Winning the battle, losing the war; the US and Pakistan

November 29, 2011

When former foreign minister Shah Mehmood Qureshi said this weekend that Pakistan’s nuclear weapons are not safe under President Asif Ali Zardari, he almost certainly did not mean that the nuclear arsenal is not secure. The nuclear weapons have little to do with the civilian government; they are guarded ferociously by the Pakistan Army both against terrorist attacks and any foreign or U.S. attempt to seize them, and, as a matter of pride for Pakistanis chafing at any American suggestions otherwise,  safeguarded to international standards.

Rather it was a rhetorical device to attack the government at a rally where Qureshi announced he was joining the Pakistan Tehreek-e-Insaf (PTI) , the party of former cricket star Imran Khan, a rising force in Pakistani politics.  Qureshi’s assertion tapped into growing anti-Americanism, and a populist view that the  civilian government led by the Pakistan People’s Party, to which he once belonged, had somehow sold the country’s honour – in this case symbolised by nuclear weapons – in return for American aid.  (Pakistan first agreed its uneasy alliance with the United States under former military ruler Pervez Musharraf.)

Yet it is a measure of how distorted and narrow political discourse has become within Pakistan that Qureshi might use the safety of nuclear weapons to attack the government. That political discourse, difficult even at the best of times, is likely to become even narrower in the fury which has followed the NATO airstrikes which killed 24 Pakistani soldiers on the border with Afghanistan on Saturday. 

The attack, which Pakistan says was unprovoked and NATO described as a “tragic, unintended incident”, has outraged Pakistanis who have already endured thousands of casualties in a war they believe was forced on them by the United States.

Underneath the confusion about the aims and course of the Afghan war, lies a deep sense of hurt that Pakistani lives are somehow less valued than American lives, and a painful loss of pride over the country’s inability to defend its territory from attacks by a foreign, and apparently hostile, power – whether from airstrikes, drones, or even the May raid by U.S. forces who killed Osama bin Laden.

The result is a society which is being shaped by the Afghan war in ways which neither Pakistan’s neighbours, nor western powers, would choose.  The airstrikes, coming soon after the forced resignation of Pakistan’s ambassador to Washington Husain Haqqani for allegedly seeking American help to curb the power of the military, have added fresh oxygen to a combustible mix of anti-Americanism and religious nationalism enveloping Pakistan.  Haqqani denies the allegation, but the so-called “Memogate” scandal has badly weakened the civilian government, while the airstrikes have rallied the country behind the army.

In such an environment, there is little room for a discourse that might suggest Pakistanis should also be outraged at the deaths of civilians blown up by suicide bombers sent by the Tehrik-e-Taliban Pakistan (TTP), and therefore discuss ways to turn decisively against Islamist militants. Nor is there space for a realistic political debate on how Pakistan should manage its foreign relations that goes beyond a hatred of America and an illusory faith in China’s readiness to ride to the rescue

Before the latest crisis, the government  had been pushing through legislative reforms to help democracy take root in Pakistan. It is difficult to see these making much more progress now as the government fights for survival. The tedious mechanics of documenting the economy, as a first step towards increasing the tax base and raising revenues, dropped off the political agenda long ago.

Expectations that the civilian government could become the first in Pakistan’s history to complete its term and be replaced by another democratically elected government are being lowered by the day as the politicians descend into the kind of internecine feuds typical of the 1990s. That decade ended in Musharraf’s military coup in 1999. 

The next casualty of the rising tide of nationalism could well be Pakistan’s warming ties with India – one of the few relationships in the region that until now had been going well.   The civilian government had eased itself into the driving seat in pushing for improved trade relations with India, though no one would suggest that it made the progress it did without the approval of the Pakistan Army. It has a particular interest in better ties with India - the army has drawn its power from a perceived need to defend the country against an Indian threat, contributing to Pakistan’s civilian-military imbalance. 

So when Indian Prime Minister Manmohan Singh and his Pakistani counterpart Yusuf Raza Gilani joined each other in early April to watch the Pakistan-India cricket semi-final in the town of Mohali,  they discussed a Pakistani appeal that India drop its opposition to an EU duty waiver on Pakistani textiles exports.  By the end of April, it was becoming clear that improved trade ties could be a game-changer.  (Pakistan had earlier resisted improving trade without first settling the Kashmir dispute.)  By early November, New Delhi agreed to the EU duty waiver and, more significantly, Pakistan granted Most Favoured Nation (MFN) status to India.

That mood has changed.  Reports have begun to surface in the Pakistani media that the army has reservations about granting MFN status to India. The Jamaat-ud-Dawa (JuD), the humanitarian wing of the banned Lashkar-e-Taiba militant group,  and an organisation close to the military,  has launched protests against granting India MFN status, saying that the Kashmir dispute must be settled first. 

After the NATO airstrikes, a JuD protest to mourn the Pakistani soldiers killed turned quickly into a protest against improved trade ties with India. While the government may yet be able to push ahead with its India agenda – albeit on a very tight military leash – the signs are not looking good.

Progress in relations with India had become – quite unexpectedly – one of the few release valves left to ease off the pressures building up within Pakistan.  On its western border, the United States and its allies are pushing ahead with an agenda in Afghanistan which has already integrated the possibility there will be no early peace settlement with Afghan insurgents - an idea long sought by Pakistan.   And while Pakistan won some initial sympathy from foreign governments over the NATO airstrikes, its decision to boycott next week’s international conference on Afghanistan in Bonn, will - at least symbolically – highlight its isolation. It is beginning to look like a country turning in on itself in dangerous ways.

We have always known there was a risk that Pakistan could become to Afghanistan what Cambodia was to Vietnam - a country horribly destabilised by an American war spilling across its borders.  We are not there yet. Perhaps those who say all will be well when the United States leaves the region will prove right – American influence for decades has tended to be toxic to Pakistan.

 But pay attention to the domestic political discourse.  There  is no point in winning the battle in Afghanistan and losing the war in Pakistan.

Comments

Yes, Pakistan too is sometimes making news here and there because it is a nation of 180 million Muslims and a nuclear power

–Umair

Just a thought, Why do you have to write “Nuclear Power” every time you mention Pakistan ?

May be its time to change your country’s name to “Nuclearstan” easy to write and remember.

Posted by punjabiyar | Report as abusive
 

Umair: ” If everyone should mind their own business, do not poke their nose in anyone else’s affairs a lot of problems in the worlds get sorted out themselves automatically.”

Great advice. Hope your countrymen could have followed that right from the beginning. It is always easy to tell others what to do. But it does help sometimes if you guys follow the principle yourselves.

“Take for example Afghanistan, western projecting of shoving diplomacy down the throats of ethnic tribal people living by the law of gun. It never worked, it never will, better yet cut and run, face save.”

It could have been worse. Unfortunately the tribals your country is protecting lucked out. The US had an idiot for President and his interest was in Iraq right from the start. He never paid much attention to Af-Pak. After an initial fire burst, he sent his troops into Iraq and forgot about Afghanistan. Imagine someone like Obama in power when 9/11 happened. Just as soon as he took power Obama understood where the actual problem lied and who the real villain is. If he had been in power in 2001 instead of the clown, Pakistan would have borne the brunt of the American onslaught right then. Iraq misadventure would never have happened and the entire mission would have focused on Af-Pak. Obama would have made the right calls and probably by now a solution would have been found. American indifference in the region after driving out the Taliban between 2003 and 2009 allowed Pakistan to help the Taliban and other militant groups to recuperate, regroup and rearm themselves. The clown had left the US economy in shambles when Obama was handed power. The tribals you are priding about would have done nothing if the US had done the right thing from the start. Obama simply intensified the operation and it bore results. Osama was found living comfortably under the protection of Pakistani military and was killed swiftly. Drones have killed of most militants and they have been busy running and hiding rather than confront the US. Without the help of Pakistani military, these militants would have been laid to rest long ago.
We all know what is going on, contrary to what you guys are trying to project.

“Infact herin lies the solution, in Bonn conference Pakistan was absent, and everyone acknowledged without Pakistan’s help, there is no solution to Afhhanistan. Pakistan, my friend, is part of solution NOT problem as you mentioned. ”

Pakistan is not part of the solution. If it were the case, peace would have been found long ago in Afghanistan. Pakistan is hindering the efforts to find a solution. That does not make it a part of the solution. Being a part and being a road block are two different things. The US is probably working on a solution that bypasses the hindrance or getting over it by force.

Posted by KPSingh01 | Report as abusive
 

Umair: “Problem is, for the generation born after 1971, unwilling to be scared into submission, we Pakistanis only know we never loose, we do what we decide to do with a lot of passion.”

Pakistani soldiers surrendered to the Taliban led by Baitullah Mehsud. Pakistan made a deal with him – you don’t piss on us and we won’t piss on you agreement. And he promptly violated that agreement. Bombs blew up everywhere inside Pakistan. Your mighty and valorous military stood there shivering in its pants and it was the American drone that got him. Your military general, commander in thief Pervert Riffraff surrendered to the Americans in 2001 when Richard Armitage gave him a choice – “are you with us or against us?” If it was such a great generation that knew it never loses, why did Pakistan shamelessly switch sides and exposed the Taliban to bear the brunt of American onslaught? Why did Musharraf make a deal to airlift Pakistani army personnel and many non-state actors out of Kunduz? You guys decide nothing. Your army decides what to do – mostly saluting to the Americans for alms. That has been the case until now.

“Your business acumen, just like ur geopolitical analysis is crap as it is.”

I would not feel hurt to see the blind claiming the moon never existed. The last thing I need is a certification from anyone about my business acumen or geo-political knowledge. I rely on my reading for such purposes and I have read quite a lot over the years. I do not go by street propaganda much. I like to make my own judgements based on what I read and watch.

“I think if there is money to be made, everyone will come to the party. And sanctions???”

It depends upon if the money is being made through honest business or through robbery. No one would want to do business with bandits.

“Years of sanctions did not do anything to Iran, declaring terrorist state?”

Iran is sitting on top of vast reserves of oil. Iranians have to do nothing. Money pours down from the sky for its oil. Sanctions would not hurt such countries that are sitting on top of natural resources. I agree that Iran has been wrongly declared as a terrorist state. It should have been Pakistan and I am sure you will agree with me on this.

“by those who are biggest perpetrators of war crimes, extraordinary rendition programs operating black sites across the world and gaining confession through most inhumane torture. Terrorists declaring others as terrorists???? ”

Why is the pot calling the kettle black?

“what a joke. Even today many chinese firms operate in Pakistan, the US has lost much of its clout.”

The US probably never had much business investment inside Pakistan. Most of their deals have been military oriented. We know China’s “business” in Pakistan.

“It is challenged at many fronts, it can no more push around Pakistan.”

We will see as time goes by.

“Ten years back it might have been different, decades of pointless wars has weakened it internally. Now is the time, if better sense prevail still there is time to fix things for them.”

The main strength of the US is not money. It has a very deep fundamental infrastructure that will not let it collapse under any circumstances. It has the best environment in the world for creativity. It still has the potential to create more Apple, Google, Microsoft, Facebook, Twitter, Intel and so on that have helped reshape the world. It is because of Facebook and Twitter that revolutions are going on around the Middle East and elsewhere. The US still has the potential to create new markets. It is not going to disappear into thin air. This is the real strength of the US. Money gets made through this creative enterprise. You will have to see it to believe it. They have undergone economic ups and downs more than once in their history. They have faced two world wars and a cold war following that. Yet they have dominated the world by focusing on creative enterprise. Only the US can create Walmarts, Fedex, Dell, HP, Alcoa, Exxon and other massive multinationals. While its military is engaged in wars around the world, its business enterprise is continuously generating new avenues. And this potential will last a long time. They still have plenty of natural resources. Their power hold over the world might diminish. But they are going to be around with their global influence as strong as before. There is no alternative to American style of enterprise and leadership in the world right now.

“u till me the figures? what is the external debt of the US? the balance of payments? exports? GDP? BRIC factor? Rising China? unemployment rate? avg. mortgage payments??? Talking of a sinking ship threatning others. huh”

See above. These kinds of ups and downs are cyclical and what goes down usually comes up. The US is a proper nation built on extremely strong fundamental foundations. It is not going to disappear anytime. You might wish for it because your country is now at the receiving end. But you are going to be disappointed. None of the other emerging powers have such strong foundations. China’s economy is reliant on external business. If the business opportunities diminish, China will implode. They are sitting on a huge bubble themselves.

No matter how much you might thump your chest, the reality is going in the opposite direction. But you are very much entitled to be proud of your nation. We are mere spectators in the latest kabaddi match between the US and Pakistan.

Posted by KPSingh01 | Report as abusive
 

@Umair
The Americans and the rag tag european military have been decisively defeated and are on the run. Their main concern is to bring out the technicaly advanced and highly lethal equipment out of Afghanistan; Pakistan leaders Messrs Gillani and certain corps commanders sudden reaction has definitely surprised them but their hope is that Messrs Zardari and Kyani, the loyal allies would relax and let them retrieve the lethal stuff before it falls into Iranian, chinese or the Russians hands. The stakes are very high; rightly or wrong but foolishly, the american operations in the Pashtoon land were fully supported by Pakistan military firstly by mr Musharaf and later by Gen Kyan. The program was on track, but then the Americans administration themselves messed it up by numerous actions in Pakistan first the Abbotabad adventure and now in the border area, while the American military based on false CIA info put out diabolic info about Pakistan military which could not be denied. The fact that ISI has imbedded their people in certain Taliban forces is normal for an intelligence unit and is nothing new and the Americans were informed about it.
The ball is with Americans and it would appear that Pakistan might open the Karachi-Khyber highway once an official apology from the USA Govt. is forthcoming and the taliban forces allow the safe passage for the precious cargo.
There is a long way to 2014 deadline, which the Americans have announced.

Rex Minor

Posted by pakistan | Report as abusive
 

Here is a link that talks about how Taliban is being weakened in Afghanistan. The reason why US does not want to relax its grip is because it is seeing progress. Had they employed this method right from the beginning, by now Taliban and its sponsors would have been history.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/dec  /08/us-wants-taliban-even-nastier

All those who are chest thumping about American “defeat” might be interested in seeing the reality for themselves. Taliban is being broken down slowly.
Here are some highlights:

UN figures show the vast majority of civilian casualties are due to Taliban operations. Whether or not there is a deliberate effort to radicalise the Taliban, it appears to be an unavoidable side effect of trying to crush it militarily. And that is exactly what the US has been trying to do in the last two years.

The US-led decimation of the Taliban’s mid-level leadership begins in top-secret intelligence hubs crammed with analysts scrutinising vast amounts of raw information gleaned from Afghan spies, interrogations and eavesdropping into mobile phone networks. After sifting through the data, a targeting “packet” is created and handed over to special forces teams who are sent out on up to six “kill or capture” missions every single night. Dozing in their traditional mud compounds in distant villages all over rural Afghanistan, the targets have no clue they are in the crosshairs of one of the most advanced intelligence and military machines the world has ever seen until they hear helicopters racing over the horizon.

Nagl says all this amounts to a revolution in the way war is fought. “In the history of counterinsurgency, we have never been this good at taking insurgents off the battlefield,” he says.

And, it is working, say Nato’s data crunchers, who pore over information in a windowless office in Kabul. They claim there are significant signs that the insurgency has weakened in the past year, including the loss of areas in Helmand and Kandahar provinces, where the Taliban used to operate unmolested. Radio intercepts and other sources of intelligence suggest the Taliban is reeling: commanders struggle to resupply its men in the field, while some fighters apparently refuse promotions or even to step foot in Afghanistan, preferring the safety of Pakistan. There are also signs that the average age of Taliban commanders has dropped as the movement struggles to replace those who are killed or captured, leading to a new generation of less experienced and less capable insurgents taking the lead.

The Nato intelligence official, drawing from a thick pile of graphs and bar charts, points to some encouraging signs: 2011 has seen record numbers of tip-offs from locals revealing where caches of weapons and IEDs (improvised explosive devices) are hidden. There has also been brisk interest in signing up to the Afghan Local Police scheme, a US special forces-mentored programme that recruits villagers to defend their own communities.

Posted by KPSingh01 | Report as abusive
 

The Super Power will complete its exit(heads up) from Iraq by december 31st; the troops to be with their families at xmass. The USA has also asked Iran for the return of the drone, confirms Mr Obama.

In the meantime Pakistan military has taken cntrol of the Shamsi air base after expelling the CIA outfit due to default on rental payments and its misuse for military missions.

Since then no drones or helicopters missions have been reorted in the Pashtun territory. A pause or a xmass break to avoid American casualties during xmass period. Looks like without the assistance of its ally Pakistan the USA military is at stand still.

Rex Minor

Posted by pakistan | Report as abusive
 

Here is a nice article in the NY Times:

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/12/18/magazi ne/bill-keller-pakistan.html?_r=1&hp

Posted by KPSingh01 | Report as abusive
 

@Myra

get this guy off this blog; he is posting NYtimes, and Washington Post columnist details without their permission. though covered earlier in several comments. The guy has gone loco. Thanks.

Rex Minor

Posted by pakistan | Report as abusive
 

This will be interesting to many:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_YFbnpyic eY

Posted by KPSingh01 | Report as abusive
 

KP,

I wonder why you think the Bill Keller article is nice. As an apologist for Pakistan, his attempt is pretty weak and transparent. There was no mention of the Bengali genocide, the Kunduz airlift or the Mumbai attacks, so one wonders how even-handed his analysis could be.

Anyway, here’s my rejoinder to that badly-conceived attempt at character-resurrection: http://bit.ly/vt7oHl

Regards,
Ganesh Prasad

Posted by prasadgc | Report as abusive
 

How far the double game of Pakistan is going to lead the world to?
After the very recent joint Pakistan and Chinese military exercises in the heartland of Punjab, and for the first time in the world simulating a nuclear conflict, one can only wonder, speculate and guess? One thing is very sure China is going to confront the USA in 2012 in the economic field and is very likely to demand that either the USA reduce their spending level in line with their National income or China would be compelled to unload the US bonds in the open market. Bad times in 2012 for Mr Obama, under whose watch more lives were lost in Afghanistan than previously. Without the cooperation of the Pakistan military even their drones program is now in jeapordy. The USA cannot trust Indian leaders since they are once again getting closer to Russia, their old ally.

Rex Minor

Posted by pakistan | Report as abusive
 

Ganesh: “I wonder why you think the Bill Keller article is nice.”

The word “nice” was expected to be satirical. I should have highlighted it.

The Youtube link I posted on BBC’s coverage on Pakistan’s duplicity is the real thing. These guys knew all along that they were being deceived. Yet they put up with it to the point of break down. It had to come to this end sometime or another.

Posted by KPSingh01 | Report as abusive
 

How far the double game of Pakistan is going to lead the world to?
After the very recent joint Pakistan and Chinese military exercises in the heartland of Punjab, and for the first time in the world simulating a nuclear conflict, one can only wonder, speculate and guess? One thing is very sure China is going to confront the USA in 2012 in the economic field and is very likely to demand that either the USA reduce their spending level in line with their National income or China would be compelled to unload the US bonds in the open market. Bad times in 2012 for Mr Obama, under whose watch more lives were lost in Afghanistan than previously. Without the cooperation of the Pakistan military even their drones program is now in jeapordy. The USA cannot trust Indian leaders since they are once again getting closer to Russia, their old ally.
Rex Minor

Posted by pakistan | Report as abusive
 

Ganesh: “Anyway, here’s my rejoinder to that badly-conceived attempt at character-resurrection: http://bit.ly/vt7oHl”

Thanks for that link. It was a very well written rebuttal.
See the series of videos on Najm Sethi from Pakistan. There are sensible and rational voices inside Pakistan. Hope they get their voices heard.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=exAlTqrfR a4

The current generation of Pakistanis must see these videos and look at themselves. They will realize how much they have been misled by lies and propaganda.

Posted by KPSingh01 | Report as abusive
 

I agree with the analysis of the scenario Pakistan and U.S. is an uneasy alliance and one that should be worked out with Afghanistan on the table. This will be beneficial for all who are tangled in this mess. Indian Opinion and analysis that is actually done to death here is not really relevant to the situation. They have their own axe to grind. Also their understanding of Pushtoon culture (which was the factor not taken into account before) is bare minimum at best. So sit down and talk to people on the ground and take into account opinions of those who live with this mess day-in day-out.

Posted by MeandMine | Report as abusive
 

Rex Minor:”One thing is very sure China is going to confront the USA in 2012 in the economic field and is very likely to demand that either the USA reduce their spending level in line with their National income or China would be compelled to unload the US bonds in the open market”.

Rex, Nobody thinks China has the capacity to dump US bonds not even the chinese, I don’t know if you follow financial markets, but any new rookie who follows them knows that its the Europe (yes Europe) thats fumbling and sliding and dollar thats stable. Few weeks back, the European union kicked out the United Kingdom out of the Euro and essentially paid way for its own demise. And that is because UK forms those part of few countries which provide demand to European goods.
The chinese depend heavily on the western demand to fuel their economy. It even depends on every country that provides a little demand to their products, its financial structure is designed in such a way that its over obsession with high employement rate exacerbates the problems of overinvestment and export dependence.Its subsidy to exports (in order to appease the SOE sector dominated by inefficient Communist bosses) fundementally distorts the price signals of every investment and makes the return of investment calculation that much more difficult.
It is not exporters market anymore, but the importers and consumer’s market. There was a time when people would kill each other for Japanese electronic gadgets or German equipment or American branded produts since they weren’t made anywhere. After the Globalization has taken root, these products are made everywhere and part of the product can be made anywhere. Thats why the countries whose Internal demand is robust dominates the financial order. Most of the world believes its ill timed and fallacious argument to compare India and China but for the population. Yes it is and in terms of development model China follows the “Far East” development model where Authoritarian governments invest hugely in human development and exports to reach economic standards of the West, And then they would unshackle the political authority from few individuals by democratizing or devolving powers to larger populace and humungous institutions.This happenend in case of South Korea, Japan (to an extent when single party monopoly was broken only recently), malaysia and other countries.
The problem with this kind of growth is that it thoroughly depends on exports and investment for growth. The Japanese experience, which once thought to be overtaking US economy only to taper off and finds itself in low growth future. The japanese citiezens were very thrifty and wouldn’t spend much. It took 2 decades (from 1989) and a declining population growth to adjust to new economic model where it now consumes most of what it makes.

Sure Chinese look down upon Indians because of our perceived failure to measure up to the chinese in terms of Health Indicators. But well informed Indians wouldn’t worry because inspite of Higher GDP, internal consumption only forms 33% of the GDP hence the urge to continue this export exhuberance and embarking on this mindless investment spree in china.
In India 2/3rd of GDP comes from consumption and though China is 3 times(or 300%) the size of Indian economy its internal consumption is just 50% more of what India consumes. Communist countries are good at glamourizing their economic successes. Remember when Soviet boasted supreme economy and their big dams (most of the power unutilized), large grains (most of it wasted) and its electronic goods (when nobody bought). They do by keeping some cities clean (I appreciate them for that) and allowing visitors to only these cities while its slave labour hoarded away into ramshackle labour dormitories. India doesn’t do all these and thats why it doesn’t look sexy!!!
Wonder why if Chinese is such a superpower it has to depend on countries like India and Indonesia for exports which are fraction of its size (the exports which are lower end of technological heirarchy).

India being a colony of the British borrows heavily its political and economic structres (and Pakistan too to ane extent) and so development in human resources and creation of viable and independent institutions for sustaining a peaceful, prosperous and a political structure with choices go hand in hand, unlike the chinese which are bereft of them. So Indian development both (Pakistan’s too inspite of its fault lines)at sociological and political level moves parallelly. While the First phase of political structures (Democractic governance,free press, Election Commission) were created along with economic ones (socialist institutions like large public sector units for steel, medicines,Hospitals,primary schools and basic research institutions like IIT), the second economic reform (in 1991) was not complemented with political reform (reform of bureaucracy, anti-corruption laws, electoral and political reforms, judicial reforms, police reforms etc)and that is the reason why you see clamour for politcal reforms in India these days under the pretext of protests to bring Lokpal (autonomous anti corruption ombudsmen). A nation the size of India or China has to be built in fraction of centuries if not centuries itself. A simple Export driven model will help a country as small as Japan or Korea but to live of exports without internal consumption for a country the size of china is not possible without comprehensive socio-political reform.
The chinese secretly know and admit it that time is running out for a comprehensive reform but the timid ruling class only passes the buck to the next generation of leaders. “May you live in interesting times” was the ubiquitous chinese quote you always encounter and in this respect this decade is going to be a defining one at that. It just begun with Arab spring, Occupy wall street and Indian public protests over second generation political reform. Rex, “May you live in interesting times” regards to pakistan too.
Link to substantiate my claim (I already posted I guess but nevertheless)
http://mpettis.com/2011/12/how-do-we-kno w-that-china-is-overinvesting/

Posted by sensiblepatriot | Report as abusive
 

Sensiblepatriot,

That was well written. But I think you put the guy to sleep half way through reading. He is confused and has a hard time following English. You need to talk at kindergarten level for these guys.

Posted by KPSingh01 | Report as abusive
 

KP,
I will make an attempt to make my posts more readable in that sense. :-)

you said “Why did Musharraf make a deal to airlift Pakistani army personnel and many non-state actors out of Kunduz?”
I still wonder why Americans allowed the Kunduz airlift to happen right under their noses, when they were about to score a victory over taliban and remains an enigma to me. No investigation or no information retrieval pertaining to this improper act was conducted.
Most of the Taliban leaders who fled the territory using Pakistani logistics came back with trained men to fight the americans. We wouldn’t have been hearing the invincibility of the so called “pushtoons” as we know that even before it was American Weapons, Saudi Money and Pakistani logistics helped score a victory. While for the Soviets anything less than victory was a defeat while anything less than defeat was a victory for mujahideen. History repeated itself 2 decades later but I wondered why Americans haven’t learned any lessons here.

Posted by sensiblepatriot | Report as abusive
 

Sensiblepatriot:
What Rex Minor stated makes a lot more sense than your long babbling rants which makes no sense. Europe is not fumbling or sliding, EU is a unique association of its kind with 27 members states and a vast population, with different interests, aspirations and diversity bound together with a single currency. The Euro has its challenges and the European leaders are working to sort them out. And where did the EU kicked the UK out of the euro???? UK was never part of the single currency in first place. Despite the European debt crisis, there is talk of ECB acting as either a lendor of last resort, or implementation of EFSF (European Financial Stability Fund)together these measures are expected to stabilize the euro. No doubt there are challenges but together Germans as the bulwark of EU and France are expected to do whatever it takes to save the euro. As for the US, its own AAA credit rating was downgraded by the S&P which shows internal weaknesses. China surely will challenge the US in 2012 economically, for a long time the US has accused China of currency manipulation tactics. So far China has been playing nice, if it really plays around with the floating exchange rate of Yuan in the open market it can have economic impact. It is easy to find fault in China, for India itself there are big barriers to growth. A vast population still lives in poverty, lot of infrastructure is either underdeveloped or absent altogether. There is largescale corruption in government. No single economic model can be considered perfect on its own, no ideology can be termed perfect, communism was not, capitalism is not perfect.

Posted by Umairpk | Report as abusive
 

Umairpk:”What Rex Minor stated makes a lot more sense than your long babbling rants which makes no sense”.

Thats the problem isn’t it. He doesn’t substantiate his points with prudent arguments or point to some links from where he could have formed the opinion. Usually Single line statements sprouting so called “truths” cannot become “more sense” just because it automatically concurs with your opinion of prevailing perception in your country.

If mine is a long babbling rant, then most of us are guilty of doing that (including Rex at times) at some point of time, but the point is , You can only pick wrong opinions, perceptions from these long posts (which doesn’t necessarily target an individual) rather than trolling the blog with silly arguments and counter arguments which set the blog on fire for no reason. And if you do not concur with any part of my post, you are free to express here. In my defence, I did not get this kind of jeering when it suited your arguments ( like my post of Past Islamic empires or Civilizations).

Posted by sensiblepatriot | Report as abusive
 

Umaripk:”Europe is not fumbling or sliding, EU is a unique association of its kind with 27 members states and a vast population, with different interests, aspirations and diversity bound together with a single currency”.
Remember Soviet Union, it was also bounded politically closer than Europe than is now with numerous states, vast diversity and single current, yet it failed. My point is an economic bloc comprising of many states would not make it automatically successful. The underlying quasi socialist make up of all european states (with the exception of Germany) will only makes their troubles worse in trying to grow out of recession. Just like you would not tie a donkey and a horse to single cart just because they both have common owner (Europe in this case), tying Germany and Greece both of which are world’s apart with respect to composition of economy would only worsen the crisis. Greece cannot have third world industry but backed by First rate Euro currency as they would lose on competetion of exports with respect to China and India. The problem is only exacerbated by many more countries called PIIGS (portugal, Italy, Ireland, Greece and Spain) with differing levels of incompetence. The problem got worse because uncompetetive they are, they could not depreciate their currency and reduce the trade deficit due to the obligations of ECB.
Umairpk:”And where did the EU kicked the UK out of the euro???? UK was never part of the single currency in first place. “.

Yes UK was never part of single currency but was closely assosiated with Euro. Most of the corporate offices established themselves in London due to laissez faire nature of the government there. Both UK and Euro are going to lose due to UK’s isolation, but more the Euro since UK is the destination to lot of exports from Euro and its the countries of Euro which are in deep financial problems.

umairpk:”Despite the European debt crisis, there is talk of ECB acting as either a lendor of last resort, or implementation of EFSF (European Financial Stability Fund)together these measures are expected to stabilize the euro. No doubt there are challenges but together Germans as the bulwark of EU and France are expected to do whatever it takes to save the euro”.
You have unwittingly spoken the truth yourself. The fact that ECB is acting as lender or will try to write off the debts says by itself that infeasible nature of the monetary union.
1.Either the Euro should get more overriding powers over the national governements of the Europe and force spending cuts which are difficult to accept in a quasi socialistic setup.
2.European union has to depreciate the value of the Euro and impose trade barriers on China and India (which violates WTO) in an attempt reduce the fiscal and trade deficit of PIIGS.
Just because you have karachi doesn’t mean the whole country of Pakistan is as efficient as that city.
Similarly just because you have Germany doesn’t mean every country is as efficient as Germany is.

Posted by sensiblepatriot | Report as abusive
 

Umaripk:As for the US, its own AAA credit rating was downgraded by the S&P which shows internal weaknesses..blah blah and something about India”.
The jury is still out on this and in your rush to degrade US (due to sudden hostility which arose recently), you may well be downgrading US altogether. And you haven’t realized that Europe and US are cojoined twins with respect to Foreign and Economic policies (see WTO talks) and europe’s slander of Pakistan is only little passive to US.

With Regards to your comment on China, It was a bit hilarious to me. The Chinese President was seen last seen threatening US not to devalue the dollar in order to pay off its debts and close the trade deficit. The Chinese are scared that their wealth stashed in American banks as sovereign debt will lose in value if US devalues the dollar and may be its a statement by chinese threatening with “chinese charecteristics”, that the world calls it as begging. In any case, the fiscal nature of Chinese economic structure and economic composition of Chinese economy is going to force it to keep yuan pegged lower to the dollar. I have elaborated regarding this in my previous post. If chinese lets the Yuan loose, its going to fall further not appreciate.

Its an interesting comment on India, because if you see the percapita income of India and China. India is exactly where China was in 2000 (even after adding inflation). http://tinyurl.com/bqepaa8
This is due to the known fact that India liberalized 13 years after the Chinese did. Indian poverty rates were similiar to what Chinese suffered in their late 90′s and we are waiting for the improved statistics on India’s poverty in 2012 from the last census during which India had the best economic performance in its independent history.
I am sure you have heard about the Civilian protests demanding a National level Ombudsmen (Lokpal) which even most pessimists and politicians are privately agreeing that its going to be a game changer. A plethora of legislations pertaining to political reforms are on its way (Citizens charter, Electoral reforms,Judicial accountability,police reforms etc) and are expected to be passed well before the middle of this decade. The next five year plan is focussed on building infrastructure on a grand scale. The point is we know the direction and our eyes fixed on the steps needed to move and being 2nd fastest growing major economy isn’t that bad, is it?
I haven’t even questioned regarding the same in Pakistani discourse regarding this matter for the fear of feeding another troll and I hope you enlighten me on this ;-)

Posted by sensiblepatriot | Report as abusive
 

Umaripk:As for the US, its own AAA credit rating was downgraded by the S&P which shows internal weaknesses..blah blah and something about India”.
The jury is still out on this and in your rush to degrade US (due to sudden hostility which arose recently), you may well be downgrading US altogether. And you haven’t realized that Europe and US are cojoined twins with respect to Foreign and Economic policies (see WTO talks) and europe’s slander of Pakistan is only little passive to US.

With Regards to your comment on China, It was a bit hilarious to me. The Chinese President was seen last seen threatening US not to devalue the dollar in order to pay off its debts and close the trade deficit. The Chinese are scared that their wealth stashed in American banks as sovereign debt will lose in value if US devalues the dollar and may be its a statement by chinese threatening with “chinese charecteristics”, that the world calls it as begging. In any case, the fiscal nature of Chinese economic structure and economic composition of Chinese economy is going to force it to keep yuan pegged lower to the dollar. I have elaborated regarding this in my previous post. If chinese lets the Yuan loose, its going to fall further not appreciate.

Its an interesting comment on India, because if you see the percapita income of India and China. India is exactly where China was in 2000 (even after adding inflation). http://tinyurl.com/bqepaa8
This is due to the known fact that India liberalized 13 years after the Chinese did. Indian poverty rates were similiar to what Chinese suffered in their late 90′s and we are waiting for the improved statistics on India’s poverty in 2012 from the last census during which India had the best economic performance in its independent history.
I am sure you have heard about the Civilian protests demanding a National level Ombudsmen (Lokpal) which even most pessimists and politicians are privately agreeing that its going to be a game changer. A plethora of legislations pertaining to political reforms are on its way (Citizens charter, Electoral reforms,Judicial accountability,police reforms etc) and are expected to be passed well before the middle of this decade. The next five year plan is focussed on building infrastructure on a grand scale. The point is we know the direction and our eyes fixed on the steps needed to move and being 2nd fastest growing major economy isn’t that bad, is it?
I haven’t even questioned regarding the same in Pakistani discourse regarding this matter for the fear of feeding another troll and I hope you enlighten me on this ;-)

Posted by sensiblepatriot | Report as abusive
 

Sensible Patriot,
Umair reads only Mandarin and Urudu newspapers and then posts here what he “learnt”.

He doesn’t read Dawn or Express Tribune.

Here is a Dawn Column:

http://www.dawn.com/2011/12/18/pakistans -patrons.html

excerpts:

“During crises with India in 1990, 1999 and 2001-02, Pakistani civilian and military leaders made beelines to Beijing seeking backup.

They received polite but unmistakable advice to resolve their difficulties with New Delhi without major new weapon shipments or shrill public warnings against Indian military adventurism. Beijing helped the United States, South Asia`s essential crisis manager, more than it helped Pakistan during these three crises.”

“One method of dealing with Washington`s growing disaffection is by characterising security assurances purportedly made in pPRIVATE :-) by Chinese officials in ways that Beijing has notably refrained from reaffirming.

For example, during Defence Minister Ahmed Mukhtar`s trip to China in May 2011, he spoke appreciatively of Chinese construction of the Gwadar port, while expressing an interest in Chinese construction of “a naval base” there. When asked about this request, a senior Chinese foreign ministry spokesperson replied, “I have not heard about it.”:-)

“But the track record of China-Pakistan relations — especially during natural disasters and crises with India — suggests a relationship in which Pakistan asks for much and Beijing is circumspect about giving.”

Posted by netizen | Report as abusive
 

sensiblepatriot: “I still wonder why Americans allowed the Kunduz airlift to happen right under their noses, when they were about to score a victory over taliban and remains an enigma to me. No investigation or no information retrieval pertaining to this improper act was conducted.”

There is a National Geographic video series on the rise and fall of Taliban. In that it is shown that Musharraf made a deal with the US to airlift Pakistani soldiers and commanders trapped in Afghanistan after the US started its bombing campaign. The Americans seriously believed Musharraf to be an ally and went with his request. Pakistan not only airlifted its military personnel, but also many of the key Taliban and Al Qaeda members from Kunduz. America is paying the price now for that naive approach.

Posted by KPSingh01 | Report as abusive
 

Ganesh,
It was an extremely good article. Somebody said that in case of India, Gandhi built a sense of honour, dignity and respect that a civilizational state like India lost after centuries of foreign rule. That was his greatest contribution because, even though India endured hardships during its evolution as an independent state few felt leaving the country or seceding is the only solution. While Patel physically brought disparate provinces under one union through the threat of force, Ambedkar tried to bind us through consitutional obligations in order to bind this impossibly diverse nation and Nehru tried to build institutions it was only made possible by the common understanding that we need to make compromises socially and politically to accomodate as many people and as many ideologies as possible.
True, we had our failures too in the way of glaring poverty and still below par development, but the I always questioned whether we are more cohesive state today than we were 68 years ago?
Now I realize that the question is irrelevant and it should rather be – can we still be able to live together DESPITE our incohesive nature of our ideas, histories and about how we want the society to be and how we want to treat it.
India was a cauldron of emerging and dying philosophies all through its history which can be seen even in its majority religion where Atheism to unquestioned conformity to GOD coexist. This was the same reason why no single philosophy was able to completely dominate the nation (china could have fit in the same boat but for communism) and even when Islam and Christianity entered, they just exploded in hundreds of denominations (more for Islam due to its long historical and geographical presence).
The victorian ideas of a nationhood should never be the basis on our nationhood as it never had been.
I think this is the only point missing in otherwise a great article of yours.
It is that, the fear of India is not the only binding component for the Idea of Pakistan which I think came later. One must remember that geographical exclusivity never entered the minds of mullahs who had disdain for Jinnah’s idea of nationhood because Islamists never believedb in geographical boundary for the religion. Although Mirza Ghalib’s poetry did perpetrate the thought of nationhood, it was more to be seen as grievance for the loss of influence and empire.
Just like some upwardly mobile conservative Hindus who believe in victorian ideas of nationhood and never really understand the diverse cultural complexities of the nation(one language and religion would naturally become a nation), jinnah too was heavily influenced by the nations of europe which were neatly divided into countries based on common ethnicity (language), religion (catholic vs protestant) and history. Jinnah saw the adverserial relationship between Britain and France and felt nothing wrong about it. He in fact felt, it is only natural that they loathe each other.
The fear of India subsuming all the identities of Pakistan came much later after jinnah’s untimely death. By the time Jinnah was in his death bed, he was horrified to realize that inspite of every attempt by him to leave the traces of Hindustan, the extreme diverse nature of pakistani population still clung to old indian cultural influence would mean jinnah would have to built popular political movements like Gandhi all over again!!. The majority muslim state did not automatically make it a nation state as jinnah hoped.
With no binding ideology, the nation drifted under military rule but only after the loss of east bengal did india’s visceral hate entered popular conciousness and reached great proportions where for want of revenge, it started proxy war by training its own citizes (it supported insurgencies before but not directly involved its citizens) there by cutting its own feet.

Posted by sensiblepatriot | Report as abusive
 

kp:”In that it is shown that Musharraf made a deal with the US to airlift Pakistani soldiers and commanders trapped in Afghanistan after the US started its bombing campaign. The Americans seriously believed Musharraf to be an ally and went with his request”
I think Americans must be repenting at this.

Posted by sensiblepatriot | Report as abusive
 

Netizen:”But the track record of China-Pakistan relations — especially during natural disasters and crises with India — suggests a relationship in which Pakistan asks for much and Beijing is circumspect about giving”.
Netizen, the inferiority complex of the nation (nation here refers to the rulers of Pakistan) is only a sidekick of the larger problem.

Posted by sensiblepatriot | Report as abusive
 

sensiblepatriot: “I think Americans must be repenting at this.”

Americans act like cowboys. They let the cow run wild and try to catch it by the tail. The cow usually tramples them quite a lot. They fall for the facade of hospitality, diplomatic speech, charm etc. Pakistanis have been very good at this. Westerners love being pampered. Pakistani diplomats could paint the faces of the gullible Westerners black while charming them with their deceptive hospitality manoeuvrings. Most of them can lie convincingly, on the spot and get away with anything. Look at Musharraf’s international speeches and interviews. This guy can sell anyone’s mother. American generals love their Pakistani counterparts. And this gets enhanced when they encounter the Indian diplomats and generals who lack any diplomatic skills, are rude and blunt and lack charisma mostly. AQ Khan could charm everyone including a white woman, get married to her, walk into ultra secret facilities, smuggle out sensitive blueprints, and build an entire nuclear bomb facility in Pakistan. Charm can accomplish that far. One can only do so much lying. The reality is exposed. But the Americans have a lot of black paint to wipe off their faces.

Posted by KPSingh01 | Report as abusive
 

See the following videos:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qSinK-dVr ig

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G5-lSSC9d SE

Americans and their allies knew all along that they were being fooled. But they went with it. Obama is the first one to take a step back and refuse to be fooled. And it shows in the repercussions Pakistan is facing now.

Posted by KPSingh01 | Report as abusive
 

Those who are banking on China as the new savior of their world, should take a look at this article:

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/12/19/opinio n/krugman-will-china-break.html?hp

Also there is a video that shows how the bubble is building up there:

http://www.sbs.com.au/dateline/story/wat ch/id/601007/n/China-s-Ghost-Cities

All weather friends might want to see the reality.

Posted by KPSingh01 | Report as abusive
 

@sensible patriot
@Umairpk

It is not easy to imagine the downfal of the world’s greatest super power, militarily as well as economicaly.
Out of Iraq in darkness leaving Abu Ghareb and the hundreds of thousands dead Iraqis behind, defeated on the battle ground by the so called taliban Pashtoons and stranded with the most advanced and lethal non- conventional weaponry in Afghanistan on account of showing arrogance to Pakistan, is the most sinister but attractive story for any newspaper.
The use of drones in the future warfares is also in taters since the IT hackers intervene in the communication system and brought down the silent baby in the lap of Iranians. The object is now under study by the experts from China and Russia. Russia has also announced the construction of anti.anti missile system along the border of Poland. Thank you Mr Obama, an african had to demonstrate some innovation and why not destabilize Europe for a change.
The lady in the red is initiating once again embarked on the path of a cold war with Russia?

The facts are that the European economy is larger than that of the USA, but not yet under a single political and economic Govt. The system currently adopted by the Europeans with the exception of the UK, is that the European Bank is independent and does not automatically print currency to offset the debt level in Europe. Whereas, the USA Govt. starts printing dollars once the congress has approved/increased the debt level. Mr Sarkozy proposed the American system for Europe as well but did not receive support from Mrs Merkel and other strong Euro countries sinc this the recipee for uncontrolled inflation.
Because of ammateur and bad behaviour of David Cameron in recent European meetings , UK future in the European union under a consrvative Govt. is no longer certain. But this is a different story.

Almost forty percent of the american GDP is derived from the Wall street financial services. The manufacturing base is softening rapidly, while the manufacturing capacity of China is continualy expanding. The USA can not survive on the stregnth of Ipads and drones.

The Soviet Union went flat after its debacle in Afghanistan and the USA is going to have the same fate. It is a pity that Pakistan military leaders played foul with its own ctzens, lost a too many citizens fighting other citizens and all this because the former General Musharaf had no balls and caved in against the threats?
More american soldiers have lost their lives in Afghanistan under the watch of Mr Obama than under George W. What a legacy for a potential one time President versus Jimmy carter who basts that under his one time Presidency not a single american soldier lost his life?

Rex Minor

Posted by pakistan | Report as abusive
 

KPSingh:
The BBC documentary, secret Pakistan is just rubbish. The good thing about ISI is it fights as a first line of defense for Pakistan in a silent war. It can be frustrating, but it has to be that way. The BBC never told the two sides of the story in history, the lies continue.

Rex:
Every empire in history saw its downfall, the days of US may not be numbered. But they have been on the peak for a while, no doubt the only way forward is downhill.

Posted by Umairpk | Report as abusive
 

Umairpk: “The BBC documentary, secret Pakistan is just rubbish. The good thing about ISI is it fights as a first line of defense for Pakistan in a silent war. It can be frustrating, but it has to be that way. The BBC never told the two sides of the story in history, the lies continue.”

I understand that from Pakistan’s standpoint the ISI is the golden institution that upholds its nation’s priority as the most important thing. But it is not rubbish from an overall perspective. I wouldn’t say the CIA is made up of angels either. There is a very faint demarcation between an intelligence system and a criminal syndicate. Based on what we have been observing, it makes one wonder if the ISI is really acting on its national interest or towards controlling Pakistan from within. If the latter is true then that is an extremely dangerous thing. The nation is helpless and a syndicate can do whatever suits its best interest and will bear no responsibility for its actions because it was done under “national interest”. ISI does control the Pakistani media considerably and exterminates reporters that do not align with its vision (Shahzad’s murder is one example). ISI also has deep interaction with organizations that are considered as terrorist institutions by the international community. This makes the ISI resemble a rogue syndicate that basically runs its own affairs and aligns the nation with its goals. The BBC video may not be 100% accurate. But ISI is deeply involved in many activities that can harm the neighborhood as well as Pakistan itself. I wouldn’t call the coverage as rubbish. It is just a matter of which side of the fence one is sitting. When the war against the Soviets was going on, CIA and ISI slept together on the same bed. I wish someone made a similar documentary on the CIA for its activities. ISI is all that is being covered by the world media today.

Posted by KPSingh01 | Report as abusive
 

Rex: but not yet under a single political and economic Govt.

I will die out of laughing. First, the Europeans keep giving every tom, dick, harry, his own country (or NATION as he calls it) and then strive for a single political govt. What kind of stupidity is that?? Why divide in first place when you later strive for single govt. And then this character lectures India and Pakistan on Kashmir and our history in general. Mark my words, Euro will fall. German efficiency will not go on feeding Greek, Italian, Spanish laziness forever. And that day will come when every European will want UK to set their finances in order (ofcourse UK needs to set its own house in order first). Question is, whether Germany will be seen as villain for a third time in history and this time wrongly so.

@Pakis
As long as you keep blaming others for your own mistakes, you will keep suffering all that time. But then you don’t believe in theory of Karma.

@KPSingh01
“ISI is all that is being covered by the world media today.”

This is not surprising since almost all western media is easily influenced by money power from US govt circles. I find CNN and NYTimes to be just puppets and propaganda media in hands of US govt. BBC could still be trusted to some extent but only some.

P.S.
This post of mine is the WILL OF ALLAH, mind you.

Posted by 007XX | Report as abusive
 

Breaking News quoting TOI:
“The United States has said that Taliban is not an enemy of America, a move seen as the latest effort of the Obama administration to send an olive branch to the terrorist outfit that ruled Afghanistan before 9/11.

“Look, the Taliban per se is not our enemy. That’s critical,” US Vice President Joe Biden said in an interview to the Newsweek magazine.”
This throws a curve for Bharti strategist to deal with. What say you?

I also told you that drones are not such a big deal and Iranians proved that in days.

Do you not see the change in American policy or do I have to spoon feed you. I will give you a hint, Americans have also pulled away from Zardari.

Please don’t write a five page response. Thanks.

Posted by Matrixx | Report as abusive
 

@Matrixx

Just a reminder;

The Pashtuns or the so called Talibans do not negotiate with foreigners; one must defeat them or meet their demands!Their demand are very simple! Get out of their territory! They are usualy colour blind and do not recognise the olive colour! Their sixteen years boys are now in a position to bring down the little kites safely as well.

Two USA administrations (Bush & Obama)have managed finaly to isolate the USA from the rest of the world!

Rex Minor

Posted by pakistan | Report as abusive
 

PS
BBC follows the official policy of the British Govt. and Aljazeera in English is following the official line of the USA and has several CIA paid anchors!

Posted by pakistan | Report as abusive
 

Matrixx: “”“Look, the Taliban per se is not our enemy. That’s critical,” US Vice President Joe Biden said in an interview to the Newsweek magazine.”
This throws a curve for Bharti strategist to deal with. What say you?”

Taliban was never considered as an enemy. The reason why the US attacked Afghanistan was because of the ultimatum GWB gave to countries that support and harbor Al Qaeda. Taliban led Afghanistan at that time did. The US also would have attacked Pakistan. But they checked with Musharraf and the brave soldier that he is, he switched sides and decided to deceive the Americans.

The US was after Al Qaeda. Capturing or killing of OBL was one of the objectives. The reason why the US is antagonistic to Taliban is because the Taliban has been sabotaging US efforts in Afghanistan with Pakistan’s help. They are holding secret meetings with Taliban where they are negotiating a settlement where Taliban might promise not to upstage American efforts and become a part of the nation building.

There is nothing new in any of this. India is against the Taliban because it was created and sustained by Pakistani army for a strategic depth. If Pakistan can abandon that pursuit, India has no qualms about what Afghans do for themselves.

“I also told you that drones are not such a big deal and Iranians proved that in days.”

Do not assume that Americans are going to sit and give up on their drones. If someone found a loop hole in their technology, they are probably working on fixing it.

Posted by KPSingh01 | Report as abusive
 

KPSingh:
“I wish someone made a similar documentary on the CIA for its activities. ISI is all that is being covered by the world media today.”

-No, KP there is a lot on CIA, books, documentaries etc its only that you are just not interest to figure. Go figure, google “John Stockwell” his book “In search of enemies”, operation IA Feature, Iran contra affair, use of mind control drugs,

John Stockwell on the Morality of the CIA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DFPayzr8d SM&list=FLvJFFUig3RR9rXKY96zHRzg&index=1 4&feature=plpp_video

THE SECRET WARS OF THE CIA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FElp4V5YR i0&list=FLvJFFUig3RR9rXKY96zHRzg&index=6 4&feature=plpp_video

CIA Mind Control Experiments: MK-ULTRA Documentary
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BUrDog-dg 4s

Go see it for yourself, you will find that ISI is nothing for what CIA is.

Just leave you with this;

Spy vs Spy (CIA & ISI)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=02s2o7_4A sM&list=FLvJFFUig3RR9rXKY96zHRzg&index=4 &feature=plpp_video

This is the side above that BBC does not tell you and will never tell you in future. Because all that rubbish is for fools to believe.

Posted by Umairpk | Report as abusive
 

KPSingh:
“Do not assume that Americans are going to sit and give up on their drones. If someone found a loop hole in their technology, they are probably working on fixing it.”

-US drone strikes in Pakistan on longest pause since 2008
http://www.longwarjournal.org/archives/2 011/12/us_drone_strikes_in.php

Since Nov 16 there has been no drone strike inside Pakistan, the rules of engagement has been revamped by Pakistan Military. It is quite possible that in future any potential drones intruding Pakistan’s airspace are shot down. For now, the US had to give up its presence on Shamsi airbase in Pakistan. The only good option, as Joe Biden said is to accept the reality, and make peace with Taliban. Ok, it will be humiliating for a super power to accept defeat. But US is not alone in history, didn’t the Soviet Union accept its defeat gracefully and left Afghanistan. Saving face is always good, but at what expense is the question? One thing is certain, it is not sure whether the US will loose the war in Afghanistan or not, but it is absolutely clear it sure is not going to win it at any cost. The only way out is a political solution with Pakistan’s help.

Posted by Umairpk | Report as abusive
 

On a lighter note, just for your consumption KPSingh, since these days you don’t want to miss anything the media spins about ISI, enjoy this:

Indian Army Officer honey trapped by ISI
http://www.ndtv.com/article/india/indian -army-officer-honey-trapped-by-isi-15952 1?pfrom=home-topstories

Cheers!

Posted by Umairpk | Report as abusive
 

Secrets of the CIA

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9QYZBMIBO ck&feature=related

Crooks In Action or state sponsored terrorists? you decide.

Posted by Umairpk | Report as abusive
 

@KPS
You still don’t get it. I gave you a hint, but you still don’t get it. I’ll explain it no further.
As far as peace with Pakistan, you know the price India has to pay or may be I should not mention the “K” word to spare hurt to your feelings.

Posted by Matrixx | Report as abusive
 

Umairpk: “No, KP there is a lot on CIA, books, documentaries etc its only that you are just not interest to figure”

Did I ever say CIA is made of angels? I’d rate it as one of the worst rogue organizations in the world. It has mentored and created a monster out of the ISI. Now the master and the disciple are engaged in a sword fight against each other. How wonderful? I am really glad that India did not rush in become an ally of the US after Independence. The CIA would never have allowed any democracy to set root in India. India would have become a banana republic or splintered into many nations, civil wars and chaos. Though the Russians were no angels, they left us alone to handle our internal matters. Your leaders eagerly offered their heads to the Americans and look at what they have done to your country. At least in the USA, the CIA does not get to control the country’s destiny. ISI on the other hand, does. So it has grown beyond its expected potential and now has become a danger to the whole region, including Pakistan. This is something, you will not realize because of your faith in your military. Though India is cozying up with the West, we have our skeptics about the benevolence of the US. So we will be cautious. We have tried to emphasize and rely on our own independent thinking. Our economic growth is not entirely reliant on the US either.

Posted by KPSingh01 | Report as abusive
 

Umairpk: “Indian Army Officer honey trapped by ISI”

Honey traps are common techniques used by intelligence agencies to infiltrate and scout agents. Do not assume the RAW is not doing the same thing inside Pakistan. You lose a point if your agent gets caught.

Posted by KPSingh01 | Report as abusive
 

Umairpk: “The only good option, as Joe Biden said is to accept the reality, and make peace with Taliban. Ok, it will be humiliating for a super power to accept defeat.”

Making a settlement is not tantamount to defeat. A defeat is something where one party surrenders unconditionally to the other. For example, General Niazi’s surrender in Dhaka is a well documented defeat. The ceasefire agreement signed between India and Pakistan in 1948 or 1965 is not surrender. When Musharraf had to wipe off the egg on his face after forced to withdraw from Kargil, that is a defeat. You need to know the difference between defeat, surrender and negotiated settlement. So do not celebrate yet.

“But US is not alone in history, didn’t the Soviet Union accept its defeat gracefully and left Afghanistan. Saving face is always good, but at what expense is the question? ”

The US might gracefully exit from Afghanistan. But it will leave land mines inside Pakistan to cause long term effects that will not be conducive for a better future. They not only fight wars with weapons and soldiers, but also by other means. The Soviets lost to the US in Afghanistan by the latter method. Soviet Union disappeared. The same might happen to your country. I am not wishing for it. Big guys do not like defeat and if they get to survive and hang around, the counter punch is coming. The US drove Saddam’s army out of Kuwait in 1991. But they returned in 2003 to completely destroy his power base. Vengeance is something the powerful guys will exercise if they can.

Posted by KPSingh01 | Report as abusive
 

Umairpk: “Crooks In Action or state sponsored terrorists? you decide.”

I am not arguing against you here. CIA is a rogue organization as bad as the ISI. I’d like to have an international law that prohibits countries from running such organizations. Their activities must be curtailed to just gathering intelligence and they should not be allowed to stage clandestine wars, assassinations, coups, proxy wars etc. That makes them criminal organizations. Your ISI has gone one step further. It has begun to rely on radicalized elements. That is a dangerous weapon. At some point it will eat Pakistan itself alive. We are seeing the demonstration of that already.

Posted by KPSingh01 | Report as abusive
 

Matrixx: “As far as peace with Pakistan, you know the price India has to pay or may be I should not mention the “K” word to spare hurt to your feelings.”

The “K” word has brought Pakistan to where it is. It is better off for Pakistan to give up the claim and move on. India is not going to budge because of geo-strategic reasons. Pakistan has bankrupted itself trying to wrest Kashmir out of India’s hand. At least it had US dollars pouring in before. Now that is going to dry up. Not only the US, its lap dogs will follow suit as well. Jihadi machinery will not help. Everything has been tried and has failed utterly. If you Pakistanis seriously want to live well, take a look at your country and see if you can help build it.

Posted by KPSingh01 | Report as abusive
 

Matrixx said:

> As far as peace with Pakistan, you know the price India has to pay or may be I should not mention the “K” word to spare hurt to your feelings.

“K” word? Did you mean Karma?? That’s the price _Pakistan_ is already paying for sponsoring violence against its perceived enemies, isn’t it?

Seriously though, your favourite issue of Kashmir will be settled when two things happen:

1. Pakistanis begin to accept that being Muslim is not a valid reason to leave India. Indian Muslims have lately become more vocal in asserting their identity as Indians and telling Pakistanis to back off. It may take a while for the message to sink in, but it eventually will. [India should thank Pakistan for the Mumbai 2008 attacks as these have strengthened Indian solidarity like nothing before.]

2. Kashmiris take a harder look at their options and realise that staying within India is more viable for them than either joining Pakistan or going it alone. There are already success stories of Kashmiri businessmen (Muslims, not just Pundits) making it big in Bangalore, Mumbai, etc. Give it a few more years and they’ll settle down. Money always talks louder than violence.

Meanwhile, Matrixx, maybe you guys need to look at your own “B” before it becomes another “B”. Get it?

Regards,
Ganesh Prasad

Posted by prasadgc | Report as abusive
 

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