0cDh31u Zg
Now get back to topic like good boys, this blog is about Pakistan, not India or Australia, ok. and take it easy everyone.