Comments on: Difa-e-Pakistan: What we know and do not want to hear http://blogs.reuters.com/pakistan/2012/02/16/difa-e-pakistan-what-we-know-and-do-not-want-to-hear/ Perspectives on Pakistan Thu, 01 Oct 2015 19:31:05 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=4.2.5 By: stabhishek http://blogs.reuters.com/pakistan/2012/02/16/difa-e-pakistan-what-we-know-and-do-not-want-to-hear/comment-page-1/#comment-40356 Wed, 29 Feb 2012 14:41:33 +0000 http://blogs.reuters.com/pakistan/?p=8354#comment-40356 Religion, the reason of state, is unraveling Pakistan. If Pakistanis think that the departure of NATO troops will mean no more suicide bombing, I bet they are very much mistaken. The goals of TTP is to turn Pakistan into an Islamist state. Pakistanis have only one way out. The antidote of religion is religious freedom and democracy.

http://thepoliticalopportunist.blogspot. in/

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By: pakistan http://blogs.reuters.com/pakistan/2012/02/16/difa-e-pakistan-what-we-know-and-do-not-want-to-hear/comment-page-1/#comment-40334 Mon, 27 Feb 2012 01:56:55 +0000 http://blogs.reuters.com/pakistan/?p=8354#comment-40334 @Sensible patriot

You have a very complex personality, this surprises me since in my view you have a vast knowledge and experience. Your approach should be straight and precise.
I said Godless, because you people do not believe in God and as such you are always skeptical and therefore unlikely to trust humans. I could have similar problems with the chinese as well.

Have you ever come across army Generals? I guess not? They are the most down to earth straight forward soldiers. They are trained and drilled to obey orders from their superiors, who could be a brilliant politician or a clown that we have in several countries today. The military just follows the orders. Did we not experience Sikh military cutting down their kith and kin and religious leaders and their own temple? Did we not xperience the WW2, the military marching in all directions on the orders of Hitler?

The Geo strategic deliberations and the spin that the neo liberal conservatives of the USA have brought into play in politis and foreign relations is shabby and is definitely not the brainchilld of the military.

Did I say something about Gen. Ayub, I sometime think loudly. Yes, in this case they sent the civilian head of state to exile since among the officer the consensus was that in case of martial law, a civilian dictator is not acceptable. Very simple and straight.
In a similar situation the military could do the repeat of fifties. But as you mentioned about the involvement of the judiciary in the act they are running around like headless chickens, while the Supremo is holding the strings. On top of that the Yanks have made the lives of their allies very complicated indeed.

No, honestly unguided and without military complicity, what we are seeing is a reaction from the grass roots od what the Yanks have been doing in Afghanistan and Pakistan, we are seeing is the spring revolution of arabs reaching the shores of Pakistan. A revolution which is likely to take a decade or more, the Aufklarung of Islam, which the christianity experienced in Europe a very long time ago. The world of Islam which Ibn Batuta discovered is likely to change separating cultures and traditions from the religion, estabishing democratic Govts by the people secular, leaving religious and faith to the clergy.
Afghans must clean up their territories after what the the foreigners have demonstrated in recent weeks. I have said it before that they are unlikely to return to their bunkers and they will try to open their way to the warm waters at Baluchistan as well as towards Kashmir to complete the unfinished job in Kashmir.

Too bad that the Indian military is suppressing the peaceful kashmiri people unnecessarily. How does this function under a civilian head and in a secular democracy of India? Even according to Dharma, some one said that there must be consequences for Indian military.

Let Pakistan and India use the loly pops to stop the Afghans. They have no trucks with the chinese.

Rex Minor

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By: sensiblepatriot http://blogs.reuters.com/pakistan/2012/02/16/difa-e-pakistan-what-we-know-and-do-not-want-to-hear/comment-page-1/#comment-40331 Sun, 26 Feb 2012 17:33:04 +0000 http://blogs.reuters.com/pakistan/?p=8354#comment-40331 Rex: “So, now after ramblings of others, the leader of the Godless country in the neighbourhood tells us that Pakistan military is behind the Protests which have started surfacing near the shores of Karachi. Strange conclusions”.
Rex, I don’t see anything wrong or surprising if Army of Pakistan had complicity in the formation of DPC. They may not micromanaging every event and I will come with better proof of their complicity in my next post. If one reads the history of Paksitan, the Army was an equal player in its political discourse (actually more than equal) and there is nothing wrong in accepting this fact. Pakistani people may see Army as a seperate institution but people all over the world ( and so is in India and liberal journalists in english media) see the Army as just another institution which has political ambitions (a quasi political party). Given the history of nations, this is perfectly common. I remember you saying a lot of times that in 50’s Ayub had to disobey orders from the civilian-bureaucratic governments as they were deemed unconstitional by the Army and the Army refused to shoot the protesters for the same reason. If Average Pakistanis think Army has no role to play in the creation of DPC and are ashamed to even admit it (if they realize that indeed Army had a role), then its a remarkable change in the mindset of Pakistanis and we could celebrate this attitudinal change. I would go further and say that the day of coup’s is over for Pakistan with the explosion of private media and the internet which dissects every microscopic incident that happens in Pakistan.
The Army must have realized that with the revolution in communications and social media, Anyone (mostly from youth, of whom Pakistan has plenty) with even a cheap cellphone can take a picture (or video) or two and post it on the internet and can bring strong censure against any establishment. The establishment can clampdown or buyout the private TV media but how can they do it with internet without bringing the entire telecommunication infrastructure down.The Army realized that it is better to rule by proxy and given its ultimate stick (i.e threat of a coup)to control politicians slipping away, the politicians can only get more emboldened to take on Pakistani Army as politicians know now the limits of even the most powerful Army. So now Army is now merely a player and not a policy formulator and so they try to influence policy by movements by DPC.
I will give three instances where this communication revolution played its role
1) the constant screening of 9/11 attacks had completely turned the tide against the islamic militants, who before were allies of America (based on its geopolitical interests), even with all the bad blood between nations, there is consensus among the nations of Russia,China,India and US to root out terrorism. Atleast as far as India is concerned militants in kashmir now find no support for their activities.
2)Even in the case internal scenarios like Gujarath riots (2002 in india), it is now impossible to repeat state’s deliberate inaction or worse complicity in such cases. Even in Pakistan riots have receded as these are visible voilent acts and is now transformed to suicide bombings. Fringe elements realize that they dont have social sanction to conduct such heinous crimes.
3)Dictators and institutions which govern with impunity and trample upon human rights are under growing pressure and are cornered for their actions. Interestingly even in Kashmir the human right violations by both the Army and militants have gone down precipitously and forced a rethink on part of both. One has to show gratitude as much to the spread of revolutionary communications as with the people. Before people were fighting with vain hope of liberty but now are fighting in the hope that even if they die their cause will be highlighted to majority of human population.
As for the “Godless country” remark, you might well notice that China is the actual Godless country which you might seem to have no problems with. Secular countries doesn’t mean Godlessness, it means neutral with respect to religious affairs (most of Europe) or treaing all religions equally(India and other Asian nations).

Rex:”Afghans are going to clean up their territory of nonmuslims now in and around Afghanistan, and the march shall be directed across the border in Pakistan towards the Baluchistan and Kashmir territories”.
Since you are saying muslims will cleanup, will they cleanup even the territories under Chinese control (Xinjiang) who seem to be excercising even more brute force than either India or America or is it that geopolitical interests here won over cultural-religious interests.

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By: pakistan http://blogs.reuters.com/pakistan/2012/02/16/difa-e-pakistan-what-we-know-and-do-not-want-to-hear/comment-page-1/#comment-40330 Sun, 26 Feb 2012 15:08:59 +0000 http://blogs.reuters.com/pakistan/?p=8354#comment-40330 So, now after ramblings of others, the leader of the Godless country in the neighbourhood tells us that Pakistan military is behind the Protests which have started surfacing near the shores of Karachi. Strange conclusions.

Here is my forecast, a reminder that I said long time ago. The Afghans are going to clean up their territory of nonmuslims now in and around Afghanistan, and the march shall be directed across the border in Pakistan towards the Baluchistan and Kashmir territories. Those who oppose this march would be the loosers.Neither coersion nor any kind of force is going to stop the spring revolution which started in Tunisia, is having its usual hiccups but is right on track. Fellows, open the history books, it is nothing special or dramatic but just a re-run without the use of lolipops.

Rex Minor

PS I can understand Indians concerns, there are too many 5th columnists in India

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By: sensiblepatriot http://blogs.reuters.com/pakistan/2012/02/16/difa-e-pakistan-what-we-know-and-do-not-want-to-hear/comment-page-1/#comment-40328 Sun, 26 Feb 2012 06:59:42 +0000 http://blogs.reuters.com/pakistan/?p=8354#comment-40328 The article could have been summed up simply by saying DPC (Difa-e-Pakistan Council) is a proxy organization by Army (with a mixture of Establishment,Islamists and few terrorist organizations) which is demanding the return of status-quo politics.
Something tell me, Army cannot replicate it exactly the same way as it did last time around by bringing Nawaz Sharif (an army agent in 1990’s who is now a detractor). But of course if the economy continues to sink, more and more people will be attracted to fringe groups and an automatic improvement in the foce projection of the Army.
For the Last few years the Army has consistenly ceded its authority as a moral compass for the Nation (due to OBL affair,mehran airbase,War on Terror etc) and its diminished role is now limited to vie for influence along with other influence groups like the politicians, the liberal civilian groups,Islamists and Judiciary rather than being an empire which sets rules for the game.
The recent rallies and protest movements are an attempt by the Army to gain some legitimacy and de-jure influence in the power structure of Pakistani political discourse. When Pakistani military under musharaff freed the air waves to private enterprises with the intention of mud-slingling the political order and equally a constant smear campaign with scare mongering, it failed to realize that this new facility can be used by detractors too and just as people see even the smallest failures of politicians with big mirrors, so does they see failures of the military in equally big mirrors.

Remember that Pakistani politicians never had such a great fame (just like any other country) for posterity,honesty and level headedness and was no big surprise for the masses or the middle class. But when failures of the Army were to be shown in different private TV channels constantly, Middle classes and the Army realized that they shot their own feet by allowing the universalization of information like internet and host of private TV channels (just as what printing press did to the established catholic order in old christendom).
Both Jinnah and Bhutto have unwittingly or by design implanted religion into the politics of Pakistan and even if Pakistani political and cultural discourse were to move into promised land of Good Governance, the political order of the day must continously keep the Army (through its establishment) and the religious zealots in good humour and be constantly appease so as not to halt the Pakistani states attempts and regaining political order governed by civilians. The one good thing that emerged out of Imran khan politics and Judiciary-Zardari face off is that now a critical mass have rallied around institutions (be it under judiciary or Tehreek-e-insaaf) that look for more transperancy than the current incumbents.
There is of course a danger lurking around where Pakistani politic may fall backwards due to cocky judiciary and ambigous size of Imran’s spine and nerve (whether he will fall for the Army of not).

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By: 007XX http://blogs.reuters.com/pakistan/2012/02/16/difa-e-pakistan-what-we-know-and-do-not-want-to-hear/comment-page-1/#comment-40316 Thu, 23 Feb 2012 07:39:40 +0000 http://blogs.reuters.com/pakistan/?p=8354#comment-40316 Rex: “Iran and Saudis could go for oil embargo against India, if its conflict with Pakistan and its military occupation of Kashmir does not end”

This character has devised a new way of killing Indians on this blog, by creating laughter. Seriously any Iranian/Indian reading this will surely die out of laughter. There were days when India and Iran trade went well with payments being made in USD. Then came the US sanctions. So Indians started payments in Euro via German banks. Then came European sanctions. Despite both sanctions India maintained the relationships (Healthy ones at that) with Iran and continued to buy oil from Iran even when US and Israel were very angry with India. And now payments for Iranian oil is made half in INR and half with rice exports from India to Iran. Israel is so desperate to split India-Iran relationship that it arranged a bomb explosion near Israeli embassy in India and then blamed it on Iran. And even then India continued to buy oil from Iran. Does anyone thinks that Iran gives a sh*t to Pakistan’s position??

P.S.
Anyone thinking India being not capable of buying oil from someone other than Iran is living in fool’s world. Iran knows India’s international stature too well and hence accepted payments in rice.

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By: pakistan http://blogs.reuters.com/pakistan/2012/02/16/difa-e-pakistan-what-we-know-and-do-not-want-to-hear/comment-page-1/#comment-40315 Wed, 22 Feb 2012 23:23:19 +0000 http://blogs.reuters.com/pakistan/?p=8354#comment-40315 @Umair

You raised a question about muslim countries embargo on oil! You reckon that Iran and Saudis could go for oil embargo against India, if its conflict with Pakistan and its military occupation of Kashmir does not end?

Rex Minor

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By: KPSingh01 http://blogs.reuters.com/pakistan/2012/02/16/difa-e-pakistan-what-we-know-and-do-not-want-to-hear/comment-page-1/#comment-40314 Wed, 22 Feb 2012 19:31:56 +0000 http://blogs.reuters.com/pakistan/?p=8354#comment-40314 DaraIndia: “It is also funny to hear Umair day dreaming of his nuclear toys. If I remember right, a few months ago he kept saying – Trade, trade and more trade is the only answer to a better future”

It is funny to see these guys grab the nuke holster if India is concerned and change the stance if Iran is involved. They do not realize that Iran, despite getting the technology from Pakistan, will be a nuclear power soon. And they probably will be the ones who might challenge Pakistan for a brotherly nuclear 20/20 game. With Oil money and nuclear power, missles and what not, Iran might begin to think along the lines of a regional super power and may not like to see Pakistan at an equal status. I don’t think a Sunni based Pakistan would like to play subservient to a Shia dominated Iran. Intersting times are ahead for these Islamic brothers. We should let them embrace each other and let their beards tangle with each other. That is the only way to save the region and probably the world. I do not understand why these guys are itching to drop nukes on non-Muslims.

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By: pakistan http://blogs.reuters.com/pakistan/2012/02/16/difa-e-pakistan-what-we-know-and-do-not-want-to-hear/comment-page-1/#comment-40311 Wed, 22 Feb 2012 15:41:09 +0000 http://blogs.reuters.com/pakistan/?p=8354#comment-40311 All political and military leaders of the world indulge in double talk, one for the public consumption at home and the second one for the foreign audiece. Every now and then wikileak or media investigators come out with the third version, probably the real version and surprise the last.

A Pakistany ex militar man said on this blog way back that the military is going to take over Waziristan in five days. This caused me to challege him and ever since remained present on this blog to follow the events in and around Afghanistan.My forecast was that neither the USA and its allies nor the pakistan military are a match fo Pushtoons tribesmen who are more than 40 million strong.

I have read theories and seen results of battles, and in the meantime read Warburton srory of the Pushtoons twice.

Pakistan military with long range artillery is not a match and the American marines and seals are a bunch of very eager boyscouts. The heicopters crew fly over the territory full of fear and occasionaly comes down with a single bullet from the ground, and the disappoited yanks started pissing on the dead bodies they find after air attack.

This is not only a sign of defeat but also a slap on the face of the so called commander in chief who refused to listen to his commander on ground, one of the best in my opinion, the four star General Macchrystal.

Pakistany military have put a stop on their deads and are no longer facing the tribesmen but staying in their posts as allocated to them by the tribal elders.

@Umair
Pakistan military should now come out with a single true statement that it will protect its citizens and that there is no militant element.

The yanky leader is now embarked on a strategy as proposed to him by the calabrian chief to build mafia type CIA as well as military special troops wih unmanned drones to fight future battles in foreign land.

Rex Minor

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By: DaraIndia http://blogs.reuters.com/pakistan/2012/02/16/difa-e-pakistan-what-we-know-and-do-not-want-to-hear/comment-page-1/#comment-40310 Wed, 22 Feb 2012 06:31:24 +0000 http://blogs.reuters.com/pakistan/?p=8354#comment-40310 Every country has a lunatic fringe. In almost all other countries it is sidelined, tracked and kept in check as far as possible. However, Pakistan is the exception which proves the rule. And if proof were needed here it is:

“For purely pragmatic reasons, the army – which has lost many of its own men and officers fighting militants in the tribal areas bordering Afghanistan – has also traditionally preferred to allow some militant leaders to operate openly above ground in order to keep a better watch on them.”

It would be funny if it were not so tragic for Pakistan.

It is also funny to hear Umair day dreaming of his nuclear toys. If I remember right, a few months ago he kept saying – Trade, trade and more trade is the only answer to a better future. – Blowing in the wind again.

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