McCain “disappointed” that media declared debate a tie
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WASHINGTON – Republican White House hopeful John McCain, fresh from his first debate with Democratic rival Barack Obama in Mississippi, expressed regret on Saturday that his performance didn’t win over all the pundits in the press.
“I was a little disappointed the media called it a tie but I think that means, when they call it a tie, that means we win,” McCain said during a telephone call that was caught by cameras filming him at his campaign headquarters.
Both camps claimed victory after the 90-minute debate on Friday.
Meanwhile, Obama’s campaign manager, David Plouffe, sought to lower expectations for the next debate in Tennessee on Oct. 7. It will be conducted in a town-hall style with questions from an audience.
“We will be a decided underdog in that encounter, and John McCain is the undisputed town hall champion,” Plouffe told reporters on a conference call, noting that McCain — who is fond of the format — had challenged Obama to do joint town hall meetings throughout the summer.
“He clearly feels, even more than the foreign policy debate, this is his home turf. So if we can just escape relatively unscathed against the undisputed town hall champion in Tennessee, we’ll be thrilled.”
Obama has held regular town halls of his own throughout the 2008 campaign and does not appear to struggle with the format.
Click here for more Reuters 2008 campaign coverage.
Photo credit: Reuters/Brian Snyder (McCain talks on the phone at his campaign headquarters in Arlington, Virginia, on Sept. 27)
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Mavrick as REAL! Obama as FAKE!
America am need good real people as like us! McCain and Palin!
AS BE GET!
Obama supporters say they can’t wait for the vice presidential debate. But let’s not be smug. Don’t under estimate Palin’s ability to give a good performance. And don’t under estimate Biden’s ability to make a gaffe. That being said…. Obama/Biden 08!!!
McCain did not look at Obama at all, while Obama noted points of agreement with McCain. This says that:
1. McCain claims to be able to stare down Putin and other adversaries, but can’t face Obama.
2. McCain claims to be able to “reach across the aisle” and work with Democrats, but did not even glance across the stage at one.
3. McCain looks like an angry old snarling fool, just barely able to contain himself, while Obama was calm, cool, collected and gentlemanly.
Pretty easy to see why polls show Obama won the debate…
While McCain name dropped a good deal about his foreign policy experience, he showed how little he studied while in the military and at West Point. His irritation about strategy vs tactics and his attempt to “educate” Obama about it proved he did not have the education to know the difference. In any organization, strategy and tactics have different meanings depending on your level in the organization. From an individual soldier or even a commander, the surge can be viewed as a strategy whereas the implementation of the surge are the tactics. But when you elevate into an executive role, such as from the President, a surge is a tactic. The strategy would be the decision to commit to remaining in Iraq or withdraw due to the civil war. Once this decision has been made and the strategy that we will remain in Iraq with specific and measurable goals are reached then leave is established. Then tactics of how to accomplish this strategy and meet the goals are decided by commanders in the field, like General Petraeus. In this case the tactic was to create a surge of troops to better contain the violence.
What this all means is McCain does not have the bigger picture in mind. Why are we in Iraq? How does this relate to our fight on Terror? How does this relate to apprehending or killing Osama Bin Laudin? How does this relate to our standing in the world community?
Our fight in Iraq has diminished our standing worldwide and this can be seen the most easily by noticing the difference between the coalition created in the Gulf War vs the Iraq War.
How can we expect McCain to lead us if he can’t see the big picture? He’s stuck in the trenches.
The debate did not change anything for me. I am still voting for Barack Obama. I am usually a Republican voter, but I am tired of excuses for the Iraq war and I want us out of there and to start taking care of business in this country. It was a mistake from the get-go and I hope Obama stays with his notion to stop the war. I don’t even want a war in Afghanistan, just bring everybody home, and fight the war on terror like the terrorists do – covertly. I am sick of war. How can we supply money to the financial crisis and fight wars and do everything else we need to do here? We can’t. Something has got to give. Sometimes I think we should just let the banks and the big money business fail, and just start from scratch. We are holding up the world and we can afford it. I paid for my house and my bills, now I have to pay for everybody elses and it is not right. They should all be in jail.
A correction on my earlier post. I meant to say we are holding up the world and we CAN’T afford it, not we can afford it. We sureley can’t afford any of this mess we are in.
Coming into the debate as an undecided voter, it seemed to me that the first 40 minutes, when the discussion turned to the economy, McCain was not very clear. He used several old lines from previous speeches and I found myself completing his sentences. Obama was much very concise and very direct with his answers.
Once it truly turned to Foreign Policy, Iraq and the “War on Terror”, McCain seemed to pick up steam. You could tell he was out of his element on the Economy. I would give them a tie on Iraq – Obama was right for not wanting to go in and McCain that the surge has worked. However, I personally feel that the Iraq War has given us a “black-eye” and the rest of the world does not have the respect they once did for America.
Finally, I was surprised that Obama was very clear on other foreign policy matters. Once again he had very clear answers and had a much better grasp on the issues than I expected. To me, his policy is much more engaging than what we’ve seen over the last 8 years and what McCain offers.
My very Republican girlfriend has decided to vote for Obama and after last night, I’m more inclined to as well.
That was no tie! Obama not only held his own against the elderly McCain but showed himself to be more intellectually capable, more fluent, and much more gracious than the crotchety geezer, who raised the specter of his gal pal running mate when he referred to not winning Miss Congeniality. Those references were particularly awkward.
Obama ate McCain’s breakfast at the debates, and if McCain isn’t careful, Obama will eat his lunch and dinner at the coming debates. McCain is a fossil, his war stories are irrelevant.
While McCain had prepared an entire case against Obama, perhaps Obama did successfully diffuse them with his simple asides pointing out the absurdity of McCain the foreign policy reality.
Perhaps it was pointing out that McCain wasn’t aware of any history of animosity between the Shiiah and the Sunni. Personally, I would have tied McCain’s lack of understanding of the sectarian dynamics of Iraq to McCain’s lack of understanding of the tenuousness of the benefits of the surge- of how the political reconciliation it was intended to facillitate has yet to pass, how Kirkuk remains a flashpoint, how the Anbar Awakening arose before the surge (which McCain has also gotten wrong), how Iran is the actual victor of the Iraq war. How Pakistan wasn’t a failed state before Musharef.
How Iraq and Pakistan share no border.
How McCain most likely misled Saakashvilli into Russia’s trap.
But perhaps Obama saw danger in making that case. Perhaps it would have been impolitic, as he would have seemed condescending towards McCain.
Still, it would have been worth stating these truths in a public forum.
I still don’t understand why McCain never looked at Obama once the entire debate. Is he some kind of angry child who takes this all personally?
Obama could have mentioned the “shill” performance in Bagdad with 100 military
guards and ‘choppers overhead. The vendors smiled and Graham bought a scarf and boasted about how safe it was.. only the next day many of the vendors and shoppers were killed and wounded by theinsurgent bombings that still are rampant in Bagdad.
And when McCain bragged about his concern for veterans, Obama could have listed the many bills McCain voted against that were favorable for veterans and their families and also the GI educational support for veterans. McCain showed how much he cared for Sarah Pallin and how little he valued the American voter. He sure got even with us.
you can vote for someone who has dedicated his life to this country, or you can vote for someone WHO HAS NEVER SACRIFICED ANYTHING FOR THIS COUNTRY.
**************************************** *
Mr. Cohen: I would call working for 3 years as a community organizer–after graduation from Harvard Law and PRESIDENT of the Law Review (educated people know this is about the highest achievement possible at Harvard Law), when he could have had his pick of the top law firms in the country–a sacrifice for the PEOPLE of this country. Maybe he never had the opportunity to be a POW…but sacrifice comes in many ways.
I think it’s so ridiculous that Palin’s comparison to her time as mayor of Wasilla to Obama’s time as a community organizer has stuck…when Obama was sacrificing BIG BUCKS for community work, Sarah Palin was working as a sportscaster for a local TV station. When she was mayor of a town of 5000, Obama was a State Senator with a large constituency.
I considered voting for John McCain, because he seemed like the first Republican I could trust to stand up for what is right. That view of him has gone out the window, starting with the Republican convention. His campaign and his actions during the campaign really have been more of the same. Obama has earned my vote.
oops…
Sorry, Obama worked as a community organizer before Harvard. Still, he had graduated from Columbia University, a prestigious school, and could have done many other things that would have paid better.
As embarrassing as it is, I believe in admitting my mistakes. If John McCain would say it was a mistake to go to Iraq, it would go a long way toward restoring his honor in my book.
Obama won. McCain has to make everything into war and that is why he didn’t look at Obama. He hates Obama. he’s the enemy. Also, I think he doesn’t mind black people waiting on him but living in the white house? not so much.
I live in Alaska. If you want a bush-style vp, palin is for you. She made rape victims pay for their rape kits until the state outlawed that practice. She is a liar, a religious nut with anti-semitic views and she thinks humans and dinosaurs lived together at the same time.
If you are a total asshat, if you don’t like reality, if you are STUPID, Palin is your gal.
am puzzled anyone thought McCain even tied – he was factually incorrect: Pakistan was not a failed state, it was a democracy — Obama said that, given credible evidence and an actionable target he would fire on the Taliban/AlQueda terrorists who are firing on American soldiers from sites at the Pakistani border – He did not, as did senator McCain, sing a song about happily bombing their country, – what nation can deal with McCain as a serious leader after that?If McCain is horrified re Iran’s description of Israel, how must the struggling, literate moderate faction in Iran feel when they see him singing bomb, bomb,bomb Iran? No wonder they have amped up their arms capability – Thousands of civilians died in Iraq – surely Iranians were thinking of that as the video of his song played – WHAT AN IDIOT – he’s all yours ben adler
I missed the debate, which I’m a little disappointed about, and as such have been attempting to get a feel for how it went w/o sitting through ninety minutes.
I’ve noticed something very interesting about this. Almost every news outlet and pundit have declared the debate a tie, while every poll I’ve looked at has Obama as the winner. I feel it is safe to disregard claims that the debate was a tie, when they come from sources which have a vested interest in keeping public perception of the race as close.
Mind you, I’m looking at ‘winning the debate’ to mean who’s going to get more votes as a result of the debate, so your mileage may vary.
It is truly a shame to keep hearing many Republicans refer to McCain as a hero. He is not a hero and should be called on his use of the word. He lied many times over the years about his treatment in the POW Camp. Most Veterans do not like this man and some who served during the Vietnam War dispute many of McCain’s claims. He has mastered in telling lies and embellished war stories. He actually believes these stories because he as told them many times. He is a habitual lier to say the least. His accounts on world leaders and events are usually inaccurate or false, he gets confused alot when asked pointed questions. Often times when he is asked to explain something he does not really know or understand, he would quickly start telling stories in an ill attempt to take the listeners down a fairy tale lane to take the attention off his lack of intelligence. He was and still is very uneducated and insecure when confronted head on. This is not the manner inwhich a President in waiting should be conducting himself. If he is elected to this high office, America will forever be the laughing stock of the entire world. McCain is stuck back in a time wharp and still thinks the world will roll over and let America play dictator. It’s a new world and foreign leaders are more polished and tested to play in the new play ground. McCain is not suited to conduct business on behalf of America in a world where he does not know how to Speak effectively or Respectfully to others. John Wayne, Ronald Regean and Roy Rogers are all dead. There are no more Tuff Cowboys left. The next war will be an intellectual war and McCain is out of his league if he thinks he can function on this new turf. McCain would have benefited from a Real College Education after returning from war. Instead he ran to political office to try an live up to a false image some gave him about being a Real American Hero;and he has been on the tax payers payroll for disability and congressional salary, plus benefits ever since.
Senator McCain’s body language was SCREAMING his distaste for Senator Obama at the debate. His refusal to look Senator Obama in the eyes showed a complete lack of respect, even regard for him as a person. It was totally tactless, incredibly rude behavior that was not in any way presidential.
It is truly sad that Senator McCain seems even now to be totally unaware of just how loudly his behavior was speaking. Does he really think he was hiding his feelings, when they were quite obviously on display for all to see?
Would this type of behavior go over well with world leaders and other foreign dignitaries? I think not, as his pompous attitude would be completely embarassing for the USA.
I ask all of you to consider what you would do to any of your children or grandchildren if they behaved in a similar manner as Senator McCain? Mine would have been reprimanded and we would have revisited a few rules of basic etiquette.
Since Senator McCain feels that much disdain for a fellow member of the U.S. Senate, I wonder how he truly feels about me as a simple U.S. citizen?
I guess I already know, as he never speaks of me, nor for me.
I am a proud member of the middle class who will NOW be voting for OBAMA BIDEN 08.
“That is a subjective comment and has no place in straight news.”
This coming from someone who watches Fox “News”.
Its not the Pundits nor the parties that decide who WON the debate. Its the american voters. I dont understand how Senator McCain can say it was a tie/win when the polls say the voters (the ones who matter) say Senator Obama won.
Reading all this, I’m surprised how much this whole thing has come down to a popularity contest. Let me put this simply, McCain’s service does not equal leadership qualities. One does have to have a reasonable bit of constitution to be leadership material, but I find these to be the most important. Please note that they have nothing to do with any of the ‘issues’. A leader must be reasonably knowledgeable, be able to use people well, and be able to allocate resources wisely. For the details and nit-picky policy things, they have their advisers. Out of all this, Obama has impressed me with his organization, the quality of this campaign and his ability to select advisers who are both effective and loyal to his platform. This is even more impressive because he built his campaign from almost nothing. Even if you don’t agree with Obama’s stances, if what he is doing right now is any indication, he has proven to me that we will have a stable and well run government with him at the head. No frills, but no major problems either.
No, a tie means he tied, in a debate he was expected to win.
McCain has been complaining a lot about his press coverage, but he is starting to seem like a whiner. Also, he should lay off the “you just don’t get it” line. Nobody wants to hear that.
Obama was intelligent and exceedingly gracious, which the more bellicose among us may misinterpret as something else.
Obama gave McCain a pass on a number of items such as not going after McCain’s hypocrisy on benefits for vets, his flat out lies about middle class tax cuts, Palin’s earmarks (highest per capita in the country), bridge to nowhere, campaign manager’s $2 Million in lobbyist fees, and so forth.
Not to the trolls here, of course, but that presidential demeanor will go along way to make up for the past 7+ years.
YOU’RE AFRAID OBAMA WOULD MUCK UP FOREIGN POLICY.
HOLD ON. McCain is coming to rescue you them. I PRAY, YOU’RE
UNDER 35 YEARS OLD. McCain
McCain SAID HE WOULD START THE ***DRAFT*** AND HE WILL.
MEN AND WOMEN WILL BE DRAFTED UNDER 35, FOR HIS WARS IN
RUSSIA AND IRAN!
GOOD LUCK TO YOU LAMEBRAINS!! YOU DESERVE WHAT YOU GET, AND
YOU’LL GET, JUST WHAT YOU DESERVE WITH MCCAIN!! THE
DRAFT,
MORE WARS, MORE MONEY AND MORE THAN AN $11 TRILLION
DOLLAR DEFECEIT! ANYONE WHO VOTED FOR BUSH, ESPECIALLY
IN 2004, SHOULD HAVE ALL THEIR VOTING RIGHTS TAKEN AWAY!!
THIS IS THE G.O.P. ECONOMY, STUPID!
“Obama presidential? He kept referring to his opponent by his first name “John” constantly – yet no one in the media noted it. If McCain would’ve said something like, “Now Barack, you know that’s not correct” – the media and bloggers would be up in arms about “lack of respect” – it was universally a tie – not sure what websites you’ve been looking at – the DNC’s site? CBS News? MSNBC? Yes, those are bastions of impartiality aren’t they?”
You really had to dig deep for that one. Of course he called him “John” — they’re colleagues in the Senate. If McCain had addressed him directly at all, let alone by “Barack” no one would have thought anything of it. Face it, McCain looked like the hot-headed, surly old coot he is. Obama is a candidate for the presidency as much as McCain is (much to the disdain of the McCain camp). McCain showing some respect would have reflected more on McCain than on Obama, just as his contempt showed what a mean-spirited codger he is.
… and besides — is this how McCain is going to conduct diplomacy with leaders of other countries whom he happens not to like? Goodbye superpower, hello second world…
I hope that McCain thinks he won the debate, because then he will keep using the same ridiculous tactics that repelled independent voters 2-1 on Friday.
After the discussions and recaps, voters will be looking even harder to see if McCain can bring himself to look at his opponent. He is in grave danger of adopting the Dick Cheney snarl if he doesn’t watch out.
As for who won, Gallup gave Obama a +3 bump on the tracking polls to lead 50-42. If that is winning, John, you should see losing!
I would love to be at the town hall meeting just to ask McCain why did he collaberate with his captors while a p.o.w. in Hanoi? Just google John McCain p.o.w. songbird.
Am I the only one who has noticed that comments from McCain’s supporters tend to be rude and insulting. It it their right to oppose, 100%, but why the hate and anger?
McCain lost this debate and lost badly considering foreign policy was supposedly his strong suit. He was angry, he couldn’t look his opponent in the eye, he kept mixing up the facts, he plain lied, he tried to diminish his opponent instead of providing arguments to support his own position, and he just didn’t look like he thought through the details of anything he was proposing. And I guess I expect way more from a presidential candidate. It was also funny how he described himself as a maverick (which no real maverick would ever do unless he was only pretending to be one).
Someone please tell me what is up with Mcshame and his little nick name “Maverick” What is he a little kidd or what. I’m a Maverick. Ya thats right. What does he think hes a Super Hero? Picture Mcshame in leotards and a cape. Is that his online name or something, oh wait he doesn’t even know how to turn on a computer. As he is having flaskbacks of getting his rear-end owned and shot down.
They don’t give you medals and call you an ACE for getting shot down. He was a POW because he was a better target than a Fighter Pilot.
McCain is mired in the past – I’m almost as old as he is – and had many friends who lost their lives in Nam. It was a senseless war we could never win, and we can’t “win” in Iraq – surge or no surge. It’s up the the Iraqi people now. If we’re winning, as McCain says, why are people still dying daily (ours and theirs) and why don’t we have an end-game. Sorry, but I’ve lived through this nightmare before and we need to elect Obama and change the direction of our country.
This is sad. I don’t think either really won the debate, it was the same old boring rhetoric I’ve heard for years. Yet, sometimes I wonder about the balance of these forums because I believe that more conservatively minded people often times don’t lambaste peoples of differing ideology because we’re too busy working, learning, and subsequently making more money than most of you whiners. GO GET A REAL DEGREE AND A JOB! VOTE: McCain/Palin *BTW I was on here, not to yell initially, but checking recent commodity prices b/c I worked hard and now have a stake in those “evil corporations”…
Benjamin Alper, nice try. You said, “Did no-one hear him say, for example, that if Pakistan did not crack down on militants and help (or something like that) that he would just ‘let them have it.’” I taped the debate and can’t seem to find the quote you’re referring to or anything like it. Maybe, you should stop listening to the trolls in your ear. They can make you crazy.
I am not surprised that the media is calling this a tie. It is now abundantly clear that the media is in the sack with B.Hussein Obama. This was not even close and I think that people who watched know this to be true. McCain was by far the winner. It was like watching a scared boy getting schooled by a seasoned professional. Obama is a slick talker and liar. He has known terrorist ties. This morning more information was revealed regarding his ties to Bill Ayers. It is only a matter of time before Obama is exposed as the fraud he is. He has covered his tracks well, but I believe that good will prevail. We cannot afford to have this pinhead in the Whitehouse!
They both did better than I thought they would. Obama may have won the debate but they both still FAIL as good candidates. Picking the best of the worst OR picking one candidate because the other TERRIFIES you is not real politics. It is Political Slavery. If you want better candidates and you have a brain we would love to have you join us at politicalslavery.com
It’s the bottom of the 9th, 2 out, and the Republican team, down by 5 runs, needs a home run. McCain, their best hitter, unfortunately can only manage to hit a single. And on deck, is their weakest hitter on the team.
I can not believe when McCain said that 3 milion spending on studying Bear DNA might be a criminal issue. But spending 10 billion each month in Irag’s soil killing Iragis and american troops is not criminal? So, This guy wants to spend money on more killings and war but freeze spending on science and technology. Do American people really want that kind of future for their country. I don’t think so. They are smarter than we think except McCain palin supporters.
I also noted McCain’s obvious disdain for Obama during the debate – His lack of eye contact or even looking at the man when he was speaking to Obama, I believe, was a form of behavior used to intimidate Barack, to make him feel less of a human being. Maybe McCain learned this while a POW. This behavior has no place on U.S. soil when debating in front of the American people – that McCain had to use this tactic (along with his shaking his head as if “hopeless” or “what an idiot” or “how much more of this man can I take before I walk over and nail him??” was a sign of weakness – I am sure this psychological approach was discussed beforehead. McCaint isn’t the man for the job of President – he has no manners.
McCain lost the debate and insulted North Koreans for being too short by his standard of “height”! McCain was nasty,so yesterday and kept imploring for a Reagan second coming…
My comment is regarding McCain’s inability to look at Obama or address him directly. That should definitely be part of the commentary. What does that say about him? What does is say about how he would deal with those he finds difficult? Will he just look the other way? What a way to communicate. It was a picture that spoke volumes!! Of course he won’t have a dialogue with Ahmadinejad (or anyone else who presents a challenge). After all, didn’t we just watch him try to not have a dialogue with Obama? And regarding all that Kissinger repartee, I agree with Maureen Dowd – “who care’s what Henry Kissinger thinks? He was wrong 35 years ago, and it’s only gotten worse since then.”
Both did well, and got in their say! Mccain doesn’t feel confortable saying barack. It makes it to familier. it’s fine Obama says John. all of you get off the nogan here! the problem with this debate, is it wasn’t a debate!Mccain could not talk with Obama at all! He indicates with his behavior he feels he is above Obama! He also snickers,smirks,laughs and whispers to himself when obama is speaking. this is not presidential! this would not be exceptablespeaking to any nations leaders! this is why Obama won this debate. Had nothing to do with substance or how they ans./ Mccain did well in substance and held his own, but his behaviors destracted the best of us trying to focus on what was being said! This could have been mccains debate! He did it to himself!
Oh, just to let you know I am a republican, and I have decided to vote for Obama/Biden. I’m a woman and I can’t even give Mccain a pass on picking Palin for his V.P. so rather I thought Mccain did wonderful or real Bad does not matter! I have seen all I want of Mrs. Palin, and she is not V.P material. You can’t call me sexist, because I’m a woman! You can’t call me racist, because we have all nationality’s mixed in my family! It’s a simple fact that Mccain is not a maverick any more and these aren’t moves of a true maverick. This pick was wreckless and endangers America, and or that I cannot forgive John Mccain!
I also noted McCain’s obvious disdain for Obama during the debate – His lack of eye contact or even looking at the man when he was speaking to Obama, I believe, was a form of behavior used to intimidate Barack, to make him feel less of a human being. Maybe McCain learned this while a POW.
This behavior has no place on U.S. soil when debating in front of the American people – that McCain had to use this tactic (along with his shaking his head as if \”hopeless\” or \”what an idiot\” or \”how much more of this man can I take before I walk over and nail him??\” was a sign of weakness – I am sure this psychological approach was discussed beforehead.
McCaint isn\’t the man for the job of President – he has no manners.
John McCain has been STEALING Sen. Barack Obama’s concepts and presenting them as his own, particularly the “Change” theme of the campaign.
It’s imperative for sensible Americans who care for their country to waste no more time in recognizing that McCain is a chronic liar and a first-class flip flopper.
In his 2002 book “Worth the Fighting For,” McCain unabashedly states the following, although in this campaign is singing a different tune when he is running for president.
“I didn’t decide to run for president to start a national crusade for the political reforms I believed in or to run a campaign as if it were some grand act of patriotism. In truth, I wanted to be president because it had become my ambition to be president. I was sixty-two years old when I made the decisions and I thought it was my one shot at the prize.”
God help America!
To Paulette, Benjamin a Democrat who unfortunately is showing how racist he is and to all of the McCainiacs:
We are all entitled to our opinions. Some of us like Obama; Some of us like McCain. It is not necessary to lie on or put down the obvious brilliance of one you do not care for. To say Obama is nothing more than a pretty face shows how insecure you are because it is obvious that Senator Obama showed his thorough knowledge of Foreign Policy and stood toe to toe to McCain on all fronts. Find another excuse to explain your racism, but it’s not necessary to insult this man simply because he is all that and more! Who was it that suspended his campaign and got angry when his opponent wouldn’t go along with such nonsense?
So the only complaint is that Obama called his opponent John? Isn’t that his real name?
On CNN today, they reported that Obama won the debates in polls by nearly 10 points, but had a qualification that the poll only included people that actually WATCHED the debates. So I guess that for all of you who DIDN’T watch the debates, McCain probably won. That seems to fit Republican logic.
Martin Gayle, I’m so sorry that you are one of those sad saps that still believes Obama has terrorist ties. If you believe that, I’ve got a bridge to nowhere to sell to you!