Taliban talks: the new mirage in Afghanistan

June 18, 2011

Afghan President Hamid Karzai has just said in public what many have been saying for months in private, that the United States is holding talks with the Taliban to try to reach a settlement to the decade-long war in Afghanistan.  “Peace talks are going on with the Taliban. The foreign military and especially the United States itself is going ahead with these negotiations,” he said in a speech in Kabul.

We have been hearing reports about these talks for months. In the climate of disinformation that threads through the Afghan war, it is hard to say exactly when they started, but I first heard last November that the Americans had begun direct talks with representatives of the Taliban and if that was correct, they must have begun some time before that. 

 Such direct talks have long been promoted by many Afghan experts as a necessary but not sufficient condition for a political settlement. While western countries have argued that political reconciliation must be Afghan-led, the Americans are the power-brokers, and unlike the administration in Kabul, the only ones who have the authority to deliver on any concessions agreed in the negotiations.

And the United States has also shifted its position on the Taliban — effectively admitting that the movement can be treated separately from al Qaeda by convincing the U.N.  Security Council to split its sanctions list imposing asset freezes and travel restrictions into two.

All that said, there is a danger that the U.S. Taliban talks become the new mirage in Afghanistan by suggesting that a political settlement is on the horizon if only the current strategy is maintained.  According to senior diplomats involved in international discussions on Afghanistan, the talks have yet to gain any serious traction.  One diplomat said the two sides were still “gauging each other’s temperature”;  another said that, “there are no serious load-bearing talks going on.”

And despite U.S. insistence that its military campaign in Afghanistan is — to use its favourite phrases -  “turning the corner” or “gaining momentum” – one diplomat suggested that the Taliban’s ambitions were still as high as they had been before Washington sent an extra 30,000  troops. 

Unlike the role sketched out for them by western governments in which they would folded into a broader political process,  he said the Taliban were still looking for a serious stake in power.  Among their ambitions would be for Taliban leader Mullah Mohammed Omar to be rehabilitated as “Amir ul-Mu’mineen”, or supreme leader of the faithful, even if not directly running the government - an idea talked about back in early 2010.

A report by Antonio Giustozzi and Christoph Reuter published by the Afghan Analysts Network backs up that assertion that the Taliban’s ambitions remain high. (the full pdf report is here). The report focuses on inroads made by the Taliban in the Afghan north – well beyond their Pashtun heartland in the south.

It argues that the Taliban had been effective in opening their ranks to non-Pashtuns in the north, bringing in ethnic groups like Uzbeks and Tajiks who were traditionally hostile to the Islamist movement when they ruled Afghanistan from 1996-2001.

“The Taliban appear to have a clear strategy aimed at destabilising northern Afghanistan. Moving north, and thereby covering non-Pashtun areas, strengthens their claim to be the legitimate government of Afghanistan and to be fighting for the whole country, not just for an ethnic group or a specific region. The Taliban are not only fighting the Afghan government – they are seeking to replace it with their own administration. This, they do with astonishing effectiveness,” the report says.

The United States is hoping to convince Pakistan to lean on the Taliban, which it says is based in and around the town of Quetta in Baluchistan, to take part in serious negotiations. It also wants the Pakistan Army to push further into the tribal areas bordering eastern Afghanistan to eliminate sanctuaries used both by Afghan insurgents and foreign fighters, including al Qaeda.

Convincing Pakistan to work with the United States on either or both of these objectives has become more difficult after the souring of relations which followed the May 2 raid by U.S. forces who found and killed Osama bin Laden in the Pakistani town of Abbottabad. But even assuming the two countries manage to repair relations – and both have an interest in a stable Afghanistan – there is another problem.

Pakistan has long complained that even if it were to drive insurgents out of the tribal areas, they would find refuge in eastern Afghanistan, leaving it vulnerable to counter-attack unless the United States military shored up its own presence there. 

A report by Gilles Dorronsoro (pdf) paints a gloomy picture of eastern Afghanistan — where U.S. troops have been thinned out in order to allow them to concentrate on population centres in the south.  U.S.-led troops in southern Afghanistan, he argues, are fighting the same Taliban that it sees as having a role in a political settlement, while allowing more aggressive players  – like the Haqqani network, along with elements from al Qaeda and the Pakistani militant gorup  Lashkar-e-Taiba – to thrive in eastern Afghanistan.

“Despite a lack of U.S. interest in these (eastern) regions, their strategic importance is infinitely greater than that of Helmand or even Kandahar.The importance of the Eastern Triangle is due to its location between the capital and the Pakistani insurgent sanctuaries, and its importance in facilitating the passage of insurgents from Pakistan.”

Dorronsoro also notes that many of these eastern Afghan border areas follow a Salafist tradition of Islam – as distinct from the Deobandism followed by the Taliban – giving them an ideological affinity with Salafist groups like al Qaeda and the Lashkar-e-Taiba, and raising the scope for them to become a new sanctuary for international jihadis. 

“The final aspect of the insurgency’s actions in the east is the presence of transnational jihadist groups in the border regions. Al Qaeda, in particular, has returned to Afghanistan and is cooperating with the Taliban on individual operations … Lashkar-e-Taiba has long been present in Nuristan and Kunar and,less obviously, in Nangarhar Province, in the district of Khogiani. In any case, the area now represents a rather secure sanctuary capable of welcoming important leaders in the future, which would be a symbolic coup,” he writes.

To sum all that up, despite the intensive counter-insurgency campaign in the Taliban’s heartland in the south, the movement’s demands for political power remain high. The Taliban is increasing its presence in the north. And in the east, international jihadis are carving out a new sanctuary, expanding out from their original bases in the tribal areas of Pakistan. If all those reports prove to be correct, or even some of them,  you could argue that the position of the United States and its allies in Afghanistan is getting worse, rather than better, as it prepares to start gradually withdrawing troops.

I first wrote in early 2009  about how regional experts were saying the United States should hold negotiations with the Taliban to reach a political settlement.  Many others must have done so before that.  Now that the United States has embarked on those talks, rather than asking whether they offer a way out of the war, perhaps we also need to ask another less palatable question.  Have they left it too late?

152 comments

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War is expensive to conduct, especially when it is run thousands of miles away from home. The logistics involved is very costly. I think all parties involved are tired. The only thing none of us know is who took the initiative for a settlement talk – the US or the Taliban. If the US offered the hand to the Taliban, it would be declared as victory by the rodents hiding underground in this region. If on the other hand, the Taliban had reached out to the US, then it means they have no more energy left but to give up the fight. Ultimately it does not matter who made the first move.

None of us know what the terms and conditions of the talk are. In general the Taliban has been demanding complete withdrawal of all foreign forces from Afghanistan as a pre-condition. If they are talking, it means this precondition has been waived. It also means that the US might get to keep a small force in Afghanistan beyond 2014. If the US leaves entirely, there is more than fifty percent chance of the Taliban and the Northern Alliance to resume the old tug of war between them. There are lot of scores that remain to be settled.

Once a settlement is reached and the US halts its war in the region, it will be interesting to see what the radical groups inside Pakistan will do. LeT has grown bigger than before and it definitely will not want a neutral or peaceful Afghanistan. It would want war hardened Afghans in its service to resume its offensive in Kashmir.

And it will be interesting to see what the US will do with Pakistan. Because leaving Pakistan to its own elements is a big mistake. Restraints will have to be placed so that Pakistan’s “rogue elements” in the military and ISI do not start the old game all over again. If Pakistan can be controlled and constrained, Afghanistan definitely has a chance to go towards normalcy. Pakistan should be forced to give up its hostility towards India and seek peace in the region. Stringent conditions must be added for any foreign aid to Pakistan so that its military does not get into evil acts similar to what it had pursued in the past.

Afghanistan settlement relies heavily in making sure Pakistan is contained. Otherwise, the US might be forced to come back to this region and much more ferociously this time.

Posted by KPSingh01 | Report as abusive

@Myra
a good write as usual of the breaking news in UNo1

A smoke screen and the repeat of old and boring subject. Talibans or the Pashtoons do not negotiate, never have in their history, their man is always responsible for foreign contacts. Hamid Karzai belongs to the Taliban tribes, an influential and powerful, but dependent on other tribes in the south. Hamid Karzai has been negtiating with the USA and supporting their demand for unconditional departure, while simultaneously expanding their hold on the non Pashtoon territory. You are the first journalist to bring it out on paper. The Americans have a very limited time span to act. The talibans or Pashtoons do not look favourable to loosers. Pakistan is weaker than ever before in their history a la Pashtoons in their tribal territory and Afghanistan.

Pakistan under Kyani and Zardari are now experiencing the destabilisation of the entire region as well as facing the spectre of a civil war and therefore disruption in supplies of water and alcohal to the GI’s in this hot summer.

Rex Minor

Posted by pakistan | Report as abusive

More news. Pakistan has tipped off militants again.

http://politics.newsvine.com/_news/2011/ 06/18/6889644-pakistanis-tip-off-militan ts-at-bomb-building-plants-#comments

Their excuse is that the need to seek permission from the tribal elders before sending in troops (LOL!). These guys can come up excuses of all kinds.

Read the comments from Americans in that article. Things have changed.

Posted by KPSingh01 | Report as abusive

[...] end of this year, if the NATO alliance kept making military advances on the ground. For a blog see here (Additional reporting by Sayed Hassib, Editing by Mark Trevelyan and Anthony Boadle) South [...]

[...] Taken from: Taliban talks: the new mirage in Afghanistan | Pakistan: Now or Never? [...]

Author,
Your own country is a much (much) bigger problem to the world than Afghanistan which is a minor problem. No point in saying after May 2nd it has become more difficult.

Al-Qeda boss was found right next to your military academy. No one should be surprised if Zawahiri is found behind the Kitchen cabinet in Kayani’s house.

Posted by netizen | Report as abusive

1. i agree with the title, theres no way taliban will let the us continue to have any role in afghanistan and will demand total withdrawal
2. according to the nation editorial today they claim that as per david ignatius usa is about to capitlate to pakistani demands on afghanistan n kashmir

Posted by buntyj | Report as abusive

ps- kayani is reported to have told the visiting german minister that while pakistan would like a stable afghanistan it cant give up or compromise its strategic interests (depth, haqqanis, afghan taliban, etc)

Posted by buntyj | Report as abusive

With no intention to digress, Here is an interesting article.
http://www.dawn.com/2011/06/19/smokers-c orner-young-turks-to-the-rescue.html

I wish the Author should also travel to India. He doesn’t need to write an article, he just needs to change Turkey with India in the above article and send to Dawn for reprinting it!!

Posted by sensiblepatriot | Report as abusive

[...] Präsident Hamid Karzai bestätigte kürzlich Friedensgespräche der USA mit den [...]

Fools are the leaders of the Nations, who reckon that they can commit aggression against the Nation of Pashtoons or Germans, and later return to thei land and live in triumph and peace. American must roll back everything they have committed against Afghanistan which was illegal and immoral in international relations.

Rex Minor

Ps
Mr Patriot your quoting Mr Paracha article in Dawn belittles your judgement of this pygmy 5th columnist lay journalist of Pakistan, with te name Parachi. He has not even recognised that today’s Turkey is ruled by the most powerful Islamic political party of our times and is likely to succeed in reforming the current constitution in a coming referendum, the so called secular one. The intellectual jugglary of lay Pakistani
journalss do not even know that all european constitutions are based on and reflect the values of Ibrahimic religions. Secularism in Europe simply means that the church and the State are separate, each responsible for their domains.

Posted by pakistan | Report as abusive

@Mr Patriot
India is a far better secular country today than Turkey or other muslim countries. Your quotation is accurate, considering that Hinduism now encompases Atheism and agnostic jews and christians in its midst, perhaps indian muslims as well one day? This is no different from the vision of Islam that one day the entire world would bow to the will of God almighty the creator of the Universe.

Rex Minor

Posted by pakistan | Report as abusive

Here is a very sensible article by a Pakistani journalist. Thick skulls must read this and realize how they have been misled.

http://www.dawn.com/2011/06/20/for-pakis tan-time-to-try-india-as-a-friend.html

If Pakistan does not seek peace with its neighbors sincerely, nothing will settle down in this region.

Posted by KPSingh01 | Report as abusive

From one American to the world we call AFPAK,

I’m going home. I don’t care about your tribal differences, your attraction to violent philosophers, or lack of democratic values. I’m going home. You’re left to deal with each other. But the next time you send your crazy uncles over here to atone for some symbollic affront to your extreme religous, I’ll be back. Your understanding of violence will vaporize with YOUR misunderstanding of why we came into your backyard in the first place. You seem to be a region of tribes facing international norms well beyond a generation or two of change on your part. Because you refuse to keep your trouble local, we’ll be back. Change, martyr or just stay home. I’ll try to do the same.

Posted by pHenry | Report as abusive

Mr. pHenry,

I wish your policy makers, politicians, strategic planners and the Pentagon/CIA thought along the same lines as you do – stay where you are and others stay where they are. What you are seeing is the result of decades of manipulative measures taken by your successive governments that has messed this place up beyond recognition. They are biting you because your people trained them to bite. Wish you go home and campaign to keep your government focused on domestic issues and stop messing with the rest of the world. Cold war is over.

Posted by KPSingh01 | Report as abusive

Mr.KPS in gh01, We are probably both half right. But how many times has the USA inherited someone else’s mess. The cold war will never be “over”. Russia pushed weak Europe around until we had to step in. They retreated under the weight of financial ruin, not just muscle. Oil has brought them roaring back. Fundamental Islam started pushing ME countries around in the ’70s. How are you going to get them to stay home? Or do you even want them? I thought the Arab spring would free us to come home while you guys settled your own problems. I suspect if every adult voted in each ME country you could do-it-yourself. But I also suspect some freely elected ME government will eventually conclude that peace without Palestine is impossible. I can get over Japan, Germany and Italy, the “cold war” and Russia. Maybe you guys can get Jakob, Jesus and Mohommed’s Jerusalem to a Vatican City neutral. It would help if Canaan in general suffered equally. Should Syria, Lebanon, Jordan, Saudia Arabia, Iran, Iraq or Egypt “get over” anything? Rightly or wrongly we in America will defend Israel and oil supplies equally. I hope we get over it all and have a quiet life teaching our grandkids how we finally remembered we are all cousins.

Posted by pHenry | Report as abusive

I’ll be back.

Posted by Matrixx | Report as abusive

I thought “I’ll be back” was a quote from The Terminator, not from The Matrix ;-).

Regards,
Ganesh Prasad

Posted by prasadgc | Report as abusive

Meh,

It’ll be some weird accomodation with disparate Taliban groups. Some will get political positions. Some will get money. Many will get nothing.

The main impact of this is what comes next. I’m fairly sure there’ll be lots of gloating in Pakistan and among the Taliban about the USA “losing”.

In reality, pulling out of Afghanistan, opens up strategic options that the US and the rest of the West never had. They are no longer responsible for the money pit that is Afghanistan. They can attack Pakistan’s tribal areas with more impunity. And they can treat Pakistan (and label it) as a hostile party.

I will not be surprised at all if Pakistan ends up on the list of state sponsors of terrorism in 5 years. It’s bound to happen because the PA just won’t be able to resist pulling another 1989 again and re-directing some Afghan veterans into India, or out West. Eventually, they’ll kill one to many Westerners and the governments in this part of the world will come under enormous pressure to sever ties with Pakistan. Aid will get cut, sanctions will come on, voters in international forums (UN, IMF) will go the other way.

We can hope that reasonable accomodation can be reached. And I’m sure something can be worked out with the various Taliban groups. But I’m not so sure about the direction Pakistan is heading.

Posted by kEiThZ | Report as abusive

Pakistan arrests brigadier over Islamist ties

http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/06/2 1/us-pakistan-brigadier-idUSTRE75K3SM201 10621

Posted by punjabiyar | Report as abusive

A senior USA congressman asks the USA secretary of defence and I quote; For how long the USA should be providing aid to Pakistan if its Govt. tells us lies all the time. The secretary of Defence replies that Govts. tells lies to other Govts. and that is how the business is done,end of quote.

The current USA Govt. is now regarded the leading liar in the west. The congressmen first deny their extra marital sex affairs and then come out and declare that they had lied. The USA admin. foreign policy is based on lies and therefore people with a lawyer profession are prefered to work in the state dept.

Rex Minor

Posted by pakistan | Report as abusive

http://www.vanityfair.com/politics/featu res/2011/07/osama-bin-laden-201107

When you have guys like Christoper Hitchens being this vocal about Pakistan, you know the public mindset about Pakistan in the USA is changing.

The piece, has been criticized by the likes of Christine Fair:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/c-christin e-fair/the-road-from-abbottabad-_b_88125 6.html

But I daresay that Hitchens is probably starting to reflect common sentiment.

Posted by kEiThZ | Report as abusive

@Rex Minor

Here are your great Pashtun warriors:

http://www.csmonitor.com/World/Asia-Sout h-Central/2011/0622/Are-Pakistan-s-Talib an-using-children-as-weapons

And forensics have also shown that a large number of suicide bombers tend to be children with cognitive defects (retardation, Downes syndrome, etc.).

Posted by kEiThZ | Report as abusive

@Keithz: The article is indeed quite scathing. It’s hard to believe that it was penned by Hitchens.

Posted by Mortal1 | Report as abusive

@Mortal

Now Hitchens is a bit unfair and takes license with some facts (as pointed out by Fair). And he is a die-hard atheist, so overtly religious societies and countries are particularly grating to him.

But here’s the thing, you have magazines like Vanity Fair publishing huge pieces critical of Pakistan, by authors who tend to have slightly more than tangential knowledge of Pakistan. That to me, says that Pakistan is coming into the common discourse (just like Afghanistan), except it’s not in a good way.

For example, contrast this with India. Now as much as the Indian government (or even some Indians) would like to hide the crushing poverty that persists there, most people around the world are fully aware of it. But they are also aware of its tremendous economic growth, it’s growing cultural self-awareness (Bollywood is starting to become as much of a soft power tool as Hollywood), and so on. So outsiders are starting to see India in all its shades, good and bad.

However, the stream of negativity from Pakistan is constant (just type Pakistan into Google News). The only good news story that ever seems to come from Pakistan has to do with cricket. And even that’s not a daily occurrence.

Posted by kEiThZ | Report as abusive

Rex:”considering that Hinduism now encompases Atheism and agnostic jews and christians in its midst, perhaps indian muslims as well one day”.

Few would know that, Indian culture had almost made muslims part of their DNA with Islam coalesced to Indian culture for more than 1000 years. It had affected changes in the attitudes of Hindus (both positive and negative) and gave a new tranformative culture. It itself got affected from Middle eastern religion to growing sufi pigmentations in entire south Asia.
Just before the advent of the political Islam that begun with the defeat of the mughal empire by the british and official dishonouring of the same (It was in terminal decline for 2 centuries which begun with Aurengzeb), Muslims have slowly been absorbed into hindu society but as a distinct caste group.

Even today muslims in rural areas are so indistinguishable (Muslim forward castes like khans, Muslim OBC’s like darjee(tailors), and dalit muslims)with other socio-cultural groups in Hinduism that any attempt to see them as different is prone to disaster (A disaster which we already did). Muslims shared their joys and sorrows with hindu neighbours, celebrated common festivals when children of both religions flew kites in basanth, took refuge in Godmen’s (Baba’s) words for having children, shared the sorrow of being oppressed by feudal classes both Hindu and Muslim.

A small section of Muslim Middle classes working as employees and clerks under Muslim kings of british India were scared that once India becomes Independent, it would resort to repression of muslims, the people who were dominant in all political positions collecting taxes, passing judgements and punishments to the public. This small section played to the tunes of british empire which eventually culminated into partition based on religion.
When some people say Muslims have to be amalgamated into Indian society, it pains me when I think about this because after successful integration which lasted about 1000 years it was simply undone due to partition and we need to begin that again.
Not that I am man living in history, but hope people will appreciate the struggle Indian culture had undertaken when they Integrated vastly different culture but still due to imperial powers resulted in a state which is now back to square one.

Posted by sensiblepatriot | Report as abusive

@Mr Patriot

I have no qualms with your comments, am even getting the sense we are always talking about one people of different faiths, living in two sovereign countries having mostly common problems but different prioraties and future outlooks. Every country in the world has problems within its borders and those in the neighbouring land.

Both India and Pakistan in my opinion must curb the use of its military against their citizens, and undertake genuine reforms since the current miliary represents and has the colonial structure. The use of words such as insurgents and radicals, terrorists and suicide bombers is a western construct, not a reality.
We should also be aware that any unity and nearness, economic cooperation or joint energy projects can only take place if the people of the two countries so wish. After the ww2 war there has been a desire to put an end to the hostilities and this took a hell of lotof time and efforts from the civil societies to engage with one another for reconciliation. My observation on this and several other blogs is that this hope is not very near. Do they represent the majority, I have not the slightest clue.

I have always regarded India and Pakistan, the countries of future and once the stability is restored in the region, there is no reason why a vision of integrating them into a union similar to the one which has emerged in Europe after the end of the cold war. Mind you we have lots of difficulties, a common currency but independent economies. Europe cannot exclude Russia from the Union and has USA objection for very close Union with Russia, whereas the UK always comes up with special relations with the USA. Not to forget that the Queen of England is still the head of state of Australia and Canada.

We have seen how a rag tag force of so called Afghan talibans have got the world power on the run after a period of ten years persistent resistance. Pakistan army, on the other hand has started asking permission from the individual tribal chiefs for any intrusion, but not given up the role of playing an under dog role for the USA. The Pakistan talibans are the bad boys now and how long this conflict is going to spread and worsen, it is very difficult to forecast a peaceful closure?

Rex Minor

Posted by pakistan | Report as abusive

@keithZ
I do not mean to be rude. But usualy I do not feel comfortable with bloggers who have a preset mind about a people or a country based on prejudice, not based on history or any knowledge or even an effort to acquire a knowledge, other than by scanning newspapers for a piece of dirt to fit onto ones collage of degraded philosophy.

Besides, your statement of having a military background, reminded me that such category of people loose x percent of the y material which is contained in the upper chamber of the brain during their hard training marching up and down on mataled ground with their heavy boots. Therefore, while they make excellent soldiers to obey any orders given from the superiors, their use in the civil arena is very limited and certainly not very free in independent thinking.

What is the difference between a suicide commando of the army and a suicide commando of the resistance. About childrenad woma cliche, the world has had enough from the zionists media of this world.

Even the so called Alexander the great was intelligent enough to take a muntaneous route by passing the main route where tribal snipers on both side of the valley can annihlate the entire army. The Alex route today is used by the smugglers peddling semi precious stones to Peshawar and taking back the supply of tea and sugar.
On a more serious note, one can learn a lot from Sensible Patriot, who is mostly coming out with serious stuff, not larifari.

Rex Minor

Posted by pakistan | Report as abusive

@Rex Minor

You don’t mean to be rude but you unfailingly so. You are also extremely racist (against Blacks, Jews, Indians, etc.) and a racial supremacist (with respect to Pashtuns).

You suggest that I’m a single-minded automaton simply because you know my profession? Who the hell are you to make the suggestion? You don’t know me. You don’t know my personal history.

How arrogant of you to assume that mere training displaces the concept of free will and independent thought. This is what you think of soldiers? That they are robots? Perhaps where you live. But we don’t have conscripts in my country. That is certainly not how I was trained (perhaps someday you’ll understand the concept of a lawful order), and certainly not how I lead personnel under my command (if you ever have to resort to mere rank authority you have failed as a leader).

It is utterly disgusting too that you draw parallels beteween suicide bombers and soldiers. There is simply no parallel. A soldier goes out on a mission with a desire to return home, with a sincere wish to minimize harm to all but the enemy, and with a genuine compulsion to help the innocent. Yet, you draw moral equivalency to people who would kidnap 10 year old girls and attempt to forcefully employ them as murderers while simultaneously bringing them their own demise? I don’t even have words to describe such a disgusting and utterly contemptible attempt at moral equivalency. The only people I could think of, worthy of such mental gymnastics, would be the Nazis.

As for talking history. Let’s just say that I have very strong familial ties to the sub-continent. I was born there and raised nearby. So don’t go thinking that I don’t know the history of the region. The only reason I won’t reveal more of myself is because bigots like yourself see every opinion through a racially tinged lens.

Posted by kEiThZ | Report as abusive

@Myra

The above is exactly why I don’t frequent these blogs as much (even though you write some excellent pieces). What’s the point when you tolerate outright racism that violates Reuters own codes on here.

You tolerate the likes of Rex Minor who not only propounds racist and racial supremacist viewpoints but actually takes pride in them. He thinks it’s okay to say so as long as he precedes it with, “I don’t mean to be rude…” And you don’t erase comments or links to rupeenews anymore despite that website offering up content (Jewish blood libel for instance) that would violate hate speech laws in most countries (including my own).

It’s one thing to be open to different viewpoints (and we have some solid discussions with vigorously defended viewpoints here) and quite another to give every racist and bigot a platform from which to spew hate.

You know quite well how other media forums would treat the two offenders I have named above. But yet you refuse even the slightest bit of censure (like deleting their offending posts)? I am tempted to conclude that you tolerate or share their racist viewpoints.

Posted by kEiThZ | Report as abusive

You tolerate the likes of Rex Minor

Posted by kEiThZ
=
I disagree with you here. She does not “tolerate” the Islamofascist minor. She subsribes to most pro-jihad, Islamist aggression on non-muslims. Of course she is doing this from the liberty and comfort offered by the non-muslim societies.

She is blatantly hostile to Indians, and concerns of Indians. On repeated challenging in last 3 years, she would take pro-terrorist, pro-jihad positions or simply not respond to Indians as she has been doing lately.

One thing she hasn’t tolerated in the past is Indians like me pointing out her pro-jihad, pro-terrorist view points.

Posted by netizen | Report as abusive

Leftist extremists enjoying the freedoms, free speech offered by non-muslim societies in the West and India support Islamic jihad and terrorism. Nothing new here.

Minor mullah is best ignored as advised by KPS and GP.

Posted by netizen | Report as abusive

Rex,
I am not calling you a pakistani,if I ever did, I apologise to you.I was only perhaps addressing people with views similiar to Average pakistanis. My intention was no way to paint you with the same brush.

Rex, With all your Understanding about history, I fail to understand you in some aspects. Your support for pushtoons seems like an oddity to me, or I was unable to understand clearly what you were saying.

1.Do you say pushtoons are greatest fighters based on history, if so Roman Empire was greatest in its day who were overthrown by german tribes who themselves were defeated by tribes of other ethnicity.

2.Is it because of cultural superiority that they defeat foreigners, If so Vietnames kong were also far greater fighters in the forests, wouldn’t it be because of the local advantage that insurgents have over foreign forces.

3.Do you say they draw their strength from Islam and regimented order created by talibanized army.Or is it because a nation state cannot be formed out of them that any country however powerful cannot restore order there.

4.Are they destined to be savages killing foreigners when the foreigners invade (owing to terrorism) and warring and killing among themselves when foreigners retreat. Or is it because a dangerous and diabolical Islamic strain has been perpetuated among the population who just 50 years ago were more civilized than feudalistic punjabis.

5.Are they destined to be socially backward repressing the woman and minorities in particular (harara’s etc) and cannot be taught civility (or western atheism & secularism), or is it that world has played power politics in the region owing to its strategic location and as kpsingh01 once said, “It has become a road of invasion for invading armies”, which always competed in controlling afghanistan and never allowed civility to prevail.

6.What the world must do if countries like pakistan uses them as training centres for their proxy wars with India and considers these lands as strategic depth and assumes a strong afghanistan is automatically not in the best interests of pakistan, and what must be done if one more attack is found to have its source in Afghanistan.

I have read lot of your posts but for some of the statements that you put regarding pushtoons which resembles your strong convictions, I found not much reasoning for you strong belief in their invincibility.
Would you care to explain.

Posted by sensiblepatriot | Report as abusive

sensiblepatriot,

There is no use asking someone why he or she keeps claiming something superior about their community. This guy to whom you have posed all the questions is most likely a Pashtun of Pakistani origin. They do not grow up learning history through proper channels. Most of it is bravado spread around by relatives and fellow citizens, giving them a mythical sense of infallibility. I have seen people like this in my own community. No matter how much you tell them that all societies have had their moments of upper hand and fall, they keep parroting the same blind beliefs that have filled their heads.

There is a stark difference between Pashtuns and the Taliban.

Pashtuns are generally docile, but strong willed people. It is not easy to corrupt them. They really are not as barbaric as projected. They do not recognize the Durand line and did not want to be a part of Pakistan. They opposed the formation of Pakistan exclusively for Muslims. They have their own traditional value systems and unwritten codes of conduct.

Now the Taliban is different. It is made up of mostly Pashtuns who grew up in Pakistan as refugees and saw only war during their formative years. They never really underwent the traditional up bringing of the normal Pashtuns. And they were radicalized and manipulated by Pakistan’s ISI. These are the ones who swear by medieval Islam and want to control Afghanistan by strict adherence to anachronistic ways of life. The reason is simple. It gives them an ideology to stay united on a single goal. And it gives them a justification for their brutal methods. They are more like the guy you are asking questions to – someone of Pashtun origin, but raised elsewhere. Such people do not know much details, but carry false pride on top of their noses. The Taliban that overran not only had Pashtuns. It had a mix of many other radical Islamic groups from Pakistan, its army regulars and operatives from the ISI. The real Taliban is in Rawalpindi at the ISI headquarters. They are the ones who plan and coordinate all efforts. The rest are puppets and foot soldiers who take orders from the ISI.

Posted by KPSingh01 | Report as abusive

@sensiblepatriot,

He can’t explain his viewpoints. There is no explanation for racially supremacist viewpoints.

He twists history to suit his own purposes. Afghans can’t be defeated and Alexander the Great never conquered them? Yeah right. Is that why they named Kandahar after the guy? And after that they were conquered by the Arabs. That’s the reason they are Muslim today. And after the Arabs, came the Mughals.

Invincible? I think not. That’s not to say that the Pashtuns are push-overs. It’s just that they aren’t supermen like Rex Minor makes them out to be. They have won and lost their fair share of conflicts like every other ethnic group in the world.

WRT to Rex Minor, it is either his zeal to see the West (and the USA in particular) fail in Afghanistan or his outright racially supremacist attitudes that have him failing to see and read history truthfully.

I stand by my assertion that he is either a first or second generation (Pashtun) Pakistani migrant sitting in Germany telling us how the Pashtuns will rule the world (or South Asia) at least. His loud protestations that he’s not Pakistani do not sway me. Just because he holds a German passport does not mean he’s not ethnically Pakistani. And that’s why he never mentions his heritage. He just goes on about how he’s not “Pakistani”. Now that wouldn’t matter much in this forum (why bother about where he’s from or his descent), if it weren’t for his ridiculously racially motivated viewpoints.

The Taliban aren’t doing all that well either. They are certainly no Viet Cong. At least the Viet Cong were somewhat more supported by the locals. The Afghans may not like NATO, but survey after survey shows the only people they don’t like more than NATO are the Taliban. The Taliban have only come as far as they have through their fear tactics. Assasinations, night letters, kidnappings, throwing acid on women who work or girls who attend school, etc. The people fear them. That should not be mistaken for support or endorsement of them by Pashtuns at large. And outside of that, there’s certainly no love for the Taliban in the northern half of Afghanistan. The Taliban will never be able to recover their footing in the northern half of the country again. After 10 years under NATO, these people have discovered freedom. You’re more likely to see a civil war than an acceptance of Taliban rule in the northern half of the country.

All that said, there are parallels to the Viet Cong that are disturbing. The VC survived because their sanctuaries were never succesfully targetted. Back then it was Laos and Cambodia, and backing from China. Today it’s Pakistan. They were able to move because infiltration was difficult control. Then it was the jungles of South-east Asia. Today it’s the Hindu Kush. The VC had solid knowledge of the local terrain and social structures. The Taliban are equally knowledegeable…and by the time our troops get the same knowledge (at the end of their 6-9 month tour), they are rotated out. The VC’s backers were not targetted then (China) and the Taliban’s backers (Pakistan) are not targetted now. That said, despite all their advantages, the Taliban aren’t doing incredibly well and if they get back to power, they will surely be in a worse position. They will again become a client state of Pakistan…only this time it will be a Pakistan that itself is dependent on US aid. They will be internationally isolated and countries will be reticent to assist them after having fought them for so long. And they won’t be able to offer any real safe havens to groups like Al Qaeda any more. Meanwhile, they’ll have a restive population that has lived for a decade without the need to grow a beard or having to attend public executions. They aren’t likely going to be happy to see serious quality of life gains traded for an austere existence again. If the Taliban “win”, this will be a far more pyrrhic victory than the VC ever got.

One question that hasn’t been discussed much is what happens to Pakistan if the Taliban get back to power in Afghanistan. The Afghans will now be dependent on them for aid, which they might not have the resources to provide, which might turn the Taliban hostile. And having protected the Taliban for so long and having helped reinstate them into power, the world will now hold Pakistan responsible for anything and everything that happens in Afghanistan. Seems to me like the Pakistanis are making a huge gamble that they’ll be able to manage a post-war Afghanistan with the Taliban. Yet, they can’t even seem to keep the extremists at bay from within.

Posted by kEiThZ | Report as abusive

Ps sorry for th missing words in spellings, I am sure you would get the message. The reorter who described about the massacre in Kabul was the reporter jounalist Tom Pocock, I had to dig this ot from one of the old news paper. Good luck in your research. The Pashtoons do not have a big mouth. Pakistan army is now realizing as well. Their loyalty is for their family and homes and not for the country per say.

Rex Minor

Posted by pakistan | Report as abusive

@Keithz: “The only people I could think of, worthy of such mental gymnastics, would be the Nazis.”

You probably missed it as it was a while ago but this guy (Rex minor) is on the record, defending the Nazis & justifying their crimes against humanity (especially jews).

Posted by Mortal1 | Report as abusive

Keithz, don’t let the likes of Rex minor, discourage you from posting on this blog. I can assure you that there are a lot more people interested in your views than, in his. Just ignore him like the rest of us do. As far as Reuters moderators are concerned, they have been asleep at the wheel for quite some time now. Either that or they are so desperate for Pakistani participation that they are even willing to allow verbal diarrhea of the lowest moral & literary standards.

Posted by Mortal1 | Report as abusive

Mortal:”The article is indeed quite scathing. It’s hard to believe that it was penned by Hitchens”.
Indeed, it was a sea change!!! I have to double check if he was same guy.Although his article went a bit too far spitting out anger without much rational though. It was still a remarkable change!! ;-)

Posted by sensiblepatriot | Report as abusive

The wall is closing on the ISI. There are more leads that point at the ISI-Bin Laden links:

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/06/24/world/ asia/24pakistan.html?_r=1&hp

Posted by KPSingh01 | Report as abusive

“The wall is closing on the ISI. There are more leads that point at the ISI-Bin Laden links” Posted by KPSingh01

With the troop withdrawal from Afghanistan, formally in progress, I suspect we’ll see many more such stories in the days & months ahead. The worms have started to leave the can.

Posted by Mortal1 | Report as abusive

I have an interesting story to tell about the nature of humans, which at times resembles Monkeys(yeah, you’ve read right). I’ve read this experiment in some internet blog and it goes something like this.

Many times we do not ask – why we do what we do.

Eight monkeys are put in a room. In the middle of the room is a ladder, leading to a bunch of bananas hanging from a hook on the ceiling.
Each time a monkey tries to climb the ladder; all the monkeys are sprayed with ice water, which makes them miserable.

Sooner enough, whenever a monkey attempts to climb the ladder, all of the other monkeys, not wanting to be sprayed, set upon him and beat him up.
Soon, none of the eight monkeys ever attempts to climb the ladder (for fear of ice water being sprayed on them).

One of the original monkeys is then removed, and a new monkey is put in the room. Seeing the bananas and the ladder, he wonders why none of the other monkeys are doing the obvious, but, undaunted, he immediately begins to climb the ladder. All the other monkeys fall upon him and beat him silly (no ice water is sprayed this time).
He has no idea why. However, he no longer attempts to climb the ladder.

A second original monkey is removed and replaced. The newcomer again attempts to climb the ladder, but all the other monkeys hammer the crap out of him. This includes the previous new monkey, who, grateful that he’s not
on the receiving end this time, participates in the beating because all the other monkeys are doing it. However, he has no idea why he’s attacking the
new monkey.

One by one, all the original monkeys are replaced.

Eight new monkeys are now in the room. None of them have ever been sprayed by ice water.

None of them attempt to climb the ladder. All of them will enthusiastically beat up any new monkey who tries, without having any idea why.

Many times we do not ask – why we do what we do!
If this nature is extrapolated to humans we exactly react in ways that seems in no way reasonable or logical for a person viewing this experiment from outside, but due to our own historical reasons we will remain mired in our own ways.

Just like Indian communists and indeed a significant section of Indian public does not realize that world has changed since socialistic days and even in china the only thing that is red is perhaps girls lipsticks, they remain unreconciled to sweeping structural changes due to globalisation and they still hang to antiquated ideas of social idealism!!

Chinese too, oblivious to the sweeping democratic political revolutions being fired their near and abroad remain entangled with their own archaic political system which is a relic and resorts to horrible human rights violations in the garb of national power and patriotism.

West, on its part is guilty of destroying the nature (significant part) and its extreme materialistic culture,individualistic and anti-family attitudes (sub nuclear families) which resulted in high debt and feckless spending have brought upon them, the economic depression. But still remain tight fisted on their ideas of life (Oh God! you are still virgin!?!).

While their indulgencies are less lethal to their societies and hardly effect others, Pakistan’s case is different. If we could turn every nation into a monkey with its own indulgencies, the pakistani one which sets fire to its own house and others is far dangerous to the world. Obviously, the cross-border terrorism and low intensity warfare has been hurting this monkey a lot these days. Will this monkey indulge in something that wont set fight in other’s neighbours.
When others protest about this behaviour (terrorism) and threaten it to teach a lesson, the nation protests that they are violating its sovereignty and counter-threatens them with nuclear brinkmanship!!!

Posted by sensiblepatriot | Report as abusive

KPsingh01,
Nice post. While I was a little disappointed with Rex’s reply harping back on the invincibility of pashtuns, I have neverthless agree most of the other points he put in his post.
May be my criticism of pashtuns(not taliban) treating their women shabbily smacks of our own hypocrisy who doesn’t treat womean any better.
As you rightly pointed out before that, Afghanistan being a geopolitical highway for invading forces have made the local culture more defensive,intrasigent, consservative and inward looking whose sole purpose is survival (an not rule other lands). In this way they protect their women which for us looks more parochial.

when rex Says:”but they were also fiercely patriotic, treacherous, savage and first class soldiers”- he is unwittingly saying that they are no special people but due to extreme and hostile circumstances have to be adapted this way. His complete avoidance of Taliban in his posts and mixing them with pashtuns when it suits the arguments have a really interesting narrative which I will cover in my previous post. Believe me this behaviour is not unique.

Posted by sensiblepatriot | Report as abusive

kEiThZ,
Excellent post and no disagreements here. I just wanted to add one point to your thought that “The Afghans will now be dependent on them for aid, which they might not have the resources to provide, which might turn the Taliban hostile”, Yes, Afghans will indeep depend on pakistan for Aid but this is where Pakistan’s prized assets come up into play.

Pakistan not only provides sanctuaries for world’s most dangerous terrorists (Bin Laden), Its unbrindled hatred for India has led it to provide asylum to world’s most notorious mafia dons. Dawood Ibrahim with his wide network of criminals and drug peddlars is going to create a huge poppy empire in Afghanistan once americans leave and this will provide enough resources to feed taliban forces and indulge in even more belligerence. When the sole purpose of an Army or state is to undermine the other, it stops counting the cost-benefit ratio of such policy and any appeal to review of oppurtunity cost of such war from saner elements amounts to derision and ridicule from the Army.

Posted by sensiblepatriot | Report as abusive

Sorry for the long posts. I would try to shorten it as much as possibile, I had to blog alot as my Internet connection is expection to go down tomorrow.

Posted by sensiblepatriot | Report as abusive

while we Indians (or pakisanis) are happy to see Indian people and Indian Government as seperate. The non-Resident people have problems in supporting a country.

If they say well Indian people are basically good but the government is bad and corrupt. Westerners simply ridicule them and say “Hell with it. All are rogues. If they are so good, whey dont they elect some good government?”, without understanding about the complex realities that come with a nation state. This marks the confusion and leads to weave theories of cultural greatness.

Posted by sensiblepatriot | Report as abusive

“Over the time as the initial rage declines to normal levels and owing to the negative press that South Asia gets (India and Pakistan to be more precise) in their country, they stop supporting India but rather bad mouthing it and eventually make every attempt to potray themselves as Australians.These cousins concurred to me how at times they ridiculed India before Australians.” Posted by sensiblepatriot

I don’t know much about South Asian press coverage in Australia since I’ve barely been there but I can tell you that in the US & Europe (by & large), the press coverage of India is very different than that of Pakistan. Although negatives like poverty & corruption do exist, over the last decade or so, India has come to be defined largely by it’s economic success & rising stature in the world order. Pakistan on the other hand has gone in the opposite direction & unfortunately, is defined by terrorism.

Also, I don’t think the term ABCD (American born confused desi) is applicable to today’s Indian American. From what I see, Indian Americans, are no longer ashamed or confused about their Indian identity but have rather grown to become proud of it. For example, I know quite a few Indian Americans (born in the US) who have had no problems with moving to India to explore employment & business opportunities there, while their first generation immigrant parents, would have their reservations in doing the same.

Posted by Mortal1 | Report as abusive

For a lameduck prime minister who stakes his government for the sake of nuclear deal, it has now ended in this.
http://www.thehindu.com/news/national/a rticle2132457.ece”.

Posted by sensiblepatriot | Report as abusive

> My cousins told me how australians were racist brats who ridicule everything that is Indian be it its Gods, Food or manners.

Bullsh*t.

> But although the original mother country,Britain and Europe in general have left behind the racial overtones, still significant australians display this biracial attitudes.

More bullsh*t.

I’ve lived in Australia for 13 years. I’ve experienced nothing of the kind. I don’t know if your cousins have a massive chip on their shoulder or have been singularly unlucky in the kind of people they associate with.

And the one Canadian guy I worked with in Sydney was not the epitome of cultural sensitivity.

Regards,
Ganesh Prasad

Posted by prasadgc | Report as abusive

kEiThZ:”It always blows my mind that so many South Asians choose Australia”.

Probably has got something to do with that country’s immigration policy. I’ve been told that it’s a lot easier to migrate to Australia than to US, Canada or UK. A friend of mine who migrated to Australia a few years ago told me that most Indians who migrate to Australia, have tried migrating to the US, Canada & UK and failed.
Also, Australia’s commodity driven economy, is doing a lot better than North American & European economies, so I’m sure they have more employment opportunities there.

Posted by Mortal1 | Report as abusive

kEiThZ:”It always blows my mind that so many South Asians choose Australia”.

During the cold war era, Canada was not very receptive to India. So was UK. Getting visa to Canada was almost impossible for Indians. Going to the US as a graduate student was a lot easier even during the cold war days.

The second factor is the immigration class that went to the US and other countries. In the US migration during the 1970s until the early 1990s was mostly through higher education. This brought mostly highly educated individuals from prestigious colleges from India who landed high pay jobs. They could afford to be financially independent and had grown up with liberal values even while in India. These people easily blended into the American mainstream and race etc did not matter at that level. The average annual income of this group of migrants was more than 60k dollars a year. Most lived in comfort and high income neighborhoods. Most were scientists, academics, financial experts and surgeons and doctors.

In contrast, most people who migrated to Canada or the UK in those days were from peasant and low income groups from the sub-continent. In these two countries, the wealthy groups of Indians mostly came from East Africa. They were traditionally business people dealing in jewelry, motels, restaurants, textile etc. This was a much smaller group compared to the majority immigrants into UK and Canada from South Asia. Many of these immigrants moved in and became cab drivers, factory workers etc. They were not highly educated. Many could not speak English fluently. Many were not polished or sophisticated. Many brought their unhygienic habits with them. As a result they were looked at with scorn by the locals. And they could work hard and at a much lower salary level than the locals for menial jobs. They tended to rely on community support. As a result they relied heavily on their religion (Muslims, Sikhs), ethnicity (Gujeratis, Punjabis, Bengalis), linguistic heritage (Tamils) etc. This brings in a ghetto mindset which brands people as those who refuse to integrate and remain isolated with old, traditional values. It is from such communities that many radicals have emerged (Many from Muslim community in UK that turned into terrorists, Tamil tiger supporters, Khalistan militants etc).

With the arrival of info tech, India’s economic liberalization, and the end of cold war, things have changed radically. Stress has shifted towards radical Islam and its origin in Pakistan. India has become less visible in this regard and its presence is being recognized on the economic and industrial front. And India has stayed away from the COAS mission in Af-Pak from a military standpoint. All this has changed the image about India. A new generation of Westerners has grown up and have seen India on a positive light more.

Migration from India has now turned in all directions. This means, people have started moving into New Zealand and Australia as well. Most go in there as skilled individuals and are welcomed there. Countries want software potential that India has aplenty. What is going on in Australia is a cultural adjustment and acceptance of the reality. In about two decades time Indians will be accepted as a part of the mainstream. Culturally Australians seem to be more intimidating like the Greeks and Italians. One can see that in cricket. They got their noses bitten when Indian cricketers began to stand up to them and it shocked them completely. It coincided with their decline from dominance of world cricket and India’s emergence as the richest cricket nation with a clout.

Before we migrate to other planets, we have to become one nation first.

Posted by KPSingh01 | Report as abusive

Ganesh,
Different people, different perceptions and different experiences. Lets agree to disagree.
I have never said every Australian is a racist by nature, I said “still significant australians display this biracial attitudes”, which means still after Asians migrating for few decades and still after significant decline in racist attitudes, there are “still” significant australians who display biracial attitudes.

My cousins lived their entire life in Australia starting for 7 years of age (incidentally my uncle lived with his family in New Zealand for 2 years and they found it dramatically less racist, they moved to australian in 1995) and they might have encountered various age groups during school, middle schools and college level.
My Aunt works as an accountant in a Government department and she said she had encountered it among her collegues in office who constantly questions her cultural taits and lifestyle in a demeaning way (“You pray to monkey god”, while giggling). Quite evidently Private sector has stronger policies relating to cultural and business ethics and employees dont question each other often on their cultural differences.
I wont try to convince you as I am not myself sure and becuase I have heard this from my Aunts and cousines wont make an authoritative source, but suffice it to say lets agree to disagree and not digress from main topic.

But my point was completely different. Social groups migrating to different countries still cling on to socio-political-religious traits even when their mother country has changed for good. And these groups still live in a kind of time warp of the past like we see some khalistan supporting sikh groups and eelam supporting lankan tamils.

Posted by sensiblepatriot | Report as abusive

Ganesh,
My previous posts were not about Australia’s racism but how people react in face of racial slurs. And the issue of facing racist slurs is related to each individual, how he takes it.

kpsingh01:”They were not highly educated. Many could not speak English fluently. Many were not polished or sophisticated. Many brought their unhygienic habits with them. As a result they were looked at with scorn by the locals. And they could work hard and at a much lower salary level than the locals for menial jobs. They tended to rely on community support”.

It is probably true, people with thick native accents were often subjects of ridicule and people who compete for lower jobs clerks,janitors are looked down in every society as they compete with native populations and are more hard working.People who are highly skilled,with sophisticated communication and speaking skills face less discrimination.
And these below middle classes and consuming classes (consuming classes, who are just above poverty line)with limited skills find recourse in community and religion.
This could be perhaps the reason why Indians look down bangladeshis and shiv sainiks in mumbai play up with the insecurity of marathi bhais(women janitors) in perpetuating an anti-bangladeshi movement. Although I am not a supporter of bangladeshi immigration neither the shiv sainik bigots are nationalistic cadre.

Posted by sensiblepatriot | Report as abusive

The fact that lower middle classes and consuming classes are subjected to brain washing (of their community or culture) is a known fact, but west was still aghast how a upper middle class pakistani like shazadat with good education and decent living could attempt to plant a bomb at times square. I could not explain to myself with a convincing answer. Although people with limited education get brain washed easily, the fact that an upper middle class guy (not the poorest to be affected by brain washing and not the riches to be affected by hubris and arrogance) affected to religious fanaticism that he attempts to bomb the same society which offers him life and more peaceful ways to dissent. I still could not reconcile why?

Posted by sensiblepatriot | Report as abusive

Good article Myra,

It would be interesting to know what your opinions are on the timing of the US ‘draw down’ or ‘pull out’, and if you think it has a lot to do with the sinking US economy?

If things are getting worse for the US in Afghanistan as you say (I would say yes) then we could expect the US to inject more troops / resources into the conflict. Unless they can no longer afford to wage this war..

My opinion, the US is going to lose this war.
The Bush administration thought the ‘war on terror’ they invented would be a blank cheque to advance the US economy through sweeping military actions across the worlds energy and strategic areas, but the opposite has happened.

They underestimated the strength and will of their opponents, overestimated the value of their conquest both economically and morally, and were arrogant to the ever growing lack of trust and respect the world has for US.

Like all things American, the loss of this war will not be genuine. Like a disgraced CEO, we will let them leave Afghanistan ‘for personal reasons’ or ‘to pursue other opportunities’.

The US is bankrupt and the war is lost both physically and more importantly ideologically. But we got Bin Laden!

This whole obscure chapter of modern history will soon conveniently blend our collective memory filed somewhere between – Severely compromised victory in negotiated non-allied enemy non-combatant, reclassified terror objective codenamed – Moral Retreat. and, Extraordinary rendition of dehumanised enhanced interrogation of sectarian links to branches of wings on franchises of Al Qaeda offshoots in former un-official allied dictatorships leaked on condition of anonymity.

Posted by brian-decree | Report as abusive

sensiblepatriot,

Racism in Australia is a very convoluded issue. I am australian, white, and know first hand and in full detail this subject in my country.

I think the operative word here is WHITE.

Australia is VERY multicultural, so one might immediately ask, who is racist??? Indian Australians? Asian Australians?

But I think I know who we are talking about here… white Australians. You just don’t want to say it for fear of sounding racist yourself.

This view itself I believe is just as racist as a white Australians view that Indian cab drivers are rude and always try to rip you off. It’s a generalization.

I find it very strange indeed that racism always seems to be directed at white people, like it’s something exclusive to us.

I can’t remember the last time I saw a different colored person accused of racism. Having said that I have travelled all over Asia and found Asians to be profoundly more racist than any white people I’ve ever met. Not only are they extremely racist in general to white people but they are extremely racially aggressive towards other Asians.

Lets get one thing straight, racism isn’t people judgeing others based on their color, most of the time it’s people who judge others on their ACTIONS.

If there is a culture out there that is extremely offensive to my beliefs and to my culture then I have EVERY right to dislike this culture and it’s practitioners.
Not only do we have every right to do this, but we have every right to openly criticize these practices.

How dare anyone try to tell me that, because the person hacking up dolphins with machetes while they’re still alive, or the person plundering the great whales of the ocean for meat and sharks for their fins, or blowing themselves up in a crowded marketplace is a different color, that criticizing them is “racism”.

In my country western culture clashes with Indian culture, when they are rude and try to rip us off.
They dominate two professions outside Indian food in Australia – Taxi driving and 711 24hour stores. These two transactions are our most likely points of contact with an Indian person on a daily basis and they both reliably offer examples of extreme customer exploitation.
We do not like this.
We also do not respect the fact that they come here from elsewhere and selectively exploit our freedoms without embracing them as values in their own lives. Many Indian parents will not allow their children to mix sexually with other races and believe in arranged marriage.

I personally had a relationship with an Indian woman for over 2 years where the girls parents to this day still didn’t know I existed.

Western culture in Australia also clashes with aboriginal culture and Asian culture to a large extent.

Aboriginals in Australia are often extremely aggressive to white Australians, regardless of circumstance or prior meeting. White Australians (especially in cities) are generaly afraid of Aboriginals and stay away from them, as it is not uncommon to be attacked for no reason.

They have some of the worst problems with alcohol and drug abuse of any group in the world and let their children roam the streets sniffing solvents and aerosols, drinking methelated spirits and siphoning petrol out of people’s cars for inhaling.

They have almost no collective motivation to either partake in an advanced and extremely fruitful society as VIPs with extra support, or live traditionally on vast and fruitful reserves of land across the country.

They fight among eachother almost constantly and are extremely prone to violent criminal behavior despite having access to free land, free housing and VIP social security and legal services.

I know friends that have built free houses for Aboriginals only to come back 3 months later to find them destroyed and ripped apart for use as firewood.

They are of the oldest yet most primative races on the planet, to put this into perspective, they have been in Australia for as long as 80,000 years and their culture never moved past stick technology. Their greatest creations in this time: A curved throwing stick (boomerang). And a stick for throwing another stick further (woomera). They also realised in this time that if you take a flat stick, attach it to a piece of string and sing it around it makes a loud vibrating noise as it spins.

They are literally modern day cave men.

Our issues with many Asian people are simple, they come here for economic prosperity, not to partake in Australian society or culture. Many won’t even bother learning english as they live almost their entire lives here in Asian communities that take over whole suburbs.

They keep to themselves, are very rude and speak racially about you often in their language right in front of you, and will often not respond if you try to initiate a conversation.

Another group western culture in Australia has a problem with is Lebenese and some other mediterranian guido like male cultures. This is because they come here and form criminal gangs of street thugs who perpetrate some of the worst and most aggressive street crimes in the country.
Australian jails are full of these steriod pumped thugs and serial drug dealers. We also find their treatment of women extremely offensive. They have been known to gang rape our women and race riots have broken out (famously on sydney beaches) because of this sick and criminal behavior. Their parents are similar to Asian parents, very unwilling to learn english and/or partake in Australian society. They also seem to be here to take advantage of our economy.

None of these things that Australians or westerners dislike are exclusive to white or western culture, in fact I believe we have the most tolerant and culture in the world and that is why western culture and intelligence dominates the world.

Posted by brian-decree | Report as abusive

Dear brian-decree,
My posts were in context of Rex’s rumblings about invincibility of pashutun races who believed in absolute indomitability of these supposedly superior warring race.

I suggest you read my posts more carefully, For benefit of the readers I would reemphasize what I have said.

“Families who reach there suffer certain maladies, those of the first generation are forced to be apologetic about being born in India and they spiritedly support

their nation or culture, morality(virgin morality for girls only!!) and stong family bonds”.
Have u realized that I was being a self-critic here, where I have accepted that First generation indians(or migrants of any origin) suffer certain “maladies”,

effectively meaning that they are overtly sensitive when reacting to simple questions from Western people. They may be asking out of curiosity or to ridicule but the

way we are extremely apologetic (Indian cultural nationalism at british or Australian shores, you seen in movies) saying something that is wrong about us.

The children who study as adolescents in schools often brag about their greatness in their curiosity to impress young girls of their age and it is here they encounter

some primitive racist slurs of “I am taller, fairer or (something more racist, take your pick)”.
I am sure we must have faced this ourselves during our study as teenagers. But that is not my point, I was discussing how people of some cultures manage to integrate

better than other cultures. I was trying to putforth a hypothesis that although there is no perfect integration of migrant societies as such, people who come from more

tolerant, democratic and multicultural societies are able to integrate better. The fact that you have faced only discourtesy(though irritating I presume) with Indians

while you disliked lebanese criminal activities more and East asians(chinese/japanese) food habits even more appaling is a vindication of this fact that a

tolerant,multiculare and democratic indians are more inclined to change their habits(but then you did not have an open dialogue with them have you ? but expect to

change the moment they touch australian shores) than people coming from unicultural or authoritarian societies .

“If they are young enough, they see parents as archaic,boring, methodical and neelessly apologetic about a country with whom they have no roots”, If u managed to read

this, I said children find annoying that parents blindly supporting India with whom they(children) have no roots left and wont understand why they have to leave when

they(parents) love their country so much.

When children complete their education and start to look for jobs, parents out of concern would have transformed their attitudes a little (out of concern for children

or some other reason), long term friends of these kids wont take it so naturally and see this as an un-natural transformation. Well this is what was told by my cousins

and as people have pointed out this is very subjective in nature and depends on individual to individual. I have myself clarified that my sources are not authoritative

in any way and were too subjective. I took liberty by extrapolating a common cultural trait of migrating societies to putforth a different hypothesis which is what we

really need to focus.

Of course “what matters to them was only to agree that India is basically a poverty pit, a scum society and backward looking caste cauldron”, the accusation here is

very true and just like Australians take exception when we identify them as RACIST, we can exception when they identify us with poverty and backwardness.
Please correct me if I am wrong, Haven’t Australian newspapers gloated in a negative way when we launched our mission to moon with underlying ridicule that when half

of India is in hunger a delusional government seeks superpower status.
Or the way in which Australian news papers never print Indian world cup victory in their front pages although cricket is one of the most important sport

(Australians being champions themselves) and how the news was pushed inside while Australian cricketers travel to their home country given more precedence. I am now

sure that India gets good press owing to the fact that we have become your second biggest importers of your mineral wealth.
Just as you felt it was discourteous of not knowing english we feel the same when you ask about our religion,gods,foodsculture. when pakistan or some other country is doing badly we cast entire blame on the nation’s people without understanding the intricacies of the problems and migrants in a sense to uphold their mother country will brag about cultural greatness to foreigners while thoroughly criticizing everybody from that mother country when they come to the mother country to visit relatives.
when I said “still significant australians display this biracial attitudes”, I was confirming that RACIST attitudes have declined throughout history in Australia, I wouldn’t be a fool to believe you never suffered with it but its equally true you have come out.
For me Australia still seems pre-liberal society harping on nationalism that generally emerging and developing nations harp on. Post-liberal societies and people in developed world do not dwelve too much into this “nationalism” stuff like Europe or indeed Canada.In this way Australia is an oddity.

Ganesh, I am looking forward to your opinion on brian-decree’s post and I am sure it will be more intellectual and of course brian’s opinions cannot be generalized. While I may take little time to answer his post,have a good time for now.

Posted by sensiblepatriot | Report as abusive

@Brian-decree
I have also lived in Australia for some years and found it one of the best and remember the warm Sydney throughout the year requiring no heating during winter. The possibility for out door activities including Golf and swimming, as well as digging in the garden for some opals is not comparable to any other part of the world that I have seen and lived in. People used to migrate to Australia and still do from Germany, not only to seek employment but prefer it over the USA or Canada since the latter countries do not have a homogenious societies with advanced western culture. A multi cultural society is not a preferance for many Europeans seeking a future for their children.

I shall go along with the concerns in Australia which you have described, though the causual factors are not clear in your comments. There are some which are related to social issues and others to resistance of certain immigrant sector against integration. I am of the opinion that the host countries must implement specific actions within their country to encourage and motivate integration.
The question of discrimination of one group of people against the other group of people, such as Asians or Africans against the caucasians and vice a versa is a regular evil in our societies and is based on our perceptions rather than the realities. Even in this age of awareness we are being deliberately targeted, subjecting us to the mass hysteria coming from the biased media, neo-conservatives, lobbyists and incompetent politicians as well as responsible Govts and its institutions.

According to Jimmy carter, the former USA President no congressman can now be elected in he USA if he or she criticise Israel foreign policy. A private citizen criticising the cosiparacies of the Zionist jews is immediately termed as an anti semit. No white man can dare complain against an African or an afro american without being accused of racism. A decent english woman addressed her Prime Minister Gordon Brown and complained about the uncontrolled immigration from Poland, making Brits loosin the jobs, and was scoffed at calling her a Bigot. This coming from aPrime Minister who is to look after the citizens of the Country. This is sickening to suppress people not speaking their minds against a certain section of the society who always prefer to live with a privileage and under a special protection clause and making him immune against any wrongs that he or she undertakes. This in my view is totaly unfair.
With regard to your last paragraph, I hasten to add that the domination of the western culture and inelligence( whatever it means) in the world can be simly explained explained by the fact that most non wester countries were colonised by the colonial power for over a two hundred or more years. I am sure that over a reasonable time the non western countries would overcome the shortfalls and their performance in the future could lead the human civilisation to a much superior level.

Rex Minor

Posted by pakistan | Report as abusive

OH and sorry folks for the formatting of the post.

Posted by sensiblepatriot | Report as abusive

sebsiblepatriot,

No we don’t ‘take offense’ when you ‘identify’ us as racist.
We just consider comments like this to BE very racist.

And despite you downplaying extreme offense as “discourtesy” by Indians. I should explain, when we let you come here from that @#%t hole of a country called India you are all so desperate to escape, and you steal from and rip off your new hosts who are already doing you such large favours, in my culture that is considered EXTREMELY rude, and not at all minor ‘discourtesy’… Maybe in India it is common practice to bite the hand that feeds you but here it is akin to spitting on Ganesh himself.

Do you understand this?

On the one hand we have identified a particular behavior belonging to a group that we deplore, this is not racism.

For you to challenge this as racism is ridiculous and makes you look racist now because you are insulting us as a people without a good reason.
If you can defend your behavior do that instead, but don’t play the racism card in defense, it’s extremely offensive to my race and to my culture.

You seem to think there is some kind of entitlement owed to emmigrants entering our country… this is bizarre and could only come from the mind of someone who has destroyed their own land.

The difference in mentality is that it’s our CULTURE that made our country successful and preserved it’s beauty.
Now for you to enter our paradise is a bloody privaledge as we have ZERO obligation to let you do so.

Do you understand this?

You are NOT entitled.

Especially when you have massively overpopulated and largely failed in your own country and seek escape.

So when you and your countrymen come here you WILL respect our customs our land and our culture or you will be harshely criticized, and in my opinion should be deported.

Because there is a long long line of people behind you begging for the right to enjoy the paradisic society that our culture has created and preserved!

Your opinion that my opinions can’t be generalized is very silly as it really just points out that you want people to think that I’m a minority in my own country.
Let me tell you something, I am a first hand witness, I am a white Australian teling YOU how it is. You are the one who is uneducated on the matter and merely defending sectarian principals on a topic you know little about. Your opinion on the matter is almost worthless because you are unable to pay respect to a first hand, first class opinion such as mine now that you’ve been lucky enough to have it presented to you.

Also your comments on our media and the world cup are ramblings of a madman…

Posted by brian-decree | Report as abusive

@brian-decree: Can you elaborate on, how exactly do Indian cab drivers & C-store owners in Australia “rip-off” white australians? Don’t your cabs have meters & the items in a C-store have price tags?

Posted by Mortal1 | Report as abusive

@brian decree: I appreciated your post outlining the racial/cultural conflicts in australia but your last post (more of an outburst), was uncalled for!

Posted by Mortal1 | Report as abusive

brian-decree,
Ok, read your last post. You would do well to answer Mortal’s questions and shed some light on it.

Posted by sensiblepatriot | Report as abusive

brian-decree,
Ok, read your last post. You would do well to answer Mortal’s questions and shed some light on it.

Posted by sensiblepatriot | Report as abusive

> Ganesh, I am looking forward to your opinion on brian-decree’s post

I agree with his first post in entirety. You need to live here a few years to understand his frustrations. Imagine being an Anglo-Australian, going to the now Asian-dominated suburb of Eastwood in Sydney and seeing this in a shop window: “English spoken here”. How would you feel? What does this say about the ethnic ghettos that have sprung up? Riots have broken out in Indian cities over alien influxes that have been far less visible than this. All his references are either factual as reported in newspapers, or at least authentic personal experiences.

As I said earlier, you can’t make pronouncements on Australian society based on hearsay. You have to live here for a few years to understand the reasons for what brian-decree is saying. An immigration situation like what Australia has would have led to genocide in another country. Australia has been remarkably patient and assimilating. Immigrants have to do their bit to integrate.

His second post was however, way over the top and I won’t comment on it. He’ll probably apologise and backpedal when he’s sober :-). It was the weekend, after all…

Regards,
Ganesh Prasad

Posted by prasadgc | Report as abusive

Mortal1,

Your question is a very simple one, and very easy to answer.

They rip us off in cabs in a few different ways,

1) They constantly try to take longer routes
2) They always slow down before a set of traffic lights hoping it will turn red.
3) They pretend to get lost even on main roads.
4) Most importantly, the cabs are metered but all they have to do is press a few buttons at the start and or the end of the fare and they can add as many surcharges on as they like for no reason.
There was a curent affairs expose on this last week, where undercover cameras were used and exposed a systemic problem.
Indians were actually taught and encouraged by other Indian cab drivers to practice this.

In the 24hr stores their prices are ridiculous because they know there is no other option at that time for convenience goods. Their stores are FAR more expensive than an Australian equivelant sometimes by a factor of 4-5.
They also have ben found guilty of unheigenic food practices eg. not throwing away food past it’s used by date, or fresh or cooked food that is too old to sell.

I have travelled all over Asia and it is the Indians who are the most aggressive, most sleazy salesmen (usually suit salesmen). I know this first hand.

It is very obvious to an educated person when someone is trying to rip you off. You may just think we are too stupid to notice because we are usually too polite to argue.

Your questions are mildly insulting to our intelligence but what is more insulting is your claim that my opinions are not called for and are an outburst.
I will not be insulted by racial slurs in defence of people we grant the enormous favour of allowing to share our amazing country who then go on to disrespect it.

It’s obvious which side of the fence you sit on, but now you have a FIRST hand opinion of the situation. This is how it is, and this is the opinion of western cultured Australians whether you like it or not.

Remember the more you insult Australians the harder you make it for the Indians here and the harder you make it for Indians wanting to escape the billion plus squaller to a better life.

Posted by brian-decree | Report as abusive

GP,
Thanks for the explanation. You are a sober individual and you seem to be kind to your compatriot brian-decree. But he comes across as a rude and uncouth racist. His posts speak for themselves.

It looks like SP or Keithz’s comments on Australia started this fist fight. The racist rants of b-d go way beyond explaining white grievance in Australia. Obviously this anti-Indian racist rant is music to the resident jihadi pest.

Posted by netizen | Report as abusive

brian-decree,

From starting of being reasonably coherent and with many sensible opinions you later degenerated to visiousness. Not racism, but just a plain dogged viscious bias against people from other regions.

Let me add, I know of no people or group that is not racist. It is all pervasive – around the world. So please being white doe not make you lily white and pure as you seem to think by enumerating why you dont like people of other cultures. All the reasons you seem to have enumerated in your earlier posts about people having being ‘allowed’ to enter your country is also equally true of what I see of other cultures that are in India. They remain to themselves, dismissive of ‘natives’, do not mingle and stick to them themselves giggling amongst themselves, refuse to speak or learn any of our languages and generally think they still are carrying the white man’s burden.

Which is not to say that you are more rascist than we are but to point out that what you say about others also reflects truly about yourselves and the likes of your countrymen elsewhere. Why is it that even amongst your white and western cultured people ozzies are considered boorish, uncouth and ill mannered? If you want an answer, re-read some of what you have written and the answer will hit you in the face. Lets face it Indians are more known for their tolerance of other cultures, religions and people than any other. How many Australians have been murdered or attacked in India? How many in Australia in the last few years? Or is that news to you?

I notice you have not said a word about white rascist attitudes, surely it exists? Or doesn’t it in your limited experience? it is all we and you stuff. Sorry, doesn’t cut any ice here.

I think this is a nonsensical subject anyway.

Posted by DaraIndia | Report as abusive

I wonder what Mr. Decree feels about the native aborigines of Australia. If he expects people to come to Australia and blend in seamlessly, it is a question of how much blending his people have done with the natives. It is easy to point at others. It is very hard to look at oneself. There is no society in this world that is free of blemishes. There is no one who can cast the stone on others. Mr. Decree has no idea how much colonization of the planet by his people has destroyed native civilizations, wiped out cultures to extinction, decimated populations and divided people into perpetual conflict through artificial and arbitrary creation of borders. All this has been done so that his people can live a comfortable, luxurious lives with rights and high standards of living. When others start moving in seeking their livelihoods just like his ancestors did, they become crooks, criminals, cheats and what not. Does he know his forefathers betrayed, cheated, lied and double crossed people to conquer the world? It was not just by the might of the gun. Does he know that all the naval advancements, explorations and discoveries happened because of the pursuit to find a shorter sea-route to India, the land of the gold? India was once very wealthy. It was sought after by many Europeans. One of them landed in the Caribbean and thought he had reached India. The natives of North America are called Indians for some strange reason! It is human nature to seek a better life and no one had the right to deny that to others by drawing borders and denying others an equal opportunity. People bring with them what they have grown up with. It may not be appealing to the thick skinned Australians like Mr. Decree, but he has to understand that his people brought disease and species to the other lands that wiped out native populations and species. It is important for the pot not to call the kettle black. It is a new world today. If people can compete within legal means, qualify themselves and prove their worth, they deserve all the opportunities to seek their well being. If you cannot compete fairly, go seek your fortune elsewhere where you can compete. You can no longer sit in a land with plentiful resources and live off the wealth captured by your first boat load of ancestors. This world is new and everyone who wants to work hard has the fundamental right to go anywhere and seek his fortune. He has no obligation to change his attire to suit the needs of ignorant locals who have grown fat doing not much. The world is becoming heavily populated. Countries are bulging with population. Resources are getting thin. Nature will find its way and it may not sound well for people like Mr. Decree. You never know. Your descendants might be seeking a livelihood in India, Afghanistan, Timbaktoo whatever and they are going to face the same tirade the Indians are facing in your wonderful country and beyond.

Posted by KPSingh01 | Report as abusive

The tone of the discourse has certainly taken a turn for the worse. Let me just add two points, and stop there.

1. An academic observation: There is a difference between parochialism and racism. Parochialism is positive discrimination towards one’s own kind. Racism is negative discrimination towards people of a particular racial, ethnic or national group. While both are bad, racism is worse. Parochialism is understandable at some level, but we must try and overcome it as well. What ethnic minorities often display in Western countries is largely parochialism, but there could be some racism mixed in there as well. When such behaviour is displayed by the majority group, it’s usually pure racism. Parochialism isn’t generally observed among the majority.

2. The Australian context: To a non-Indian, all Indians must appear the same. Only Indians would be able to tell the difference in class (I don’t mean caste; I mean class).

There are educated and cultured Indians who adapt well to a society based on rules and courtesy. They follow rules and adopt gracious behaviour (e.g., smiling and saying hello to strangers they pass on the street, letting the other car go first, etc.) This is not something they were used to doing “back home”, but they are delighted to see a nicer society and try to become like the others in this society.

But many immigrants do not assimilate in this way. I have noticed that many Asians tend not to smile or say hello. Many of them turn away if someone smiles at them. It may be shyness or just something they’re not used to in their culture, but it strikes a naturalised Australian as rude behaviour.

Then there are others who perhaps because of a scarcity mentality try to “beat the system” at every opportunity. These are the people who will take more than one brochure from a government service outlet because they are free. They look for loopholes and try to take advantage of them. To such people, cleverness consists of outsmarting the system and other people. Well, it’s just petty.

Countries like Australia used to have systems based on trust. Ten years ago, I could join a new company and no one would ask me for proof of qualifications or even proof of residency/citizenship. Now with all the immigration scams, they have started doing so. It’s very sad. Our people misuse a system and then it gets tightened to everyone’s detriment.

Ethnic tradesmen are the only ones I have come across who will offer to do a job for cash, without an invoice. White Australians never do this. This is of course well-known to us Indians as “black money”. Cash is undeclared income and they don’t pay tax on it. In return, they will waive the 10% GST (Goods and Services Tax) that they would otherwise have to charge you. So you and the tradesman “win”, and the country and society lose. I didn’t leave India to introduce such corruption into an unspoilt country, so I never succumb to this nonsense. I’ll pay 10% extra for a nicer country, thank you.

I have to agree with brian-decree in many of his observations. It’s not just Indians, but we’re no better or worse than other immigrant groups. At the risk of being called an Uncle Tom, I must agree that ethnics have spoilt Australia.

Regards,
Ganesh Prasad

Posted by prasadgc | Report as abusive

@brian decree

With my question, I did not mean to insult white austalians, score a point or take a side. I was simply trying to figure out the nature of the white-indian conflict in Australia. But for some reason, you seem offended by it. While you earlier comments were informative, your tone in the later ones’ is very condescending & demeaning towards Indians. From your comments, I take that you paint all the people of a particular race with one brush & you hardly have anything positive to say about other races. Even among Indians living in Australia, I’m sure all of them are not conniving cabbies & store owners. I’m sure, there are many educated & successful Indian Australians, who contribute to your country MORE than many white Australians but you seem oblivious to this fact. I won’t call you a racist, since I don’t know you but from your comments, I can now begin to understand the reasons for hate crimes against Indians in your country.

Posted by Mortal1 | Report as abusive

“I must agree that ethnics have spoilt Australia.”
Posted by prasadgc

Then you can also say that they (ethnics) have destroyed US, Canada, UK etc etc. I’m sorry to say this but in a way, you are defending racism.

Posted by Mortal1 | Report as abusive

well, As I was the origin of the much spelt out anger here, I apologise if I did hurt anybody. My opinions were not to hurt anybody intentionally.

Neverthless, Immediately after my first post I issued clarification and reclarifications that the issue of racism is very subjective in nature depends from Individual to Individual. When somebody simply play down racist slurs, he should remember how could he feel, if he were the one who faced unrelenting racial slurs. That person would never in life endorses the person who insulted him . Ask muslims of Gujarat whether they could reconcile to Modi even if he is the best administrator India has got.

When Australia dismantles the white Australia policy only in mid 1970′s, It was still one of the last countries to do so, I never thought it is rabidly racist.
Read my post I never accused “Australia a racist country”
rather I said “when they face racist slurs”, effectively saying that there are few bad apples and how Indians are bound to take it.

Rather my point was how well migrants could integrate and was believing that people from tolerant, multicultural and democratic state make a better migrant society.

Secondly, although there is no such thing as perfect migration and a migrants can be deemed more succesful when they start percolating in higher echelons of society especially politics, that is why I said canada is successful in this respect for Indians. It means Indians were successful and not that Australia is a failure. This begs a question that although Canadian Indians were from poorer social backgrounds to reach upper echelons, people moving to Australia are middle class Indians.

Finally I realized in this same forum that no matter how tolerant a migrat society is there will always be some cultural differences and states that seek migrants should also be tolerant of other cultures (how we see a white hero in hollywood befriends a black guy and they both resolve a crim, even if this not what happens it is surely sought after). Here we don’t wish a stranger(more so if its a girl) and those are somethings that these societies must understand. It takes two to clap, I guess you got it. Only constant dialogue will help reduce animosities,perceptions and control misbehaviour.

I have no grudge for brian-decree for spitting on me, but he handsomely posted what an average Australian (in his own admission) thinks about Indians and I dont hate him for that. My only fear is, if this is the inner beliefs of even a small but significant australians then there is a problem and a bigger necessity for dialogue.

Although I resisted from spitting back on him and hoped to come back quickly on the topic, I thank KP,Mortal and Dara alot in answering in the most saner voices one could hope for in the prevailing mood.

Ganesh,I take exception to some of your comments here. I could not reconcil how a learned person like you could say “ethnics have spoilt Australia”, well australians were of some ethnic group too. Or do you believe they are superior groups (Eugenics), White Australians are themselves migrants and they have no special rights to set bar on cultural moorings of anybody. Australians encouraged migration bcoz they thought its a win-win combination and dont we have more serious attibutes (hardwork, savings, strong family bonds, enterprise and above all tolerance) that make a society stronger in every sphere, rather than not knowing english properly,western perceptions of discourtesy and crimes he associates to us which everybody from every ethnicity normally does.

While some ethnics refuse to see the changed world and expect government entitlements amidst worst crises (Europe and American crisis in2008)that they brought about themselves out of greed (and not to mention an organized one) , well some ethnics agree to do work in cash (which again is very very individual like).
I agree with you that we should stop it here.

Posted by sensiblepatriot | Report as abusive

Oh and the fact that we are having a dialogue with brian even when its vicious at the start, will at one time settle down and we would come to some form of consensus.
The fact that the continued dialogue with umaripk and rex is a vindication of this process and I am sure that even if brian had some complaints,concerns with us, he could atleast talk while he doesn’t possess the same luxury with some ethnic groups.

Posted by sensiblepatriot | Report as abusive

Decree: “I have travelled all over Asia and it is the Indians who are the most aggressive, most sleazy salesmen (usually suit salesmen). I know this first hand.”

No one denies that. However, I would like to point out that you white guys are sophisticated crooks who can swindle the world by a thousand fold. Isn’t that how the aborigines lost their entire ancestral land to your people? Ricky Ponting and co make millions of dollars playing cricket. Yet they use the cheapest and unsportive methods to win a game. The Sydney cricket test between India and the Australians clearly showed how your esteemed sportsmen can cheat in front of the crowd and the camera and “win” test matches. I am glad Indians stood up and in the very next test match, your mighty team had all its filthy mouths and hands tied up from making sneaky efforts in one of the fastest wickets in the world. Guess what happened? Indians won by playing an honest game. If our cab drivers cheat, I do not deny they are crooks. But so are your people. Half the matches are won by intimidating opponents and umpires. Therefore do not throw stones at others while living in a glass house. The guys who swindled the Wall Street in 2008 did not come from India. And they brought the world economy down overnight. And the crook Bernie Madoff swindled 50 billion of others’ money. He did not learn that from the filthy cab drivers of India. He hails from the ethical and honest white man’s world.

You guys still demarcate between your terrorists and those of others, don’t you? If Pakistanis attack your precious people in Mumbai, Bali and New York, they become threat to the whole world. If they attack Indians, who cares? Some of them get protected by your governments in the name of human rights. Extradition is denied for criminals wanted by India, while people get taken to Guantanamo and impaled. And none of your countries will object to that. Talk about double standards.

Posted by KPSingh01 | Report as abusive

See this is the essential difference between us “sensible”patriot. This is your style of insult, of viciousness:

“I have no grudge for brian-decree for spitting on me, but he handsomely posted what an average Australian (in his own admission) thinks about Indians and I dont hate him for that..”

In Australian culture we are more direct.

For example: “How dare you speak that way about me / us, that is extremely offensive and racist!”

Australians are known and enjoyed for being direct and refusing to use underhanded, dishonest and sleazy approaches.

If you think you can engage in racist behavior and comments against my people after all the favours and tollerance we’ve had for your people in our country you are going to start a fight.

You don’t seem to understand this.

You also don’t seem to understand that while you may frame these extreme insults in what you might consider an intellectual or well spoken manner, this does nothing to diminish the ferocity or provocation of your insults to an educated person.

I’ve said my bit, as the only person here that understands the situation first hand. And of course there are racists in every nation of any color. I’m not going to get drawn into an argument so childish.

I also realise I am talking to a group of Indians who have nothing better to do every day than squabble back and forth from either side of your racial or religious fence, thinking they are solving the worlds problems.

You are all like furniture in here, how many years have you been arguing with eachother over useless semantics and sectarian gripes??

So there you have it, the raw truth.

You may have rather drawn it out and beat around the bush for the next few weeks but that is not a priority of mine, I’m not here to stroke my ego.

So next time you think you can slip in a sleazy little insult or racial comment you would do well to remember that Australians are very proud of our country and our culture and will defend it from slander and racism and those with a victim mentality or inferiority complex.

And we will not be dragged down to your level.

If you are going to insult someone, at least have the conviction to look them in the eyes as you do it.

Posted by brian-decree | Report as abusive

KpSingh01,

Lets take your last two posts as example of the extreme racism, generalization and insult I’m talking about.

You have a disgusting attitude to life and humanity.

Maybe that’s why your country was so easily conquered by a much smaller, more superior force.

Overpopulation is an Asian problem, not a western problem.

Maybe we shouldn’t allow you to escape your lands to our shores if that is your attitude…

Maybe we should just leave you to rot in the absolute mess you created in your own land?

You are extremely racist.

Posted by brian-decree | Report as abusive

This must be the most immature, irrelevant and totally uncalled for debate that it has been my misfortune to witness here. I know standards are rapidly declining but this is the pits.

There is a level beyond which I cannot stoop. Brian-decree you have the floor! Such anger can only be a result of envy or fear.

Posted by DaraIndia | Report as abusive

kpsingh01, you have already been reported.

The rest of you have been warned, stop the racism and get back on topic.

Posted by brian-decree | Report as abusive

IF brian _decree is so upset of having to deal with Indian cabbies and shop floor workers he does not seem to be well prepared for the future where there are good possibilities that he has to report to an Indian manager.

Also I am puzzled by his repeated use of “we” – are there multiple people typing each post to the name of “brian decree”? or have some group of (aussies?) appointed him as their voice and have authorized him to post on their behalf and or does he have a multiple personality disorder ?

Posted by Kiran_123 | Report as abusive

If you can’t take the heat don’t go into the kitchen.

Posted by DaraIndia | Report as abusive

I have reported every one of your comments to reuters.

Please stop your psychopathic racism against my culture and my people immediately!

Reuters I am being attacked racially by a group of psychopathic Indian bloggers. Can you please intervene.

Myra: Close the thread and report this racism to Reuters accounts.

This is very serious, and I consider this extreme racism towards Australians.

Please take action immediately.

I will not let this rest now.

This is absolutely disgusting behavior.

Posted by brian-decree | Report as abusive

Brian-decree:

Mate, take a chill pill. Hysterics aren’t very Aussie.

KP, your question is rhetorical and I don’t know how to answer it. Let me just say that the “attacks on Indian students” were overhyped by the Indian media and made out to be racist attacks. Some of them may have been so. Others were criminal attacks on perceived soft targets for monetary gain. Yet others were attacks by other ethnic minorities. The subtleties of these incidents were not properly investigated or reported. If Australia is as racist as it’s being made out to be by the Indian media, why would people like me still live here?

Regards,
Ganesh Prasad

Posted by prasadgc | Report as abusive

Correction in my above post:

But yes trouble is that all of you [seem to be] generalising the bad actions of any one, to the whole community/country. This generalisation [could be] a glaring error in all of the posters’ judgements here.
(in case I missed reading someone’s post)

Posted by 007XXX | Report as abusive

Seth09,

I have also reported your extreme and psychopathic racism.

You give off the appearance of a sociopathic anti-social group of terrorists with your cynical and disgusting views of successful western culture.

I would personally describe you as a fanatical sociopath by the way you find a seemingly sexual pleasure at crafting the cheapest and lowest form of extended racial and personal insults while trying to leave a childish impression of sophistication in your wake.

You and your little band of psychopahic anti-western terrorists must be stopped.

MYRA: I will continue to call for the deletion of this thread and the investigation of this band of extremely racist Indian bloggers.

This language infringes on my dignity, incites extreme racial hatred and violence and violates Reuters code of conduct.

STOP YOUR FANATICAL RACISM IMMEDIATELY!!!!!!!!!

Posted by brian-decree | Report as abusive

For the record, this is the kind of disgusting behavior that results in the racial violence we have seen recently in Australia towards Indians

You are all acting in a very irresponsible and provocative manner, this will make the situation for your compatriots here much more difficult.

If you can’t handle the truth about my country and the way we see foreigners behave every day, don’t initiate racist blogs on the subject from your cheap 3rd person perspectives.

Posted by brian-decree | Report as abusive

I thought there is only one lunatic here constantly priding about the invincibility of Pashtuns who happen to be in hiding. Now comes another clone from the Southern part of the globe. One is in Germany and the other in Australia. Their supremacist dead weights balance each other. How funny it feels when they are accusing the others of prejudice! Can’t believe there are so many lunatics in this world! I’d say from experience that Canada is the best place in this world, though it gets quite cold there. But nothing can beat the colorfulness of my sweet home India! Enough of this topic. Time to add the wool head to the list. Let us stop responding to him the same way we deal with the Pashtun bottom worshipper.

Posted by KPSingh01 | Report as abusive

Brian wrote:
“I have also reported your extreme and psychopathic racism.”

Thank you! I reported my post myself too! :)

I can’t sympathize with you just because your Indian ex-girlfriend’s parents did not let her “mix sexually” with Australian people as per the norm in your country. I’d just say, you should not have wasted two years of your life just hoping to taste Indian “cuisine”.

“For the record, this is the kind of disgusting behavior that results in the racial violence we have seen recently in Australia towards Indians”

So now you are justifying the use of violence (including murder) in order to settle differences of opinions? But as long as its not racism, it does not matter, right?

Don’t worry! I won’t report your post for I want rest of the world to see the inner thought process of such a noble ambassador of that lovely holier-than-thou Australian culture.

As for rest of your extremely hateful supremacist rant….meh!! I’ll do what KP suggested,

@KP,
Canada is a great country and so are the lovely people here!

Posted by Seth09 | Report as abusive

You are reported, you are reported, and you too and you too and hey you, Im reporting you too – so there. Now lets see who else there is…..you there in the corner – don’t think you can get away with your racist hiding, you are reported!!!! We could make a 3 hour movie out of this reporting racists like McCarthy reported commies.

By the way fella, so which is it, fear or envy?

Posted by DaraIndia | Report as abusive

[...] Taliban talks: the new mirage in Afghanistan | Pakistan: Now or Never?. [...]

“For the record, this is the kind of disgusting behavior that results in the racial violence we have seen recently in Australia towards Indians

You are all acting in a very irresponsible and provocative manner, this will make the situation for your compatriots here much more difficult.

If you can’t handle the truth about my country and the way we see foreigners behave every day, don’t initiate racist blogs on the subject from your cheap 3rd person perspectives.”

Posted by brian-decree

So you support the attacks on Indian students ?

Why don’t you be part of that attacks also or May be you already are. Cabbie charge you more you kill him , how convenient. Immigrants don;t behave properly you use violence, If that is your standard, imagine natives living by this standard, every dead “Sir” and “Lord” of yours will be dug up from the graves and hanged again.

Posted by punjabiyaar | Report as abusive

My apologies at starting something that I never intended. It was an off-hand comment.

That said I can’t let certain statements and perceptions pass.

kp in your post, you show a tremendous amount of ignorance (though you try and state it as though it is fact) about immigration to the West and Canada in particular. I must refute some of these most egregious statements.

“During the cold war era, Canada was not very receptive to India. So was UK. Getting visa to Canada was almost impossible for Indians. Going to the US as a graduate student was a lot easier even during the cold war days.”

Yes. We get it. You go on and on ad naseaum about how India was mistreated during the Cold War. But not everything that happened during the Cold War period had to do with Cold War politics. Diplomatic relations between Canada and India cooled off after Canadian trust was violated when India specifically misused Canadian nuclear technology to build atomic weapons. If the situation were reversed, you don’t think India would cut off relations with a country that violated such a commitment?

However, that did not have any impact on immigration policies in Canada. Immigration policies until the Trudeau government tended to favour Europeans, largely because of ties to Europe. But that did not mean there was no immigration from other parts of the world. Just that more effort was made at courting European immigrants. The Trudeau government in the late 70s (well before the end of the Cold War) changed Canadian immigration policies to open up immigration and create a balanced, meritocratic application process that was religion and ethnically blind. This change opened up immigration to Asians, Africans, Carribean residents, South Americans, etc.

The idea that the Cold War had anything to do with it is ludicrous.

“In contrast, most people who migrated to Canada or the UK in those days were from peasant and low income groups from the sub-continent. In these two countries, the wealthy groups of Indians mostly came from East Africa. They were traditionally business people dealing in jewelry, motels, restaurants, textile etc. This was a much smaller group compared to the majority immigrants into UK and Canada from South Asia. Many of these immigrants moved in and became cab drivers, factory workers etc. They were not highly educated. Many could not speak English fluently. Many were not polished or sophisticated. Many brought their unhygienic habits with them. As a result they were looked at with scorn by the locals. And they could work hard and at a much lower salary level than the locals for menial jobs. They tended to rely on community support. As a result they relied heavily on their religion (Muslims, Sikhs), ethnicity (Gujeratis, Punjabis, Bengalis), linguistic heritage (Tamils) etc. This brings in a ghetto mindset which brands people as those who refuse to integrate and remain isolated with old, traditional values. It is from such communities that many radicals have emerged (Many from Muslim community in UK that turned into terrorists, Tamil tiger supporters, Khalistan militants etc).”

Keep up this level of ignorance and I’ll start lumping you in with Rex Minor on this forum. This last paragraph is on par with something he would put out.

To start out with Canadian immigrants (and particularly South Asian immigrants to Canada) tend to have higher levels of education than the native-born population. And the South Asians who are here (and I am one of them) certainly aren’t “mostly from East Africa”. What ignorant drivel. The majority of Canada’s South Asian population (even in the 70s and 80s) came straight from the sub-continent. They are not mostly “un-educated” and they are not looked at “with scorn” by locals. If that was the case, we’d be having race issues on par with what Australia’s got. We don’t. To the extent that we have immigrants driving cabs and such, it’s largely because of a failure to integrate their educational and professional qualifications compels them to do manual labour jobs. It’s actually a situation that even most native-born Canadians are infuriated about. Most Canadians feel genuinely sad to know that their cabbie or convenience store clerk is an engineer or doctor in a country that needs such workers. It’s a standing joke that Toronto must have the most educated cabbies in the world. It’s something we’re not proud of and something the government is working hard to overcome.

You’re right that we’ve seen radicalism on our shores. Most interestingly, not a single person involved or prosecuted for terrorism in Canada has been native-born. Every single member involved with the LTTE in Toronto, or with the Khalistan movement in Vancouver were immigrants directly from the India or Sri Lanka. Unlike what’s happened in the UK, immigrant children by and large adjust particularly well in Canada, and become beer-drinking hockey players in a single generation.

Yet, despite having terrorism arrive on our shores from India and Sri Lanka, our refugee policies have never been restricted, nor has intake from these parts been lessened. Most Canadians understand these stories for what they are: oddities.

Next, you go on to insult Muslims, Sikhs, Gujaratis, Punjabis, Bengalis and so forth suggesting that they live in ghettos. There may be a large suburb or two that maybe dominated by a certain ethnicity (Brampton and Surrey with Punjabis, Scarborough with Tamils), but classifying what are largely middle-class neighbourhoods as ethnic ghettos is patently ridiculous.

Posted by kEiThZ | Report as abusive

While on the immigration topic, I had an interesting discussion about immigration with a British counter-part once. We talked about the fact that both our countries had seen significant immigration from South Asia (his more than mine), however, only his had seen such significant amounts of terrorism and extremism.

He posited that it had to do with the make-up of our immigrant communities. By and large (with the exceptions of Punjabi and Tamil refugees), the vast majority of South Asian migrants to Canada come from India and arrive as economic (professional) class migrants. This means they tend to be better educated and wealthier. He contrasted that to the UK where they received a huge wave of Kashmiri refugees early on and a significantly larger part of their South Asian immigrant base hails from Pakistan.

He also pointed out that since the UK is only 8 hrs by plane to Pakistan (it would take that long just to cross Canada end-to-end), that it was considerably easier to keep ties with the homeland. A situation which Canada did not have, being several oceans and continents away.

All this meant easier integration for most South Asian immigrants to Canada. And he notably pointed out that those groups that Canada has seen terrorism from are first-generation immigrants who have come straight from the homeland, in the two ethnic groups that were in a similar class to many of the Kashmiri refugees to the UK: the Punjabis and Tamils. Ethnic groups who arrived as refugees still bearing old world grudges.

Posted by kEiThZ | Report as abusive

Austell,

Simple Question, If you are so much offended, why do you allows Indians in Australia?

Why don’t you just put a big placard at all Australian Airports saying “Indians are not allowed” and see how it plays out?

Indians are second largest group in Australia coming to study after chinese and owing to chinese economic stabilization, Indians will amount to largest student group by far in the coming decades, Apart being your second largest importer, we will in due time become raw material for one of your largest industries, Education.
What do you do with thousands of professors and numerous universities which significantly depend on Indians coming to Australia for education?

why don’t then Australians take out rallies against Indians (or any ethnic group for that matter) demanding revoking their visas?

Do you think we are worse than people who involve in organized crime and willing to blow themselves up for want of virgin girls in heaven?

Don’t you think a country’s culture is always fluid and changing and nothing as written on stone?

Don’t you think our other qualities like hardwork,strong family bonds, enterprise building and more importantly saving for the rainy day and for the kids are more important than ripping of few dollars from Australians, oh if they do why don’t you punish them in a legal way when it is so offensive?

Owing to near zero population growth rates, isn’t it natural that intellectuals in australia thought it would be good idea to allow some other ethnic populations into australia to induce some competetion who work hard and at the same day stabilize the falling growth rate to atleast replaceable levels?

Remember how almost all of the australian growth is fired by commodity markets due to its vast natural resources, if worlds growth Engines US,China and India were to undergo any recession it will have worst blow back effect and this is the reason Australia wants to build its declining technological edge vis-a-vis Asian countries like south Korea or japan. dont u think its sensible?

You want our investments in your natural resources, our students to come for education , to take jobs as cab drivers as most australians wont do so, stabilize your falling population growth, take jobs in middle income profession like accountants, software engineers,clerks,doctors,teachers but you resent all that comes with it namely being a little greedy and saving money for their kids.

You want to have a cake and eat it too! Ask your economists what would happen if you wont allow migrants and they in turn (Indians,Chinese and other ethnic groups) stop importanting stuff from Australia.

For all the xenophobia about asians they still form less than 9% of the population and it seems you cant stand it and australian economists do not fear of its economic decline due to changing cultural attitudes but from some rabid politicans like Pauline Lee Hanson who may come to power and undo what australia has acheived.

Posted by sensiblepatriot | Report as abusive

Austell:”You Indians look like a pack of hyenas, tearing into a lone vulnerable target defending his pride, it’s truely disgusting to watch”.

Thats what happens when you enter matured blogs with foolish rantings and without rudimentary understanding about intellectual depth the bloggers here have (of every ethnicity). Read all the posts in entirety.

While I tried to reconcile and tried to provide clarifications for my comments (saying they are not authoritative and cannot be generalized) and even one Indian trying to support him for a time being, his endless rantings pushed the button beyond redemption. And again read all the posts yourself to realize how he crossed our limits of patience.

“your english grammar is terrible”.

Can we remind you that English is not our mother tongue and most indians are multi-lingual (they can understand atleast 3 or more languages) and can Australians even think about it. And moreover this is not an English language Grammar competetion but a forum to discuss various opinions.

Posted by sensiblepatriot | Report as abusive

#include

int main(void){

if (tupak_shakur == shukaib.bhutto && shukaib.bhutto == mirza_usman){

printf(“Austell = %s\n”, ROFLLMAO);

}
else{
printf(“Holy Cow!! Reuters Pak blog is so popular in paradise!”);

}

return 0;
}

Posted by Seth09 | Report as abusive

You guys are all missing the point….forget all the india-aussie bashing….we’ve still to hear from Rex Minor on his ethnicity and why he believes racial superiority theories about Pashtuns.

Posted by kEiThZ | Report as abusive

@Austell
“I havn’t heard Brian say anything obviously derogatory about your country, other than imply the obvious truth that people know it as an overpopulated and grossly corrupt place”

Go to page number 2 for this blog’s comments section and see brian’s post of Jun 26, 2011 7:56 pm IST and read line number 5 (excluding blank lines). For your benefit I am copy pasting it here as is: “we let you come here from that @#%t hole of a country called India”. Is this not OBVIOUSLY derogatory by your standards?? May be that’s the difference between a country made of non-violence and a country made of…..well, we all know history of Australia.

It blows my mind that on one hand people like you claim to be representing majority in your country and being unhappy with Indians and on other had your government is permitting or rather encouraging your universities to INVITE (and NOT just allow) more and more students from India. Seems contradictory. It seems as if some intelligent ones in Australia do actually consider Indians equal in intellect to themselves.

By the way do you know that India is largest importer of cereals from Australia and China is the largest importer of iron/steel from Australia. Can your government afford a ban on imports from these two countries. Your so called paradise is NOT because of your culture, its a lie to say so. Your so called Paradise is because of your sheer good luck that ur land has so much resources beneath it and because there are SO MANY Indians and Chinese to consume those resources.

Someone intelligent said that root of all anger is always fear. So what is it that are you afraid of?

P.S.
I will report my own post as soon as it is posted so as to help the WHITE Australian man.

Posted by 007XXX | Report as abusive

KeithZ: “You go on and on ad naseaum about how India was mistreated during the Cold War. But not everything that happened during the Cold War period had to do with Cold War politics. Diplomatic relations between Canada and India cooled off after Canadian trust was violated when India specifically misused Canadian nuclear technology to build atomic weapons. If the situation were reversed, you don’t think India would cut off relations with a country that violated such a commitment?”

India would not cut off diplomatic relations with any country as much as possible. Heck, we have not cut off any relationship with even Pakistan. India misused Canadian nuclear technology for sure. But that has nothing to do with immigration policy. This is something that has been there all along. Every country has its own strict rules and they are dictated by geo-political situations. I had mentioned in my post that it was a lot easier to migrate to the US even during cold war days than Canada or UK. UK had the ridiculous virginity test requirement for Indian women entering their country in those days.

I do come to Vancouver BC a lot and I have a lot of my relatives settled there. Most of them are not from the elite group that you are mentioning – white collar immigrants. Many in my community rely on mutual support, run gas stations, grocery stores and move up the social ladder over a generation or two. The same case with my people in California. We have maintained our farming culture there and some of us have become major suppliers of agro-products.

Kindly do not paint difference in views as ignorance. You have your experience and I have mine. They may not provide the same perspective. This does not mean I an old-fart from the cold war era that you keep mentioning.

“The idea that the Cold War had anything to do with it is ludicrous.”

Ludicrous it might be. But cold war alliances did have an influence. You were not an Indian applying for visas to go to other countries for higher education in those days. Rejection rate was very high and for flimsy reasons. I know first hand because I have relatives who had to make many attempts before they were let in. If immigration policies were not that rigid, may be those who went in might not have hesitated about returning. Many stayed put after migrating because one never knows how immigration policies change. Now I am seeing a lot of Indians returning to India from the US and elsewhere because they know the rules are a lot more relaxed despite terrorism. Many from upper middle class are not even emigrating like before. Most of the immigration seems to be from lower rungs of the social ladder for a better chance in life and those are the ones encountering the ugly Australians.

Demographic differences do affect immigrant communities. People do tend to flock to their respective groups abroad, much like the Irish, Greeks, Italians and Polish do. They are all collectively Europeans but there is no European identity that unites people. It is their ethnic affinity that is strong. The same with people from India. There are strong ties to one’s specific group – Punjabi, Sikh, Bengali, Tamil etc. This is not a derogatory reference as you have mistakenly interpreted. This is real. And different communities deal with social interactions in their new lands of immigration differently. So when ignorant locals brand the acts of a few as that representing the whole sub-continent, counter arguments arise. People like Ganesh seem to be from the higher ranks of the social order and are highly educated. So they encounter a different set of people and they do not venture into circumstances that low scale people do often. Their experience is very different. And based on experience, everyone’s perspective is different. I have had garbage bag thrown at me in Sydney long ago. I have been mugged in Philadelphia. If someone asked me about my perspective, it will be based on my experience. And when many encounter a similar experience, a collective perspective emerges. Indian view of Australia or Canada or UK arises from such a collective experience over the years.

In New Jersey, immigration of Indians is very similar to that to UK. Most people are from business communities in India and take up low scale jobs to get in. And immigration happens through marriage and bringing the whole family in. They had a dot buster movement there staged by locals a decade or more ago. Most conflicts arise at the lower levels of economy. Life is rough and people can easily get agitated.

Most wealthy people who came into UK (and to a small extent to Canada and USA) in the 1970s were from East Africa. In those days, Indians were just beginning to make in roads through higher education opportunities. Only when the info tech boom hit the roof did many middle class and lower class Indians found and opportunity to emigrate on a large scale.

You may not agree with my observation. But it does not make my perspective an ignorant one. I am from India and I know the pulse of the land much better than you do. And I do give credit to your views as a Canadian and welcome that perspective. I do see a marked contrast between your view and that of the couple of Australians here. And that is a small enough sample that displays the differences between the cultures between the two places. I have mentioned before that Canada is the best country in an overall sense. I appreciate that in you and fellow Canadians to have made it that way. I hope the rest of the world follows what Canada and the US have done towards immigrants. Hope the Australians learn too that over time, contribution from immigrants will only make things better for them.

Small, little things might be an irritant. But in the long run people learn the values of the culture they have moved into and spread that value. That is how Gandhi and Nehru realized the need for independence and democratic values – by getting exposed to a Western culture that had those aspects well developed. They had to struggle to be accepted as equals and eventually it happened.

Posted by KPSingh | Report as abusive

Mr. Austell,

I wonder how your country would have faired without the abundant natural resources in terms of minerals and ores. I do agree with you that in general Western Europeans who colonized the other parts of the world, have done very well for themselves by using technology and scientific methods. They also have good democratic systems and values that involve courtesy for others, good hygienic standards etc.

I also agree that India has tremendous amounts of squalor, filth and what not. Ours is a very ancient culture and yours is very recent.

You have the advantage of being protected from all sides by the ocean and using modern military, you are able to protect your borders from invasions. No one has attempted to conquer Australia ever since it was founded. Whereas in Europe and other places, countries have been invaded for resources and territorial dominance. Our country has been invaded many times over thousands of years.

You really cannot look down upon people because of what they have got. Our system has evolved based on its own circumstances and surroundings. Your country has evolved in its own way, free of conflicts with other countries, not facing invasions, relatively peaceful life and so on. I’d say New Zealand is even a better country than yours. They have a good mix of natives and European settlers and the natives have not been wiped out unlike Australia.

Your compatriot did get nasty and he got his courtesy returned. That’s all. And in defense he is screaming out for help calling us racists. Instead of having contempt, it would do good if you people try to understand others and help them come out of the misery that you see them in and are averse to. By an accident of birth you are where you are and others are where they are. I don’t think you as an individual has done anything significant to help your country. If you had been born in a filthy environment, I am sure you too would be spitting on the walls and taking a leak on the streets.

What is important is to look at how fortunate you are and how unfortunate many others are for no mistake of theirs. May be a little compassion instead of arrogance or contempt would do a lot of good.

Our country was divided by the British colonialists using religion as the weapon. This was so that they could use the region that became Pakistan as a staging ground and garrison against the Russians. In fact the whole world was colonized by the divide and rule method. India is no exception to that. The British walked in at the death large empires in the sub-continent and picked up all the rubble to their benefit. One proof that Pakistan is the garrison for Western powers is evident even today – it never became a nation. It has been a military nation. But that’s another story.

When you say India’s image outside is made up of Taj Mahal, filth and poverty, I’d like to tell you that the image of Australia is also filled with the Sydney Opera House, Crocodile Dundee, Boomerang and rough talking/bad mouthing and xenophobic people. I am not making this up. That’s the image. Everything is not positive in the global outlook.

Enough said.

Posted by KPSingh01 | Report as abusive

@Austell
“We use our cows to uphold our health and economy, not worship them like lunatics”

What can I say now, you need to visit India that’s all I can say. Cows are not worshipped anymore. On the contrary India is a big exporter of beef to middle east. But again you are not listening.

While I do not deny the shortcoming in our system in India but in OUR culture we do not call names to countries. Have you seen any Indian here calling names to any countries not even to Pakistan despite that situation in Pakistan is nearly 10 times worse than in India. Instead of being sorry for the rudeness u r justifying it and that is enough to show you ever ignorant attitude. Criticizing is one thing and being rude and derogatory is another. As I told brian that if u want respect for your culture then learn to respect others as well. And I never called his remark as racist. I only said it was derogatory and uncalled for; but it seems u r too presuming to read and understand properly. And don’t worry about the world. Australia is NOT the whole world.

As for culture; it is always an EFFECT of economy and NEVER a cause. Economy changes culture and NOT vice-versa. Seems you are too proud to accept the truth.

“And don’t forget it was religious civil war that led to the splitting of your country into India and Pakistan”

Boy, you need lessons in India and Pakistan history. Civil war was INVENTED to divide the country by a group of narrow minded people in India at that time. But nevertheless I don’t expect u to understand, not anymore.

Anyway I am in no mood for an uncivil discussion with someone blinded with rage. I only c anger and mostly ignorance in your posts.

Suggestion: If you dislike India and Indians so much then why don’t u ask your government to penalise those Australian universities which INVITE and enrol Indian students. Ask your government to penalise the Australian universities that award scholarships to Indian students.

Sayonara.

P.S.
I will report this post as well. Happy WHITE Australian??

Posted by 007XXX | Report as abusive

Thanks Austell,

This is just getting really freaky… look at the length they are prepared to go to to excuse what they’ve said about Australians.

Look at the detail they are prepared to go into on subjects not even remotely connected to what is being said by us.

Look at the rudeness they try to pass of as intellectual conversation because they are proud of the way they have worded a particular insult. And the disgusting things being said about my Indian ex-girlfriend.

You would think they would see this as a sign that I am not racist, that I am willing to date an Indian girl for two years.

But no this doesn’t even register…. somehow it’s all about western colonialism and “what if?” this and “if you hate us so much then why not?” that.
Who the hell said we hate Indians?????? Most of them that I have got to know are polite and respectful. It is usually just the young men who have recently migrated and don’t speak our language or understand our culture yet who cause problems.

The issue here is not about us hating Indians. Australians have been accused of being racist, and I am defending us by saying that opinion is racist because it doesn’t take into account the reasons for conflict between some Australians and some immigrants.

I spelt these reasons out VERY clearly, and you persisted with racist remarks about my countrymen.

“What if Australia didn’t have any resources?”
Ok then compare Australia to a country that Does have vast resources… somewhere close by… say Indonesia. Why are they not as successful as us?

We “have the advantage of being protected from all sides by the ocean” do we? Did you get your degree in geo-strategical warfare in a cereal box?

Australia is famous for being almost impossible to defend exactly because of this reason, this is common knowledge.

As is the fact that we are loved and respected all over the world (India is NOT the world). And yes I have travelled the world and seen this first hand son.

We are known predominately for our animals, strange cultural quirks, toughness and dominance in many sports.

All you do is veil insults in apparently intelligent conversation. On the one hand you say you’re not being racist, then you turn around and say something like

” I’d say New Zealand is even a better country than yours. They have a good mix of natives and European settlers and the natives have not been wiped out unlike Australia.”

Wiped out? Where do these crazy accusations come from? Almost as crazy as kpsinghs accusations about my Indian partner.

Let me tell you something boy, her name was pardeep kaur, she was a beautiful girl, and we split up because I would not take her virginity.
She was held back socially in a big way by her parents and I no longer wanted a relationship of that intensity and secrecy. She went on to graduate from law school and move to the UK to escape her parents so she could live a normal, free life. She has not returned in almost 8 years.

007xxx, I don’t have the time or the patience for your conspiracies or sarcasm. I will address your idiocy though! I love this:

“As for culture; it is always an EFFECT of economy and NEVER a cause. Economy changes culture and NOT vice-versa. Seems you are too proud to accept the truth.”

You seem so sure of yourself??
So what you’re saying is that having a technologically advanced culture of conquest and imperialism will not benefit a state’s economy??

I’ll dumb it down for you… If my culture produces advanced ships and weapons like say imperial britain’s, and our culture uses those weapons to colonize countries say like India… that will not benefit Britain’s economy??

Well thanks for the vindication!

P.S. KPSingh – I believe Austell was not “by accident of birth” born in Australia, he became a citizen, pay attention.

Posted by brian-decree | Report as abusive

Speaking for myself.

This guy has cussed Indians, Aboriginees – humiliated their way of life which he and his like have usurped, called them cave men – and doesn’t like Libyans either, but oh my gosh don’t call him racist. He prefers to be labelled a member of the reformist White culture which has given the world nothing but goodies. His logic is very simple – he is free to criticise other cultures, call them names, if someone already in Australia says Autralians are good people its acceptable but whoever says Australians are not good and in fact considered boorish by many others is racist! Then comes the threat – don;t make life difficult for those of you already here – so what are you going to do? Batter them to oblivion? Take a hike.

Aren’t the white Australians also immigrants into Australia, even though centuries ago. And you abuse the original inhabitants? How respectful is that of your own original culture?

Just who do you think you are fooling? Only yourself. Re read your writings and take an honest look at them before calling in re-inforcements or asking for the thread to be shut. You are also feel free to correct my gammer! You started off pompously and went out with a whimper yelling “Momma”

Posted by DaraIndia | Report as abusive

What the heck are you guys arguing over Aussies not liking the Indians? what is this discussion about? it is off topic. Here is something that matters;

Brig. Aftab of Pakistan Army describes how millitants in Pakistan recieve support from Afghanistan.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yW0cDh31u Zg

Now get back to topic like good boys, this blog is about Pakistan, not India or Australia, ok. and take it easy everyone.

Posted by Umairpk | Report as abusive

How to get Pakistan to break with Islamic militants

http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/h ow-to-get-pakistan-to-break-with-islamic -militants/2011/06/29/AG8KHmsH_story.htm l

I completely disagree how Mr. Zalmay Khalilzad put all the blame on Pakistan, contrary to that Brig. Aftab Ahmed the operation commander of Pakistan Army in Mohmand agency has described the level of support millitants in Pakistan recieve from Afghan side of the broder. It is clear that Mr. Khalilzad does not understand and acknowledge the billions of dollars worth of losses, men and material lost in this war. Pakistan has nothing more to loose, nothing short of total victory against Pakistan’s enemies is acceptable.

Posted by Umairpk | Report as abusive

How to get Pakistan to break with Islamic militants

http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/h ow-to-get-pakistan-to-break-with-islamic -militants/2011/06/29/AG8KHmsH_story.htm l

I completely disagree how Mr. Zalmay Khalilzad put all the blame on Pakistan, contrary to that Brig. Aftab Ahmed the operational commander of Pakistan Army in Mohmand agency has described the level of support millitants in Pakistan recieve from Afghan side of the broder. It is clear that Mr. Khalilzad does not understand and acknowledge the billions of dollars worth of losses, men and material lost in this war. Pakistan has nothing more to loose, nothing short of total victory against Pakistan’s enemies is acceptable.

Posted by Umairpk | Report as abusive

How to get Pakistan to break with Islamic militants

http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/h ow-to-get-pakistan-to-break-with-islamic -militants/2011/06/29/AG8KHmsH_story.htm l

I completely disagree how Mr. Zalmay Khalilzad put all the blame on Pakistan, contrary to that Brig. Aftab Ahmed the operational commander of Pakistan Army in Mohmand agency has described the level of support millitants in Pakistan recieve from Afghan side of the broder. It is clear that Mr. Khalilzad does not understand and acknowledge the billions of dollars worth of losses, men and material lost in this war. Pakistan has nothing more to loose, nothing short of total victory against Pakistan’s enemies is acceptable.

Posted by Umairpk | Report as abusive

If Pakistan keeps blaming Afghanistan and vice versa, what chance is there of progress?

I think it is a well accepted fact that Pakistan does make a difference between good and bad and considers some militants as assets and some as enemy. That too will not solve much. Isn;t it time now to realise the futility of this tight rope walk?

Hasn’t the time to turn over a new leaf arrived? If one doen’t relaise this now, there is no hope of change.

BTW I am glad someone brought this thread back to a sensible path again.

Posted by DaraIndia | Report as abusive

I think all countries in the neighborhood, India, Pakistan and Afghanistan should meet and have an open and honest discussion about how to bring peace to the region over a decade’s time. All parties must pledge to let go off all past issues or postpone their resolution to a latter time and focus exclusively on peace first. Without peace guaranteed, nothing can be built. And they should pledge to help each other in sustaining peace. Five years of concerted effort at peace will change everything radically. I am sure everyone is tired of wars, militancy, suicide bombs and economic misery.

Posted by KPSingh01 | Report as abusive

I think all countries in the neighborhood, India, Pakistan and Afghanistan should meet and have an open and honest discussion about how to bring peace to the region over a decade’s time. All parties must pledge to let go off all past issues or postpone their resolution to a latter time and focus exclusively on peace first. Without peace guaranteed, nothing can be built. And they should pledge to help each other in sustaining peace. Five years of concerted effort at peace will change everything radically. I am sure everyone is tired of wars, militancy, suicide bombs and economic misery.

Posted by KPSingh01 | Report as abusive

KP,
Although you have a point here, My optimism is more cautious. Since we have experienced similiar situations before when the talks have suddenly collapsed, I wish to see it in a slightly different way.

1.We had similiar situations in the past when talks between Nawaz Sharif and Vajpayee have collapsed owing to the sudden development at the kargil border. At that time Military was a stronger force both morally, politically and materially.

2.The last time the talks were heading towards any semblance of breakthrough was during musharraf regime who himself was a dictator and a policy change without involvement of all the sections of the society (atleast the influential ones) will never be lasting in nature.

3.We have to be careful in assessing the current situation because Pakistan Army bogged down in the west and the country, whose economy in doldrums, is always willing to negotiate. Just like naxals call for peace talks when the counter-insurgency is raging, but only to have a breathing space. I hope Pakistan’s deep state will not take the talks with India (to show to the world and US ) as a tactical retreat to allow breathing space for the Army which is still the main arbiter as far as security and foreign policy is concerned.

4. We need more evidence on this and we must wait patiently. Pakistani state is seen to be reconciling at the moment but given a rebounded economy and an Army with regained confidence, will the Pakistani authorities show the same maturity or fall back to their old tactics.

5.Two important changes can be used to gauge the situation A)If the Pakistani authorities show atleast a limited sense of Action related to 26/11 and arrests Hafiz sayeed.
b)Army with its media empire doesn’t run villification and smear campaighns against the politicians who have more reasons to yearn for peace. (Obviously they want to make money which is possible only in a peaceful environment).

6.The nature of the Army will unravel only after Americans withdrawl somewhere around 2014. With a breathing space available, a possible rebound in the economy and pakistani polity as fractious as it has even been, Will the pakistani army sniff the chance and be tempted to take over the power (either overtly or more likely in a covert manner).If it is so, then we are back to square one. Although I’ve said it before that the economic gap between India and Pak would be even greater and this is the real test for the Pakistani security establishment.

Posted by sensiblepatriot | Report as abusive

umairpk:”nothing short of total victory against Pakistan’s enemies is acceptable”.

Umair,
Who’s the enemy?

Posted by sensiblepatriot | Report as abusive

@Umairpk
Take it easy, the indian mob has turned into hyenas! In your absence they turned their attention to Australia.

These people have free use of name calling in their native languages, no restriction on ethics and morals and yet they like to be accepted and treated equals in western societies. I admire Pashtoon people, so I am named a Pashtoon, and a Pakistani living in Germany.

I have lived in Australia for some years and if anyone regards Australian society as a raciast one then I have no interest to communicate with morons. Australia is a beautiful country, a beautiful continent with all its natural beauty and the Barrier Rief. The Australian Govts have done a lot more than other western countries to protect its natural wealth. It has been a major error in Australian immigration policy, in my view,to allow uncontrolled immigration from the Asian countries or to allow new immigrants to run taxi business or run night shops without having a period of orientation and without the ability to speak the language. My advice to the Australian Govt. would be to send unqualified immigrants not capable of speaking English for community service in aborigines villages.

This is a Pakistan now or never blog but the subject is Taliban and Afghanistan. The talibans have now the intiative and the Americans and its allies are on the run. Pakistan army double role in dealing with its own citizens, or with the USA has lost them the credibility with ordinary folks. Pakistan civilian Govt. is from the underworld and equaly has no credibility in the domestic or foreign arena. It is time for the top brass to reflect and leave through the backdoor while there is still time left, the revolution has reached your land. No power in the world can now stop the advance of those moving forces, neither the the Yemeni, Syrian or Pakistan President. Even the small contngent of CIA operatives in the tribal areas who are directing drone attacks with agreement of Pakistan army have refused to leave. Pakistan Army is deliberately loosing the frontier with Afghanistan, the foreign elements will now have to be cleared by the Pashtoon tribes themselves.

Have a nice discussion with your enemy!

Rex Minor

Posted by pakistan | Report as abusive

Daraindia,

Don’t know what you’re talking about… I havn’t said anything about your “way of life”. And have made no comment on Libya or Libyans at all.

These comments are just crazy. If you are going to say something like that provide a quote, like this:

“Aren’t the white Australians also immigrants into Australia, even though centuries ago. And you abuse the original inhabitants? How respectful is that of your own original culture?”

1) So were the Aboriginals.
2) Even if the height of their population remained today, the land that still belongs to them would exceed the land per capita that white australians are allowed today.
To put this in perspective, at their highest population level in history each Aboriginal had about 24 square km of land. Each Indian has 20 metres squared. Thats a factor of 1200.

3) You are right, we are immigrants, but not from Britain, from all over the world. (my family was from Canada) The original settlers were convicts, that is the poor and desperate classes of UK society, kidnapped and forced to make the journey out here. So we have as much connection to our “original culture” in a way (being imperial britain), as you put it, as India does.

We have very little respect for this culture, and figures in our history who defied it (like ned kelly) have become heroes.

For someone to say that WE have mistreated the Aboriginals does not even register to most Australians.

Yes we sympathise with the crimes of imperial Britain, but most of us don’t consider this a real part of our identity seeing as we are ourselves historical victims of imperial Britain in more than one way, because we have never taken part ourselves in any racist or oppressive behavior and because we are so multicultural it would be almost impossible to function in our society with this attitude.

Racists are laughed at and singled out in Australia. Like Pauline Hanson and her ‘one nation’ party. She is the butt of all jokes.

For someone so critical of a race or ethnic group you don’t seem to know anything about it, so stop your whinging and your racism. If asking demanding action on racism is ‘whimpering’ as you put it, then you lose the right to complain when people insult your race. Full stop.

For the record this is the definition of a racist statement:
“whoever says Australians are not good and in fact considered boorish by many others is racist!”

You are a racist.

You should have your account deleted.

Pakistan,

A part of you wants to ignore racism, but much is lost when good men do nothing.
We worked bloody hard to carve a first class society out of a deadly and unforgiving landscape, and to earn the respect and admiration of the world, and I’ll have them pry it out of my cold dead hands before I let a pack of cheap, desperate imposters tarnish our outstanding reputation.

Posted by brian-decree | Report as abusive

It would appear that the Indian Govt. have after all started a sterilization program to curb the overgrowth of its population.

Rex News

Posted by pakistan | Report as abusive

PS
My lap top is playing games today, but the news is real. I wonder which of the castes would be given the priority?
And what about those who are now living abroad?

Rex Minor

Posted by pakistan | Report as abusive

You are right, not Libyan but Lebonese:

“Another group western culture in Australia has a problem with is Lebenese and some other mediterranian guido like male cultures. This is because they come here and form criminal gangs of street thugs who perpetrate some of the worst and most aggressive street crimes in the country.”

“Western culture in Australia also clashes with aboriginal culture and Asian culture to a large extent.

They fight among eachother almost constantly and are extremely prone to violent criminal behavior despite having access to free land, free housing and VIP social security and legal services.

They are of the oldest yet most primative races on the planet, to put this into perspective, they have been in Australia for as long as 80,000 years and their culture never moved past stick technology. Their greatest creations in this time: A curved throwing stick (boomerang). And a stick for throwing another stick further (woomera). They also realised in this time that if you take a flat stick, attach it to a piece of string and sing it around it makes a loud vibrating noise as it spins.

They are literally modern day cave men.”

As for your comment regarding my country Im not going to bother finding it went something like “Your #$%$#% country India”

Now at least take a hike!

You are NOT rascist and I have the Taj mahal to sell!

Posted by DaraIndia | Report as abusive

Further Mister Brian_decree,

Now if the above doesn’t make you a racist what is it that I have said that makes me one? Quotes please. Somewhere you even mentioned that I am the worst kind of racist – reasons please with quotes. If you can, please elaborate on this so called Western culture.

I see you link Australian culture to Britain and Canada perhaps – basically to the ‘West’. That is your personal culture only. How Australia can be considered ‘west’ is beyond me. Isn’t the term ‘ West’ also more a conglomeration of white countries and not a gepgraphical description? Otherwise Brazil and Chile have more claim to be known as the West than Australia. It is also about colour isn’t it?

Since we are talking of Australia and not you personally, I see original Australian culture as Aboriginal. All this talk of how much land they have is semantical jugglery. How much say, repeat say, do they have in the running of their land, it was theirs to start with or is that also in dispute? I really would like to be enlightened on this.

Let me maybe save you the trouble of looking for or understanding what I said when I joined this debate, which is after you made those racist statement which I have quoted.

I think racism is all pervasive and universal. We are all racists, admittedly or not – but I will still like you to give your reasons for calling me racist and most racist according to your logic while condoning your own racial behaviour. Most will vehemently deny and offer convoluted confusing opinions on what racism is – but at heart we are all guilty.

I think we all judge people of other cultures and backgrounds and tend to highlight their drawbacks and that is what makes a racist to me. Holding a people or group’s background and way of life against them. In short, not trying to understand other cultures and assimilate, but highlight the differences only, as you have done here at great length.

Australia is not the only country where people have gone for economic betterment. It may surprise you there are many foreigners including what you call ‘westerners’ in India who have come here for the same reason. There are many in Sri Lanka and many in the far East also. We don’t call them immigrants, we try to assimilate and understand them and what we see as different behaviour and customs as compared to ours. People here of all faiths go to Sufi and Muslim shrines, attend midnight mass on Christmas and Easter, how many there go to temples or mosques? We celebrate Buddhist and Sikh festivals as pour own, that is assimilation. Try it, you will not be so anti and prejudiced against anyone not from your ‘ western culture’.

And finally, since you ask for my account to be cancelled, believe me, if you had anything to do with this site, I would voluntarily suspend and cancel my account here.

Posted by DaraIndia | Report as abusive

Austell,

Expect nothing else from you.

Here we go again, bad english, cant understand. Are you for real? Should I speak in Hindi, Maharashtrian, or Urdu then?

Heres what you say:
“”Your posts are extremely difficult to follow as they are lucid, ….” Thats an oxymoron if ever there was.

Lucid: expressed clearly; easy to understand.

You are the best example of some one jumping on to a running train and then asking where is it going. read the whole thread and understand what has happened. Don’t just take off like an idiot.

Please read this very carefully. Its by your client.

JUN 26, 2011
10:26 AM EDT

“…. I should explain, when we let you come here from that @#%t hole of a country called India you are all so desperate to escape, and you steal from and rip off ”

I have explained my stand on racism, which you admit you are unable to comprehend. Your problem.

Vindicated him of racism???

Your words again “Except for the last comment about modern day cavemen.” so what does that mean? Racist or inncoent? Halfway, 25%, 70%??

If you followed my comments earlier and got someone to explain them to you, you would see that I have cussed his country just as he has abused mine. For that he calls me the worst type of racist. But he is lily white? lmao.

You have made an infructious and irrelevant discussion ( again what I said in my second comment on the subject) even more so.

Posted by DaraIndia | Report as abusive

Australia is the greatest country in the world. They have successfully maintained their culture (whatever that is) and others do not have the right to go there and spoil it. Racism is an English word. So only the English and their descendants can call others with that word. If others want to use that word, they have to come up with their own ones in whatever language they use. If you go to Australia, you have to blend in. If you can bleach your skin, and hair, that would be a start. Try getting used to wearing blue contact lenses. Australians do not need anyone. They are self sufficient. They make their own wool and wear them. They mine ores and dump them on the other side of the continent. They make their own cars, computers and what not. To contain population explosion, they have put the natives in reservations and given them a lot of booze to go with it. You are welcome to work in Australia if you accept small, menial jobs and stay poor and subservient.

This is the impression I have after reading the comments by a couple of croc-dundees from there. Don’t know how many more like them are there. They can keep it and I am definitely not venturing there even for a stop over flight. This was the country that tried to keep cricketing relations with South Africa during the Apartheid days. Things don’t change fast. I’d suggest to fellow Indians to stay away from dangerous places of this kind. Look at the odds we are up against. Let us progress on and one day they will be begging for trade with us. We have done that with cricket already. Money talks. Let us build our economic strength. Then we will see who takes the effort to adjust themselves.

Enough said. Guys do not waste your time with these clowns. They keep keep their country and shove it.

Posted by KPSingh01 | Report as abusive

@Brian-decree
I would cool down. There are people who with their comment try to get the best from their readers and then there ae those whose aim is to get the worst out of the one they confront. Unfortunately the this blog is crowded by the latter type. Indian population is a major problem not only for the larger world but also for the Indian Govt. They have just started the sterilization program, knowing very well that unless certain drastic steps are taken to curb the growth, India is forecast to become the largest populated country in the world by 2030.

They appear to be satisfied in the multi-cultie country such as the USA and Canada. In Germany a premier of the largest province once said, kinder statt Inder! The slogan was taken out of context and the Premier was blamed for making raciast comments. India is on its way to become an economic power of the future, but culturaly they are unlikely to appreciate what the western culture and the western civilisation is? This is not the forum to give lessons about the values of the European and Australian culture, which its habitants and the democatically elected Govts. intend to maintain.

Rex Minor

Posted by pakistan | Report as abusive

kpsingh01″:”This was the country that tried to keep cricketing relations with South Africa during the Apartheid days”.
Precisely and while Australia is heavily dependent on Asian economies for their commidity exports (no prizes for guessing from where they are able to provide freebies and entitlements to the public) they are the same people accusing our country as sh*t hole. Strangely they dont seem to mind when they sell us their minerals or other goods and service us with a smile on their face. Well I suspected its a false smile anyway.

http://www.marketwatch.com/story/imf-say s-australia-more-dependent-on-emerging-a sia-2011-04-28

However I forgot to say onething. Hail Australia!! ;-)

Posted by sensiblepatriot | Report as abusive

@Umairpk
Soy, you have not understood what Zalmay Khalizad commentsimply. Afghnistan Govt have never recognised Pakistan border with Afghanistan; dividing into two the Pashtoon tribes living on both sides of the border. Pakistan army under Gen. Kyani fell into the trap and started military operations in the area (without any agreement from the autonomous tribal chiefs) which is inhabited by the same tribe on both sides of the border.

Your remarks about militancy coming from Afghanistan simply confirms the position of Afghanistan. The Pashtoon leaders such as khalizad and karzai are definitely, with support from the USA would eventualy demand from the Punjabi and Sindhi coolition Govt. of Pakistan to surrender the entire tribal territory in favour of Afghanista thereby allowing Afghanistan the direct passage to the warm waters.

Rex Minor

Posted by pakistan | Report as abusive

For Australians

It would seem that Australia would have lots of opportunities to get rid of unwanted immigrants by putting them on the container ships when shipping raw materials to the emerging markets.

What do you reckon, the European Govts. involvement with the unwanted immigrants is? On a regular basis they are being gathered in reservations and then after the court order put on the trains, ships or aircraft to give them a comfortable free passage to their home country.

Rex Minor

Posted by pakistan | Report as abusive

The reason that aboriginals in Australia were backward because they were isolated from rest of the world. Just like the Red-Indians in America they had no chance of knowing the sweeping changes happening in the world.

It is indeed an accident that they found themselves in australia. If one is curious about history they can read how Romans realized how backward they were when the Chinese and Indians started exporting Silk and Cotton clothes to Romans who were then still only wearing animal skin. The silk exports from China and India literally pushed the roman empire into bankruptsy.

For all the western knowledge and your gungho, the last two centuries have been an aberration because prior to that Indian and Chinese economies ruled the world sharing some 50% of the GDP. As KP said, the picked the rubble from the declining large empires of chna and India and from the colonialism they pushed onto us they were able to build the prosperity.

I’ve seen bloggers here expecting oxford english. Well they must know language is for communication and as we dont own it as our mother tongue mistakes are bound to happen. Normally Asians are multi-lingual since birth bcoz of multicultural nature of India (and dont learn languages as part education).

Posted by sensiblepatriot | Report as abusive

Watch out Mr. Patriot lest the murderous Australian thugs should create any problems for your fellow Indians in the paradise. In case somebody missed, this is threat one of the Aussie recently posted:

“For the record, this is the kind of disgusting behavior that results in the racial violence we have seen recently in Australia towards Indians

You are all acting in a very irresponsible and provocative manner, this will make the situation for your compatriots here much more difficult.”

What more, from crying about no-racism-here-in-Australia in the beginning he went on to not only accepting it but admitting on morally supporting violent racist attacks as well!

Posted by Seth09 | Report as abusive

Crocodile dundees and Pashtun cavemen find common solace in berating Indians! Likewise Nazis and the Arabs found common comfort against the Jews. Prejudice and hatred makes strange bed-fellows. However they belong to each other. I wonder how they’d tackle each other, having been known for their notoriety for violence. They’d definitely like Indians who look down upon their own people. There are plenty of such brown sahibs both in India and abroad. I for one will stick with India no matter how bad things are or how petty most people are. I know as we make progress and regain our glory, everything will fall in place. We were a glorious nation once and we are headed that way again. Pushtuns can live in their caves and Dundees can live in their desert island. It hardly matters to me what they think anymore.

Posted by KPSingh01 | Report as abusive

I wouldn’t lower and compare any visiting Crocodile Dundee to the in-house jihadi pest aka minor low life :-;

Posted by netizen | Report as abusive

It’s amusing and sad at the same time to read this Indo-Australian war of words. As an Indian who is an Australian citizen and has lived in Australia for more than a decade, I straddle both sides of this debate, for better or worse.

I can see something interesting going on here. The statements made by posters in defence of their own country (whether India or Australia) tend to be true and reasonable. I can say this because I’ve lived in both countries and understood enough of the background of each. In contrast, the statements and accusations they make about the other country are often unjustified exaggerations or outright untruths, based more on prejudice, hearsay, distorted inputs from a sensationalist media, or generalisations made from observation of a few samples. These then tend to anger the other side further and provoke similar comments, perpetuating the cycle.

Perhaps this thread is not off-topic after all. It perhaps shows that the Indo-Pakistani situation of mutual mistrust and the consequent political stand-off is based on a more universal human characteristic.

It tells me that we know ourselves better than we know the other, but we often enter into debate believing we know both equally well. It brings home to me the truth that one needs to walk a mile in another’s shoes. It’s not my place to lecture anyone, but please try and consider that the other party may not be as bad as you may think and may have a valid point too.

Regards,
Ganesh Prasad

Posted by prasadgc | Report as abusive

“Also what seems to be another big difference between the two sides here is that the Indians seem to be amazed at the standards of living we have here. They are unable to comprehend how anything could be disrespectful towards our culture!??”

Did not want to comment any further. But this is blind pride. There are many other countries in this world that are as beautiful, advanced and better. Indians go to all those places and surprisingly one does not hear of that much tension between Indians and the “natives” as one hears about Australia. Indian media just does not concoct stories only about Australia all of a sudden. There must be a reason why there is friction between Australians and Indians a lot more recently than elsewhere. Many Indians have moved to New zealand as well at the same time and one does not hear of New Zealanders calling Indians as rats, beating them up and calling India a %$#@hole. That shows the difference between Australians and the other Western nations today. Australians alone are not living in paradise. This is all pointing to something specific towards Australia and no other country. The other countries probably have more tolerance towards non-whites? May be Australia is just beginning to experience this influx of non-whites in large numbers? There is something specific that stands out. All Indians who go abroad are not awestruck by going to Australia. It is mostly urban culture which many Indians today are very much familiar with. Many go to Hong Kong, San Francisco, Toronto, New York, LA, Singapore etc and Sydney or Melbourne is not anything uniquely better than those cities. And I do not hear of attacks specifically towards Indians in those cities except for the ones in Australia. And people in those countries do not call India a %$#@hole as frequently as Australians do. The same people drive cabs in many of these metros as well. No one is complaining about them as much as you guys do.

And you are guys screaming to the Reuters moderators to kick us out of here when we provide our side of arguments countering yours. Just like you will not accept our view point, we do not want to either. Our mutual perspectives are antagonistic today. India is what it is. But every Indian is not a rat. Likewise every white man is not a racist, but there sure are some. I have encountered them myself and my reactions arise from my own experience.

So long as you place yourself in a high pedestal and talk down to us, do not expect us to stay quiet. You throw sh#t at us and we will bury you in it.

Posted by KPSingh01 | Report as abusive

These people have free use of name calling in their native languages, no restriction on ethics and morals and yet they like to be accepted and treated equals in western societies. I admire Pashtoon people, so I am named a Pashtoon, and a Pakistani living in Germany. -Rex Minor

You were labelled a German residents because your past comments indicated you are living in Germany. Were you lying then or are you lying now?

You are labelled a Pakhtun or a Paskistani because you harbour racially supremacist views about Pashtuns. I would consider a white southern American who came into a forum, proclaiming the invicibility of the White race and their right to batter those of other minorities to be a member of the KKK. Your views are equally abhorrent.

Posted by kEiThZ | Report as abusive

Keith,

Water off a duck’s back.

Name calling is all he knows and that is the limit of his input on this site. Do you really read it all? Hats off to you.

On second thoughts – I guess it needed to be said once and spelt out in black and white.

Posted by DaraIndia | Report as abusive

Racism is deep rooted in Indian caste system, which is part of its culture and so called hinduism. India has taken the step to make the caste system illegal, but in practice according to media reports it is deep rooted and would require thousands of years to eliminate it. Japan which practices shituism is equaly influenced by Racism. India in modern times practices slavery but calls it bonded labour. For blacks and coloured people, the so called white are racists whenever they face intolerence or discrimination from them.

Those who talk about Nazis should know that Indian Govt is now forced to satrt a sterilization program to curb the Indian population growth, and to the Indian who now claim to be an australian citizen and talked about anglo australians and have been demonstrating the mentality of a mob that this is not Australian like. There are only one people in Australia called ‘Aussies’! Try to integrate into the Australian culture so that there are no Indo Australians. And those Indians who are sitting in Canada may I suggest that you show your anger and frustration against those back home who have hurt your loved ones and if this is not possible then join the canadian contingent in Afghanistan and learn to know the Pashtoons from the near. Indians are naturaly allowed to go to countries who are more tolerant than others, too bad the cave man dd not mention countries in Africa?

Rex Minor

Posted by pakistan | Report as abusive

Austell,
Lets take a step back and start appreciating each other’s complex nature of society.
I would say ours and you could say about australia, correct our wrong perceptions and leave it at that.

1.India is easily the largest experiment ever attempted in bring people together to form a nation and a composite culture of more than 5500 years.

2.People of different cultures migrated to India well before the Migration to west started in late 19th century. We did not have problems accomadating them for fear of being swamped or for the intelerant attitude to force down our values through their necks. Greeks,Huns,central asians all took refuge in India without us raising an eyebrow and our large empires accomodated them. Pharsis a religious group found refuge in India after Islamic invasions routed them out and europeans rejected in accepting them.

3.India’s economic power was so prominent that the world named a whole ocean under India as Indian ocean. Europeans were so desperate to find a sea route to India that somebody ended in west discovered America and named the tribes Indian!! Europeans had to wage wars with Islamic rulers in Turkey (ottoman empire) to reclaim silk route which connected India and China.

4.India and china alternated between largest economies till the mechanized industrialization came into europe. The industrialization was itself a side-effect of trying to invent bigger ships and mechanized systems able to support long navigation to reach India. Britain had to support its growing merchandise with India that it went to drawing board designed bigger,stronger and combat ready ships which enabled to became a maritime power. This at the time the empires in India due to time fatigue were crumbling.

5.If Indians are proud people, their 5500 year culture makes them so and were socially (in accomodating different races), economically(it alternated between 1st and second greate economy) and politically (India gave 4 major religions Hindu,Buddhism,Sikhism and jainism while accomodating other worlds extinct religions) successful.
At the time Europeans were witch hunting Gypsies and prosecuting Jews, India allowed them.

6.The case of caste is curious because in Europe too they existed until enlightment changed the society (French revolution) drastically.
http://www.beechmontcrest.com/guilds_of_ europe.htm

Indian Kings not only allowed other races into India but also accomodated their social autonomy. Over the time they slowly integrated into society (and composite hindu religion) with their own social mores. In India we have muslims (Doodekula group) who worship Indian Gods (Hanuman and God Personified as ape) to christians who are both Hindu and Christian (the symbol of cross finds its palce along with Indian Gods). Such is the amalgamation which is unthinkable to many in the west.
western thinkers themselves criticized some aspects of western tolerance which borne out of My God is the real god(abrahmic religions which are exclucivist and supremacist view that their God is the real god). Even though most of westerners are today agnostic or irreligious this supremacist view continues.
The penchant for speaking for entire human race remained through ideologies of Eugenics or comminism or unaccomadating western liberalism(you are still virgin! you must be backward). It is this single view of world into black and white which ended in appreciating only the materialistic notions of life based on monolithic views.

Just like European guilds specialized in specific professions, different professions were given different caste names and you can see that caste owe their roots in different professions (although most of them do not fit in today’s society).
The Hindu religion noted the existing social mores and provided an observation about existing social differences but did not professe a caste based division of society (this is something Rex must know and realize).

If is because of the social autonomy that either muslim rulers or christian missionaries found impossible to convert entire society much to their chagrin. In order to face the heat of Islamic invasion (china didn’t have any because it was geographical distant), they protected social autonomy in some 6600 groups. You can convert one group but how can you if we had 6600 of them!!

The caste system was always fluid and not solid in nature. social castes Perceived to be lower moved up (marathas) and castes perceived higher were pushed downward(brahmins,kshyatriyas) with social transformations.The intermarriages were common too.

The case of dalits (most oppressed caste and we dont mingle in expressing that) is an even more of a curious case. The dalits were mostly soldiers of defeated kings who were outcasted by the victorious kings and also are groups who formed buddhist sections of the society.
When buddhism was in decline more to social reasons (renunciation without serving family or society) and when society realized its thought process was incapable of defending the geographical integrity of a nation there were outcasted (Incidentally buddhists realized and crated more macho cult-vajrayana by the time it became extinct in India). Most of Pakistan and Bangladesh were actually buddhist dominated regions of the subcontinent.
Nevertheless the caste is a relic in India and does not exist as deeply in society as some foreigners think. It is more diluted and is on it way out.

7.Unlike many nations India faces two nuclear neighbours and doesn’t crave for other’s land. India had to develop wholesomely working,spending and building its nuclear and space programs and at the same time developing its economy and improving its people’s standards. India did not have the luxury of surviving under Natos defence shields to have a single mined focus on development and cannot be a pet of America in this regard.

8.Indians are proud because they are confident of recliaming their position as leading economy (1st or second) by middle of the 21st century (not ppp but nominal terms). India’s march to economic greatness is an inevitability is what most believe and the astonishing growth rates is an envy and this speed of growth we believe will be sustained for next three decades due to demogrphic dividend and globalisation.

Australians don’t criticize chinese (no more about their authoritarian attitudes when australia stopped to comment on tibet) for fear of losing the market for their commodities. When china slows down owing to economic and demographic maturity, India replaces it. Well, The same thing is going to happen with India as they are about to close ranks with china regarding australias exports and we can already see this in some sections of autralian society when their proud (and almost foolish)intenational nuclear treaty on NPT was to be diluted to allow trade with India.

Posted by sensiblepatriot | Report as abusive

Austel,

“daraindia, bet that made your day to pick up on the lucid / not lucid typo.. let me know when you finish mastrubating over it though…”

Vindicates my comments and opinion, as nothing else could, on your beautiful culture, and exhibits the sublime purity of your mind and upbringing.

You bet you made my day!!!!

I am wondering, even now, why I respond.

Posted by DaraIndia | Report as abusive

Wonder all you like daraindia, we know why you do….. your craft is argument, and your addiction, you must have the last word.

It’s why you blog in the first place, you need that kind of gratification.

Or self ‘vindication’ as you call it..

Posted by brian-decree | Report as abusive

ps to my earlier comment:

Notice all questions remain unanswered just nonsensical, immature writing for the sake of saving face. The issue as often happens quietly ignored.

Expect nothing better……but you may both have the last word, ’cause I’ve had mine now.

Posted by DaraIndia | Report as abusive

What I admire about Indians is that they are people of dreams! An indian child lies to feel better, not in any way to deceive someone, a documentry film was shown on the German television last month. His mother could not tell the child that God almighty forbids it. Hinduism is not a religion at least in english language, nor is the shintuism. Indians do not believe in the superhuman God which demands obedience and worship. Immanuel Kant(1724-1804) German Philosopher said that morality requires the belief in the existance of God, freedom and immortality, because without their existance there can be no morality. All western constitutions are based on the values outlined in scriptures.

India was never a single unit in its history and did become one country under the Brits. It is now split in three and its future is unknown, since it has failed similar to Pakistan to become a Nation.

Hinduism has been extended to include atheists in their midst and no one should be surprised one day to learn that muslims are also a caste and fits into Hinduism philosophy. In practice we watch that the caretaker of dead bodies refused to cremate the dead body of a University Professor until he got agreement from the Professor’s family members to support the Caretaker’s son obtaining entry into the university.

The world has always been interdependent, but the idea that other countries are under obligation to accept Indians as immigrants unconditionaly or to provide natural resources for Indian growing economy then the Indian lot on this forum atleast is very unrealistic to say the least.
India must do a clean up within and infront of its own house before it ventures to criticise China or any other country’s policies. I am sure that Indian Govt. would not consider it friendly if Australian Govt were to describe Indian army suppression in Kashmir as a serious violation of human rights?

Rex Minor

Posted by pakistan | Report as abusive

Austell: “Of course we are proud, this might be hard to understand for you. Your hypothetical comparisons are ridiculous. The only reason you even know about these very few incidents in victoria is because your media decided to make an issue out of it.”

Just by making a sweeping statement that my comparisons are hypothetical, you have denied yourself an opportunity to reason and think. But that I know arises out of pride. An Australian missionary got killed by religious fanatics in India a few years ago and your media went gaga over it too. This does not mean I condone such violence. When citizens of a nation are under danger abroad, every nation responds the same way, media included. Aussie media has been quite vocal about umpire Daryl Harper’s quick exit after the Kingston test due to complaints lodged by the Indian team. Every country is concerned about the safety and welfare of its citizens abroad and India is no exception. It is not exaggeration. Many caucasian women get raped in places like Delhi and Goa and there is a lot of media attention for it in the press as well. Countries have the right to be concerned about their citizens and media is the one that prods the government to step in. Without the media, governments tend to ignore most of the issues.

“Of course we are proud, this might be hard to understand for you”

There is a stark difference being proud and being arrogant. Everyone is proud of his heritage and nation. Clashes arise with you folks (both in these blogs and on the streets) because arrogance is sensed. You need to come off this “we are superior” mindset. You may not realize it, but your words do display it. And the response comes accordingly. You are looking down upon others and expect them to take some of your asinine remarks because you see yourselves above us and others. Those days are over. You will get back what you give.

“I believe Brian called for your account to be closed because racism is strictly forbidden in reuters code of conduct as it is extremely offensive and provokes argument.”

Accusations do not turn into racist comments. And you do not get to define racism to others. Whenever someone counter argues they become racists and those who agree with your silly perspective are not racists. It doesn’t work that way. And Mr. Brian Dundee does not have the right to call the shots here. None of us have used terribly abusive words here. You cannot expect us to take insults because you are proud and not retaliate. The guy called may nation a s$#thole. Ask him to apologize for that. He did that without caring for others’ sentiments and in a public forum of this kind. May be he needs to be reported and thrown out of here.

“JUL 3, 2011
4:40 AM EDT
KPsingh,

I’m not saying all Indians are racist, just a few here. A tiny minority really. I would never say ‘Indians’ are racist or any nationality is racist, these are just racist comments.

I believe Brian called for your account to be closed because racism is strictly forbidden in reuters code of conduct as it is extremely offensive and provokes argument.

You shouldn’t pretend to be intelligent and civil on the one hand and complain about this on the other, it makes you look devious…

Of course we are proud, this might be hard to understand for you. Your hypothetical comparisons are ridiculous. The only reason you even know about these very few incidents in victoria is because your media decided to make an issue out of it.

“How many people were victims of this “racism” as you call it in Australia? 5? 10? And you know what the investigation found….. that there was no evidence whatsoever to conclude they were race related events. They were robberies and crimes of opportunity.”

Oh, I thought your country is paradise on earth. You have crime there too? I didn’t know! Crimes of opportunity eh! In paradise! No wonder you are so proud. Which investigation are you referring to? Every one of them was found to be devoid of evidence? And by the way, here is an article that appeared in the TIME magazine:

http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0  ,8599,1903038,00.html

The title itself says “racial attacks”. And BTW, TIME is not an Indian magazine.

Here is another one:

http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0  ,8599,1921482,00.html

As far racism in India, I do not deny it does not exist. Racism, casteism, class prejudice etc are prevalent across different sections of the society. India is like EU, many diverse cultures and groups under a single banner. One cannot generalize anything about India. What you accuse of, will fit one or some groups and not all. But in general, because of over crowding, people have learned to put up with a lot of issues that someone in a country like yours cannot understand or comprehend. So when Indians come to countries like yours, they expect things to be better and not the same thing they have been seeing back home.

“You say most of Australia is urban like India…… this is one of the most ridiculous things you’ve said yet. Australia is EXTREMELY spaced out with hardly any of the land actually used by humans.”

Most of Aussie population is confined to the five big cities. The rest is mostly barren desert. There are farming communities surrounding the big cities and it is quite urban. I never said India is urban. India’s majority population is farming based. Either you have misunderstood what I have said or are distorting it to keep the argument up.

“Brian and I were referring to some Australians ‘not getting along with’ some Indians, not any racism, that’s your claim.”

See my comments and reference provided. If only “some” people are involved, your compatriot called our entire nation a s$#thole and called all of us rats. Tell me who is a racist here. I got into the argument only at this point.

“The reason some young Indian men don’t fit in here is often because they are using our society for financial benefits and don’t respect our values.”

Values is a very broad and vague term. To me this looks more like xenophobia than values. It is the facade people use to show their anger at being crowded out by newcomers.

Posted by KPSingh01 | Report as abusive

Austell:”The reason some young Indian men don’t fit in here is often because they are using our society for financial benefits and don’t respect our values”.

This is a strange argument, there is obviously a disconnect between Australians and Australian government then. The values as kp said is very vague term and the reason Australian Government allows Indians is because they work hard,save for the rainy day and for the kids,maintain strong familiy ties (which in fact limits crime by adolescents),enterprising nature,seriousness in education and more importantly abide by more broader australian law.
Don’t they fear bringing in more Arabs is a serious impediment to their society than Indians or chinese?
I have mentioned these points before but neither Austell nor brian seems to mind these good qualities as more important rather they think Indians ripping-off few dollars or brining banned items (it is exactly achaar or pickle that Indians generally have while eating) is more dangerous and undermines Australias ultra super duper excellent values. ;-)

Posted by sensiblepatriot | Report as abusive

Rex:”German Philosopher said that morality requires the belief in the existance of God, freedom and immortality, because without their existance there can be no morality. All western constitutions are based on the values outlined in scriptures”.

Wrong! For morality you do not need to believe in God. Nordic countries (norway and sweden) are best in terms of transperancy,HDI and least corrupted but only a minor percentage are actually declared theists.

1.All western constitutions are not based on scriptures but the belief in seperation of church and state.

2.Most Western consituitions are inspired by two events the American Independence and French Revolution.

American Independence which declared liberty, freedom, fraternity and ensuring no single person enjoys all the powers(devolution of powers).
French Revolution, in just a small timeline showed the societal and cultural revolution beginning with church and feudal dominance to jacobins chaos. Basically the world identified the better structure from french revolution by seperating church with state, and each country took a phase in french revolution as their binding ideology. Some took welfare state and some took more capitalistic route.
Your comments on Hinduism were vague and do not account anything for me to comment here. Suffice it to say Muslims(some groups among them) are identified by state governments as OBC’s (socially Backward castes) along with OBC Hindus and constitution permits it. Come out of exclusivist religious narratives on this.

Rex:”but the idea that other countries are under obligation to accept Indians as immigrants unconditionaly or to provide natural resources for Indian growing economy then the Indian lot on this forum atleast is very unrealistic to say the least”.

Not its not unrealistic but its realism driven by economic factors. I am surprised you wont appreciate it.

Rex:”I am sure that Indian Govt. would not consider it friendly if Australian Govt were to describe Indian army suppression in Kashmir as a serious violation of human rights?”
The Australian government wont describe about kashmir just as they wont describe about tibet. For all your selective ramblings, the underlying factor is economics.
The economic entaglement paves the road for cultural assimilation and incidentally thats what pakistan fears in having out-and-out trade with india.

Posted by sensiblepatriot | Report as abusive

sensiblepatriot,

You did a good job listing out a defence of India.

However, in arguments like this, the other side is unlikely to go, “Oh, now I see where I was wrong. I understand your position now. Sorry.”

I’m afraid your painstaking and lengthy attempt at explanation and/or rebuttal is as fruitless as Brian-decree and Austell “defending Australia’s honour”. That didn’t have too much success either. As strategies to get somewhere in a discussion, it is pointless to praise or justify yourself. The other side isn’t listening.

Either say nice things about the *other* country and then someone *may* reciprocate or just stop supplying oxygen to a pointless argument. My country is better, yours is &&@)!^, I only tried to say this, you said something offensive, etc., etc. You should know by now that we don’t progress an inch with arguments like this, however well-crafted.

And talking about denying oxygen to pointless arguments, you once again fell into the trap of replying to Rex!

Either break the ice, or stop arguing. That’s my two cents.

Regards,
Ganesh Prasad

Posted by prasadgc | Report as abusive

Cozy and warm Australia is going to feel the heat. If they thought we Indians are the worst rats, let them deal with the unrelenting and inflexible Jihad front. This doesn’t stop once it starts. They will know what we have been dealing with for such a long time:

http://www.smh.com.au/national/muslims-o bligated-to-resist-democracy-say-radical s-20110703-1gxfw.html

Posted by KPSingh01 | Report as abusive

kpsingh,

“See my comments and reference provided. If only “some” people are involved, your compatriot called our entire nation a s$#thole and called all of us rats. Tell me who is a racist here. I got into the argument only at this point.”

If this is what your argument is based on then provide a quote of when you were called rats.

Your exaduration is ridiculous and now your just making things up…

Those 5 big cities you listed contain just over half of Australia’s population (13million) and together cover an area that is 4.5% of Australia. Get your facts straight, and speaking of arrogance are you trying to tell me something I don’t know about my country??

Did you read it on wikipedia??

On that note, I agree, western culture is superior. This is demonstrated by it’s phenomenal success. I have said this previously and will say it again. Now the reason I’m saying this is not out of arrogance, it’s out of DEFENSE.

And honestly, in this way, it is a very easy thing to defend. That’s why your country is dropping many of it’s traditions and embracing western culture on a much larger scale today.

You should stop calling yourself rats, it’s quite disturbing, have some dignity.

‘sensible’patriot, that is just a fanatical perspective on the argument. Neither Austel or myself believe that, but if you want to reinvent reality I couldn’t stop you if I tried, so I won’t.

Prassadgc,
I’m not listening because it’s not relevant. In my opinion there is no dispute. The only reason I am referencing India or offering a perspective on it is to show the double standards these people have in attacking my countrymen.
They have no right because their own problems are greater than mine. And because their information is innaccurate.

prassadgc, I’m not here to join in the daily beard and ego stroking of this ancient group of Indian bloggers. Nothing sounds more boreing and spiritually corrupting to me.

I’m here to defend Australians against their racist comments.

Pride is a fantastic thing, and yes we have a lot of it!

So keep your cheap, cowardly coments to yourselves guys.

Posted by brian-decree | Report as abusive

Parts of India and SOME percentage of Indians make it appear ##%%hole to outsiders.

And likewise, SOME percentage of Australians make Australia appear most racist country out of all industrialized “first-world” countries.

Here is a recent survey on racism in Australia (involving people who have FIRST-HAND experience of this issue in Australia)

http://www.news.com.au/national/were-a-l and-of-racists-survey-shows/story-e6frfk vr-1226010436251

People here accept BOTH facts, everyone can move on! Simple as that.

PS: People have the problem of focusing only on the black spots on a full moon while totally failing to appreciate the bright shining moonlight. BTW, we’ve seen how much ice people have broken with Mr. … you-know-who. ;)

Posted by Seth09 | Report as abusive

I’ll just summarize the finding of that survey:

“Among the 12,512 people surveyed Australia-wide, 48.6 per cent were negative towards Muslims, Asians (23.8), indigenous Australians (27.9), Jews (23.3) and black Africans (27).”

Read more: http://www.news.com.au/national/were-a-l and-of-racists-survey-shows/story-e6frfk vr-1226010436251#ixzz1R6cyX7f2

PS: No Twoface even dare pull any BS over the survey, its done using “superior western statistical methods”!

Posted by Seth09 | Report as abusive

Crocodile Dundee: “keep your cheap, cowardly coments to yourselves guys”

Why don’t you go chase a rabbit in the outback or something? Your intellectual ability is very telling. You have spent too much time with Kangaroos and crocs. Just stay there and enjoy the desert sun. Your mind is warped with too much isolationism. Keep your pride and shove it. No one cares. You really cannot win this ego edged war here. No one is going to sing praises of your holy land. So keep your pride and stuff it as much as you want. None of us really care. If you don’t like Indians coming to your country, take a rifle and go shoot them at the airport. Wear a white hood with holes for your eyes and nose. That way you will be a Klan hero as well. Goodbye!

Posted by KPSingh01 | Report as abusive

Those who claim Australia is a racist free paradise might want to ponder about this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IPYnFRXwK cA&feature=related

Posted by KPSingh01 | Report as abusive

@Mr patriot
I do not want to be rude, but your point 1 and 2 are pure misconceptions. Western Govts are secular but not their constitutions. Indians were forbidden to stop sending women to death with their husband by the muslim invaders, Islam also stopped the barbaric practices in the middle east and parts of Europe, christian missioneries went across the world including Africa to bring the gospels to the barbarian societies. No western Govt. constitution is secular, they reflect the values imbedded in the Ibrahimic religion. These are basics together with what the Greeks and other European philosophers added to what we regard as values. Though our knowledge begins with experience it does not follow that it arises out of experience. Immanuel Kant in his Critique of Pure Reason, he assertsthat ordering sense-impression into intelligible unities, which,while in themselves cannot be proven we are led to conclude through “pure reason” that intelligible unities such as God, freedom and immortality , do exist, and the formation of such intelligible unities are practical necessities for one’s life. The french revoluion and the American story were good experiences, no more. I understand that Indian Constitution was developed somewhat from the French constitution.

In my view you were the wrong person to get caught in the mud throwing discussion, simply becase you inadvertently quoted your cousin opinions about Australia. Your fellow compatriots, however, sitting in Canada and the USA are obsessed with materialism and therefore neither understood or appreciate the western values which is imbedded in the western culture. Their anger with Australian way of thinking and their life style is distasteful and disgraceful to say the least. My tip for such people is go back to the societies where
they feel at home or integrate, not assimilate by any means but without integration they are unlike to appreciate the benefits they could acquire.

The use of pure logic in your arguments has no logic since most realities do not represent any logic. I fully agree that the economic reality rquires of every Govt. to follow a rational poliy, but are they going to follow what you predict is not guaranteed. Can you offer a logical rationale why America in pursuing a war in Iraq and Afghanstan has turned from being a super power to now a world power and a complete bankrupt treasury. It wento Afghanistan to remove the taliban Govt. and after ten years is desperately trying to bring back the taliban Govt. Can you follow this logic?

Rex Minor

Posted by pakistan | Report as abusive

Can we put to bed these arguments?

From where I stand:
-The Aussies have their pride hurt and are lashing out.
-DaraIndia and Prasadgc are the most reasonable posters in the lot.
-kpsingh is well, still reminiscing about the days before the Berlin Wall came down!

You all have different viewpoints and to the extent that any of you really harbour racist sentiments, I suspect none of it is so strong that it could be overcome by a few beers in a bar someday.

When it comes to racism we should really be more concerned about the kind of racists who actually support and propound policies that get people killed. An Aussie being pissed off that Indian cabbie overcharged him is small potatoes compared to say somebody who thinks a certain ethnic group has an inviolable right to dominate any other ethnic group in its vicinity. You all know who I am talking about.

He’s gone on to suggest that Muslims, Jews, Blacks and Asians are communities full of criminals. And then gone on to suggest that for most Indians, Arabs and Jews materialism guides their behaviour. I seem to recall something in my high school history textbooks about the Nazis having similar ideas about Jews. I don’t know about the Aussies, but to me that’s textbook racism and such views, if expressed here in Canada, would have resulted in a severe reprimand in any academic institution or the workplace. Not to mention the outright social rejection for harbouring such views. Yet, the Indians keep attacking the Australians, who seem more concerned about the odd Indian student not fitting in or the cabbie or clerk overcharging him. I’m fairly sure, most Aussies don’t support this individuals take on racism (which he considers wholly justifiable apparently…at least he’s confident enough that such out and out racism won’t get him expelled from these parts).

If you’re going to shoot somebody, aim the weapon at the right person.

Posted by kEiThZ | Report as abusive

And keith,

Talking about the guy who can’t stop talking of Indians, Jews and everyone else being the pits of humanity as compared to followers of his beliefs. But he surely takes the cake when he says Muslims stopped Indians from the inhuman practice of Sutee. Bet he never heard of a Raja Ram Mohan Roy – his misfortune. he never heard of Bangladesh massacres too by residents of the Land of the Pure!

Wise man or ostrich? I know not.

But I bet also he never saw the video of his much beloved, progressive and enlightened Taliban shooting a poor Afghan woman in the head in the middle of a foot ball field in full public view – just a few years ago. Now thats an enlightened society as opposed to the barbaric!

Posted by DaraIndia | Report as abusive

KeithZ: “Can we put to bed these arguments?”

Agreed. I think you triggered this war of words inadvertently and it has snowballed out of control.

However, this is a great example of how emotions can be used as a weapon to divide people. I am not referring to you. You can see that in the sub-continent and elsewhere, the colonial empires played people off each other this way by inserting something that touched raw nerves. The divide of India and Pakistan using a Muslim cause is an example. And it has led to two nuclear armed nations ready to go at each other with everything they have got.

Every individual, every group of people and every nation has a set of raw nerves. Those who can manipulate others know how to touch them and when. One can take a bunch of Sri Lankans and have them choke each others’ throat by triggering the Tamil versus Sinhalese issue. I am sure that is already going on in some other forum.

Heated arguments usually lead to nowhere. But sometimes one gets enough insight of the other side. I know wonderful Australians from my grad school days. I have been to Australia.

A lot of times one finds himself in the wrong place at the wrong time. And that experience entirely influences his perception of the world around him. And he can be manipulated by groups that can play on his emotions. It is very difficult to control those emotions and see beyond.

Australians may be proud. But they need to learn to respect others. It is not the cabbie that is making them violent. There is something deep seated that is being suppressed by world norms and requirements and it finds ways to vent itself on petty issues like getting disgusted with a cabbie who over charges. Racism today is abhorred and if people carry it in their hearts because they can no longer exercise it freely, they will vent it in many other ways. It will change its shape into xenophobia and will take subtle forms. Only those being affected by it will sense it. People will use any method that is legally possible to vent their suppressed feelings. If it is bottled up for too long, it is bound to explode at some point. This is what we Indians sense about Australians. It is very difficult to quantify it. It is very difficult to prove. But one can sense it in ways it is being vented. The US probably was like this in the 1950s and 60s. Today it is transformed well. Yet there are pockets where it still exists and can coalesce into something large. Right now Americans do not like Hispanics proliferating and multiplying. They have their own issue and states like Arizona have made their own immigration laws.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Jnfg9i4I sE

Small issues can trigger major violence or even revolutions. That is how the Arab Spring started. It started in Tunisia when a small individual decided to resist and fight for justice. It just cascaded and turned into a deluge that has swept across most of the Arab world. This means that the people there have been holding it all these years. All it took was a tiny pop and it simply burst. The reason why I watch emotional sentiments expressed by many is because it is all the result of suppressing and holding inner feelings of prejudice, revenge, injustice etc over generations. Small incidents can sometimes trigger them and things can go out of control from there. You saw a mini-brawl right here when you made an innocent mention that led to unintended consequences.

People are nice and polite in general. But they are holding a lot of emotional baggage inside. This episode of Indians versus Australians in a neutral ground (forum for Pakistani issues), triggered by a Canadian with no ulterior intentions is a classic example. I do not know how many made this observation while engaging in the brawl.

Talking about Berlin wall, I think the cold war was better than the wars we are seeing today. It was somehow in control and struck a balance. The current war, combined with economic decline and global frustration is entirely out of control. None of us know where this is going to lead to. These kinds of wars never end. They keep fuming and burst into flames when opportune times arise. I am sure there are many still preserving the memories of the crusade. With religion becoming a weapon, one never knows, the world might see yet another crusade that can be utterly disastrous.

The world is not perfect. But hopefully we will make more progress through further interactions and improving our awareness of others’ sentiments.

Posted by KPSingh01 | Report as abusive

Coming to your main point Keith about aiming at the right person – the enlightened woman emancipator. You have a point, but there’s only so much one can discuss with a blank wall.

The aiming is not at fault. We don’t press the trigger – just the ignore button!

Posted by DaraIndia | Report as abusive

I agree with Keith. It’s time to put this futile argument to bed. It’s doing nothing more than provide waste crumbs for the one rodent in here (we all know who), who feeds on such nuisance value.

Posted by Mortal1 | Report as abusive

Not exactly an eye-opener but something to get back on topic:

http://nyti.ms/kyvPg6

Posted by Mortal1 | Report as abusive

The spat reminded me of this very popular youtube channel that I found funny and used to watch regularly. http://www.youtube.com/user/communitycha nnel#p/search/1/ivkw27k9J0c

I also recently found this Hindi YT channel(ChauthiDuniya) that I believe might be of interest to somebody here: http://www.youtube.com/chauthiduniya#p/u  /9/UF0VXN8a3nE

Posted by Seth09 | Report as abusive

[...] talks with the Taliban. But is it already too late to reach a peaceful settlement to the war? Global News Journal Tags: Afghanistan, mirage, Taliban, [...]

[...] [iv] Mira MacDonald, “Taliban talks: the new mirage in Afghanistan,” Reuters, 18 June 2011. http://blogs.reuters.com/pakistan/2011/0 6/18/taliban-talks-the-new-mirage-in-afg hanistan/. [...]